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Dumb politicians are doing the terrorists’ work for them

When formulating our defence against terrorism, it is important to understand the motives of those who encourage such violence.

The immediate aim is to cause fear.

Despite you being much more likely to die at the hands of your partner, we have people like Pauline Hanson, Cory Bernardi, George Christensen and Sonia Kruger telling us we are afraid to walk down the street because of ‘Islam’!

The Conversation put the domestic terror threat into perspective in an article titled Australians have little to fear from terrorism at home – here’s why.

More Australians have died at the hands of police (lawfully or unlawfully) in ten years (50 at least from 2006 to 2015) or from domestic violence in just two years (more than 318 in 2014 and 2015) than from terrorist attacks in Australia in the last 20 years.

Australian security services, supported by the public and community groups, have been very successful in monitoring the threats. According to the government’s 2015 review, the number of people in the country who have been prepared to commit terrorist acts here remains low.

Public opinion in Australia has an exaggerated view of the terrorist threat inside the country. As early as 2006, two Australian scholars put forward a “thought contagion theory” to explain this phenomenon. It suggests misleading ideas become commonly held beliefs after they are conveyed to many people.

The anxiety is often unnecessarily fuelled by politicians and journalists. One striking example was a warning from The Australian’s Greg Sheridan in November 2015 that the Paris attacks can be viewed as part of a series of threats that may lead to the end of Western civilisation.

But the over-anxiety about terrorist attacks in Australia conforms to a more longstanding phenomenon of Australian insecurity and exaggeration of international threats in almost all quarters. It also comes from the exaggerated fear of becoming a victim of domestic crime.

In this environment of supercharged public anxiety about terrorist threats on Australian soil, opinion leaders in politics, the media and academia have a responsibility to not inflame them.

Another aim of the current crop of Islamist extremists is to create a backlash that turns non-Muslims against Muslims, legitimising the claim that there is war between the West and Islam.

Donald Trump and xenophobic right-wing parties in Europe and here have fallen for this making victims of those people who have been fleeing just such terror in the Middle East.

This persecution of innocent Muslims in their own countries delights the terrorists. It is exactly what they want – for us to turn on each other.

When we unfairly alienate and discriminate against people because of their religion or ethnicity rather than because of anything they have done, we provide fertile ground for those who would groom vulnerable disaffected youth.

David Irvine, head of ASIO until his retirement in September 2014, rejected as “un-Australian” a proposition floated from the right that immigration from Middle Eastern countries should be limited, and praised the efforts of leaders in the Muslim community in helping counter terrorism.

Australia is different to other countries in that, provided we can get the refugees through the ring of steel, we offer very good resettlement and support services to help during the inevitable adjustment period it would take anyone fleeing from war to a very different place.

We should be welcoming them, telling them they are safe now, earning the trust of people who may be very scared, helping them heal and start new lives. It has been shown time and time again, our investment is returned manyfold as they become productive contributing members of the society that gave them a chance to live without fear.

To those that perpetuate this irrational fear of our Muslim brothers and sisters, I have one thing to say.

You’ve been played.

 

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133 comments

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  1. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Kaye. Yes, it’s really awful to see Australians (and Americans and, and, ….) feeding the hatred that fuels Islamic extremism. When we behave like heartless bigots towards refugees, that’s what we’re doing.

    The strange thing is, quite illogical, that the refugees who are fleeing the very terrorists who have killed their families and destroyed their lives, become Muslim Victims of The Great Satan in the eyes of those same terrorists when we turn our backs on the terrible plight of these poor people. As they say in the US of A, ‘Go figure.’ But there’s nothing logical about terrorism just as there’s nothing logical about bigotry.

  2. Kate Ahearne

    And, of course, when a full-scale terrorist attack does occur, which it will if we keep tugging on the tiger’s tail, all sorts of bigots will rise up and point fingers and say, ‘We told you so!’

  3. Steve Laing - makeourvoiceheard.com

    Kaye – it is unfortunately right out of the rightwing play book. Divide and conquer. When it comes to votes, they truly have no scruples. If it means scaring the bejesus out of people, or inflaming their hatred of others, they are more than happy to comply.

    Have you noticed how when he took over Turnbull tried to put out the flames of Abbott’s rhetoric, but now his popularity has started to slip, he has started to ramp up the strong borders etc? When he starts with the multiple flags routine, you’ll know that he knows he’s on borrowed time.

  4. Kaye Lee

    Malcolm doesn’t like to detract attention from himself. He is usually framed nicely by two flags.

    Kate, Trump has already lain the blame squarely at the judge’s feet should there be an attack.

    “Just cannot believe a judge would put our country in such peril. If something happens blame him and court system. People pouring in. Bad!”

    It wouldn’t be anything to do with Trump’s jackboot approach to testing his power.

  5. Miriam English

    Very well said, Kaye. I wish the morons running the One Nation party and some of the right-wing loons in the LNP could understand this. Murdoch’s nasty, dangerous media empire needs to be dismantled in Australia. He is one of the worst offenders for fanning the flames of hate.

  6. Pingback: johnlward010

  7. Kyran

    Aaaaand here we go again. RN is broadcasting parliament live. In the last few minutes, the respective leaders have made ‘speeches’ regarding the Bourke Street Mall incident of January, the passing of Anne Deveson and the anniversary of the Tasmanian fires.
    With regard to the Bourke Street Mall incident, ‘Our PM’ linked in a reference to a homicidal f’wit in Niece driving a truck through a mall, cause he was a terrorist. Seriously.
    Whilst all three ‘speeches’ were clearly prepared and on notice, the contrast between the speakers were as night is to day. Whilst I’m not a fan of Shorten, his messages were on subject (his tribute to Ms Deveson is worth seeking out, IMO).
    It’s ok though, they have all been to church today.
    “The immediate aim is to cause fear.”
    Does being terrified of the nuph-nuphs in parliament count?
    Thank you Ms Lee, and commenters. Take care

  8. jimhaz

    The higher the population of muslims then the chance of terrorism and calls for utter crap like Sharia Law rises exponentially.

    The article linked to should have included OS deaths.

    But in any case, I just don’t like Muslims. I’ve never heard one put up a sufficiently logical and fair argument. They are like hard core Christians – everything is tainted towards getting their way.

    The population of muslims is high enough for a country like ours, considering their much higher breeding statistics.

    No, we should be not be welcoming them, but we should treat those already here from migration as we would any other group of migrants, and we should have limits on the length of detention.

  9. Kate Ahearne

    jimhaz, ‘But in any case, I just don’t like Muslims.’
    And I don’t like bigots because ‘ I’ve never heard one put up a sufficiently logical and fair argument.’

  10. jimhaz

    [Bourke Street Mall incident, ‘Our PM’ linked in a reference to a homicidal f’wit in Niece driving a truck through a mall, cause he was a terrorist. Seriously]

    There is a link (though I’ve not heard what MT said) – namely that “if you suffer from delusions of grandeur and don’t feel you are given the respect you think you deserve, then it is OK to commit an act of terrorism to seek vengeance”

  11. nurses1968

    Kate Ahearne
    “feeding the hatred that fuels Islamic extremism.”
    Don’t you think that could also be the reverse?
    “Islamic extremism feeding the hatred’
    Pretty difficult to come away from youtube after viewing the acts of extreme Islam without a feeling of rage

  12. jimhaz

    I don’t see why there is bigotry in saying one does not like something. They want something from us, not us from them. It is the same as we do not want the most vocal holocaust deniers, so we deny them entry. Many muslims believe jewish genocide nowadays would be fine.

  13. guest

    Trump replied to a question about Putin as murderer. Trump said none of us are perfect; we have all killed.

    Think about it. Even in the Old Testament, god destroyed the “bad guys” who upset him.

  14. Florence nee Fedup

    Listen show BBC last night. The man’s brother was one of the reporters who was beheaded after 12 months being held. His message was not to hate or blame Islamism. He believe this is what ISIL wants. He travels the world spreading his message addressing many different groups including visits to Mosques. Many Muslims apologise with tears. His answer is that they have nothing to apologised for. It was a very moving pod.

  15. Kate Ahearne

    nurses, Of course. That part is obvious. It’s the reverse side of the coin that Kaye is talking about and that I have also pointed to that is not so often understood.
    Feel your rage, but should it be directed at all Muslims? Let’s not forget that Muslims are very much more likely to be victims of terrorism than non-Muslims, and that Muslim extremists are not the majority of Muslims.

    jimhaz, you make a lot of big, general statements. How many Muslims do you actually know? And,yes, ‘they’, the refugees, do want something from us – decency, fairness and help in terrible times.

  16. Kate Ahearne

    guest, ‘Even in the Old Testament, god destroyed the “bad guys” who upset him.’ If you’re Christian, you probably know that there is also a New Testament.

  17. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Florence. Thanks for remiinding us.

  18. MeAgain

    Oh dear, This website says that Trump is demonizing Muslims by denying them immigration into the US. Where has this website been for the past 16 years? Didn’t anyone notice that the George W. Bush regime said “We have to kill them (Muslims) over there before they (Muslims) come over here.”
    Trump has not said that he wants to “kill them over there.” He has said that if the masses of peoples we have dislocated and whose families we have murdered want to come here, they might wish to exact revenge. Having made Muslims our enemies, it makes no sense to admit vast numbers of them.
    But of cause, who cares what the truth is. As long as we can point the finger at someone we’re happy.

  19. guest

    Kate Ahearne, thank you. I do know about the New Testament – and I could not understand why there was the change in god’s attitude. I just thought it was about the fact god drowned the baddies in the Old Testament, fire next timein the New Testamant (something to look forward to).

    So the New Testament tells us to turn the other cheek, love those who hate us…Well, I do not see much of that carried out in practice, even in “Christian” countries. In fact, when some 19 Saudis hit the twin towers (Saudi is exempted by Trump), the Coalition of the Willing set out to bomb Iraq to bits – and succeeded, creating the vacuum for ISIS to fill.

    The reasoning is that we do unto others before they do unto us. But Oz is not a Christian country, no matter what the pundits tell us about the values of the West, the Enlightenment and Christian values. We are a nation basically obsessed with money and property and big deals – which we have seen in Oz ever since 1788. So we talk of security, military strength and flogging off our primary produce for profits no matter the cost. Think poverty, climate change denial and fear of the “other” who might come across the sea and try to take it all away.

    But our masters tell us god is in his heaven and all is right with the world. The lucky country!

    There is something wrong out there, and a retreat to the Golden Age of the past is not going to work. Are you there, Messers Trump, Turnbull , etc?

  20. Kate Ahearne

    guest, Yes, indeed, there are many, many people who call themselves Christians but who don’t bother with the essential teachings of the Gospels, and it seems that these are the ones you are seeing. That’s a pity, because there are countless others who do truly try to live their lives in the ‘Do unto others’ spirit. It’s sad that you aren’t seeing any of them. I’m not a Christian myself but I do know some excellent ones.

  21. jimhaz

    [How many Muslims do you actually know?]

    I’m not sure how many – there may be some who don’t advertise their religion. None on non-work basis – apart from a couple of shop owners.

    All have been harmless, no angry types amongst them – but we are talking a tame office environment where that is expected. Of those I’ve closely worked with, only two have done the praying facing mecca thing at work, but all do Ramadan. None of the ones I know best have been from the middle east, most are from India, Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. Apart from an Indonesian fellow, who did have a nice temperament, they’ve been in the west for some time. I’ve been on friendly terms with them all. None have been without their faults though – averaged out I’d say they’ve been more stupid workwise than other groups, no terrific employees amongst them – something seems missing – like an open mind.

    They seem more normal than the short tempered, arrogant or self absorbed middle eastern muslims I have met outside work. Too many pigs.

    Overall though the big issue is about what they believe – I do not want what they believe in religiously to have an effect on our democracy, and I’m not talking about sharia, but what they have in common with other religious fundies here in Australia – social conservatism or even regression. We don’t need any more social conservatives than we already have, particularly with an aging population.

    Also, this whole ‘broad secular multiculturalism is morally best’ creed has been taken too far – we can’t even get rid of abusers like scientology because it has become UNTOUCHABLE dogma.

    I’m also against immigration per se nowadays. I know it NOW has more downside than upside.

  22. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks for answering my question, jimhaz. I appreciate it. Just one thing. You say, ‘None have been without their faults though.’ Surely nobody is without their faults.

  23. nurses1968

    Kate Ahearne
    I begin to question just how much “false truth” is fed to the general public
    Did you know of this? hardly what we hear and read regularly

    Republic of Nauru ‏@Republic_Nauru 31 Dec 2016

    Happy New Year! Here are those from our refugee community partying at a restaurant owned by refugees! #unity #nauru

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1ABkAeUoAAu9WN.jpg:large

  24. Kyran

    jimhaz, I’m curious.
    25.3% of the Australian population identify as Catholic (2011 census). Of them, only about 1/3rd were ‘practicing’. Their rules prescribe various practices that are not acceptable to the wider Australian public. Ironically, their family planning ‘rules’ are the most repugnant to most Australians. They have not yet changed Australian law to disallow a woman her own choice when it comes to her own body.
    The same census had the Muslim population of Australia at a bit over 2%. In your wildest dreams, how is Sharia law more likely than Canon law?
    With respect, your reference to their much higher breeding statistics beggars belief. Ireland has a population that has fluctuated between 3.5 and 5 million people. There are more than 17 million people world wide who identify as 1st or 2nd generation Irish. More than 1/4 of the worlds population identify as having some Irish hereditary. Obama joked, on St Pat’s day last year, that he would change his name to O’Bama to acknowledge their influence. And you’re worried about Muslim breeders?
    With regard to the link between the motives of the homicidal f’wit in Niece and the homicidal f’wit in Melbourne, the only one that I can see is that they were homicidal f’wits. Their motivation, to me, is a side show. A distraction. Ms Lee’s article points that out pretty well.
    Ms nee Fedup, Alpha Cheng is another inspiration. A 15 year old kid killed his father. The kid was branded as a Muslim terrorist. Mr Cheng describes him as a troubled 15 year old kid.
    Apologies for the rant. Thank you for the opportunity. Take care

  25. Kate Ahearne

    nurses, I was unaware of this, but your link only goes to a photo, and the twitter links are useless to me because I’m a twitter nitwit. Maybe someone can come up with corroborating evidence that I can look at.

  26. nurses1968

    Kate Ahearne

    Baron Waqa is President of Nauru.
    Baron Waqa
    The Australian
    12:00AM August 22, 2016

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/media-mudslingers-distort-the-image-of-nauru/news-story/e6330a8de43691a2b0fbd882ffee8a91
    “OPINION
    Media mudslingers distort the image of Nauru

    “Talk of “child abuse” is offensive and just plain wrong. Children live with their parents, not in “detention”, and no one is seriously suggesting their families are abusing them. All children have access to education, health and welfare services. There is no detention on Nauru, as our centres are open. Every person is free to come and go — day and night. Some asylum-seekers and even those who have received a negative determination stay with friends in the community or rent private houses. Photos you see of people behind fences are taken for propaganda purposes only — all asylum-seekers can travel within our community at will, with transport provided. Refugees live in good accommodation — far better than local Nauruans — and while some asylum-seekers still live in tents, it should be remembered that the only reason tents were erected is because asylum-seekers burned down their newly built accommodation in 2013.

    Many refugees enjoy productive lives. Some have started businesses and others have responsible positions in our government — even providing security to government ministers.

    But some refugees — coached by activists in Australia — cause trouble, refuse to send their children to school and encourage others to do likewise, as they mistakenly believe social unrest will help them get to Australia, their ultimate agenda.”

  27. Deanna Jones

    Thanks, Kaye. I’ve been saying for years that husbands kill more people than radical terrorists but apparently this is not a serious issue. It’s true we have more to fear from police who routinely carry out public killings, with impunity. For all the power that police have they don’t seem to be able to do anything about all these murderous husbands. Talk about wrongheaded allocation of resources. I once saw 7 or 8 police in 4 or 5 cars chase down and crash tackle a man who had stolen a shirt from Myers. When it rains they get on the trains to throw off homeless people sheltering from the weather. They harass people of colour and people who are unwell or have disabilities. This week they were checking Opal cards FFS. We are paying armed law enforcement agents to check train fares. While all around them there is family violence going on, sexual assaults, child abuse. Such effed up priorities.

    jimhaz your commentary about Muslim people is absolute fracking garbage.

  28. Deanna Jones

    Nurses, maybe go to a refugee rights rally and talk to people who have been in the camps.

  29. Kate Ahearne

    nurses, thanks for the quote and the link. I’ll check it out.

  30. Kaye Lee

    jimhaz, the idea that all Muslims are the same is absolute rubbish.

  31. Kaye Lee

    gunshot homicides in America totalled 8,124 in 2014

    the death rate from gun homicides is about 31 per million people — the equivalent of 27 people shot dead every day of the year

    For men 15 to 29, gun homicides are the third-leading cause of death, after accidents and suicides.

    Should we ban all Americans from coming here? Obviously they must all be violent.

  32. Kate Ahearne

    Kaye, Thanks for the common sense.

  33. MeAgain

    The facts are emerging…
    As Bloomberg reports, the company footing bill for the legal brief signed by more than 120 mostly tech companies that oppose President Donald Trump’s executive order on immigration, is none other than the Company which offered Hillary Clinton its “strategic plan” to help Democrats win the election, and track voters, and which hired former Clinton Foundation CEO, Eric Braverman: Google (technically, its parent company Alphabet).
    Eventually, the funding – which should be a nominal matter for most of the tech giants who are on a crusade to keep cheap H1-B workers – may end up being distributed: other companies have offered to fund a share of the fee, Bloomberg writes, and Alphabet, which coordinated the effort, plans to accept the offers. However, for now it’s only Alphabet who is paying Washington, D.C.-based law firm Mayer Brown LLP to handle the friend-of-the-court brief.

    And still no-one is saying boo about stopping the destruction that has caused this crisis in the first place and haven’t said boo for over 10 years but what would I know.

  34. MeAgain

    …but it appears it may not be just Alphabet..

    Soros Fingerprints All Over Anti-Trump Lawsuits
    More than a dozen lawsuits and counting have been filed against President Donald Trump’s executive order that temporarily blocks visas from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, and Yemen. Looking beyond the handful of emotional personal stories that are gaining the media’s sympathy, there is a more predictable political power dynamic at play. The lawsuits largely stem from organizations bankrolled by billionaire leftist George Soros and Democratic state attorneys general.

    Surprise,surprise…

    http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/soros-fingerprints-all-over-anti-trump-lawsuits/

  35. Miriam English

    lifezette.com is a clickbait site. I’d beware of believing anything there.

  36. Miriam English

    naturalnews.com is a junk science conspiracy theorist site
    tacticalinvestor.com sounds like a right-wing nutter Russian mouthpiece. I’d be careful of them too.

  37. Robert G. Shaw

    This is quite old now but perhaps one of the more considered and articulate responses I’ve ever heard.
    An incredible woman of verve, intellect, and courage, it was an early argument of hers, and expressed here I think at the 4 to 6 minute mark, that I found to echo my own thoughts on this at times complex, and at others, most simple issue.

    It is unfortunate that to hear her speak one must endure the apologetics of her interlocutor – Hasan. Such a vile little man of soiled morality and pompous bearing.

    Anyway, I thought I’d link the video in view of jimhaz’ comments, and the rebuttals it garnered, I thought it appropriate.

  38. Kaye Lee

    nurses,

    “I begin to question just how much “false truth” is fed to the general public”

    If you are looking for truth about Nauru, Baron Waqa and his Justice Minister David Adeang are not the place to find it. They are both horribly corrupt and have been making a personal fortune selling out the country, first to Getax, the phosphate dealer, and then getting a fortune from our government to run the refugee camp. Foreign aid from Australia, aside from the detention centre money, makes up a quarter of the country’s budget. Nauruans have about 600 jobs thanks to the centre. Of course they don’t want the deal to stop.

    Nauru’s Case Study in Corruption

  39. Florence nee Fedup

    To say all Muslims are the same is ridiculous. Like saying all Christains are. Not even Catholics are the same in different countries.

    If Islamism is the problem, we so called white Christians have a bleak future. There are probably more from many different countries and cultures. From blackest of black, to Asian,to white.

    One would have been wrong to label all Irish as terrorist because some happen to be Catholic or Protestant.

    It is ISIS/L and other terrorist groups that are to blame, not the Islam world. It is the Muslim world that is suffering most from their actions. Why five of more millions have been displaced.

  40. Kaye Lee

    Exactly Florence. How can we close the doors on the peaceful Muslims fleeing from the violence and destruction? It is Muslims who have suffered the most yet we refuse to help those who need us most whilst continuing to bomb their countries.

    People seeking asylum who are living in our communities are 45 times less likely to commit crimes than the local population.

    In fact, someone seeking asylum is 24 times less likely to commit a crime than a federal politician not to mention a member of the catholic clergy.

    The only countries between the Middle East and Australia that are signatories to the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees are Afghanistan and Iran (not ideal if they’re the countries you’re fleeing from), China (always in the market for new people!), Cambodia and Timor-Leste (countries with plenty of their own shit to deal with) and Nauru (*cough*).

    Why can’t all the pesky boat people just “wait in the queue”?

    Mainly because they’re not immortal. The UNHCR only resettles about 73,000 people every year, worldwide. In Syria, about 42,000 people are displaced every day. So jumping on the end of that queue could mean a wait time of around 64 years.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/busting-some-myths-about-asylum-seekers-and-refugees-20160309-gnf7ti.html

  41. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Kaye and Florence.

  42. Kaye Lee

    As for the claims that George Soros is behind the court cases against Trump’s edict, let’s get real here.

    The primary plaintiffs are two Democratic-leaning states that border Canada: Washington, where Robart sits, and Minnesota. They were backed in a court brief filed by 16 state attorneys general.

    A number of groups have filed briefs backing the states’ efforts, including the American Civil Liberties Union, the Southern Poverty Law Center — which monitors extremism in the US — and the HIAS refugee protection organisation.

    Nearly 300 law professors and some 130 Silicon Valley firms have also submitted arguments supporting Robart’s opinion.

    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/donald-trumps-travel-ban-faces-its-biggest-legal-test-yet/news-story/b0e49fe735f2ed901d0e15b7cc39d83e

  43. MeAgain

    Basically what I said, apart from Soros’ innocence but hey, ignorance is bliss and we must parrot MSM mustn’t we.

  44. Florence nee Fedup

    I have spent a few hours over the last couple months visiting Westmead Dental Hospital for specialist dentures.

    Getting there, I go through Epping and Strathfield. The train at this stage is full Asians. mostly Chinese. As I near Parramatta many are Middle East. At Westmead, one is amazed at the number of Indians and like race.

    Funny thing, they are just like us. Heading to work, taking kids to school.

    At the dental hospital I am seen by Dr in dentistry who are doing post graduate work. What is apparent as one spend couple hours with nothing to do but look around. What is noticeable, very few Australians on show. Many dark skins. Some scarves and head covering. I have a male nurse with wife and kids from Ohio.

    Many Chinese and other Asians.

    What is evident how normal the scene is. How they all get on together, Go out of their way to support one another. This is the real Australia. 30 years ago I had a plate made by a very dark PNG fuzzy wuzzy, angels as our soldiers called them. One the best I have had.

    If I went a little further along the line, I would find many Samoans and other Islanders. Funny they live like us. Love there kids. Love cooking in the backyard.

    This is my Australia. One I like. Love the family gatherings where the partners of my kids and grand-kids gather. Little UN in the backyard. That is when one realises colour of skin, culture and nationality and religion mean little. There is much more we have in common than what is different. The difference are superficial,

  45. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Florence. Beautifully said. We needed that.

  46. Robert G. Shaw

    Florence, we are very fortunate in this country.
    Other countries, not so.

    Therein lies the problem.

  47. Robert G. Shaw

    Kaye, it it doesn’t really matter if 4 million law professor’s support Robart.
    There are serious issues with the ruling and we’re all about to find out what they are.
    Remember, at this point we’ve only heard from one side.

  48. Florence nee Fedup

    It is the ISIS terrorists that are very successful at divide and conquer. I can’t understand why most can’t see this.

  49. Miriam English

    ISIS idiots are so much like right-wing politicians: they try to inflame racism and hatred, they love to spend on weapons, they have no interest in social justice, they lean heavily on religion, they have extremely conservative aims, don’t think women deserve rights, they use slogans excessively.

    About the only difference is that ISIS is good at using the internet.

  50. Kaye Lee

    Robert,

    We heard from the other side today in the Appeals Court. The Justice Department, when asked, couldn’t specify the threat that caused the ban so they resorted to “he did it because he can”. The President has the right to determine who represents a threat and who may enter the country was their line. This will be an interesting ruling as it has serious implications for the future power of the president.

  51. Robert G. Shaw

    Kaye, that “line” that you mention: my understanding is that it’s true; the President can decide who enters the country. I read somewhere that there are several precedents for such a ruling: Knauff 1950 and Landon 1982.

    It’s true also that Trump’s case will be hindered by the ‘specifics’, that is, how exactly does this foreigner pose a security threat? But so too will the arguments coming from Washington and Minnesota, who also appeal to the vague and general. Their argument is that their state’s will be negatively impacted by the ban.
    Really?
    How so?

    Anyway, should Trump lose here, this week, I suspect he will not at the inevitable Supreme Court appeal.

    …..

    Credit where credit is due Miriam.
    ISIS are good at lots of things, not just the internet.
    Their skill at butchery is unparalleled; they can separate a head from a body in just one stroke. Usually in a public space thereby demonstrating their skill in the art of the Spectacle. They have solid upper body strength – holding and then pushing a bound gay man off a high building. They are also renowned in the oft forgotten art of stone throwing. Akin to target practice here we have a woman buried to her shoulders and encircled by men, generally her family. The men then hurl the stones.
    The woman, immobile, the target.
    It’s not as difficult as it seems; the men usually stand no further back than a metre or two.
    A very similar practice is the acid throw. Whilst not requiring the muscle of rock throwing, it is nonetheless a most sophisticated action, requiring the deft and quick reflex of its practitioner. Here the man, usually a family member, sneaks up on his victim, a woman, and in an act of surprise, tosses, or flicks, the vessel of acid into her face.
    Another ISIS skill is the mounting of severed heads; forming a row of them across either a dirt road, a shop front, or if necessary, across any surface available. Here we are witness to the time honoured skill in composition and order. Some may call it decorative, others still may see it as a historical quotation. Whatever their purpose one still has to admire their innate understanding of the several key elements of design – scale, repetition, space, symmetry alan etc, and framing.

    There are several others important areas where ISIS excel over the Western Conservative politicians …. their division of society under seventh century religious law, their enlightened notions of gender equality, their nuanced appreciation of technology and education, and finally, their strict adherence to those cardinal principles of man….freedom and liberty.

    Yep, ISIS are so much like right wing politicians.

    I, for, one, have never seen an ISIS jihadist in the same room as a Conservative politician.
    Has anyone?

  52. Kaye Lee

    From your link…

    “the case for the Trump Administration, said, in effect, that the emergency was that the restraining order got in the way of the President’s power to say that there was an emergency—to announce that the country was in danger. Putting a hold on the ban “overrides the President’s national-security judgment about the level of risk,” he said. It was the President’s job to make that determination, not any court’s.”

    Because a property-developer/reality tv show host would have a real handle on national security after one week on the job – stupid laws are irrelevant.

    “And the court also needed to put aside any talk about this being a Muslim ban, because that was not, technically, what the language of the order said. The judges had to believe the President when he said it was all a matter of the country being in immediate peril, and not about his views of any religion or about the demographic future of America. And they certainly shouldn’t pay attention to any reports that the President had, indeed, cited those very reasons for instituting a ban—Flentje dismissed those as “some newspaper articles.”

    Muslim ban is fake news huh?

    Hear it from Donald’s own lips.

    The Republican presidential frontrunner Donald Trump reads a statement issued by his campaign office on Monday calling for a ‘total and complete shutdown’ on Muslims entering the US. Stating that ‘we have no choice’, Trump goes on to say that the authorities should be looking at mosques as there is ‘anger’ within them, and calls on the audience to report ‘violations’ without regard for being accused of ‘profiling’

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-calls-for-complete-ban-on-muslims-entering-the-us-video

  53. Robert G. Shaw

    Yes, I know the contents of the link. I put it up to offer the prevailing view.

    Again, it doesnt really matter if Trump were an illerate bufffoon with only a kingergarten education, mild dyslexia, a wart on his nose, and club foot. The moment, the very second, he was announced President a whole swathe of powers are placed in his anatomically dubious hands.
    He can make any determination he wants – that should never be in question, and I don’t really know why so much has been made of it. To me it’s a distraction from the crucial argument he needs to put up to legitimise his determination.

    Muslim ban?
    In effect, it is. I doubt anyone considers it otherwise, or can say so openly. It’s unsurprising however. The antagonism goes back decades and is the core foreign policy issue of the last 17 years.
    On the domestic front(s – Europe also) these past years have seen scores of deaths that have terrified the general populace. It’s not so much numbers of dead than the threat of random death – from Fort Hood, to Lee Rigby, Westgate shopping mall, Borno Massacre, Charlie Hebdo, Garissa University College, Curtis Culwell Center etc.
    There are simply too many to list here – suffice to say this fear, this anxiety, has settled into the minds of many, with some justicfication, and formed some kind of bedrock impression of Muslim’s as an “enemy”.

    I don’t think anyone could produce a substantial arguement against more rigourous vetting of foreigners. In this instance it will be Trump’s final rationale, and all questions fired at him will be dealt with by this entirely credible default response.
    For those of his mind, and there are millions, he’s doing something substantial.
    Remember Obama and Clinton? They couldn’t, wouldn’t, say the words “radical Islamic terrorism”. I think it rankled quite substantially.

    It certainly did with me and I’m not even a US citizen.

    Anyway, we’ll wait for the outcome. Whichever way it goes it’s certainly going to be interesting.

  54. helvityni

    After 9/11 there has been plenty of mass shootings in America, carried on by their own white people, not by Muslims…

    Even our own ‘terrorist’ Man Monis was known to be unhinged.

  55. Kaye Lee

    They would have more justification in fearing the gun lobby that keeps America armed and the armaments industry in general that keeps the world at war not caring who or what they make their profit from.

  56. Kaye Lee

    The attorneys- general say the 1952 powers given to a president were limited by a 1965 law that prohibits discrimination against immigrants based on their country of origin. They say Trump’s national security arguments are undercut because no one from the countries listed in the travel ban have committed terrorist acts on U.S. soil.

    “Though (the order) cites the attacks of September 11, 2001, as a rationale, it imposes no restrictions on people from the countries whose nationals carried out those attacks,” they say in court papers.

    “The sham of a secular purpose is exposed both by the language of the order and defendants’ expressions of anti-Muslim intent,” they maintain.

    And they argue that Trump’s order violates due process rights established under the Fifth Amendment. While the administration has said foreigners have few rights to force their way into the country, the attorneys general say longtime, legal residents of the U.S. — those who were detained at U.S. airports or stranded abroad by Trump’s order — have every right to do so.

    “A temporary absence from the country does not deprive longtime residents of their right to due process,” they say.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/06/legal-arguments-donald-trump-travel-ban-immigration-muslim-countries/97565202/

    “Yes, I know the contents of the link.”

    And I quoted them so you and others would know to what I was referring. You aren’t the only person here Robert.

  57. jimhaz

    [This is my Australia. One I like. Love the family gatherings where the partners of my kids and grand-kids gather. Little UN in the backyard]

    Yep, and it works just like the UN as well. Namely, ineffectively – and with the same racial/political groupings and underhand dealings (such as Russia paying Africans to Vote in their favour).

    You are in love with the feeling of motherly self-righteousness.

    Ultimately you are no less selfish than me. You put your emotions over those of other Australians – like the ones who have to move further out to socially dead suburbs, low local employment prospects, long travel times or wage undercutting by migrants.

    What about the loss of so much skilled labour from the country of origin. Trained by home countries and used by us.

    What about our own poor or hopeless living in which excessive immigration cuts them out of the game and they lose hope.

    You are also pretending people mix much more than they actually do. They mix at work, but little outside, unless 2nd generation school friends.

    You are not describing Australia – you are describing a work farm pretending to be a community. Excessive migration is forcing more and more people to live their entire lives in flats. It is not my Australia.

  58. helvityni

    Many young professional people flock to apartments close to the city, where the work is, where the entertainment, movies, concerts, art galleries are, where the festivals happen, where good restaurants are situated…and even the top shops are. Not to forget there are people in the streets.
    .
    jimhaz ,your ideal Australia, is not every Australian’s idea of good living, and just as well.

  59. Florence nee Fedup

    What Trump quoting is powers that a president has during declared war times.

  60. Florence nee Fedup

    jimhaz far from similar racial groups.

  61. Miriam English

    jimhaz, so many mistakes in your reply to Florence.

    …just like the UN … racial/political groupings and underhand dealings…

    I think you’ll find the racial, political underhandedness comes pretty exclusively from racist whites.

    You are in love with the feeling of motherly self-righteousness.

    No, she enjoys the multicultural nature of our society. There is a very big difference.

    …selfish… put your emotions over those of other Australians

    No. Again, she enjoys our multicultural nation. The only Australians she might be thought to be overriding are the racists. In that case I think most Australians would agree with her.

    …have to move further out to socially dead suburbs, low local employment prospects, long travel times or wage undercutting by migrants.

    Oh boy. 🙁 Do we really have to dispel this myth again? Immigrants bring more jobs. They help lift the economy for all Australians. If you have problems with the cost of housing or lack of jobs then address the real cause: the LNP policies that feed the housing bubble and are strangling employment.

    What about the loss of so much skilled labour from the country of origin. Trained by home countries and used by us.

    This is the closest you come to an actual real point, but it is still wrong. Yes we cause a brain drain away from those people’s countries, but many also return later and feed their skills back into their country of origin. This helps both them and us. It helps their society and economy, and it helps our relationship with their country (unless petty racists make their stay here an awful experience [looks meaningfully at jimhaz]).

    What about our own poor or hopeless living in which excessive immigration cuts them out of the game and they lose hope.

    Oh geez. Dealt with above regarding employment prospects.

    You are also pretending people mix much more than they actually do. They mix at work, but little outside, unless 2nd generation school friends.

    What jolly rot! If you’re in Melbourne go to Preston Markets, sit down on a seat there and learn.
    Perhaps racists don’t mix, but others do.

    You are not describing Australia

    In my experience she is. And I love it.

    Excessive migration is forcing more and more people to live their entire lives in flats.

    What kind of sad racist life would that be? You don’t come out of your flat because people of other colors are all around????

    It is not my Australia.

    Perhaps you should ponder that and maybe consider leaving… maybe go to an all-white society where racists feel safe in bullying others. Off-hand I can’t think of one, but I’m sure you’ll be able to find one somewhere. I mean white racists are so smart and capable. They don’t need people of other cultures. They should have no problem setting up such a country somewhere, right?

    Dumb politicians are doing the terrorists’ work for them

  62. Kate Ahearne

    jimhaz, You say, ‘What about the loss of so much skilled labour from the country of origin. Trained by home countries and used by us.’ Are you talking about refugees? People who have fled for their lives? If you are, there is no work for them at ‘home’ – only death.’ I don’t like the Australia of your ‘vision’.

  63. Kaye Lee

    “You are also pretending people mix much more than they actually do. They mix at work, but little outside”

    What a load of hooey. My friends and family come from all over the world. I don’t even notice that we look different. I envy the ones who can speak several languages. I love visiting the extended group who have settled in other countries. I don’t fear difference – I enjoy it.

    Your Australia is very different to mine jimhaz.

    And as Miriam said, direct your anger about housing affordability and unemployment and inadequate infrastructure towards those who are actually causing the problem rather than looking for blameless scapegoats.

    If employers are exploiting labour then get angry with the employers, get angry with the government that lets them get away with it, contact the union or Fair Work Australia and dob them in.

    I am sure you think you are a realist rather than a racist jimhaz but your irrational hatred of foreigners indicates otherwise.

  64. helvityni

    Also, how can it the fault of the immigrants that we don’t have enough skilled people to fill some job vacancies.

    To me it means that we are not educating or training enough people for certain jobs and are forced to import them on special visas from other countries. Sadly those countries that educated them ,could also use them at home.

    If some suburban streets are empty, it could a sign that many people there prefer privacy to social interactions.

    Hugh MacKay writes about the loneliness creeping in, so does Menadue on his blog…

  65. jimhaz

    [how can it the fault of the immigrants that we don’t have enough skilled people to fill some job vacancies]

    It isn’t – it is the fault of the government and business and supporters of excessive immigration. Its the Law of Least Expenditure for Maximum Profit that means business will take the path of least resistence to maximise profits. I mean that are even starting to promote internships as a way of getting no cost labour.

  66. jimhaz

    [And as Miriam said, direct your anger about housing affordability and unemployment and inadequate infrastructure towards those who are actually causing the problem rather than looking for blameless scapegoat]

    Classic women’s false arguments. I’m not actually angry with migrants – it is just I find the total effect of high migration to be highly negative. It is pointless arguing with politicians and business when I do not have the majority on my side – and I believe they think that way as they do not look at all the secondary consequences (most people don’t think much about political issues). It is just I believe my points could persuade more to seek a halving of immigration.

  67. Kate Ahearne

    jimhaz, ‘Classic women’s false arguments’? And what a classic male chauvinist remark! Do you really expect to write off women’s opinions with such a put-down of the entire gender? Get yourself a genuine argument and argue it cogently, if that’s possible, but don’t expect to get away with this kind of blatant sexism, because it’s not going to happen.

  68. jimhaz

    [Immigrants bring more jobs. They help lift the economy for all Australians.]

    The myth is that you believe tainted research – research that is very limited in scope and does not include all the ‘unintended consequences’, it concentrates on base statistics like increases in GDP or the number of jobs. Most of that research is put out by vested interests, and I’m afraid that definitely includes Uni’s in this particular case.

    It is just like believing the fake economics theories the wealthy want people to believe.

    [If you have problems with the cost of housing or lack of jobs then address the real cause: the LNP policies that feed the housing bubble and are strangling employment]

    They would clearly have to be forced to comply due to their own vested interests – massive ones in the case of immigration both personally in relation to house ownership and politically in reference to making them appear good by having a growing GDP. There is just no point trying to convince pollies to do the right thing – most of them have ego problems and can only think in terms of bigger is better.

    [Yes we cause a brain drain away from those people’s countries, but many also return later and feed their skills back into their country of origin. This helps both them and us. It helps their society and economy, and it helps our relationship with their country]

    Your points are just not significant enough. Not enough go home to warrant mentioning it or if they do they go home as older non working people. If they feed their skills back wouldn’t that add to a higher benefit if they did it over a lifetime after being trained. PS – I’m actually for training 3rd world folks here as an aid measure, but not as migration. As one example, there would be few countries we accept migration from that have higher doctor patient ratios than us.

    The one significant thing you did not mention is the sending of money back home – however any money sent home is straight out loss to Australia.

    [What jolly rot! If you’re in Melbourne go to Preston Markets, sit down on a seat there and learn.
    Perhaps racists don’t mix, but others do]

    Cherry picking. I mostly see people going out at night in groups of their own nationality.

    Excessive migration is forcing more and more people to live their entire lives in flats.

    [What kind of sad racist life would that be? You don’t come out of your flat because people of other colors are all around]

    You are off track – I was referring again to housing demand and cost. Only flats are available in areas where work is – otherwise they have to move west and increase the bogan population.

    How many of you Progressive Cosmopolitans/Activist Egalitarians were raised as children in blocks of flats? How many will be in the future. How many with casual jobs will have homes when they can afford to retire.

    Reminds me of this song (though he is attacking the wealthy).

    http://www.metrolyrics.com/so-goodbye-lyrics-redgum.html

    [Perhaps you should ponder that and maybe consider leaving… maybe go to an all-white society where racists feel safe in bullying others. Off-hand I can’t think of one, but I’m sure you’ll be able to find one somewhere. I mean white racists are so smart and capable. They don’t need people of other cultures. They should have no problem setting up such a country somewhere, right?]

    Finland has an OS born population of 5.5%, whereas ours is 27.7%, not including large numbers of education and 457 visas.

    It is highly possible that their education system is doing better precisely because it has not been divided by the complexities of multiculturalism and has found it easier to advance.

  69. Harquebus

    Does anyone know what the conclusions of the environmental impact study into our current immigration policy were? I looked but, I couldn’t find it.
    Cheers.

  70. Kaye Lee

    “I mostly see people going out at night in groups of their own nationality.”

    Where on earth do you live? And how do you tell someone’s nationality by looking at them? It would be pretty hard to find an ethnically homogenous group of people everywhere I go. Young people in Sydney have friends of every colour.

    For new arrivals it is natural to gravitate to others with whom you have a language or cultural connection but that changes as they mix more, particularly for the children.

  71. Kaye Lee

    At one point, a judge asked for evidence that the visa ban would actually make the government safer, and the government’s lawyer, August Flentje, responded with the “it’s too hard” dodge. He told the judges that the government had not had a chance to present evidence because “these proceedings have been moving quite fast, and we’re doing the best we can.”

    Why hadn’t the administration gathered evidence to support its claim before issuing the visa ban?

  72. disgusted

    Trump did not lie about Australian Terror Attacks. The Muslim Community was asked to dig deep for donations to Curtis Chengs Family and that is why Alpha Chang is singing their praises. The Federal and NSW Government would no doubt have also paid this family money. Mia Ayliffe Chung has not mentioned if she was given money as I could not find that on the net like the Curtis Cheng. A strange woman that was sending her daughters ashes in vials to friends around the world to places she has not travelled. A mentally sick women who is trying to make out Trump is a liar.

  73. disgusted

    Why is the Springvale Commonwealth Bank matter hushed up. An Asylum seeker who spent his pension on gambling. A Brigidine Nun who supported him and asked for compassion. Given a nice home and pension which he did not appreciate. The house looked mess he never bothered to look after it. Guess he has nice new premises now. No one has ever mentioned how the people are that were burnt in the fire. Over 20 taken to hospital and it has been hushed up. The Bank had to close for a while due to the damage. Bourke St killers brother given a new home even though he was on a criminal charge and should have been deported. No public housing waiting lists for certain criminals.

  74. Matters Not

    disgusted

    A mentally sick women who is trying to make out Trump is a liar.

    Re this trying to make out Trump is a liar bit. Do you think she is having any success? Or do you think Trump doesn’t need any help in being a teller of untruths? Or perhaps you have a few alternative facts you would like to share?

    Apart from the many above of course. You seem to have a talent in that regard.

  75. Roswell

    Kaye, the administration should have done the easy thing and asked disgusted.

  76. Miriam English

    “disgusted”, my house is a mess (not that it’s anybody else’s business). Perhaps I should be deported. Oh wait… I was born here… that’s a free license to be messy.

    “disgusted”, you should change your alias to “disgusting” it would be more appropriate.

    “disgusted”, do you really think Trump is not a liar? Really? I mean… really???

  77. Kate Ahearne

    Miriam, My house is in a mess, too. Thank goodness I was born here! I’ve been having a quiet little laugh to myself about disgusted’s name – reminds me of old jokes we used to make about Letters to the Editor signed by ‘Irate Mother of 10’.

    S/he, of course, offers no evidence for her/his claims. Doesn’t even go to the bother of making any sense!

    BTW. Let me take this opportunity to thank you for so generously sharing your extraordinary grasp of issues relating to computers and climate change. Much appreciated. Go, Girl.

  78. Miriam English

    I think “disgusted” keeps their ears firmly glued to conspiracy news radio.

    Thanks Kate. 🙂 I’ve been trying to write a piece about optimism to post to AIMN, but have been busy and a bit addled by an abscessed tooth, which was finally pulled out today. Woo hoo!! Hopefully it means I’ll get more done soon. I wish I was as productive as Kaye. I don’t know how she does it.

  79. Kate Ahearne

    Miriam, Sorry about the tooth but also glad for you that it’s gone.

    As for what you say about Kaye, I’ve been wondering the same thing myself. It’s not just about production, it’s the quality of the work she produces – day in, day out, and sometimes in the middle of the night This is what’s so extraordinary to me. It’s not just the way she is so ”across’ such a broad spectrum, but that she is so sane, so sensible, so balanced – and so clever, funny and wry, when clever, funny and wry are appropriate. And she’ll send out a barb towards her readers when a barb has been well and truly earned.

    Kaye has been my favourite Australian journalist since I first discovered her work a few years ago. But you, Miriam, don’t have to be as productive as she is, and you don’t have to be as good as she is. We just need to be as good as we can be. (Note to self.)

    I’m very interested in your optimism. I suspect that there are many occasions when pessimism is more appropriate to the truth of the situation, but has no power to change anything, and that optimism, no matter how unwarranted, is where the power lies. Our world is in a desperate pickle. Let’s see what optimism can do.

  80. Kaye Lee

    Oh hush. My house is really messy too. Thankfully I married a man who already knew I was crap at that stuff. My two adult children dare not complain – I just tell them to clean/cook/buy/do/fix whatever is troubling them. Both of their partners have been staying here when they choose to for years. Cory would definitely think me a bad mum.

    I am getting a little bit Buddhist in my philosophy – not in any organised way. I just think they have a point that we must all do what we can and every tiny bit helps. One small act of kindness reverberates around the world. Every person has something to contribute if encouraged to do so.

    And the REAL reason I write here….I was driving my family insane. They are all very grateful that I have another outlet lol.

  81. Robert G. Shaw

    Kaye,
    re: the link – you appear confused. I was already aware of the passages, so there was no need for you to write, “And I quoted them so you and others would know to what I was referring”.
    “so you….”?

    Your final schoolmam condescension made me smile. I imagined you thinking that is was a necessary inclusion.

    To the subject: I read over your responses to jimhaz, and those responses of Miriam, Florence et al and I wondered, and not for the first time – have you, (or the others), been abroad? Have you seen cities that challenge your Benetton vision of ‘I like diversity’? Have you seen the devastation of anxious fractured communities that openly mock your quaint naivety? Have you seen open disdain in the eyes of people on an open street, shopping, on the bus, in a bar.
    Have you felt fear walking the path home, holding tight the hand of your partner, not from your garden variety thugs, but from the loud murmurings of those intent on mischief because of your culture, your nationality, your religion?
    I don’t think you have, certainly not by the way you approach this issue. The wonderfully redemptive notion of people of all cultures, religions, nationalities, living together in a harmonious and kumbaya-like hippy chant where we all burn incense, small each others armpits, and enjoy each other’s culinary treats, is a figment of some teenage imagination. It has no real and lived semblance to many places I’ve seen – places at the frontier of cultures; normally mundane little cities turned front lines in this increasingly bitter and dare I say, incommensurable issue.
    As I said to Florence some time ago, yes, we are very lucky in Australia. Other countries, other cities, other communities, not so.
    I think it’s absolutely crucial to be aware of this singular and irrefutable fact about the real and direct challenges that undermine our (your) ideal vision of multicultural communities.

    —–

    Re: Trump. It’s clear we see this immigration ban quite differently. Much as it pains me to admit, I see it as a win/win situation for him. At each turn he will have a positive rationale. To wit: if it fails in this court, he will say ‘I tried’. If it fails at the supreme, he will say, ‘goddamit I tried!’. If it succeeds in securing more vigorous vetting, he will say, ‘I’ve made this country safer’. If there should be an attack on US soil, he will say, ‘I tried, but the courts and the Dems, stopped me from protecting you’.

    Despite the furore, the confusion, and hasty, messy, EO announcement, this will be, I believe, a victory for him politically, even after his appeal loss today.
    The Supreme court now beckons!
    Again, I just can’t see a downside for Trump on this one, despite the confected meltdowns of the Democrats and their ideological supporters.
    But again, we shall see.

    To AIM: I note that my initial post to Miriam has been cut. The final passages describing my specific thoughts on her hyperbolic and deleterious sentiments – comparing ISIS to Conservative politicians – were removed.
    By all means, remove, cull, crop, censor, as you see fit, but at least have the courtesy and the courage of your convictions to make public note of your actions.
    As in, “editors note: the last paragraph of Robert’s post was cut because we felt it (insert reason here – rude, provocative, abusive, off topic, personal, etc).”
    It respectfully signals to your readership that one, culling does take place, and two, that it’s done in an open, transparent, manner.

    Such secretive acts of censorship also point to the fact of partisanship on this blog: Miriam can mock “disgust” but mockery of Miriam’s nonsense is off limits?
    Hardly seems fair, hardly seems right, hardly seems defensible.

    Issues:

    http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2017/2017R/Bills/HB1032.pdf

    This was just passed in Arkansas. It will become law this year (further to any legal challenges).
    This could be Trump’s route to Roe v Wade. To those who wish t confront Trump on a fundamental right, here it is.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-judge-robarts-national-security-expertise/article/2614043

    It appears as though one incessant post truth of the Left – that none of the seven countries cited by Trump have nationals charged with terror offenses – needs correction.
    And that’s gotta be a good thing, right?

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/02/the-great-god-trump-and-the-white-working-class/

    Great article.

  82. Kate Ahearne

    Kaye, My Mum used to say, ‘Many mickles make a muckle’. I’ve loved that saying all of my life. She didn’t know anything much about Buddhism, but she lived a life that made a difference, one small act of loving-kindness at a time.

  83. Kaye Lee

    Let me too get out my red pen.

    Yes, I was teacher. And yes, I realised that there were other kids in my class beside the loud attention seeking ones. The reason I included the loud one was so I could refer to specific passages, not because I thought the loud one hadn’t read today’s text.

    I was pleased that you began your next paragraph with “To the subject”. This is something we have discussed before and I am glad you have taken note.

    “have you been abroad?”

    Yes. Not to the Middle East or Africa. First hand experience would, I am sure, be devastating, but I do try to inform myself.

    “Have you seen cities that challenge your Benetton vision of ‘I like diversity’? ”

    That would fall into the “condescending prick” category. I was born in Bowraville. There were great things about that and bad things about that. I went to school in the western suburbs of Sydney. There were great things about that and bad things about that. The bad things were attached to discrimination, poverty, lack of resources, lack of choice and self-determination.

    “Have you felt fear walking the path home, holding tight the hand of your partner, not from your garden variety thugs, but from the loud murmurings of those intent on mischief because of your culture, your nationality, your religion?”

    Shouldn’t you be asking that of Australian and American Muslims? Or the refugees we have dumped on Manus and Nauru?

    “It has no real and lived semblance to many places I’ve seen”

    I choose not to be limited by your experience. You try to tell me that I don’t understand how lucky we are? Oh do get off your high horse. You are treating me like I am your pupil.

    “Re Trump: I see it as a win/win situation for him”

    Not according to the courts. Everything else you said in that chapter of your comment is despicably cynical.

    I cut your abuse to make you sound less like a dickhead which is a f*cking hard job. Say thank you.

  84. Kate Ahearne

    Robert, I can’t speak on behalf of this website that has so benignly allowed you to speak of and to others here with such obvious disrespect. But I can speak for myself.

    You’re quite clearly not here to help make the world better place – you’re here to score points and to exploit an opportunity that has been offered to all of us by the goodwill of the people who have made this forum possible and available.

    I don’t know, and I can’t know what drives your bus, but, thanks to you, I can know what it isn’t. Mixing my metaphors here, but If you’re not part of the solution, please get out of the kitchen.

  85. Kate Ahearne

    And Robert, you’re so bloody lucky that you didn’t ask ME if I’d ever been abroad, and if I’d ever been afraid to walk home.
    I’d have decked you!

  86. Matters Not

    Yes Robert G. Shaw the last linked article is certainly an informed viewpoint. Very insightful.

    As for Kate Ahearne’s threat of violence – (.I’d have decked you! ). I am aghast.

    Perhaps there are other sites that may cater for such tendencies … (Just jokin …)

    And just returning the ‘advice’ you gave me re ‘moving on’. LOL.

  87. Kate Ahearne

    Matters Not. When people are really scared or have been really scared for good reason, they don’t smart-talk other people as you and Robert have done. Yes, i’ve been really scared for my life – not on any boulevevarde in Paris.

  88. Matters Not

    they don’t smart-talk other people as you and Robert have done

    KA re your ‘claim’: smart-talk other people and then as you and Robert have done . I have no control over the ‘meaning(s)’ you give to my words – even when I add the requisite LOLs.

    KA, you don’t seem to appreciate that you – and you alone – are the ‘meaning maker’.

    Communicating irony is so very, very difficult.

  89. Miriam English

    Kaye, he went on with even more abuse? Wow.

    Robert, don’t you have any sense of embarrassment?

  90. Kate Ahearne

    What a crock of shit, Matters Not. You make the words, but you are not the meaning-maker.? And ‘Just joking’? I don’t think so. The butt of your joke doesn’t think it’s very funny.

  91. Kate Ahearne

    Kaye, What a wonderful response. Thank you.

  92. Miriam English

    Regarding Trump coming out of the Muslim ban well… nope. Not likely.

    White supremacists are historically twice as likely commit the next mass murder inside USA. And if a Muslim does commit an atrocity I can see people justifying it by saying Trump caused it. Everybody loses all round.

    Trump is feeding a bad situation and making it worse. I’m sure most people realise that his picking at the stitching of society will make things fall apart.

    About a quarter of the population voted for Trump. Large numbers of those are already deserting him, dissatisfied with how the moron is handing over the country to Wall Street, oil barons, and Nazis. Just wait til he destroys their healthcare. And removing controls on banks and Wall Street is certain to bring on another financial crash. He’s going to really stink then.

  93. Matters Not

    KA re your claim:

    You make the words

    Actually I don’t. I am but a ‘chooser’ of words. As are the vast majority of people.

    But you do go on:

    but you are not the meaning-maker?

    No KA, you are the ‘meaning maker’. It is you who gives ‘meaning’ to words. Look at the different meanings that people have given to the same word(s) over the years. Had a ‘haircut’ recently? Nothing to do with scissors? More to do with investments?

    And yes it’s a difficult concept to grasp.

    Here’s a few examples, that may or may not, clarify the very simple and very basic point.

    20 words that once meant something very different

  94. Rober G. Shaw

    Ms. Lee,
    A Reply In Kind.

    It’s clear you believe that you’ve addressed the questions outlined in my post.
    Unfortunately you have not. There is very little substance to your essay, and it unfortunately devolves into reactive condescension.
    I am grading it an F.
    You have till Monday morning 9am to submit a re-write, if you wish to continue in this course outline.
    Below I have included an cursory breakdown of the most troubling aspects of your piece.
    I suggest you pay particular attention to these suggestions in your new submission.

    1. “The reason I included the loud one was so I could refer to specific passages, not because I thought the loud one hadn’t read today’s text.”

    The is no logical connect between the ‘loud one’ and your stated reason; ‘so I could refer to specific passages’.
    You’re employing a fallacy here. Please refer to the departments guidebook on fallacies. You can pick one up from my office anytime.

    2. To the question ‘“Have you seen cities that challenge your Benetton vision of ‘I like diversity’?”.
    A simple ‘no’ would have sufficed. Your rationale only confirms my initial doubts as to the kumbaya visions of multicultural harmony repeated so often on these pages.

    3. To the question, ‘Have you felt fear walking the path……?”.
    Your response was, again, inadequate. You tried an obvious distraction that only served to complicate the issue further. By that I mean: this question isn’t about our treatment of refugee, foreigners, detainees; this question is about your experience at the complex and aggravated frontier of cultures. I ask about your experience so as to determine the basis for your positive or redemptive vision of multiculturalism.
    That is the subject here. Should you choose to gravitate to our treatment of refugees by all means do so AFTER you have addressed that initial subject.

    4. To my statement, ‘It has no real and lived semblance to…..” you responded in a decidedly pompous fashion, studiously avoiding the, what by now is the clear fact, of my greater ‘experience’ in these matters.
    One is generally not ‘limited’ by greater experience; one is generally enriched.
    This question goes to very heart of his conversation: the attempt to determine the real, lived experience behind the position you’re taking. If there is none to speak of then simply acknowledge that fact openly and honestly and let the conversation continue.
    Also, and equally important, the statement ‘we are very lucky here in Australia’ is NOT meant to be condescending in any way.
    And this is the cardinal point of this conversation: I say it to posit my experience.
    I say it to present a counter to those who view the Australian multiculturalism experience as somehow reflected in the, say, European experience.
    That view, I would argue till hoarse, is erroneous.

    5. Regarding Trump. I meant the win/win in a general political sense, not necessarily a legal one (though i still believe he will win a Supreme court ruling). It would be very difficult to see how, and perhaps you could offer counters or suggestions, Trump won’t be able to use the ‘goddmanit people, I tried, I really tried’ defense to the electorate. Forget about the court decisions, his appeal will go directly to the citizens – ‘look guys, I tried to protect you, but once again the soft Democrats, the elites, and the corrupt courts and legislative bodies, have conspired to again threaten our very way of life and put you and your children in harms way’.
    I can almost hear hear it now. Can’t you?

    6. To the final, ” I cut your abuse to make you…..”.
    Whether you believe I’m a ‘dickhead’ or not, it does not address the question put to you. Once again you resort to distraction and evasion as argumentative techniques. They are not Ms. Lee.
    As was clearly outlined in my post, your power and prerogative to cull according to your conscience and bias are not in question. That much has already been established on this blog. What is at question is this:
    You didn’t have the intellectual and moral courage to acknowledge it the interests of honesty and transparency.

    In conclusion: there are several key areas here that need redress. Whilst I’m reluctant to fail you outright, your contributions otherwise of a fair standard, I will certainly do so if you continue this MANNER of argumentation.
    This is 3rd year Ms. Lee and the expectations are substantial. Any post grad work you’re thinking of undertaking depend on the quality of your coursework now.

    I will be in my office till 2 today and can be reached by email should you have any questions. And no, there’s no need to thank me.
    Yet.

    (That was fun, should we do it again?)

    ……

    Kate, 10.04:
    We see this issue and the manner of discussion here quite differently. I see myself as trying to force open these complex subjects and interrogate the assumptions that underpin them.
    I don’t view fallacy or platitude as even worth the time to type the words, such is my contempt for their workings.
    I don’t see, and am yet to read, how you are part of any solution.
    Perhaps you could explain to me how, for example, Miriam’s statement, which is the reason why we’re all still here now, that ‘ISIS is like Conservative politicians’ is part of a solution, to anything, anywhere, anytime.

    Agian, it seems as though we view the role of forums like this in quite different terms – i feel as though many here see it as a kind of Facebook chat club, to stand together and bash the opposition in a thoughtless, uncritical and back slapping manner.
    I on the other hand view the more interrogative comments by several posters to be much more interesting, constructive, and challenging. That hardly makes me “part of the problem”.

    Something for everyone I suppose.

    To your 10.11.
    Yes, i’ve read your bio, which makes it all the more surprising that you don’t acknowledge and try to address in the context of this conversation the immense challenges to the confected bromides of the kumbaya set.

    By the way, you’ve misunderstood the initial post by Matters Not.
    It’s unfortunately understandable. This medium is extremely unforgiving with the use of figures of speech.

  95. Robert G. Shaw

    Moderation?!?
    Give me a break!

    It’s a conversation!

  96. Roswell

    Robert Shaw, as far as I’m aware you are not in moderation. Your comment was caught in moderation because you might have been using a different email address (or typed in the wrong one) or were using a different ISP. If it was neither of those then it must have been a glitch.

  97. Miriam English

    Robert Shaw, wow! When your posts aren’t trimmed you really do look more like a dickhead. Kaye was right.

  98. Miriam English

    Roswell, it was because he misspelled his own name February 11, 2017 at 7:26 am.

  99. Kaye Lee

    I have an uneasy feeling this conversation is morphing into role play.

    PS I didn’t read that last diatribe. Had it been on topic I may have taken the time but after a cursory glance it appeared to be just your usual rant where you tell me all about myself. If I missed any pearls of wisdom you might like to present them in a more user friendly form, like one that holds my interest past the first line.

  100. Miriam English

    Don’t worry Kaye, I skipped through it (couldn’t be bothered reading it all either). You didn’t miss anything. The bits I read were all, “I’m right and everyone else is wrong.” The usual.

    I won’t bother wasting my time with his at all in future.

  101. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Miriam. I’m sorry to say that I have neither the leisure nor the energy to be bothered with this thread any longer. Both Matters Not and Robert are here for reasons that have nothing to do with making the world a better place. Time for a little oxygen deprivation? Anyhow, I’m happy to let them have the last word here. Time’s a-wasting. Other, more important fish to fry.

  102. Roswell

    So he did, Miriam. Well spotted.

    I guess it’s easier to blame the moderators than bothering to spell your name correctly.

    Rather funny, actually.

  103. nurses1968

    No experience seems more common in social media practice than having one’s grammar corrected. The Grammar Bullies hide and then pounce on any typographical misstep or the your/you’re mix-up faster than you can click “submit.”

    Reasons exist for such rude behavior. Slate attempted to explain the phenomenon, but if your gut instincts have told you some element of superiority is involved, your gut was right. Polite, secure people do not correct other people’s grammar. If they have the meaning of what one is saying in conversation, most listeners will overlook slight errors. Unfortunately, we don’t always talk with “most listeners.” Sometimes, in person, online, and against our better judgment, we talk with snooty, self-appointed, and insufferable grammar police.
    When we are angry or stressed, a bonding hormone called oxytocin is released, urging us to form social connections with other humans so as to better our chances for surviving the cause of the stress. A Grammar Bully is feeling insecure in some way, and the insecurity is driving her to gather up friends. Many observers may think the Grammar Bully is about belittling others, but really, the Grammar Bully is just looking to find other Grammar Bullies because she is feeling angry and/or stressed.

    Anger can be subconscious and many times it is. We are discouraged from expressing anger when out and about in polite society, so we suppress it. Unfortunately, anger is one of those emotions that bubbles up to the surface. Grammar-correcting behavior is one of suppressed anger’s outlets.

    So, now that we understand that insecurity and resentment are forms of anger that are being suppressed in the Grammar Bully, we can now learn how to behave in the event that we happen upon one of these lovely people.

    What to do when someone corrects your grammar

  104. Roswell

    Nurses, I really don’t care if Robert Shaw spelt his name wrong. The system didn’t recognise him, that’s all. There was no human intervention.

  105. Roswell

    I’m now expection a ‘please explain’. I won’t be bothering though.

  106. Florence nee Fedup

    Have we another Ian replica?

  107. LOVO

    IQ’s way above Iain’s, Flo.
    I have heard that our old ‘mate’ Iain H. is on his way out and very sick. In this instance I feel sorry for his family, though not particularly sorry for him.

  108. Robert G. Shaw

    “present them in a more user friendly form, like one that holds my interest past the first line.”

    You mean this first line, “Let me too get out my red pen”?

    Priceless irony.
    Precious hypocrisy.
    🙂

    The simple point was to determine the underpinnings of your “multiculturalism is wonderful” assertion.
    You have addressed none of the counters presented, therefore betrayed your own words and convictions. Miriam, Kate, and now Florence, have offered no sensible, credible, or mature rebuttal of the points raised and have also now forfeited their right to have their opinions taken seriously.
    Fearful of engagement with real issues and real experiences which may contradict your own you resort, as do the others and as is common practice here, to ad hominem.

    I don’t sabotage conversation here, you do.

    Let me add one more thing: perhaps you are too accustomed to the near sycophantic affirmation of your every word on this blog. Remember though there are some here who aren’t so easily impressed and require, lord bless our pedantic souls, some measure of mature debate , inclusive of direct response, fallacy free, ad hominem free, counter arguments.

    ____

    To Roswell, my first long post went immediately into moderation. I saw that and tried to express my surprise in my second. I hit the enter key before all of my details were set and that’s the reason you would have seen, or rather Miriam would have seen (is she a moderator here?) the incorrect submission.

    In case that confused you: my first post, moderated. My second post not. My error post, deleted (by me).
    I hope that clarifies any “please explains “you may require and puts to bed your comical backpeddle between your 11.31 and 11.34 post.

    _________

    Now, to the question, again: who here among the “multiculturalism is tops” crowd has been witness to “multiculturalism isnt always the bee’s knees” reality?
    Anyone?

    Anyone at all?

    Hellooooooooooo?

  109. Kaye Lee

    “there are some here who aren’t so easily impressed and require, lord bless our pedantic souls, some measure of mature debate , inclusive of direct response, fallacy free, ad hominem free, counter arguments.”

    Is that what you call what you just wrote?

    “who here among the “multiculturalism is tops” crowd has been witness to “multiculturalism isnt always the bee’s knees” reality?”

    I assume you want to talk about other countries. I never understand why people insist on doing that when we are talking about Australia which is a very different place.

    Can’t you argue your own point without reference to other people? You really don’\t have to browbeat other commenters making your demands of them.. You could just….yanno….make a point once in a while.

  110. Roswell

    Robert, my ‘please explain’ quip was directed at Nurses. I credited you with enough intelligence to accept my explanation as to why your comment was caught in moderation.

    Given that you think I engaged in a ‘comical backpeddle’ encourages me not to bother giving you the courtesy if an explanation in future. I’ll just let you stew on it instead.

  111. Robert G. Shaw

    I argued many points central to your assertion, central to this discussion..
    You chose not to read them.
    I know why.
    You know why.

    Yet you still persist with this charade??

    —-

    “I never understand why….”

    Yes, you can. Becasue it punches a hole through your assertion a loaded freight train could drive through.

    At least be honest.
    If nothing else.

  112. Robert G. Shaw

    Roswell,
    I read your first explanation, and appreciated it.

    I then read this “I guess it’s easier to blame the moderators than bothering to spell your name correctly” and thought
    you up to your old tricks again.

    Who can blame me?

  113. Roswell

    Robert, you’re the last person who should be accusing others of charades. I think you know what I mean, so I’ll say no more of it.

    I’m heading out now. Don’t wait for an explanation. I’m done with them.

  114. Kaye Lee

    Is this the argument you are trying to make?

    “The wonderfully redemptive notion of people of all cultures, religions, nationalities, living together in a harmonious and kumbaya-like hippy chant where we all burn incense, small each others armpits, and enjoy each other’s culinary treats, is a figment of some teenage imagination. It has no real and lived semblance to many places I’ve seen – places at the frontier of cultures; normally mundane little cities turned front lines in this increasingly bitter and dare I say, incommensurable issue.

    As I said to Florence some time ago, yes, we are very lucky in Australia. Other countries, other cities, other communities, not so.
    I think it’s absolutely crucial to be aware of this singular and irrefutable fact about the real and direct challenges that undermine our (your) ideal vision of multicultural communities.”

    If so, then I find your self-proclaimed “greater experience” elsewhere irrelevant when discussing Australia and your seemingly irresistible need to belittle people interesting from a profiling perspective but totally disruptive and unnecessary in a debating sense.

    The only thing threatening our successful multicultural community is the fear and misinformation spread for either political gain or through ignorance or, in some cases, both. I think that is the absolutely crucial thing to address. I would hazard to say if there was low unemployment and the government built enough infrastructure, many of people’s concerns would disappear.

  115. Florence nee Fedup

    LOVO Sad to hear that. Feel sorry for family. Still pops up on other sites. Haven’t seen much from you for long time.

  116. Florence nee Fedup

    I see the world becoming completely globalised where borders or nations have little value. Over the last 7 decades I have observed this happening. Not saying there won’t be negatives in the process. After all we are talking about humans.

    Personally I believe the quicker this happens the better. Society, culture and nationality is always undergoing change, which as new technology comes on board, speeds up.

    Look at the influx into Europe and we see even those from primitive nations on the move.

  117. Deanna Jones

    Honestly, what sort of a bozo would, apparently without irony, ask women if they’ve ever been afraid to walk home?

  118. Kaye Lee

    Good point Deanna

  119. Robert G. Shaw

    That truly does sound awful Deanna.
    Who the hell wrote that???

    Ahh Kaye, playing to the cheap seats.
    And not for the first time.
    Was it a ‘good point’?
    Really?
    Go on, humour me. Have another look at the ‘good point’.
    Was it accurate??

    Or don’t such things matter, anymore?

    I suppose there was little left for you to do.

    🙂

  120. Kaye Lee

    Robert, I truly worry for you. You seem to get very cross if people agree with anyone but you.

    I note you ignored my attempt to address what I thought your argument was. So much for your impassioned plea for “engagement with real issues”

  121. nurses1968

    RoswellFebruary 11, 2017 at 11:46 am

    “I’m now expection a ‘please explain’”
    and there are shots from the cheap seats because Robert G. Shaw left a “t” off his name,go figure 😀
    I’m not sure what you are “expection” ing?

  122. Robert G. Shaw

    I ignored it.
    Yes.
    You don’t do debate and conversation.

    You do the cheap seats.

  123. Kaye Lee

    Pretentious? Moi?

    Robert, your self-conferred superiority status is greatly exaggerated. You’re not here to debate. You are here to pontificate and to belittle. Think I will join those who no longer waste their time feeding your ego. As Rossleigh so often reminds me, chips and seagulls.

  124. Miriam English

    nurses1968, just to explain, I wasn’t having a cheap shot at Robert for leaving the ‘t’ off his name, I was honestly just explaining to Roswell why the comment got caught up in the filter.

    I wouldn’t have a shot at Robert over spelling. In other sites I’ve tried to stop people picking at spelling as I have great sympathy for those who find it difficult. And anybody can make a typo.

    In any case, I don’t read Robert’s histrionic comments anymore — total waste of time.

  125. Kyran

    Wow, hasn’t this been a fun thread. Ms nee Fedup, 7.10pm on 8/2 and 4.53pm today, could not agree more.

    Imagine there’s no heaven
    It’s easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people living for today
    Imagine there’s no countries
    It isn’t hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people living life in peace, you
    You may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one
    I hope some day you’ll join us
    And the world will be as one
    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people sharing all the world,

    As for the likes of corgi and georgy, and their hate fest’s, hate will only ever breed hate.
    Just out of curiosity, jimhaz. You didn’t respond to what I considered reasonable questions at 5.11pm on 7/2. From your post at 4.06pm on 9/2;
    “The one significant thing you did not mention is the sending of money back home – however any money sent home is straight out loss to Australia.”
    Were you referring to the immigrant bastards sending ill gotten money back to their family and friends who needed it? Or those corporate bastards who send somewhat larger amounts whilst remaining impervious to any scrutiny?
    Thank you, AIMN, and commenters. Take care

  126. Matters Not

    Seems to me that being overtly ethnocentric is the new black. Trump, Bernardi, Hanson and Dutton (to cite just four examples) might be considered ‘ignorant’ but it’s clear they (and others) are just tapping into and inflaming fears (of difference) already there – just bubbling below the surface waiting to be exploited.

    Take Hanson as a specific example. She first came to prominence 30 years ago by demonising on racial grounds. (Aborigines were the ‘big’ problem.) She then switched her attack to those of different ethnic origin. (Asians were ‘swamping’ the suburbs.) Now she is focussed on religious difference. (Muslims are terrorists and therefore signal the end of civilisation as we know it.)

    She always had (and still has) legitimate points to make. And, politically, they resonate rather well. There’s no escaping that. After all, any sustainable ideological view must have a grain of truth within. And hers does.

    While I find her ‘world view’ abhorrent (plus a whole host of other pejorative descriptors I could add), I am at a loss to provide an antidote. Logic will not win the day. It’s ‘belief’ that reigns supreme.

    Any ideas?

  127. Miriam English

    Matters Not, there does seem to be something ugly just under the surface of humanity. It only seems to take the likes of Hanson, or Christensen, or Bernardi to scratch at it.

    How do we fight it? I’m stumped too. Shaming people such as Hanson and the others doesn’t seem to work. They don’t seem to feel shame.

    I’m not even sure we can shame the people who give them a platform — the “news” media, talk shows, and so on.

    One technique that has worked really well with that gutter talk show asshole Rush Limbaugh in USA is a massive campaign to contact advertisers to tell them that people are boycotting their products because of their connection with Limbaugh. It’s caused him to be dropped by pretty-much all the stations now. Damn good thing. He is such a horrid, bigoted prick.

    If these racists don’t get a platform then ordinary racists seem to remain reasonably okay, or at least they can be made to feel embarrassed when they’re rude to people. But give the nasty racist role models a platform to spout their hatred and it seems to embolden the ordinary racists and they become much worse and dangerous. We always seem to see an increase in hate crimes when these prominent racists vomit their views in public.

    Now that we have a prime minister and mainstream media who aggravate the problem I expect things will get worse until the next election, when hopefully the LNP are kicked out. What a pity we don’t have more prominent people speaking up to shame the racists.

    I so wish we could get rid of Murdoch. If Labor get in the very first thing they should do is destroy Murdoch’s hold on the media. If they don’t then their chances of ever getting in power again diminish yearly.

  128. jimhaz

    @Kryan,

    [Just out of curiosity, jimhaz. You didn’t respond to what I considered reasonable questions at 5.11pm on 7/2]

    I probably didn’t think you were saying enough that had enough significance to me. I think I did start a reply at the time, but didn’t go back to it. I often don’t reply to posts – it would just take too much time, as I tend to shift into rant mode.

    [25.3% of the Australian population identify as Catholic (2011 census). Of them, only about 1/3rd were ‘practicing’. Their rules prescribe various practices that are not acceptable to the wider Australian public. Ironically, their family planning ‘rules’ are the most repugnant to most Australians. They have not yet changed Australian law to disallow a woman her own choice when it comes to her own body.]

    I’m not sure what you are getting at. As far as I know anyone who wants an abortion can get one, albeit there are restrictions state to state thought they my need to lie about. If they couldn’t there would be more complaints in the news. Muslim rules don’t seem to be that different. Quite a high percentage of Christians of breeding age don’t take too much notice of these types of church rule.

    I really don’t know much about it, I’m too old for it to affect me and I don’t have kids.

    They would of cause change the law to place even harder restrictions if they had the numbers, which was the point I was making. Sometimes it is also a matter of who asks the loudest and most consistently and religious groups enable this.

    [The same census had the Muslim population of Australia at a bit over 2%. In your wildest dreams, how is Sharia law more likely than Canon law?]

    I didn’t say it was likely, it isn’t at all, however over the long term as numbers increase it might become more likely to be accepted in limited forms. It depends if the religion moderates over time, as to whether that makes much difference. I will always reject outright any religion that does not let people leave it relatively freely and without high levels of duress. I’m completely against any religious based laws being allowed to be made into public law, other than fairness in terms of religious holidays.

    [With respect, your reference to their much higher breeding statistics beggars belief. Ireland has a population that has fluctuated between 3.5 and 5 million people. There are more than 17 million people world wide who identify as 1st or 2nd generation Irish. More than 1/4 of the worlds population identify as having some Irish hereditary.]

    You can’t compare the Irish emigration to the current Islamic one. There are just too many things that are not the same and it is in period of widespread conflict for them. The Irish were similar enough to fit in, though of course there was a lot of strife in the early days, they were not treated well.

  129. jimhaz

    continued..

    [And you’re worried about Muslim breeders?]

    Well the religion is the fastest grower one worldwide mainly due to a higher childbirth ratio. I also see the religion as going through an imperialistic stage, which is why it borders are indeed bloody.

    One also has to consider the degree of adherence to the faith, and how under threat that faith is within western societies, particularly for those who immigrated in this era of terrorism. It is just not a one on one comparison.

    Still, it’s more that I don’t wish the additive effect on the percentage of religious based conservatives. I’m sick and tired of religious stupidity and its desire to dominate others. Surely only a twit would want that. I want the power of religion to affect policies to decrease, not increase. Look at what state the US is in due to bible belt ignorance and stupidity.

    What I want is for muslims here to gradually adopt the freer prevailing western attitudes and to be more open to abandoning the out-datedness of certain religious practices. Whenever there is new supply of people who have only lived in a Muslim society, it delays this process, and reinforces fundamentalism.

    [With regard to the link between the motives of the homicidal f’wit in Niece and the homicidal f’wit in Melbourne, the only one that I can see is that they were homicidal f’wits. Their motivation, to me, is a side show. A distraction. Ms Lee’s article points that out pretty well.]

    Well I see it just a little differently, although I’ve no interest in justifying whatever the pollies may have said.

    There are a couple of things in common, though most is not. I’m coming from the perspective of what was going through their brains at the time – what excuses they might have used to justify murdering others, that made them think it was OK. It takes a lot of egotistical self-delusion to do that.

    Hard to know with the Melbourne madman as there was much drug use, I think including Ice, which appears to sometimes create extreme forms of violence.

    He had been making recent religious (Christian) comments online – and in a twisted mind it can become the thing that excuses any action. The terrorism link comes with the way we learn, a lot of it is copycat, even where purely subconsciously. Ideas form from many different memory sources – few ideas are actually ones own. He may have been repeating a version of murder-suicide he’d recently seen, in a manic state, during a decade or more of mainly muslim terrorism.

  130. Deanna Jones

    Robert February 10, 2017 at 9:31 pm

    “Have you felt fear walking the path home,[?]”

  131. Robert G. Shaw

    Deanna, I’ll leave it to ‘good point’ Kaye to correct your grossly abbreviated quotation.

    (She didn’t mean it Deanna. She read and understood the full quote. She only agreed with you because she saw you as a one of her seagulls and couldn’t resist, just could not resist, the urge to toss a chip and hope that in the predictable squawking no one would notice your incredibly mischievous misrepresentation. Not to worry though, there’s no one about. The moment will pass, and we’ll all move on to another ad hominem soon enough).

  132. Kyran

    Thank you, jimhaz, for your response.
    “What I want is for muslims here to gradually adopt the freer prevailing western attitudes and to be more open to abandoning the out-datedness of certain religious practices.”
    Isn’t that the point of the article? By any definition, they are doing what all migrant communities do, adapt to their new circumstance. The article carefully points out that ‘we’ make ‘their’ assimilation more difficult by vilifying ‘them’.
    “You can’t compare the Irish emigration to the current Islamic one.”
    I can, most certainly, compare the Irish emigration, borne of the potato famine, with the emigration of Muslim’s from a war zone. Both were escaping a dire situation. It’s just that one group is more acceptable than the other.
    The potato famine was in the 1800’s. The figures I cited were far more current. The causes of emigration are many and varied. Not one of us will ever have a say in that.
    The way we accept immigrants, whatever their means of arrival, or background, is more defining of us than it will ever be of them.
    Apparently, we have another ‘closing the gap report’. This is when we immigrants get to tell our First People that they should have been far more wary of immigrants. The immigrants that did the damage were white.
    Apologies, jimhaz. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. Take care

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