I’m alright, Jack

May 26, 2015
Written by: Kaye Lee
67 Replies

One of the things that has defined Australia in the past, given us a sense of pride, and made this country such a wonderful place to live, is our sense of community be it local, regional, or global.

When hard times strike, be it a death in the family, a town destroyed by bushfires or floods, a Pacific island devastated by a cyclone, a world torn apart by war, Australians have traditionally rallied around, sharing what they have and pitching in to help.

The help was given freely and with a generosity that did not ask for recognition – a knock on the door which, when opened, revealed a freshly cooked cake left on the verandah; toys and clothing and blankets and canned food delivered by the truck load; children adding their pocket money to millions donated by Australians in aid to rebuild after natural disasters; welcoming those fleeing from war and oppression and offering them a new life in safety and hope for a better future for themselves and their children.

When Sabra Lane interviewed our newly appointed Minister assisting the Prime Minister on Counter Terrorism, Michael Keenan, they had the following exchange:

SABRA LANE: The Government is considering stripping citizenship of those citizens who have become foreign fighters, making them stateless. Where would these people go?

MICHAEL KEENAN: Well, look, can I say it’s the Minister for Immigration and Border Protection who will be making some further announcements about this in the next few days. But as a broad principle, we think that citizenship is a privilege, it is not a right, and if you abuse that privilege, then we want to look about what action we can take to remove it from you.

SABRA LANE: If you deport them and send them somewhere else, is Australia effectively handballing the problem to another country? …..does a person become less dangerous when you send them somewhere else?

MICHAEL KEENAN: No, but obviously if somebody’s not in Australia, they don’t have the ability to threaten the security of the Australian people in quite the same way.

SABRA LANE: But are we abrogating our responsibility by giving the problem to someone else and not dealing with it?

MICHAEL KEENAN: Well our responsibility always and the primary responsibility always is the security of the Australian people. And obviously if we’re removing people from Australia who might pose a threat to Australian security, we are doing exactly that.

SABRA LANE: But you’re removing it to somewhere else.

MICHAEL KEENAN: Well our primary responsibility is the security of Australia.

It seems we have become the nation of “I’m all right Jack!”

The phrase, originally “F*ck you, Jack, I’m all right!!”, described the bitter dismay of sailors (“jacks”) returning home after wartime in the Navy to find themselves not treated as patriots or heroes, but ignored or sneered at by a selfish, complacent, get-ahead society.

It implies an attitude of “every man for himself, survival of the fittest, devil take the hindmost”, … but also, that all the possible advantages (however gained), success (however won) and satisfaction (whatever the cost to others) belong to me first!

The Urban Dictionary describes it as “Narrow-focus, narrow-gauge pseudo-Darwinian selfishness glorified as a sensible philosophy of society and life.”

Wikidictionary says it means “Not worried about any problems your friends and neighbours might have.”

And it seems to me, that’s where we are at.

As our government struts and preens and holds itself up as a model for “stopping the boats”, we read endless stories of overcrowded refugee camps, boats sinking on the way to Italy, or drifting around the Andaman Sea, or being turned back from our shores. Clearly the boats haven’t stopped, and never will while wars and persecution and poverty and inequality exist.

Throughout most of the industrialised world, political violence has been steadily declining for many decades. According to the Global Terrorism Database, terrorist incidents in the USA peaked around 1970 – between 1968 and 1972, commercial aircraft in the US were skyjacked at an astonishing rate of nearly one plane per week. While terrorist incidents have been declining in most developed nations, there are countries where deaths from terrorism have skyrocketed since 9/11. The most spectacular examples are those nations invaded by the US during the War on Terror – in particular, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why, then, do we accept without question the notion that the threat of terrorism now necessitates a fundamental shift in the powers we allow the state, in a way that would never have been politically palatable during eras in which political violence was far more common?

Why are we prepared to spend hundreds of billions on wars and armaments and turning away those fleeing from countries we have helped decimate?

Why aren’t we devoting those resources to combatting and protecting the victims of domestic violence?

Why are we slashing foreign aid and ignoring the tearful pleas of our Pacific neighbours whose countries are being lost to rising seas while we ramp up our coal exports?

Why are we giving billions in subsidies to fossil fuel companies who actively avoid paying tax?

Why are we employing police to investigate the unemployed and pensioners while cutting staff at the ATO who investigate tax evasion by big business?

Why are we penalising every employee in Australia by delaying/discarding the increase in the superannuation guarantee while we give tax cuts and deductions for companies?

Why are we making new mothers and families take cuts to pay for the government’s supposed largesse in childcare?

Why are we slashing funding for Indigenous programs?

Because I’m alright Jack.

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Jane SalmonMay 26, 2015 at 3:11 pm

Snap!! Was using this phrase to describe Australia’s wealthy today, too.

Catherine WrightMay 26, 2015 at 3:45 pm

Thanks for this lucid and well written article Kaye. Always like reading your work. Keep them coming!

John LordMay 26, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Ah yes why?

DavidMay 26, 2015 at 4:17 pm

Cheers Kaye. Actions of Abbott and his Ministers over last few weeks, reek of votes to be retained and/or got from the wavering rednecks, of whom there are plenty. His every day actions are with retaining power at whatever cost and he has thrown the truth completely out of his rhetoric.
Should this Physco win another term the consequences for the future of this nation will be catastrophic, a view I am not alone with.

Mark NeedhamMay 26, 2015 at 4:22 pm

So a few, home stay terrorists, can be booked into your house, Kaye Lee.

If you say No, then your credibility has gone out the door.

But, you can say, Yes, sweety, because it just won’t happen.
If it does, tell them: “I have a head ache darling, just not now”

Where do you lot seem to get your silly , sweet girly ideas.

Annie BMay 26, 2015 at 4:38 pm

A wonderfully written article Kaye – covering so much.

May I respectfully suggest substituting the word ‘we’ … for ‘they’ …. in your questioning towards the end of your article. …. It’s ‘them’ not ‘us’ who are dreaming up these wicked ideas – as listed in your questions. The government have almost 100% succeeded in divorcing themselves from the populace.

Oh but – according to the polls, 50% would say ‘we’ … because allegedly that 50% want the LNP to continue to – er – um ? govern ?? … The 50% are people who blindly follow the LNP ( cos our parents and grandparents did – so it’s all ok for us as well ), and includes also the elitist mob who don’t give a damn about anything but themselves and their profits, and the high and mighty LNP followers, who don’t bother reading one syllable about the horrors that this incumbent mob are inflicting upon us all.

If the abbott wants ‘the front door’ to be used, there are many ways of doing that. …. By using some of the so called billions ‘he’ has …. to build some form of large holding centres, with strict rules and regulations applying that a) they immediately begin to study our language, b) they immediately begin to be productive with some form of work given to them to do inside the accommodation c) that they get paid a small amount – and pay a miniscule of tax on it, d) that they obey the rules and understand that they simply cannot integrate into our society, until they have fulfilled their obligations as refugees wishing to become Australian …. and e) that it is made very very clear to all who wish to embark on these shocking journeys ( which they will continue to do – as you Kaye have noted ) …. that they totally understand what they are going to receive when they get here.

“Idle hands are the devils’ workshop”. …. These people need to have a sense of purpose, but also to understand that they basically have to prove themselves in a form of elementary schooling as to our laws, our language, our ways of life etc. …. After all, a child is not handed a scalpel and told to go perform an appendectomy ?? …. We go to school for a reason – to LEARN – and we do so for many years. …. Only when we have completed the full compliment of say, a medical degree through 3 levels of education, will we be able to be allowed a scalpel to perform the operation. …. and so it must be made abundantly clear, that refugees must also – LEARN – and to be productive, and thereby have the challenges to achieve something.

And a yearly extraction of the ‘best students’ (not a good example I know, but cannot think of any other at the moment ) will be chosen to join our society as productive citizens, awaiting perhaps naturalisation. … Something to aim for.

The money that this country is pouring into trying to train the Iraqi troops ( again / still) is just throwing good money after bad. …. They are trained, and then run away at the first sign of trouble. Either our training method is woeful, or this so called ‘army’ in Iraq will always be the same, and act according to their own dictates and not too much on what they’ve ever been taught. …. The Iraq army, imo, will never be any different – they are a law unto themselves, while all the time they nod in so-called appreciation and understanding of what they are being taught. … I doubt they understand 1/50th of what they a taught !!

THIS squandered money could and should be spent on creating some form of accommodation – and schooling, for these refugees – or at least a greater number of them. ( preferably all – but some will say that is totally impracticable, and could lead to more and more heading this way ). Well – more and more WILL be heading out onto all the seas over the next years ++ and something must be addressed – in the name of all that is decent and humanitarian.

Pity we could not get back the obscene $40 mill that was paid to the Cambodian government, to ‘trial’ ??? the placement of 4 refugees …. it could have gone towards the cost of accommodating refugees here.
What an absolute disgrace that was – and as though trialling 4 people could give an overall sense of anything to do with welfare and living standards etc. there. …. A diabolical move by the monster SM, who was then in charge.

An abominable waste of $40 million – right down the gurgler.

I am soooo angry …. these incumbents are an outrage, and an insult.

M-RMay 26, 2015 at 4:40 pm

The Australian of today was born under John Howard’s aegis. Not in terms of age, but in terms of starting to become what we now are.

Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 4:41 pm

Mark Needham,

Firstly, I would appreciate it if you didn’t call me sweety even though you must obviously be a big strong clever man. (Bats eyelashes)

The few children who have been swept up in this national security blitz for talking big on the internet have been dobbed in by members of the community, not because of the billions being wasted on making Tony Abbott look tough. If you think that terrorism is more of a problem in this country than the things I listed then I would suggest it is your credibility that is in question.

As far as the kids who realise they have made a mistake and want to come home are concerned, I am fairly sure they would prefer to return to their families than come and live with me.

mars08May 26, 2015 at 5:11 pm

How can a government minister strip somebody of their citizenship without proving that they are guilty of a crime? And how can you justify exile for one type of criminal and no other?

That such foolishness is even mentioned by our politicians is solid proof of how messed up this nation has become!

Mark NeedhamMay 26, 2015 at 5:15 pm

Kaye Lee,
Sorry about the “S” word., normally, it is that or possum., and ask my wife of 47 years, if I am “Strong ‘n Clever”
OK. The 1st half, plus some, of your article is all about “returning terrorists”, Yes or No.??
That is the bit that I addressed. I agree, mostly, with the rest of the article.
But I chose to attend to the first bit. Being the first, I gave it some priority, hence giving some credibility to my “opinion”. ( That, I do give a lot of thought, to potential Terrorism, here in Australia, is maybe a subject for another time.)

So, I’ll admit that I do not have a bed or a room for a “returning terrorist”. So, I am saying “up yours Jack”, well, not really, I just pick and choose those that I extend the hand of friendship to.
However, you intimate, that contrary to ” UYJ,IAR ” you perhaps are available to put a couple up at your place, on their return.
I believe that is a fair response to the general gist of your article.
Again, is your answer Yes or No?
If your answer is No, are you saying UYJ, or choosing your friends, as I do.?

Ricardo29May 26, 2015 at 5:20 pm

Stupid facile comment Mark Needham. Well written, Kaye Lee (once again) you nail it so well.

mars08May 26, 2015 at 5:34 pm

Can you imagine what Shorten and the ALP will say about this pathetic stunt. Can you imagine…? Can you?

diannaartMay 26, 2015 at 5:36 pm

Great writing (again) Kaye Lee.

To Mark Needham – I would rather find room in my home for some frightened kids than any internet-trolls or, for that matter, creaky, old in mind and in time, men.

Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 5:39 pm

If I was your wife then perhaps I wouldn’t object to being called “sweety” Mark. As we do not know each other, it is dismissive at best.

I have spent my adult life helping troubled teenagers in various different capacities – some of them have lived in my home. Having been a teenager myself and having raised two children and having a very large extended family, even within my own family, I know that kids make mistakes. I know that kids are vulnerable to seduction. I know the positive results that can be achieved by working with kids who have made wrong choices far outweigh the outcomes from labelling, punishing, and abandoning them. I know the heartache of parents whose kids have “gone off the rails”.

We should be asking ourselves how we have failed these kids and how we can improve. Why are they feeling alienated in their own community. Why our society is not listening and addressing the needs of our children. How much of a contributing factor is youth unemployment. How our education system is failing their needs.

I have seen kids that the “system” has written off go on to be productive contributing members of society.

Throughout history, many young men and women have gone off to war only to return disillusioned.

RosemaryJ36May 26, 2015 at 5:49 pm

If young men and boys find they move been misled by their seducers they will be the ideal people to discourage others from going down that path. A bit like AA. for jihadists.

Möbius EckoMay 26, 2015 at 5:53 pm

As well Kaye Lee the UK an others are successfully using returned young jihadists to educate and turn others away from the path they took. As is so typical of this government they want to shove everything under the carpet. As long as they and those awful refugees aren’t here they apparently aren’t a problem.

Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 6:14 pm

This country was colonised by people with serious criminal records who arrived on boats. The original citizens no doubt would have appreciated a few 747’s to send us back where we came from too.

If we have societal unrest then we should deal with it rather than exporting the problem. I am assuming the guy you went to school with is behind bars Jammy. That’s why we have laws. If the law is going to apply differently to people because of their ethnic heritage (even more than it does already) we are in a dangerous place.

Could I also point out they are talking about refusing entry to citizens of our country who are not known to have committed a specific crime. If there is evidence of crime then they should be tried here as Australian citizens under Australian law.

Andreas BimbaMay 26, 2015 at 6:21 pm

The more you make society like a dog eat dog jungle, the more aggressive the animals become, BY NECESSITY. The strongest in the jungle are feared and respected, the kind and compassionate are eaten. Neo-liberalism is self generating and can be defined as a positive feedback system, the worse things get, the more it is supported and of course a complicit mass media and a dysfunctional democratic process helps.

The solution:
We all find ways to reach and inform others such that a sufficient portion of the electorate votes for ethical and competent political parties and representatives.

Is it going to happen any time soon, probably not. Will it ever happen. Maybe. What’s more likely: (a) things basically continue as they are with the gradual erosion of our economic equity, civil liberties and democratic power or (b) constructive evolution or (c) destructive revolution?

Place your bets but I hope its (b).

mars08May 26, 2015 at 6:22 pm

David Hicks was found guilty in a rigged military trial… and he did not lose his citizenship. Now the government wants to exile Australian citizens without any proof at all? When the hell has happened to us?

Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 6:40 pm

“a loathing of the lives and values of normal Australians”

If I deplored the behaviour of “normal Australians” at the Cronulla riots should I be deported?

If I hate “biffo” in the rugby or sledging in the cricket should I be deported? Or if more agree with me, should Tony Abbott, he of legendary prowess in biffo and sledging, be the one whose citizenship is revoked? I was born here so surely he should be the one to go?

If I would rather eat oysters and drink champagne than have a pie floater and a beer should I be deported?

Could you define for me the life and values of a normal Australian?

stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 6:47 pm

None of that rational stuff like every culture is statistically similar in the percentage of personality types so good old Australia will export its problems while rewarding its greedy corporate and finical elites who willingly subjugate the poor and underprivileged. One group are quite mad and require some sort of helpful rehabilitation to diffuse radical terrorist tendencies while the other legally terrorise the poor and disenfranchised.

While a good portion of the public, as usual, fall for the great deflection and fear mongering of the oligarchic elites.

Mind you hypocrisy is their modus operandi.

corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 6:49 pm

Kaye Lee,
I confess limited sympathy for those who choose to travel halfway around the world to join the daesh or similar, whatever the psychology behind such a choice. Those who would voluntarily seek to participate in aggressive atrocity in the name of enforcing a twisted form of fanatical theology seem no loss to the society I would prefer. “Phuq you jack” kicks in somewhere for everyone.
Apart from that, I agree with the rest of the points raised in your article.

crypt0May 26, 2015 at 6:50 pm

Why indeed, Kaye? why indeed.
Because this is how it is here in Australia these days… as you said …
But a warning to Jack and his “friend” …
In the first budget it became obvious that abbott and co. were out to get everyone (except of course the big end of town) so their popularity waned alarmingly.
The 2nd budget is less obvious, and the approach is pick them off one at a time. So the average (unaffected so far) citizen thinks … “I’m alright, f0ck you, Jack ” So the polls improve.
I suspect the result of all this will be a second term for abbott and co. and they will then be able to do their worst with little further interruption, save for , hopefully, the Senate.
We don’t need Islamic terrorists; the “land of the fair go” is being destroyed from within.

stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 6:50 pm

Jammy piss off you foolish demented troll.

stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 6:52 pm

Corvus shipping them around the planet is no solution.

That is how ISIS survives.

Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 6:59 pm

“It’s going to stay just the way it is, because it works.”

Works for who? How far does your vision extend? What are we doing to help the global refugee crisis?

cb,

Look at the ages of the people travelling to join up. I have no sympathy for violence of any description and will not tolerate it in any situation I can personally influence. I also have a great deal of anger towards the arms-length arms manufacturers that are profiting from supplying children with guns and bombs.

corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 7:05 pm

stephentardrew,
I have no solution to any of it beyond discouraging the causes. I just have a very strong rational dislike of violent religious fundamentalism. Prejudice of mine.

Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 7:05 pm

“we should not let in so many problems in the first place”

A good reason to not be so quick to sign free trade agreements with ISDR clauses or to sign approvals for developments that insist on importing their own labour and using their own equipment and materials or to source our defence equipment from nations who refuse to share the technology.

diannaartMay 26, 2015 at 7:09 pm

Interesting thoughts, Andreas.

I do, very much, hope it is (b).

As an individual who tends to “fear and hate” the bully rather than “respect”, have bought myself a world of pain throughout my life, while mostly “kind and compassionate” when I have run out of options I will fight back – by any means I can. The bully forgets, that eventually their victims will not tolerate any more B/S.

I do not believe in violence, however, self preservation is something else, plus we have the majority.

stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 7:10 pm

Spot on Kaye.

corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 7:18 pm

On the subject of “keeping them out”, I wish a more than measly fraction of the resource directed towards these “humanitarian airdrops” of military ordnance halfway around the world (which helped stir up these wanna-be heroes [aka; stoopid little phuqqers] in the first place) had been deployed towards combating one of the actual enemy invaders marching across our soil and truly destroying our Australian way of life(e.g, fire-ants[Solenopsis invicta], aggressive little turds who hurt like all phuq!).

Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 7:20 pm

Your vision extends as far as Perth yet you castigated us for our lack of knowledge of how the Forex and commodity markets work. It seems to me you are the quintessential example of the topic of this article Jammy – so much so I am wondering if you are deliberately playing the straight man. It was the line about “deluded University grads” that made me realise you have to be taking the piss. No-one can be that much of a stereotype.

crypt0May 26, 2015 at 7:28 pm

Do not feed the troll … you know who I mean.
Do not even acknowledge it’s existence.
Just leave it to talk to itself.

corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 7:36 pm

Kaye Lee,
I know you love debating, but that one is halfway between a hole in the desert eating rat-meat and tinned beans, and stuck on a throbbing nuclear sub with a bunch of randy seamen(although it does know how to altar it’s alters).

ZathrasMay 26, 2015 at 7:57 pm

The chant of the true Conservative used to be –

“Whaddawe want?”
“Gradual Change!”
“When do we want it?
“All in Good Time!”

Now it’s become that of the Neo-Cons-

“Whaddawe want?”
“Everything!”
“When do we want it?”
“Now!”

Imagine giving the undeserving poor the rich man’s money?
It belongs to him and he will get it all eventually.

Meanwhile the rest of us are besotted with making untold riches from Real Estate (it used to be the Share Market) and all want a piece of the action and no longer care how we get it.

The Greed is Good ethos is alive and well in Australia and we are more interested in TV shows about home renovation and cooking than what’s happening on our own doorstep.

How did we come to this?

PhiMay 26, 2015 at 8:06 pm

Good article Kaye Lee – food for thought indeed.

Not sure of the value of engaging the trolls when there is so much more to be gained by debating with sane minds.

The more people who engage with the trolls, the less interesting the comments section becomes. Of course it’s likely that some of these are paid right wing trolls whose job is to disrupt debate. I think engaging with them is not in the interests of this extremely good independent media site.

Once I’ve identified a troll I can skip all their future posts leaving them to float off into the ether. I can’t be tempted to react to what I have not read. It’s a disciplined but satisfying way of detaching from the opinions of idiots.

mars08May 26, 2015 at 8:08 pm

Surely…. if we are going to abandon the silly youngsters who went o/s to join ISIS … we should also be prosecuting the fools who helped establish and support it…. no matter who or where they are … http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216

DavidMay 26, 2015 at 8:24 pm

@Phi..hear hear 100% hear hear re trolls

crypt0May 26, 2015 at 8:27 pm

mars … it’s a great idea and I suspect it will never happen.
It’s like governments never start an enquiry unless they (think they) know what will be uncovered.
In this case that which might be uncovered could never be allowed to see the light of day.

ChopperMay 26, 2015 at 8:28 pm

“If I deplored the behaviour of “normal Australians” at the Cronulla riots should I be deported?

If I would rather eat oysters and drink champagne than have a pie floater and a beer should I be deported?

Could you define for me the life and values of a normal Australian?”

Kaye Lee its very simple. If you are not a citizen by birth rights and have been given citizenship through migration – you can lose that citizenship if you perform certain crimes in the country (though that’s only happened a handful of times in history) or in another country. When you go for citizenship you vow to uphold values. Once it’s granted, it doesn’t mean you can dismiss those values and expect the same welfare cheque. The risk is you will be sent back where you came from – because you do not value the gift of Australian citizenship.

You have missed the point, as always. I would also be deporting the parents of these kids, because its not the governments job to look after them – its theirs. I know the left feel like its everyone else’s job to look after you…that’s why we have a conservative government. It’s thankfully a minority view point. Australia is such a great place because we don’t pander to a minority view point.

Möbius EckoMay 26, 2015 at 8:41 pm

We have a conservative government because they lied and deceived their way into government, aided and abetted by the media. Since then they have broken promise after promise, and back flipped more times than an Olympic gymnast, even taking up left wing progressive policies.

corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 8:43 pm

Maybe we should also consider measures to deport, jail, cut the benefits of or fine the parents of any citizen, new or other, committing a serious enough crime to warrant incarceration, as they had clearly failed in their duty to raise to raise what our accepted national values would call a moral and ethical citizen.
Whaddya reckon, Chop?

Möbius EckoMay 26, 2015 at 8:51 pm

As Abbott is a dual citizen, past vandal, prone to violence, a rorter and worst of all an economic migrant, maybe he should have his Australian citizenship revoked.

ChopperMay 26, 2015 at 9:35 pm

Corvus – I do entirely think that parents should wear the responsibility of their childrens actions. If they have citizenship from birth though….I think their punishment should be to have any benefits cut immediately. You cant deport them… Cause you know…theres a thing called law…and the law is if you are a citizen by birth you cant actually lose it, because this is their home. I’m all for Aussies who live abroad being sent back here if they commit crimes.

Mobius – Abbott has never been convicted of anything – so what’s your point? There’s a difference between someone who punches someone at uni and is never charged with anything, to someone who supports an anti western mob and joins them to wilfully kill people. Though your arguments fall flat I guess without ridiculous comparisons.

corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 9:39 pm

Chopper,
Surprisingly fair answer.

mars08May 26, 2015 at 9:44 pm

“I do entirely think that parents should wear the responsibility of their childrens actions. If they have citizenship from birth though….I think their punishment should be to have any benefits cut immediately…”

Let’s start with Schapelle Corby

Annie BMay 26, 2015 at 10:00 pm

@ stephentardrew – re. your comment –

” One group are quite mad and require some sort of helpful rehabilitation to diffuse radical terrorist tendencies while the other legally terrorise the poor and disenfranchised.”

Absolutely. Spot on. …. Big question – is this government acting in ANY way, in the proper way, according to the Constitution ? … Can they just ‘pronounce’ without any correct parliamentary procedure – H of R, and then the Senate …. anything they want ? …. Their recent ‘through regulation’ acts, doing what they like, when they like – can that not be stopped or at least queried ? …….. And who queries it ?

Don’t see it happening myself. …. They are waaaay out of control….. All acting like little Hitler clones.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

@ Andreas Bimba ….

Your post spoke a great deal. Much sense.

“The more you make society like a dog eat dog jungle, the more aggressive the animals become, BY NECESSITY. The strongest in the jungle are feared and respected, the kind and compassionate are eaten. “

This is true – in the jungle, in nature. …. I thought perhaps we were a little above the laws of the jungle, but perhaps we are not – when faced with a rabid, fascist mob of rule. … It tends to have a roll-on effect … Just hope I am wrong about that.

I too hope that your option (b) triumphs.

…….

@ diannaart ….. great comment – agree entirely. …. Self-preservation a necessity – absolutely.

Annie BMay 26, 2015 at 10:10 pm

@ Pijama Mulch …

” I don’t really care about the world’s refugees ” …. surprise, surprise – who would’ve thunk it !! …. AND

” My vision stretches about as far as Perth.” …. which is further than I would have expected. Figured it’d be more like about 12 metres from wherever you live, exist ? …. AND –

” I’m more a singularity.” …. oh INDEED you are, never a truer word spoken. !!! Out of the loop, big time.

For a weirdly brief moment, I thought you might have been contributing to comments, in a rational manner …. then you reverted to type. ….. hmmm. … Still the troll extraordinaire. !! eh ?

Your reply to me, ( the A_B bit ) was ludicrous, empty, and of course just a stir. Empty, because YOU are empty and devoid of any empathy, feeling or inclination to be a contributor to conversation, or to anything that resembles a positive attitude. … So – go swim around a bit more in your own effluent. … because that’s all that can be seen here, from you. …. a load of sh*te.

……

Phi – I felt obliged to have one last go – but it IS my last. The bod permanently in pyjamas ( hope he / she changes them once in a while ) …. can go get you-know-what’d from here on in. …. Phffft to him/her …. !

corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 10:52 pm

A goodnight for all who still try to give a phuq ( 😉 K.L.).

There is a war going on for your mind.
If you are thinking, you are winning.

John KellyMay 26, 2015 at 11:11 pm

Incredibly, the Australian Constitution does not clearly define what an Australian citizen is, or what their rights are. The matter has been left to the legislators. Even someone born here does not have automatic right of citizenship. What a chaotic mess our forefathers left.

John KellyMay 26, 2015 at 11:17 pm

Here’s a link to explain it all:
http://guides.naa.gov.au/citizenship/chapter1/citizenship-australia.aspx

Kaye LeeMay 27, 2015 at 8:22 am

I note Philip Ruddock has been appointed special envoy for citizenship and community engagement. Let’s hope he does a bit better than our Operation Sovereign Borders special envoy, Jim Molan, who was given over a million bucks to do nothing and whose position was quietly dropped in the budget.

To say we are getting a bit top heavy on national security is an understatement. We have the Prime Minister, Defence Chief reporting to Kevin Andrews, ASIO responsible to George Brandis, ASIS, the Defence Signals Directorate, the National Security Advisor, the Justice Minister who is doubling as Minister assisting the Prime Minister on Counter Terrorism, Ruddock as special envoy, National Counter-Terrorism Co-ordinator, Greg Moriarty, the AFP, Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells who will “develop better relations with community leaders and tackle the appeal of jihadist teaching”, oh and Peter Dutton who frighteningly has sole authority to decide people’s fate.

That’s a hell of a lot of man (and token woman) power.

townsvilleblogMay 27, 2015 at 9:14 am

Aussies never used to ‘dob’ on other Aussies either, not until the yankee philosophy invaded our country with their TV shows showing that sort of behaviour and the Aussie followed like sheep. We have seen the first ‘yankized’ budget last year and it didn’t go over too well, however the ‘horror’ parts are back this year hidden behind some more civilized policy, but it’s still there. When will Australians shake off their apathy and stand to protest in the streets about this Prince and Pauper approach from this extremist LNP government?

townsvilleblogMay 27, 2015 at 9:24 am

Kaye, I notice that you have attracted a couple of spoilers Mark Needham and Jammy March, I have noticed their puerile intervention on other AIMS blogs. A very sad indictment on the tories.

Mark NeedhamMay 27, 2015 at 10:16 am

K.L
Chee, it sure is good to be able to have a reasonable conversation here.
You know what I meant, by my question. You will not be able to guarantee the sensible actions of any returnee.
But, let’s get ’em back in, and set ’em loose, with their own family. Of course there will be no problem. Like our “released pedophiles” in the suburbs, nothing to worry about at all.
Good Article, Kaye Lee, good article.

Just not much practical thought, has gone into it.
Ah well.

stephentardrewMay 27, 2015 at 10:40 am

townsvilleblog: This is an incredibly important issue.

One of the implications of imported US crap TV is the visceral, nasty, unthinking, irrational application of victim blame and continual retribution rather than rehabilitation. Law and Order took this type of radical right wing diatribe to new depths. The US right is infiltrating cultures world wide with its judgment, blame, retribution and intolerance in the name of the greatest (Choke) Nation (read sycophants) on earth. This is not to denigrate all US citizens but to point out the immense power of the owners of wealth and media. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I wonder if there has been an academic sociological study into the implications of this sort of devious underhanded manipulation of attitudes world wide. Who needs religion when TV programing is so insidiously open to outright subversive messaging.

Just have to look at the damage the voice of few global warming deniers can have when they own the medium and the message (Marshal McLuhan).

It has been over twenty years of denial.

This really is a serious problems.

Just look at the lying conniving L-NP and their success at fooling over half of the nation.

In fact we progressives are not over-reacting.

If anything we have been neutered for too long.

Kaye LeeMay 27, 2015 at 10:41 am

I cannot guarantee the sensible actions of any other person Mark but I can speak with a great deal of experience in helping troubled teenagers and I can assure you that abandoning them is the worst thing we could do.

Are you equally concerned about the number of rapists who reoffend? About serial domestic violence? Can you guarantee they will behave “sensibly”?

Not everyone can be saved but our children are susceptible to seduction and we should do more to protect them. We have people well-trained to assist with rehabilitation and social cohesion. We also have laws to protect us and a judicial system to deal with criminals. As I said before, if there is evidence of criminal activity then prosecute them.

stephentardrewMay 27, 2015 at 11:06 am

As an ex youth worker I totally agree with you Kaye. These kids are invariably the product of dysfunctional families and ideologies and to blame them is to miss the causal contingencies, both physical-hereditary and sociological, that lead to disturbed lives.

The latest research into nature/nurture supports Polin’s thirty year old meta-analysis of nature nurture demonstrating a near fifty fifty influence of each. The problem, as always, is to determine which is the primary influence upon dysfunctional behaviour.

How the hell do you get people to understand non-emotional, unattached rational analysis of the causal facts.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-05-nature-nurture-results-twins-meta-study.html

mars08May 27, 2015 at 11:28 am

stephentardrew:

As an ex youth worker I totally agree with you Kaye. These kids are invariably the product of dysfunctional families and ideologies…

And the failed ideologies are shaped and driven by….?

Mark NeedhamMay 27, 2015 at 12:34 pm

Kaye Lee.

Yeah, like most conversations, bit hard over the web.

I am just not fussed, with people, who have made a decision to fight the good fight, with ISIS, and then return home. Really not sure where their head is going to turn next., and not that happy, about them running around the streets either.
At least, it is Good, that we can have this conversation, without the usual, “web snarly comment”
Thank you, Kaye Lee.

KyranMay 27, 2015 at 1:32 pm

There were some recent announcements by our alleged leaders and their minions (the agencies committed to our security) regarding the number of terrorist attacks that have been averted due to their wonderful vigilance. I haven’t been able to find the articles, but the attacks could be counted on your fingers, and the terrorists were kids who appear to have craved notoriety. On my recollection, ALL were ‘detected’ by tip off’s from concerned community and family members. The very communities our alleged leaders insist on demonising. As always, Ms Lee, a read well worth it. The paragraph most worth repeating, for me;
“Why, then, do we accept without question the notion that the threat of terrorism now necessitates a fundamental shift in the powers we allow the state, in a way that would never have been politically palatable during eras in which political violence was far more common?”
Whilst the article demonstrates the wasted money, particularly in relation to far more significant domestic threats, it is the loss of the ‘power of the people’ to the ‘power of the state’ that will hang like a yoke on our children. I really hope it doesn’t come to pass. Take care

jimhazMay 27, 2015 at 1:38 pm

Yeah, removing citizenship is not a responsible policy.

Speaking of irresponsible policies, here is one of mine! – Not letting more muslims immigrate for the next 5 years would be a policy I would introduce (without ever publicly recognising it as a policy), regardless of the international cost.

I’m sick of the dumbing down of Australia and strictly religious people are the dumbest of all. Islam has no external grace whatsoever (its all internal self-absorption and men playing power games over each other). At least the Christians have a counterweight of helping others – one does not see that in Islam. Islam also has no true leadership group and this means the rabid can make up whatever they want.

The problem is that it will take far too long for this religion to evolve modern values, making it not work the grief of the cultural friction.
Isolating the existing muslims in Australia from the massive islamic troubles overseas (in not importing the face-to-face stories and troublemakers), will give them a chance to open up, to lessen the negative impact of the religion.

Sad sackMay 27, 2015 at 3:40 pm

Is there a memory of a political group who trained school kids to be the eyes and ears of the police?

corvus boreusJune 4, 2015 at 7:59 pm

The latest “phuq you, Jack, I’m allright” award goes to (once again) Antony Abbott for stating that he liked the idea of rising house prices because he was already a home-owner.
‘Phuq ’em, I already got mine’.

Annie BJune 4, 2015 at 10:56 pm

corvus boreus ? ….. when the hell did he deliver THAT bit of nasty ?

How nice.
How delightful.
How diplomatic.
How bloody insulting.
What leadership !!! 🙁
How …. ghastly.

I could go on, but won’t.

………..

It has just occurred to me, while typing the above, that we often advise one another, to take no notice of trolls and trolling on this website.

The biggest, nastiest troll of the lot is the mean minded Anthony …. he uses the MSM for his intrusive and stirring, his own brand of trolling.

So – perhaps we should just ignore him altogether – never ever mention his name ( he would NOT enjoy that ) …. and get on with some more of the superb ideas that come up on this site – discuss ways and means of contributing to replenish and put back in order, the Australia we all know and love.

( and no-one could suggest, that the top ( heavy ) mob in Canberra, don’t have their little spies out and about in cyberspace, busily checking all independent media these days – would love a good bet on it ).

corvus boreusJune 5, 2015 at 6:23 am

Annie B,
TA uttered this gem in QT on Monday, responding to a question regarding concerns raised by the Reserve bank about ballooning house prices; “As someone who, along with the bank, owns a house in Sydney I do hope our housing prices are increasing,”

darrel nayJune 5, 2015 at 6:34 am

Increasing prices are one thing but ballooning prices are another thing altogether. Many working Australians (ie. our children) will never be able to afford a house in this country – is this healthy? If you look at the studies you will find that the Banksters have shovelled money into housing to force prices up and you can bet they will pull the rug out soon – we are already seeing foreign corporations buying up retail property.

Cheers

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Jane SalmonMay 26, 2015 at 3:11 pm

Snap!! Was using this phrase to describe Australia’s wealthy today, too.
Catherine WrightMay 26, 2015 at 3:45 pm

Thanks for this lucid and well written article Kaye. Always like reading your work. Keep them coming!
John LordMay 26, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Ah yes why?
DavidMay 26, 2015 at 4:17 pm

Cheers Kaye. Actions of Abbott and his Ministers over last few weeks, reek of votes to be retained and/or got from the wavering rednecks, of whom there are plenty. His every day actions are with retaining power at whatever cost and he has thrown the truth completely out of his rhetoric.
Should this Physco win another term the consequences for the future of this nation will be catastrophic, a view I am not alone with.
Mark NeedhamMay 26, 2015 at 4:22 pm

So a few, home stay terrorists, can be booked into your house, Kaye Lee.

If you say No, then your credibility has gone out the door.

But, you can say, Yes, sweety, because it just won’t happen.
If it does, tell them: “I have a head ache darling, just not now”

Where do you lot seem to get your silly , sweet girly ideas.
Annie BMay 26, 2015 at 4:38 pm

A wonderfully written article Kaye – covering so much.

May I respectfully suggest substituting the word ‘we’ … for ‘they’ …. in your questioning towards the end of your article. …. It’s ‘them’ not ‘us’ who are dreaming up these wicked ideas – as listed in your questions. The government have almost 100% succeeded in divorcing themselves from the populace.

Oh but – according to the polls, 50% would say ‘we’ … because allegedly that 50% want the LNP to continue to – er – um ? govern ?? … The 50% are people who blindly follow the LNP ( cos our parents and grandparents did – so it’s all ok for us as well ), and includes also the elitist mob who don’t give a damn about anything but themselves and their profits, and the high and mighty LNP followers, who don’t bother reading one syllable about the horrors that this incumbent mob are inflicting upon us all.

If the abbott wants ‘the front door’ to be used, there are many ways of doing that. …. By using some of the so called billions ‘he’ has …. to build some form of large holding centres, with strict rules and regulations applying that a) they immediately begin to study our language, b) they immediately begin to be productive with some form of work given to them to do inside the accommodation c) that they get paid a small amount – and pay a miniscule of tax on it, d) that they obey the rules and understand that they simply cannot integrate into our society, until they have fulfilled their obligations as refugees wishing to become Australian …. and e) that it is made very very clear to all who wish to embark on these shocking journeys ( which they will continue to do – as you Kaye have noted ) …. that they totally understand what they are going to receive when they get here.

“Idle hands are the devils’ workshop”. …. These people need to have a sense of purpose, but also to understand that they basically have to prove themselves in a form of elementary schooling as to our laws, our language, our ways of life etc. …. After all, a child is not handed a scalpel and told to go perform an appendectomy ?? …. We go to school for a reason – to LEARN – and we do so for many years. …. Only when we have completed the full compliment of say, a medical degree through 3 levels of education, will we be able to be allowed a scalpel to perform the operation. …. and so it must be made abundantly clear, that refugees must also – LEARN – and to be productive, and thereby have the challenges to achieve something.

And a yearly extraction of the ‘best students’ (not a good example I know, but cannot think of any other at the moment ) will be chosen to join our society as productive citizens, awaiting perhaps naturalisation. … Something to aim for.

The money that this country is pouring into trying to train the Iraqi troops ( again / still) is just throwing good money after bad. …. They are trained, and then run away at the first sign of trouble. Either our training method is woeful, or this so called ‘army’ in Iraq will always be the same, and act according to their own dictates and not too much on what they’ve ever been taught. …. The Iraq army, imo, will never be any different – they are a law unto themselves, while all the time they nod in so-called appreciation and understanding of what they are being taught. … I doubt they understand 1/50th of what they a taught !!

THIS squandered money could and should be spent on creating some form of accommodation – and schooling, for these refugees – or at least a greater number of them. ( preferably all – but some will say that is totally impracticable, and could lead to more and more heading this way ). Well – more and more WILL be heading out onto all the seas over the next years ++ and something must be addressed – in the name of all that is decent and humanitarian.

Pity we could not get back the obscene $40 mill that was paid to the Cambodian government, to ‘trial’ ??? the placement of 4 refugees …. it could have gone towards the cost of accommodating refugees here.
What an absolute disgrace that was – and as though trialling 4 people could give an overall sense of anything to do with welfare and living standards etc. there. …. A diabolical move by the monster SM, who was then in charge.

An abominable waste of $40 million – right down the gurgler.

I am soooo angry …. these incumbents are an outrage, and an insult.
M-RMay 26, 2015 at 4:40 pm

The Australian of today was born under John Howard’s aegis. Not in terms of age, but in terms of starting to become what we now are.
Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 4:41 pm

Mark Needham,

Firstly, I would appreciate it if you didn’t call me sweety even though you must obviously be a big strong clever man. (Bats eyelashes)

The few children who have been swept up in this national security blitz for talking big on the internet have been dobbed in by members of the community, not because of the billions being wasted on making Tony Abbott look tough. If you think that terrorism is more of a problem in this country than the things I listed then I would suggest it is your credibility that is in question.

As far as the kids who realise they have made a mistake and want to come home are concerned, I am fairly sure they would prefer to return to their families than come and live with me.
mars08May 26, 2015 at 5:11 pm

How can a government minister strip somebody of their citizenship without proving that they are guilty of a crime? And how can you justify exile for one type of criminal and no other?

That such foolishness is even mentioned by our politicians is solid proof of how messed up this nation has become!
Mark NeedhamMay 26, 2015 at 5:15 pm

Kaye Lee,
Sorry about the “S” word., normally, it is that or possum., and ask my wife of 47 years, if I am “Strong ‘n Clever”
OK. The 1st half, plus some, of your article is all about “returning terrorists”, Yes or No.??
That is the bit that I addressed. I agree, mostly, with the rest of the article.
But I chose to attend to the first bit. Being the first, I gave it some priority, hence giving some credibility to my “opinion”. ( That, I do give a lot of thought, to potential Terrorism, here in Australia, is maybe a subject for another time.)

So, I’ll admit that I do not have a bed or a room for a “returning terrorist”. So, I am saying “up yours Jack”, well, not really, I just pick and choose those that I extend the hand of friendship to.
However, you intimate, that contrary to ” UYJ,IAR ” you perhaps are available to put a couple up at your place, on their return.
I believe that is a fair response to the general gist of your article.
Again, is your answer Yes or No?
If your answer is No, are you saying UYJ, or choosing your friends, as I do.?
Ricardo29May 26, 2015 at 5:20 pm

Stupid facile comment Mark Needham. Well written, Kaye Lee (once again) you nail it so well.
mars08May 26, 2015 at 5:34 pm

Can you imagine what Shorten and the ALP will say about this pathetic stunt. Can you imagine…? Can you?
diannaartMay 26, 2015 at 5:36 pm

Great writing (again) Kaye Lee.

To Mark Needham – I would rather find room in my home for some frightened kids than any internet-trolls or, for that matter, creaky, old in mind and in time, men.
Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 5:39 pm

If I was your wife then perhaps I wouldn’t object to being called “sweety” Mark. As we do not know each other, it is dismissive at best.

I have spent my adult life helping troubled teenagers in various different capacities – some of them have lived in my home. Having been a teenager myself and having raised two children and having a very large extended family, even within my own family, I know that kids make mistakes. I know that kids are vulnerable to seduction. I know the positive results that can be achieved by working with kids who have made wrong choices far outweigh the outcomes from labelling, punishing, and abandoning them. I know the heartache of parents whose kids have “gone off the rails”.

We should be asking ourselves how we have failed these kids and how we can improve. Why are they feeling alienated in their own community. Why our society is not listening and addressing the needs of our children. How much of a contributing factor is youth unemployment. How our education system is failing their needs.

I have seen kids that the “system” has written off go on to be productive contributing members of society.

Throughout history, many young men and women have gone off to war only to return disillusioned.
RosemaryJ36May 26, 2015 at 5:49 pm

If young men and boys find they move been misled by their seducers they will be the ideal people to discourage others from going down that path. A bit like AA. for jihadists.
Möbius EckoMay 26, 2015 at 5:53 pm

As well Kaye Lee the UK an others are successfully using returned young jihadists to educate and turn others away from the path they took. As is so typical of this government they want to shove everything under the carpet. As long as they and those awful refugees aren’t here they apparently aren’t a problem.
Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 6:14 pm

This country was colonised by people with serious criminal records who arrived on boats. The original citizens no doubt would have appreciated a few 747’s to send us back where we came from too.

If we have societal unrest then we should deal with it rather than exporting the problem. I am assuming the guy you went to school with is behind bars Jammy. That’s why we have laws. If the law is going to apply differently to people because of their ethnic heritage (even more than it does already) we are in a dangerous place.

Could I also point out they are talking about refusing entry to citizens of our country who are not known to have committed a specific crime. If there is evidence of crime then they should be tried here as Australian citizens under Australian law.
Andreas BimbaMay 26, 2015 at 6:21 pm

The more you make society like a dog eat dog jungle, the more aggressive the animals become, BY NECESSITY. The strongest in the jungle are feared and respected, the kind and compassionate are eaten. Neo-liberalism is self generating and can be defined as a positive feedback system, the worse things get, the more it is supported and of course a complicit mass media and a dysfunctional democratic process helps.

The solution:
We all find ways to reach and inform others such that a sufficient portion of the electorate votes for ethical and competent political parties and representatives.

Is it going to happen any time soon, probably not. Will it ever happen. Maybe. What’s more likely: (a) things basically continue as they are with the gradual erosion of our economic equity, civil liberties and democratic power or (b) constructive evolution or (c) destructive revolution?

Place your bets but I hope its (b).
mars08May 26, 2015 at 6:22 pm

David Hicks was found guilty in a rigged military trial… and he did not lose his citizenship. Now the government wants to exile Australian citizens without any proof at all? When the hell has happened to us?
Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 6:40 pm

“a loathing of the lives and values of normal Australians”

If I deplored the behaviour of “normal Australians” at the Cronulla riots should I be deported?

If I hate “biffo” in the rugby or sledging in the cricket should I be deported? Or if more agree with me, should Tony Abbott, he of legendary prowess in biffo and sledging, be the one whose citizenship is revoked? I was born here so surely he should be the one to go?

If I would rather eat oysters and drink champagne than have a pie floater and a beer should I be deported?

Could you define for me the life and values of a normal Australian?
stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 6:47 pm

None of that rational stuff like every culture is statistically similar in the percentage of personality types so good old Australia will export its problems while rewarding its greedy corporate and finical elites who willingly subjugate the poor and underprivileged. One group are quite mad and require some sort of helpful rehabilitation to diffuse radical terrorist tendencies while the other legally terrorise the poor and disenfranchised.

While a good portion of the public, as usual, fall for the great deflection and fear mongering of the oligarchic elites.

Mind you hypocrisy is their modus operandi.
corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 6:49 pm

Kaye Lee,
I confess limited sympathy for those who choose to travel halfway around the world to join the daesh or similar, whatever the psychology behind such a choice. Those who would voluntarily seek to participate in aggressive atrocity in the name of enforcing a twisted form of fanatical theology seem no loss to the society I would prefer. “Phuq you jack” kicks in somewhere for everyone.
Apart from that, I agree with the rest of the points raised in your article.
crypt0May 26, 2015 at 6:50 pm

Why indeed, Kaye? why indeed.
Because this is how it is here in Australia these days… as you said …
But a warning to Jack and his “friend” …
In the first budget it became obvious that abbott and co. were out to get everyone (except of course the big end of town) so their popularity waned alarmingly.
The 2nd budget is less obvious, and the approach is pick them off one at a time. So the average (unaffected so far) citizen thinks … “I’m alright, f0ck you, Jack ” So the polls improve.
I suspect the result of all this will be a second term for abbott and co. and they will then be able to do their worst with little further interruption, save for , hopefully, the Senate.
We don’t need Islamic terrorists; the “land of the fair go” is being destroyed from within.
stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 6:50 pm

Jammy piss off you foolish demented troll.
stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 6:52 pm

Corvus shipping them around the planet is no solution.

That is how ISIS survives.
Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 6:59 pm

“It’s going to stay just the way it is, because it works.”

Works for who? How far does your vision extend? What are we doing to help the global refugee crisis?

cb,

Look at the ages of the people travelling to join up. I have no sympathy for violence of any description and will not tolerate it in any situation I can personally influence. I also have a great deal of anger towards the arms-length arms manufacturers that are profiting from supplying children with guns and bombs.
corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 7:05 pm

stephentardrew,
I have no solution to any of it beyond discouraging the causes. I just have a very strong rational dislike of violent religious fundamentalism. Prejudice of mine.
Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 7:05 pm

“we should not let in so many problems in the first place”

A good reason to not be so quick to sign free trade agreements with ISDR clauses or to sign approvals for developments that insist on importing their own labour and using their own equipment and materials or to source our defence equipment from nations who refuse to share the technology.
diannaartMay 26, 2015 at 7:09 pm

Interesting thoughts, Andreas.

I do, very much, hope it is (b).

As an individual who tends to “fear and hate” the bully rather than “respect”, have bought myself a world of pain throughout my life, while mostly “kind and compassionate” when I have run out of options I will fight back – by any means I can. The bully forgets, that eventually their victims will not tolerate any more B/S.

I do not believe in violence, however, self preservation is something else, plus we have the majority.
stephentardrewMay 26, 2015 at 7:10 pm

Spot on Kaye.
corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 7:18 pm

On the subject of “keeping them out”, I wish a more than measly fraction of the resource directed towards these “humanitarian airdrops” of military ordnance halfway around the world (which helped stir up these wanna-be heroes [aka; stoopid little phuqqers] in the first place) had been deployed towards combating one of the actual enemy invaders marching across our soil and truly destroying our Australian way of life(e.g, fire-ants[Solenopsis invicta], aggressive little turds who hurt like all phuq!).
Kaye LeeMay 26, 2015 at 7:20 pm

Your vision extends as far as Perth yet you castigated us for our lack of knowledge of how the Forex and commodity markets work. It seems to me you are the quintessential example of the topic of this article Jammy – so much so I am wondering if you are deliberately playing the straight man. It was the line about “deluded University grads” that made me realise you have to be taking the piss. No-one can be that much of a stereotype.
crypt0May 26, 2015 at 7:28 pm

Do not feed the troll … you know who I mean.
Do not even acknowledge it’s existence.
Just leave it to talk to itself.
corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 7:36 pm

Kaye Lee,
I know you love debating, but that one is halfway between a hole in the desert eating rat-meat and tinned beans, and stuck on a throbbing nuclear sub with a bunch of randy seamen(although it does know how to altar it’s alters).
ZathrasMay 26, 2015 at 7:57 pm

The chant of the true Conservative used to be –

“Whaddawe want?”
“Gradual Change!”
“When do we want it?
“All in Good Time!”

Now it’s become that of the Neo-Cons-

“Whaddawe want?”
“Everything!”
“When do we want it?”
“Now!”

Imagine giving the undeserving poor the rich man’s money?
It belongs to him and he will get it all eventually.

Meanwhile the rest of us are besotted with making untold riches from Real Estate (it used to be the Share Market) and all want a piece of the action and no longer care how we get it.

The Greed is Good ethos is alive and well in Australia and we are more interested in TV shows about home renovation and cooking than what’s happening on our own doorstep.

How did we come to this?
PhiMay 26, 2015 at 8:06 pm

Good article Kaye Lee – food for thought indeed.

Not sure of the value of engaging the trolls when there is so much more to be gained by debating with sane minds.

The more people who engage with the trolls, the less interesting the comments section becomes. Of course it’s likely that some of these are paid right wing trolls whose job is to disrupt debate. I think engaging with them is not in the interests of this extremely good independent media site.

Once I’ve identified a troll I can skip all their future posts leaving them to float off into the ether. I can’t be tempted to react to what I have not read. It’s a disciplined but satisfying way of detaching from the opinions of idiots.
mars08May 26, 2015 at 8:08 pm

Surely…. if we are going to abandon the silly youngsters who went o/s to join ISIS … we should also be prosecuting the fools who helped establish and support it…. no matter who or where they are … http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216
DavidMay 26, 2015 at 8:24 pm

@Phi..hear hear 100% hear hear re trolls
crypt0May 26, 2015 at 8:27 pm

mars … it’s a great idea and I suspect it will never happen.
It’s like governments never start an enquiry unless they (think they) know what will be uncovered.
In this case that which might be uncovered could never be allowed to see the light of day.
ChopperMay 26, 2015 at 8:28 pm

“If I deplored the behaviour of “normal Australians” at the Cronulla riots should I be deported?

If I hate “biffo” in the rugby or sledging in the cricket should I be deported? Or if more agree with me, should Tony Abbott, he of legendary prowess in biffo and sledging, be the one whose citizenship is revoked? I was born here so surely he should be the one to go?

If I would rather eat oysters and drink champagne than have a pie floater and a beer should I be deported?

Could you define for me the life and values of a normal Australian?”

Kaye Lee its very simple. If you are not a citizen by birth rights and have been given citizenship through migration – you can lose that citizenship if you perform certain crimes in the country (though that’s only happened a handful of times in history) or in another country. When you go for citizenship you vow to uphold values. Once it’s granted, it doesn’t mean you can dismiss those values and expect the same welfare cheque. The risk is you will be sent back where you came from – because you do not value the gift of Australian citizenship.

You have missed the point, as always. I would also be deporting the parents of these kids, because its not the governments job to look after them – its theirs. I know the left feel like its everyone else’s job to look after you…that’s why we have a conservative government. It’s thankfully a minority view point. Australia is such a great place because we don’t pander to a minority view point.
Möbius EckoMay 26, 2015 at 8:41 pm

We have a conservative government because they lied and deceived their way into government, aided and abetted by the media. Since then they have broken promise after promise, and back flipped more times than an Olympic gymnast, even taking up left wing progressive policies.
corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 8:43 pm

Maybe we should also consider measures to deport, jail, cut the benefits of or fine the parents of any citizen, new or other, committing a serious enough crime to warrant incarceration, as they had clearly failed in their duty to raise to raise what our accepted national values would call a moral and ethical citizen.
Whaddya reckon, Chop?
Möbius EckoMay 26, 2015 at 8:51 pm

As Abbott is a dual citizen, past vandal, prone to violence, a rorter and worst of all an economic migrant, maybe he should have his Australian citizenship revoked.
ChopperMay 26, 2015 at 9:35 pm

Corvus – I do entirely think that parents should wear the responsibility of their childrens actions. If they have citizenship from birth though….I think their punishment should be to have any benefits cut immediately. You cant deport them… Cause you know…theres a thing called law…and the law is if you are a citizen by birth you cant actually lose it, because this is their home. I’m all for Aussies who live abroad being sent back here if they commit crimes.

Mobius – Abbott has never been convicted of anything – so what’s your point? There’s a difference between someone who punches someone at uni and is never charged with anything, to someone who supports an anti western mob and joins them to wilfully kill people. Though your arguments fall flat I guess without ridiculous comparisons.
corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 9:39 pm

Chopper,
Surprisingly fair answer.
mars08May 26, 2015 at 9:44 pm

“I do entirely think that parents should wear the responsibility of their childrens actions. If they have citizenship from birth though….I think their punishment should be to have any benefits cut immediately…”

Let’s start with Schapelle Corby
Annie BMay 26, 2015 at 10:00 pm

@ stephentardrew – re. your comment –

” One group are quite mad and require some sort of helpful rehabilitation to diffuse radical terrorist tendencies while the other legally terrorise the poor and disenfranchised.”

Absolutely. Spot on. …. Big question – is this government acting in ANY way, in the proper way, according to the Constitution ? … Can they just ‘pronounce’ without any correct parliamentary procedure – H of R, and then the Senate …. anything they want ? …. Their recent ‘through regulation’ acts, doing what they like, when they like – can that not be stopped or at least queried ? …….. And who queries it ?

Don’t see it happening myself. …. They are waaaay out of control….. All acting like little Hitler clones.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

@ Andreas Bimba ….

Your post spoke a great deal. Much sense.

“The more you make society like a dog eat dog jungle, the more aggressive the animals become, BY NECESSITY. The strongest in the jungle are feared and respected, the kind and compassionate are eaten. “

This is true – in the jungle, in nature. …. I thought perhaps we were a little above the laws of the jungle, but perhaps we are not – when faced with a rabid, fascist mob of rule. … It tends to have a roll-on effect … Just hope I am wrong about that.

I too hope that your option (b) triumphs.

…….

@ diannaart ….. great comment – agree entirely. …. Self-preservation a necessity – absolutely.
Annie BMay 26, 2015 at 10:10 pm

@ Pijama Mulch …

” I don’t really care about the world’s refugees ” …. surprise, surprise – who would’ve thunk it !! …. AND

” My vision stretches about as far as Perth.” …. which is further than I would have expected. Figured it’d be more like about 12 metres from wherever you live, exist ? …. AND –

” I’m more a singularity.” …. oh INDEED you are, never a truer word spoken. !!! Out of the loop, big time.

For a weirdly brief moment, I thought you might have been contributing to comments, in a rational manner …. then you reverted to type. ….. hmmm. … Still the troll extraordinaire. !! eh ?

Your reply to me, ( the A_B bit ) was ludicrous, empty, and of course just a stir. Empty, because YOU are empty and devoid of any empathy, feeling or inclination to be a contributor to conversation, or to anything that resembles a positive attitude. … So – go swim around a bit more in your own effluent. … because that’s all that can be seen here, from you. …. a load of sh*te.

……

Phi – I felt obliged to have one last go – but it IS my last. The bod permanently in pyjamas ( hope he / she changes them once in a while ) …. can go get you-know-what’d from here on in. …. Phffft to him/her …. !
corvusboreuscorvus boreusMay 26, 2015 at 10:52 pm

A goodnight for all who still try to give a phuq ( 😉 K.L.).

There is a war going on for your mind.
If you are thinking, you are winning.
John KellyMay 26, 2015 at 11:11 pm

Incredibly, the Australian Constitution does not clearly define what an Australian citizen is, or what their rights are. The matter has been left to the legislators. Even someone born here does not have automatic right of citizenship. What a chaotic mess our forefathers left.
John KellyMay 26, 2015 at 11:17 pm

Here’s a link to explain it all:
http://guides.naa.gov.au/citizenship/chapter1/citizenship-australia.aspx
Kaye LeeMay 27, 2015 at 8:22 am

I note Philip Ruddock has been appointed special envoy for citizenship and community engagement. Let’s hope he does a bit better than our Operation Sovereign Borders special envoy, Jim Molan, who was given over a million bucks to do nothing and whose position was quietly dropped in the budget.

To say we are getting a bit top heavy on national security is an understatement. We have the Prime Minister, Defence Chief reporting to Kevin Andrews, ASIO responsible to George Brandis, ASIS, the Defence Signals Directorate, the National Security Advisor, the Justice Minister who is doubling as Minister assisting the Prime Minister on Counter Terrorism, Ruddock as special envoy, National Counter-Terrorism Co-ordinator, Greg Moriarty, the AFP, Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells who will “develop better relations with community leaders and tackle the appeal of jihadist teaching”, oh and Peter Dutton who frighteningly has sole authority to decide people’s fate.

That’s a hell of a lot of man (and token woman) power.
townsvilleblogMay 27, 2015 at 9:14 am

Aussies never used to ‘dob’ on other Aussies either, not until the yankee philosophy invaded our country with their TV shows showing that sort of behaviour and the Aussie followed like sheep. We have seen the first ‘yankized’ budget last year and it didn’t go over too well, however the ‘horror’ parts are back this year hidden behind some more civilized policy, but it’s still there. When will Australians shake off their apathy and stand to protest in the streets about this Prince and Pauper approach from this extremist LNP government?
townsvilleblogMay 27, 2015 at 9:24 am

Kaye, I notice that you have attracted a couple of spoilers Mark Needham and Jammy March, I have noticed their puerile intervention on other AIMS blogs. A very sad indictment on the tories.
Mark NeedhamMay 27, 2015 at 10:16 am

K.L
Chee, it sure is good to be able to have a reasonable conversation here.
You know what I meant, by my question. You will not be able to guarantee the sensible actions of any returnee.
But, let’s get ’em back in, and set ’em loose, with their own family. Of course there will be no problem. Like our “released pedophiles” in the suburbs, nothing to worry about at all.
Good Article, Kaye Lee, good article.

Just not much practical thought, has gone into it.
Ah well.
stephentardrewMay 27, 2015 at 10:40 am

townsvilleblog: This is an incredibly important issue.

One of the implications of imported US crap TV is the visceral, nasty, unthinking, irrational application of victim blame and continual retribution rather than rehabilitation. Law and Order took this type of radical right wing diatribe to new depths. The US right is infiltrating cultures world wide with its judgment, blame, retribution and intolerance in the name of the greatest (Choke) Nation (read sycophants) on earth. This is not to denigrate all US citizens but to point out the immense power of the owners of wealth and media. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I wonder if there has been an academic sociological study into the implications of this sort of devious underhanded manipulation of attitudes world wide. Who needs religion when TV programing is so insidiously open to outright subversive messaging.

Just have to look at the damage the voice of few global warming deniers can have when they own the medium and the message (Marshal McLuhan).

It has been over twenty years of denial.

This really is a serious problems.

Just look at the lying conniving L-NP and their success at fooling over half of the nation.

In fact we progressives are not over-reacting.

If anything we have been neutered for too long.
Kaye LeeMay 27, 2015 at 10:41 am

I cannot guarantee the sensible actions of any other person Mark but I can speak with a great deal of experience in helping troubled teenagers and I can assure you that abandoning them is the worst thing we could do.

Are you equally concerned about the number of rapists who reoffend? About serial domestic violence? Can you guarantee they will behave “sensibly”?

Not everyone can be saved but our children are susceptible to seduction and we should do more to protect them. We have people well-trained to assist with rehabilitation and social cohesion. We also have laws to protect us and a judicial system to deal with criminals. As I said before, if there is evidence of criminal activity then prosecute them.
stephentardrewMay 27, 2015 at 11:06 am

As an ex youth worker I totally agree with you Kaye. These kids are invariably the product of dysfunctional families and ideologies and to blame them is to miss the causal contingencies, both physical-hereditary and sociological, that lead to disturbed lives.

The latest research into nature/nurture supports Polin’s thirty year old meta-analysis of nature nurture demonstrating a near fifty fifty influence of each. The problem, as always, is to determine which is the primary influence upon dysfunctional behaviour.

How the hell do you get people to understand non-emotional, unattached rational analysis of the causal facts.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-05-nature-nurture-results-twins-meta-study.html
mars08May 27, 2015 at 11:28 am

stephentardrew:

As an ex youth worker I totally agree with you Kaye. These kids are invariably the product of dysfunctional families and ideologies…

And the failed ideologies are shaped and driven by….?
Mark NeedhamMay 27, 2015 at 12:34 pm

Kaye Lee.

Yeah, like most conversations, bit hard over the web.

I am just not fussed, with people, who have made a decision to fight the good fight, with ISIS, and then return home. Really not sure where their head is going to turn next., and not that happy, about them running around the streets either.
At least, it is Good, that we can have this conversation, without the usual, “web snarly comment”
Thank you, Kaye Lee.
KyranMay 27, 2015 at 1:32 pm

There were some recent announcements by our alleged leaders and their minions (the agencies committed to our security) regarding the number of terrorist attacks that have been averted due to their wonderful vigilance. I haven’t been able to find the articles, but the attacks could be counted on your fingers, and the terrorists were kids who appear to have craved notoriety. On my recollection, ALL were ‘detected’ by tip off’s from concerned community and family members. The very communities our alleged leaders insist on demonising. As always, Ms Lee, a read well worth it. The paragraph most worth repeating, for me;
“Why, then, do we accept without question the notion that the threat of terrorism now necessitates a fundamental shift in the powers we allow the state, in a way that would never have been politically palatable during eras in which political violence was far more common?”
Whilst the article demonstrates the wasted money, particularly in relation to far more significant domestic threats, it is the loss of the ‘power of the people’ to the ‘power of the state’ that will hang like a yoke on our children. I really hope it doesn’t come to pass. Take care
jimhazMay 27, 2015 at 1:38 pm

Yeah, removing citizenship is not a responsible policy.

Speaking of irresponsible policies, here is one of mine! – Not letting more muslims immigrate for the next 5 years would be a policy I would introduce (without ever publicly recognising it as a policy), regardless of the international cost.

I’m sick of the dumbing down of Australia and strictly religious people are the dumbest of all. Islam has no external grace whatsoever (its all internal self-absorption and men playing power games over each other). At least the Christians have a counterweight of helping others – one does not see that in Islam. Islam also has no true leadership group and this means the rabid can make up whatever they want.

The problem is that it will take far too long for this religion to evolve modern values, making it not work the grief of the cultural friction.
Isolating the existing muslims in Australia from the massive islamic troubles overseas (in not importing the face-to-face stories and troublemakers), will give them a chance to open up, to lessen the negative impact of the religion.
Sad sackMay 27, 2015 at 3:40 pm

Is there a memory of a political group who trained school kids to be the eyes and ears of the police?
corvus boreusJune 4, 2015 at 7:59 pm

The latest “phuq you, Jack, I’m allright” award goes to (once again) Antony Abbott for stating that he liked the idea of rising house prices because he was already a home-owner.
‘Phuq ’em, I already got mine’.
Annie BJune 4, 2015 at 10:56 pm

corvus boreus ? ….. when the hell did he deliver THAT bit of nasty ?

How nice.
How delightful.
How diplomatic.
How bloody insulting.
What leadership !!! 🙁
How …. ghastly.

I could go on, but won’t.

………..

It has just occurred to me, while typing the above, that we often advise one another, to take no notice of trolls and trolling on this website.

The biggest, nastiest troll of the lot is the mean minded Anthony …. he uses the MSM for his intrusive and stirring, his own brand of trolling.

So – perhaps we should just ignore him altogether – never ever mention his name ( he would NOT enjoy that ) …. and get on with some more of the superb ideas that come up on this site – discuss ways and means of contributing to replenish and put back in order, the Australia we all know and love.

( and no-one could suggest, that the top ( heavy ) mob in Canberra, don’t have their little spies out and about in cyberspace, busily checking all independent media these days – would love a good bet on it ).
corvus boreusJune 5, 2015 at 6:23 am

Annie B,
TA uttered this gem in QT on Monday, responding to a question regarding concerns raised by the Reserve bank about ballooning house prices; “As someone who, along with the bank, owns a house in Sydney I do hope our housing prices are increasing,”
darrel nayJune 5, 2015 at 6:34 am

Increasing prices are one thing but ballooning prices are another thing altogether. Many working Australians (ie. our children) will never be able to afford a house in this country – is this healthy? If you look at the studies you will find that the Banksters have shovelled money into housing to force prices up and you can bet they will pull the rug out soon – we are already seeing foreign corporations buying up retail property.

Cheers

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