You can’t fight an ideological war by shutting physical borders
As news came out yesterday evening that a Syrian refugee passport was found next to one of the terrorists in the Paris attacks on Friday, predictably the media pounced, and all the right wing refugee-demonisers came out in force. Our very own stop-the-boats-fetishest, Tony Abbott, spoke with his media team – the Daily Terrorgraph, sorry Daily Telegraph – who today published an article with the following headline:
“Former PM Tony Abbott warned IS terrorists are hiding in a flood of refugees”
(Daily Telegraph – November 15, 2015)
And Abbott wasn’t the only one. US Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz came out on his personal blog yesterday saying:
“We need to immediately declare a halt to any plans to bring refugees that may have been infiltrated by ISIS to the United States.” Ted Cruz – November 14, 2015
Never mind that the French government has yet to validate that the terrorist was the actual owner of the Syrian passport. Never mind that at least one of the other terrorists was a French national, and that his father and brother have been arrested. Never mind that the perpetrators of the Charlie Hebdo attacks earlier this year were both born in France. And even more importantly – never mind that the terrorists perpetrating these attacks are the same people that refugees are fleeing from because they too, have been victims of these terrorist groups.
Clearly none of these actual facts matter to the likes of Abbott and Cruz. According to their logic, this attack could have been prevented if only Europe had stopped the boats, had forced tens of thousands of refugees to stay and face almost certain death at home or risk starvation in the already overcrowded refugee camps along the borders of their home countries.
The idiocy of this proclamation is astounding. It reflects the fact that many of our political leaders – and those in the media – have yet to grasp the fact that this is an ideological war being fought in an age where there are no borders around information, no borders around ideologies.
Prior to the advent of new communications technologies last century, governments could – at least in theory – stop information flows across borders since information had to be physically carried across by a person (whether as a book, document or a an idea in someone’s head). But in this century, people don’t have to connect in a physical space – they can connect in cyber space. Ideologies can cross any border they like with no passport, no visa, no stops.
Suggesting that having stronger physical borders will have any impact on the battle against these horrific terror attacks, is the equivalent of suggesting that you could stop flood waters from overflowing by putting up a sign instructing them not to.
The reality is that we are living in a different time – a time where there are no borders around ideologies. Strategies that focus on defeating terrorists groups with traditional warfare strategies alone are doomed to fail as they don’t take into account that at its core, the war against these groups is not a physical battle, it’s an ideological one. And ideological battles are not won and lost on battlefields or at borders, they are won and lost in people’s hearts and minds.
This article was originally published on ProgressiveConversation.
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Thank you Kate. As always, I find myself in total agreement with your perceptive article. We need better ideas and there are so many people offering them. How do we make politicians listen to us rather than retired generals who are lining up to give their opinions in the media?
Right back at you Kaye 🙂
I don’t know the answer except to keep putting the ideas out there, and hope that one day, if we scatter enough seeds, one or two of them will sprout and grow 🙂
It’s good to see some sensible, reasoned voices on this. Many places it has degenerated into a crazed hate-fest. including our badly, cynical Prime Minister with his “….truthfully the work of the devil” type comments. Comments that resonate with many of the easily duped in our community. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/paris-attacks-malcolm-turnbull-calls-the-paris-assault-the-work-of-the-devil-20151114-gkz1dy.html
I think he may turn out to be worse than Abbott because he is being given credibility that Abbott could never achieve.
“But in this century, people don’t have to connect in a physical space – they can connect in cyber space. Ideologies can cross any border they like with no passport, no visa, no stops.” – I am still confused as to why twitter is not shutting down IS accounts more quickly (or allowing IS supporters to have locked accounts). IS accounts praising the attacks, encouraging ‘lone wolf’ attacks, suicide martyrdom and warning/boasting of other imminent attacks. These accounts are not hard to find.
New Matilda’s Chris Graham has an article with an encouraging tone and point of view. Encouraging in a ‘some faith in humanity’ kind of way. https://newmatilda.com/2015/11/14/paris-attacks-highlight-western-vulnerability-and-our-selective-grief-and-outrage/
Abbott is definitely channeling John Howard, who said the same thing after 9/11 in an interview on ’60 Minutes’. It was possible that there were terrorists on those damn boats!
Chris – the New Matilda article is an interesting one. To me it highlights how truly tribal we all still really are. We perceive the ‘French’ as being part of the ‘West’ and they are our allies – so an attack against them is against us. But people outside our tribe – the scale seems to have to be larger for us to care. It’s quite disturbing.
Agree Michael – although I have to say I was reluctant to write an article with Abbott’s name in it. Howard was PM when he made his statement. Abbott seems to forget that he’s a backbencher now and as such should fade into the political background.
Because it’s important that an Islamic terrorist have his passport when he goes on a rampage. Part of the standard kit, don’t you know…
Automatic weapon, check… ammunition, check… pistol, check… suicide vest, check… Car keys, breath mints, iPod… passport. Passport. Ummm passport? Phil, Barry… have you seen my damn passport? Oh this is awkward… I had it yesterday..
I know Mars. I didn’t write the conspiracy theory angle – but you DO have to wonder don’t you?
Turnbull is flagging the possibility of Australian troops being sent into Syria now. As peacekeepers in a place where there is no peace, and we are yet to be invited. Bill Shorten’s response was fairly good and it seemed obvious it was something he would be very uncomfortable with. I can’t find it so far but it said something along the lines of…’ We can’t really send peacekeepers without a peace agreement, peace plan or peace treaty. Peacekeepers would be years away yet’ – That is a very bodgey quote from memory of what I heard on the radio out in the garden….so don’t quote me exactly.
Turnbull is also claiming some people are more “Godless” than others. Religious vilification much ? I can find a bit of LOL in there too…
The Kaye’s & Kate’s are awesome and to borrow a phrase from Bob Ellis “perhaps you disagree”.
Completely agree and astonished that the French could determine so quickly that he was a refugee, Perhaps he had refugee tattooed on his head. I’m not up with the colours of the French govt but I would hazard a guess they are conservative.
Chris – I’m at a bit of a loss to understand the Syrian peacetalks in Vienna actually. I mean, how do you hold peacetalks when none of the key combatants are actually there? What exactly are they really going to achieve? Agree that there should be peace in Syria? I think they should really be called wartalks – which is far more likely what they are. K
At this stage, any ‘peace talks’ would be along the lines of dividing the spoils and who gets to select the puppet government…
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.
I don’t know either Kate and the reporting on Vienna peace talks seems fairly scant. We probably won’t find out ’til it happens. The worrying thing is both the US and Russia have conducted submarine launched ICBM tests in the last week. They were both done at night to maximize the spectacle of the thing. Scary grandstanding and nothing more i hope…..the ‘Cold War’ was supposed to be over.
Bobrafto – the French government are supposedly the socialist party but French socialist leaders or leadership candidates all seem to be millionaires from rich families. I suspect they have more in common with the National Party here….agrarian socialists of the landed gentry, but I know very little of French politics. However, Karl Lagerfeld has slammed the French president as “an imbecile” whose “disastrous” policies “will drive the rich out of France”. http://www.france24.com/en/20121019-karl-lagerfeld-calls-francois-hollande-imbecile-rich-disaster-taxes-france-marie-claire
He is probably right about the imbecile thing….
So it’s safe to say regardless of left or right, power is to be leveraged and retained at whatever cost.
Could be a play!
from ABC newsmail
…..Greek police said one and perhaps two of the assailants had registered as refugees with Greek authorities earlier this year.
A Syrian passport was found near the body of one of the terrorists who detonated a bomb outside gate D of the Stade de France, killing himself and a passerby.
Greek officials confirmed the passport had been used by its owner to pass through the island of Leros near the coast of Turkey on October 3.
The authenticity of the passport was being checked, but its discovery indicates a possible Syrian connection in the violence.
Any identity documents and fingerprint records would have to be matched with the remains of the actual attackers to establish whether they passed through Greece posing as refugees, or perhaps bought or stole passports along the way.
I dont buy the false flag – though it is possible. My spin is that suicide bombers live in wonderland – they are religious romantics. Fanatics. False flags are generally done by people who leave bombs and run. They want to take the cash and live to spend up.. Don’t be naïve in thinking that all refugees are cool – they aren’t. And I would argue catching a leaky boat to Australia is qualitatively different to traveling overland from Turkey into Europe. I said all this before and predicted this would happen. It’s not rocket science. And please forget the Socialists in France being progressive – they aren’t. Have you forgotten what they did in Libya and Mali so soon? The so called left parties are all right.
Keeping people trapped inside borders will force more of them to choose a side for their own survival.
hey I’ve got a better idea – stop arming terrorists to do your dirty work and start jailing those that do.
@Matthew Osborne … agree
@Mathew Oborne give the terrorist more forced recruits including child soldiers.
The greatest hurdle facing the Syrian peace talks is that they can’t agree on who are legitimate opposition and who are terrorists.
I too think the Syrian passport is a red herring. Why would you have your passport with you when carrying out acts of terrorism? Not being identified would be important if you were captured. But having some(false) evidence to stir up further trouble, that makes sense. Adding to the fear felt by some French people of migrants coming in at the moment by indicating that this bombing etc is related to such people, that makes sense too.
Why has Paris been the focus of this attack anyway – could it be that with many world leaders and decision makers being about to get together for the climate conference, IS perceives that their actions will be particularly noted and disruptive.
mark delmegeNovember 15, 2015 at 6:03 pm
hey I’ve got a better idea – stop arming terrorists to do your dirty work and start jailing those that do.
How are you going to jail the entire White House?
Why has Paris been the focus of this attack anyway – could it be that with many world leaders and decision makers being about to get together for the climate conference, IS perceives that their actions will be particularly noted and disruptive.
I think your onto something there. I’ve always had the view that terrorists get a bigger bang in Europe and US, cos that’s where the power is and the attention it brings and that’s why Australia is overlooked and we can to a certain degree consider ourselves lucky to be located on the other side of the world.
And it defies logic when high profile cities of London and Paris are in close proximity why a suicide bomber would attempt to get on a boat to get a bang here.
What Merkel in Germany and Lofven in Sweden have done in their countries is “National Suicide”. Why would you let thousands of Muslim migrants and mostly young men into your country with no security checks! Do they care about the security of their women and girls let alone the rest of their people? Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe and the statistics are there proving a direct link to migration but the media just like in Australia is tightly controlled in order for the media whores to propagate the narrative of lies. PC (political correctness) prevents many from saying what they want but the reality is that their is a social engineering program going on in Europe and other western countries like OZ and Jewish Zionist racial supremacists and their vesty men are behind it, They are the money men and puppeteers of Obama, Cameron, Merkel, Lofven and Turnbull. Communism, Socialism, Cultural Marxism and the “progressive” left are all Jewry programs and the sooner we all realise that the better. A war between Muslims and Christians is in their interest! The geopolitical and other interests in blogs like this are mostly mainstream and the truth is nowhere to be found. We need to understand that deception and lies by Government are the norm and they no longer represent the interests of the people but vested interest.I don’t have a racist bone in my body but you can bang on about borders and tolerance but the facts are that multiculturalism should not be at the expense of the native indigenous people. OZ is a stolen country where this fact has never been addressed and WWI and WWII were all about the demise of Germany and its people from rising up to maintain the British Empire and the lies start when you enter pre-school. Cultural diversity is a thing of beauty and it does mean protecting the borders of your country but it also has responsibility to assist others much less fortunate. Make of this vid what you will:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foHFuFMNij4
and the truth is nowhere to be found.
Truth can be found in the American foreign policy since WW2.
Interesting article and subsequent comments
Personally the west with Russia, should occupy Seria, Iraq and Afganistan, it will mean the fight is taken to their country, the population could be given x weeks to register themselves as citizens and anyone not found with registration papers are emmediately incarcerated untill their bonifides are established.
We could occupy under the flag of he UN, yes it will be for 50 or a hundred years but it will contain the problem in those countries.
Next every person in the west must register as a citizen, no papers means incarceration untill bonifides are established.
Yes it is war – we are at war – and that means war footing has to imposed in the west.
it may mean that freedoms we have become to see as normal are tested but to be honest I cannot see how else we can stop this bloodshed of innocents, unless we take on the war time restrictions to freedom reminisant of the second workd waŕ.
Its either that or let these people defeat us with our own freedom which they use to keep hitting us, but which will disapear under the yoke of totalitarianism.
Yes quiet right bobrafto, John Pilger was one of the best at documenting American foreign policy/hegemony. I always remember Pilger’s story about how he was standing on a hill with the U.S. military about to go into a Vietnamese village and the Commander got on the loud speaker “we have candy and tooth brushes’ after no response ” look you f*cking gooks come out or we will burn your village”! And once again built on the Gulf of Tonkin lie with Kissinger organising loans to Russia to supply weapons to the North Vietnam to kill American boys. This is a powerful interview and the only one left on the net:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvEBsOnhSHE
You have been radicalized.
Now now, mars. Stephengb2014 is allowed to state his mind, but hopefully some reasoned responses may see him leave here a bit more enlightened.
And gawd knows he needs it.
@Roswell… as a blabbering, disgusting, semiliterate dolt once said “…these people defeat us with our own freedom which they use to keep hitting us…”
stepheng is only trying to produce a solution and obviously he hasn’t given it enough thought and I would be happy to hear his solution for all the school massacres and work place massacres in the US which far exceeds Muslim terrorist deaths.
stepheng is trying to produce a half-arsed solution to a problem the only exists in his paranoid, warped, little mind!
I gathered that, but I would really like to know about his solution to the slaughter in the US.
A lot of interesting comments since I went out and articles – thanks for the links Bob.
Stephen – I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you’re not a refugee-troll like young Nev clearly is, and respond to your comment. (I have a strict don’t-feed-the-trolls policy normally – but I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, just for now.)
So that said – I don’t mean to be rude, but did you actually read the article? Unless I’ve misread your comment – you’re basically suggesting that the problem would be solved by some sort of global registration system, where we all have to prove who we are – register with the police or some other authority? Let’s assume for a second that we did this – exactly what problem would that solve?
The whole point of my article was that this is a battle of ideologies, and that you can shut as many borders as you like and require as many papers as you like, it won’t stop those ideologies from crossing borders – because people are dividing along ideological lines and NOT national lines. The Charlie Hebdo attacks were carried out by French born nationals. If France had implemented the system you suggest, and kicked out or locked up anyone without French papers, the outcome would have been exactly the same. You can make people carry as many papers as you like, but that won’t change what they think and how they feel.
“While everyone has a right to his or her opinion, the people who are informed have more of a right.”
Mars – you make a lot of sense 🙂
@Kate M…. those aren’t my words.
Now… stephengb2014 should be very careful about the twisted ideas he is trying to spread. He might get in trouble with the law.
An (in)famous politician once said:
“….it’s hard to imagine that citizens of a pluralist democracy could have succumbed to such delusions — yet clearly they have.
The Australian Government will be utterly unflinching towards anything that threatens our future as a free, fair and multicultural society; a beacon of hope and exemplar of unity-in-diversity.”
What stephengb2014 proposes clearly “threatens our future as a free, fair and multicultural society”. So, watch out!
nevk21 you wrote:
Yes and no, (but certainly simplistic nonsense) because you fail to realise that generated ‘statistics’ always depend on ‘definitions’ and in Sweden (the number one rated country in Europe in terms of gender equality) keeps redefining its definition of rape. Not that there’s anything ‘wrong’ with that but crucial if one wants to understand what is actually going on.
I have researched this and it easy to claim “simplistic nonsense” but a bit of advice I wouldn’t quote Wikipedia on anything, it is simply garbage on anything other than the official story. I am well aware of definitions but what is the definition of ANYTHING subjective! Let us be real how many sources of statistics and definition are there? One thing I can tell you is I am of Swedish heritage and what is happening in Sweden has nothing to do with gender equality and everything to do with social engineering and the demise of white Europeans.The evidence is overwhelming if you know where to find it and as I said in my post the left are deluded fools of this engineering. Wake up, cultural diversity is essential not cultural genocide that rape is an evil part of. For the record: https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/
@bobfafto…. what can I say? After over a decade of reading such idiot trash… . my tolerance is just about zero….
my tolerance is just about zero….
that was obvious and you have to excuse me for shit stirring.
nevk21, thanks for your ‘response’ and I agree to cite Wiki is always ‘problematic’. But your ‘link’ is to Muslim Statistics which quite frankly is a source of complete and absolute bullshit. But you do go on.
Congratulations, but I am not sure how that adds or detracts from your ‘point of view’, given you place so much reliance on a discredited source and my experience of the Swedish is that they are pretty reasonable people. But they also agree there are exceptions. But you do go on.
Can you define what you mean by ‘social engineering’? Can you tell me who’s doing that? Is it the ‘white Europeans’ who dominate the political institutions? And if so, then why?
Dear oh dear I just read who is ‘responsible’ as outlined in an earlier post, it’s the Jewish Zionist racial supremacists and their vesty men.
And the evidence is?.
bobrafto – Thanks for the Bob Ellis thing. I’m not sure I quite get what was going on….A play, you say ? Some of it was like reading my Guardian comments….The Syrian passport is possibly faked (the photo doesn’t match the name apparently). Some of the attackers in Paris escaped. Is being reported now (I read that in IS twitter accounts last night – they generally don’t make things up…..it’s part of their thing). As far as fixing slaughter in the US. They need to quit their mythology and get some proper education and the power imbalances need to be evened out. Even in this country there are too many people dominating the wills and aspirations of others mostly for the purposes of their own personal greed for wealth and power. There. Easy fixed. ; )
“They need to quit their mythology and get some proper education and the power imbalances need to be evened out”.
I could not disagree less.
This applies to huge swathes of the Middle-East. This applies to the US of A. This also applies to Australia.
We need to stop actively encouraging (through legal exemptions and government subsidies) the indoctrination of young minds into superstitious dogmas that disparage the female and encourage a fatalistic alienation from our present reality.
I resent lining the pockets of the AFIC Imams as deeply as I hate swelling the coffers of King’s Grammar.
“…and the demise of white Europeans”
Not just Europe but globally, and as the song suggests probably a good thing. And not just white but also dark, all being done voluntarily without any genocides, eugenics or other deliberate methods of racial manipulation.
I’ve raised this point before from a study I once read. Because of the free global movement of peoples, especially the more affluent, there’s an increasing rate of interracial marriages, partnerships and thus children, who then grow up to also engage in partnerships with other races or mixed race, and so it goes on. Of its own free and open choice, if love can be called a free choice, the white race is slowly breeding itself out of existence.
It’s Monday… I’ve been back at work for less than 2 hours… and I desperately want to go back home and hide!!!
These past few days I have been lucky enough to avoid the msm sensationalism and trivia.
This morning I have been hit by a barrage. All around me… people reading the Daily Terrorgraph, superficial morning TV chat shows, commercial radio stations… all going insane. Hysteria rules. Shallow chatter… pointless speculation. Clueless “experts”. Jingoism. Relentless chauvinism. Xenophobia.
I’m absolutely serious… The people around me are being saturated with bullshit. I want to go somewhere and hide from this madness.
What is interesting to me mars08 in all the media hyperbole, hysteria and so much bullshit is the disengagement of the people around me. It might be my small circle of friends, colleagues and places but so far none have discussed or mentioned this. TVs in public places like the restaurant I went to last night and the cafes I visited on the weekend flashing the media sensationalism were being completely ignored, and none of those on the tables around me were discussing it. Nobody at work this morning has talked about it at all.
If Turnbull wanted Australia to not let the terrorists win by our citizens getting on with their normal lives from what I observed he got what he wanted in spades.
And on that. The crap of not letting the terrorists win by changing our way of life is thwarted the moment the words are uttered as that’s exactly what governments do after each terrorist attack, change our way of life. Already a Liberal backbencher is asking that extraordinary and unaccountable power be given permanently to Dutton.
As an aside an interesting point was raised on social media re the French anti-terrorist laws, specifically to their laws in regards to electronic surveillance and the holding of personal data on their citizens, such as metadata. By that account the French government has greater powers in this area than Australia, especially in regards to the collection and retention of metadata, yet that measure did not stop these attacks. Surely that’s an argument against the retention of metadata laws but there’s no doubt it will be used to bring in even harsher retention and surveillance laws instead.
The relentless stupidity… it burns!
Some erudite commentary here… and the occasional out-of-touch-with-reality-and-inability-to-consider-topic-and-facts (nev & stephen)
I do believe….wait…. NEWSFLASH just in…. ABBOTT HAS SOLUTION TO STOP TERRORISTS:
STOP THE TERRORISTS
You heard it here first
ME… “TVs in public places like the restaurant I went to last night and the cafes I visited on the weekend flashing the media sensationalism were being completely ignored…”
Maybe we are around different crowds. Although the people I see aren’t absorbed my the hysteria… I get a different vibe. The prevailing attitude seems to be… it’s further confirmation that Muslims are sick bastards and we need to blow them all up.
Depolarisation of either side cannot occur while ISIL and Al Quada exists. Clearly it is time for the West to up the ante and put troops in to kill off ISIL.
It should occur quickly and this time Europe needs to supply more troops – they have not done enough in the past and the US is now war weary.
What we are seeing now was always destined to occur as a backward religion comes face to face with the rest of the world. Stop blaming the west for the reactions of what are ultimately extremely stupid people. The West is the catalyst, but not the foundation of this trouble.
Like some others I would like to see more emphasis on the stopping the supply of weapons – small countries like Australia and the MSM generally should be politically fighting against the US and Russia in this arena. That they do not demonstrates the great morality sickness of the developed world – unchecked capitalism regardless of long term costs.
And once ISIL has gone another group will rise and then another and then another, mostly out of those innocents who survive the attacks on ISIL. In the meantime the individual in country attacks will increase on the back of seeing so many innocent Muslims being killed in the name of getting ISIL.
Poignant story that came out of the invasion of Iraq in a father and son sitting on top of the roof of their home waving American flags in appreciation of being liberated as the troops rolled through their town. A tank opened fire on them, later claiming they saw an enemy in the building, killing the father whilst the son survived. The son went on to fight with the insurgents against the Americans.
As to stopping the weapons, you are mostly talking about Russian rifles as that’s about as sophisticated as it gets for most of it. There are so many of them out there you would have a better chance of herding millions of cats.
You wouldn’t know it from listening to the ABC but the French Government has sunk a lot of weapons and trainers into Syria to kill Syrians. But the ABC does the usual emotionalism propaganda bullshit. Its time the whole
propaganda department was sacked.
[And once ISIL has gone another group will rise and then another and then another, mostly out of those innocents who survive the attacks on ISIL]
Sure, but what else can one do? Just let them run rampant like we have been?
The lesson to learn from ISIL is to shut these groups down quickly. I do not know what the strategy was behind not doing so for ISIL, so I have assumed US war weariness together with a desire for Iraq to look after its own internal security. Or perhaps they feel it is better for a sunni-shite war to arise so they concentrate on killing each other.
Though overdone, the old curing cancer analogy first comes to mind. First one has to remove that cancer they can locate, then apply chemo afterwards to try and prevent it recurring.
[As to stopping the weapons, you are mostly talking about Russian rifles as that’s about as sophisticated as it gets for most of it]
That being the case then the superior weapons systems available to western countries shouldn’t face too difficult a time in beating the opposition, albeit that guerrilla warfare is always hard and dangerous – yet they seem to.
Hey ME… it might actually work this time. All we have to do is arm some of the indigenous groups to give it a local flavour and so it doesn’t look like a foreign invasion. And so our boys have hometown support. What could possibly go wrong?
Very simple state of play from Kate.
Yes, children. Welcome to Groundhog Day.
mark delmege – They have indeed. And IS is boasting about having captured many of them including Milan guided missiles and small arms.There have been pictures of French supported rebels with the same assault rifles as our army uses and night vision gear. France has a $9.1 billion dollar arms industry and its sales increased by about 18% last year. It is sickening that they can try and claim ‘the peace symbol’ by plonking an Eiffel tower on it. They were already conducting air strikes in Syria and are continually active militarily in Africa.
Most people don’t have a good sense of what Islam is about and you could include many Muslims in that also (although I wouldn’t try to tell anyone how to run their religion….I would tell them to just ditch it..).
Religions are designed to re- enforce ‘tribal’ connections and be resilient in the face of conquest, whether that be by force or idea. Many claim that Islam has been hijacked or that there is a fight for control of it. Christopher Hitchens was one of the first to gain publicity writing about that. There is hardly a historic or religious site in Saudi Arabia that has not been wrecked or greatly altered. This is one version of the history http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html?ir=Australia or this version http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html?ir=Australia
But as this bio points out Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab was used to divide and manipulate even in his own lifetime and is probably blamed for things that were never his intention….
This is a kind of cool short video covering some aspects of historical Islam that many don’t realize. It is an excerpt from an instructional TV series “The Western Tradition”. It was produced in Boston in 1989 and hosted by Prof. Eugen Joseph Weber.
“…but what else can one do?”
And there it is again. That pathetic, delusional, self-absorbed whine. The same pointless whine we heard in relation to Qaddafi, al-Assad and Hussein. The same dishonest argument used to create further turmoil, mistrust, hatred and suffering.
Primum non nocere
If you don’t have the skill to make something better… leave it alone.
mars, i get a 404 on that new internationalist article link you posted and thanks heaps for the jpost ‘Report: Syrian rebel forces trained by West are moving towards Damascus ‘ one I lost most of my bookmarks from that time. It was very strange, there were neocons on twitter hinting to the world about that before it happened. You may know of some of the people I mean….
Whoops I left out the link to the Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab bio….. Here tis http://www.notablebiographies.com/supp/Supplement-A-Bu-and-Obituaries/Ibn-Abd-al-Wahhab-Muhammad.html
@Chris the Greatly Dismayed… something about the newint url… I’ll post it again… http://newint.org/features/2009/10/01/blowback-extended-version/
If that doesn’t work, just cut and past the following and replace the + with a /
Yep that one worked. Thanks. Have you seen this new Nafeez Ahmed article alleging Kurdish(KRG),Turkish and British involvement in IS oil ‘smuggling’. It does say that it was commissioned by Middle East Eye though and I find they can be a bit unreliable. I probably wouldn’t say that about Nafeez though. https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/britain-s-secret-ties-to-governments-firms-facilitating-isis-oil-sales-210d21470e65#.re4xzfoon
Does anyone else see the grotesque irony of people in France and around the world PRAYING for the victims of this latest expression of religious devotion in Paris? Decades of bloody blowback against US interference and militarism has metastasised into religious duty. We must change the language we use to describe such outbursts of dogma and violence. Child-abuse is what Richard Dawkins rightly called the “religious instruction” of children. And that, surely, is how our latest “terrorists” were nurtured, with preposterous fairy tales and the demented conviction of the “chosen”… http://www.xenoxnews.com/world-news~/europa/3257-massacre-in-paris
Indeed Max or the singing of “La Marseillaise” in these circumstances. Most other times people complain about its bloodthirsty lyrics, such as “Arise children of the fatherland
The day of glory has arrived
Against us tyranny’s
Bloody standard is raised
Listen to the sound in the fields
The howling of these fearsome soldiers
They are coming into our midst
To cut the throats of your sons and consorts
To arms citizens Form your battalions
Let impure blood
Water our furrows
What do they want this horde of slaves
Of traitors and conspiratorial kings?
For whom these vile chains
These long-prepared irons?
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What methods must be taken?
It is us they dare plan
To return to the old slavery!”
The French National Anthem must also be child abuse. I was taught to sing it for a Matthew Flinders re-enactment play in early Primary school (in French of course)….
Perhaps it’s time for us to look beyond the religious motivations for the terrorist attacks. All we can be sure of is that the killers are driven by murderous rage. It’s possible that there are factors besides the devotion to a twisted version of their faith at play. I found this recent article quite interesting…
Certainly, in the case of home-grown terrorism, it can be a question of the chicken of the egg. Do young people gravitate to radical Islam because they fell isolated, hopeless, … or whatever? That is, do they accept radical Islam as a way of gaining power and giving their lives meaning? Does their sense of powerlessness lead them to embrace radical Islam?
Or is their alienation from society and willingness to kill a consequence of their conversion?
Let’s try and not get too hung up on the religious factors. Maybe, in some cases, religion just supplies the unifying “colours” for their personal campaigns.
Many just seem to like the sense of brotherhood, the sort of companionship and loyalty male gangs have and to fight for some cause (and it doesn’t matter that much what the cause is).
Now while most hard core criminal gangs will be involved in fighting and killing, not many of them will choose to do so as suicide missions, so the religion adds that factor to their desire to belong and to be valued amongst their gang. Religion takes it over and above gang behaviour. Religion creates the evil to die for and can have external ‘authority’ over what you would otherwise choose. Ordinary soldiers often have a similar mentality and can be forced into suicidal actions in the same way (eg Normany landing), where the religion is the desire to save the only culture that one knows, or if you don’t do what you are told, you will be shot by your own people.
Males are most likely very prone to this due the way our emotions involved over 500,000 years of hunting in packs.
@mars08 It is mostly political as you say. Drones, AbuGraib,Guantanamo,Syrian and other government attacks, Hijab attacks, Iraq war, reprisal killings by many groups and governments. They are particularly upset about the death of children (there’s a surprise). They justify all their extreme violence by these things and the problem that the deaths they care about are not reported at all or get scant mention anywhere….
This is what these people are saying and showing on twitter (while their accounts are still active/unsuspended).
Here is some copy/paste tweets (dunia or dunya being the material world and Kuffar being ‘unbeliever’/non-Muslim) :
Reason for attack Kuffar Mocking of our beloved prophet(saw) Airstrikes War against islam. #ParisAttacks
#Democracy has offered nothing but oppression while it was Allah who created the dunya to be ruled & co ordinated with his rules
This is wat d coalition is doin n u sympathise wit#paris
Little boy crying after after his sisters have died
You kill ours we kill yours…
15 mosques in #France have been attacked in the last 48hrs. Is this not an act of terrorism? Or does it not apply if the victims are Muslim?
151 retweets 67 likes
Let me see: Assad, marxist PKK, Shia-militias, spies,US-backed rebels, Arab-Tyrants backed Sunnis, Yep, real Muslims
Bush, Obama, Putin, Netanyahu, all of them said; “Islam is peace” but forgot to mention “Justice” so they can “peacefully” murder you. #pt
Fear has been instilled within the worthless hearts of the kuffar. May the fear only get worse InshAllah
Indian War mongering Prime Minister Narendra Modi arrives for UK visit, responsible for massacres of Muslims where thousands died & raped
Pope Francis shaken by the inhuman attack in Paris
What about Animal attacks in syria,iraq,Afghanistan…?
30 Airstrikes carried out on #Raqqah – the western coalition and Russia is pounding #Raqqah this very moment – May Allah aid the believers
French ppl paying the price 4 the irresponsible foreign policy of their government. Days of waging wars abroad without consequence are over
When the media says: “coalition strikes IS” they actually mean “IS territory” like this hospital 4 premature babies
Remember Yazidis? U know, those poor creatures fought by IS, guess what, they’re burning Muslim houses & mosques now
Medics, 2-year-old Palestinian was wounded in a Zionist military jeep hit-and-run . #IsraelIsIsis
Pray for the civilians in #Raqqah now.. #Syria #ISIS
Shooting a youth from a safe postion to defend a wall? How coward can you get? #ICC4Israel #FreePalestine
This is what the coalition soldiers write on the bombs before dropping them on civilians. “From Paris With Love”
Russians went on naked holiday trips to #Sinai & the French enjoying football matches while their governments are bombing kids in #Syria
If u want to bring peace in world , Stop Bombing on #Syria_Iraq_Palestine , Otherwise Newton’s 3rd law will be repeated on every ocassion
” we dont belong in this dunia..
Must Read: How We Underestimated #ISIS http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/11/how-we-underestimated-isil-213362
Our terrorism double standard: After Paris, let’s stop blaming Muslims and take a hard look at ourselves http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_terrorism_double_standard_after_paris_lets_stop_blaming_muslims_and_take_a_hard_look_at_ourselves/
This is what IS sympathisers and Sunnis are saying. With a couple of articles they are recommending. Some accounts just promote the new accounts of users who have been suspended. You can find all this without a twitter account.
I’m obviously not endorsing or promoting any of those accounts and I think I have been fairly careful with what I have chosen here. It is to demonstrate what some people in this circle are thinking. I do wonder why twitter can’t manage to find some of these that are obviously IS propagandisers.
The common theme is despair, defiance and anger….
@CtGD… yep… Few people will remember that the blokes who killed the soldier in London and the Boston bombers also stated that it was in retaliation for the killing of Muslim civilians by our military.
Allowing the media a d the ruling class to frame these events as being about religion…. gives our leaders the excuse to shrug their shoulders and feign confusion at the cause.
For most civilians in the Middle East it is no more about religion than the Vietnam War was about spreading global communism.
@mars The Nation article you linked is good and points out that same thing. There is nothing complicated about it. The reason people have left the moderate groups for IS in Syria is that they were misled into believing the Syrian government could be overthrown easily and that the world would come to their aid. The same as the Shia uprising in Iraq War One. They too moved on to more extreme groups resulting in the massacres of Sunnis after the fall of Saddam and clashes with the US by the Mahdi Army https://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/57 They hated the US too and did not forgive them for being left to be hunted down by Saddam’s security forces.
The US and the West have expended any political capital or influence with almost any people in the middle East and North Africa. They (we) are in the process of ‘doing over’ the Kurds as well now (and recently).
All these people have good reason to be full of hate for democracy, capitalism and the west.
Our system finds it impossible to understand this. We are perfect and beyond reproach, with our goldfish like memories and tunnel vision.
It must be ‘them’ the ‘talking heads’ say…..they have no hope….
“”But now,” says the …………,
“Now that you’re here,
the word of the Lorax seems perfectly clear.
UNLESS someone like you
cares a whole awful lot,
nothing is going to get better.
Here’s my religion…..
The KLF – The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu
Deepack And Josh & Wesz – Durty 7
@CtGD… as I recall… many many years ago, the US government produced a few studies on why so many in the Middle East were hostile towards some western nations. These studies ALL showed that it was because of foreign meddling, military occupation, lack of respect for the people and support for corrupt tyrants.
There was little or no reporting on these studies by the msm and they quickly vanished from sight.
Our fellow citizens feel justified in their bigotry and hatred… because they continue to remain unaware of what has been done in their name over the years.
Consider the national borders in the region.
Next year is the 100th anniversary of the Sykes Picot agreement.
And it’s less than a century since Sir Percy Cox, on behalf of the British government, personally drew the borders of Iraq, Syria, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The French had their hands in that deal as well.
Is it any wonder that the people of that region would rather be left alone?
“The meeting had gone on for five grueling days with no compromise in sight. So one night in late November 1922, Cox, Britain’s representative in Baghdad, summoned to his tent Sheik Abdul-Aziz ibn Saud, soon to become ruler of Saudi Arabia, to explain the facts of life as the British carved up the remnants of the defeated Ottoman empire. “It was astonishing to see [ibn Saud] being reprimanded like a naughty schoolboy by His Majesty’s High Commissioner and being told sharply that he, Sir Percy Cox, would himself decide the type and general line of the frontier,” recalled Harold Dickson, the British military attaché to the region, in his memoirs. “This ended the impasse. Ibn Saud almost broke down and pathetically remarked that Sir Percy was his father and mother who made him and raised him from nothing to the position he held and that he would surrender half his kingdom, nay the whole, if Sir Percy ordered.” Within two days, the deal was done. The modern borders of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait were established by British Imperial fiat at what became known as the Uqauir Conference.”
Chris the Greatly Dismayed Onceler I think you will find the ‘west’ aka the US will try and carve out a Kurdish state in Northern Syria – a quisling state as part of their divide and destroy strategy.
Before IS eventuated many people were talking or dreaming of a ‘Sunnistan’ . A singular religious state is a bad idea. Here is a reference from 2004 from Joseph George Caldwell PhD, a military systems analyst and ‘all round good guy’…. http://www.foundationwebsite.org/HowToWinTheWarInIraq.pdf from about 2013 it spread to every major foreign policy publication and thinktank (pretty much) and provided a template idea for Islamic State to be pasted onto.
Here’s an interesting article from a site I found that has some interesting history – about the Sauds “The Myth of Bitter Lake: Did the British Empire foist Saudi Arabia on the United States?” http://churchills-karma.com/2015/07/11/the-myth-of-bitter-lake-did-the-british-empire-foist-saudi-arabia-on-the-united-states/
And here’s the quote that got me put on pre-moderation (being censored and stuffed around) at the Guardian…
““The British government have promised that what is called the Zionist movement shall have a fair chance in this country, and the British Government will do what is necessary to secure that fair chance…We cannot tolerate the expropriation of one set of people by another or the violent trampling down of one set of national ideals for the sake of erecting another…”
Winston S. Churchill to an Arab delegation, 30 March 1921
from : http://churchills-karma.com/2011/09/01/britain%E2%80%99s-denial-of-democracy-and-the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine/
The Empire’s Balfour Declaration and the Suez Canal http://churchills-karma.com/2012/12/20/the-empires-balfour-declaration-and-the-suez-canal/
I think I found the whole article your quote comes from on this site http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/event.php?eid=395 interesting.
Makes me think of Rembetika Songs Of The Greek Underground 1925-1947
Which is excellent recordings.
And I almost forgot the Protocol of Sèvres, back in the 50s. Oh yes, the British and French had a grand old time messing around with the region!
It would have to include Northern Iraq too. I really can’t see how it could work without splitting Turkey as well. It becomes the Kurdistan (Rojava), Sunnistan (Islamic State), Shiastan (West Iran) problem with continuing conflict. The YPG are ‘quasi social democratic anarchism’….no nation state likes that. http://www.cvltnation.com/anarchists-vs-isis-the-revolution-in-syria-nobodys-talking-about/
I can only see them being screwed over….Amnesty International has suddenly found issue with all Kurdish groups it seems and they rang me about a ‘women’s rights in Iran’ campaign a couple of days ago. Maybe that is a sign ? : /
It sounds good but all regions are not homogeneous groups and it will be unlikely to end the fighting. A more federated system might be possible but it would be a case of re-organizing everyone’s borders for them. I’m sure they would love and appreciate that (along with the billions required to rebuild Syria’s infrastructure).
It is hard to see that ending better than ‘mostly leaving things where they are’. We obviously don’t get a choice in any of that anyway.
The KRG (Kurdish Regional Government) do have a Quisling quality….They caused problems for Sunnis in Iraq with their land grabbing…
Just going back to the heart of the article… lets start with the Image. Obama making nice words. Does the author or webmaster appreciate the irony here? His words and his deeds.
I wrote paragraphs on this but I’ve deleted the lot. Let me just say the ideology of Empire is the most extremist ideology today. The most dangerous, the most brutal, the most far reaching deadly ideology of the moment. It condemns whole countries and regions to catastrophe. Country after country lay in ruins because of the ideology and arrogance of empire. Everything else follows from that.
Either you get it or you don’t.
Ideology is not necessarily tied to an established religion. Got it. The current interpretation of laissez-faire economics is an ideology.
I can tell from the outset that no matter what I say you will always disagree.
Don’t you think it is a bit rich to just discredit my link to the Muslim rape stats and from a Wiki user, who says they are BS, you and only you. That was my point you use Wikipedia I use my article but there is plenty of other stats but which do you believe and you certainly can’t use any mainstream media as they have no credibility.
This is a more credible article on rape in Sweden and associated legislation around what constitutes rape etc but Oh they don’t record the ethnic background of the offender, no surprise there, we don’t want the truth getting out do we. BUT read the second half of the article Denmark does where more than half of rapes were committed by men of immigrant background and 21 Swedish reports confirm a relationship to migration and increase in rape in Sweden.
I thought it might have been obvious that my comment about my Swedish heritage meant I have a vested interest in what is happening in Sweden but apparently not and only attracted a smart arse comment from you.
By social engineering I mean there is an agenda by government and the government puppeteers to mould an attitude of fear in the society by carrying out false flag attacks and funding and creating wars in places like Syria and Libya using paid proxy armies. This has lead to a planned wave of refugees (as well as planned Muslim migration) that have been let in to Germany and Sweden for example that will be used to divide the society and more importantly the genetic make up of that society. In other words Europeans will end up a minority in their own country and very likely become extinct. If you don’t believe me check some of French National Front leader Marine La Pen’s articles and interviews on the net. She has more brains than all the other French politicians put together. The reason? White Europeans are a threat to Jewish Zionist hegemony, simple as that. The white Europeans might dominate the political institutions just as white men in The United States but they certainly don’t pull the puppeteer strings!
As I said I know you will disagree but there is mountains of evidence and I will provide some links. The reality is mainstream history and historians are full of shit and repeaters of lies you need to get your history lesson elsewhere and the same applies today with the mainstream media and the presstitutes and media whores who blurt out and repeat over and over the manufactured BS and propaganda from their teleprompter.
And the evidence is: well start here and get back in a week or so, ha! …. and there is MUCH more but I will have as a guess you will flick thru it and dismiss is as BS again. As they say you can lead a person to the truth but you can’t make them think!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JRrbwi3xfM Red Ice Radio European migration MacDonald/Murdock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kbJIi0X_SI&spfreload=10 Red Ice Radio David Duke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRw0Wx9LgjE Media Whores David Duke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7GAbVhjTSw&feature=youtu.be A journalist speaks the truth
http://www.ihr.org Truth in abundance! (take your pick)
The friggin’ Gatestone institute ? http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/gatestone_institute
You can’t be serious….
Chris the Greatly Dismayed:
I think it is a good article and as I pointed out just where can you can guarantee the truth or statistics or omissions.
Maybe….but I tend to think it important where information comes from. Statistics can be so easily manipulated. Rape and sexual assault are difficult statistics to collect and compare anywhere. I have seen that study mentioned before and I understood it to be fairly misleading.
Here’s an explanation http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/what-to-do-when-a-twitter-troll-starts-spouting-statistics-at-you-20151116-gl05au.html
The agenda of the organisation that is putting out the information is very important to consider.
And a story that places Australia way above the world average http://www.news.com.au/national/australias-sexual-assault-shame-one-in-six-women-a-victim-putting-australia-way-above-world-average/story-fncynjr2-1226825094300
Most studies put Australia in one of the worst categories for sexual assault…..
Chris the Great Dismayed:
Yes, they are good articles showing what can happen with stats to suit. The Gatestone article was written by two Swedes by the look of things and published on the Gatestone site which has similar right wing views to the two authors Swedish website. The only thing I would say is that they did address some of the anomalies in the stats and if what they published about the Danish stats and the 21 Swedish reports IS true this would support the report. And of course there is no reports apparently suggesting the contrary. I have read several articles about Sweden in regard to rape increase and also Muslim violence in Malmo and that the left were putting pressure on the media to keep it quiet but I don’t save everything and I couldn’t find the links.
Their certainly is a chance that the rape increase stories maybe propagated or misleading but I am not convinced that it is not true also. In a broader sense there certainly does seem an agenda going on in Europe and those other links I provide are worth a listen/look.
If those Australian stats are a true reflection the domestic violence issue has certainly been high on the political agenda but the soothsayers don’t seem to be able to come up with many solutions.
Chris the Greatly Dismayed wrote:
He is! Unfortunately. nevk21 writes (and I am being selective):
Epistemologically speaking, the generation of ‘knowledge’ always starts with ‘theory or theories’ which are used to generate ‘facts’. (‘Facts’ of course are a ‘dime a dozen’, almost infinite in number. Just ask any serious historian(s), who are in the business of ‘fact selection’.)
Not only do ‘theories’ (or world views) generate facts, they are crucial as to which are ‘selected’ (or discarded) and also crucial in determining the ‘meaning(s)’ that are subsequently given.
From what I see of nevk21’s links, all are in the same ideological mould. He starts from the position (world view) that what happens in the world can only be understood from a Jewish Zionist hegemony. That’s the ‘theory’ he starts with. It’s the ‘theory’ employed to select his ‘facts’. And it’s the ‘theory’ he uses to give ‘meaning(s)’ to same.
It’s the theory he uses to generate his ‘truth’. No doubts. No discussion. No contemplation that ‘truth’ isn’t ever absolute. (And I will leave ‘logic and mathematics out of the discussion.)
Thanks for the 7:15 post, it said a lot.
Such a clear dropping of guano, and shedding of hackles and flight-feathers, can aid definitive identification, and thus allow design of an appropriate pigeon-hole.
The link to the (truth in abundance!) ‘Institute for Historical review’ (ihr) site, with it’s articles of holocaust denial and side-promos for David Irving’s books, was particularly revealing.
@Matters Not There is nothing like getting your information from a wide range of (multiple)sources, I say. You are way less likely to be misled.
Chris the Greatly Dismayed,
The principle of historical study, namely that of collecting as broad a variety of sources as possible, examining their credentials and circumstantial/prejudicial biases, then forming a rational deduction based upon an evidentially justifiable interpretation of the collected information, is relevant to so many other contemporary fields.
Ps, Thank you for the layered, faceted, perspicacity of your posts, and the quality of the various informational links attached.
You seem to have a rather admirable mind.
Pps, Some sustainability in the making of thneeds needs the constant planting of truffala tree seeds.
Credibility of source is the first thing you should check. There is a lot of crap out there.
The only credible source I can find on this matter is a report from the National Council for Crime Prevention about a study done in 1997-2001 (long before the influx of Syrian refugees) where the council found that immigrants were overrepresented in Sweden’s crime statistics, just as our Indigenous people are in ours. This is the report referred to in the muslim statistics link which, despite being written this year, is quoting studies done decades ago and an “anonymous source” for their graph.
Or you can listen to the muslim statistics site which says
“When I have “rape” in the title will increase visits to your blog dramatically. If a connection is made to immigrants over the presentation of rape crimes, it becomes very explosive.
The only major study that has been made regarding immigrants overrepresented in rape where the results became public, the investigation is in BRÅ-raport 1996:2, which covers the years 1985-1989.”
I will take David Irving’s facts any day. He is the best historian on WWII and in particular the Third Reich. As far as pigeon holes go, I think you fellas might be in a very tight one. And I was quiet right wasn’t I Matters Not, you didn’t even listen to Red Ice Radio did you and just dismissed it and tried to smooth it over with some fancy statements which said nothing … sort of like a peacock…pigeon!
It would be interesting to look at the correlation between disadvantage and crime stats. I have a feeling it would be far more informative about social policy.
“I will take David Irving’s facts any day. He is the best historian on WWII ”
Convicted Holocaust denier David Irving addressed fascist sympathisers and neo Nazis at a secret meeting in London yesterday.
Behind closed doors at a four-star hotel in South Kensington, the discredited author gave a speech condemning the Second World War Allied bombing campaign over Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe as ‘a war crime’.
Holocaust-denying historian David Irving organises ‘disgusting’ £2,000-a-head holiday tours of former concentration camps and Hitler’s HQ so people can ‘make up their own mind about the truth’
I sure as hell don’t want to share whatever hole you are in.
Okay. Again that claim is consistent with your ‘Jewish Zionist hegemony’ world view.
But you did go on.
nevk21, my statements never say anything. Some readers may give certain, intended ‘meanings’ to the words I write while others simply can’t ‘understand’. BTW, why do you think my words are ‘fancy’. It’s not a ‘meaning’ that’s normally ‘given’. Please explain.
Shit these Swedish immigrants are a problem.
KL, I can’t respond as quickly as you, but I note his ‘sentiments’ evoke a like response.
Perhaps it’s to do with being ‘real Australians’? Just jokin ..
You know what I mean by fancy very well Matters Not. Kaye Lee Irving is correct it was a war crime you just don’t understand the truth about WWII. All this crap of where my world view comes from is nonsense, simple as that. I have researched this stuff for years from multiple books sources articles etc. You just need to know where to look.
Actually I don’t. Here’s 7 possibilities.
Possibly. But I do know anything approaching the ‘truth’ doesn’t come from David Irving’
I accept that. No question. You speak a ‘truth’. My problem is that you do so in search of a ‘truth’ you already begin with. You ‘search’ for evidence to reinforce your pre-existing ‘world view’.
Sorry for that ‘fancy’ word but it’s usually understood as the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the entirety of the individual or society’s knowledge and point of view
So sorry, but it’s from Wiki.
Shit, these Swedes are a problem.
I know what you meant Matters Not no need to explain but you are wrong, about me and Irving. Why don’t you get a copy of Irvings book Hitler’s War. Be warned it is 30 years of research and 985 pages long. and while you are at it why don’t you google Jeff Rense and have a look at some of his 35 years of research also but then again maybe your world view will null any new ideas. If you don’t know the OZ vernacular of fancy you are either from somewhere else or that smart arse peacock I spoke about before.
3 declarative statements before bed.
I think Air Marshall Sir Arthur ‘bomber’ Harris and Reich-marshal Hermann Goering had similar cause to face war crimes tribunals, namely for, during the conduct of WWII, ordering the targeting of non-military/industrial civilian population centres in an attempt to traumatise the general citizenry of enemy nations into submission.
I also reckon David Irving is a holocaust-denying, controversy-craving, hack-historian who happily consorts with neo-nazis.
‘Epistomology’ means collated philosophical theories concerning the nature and scope of knowledge.
(Thanks, Matters Not, ‘fancy’ new word newly learned)
Do you, like Irving, deny the holocaust ever happened nev?
You would think that corvus boreus wouldn’t you because that is your world view, you know the official narrative just like that google search of Irving will tell you Irving is a holocaust denier and Rense is a conspiracy theorist and charlatan. Yes labels and lies to discredit anyone who dare speak the truth!
There are laws in this country to prevent you speaking about certain things and I think you know that Kaye Lee.
I notice you haven’t answered any of the criticisms I have raised, like your studies being decades old and well before any refugee influx, like Irving addressing neo-nazi meetings, like denying the holocaust is so patently stupid it can land you in jail.
You aren’t worth my time nev.
I say that David Irving is a holocaust denier because he has explicitly, repeatedly, over the years, on record, denied that there was any officially sanctioned effort to exterminate those people categorized as Jews by Hitler’s regime. I learned of that fact, and some details of the legal case that demolished his claims, years ago, before google was anything but a theoretical number.
Ps, I echo the closing statement by Kaye Lee.
I didn’t answer any of your criticisms because it should be obvious it is all BS. Irving is under attack and has been most of his life. I am used to the insults Kaye Lee, how pathetic can you get. The only person that can reject you is yourself so you become irrelevant don’t you!
corvus boreus Irving is correct. Just like Kaye Lee you don’t know the truth. I am wasting my time here.
nevk21, I have no doubt that Irvine and Rense did lots of ‘research’ and you followed them down that ‘path’. No doubt they have selected ‘facts’ that support their POVs.
But the writing of ‘history’ is above and beyond the presentation of ‘facts’, which I mentioned earlier.
I wonder what example(s) I can use for you to consider the relative irrelevancy of ‘fact’ (in the whole scheme of things) and the importance of ‘judgement’.
Here’s a series of ‘facts’. Tonight, I drove home in my Holden car. It’s silver on colour. It was raining. I was speeding. The moon was full. I just turned 70. The tyres were at 35 PSI, I had been drinking. I had a meal of fish and chips. My divorce is in process (but maybe not). The lawn needs mowing. The house needs painting. I just lost a ‘motza’ on the share market. The tide is in. The moon is full. And so on.
Now which of the above facts, do you want me to use (or not) as to why I am responding to you. They are all ‘factual’. But perhaps not relevant?
As I say, the writing of ‘history’ isn’t fundamentally about ‘facts’ which are almost infinite, but the selection of same. and the employment of ‘judgement’ and the like..
Dont mention all the christian churches involved in the pedo commission – actually not all – no orthodox that I have heard of. no muslims either – not that that matters much. (sorry for butting in I’m not really following the discussion)
@nevk21 and other holocaust deniers
Even a broken clock is right twice a day – weaving a fact or two into a narrative devoid of evidence and full of opinion has not helped David Irving nor will it help you.
BTW I have some Jewish ancestry and used to have relatives in Poland.
Me too dianaart – and I did have great arguments with my uncle and cousins – well i did till they bailed out.
Effectively what that means is that I would have more ‘legal’ right to a house in Palestine (should I accept that mission) even though no one in my family has ever lived there – than Palestinians who Have lived there for hundreds of years – at least.
It is deeply disturbing, as it is saddening, how Zionists have perpetuated racial hatred – the situation in Palestine given a ‘legitimacy’ based on an old collection of fireside myths….
I have to take care not be branded with the Nazis (when discussing Zionism) and dodge those same fascists when discussing events that resulted in the murder of millions.
David Irving is a nut. Gert Wilders however is not.
I think Jews can be the best critics of Israel and there are plenty of them. (i’m not religious – though I try to be respectful of those who are – we (and I don’t mean you because i dont know what you believe in) would expect it of them)
FTR, I am an atheist, my great grandmother was Jewish who was disinherited from her family when she eloped with the Scottish coachman. However, I understand, had I been in Poland with my distant relatives there, I would’ve been considered ‘Jewish enough’.
Anyone who promulgates hatred about an entire religion or race or gender or age is part of the problem.
“You can’t fight an ideological war by shutting physical borders”
Especially if the ideology is coming out of the world’s dominant, heavily-armed English-speaking nation…
In reply to your criticisms.
Firstly nowhere did I say my studies are decades old but it is a decade old and being before the refugee influx is irrelevant Secondly as far as Irving at Neo-nazi meetings just look at the words used even in the links to the articles to the stories, “New Nazis Notorious Holocaust denier”, I mean come on and that is why I said it should be obvious it is BS. The Daily Mail is a “Notorious War Mongering Mouthpiece for Empire” and as far as the £2,000-a-head tours that is for your travel and accomodation expense and so what, I think his tours would be excellent. As far as his meetings being behind closed doors and I can tell you the address is only revealed at the last minute also, Irving is sick of the tribe showing up with eggs etc and disrupting the meetings so it seems like a sensible decision to me. For the record I have the greatest respect for Jewish people but not the freak show Zionist right. For your information do you know the origin of NAZI is NA Hitler’s National Socialist Party and the ZI is Zionist, there was a deal done. In regard to going to jail I suggest you google Brendan O’Connell who went to jail for three years in W.A. after he said what he thought to a couple of Zionists and then exposed how a bunch of rednecks threatened to kill a Muslim kebab shop owner in Norsman in front of his kids and the cops did nothing. You won’t read Irving’s books so what about a book by Benton L. Bradberry “The Myth of German Villainy” . You might also like to find out who was behind the Holodomor and it wasn’t Stalin. If you think the Nazi’s were defeated in WWII you are wrong they are alive and kicking and ruling the world.
You are seriously deluded nevk21.
The full name of Adolf Hitler’s party was Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party; NSDAP). The shorthand Nazi was formed from the first two syllables of the German pronunciation of the word “national” (IPA: [na-tsi̯-o-ˈnaːl]).
The term was in use before the rise of the NSDAP as a colloquial and derogatory word for a backwards peasant, characterizing an awkward and clumsy person. It derived from Ignaz, being a shortened version of Ignatius, a common name in Bavaria, the area from which the Nazis emerged. Opponents seized on this and shortened the first word of the party’s name, Nationalsozialistische, to the dismissive “Nazi”.
And don’t bother providing any of your links or recommended reading. Everything you have said so far is demonstrably wrong so I won’t be wasting my time.
No, nevk21, you are not wasting your time here. It is our time you are wasting.
Kaye Lee of course you will find that BS explanation somewhere but my point is that the Nazis were not all German and far from it. This is a bit like that Kebab shop owner in Norseman, you know on his own. But that is fine, you pick your “facts” I will pick mine. We will never agree.
Are you calling survivors of concentration camps liars?
This is worth a watch but I am sure you will disagree:
Nevk21, we’re not interested in what appears to be pro-Nazi propaganda and we don’t won’t to be seen as a web site that allows such views to be published. If this continues then your comments will be removed.
I don’t know how you come to that conclusion with “appears to be” correct. I have no intention of offending anyone but apologise if I did. Best wishes and goodbye.