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My generation are a bunch of hypocrites when it comes to political correctness

According to a recent survey commissioned by Australian Seniors Insurance Agency, 86 per cent of people over 50 believed “having to be politically correct all the time” was ruining society, and 86.6 per cent said it was “inauthentic”.

The first thing that struck me when reading that was why an insurance agency would be asking that question.

The second was that my generation are a bunch of hypocrites.

The argument put forward against political correctness is that it stifles free speech, that we can’t discuss important issues for fear of offending someone, that we can’t pass off stereotypical insults as humour.

These same people who find political correctness such a burden are the ones who scream blue murder if anyone suggests it might be a good idea to move Australia Day from the day when Terra Nullius was appropriated by an invading force.

As these people solemnly declare Lest We Forget on ANZAC Day, anyone who dares to mention the tragedy of war, or asks that we remember today’s victims, will be mercilessly hounded.

Discussion about changing our flag from a representation of our colonial past is howled down. Anyone who disrespects the flag in any way feels the fury of those wearing Australian flag thongs and singlets.

Saying Happy Holidays to children departing for the Easter or Christmas break unleashes an enormous backlash from grandparents who want Easter hat parades and Christmas carols to be compulsory.

And woe betide anyone who doesn’t stand for the National Anthem.

Apparently correctness only becomes political when speaking about the less powerful. Any questioning of adherence to the traditions of the past is quashed.

As people criticise Islam for oppressing women, they accuse those who speak about female discrimination in our society of playing the gender card or of being ‘feminists’, like that is a bad thing.

Any talk about the inequality that is such a drain on our economy and a blight on our society is met with cries of class warfare and the politics of envy.

Any attempt to protect the environment is condemned as green lawfare or even worse, socialism.

Calls for marriage equality are spun as an attack on religious freedom and, even more bizarrely, on freedom of speech.

Should marriage equality be passed into legislation, the Catholic Church want the right to sack any employee who marries their same-sex partner, just as the public service used to sack women when they got married.

People want to reserve marriage for heterosexuals but if you try to reserve computers bought with Indigenous grant money for Indigenous students, all hell breaks loose.

As I listened to John Eales’ regret at having turned his back on the All Blacks doing the haka, I thought about the importance of showing respect.

As I read cries for help from those incarcerated on Manus and Nauru, I felt heart wrenching empathy for these people whose lives have been destroyed by politics in both their homelands and here.

As I read the list of female Muslim world leaders, I wonder about the calls to free Muslim women by people who treated our first female leader with such disrespect. It is unfathomable that the supposed bastion of freedom and opportunity, the US, has never had a female leader.

The article quoted an interview with 55 year old Bathurst teacher Vicki Evans who says she’s constantly being told off by her three children, all in their 20s, for opinions they say she shouldn’t be allowed to express.

Ms Evans says that her children’s sensitivities are clearly not a product of her parenting, but blames universities and television for encouraging political correctness

“You can’t say anything that’s offensive and that could be deemed to label anyone. You have to be always aware of perceptions, apparently.”

Our children have grown up in a multicultural society, a society where women have control over their own reproduction and are not confined to gender-based roles, a society where homosexuality is not hidden away in a closet, a society where Aboriginal descent is not a shameful secret. Our children come from an ethnic mix which is less concerned with the symbolism of our past and more concerned with empathy and tolerance. Religion plays less of a role in their lives than it did in their grandparents’.

Schools work tirelessly against bullying while the children’s grandparents fight for the right to be able to offend, insult and humiliate people for who they are.

Programs to increase understanding and acceptance of diversity, like the Safe Schools program, are reviled as sexual grooming and social engineering. Grandparents who grew up when homosexuality was illegal think their grandchildren must not even speak about it lest they become somehow infected by the disease.

Endless research has shown the harm caused by exclusion and isolation, the stultifying consequences of low self-esteem, the anguish of depression and mental ill health.

The grandparents of the world should be the nurturers, the carers, the protectors of peace and the facilitators of the future. Instead, we have perverted the noble fight for freedom and inclusion into a defence of a past characterised by war, intolerance, hatred and division. Instead of sowing seeds that will benefit others, we are greedy and selfish, wanting to protect our privilege.

Instead of belittling the political correctness of Gen Y, we should recognise that our children are better people than us and should be applauded for their enlightenment, not dragged backwards by their grandparents’ ignorance and fear of change.

 

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164 comments

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  1. Jack Straw

    Yes; they still want to be able to call someone a Black C in the name of free speech.

  2. stephengb2014

    You know Kaye Lee,
    You really really should consider becoming a parliamentarian.

    I agree whole heartedly, I am 70 in Dec and I often hear the baby boomers unjustly decry the Gen Y in particular, but my experience is that they are a lot better educated than we were at a similar age, and display a remarkable wisdom also for their age.

    Some baby boomers expect a young man or woman 20 something, to have the wisdom of 60 or 70 years. Clearly it is simply not possible to be experienced without the experience.

    I note however that many young people listen more than we think.

    What a wonderfull world they will inherit once we baby boomers (or Gen X) stop destroying the planet.

    S G B

  3. Möbius Ecko

    Good stuff Kaye Lee.

  4. Johno

    Well said Kaye. One statement that usually gets my goat is ‘ Oh, that is so unaustralian ‘

  5. Wayne Turner

    Spot on article. Political Correctness is just a two word empty insult slogan,used by people with no argument.Plus ironically to shut down debate. it was made popular in Australia by the overrated fraud John Howard.

  6. kathysutherland2013

    When I was young (many years ago!) there was no such thing as “political correctness.” We called it respect for others.

  7. Presser#1

    Too right, kathysutherland2013. I am elderly and find that modelling good manners for my grandchildren is particularly difficult when they see so many of my elderly peers who think that their age gives them license to be rude. Or perhaps they were always like that? What is now labelled “political correctness” used to be called ” commen decency”.

  8. diannaart

    Kaye Lee

    Thank you.

    I wish we could scrub “political correctness” from the lexicon – it is a rigid, autocratic term which does not encompass courtesy or respect, it is a term which invites mockery and rebellion.

    “Courtesy works both ways”, I said to the man loaded up with parcels, as I held the door for him.

    “Do you talk about your sister that way?”, to a male who was listing the ways he could possibly use to f#ck someone whose job meant she was in the media spotlight, someone he didn’t even like (or respect).

    Of course, we cannot control what others say, all we can do is ask if you want to be treated with respect, it has to start somewhere. Respect does not have to be earned – although it may have to be re-earned when lost due to harm caused by one to another – that’s what apologies are for, although there is no point in apologising if you don’t understand the error. Does Tony Abbott apologise to his sister after a day of mouthing off against gays?

    There is an old rule – very old because it predates Christianity, despite Xtian claims to the contrary, it is called the golden rule and goes something like this:

    “If you don’t want people beating up on you, don’t beat up on other people.”

    Cheers

  9. Kyran

    It seems fair to note that, in my experience, hypocrisy is not an exclusive property of an age set. Well, no more than intellect. Or reason. Or compassion. Or experience.
    The only thing exclusive to an age set is age. Whether it be young or old, the age is the determinant, and values such as intellect, reason, compassion, experience are mere sub-sets.
    “As I read cries for help from those incarcerated on Manus and Nauru, I felt heart wrenching empathy for these people whose lives have been destroyed by politics in both their homelands and here.”
    It cannot help but be noted that Nauru is a ‘christian’ nation. That is cited as the reason that abortion is illegal. Not so much that their legal system is based on the Queensland Crimes Act.
    There are women on Nauru seeking terminations. Right now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/21/three-pregnant-refugees-and-nearly-50-others-denied-medical-transfers-from-nauru

    https://asiancorrespondent.com/2017/08/australia-pregnant-refugees-abortions-nauru/

    The dogs, dutton and adeang, devout ‘christians’, would prefer their christian values are protected. Those reliant on their christian values are, apparently, fodder for the christian cannon. There can be no canon law without a cannon, apparently.
    Without detracting in any way from your article on so many issues, it seems inescapable that the refugee situation is both a microcosm and a confluence of so many issues. Our ‘leaders’, mostly devout christians, have no problem destroying lives, bodies, minds, souls. Whatever. All the while screaming that they have protected their christian values.
    Apparently, their christian values are politically correct, insofar as they advance their ‘political’ careers and disallow any ‘correction’.
    Thank you Ms Lee and commenters. Take care

  10. diannaart

    Well said and all too true, Kyran.

  11. Harquebus

    I was never going to join that bra discussion. Noooo waaaay.

  12. Kaye Lee

    “hypocrisy is not an exclusive property of an age set.”

    The fact that so many of we oldies are having this discussion lends credence to your view Kyran but I expect more from people who have experienced so much. I remember the certainty of youth. I now understand the only certainty is that I will always have more to learn.

    Disturbingly, “The data also indicated that Aussies grew less concerned about social norms and pleasing others as they grew older.
    Almost a third (31 per cent) said they no longer cared about social norms or pleasing others.”

    If that related to our ridiculous addiction to beauty I would applaud it but, as we know, people spend a fortune trying to stem the signs of aging so I would say their self-appraisal is flawed. Many of my generation strive to please others with their look or impress them with their wealth and its accoutrements.

    Stripping away the filters of propriety are often a symptom of dementia.

  13. jimhaz

    Nope “common decency” and “respect for others” is a different thing than political correctness.

    Political correctness attacks the identity of the majority. It is an insistence that people change to be followers of progressive social trends when they have no desire or need to. It is rejected as it is a form of shutting down one’s learnt personality and communication style. In males it is also an attack on their masculinity. Progressive PCism is almost entirely a feminine minded viewpoint.

    Were there no social media things would progress more smoothly, as it would not be so in your face. Social media and its affect on MSM gives the most polarised viewpoints both SJW PC or Anti-SJW PC a platform to stand on, which unfortunately makes the middle ground defensive and irritated.

  14. Kaye Lee

    “Political correctness attacks the identity of the majority”

    I have found those who are secure in their identity much more able to tolerate difference.

    “It is an insistence that people change”

    Only if those people have previously been insensitive to other’s feelings.

    “it is a form of shutting down one’s learnt personality and communication style”

    Learning should never end.

    “it is also an attack on their masculinity”

    Oh puhlease. How do you define masculinity?

    “Progressive PCism is almost entirely a feminine minded viewpoint.”

    What crap. Men are just as capable of consideration of others as women.

    Look on it as a challenge jimhaz. Find a way to express your opinion without belittling, objectifying, disenfranchising or offending other people. Whilst your intent may not be harmful, you comment from a position of majority and privilege. Consider how you may feel were it not so – consider how the words may hurt. eg Bill Leak’s cartoons

  15. Johno

    Harquebus, I burnt my underdacs decades ago. Don’t they reduce sperm count anyway LOL.

  16. olddavey

    Please Johno, not while I’m eating lunch!

  17. Jack

    “Find a way to express your opinion without belittling, objectifying, disenfranchising or offending other people.”

    Well, that rules out 99.9% of articles/forums/comments on all forms of social media, including this article I’m afraid. I’m sure there are many grey nomads offended by this article’s generalisations of baby boomers.
    .

  18. babyjewels10

    Totally agree Kaye. In fact, I feel quite alienated from my own age group. They just brass me off, with only a few exceptions. Bah!

  19. Kaye Lee

    Reasonable point Jack. The article was prompted by the survey of over 50s and 86% represents a large proportion of the 1000 surveyed who think political correctness is ruining the country. I am wondering who they surveyed because I know many seniors who would disagree.

  20. Kyran

    Funny thing, Ms Lee. I have no recollection of any certainty in my youth. I fondly remember a near insatiable curiosity, both fueled and contained by my parents. The energy of youth, in partnership with the experience of age, is probably our only hope.
    There was a quote my mother cited, “The problem with youth is age. Age is no problem”. I thought it was G B Shaw, but I can’t find it. All I could find is “Youth is wasted on the young”. Shaw passed away in 1950, and we are still having the same conversation.
    You may be interested in some of his other observations.

    http://www.notable-quotes.com/s/shaw_george_bernard.html

    Yep, I know. He opposed vaccination. He also opposed organized religion.
    Yep, I know. He passed away in 1950. Yet, we are still having the same conversations.
    People like Mr King, Messrs Kennedy (still think Robert was better than John) passed away in the 60’s. Even as a child, you knew you were watching something special when they spoke. Now, we get to rake over the coals of that ‘social’ fire and lecture our kids on ‘not playing with fire’.
    “Stripping away the filters of propriety are often a symptom of dementia.”
    Whether I am demented or not, the filters of propriety, in my mind, were set back in the 60’s.
    Aspiration.
    Right was right and wrong was wrong.
    For the first time, filters were avoided. Propriety became important, as nothing more than an observation of equality.
    Right was right and wrong was wrong, regardless of sex, colour, religion, age. How the heck did we go from that to “‘Right’ is right and wrong is ‘Left’?”
    If we can incite an interest by our youth in our history, they can learn that their battles are not new. We can get them to poke the fire, and shield them from the resultant conflagration. As best we can.
    These are not new battles. Let our youth know we will stand, shoulder to shoulder. Encourage their curiosity, temper their response.

    For what it’s worth, diannaart, I was listening to Concert for Bangladesh (George Harrison, Ravi Shankar) while I was typing. Inspirational.

    “I look at the world and I notice it’s turning
    While my guitar gently weeps
    With every mistake we must surely be learning
    Still my guitar gently weeps”

    Thanks again Ms Lee and commenters. Take care

  21. Phil

    Ms Evans says “You can’t say anything that’s offensive and that could be deemed to label anyone. You have to be always aware of perceptions, apparently.”

    We are grandparent’s raising a fourteen year old grandchild – we are the very opposite of Ms Evans and I take Jack’s point about the risk of such generalisations in the article. But I also see exactly where Kaye Lee is coming from and I am glad she has expressed those views notwithstanding.

    We went to school in the 1950s and middle school dialogue was always derogatory toward kids from different cultures, especially indigenous Australians. We felt empowered by our prejudices. Ms Evans sounds to be from that time but she has not moved with the times which suggests an absence of wisdom that might be expected to develop with maturity.

    Of course Ms Evans can today say pretty much anything she likes, just as can the rest of us. What offends her is that people today call her out – and that offends her because ‘in her day bigotry was accepted as the norm.

    Well, Ms Evan, and all you other seniors in that survey who are so upset by so called ‘political correctness’ you might be old, but you have not acquired wisdom along the way.

  22. dragonnanny

    I am not sure people over 50 or 60 etc are wise simply because they have lived a longer life in today’s world. My 15 yr old grandson has some remarkable pearls of wisdom but he is unaware it is wisdom – to him it is just his form of common sense. My experience on Facebook is that some Aussie seniors are intolerant and seem to love Hanson and her ideas, and others are like me, open minded and respectful of others’ opinions………. but I am not sure about the wisdom bit………I don’t see a lot of it – apart from on this site, where most comments indicate wisdom in my opinion. I saw that survey you refer to Kaye and I think I was stunned by the figures quoted………. I don’t seem to fit in with my age group (almost 70) – decided I am a fringe dweller……….. great article Kaye Lee, and yes, would like to see you in parliament………

  23. Michael Taylor

    Well said, Kaye. I couldn’t agree more.

  24. Andreas Bimba

    Thanks again Kaye for a really well written and thought out article. If you can’t make it to a political career then we need to find others with similar values and strengths to yours, to replace most of the current lot. I attended a Q&A with Richard Di Natale at RMIT earlier tonight about Greens economic policy and he clearly is also a person of high integrity, compassion and talent. He has most of the excellent Greens political policy platform heading down the right path but still needs more persuasion before harnessing the potential of Modern Monetary Theory economics. He was open to the idea of looking into MMT in greater depth but did say it was somewhat controversial.

    May the good people of this world prevail.

  25. Zathras

    People may be surprised to learn that Politicial Correctness isn’t a “tree-hugging hippy” invention but emerged during the Reagan era when extremist Conservatives feared that morals were in decline and wanted to assert some sort of behavioural control over people.
    Because there are no true guidelines, it’s interpreted any way one sees fit and those in authority make up their own rules and limitations based on whatever they believe is correct.

    I’s a self-imposed concept not backed up by law. You are free to make any “politically incorrect” remark unless it’s obscene or seen as vilifying or threatening.

    I can call a disabled person a “cripple” or use the term “spastic” as a derogatory term and not be arrested or even charged, although it would say more about me than about my targetted victim.
    Brandis said that people have the right to be bigots nut people certainly have the right to be unpleasant.

    As far as I know, nobody has ever been fined or imprisoned just for being politically incorrect.

    The only power it has is what we give it. Commonsense, decency and fairness are all that should be required – the rest is just made-up nonsense usually taken to extremes based on personal interpretation.

  26. Lachlan Paff

    Funny hearing all these aging boomers crapping on about politica l correctness and all that bilge. This is the same generation who as teens and twentysomethings, wanted to smash society. Who were taking drugs and shagging anything that moved. So what have they done since then? Accumulated wealth whilst at the same time becoming one of the most selfish, and opinionated generations I have ever seen.

  27. Florence nee Fedup

    Any survey should begin with asking what is your understanding of the words political correctness?

  28. Clive Buckingham

    I do not disagree with a lot that has been said. However, as a grandparent well over 50 I have just been labeled and stereotyped. I thought that was politically incorrect,

  29. Kaye Lee

    Clive, I doubt the article applies to many of our readers, but it seems we are in the minority if that survey is in any way indicative. I will turn 60 in a few months and I am perturbed by what I hear from many of my peers. I found the treatment of Yassmin Abdel-Magied appalling. I am horrified by our treatment of asylum seekers. I cannot understand why we are having a postal survey about removing discrimination. I am concerned about the influence of religion in our lawmaking. And I am scared about our inaction on climate change – renewable energy is another topic many of our generation refuse to consider.

  30. Johno

    The dodo was evolving quicker than the human race.

  31. helvityni

    Kaye Lee
    August 23, 2017 at 7:31 am

    You listed above all my worries and concerns too, so sad about the treatment of Yassmin….I don’t understand why nobody wants to take those few asylum seekers on Nauru and Manus…

    Most nights it’s hard to watch the evening news…reading about misery is easier than seeing it…

  32. Lyn

    I think it’s pretty straight forward. Political correctness is not about censorship, it’s about not being an arsehole, simple as that

  33. diannaart

    Kyran

    Maybe old habits die hard.

  34. Kaye Lee

    I find it very hard to stay awake long enough to do much damage 🙂

  35. diannaart

    I have been told that MJ is better than any sleeping tablet…

  36. helvityni

    That silly, totally useless drug testing now starting in the Western suburbs, is nothing more than yet another punitive Liberal policy. Those poor youngsters don’t have jobs, and no chance of getting one, are tortured with the Liberals punitive policy… It’s their turn, no doubt Xenophon will assist getting it through..

    We send them to rehabs, said one Minister, who very well knows that there are hardly any government run ones about…

    “we will punish the old, the sick, the jobless, the asylum seekers, the LGBT people, the disabled, the Public school students, the university students, the Muslims, the homeless, and more……….” , that’s their promise.

    Their actions are driving people to drink and drug use….

  37. Richard Bull

    I suggest that you look to the writings of Ken Wilber, et. al. to see where most of the world sits in the holarchy of worldviews – mostly tribal/traditional and patriarchal it would seem. Which doesn’t give us much hope, at least for the near future, unfortunately!! Maybe it’s the millennials who will get us through the dark times ahead.

  38. jimhaz

    An ever increasing aging population worries me in terms of voting.

    Based on Newspoll data from 2016 people become more conservative as they age.

    The change in the percentage of voters per party comparing 18-34 to 50 plus shows the following

    LNP plus 24% more 50 plus aged vote LNP than 19-34 do.
    ALP minus 12%
    GRN minus 14%

    http://resources.news.com.au/files/2016/05/30/1227888/172704-160531analysis.pdf

    It is only one vote example. I had trouble getting the Age based data for 2007.Perhaps someone thought to be very positive, such as it was with Rudd in 2007, may halve the variation, but you’d still find a trend to conservative values with age.

    At some point increasing average ages are going to become as significant problem in terms of the selection of progressive parties. I have no solutions that would be acceptable to people over 60 – the closest I can get is to make it non-compulsory.

    The changes that happen to a persons mind and body as they age will also mean they take on some of the habits of the conservatives. When you are more fragile, even if just relative to your past, your mind reacts differently to the world. As people they have known die, the world of identities they have known disappears. Identity becomes more and more one of memories, the way things were. Points of view that induce emotions, also manifest from memory. Identity is not placed as much in the here and now as say a younger, pumped up with hormones, person’s identity is.

    It is not surprising that older people have more difficulty adjusting to progressive trends.

    This of course is a generalisation – in some for example the loss of testosterone production due to aging, or the loss of a life partner, or needing help due to physical difficulties, often leads to a more outward looking viewpoint in a certain percentage of the population.

    (weird, I had to post part of this, then edit to post the remainder…not to worry)

  39. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi Kaye

    Thank you for another interesting article. I would, if I may, like to respond in some detail to a few of the claims that you make in your piece. I know that my remarks have caused you some exasperation in the past. I hope that this does not again occur in this instance.

    As a 69-year old, I think that I can safely make the claim to be in the ‘seniors’ category.

    I have always tried to draw a line between being ‘politically correct’ and simply being polite, courteous and considerate. This is not always an easy task. I am not sure that I would say that “having to be politically correct all the time” is ruining society but I do not like it when I feel that I am being coerced and restricted when it comes to expressing what I feel is a reasonable point of view.

    I think that I am also qualified to claim that the need to be politically correct certainly overrides ‘freedom of speech’. I was blocked by The Conversation for not abiding by their ‘community standards’, which is Orwell Speak for not being politically correct. As I recall it, the person who seems to be the chief moderator there said on at least one occasion that ‘freedom of speech’ did not apply at The Conversation. I think that I have made sufficient contributions to this AIM Network site for people to get a feel for the general tone of my posts. It is clear that I do not resort to personal abuse or profanity, yet that did not prevent me from being blocked from that site. Rather, it was because I was not being ‘politically correct’, particularly when it came to expressing an opinion on Islam.

    So Kaye, I am one who does, to a degree, find politically correctness to be a burden. Yet Kaye, I do not,
    “scream blue murder if anyone suggests it might be a good idea to move Australia Day from the day when Terra Nullius was appropriated by an invading force.”

    nor Kay, do I,

    “solemnly declare Lest We Forget on ANZAC Day”. Despite being the son of a WW II veteran who saw action in the Pacific against the Japanese, do I “mercilessly hound anyone who dares to mention the tragedy of war, or asks that we remember today’s victims….”. In fact, dad would have been the first to talk about the tragedy and futility of war.

    I even felt that the furore that developed following Yassmin Abdel-Magied’s Anzac day tweet was nothing more than a “ho-hum”, storm in a tea cup. I was far more concerned about some of her other remarks.

    For the record, I am fully in favor of changing the Australian flag (preferably to one that is all red). Furthermore, I do not wear Australian flag thongs or singlets. I am not a nationalist, so I do not take national anthems of any description very seriously (although I do find that this version of The Internationale is able to stir some emotion within me.)

    I am an atheist so how could I possibly
    “…..want Easter hat parades and Christmas carols to be compulsory.”

    As a democratic socialist/communist Kaye, I am constantly.
    “…. questioning of adherence to the traditions of the past ….”

    Do I criticize Islam for oppressing women? You bet I do, Kaye!! It is a pity that more of the so-called “leftists” who blatantly ‘turn a blind eye’ to how Islam treats women are not prepared to be more honest about Islamic practices, if not to others, then at least to themselves. Who are the hypocrites in this instance, Kaye?

    I will be voting “yes” in this needless, time-wasting and money wasting marriage equality exercise that the Turnbull Government is burdening us with. I wonder how the average Muslim will be voting?

    Yes Kaye, the Muslim world has had its female leaders,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_female_political_leaders

    but the Muslim world has a long way to go when it comes to its attitude to women. And please Kaye, do not respond to that with the usual distraction of.

    “Ohh yeah, but what about …. (you know Kaye, this, that and other thing)”. I am talking about Islam here and those kinds of distractions might work with those who genuflect to Islam, but it cuts no ice with me.

    When I read your sentence/paragraph:

    “Endless research has shown the harm caused by exclusion and isolation, the stultifying consequences of low self-esteem, the anguish of depression and mental ill health.”

    for some reason I immediately thought of the grave problems of the type mentioned in your quote, faced by some Muslim women who wish to leave the religion. Muslim women who, mind you, do not necessarily even live in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, but it Britain. Kaye I would invite you to watch this 47 minute video and to let me know what other religion treats those who wish to leave it in this way.

    I am sure that one of today’s true heroines, Aayan Hirsi Ali could add to this.

    Then we have the so-called ‘honor killings’, female genital mutilation, underage/forced marriages, etc.
    Is this the sort of thing that you call “enlightenment” and is the rejection of, inter alia, these hideous practices, what you call “ignorance and fear of change?”

  40. Zathras

    The above reference to “honor killings” and female genital mutilation is not based on religion but are both cultural practices.

    Such killings have also occurred in Hindu as well as Christian countries and by people of those faiths and FGM is also prevalent in African Christian countries as well as Muslim ones and is particularly high among Coptic Christians in Egypt. The practice itself is specifically banned in various Muslim countries.

    Likewise, male genital mutilation (ie circumcision) is a common cultural practice in Western countries with no medical basis and only a religious practice in the Jewish community.

    I’m definitely not making excuses for either but I’m not keen on sweeping generalisations that implicate the innocent in such barbaric matters.

  41. Kaye Lee

    Robert,

    I would suggest you were banned because of your undisguised and irrational hatred of Islam. The things you mention, as we have pointed out time and again, are cultural rather than religious practices.

    All religions have a lot to answer for so it is very hard to get on board when you single out one.

    One of the truly frustrating things I find is that every critic of Islam talks about other places. Talk to me about Australia, I futilely cry.

    You also continually ignore the truly alarming domestic violence statistics in Australia. You talk about attitudes to women from other people – let’s talk about attitudes to women here in Australia.

    “first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye”

    As for Aayan Hirsi Ali, she is a proven liar who has made an industry out of Islamophobia. The Dutch kicked her out.

  42. diannaart

    … the Catholic Church telling others what to do – no women priests, LBGTQI people not permitted to marry, hierarchy which covers its own in secrets and lies… in Australia, right here and right now…

  43. guest

    The words “politically correct” have meaning depending on who uses them. As pointed out here, the USA Conservatives used them to vilify political expressions opposed to their own. So here in Oz, the Conservatives attack their opponents with “politically correct”, “identity politics”, “elites”, “free speech”, etc.

    But the Conservatives have their own “politically correct” language and concepts, such as “low taxes”, “small government” , “rights”, “entitlements”, “free speech”, “identity”, etc which are the basis of their own ideology. So the wealthy, for example, are entitled to lower taxes, involvement in government power and decision making etc because of their identity.

    It was interesting today to hear Dr Michael Gannon of the AMA speaking on Meet the Press. He spoke with passion about things which need to be done to improve health in Oz and also about improvements being done. The AMA seems to me to be a medical union, and he criticised aspects of health insurance. But clearly left wing unions are pilloried by the Conservative Right.

    Today, as well, we heard Trump thanking a Christian minister for prayers he made at a Trump rally, because the USA is a country of “faith”. The hypocrisy of that is mind-numbing.

    So also we have the destruction over the past 15 years of the Middle East (an extension of previous Western interference) by so-called countries of “faith’. And as part of that, we wonder why we are targeted by terrorists. The upshot of that is that all Muslims are tarred with the same brush. The old saying is that we criticise the speck in the eye of the other while ignoring the log in our own.

    Kaye Lee has brilliantly collated examples of those logs in our own eyes and the way in which intolerance flares out as an attack on what we inadequately understand. It is a result of ignorance. And no wonder if some of us are pining for some Golden Age from the past which never existed.

  44. guest

    And another Right wing idea: “nanny state”. It means the Government really has no obligation to support the down-and-outs; they should lift themselves up by their boot straps. Self help.

    And the idea that anyone should tell others how much alcohol and drugs anyone should consume is not the right of anyone, not even an expert in drugs. Individuals should be able to make up their own minds. You know, it has all been happening for a long time now and who can stop it – as long as the individual is happy. Experts are just “elites” out of touch with reality (like climate change “alarmists”, perhaps). Oh really?

  45. Robert REYNOLDS

    Interesting post, guest. I agree with the sentiments that you have expressed here entirely.

  46. paul walter

    As Helvi said above, the slimy drug testing (not Vaucluse?) of the unemployed, following on Hanson’s burqa nonsenses against Muslims another minority and the grubby campaign involving gay hate, shows the REAL tyranny.

    Today Cormann rabbits on about “socialists”, but I think the enforcement is directed toward those who see beyond Murdochist “correctness” and name rigid and repressive false orthodoxies of populism; dog whistling to the ignorant and uninformed toward unthinking and fearful conformism and even violent reaction.

    The real political correctness derives of the modern strains of McCarthyism, a form of consent manufacture that narrows issues available consideration toward issues favourable to our conservative guardians, like terrorism and street crime (not imperialism and the criminality inherent in capitalism) and preclude responses other than mindless kneejerk that would entail a deeper and considered reading of how society actually functions as it does today and why.

  47. wam

    Politically correct has been swamped by ‘meaning’ in the same way as bullying. The stereotyping eg irish idiots, scots meanness, Aboriginal dumbness that was politically offensive but read pw wtf does that mean?

  48. guest

    One does not have to look far to see how anything not approved by the ideological masters of the Right is criticised relentlessly, for aberration from the Right-wing view is an abomination derived from Marxism. See Kevin Donnelly at work (2/8/17) in “Wear it Purple Day and other cultural moves sending us puce”, a loud and clumsy headline. Wear it Purple is a movement in schools in support of LGBTI students since 2010. Donnelly is no doubt upset that he has failed to stop it. (Puce in my dictionary says: “flea colour; purple-brown”.)

    According to Donnelly, “the cultural left now dominates our education system…to radically reshape society by indoctrinating students with Marxist-inspired, politically correct ideologies…cultural-left elites dominating the public and political debate…anyone who disagrees is a bigot.”

    Now I do not know exactly what Marx might have said about LGBTI people, or safe schools programs, or the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, or “sexuality, sex and gender diversity”, or “opposition to the same-sex marriage postal survey” (sic), but I am sure it would not have been very much. Donnelly is “puce” with anger and disappointment that he has been unable to persuade the world to his point of view (which, of course is the Western Enlightenment Christian view, whatever that is.)

    In summary, Donnellly says this: “The Australian Education Union has a long history of cultural-left political activism and promoting left-wing causes such as same-sex marriage, gender fluidity and a secular curriculum that undermines the values of Western culture by promoting diversity and difference – the new code for multiculturalism.”

    And there we have it. Thou shalt not be different or diverse. Thou shalt submit to the cookie-cutter and conform to the conservative model (Aussie values?).

    And there is more: “Education should never be confused with indoctrination. The curriculum must be impartial and balanced”. Which Donnelly is not, of course.

  49. Robert REYNOLDS

    An interesting post guest. I agree with much of what you say. In regards to Kevin Donnelly’s views, sometimes I agree with what he says and on other occasions I do not.

    I was blocked on The Conversation which is a discussion site with a decidedly pro-left bias, guest. It seems that they too will apply the “Thou shalt not be different or diverse.” diktat if it suits them. This sort of thing is not the preserve of the right.

  50. Mark Needham

    “People want to reserve marriage for heterosexuals but if you try to reserve computers bought with Indigenous grant money for Indigenous students, all hell breaks loose.”

    And you, what, Kaye Lee?

    Greed and Mediocrity, again. Seems about rights, and not the important bit, responsibility.

    I fit the age criteria, of the said survey, 69, and find common ground with both sides of political persuasion. What is wrong with most of this “Stuff, that has to be changed, to be correct”

    Tearing down, historical markers, doesn’t change stuff, changing customs, via law, is wrong.

    Not Happy Jan.
    Mark Needham

  51. Mark Needham

    Aayan Hirsi Ali.
    A liar. Everything she has said is a lie?
    What,
    Mark Needham

  52. wam

    sperm?? only if the undies are tight, johnno. Perhaps, budgie smuggler style when a staunch catholic no condom boy, like the rabbott, only has two kids and gives up sex for lent oops toenee a bit suss??
    Guest have you heard:
    ‘bludgers, I did ‘it’ why can’t they?
    he doesn’t look disabled to me
    there are heaps of part time jobs they are too lazy and are living on my taxes
    no cash for blacks, good job they can’t drink, smoke and gamble my money.
    india fastest growing economy and we give them aid @@%2 ’em this is after I told them gillard stopped aid to india and china years ago but new info is forgotten if the old suits your purpose.

  53. Mark Needham

    Jim haz….”When you are more fragile, even if just relative to your past, your mind reacts differently to the world. As people they have known die, the world of identities they have known disappears. Identity becomes more and more one of memories,”

    At what point does a predisposed idea, history or a memory, become…deficient. For that is your implication. Learning is a “problem”..?
    Maybe, ban education, schools, universities. Of course not.
    Wondering,
    Mark Needham

  54. Mark Needham

    Kaye, yourself and others here, are intolerant of other views, in particular, those differing from yours It is though you deny the right of a differing view. “You are in error/wrong, because I do not agree with you”.
    I am already denied the right of saying that I do not like, Adam Goodes. I am now a racist.

    This is the language that is used, in argument.
    Speaking english true,
    Mark Needham

  55. guest

    Mark, you have written a great deal here, and obviously you feel strongly about your opinions. But I am afraid I do not, because I have difficulty understanding exactly what you are saying – especially when you do not explain clearly why you are saying it.

    Take for example the bit about why you do not like Adam Goodes. Why do you feel like that? Is it because he plays for a team you do not support? Is it because he is has been a very good player? Is it because he dobbed in a spectator who insulted him? Is it because he did a little dance? Is it because he has Indigenous heritage?

    How you answer will say much about you – but you have not explained your position.

    The same with your accusations against Aayan Hirsi Ali being a liar. She is a highly recognised critic of Islam which she says is in need of reform. What are the lies you refer to?

    It is not helpful to simply make statements without explanation. People do not always appreciate or understand your opinion – and then you get angry with them over what is probably just a misunderstanding.

  56. Roswell

    Mark, I wouldn’t say we’re intolerant of the views of others, but rather, on how those others deliver their argument.

    Speaking for myself, I learn a lot from people who hold different views to me.

    I’d rather hold a debate with a civil fool than a rude genius.

    And for the record I don’t like Eddie Betts, but I’m not a racist. He’s the only Indigenous AFL player I don’t like, yet I dislike dozens of non-Indigenous players.

    And also for the record, my two favourite AFL players are Indigenous.

  57. guest

    Wam, perhaps you are addressing me when you say:

    Guest have you heard:
    ‘bludgers, I did ‘it’ why can’t they?
    he doesn’t look disabled to me

    The problem is that I do not know whether this is what you think and believe or whether it is what you imagine other people to say about the unemployed.

    Then you say things about black people spending your tax money on drinking, smoking and gambling – and again, I do not know who is saying it, you or an imaginary person.

    And then you have a rant about foreign aid to India and about Gillard and how you told everyone, but no one was listening.

    I have to say, I have no clue about what you are saying, to be honest.

  58. Yusuf Feidel

    Aayan Hirsi Ali crime that she lied to gain asylum.If it was people on Manus or Nauru you would defend them because they too burn identity and lie, some. not suit your story so critical

  59. Kaye Lee

    guest,

    It was me who said Aayan Hirsi Ali is a liar. She lied about her circumstances when she sought asylum in the Netherlands. She hadn’t escaped from war in Somalia. She came from Kenya, where she lived in a secure environment and under the protection of the United Nations, which funded her education at a well-regarded Muslim girls’ school and her brother went to a Christian school – hardly Islamic extremists. She said she was escaping from her family and an honour killing but she kept in touch with them. cShe said she was escaping an arranged marriage to a man she hadn’t met but she had met him, her mother wanted her to finish her education before she got married, her husband gave her the money to go to the Netherlands and he then gave her a divorce on her request.

    She goes on speaking tours promoting her books, saying things like “If you look at 70 percent of the violence in the world today, Muslims are responsible.” When asked for her source for that information, it appears she made it up. She stokes sensationalism. In my opinion, rather than seeking reform, she is seeking personal reward. She is like those that do the climate change denier circuit. There are certainly problems that need addressing but this woman is just cashing in.

  60. guest

    Thank you, Kaye. I missed your statement about Aayan Hirsi Ali. She is the kind of person I prefer not to know about.

  61. Mark Needham

    Asylum seekers lying. that’s a real baddie. How many, resident here in Australia, are guilty of that.
    Porkies are part of life. If you say you have never, then I shall have no hesitation in calling you a liar.
    We have to amortise what we know about a person, in accepting or denying their credibility.
    Lying,
    Mark Needham

  62. king1394

    Hang on. It was the older generation who worked to create changes in how we express ourselves, calling for more respect and accuracy and less stereotyping. The 70s feminists strove to make the English language a little less biased. They looked at titles: Mr, Mrs, Miss, and wondered why women’s marital status had to be declared through their title but men were just showing they were male. This change has been strongly resisted ever since with Ms still being an announcement that not only is this a woman, but a feminist. There was an effort to make occupations and roles less gender specific: police officer rather than policeman or policewoman and losing words such as waitress, and actress often replacing them with more accurate terms that opened them up to both sexes. Chairperson became comfortable usage for most people (not the Tony Abbotts of the world – remember he once addressed a woman chair as ‘Chair-thing’). And the backlash was tremendous and continues today.

    Another wave of terminology strove to take emphasis from disability: we lost the adjectival “blind, spastic, cripple” type words and started to think ‘Person first” – a student who is blind, a man who uses a wheelchair: was that so hard? This terminology makes a difference. The elderly have been at the forefront of seeking better terms: seniors; aged (like good wine!).

    Then we started to get all sorts of nonsense about political correctness. We were told that you could not say this or that, and that certain cultural and religious references had to be squashed. To me, this is actually part of the continuing backlash. There was and is no reason to ‘abolish’ Christmas or Easter, but in multicultural settings it is important to recognise other significant festivals such as Diwali and Ramadan as well. Let’s sing Christmas songs and carols as part of the cultural celebration of Christmas and let’s join together and enjoy other ways of celebrating the passage of the year. The recent decision that Easter eggs have to be marketed as chocolate eggs reflects the desire to expand the market – why discourage non-Christians from indulging in the festival of chocolate. Saying ‘Happy Holidays’ is a good idea if you don’t know a person’s cultural and religious attachment to a holiday period – how does that hurt anyone?

    Denigrating careful and accurate and polite speech has created the bugaboo known as political correctness, and those who use that term to criticise others who want a more tolerant and gentle world.

  63. Mark Needham

    “addressed a woman chair as ‘Chair-thing’). And the backlash was tremendous and continues today.”

    Remember when Senator Joan Childs, said, ” I do not have any sex, whilst I am in this position”.

    The house roared,
    Laughing,
    Mark Needham

  64. Kaye Lee

    king1394,

    You rightly point out the battles fought and the gains we thought we had made but, for some reason, we are going backwards. Is it just that the bigots are louder? Have they just found new targets? Is it because of toxic political rhetoric? Is it because of financial duress? Jobs were easy to get when we were young.

  65. Robert REYNOLDS

    Kaye, your viscous attack on Aayan Hirsi Ali and guest’s supine endorsement of it, cannot be allowed to go unanswered.

    I am no expert on the life of this lady Kaye but from what little I do know about her, she is, as far as I am concerned, one of the true heroines of our time.

    Yusuf Feidel in a post above, sums up my views beautifully by writing words to the effect that if someone on Manus or Nauru was desperate enough to gain asylum and needed to distort the truth somewhat to achieve this aim, then you would be the first to defend them. Ayaan Hirsi Ali was desperate to escape life under Islam in Africa. What sensible person would not wish to make such an escape?

    I liken Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s escape from her life to that of a German escaping Nazi rule in the 1930’s.

    As far as your comment goes, guest, I would thoroughly recommend listening to a Late Night Live interview conducted by Phillip Adams with Aayan Hirsi Ali that was originally broadcast on the program on 30th January, 2007. You might find this interview more illuminating that Kaye’s very derogatory and negative comments.

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/ayaan-hirsi-ali/3285410

    Hirsi Ali’s life has not been easy because she has chosen to reveal the hypocrisy associated with the ‘Religion of Peace. We are talking about ‘hypocrites’ here, aren’t we, eh Kaye?

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali requires round the clock protection and has for years. Not because of any ‘lies’ she has told in the past, but because she tells the truth about Islam.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/ayaan-hirsi-ali-australia-needs-programs-to-assimilate-muslim-migrants-20170404-gvdu91.html

    Something tells me Kaye, that you listen to the likes of the Islamist apologist and activist, Linda Sarsour, too much.

    Linda of often the subject of articles in the Clarion Project. Clarion Project is a non-profit organization that educates the public about the dangers of radical Islam. I would recommend it to those on this site. It is free to download.

    https://clarionproject.org/about-us/

  66. Kaye Lee

    “Ayaan Hirsi Ali was desperate to escape life under Islam in Africa”

    Actually she was leading a relatively comfortable life in Kenya from all accounts – not fleeing the war in Somalia as she claimed. As I mentioned, she had a good education and her brother went to a Christian school. Her family weren’t fundamentalists. She didn’t have to adopt an identity and pay a people smuggler to escape – her husband gave her the money to fly to the Netherlands and also gave her a divorce on request. She was not in danger of an honour killing by her family – that was all hooey.

    I don’t know Linda Sarsour but extreme views on any side of the fence are dangerous.

    Someone I have great admiration for is Malala Yousafzai. She is a true voice for reform.

    Once again Robert, you fail to talk about Australia. You tar billions of people with the same brush. That is just not realistic.

  67. Robert REYNOLDS

    Just a couple of points Kaye, in response to your most recent post.

    You were the one to bring up the subject of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She is not an Australian. I am not sufficiently acquainted with Ayaan HIrsi Ali’s personal circumstances to know if what you say about her is true or not. But let us for the sake of argument, accept what you say. Then Kaye, my response is simply “Big Deal”.

    I must admit that I am a little surprised to learn that you have apparently not heard of Linda Sarsour.

    As far as “tarring billions of people with the same brush”, I would recommend a short video (just under 15 minutes) by Raheel Raza, a Pakistani born, Sunni Muslim who is also a journalist, author, public speaker, media consultant, anti-racism activist, and interfaith discussion leader.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHkRaheel Raza

    Because of Raheel’s willingness to expose the excesses of this ‘faith’ she has had a fatwa issued against her.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatwas

    If you do watch this video then I would be pleased to hear your comments.

    I would strongly urge others on this site to view this most informative film. I am sure that guest, for instance, would find it most enlightening.

    A final comment Kaye, you remark that once again I fail to talk about Australia. I think that where this issue of Islam is concerned, it is not realistic to always confine our discussion solely to this country.

  68. Kaye Lee

    “You were the one to bring up the subject of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.”

    Ummmm, no…it was you.

    Robert REYNOLDS August 23, 2017 at 12:26 pm

    ” I am sure that one of today’s true heroines, Aayan Hirsi Ali could add to this.”

    And no Robert, I am not going to watch any of your extensive collection of videos of atrocities from around the world.

    ” Because of her willingness to expose the excesses of this ‘faith’ she has had a fatwa issued against her.”

    In March 2010, Sheikh Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, a leading Pakistani cleric, published a 600-page Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings, endorsed by Al-Azhar University, which prohibited killing Muslim and non-Muslim civilians and destroying property and places of worship. The fatwa also affirmed the unlawfulness of imposing Islam on others, and that the only permissible way in Islam to change a government is through peaceful and legal means.

    In January 2010, the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada issued a fatwa against terrorism signed by 20 North American Imams, declaring that attacks on Canada and the United States by any extremist will be an attack on 10 million Muslims living in North America, and affirmed that every Canadian and American Muslim has a duty to protect their country and expose any individual attempting to harm Canadians or Americans.

    In November 2008, nearly 6,000 Indian Muslim clerics approved a fatwa against terrorism at a conference in Hyderabad. Termed the ‘Hyderabad Declaration’, it stated that “Islam rejects all kinds of unjust violence, breach of peace, bloodshed, murder and plunder and does not allow it in any form”.

    I could go on, and on, and on.

    “I think that where this issue of Islam is concerned, it is not realistic to always confine our discussion to this country.”

    It is not realistic to talk about all Muslims as being the same. There have been some dreadful things done, no question, but it is by a few criminals and a few extremists. The impact has been enormously disproportionate to the number of people involved. Blaming all Muslims for the sins of a very few is just what the terrorists want you to do. Did it ever occur to you that Australian Muslim migrants chose to come here to escape intolerance and violence?

  69. Robert REYNOLDS

    O.K. Kaye, if you wish to return to my post I am happy to concede your point. Yes, it seems that I was indeed the first to bring up the subject of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

    ” I am not going to watch any of your extensive collection of videos of atrocities from around the world.”

    Let me assure you that this video does not contain any footage that is unlikely to be seen on the evening news. Perhaps you are fearful that you might be exposed to some statistics and information that might be inconsistent with your preconceived and strongly held views.

    It is a pity that not all Muslims are prepared to abide by Sheikh Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri’s Fatwa on Terrorism. The same applies to the other entreaties against terrorism.

    Perhaps those who committed the recent atrocities in Europe had not heard to these Fatwas?

    I could go on and on and on and on …… too!

  70. Matters Not

    I could go on and on and on and on

    Of that there’s absolutely no doubt. Sad. Very sad.

    But you’re not alone. And after that – you might explain what your life is all about. Apart from … FEAR.

    FFS.

  71. Kaye Lee

    I don’t have any “preconceived and strongly held views” but you most obviously do. You hate all Muslims. Full stop. Just as the terrorists want you to.

  72. Kaye Lee

    Let’s bring the discussion back to Australia.

    Australia is a comparatively cohesive and safe society.

    The heads of all of our security agencies have thanked the Australian Muslim community for their role in helping to keep it that way.

    Which do you think would work best to help keep our country the relatively tolerant place it is now?

    The #I’llridewithyou campaign where people offered to accompany Muslim women after several attacks on women wearing veils? Or suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists just waiting to behead you and that they all beat their 9 year old genitally mutilated wives?

  73. Kaye Lee

    Robert,

    There are some genuine things to be concerned about but you don’t seem able to tell the goodies from the baddies. You can’t differentiate between Waleed Aly and Osama bin Ladin. You don’t seem to understand that people in Australia are bound by Australian laws, not the laws of Saudi Arabia.

    Get constructive rather than destructive. If you are truly concerned about other cultures, start campaigning for more foreign aid for female education. Be glad that Muslim girls are growing up in Australia. They will help lead the changes their religion must make. My bet is they will get there before the Catholics.

  74. Roswell

    I could go on and on and on and on

    To my mind you’ve gone on long enough.

    Robert, you really are starting (!!) to sound like a broken record.

  75. Roswell

    You can’t differentiate between Waleed Aly and Osama bin Ladin

    Kaye, please, not when I have a mouthful of coffee.

  76. Yusuf Feidel

    My wife just she wear hijab but Australians don’t like
    A majority of Australians surveyed in an opinion poll have voted in favour of banning the public wearing of the burqa.

    The Sky News/ReachTel poll found 43.6 percent of participants were in “strong” support of the ban, with another 12.7 percent supporting the idea, making for a combined 56.3 percent in general favour, The Australian reports.

    Roswell not too hard to differentiate between Waleed Aly and Osama bin Ladin -one dead one alive

  77. Roswell

    Yusuf, the poll you quote says that 56.3% favour the ban.

    The sad thing is, that it was a non-issue to most Australians until Pauline Hanson raised then hammered it into us.

    I don’t think anyone cared until then.

    By the way, you might have missed the point about Waleed Aly. Kaye Lee was ridiculing a commenter here whose expressed hatred of all Muslims appalls us.

  78. Yusuf Feidel

    Roswell not very good my English-more to learn.I write to try to make better improvement

  79. helvityni

    ….and when Australia has educated all the girls, the Christian, Muslim and the non-believers, we must allow them ALL to have a voice: whatever their name, Claudia, Emma or Yassmin…

    Waleed Ali can have his say, why not also Yassmin?

  80. Roswell

    Yusuf, you’re doing just fine. Nobody here will have an issue with your English.

  81. Robert REYNOLDS

    Good Morning Kaye,

    I notice that you have been busy overnight. You are obviously allowed to stay up later than I am. Unfortunately circumstances dictated that I had to cut my post short last night. (“And thank god for that”, I hear you say!) The decision to cut my message short was made in the interests of maintaining world peace (if you get my drift).

    Now, let me address some of the points that you raise in your posts.
    You quite unfairly and incorrectly assert that,

    “You hate all Muslims. Full stop. Just as the terrorists want you to.”

    Well, Raheel Raza is a Muslim who I certainly do not hate. You know, she is the person who hosts that video that political correctness and bias prevents you from watching. In fact I have immense respect and admiration for this woman and other Muslims like her.

    When you ‘hate’ a group surely that hate must manifest itself in some noticeable way. As I have said in the past (and at the risk of sounding like that ‘broken record’ that Roswell speaks of) I feel much the same way about the Catholic Church yet that did not prevent me from having some ‘very close’ relationships with Catholic women in the past. I have never attended an anti-Mosque demonstration although I certainly have sympathy with the demonstrators who do, and I do not abuse Muslims in the street and pull off headscarves, etc. In fact, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people who do that sort of thing and I would publically and emphatically say to anyone who is inclined to do this, DO NOT DO IT!!

    Really Kaye, I think that my CV as a ‘hater’ of all Muslims is a bit ‘thin’. If you could bring yourself to watch Raheel’s short video you would see that she clearly acknowledges that most Muslims do not represent a threat to Western Civilization.

    Clearly, my attitude to Muslims, or indeed the followers of any religion, is a little more subtle and nuanced than you and others, would seem to believe.

    Next,

    “Let’s bring the discussion back to Australia.
    Australia is a comparatively cohesive and safe society.”

    Yes Kaye, you are right. And that is the way that I want it to stay.

    I have been thinking, Kaye, you have, for some time now, been issuing entreaties to me to confine my discussion to the situation as it obtains in Australia. And in deference to your wishes that is exactly what I intent to do, at least for the next few paragraphs or so anyway. Now Kaye, this is what can happen when the population of Muslims in Australia is only 2.6%,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idZ7Uyq53ZY

    and

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idZ7Uyq53ZY

    and still

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/behead-sign-child-deemed-safe-as-mother-talks-to-police-20120917-26368.html?logout=true

    and Kaye, if you can bring yourself to open any of those links (I accept that you probably will not, as that seems to be your way) then you will notice that none of them even mention

    the Lindt Café siege,
    the terrorist attack in Brighton Victoria,
    or the 2017 Islamic inspired bomb plot on an Australian airplane,
    the erection of bollards at strategic positions in our major cities,
    the ubiquitous security checks that we are all now subject to at any public event, etc.

    Nor do any of those three links mention any of the many Islamic inspired terrorist attacks that have been planned on Australian soil. Attacks that were only prevented by a combination of good luck and good policing.

    Just as a ‘by-the-by’ too Kaye, a check of outlawed terror organization in Australia (notice that I am following your specific instructions and keeping the discussion ‘in Australia’; as to do otherwise would only get me into big trouble!) you will notice that each of the organizations listed has an affiliation with a certain religion.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlawed_terror_organisations_in_Australia

    I do not want to anything more to further shake your steadfast view of the world Kaye, so I will refrain from mentioning the name of that religion.

    So Kaye, if this is what is possible with only 2.6% of the population then imagine what they might be able to achieve with 10% or 20% or so of the population. Kaye, use the Catholic experience as something of a guide, although the Catholic threat was never a potent as this one is.

    Kaye your remark that,

    “There are some genuine things to be concerned about but you don’t seem able to tell the goodies from the baddies.”

    is something of a worry to me. You come terribly close to reflecting the attitude of a simpleton with that remark. To attempt to divide the world (or Australia, if you insist) up into groups of “goodies and baddies” is a completely fatuous exercise. Sometimes the “goodies” can be baddies and sometimes the “baddies” can be goodies. Take George Brandis for example. He has been the bête noire of the left for years. But only a week or so ago you have the Greens and Labor Senators giving him a standing ovation in the Australian Senate. Kaye we are both should be old enough now to have grown beyond that kind of simplistic notion of “goodies and baddies”. That is what you might expect from a teenage political commentator.

    Your remark that,

    “The #I’llridewithyou campaign where people offered to accompany Muslim women after several attacks on women wearing veils? Or suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists just waiting to behead you and that they all beat their 9 year old genitally mutilated wives?”

    reflects a similarly naive “black and white” view of the world.
    I know that there is always a temptation to apply “Occam’s razor” to complicated situations but in doing so, you must also bear in mind Albert Einstein’s injunction that,

    “Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler”

    You ask the question,

    “Which do you think would work best to help keep our country the relatively tolerant place it is now?”

    You are not going to like my answer but it is “Keep Muslims out, at least for the time being (and any other group that threatens that comparatively cohesive and safe society that you talk about”. If there is one thing you can expect from me Kaye, it is honesty.

    Your remark that:

    “You don’t seem to understand that people in Australia are bound by Australian laws, not the laws of Saudi Arabia.”

    also cries out for a response.

    I have seen too many Muslims being interviewed (see one of the above links for an example) who take the attitude that sharia law is god’s (lower case ‘g’ intentional) law and that it takes precedence over the law of the land which is only a law devised by humans. I do not know about you Kaye but that rings very loud alarm bells for me. So yes, you are right to say that, we are bound by Australian laws, and not the laws of Saudi Arabia, but you forgot to add, “AT THE MOMENT”. And do not worry Kaye, the Saudi’s are working on that one as we speak.

    But Kaye, let’s end on a positive note. You direct me to get constructive rather than (what you see as being) destructive. I am not going to start campaigning for more foreign aid for female education. Kaye I am going to continue with my admittedly paltry efforts in that direction. I have always advocated for a high level of foreign aid to countries with the aim of inter alia, furthering opportunities for females. Specifically this includes equal opportunities for females before the law, in education, the family, and employment and of course, freedom of choice in family planning for women is vital.

    “At the end of the day”, Kaye my belief is that one of the best antidotes to the problem of religious belief, any religious belief, is to ensure that the population of a country has access to the best education and good, secure employment and a providing an environment where citizens feel that they have a secure future.

    I acknowledge Kaye that you make your pronouncements with the best of intentions. I am sure that you have a good heart and that you wish to protect those who you see as suffering discrimination and who are being victimized. Well guess what Kaye, my feelings are much the same. But Kaye we must always be mindful of the old saying that,

    “The pathway to hell is paved with the best of intentions.”

  82. Jack

    Back on political correctness; The attempt in western countries to dictate a strict set of rules about what one is allowed to think and express in academia and in the media — to the point that anyone who disobeys is discredited, demonized, intimidated and in danger of losing his or her livelihood — is just as toxic and just as reminiscent of Orwell’s diseased society.

    The main facet of this PC tyranny, so perfectly predicted by George Orwell, is the inversion of good and evil — of victim and victimizer.
    In the current climate, radical Muslims are victimized by the West, and not the other way around. It stifles genuine discussions that tolerant democracies need to have in the 21st century. This has led to a slanted teaching of the history of Islam and its conquests, both as a justification of the distortion and as a reflection of it.

    “Thought-control is necessary for the repression of populations ruled by despotic regimes.”

  83. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi Roswell,

    “To my mind you’ve gone on long enough.

    Robert, you really are starting (!!) to sound like a broken record.”

    Years of teaching experience has taught me Roswell that it is an unfortunate, but necessary reality, to have to repeat yourself many times for “the message” to get through.

    And that even further repetition is necessary for the ‘slow-learners’.

  84. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi Yusuf,

    You are doing very well with your English. I am sure that there will be many here who would be only too pleased to assist you with any aspect of that where possible. This site will provide a good chance for you to practice your English. Best of luck with your progress.

    P.S. I like your sense of humor!

    “Roswell not too hard to differentiate between Waleed Aly and Osama bin Ladin -one dead one alive”

  85. Michael Taylor

    Spare me, please. I just heard that Pauline Hanson wants a plebiscite on having the burqa banned in public places.

  86. Kaye Lee

    Robert, I too am a teacher and constant repetition is a stultifying way to teach. I am absolutely horrified by the push towards Direct Instruction and the “get back to basics” obsession. The ridiculous focus on standardised testing encourages the lazy option of repetition but does nothing to promote creativity, initiative, teamwork, communication skills, critical analysis, leadership, independent research – the attributes that enable them to go beyond the repetition of the classroom.

    Jack, I disagree that radical Muslims are cast as the victims by the “politcally correct crowd”. No-one in their right mind could condone the terrorist violence we are seeing or the subjugation of women and discrimination against minorities that we see in some cultures. But it is wrong to blame all Muslims for the actions of a few or to attribute the cultural practices of some countries to people of completely different ethnicity.

    What I am pleading for is a discussion, and reaction, that is relative to the threat.

    Robert,

    Is it really necessary to post three links about the same riot? They had every right to protest against the film. As often happens, a few people turned what was meant to be a peaceful protest into a violent clash. We saw similar behaviour at the Cronulla riots which were never going to be peaceful.

    Many Muslims who were there condemned the violence. “Those people do not represent me! The violence is far more insulting then the movie itself.”

    The Lindt cafe siege was by a mentally ill man who was well-known to authorities. It was handled atrociously by the police. No-one seems to remember that a woman in Cairns killed eight children the next day.

    How do you explain these statements?

    “I have immense respect and admiration for this woman and other Muslims like her.” and “most Muslims do not represent a threat to Western Civilization” yet you say we must ““Keep Muslims out.”

    You clearly want to live your life in irrational fear that the Saudi government is about to take over Australia. There is no arguing with those sort of crazy notions.

    Yes Michael, Pauline knows that her bigotry has electoral appeal.

    And Yusuf, your English is fine. By all means, join the conversation.

  87. Mark Needham

    Robert Reynolds. “Because of Raheel’s willingness to expose the excesses of this ‘faith’ she has had a fatwa issued against her.”

    What sort of fatwa, Robert, no vegemite sandwich, or 3 hail Marys and a dollar in the poor jar?

    I hope,
    Mark Needham

  88. helvityni

    Horrible acts of violence are committed by mentally ill people of any colour ,race or religion. Martin Bryant wasn’t a Muslim…those people ought to be helped, they should not be roaming the streets, or be jailed….

    Where are our mental health care facilities, it’s not enough just to give them a helpline phone number…

  89. Mark Needham

    Kaye. “start campaigning for more foreign aid for female education.”

    I have no proof, but I suspect that most ‘foreign aid’ is corruptly skimmed of the top, by scammers, or at least, the “generosity” is stolen and politicised as being “local”.

    further:- “And no Robert, I am not going to watch any of your extensive collection of videos of atrocities from around the world.”
    Kaye, You call yourself a teacher, but fail to try and learn yourself. Then from a basis of ‘restricted’ education, you then teach., and enter a conversation about same, with a contra view. (Hate the word contrary, double meaning. always read as it is not intended, smirk)

    Mate, I find it hard to read/listen to some stuff. The “Sir Humphrey Language” can be virtually not understandable, double negatives, hard to decipher, gobble… facts are thrown around, the acceptance/denial of which, is hard to settle.

    I do realise, that this conversation is going on and on and on. To me this is good, whilst there continues to be civility. For that civility, I thank you.

    Saying what I mean,
    By writing what I say,
    Hopefully Gracious,
    Most likely not.
    Mark Needham

  90. Mark Needham

    Yes. It is the radical muslims, that I speak of.

  91. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi Kaye,

    Many thanks for taking the time to write that reply.

    I have some things to do at the moment. I look forward to trying to find the time to get back to you later. If I do, then I promise to do my best to keep it short (or not too long anyway).

    Regards,

    Rob

  92. Kaye Lee

    Mark,

    “You call yourself a teacher, but fail to try and learn yourself.”

    I dispute that. Nowadays I have the luxury of spending a lot more time learning and less teaching. I prefer to learn by reading than by watching a short clip of people attacking each other with no explanation of what it was about (and I certainly don’t need to see pictures or videos of beheadings). It is important to know context. I always try to find out where other people get their information and look beyond it. I try to research all sides.

    I very much get the impression that some people think it is impossible for Muslims and non-Muslims to co-exist peacefully but I think Australia shows that we can. There are those on the extremes of either side who try to make that hard. The rest of us shouldn’t have to be fighting attacks from those who would fuel hatred from either camp.

  93. Robert REYNOLDS

    Kaye, if I may be permitted to chime in with an unsolicited remark in connection with your exchange with Mark.

    I would like to say that I have never even watched videos of actual beheadings, let alone provided a link to anyone for this kind of thing. I simply do not wish to see this sort of atrocity myself as I think that witnessing such acts affects a person, very negatively and probably permanently. I think that it is the witnessing of that sort of terrible act, along with others like it, that is a major contributing factor to the post-traumatic stress disorder that is suffered by so many returned servicemen and police and emergency service workers.

  94. Roswell

    Mark, I don’t watch every video that is linked to from comments here either, but it doesn’t mean to say I’m not learning anything.

    I find it a bit odd that you would think that Kaye isn’t learning anything because she too doesn’t watch them.

    I do, however, read most of the comments here, and from those comments Kaye easily demonstrates that she is one of the most learned contributors to The AIMN.

  95. Harquebus

    This popped up today on my reading list.

    “Although Islamism represents all that PC ostensibly opposes — such as the curbing of free speech, the repression of women, gays and “apostates” — both have become totalitarian ideologies.”
    “Thought-control is necessary for the repression of populations ruled by despotic regimes.”
    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10883/political-correctness-radical-islam

  96. diannaart

    “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”

    This old saw is regularly trotted out to ‘prove’ good intent doesn’t achieve any good.

    What it fails to account for is the achievement of much good which begin with good intentions. This does actually happen, else I and many others here would not have survived long enough to be posting comments at AIMN.

    No doubt there are ham-fisted examples of ‘good’ intention, such as the stealing of aboriginal children “for their own good” – the premise being that First Nation people were incapable of caring for children.

    I would also posit there are paths to hell which are far more worn by hatred, greed, corruption and the belief in one’s superiority to others.

    ..and, Robert

    Years of teaching experience has taught me Roswell that it is an unfortunate, but necessary reality, to have to repeat yourself many times for “the message” to get through.

    And that even further repetition is necessary for the ‘slow-learners’.

    You are not a teacher here and nor are AIMers your students.

    A little less superiority and little more reflection on the error of painting millions of people with a single brush may well bring some enlightenment into your life.

    Cheers

  97. Kaye Lee

    Harquebus, your link starts with “Political correctness (PC) has been bolstering radical Islamism”. What a load of crap. No-one is suggesting we should support or defend radical extremists. That is a total red herring from those who wish to distort the truth and obfuscate the discussion. This ridiculous idea that we are somehow constrained from discussing our concerns is shown to be the outright lie that it is by this discussion and the endless debate that goes on everywhere. People who say PC is stifling their freedom of speech just mean they are pissed off that they can’t make everyone as hateful and scared as them.

    It also ignores the condemnation by the Muslim community of the violence being perpetrated by this miniscule number of criminals. It ignores the fact that Muslims live all over the world in vastly different societies and consequently are vastly different in their cultural and religious practices. It ignores the Muslim teaching that people must always adhere first to the laws of the land in which they live.

    People talk about Muslims wanting different laws….from what I can see it is the Catholics wanting different laws for them with Peter Dutton’s full support.

    I started listening to the Raheel Raza video – using Sam Harris to bolster her arguments makes me question her credibility. She speaks about the oppression of Muslim women yet she graduated from Karachi University with degrees in Psychology and English. She has called on the Canadian government to suspend all immigration from “terror-producing” countries seemingly forgetting that she migrated from Pakistan.

    Yes extremism is bad. No, all Muslims aren’t extremists.

  98. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    I submitted that link for general interest. I hope that you got past the first sentence?
    All religions are bad. Singling out Islam for special treatment bothers me not.

    Here’s another one from today’s list. Just for general interest.

    “When confrontation shifts to the arena of violence, it’s the toughest and most brutal who win – and we know who that is.” — Noam Chomsky
    “physical resistance has time and again protected local populations from racist violence, and prevented a gathering caucus of fascists from making further inroads into mainstream politics.”
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/noam-chomsky-antifa-major-gift-right-wing-anti-fascist-alt-left-a7906406.html

  99. Matters Not

    H your link is to the Gatestone Institute (you never check the reliability of your sources for some strange reason.)

    The Gatestone Institute (formerly Stonegate Institute and Hudson New York) is a right-wing think tank that publishes articles, particularly those involving Muslims or the Middle East. The organization has been criticized for publishing inaccurate articles.

    Gatestone was founded in 2012 by Nina Rosenwald, who serves as its president. Former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John R. Bolton is its chairman

    Just for your information – Bolton is a right wing nut job.

    On November 18, 2016, Gatestone published an article that said the British Press had been ordered to avoid reporting the Muslim identity of terrorists by the European Union. Snopes rated the claim “false”. Snopes pointed out that the report only made a recommendation and it was issued by the Council of Europe, not the European Union. Gatestone subsequently corrected the article and apologized for the error,before removing it entirely from its website.

    It’s the era of fake news. Just because it’s in print doesn’t make it accurate, insightful or useful.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute#cite_note-bloomberg-5

  100. jimhaz

    I’m happy with both sides of the issue – the left calming the Muslims, while the right setting the NECESSARY boundaries, which is something the left always chooses to ignore.

  101. jimhaz

    [“When confrontation shifts to the arena of violence, it’s the toughest and most brutal who win – and we know who that is.” — Noam Chomsky]

    Here that seems to be the Lebanese drug gangs.

  102. Michael Taylor

    Here that seems to be the Lebanese drug gangs.

    Without seeing the proof, I’d say that’s a load of rubbish.

  103. Harquebus

    Matters Not
    Thanks for that. Do you have anything that directly contradicts the article?
    I have read many anti Islam articles from Gatestone. Anything that demeans any religion is okay with me.

  104. diannaart

    @ H

    Anything that demeans any religion is okay with me.

    Do you apply that style of reasoning to everything? If you don’t like someone you only look for the bad in that person?

    How is that working out for you?

  105. Matters Not

    H the first para reads:

    The attempt in the West to impose a strict set of rules about what one is allowed to think and express in academia and in the media

    Anyone who has had anything to do with academia knows that such a statement is just nonsense. Any academic institution proceeds on the understanding that everything is up for grabs. Wasn’t that your experience?

    And I gave up after the first three paragraphs. It just got worse from there. Can’t you see that ‘track record’ is important when it comes to the mountain of ‘evidence’ before us? Take Bolt, Pell, Plimer and the like and their views climate science. Do you waste your time reading their BS? Do you waste your time reading about Barry who thinks that their is a heaven above? That the stars are just designs on a carpet floating above us? Surely, one taste is enough. Surely you look at who is making the (ideological) claims? (But apparently not).

    And no doubt you have read many anti Islam articles from Gatestone. LOL. FFS.

  106. Harquebus

    diannaart
    “Do you apply that style of reasoning to everything?” No. There is no reasoning with religion so, it is fair game.

    I don’t like George Brandis. Would one find any good if one looked there? Considering that he is evil incarnate, I probably wouldn’t but, if you are a member of the Liberal Party, you probably would.

  107. diannaart

    You are telling me the likes of Hanson, Brandis are fair game along with religion?

    Are you without fault?

    PS

    Am not a christian, nor the member of any political party, in fact am surprised you would even suggest such nonsense… perhaps you have only skimmed my comments and not ever listened. Perhaps I should judge you the same way you judge everyone.

  108. ceridwen66

    Constantly referencing Wikipedia decimates credibility as does sublime – and occasionally overt – ridiculing of other people’s intelligence, motives and sincerity. In fact, it has the distinct tendency to make one appear pompous, overblown and duplicitous.

  109. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi Kaye,

    A few words in response to your post which begins,

    “Robert, I too am a teacher and constant repetition is a stultifying way to teach.”

    I have been absolutely horrified, disgusted and extremely angry at the way standards in education have been eroded over the last 50 or so years. Although in recent times, I think that the pendulum has begun to swing back just a little, toward a more sane position. I have seen more zany and nutty ideas taken seriously in education over that time than I care to remember.

    Kaye, you can criticize repetition as being a “lazy option”. I feel that it has a place in learning. I was brought up in a system that knew the value of constant practice and drilling in exercises, especially in maths and spelling.

    What musician or elite sportsperson or athlete does not have to constantly practice in order to remain in top form? For me the rot started to set in when the external examinations were abolished at the Form IV and Form V level. It is strange that the cohorts of students who went through school in our era were able to display plenty of creativity, initiative, teamwork, communication skills, critical analysis and leadership. Much of what I have observed, and been required to be complicit in, amounts to what I would call “educational abuse” of children.

    Obviously this is another area where a chasm the size of the Valles Marineris divides us.

    “What I am pleading for is a discussion, and reaction, that is relative to the threat.”

    Well Kaye, I am doing my best to accommodate your desire in that regard. It is a pity that we can only seem to agree to disagree. I understand that you hold views which differ from mine. Your thinking is very difficult, indeed almost impossible, for me to comprehend. I do try to understand how you think though, believe it or not.

    “Many Muslims who were there condemned the violence. “Those people do not represent me! The violence is far more insulting then the movie itself.””

    Well, there you go, I think that we are actually on the same page as far as that one goes.

    “The Lindt cafe siege was by a mentally ill man who was well-known to authorities.”

    Yes, I agree totally with you on this one too, Kaye. I remember discussing this on The Conversation. I made the remark that Man Haron Monis was suffering from a conventional mental illness which was superimposed on the mental illness of religious belief. That post disappeared pretty quickly. It was obviously considered to be ‘politically incorrect’ by the thought police commissars there.

    We live in a fairly ruthless capitalist society Kaye. Not nearly enough attention is paid to treating and monitoring those who suffer from conventional forms of mental illness. I certainly do remember the shocking news of the woman who killed her 8 children in Cairns. These tragedies will continue while insufficient attention is paid to mental health issues. One can only imagine what the situation must be like in America where probably less attention is paid to those with mental health issues, especially those who are poor. And all this is on top of the ready access to firearms that the Americans have.

    I wondered if you would pick up on the contradiction inherent in my statement that,

    “I have immense respect and admiration for this woman and other Muslims like her.” and “most Muslims do not represent a threat to Western Civilization” yet you say we must ““Keep Muslims out.”

    Well spotted, Kaye, To be quite honest, I have not totally resolved that conundrum in my own mind yet.

    “You clearly want to live your life in irrational fear that the Saudi government is about to take over Australia. There is no arguing with those sort of crazy notions”

    Thank you Kaye for trying to sooth and ally my (perceived) fears of the Saudi Government. Your altruism is shining through like a beacon. I feel that I can come out of the cupboard now where I have been hiding all morning and pull the blinds up without feeling too threatened.

    Although Kaye, I should say, that it does seem that I am not the only one who is concerned about the activities of The House of Saud and the spread of Wahhabism. See:

    https://clarionproject.org/tracing-saudi-arabias-export-terror/

    and

    “While Saudi Arabia is often a secondary source of funds and support for terror movements who can find more motivated and ideologically invested benefactors, Saudi Arabia remains perhaps the most prolific sponsor of international Islamist terrorism, allegedly supporting groups as disparate as the Afghanistan Taliban, Al-Quaeda, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and the Al-Nursa Front.”

    Financing Terrorism: Saudi Arabia and Its Foreign Affairs

    (My apologies for not being able to keep this post shorter.)

  110. Robert REYNOLDS

    [“When confrontation shifts to the arena of violence, it’s the toughest and most brutal who win – and we know who that is.” — Noam Chomsky]
    Here that seems to be the Lebanese drug gangs.

    Well said, jimhaz.

  111. Kaye Lee

    I agree the Saudis are a worry but to us they are just a customer to whom we, along with everyone else, are more than happy to sell as many weapons as they want to pay for.

  112. jimhaz

    [Without seeing the proof, I’d say that’s a load of rubbish]

    It is why a middle eastern crime squad was created and state govs started cracking down on bikies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_mafia

  113. Kaye Lee

    Was Carl Williams Lebanese?

  114. Robert REYNOLDS

    Totally agree Kaye. To me this is the American military-industrial complex at its worst. Profit comes before everything else. I think that Karl Marx said something along the lines that if the capitalist was in jail in the evening, awaiting his hanging in the morning then he would be willing to sell the hangman the rope provided he could make a profit.

    “President Obama sold the kingdom $112 billion in weapons over eight years, most of which was a single, huge deal in 2012 negotiated by then-Secretary of Defense Bob Gates. To get that deal through Congressional approval, Gates also negotiated a deal with Israel to compensate the Israelis and preserve their qualitative edge over their Arab neighbors. With the fall in oil prices, the Saudis have struggled to meet their payments since.”

    The $110 billion arms deal to Saudi Arabia is fake news

  115. jimhaz

    @ Robert

    My interest is always in the limitation of immigration of muslims from middle eastern countries and african muslim countries for that matter – so as to prevent fundamentalism getting much of a hold in Australia. I’m sure this would enable the modernisation of muslims already here to progress much faster.

    As Kaye says most already are quite moderate, the majority are even far less a concern than boganism (for which I have decided excessive immigration is partly to blame), but I personally do not believe that would be the case under the immigration levels and “leave them alone” paradigm we hear from most here.

  116. Michael Taylor

    As a person of Middle Eastern origin I find your racist comments rather insulting and offensive.

    My mother’s family were Lebanese refugees who came to this country via Syria.

  117. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi jimhaz,

    if you have not already read it, I would thoroughly recommend the recently published book entitled “The Strange Death of Europe” by British author Douglas Murray.

    To give you a sense of what the book is about, here is a link to a radio interview conducted by the ABC’s Phillip Adams with Douglas Murray for the radio program “Late Night Live”. The interview is just over 19 minutes long and is well worth listening to.

    [audio src="https://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2017/06/lnl_20170613_2240.mp3" /]

  118. Kaye Lee

    “To be quite honest, I have not totally resolved that conundrum in my own mind yet.”

    Perhaps, if you started with the fact that Muslims are individual people might help. Not all Muslim women are oppressed. Not all Muslim men are terrorists and pedophiles. Not all Muslims take every phrase in the Quran literally any more than Christians take the violent exhortations in the Old Testament literally.

    Instead of just listening to these people who are making a living on the Muslim bashing speaking tour, look at the work of Mirza Masroor Ahmad, the caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. He exhorts Muslims worldwide to strengthen interfaith relationships, champion religious freedom and embrace the separation of church and state.

    Listen to Malala Yousafzai speak. Her powerful words delivered with quiet dignity are inspirational.

    There are good Muslims fighting for the same things you are. Together we are far stronger than divided and suspicious of each other.

  119. jimhaz

    [As a person of Middle Eastern origin I find your racist comments rather insulting and offensive]

    I knew in advance that you would Michael. There is a lot of déjà vu about this thread. I do not hold back what I say in order to be amicable.
    It does not make them wrong though. If they are wrong, it should be provable.

    I find the combination of a) being from war torn (including inter-religion or tribal based fighting) heritage and the misogyny and arrogance I believe is contained in the cultural effects of the muslim religion, C) the actions of terrorists causing fear and dislike – all put together leads to excessive machoism – from which comes a higher propensity to commit crimes involving violence.

  120. Harquebus

    Matters Not
    The silencing of sections of the science community is not imaginary.

    diannaart
    Is George Brandis a religion? Perhaps it is you that is skimming over comments.

    Am I without fault?
    If one does not consider narcissism as a character fault then, yes.
    (Jus’ kidding.)

    Kaye Lee
    While religions continue to target and brainwash kids, there is nothing good that can be said of any of them.

    “Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. They thrive on servility and shrink before independence.” -— Chapman Cohen

  121. Michael Taylor

    It does not make them wrong though. If they are wrong, it should be provable.

    jimhaz, by that comment alone, I get feeling that you’ve already found them guilty.

    My family are innocent of any crime. We don’t have to prove it.

  122. Kaye Lee

    Most of my Lebanese friends were Catholic and I found their families to be very welcoming and very bad for my waistline. Aunties would continually tell me I needed to eat more as they served me wonderful home cooked treats.

    It is just silly to say Muslims are bad or Lebanese are bad or Aboriginals are bad or Catholic priests are bad or bogans are bad. That has not been my lived experience in Australia. Some individuals are bad. Let’s save our approbation for them and stop pretending that we can lump all people in together on the basis of their ethnicity or religion or clothes. I am sure there are some very nice people who choose to wear blue singlets..

  123. diannaart

    >

    Is George Brandis a religion? Perhaps it is you that is skimming over comments.

    @ H

    Clearly not, Brandis is an individual, my point being (I guess you missed it) do you judge individuals such as Brandis in the same manner you do religions?

    That is “fair game” for your hatred?

    You and RR have much in common, you do not listen to anything contra to your beliefs and you treat those who do disagree with contempt.

    I fear people like you, who foment hatred and fear, most of all.

  124. Robert REYNOLDS

    Kaye, please allow me to reassure you that I am very well aware that:

    Firstly, Muslims are individual people.

    Secondly, not all Muslim women are oppressed.

    Thirdly, not all Muslims take every phrase in the Quran literally. (And let’s thank Allah for that.)

    Fourthly, not all Christians take the violent exhortations in the Old Testament literally, (And let’s thank Christ for that.)

    I wish Mirza Masroor Ahmad well in his endeavors to persuade Muslims to “strengthen interfaith relationships, champion religious freedom and embrace the separation of church and state.”

    Of course we all admire Malala Yousafzai for her amazing courage as an activist who stood up to the Taliban and for her work in promoting female education.

    Yes Kaye, they are good Muslims.

  125. Michael Taylor

    “Yes Kaye, they are good Muslims”.

    I see things differently: “they are good people”.

  126. Michael Taylor

    Kaye, I appreciate that you don’t check your emails regularly (your admission ?), but I have just sent you something you need to see.

  127. Robert REYNOLDS

    O.K. Mike, I take your point. They are “good people too”.

  128. Kaye Lee

    LOL busted…haven’t looked for ages. I will check now Michael.

  129. Harquebus

    diannaart

    “do you judge individuals such as Brandis in the same manner you do religions?”
    Yes. By their actions.

    “you do not listen to anything contra to your beliefs and you treat those who do disagree with contempt.”
    I do listen. The fact that you and others have failed to convince me otherwise on certain matters is due to poor arguments and unsubstantiated alternative facts. Call me skeptical.

    I do have a low opinion of some which, I suppose, could be interpreted as contempt. You I would not put you in this category. Misguided is more you.

    “I fear people like you, who foment hatred and fear, most of all.”
    We have a lot to be fearful of however, I deny fomenting these things.

  130. diannaart

    I do listen. The fact that you and others have failed to convince me otherwise on certain matters is due to poor arguments and unsubstantiated alternative facts. Call me skeptical.

    H

    You do not listen you reject. Out of hand rejection, irrespective of what is said. Whatever comments are made, if they do not fit your hypothesis of overpopulation as the single most important crisis facing humanity – you do not want to know about it.

    I and others, far more succinct and informative than I, have provided substantiated facts – not lies, which is all “alternative facts” are. For my part, I research, quote from and link to science – respected scientific inks from NASA, BOM, CSIRO to various universities, peer reviewed essays from sites such as the Conversation. I do not stop at just a link to Wiki – I check their sources. That is how research is done by checking the bona fides of claims made.

    You are not sceptical, you are just another denier.

    I and others believe that population is only a part of the problem facing us, we have work to do in so many areas from the political to the personal, I don’t know if we will succeed. But I do know trying to solve a single problem without addressing all such as climate change, pollution, finite resources, is futile.

    Yes I have been misguided, misguided into letting myself be goaded into responding to you, when all you are is a waste of my valuable time.

  131. Harquebus

    diannaart
    I don’t wish to discuss this here. Hijacking you know. I will just say what I said to Miriam English. Your side won. It does not matter what I think now. Society has chosen, dare I say it here, the renewable energy path. Now it is time for technology to prove itself. Let’s see how it pans out and in the mean time, I will prepare for when it doesn’t. Don’t forget, technology is something that I know something about.

    You can follow the dream. You will find a nightmare.

    http://energyskeptic.com/

    No more on this subject on this page from me.

  132. Matters Not

    diannaart re:

    Yes I have been misguided, misguided into letting myself be goaded into responding to you, when all you are is a waste of my valuable time.

    Also guilty of that stupidity! Hangs head in shame and vows never to respond again. (Actually, I think it’s better I give this site away for some time in an effort to keep my blood pressure down.)

  133. Kaye Lee

    MN,

    I would be very disappointed if you left. I agree it can be frustrating but the dialogue can make a difference, Maybe not with some, but you know the song….I won’t put my hands up and surrender. Australian society has such potential – we are probably better placed than anywhere else to actually show that a diverse population can live together respectfully – if we could just get rid of those who would stoke the fire for their own political gain or because of their own irrational fears….and those who would shut down the discussion about future directions because they have too much invested in the apocalypse scenario. Do we depart the arena and leave them to it?

  134. Roswell

    Matters Not is one of the most important commenters on this site. I simply love the way he deals with the idiots. Sorry I have to call them that, but they are. I gain much enjoyment from Matters Not’s comments.

    If people like Matters Not want to have a spell from this site because of the dominance of those idiots, I would recommend that we ‘drain the swamp’ of those idiots.

  135. Roswell

    All the authors and moderators here have a fair amount of autonomy. More so than anywhere else.

    As a moderator I have one principal: if a particular person is driving people away from the site … that person is blocked. Simple. End of story.

  136. Harquebus

    What I don’t understand is, no matter what I say or how I say it, it’s always my fault.
    I can’t always be wrong, surely. That would mean that others who hang out here are always right. A bet that I am not willing to make. Sorry.

    Roswell
    I disagree with a lot here on a lot of things and am willing to say so. That is all.
    I am not an idiot. Do you think that my family, friends and neighbors would be following my example if I was or would they all be idiots as well?
    Now is not the time and this is not the place to go into this but, I am sure that there will be, eventually and I look forward to it.
    I invite you again to join my mailing list. Refer to theAIMN environment section for a few examples.

    Goodnight.

  137. Zathras

    “Here that seems to be the Lebanese drug gangs.”
    Before that is was the Asian Triads
    Before that it was the Italian Mafia
    Before that… well I’m sure the Irish were in that list somewhere.

    Apparently, despite our convict heritage, there have never been any Anglo-Australian criminals.
    If it wasn’t for all those immigrants we could probably disband the Police Force.

    Then again, who are the customers who keep the drug gangs in business, who launders their money and through which companies?

  138. Robert REYNOLDS

    “(Actually, I think it’s better I give this site away for some time in an effort to keep my blood pressure down.)”

    Matters Not, please let me give you some gratuitous advice. If you do give this site away then do not go to The Conversation or your blood pressure will ‘soar through the roof’. I am speaking from experience.

    I think that you and I have ‘crossed swords’ a couple of times but quite frankly I do not even remember what it was about.

    As I have to keep reminding myself all the time, if you want to be part of one of these ‘discussion sites’ then you have to be prepared to be subjected to views that you find utterly distasteful, foolish and frustrating. I am sure that that is how many people view what I have to say and that is their right. My ‘mission impossible’ is to try to make my adversaries ‘see the light’.

    I would suggest that you stay, perhaps after having a bit of a rest. And please, Matters Not, feel free to give me a good tongue-lashing when you think I deserve it. I view a site like this as a place where we can discuss our views openly. I think that I can honestly say that I have not come across anyone here who I bear any malice towards.

  139. Robert REYNOLDS

    Roswell, your recommendation that,

    “…… we ‘drain the swamp’ of those idiots.”

    sounds rather ominous. By ‘idiots’ you presumably mean anyone who sees the world differently to the way you do. If that is the case then that sounds rather ominous.

    With views like that, I think that you would be more suited to The Conversation.

  140. Robert REYNOLDS

    “As a moderator I have one principal: if a particular person is driving people away from the site … that person is blocked. Simple. End of story.”

    And if you do not like the views that someone is expressing then it is so easy to simply claim,

    “Ohh goodness, gracious me, they were driving people away from the site, so I really had no other choice than to block them.”

    Roswell, are you sure that you have not been at The Conversation before?

  141. Kaye Lee

    “My ‘mission impossible’ is to try to make my adversaries ‘see the light’.”

    My mission is to learn.

    “anyone who sees the world differently to the way you do”

    You condemn 23% of the world’s population saying they have no right to even come to Australia. You ascribe the sins of a few to 1.6 billion people. Despite there being Muslims in virtually every country on the planet, you lump them all in together – they all have the same beliefs, the same motivation, the same mission in life to kill the infidel.

    There is no “light” emanating from your bushel.

    And l would ask you to lay off Roswell who works tirelessly to give us this venue, or I will delete your comments. Thanks in advance.

  142. Johno

    Harquebus.. I had a look at the overshoot day site and did the footprint calculator. As I am a baby boomer I was curious about how many planets I need to fund my lifestyle. According to the footprint calculator I need 3.75 planets. We live in a energy efficient house (strawbale and no aircon) and I gave up flying a decade ago but I still need 3.75 planets. Go figure. Albeit my km’s are high for work and cutting out the km’s on the calculator it came down to 2.2 planets.

  143. Roswell

    Robert, you may mock me if you want but I am more concerned about the viability of this site than I am to what you want from it.

    I keep a very close eye on the site’s statistics and I notice correlations between the number of visitors (or lack of them) when particular people are commenting. Some people do drive people away and I regret to advise that you are one of them.

    I am aware that the owners run this site at a loss as it is. Why would I want to let that continue?

    As I said, mock me if you like … but you won’t be having the last laugh.

  144. Harquebus

    Johno
    Thanks for that. The unemployed, by consuming the least are actually doing the most good. Something else that I am having trouble getting across.

    Kaye Lee
    I can not understand your defense of religions. They are a blight on humanity. The only sympathy I have toward religious practitioners is that they were probably brainwashed as kids. Child abuse in my opinion. As adults, they should have the sense to know better.
    I was brainwashed as well but, came to my senses in my early teens. My interest in science being the main factor.
    I think that we really need to break the cycle on this one. Stop brainwashing kids. Religions have held us back long enough.

  145. Mark Needham

    A person at the age of say, 25, is ” our children are better people than us and should be applauded for their enlightenment,” After, say 20 years of lifes learning, and 12 years of “education”

    Where as a person at 50, are not as understanding as their off spring. Stultified, Racist, uneducated and uncaring.

    Then the 25 year old in 25 years time will be…..what?

    More of the same?,
    Mark Needham

  146. Kaye Lee

    Harquebus, I am not defending religion. I am unwilling to stereotype – to somehow believe that 1.6 billion people living all over the planet are out to get me.

  147. Harquebus

    Roswell
    I see. It’s not about a free and open exchange of ideas. It’s about the money. I should have known.
    Perhaps opening up a little will bring in some fresh faces and subsequently, increase revenue.

    Kaye Lee
    It depends on what you mean by get you. Once Islam has you, there is no easy escape.

  148. Deanna Jones

    I’m afraid I don’t care much for boomers, although its only fair to acknowledge their involvement in political activism. There are many boomers at the rallies and marches I attend. But it’s the culture of greed that I hate. The “investors” taking more than they need and compromising people’s basic right to shelter, particularly the Sydney boomers. Double, triple, quadruple-dipping, then walking past people living in tents. My landlord owns about eight other apartments just in my building alone. All we need is our own little pocket.

    All political correctness means is including everyone.

  149. Roswell

    No, Harquebus, it’s not about money. It’s about viability. If all the owners wanted was to make money then they’d turn The AIMN into a porn site.

    And I think I’d have more of an idea than you as to what the readers here want.

    But yes, this site is about the exchange of ideas. I only wish you’d share in that.

  150. Roswell

    How ironic. I didn’t mention any names last night though I did have two people in mind. And quickly those two people are the only ones to squeal.

  151. Harquebus

    Roswell
    You didn’t need to mention names. You have made that accusation before which, I don’t believe by the way. Not without evidence.
    In the past few months, I have been holding back on occasions for quieter periods so, is it possible that it is correlation and not causation?

  152. Roswell

    Harquebus, I was probably a bit harsh on you. I’ll admit that I wasn’t thinking about you, but I was surprised that you thought I was. Do I capitalised on it. ?

    Now let’s drop it.

  153. diannaart

    @ Harquebus

    Yes, I’m back. Because I just have to ask, where have I stated that technology and only technology is the singular answer to our problems?

    I have stated many times we need changes across the board, from the political to the personal, not just technical changes. The collective unconscious of the haves through to the have-nots requires re-calibration. I have also expressed my doubts as to whether humans can manage this change in the zeitgeist.

    One thing I do know, we cannot turn back time to that of the cave-man (we may well have that forced upon us, if we do not adapt) but we have created many things and they will not easily be shoved back into their boxes.

    The best we can do is use ALL our ingenuity not just the parts which suit you or yours truly. There is no magic bullet.

  154. Roswell

    I for one am glad you’re here, Dianna. I like you.

  155. Kaye Lee

    I too look forward to your comments diannaart.

    All we can do is try to improve. We will never reach perfection. Eventually the sun is going to go out and take the Earth with it. That is inevitable. In the mean time, we just have to do the best we can. Life must be lived in hope of what can be achieved, not despair for what can’t.

  156. Harquebus

    diannaart
    I don’t recall saying that you “stated that technology and only technology is the singular answer to our problems”. I was jus’ sayin’ that I understand technology. That’s all.

    Roswell
    Back off. I liked her first, I think.

  157. diannaart

    Thank you, Kaye Lee.

    Once again you express what needs be and so eloquently.

    BTW

    Are we having some kind of group hug? – if so, the first to play Kumbaya will be dumped upon by a load of punk rocker zombies.

  158. Robert REYNOLDS

    Roswell, in response to your post:

    “Robert, you may mock me if you want but I am more concerned about the viability of this site than I am to what you want from it.

    I keep a very close eye on the site’s statistics and I notice correlations between the number of visitors (or lack of them) when particular people are commenting. Some people do drive people away and I regret to advise that you are one of them.

    I am aware that the owners run this site at a loss as it is. Why would I want to let that continue?

    As I said, mock me if you like … but you won’t be having the last laugh.”

    I have decided to leave this site. I was going to go graciously until I read the thinly veiled threat contained in your last line. If you think that that is why I am leaving then you had better think again, my friend.

    As far as mocking you goes, well you and both know that that is easy for me to do.

    However, I will leave it at that.

    Best regards to:

    Roswell and to the rest of the AIM Team and the contributors.

  159. Roswell

    That’s a win-win for everybody.

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