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Another trophy for Scott and another slap in the face for Palestine

In accepting the Jerusalem Prize from the Zionist Federation of Australia, the Zionist Council of NSW and the World Zionist Organisation on Thursday night, Scott Morrison said “absolutely shameful” acts of anti-Semitism had “no place” in Australia, but they were still occurring and could not be ignored.

“We can’t pretend it isn’t happening here – it is,” he said. “It’s like the country just wants to eject it out of its system, yet it persists. That’s why we must remain so vigilant about these things – we can’t be casual about these things. We can’t overlook it or just pretend.”

This from the man who suggested exploiting community concerns about Muslims as a campaign strategy.

This from the man who supports Peter Dutton when he attacks African and Lebanese migrants or when he wants to prioritise “white” South African farmers or Syrian “Christians” for humanitarian visas.

The former Attorney-General, George Brandis, infamously proclaimed our right to be bigots in the government’s push to remove the words “offend, insult or humiliate” from section 18C of the racial discrimination act.

Pre-empting Donald Trump, the Abbott government broke with the international community over Israeli occupation of disputed territory.

In November 2013, the Abbott government quietly registered Australia’s opposition to a United Nations resolution ordering an end to ”all Israeli settlement activities in all of the occupied territories”.

Julie Bishop subsequently questioned in an interview with an Israeli newspaper whether the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank were illegal.

George Brandis told the Senate that ”The description of East Jerusalem as ‘Occupied East Jerusalem’ is a term freighted with perjorative implications, which is neither appropriate nor useful.”

We, along with the US, were the only two countries on the UN Security Council to vote No to a proposal demanding Israel end the occupation of Palestinian territories within two years.

Then we had Morrison’s by-election brain fart to say we were moving our Embassy to Jerusalem – an announcement that took our own diplomats and security forces by surprise and caused a flurry of ‘please explains’ around the world.

It’s one thing to court votes domestically but aligning yourself with the Zionists at the expense of the Palestinians is hugely irresponsible.

Morrison said that the UN “has allowed anti-Semitism to seep into its deliberations – all under the language of human rights. And we are not buying that, my government is not buying that, our government is not buying that.”

The fact that Israel have illegally invaded and appropriated another country’s territory seems to escape Scott’s attention, as has the corruption of its leader.

But hey, anything for a trophy eh, Scott.

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  1. Phil Pryor

    The repulsive P M for this nation , a disgrace to decency and civilised attitudes, is a good friend of all forms of theft, occupation, intrusion, murder and acquisition, he himself being an executive murdere, knowingly following actions and issuing orders that lead to death and thieving. It is not antsemitic to challenge the rottenness of Israel, for I am onme of many who has fought it over a long career in education, But individuals, of the Netanyahu type use any cover, screen, camouflage, to behave badly as rotten humans. Religious superstition is the good friend of perverts, killers, robbers, liars and eveything bad in behaviour. The Palestinians are today descendents of those denied every political right, from Roman days, through time, the Ottomans and the British Mandate period, itself a filthy crime against humanity, for which somene should have been hanged or shot. Nothing will erase the criminality of British work in promoting the Sykes Picot determinations, the Balfour declaration and subsequent actions to chain, reduce, enslave, crush the Palestinian people, who did and still do deserve full freedom including rights of territory. All the zionist invaders were outsiders, foreigners, (except perhaps one) who came to steal land for ancient superstition. The USA and UK, being used to a history of their own successful murdering, thieving, occupying, formulated policies to favour more crime, which should never have been tolerated in modern times. The holocaust is rightly condemned, yet those who mourn will steal and kill on the other hand. For a nobody and turd like Morrison to pomp and pose on the fringe of this is a dogshit mimicry of USA bent thinking, for Harry Truman counted the money, calculated the benefits and turned away from Justice for the Palestinians to favouring the zionists, all for needy USA jewish donations. Racist rotten ratbags, the Morrison mould, are used to belittling “lesser” people. He is a miniature poo stain himself.

  2. RomeoCharlie29

    I think Morrison, like many in the Israeli lobby, confuses criticism of Israeli policies on Palestine with anti-semitism. There probably is real but misguided anti-semitism in Australia but there is absolutely valid criticism of Israel’s illegal occupation and expansion of settlements. It is to Australia’s eternal shame that our, predominantly, LNP governments continue to vote against recognising a Palestinian occupation and oppression. But then what else can we expect from a government which operates its own offshore gulags? Perhaps the forthcoming corruption trials of the criminal Netanyahu will open Scummo’s eyes.

  3. John OCallaghan

    Scott Morrison and his party…. Psychos For Christ……..

  4. Kaye Lee

    We certainly have racism/bigotry in this country but for Scott Morrison to pretend his party hasn’t fuelled and exploited it makes my blood boil. They enable it. They encourage it. They have lifted the rock and let the slugs parade around in broad daylight. George Christensen speaks at white supremacist rallies and tried, unsuccessfully, to start an anti-Islam website.

    Starting with Tampa, they have unleashed the hounds with their dog whistling for political purposes and now don’t know how to deal with what they have created. Pauline Hanson’s first iteration in politics was short-lived because she was so abominably racist (and stupid)….today she is a kingmaker.

    The Northern Territory intervention, cashless welfare card imposed by postcode, the idea that ATSI people get special privileges. Scott says they just want to be treated like everyone else. Yes well perhaps if they hadn’t had their land stolen and their wages stolen and their children stolen and their pride stolen and their resources stolen then maybe they could start on a level playing field.

    This country is going backwards in so many ways.

  5. wam

    criticise a country whose military are experts in terror, whose religious leaders airbrush women out of international photos before printing in the newspaper and whose politicians are suspected of corruption and you are accused of denying the holocaust. Pointing out that burqas, niqabs, chadors and hijabs are cultural dress and you are muslim hater suggest that Aborigines deserve a proper noun and to be treated as individuals and you are a bleeding heart
    the country is certainly falling backwards, kaye
    the young need to see scummo’s god out in the open

  6. Kaye Lee


    I struggle with the various veils women may choose to wear as well. I have read a lot from women who make that choice. I do not necessarily agree with them but I will support their right to choose provided it IS their choice rather than something imposed on them by the patriarchy be it governmental, religious or familial. I cannot see subsequent generations in Australia choosing to wear a burqa. It’s too friggin hot.

    I also struggle with the choice women make to wear make-up and high heels and dye their hair.

  7. Karen Kyle

    Morrison is right when he says the UN has allowed antisemitism to seep into the UN. It is quite deliberate and a consequence of the new Arab and North African States which came into existence after the war and have seats in the UN. They are not democracies and the UN is now purely a numbers game.

    And it is antisemitic in that Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Iran to mention just the most obvious ones have the ultimate objective of destroying Israel and pushing all the Israelis into the sea or back to Europe. Can’t get much more antisemitic than that.

    Today, as far as te Left is concerned the entire question has been robbed of all history and all context and exists only as a narrow question about the human rights of Palestinian Arabs. A reframing of the argument courtesy of the Egyptian Yasser Afafat in conjuction with the KGB. All on the public record, and well understood by Western Governments which is why they continue to give qualified suopport to Israel. The issue is a particularly nasty hangover from the Cold War. It is also one of the few issues the hard line Left has in these post Soviet days. The PLO is the only Liberation organisation left and it like all the others has failed it’s objective.

    Its about time this attitude was discarded so that peace between Palestinian.Arabs and Israelis might be a possibility. But there will be no possibility while Arabs scream “death to Israel, death to the United States”.and mean it.

    Thanks to the intransigence of the Palestinian leadership and their fanatical propensity for murder I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Likud government in Israel does not stop until they have reclaimed all of what was ancient Israel including the Jordan Valley. I hope that doesn’t happen but if it does the Palestinians will have only themselves to blame. They had plenty of chances for a state of their own. They always refuse.

  8. Meyer Mussry

    The whole tone of your article tells me that your media is anything but independent, but has been captured by the left narrative. Your logic is flawed and you flaunt opinion as if it is the only truth there can be.

    Let’s get specific:
    1) “Pre-empting Donald Trump, the Abbott government broke with the international community over Israeli occupation of disputed territory.” and “In November 2013, the Abbott government quietly registered Australia’s opposition to a United Nations resolution ordering an end to ”all Israeli settlement activities in all of the occupied territories”.

    There is a clear and strong Israeli claim to the lands of Judea and Samaria. The British Mandate for Palestine allocated all of Israel including present day Jordan, to the Jews for their homeland. Subsequently, 70% of this was hived off to create a state for the Arabs of the region. This state is Jordan. Notwithstanding this, the UN’s partition plan further divided the remaining land into a Jewish state and an Arab state. While the Jews accepted this, it was rejected by all the Arab countries and this last division has no legal basis as a result of that rejection.

    After the war of independence, Jordan controlled Judea and Samaria, which some call the West Bank. They ethnically cleansed Jews from the area, and the Arabs were made Jordanian citizens, as they were of the same stock as the majority of Jordan’s population. All the time until Israel won the land in a defensive war in 1967 (which on its own gives legal sanction to annexing the land), there was no talk of a Palestinian identity or state. This only emerged subsequently as a tool to win over world opinion. Jordan at this point relinquished all rights to the land.

    So why on earth would Israel be required to stop activity in lands that are hers? Australia has a record to be proud of, in that it has stood for truth in the face of massive cowardice and self interest displayed by Western countries in the UN, who have all subjected truth to oil and money. The Australian voting record makes me proud.

    2) “We, along with the US, were the only two countries on the UN Security Council to vote No to a proposal demanding Israel end the occupation of Palestinian territories within two years.” You seem to be suggesting here that because others are behaving unethically, we should do the same. This reminds me of graffiti I saw at Uni many years ago: ” Eat s**t. 1,000,000,000,000,000 flies can’t be wrong.”

    Your analysis is biased and flawed, and your ethics are seriously suspect.

    Please make a stand for truth and ethics, as that is what will gain your reporting respect and possibly readership. if not, then change your name. Independent does not cut it in the face of this piece.

  9. Kaye Lee

    Wow Karen. You completely ignore Israel’s invasion and illegal settlement of territories that are not theirs, whilst suggesting that rock-throwing Palestinians are some sort of threat to the Israeli missiles.

    We can go back in history to find all sides are to blame. How about we look forward to people sticking to the rules of the borders that were drawn up before the Israeli invasion.

  10. Karen Kyle

    Meyer Mussrey……..Bravo.

  11. Kaye Lee

    Meyer Mussry,

    The definition of independent is “free from outside control; not subject to another’s authority.”

    No-one tells me what to write and I do not represent anyone’s opinion except my own. I have not been ‘captured’ by anyone.

    My aim is to start a discussion from which we all learn. Your view of history suggests your opinion is far from independent so please leave your lectures out and just state your case and expect to be fact-checked.

  12. Aortic

    Netan is not the only yahoo in the picture here. The chosen people indeed and any semblance of sympathy for the oppressed and subjugated people’s in illegally occupied territory is somehow immediately anti Semitic. They have had a truly unfortunate unwarranted past, but encroaching further and further into territory that does not belong to you surely warrants some reaction. The richest Israelis, particularly in the United States will forever decry any two State Solution which is surely the most sensible and peaceable way through the situation.

  13. New England Cocky

    @Meyer Mussry: Why is it that Zionists are always the victims, never the perpetrators? To my pro-Jewish opinion, the Zionists benefitted from the 1916 war finance deal struck by Rothschild with a needy Balfour when funding the inept English WWI military campaign that was stuck in the mud of the Western Front. The displacement of Palestinian people from their lands and homes bears no resemblance to “justice”, rather it looks very similar to the same tactics used by in Austria and Germany between 1933 -1945.

    But then, Biblical archeological studies suggest that a 70 year contested tenure of a plot of land before eviction into slavery about 3,000 years ago is hardly a valid basis for a present day claim of sovereignty over that same land, to the detriment of the current owners.

  14. Kerri

    Israel serves i’ts own good by perpetually playing the holocaust card and worldwide politicians fail to recognise that racism effects many more nations than just the one screaming anti-semitism.
    A balanced world view recognises the bad in international players as well as the sorrow.
    Our mantra for Anzac is “lest we forget”.
    Remember so we do not repeat the atrocities of the past.
    Israel and especially Netanyahu seem to have forgotten that their historical suffering should act as a lesson for preventing future and present atrocities world wide.
    Not just in their own favour.

  15. Kaye Lee

    “The British Mandate for Palestine allocated all of Israel including present day Jordan, to the Jews for their homeland. ”

    No it didn’t.

    The White Paper, issued in 1939, stated that Palestine should be a bi-national state, inhabited by both Arabs and Jews. Jewish immigration would be limited for five years, and any immigration required Arab consent. In addition, it called for restrictions on land purchases by Jews. British authorities set a limit on Jewish immigration to Palestine, but Hitler’s rise to power increased the number of people looking for refuge from Nazi Germany. Yet their options were limited due to increasing restrictions and closed borders. Zionist organizations dealt with the situation by organizing illegal immigration to Palestine, which continued until British rule ended.

    The negative publicity caused by the deteriorating situation in Palestine and the violence erupting on both sides made the mandate increasingly unpopular in Britain and was instrumental in the government’s announcement of its intention to terminate the mandate and return the Palestine question to the United Nations (UN). After the UN General Assembly adopted the resolution to partition Palestine on 29 November 1947, Britain announced the termination of its Mandate for Palestine, which became effective on 15 May 1948. At midnight on 14 May 1948, the State of Israel declared its independence.

    In the 1967 war, Israel took the vast area of the Sinai, took the West bank and the Golan heights.

  16. LambsFry Simplex.

    Even the ( London) Guardian lies about these things. The Lobby is as powerful as it dishonest.

  17. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee…….invasion and illegal settlements? Well international opinion is with you athough it probably needs to be settled in an International Court. As for the rock throwing……have you forgotten all the suicide bombings, the blown up buses, the assassinations in supermarkets and shopping centres, the knifings, the car rammings, the shootings the kidnaps and murders,the storing of munitions in schools and hospitals in Gaza, the aircraft hijackings, the terror tunnels the setting of Israeli agricultural land on fire and the stealing of aid to fund weapons. Did you forget that?

    And the above writer is correct. Israel was originally meant to have a large part of what is now known as Jordan. And area C which is where the settlement are built is allowable under the Oslo Treaty if I remember rightly. I am not up on International Law, but it is a fact of law that if a country takes territory while they are defending themselves because they have been attacked and invaded the defensive country is under no obligation to hand the territory back.

    You see what the Palestiian Arabs always stipulate in their negotiations is no Jews. Not even oneJew on land they consider belongs to them And yet twenty percent of the Israeli population is Arab Settlements on the West Bank evens the score somewhat. Oh, and by the way, despite the fact that twenty per cent of the Israeli population is Arab fifty per cent of the student population in Israeli Universities is Arab..Arabs in Israel seem to be doing just fine.It doesn’t stop some of them plotting murder though.

  18. Kaye Lee

    No Karen I have not forgotten the tragedy in the Middle East. I have not forgotten how we in the West profit from arms sales to the area either.

    As for “Israel was originally meant to have a large part of what is now known as Jordan”, I disagree.

    During World War I a number of plans appeared regarding the borders envisioned for the Middle East once the Ottoman Empire was defeated. These ranged from an Arab kingdom in almost the whole of the Middle East to a variety of plans dividing the region between Great Britain, France, and the Russian Empire, the most famous of which was the Sykes-Picot agreement (1916). After the region was conquered by the British army in 1918, Great Britain and France reached an agreement on dividing the Middle East, where France took Syria and Britain took what become Palestine, Transjordan and Iraq. In 1920 Britain was assigned a mandate for Palestine and Transjordan, approved by the League of Nations in 1922, which included a specific task of preparing a Jewish national home in Palestine (in accordance with the Balfour declaration). The border between Palestine under the British control and Syria under the French control was negotiated by the two powers and concluded in 1923, establishing the northern border of Palestine.

    The eastern border of Palestine was determined the same year. Transjordan was separated from Palestine, established within the mandate as an autonomous area under the Emir Abdullah

    The Balfour Declaration said “nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.” Would it be politically incorrect of me to say Asif?

  19. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee…..yep it was. A Hashemite Kingdom was a must for religious reasons. It was meat to be Syria, but the Hashemite King made a mess of it and got kicked out. That left Palestine which was divided and half given to Jordan. When Palestinian Arabs continued to object to the notion of Israel and the refugee ship the Exodus was turned away in front of a UN delegation the area determined to be for Israel was divided into two tiny countries by the UN……partition. Israel accepted the deal. The Palestinians didn’t and never have.

    Syria started the Six Day War, in fact cross border war had been going on for twenty years and then the Egyptians under Nasser hastened to get involved to stop Syria assuming a position of Arab leadership which Nasser saw as his right. Sykes Picot had nothing to do with it, just a good Left story. The Balfour Declaration is a diplomatic document meant to cover the backsides of the Brits. It had nothing to do with the reality on the ground.

  20. Karen Kyle

    Sykes Picot is a favourite bit of Left propaganda. Sykes Picot was about spheres of Influece not borders. However it is the favourite myth of such excruciating liars as Robert Fisk of the Independent who was caught falsifying stories re the ME. Cost his paper plenty and cost his already delining reputation more.

  21. Karen Kyle

    Every statemet or comment on this article with the exception of Kaye Lee and Myer Mussrey is antisemitic. I suggest you look up the international definition of antisemitism and learn it.

  22. Andy56

    the palestinian issue wont go away till there is some kind of just resolution for the palestinians. For others to crow over zionism or jewish persecution, if it looks like a cat, walks like a cat, smells like a cat, its a cat. The israeli government has done more harm to its moral idenity than any of us from the outside have ever imagined. Israel has as much claim over the lands they seized as i have, SFA. You can mount what ever arguement you want from ” the arabs want to kill us all” to righteous biblical claims. It doesnt escape the facts that trillions of dollars have been spent trying to defend the indefensible when compromise was available early in the piece. Its worked out well, no?

  23. Karen Kyle

    Compromise was available early in the piece. One party refused to compromise. No?

  24. Michael Taylor

    Meyer Mussry, if we were not independent I’m damn sure our moderator wouldn’t have allowed your comment to be published.

  25. Michael Taylor

    Meyer Mussrey……..Bravo.

    Karen Kyle, you really are pathetic.

  26. Kaye Lee

    Michael, it’s ok. I am happy to listen to their arguments but not their criticism of this site or of me as a person. It really pisses me off when people comment here, or worse still write articles here, and then slag off the site that gives them a voice and that you pay for.

    No-one has the answer to the Middle East. Some people are more interested in dragging over live coals forever. Personally, I would like to deal with the present day. Causes are important of course to help us understand, pretending any side is right or wrong is bullshit. The way forward must be to consider people, not grievances.

  27. Michael Taylor

    Just don’t tell them that we’re funded by George Soros and the ALP. 😉

  28. Michael Taylor

    I admit that Karen Kyle’s bravo of a person who slagged the site and the author really, really, really pissed me off.

  29. Kaye Lee


    I don’t care about “favourites”. I am not part of any political faction. I certainly think social justice is important and think we should all fulfill our part of the social contract without having to be punished into doing it.

    Does it ever give you pause that it was Britain and France deciding the fate/borders/ownership/political and social structure of the Middle East?

    Could that possibly have contributed to the problem?

  30. New England Cocky

    @Karen Kyle: I object to your unmitigated unreasoned pro-Zionist attack on one of our leading authors renown for their accurate research, reasoned argument and objectivity. I am reminded of the pro-Zionist attempts to sack academics at Sydney University because they held opinions different from the pro-Zionists.

    Perhaps the optimum solution would be for you to emigrate to Israel and live the Zionist dream having Palestinian servants who are kept economically depressed so that they will be more amenable to the pay and conditions offered by the invading Zionist “settlers”. Indeed, your attitude reminds me too easily of the English invasion of Australia and the genocidal abuse of Aboriginal Australians.

    Alternatively you might read some history from various sources other than Israel to get a balanced view of the suppression of Palestine for the benefit of the English WWI war effort, at a time when England was the declining world power.

    PS Morriscum is ALWAYS RIGHT …..NEVER CORRECT …..

  31. Rossleigh

    Like I always say, if you feed the seagulls, they just hang around and squawk till you throw another one.

  32. Roswell

    Bugger. Now I feel like some hot chips.

  33. Michael Taylor

    So do I.

    Rossleigh, you’ve got two seagulls to feed. 😎

  34. Karen Kyle

    I don’t think it maters much re Britian and France and the end of Colonialism in the ME. The old Ottoman Empire was gone and the Europeans were going. You seem to forget the point of the Mandate was to prepare the ME for self determination. They were not countries, some of them had not been self governing countries for centuries. They needed to be prepared and this was a harder job than most people realised. The Caliphate meant that they were largely administered rather than ruled and the Empire was in decline and poverty stricken. It was hard.

    British Colionialism didn’t make India a failed state, nor Singapore or Hong Kong. The Dutch didn’t produce a failed state in Indonesia either. In fact the British system of Government public service etc probably was of help to India. In any case the fate/borders/ politics etc were not decided by colonial powers, they were largely decided by the people of the ME themselves.by negotiation. People were asked what they wanted and then the negotiating and fighting started.It didn’t work out well in the ME. Too many failed and authoritarian states, as well as tribal warlords which the Caliphate had kept in check…..sort of for centuries. and that would probably have happened under any circumstances. I don’t know what the answer is. I just hope there is an answer.

  35. Rossleigh

    Sort of like what’s happening in Britain with all those years of religious rule by the monarchy followed by an oppressive system leading to a total inability to plan a negotiated exit from the EU.

  36. Rossleigh

    The British have demonstrated an inability for self rule.
    Who wants a chip?

  37. LambsFry Simplex.

    Why bother. She has been given the facts often enough, just take this as sheer perversity, for motives unknown.

  38. wam

    thanks kaye I agree women should be free to wear or not what they wish.
    However silly people like seven’s sam and 60 second’s lazy liz cannot see the difference between culture and religion the former is not mandatory but the latter is protected by law.
    These two high profile women are taking the man imposed culture – burqa pakistan Afghanistan, niqab, saudi, chador iran and africa and putting it with god imposed religious dress from a choice, albeit in theory when men beat, gaol and behead women who transgress,, to a mandate from god ie no choice.
    ignorant christians who put their own values on others
    No politician should be free from being asked questions on any personal belief that affects their decisions. Just as no doctor ,nurse, baker, butcher teacher or school should be alowed to discriminate on sex, age or ethnic origin.
    ps it is disturbing that women who breastfeed are being shamed because murdoch has imported the yankee designated fear of nipples as sex object for men. they even mask bum cracks on tradies. How v^@^^&@$ ridiculous when any 10 year old has porn at their fingertips and silence from

  39. Kaye Lee


    We women don’t understand ourselves. We are struggling between being viewed as equal participants in society and being pretty. I cannot tell you how many times I have argued with women who have told me I would feel much better about myself if I _____ (had my hair cut, painted on eyebrows, put some lipstick on, wore high heels….). I just don’t get it. I keep telling them doing those things is for other people, not me. I can’t see myself so, if how I look determines how I feel, then my opinion of myself is in other people’s hands.

    Few people agree with me, including my dearest girlfriends who are still bound by the need to make other people think you are physically attractive. I look forward to the day when they free themselves from that crap. It ain’t all about burqas yanno.

  40. Andy56

    Karen, you just proved my point, compromise was within reach early on. The fact you seem to think only one side was willing shows your perspective. This is one time when the victors dont get the narrative all their own way. The demonisation of palestinians shows that Israel for one aint interested in compromise, never has been. Thrusting ” reality on the ground” has been their modus operandi.

  41. Karen Kyle

    Can you give me an example of a Palestinian offer of compromise on the subject of a Palestinian State. Just one?

  42. Matters Not


    my opinion of myself is in other people’s hands

    Yep! Sure is. But that realisation itself provides an escape of sorts.

    Behavior and self esteem are dictated by a person’s predictions of how they’ll be perceived by others … When it comes to understanding ourselves, social interaction plays a more important role than many of us realize. … individuals develop their concept of self by observing how they are perceived by others,

    Has even more implications in the social media era. Better to focus on ‘ideas’ rather than people.


  43. Matters Not


    shows your perspective.

    Yes! But isn’t that what history is all about? With some perspectives judged better than others by (take your pick). Or is it about truth with a capital T? Like mathematics and logic are?

  44. Zathras

    Considering the history of Israeli illegal occupation, agression, economic sanctions and the continual theft of land I don’t think the Palestinians are the ones who need to compromise or make any concessions.

    Israel believes in the continuing “Peace Process” but does not want the “peace” because as long as the “Process” continues so does the further gradual occupation and displacement.

    From their own historical statements their aim has always been in the eventual total occupation of Palestinian territory and beyond, until they achieve the “Greater Israel” and “Promised Land” borders they have alway wanted and feel entitled to.

    If any concessions need to be made they should come from Israel. They can start with the 1949 Geneva Convention about moving citizens into occupied areas which they signed but now flagrantly and conveniently ignore. Their semantic definition of “disputed” rather than “occupied” territory are just weasel-words.

  45. Andy56

    Karen, the reality on the ground arguement says it all about the israeli motives. Stop taking sides and you will see the world in a different context.

  46. Karen Kyle

    Matters Not……..History ought to be about careful recording of what happened relying on supportable evidence like facts. Then the careful interpretation of those facts in search of insight and truth. History is not like maths or logic, but a bad historian who is not doing the job is easily exposed.

    For example the Israeli Historian Ilan Pape said in a television interview that Israel was committed to “incremental genocide” by carefully controlling the number of calories given to Palestinian Refugees. This is odd because the number of Palestinian Refugees has increased more than threefold in the last sixty years. Their life expectancy is close to Israeli life expectancy and is higher than other ME populations.

    But, more than that, what Ilan Pape hoped his television audience didn’t know is the fact that Palestinian Refugees have their own specific UN Refugee Agency UNRWA. And UNRWA is run and controlled entirely by Palestinians. Distribution of aid is entirely in their own hands.

    Ilan Pape starts by distoring facts and then builds a lie on the incorrect use of facts. A liar in other words. A propagandist.Not an historian. Ilan Pape believes that the purpose of writinng history is to suit and bolster an ideological perspective. Therefore he is not interested in what happens, he is interested in presenting a certain kind of narrative and he will lie and twist facts to that end.

  47. Kaye Lee

    “Can you give me an example of a Palestinian offer of compromise on the subject of a Palestinian State. Just one?”

    December 2014:

    The Palestinian resolution set out a year-long process for a “just, lasting and comprehensive peaceful solution” to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which it stipulated should include a “sovereign and viable” Palestinian state based on 1967 borders. All Israeli forces would withdraw from the occupied territory by 2017, under the resolution.

    We voted against that.

  48. Kaye Lee

    “relying on supportable evidence like facts…..Their life expectancy is close to Israeli life expectancy.”

    Palestine life expectancy: 73.7 years
    Israel life expectancy: 82.66 years

  49. Andy56

    Karen, its so obvious whose side your on. Thats the problem, you seem to have no empathy for the palestinians. Like i said until there is a just settlement, you can live in the fantasy bubble that is israeli righteousness.
    Rest assured, the neocons wont be in power for ever. When the tide turns, the shoe may just be on the other foot. What you do now may determine what the other side does later. Thats a historical lesson you havent learnt yet.

  50. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee…….of corse we voted aginst that. Not all our mothers gave birth to idiots. That resolution talks about The Right of Return which means that all Palestinian Refugees including their children, grandchhildren and great grandchildren.I don’t know how many millions that adds up to but it is more than enough to swamp and destroy the Jewish State by sheer weight of numbers.

    As for life expectancy the figures I saw took a sixty year view. Over the last decade or so the amount of Aid collected for Palestinian Refugees has been steadily declining. Even from the Arab States who are inflicted with problems of their own and beginning to bitterly resent the never ending enormous expense of supporting ever increasing numbers of Palestinian refugees, especially given the number of more recent Syrian Refugees. Everyone it seems is getting to be heartily sick of the problem including other Arab States who put up a proposition of their own to achieve peace years ago at a meeting in Lebanon. The day before that proposal was put there was another suicide bombing in Israel which derailed the whole issue. Of course Yassar Arafat was innocent. He knew nothing about it. Yeah right.

  51. Matters Not


    History ought to be about careful recording of what happened …

    Any recording will have to be selective – in that it’s both impossible and undesirable to attempt to record everything that happens. That’s always a problem if one thinks it’s possible to write a completely objective (historical) account. As you point out in the same piece.

    distorting facts and then builds a lie on the incorrect use of facts

    One wonders how he distorts facts. What do distorted facts look like? The mind boggles. And then there’s a bigger problem in the form of: the incorrect use of facts. How does one decide what’s a correct/incorrect use of facts? Might be worth citing someone from the past who thought long and hard about the problem of writing history.

    demonstrated that the historian and his/her facts are inseparable. … the facts create the historian and the historian creates the facts. … it proves that the Positivist notion that facts could simply speak for themselves as erroneous. … history is ultimately a subjective enterprise simply because the historian will always be limited by his subjective worldview. By extension, this means that historical facts are never neutral nor objective.

    Further – and this seems particularly relevant here.

    he thinks that students of history must first study the historian before the historical facts — an important prerequisite considering the dangers posed by the various misuse of history.


  52. Matters Not

    As an aside (of sorts). Travelled with lots of people of Jewish ethnicity (mainly from the US) to the many death camps in Poland. Nothing unusual to report. Behaved ’emotionally’ but ‘normally’ – polite, well mannered, civil, courteous, thoughtful, etc. Also been to Chiang Mai for their Flower Festival along with busloads from Israel. Now they are a different kettle of fish. Exhibit the attitude of: it’s us against the world – disagreeable, inconsiderate, nasty, unfriendly, downright rude, arrogant etc.

    I put it down to the development of a siege mentality. Would never give the metaphorical inch – whether it was entering lifts, seeking food at the smorgasbord, never any hesitation, never any attempt to consider others, no holding back and so on. It’s all about me! Seemed to me that it was nothing to do with them being Jews but being Israelis. I believe Hotel staff, tour guides and the like all know it. Very unpopular guests. Yes we have ugly Australians abroad (far too many drunken bums etc) but Israelis are in a category of their own. And perhaps for good reasons but can’t see an easy (or any) compromises on the horizon..

  53. Andy56

    again Karen, you fail to address israeli intransigence. The world is getting sick of the palestinian issue, because, well palestinians are bad people. Poor Yassa is getting an ” its all labor’s fault” treatment.
    Remember this, the palestinians would have been buried if it wasnt for those planes blowing up. It was a wake up call, but we determined them terrorists and the rest is history. As i recall, a few jewish gents started a war of terrorism against the british. Seems the palestinians had great teachers.
    To keep working when the canary is dead is insanity. You just keep on thinking, its the palestinians’ fault and the world will be a better place, not.
    I dont think you have a grasp of history , only the victors spiel.

  54. Karen Kyle

    Matters Not……………Facts are distorted when they are not accurately expressed e.g.Israelis are engaging in “incremental genocide by denying Palestinians adequate calories. Fact…..UNRWA run by Palestinians recieves the Aid and distributes it. Accurate representation of FACT.

  55. Karen Kyle

    Matters Not…..and we are dealing with realities here. Not bloody positive philosophy. And the niceness or otherwise of Israelis is irrrelevant.

    Andy I have no quarrel with Palestinian Arabs as such. Just some hearty scepticism re the appalling leadership. How do you solve a problem in the real world when both sides have vaid points to ponder?

  56. Andy56

    thats right Karen, keep cherry picking issues where palestinians are to blame. Your in your own ” life of brian”, “a sign a sign”.

  57. Matters Not

    KK re:

    Facts are distorted when they are not accurately expressed

    Then they are not facts. But when it comes to facts and history, I’m of the view that the importance of facts (while necessary) is vastly overrated. Yes you might need nails to build a wooden house but an unlimited number of nails doesn’t make a house. It’s the same with facts and history.

    The conflict there is truly a WICKED problem made worse by the US and its current President and his pandering to the religious right. Best we keep our distance as a government. Bring all sides into the tent. Provide aid etc. Has to be compromises all round but no sign(s) of that.

    Then again I don’t have skin in the game but I suspect you do. I think I am studying you as a historian. Nothing wrong with that is there?

    As for the realities of which you speak, they are your realities. Constructed by you. Not that there’s anything wrong with that either. Just expected. Natural and all that.

  58. Karen Kyle

    Matters Not……no skin in the game. Just hate propagandist liars of either the Left or Right variety. And the realities of which I speak seem to be the realities as understood by a good many people. If fact the realities of which I speak seem to be main stream thinking. Mostly sane. The realities expressed by some on this site are not main stream, that does not make them right or confer intellectual superiority in any way. Quite the opposite in some cases. And the Left nineteenth century materialism has had it’s day. It is gone and good riddance. How many lives did Marxism cost again.? I had heard one hundred million. Can that be right?

    More than one aspect of nineteenth century materialist thinking is about to face some serious challenges. I hope we are about to ditch the lot. It was useful up to a point but the point was limited.

  59. Karen Kyle

    And facts might help write a history…..they don’t create an historian. The historian is supposed to follow the facts not make them up. You are getting confused. I think you are confusing history with philosophy and while there may be varous philosophie of history if like any political ideology they are applied to the writing of history what you get is badly distorted junk..

  60. Kaye Lee

    “.of corse we voted aginst that. Not all our mothers gave birth to idiots. That resolution talks about The Right of Return which means that all Palestinian Refugees including their children, grandchhildren and great grandchildren.”

    Gee that was never mentioned in the reasons given by our UN Ambassador Gary Quinlan. This was all he said….

    “Regrettably, the draft resolution under consideration today will not help this process and that is why we have voted against it.”

    “It lacks balance and seeks to impose a solution put forward by one party alone. Final status issues can only be resolved between the two sides. A process agreed by both sides is the only way forward to reach an enduring agreement.”

    “The violence experienced in recent months in the Palestinian territories and Israel underlines the terrible human costs of the failure of final status negotiations and how fragile the situation is in the absence of genuine progress towards establishing a Palestinian state – an objective in which Australia believes and to which we are committed.”

    Don’t all Jews have a Law of Return to Israel? Aren’t they the ones who are expanding and taking land that isn’t theirs?

    You do seem very one-sided about your facts Karen.

  61. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee…….The Right of Return as far as the Palestinian Arabs are concerned is the sticking point. The impossible sticking point. The unrealistic sticking point, based on a law pertaining to Palestinians which applies to no other people on the planet. Heriditary refugeedom regardless of where and when they were born. This has the capacity to build the problem up to explosive proportions because those heriditary refugees are so often unable to emigrate, or move to areas where they can build futures for themselves and families. Palestinian refugees are being used as pawns in a foul political game which has nothing to do with their welfare and will keep them in a permanent state of dependence and suffering. and a permanent state of anger and murderous hostility.This is deliberate. It is what the Arab world wanted, to keep the issue alive, to get rid of Jews. Only now they are showng signs of getting sick of it. The cost is horrendous and some of them want to “normalise” their relationship to Israel for reasons of vital self interest. So the circumstances of the past do not have the same force or urgency today. And where does that leave the Palestinians? I think it is up a certain creek with no paddle.

    And yes the Israelis do have The Right of Return. They are using Hitler’s definition of a Jew. Anyone with one Jewish grandparent.can imigrate to Israel. But the circumstances are different. Most Jews in the diaspora will not imigrate to Israel. Jews who are persecuted or who feel unsafe in their country of birth still use Israel as a bolthole e.g French Jews. If antisemitism around the world continues to grow more Jews could imigrate to Israel. And I looked at that Resolution you spoke of and it has the Right of Return as an integral part which is as usual. The Right of Return is always an integral part although some Palestinians are increasingly recognising that it is not possible.

  62. Kaye Lee

    The Law of Return is an Israeli law, passed on 5 July 1950, which gives Jews the right to come and live in Israel and to gain Israeli citizenship. Section 1 of the Law of Return declares:

    “every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh [immigrant].”

    In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jewish grandparent and a person who is married to a Jew, whether or not he or she is considered Jewish under Orthodox interpretations of Halakha.

    You state you think this is different somehow….for Jews it is fine because they don’t want to migrate there but you think Palestinian descendants will flood the place. Why the descendents of either ethnicity/religion would want to live in a hell hole of racism, bigotry and violence is beyond me. But you can’t complain about one group having the right to return whilst ignoring that the other group have the same right and are the ones who are appropriating territory that is not theirs.

    To suggest that anti-semitism is a problem in Australia is really crap. It is way less of a problem than our racist patriarchal treatment of our First People, our hysterical Islamophobia, and our increasingly damaging rhetoric about Chinese people, African people, Lebanese people, anyone who is identifiably different.

    Israel have been bastards in annexing land that isn’t theirs. Ignoring that fact makes the discussion unrealistic.

  63. Andy56

    “this is deliberate, what arabs want”. Well there is a short circuit to the whole fiasco, let then in. Its a form of apartied that israel is trying to practice. your just shifting the burden to arab states when they didnt create the refugee problem. I am sorry, but a preemptive strike was a form of plausible denial all those years ago. Knowing what we know now, a territory grab was the real reason. Remember the same barstards that started the terrorism against the brits where the same people who governed israel. Dont give us any of your pruritanism, it doesnt wash.

  64. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee…..There would be little point in establishing a homeland for the Jews if Jews were kept out of it eh? And the Arabs have all of the ME and North Africa. Fair enough in my opinion. And we are not talking about a nice logical balance here. No quid pro quo, no tit for tat, no mathematical equasion no force of logic. We are talking about a messy human world where logic often does not exist and philosophical burbling is absurd and murder is rampant. Murder is rampant. Maybe you think there hasn’t been enough murder. Not even after the history of the twenteth century arguably the worst century in human history for murder..So please spare me your pious what’s good for one rubbish. You argument is pale in comparison to the undisputed murderous facts.

    And I made no claim that antsemitism is a problem in Australia. Most antisemitism in Australia is covert, so that those who are antisemitic don’t even know it. Don’t recognise it in themselves but they reveal it all the time and there is not mere criticism behind it there is malice and hate.

  65. Kaye Lee

    “Maybe you think there hasn’t been enough murder. ”

    Oh do drop off. What an utterly inane thing to say when I am trying to discuss facts and work out why Israel gets a free pass to ignore internationally recognised boundaries to invade and settle territory that is NOT THEIRS and why they and their apologists cannot see that that is the main contemporary problem and it rests entirely on their shoulders.

    I didn’t say you declared anti-semitism a problem in Australia Karen. The Prime Minister did. The man who thought stoking Islamophobia would be an electoral advantage for his party. Hence the article, which you seem to ignore in favour of pushing an argument you prepared earlier.

  66. Karen Kyle

    So you think Israel gets a free pass? There is no free pass for Israel. The Jews went from the fires of Europe into the frying pan of the ME. We did them a hell of a favour. The day after the State of Israel was declared they were invaded by five not very good Arab armies. The Arab armies were less interested in protecting and establishing a Palestinian State than grabbing territory for themselves. Jordan snaffed the West Bank and annexed it, Egypt grabbed Gaza and parts of the Negev Jordan took Jerusalem and Syria? Syria didn’t want much just a small bit of the north and half the water in the Galilee Stuff the Palestinians..

    The Israelis have been in a more or less constant state of war ever since. It took nineteen years for them to get Jerusalem back. They found the Jewish quarter destroyed, a very old synagogue demolished and Jewish head stones used to line latrines. Yeah…..Israel gets a free pass. The most emotional words to come out of the war “Jersalem is in our hands” Jesus Christ…..if only you understood what that meant. The Jews had come home, really come home.

    Since doing all this research I am convinced that about eighty percent of the Palestinian narrative is manufactured rubbish.with a heavy emphasis on manufactured. There is a British Historian named Tom Holland who wrote a book about the roots of Islam. He also made a documentary which was shown on BBC Four and it is availabe on the net. It puts the lie to Islam. He has since done the same for Christianity exposing the roots. Very interesting. And Israeli archeologists have exploded some of the myths in the Hebrew Bible.And in exploding the myths they have uncovered the wisdom. There is a hard core of wisdom in all scripture and it does represent the earliest intellectual and spiritual adventures of our forebears. We should not discard it..

  67. Andy56

    oh Karen, you sure have swallowed the narrative, hook, line and sinker. Your heart is closed to the reality on the ground for Palestinians. Stop looking for excuses for israeli government behaviour. Every argument i have heard are just excuses. Your spiritual awakening doesnt further any arguments you have, it just gives your game away. So much for the ten commandments, another load of bullshit when it suits.

  68. LambsFry Simplex.

    Are we not all of the same species?

    Why cannot people like Karen Kyle feel the same empathy for an Arab child as one of their precious “own”?


  69. Karen Kyle

    Listen up people. Thanks for assuming I don’t feel empathy for Palestinians in general and children in particular. Bloody nice of you. It is their leadershp that bothers me. They have no compunction whatsoever about murdering. And they bring their innocent children up the same way. Now if the Palestinians would just stop killing Israelis the situation for them and their children would improve out of sight. This does not seem likely to happen They see wholesale murder as an answer to their probems, an attitude seemingly shared by you lot. Violence and killing is not an answer to anything. It makes a bad situation worse. Surely to Christ you see that much.

  70. Kaye Lee

    And that is the tragedy LambsFry, While people continue to argue about the past, today’s children are growing up in an environment of violence, hatred, mistrust…or worse still, not growing up. How many of them must die before politicians get over their dick-swinging? As for the scriptures, they are what caused most of this crap.

    Karen, it’s a bit rich for you to say “Thanks for assuming I don’t feel empathy for Palestinians in general and children in particular. Bloody nice of you” when you just said to me “Maybe you think there hasn’t been enough murder” followed by “They see wholesale murder as an answer to their probems, an attitude seemingly shared by you lot.”

    Self-reflection is not one of your best things is it.

  71. Kaye Lee

    Karen, could I suggest you read this human rights watch report to get a better understanding of what is actually happening to people in this area now rather than raking over thousands of years worth of grievances.

    “Israeli forces stationed on the Israeli side of the fences separating Gaza and Israel responded to demonstrations for Palestinian rights on the Gaza side with excessive lethal force. Between March 30 and November 19, security forces killed 189 Palestinian demonstrators, including 31 children and 3 medical workers, and wounded more than 5,800 with live fire.

    The Israeli army also launched intermittent air and artillery strikes in the Gaza Strip, killing 37 Palestinians between March 30 and November 19, including at least five civilians.

    As of November 19, lethal force by Israeli forces resulted in the killing of 252 and injuring of 25,522 Palestinians in Gaza, OCHA reported.”


    There’s a lot of murdering going on. Pretending Israel isn’t doing any of it is demonstrable bullshit.

  72. Michael Taylor

    Karen Kyle, I’m not sure what it is that you excel at the best: ignorance, hypocrisy, or racism.

  73. Karen Kyle

    Yes there is a lot of murdering going on. And if it continues to go on it will escalate into a full blown war where the Palestinians will come off second best. Wouldn’t you think the UN would step in? Wouldn’t you think the Arab nations would step in to stop the violence rather than just let it happen.Or has there been so much war in the ME that no-one wants to enter the fray? In any event it seems increasingly obvious that rouge states can get away with much these days. We can’t send the troops in every time.some fanatic or dictator steps over the line. I don’t know what the answer is but I am afraid the ME will be left to stew in it’s own juice and the Palestinians are very likey to be hung out to dry…….by the entire world..No one wants to intervene and the UN is a paper tiger.

  74. Karen Kyle

    Yes there is a lot of murdering going on. And if it continues to go on it will escalate into a full blown war where the Palestinians will come off second best. Wouldn’t you think the UN would step in? Wouldn’t you think the Arab nations would step in to stop the violence rather than just let it happen.Or has there been so much war in the ME that no-one wants to enter the fray? In any event it seems increasingly obvious that rouge states can get away with much these days. We can’t send the troops in every time.some fanatic or dictator steps over the line. I don’t know what the answer is but I am afraid the ME will be left to stew in it’s own juice and the Palestinians are very likey to be hung out to dry…….by the entire world..No one wants to intervene and the UN is a paper tiger. And bad though the Israeli actions often are…..their actions are defensive and they do have a right to defend themselves. If only he killing would stop. Demands should be placed on both sides to stop.the killing Both sides equally. Both of them.

  75. Karen Kyle

    MT……Bless you my sweet. I don’t mind what you think. Think away…..all you like. And you never put up any sort of argument Michael, always name calling and contempt. Whats the matter? Cat got your tongue? Have you got a tongue? In any event I am fed up with a people who never think beyond murder and act on it all the time until actions have to be taken to restrain them. Sorry about that. And if you are going to adopt a culture of murder you can forget about human rights. Screaming Human Rights won’t wash. It is tantamount to giving them permission to murder.

  76. Andy56

    Karen, you really dont see israeli intransigence or american influence at play at all? The only reason no progress has been obtained is the shear size of the israeli military which has them in a strange bubble of fear and hubris. Hit me with a rock? I will kill 3 of your people.
    I suggest that the fear is caused by a mountain of political opportunism. Fear makes people do the unthinkable, as history has shown. Every time i here an israeli polititian cry we will strike back, i see another nail in the coffin of reason. Destroy hope and there is no coming back. There may not be a mendela on the end of this one.
    The one thing that really fascinates me is this “the victim needs to fix the problem” attitude you have.

  77. Karen Kyle

    By the way how come you are not upset about the Chinese land grab in Tibet and the treatment of Chinese Muslims and Hong Kong and the Armenian genocide and a thousand other atrocities around the world. How come all your attetion is focused on this issue. to the exclusion of all others.

  78. Karen Kyle

    Yaeh I know…..the big bad Yanks. Had the temerity to project power and behave like a superpower which is what Ruussia and China want to do. Pardon me but along side either of those two I prefer the Yanks At least they have the rule of law democratic principles and human rights unless Trump works his magic.. And you are right about the Palestinians as victims. Victims of their insane leadership. You see reason vanishing as a result of this conflict. Reason vanished more than seventy years ago.

  79. Michael Taylor

    “ always name calling and contempt. Whats the matter? Cat got your tongue?”

    Contempt on display in that sentence.

  80. Karen Kyle

    Yeah and another thing. Human Rights are pretty thin in the Arab World. They believe in Human Rights only in the UN when it suits them Not for their citizens. Why should sections of the West i.e. Left therfore demand Human Rights for Paestinians? They must e nurtured and comforted and coddled and encouraged while they pursue an agenda of bloody murder. When they stop the murder when they lay down their arms which they have repeatedly refused to do that will be the time for Human Rights and other rights.

  81. Michael Taylor

    Karen Kyle, as a person of Arab descent I am both disgusted and offended by your latest comment.

  82. Karen Kyle

    Yeah…..Michael Taylor is a really good Arab name.

  83. Michael Taylor

    Karen Kyle, you will not knock my family or you’ll be out of here as quick as you can blink.

  84. LambsFry Simplex.

    For Karen Kyle to say, “Human rights are thin on the ground”, to me sounds pretty dishonest when you understand that even Karen can’t be aware of the historical process in general throughout the fertile crescent in particular, through to the colonialism and neo colonialism of the last century or two, that reduced the mid east countries to disorder and dependency.

    As with the rest of the world out side the charmed, controlling circle of the West, the Muslim world has been subject to punitive warfare as the West defends the interests of its oligarchs. There is much poverty throughout the entire region and much of the world as the powerful West has repeatedly installed military regimes inimicable to the interests of the masses of people in those places, for the basest reasons when they are not being put into debt otherwise through phoney economic “development plans and military spending for the benefit of western dominance and wealth.

    But how many times have we been through this Karen Kyle?

    You have to conclude, in the end that the response is a bit psychotic, mischievous and often vicious. I enjoy conversation, but not deliberate denialism and unrelenting troll-level obfuscation.

    There is only one other poster to these pages that deserves even the remotest comparison to Karen as to dishonest tactics.

  85. Lambchop Simnel

    Kaye Lee, it is not all the scriptures that are to blame. A fair bit Of OT is jingoistic, but it would quite be fair to say that the Ten Commandments or, digressing slightly, the NT Gospels, advocate the opposite attitudes and behaviours to what the ignorant, arrogant, denialist opportunist cranks who always run this world’s politics labour under and employ… people like Pence, Pompeo,Netanyahu (there you go, Thou shalt not steal, let alone Though shalt not kill) and various other cranks throughout other places throughout the world, like the Saudi and yes, Iranian autocrats.

    But ask yourself, if the constant ratcheting up of emotions and tensions in many places is a mere accident.

    It is true that even Buddhists and Hindus in some parts of the world go against the spirit of their framework’s matrix teachings, but all this really proves is that Islam is no different to the rest.

    But the problem is often more in the inability of the average human to accept what seems against their personal prejudices or tastes, to make an adjustment than take in advice handed down like, Thou shalt not bear false witness, something we see rampant in the Australian MSM and various parliaments.

    Here the Law also exists to protect the guilty.

  86. Karen Kyle

    Lambchop Simnel……..The last year was a particularly bad year for Human Rights in the ME. Easy to check if you want to. And the reason for the decline of the Ottomans etc is well covered and fairly well understood by good historians. The decline had little or nothing to do with Marxist ideology. In fact the decine was caused by internal circumstances within the empire and not much to do with external pressures except that the Ottomans technology and science fell well behind and was glarigly apparent during the time of Elizabeth the First.And the intellectual decline dates from at least the eleventh century at least in some parts of the empire. Strangled by religion as they are today.. A well known Arab commentator recently said “We teach our children to die for Allah. We should be teaching them to live for Allah”

  87. Kaye Lee

    “How come all your attetion is focused on this issue. to the exclusion of all others.”

    Ummmm…..because that’s what this article was about. You seem to be the only commenter that talks exclusively about the middle east from what I have observed, regardless of what the topic was.

    “The last year was a particularly bad year for Human Rights in the ME. Easy to check if you want to.”

    I take it from that you didn’t bother reading the human rights watch report from last year that I linked to. It looks at fault on both sides.

    Israeli authorities continued to expand settlements in the occupied West Bank and to discriminate systematically against Palestinians and in favor of settlers, in providing services, allowing freedom of movement, and issuing building permits, among other actions. During 2017 and the first eight months of 2018, Israeli authorities approved plans for 10,536 housing units in West Bank settlements, excluding East Jerusalem, and issued tenders for 5,676, as compared to approving plans for 4,611 units and issuing tenders for 592 units in all of 2015 and 2016, according to the Israeli group Peace Now.

    Meanwhile, Israeli authorities destroyed 390 Palestinian homes and other property, forcibly displacing 407 people as of November 19, the majority for lacking construction permits that Israel makes nearly impossible for Palestinians to obtain in East Jerusalem or in the 60 percent of the West Bank under its exclusive control.

    How to breed resentment.

  88. Karen Kyle

    Yes I did read the HR stuff thanks. Then I had a look at the ME as a whole. The reason I don’t comment on many articles is because I don’t necessarity disagree, and it is pretty standard political stuff. Only when my blood boils do I chime in. And some things especially lies make my blood boil. How come you don’t write articles on China, or Russia and the Crimea and the war in Ukraine? Hong Kong?

    Topical I would have thought. You skirt well away from some subjects. As for me I will put the pro Israel posiion because hardly anyone does, especially not here. And no-one on this site will voice anythig but the pro Palestinian position. I am accused of being biased, one sided etc. How about you lot?Not biased at all?

    Mostly what I find here is a not too subtle brand of casual unthinking antsemitisim. “They are playing the Holocaust card” when that has not happened at all. “They are running an apartheid state” “The military are experts in terror” What nonsense. The religious airbrush pictures of women out of newspapers. Rubbish. One minor sect does that. They use their supposed “chosen” status to justify their presence in Israel. They don’t. Never have. The government and governmnet negotiators are secular. Religious extremists might do that but they don’t make government policy. Criticism re settlements and the demolition of some Arab housing is valid. But that is a criticism of government policy and actions. It isn’t an example of antisemitism.

    The accusation of blanket punishment for the entire Arab population given the violence of some is bloody close to antisemitism. What do people usually do when dealing with violent and harmful people. In police stations prisons mental hospitals medical hospitals aged care facilities and schools all over the world.? They are restrained and their freedom of movement curtailed. In a non war setting this can be done with idividuals. But Israel Palestine is not a civil police situation. It is war. And ordinary police methods won’t work.

  89. Karen Kyle

    A good many people on this site don’t use their own names. Why?

  90. totaram

    Karen Kyle: How do we know your name is your own? Do you really think we are all stupid enough to fall for that one?

  91. Roswell

    KK, I think it’s fairly obvious why many people here (and elsewhere) use a non de plume.

    Of course, I’d never do it.

  92. Kaye Lee


    Whilst Kaye Lee was the name my father knew me as, it is not the name that I am known by professionally now. I used to comment under that name until I was threatened – that didn’t bother me – but someone then published what they thought was my business address and invited others to come round for “a chat”. Unfortunately for someone else, they had the wrong town. That made me be much more cautious about anything personal.

    We are here to discuss opinions, ideas, current affairs, politics. You do not have to reveal anything personal or identifiable to do that.

    As far as this site being anti-semitic is concerned, bollocks. The whole area is a mess and no side is blameless but the Israelis are being bullies and making solutions impossible. Mind you, I think many of the people would much prefer peace – it is the militant Zionists who will continue to take and take and take, backed up by a military and security forces who lethally overreact and a government (and judiciary to a degree) who condone them.

  93. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee…….Bollocks isn’t an answer to antsemitism on this site. This site is riddled with it……starting with George Venturini and his Bank of England plot to do God knows what, embellished by a commenter who said Evelyn Rothschild acts as stockbroker for the Queen and other Jewish financiers are involved. He couldn’t name them. The Jewish plot to take over the finances of the world is the best you beaut antisemitic lie perpetraed in the last hundred and fifty years. It came from Russia under the Tzar. And some of you just swallow it. You have that in common with Nazis.

    In a previous post on this thread I listed the examples of antisemitism. I forgot one. Someone made the observation that because of Jewish suffering Jews should therfore produce much better government than the rest of us. This is also antisemitic. The Israeli Government is just like any government……sometimes getting it right, sometimes wrong, mostly honest and sometimes corrupt. To hold Israeli government to a different standard because of Jewish suffering is weird.

    The noted Historian Robert Wistrich has written an aclaimed work on the history of antsemitism. It is called “A Lethal Obsession” The big main history aside he knew it was necessary to write another book devoted entirely to antisemitism on the Left. It is called “From Ambivalece to Betrayal”

    Antisemitism in it’s most lethal and modern form came from Russia, infected the Soviet Union and from there Communist Parties in the West as well as the Middle East. Russia does a good job of spreading manure. And that is why people on this and other members of the Left line up with the Palestinians. It is OK to engage in perpetual murder of Jews. It is even justified. And as far as Palestinians are concerned it is celebrated. The link between Yasser Arafat, The PLO and the KGB is well understood. So is the reframing of the issue to build it up into a nationalist fight for a people who were Arabs and Ottoman citizens and didn’t think of themselves as Palestinians. They do now. They have consructed an entire mythology around it. Mamoud Abbass the leader of Fatah in the West Bank also did his stint in the Soviet Union. He did a doctoral thesis on the supposed lies told about the holocaust He sai he has ninety documents to back his claim. Where he got them no=one knows, and no one.has ever seen them. That indicates the less than rigorous state of higher education in the Soviet Union at that time. Turning out propaganda instead of truth.

  94. Karen Kyle

    The book written by Robert Wistrich is called :From Ambivalece to Betrayal The Left, the Jews and Israel.By the way Kaye Lee if I encountered anyone whose main purpose in life was to kill me and mine I reckon I would be a bully.

  95. Kaye Lee


    People express opinions about all sorts of things here. Some I agree with, some I don’t. We discuss things. To suggest that anti-semitism is a common theme of this site is just wrong.

    The thing that ties most of us together is social justice. What we see coming out of Israel today is not just. Both sides have legitimate grievances but it is Israel who are stopping any sort of peace proposal by their actions in the occupied territories. Continually referring to the past hinders any hope of a decent future.

    Israel blocks power, restricts movement, blocks medical supplies, restricts building materials, and ignores settler violence against Palestinians. Gaza’s unemployment rate stood at 55 percent during the third-quarter of 2018.

    The limited supply of electricity in Gaza compromised the water supply, sewage treatment, and hospital operations. Shortages of fuel, needed to operate generators during power outages, stemming from various factors including disputes over payment for the power between the PA and Hamas and exacerbated by Israel blocking entry of fuel in July, led to the partial closure of several hospitals. As of October 31, 44 percent of “essential” medicines were completely depleted, according to Gaza’s Central Drug Store.

    Stories like this are endless.

    It is Israel’s illegal occupation of territory that is stopping the peace process and they are persecuting the Palestinians that live there, treating them very differently to the Israeli settlers. I couldn’t give a flying fluck about their religion. But I do care about their intransigence in finding a solution to this endless war.

    You say you would be a bully if someone was trying to kill you and yours…what about if they illegally invaded where you live, took over, demolished you house, retricted your movements etc? And you might just want to check the casualty figures – the Israelis have killed and maimed a shit load more people than the Palestinians over the last few years.

  96. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee….Yes the situation is a mess.No two ways about it. But, as far as electricity in Gaza is concerned the supply has been cut because the PA is supposed to pay the bill and refuses to do it owing to their power struggle with Hamas. I don’t know who pays for the limited amount of power they get every day now.

    Water is a big problem because the infrastructre has needed replacing for years and Aid from the International community has been supplied to do it, but the job wasn’t done. Hamas corruption is suspected. Money vanishes. Water is also a problem because the ME has just been through a long and severe drought. The ground water from wells which the ME has relied on for centuries has dried up and is not being replaced. A big problem all over the ME especially Syria where half a million farmers were forced off their land owing to lack of water…Be careful who you blame for bad conditions. They are not always down to the monster Israel. although Israel is invariably blamed.Medical supplies seem to get through to Gaza altough they often run short. The hospitals continue to function. Water goes in every day by truck and quite an amount of food AID..Otherwse there would be no-one left alive in Gaza.The food they can produce themselves is limited. There is also a good deal of smuggling going on through tunnels on the Egyptian side. Don’t forget Egypt is also enforcing the blockade..

    When the latest round of protests began Gaza was running out of tires to burn. Some idiot spokesman from Hamas appeared on TV demanding the blockade be lifted. They wanted food medical supplies building materials etc. They also wanted Israel to send them tires to burn in protest. They were running out. They also wanted weapons and ammunition bought in so they could kill Israelis. And they use concrete and building supplies to build tunnels into Israel. Stuff housing for their own people.And they actually complained because Israel wouldn’t send them the necessary to kill Israelis.

    As for the war and the refugee problem the destruction of Arab villages and the expulsion of Arabs, instead of taking the propagandist appproach of the Marxists you could try reading Benny Morris or just look him up on YouTube. One of the New Historians. Plain unvarnished and accurate as possible. True the Arabs were cleared out of strategically important areas and their villages destroyed so they couldn’t go back. But in other areas plenty did go back. Some never left. There was never a government policy to clear out the Arabs. It was largely left to the troops on the ground and depended on the circumstances. If an order came down the chain of command to clear the Arabs out of an area sometimes it would be obeyed and other times not. But obeyed or not there was never any comeback from the army or the government. If there had been a policy to clear out the Arabs it could have been done easily enough. It wasn’t. And today twenty percent of the Israeli population is Arab. Obviously they either stayed or came back.

    As for the antisemitism….it is written in black and white on this site, on this thread in English and it is just plain antisemitism. Just all the crap and junk which has been going around for years.. Not even original. And I noticed you carefully avoided the subject of your disgraceful pedigree re Israel/Palestine the Soviets the KGB and the spreading of antisemitism.

    I just saw a clip on YouTube re a Maxist talking about the subject. Hesays the Arab and Israeli working classes should get together and throw off the capitalist monster to achieve justice???????????? Jesus Christ.

  97. Karen Kyle

    Kaye Lee The casualty figures……..would it be better if there was an equal number of casualties on both sides?

  98. Kaye Lee

    I was wondering how long before you resorted to your “Marxist” boogeyman stuff.

    Karen, every conversation with you is the same. I can’t be bothered anymore.

  99. Kaye Lee

    If I was boss of the world, I would make Israeli security and military leave the occupied territories and withdraw from administration of those areas, back to their 1967 borders.

    I would make the occupied territories a UN protectorate with a UN policing/peacekeeping force to maintain order, and form an administration with equal Israeli/Palestinian representation chosen from people (not sure how yet – since I’m boss, they can submit their CV along with their ideas) who are committed to peaceful co-existence where all are treated equally.

    I would employ locals to build the infrastructure and housing that the area needs – Jews and Arabs working together building.

    I would have a citizenship agreement for anyone wanting to live there, committing them to be the beacons of hope and peace – the people who want to live harmoniously together regardless of race, creed, or any of our other differences, forgiving past grievances in the hope of making a better future for their children. They could be an example to the world and a buffer zone between those who are yet to understand how much they are hurting their kids.

    You must earn your right to live there by committing to this social contract.

  100. Karen Kyle

    Yes…..it is the kids isn’t it? I can’t see pictures of little Palestinian boys playing in the street without wondering what is ahead for them. A Jewish mother has just posted pictures on line of her trembling frightened little children. A rocket attack from Gaza. There are no words for the kids in Syria and Lebanon.

  101. Kaye Lee

    Yes Karen and that should always be our focus (and our responsibility) as it was with the Uluru Statement From the Heart.

    “Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination.

    We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people for a better future.”

    Oh, and it would also be good if we stopped selling arms into the area. Our immoral greed disgusts me.

  102. Andy56

    karen, you are lost in your own haze of prejudice. Stop being so overtly one sided. Stop making excuses for the israeli government. Both sides are to blame . I would send in the troops to sort it out but then i am not in control. All we can do is point out peoples obvious hypocrisy. Jews and christians value the bible beyond reason, so why dont they adhere to the fcking thing?
    Dont lump the whole middle east into the basket case and then point out how hopeless they are. American interference has caused that. Remember the late Shah of iran? Since ww11, america has been the cop and fcked everyone over. And you think they are better than the russians or chinese? As it currently stands, i would rate the russians and chinese as more frigging honest.
    Why dont we use our real names? To be truthful, i dont need the world to know who i am and i may have some skeletons like everyone else. Doesnt mean my point of view is invalid. If i really need to be contacted, the site has my email address.

  103. Karen Kyle

    It isn’t my so called predjudice that is the problem. Haven’t you been watching the news from the USA? Don’t you know what Russia has done? Including the grabing of Crimea and the invasion of Ukraine. Do you think that is OK? The whole world is paying a high price for Communism in Russia and Eastern Europe. And it willl be a long sad journey to recovery..And we have hardly begun to deal with China. And China’s behaviour is far from exemplary.

    And your assertion that the US is responsible for all the probems in the ME is just plain wrong and just plain ignorant. The ME is responsible for all the probems in the ME. Read the bloody history. But of course if you do you risk upseting your religious Marxist world view. Can’t have that. Musn’t let facts get in the way of reality, a lesson well learned from the Soviet Union and now Russia.

    And it is your predudice which see Russia and China as better cops on the world beat than the US. Neither Russia nor China has any kind of record which inspires confidence. Both covered in the blood of their own….

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