Malcolm’s report card

July 1, 2016
Written by: Kaye Lee
77 Replies

Many people claim that, because Malcolm Turnbull is personally wealthy, he is more qualified to oversee our economy.

But if the ABS figures are anything to go by, Malcolm is taking us backwards at a rate of knots.

Over the past 12 months, trend employment increased by 217,000 – a far cry from the 300,000 jobs that the Coalition used to talk so much about.

The trend employment increase of 3,700 persons between April and May 2016 represents a monthly growth rate of 0.03%, which is significantly below the monthly average over the past 20 years of 0.15%. The rate of growth in employment for the past five months has been below this average.

“The latest Labour Force release shows continued growth in trend part-time employment with decreases in full-time employment,” said General Manager of ABS’ Macroeconomic Statistics Division, Bruce Hockman.

“This is the eleventh consecutive month with part-time employment increases of more than 10,000 persons; and fourth consecutive month with full-time employment decreases of more than 5,000 persons.”

This is reflected in the trend monthly hours worked in all jobs series, which decreased by 2.3 million hours (0.1 per cent) to 1,632.1 million hours. Hours worked have decreased by 13.7 million hours (0.8 per cent) over the last 6 months

By comparison, in September 2013, aggregate monthly hours worked were 1,645.8 million hours even though there were about 270,000 less people employed.

“The trend underutilisation rate, which is a quarterly measure that includes both unemployment and underemployment, remained steady at 14.2 per cent. We have also seen the recent trends of increasing underemployment for males continuing into May.” Mr Hockman said.

The trend underemployment ratio of employed males is currently at a historical high of 7.2 per cent.

More people are working less hours. With stagnant wage growth and calls to cut penalty rates and crack down on welfare, this can only result in even more people being reduced to poverty.

So much for jobs. How about growth?

The Terms of trade decreased 1.9% in seasonally adjusted terms in the March quarter following a decrease of 3.3% in the December quarter. From the March quarter 2015 to the March quarter 2016 the Terms of trade has fallen 11.5%. This reflects a fall in the price of exports relative to the price of imports.

Free trade agreements don’t seem to be working in our favour – go figure.

During the March quarter, trend Real net national disposable income was flat at 0.0%. Through the year Real net national disposable income fell 1.1% compared with an increase of 3.2% for GDP.

Whilst the reported growth in GDP is reasonably good in current circumstances, this has not “trickled down” – our standard of living has in fact gone backwards.

How about capital expenditure?

The trend volume estimate for total new capital expenditure fell by 2.8% in the March quarter 2016 while the seasonally adjusted estimate fell by 5.2%. (down 15.4% for the year)

The trend volume estimate for buildings and structures fell by 3.6% in the March quarter 2016 while the seasonally adjusted estimate fell by 7.9%. (down 18% for the year)

The trend volume estimate for equipment, plant and machinery fell by 1.0% in the March quarter 2016 while the seasonally adjusted estimate fell by 0.5%. (down 10.2% for the year).

It might be an exciting time to be Malcolm Turnbull – for the rest of us, not so much.

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FED UPJuly 1, 2016 at 10:20 am

Just goes to show what a lying manipulating person Turnbull is. Is he fit to run this country? In a nutshell, NO! We need a leader who actually cares about the people and this country. It’s not a personality contest! Maybe Shorten doesn’t have the charisma that Turnbull has, but as far as honesty goes, I’d back him over Turnbull any day!

David1July 1, 2016 at 10:48 am

Very fair and considered Kaye Lee, link posted to twitter. Thanks for all the great articles, over the past two months particularly, I have learned a lot

Amelie16July 1, 2016 at 10:50 am

It’s a pretty sad report card indeed. I for one have a great fear for what he will do to Medicare and how this alone will affect thousands of low income people in this country. You would have to be blind Freddie if you believe that he will not change Medicare for the worse. I have no doubt that this country is becoming more Americanised every year and if their health care system is anything to go by, it would mean disaster for families in this country. The amount of jobs he has axed since coming into office is appalling and wanting to cut people wages on weekend rates is a disgrace. He has been forcing people to work harder and be paid less for years under this government. It didn’t work under Howard and it’s not working under Turnbull. It’s time for this phoney to go and be replaced by someone who actually cares about this country and it’s people. Our young people need jobs, education and the likes, not the doom and gloom he has placed all Australians under, under his Leadership and Abbott”s. The only people the Liberals take care of are the wealthy and for that to happen he has to attack the poor and low income families to do it.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 11:03 am

Another sleight of hand is that government defence spending has been a significant factor in the claimed growth figures. The following relates to the June quarter in 2015….

“Had it not been for a surprise 41 per cent jump in government spending on defence equipment in the quarter, economic growth would have been zero. The Bureau of Statistics said the jump in defence spending was responsible for all of the 0.2 percentage points of economic growth.

Asked whether government spending was deliberately brought forward in order to forestall a recession, Mr Hockey replied: “I can promise you it wasn’t planned to be that way.”

Ongoing government spending also jumped by more than usual, climbing 3.4 per cent in the quarter, more than three times as much as in previous quarters. The Bureau of Statistics said this too was responsible for 0.2 percentage points of economic growth.

GDP per head went backwards in the June quarter, sliding 0.2 per cent, indicating that all of the economic growth was the result of population growth.

Business investment slipped 0.7 per cent in the quarter and 6.8 per cent over the year. Home building activity fell 1.1 per cent.

Australia’s export income slid 3.3 per cent.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/economic-growth-close-to-zero-as-living-standards-slip-20150902-gjdi0t.html#ixzz4D78znGP4

helvityniJuly 1, 2016 at 11:09 am

On the lighter side….

Annabel was so proud of the sweet Chocolaty slice (with some salty Miso mixed in), she had baked for Mal’s lunch.

Not much fuss was made of it by Mal, just a cool and dismissive ‘I can taste the Miso…’

KizhmetJuly 1, 2016 at 11:21 am

Thank you Kaye Lee. An utterly damning report card. So much for “good economic management”. I review the tabloids to see how many lies are being perpetrated by the MSM. Utterly appalling. The figures presented here tell the (sad and frightening) story.

FedupJuly 1, 2016 at 11:25 am

Why is it people start taking notice of increase spending by this government. You state that they have increase spending by 41% on Defence government spending, have you taken into consideration the amount of defence spending that was cut in the first place? To me all he is doing is replacing what he took in the first place.

PhilJuly 1, 2016 at 11:59 am

I have been standing in the footway of my local pre polling station for the past two weeks supporting the Unions by handing out flyers asking people to consider health care, school funding and hospital needs, and then to put the sitting Liberal member last on the green ballot sheet. The blue shirts of the Liberals out numbered all others due to a clique of first year university students on leave – allegedly paid although this was denied – churlish and childish in their inner group banter and extremely annoying to others alongside them with their aggressive regurgitation to every passing potential voter – “jobs and growth, strong borders” – Their goal was to swamp every voter with these three loudly claimed lies and multiple HTV so that most people got at least 6 of the same cards shoved at them. What stood out in these two weeks was the Liberals unwillingness to converse other than in repetitive slogans with non Liberals working alongside them. Very sad reflection on tier party.

If I had to describe what the Liberals projected through these two weeks of handing out voting cards, I would call it a “crude display of privilege”

townsvilleblogJuly 1, 2016 at 12:02 pm

A very fair representation of the facts Kaye, I sincerely hope everyday Australians take these facts into account before they vote tomorrow, and deliver us a new Labor government in spite of uncle rupie’s newspapers predicting a win for his LNP.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 12:08 pm

“It has been confirmed by the pre-poll workers in Tamworth that they have been flown in by Gina Rinehart from Western Australia to hand out how to vote cards for the National party,” Mr Windsor said.

“[The workers] are quite openly saying they were flown out here by Gina Rinehart,” Windsor told BuzzFeed News.
“They’re being paid $20 an hour, there is no real secret about it.”

It is interesting to note that there has been a big increase in pre-polling, particularly in New England, with Tamworth, who missed out on the NBN, leading the charge. Could this spell the end of Barnaby?

Jack RussellJuly 1, 2016 at 12:09 pm

Turnbull should still be serving a gaol sentence for the HIH/FIA/GoldmanSachs fraud – not swanning around our parliament looking for more opportunities to destroy someone/anyone/everyone else’s future in his pathological quest for personal wealth.

FedUpJuly 1, 2016 at 12:15 pm

Could Australia be that lucky?

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 12:21 pm

If you want to really get angry, the following very long list of the Abbott/Turnbull government’s “achievements” should do it.

http://thesauce.co/achievements-of-the-abbott-government/

FedupJuly 1, 2016 at 12:38 pm

I don’t need to see a list of the damages these bastards have done to this country. If they get it again you may as well kiss the rest of Australia goodbye because their won’t be anything left.

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 1:05 pm

The thing i hate about articles like this is that it presents facts and as i have said many times facts are irrelevant. People believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant. Politics is very much like religion. Getting people to convert is a miracle. You can always slant facts to suit your argument.

But i have never seen people more tribal than ALP/Greens supporters. It used to be 45% of the country voted for each of the majors with 10% being swingers. This has changed somewhat with a higher proportion of swingers

In 1993 Keating won an election with unemployment at 11%. Conversely Howard lost in 2007 with economic numbers the best for a generation and with economic numbers never to be bettered.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 1:12 pm

“as i have said many times facts are irrelevant”

Spoken like a true Liberal supporter.

From 2012….

The budget papers … show that the Howard government was the highest taxing government in Australia’s history. In 2004-05 and 2005-06, the tax to GDP ratio reached a record high 24.2 per cent. In addition, there have been only seven occasions where the tax to GDP ratio has been in excess of 23.5 per cent of GDP and all seven were under the Howard government.

In a similar vein, in the last 30 years, there have been 10 occasions when the tax to GDP ratio has been below 22.0 per cent of GDP and all 10 were under a Labor Government. To put simply, the Howard government was a high taxer, while the current Labor Government is a lower taxer.

In terms of government spending, there have been only five years in the four decades leading up to 2012-13 when real government spending was cut in real terms. None of those cuts were delivered by a Coalition government.

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 1:21 pm

No spoken like a person that understands human nature.

Anyway nobody has access to all the facts so the final decision is always a faith decision. You have a correct faith or an incorrect faith and facts are irrelevant.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 1:27 pm

Maybe for you Neil. For me, facts are ALL that matters. As I always said to my kids, tell me the truth and no matter how bad it is we can move forward. I do not make decisions based on “faith”.

Dan RowdenJuly 1, 2016 at 1:31 pm

Neil,

You are certainly a curious fellow. You say, “People believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant.” which for me carries a modicum of truth, but then you trot out a bunch of “facts” to support your view. You seem confused as to your true opinion regarding political philosophy.

There is indeed a sense in which “facts” are irrelevant, especially in aspects of political discourse, but that sense is not one wherein facts contradict an expressed view. In that sense facts become quite significant.

So, for example, in another thread you claimed our debt issue is a result of the reckless spending of the Rudd/Gillard regime. In other words debt is correlated to reckless expenditure by government. To be consistent with this view, you would have to concede that this Government has spent recklessly given it has doubled the debt and tripled the budget deficit.

You cannot coherently speak of runaway debt-trucks that are fuelled by reckless government expenditure if the fuel source has gone – unless you concede that this Government has also spent recklessly. Do you concede it?

cornlegendJuly 1, 2016 at 1:42 pm

Neil of Sydney
“as i have said many times facts are irrelevant”
To a degree I reckon you are right on this one NOS,
IF people bothered about facts Malcolm would be left in Opposition with a handful of LNP scumbags and would probably be considering a move to the Caymans to keep his eye on his money
Instead we have an almost certain return of the LNP tomorrow and even the pollsters have it 50/50.
Seems “facts” didn’t play a role in a bloody heap of voters decisions

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 1:48 pm

tripled the budget deficit.

Facts? The fact is Labors last budget was a $48B deficit. The Coalition first budget was a $38B deficit. The FACTS are the Coalition is running similar budget deficits to labor. They have not tripled.

Also they tried to do something about govt spending but were called mean and nasty. Govt sending cuts were blocked by the Senate

Kaye

I notice you have published a quote from the false prophet Stephen Koukoulas. I wish you lefties would get the story right. The story used to be the Howard/Costello tax cuts destroyed the budget leading to a structural deficit.

The new story is that Howard/Costello taxed the crap out of people and that anybody could run a surplus budget if they taxed like Costello

Which story is true?

PS I think Koukoulas is pure evil.

Möbius EckoJuly 1, 2016 at 1:58 pm

Yet Kaye Lee NoS loves to troll facts damning Labor and ironically ended his post against the posting of facts by quoting supposed facts. Because he believes they are positive for the Liberals and negative for Labor he has no problems with them.

Facts are modern history shows that Labor have always been better economic managers, whilst the Liberals have been the wasteful high taxing bloated governments.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:03 pm

I can understand someone who thinks facts are irrelevant feeling threatened by Koukoulas. Just like homophobes feel threatened by homosexuality. And fundamentalist religious people feel threatened by tolerance.

Must we go in circles on the deficit. As we said last time you tried this, the $48 billion deficit in 2013-14 was greatly affected by Hockey’s decisions like borrowing $8.8 billion to give to the RBA – a “fact” even you conceded. They have added to the debt. I don’t think this is bad per se but they are spending the money on non-productive things which is VERY bad. Increasing the debt for no gain is shameful.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:08 pm

For example….

2014-15 budget
The Government will provide Defence with $29.2 billion in 2014-15 and $122.7 billion over the Forward Estimates – up $9.6 billion increase on the figure provided by the previous Government.

2015-16 budget
The Government will provide Defence with $31.9 billion in 2015–16 and $132.6 billion over the Forward Estimates. This is an increase of $9.9 billion over the Forward Estimates when compared to the 2014–15 Budget.

2016-17 budget
The Government will provide Defence with $32.3 billion in 2016-17 and $142.9 billion over the Forward Estimates. This is an increase of $10.3 billion over the Forward Estimates when compared to the 2015–16 Budget.

In February this year the government released its Defence White Paper which will see us spend $195 billion over the next decade joining the Asian arms race.

$10 million splurge to rename Australian Border Force

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/10-million-splurge-to-rename-australian-border-force-20150825-gj7rz2.html#ixzz4D7vqCp2M

Möbius EckoJuly 1, 2016 at 2:09 pm

NoS and many other right wing nutters go on about the current government debt being because their draconian cuts and increased taxes were blocked. Another fact for you is that all those cuts and taxes would not have covered the increased spending it deliberately undertook and revenue it conscientiously forwent. That doesn’t even begin to address the fact those draconian measures would have taken billions out of people’s spending and savings.

cornlegendJuly 1, 2016 at 2:11 pm

Kaye Lee
if that was put up for NOS’s benefit, I think you wasted that typing fingers effort

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:13 pm

threatened by Koukoulas.

I am not threatened by Koukoulas. The man is a false prophet, a liar, a charlatan and one of the most dishonest humans i have ever read. No wonder you lefties link to him

– a “fact” even you conceded.

Yep I conceded that. Hockey added $8.8B to Swans last budget increasing Swans deficit. A little bit naughty.

What i do not concede is that the Coalition has tripled the budget deficit. The Coalition deficits are similar to what Labor was running. ie nothing has changed

Kaye

Which story is true?

Did Costello tax the crap out of people or did Costello tax cuts destroy the budget?

jimJuly 1, 2016 at 2:14 pm

And Labor is surging ahead in the AIMN poles on a two party basis Say NO to the TPP ffs,,

t’s “the least boring piece of news related to the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) in ages,” according to one campaigner.

Celebrities including Rage Against the Machine guitarist Tom Morello, punk band Anti-Flag, and Lost actress Evangeline Lilly are mobilizing against the 12-nation, corporate-friendly deal—which has been exposed by multiple analyses as threatening the climate, labor protections, access to medicine, and human rights—with a nationwide series of activism-fueled music events starting next Saturday in Denver.

“Working people everywhere have had enough,” said Morello in a press statement. “The TPP is nothing short of a corporate takeover of our democracy. That’s why people are rising up to stop it. Corporate lobbyists want to sneak the TPP through Congress quietly; that means it’s time for us to get loud.”

And get loud they will, with the Rock Against the TPP roadshow, jointly organized by Morello’s new label, Firebrand Records, and digital rights group Fight for the Future. In addition to Denver, the tour will make stops in at least four yet-to-be-announced cities.http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/15/time-get-loud-rock-stars-and-celebs-aim-amplify-anti-tpp-fight….
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2016/03/ohio_lost_112500_jobs_due_to_t.html

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:15 pm

Copy and paste from a previous post cornie. Over the last three years I have written about so many different topics that I rarely have to type from scratch. I will never change Neil’s mind but he is an excellent straight man.

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:26 pm

I will never change Neil’s mind but he is an excellent straight man.

Which statement is true? Did Costello tax the crap out of people like the false prophet Koukoulas says. Or did the Costello tax cuts destroy the budget?

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:29 pm

Neil, both are true. Tax to GDP ratio is one of those easily verifiable facts.

The income tax cuts didn’t come till 2005 and went mainly to the wealthy – 42 per cent of these cuts flowed to the top 10 per cent of income earners.

In 2007 he allowed individuals to put $1 million into superannuation tax free.and made retirement income tax free for over 60s.

He cut capital gains tax to apply to only 50% of profit made on investments.

Some of these changes, continued by Rudd, were structural.

tai discuss 5 changes made by Costello that “are worth $56 billion per annum. This is likely to be a very conservative estimate…The total is likely to be much more.”

http://www.tai.org.au/content/peter-costellos-five-most-profligate-decisions-treasurer-cost-budget-56bn-year

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:35 pm

If I was a cynical person I might think that Neil was trying to deflect attention from the failings of the current government

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:36 pm

Kaye

Anyway nobody has access to all the facts so the final decision is always a faith decision. You have a correct faith or an incorrect faith and facts are irrelevant.

PS Koukoulas is a false prophet

PPS There are lies damned lies and statistics

PPPS Swan could have changed the tax cuts instead Swan did this

http://www.budget.gov.au/2013-14/content/overview/html/overview_41.htm

The Government has delivered $47 billion of tax cuts in our first four years since coming to office. In addition, we have provided further tax cuts as assistance for the cost of living impact of the carbon price from 2012‑13. Even after accounting for the small increase in the Medicare levy in 2014‑15 we will be delivering total tax cuts of around $20 billion a year over the next four years compared to the 2007‑08 tax scales.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:40 pm

I think I said “continued by Rudd”…but back to the question at hand.

“Let’s talk about this so-called Medicare scare campaign,” Channel Seven’s Sam Armytage said.

“The Opposition has gone hard on this. You have promised repeatedly no changes. You have, however, committed to a freeze on the GP rebate. Can you guarantee our viewers … will not pay more to see the doctor due to this freeze?”

The Prime Minister was unequivocal: “Sam, absolutely.”

How can Turnbull promise that? He has no control over what doctors charge.

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:47 pm

I think I said “continued by Rudd”

Ay yes those damn things called facts. The FACT is that Tax cuts were a 2007 ALP election promise

By the way i just paid a visit to Youtube and was hit in the face by an ALP add saying Turnbull was going to privatise Medicare. Who would buy it? It loses billions of dollars every year

jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 2:53 pm

Neil, your viewpoint is becoming to weird to even bother using as a base for counterargument.

You dear mental child have no idea of context. I would have to assume you’ve been handicapped by religion and are now brain dead.

PS – dont get upset when your side is winning

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:53 pm

Yes they were. Rudd obviously felt wedged as did Howard with his “super for all” for the 1996 election. The difference was that Rudd followed through with his election promise, Howard only took a few months to renege on his. Just as Abbott did with his no negative changes to super promise.

Neil, you aren;t that naive. They have never said that Medicare will be floated on the stock market like they did with our profitable assets. It’s death by a thousand cuts – outsourcing bits (which has already happenned) and more user pays (which is also already proposed but being resisted).

The Department of Health recently announced that Telstra had won a A$220 million contract to manage the register for the National Bowel Cancer and Cervical Screening Programs.

the Government has been exploring the right future ownership options for Australian Hearing

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:58 pm

The difference was that Rudd followed through with his election promise,

No need to continue the tax cuts post 2010 election but Labor did

http://www.budget.gov.au/2013-14/content/overview/html/overview_41.htm

Look at the Table. Swan even has a column showing how much better his tax cuts were compared to Costello

Thems the FACTS

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 3:05 pm

I am more interested in this election, thanks anyway Neil. Aren’t you? What is your response about the death by a thousand cuts to Medicare? How can Malcolm make guarantees that doctors won’t increase up front fees?

jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 3:13 pm

[By the way i just paid a visit to Youtube and was hit in the face by an ALP add saying Turnbull was going to privatise Medicare. Who would buy it? It loses billions of dollars every year]

Lol. Administration fees child, somewhat like the utter and complete economic and organisational waste of Howard’s privatisation of the CES in support of his religious mates.

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 3:16 pm

thanks anyway Neil.

Sure you are

What is your response about the death by a thousand cuts to Medicare? How can Malcolm make guarantees that doctors won’t increase up front fees?

Have no idea. I suspect it is just another scare campaign by the masters of deceit

Anyway for the first time in my life i will not be putting the Liberals No 1. Turnbull loves himself more than he loves the country. he should be in the Labor Party.

My local member was one of the 53 traitors so this person will not be getting my vote. I will be voting Nats in the Senate followed by other Conservative parties, then the Libs. ALP/Greens will be last

FEDUPJuly 1, 2016 at 3:28 pm

Quite frankly, I don’t think it matters which party wins on Saturday. The damage done to this once great country is now irreparable. I have no doubt this lying Turnbull will attempt to rid us of Medicare, bring in an American style health system where only the wealthy will be able to afford. He will increase the GST after he wins the election. There is no going back from the damage done since bloody Howard and nothing will change under this leader either. Everybody talks about who is the most popular, Turnbull or Shorten. That’s how pathetic this election is really. Is anyone actually listening to the politics? I doubt it. It’s all about the leaders! Who knows, Shorten may turn out to be a good leader. A leader is as good as the job he does for this country. I mean this country, not every other stinking country around the world. Lets just start thinking about what is best for Australia! One last thing, I’m sick to death of bloody statistics! Stats doesn’t put food on the table and a roof over ones head! I’ll be glad when this pathetic election is over!

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 3:46 pm

Do you think the Libs would stand any chance of re-election with Abbott at the helm?

That is another reason to beware. Party faithful like Neil want to see Tony back. The international humiliation is more than I could bear, let alone the domestic mayhem that would cause. Imagine Christensen and Dutton and Abetz feeling even more empowered.

FED UPJuly 1, 2016 at 3:48 pm

Would probably be the first assassination in this country if they brought that lunatic back. Mind you I don’t think much of Turnbull as a leader either. To me it’s like you have to tell him what to say and do.

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 4:16 pm

Party faithful like Neil want to see Tony back

I am not party faithful. I am Australia faithful. But yes Tony won the 2013 election. It should be the Australia people who vote him out.

And the ALP does nothing but destroy the lives of people.

Thems the FACTS

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 4:18 pm

No Neil, that one is an opinion with no facts to back it up.

jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 4:20 pm

So, Neil is voting for BJ

What a fine candidate Barnaby is, as shown on Mad as Hell this week

Great choice for you Kneelie.

Matters NotJuly 1, 2016 at 4:21 pm

The number of ‘facts’ in the world approaches infinity. The number of ‘facts’ which may or may not be relevant to a particular ‘event’, ‘happening’, ‘argument’ or whatever also approaches infinity. To use a simple example.

There was a car crash yesterday in my street . (Fact.) It was almost sunset. (Fact) The wind was from the west. (Fact) The tide was high. (Fact) It was the end of the financial year. The share market rose 1.7%. The car was green. The driver was young. The car was old. Children were playing on the road. My wife was shopping. And so on ad infinitum.

All the above are ‘facts’. Some of the above are (maybe) more relevant to explaining the ‘car crash’ than others but they are all ‘facts’. Facts are a ‘dime a dozen’. While ‘facts’ are essential to a rational discussion, the citing of facts is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

In constructing an argument, people of necessity must ‘choose’ from this virtually unlimited range of facts. They do so on the basis of what they believe to be relevant. Of course, the relevance of particular ‘facts’ can also be disputed. The car referred to above was a Holden. For some that ‘fact’ is relevant, for others it is inconsequential. So even when ‘facts’ are agreed upon, the ‘meaning’ given to those facts can vary significantly.

One could go on, but a few comments on some of the above posts.

People believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant.

Yes, people do choose want they want to believe. In so doing, they often choose ‘facts’ that many others find irrelevant.

You can always slant facts to suit your argument.

Not sure that ‘slant’ is the best word here. But yes one can (and does) choose some ‘facts’ at the expense of others and one can also give ‘meanings’ to those selected facts, which are not widely shared.

both are true.

Yep! That’s where ‘meaning’ given becomes crucial. One final comment.

spoken like a person that understands human nature

‘human nature’ is probably the most ‘slippery’ in the social sciences because what is the ‘nature’ part and what is the socio-cultural part is almost impossible to tease out. What we can be fairly sure of is a human’s capacity to make or give ‘meanings’.

As for: Anyway nobody has access to all the facts so the final decision is always a faith decision. You have a correct faith or an incorrect faith and facts are irrelevant.

Some good points in that as well, but (perhaps) leads to the epistemological ‘problem’ of ‘valid’ ‘knowing’ and whether that should be via ‘faith’, ‘rationality’ or ‘science.

Best set of comments from Neil I’ve ever read

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 4:47 pm

Neil, both are true.

Yeah right. Costello tax cuts destroyed the budget and at the same time Costello was the highest taxing Treasurer in human history.

It is amazing how that story changed. For years the story was Costello tax cuts destroyed the budget. Now the next story he taxed the crap out of people.

paul walterJuly 1, 2016 at 4:55 pm

Back on topic, I think Turnbull a merchant banker, has the knowledge and soul of a burglar. People talk of his attributes, but my question is, to what cause are the attributes applied?

jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 5:02 pm

[How can Turnbull promise that? He has no control over what doctors charge]

SMH

“He later told reporters: “Doctors can charge what they like. If a doctor chooses to charge his or her patients $15 or $10 more or $20 more, that’s not because indexation has not resumed – it’s because they want to charge $15 or $20 more.

“He or she may attribute that higher charge to whatever they like, but they cannot credibly attribute it to not getting an extra 60¢ this year.” Mr Turnbull also reminded voters the bulk-billing rate was at a record high”

More deceptive phrasing from the LNP to fool the public from the contextual reality of the cuts.

Mark NeedhamJuly 1, 2016 at 5:20 pm

A real pity, that Bill has been bull shite-ing also.
Like Turnbulls rubbish, we can see when it is not so much about being untrue, but an out and out lie.
If Bill had entered the arena, as an honest trader and told us some truths, then he would be a shoo in.
Bill, does have some Truths, that will show him and Labour in a good light, doesn’t he?
Mark Needham

helvityniJuly 1, 2016 at 5:26 pm

paul walter, back to topic, Mal just wants to be our PM, nothing to do with you or me or anyone else.He’s sixty now, so it’s now or never.

This is what it is all about; born to rule , born to adulation, me, me, me…..

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 5:35 pm

He turns 62 in October. Would he back up again in 2019 at age 65 for another three years?

Damo451July 1, 2016 at 8:21 pm

Neil of Sydney.
You are exhibiting signs of mental illness with your ridiculous and inane posts ,have no fear ,even the LNP are unable to stop the NDIS coming to your rescue. Your posts on The Guardian website are also in the same vein.
PS Thanks jimhaz for a hilarious insight into the mind of legendary wordsmith Barnaby Joyce ,better known by his stage name ,Neil of Sydney.

Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 8:29 pm

For those who think the election result is a foregone conclusion….

There are four people in their early twenties in my house and we just had a chat. They were astonished to hear commentators saying it was a done deal. They said they don’t know anyone who is voting for the Coalition. They talked about discussions on facebook and at uni and amongst other apprentices. These are the people who would never answer a poll. They are more interested and aware about the issues for this election than they have ever been before. They are not enamoured with any political party but they have all already voted and the Coalition didn’t score a mention in dispatches.

Glenn KJuly 1, 2016 at 8:48 pm

The mainstream MSM editorials are backing the LNP on the basis of “stability”. What horse-shit and a complete con. Stability? That is Turnbull’s final week thought bubble which absolutely cannot be backed up by evidence of LNP actions, but still the MSM puppet his slogan. What crap. At any rate…..
I spent a total of 5 days handing out how to vote cards in Mackellar (Bronwyn’s old seat). Got to meet the Liberal candidate, meet Barry Unsworth handing cards for ALP, and meet a couple lunatic fringe right-wing conservative independents. All very interesting. As I was handing out cards for the Greens, the LNP and Christian Fringe Alliance volunteers wouldn’t talk to me. That’s ok. Some of the independents and ALP were friendly.
Without actually counting the numbers, I would suggest that close to 50% of the under 35’s voting early were going Green. The seniors, which by the way were most of the early voters, were I guess to be 70% LNP. This is in the bubble of the northern beaches of Sydney. Watch out for that growing demographic of the under 35’s.
This election is a long way from a forgone conclusion. I’m betting the LNP party will not win enough seats to govern. And won’t that be a relief!

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 8:57 pm

You are exhibiting signs of mental illness with your ridiculous and inane posts

What is wrong with my posts? I must admit since i started posting in 2007 i have almost never agreed with anything a Labor supporter says so i guess we have nothing in common.

I still remember one of the first things i was told. Unemployment went from 8% to 4% under Howard because he manipulated the way unemployment was measured. Introduced a new rule that you only have to work one hour/week to be regarded as employed.

Fact is the way employment is measured has not changed since 1966 and is the same in all OECD countries.

Large numbers of posts by ALP supporters are just factually incorrect.

Michael TaylorJuly 1, 2016 at 9:07 pm

“Fact is the way unemployment is measured has not changed since 1966 and is the same in all OECD countries”.

I’d like to see evidence of that.

Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 9:17 pm

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/0/FBE517ECA9B07F63CA257D0E001AC7D4?OpenDocument

KEY POINTS:

The ABS uses internationally agreed standards in defining unemployment and the key indicators have been measured in a consistent way since 1966.
To be classified as unemployed a person needs to meet the following three criteria:
– not working more than one hour in the reference week;
– actively looking for work in previous four weeks; and
– be available to start work in the reference week.
The ABS produces a range of measures, in addition to the unemployment rate, to help users understand the extent of underutilised labour supply, such as underemployment.

The International Labour Organization (ILO) defines unemployed people as those who are: not working one hour or more; and actively seeking work; and currently available for work. The ABS adheres to the international standards and defines unemployed persons as those aged 15 years and over who were not employed during the reference week, and;

Matters NotJuly 1, 2016 at 10:08 pm

Over to you, Michael Taylor.

Neil of Sydney has provided ‘evidence’ of his assertion. He has cited ‘facts’.

Of course, he is always ‘lacking’ when it comes to ‘causality’.

‘Facts’ aren’t ever his problem when compared to the ‘meaning’ he gives to same.

LOVOJuly 1, 2016 at 11:16 pm

WHAT 😯 😯 NoS presented an ‘FACT’ …….na….couldn’t be true…….I mean- it’s never happened before- ❓ …..must be an accident :/ …..mayhap NoS isn’t feeling well and slipped up…or mayhap NoS is feeling, somewhat, routed 😛
P.S. Oi NoS .. what’s does ya thinks about Tones mayhap ‘doin’ an Howard ..*sniggers*… and lose his safe Lib seat…now wouldn’t that be a LAUGH NoS…and oh what an LAUGH it would be ..a LAUGH that will give and give over time…just like ‘little Johnnies’ losing his seat still ‘gives and gives…ay NoS. 🙂 … 😆 😆 😆 😆
*waves* 😉

Matters NotJuly 1, 2016 at 11:27 pm

While ‘fact’ and ‘truth’ are usually conflated (NoS provides any number of examples), there are important distinctions between such ‘concepts’. I cite:

facts are those things which simply are or which actually happened: those things which cannot be reasonably questioned or disputed. But Truth is the value we assign to these facts. Truth is what we believe these facts mean, what they tell us or what we think they should teach us. Furthermore, what we see as Truth is dependent on what we view as being the source of Truth. This is the difference between fact and Truth.

Note the citation asserts: Truth is the value we assign to these facts. Yep, indeed the value we assign . No problem with that. But the author goes on and reinforces the point: Truth is what we believe these facts mean . Yep the author asserts that ‘what we believe’ is crucial to the ‘meaning’ we give to ‘facts’.

Note also the next bit: they tell us or what we think they should teach us. That’s where I disagree
Facts ‘tell’ us nothing. Facts ‘teach’ us nothing. There’s so many facts but so little ‘truth’. I offer NoS in evidence.

https://theoyl.com/key-concepts-2/holding/fact-vs-truth/

But it probably, Matters Not.

Florence nee FedupJuly 2, 2016 at 12:44 am

The PM and his ilk are handing health over to the private sector by slowly dismantling Medicare. This has been happening since Howard, continued on by Abbott, now Trumbull. It is IPA policy.

The cuts that Howard made, now this government is nothing more than moving government costs, debts to the pockets of the private citizen. The people pay either way.

It leaves families, people with less money to spend.

No consumption, no profits. Less tax revenue. Bigger deficit.

Kaye LeeJuly 2, 2016 at 7:42 am

Neil,

Your deliberate attempt to derail every single thread you have ever commented on to take us back to talking about your view of what happened a decade ago or more drives me bonkers. If you are unable to discuss this government then I would prefer if you didn’t bother as we have heard every single thing you have to say about Howard a kazillion times. It is irrelevant. Howard had a few decent Liberal members – they have all gone. I cannot think of one of the current lot I would even feed.

The Abbott/Turnbull government has been an abject failure and their “plan” for the future will be a disaster.

Neil of SydneyJuly 2, 2016 at 2:58 pm

The Abbott govt has not failed like Rudd/Gillard did. They have failed to clean up all the mess. But i guess it is impossible.

Rudd/Gillard started a runaway debt truck and nobody cares.

AS for mentioning Howard it was YOU who said Costello left a $28B deficit.I was just correcting your false statement. It was MINUS $28B. Minus means negative or less than zero. ie we had $28B in the bank.

I noticed you deleted my post because you did not want anybody to see my comments. In your eagerness to trash Costello you got your facts right (minus $28B) but your interpretation wrong. Minus $28B means money in the bank

Kaye LeeJuly 2, 2016 at 3:58 pm

Neil,

I made a mistake, acknowledged your correction, thanked you, and removed the post so I would not be spreading incorrect information.

Back to the present….

Now would be exactly the right time to be borrowing at record low interest rates to invest in things like education and infrastructure that bring a greater economic and social return than submarines and jet fighters and tax cuts for the wealthy.

But without real action to mitigate climate change, the rest becomes irrelevant. That alone makes voting the COALition out imperative.

Matters NotJuly 2, 2016 at 5:34 pm

KL, the biggest mistake you made was at 1.12 PM July 1.

Don’t engage! He comes from a position of ‘mala fides’.

It only takes one.

helvityniJuly 2, 2016 at 5:43 pm

Good advise, the best policy I have found when being attacked by trolls, they crave attention.

Neil of SydneyJuly 2, 2016 at 5:45 pm

Now would be exactly the right time to be borrowing at record low interest rates

You are insane. Now is the time to get out of debt before it is too late.

He comes from a position of ‘mala fides’.

Sounds like you were trying to make an intelligent comment but i did not understand. Please explain.

Neil of SydneyJuly 3, 2016 at 10:26 am

the best policy I have found when being attacked by trolls,

I am not a troll. I have been posting with some of these people since 2007. We used to post on Tim Dunlops blog.

But without real action to mitigate climate change, the rest becomes irrelevant. That alone makes voting the COALition out imperative.

Interesting point was made recently. Without coal you cannot make steel. It is not just the heat from coal but the carbon which becomes part of the steel. So not only do ALP/Greens want to destroy our second biggest export they also want to destroy our biggest- iron ore

Michael TaylorJuly 3, 2016 at 10:36 am

“I have been posting with some of these people since 2007”.

More like you’ve been copying and pasting since 2007.

Michael TaylorJuly 3, 2016 at 10:38 am

“Interesting point was made recently. Without coal you cannot make steel”.

It was YOU who said it. That’s far from interesting.

Kaye LeeJuly 3, 2016 at 10:41 am

I sometimes think you are being deliberately obtuse Neil. Inform yourself about alternatives.

https://frontlineaction.org/coking-coal-steel-production-alternatives/

Michael TaylorJuly 3, 2016 at 10:51 am

Kaye, he’s been deliberately obtuse since 2007 (that I know of).

Neil of SydneyJuly 3, 2016 at 10:54 am

Well your link makes it clear that you need carbon to make steel. It is just not the heat from coal. It is heat+carbon. Using wood instead of coal does not seem very practical.

Pissed offJuly 4, 2016 at 11:17 am

Bullshit Neil. At least the Labour Party care more about the needier Australians than the stinking Liberals who are aways trying to find new ways to bleed the poor to feed the filthy rich! The Labour Party at present are just upon the gravy train like all politicians when it comes to the bloody refugee crisis and the stinking GAYS! Bloody over both of them. They have to start caring for Australians NOW which both parties have failed to address! Unemployment, mental health, ETC ETC

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FED UPJuly 1, 2016 at 10:20 am

Just goes to show what a lying manipulating person Turnbull is. Is he fit to run this country? In a nutshell, NO! We need a leader who actually cares about the people and this country. It’s not a personality contest! Maybe Shorten doesn’t have the charisma that Turnbull has, but as far as honesty goes, I’d back him over Turnbull any day!
David1July 1, 2016 at 10:48 am

Very fair and considered Kaye Lee, link posted to twitter. Thanks for all the great articles, over the past two months particularly, I have learned a lot
Amelie16July 1, 2016 at 10:50 am

It’s a pretty sad report card indeed. I for one have a great fear for what he will do to Medicare and how this alone will affect thousands of low income people in this country. You would have to be blind Freddie if you believe that he will not change Medicare for the worse. I have no doubt that this country is becoming more Americanised every year and if their health care system is anything to go by, it would mean disaster for families in this country. The amount of jobs he has axed since coming into office is appalling and wanting to cut people wages on weekend rates is a disgrace. He has been forcing people to work harder and be paid less for years under this government. It didn’t work under Howard and it’s not working under Turnbull. It’s time for this phoney to go and be replaced by someone who actually cares about this country and it’s people. Our young people need jobs, education and the likes, not the doom and gloom he has placed all Australians under, under his Leadership and Abbott”s. The only people the Liberals take care of are the wealthy and for that to happen he has to attack the poor and low income families to do it.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 11:03 am

Another sleight of hand is that government defence spending has been a significant factor in the claimed growth figures. The following relates to the June quarter in 2015….

“Had it not been for a surprise 41 per cent jump in government spending on defence equipment in the quarter, economic growth would have been zero. The Bureau of Statistics said the jump in defence spending was responsible for all of the 0.2 percentage points of economic growth.

Asked whether government spending was deliberately brought forward in order to forestall a recession, Mr Hockey replied: “I can promise you it wasn’t planned to be that way.”

Ongoing government spending also jumped by more than usual, climbing 3.4 per cent in the quarter, more than three times as much as in previous quarters. The Bureau of Statistics said this too was responsible for 0.2 percentage points of economic growth.

GDP per head went backwards in the June quarter, sliding 0.2 per cent, indicating that all of the economic growth was the result of population growth.

Business investment slipped 0.7 per cent in the quarter and 6.8 per cent over the year. Home building activity fell 1.1 per cent.

Australia’s export income slid 3.3 per cent.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/economic-growth-close-to-zero-as-living-standards-slip-20150902-gjdi0t.html#ixzz4D78znGP4
helvityniJuly 1, 2016 at 11:09 am

On the lighter side….

Annabel was so proud of the sweet Chocolaty slice (with some salty Miso mixed in), she had baked for Mal’s lunch.

Not much fuss was made of it by Mal, just a cool and dismissive ‘I can taste the Miso…’
KizhmetJuly 1, 2016 at 11:21 am

Thank you Kaye Lee. An utterly damning report card. So much for “good economic management”. I review the tabloids to see how many lies are being perpetrated by the MSM. Utterly appalling. The figures presented here tell the (sad and frightening) story.
FedupJuly 1, 2016 at 11:25 am

Why is it people start taking notice of increase spending by this government. You state that they have increase spending by 41% on Defence government spending, have you taken into consideration the amount of defence spending that was cut in the first place? To me all he is doing is replacing what he took in the first place.
PhilJuly 1, 2016 at 11:59 am

I have been standing in the footway of my local pre polling station for the past two weeks supporting the Unions by handing out flyers asking people to consider health care, school funding and hospital needs, and then to put the sitting Liberal member last on the green ballot sheet. The blue shirts of the Liberals out numbered all others due to a clique of first year university students on leave – allegedly paid although this was denied – churlish and childish in their inner group banter and extremely annoying to others alongside them with their aggressive regurgitation to every passing potential voter – “jobs and growth, strong borders” – Their goal was to swamp every voter with these three loudly claimed lies and multiple HTV so that most people got at least 6 of the same cards shoved at them. What stood out in these two weeks was the Liberals unwillingness to converse other than in repetitive slogans with non Liberals working alongside them. Very sad reflection on tier party.

If I had to describe what the Liberals projected through these two weeks of handing out voting cards, I would call it a “crude display of privilege”
townsvilleblogJuly 1, 2016 at 12:02 pm

A very fair representation of the facts Kaye, I sincerely hope everyday Australians take these facts into account before they vote tomorrow, and deliver us a new Labor government in spite of uncle rupie’s newspapers predicting a win for his LNP.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 12:08 pm

“It has been confirmed by the pre-poll workers in Tamworth that they have been flown in by Gina Rinehart from Western Australia to hand out how to vote cards for the National party,” Mr Windsor said.

“[The workers] are quite openly saying they were flown out here by Gina Rinehart,” Windsor told BuzzFeed News.
“They’re being paid $20 an hour, there is no real secret about it.”

It is interesting to note that there has been a big increase in pre-polling, particularly in New England, with Tamworth, who missed out on the NBN, leading the charge. Could this spell the end of Barnaby?
Jack RussellJuly 1, 2016 at 12:09 pm

Turnbull should still be serving a gaol sentence for the HIH/FIA/GoldmanSachs fraud – not swanning around our parliament looking for more opportunities to destroy someone/anyone/everyone else’s future in his pathological quest for personal wealth.
FedUpJuly 1, 2016 at 12:15 pm

Could Australia be that lucky?
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 12:21 pm

If you want to really get angry, the following very long list of the Abbott/Turnbull government’s “achievements” should do it.

http://thesauce.co/achievements-of-the-abbott-government/
FedupJuly 1, 2016 at 12:38 pm

I don’t need to see a list of the damages these bastards have done to this country. If they get it again you may as well kiss the rest of Australia goodbye because their won’t be anything left.
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 1:05 pm

The thing i hate about articles like this is that it presents facts and as i have said many times facts are irrelevant. People believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant. Politics is very much like religion. Getting people to convert is a miracle. You can always slant facts to suit your argument.

But i have never seen people more tribal than ALP/Greens supporters. It used to be 45% of the country voted for each of the majors with 10% being swingers. This has changed somewhat with a higher proportion of swingers

In 1993 Keating won an election with unemployment at 11%. Conversely Howard lost in 2007 with economic numbers the best for a generation and with economic numbers never to be bettered.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 1:12 pm

“as i have said many times facts are irrelevant”

Spoken like a true Liberal supporter.

From 2012….

The budget papers … show that the Howard government was the highest taxing government in Australia’s history. In 2004-05 and 2005-06, the tax to GDP ratio reached a record high 24.2 per cent. In addition, there have been only seven occasions where the tax to GDP ratio has been in excess of 23.5 per cent of GDP and all seven were under the Howard government.

In a similar vein, in the last 30 years, there have been 10 occasions when the tax to GDP ratio has been below 22.0 per cent of GDP and all 10 were under a Labor Government. To put simply, the Howard government was a high taxer, while the current Labor Government is a lower taxer.

In terms of government spending, there have been only five years in the four decades leading up to 2012-13 when real government spending was cut in real terms. None of those cuts were delivered by a Coalition government.
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 1:21 pm

No spoken like a person that understands human nature.

Anyway nobody has access to all the facts so the final decision is always a faith decision. You have a correct faith or an incorrect faith and facts are irrelevant.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 1:27 pm

Maybe for you Neil. For me, facts are ALL that matters. As I always said to my kids, tell me the truth and no matter how bad it is we can move forward. I do not make decisions based on “faith”.
Dan RowdenJuly 1, 2016 at 1:31 pm

Neil,

You are certainly a curious fellow. You say, “People believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant.” which for me carries a modicum of truth, but then you trot out a bunch of “facts” to support your view. You seem confused as to your true opinion regarding political philosophy.

There is indeed a sense in which “facts” are irrelevant, especially in aspects of political discourse, but that sense is not one wherein facts contradict an expressed view. In that sense facts become quite significant.

So, for example, in another thread you claimed our debt issue is a result of the reckless spending of the Rudd/Gillard regime. In other words debt is correlated to reckless expenditure by government. To be consistent with this view, you would have to concede that this Government has spent recklessly given it has doubled the debt and tripled the budget deficit.

You cannot coherently speak of runaway debt-trucks that are fuelled by reckless government expenditure if the fuel source has gone – unless you concede that this Government has also spent recklessly. Do you concede it?
cornlegendJuly 1, 2016 at 1:42 pm

Neil of Sydney
“as i have said many times facts are irrelevant”
To a degree I reckon you are right on this one NOS,
IF people bothered about facts Malcolm would be left in Opposition with a handful of LNP scumbags and would probably be considering a move to the Caymans to keep his eye on his money
Instead we have an almost certain return of the LNP tomorrow and even the pollsters have it 50/50.
Seems “facts” didn’t play a role in a bloody heap of voters decisions
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 1:48 pm

tripled the budget deficit.

Facts? The fact is Labors last budget was a $48B deficit. The Coalition first budget was a $38B deficit. The FACTS are the Coalition is running similar budget deficits to labor. They have not tripled.

Also they tried to do something about govt spending but were called mean and nasty. Govt sending cuts were blocked by the Senate

Kaye

I notice you have published a quote from the false prophet Stephen Koukoulas. I wish you lefties would get the story right. The story used to be the Howard/Costello tax cuts destroyed the budget leading to a structural deficit.

The new story is that Howard/Costello taxed the crap out of people and that anybody could run a surplus budget if they taxed like Costello

Which story is true?

PS I think Koukoulas is pure evil.
Möbius EckoJuly 1, 2016 at 1:58 pm

Yet Kaye Lee NoS loves to troll facts damning Labor and ironically ended his post against the posting of facts by quoting supposed facts. Because he believes they are positive for the Liberals and negative for Labor he has no problems with them.

Facts are modern history shows that Labor have always been better economic managers, whilst the Liberals have been the wasteful high taxing bloated governments.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:03 pm

I can understand someone who thinks facts are irrelevant feeling threatened by Koukoulas. Just like homophobes feel threatened by homosexuality. And fundamentalist religious people feel threatened by tolerance.

Must we go in circles on the deficit. As we said last time you tried this, the $48 billion deficit in 2013-14 was greatly affected by Hockey’s decisions like borrowing $8.8 billion to give to the RBA – a “fact” even you conceded. They have added to the debt. I don’t think this is bad per se but they are spending the money on non-productive things which is VERY bad. Increasing the debt for no gain is shameful.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:08 pm

For example….

2014-15 budget
The Government will provide Defence with $29.2 billion in 2014-15 and $122.7 billion over the Forward Estimates – up $9.6 billion increase on the figure provided by the previous Government.

2015-16 budget
The Government will provide Defence with $31.9 billion in 2015–16 and $132.6 billion over the Forward Estimates. This is an increase of $9.9 billion over the Forward Estimates when compared to the 2014–15 Budget.

2016-17 budget
The Government will provide Defence with $32.3 billion in 2016-17 and $142.9 billion over the Forward Estimates. This is an increase of $10.3 billion over the Forward Estimates when compared to the 2015–16 Budget.

In February this year the government released its Defence White Paper which will see us spend $195 billion over the next decade joining the Asian arms race.

$10 million splurge to rename Australian Border Force

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/10-million-splurge-to-rename-australian-border-force-20150825-gj7rz2.html#ixzz4D7vqCp2M
Möbius EckoJuly 1, 2016 at 2:09 pm

NoS and many other right wing nutters go on about the current government debt being because their draconian cuts and increased taxes were blocked. Another fact for you is that all those cuts and taxes would not have covered the increased spending it deliberately undertook and revenue it conscientiously forwent. That doesn’t even begin to address the fact those draconian measures would have taken billions out of people’s spending and savings.
cornlegendJuly 1, 2016 at 2:11 pm

Kaye Lee
if that was put up for NOS’s benefit, I think you wasted that typing fingers effort
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:13 pm

threatened by Koukoulas.

I am not threatened by Koukoulas. The man is a false prophet, a liar, a charlatan and one of the most dishonest humans i have ever read. No wonder you lefties link to him

– a “fact” even you conceded.

Yep I conceded that. Hockey added $8.8B to Swans last budget increasing Swans deficit. A little bit naughty.

What i do not concede is that the Coalition has tripled the budget deficit. The Coalition deficits are similar to what Labor was running. ie nothing has changed

Kaye

Which story is true?

Did Costello tax the crap out of people or did Costello tax cuts destroy the budget?
jimJuly 1, 2016 at 2:14 pm

And Labor is surging ahead in the AIMN poles on a two party basis Say NO to the TPP ffs,,

t’s “the least boring piece of news related to the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) in ages,” according to one campaigner.

Celebrities including Rage Against the Machine guitarist Tom Morello, punk band Anti-Flag, and Lost actress Evangeline Lilly are mobilizing against the 12-nation, corporate-friendly deal—which has been exposed by multiple analyses as threatening the climate, labor protections, access to medicine, and human rights—with a nationwide series of activism-fueled music events starting next Saturday in Denver.

“Working people everywhere have had enough,” said Morello in a press statement. “The TPP is nothing short of a corporate takeover of our democracy. That’s why people are rising up to stop it. Corporate lobbyists want to sneak the TPP through Congress quietly; that means it’s time for us to get loud.”

And get loud they will, with the Rock Against the TPP roadshow, jointly organized by Morello’s new label, Firebrand Records, and digital rights group Fight for the Future. In addition to Denver, the tour will make stops in at least four yet-to-be-announced cities.http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/15/time-get-loud-rock-stars-and-celebs-aim-amplify-anti-tpp-fight….
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2016/03/ohio_lost_112500_jobs_due_to_t.html
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:15 pm

Copy and paste from a previous post cornie. Over the last three years I have written about so many different topics that I rarely have to type from scratch. I will never change Neil’s mind but he is an excellent straight man.
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:26 pm

I will never change Neil’s mind but he is an excellent straight man.

Which statement is true? Did Costello tax the crap out of people like the false prophet Koukoulas says. Or did the Costello tax cuts destroy the budget?
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:29 pm

Neil, both are true. Tax to GDP ratio is one of those easily verifiable facts.

The income tax cuts didn’t come till 2005 and went mainly to the wealthy – 42 per cent of these cuts flowed to the top 10 per cent of income earners.

In 2007 he allowed individuals to put $1 million into superannuation tax free.and made retirement income tax free for over 60s.

He cut capital gains tax to apply to only 50% of profit made on investments.

Some of these changes, continued by Rudd, were structural.

tai discuss 5 changes made by Costello that “are worth $56 billion per annum. This is likely to be a very conservative estimate…The total is likely to be much more.”

http://www.tai.org.au/content/peter-costellos-five-most-profligate-decisions-treasurer-cost-budget-56bn-year
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:35 pm

If I was a cynical person I might think that Neil was trying to deflect attention from the failings of the current government
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:36 pm

Kaye

Anyway nobody has access to all the facts so the final decision is always a faith decision. You have a correct faith or an incorrect faith and facts are irrelevant.

PS Koukoulas is a false prophet

PPS There are lies damned lies and statistics

PPPS Swan could have changed the tax cuts instead Swan did this

http://www.budget.gov.au/2013-14/content/overview/html/overview_41.htm

The Government has delivered $47 billion of tax cuts in our first four years since coming to office. In addition, we have provided further tax cuts as assistance for the cost of living impact of the carbon price from 2012‑13. Even after accounting for the small increase in the Medicare levy in 2014‑15 we will be delivering total tax cuts of around $20 billion a year over the next four years compared to the 2007‑08 tax scales.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:40 pm

I think I said “continued by Rudd”…but back to the question at hand.

“Let’s talk about this so-called Medicare scare campaign,” Channel Seven’s Sam Armytage said.

“The Opposition has gone hard on this. You have promised repeatedly no changes. You have, however, committed to a freeze on the GP rebate. Can you guarantee our viewers … will not pay more to see the doctor due to this freeze?”

The Prime Minister was unequivocal: “Sam, absolutely.”

How can Turnbull promise that? He has no control over what doctors charge.
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:47 pm

I think I said “continued by Rudd”

Ay yes those damn things called facts. The FACT is that Tax cuts were a 2007 ALP election promise

By the way i just paid a visit to Youtube and was hit in the face by an ALP add saying Turnbull was going to privatise Medicare. Who would buy it? It loses billions of dollars every year
jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 2:53 pm

Neil, your viewpoint is becoming to weird to even bother using as a base for counterargument.

You dear mental child have no idea of context. I would have to assume you’ve been handicapped by religion and are now brain dead.

PS – dont get upset when your side is winning
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 2:53 pm

Yes they were. Rudd obviously felt wedged as did Howard with his “super for all” for the 1996 election. The difference was that Rudd followed through with his election promise, Howard only took a few months to renege on his. Just as Abbott did with his no negative changes to super promise.

Neil, you aren;t that naive. They have never said that Medicare will be floated on the stock market like they did with our profitable assets. It’s death by a thousand cuts – outsourcing bits (which has already happenned) and more user pays (which is also already proposed but being resisted).

The Department of Health recently announced that Telstra had won a A$220 million contract to manage the register for the National Bowel Cancer and Cervical Screening Programs.

the Government has been exploring the right future ownership options for Australian Hearing
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 2:58 pm

The difference was that Rudd followed through with his election promise,

No need to continue the tax cuts post 2010 election but Labor did

http://www.budget.gov.au/2013-14/content/overview/html/overview_41.htm

The Government has delivered $47 billion of tax cuts in our first four years since coming to office. In addition, we have provided further tax cuts as assistance for the cost of living impact of the carbon price from 2012‑13. Even after accounting for the small increase in the Medicare levy in 2014‑15 we will be delivering total tax cuts of around $20 billion a year over the next four years compared to the 2007‑08 tax scales.

Look at the Table. Swan even has a column showing how much better his tax cuts were compared to Costello

Thems the FACTS
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 3:05 pm

I am more interested in this election, thanks anyway Neil. Aren’t you? What is your response about the death by a thousand cuts to Medicare? How can Malcolm make guarantees that doctors won’t increase up front fees?
jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 3:13 pm

[By the way i just paid a visit to Youtube and was hit in the face by an ALP add saying Turnbull was going to privatise Medicare. Who would buy it? It loses billions of dollars every year]

Lol. Administration fees child, somewhat like the utter and complete economic and organisational waste of Howard’s privatisation of the CES in support of his religious mates.
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 3:16 pm

thanks anyway Neil.

Sure you are

What is your response about the death by a thousand cuts to Medicare? How can Malcolm make guarantees that doctors won’t increase up front fees?

Have no idea. I suspect it is just another scare campaign by the masters of deceit

Anyway for the first time in my life i will not be putting the Liberals No 1. Turnbull loves himself more than he loves the country. he should be in the Labor Party.

My local member was one of the 53 traitors so this person will not be getting my vote. I will be voting Nats in the Senate followed by other Conservative parties, then the Libs. ALP/Greens will be last
FEDUPJuly 1, 2016 at 3:28 pm

Quite frankly, I don’t think it matters which party wins on Saturday. The damage done to this once great country is now irreparable. I have no doubt this lying Turnbull will attempt to rid us of Medicare, bring in an American style health system where only the wealthy will be able to afford. He will increase the GST after he wins the election. There is no going back from the damage done since bloody Howard and nothing will change under this leader either. Everybody talks about who is the most popular, Turnbull or Shorten. That’s how pathetic this election is really. Is anyone actually listening to the politics? I doubt it. It’s all about the leaders! Who knows, Shorten may turn out to be a good leader. A leader is as good as the job he does for this country. I mean this country, not every other stinking country around the world. Lets just start thinking about what is best for Australia! One last thing, I’m sick to death of bloody statistics! Stats doesn’t put food on the table and a roof over ones head! I’ll be glad when this pathetic election is over!
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 3:46 pm

Do you think the Libs would stand any chance of re-election with Abbott at the helm?

That is another reason to beware. Party faithful like Neil want to see Tony back. The international humiliation is more than I could bear, let alone the domestic mayhem that would cause. Imagine Christensen and Dutton and Abetz feeling even more empowered.
FED UPJuly 1, 2016 at 3:48 pm

Would probably be the first assassination in this country if they brought that lunatic back. Mind you I don’t think much of Turnbull as a leader either. To me it’s like you have to tell him what to say and do.
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 4:16 pm

Party faithful like Neil want to see Tony back

I am not party faithful. I am Australia faithful. But yes Tony won the 2013 election. It should be the Australia people who vote him out.

And the ALP does nothing but destroy the lives of people.

Thems the FACTS
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 4:18 pm

No Neil, that one is an opinion with no facts to back it up.
jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 4:20 pm

So, Neil is voting for BJ

What a fine candidate Barnaby is, as shown on Mad as Hell this week

Great choice for you Kneelie.
Matters NotJuly 1, 2016 at 4:21 pm

The number of ‘facts’ in the world approaches infinity. The number of ‘facts’ which may or may not be relevant to a particular ‘event’, ‘happening’, ‘argument’ or whatever also approaches infinity. To use a simple example.

There was a car crash yesterday in my street . (Fact.) It was almost sunset. (Fact) The wind was from the west. (Fact) The tide was high. (Fact) It was the end of the financial year. The share market rose 1.7%. The car was green. The driver was young. The car was old. Children were playing on the road. My wife was shopping. And so on ad infinitum.

All the above are ‘facts’. Some of the above are (maybe) more relevant to explaining the ‘car crash’ than others but they are all ‘facts’. Facts are a ‘dime a dozen’. While ‘facts’ are essential to a rational discussion, the citing of facts is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

In constructing an argument, people of necessity must ‘choose’ from this virtually unlimited range of facts. They do so on the basis of what they believe to be relevant. Of course, the relevance of particular ‘facts’ can also be disputed. The car referred to above was a Holden. For some that ‘fact’ is relevant, for others it is inconsequential. So even when ‘facts’ are agreed upon, the ‘meaning’ given to those facts can vary significantly.

One could go on, but a few comments on some of the above posts.

People believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant.

Yes, people do choose want they want to believe. In so doing, they often choose ‘facts’ that many others find irrelevant.

You can always slant facts to suit your argument.

Not sure that ‘slant’ is the best word here. But yes one can (and does) choose some ‘facts’ at the expense of others and one can also give ‘meanings’ to those selected facts, which are not widely shared.

both are true.

Yep! That’s where ‘meaning’ given becomes crucial. One final comment.

spoken like a person that understands human nature

‘human nature’ is probably the most ‘slippery’ in the social sciences because what is the ‘nature’ part and what is the socio-cultural part is almost impossible to tease out. What we can be fairly sure of is a human’s capacity to make or give ‘meanings’.

As for: Anyway nobody has access to all the facts so the final decision is always a faith decision. You have a correct faith or an incorrect faith and facts are irrelevant.

Some good points in that as well, but (perhaps) leads to the epistemological ‘problem’ of ‘valid’ ‘knowing’ and whether that should be via ‘faith’, ‘rationality’ or ‘science.

Best set of comments from Neil I’ve ever read
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 4:47 pm

Neil, both are true.

Yeah right. Costello tax cuts destroyed the budget and at the same time Costello was the highest taxing Treasurer in human history.

It is amazing how that story changed. For years the story was Costello tax cuts destroyed the budget. Now the next story he taxed the crap out of people.
paul walterJuly 1, 2016 at 4:55 pm

Back on topic, I think Turnbull a merchant banker, has the knowledge and soul of a burglar. People talk of his attributes, but my question is, to what cause are the attributes applied?
jimhazJuly 1, 2016 at 5:02 pm

[How can Turnbull promise that? He has no control over what doctors charge]

SMH

“He later told reporters: “Doctors can charge what they like. If a doctor chooses to charge his or her patients $15 or $10 more or $20 more, that’s not because indexation has not resumed – it’s because they want to charge $15 or $20 more.

“He or she may attribute that higher charge to whatever they like, but they cannot credibly attribute it to not getting an extra 60¢ this year.” Mr Turnbull also reminded voters the bulk-billing rate was at a record high”

More deceptive phrasing from the LNP to fool the public from the contextual reality of the cuts.
Mark NeedhamJuly 1, 2016 at 5:20 pm

A real pity, that Bill has been bull shite-ing also.
Like Turnbulls rubbish, we can see when it is not so much about being untrue, but an out and out lie.
If Bill had entered the arena, as an honest trader and told us some truths, then he would be a shoo in.
Bill, does have some Truths, that will show him and Labour in a good light, doesn’t he?
Mark Needham
helvityniJuly 1, 2016 at 5:26 pm

paul walter, back to topic, Mal just wants to be our PM, nothing to do with you or me or anyone else.He’s sixty now, so it’s now or never.

This is what it is all about; born to rule , born to adulation, me, me, me…..
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 5:35 pm

He turns 62 in October. Would he back up again in 2019 at age 65 for another three years?
Damo451July 1, 2016 at 8:21 pm

Neil of Sydney.
You are exhibiting signs of mental illness with your ridiculous and inane posts ,have no fear ,even the LNP are unable to stop the NDIS coming to your rescue. Your posts on The Guardian website are also in the same vein.
PS Thanks jimhaz for a hilarious insight into the mind of legendary wordsmith Barnaby Joyce ,better known by his stage name ,Neil of Sydney.
Kaye LeeJuly 1, 2016 at 8:29 pm

For those who think the election result is a foregone conclusion….

There are four people in their early twenties in my house and we just had a chat. They were astonished to hear commentators saying it was a done deal. They said they don’t know anyone who is voting for the Coalition. They talked about discussions on facebook and at uni and amongst other apprentices. These are the people who would never answer a poll. They are more interested and aware about the issues for this election than they have ever been before. They are not enamoured with any political party but they have all already voted and the Coalition didn’t score a mention in dispatches.
Glenn KJuly 1, 2016 at 8:48 pm

The mainstream MSM editorials are backing the LNP on the basis of “stability”. What horse-shit and a complete con. Stability? That is Turnbull’s final week thought bubble which absolutely cannot be backed up by evidence of LNP actions, but still the MSM puppet his slogan. What crap. At any rate…..
I spent a total of 5 days handing out how to vote cards in Mackellar (Bronwyn’s old seat). Got to meet the Liberal candidate, meet Barry Unsworth handing cards for ALP, and meet a couple lunatic fringe right-wing conservative independents. All very interesting. As I was handing out cards for the Greens, the LNP and Christian Fringe Alliance volunteers wouldn’t talk to me. That’s ok. Some of the independents and ALP were friendly.
Without actually counting the numbers, I would suggest that close to 50% of the under 35’s voting early were going Green. The seniors, which by the way were most of the early voters, were I guess to be 70% LNP. This is in the bubble of the northern beaches of Sydney. Watch out for that growing demographic of the under 35’s.
This election is a long way from a forgone conclusion. I’m betting the LNP party will not win enough seats to govern. And won’t that be a relief!
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 8:57 pm

You are exhibiting signs of mental illness with your ridiculous and inane posts

What is wrong with my posts? I must admit since i started posting in 2007 i have almost never agreed with anything a Labor supporter says so i guess we have nothing in common.

I still remember one of the first things i was told. Unemployment went from 8% to 4% under Howard because he manipulated the way unemployment was measured. Introduced a new rule that you only have to work one hour/week to be regarded as employed.

Fact is the way employment is measured has not changed since 1966 and is the same in all OECD countries.

Large numbers of posts by ALP supporters are just factually incorrect.
Michael TaylorJuly 1, 2016 at 9:07 pm

“Fact is the way unemployment is measured has not changed since 1966 and is the same in all OECD countries”.

I’d like to see evidence of that.
Neil of SydneyJuly 1, 2016 at 9:17 pm

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/0/FBE517ECA9B07F63CA257D0E001AC7D4?OpenDocument

KEY POINTS:

The ABS uses internationally agreed standards in defining unemployment and the key indicators have been measured in a consistent way since 1966.
To be classified as unemployed a person needs to meet the following three criteria:
– not working more than one hour in the reference week;
– actively looking for work in previous four weeks; and
– be available to start work in the reference week.
The ABS produces a range of measures, in addition to the unemployment rate, to help users understand the extent of underutilised labour supply, such as underemployment.

The International Labour Organization (ILO) defines unemployed people as those who are: not working one hour or more; and actively seeking work; and currently available for work. The ABS adheres to the international standards and defines unemployed persons as those aged 15 years and over who were not employed during the reference week, and;
Matters NotJuly 1, 2016 at 10:08 pm

Over to you, Michael Taylor.

Neil of Sydney has provided ‘evidence’ of his assertion. He has cited ‘facts’.

Of course, he is always ‘lacking’ when it comes to ‘causality’.

‘Facts’ aren’t ever his problem when compared to the ‘meaning’ he gives to same.
LOVOJuly 1, 2016 at 11:16 pm

WHAT 😯 😯 NoS presented an ‘FACT’ …….na….couldn’t be true…….I mean- it’s never happened before- ❓ …..must be an accident :/ …..mayhap NoS isn’t feeling well and slipped up…or mayhap NoS is feeling, somewhat, routed 😛
P.S. Oi NoS .. what’s does ya thinks about Tones mayhap ‘doin’ an Howard ..*sniggers*… and lose his safe Lib seat…now wouldn’t that be a LAUGH NoS…and oh what an LAUGH it would be ..a LAUGH that will give and give over time…just like ‘little Johnnies’ losing his seat still ‘gives and gives…ay NoS. 🙂 … 😆 😆 😆 😆
*waves* 😉
Matters NotJuly 1, 2016 at 11:27 pm

While ‘fact’ and ‘truth’ are usually conflated (NoS provides any number of examples), there are important distinctions between such ‘concepts’. I cite:

facts are those things which simply are or which actually happened: those things which cannot be reasonably questioned or disputed. But Truth is the value we assign to these facts. Truth is what we believe these facts mean, what they tell us or what we think they should teach us. Furthermore, what we see as Truth is dependent on what we view as being the source of Truth. This is the difference between fact and Truth.

Note the citation asserts: Truth is the value we assign to these facts. Yep, indeed the value we assign . No problem with that. But the author goes on and reinforces the point: Truth is what we believe these facts mean . Yep the author asserts that ‘what we believe’ is crucial to the ‘meaning’ we give to ‘facts’.

Note also the next bit: they tell us or what we think they should teach us. That’s where I disagree
Facts ‘tell’ us nothing. Facts ‘teach’ us nothing. There’s so many facts but so little ‘truth’. I offer NoS in evidence.

https://theoyl.com/key-concepts-2/holding/fact-vs-truth/

But it probably, Matters Not.
Florence nee FedupJuly 2, 2016 at 12:44 am

The PM and his ilk are handing health over to the private sector by slowly dismantling Medicare. This has been happening since Howard, continued on by Abbott, now Trumbull. It is IPA policy.

The cuts that Howard made, now this government is nothing more than moving government costs, debts to the pockets of the private citizen. The people pay either way.

It leaves families, people with less money to spend.

No consumption, no profits. Less tax revenue. Bigger deficit.
Kaye LeeJuly 2, 2016 at 7:42 am

Neil,

Your deliberate attempt to derail every single thread you have ever commented on to take us back to talking about your view of what happened a decade ago or more drives me bonkers. If you are unable to discuss this government then I would prefer if you didn’t bother as we have heard every single thing you have to say about Howard a kazillion times. It is irrelevant. Howard had a few decent Liberal members – they have all gone. I cannot think of one of the current lot I would even feed.

The Abbott/Turnbull government has been an abject failure and their “plan” for the future will be a disaster.
Neil of SydneyJuly 2, 2016 at 2:58 pm

The Abbott govt has not failed like Rudd/Gillard did. They have failed to clean up all the mess. But i guess it is impossible.

Rudd/Gillard started a runaway debt truck and nobody cares.

AS for mentioning Howard it was YOU who said Costello left a $28B deficit.I was just correcting your false statement. It was MINUS $28B. Minus means negative or less than zero. ie we had $28B in the bank.

I noticed you deleted my post because you did not want anybody to see my comments. In your eagerness to trash Costello you got your facts right (minus $28B) but your interpretation wrong. Minus $28B means money in the bank
Kaye LeeJuly 2, 2016 at 3:58 pm

Neil,

I made a mistake, acknowledged your correction, thanked you, and removed the post so I would not be spreading incorrect information.

Back to the present….

Now would be exactly the right time to be borrowing at record low interest rates to invest in things like education and infrastructure that bring a greater economic and social return than submarines and jet fighters and tax cuts for the wealthy.

But without real action to mitigate climate change, the rest becomes irrelevant. That alone makes voting the COALition out imperative.
Matters NotJuly 2, 2016 at 5:34 pm

KL, the biggest mistake you made was at 1.12 PM July 1.

Don’t engage! He comes from a position of ‘mala fides’.

It only takes one.
helvityniJuly 2, 2016 at 5:43 pm

Good advise, the best policy I have found when being attacked by trolls, they crave attention.
Neil of SydneyJuly 2, 2016 at 5:45 pm

Now would be exactly the right time to be borrowing at record low interest rates

You are insane. Now is the time to get out of debt before it is too late.

He comes from a position of ‘mala fides’.

Sounds like you were trying to make an intelligent comment but i did not understand. Please explain.
Neil of SydneyJuly 3, 2016 at 10:26 am

the best policy I have found when being attacked by trolls,

I am not a troll. I have been posting with some of these people since 2007. We used to post on Tim Dunlops blog.

But without real action to mitigate climate change, the rest becomes irrelevant. That alone makes voting the COALition out imperative.

Interesting point was made recently. Without coal you cannot make steel. It is not just the heat from coal but the carbon which becomes part of the steel. So not only do ALP/Greens want to destroy our second biggest export they also want to destroy our biggest- iron ore
Michael TaylorJuly 3, 2016 at 10:36 am

“I have been posting with some of these people since 2007”.

More like you’ve been copying and pasting since 2007.
Michael TaylorJuly 3, 2016 at 10:38 am

“Interesting point was made recently. Without coal you cannot make steel”.

It was YOU who said it. That’s far from interesting.
Kaye LeeJuly 3, 2016 at 10:41 am

I sometimes think you are being deliberately obtuse Neil. Inform yourself about alternatives.

https://frontlineaction.org/coking-coal-steel-production-alternatives/
Michael TaylorJuly 3, 2016 at 10:51 am

Kaye, he’s been deliberately obtuse since 2007 (that I know of).
Neil of SydneyJuly 3, 2016 at 10:54 am

Well your link makes it clear that you need carbon to make steel. It is just not the heat from coal. It is heat+carbon. Using wood instead of coal does not seem very practical.
Pissed offJuly 4, 2016 at 11:17 am

Bullshit Neil. At least the Labour Party care more about the needier Australians than the stinking Liberals who are aways trying to find new ways to bleed the poor to feed the filthy rich! The Labour Party at present are just upon the gravy train like all politicians when it comes to the bloody refugee crisis and the stinking GAYS! Bloody over both of them. They have to start caring for Australians NOW which both parties have failed to address! Unemployment, mental health, ETC ETC

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