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Second verse, same as the first, a little bit louder and a little bit worse

Once again, we are going to an election with the Coalition running a deceitful scare campaign about “a big thumping electricity tax”.

A report published by the ACCC in July last year showed that consumers saved between $103 and $198 on their electricity bills, depending where you live, in the year after the carbon tax was removed. That’s less than $4 a week to take meaningful action on climate change.

The budget for Direct Action, which most agree will skyrocket if we are to achieve our emission reduction targets, was $3.5 billion. That is about $380 per household we are paying instead of collecting about $7 billion a year in revenue.

After carbon pricing was abolished, emissions went up for the first time in a decade and, according to Reputex, will continue to do so until 2030 under current policies.

While this ridiculous debate continues, the global average temperature for 2015 was 0.90°C above the 20th century average, eclipsing the previous record set in 2014 by 0.16°C. Nine months in 2015 broke global heat records with July 2015 the hottest month ever on Earth since records began in 1850. Australia recorded its hottest ever October in 2015.

And the records keep tumbling.

Information released by the Bureau of Meteorology (BoM) indicated we just had the hottest March on record, reaching 1.7 degrees Celsius above the long-term average. March 2 became Australia’s hottest day on record. Averaged across the country, it reached a top of 38 degrees Celsius. There was no relief overnight either with minimum overnight temperatures the warmest ever, smashing the 1983 record by 0.83 degrees. The hot March came on the back of the hottest February globally.

We have the farcical position of the Bestest Ever Minister in the Whole Wide World, so lauded because of his fierce protection of the Great Barrier Reef as a highway for coal tankers, telling us that the coral bleaching isn’t too bad and that an ETS would put up our electricity bills by 78% – a claim John Hewson called a bald-faced lie.

Research from the ARC Centre of Excellence for Climate System Science shows that, if greenhouse gases keep rising, then mass coral bleaching events, like the one currently gripping the reef, will happen every two years by the mid-2030s. That spells death for large parts of the reef because corals won’t get the 15-year break they need to recover.

According to government-commissioned research by Delloites, the total Australia-wide value-added economic contribution generated in the Reef catchment in 2012 was $5.7 billion with employment (as measured in full-time equivalent workers) of just below 69,000.

In June last year, a court in The Hague ruled that the Dutch government’s modest emission reduction targets were unlawful given the scale of the threat posed by climate change. They ordered the government to cut its emissions by at least 25% within five years.

So why are we still arguing?

In November last year, the CSIRO published a report showing that gender, age and education mattered little in a person’s opinion on climate change, but a person’s voting behaviour was found to have a strong correlation. Just 28% of Liberal voters believe climate change is human-induced, and that figure is 22% for Nationals voters.

Our Deputy Prime Minister, Barnaby Joyce, is a sceptic. In May last year he told Andrew Bolt:

“I’m just always sceptical of the idea that the way that anybody’s going to change the climate — and I’m just driving in this morning and we’re driving through a frost — is with bureaucrats and taxes. All this does is … it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. I make you feel guilty so I can get your money and put it in my pocket and send reports backwards and forth to one another.”

Cory Bernardi said on Q&A in 2013:

“I don’t, and I have never bought the alarmist hysteria attached to carbon dioxide as driving climate change. There’s no consensus of scientists, I’m afraid. There’s literally tens of thousands of scientists who have a different view on this. Over the course of time, a lot of the alarmists predictions and forecasts have been proved wrong.”

George Christensen, addressing a Heartland Institute conference in 2014, said:

“It’s hard to tell the difference between an alarmist claim about global effects and the basic premise of a disaster movie plot. The weather and climate in Australia has not changed in the last century but a new religious interpretation has arisen since then. When we are in a flood, they tell us ‘too much rain is a sign, more hurricanes is a sign, fewer hurricanes is a sign, the sky is blue — it’s a sign. Gravity — it’s a sign’.”

The reason this is so much worse this time around is that Malcolm Turnbull knows his climate change policy is “bullshit” but he is willing to sacrifice the whole damn planet to appease those who would keep him in power.

 

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142 comments

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  1. Glenn K

    great stuff that article from Malcolm Turnbull on 7 Dec 2009. If only every voting Australian could read it.

  2. Adrianne Haddow

    It’s amazing that the Christian fundamentalists in the LNP claim an acquaintance with the work of “tens of thousands” of scientists when they fail to read their own departmental briefs and reports relating to their work.

    Barnaby Joyce driving through a frost (in winter) claims that as evidence that global warming does not exist, and it’s all plot to put your money in his pocket to write reports, that they won’t read anyway. Yep that should convince everybody that he’s right and they’re deluded.

    The coral bleaching on the once Great Barrier Reef can’t be evidence of warming sea temperatures. Neither can the several times yearly cyclones we suffer, and then pay huge amounts of cash to repair the devastation caused by them. It’s such a non-event, that Mike Baird is talking of a levy to financially help out the insurance companies who have to pay out claims, sometimes even before the next weather event occurs.

    Next thing they’ll bring as evidence will be all those solar panels stealing the sun, and wind farms altering weather patterns because they’re using all the wind. It couldn’t be the coal burning power stations, because any restrictions on those will affect their shares.

    What a bunch of intellectual giants we have in government.

  3. John Kelly

    We paid an extra $4 per week in electricity costs due to the Carbon Tax which would have raised $7 billion per year in revenue. We are now paying $380 per year for Direct Action. Do the Math.

  4. stephentardrew

    Turnbull is the most vile of politicians an easily bought Machiavellian willing to say what is needed to keep him in power. This is a true Faustian contract with the dark side of human nature that would willingly destroy the biosphere and future of our children simply for the chance to obtain power. He will pretend he retained his position to bring about change later however the ethics of lying and deception clearly demonstrate that such justifications are selfish contortions of truth when, in fact, he should be doing everything in his power to convince conservatives of the efficacy of global warming.

    Many have been railing against technology and artificial intelligence however if this garbage keeps going we may well be dependent upon a silicon based biological cybernetic interface with a new type of logical and rational intelligence because we certainly are demonstrating an inability to divorce ourselves from magic, mythology, religion and the underlying lies and miss-truths that support such demented ideas. Yet to solve this problem we must all pull together in a so called secular society. That so many Catholics have political sway in this country is a blight upon a secular society and it may well be we need to legislate for diversity in parliament including a cohort of our best scientist to help guide us into a more sustainable future.

    This is not such a radical idea when we realise that the media and global corporate financiers and religious acolytes are buying political power. So we willingly allow the destructive force of rampant capitalism to deface democracy while accepting any demented fool to represent the country in government. Democracy is an evolving construct not a fixed ideology and if we fail to adjust to the obvious facts then we are dooming many to intolerable suffering.

    The debt/surplus myth is destroying our productive capacity by reducing wages, work conditions and unemployment while forcing citizens into unsustainable debt servitude. There have been forty years of this madness yet do people learn. No they are actually not allowed to learn guided by a complicit media that is captured by neo-liberal supply side lies.

    From John B Kelley’s article “A Collective of Idiots”:

    Bill Mitchell gives us a chilling assessment of our economy when he says,

    “Far from being a nation of free souls, we are, in reality, a collective of idiots – running headlong towards the cliff!”

    And this includes Labor and the Greens who cannot see the wood for the trees. The housing bubble will burst as we continue with austerity and the idiot notion of a surplus and from Steve Keen’s A Thought Experiment on budget surplus:

    “So in answer to David Cameron’s question from 2013, “Do you think it’s right to have a surplus?”, my answer is “No, I don’t”—because unlike Dave, I understand that running a government surplus destroys money. The conventional belief that governments should run surpluses is not “sound finance”, but an unsound failure to understand capitalism.”

    Be very afraid.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevekeen/2016/03/13/a-thought-experiment-on-budget-surpluses/#72a4366e31b1

  5. Keith

    While the argument about climate change goes around in circles in Australia, India and other Asian countries are being impacted on by excessive heat.

    http://phys.org/news/2016-04-el-nino-dries-asia-stormy.html

    Despite what Neo Liberal politicians are saying, the Great Barrier Reef is in bad shape.
    Glaciers are still regressing.
    Much emphasis is being placed on studying permafrost in the Arctic for good reason.

    When politicians call into question climate science it calls into question their strategic thinking generally.

    http://www.monbiot.com/2016/04/15/the-zombie-doctrine/

  6. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Thanks Kaye Lee and stephentardrew,

    for highlighting what the ignorant fools in the LNP are allowing to destroy our environment in the pursuit of a warped Neoliberal economic agenda.

    Labor and the Greens must stand together in Alliance advocating an alternative vision for how to run the Economy and protect the Environment.

    Bill Mitchell and his recommendations for Modern Monetary Theory is the one to listen to and I want to see Shorten openly supporting this refreshing approach to providing for the socio-economic common good while also rehabilitating the Great Barrier Reef amongst many other environmental imperatives. (This should also bring the Palaszczuk Qld Labor Government under scrutiny, and which is to be condemned for its assault on GBR just like the odious Newman one before.)

  7. Kaye Lee

    In the interests of accuracy, that $380 for direct action is not a yearly figure. The total allocation of $2.55 billion for the ERF is referred to in the 14-15 budget papers but they only allocated $1.15 billion over the forward estimates. The expenditure is now expected to occur over the ten years to 2023–24, an amount that cannot possibly buy the required abatement.

    There was also $700 million allocated for the Green Army.

    The $380 figure came from dividing $3.5 billion by 9.2 million households. If you included the lost revenue from the carbon tax we are a lot worse off.

  8. Geoff Andrews

    stephentardrew,
    I wonder if you could enlarge upon your opinion that neither Labor or the Greens cannot see the wood for the trees.

    Kaye,
    Thank you for the fantastic array of statistics (to be committed to memory and trotted out with all the confidence of the Libs “electricity prices will increase by 78.12% with Labor’s carbon price”.)

  9. Miriam English

    I joked before that Barnaby Joyce might have brain damage, but reading the disjointed, nonsensical, wildly free-associating babble he gave above, I’m wondering if perhaps he really is brain damaged.

    I guess it’s no surprise to me that the committed good Christian Cory Bernardi has absolutely no qualms at lying. And what a whopper he comes out with!

    And what can we say about George Christensen? All he does is sneer. There is no argument, no logic, just insinuation. I can almost see his face leering when speaking the words. There isn’t even mental deficiency to blame, just cynical greed. He’ll say whatever gets him the money. What a truly horrible creature.

    Lastly, Malcolm Turnbull. There is not much to be said for him. He suffers the ultimate indignity: he is someone else’s mouthpiece. What a terrible fate for an intelligent, thinking person. I wonder how he justifies it to himself. In my anger I find myself hoping his home is near the waterline and that sea level rise will make it worthless in a few years, and hopefully wipe out the Cayman Island investments he has hidden away too.

    I don’t understand why the Insurance industry hasn’t mounted a big campaign to stop these idiots. It would be worth a few million dollars to save their businesses. Already they’re paying out record amounts all around the world. They, more than any group are going to suffer under the coming climate onslaughts. The Tourism industry is another that should be pitching in big dollars to stop these fossil fools from distorting reality. Why does big business simply go along with the corruption when it is so clearly bad for business in the long term? It just blows me away. Big business closes ranks to protect the lie even when it hurts them to do so. Weird.

  10. Backyard Bob

    JMS,

    Bill Mitchell and his recommendations for Modern Monetary Theory is the one to listen to and I want to see Shorten openly supporting this refreshing approach to providing for the socio-economic common good[…]

    I’d rather see him win the election, and he most assuredly won’t do that spruiking MMT from Opposition. He can quietly apply MMT and talk up its apparent superiority all he wants from Government. If he does it from Opposition he will guarantee a Coalition Government for the next decade.

    Luckily, he’s not going to do it.

  11. jim

    “Climate change is crap” said the Liberal nutters party member, mrabbitt.Climate tracker update August 2015; Australia is one of five industrialised countries rated “inadequate” by the Climate Action Tracker (the other four are Canada, Japan, New Zealand and Russia). There is no single metric, such as rate of improvement in emissions per capita or improvement of emissions intensity, that can be used to rank the country unambiguously, given different starting years, base years and history of action (or inaction) on climate policy. Based on a range of metrics, Australia’s INDC is in the bottom half of the range of the industrialised countriesThe Climate Action Tracker (CAT) is an independent scientific analysis produced by four research organisations tracking climate action and global efforts towards the globally agreed aim (as if) of holding warming below 2°C, since 2009. ……….link…….http://climateactiontracker.org/countries/australia.html

  12. Kaye Lee

    jim, from December last year…..

    Australia has come third last in an annual assessment of 58 nations’ climate policies, with only Saudi Arabia and Kazakhstan ranking worse.

    The assessment by Germanwatch and Climate Action Network Europe was released at the Paris climate summit, just one day after foreign minister Julie Bishop told the assembled ministers Australia was meeting and beating its climate targets and transforming its energy production.

    The report measures actual emission levels per capita, the trend in emissions projections, the deployment of renewable energy, and the energy intensity of the economy, and assesses climate policies for each of the 58 countries.

    Through legislative amendments in June 2015, Australia’s renewable energy target (RET) was scaled down from 41,000 GWh to 33,000 GWh. The definition of renewable energy was also altered to include burning of biomass from native forests. Experts criticise that this move would restrict uptake of real renewable energy, drive deforestation, cause carbon emissions and reduce sequestration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/dec/08/australia-ranked-third-last-in-climate-change-performance-of-58-countries

  13. maxpowerof1

    As a supposedly intellectual, progressive thinkers forum. You might need to reconsider the labels you apply. The flippant and weak minded insults that are sometimes levelled have nothing to do with those you complain of.
    I am referring to terms like ‘psychotic’ and ‘brain damaged’.

    If you have not the ability for a constructive argument and resort to these misnomers as a means of insult, then you are no better.

    Have some consideration for those that deal with real people that have real medical conditions. If you took a moment to ascertain what a psychotic illness actually is, you would not consider the word an insult. The same with ‘brain damaged’.

    Some people with these afflictions have not used alcohol or other drugs, some have the afflictions due to circumstance not of their own.

    The majority of psychological traumas, are left untreated, that is to say there is not the councelling or the guidance required for an individual to navigate psychologically traumatising events.

    This results in anger.

    Psychotic illness renders an individual unable to cope with ‘normal’ diurnal activities. Simple activities like personal hygiene, refined social interactions etc.
    They are required to manage, an unmanagable illness. Treatment at best is chemical experimentation.

    A first hand experience of an individual that suffers untreatable psychiatric illness, first generates a misplaced fear for your own safety, but with understanding there is a realisation that this individual is at a frontier of neuroscience that is still mostly incomprehensible.

    Those you choose to insult suffer the same condition as yourselves, self righteous entitlement based on deliberate misinformation and an unwillingness to recognise the defecit of your own understanding.

  14. diannaart

    Kaye Lee

    I tweeted : Conservation 4 Australia @TurnbullMalcolm “My climate change policy ensures I retain power”

  15. jimhaz

    I was (part) watching of the Mankind From Space doco last night (a US doco so as usual rather average)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhD7PWc3-2o

    We already use 50% of the land for food cultivation. With an increasing population you’d have to wonder if there is any hope left for a sustainable world.

    I say no chance whatsoever. In 100 years is going to be a grey and ugly world.

    Forget about what politicians do about this and that climate change action, as they both continue to promote population and economic growth. This is where the GREAT political and religious traitorship of the people lies. This is the great harm of the wealthy controlling policy.

    A worldwide carbon tax won’t make enough overall difference – there is no underlying sustainability. Perhaps we’d be better off experiencing the carnage that excessive heat will cause sooner than having it deferred. Only pain is going to make things change.

  16. stephentardrew

    Backjard Bob:

    Shorten winning an election will be a double edged sword unless there is a radical attack on neo-liberal supply side nonsense. Whoever is in power will face an Australian recession of epic proportions as the housing market over inflates and sub-prime loans expand. If you do not have 20% equity in your home you will be in trouble. No bankruptcy walk aways here like the US as you will carry the debt with you for life.

    This is not a matter of opinion it is based upon the empirically verifiable work on instability in economies by Marvin Minsky upon which MMT is based. After all he was one of the few that predicted the GFC. Funny how we are seeing a rise in banking malfeasance. One thing you can be sure of a boom proceeds a bust as regulations are weaken and everyone gets on the profit bandwagon as dubious financial products are peddled by banks and financial institutions for examples derivatives etc.

    Unless the debt myth is challenged front on and the balanced budget farce attacked whoever fails to predict the next crisis L-NP, Labor and Greens will be toast as will neoliberal supply side nonsense.

    There will very likely be a new party and independents prepared and ready to deal with this disaster. How do I know. It is now in the process of development and it will have empirical facts and demonstrable explanations for the failure of capitalism ready to go. Unless Labor and the Greens get on the bandwagon they will be equated with failure. Thing is when the economy flattens peoples expectations flatten while the most destructive force austerity and balance or surplus budget are driving us towards the cliff.

    Be warned Professor Bill Mitchell is one of the most astute economists in this country and when he states:

    “Far from being a nation of free souls, we are, in reality, a collective of idiots – running headlong towards the cliff!”

    He includes mainstream political parties including the Greens. You can mince and deflect however the recession will come and they will all be found seriously wanting.

    I have contacted Labor and the Greens who really do not want to know about the empirical basis and predictive success of MMT.

  17. nurses1968

    stephentardrew
    “There will very likely be a new party and independents prepared and ready to deal with this disaster. ”
    Don’t keep us hanging, who are these miracle workers, Which party, we might all want to jump on the bandwaggon

  18. Kaye Lee

    jimhaz,

    It has been shown that lifting people out of poverty combined with education, especially for women, reduces the birth rate.

  19. Kaye Lee

    maxpowerof1,

    You make a valid criticism to which we should all listen.

    I was very dismayed to hear that Turnbull is scrapping funding for the Early Psychosis Youth Services (EPYS) program.

    ” The program, introduced by the Gillard government and supported by Tony Abbott in opposition, involves specialist teams that treat patients, while also helping them secure accommodation, return to school or find work. They also support families to improve patients’ chances of recovery”

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/futures-will-be-lost-health-fears-as-youth-psychosis-program-dropped-20160429-goi1hu.html

    Personally I think Barnaby Joyce is dumb as a post and cannot believe his good fortune at scoring such a well-paying gig for doing nothing more than being a “retail politician” which apparently means flying all over the place to have a drink with people.

  20. Backyard Bob

    Stephen,

    I presume you meant Hyman Minsky when you said Marvin Minsky (an AI specialist). It might actually be a tad simplistic to say MMT is “based” on Minsky’s ideas. It’s a bit more complex than that (said some Chartalist no-one’s ever heard of).

    Everything you say may well be true. I’m not an economist, and even if I was there’s every chance I’d have a different view. But ultimately I was making no comment about the merits or otherwise of MMT. I was speaking to the politics of it. Even if he wanted to, Shorten cannot adopt a public policy of MMT endorsement. It would be political suicide.

    That does not speak to what he may be able to achieve in government (if he wanted to). I guess it will be up to MMT protagonists to make that case to any future Labor Government.

  21. jimhaz

    [It has been shown that lifting people out of poverty combined with education, especially for women, reduces the birth rate]

    That is true, but I do not see how we can afford to lift 2-3 billion out of poverty….and until the muslim religion has an enlightenment period they will have a high birth rate. Wealthy countries only grow now by immigration, but it is not as if the home countries are not also increasing in population.

    Although written for a movie about Native Americans, this fictional speech excerpt hit me about the modern LNP supporter – the gung-ho businessperson who thinks all growth is good.

    “We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs. The earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he moves on. He leaves his father’s grave behind, and he does not care. He kidnaps the earth from his children, and he does not care. His father’s grave, and his children’s birthright are forgotten. He treats his mother, the earth, and his brother, the sky, as things to be bought, plundered, sold like sheep or bright beads. His appetite will devour the earth and leave behind only a desert.

    Where is the forest? Gone. Where is the eagle? Gone.

    The end of living and the beginning of survival.”

    http://www.californiaindianeducation.org/famous_indian_chiefs/chief_seattle/

  22. Michael

    Kaye Lee, what I consider very concerning to the point of treachery is the now unconscious manner in which the media allow general and sweeping statements – so ably demonstrated by your reference to Joyce, Bernardi, Christensen, et al – to be made without immediate follow up question/clarification as to, for example, the quantity/amount/sum and their source.

    I do not see the point of quoting any sweeping statement without any qualification or source – no qualification or source – no publication of statement.

    Would AIMN take that on?

  23. Jexpat

    maxpowerof1:

    In regard to several of the named individuals, it would probably be more accurate for us to refer to cognitive deficits, which include limitations in a person’s attention span, their general fund of knowledge, judgment, planning, reasoning and decision making.

    In addition to those with cognitive deficits, in some cases we’re dealing with what psychologist Daniel Goleman terms the “Dark Triad” – narcissists, Machiavellians, and sociopaths. The stiking deficiency in these individuals involves the lack of cognitive emotional empathy and/or compassionate empathy and what we might call a ‘conscience.’

    They simply don’t care about the consequences of their behavior beyond whatever short term personal or tribal ‘gain’ or desire (or avoidance of losses) they themselves incur.

    Beyond the psychopathologies, the evidence from many of the individuals’ public statements and behaviors shows that many have not progressed far through Kohlberg’s states of moral devlopment. I some instances, their moral reasoning truly is childlike:

    See: https://www.verywell.com/kohlbergs-theory-of-moral-developmet-2795071

  24. Kaye Lee

    Michael,

    I have posed many questions to politicians’ offices by phone and email. They rarely respond. Most Coalition politicians, including my local member, have also banned me from their facebook pages.

  25. Athena

    “It’s amazing that the Christian fundamentalists in the LNP claim an acquaintance with the work of “tens of thousands” of scientists when they fail to read their own departmental briefs and reports relating to their work.”

    @Adrianne Haddow – They’re also more acquainted with the work of tens of thousands of scientists than they are with their own bibles.

  26. Athena

    “He includes mainstream political parties including the Greens. You can mince and deflect however the recession will come and they will all be found seriously wanting.

    I have contacted Labor and the Greens who really do not want to know about the empirical basis and predictive success of MMT.”

    Australian Progressives is the only party I’m aware of that acknowledges MMT.

  27. Kaye Lee

    I must say I agree with ByB regarding MMT. There is no need or time to speak about it in an election campaign. Get into office and just do it like Hockey got into office and abolished (with the Greens assistance) the debt limit.

  28. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    If Labor does not indicate its preparedness for such economic reform before the election, then how can we believe Labor would engage MMT once in government?

    I’m not convinced Labor has the will or the gumption to seek alternative, progressive economic reforms at a 180 degree angle opposite to the current neoliberal economic rationalism.

  29. Keitha Granville

    so, who can present this in a way that the vast majority of voters who DON’T read AIMN and who DO vote for the LNP will read and understand ? How do we get it out there ? I can talk till I’m blue in the face but your average Joe needs dollar signs, coins in pocket figures so that he can grasp what it means.
    Find a way to do that, and we”ll have them.

  30. Athena

    “Get into office and just do it like Hockey got into office and abolished (with the Greens assistance) the debt limit.”

    @ Kaye Lee

    What is the relevance of this comment and why the cheap shot at the Greens? According to MMT there is no debt, it’s a deficit and the magnitude of the deficit is irrelevant to a currency issuing nation. If anything, the ALP’s opposition to increasing the deficit is working against improving our economy, providing jobs and much needed services. (I’ll concede that the LNP probably isn’t interested in increasing the deficit for any noble reason though.) Hockey’s actions in this case are only relevant when highlighting the hypocrisy and lies of the LP.

  31. Athena

    “If Labor does not indicate its preparedness for such economic reform before the election, then how can we believe Labor would engage MMT once in government?

    I’m not convinced Labor has the will or the gumption to seek alternative, progressive economic reforms at a 180 degree angle opposite to the current neoliberal economic rationalism.”

    I’m in complete agreement with Jennifer. I don’t expect the ALP to start preaching the theory of MMT, but there’s no indication in anything they’re saying that provides any glimmer of hope of them embracing MMT once in government.

  32. maxpowerof1

    jex.
    Those terms, popularised by the internet, can be applied to everyone and the accuracy of, is comparable to that of a stopped clock.

    the issue
    The last election campaign revolved around the imminent presentation of the lnps policies. With an expectant belief that they will, right up to the media blackout. They won the election inspite of the fact that they never released any policy.

    This time, they release ‘vote buying’ policy prior to the campaign.

  33. jimhaz

    “the current neoliberal economic rationalism”…..nah MMT is worse off than that, it goes against logic and rational economic theory.

    It would be a nightmare, as it would allow a party free reign for govs to not be economically responsible.

    MMT would be like sugar – as in isn’t this great, until we overindulged and got diabetes.

  34. Kaye Lee

    “why the cheap shot at the Greens”

    I find it surprising that you consider a statement of fact a cheap shot. I have absolutely no problem with eliminating the debt ceiling. What I am suggesting is that the electorate cannot yet handle the concept of MMT but it is an option open to the Labor Party after election, as was the increase in the debt ceiling an option Hockey chose to pursue. I don’t know if just crediting an account at the RBA requires legislative approval. If it does, I hope the Greens will be in a position to support this better alternative. You protest too much.

  35. Kaye Lee

    jimhaz,

    While MMT must have limitations, those are imposed not by the concept but by the productive capacity of the economy. Provided we have unused productive capacity, which we do, and invest the money in productivity enhancing ventures like health, education, infrastructure, employment, lifting people out of poverty etc, it will not be inflationary. If we spend it on Rolls Royce bombs and submarines, then yes it would cruel us.

  36. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Where there is a will, there is a way. Checks and balances can be built into every piece of economic or finance policies that stipulate strict conditions that need to be met for any purchase or economic measure to be taken, so that inflationary conditions are not produced by excesses.

  37. Michael

    Kaye Lee, do you think AIMN take on a stand that either:
    – they will not print a claim or statement unless it is qualified, defined accurately and contextually, substantiated and supported? or
    – edit any statement or claim accordingly?

    I am sure I and others could learn so much more.

    Declaration – some have been known to state that I am an idealist tragic …. or did they really mean tragic idealist?

  38. Kaye Lee

    Michael,

    I always want to know the source of what I am reading but if we only printed government assertions that had a credible source we would never pass on anything they say.

    When I pass on information I try to quote the source. I think passing on the crap the Coalition politicians say is important and I promise to quote any source they give, IF they will give one. If they quote discredited reports, I will report that too. If they are just “talking through their hat” I think that is also worth reporting on.

  39. Miriam English

    It looks like the Labor party intends to lock in the Abbott-Turnbull government’s $1 billion cut from renewable energy. Is the Labor party as deeply in bed with the big fossil fuel companies as the LNP? A bit depressing if so.

  40. Möbius Ecko

    Morgan like Essential last week.
    ALP 51% +1
    L/NP 49% -1

  41. Max Gross

    So here’s my question. If our government, political and industry leaders refuse to act, how do we mere mortals MAKE them do the right thing? And please don’t say “vote”.

  42. Athena

    “I find it surprising that you consider a statement of fact a cheap shot. I have absolutely no problem with eliminating the debt ceiling. What I am suggesting is that the electorate cannot yet handle the concept of MMT but it is an option open to the Labor Party after election”

    “You protest too much.”

    @ Kaye Lee
    You are one of the people who have stated on this site that ALP and Greens should stop bickering between the two parties. There was absolutely no need for the “Greens assistance” remark. If you’re so concerned with fact, why didn’t you mention the assistance of John Madigan and Nick Xenophon?

  43. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    It seems to me the only enemy is the LNPoops and their nasty Big Biz backers. Everybody else is open for discussion. SO don’t close down the partnerships that can happen at this most important point of time for preparation of the New Government, which will be an Alliance of our combined expressions, which I personally see as the Greens, the upcoming Progressive parties and sane Independents.

    Get the LNPoops out and build on the Alliance to make Australia a far better place than it has been for the last 2 1/2 miserable years. Our forward vision needs to be better still so that we change the neo-liberal system to an alternative, egalitarian, progressive system so that MUST be part of our agenda and voters’ compulsion from now on.

  44. Athena

    “It looks like the Labor party intends to lock in the Abbott-Turnbull government’s $1 billion cut from renewable energy. Is the Labor party as deeply in bed with the big fossil fuel companies as the LNP? A bit depressing if so.”

    Would be interesting to know if the ALP intends to reverse this blatant stupidity if they get elected.

    http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/sudden-bizarre-change-in-solar-hot-water-standard-could-be-disaster-for-industry-13565

    My neighbour across the street only has a small portion of roof facing north, and it’s being blocked by a huge tree on the footpath, plus another across the street. There would be tons of people affected by this change.

  45. Athena

    “It seems to me the only enemy is the LNPoops and their nasty Big Biz backers. ”

    Don’t bet on it. ALP (SA branch) is in bed with Ernst & Young, who donated to them and Federal ALP in 2014-15. Between the two of them they’re screwing up public health in SA in an unprecedented manner.

  46. Athena

    “So here’s my question. If our government, political and industry leaders refuse to act, what are we mere mortals to do to MAKE them do the right thing? And please don’t say “vote”.”

    Stopping seeing the two major parties as the only options. Why keep voting the same way and expect a different outcome? There are 2 other parties that are progressive – the Greens and the Australian Progressives. The people of Indi got tired of Sophie Mirabella and found their own (independant) candidate that would represent them rather than big business.

  47. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Athena,

    Yes,
    Yes, and
    Yes.

    Good comments that I agree with on all counts, especially the last one.

  48. Jexpat

    maxpowerof1:

    The terms proffered and the concepts behind them largely predate the World Wide Web.

  49. Kaye Lee

    Athena,

    “You are one of the people who have stated on this site that ALP and Greens should stop bickering between the two parties. There was absolutely no need for the “Greens assistance” remark. If you’re so concerned with fact, why didn’t you mention the assistance of John Madigan and Nick Xenophon?”

    I have no problem with the Greens other than the chip on their shoulder that makes it sound like they always want an argument. The “greens assistance” remark was not derogatory and the reason I would mention them and not a couple of individuals is because, if the Coalition and Greens combine in the Senate, then they have a majority (43 votes) making how others vote irrelevant. As I have already stated, I had no problem at all with them removing the debt ceiling.

  50. Athena

    “I have no problem with the Greens other than the chip on their shoulder that makes it sound like they always want an argument.”

    @ Kaye Lee

    That’s an interesting observation. I concede that on some issues, such as asylum seekers, they must come across as argumentative because they don’t tolerate the inhumane treatment meted out by the LNP and the ALP. Several of them come to my mind as the least emotional people when giving speeches in the parliament. They’ve also stated they’re willing to work with the ALP, and the Liberal Party, although working with the latter is unlikely in the foreseeable future. I cannot recall the last time I heard anyone in the ALP say that they are willing to work with the Greens and Tony Abbott in particular was very strongly opposed to working with them at all, before knowing their views on any issue.

  51. Kaye Lee

    You don’t have to be a Greens voter to deplore the asylum seeker policy of both major parties.

    I also admire the speeches given by Scott Ludlum, and Larissa Waters is very effective in Senate committees. It isn’t the politicians I have a problem with and the Greens probably best represent my wishes.

    I just sometimes feel that between ALP and Greens supporters there is “anticipated tension” which makes it difficult for progressives to trust each other and work together. It is one of the reasons that I have no allegiance to any political party but I accept the reality that, at the moment, Labor are the only party with a chance of forming an alternative government. I hope they can work together with the Greens and Independents to oust this shambolic government.

  52. diannaart

    Well stated Kaye Lee

  53. Athena

    Well that I can agree with, Kaye.

    Although, by considering the major two parties as the only options, they will always be the only options.

  54. Keith

    Somewhere I have read that the Greens say that they have supported the Coalition the least of all Parties in the Senate.

    Hopefully, Independents and small Parties will fair well in the coming Federal election in the Senate. The Senate is meant to review legislation, not rubber stamp it.

  55. Kronomex

    When your party is a giant policy free zone and bum chum to the big arse,um, end, of town then the only thing you can run with the current Clayton’s election campaign is use words like “scare”, “terrorism and fear of the other”, “tax” and any other word or phrase that involves frightening people.

  56. Kaye Lee

    ” by considering the major two parties as the only options, they will always be the only options”

    For the Greens to form government, they would have to get about 40 seats in the HoR and get 36 other people to agree for them to lead. As they only have one MP currently in the HoR it is unrealistic to consider them as a chance to form government. They sensibly concentrate their resources and don’t contest all seats. They do a very good job when they are significant as a balance of power in the house of review. Bandt also played a significant role in the hung parliament.

  57. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    That is why, Kaye, I keep advocating that an Alliance needs to be formed between the Greens, left Labor, Progressive parties and sane Independents.

    Nobody denies the difficulty in getting smaller parties up to the party might of the LibLab duopoly.

    If we want to get rid of the cynical and regressive hold of the LNPees on government for the long term, and we want to shape Labor back up to the progressive and equitable standards it has traditionally been respected for, we need to encourage the formation of the Alliance that will meet the political and philosophical expectations of a wide range of Australians, who care for society, the environment and progressive economics that works for the 99%.

  58. Keith

    With information provided by NOAA; those who deny climate change are absolute fools.

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/aggi.html

    It shows how many watts per square meter we are over equilibrium, the number is 2.974 when taking all greenhouse gases into account.
    The question is how many billion square meters are impacted on?

  59. Athena

    Thank you, Jennifer. A change for the better is a long term goal. I’m tired of all this BS rhetoric about smaller parties not being suitable because they cannot form government *now*. The definition of blatant stupidity is to continue voting the same way and expect a different outcome. It doesn’t matter that voters tell the big two what they want. A vote for them is endorsing their policies and giving them a license to do whatever the hell they want, which is serving their party donors. They are so damned arrogant by blocking voters on social media who ask them awkward questions, because they can afford to be arrogant. They know that most of the voters are sheeple. When parties cannot govern in their own right, they are forced to negotiate. How is it in anyone’s best interests to have a majority and they all vote the same on every issue, regardless of what the people in their electorates want? A mix of members might actually lead to more people considering the issues on their merits rather than serving big business.

  60. diannaart

    Athena

    BS rhetoric about smaller parties not being suitable because they cannot form government *now*.

    Always said in a tone suggesting the smaller parties don’t even realise they can’t form government by themselves…. Duh!

    They can form alliances, sometimes it is for the public good – like halting some of the worst aspects of Hockey’s 2014 budget.

    Then there is the criticism “these small parties/independents don’t understand how to perform in government”… no one does for the first time (including LNP & Labor) until they get there.

    Diversity is messier, but far more likely to represent more Australians than just the big 2.

    Vote under the line, everyone, let’s make these pollies learn how to negotiate.

  61. Kaye Lee

    Athena,

    Either the Coalition or the Labor Party will be in government in a few weeks time. Of the two, whose policies do you prefer?

  62. nurses1968

    Kaye Lee
    re the Greens
    ” They sensibly concentrate their resources and don’t contest all seats.”
    yes they do, EVERY seat , more than the big 2
    for those cynics among us, it is fund raising venture each first preference vote was worth 248.800 cents.bringing them a tidy $5 531 871.45
    It does seem however, more money is thrown at inner city Labor seats. Albanese, Plibersek etc

  63. Athena

    @ Kaye Lee

    At face value, I prefer the ALP policies. Whether or not I can believe them is another matter entirely. The ALP has been winding back Gough’s achievements, just as well as the LNP has. They’ve not taken the opportunity when in government previously to ensure that the wealthy pay their fair share of income tax. They don’t support a federal ICAC.

  64. Athena

    nurses1968, which seats at the 2013 election did not have an ALP or Liberal candidate?

  65. Athena

    Oh, and the ALP received $20.8 million from their primary votes at the 2013 election, the Coalition $27.2 million.

  66. Bighead1883

    nurses1968 May 3, 2016 at 2:52 pm

    Exactly comrade
    These Greens are heaps better than One Nation in harvesting our tax dollars from the AEC

    An article on Turnbull and the LNP mess Australia is in and a comments section about Greens crying about Labor
    Have a look at your self righteous vindictive predictable selves

  67. Athena

    Gee it really hurts you that over 1 million progressives are not interested in voting for your precious ALP, doesn’t it?

    Let’s not overlook the fact that for a similar number of primary votes in 2013, the Liberal National Party (Qld) won 22 seats to the Greens 1 seat. For less than half the primary votes achieved by the Greens, the Nationals won 9 seats. That’s some democracy!

    I live in the electorate of Sturt. To the best of my knowledge, the ALP hasn’t even released the name of their candidate for Sturt yet. The Greens and Nick Xenophon have, weeks ago. Despite their mantra of putting people first, the ALP are showing that they don’t give a rat’s posterior about the residents of Sturt. But come election time they will have a candidate who, according to your logic, will just be a fundraiser for the ALP. Just as with every other election campaign, the Greens candidate in Sturt will be far more visible to the electorate than the ALP candidate. At least the Greens are working for their votes.

  68. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    You know what Bighead1883,

    I reckon you’re a Lib plant masquerading as a Labor faithful! If you were truly loyal, you would be encouraging an Alliance between Labor and the Greens instead of promoting division with your mate, nurses1968.

    (Sorry kindly Greens and Labor people for my having go at Bighead but I’m sick of his deliberate trouble making.)

  69. Miriam English

    Bighead1883, blah blah blah blahdy blah blah.
    I’m sorry, I couldn’t work out what you were saying over the rancorous sound of your whining.

    We all need the ALP to win this election. The Greens, the progressive independents, and all the small progressive parties all want the LNP to get the boot. Instead of recognising that, you continue to rant and rave like a broken record, ignoring facts and spewing hate at your allies. Not smart old chap. Not smart at all.

  70. Bighead1883

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith May 4, 2016 at 6:22 pm

    Reckon whatever you like and keeping to my word I have questioned the whole comments section as to the validity of commenting as to the article

    Some are far more pathetic than others at hypocrisy

  71. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    The common enemy is the LNP Government. Keep that in your sights and don’t question your allies’ rights to Freedom of Expression.

  72. Backyard Bob

    I live in the electorate of Sturt. To the best of my knowledge, the ALP hasn’t even released the name of their candidate for Sturt yet.

    http://mattloader.com.au/About

  73. Backyard Bob

    JMS,

    Why don’t you pen and submit an article to AIMN regarding your “Alliance” concept? You know, something with substance and detail? I confess I’m weary of hearing about it because it never amounts to anything more than verbal fairy floss. I’m sorry to be so candid, but it’s the truth. You never, ever say anything about how it will actually work, what form it will take and how, as I’ve asked you before, any Greens, or “progressive” policy notion is going to constitute anything that the Labor party hasn’t already considered adopting (and subsequently adopted or rejected).

    On the level of sentiment, the idea resonates, but when one stops to consider the practical application I can find no coherence at all.

  74. cornlegend

    Jennifer and Athena re comment other article
    Actually Nurses is right on this.
    Jennifer is calling for the “Left” within Labor to form an Alliance not Labor
    If, as an example by some miracle that happened and there was a vote on the floor, those deviating from Labor policy would face expulsion.
    It would be all of Labor supporting an alliance or none if they wanted to maintain their Labor endorsement and membership

    “I’m not expecting them to break away from their party structure. I am expecting them to push for supremacy in their own party while forming the Alliance with a range of other progressive representative powers. ”

    The Australian Labor Party is quite open about its demand that its representatives shall be its delegates, and it enforces discipline over parliamentary members with a formal pledge. Members of the party pledge themselves to be bound by the platform and rules of the party and by the decisions of the executive and conference, not to oppose any endorsed Labor candidate at any election and to vote according to the majority decision of the caucus of the parliamentary party on all questions in parliament. They face expulsion from the party if they break any aspect of the pledge.

    A.8
    (a) A person who is a member of another political
    party or one of its affiliated organisations
    cannot join the Party. Country Labor is not
    included for the purposes of this Rule.

  75. Backyard Bob

    Take a breath and watch something wonderful for a couple of minutes, just for the hell of it (maximum volume recommended – f*ck the neighbours):

  76. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    ByB,

    I’ve written about this idea as much as I can. I have been influenced by my insight into the Danish system which operates along the lines of multi-party alliances. The better negotiators form the stronger alliances. Micro parties can come to the fore when there is a split between bigger operators. I consider that scenario to be a very refreshing approach to Democracy.

    Despite your weariness at my repeated call for such a robust democratic system, I can only proceed with greater detail with the knowledge that there are numbers of willing people to take on board its merits. Furthermore, I don’t pretend to know the practicalities of parliamentary procedures (Cornlegend kindly keeps instructing me of this) so I am interested in knowing interested and willing observers to assist with the concept development.

    Cornlegend,

    I know I’ve been bold by saying ditch Labor Right and be brave Labor Left and join the Alliance. That was my dramatic emphasis for if an Alliance is possible, I advocate it to be Left and Centre Left and definitely not Right because I and presumably we, are seeking significant reforms in political policies and political structures in an opposite direction from the current foul neoliberalism we are suffering. Labor Right cannot be trusted to take us away from this current conservative, neoliberal position.

    Labor needs to change its rule A8 if it wants to stay relevant in the 21st century. It is very important that Labor makes friends with any of the true progressive upcoming parties and of course the Greens. It doesn’t mean they need to lose their identity, but they must be prepared to work effectively with other progressive parties that share common ground on policy areas and common philosophical ground.

    ByB again,

    ok, I took a breather and enjoyed watching Esther Ofarim. Thanks

    🙂

  77. cornlegend

    Backyard Bob,
    Here’s on to get the blood pumping :-}

  78. cornlegend

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith
    I find it a little uneasy labelling some within the ALP Left or Right, regardless of their affiliations..
    I more prepared to judge them on their actions .
    Chris Bowen, Tony Burke and Mark Dreyfus Jason Clare,Michelle Rowland , Ed Husic Sharon Bird , even Sam Dastyari have all put in big efforts in Opposition and they are right/Labor Unity as have Terri Butler, Stepen Jones, Graham Perrett, Mark Butler , Julie Collins ,Catherine KIng , Melissa Parke etc from the Left.
    Which of those right/Labor Unity would you exclude?

  79. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    cornlegend,

    that got my blood up more than it was already. That’s the message. Solidarity.

    Solidarity 21st Century style means alliances with other parties and political players with common ground allegiances. Therefore the Alliance means Left Labor, the Greens, the Progressive micro parties and the sane Independents despite their rough edges.

  80. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    cornlegend,

    most of those that you identify as Right/Labor Unity, I admit I respect for what I see them do and say. However, I don’t like the factional allegiance that they cling to, so that would need to change.

    Those you identify from the Left, I recognise their allegiance already and would welcome them. Except I hear Melissa Parke is leaving because she’s had a gutful of Labor’s neoliberal stance on asylum seekers and suffering people held in illegal detention in the gulags on Manus and Nauru. A good woman lost to conservative pragmatism.

  81. Athena

    Thank you BYB. It hasn’t been coming up on a google search. I get emails from the ALP too and it hasn’t been announced in any of them either.

  82. Athena

    “A.8
    (a) A person who is a member of another political
    party or one of its affiliated organisations
    cannot join the Party. Country Labor is not
    included for the purposes of this Rule.”

    Cornlegend, every party has a rule forbidding members to be members of more than one party at the same time. When parties register with the AEC, their membership list is checked to ensure that the members are on the electoral roll and not registered as a member with another party. There is nothing preventing a coalition of the left, apart from stubbornness.

  83. Athena

    “Labor needs to change its rule A8 if it wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.”

    They can’t, Jennifer. They are bound to that by electoral legislation.

  84. cornlegend

    Athena
    “every party has a rule forbidding members to be members of more than one party”
    I’ve pointed that out to Jennifer on numerous occasions .
    Again, my point is, you can’t cherry pick individual members from various political parties and bring them together under one umbrella/Alliance without ramifications, and most pollies I know wouldn’t risk that .

    “There is nothing preventing a coalition of the left, apart from stubbornness.”
    What/who would you determine to be the likely participants in this “coalition”?

  85. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Why call it a Coalition and not an Alliance? Do you want it confused with the numpties on the other side?

  86. cornlegend

    Athena,
    Just to clear one thing up.
    It’s not illegal to be a member of multiple parties, but if you’re registered for one, you can’t be used to make up the numbers to register another.
    As you point out however, all parties have by laws excluding dual party membership so joining multiple would possibly result in being a member of none eventually

  87. Athena

    A coalition can adopt whatever name it wants. I’m using the term coalition because it is a clearly defined term. Note that entire parties cooperate with each other, not portions of parties.

    A coalition government is a cabinet of a parliamentary government in which several political parties cooperate, reducing the dominance of any one party within that coalition. The usual reason given for this arrangement is that no party on its own can achieve a majority in the parliament.

  88. cornlegend

    Jennifer
    “Except I hear Melissa Parke is leaving ”
    you are right on that, but the reasons peddled are pure bullshit

  89. cornlegend

    Jennifer
    Hey :-}
    I’ll call it an Alliance :-}

  90. Athena

    “What/who would you determine to be the likely participants in this “coalition”? ”

    Likely – certainly not the ALP. They haven’t given any indication that they are willing to work with progressive parties.

    The Greens have said they are willing to work with the ALP. The Australian Progressives have policies that would fit in there, so too the Animal Justice Party. Quite possibly Nick Xenophon’s team could also work in this setting.

    I won’t hold my breath waiting for a coalition of the left. I think the ALP has strayed too far from its origins for that. It accepts donations from the most influential businesses in Australian politics. The SA branch has given a multi-million dollar contract to Ernst & Young, which donated to the SA branch and the Feds in 2014-15 (I didn’t check how many other donations E-Y made elsewhere), and is now busy destroying public health. They’ve been eroding various public services for years. Out of the mouths of various ALP politicians we hear neo-liberal concepts. They dehumanise asylum seekers like the Liberals do. Actually I don’t even think of them as progressive. Given some of the recent comments about lefties, made by staunch ALP supporters, it seems some of their voters don’t consider them to be progressive either.

  91. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I like the term Alliance coz it is different from the LNPees.

    I hear what you’re saying, Athena about Labor SA and that’s why they wouldn’t fit in.The anti-asylum seeker speak is also despicable Labor policy..

    However, some aspects of Labor are still worth working with for practical reasons because we need their numbers brawn. Likewise, they need our alliance because their disappointing policies for vulnerable people on welfare and in detention have lost a lot of support. Labor is beginning to realise it needs to make friends even if it doesn’t let on publicly.

  92. cornlegend

    Athena
    Jennifer Meyer-SmithMay 4, 2016 at 9:03 pm

    “because she’s had a gutful of Labor’s neoliberal stance on asylum seekers and suffering people held in illegal detention in the gulags on Manus and Nauru. A good woman lost to conservative pragmatism.”

  93. Athena

    Not only has the ALP lost supporters due to inadequate support of vulnerable people, but those people are being sucked in by the Liberal rhetoric. People see taxes as pure evil, thanks to the Liberals. I even read an article in the Guardian this morning stating that Morrison’s budget was about creating jobs. FFS! It’s been proven before that cutting taxes for business does not create more jobs. But the average Joe falls for this nonsense. It amazes me that so many people can fall for the lie about the federal budget operating like a household budget, but they cannot see that when using those principles, a refusal to increase tax means that money comes from cutting services instead.

  94. cornlegend

    Athena
    The ALP, both Premiers, and Federal MPs have made it quite clear, no deals with the Greens
    “Quite possibly Nick Xenophon’s team could also work in this setting.”
    OMG, surely you jest in having them down as “Left”?
    As for political donations the biggest single donation by an individual was to the Greens and though they campaign against CSG they don’t mind accepting CSG developer donations
    As for the Greens turn to the right, do you blame Di Natale or the former Merchant Banker BHP and IPA employee Whish -Wilson for that ?

  95. Athena

    ““because she’s had a gutful of Labor’s neoliberal stance on asylum seekers and suffering people held in illegal detention in the gulags on Manus and Nauru. A good woman lost to conservative pragmatism.” ”

    Where is the quote from Melissa stating that as the reason she is leaving. She’s made no secret for a very long time that she disagrees with the ALP policy on asylum seekers, and she spoke out against it in her valedictory speech, but nowhere in any of those articles about her valedictory speech did it state that this was the reason she is leaving.

  96. cornlegend

    She said “family reasons,” the scaremongers said the quote above .

    JUst on your “Coalitions”
    You do come up with some strange pairings.
    Were you not aware the Animal Justice Party is one of the 40 or so Micro Parties and Independents who met in Sydney and Melbourne to plan an active campaign against the Greens?

    the Animal Justice Party actually had this to say

    “Support for animal cruelty potentially just got a whole lot worse with the changes to Senate voting arrangements

    The changes to the voting system recently imposed upon us by the Liberal and Green alliance means this record on animal cruelty by the Australian Parliament may get a whole lot worse.”

    http://animaljusticeparty.org/support-for-animal-cruelty-worse-with-senate-voting-changes/

  97. Athena

    “OMG, surely you jest in having them down as “Left”? ”

    I never said they were left and I never said they *should* be a part of it. They describe themselves as centrist and I know the candidate for Sturt and something of his own political beliefs. There’s a possibility that they could find some middle ground.

  98. cornlegend

    Athena

    “because she’s had a gutful of Labor’s neoliberal stance on asylum seekers and suffering people held in illegal detention in the gulags on Manus and Nauru. A good woman lost to conservative pragmatism.” ”

    Where is the quote from Melissa stating that as the reason she is leaving.

    She never said that, scaremongers did.
    That is what I was pointing out if you had read it

  99. Athena

    “Were you not aware the Animal Justice Party is one of the 40 or so Micro Parties and Independents who met in Sydney and Melbourne to plan an active campaign against the Greens?”

    I didn’t know about the meeting but I have read of their distaste for the Greens since the Greens voted for senate reform. Are you aware that they are seeking support for their animal welfare issues from the ALP and they see the ALP are more likely than the Greens to support animal welfare issues? In fact, there’s another reason why an “alliance” of the left won’t happen. Since the senate reform was passed, the AJP found another reason to dump the Greens – because none of the animal welfare bills they’ve put up have ever been successful. It hasn’t occurred to them that a) with small numbers, the Greens need support from other parties to get this stuff through so it isn’t their fault and b) no one apart from the Greens gives a rat’s posterior about animal welfare issues. The AJP is busy burning the very bridges it should be building. So long as we have centrist or left leaning parties who are willing to cut their noses off to spite their faces, there won’t be an alliance.

  100. Athena

    “That is what I was pointing out if you had read it”

    I read it, It’s not my fault it was an ambiguous statement. You just stated “the reasons peddled”, not by whom.

  101. Miriam English

    cornlegend, “Greens … don’t mind accepting CSG developer donations”

    I think you’ll find that’s wrong. I’m pretty sure the Greens don’t accept donations from corporations.

  102. Bighead1883

    Brilliant,best entertainment on the net this evening

    I never knew so many were adept a unicycle back peddling

    I rest my case on my earlier statements as some of you proved to be above and beyond

    Grand debate Cornie

  103. Bighead1883

    Miriam English May 4, 2016 at 11:58 pm

    The ACT Greens have and it`s on record in their newspaper,anyone can Google it,we all have

  104. Athena

    “As for the Greens turn to the right, do you blame Di Natale or the former Merchant Banker BHP and IPA employee Whish -Wilson for that ?”

    Cornlegend, what turn to the right would that be? If you’re going to say senate reform, you’re way off. Senate reform has been on the Greens’ agenda for 12 years. They’ve always been very open about that.

  105. Athena

    ” I’m pretty sure the Greens don’t accept donations from corporations.”

    No they don’t.

    Speaking of donations, I got this in an email from Catherine King today.:
    “The Liberals are backed by the big end of town and will pump millions into every marginal seat so they can keep cutting health funding. Last time they outspent us three to one. In stark contrast, we’re powered by people just like you.”

    The ALP is backed by the big end of town too, just not as much backing as the Liberal party receives.

  106. cornlegend

    Miriam English
    Greens “comfortable” accepting CSG developer donations
    The ACT Greens say they are comfortable accepting donations from coal seam gas developers AGL and Origin Energy, despite their stringent opposition to the industry.

    ACT Greens spokesperson Simon Copland said the Greens “felt comfortable” accepting the donations

    Greens “comfortable” accepting CSG developer donations

  107. Athena

    Cornlegend’s link is also from 2012.

  108. corvus boreus

    A record of the parliamentary voting of all parties on recent motions relating to the subject of ‘unconventional Coal Seam Gas extraction’ (aka ‘fracking’);

    https://theyvoteforyou.org.au/policies/18/detail

    I see some fairly consistent patterns of performance.

  109. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I said this @ 9.03pm last night, “Except I hear Melissa Parke is leaving because she’s had a gutful of Labor’s neoliberal stance on asylum seekers and suffering people held in illegal detention in the gulags on Manus and Nauru. A good woman lost to conservative pragmatism.”

    They represent my understanding based on what I’ve heard in my travels trying to gain audience with some of your esteemed Labor people, who did not deign to grant it to me, a mere non-descript constituent.

  110. Athena

    “The ACT Greens have and it`s on record in their newspaper,anyone can Google it,we all have”

    That’s from 2012. That is not the case *now*. Do try to keep up.

  111. Athena

    “A record of the parliamentary voting of all parties on recent motions relating to ‘unconventional Coal Gas extraction’ (aka ‘fracking’);”

    Thanks CB. More evidence that the ALP is in bed with big business. They need to change their slogan to “We put wealthy, powerful, business people first.”

  112. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Athena is right to identify Xenophon as a potential ally – where and when there is common ground. I know he is known to vote with LNP bills from time to time. But he is also a changemaker who knows how to grab the public attention and make some reasonable changes..

    SO Labor and the Greens need to grab his allegiance by negotiating with wins-wins for the diverse, representative spectrum of interests in Left and Centre Parliament and hence the Australian community.

    The same principles apply to the alternative, Progressive micro-parties and sane Independents. Make friends with them now because they are the future and with the passion, new ideas and energy now to put impetus into the changes happening for the better. Bernie Sanders is a great figurehead epitomsing the appetite people have for the change.

    SO it is incumbent on Labor and Greens to work together, harness that energy (as its spreading in Australia too) and use it for OUR common good.

  113. nurses1968

    Why are you so desperate for the Greens to get into an Alliance with someone, or it appears,anyone?
    I can understand the desperation for them to gain some cred, but the fact that 91.4% of the population don’t vote for them or don’t trust them should tell you something

  114. Miriam English

    cornlegend, the amounts donated by Origin and AGL are so small that they would appear to be an attempt to muddy the waters rather than any genuine donation. Also, the ACT Greens were out of step with the rest of the Greens around Australia in this respect… or at least were 4 years ago when that article was written. Note also where this is reported: Australian Mining. I’m sure they would be happy to use anything they could to undermine (sorry, pun intended) the Greens, who they perceive as their old enemy.

    It also occurred to me that the donations (small though they are) might have had nothing to do with fracking. The Greens are very influential in ACT, where it’s recently a goal been announced of 100% renewable energy by 2020 — that’s only 4 years away! I’m sure the electricity companies (Origin and AGL among them) will be eager to get in on that act. They will be able to generate electricity without paying for gas or coal — a very cozy deal if they can get it.

    Sooner or later those retarded morons who run the electricity companies are going to wake up and realise it is in their own best interests not to fight renewable energy, but that it is almost like a license to print money.

  115. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    nurses1968,

    I’m desperate for representative government. Aren’t you? Labor lost the right to that – alone – a few elections ago.

    The Greens need Labor and Labor need the Greens. We need them together with the Progressive upcoming micro-parties and sane Independents.

    We need them to be seen to be coming together within public vision so people know they have a combination of ethical, representative, egalitarian and diverse interests ready to represent them.

    Thanks by the way, for providing me with the opportunity to re-state this important message again.

  116. Athena

    “Why are you so desperate for the Greens to get into an Alliance with someone, or it appears,anyone?”

    Why are you so desperate for everyone to vote for the ALP?

    I don’t care whether there is an alliance or not. For me personally, whether the ALP or Liberals win, the outcome is the same. I am educated, I have a secure job that pays me to live comfortably, I live well within my means and I lost the only child I had in infancy. So i don’t have to worry about a future for my kids either. If the ALP wants to remain in opposition and losing progressive supporters, that’s their right.

  117. Miriam English

    nurses1968 conversely, why are you so eager to denigrate them?

  118. Keith

    We really need to be focusing on climate change.

    Near famine and low water resources in several countries

    Wild fires:
    Himalayas
    Alberta … Fort McMurray
    British Columbia … unable to help Alberta due to own wildfires

    The Arctic is in a mess
    Permafrost causing slumping in low lying areas … http://www.hakaimagazine.com/article-short/new-tipping-point-disappearing-arctic
    The Great Barrier Reef is in a tenuous situation
    The impact of greenhouse gases are still increasing … http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/aggi.html

    The COALition and Fossil Fuel Companies should be the target.

  119. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear Keith.

  120. nurses1968

    Athena
    I want a Labor government for the simple reason , there will either be an LNP Government or a Labor one
    It is pleasing to see you are so selfless in only having concerns at your own wellbeing.
    I tend to care for the aged, the homeless, low inome families and those that will be revaged by a continuation of LNP policy.
    Given your “selfless” nature,You would probably be better off voting LNP,
    They don’t give a stuff about anyone else either .

  121. Miriam English

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith said it perfectly.

    If you want a progressive change this election, kicking out what is probably the most destructive government Australia has ever had, then we need progressive forces to work together to defeat the LNP. Remember, we are not just trying to defeat Turnbull and his merry band of inept clods. That would be relatively easy. No. We will have to defuse the massive wave of nasty propaganda that Murdoch will mount through his control of 70% of Australian mainstream media. I seriously doubt Labor can do that by themselves. They will need all the help they can get.

    nurses1968, cornlegend, and Bighead1883, feel free to attack your potential allies, I’m sure the LNP will be delighted.

  122. Miriam English

    nurses1968, and yet Athena does care. You didn’t read her answer properly. (Rushing to attack someone tends to cause that.) She said why she didn’t have to care. The fact that she does care should clarify her motives: she wants a progressive Australia. She just has no selfish attachment to any party.

  123. Athena

    “Given your “selfless” nature,You would probably be better off voting LNP,
    They don’t give a stuff about anyone else either .”

    nuisance1968,

    The reason I am a progressive is because I do care about other people. I vote for policies that assist the majority of Australians, because to me that is part of what being a responsible citizen is all about.

    The party in government has no impact on *me personally* because I’m not unemployed, homeless, vulnerable, unable to afford healthcare, require education, receive any welfare and I don’t require any of that for my children either. If you want to interpret my independence as not giving a shit about anyone, that is your right and you’re an even bigger idiot than I previously thought.

  124. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear, Miriam.

    Well said, Athena.

  125. Athena

    “nurses1968, cornlegend, and Bighead1883, feel free to attack your potential allies, I’m sure the LNP will be delighted.”

    Indeed Miriam. If this is the impact of the ALP upon its rusted on supporters, then heaven help Australia.

  126. mark

    climate change,the freight train a coming.mark

  127. Athena

    It certainly is, Mark. The major parties are fiddling while Rome burns and the poor will be hardest hit by climate change. Joseph Stiglitz has been warning of this for a long time but neo-liberal pollies the world over are ignoring the message.

  128. Michael Taylor

    Hi Athena, off topic but I lived in the electorate of Sturt too before I left Adelaide.

  129. Keith

    Mark

    The freight train is at the Station, we have been seeing impacts which are increasing.

    http://www.climatecentral.org/news/climate-context-fort-mcmurray-wildfire-20311

    Quote:

    “Boreal forests are burning at a rate unprecedented in the last 10,000 years. A Climate Central analysis of Alaskan wildfires last year showed that the season is 40 percent longer than it was 65 years ago. Large wildfires there have also doubled over that time.”

    and

    “But wildfires like this can also wreak havoc on the global climate, too. Boreal forests contain nearly 30 percent of all the world’s carbon stored on land. As they light up, they send that carbon into the atmosphere where it warms the globe. Intense wildfires are already turning some forests into carbon polluters in certain years, creating a feedback cycle that drives temperatures higher and raises fire risks even further.”

    Alaska is mentioned in the article, in June of last year in a 24 hour period, an area just shy of 500,000 acres was burnt by a number of fires in Alaska.

  130. cornlegend

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith
    You may be pleased to know that I will be doing very little campaigning for Labor this election.
    I will be out on the road supporting the Alliance {of Micros and Independents, targetting the Greens}
    I bought a motor home, so me and some mates will be giving the Alliance a hand for the next 6-7 weeks
    So don’t be surprised if we turn up at a shopping centre near you :-}

  131. Miriam English

    Thankfully the people, and even businesses, are gathering momentum in the effort to fix climate destabilisation. I have a feeling that politicians will still be bleating about it being untrue even after it has hit really badly and most of the changes to fix the problem have already been taken by ordinary people and businesses. Most of the politicians seem to just wander around, lost in their own little bubbles. The more right-wing a politician, the more detached from reality they seem to be. When I look at the unbelievable clown-show that is conservative politics in USA I feel like I get a foretaste of what is happening here.

    Most of the LNP politicians have already completely lost it. I mean, Barnaby Joyce as second in command of our country? WTF??? The guy is an utter fruit-loop! Tony demented Abbott as (thankfully ex-) prime minister. Greg Hunt, the minister for mining the environment, named as best ever, without a hint of irony. One total dipstick (his name expunged from my memory) wearing a mining hi-viz vest into parliament to advertise his corruption loudly. A religious Hillsong fanatic in control of people’s lives. Other religious fanatics successfully scuttling a program to stop bullying in schools (what would Jesus think?). Defunding renewable energy development and research, and spending millions on trying to promote lies about windfarms making people sick, while coal, with its long list of proven ills, is touted as “good for humanity”. Trying to open more coal mines while nobody with half a brain will invest in it, because coal-mining around the world is collapsing due to lack of demand for the filthy product.

    Unfortunately a number of Labor’s politicians are being drawn into the same hallucinatory vortex, sucked in by money. Thankfully there are still many more Labor politicians who can see the blight that’s infecting their colleagues. Let’s all hope the good guys in Labor win and take back control of their party. It is in danger of being steered down a similar path to that taken by the LNP — more coal, torture the refugees, spy on us all, tax cuts for the wealthy, approve of the TPP, and so on. Please, Labor, don’t turn your back on your constituents. Work with the rest of the progressive parties to unseat the LNP and change the course of Australia in a more sane direction.

    We live at the most wealthy time in history, when Australia is now more wealthy that it ever was (well, things have gone downhill a bit since this LNP clown-car was voted in). We used to be able to afford free primary, secondary, and tertiary education, we had no trouble affording free health care for all, and social security had no difficulty maintaining dignity for those who would otherwise fall through the cracks. We are more wealthy than before. We can certainly afford these things now. We can’t afford not to! The only thing that has really changed is the level of meanness and short-sightedness among those in right-leaning politics, and the degree that it has spread, largely as a result, I think, of Murdoch’s hateful stranglehold on mainstream media.

  132. Miriam English

    cornlegend, “I will be out on the road supporting the Alliance {of Micros and Independents, targetting the Greens}”

    Good that you’ll be supporting the small parties and independents, but why targetting the Greens?

    Don’t tell me you were sucked in by Anthony Albanese’s dishonest campaign to smear the Greens. I was very disappointed by him. I thought he was one of the good guys. And then he rolls out like some bought-and-paid-for hitman pitching shallow lies. Very disappointing.

    The LNP will be delightedly applauding your decision to campaign against the most persistent thorn in their side: the Greens.

  133. cornlegend

    Miriam English
    NO, nothing to do with Albos campaign ,
    This is supporting the Sydney/Melbourne meetings where 10-15 Coalition, Greens seats to be targeted and minor parties run lower house candidates in marginal Coalition seats as well as the Greens-held seat of Melbourne and other seats the Greens could win. Under the plan, these candidates would preference Labor in the lower house instead the two other parties with main targets Melbourne, progressive minor parties will target Batman (Vic), Wills (Vic), Sydney, Richmond (NSW) and Grayndler (NSW).
    “[Minor parties] can punish the government and they can punish the Greens,” Mr Druery told Hack. “It may cost the Greens seat in Melbourne, it may stop the Greens extending their influence.
    http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/meeting-minor-parties-facing-annihilation-plotting-revenge/7224978

    Actually, I think you should look closer at the dirty tricks in Albos seat, I’ve been there a few times and saw first hand

  134. Miriam English

    Well, I give up. Seek to punish your allies all you want. Drive wedges between the progressive forces. Alienate them all from each other. Perhaps we’ll have another 3 years of this awful LNP government as a result.
    yay 🙁

  135. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Well said Miriam and Athena.

    Cornlegend, your tunnel vision against the Greens does not paint you in a good light and bodes badly for Labor.

  136. Athena

    I always say we will know them by their actions. The ALP seems intent upon proving that it is another conservative party.

  137. Michael Taylor

    I will be putting the LNP last. I’m fairly sure that most people here will be doing the same.

    The Liberal candidate in my electorate is Sophie Mirrabella. Happy to put her last.

  138. Athena

    Same here. Is Mirabella gaining any traction this time around?

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