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We need politicians with vision

One of the things that bothers me about the current Australian government is lack of vision, lack of the ability to think outside the square or to challenge the status quo.

I’m going to illustrate with an example built around our health system (on which I have written voluminously lately), the horrific domestic violence record in this country, auto-immune conditions and food.

A little background to set the scene. As you may know I am learning the ropes of living with a chronic illness. Trust me, it isn’t as easy or simple as seeing a specialist who gives you a prescription and reviews you once a year. Partly as a result of my own personal experience, I got involved in the Medicare changes debate, while also following research about food and chronic illness. I watch as the Minister for Women remains silent on the continuing violence against women in this country and noticed the financial cost of family violence to the nation.

I see links between all of these, yet I don’t see our politicians acknowledging any connections at all, much less driving any investigations or research. They are much too busy restricting our freedoms, completely contradicting their pre-election stance on the question of individual freedoms.

As a starting point, let’s look at one of the findings from my Medicare analysis. Readers may remember this graph from an earlier article.

PopulationServices

This graph compares the number of primary care medical services to the population by gender and by age bracket. What is this telling us? It is telling us women between the ages of twenty-five and seventy-four are the highest users of our primary care medical services. To read about this in the broader context of our health system costs, read Medicare is not the problem. For now, I am only interested in the disproportionate need for medical services of the adult female population and what factors may be driving this. If we could reduce this demand, we’d not only have healthy women, we’d save tax dollars. We can take into account prescriptions for the contraceptive pill as being gender specific, but that is not twelve visits a year. Not all women attend an obstetrician for pregnancy and child-birth, so we can allow a few visits from some women for obstetrics reasons as well. Neither of those gender specific medical needs explain the graph. Edit: After publication I was reminded by a doctor of the reluctance of men to seek medical help as pro-actively as they should, which contributes to the gender differences above. This is a factor that should be considered when considering introducing value signals financial barriers to early detection.

Family violence is estimated to cost Australia $16.2 billion. If domestic violence was eradicated from the community, the health costs for women would drop accordingly. Not all of the $16.2 billion are health costs, but they are costs that are considered to flow from domestic violence crimes. If we eradicate domestic violence, not only do we save lives and families, we have $16.2 billion to put towards unavoidable health costs. We also reduce the demand for health service resources, allowing deployment to alternative health areas.

Violence is more damaging to the health of Victorian women aged 15–44 years than any other well-known risk factors, including high blood pressure, obesity and smoking.

Source: VicHealth

At least one of my medical conditions is an auto-immune condition. There is considerable research being undertaken into the increase in incidence of auto-immune diseases. Many of the auto-immune diseases affect predominantly women: seven out of eight suffers of systemic lupus, for example, are women. Auto-immune diseases are one of the top ten causes of death of females aged up to sixty-four.

Sexratio
We have increasing incidence plus a predominance of women: the graph above starts to look more realistic now, doesn’t it? Many of the auto-immune conditions can take some time to diagnose, requiring more visits. As our testing technology improves, so we are able to diagnose some conditions more promptly than in years gone by, but that doesn’t apply to all conditions. For some conditions there are no simple or single positive or negative tests and diagnosis can take time. Even once diagnosed, establishing the correct treatment regime can take quite a while. I’ve been to both my GP and my rheumatologist so far this week, dosages and drugs will be tweaked in another three weeks. It isn’t a perfect science.

We need to be investing into research to find out why the incidence of auto-immune conditions is increasing. That will have long term benefits: improved health and reduced health care costs. There may be no solution to the gender bias, but if we understand the gender connection, we may be able to manage it.

One possible cause of the increase is the food we eat, which I looked at in some detail yesterday in The dose makes the poison. There is work currently being done looking at the relationship between gut bacteria and rheumatoid arthritis. That article also talks about a possible link between asthma and bacteria.

Some research indicates that the bacteria may reduce the risk of asthma, perhaps by curtailing the body’s immune response to airborne stimuli. Blaser suspects that asthma is one of the illnesses affected by our changing microbiome: Rates in the U.S. have been climbing for three decades, and grew by more than 28 percent between 2001 and 2011.

Restaurant Dessert Tray

Yet we happily continue to ingest food that has been processed and modified to excess. I was actually surprised at the low interest shown in yesterday’s article. Do we not want to face the fact we could be poisoning ourselves, or effectively altering our bodies’ natural functions? Is this too confronting in our fast-paced world where flying through the supermarket to grab a TV dinner is the only way we can find time to hit the gym?

The oft-cited reasoning around additives that are KNOWN to be toxic is something along the lines of “in small does it is OK”. Perhaps we could make that “ALONE in small doses”. The levels of toxicity we are exposed to in 2015 in just getting from home to work is nothing like it was in 1815. Way, way higher. A little bit of toxicity in your drink, a little more in your pre-packaged pudding and what is in your toothpaste and nail polish that is being absorbed by your body? What are the possible long term effects on the human body of an accumulation of these approved small doses of toxicity in combination with each other and/or external toxins we are exposed to daily such as carbon monoxide? Or even just some human bodies if some of us are immune (or just tougher).

I’ve written before about the relationship between stress and AI conditions. Perhaps we are reducing our body’s ability to deal with stress effectively. The possibilities are endless.

80% of auto-immune condition sufferers can describe a major stressful event in their lives prior to the onset of the condition. While a causal link is yet to be established, it is definitely worth the research being undertaken. Maybe our food reduces our body’s ability to process stress (perhaps in conjunction with our social constraints) or these toxins directly change our immune systems in some way.

These are only the few correlations I have considered over the last month. There are many more. What I don’t see is a government with vision, a government looking to enable investigation of these correlations. I see a government who doesn’t appoint a Science Minister, a government that guts our CSIRO and is now attempting to make changes to our universal health system that are neither sensible nor substantiated. A government who is looking in the wrong place for dollars and a Minister for Women who ignores the domestic violence epidemic.

Our politicians need to open their eyes. For all our sakes. We, the voting public, need to support our scientists and medical researchers to get the message across. Don’t leave it to the experts to battle on alone: it is YOUR body!

If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual assault or family violence, call 1800RESPECT on 1800 737 732 or visit http://www.1800RESPECT.org.au. In an emergency, call 000

This article was originally published on Robyn’s blog, Love versus Goliath.

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34 comments

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  1. Lee

    My best wishes to you Robyn for your treatment.

    Also inflating the stats for women – pap smears and referrals for mammograms, plus extra visits if those results are abnormal.

  2. mikestasse

    Politicians don’t do ‘vision’ anymore……. they work for their corporatocracy bosses.

  3. Blanik

    Interesting essay Robyn.

    However, may I point out that family/domestic violence is not solely committed against females, Government ministers and other agencies are equally silent concerning violence against men by their female partners. Again, you display the bias against men.

    To any men who are victim of domestic violence yourself and/or your children don’t bother contacting any of the Help Lines, RESPECT or otherwise. All they will do is ask you what you do to provoke your female partner and give you a patronising lecture about male violence. I did it for many years and eventually left my wife after our GP advised me too leave before I was killed. I almost was.

    I left and gained custody of my two daughters, who are now mothers of adult children of their own. We still discuss the horrors of their childhood.

    There will be people here who will not “think beyond the square” will condemn my post. So I shan’t return to read their theoretical comments which simply annoy me, as they clearly have no perception of domestic violence.

    I do hope that this form of terrorism is handled one day, without the bias against men. Thank you for raising the topic.

  4. iggy648

    Hi Robyn. How would you reconcile the statement in the 2003 statistics that 98% of perpetrators are men with the US study that showed that in the 18-28 age group, 70% of perpetrators are women? http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020
    Are young American women becoming more like men?

  5. townsvilleblog

    Beautifully written and illustrated Robyn.

  6. townsvilleblog

    iggy648 Which America are you referring to North or South or both?

  7. Robyn Oyeniyi

    Blanik, I am sorry you feel I excluded men. The focus of this article was not family violence per se and I am aware there are female perpetrators and male victims. I certainly don’t condemn you raising this issue at all. If I do specifically write about family violence, you can be assured I will write about male victims as well.

  8. Lee

    Blanik, yes there are some men who are victims of domestic violence. But they’re having far less visits to a doctor than women are, aren’t they? Robyn is not biased. She is simply commenting on the data. The fact is, female victims of DV outnumber male victims.

  9. Robyn Oyeniyi

    Lee, we don’t need a referral for a mammogram over a certain age in Victoria (not sure about the rest of the country) and I put pap smears and mammograms in that preventative category where there are male checks that should be done on a regular basis as well.

  10. Robyn Oyeniyi

    Iggy648 I am not looking at American statistics at all and as I mentioned to Blanik, the focus of this article is not family violence, but political vision. So I will not be attempting to reconcile USA studies in the context of this article.

  11. stephentardrew

    Ah Robin that science thing is such a nuisance so lets just kill it off.

    Welcome to the land of fairies at the bottom of the garden.

  12. Robyn Oyeniyi

    LOL Stephen! You’ve brought a smile to my face with that one! Yes, such a bother, those pesky scientists! I’ve been saying that Abbott et al should give up flying, using mobile phones, riding in cars, watching TV….. think of the saving to the planet if they stopped using electricity!

  13. Lee

    There would be an even bigger saving if they stopped using oxygen.

  14. Sir ScotchMistery

    Robyn, well done.

    Just think for one second what would happen if instead of looking for politicians with vision, we look for an electorate with vision. How do you reckon that would look?

    Imagine just for one moment what would be the difference if somebody said “what we need is somebody representing us who actually does represent us”, and instead of the response “well then you should be voting ALP”, and instead we looked at the process of putting an independent in for every electorate that wasn’t absolutely died in the wool, rusted on liberal or ALP.

    The electorate of Indi showed that it can be done, when they throughout the recent attachment to the board for ASC because she’d forgotten who had put her into the Parliament.

    The idea of voting for independence is not anathema to all Australians. It is anathema to conservatives who don’t have the vision to see beyond lunchtime the next day, as is proven by their incapacity to do a budget in the Parliament, but unfortunately the ALP isn’t that much different in terms of its being beholden to big business for its finances.

    The electors of Indi raise enough money to put up a very good showing at the election in 2013 with only 3000 people putting together a process which now has a whole electorate being represented properly in Parliament instead of the prior situation where the only person/party represented by Ms Mirabella was the LNP, and as far as her electors were concerned she wasn’t doing that very well.

    The thing we have to find a way around is this idea where as soon as you say the word “independent”, a matter where you are the, the first response you get is “you don’t have a chance”.

    The one thing that should be kept in mind, is that in Indi the candidate did not stand up, the electorate did.

  15. iggy648

    Blanik beat me by one minute. But I’m nevertheless interested in whether anyone has opinions about why young American (United Statesian for people from Townsville who can’t be bothered to click on the link) women are different. It might give us some insights into how to make changes. Or is it just that our statistics collection is poor. (To simplify in order to exaggerate: “Let’s collect data on people who enter women’s refuges. That’s funny, they’re mostly women!”)

  16. donwreford

    The vision of our politicians is to undermine the opposition, this culture is now entrenched, the last man with a vision was Whitlam, I am not saying he was perfect but the CIA and MI6, decided he was out, Australia is owned by oversea investors and the population are the caretakers to ensure the roads, ports are able to transport our wealth to overseas, and paid by the taxpayer, our politicians are for oversea investors as Abbott said, we are open for overseas to exploit us, and whilst we get our submarines from Japan and planes from America and the population pays for this military expenditure, as Keating said we are a banana republic, all of our politicians are out for themselves financially and pop star status.

  17. Lee

    Iggy648, first of all the article you cited is pay per view, so probably most of us cannot access it. Secondly, your question has nothing to do with this article. If you want to discuss domestic violence in the American population, please write your own article instead of hijacking Robyn’s work.

  18. Win jeavons

    I agree Robyn. I have said for years that we MUST have vision in our politics, that linear prediction will lead us astray, as the ‘known unknowns and unknown unknowns’ impact on us all. If climate change on a local scale caused the mass deaths of the plague what might global change cause? Who, 20 years ago foresaw the bloody behaviour of the Middle East , and the way it is now being used to curtail freedoms we believed eternal. Who could see how the collapse of Communism would lead to a Western oligarchy, or the sheer thievery of that once esteemed institution , the bank ? We need a new way of living, that devalues the almighty dollar and promotes true human values. I’m sure others have many other visions for a genuinely sustainable future for our planet.

  19. PaulS

    First a disclaimer, I am also a male that was abused by a female.
    I have no idea what the real statistics are but I know from my own experience that whenever I tried to get help from the Police she would put on an oscar winning performance and they believed it was me doing the violence, So two or three times a week it would be another report of a man bashing a woman. Eventually a female officer asked the kids what was happening and slowly the police became my allies. They told me I needed to get an intervention order which I tried to do but every time it went to court she would turn up and the judge would not grant the order. The same judge ordered me to attend a male anti violence support group, about half the men there were violent to their partner and the other half were on the recieving end. It was a very strange support group.
    It all worked out in the end, she left home because the kids and I were cramping her party lifestyle, I met a new partner and she was subjected to abuse both physical and verbal, slashed tyres, windows broken etc. and she was able to get an intervention order against my ex. Finally on the day that the order was granted we walked out of the court and to celebrate went to a little Cafe a couple of blocks away, we had been followed though and the ex proceded to trash the Cafe believing she was still police proof, she wasn’t.
    And sorry Robyn in joining in the hijacking of your excellent post, violence, any violence really upsets me.

  20. Lee

    Did anyone watch 4 Corners on Monday evening? It focused on the criminal activities of the job network/ employment service (ES) system and how it fails to provide assistance to job seekers. There was an unemployed woman interviewed, who lived in Elizabeth, SA. Her employment service has not sent her to a job interview in 2.5 years. She has been ‘parked’, a common practice when such service providers consider that the job seeker will consume too many of their resources if they help that person to find work. The woman has also had her unemployment benefits cut off for allegedly not attending meetings with the ES, but investigation revealed that the ES was actually at fault for failing to submit paperwork. We’re not told why this woman has been parked. She is one of five children and her parents separated around the time of her birth. Perhaps like many children in this situation she was raised in poverty and her mother could not afford to provide a good education. Or if she has a learning disability, perhaps her mother was unable to afford extra tutoring for her. Whatever the reason for being parked, this woman wants to work and is devastated by her inability to find work. I was unaware until this show went to air, that Elizabeth has the highest rate of unemployment in Australia.

    At Joseph Stiglitz’s lecture last year “The Price of Inequality’, he said that students from an impoverished background who are assisted with university fees frequently withdraw from their studies within the first year. They have missed too much of the important education in their younger years and so they lack the foundation to cope with university. The government needs to invest in primary education but our government is cutting funds.

    I have a friend who is a teacher at a high school in Elizabeth, SA. Many of the children come from single parent families and the rate of absenteeism is quite high. I have another friend teaching in a low socio-economic area in Perth and she tells me of similar experiences at her school. Often there is little support forthcoming when the school approaches the parents. My friend quoted some stats to me. By the time they reach year 10, some of those kids have missed 2.5 years of schooling. They are destined for long term unemployment. Some are probably also destined for prison.

    These kids are being caught up in a bad situation that is none of their fault and they will pay the penalty for that for the rest of their lives. They are destined to remain unemployable, perhaps even subjecting their own children to the same experiences as they are growing up. We need a government that is committed to providing a good foundation education for all children, and especially to children with learning disabilities. The children from single parent and impoverished families deserve an education just as much as the children from wealthy families. We need a government that is willing to tackle the social problems that contribute to high rates of absenteeism from schools. We need a government that also provides employment for people of diminished capabilities. A lack of education should not preclude them from being a valuable and contributing member of society. Nor should many physical disabilities. They can do something, many of them want to do something and our society and economy will be so much better off if they have employment for a living wage.

  21. iggy648

    Lee, the article might be pay per view, but the results are clearly outlined in the abstract. I’m really interested in why American women have (apparently) been substantially empowered. I also think Robyn’s article was excellent, but I’ll leave it up to the moderator to delete me if she thinks my contributions are not relevant. I was hoping that someone else would point out what to me is the bleeding obvious. The Australian statistic (98% of perpetrators are men) is garbage. It reflects both how we collect data and probably how we respond. We count people presenting in hospitals, police stations and refuges, and conclude that nearly all victims are women. We then arrest the perpetrators, separate them from their families, fine them, put them in gaol etc. Then what? They get out and it all starts over again. To my knowledge, this process has been going on for the last 30 years, and nothing has changed. The American study talks to people in their homes, and gets both sides of the story. And, in my opinion, this is where intervention should start. Both men and women should be encouraged to seek help at the earliest possible time to help resolve conflicts. This ain’t gonna happen, as long as we all keep referring to men involved in domestic disputes as cowards and bullies, deserving only punishment, and not help. We need to invite men to come in from the cold and get help.

  22. Robyn Oyeniyi

    Thank you Sir ScotchMistery. I have a feeling that your idea may be difficult to achieve in practice. One of those ideals we can all aspire to, but is it achievable? Could a HOR full of Indi reps function? Probably, but human nature may have evolve a little first. Yes, we do get some independents elected, but a whole house full? I think we are a few years away from that.

  23. Robyn Oyeniyi

    LOL

  24. Robyn Oyeniyi

    Win, sadly donwreford sums it up. The vision of our politicians is to undermine the opposition. That is all the primary objective seems to be. Very sad.

  25. Blanik

    I knew that I shouldn’t have come back.

    Lee points out that there are more women visit the doctor than men. This is the very bias that I get angry about. Men don’t go to the doctor, Lee unless they a very severely injured. Men don’t go to police or doctors because they are always considered the attacker. I know that you agree with them, but it just isn’t true

    I was in hospital unconscious for ten hours, simply because my parents walked in and found me on the floor. They called the ambulance. I was unconscious because my wife tried to screw a neighbour in one of her drunken ‘episodes” is what they call it when women are the cooperators. My daughters were hurt in places that I would never look. They told me about it much later. If I had known at the time I would probably of killed her. Not for harming me, but for harming girls aged pre teen. But I guess that’s what you think DV is all about isn’t it. Well screw you!!!

    It’s very easy, Lee to blame men for all the atrocities in the world, and you can defend as much as you wish, but what you are saying is just plain crop. One in three victims of domestic violence is against men whether you like it or not.

    WTF did I come back here to read exactly what I expected. I guess it was to see if what I expected was the way it still is. Thank you Lee.

  26. Lee

    “Lee, the article might be pay per view, but the results are clearly outlined in the abstract.”

    Are they? Without seeing how the study was performed, there is no way to determine whether or not the conclusions in the abstract are valid.

  27. Lee

    “Lee points out that there are more women visit the doctor than men. This is the very bias that I get angry about. Men don’t go to the doctor, Lee unless they a very severely injured. Men don’t go to police or doctors because they are always considered the attacker. I know that you agree with them, but it just isn’t true”

    “But I guess that’s what you think DV is all about isn’t it. Well f*ck you!!!”

    Gee I really cannot understand why someone would want to deck you.

    First of all, it’s straight out data with no bias. Women have more visits to the doctor than men. It is what it is. And if men won’t go to the doctor unless they are dragged there kicking and screaming, it’s their problem, not the fault of a woman. Men are notorious for refusing to take care of their health. Some of them even fear that a prostate exam will make them gay!

    As for your second ridiculous accusation, the other day in another thread when you started on about men being victims of domestic violence, I agreed with you and said no one should be hitting anyone. FYI, I have been a victim of domestic violence, so I don’t need you – someone who has most likely never met me and who certainly has never had an in-depth discussion with me about DV – telling me that I have no idea about DV, thank you very much. As a woman with Asperger’s, I’ve been a target for unscrupulous men for most of my life. We’re a group that are particularly vulnerable to abuse.

    As stated before, this is a thread on government policies, and the examples used by Robyn demonstrate how social issues may be interconnected. Addressing some may have flow on benefits to other issues. This is not a thread on domestic violence. Write your own article if you wish to discuss it and stop being so disrespectful to Robyn.

  28. Annie B

    @ Blanik.

    I honestly feel for you and the situation you found yourself in – and I empathise with, and understand, your feelings, your frustrations, your hurt and your considered reactions, especially in regards to the vile treatment of your daughters. …. I hear you.

    @ Lee …. I also equally feel for you and what you have been through, and most likely continue to go through, having Aspergers syndrome. The mongrels that attack you ( most likely both genders ) … are low derelicts in society. Even knowing that, it would still have hefty impact.

    ….

    As just a person sans gender ( so to speak ) … I too have been subject to humiliation, violence, threats of potential death ( by knife and gun ) , and horrid DV situations – until I got out. ……. But … I also have seen both sides of the story.

    AND witnessed it :

    The brutality of a woman ( his own bloody mother – with a golf club ) against my former husband at 24 years of age, and so many times in his formative, school and teenage years with any implement handy (so I was told ). He continued that pattern into our marriage …and having been raised myself by a family that remained in the rigid Victorian era ….. who used unbelievable fear and manipulation to instil dread and terror, in my sister and myself – had a combined effect. And so –

    ………… I can see both sides.

    And I would ask that you both see both sides as well.

  29. Annie B

    To Blanik ( again ) ….

    You gave an example in your reply to Lee, that “I was in hospital unconscious for ten hours, simply because my parents walked in and found me on the floor.” . … You were extremely fortunate that they were there and called on the necessary help for you. …. I am presuming that was the result of a physical attack from your partner and / or whoever she’d been with ?

    I have to ask – ‘ would [ some ] men, upon regaining consciousness from such an episode, go to a doctor to check for concussion, broken bones perhaps, or the emotional repercussions that may have ensued.’ … And to answer the questions that would be asked by a Doctor ? I have to say FROM EXPERIENCE, that many, if not most, would not.

    I do think you have to consider the possibility, that men – largely, do not visit doctors as many times as women do. …. this link provides some theories – but is not heavy on statistics at all :

    http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Men%27s_health?open

    If you wish, ( or if anybody wishes for that matter ) …. to call women hypochondriacs, because we visit doctors more often, be my guest. … But we do … I admit that myself. ,,,, My ‘doctor visits’ would outnumber my now husbands’ visits 6 to 1 in any given year. Not only me, but a large % of women – the same.

    None of this means that women are right and men are wrong – or vice versa. ….

    IT IS NOT A GENDER WAR. … And it damned well never should be. …. It is a societal problem – person against person – violence one against the other … and Robyn did raise the subject of domestic violence in her excellent article.

    When it comes to sexual abuse and brutal violence against children – that’s SO MUCH WORSE, for so many obvious reasons. Not going there at this point in time. These comments are too long as it is.

  30. Lee

    “………… I can see both sides.

    And I would ask that you both see both sides as well.”

    Oh for crying out loud…. I don’t remember the thread but only late last week, Blanik posted in another thread, obviously upset that someone only referred to women as being victims of DV. I agreed with him and posted some stats. From memory it was about one third of DV victims are men and 94% of the attackers of those men are female. I said that men often didn’t report it because they were disbelieved, ridiculed and their masculinity was called into question. I also said no one should be hitting anyone. I’ve repeated that last sentence in this thread.

    Now … very carefully…. read that part again.

    No. One. Should. Be. Hitting. Anyone.

    I believe it is wrong for women to hit men and it is occurring with an alarming frequency.

    I cannot make it any clearer than that. Rest assured, I do know what DV is. I do know that men experience it too. I don’t view all men as evil wife bashers. I empathise with all victims of DV, regardless of gender.

    Now please, both of you, stop pretending that you know me, know my experiences and know my thoughts. You’re both way off the mark.

    Can we return to political visions now?

  31. Aortic

    The only vision Abbott has is in the rear vision mirror back to the halcyon days of his hero Howard.

  32. Annie B

    @ Lee ……

    It doesn’t surprise me that you have quoted two lines from my comment to open your reply – and then gone on the attack, beginning with ‘Oh for crying out loud …..’

    A totally un-necessary and over-the-top reaction. ….. Talking down to me is not going to get you anywhere Lee, as in the comment ” Now …. very carefully …. read that part again”.

    ” No. One. Should. Be. Hitting. Anyone. ”

    WHAT THE HELL MAKES YOU THINK I DON’T AGREE WITH YOU ? ….

    I DO agree with you. ….

    And then – at the end you address ‘both of us’ … ( I am presuming that was directed at Blanik and myself ) saying we are ” both off the mark “.

    Your comments simply don’t make much sense, in light of the subject ….. as I had already said that I feel for you and what you have to go through, and have been through, being “targetted by unscrupulous men for most of (your) life” – You obviously did NOT read that bit. ……….. [ you volunteered the information that you have Aspergers syndrome. ]

    As for your request to stop pretending that ( I / we ) have knowledge of you ….. tell ya what madam, …. I wouldn’t particularly want to know you – after this odd little rant of yours in reply.

    One thing made sense !!!! ……. a ‘request’ to return to political visions now …..

    Oh how I agree with THAT. …….. Total end of conversation as far as I am concerned.

  33. Lee

    @Annie

    Well that’s reassuring to know. The thought that you might like me makes me feel dirty.

  34. Annie B

    @ Lee ….

    Can’t help but respond ! …… your rejoinder is really very funny, … sad but funny – LOL.

    Can’t add much more to what is already there Lee …….. if you feel dirty ??? …. no further comment.

    And let’s end this crap – right now. …

    I am seriously done with you and your nasty minded commentaries.

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