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We Have The Right To Boo, Do We Have The Maturity Not To?

When somebody points out that Adam Goodes is being booed not because he’s indigenous, it’s because of his “behaviour”, I can almost buy it. After all the argument goes, there are plenty of non-indigenous players who get booed and nobody boos Cyril.

And if most of them stopped exercising their right to free speech there and then, I might be convinced. However, it’s usually the next sentence that gets me, because the next sentence is usually akin to saying, “I’m not being sexist! This isn’t because you’re a woman, this is because of your refusal to understand that you’re the one who’s meant to do the dishes.”

I’ve read one letter in the paper that suggested that Goodes is being booed because he “lacks humility”. Mm, we don’t like uppity people is this country, do we? Uppity? How is that racist? I’m just saying that we prefer those who know their place!

There was also the suggestion that it was his “war dance” that’s caused the booing. Apart from the fact that this overlooks the fact that much of the booing occurred before that, it seems a massive over-reaction to an exuberant celebration after a goal. Have a look at some of the celebrations from players over the years! Can you think of any that have caused such prolonged animosity from fans of different clubs for so long? Nah, it’s not racist, it’s just because he chose to do a particular dance in celebration and we reserve the right to determine which dances people do and the manner in which they do them.

Of course, with his show of support, can we expect Lewis Jetta to be booed every time he touches the ball, or does he possess the necessary humility that we can forgive him and just get on with the game.

But it’s the suggestion that it was “the way he treated that thirteen year old girl” that probably irks me most.

When it’s all said and done, he looked at her and pointed her out to security after she called him “an ape”.

But that was appalling behaviour someone wrote, a great hulk of a man standing over a poor little girl like that.

Except that he wasn’t standing over her, she was in the crowd, he only looked and pointed. Of course, he should have been able to tell that she was only thirteen because, after all, she had her age tattooed on the forehead. And at thirteen, apparently, it’s permissible to make racist comments. Would it have been different if it were this she when she’d reached fourteen? To help, so that I don’t make Goodes’ mistake and alert security to anyone calling out offensive comments, could someone tell me at what age I’m allowed to report someone?

Is this what I should do in future? “Excuse me, but I was wondering what age you are, because I’m about to alert security to your comments and I don’t want to bring criticism upon myself? Oh thirteen, well you go right on with your comments about that guy’s sexuality. Personally, I think he was very brave to be the first openly gay AFL player, but I’m sure that your mother who’s been making those lovely comment about that Asian player will set you straight when you turn 21.”

Hey, she only called him “an ape”, she didn’t know that it was racist. Well that’s what the papers said, and they certainly wouldn’t have watered it down so they could print it, would they? How could a thirteen year old possibly know that it was racist?

And recently we had the mother of the girl saying this:

“If he hadn’t have done it he wouldn’t be having the problems he’d be having now. He probably should apologise because maybe he should have picked his target a little bit better. She’d only turned 13 five days beforehand. She was technically still 12. She had no idea what she was saying.”

Now, I don’t know what part of only turning thirteen a few days beforehand make one “technically still 12”, but it’s pretty clear that this mother has now explained that to her daughter why calling someone an “ape” is wrong.

It’s also interesting that whoever was with her that night at the football was negligent for allowing this poor young girl who – at thirteen – is too young to know anything about what’s right and wrong for allowing to be led off by security all by herself. Surely they should have accompanied her to check she was all right.

Nah, it seems he should have just left it. What till the girl turns eighteen and knows that what she did could have been seen as racist. Just like all those football fans know that it’s ok to boo Adam Goodes because he looked at a white girl and pointed when he should have just accepted that she’s allowed to call him whatever she likes because she’s too young to know better.

I’ll be interested in hearing the same defence should a thirteen year old Muslim boy ever gets themselves into trouble for something they say. More specifically, I’ll be interested to hear people condemn the neighbour or teacher or whoever reported him for not simply ignoring it, because thirteen year olds don’t know any better.

Aboriginality, it’s fine. We even have an indigenous round. But I can’t help wondering how far some people have moved since Collingwood President, Alan Macalister’s remark about aboriginal players all those years ago:

“… as long as they behave like white people, well, off the field, everyone will admire and respect them.”

Yep, I can accept people have a right to boo. Free speech and all. But now, we all have a big think about the context. Booing Adam Goodes has become racist, because it is being defined that way, and the Andrew Bolt argument that white people should determine what’s racist and what’s not doesn’t really cut it. If you were in the middle of a crowd that was cheering when someone was being attacked and you began to cheer as well, it doesnt make sense to argue that you weren’t joining in with those cheering the attackers, you were cheering because of some totally different reason.

So by all means boo Adam Goodes if you like. But let’s be clear you’re booing him because he identified a girl who was racially vilifying him, or because he proudly exhibits his heritage. These are the main reasons being given. To say that I’m joining the crowd for a different reason, is a bit like someone arguing that they joined the Nazi party, not for the policies, but because they had such spiffy uniforms (Yes, I know, Godwin’s Law!)

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  1. Awabakal

    It has been said that Goodes is thin-skinned; self-important; classed as a minority; …

    Well, what Goodes did do was react to the spectators and, not only did he react, he took them on. Anyone that takes on a group, particularly a group of the opposition colours has just invited crowd participation and incited crowd reaction.

    The racist side of this discussion is an Adam Goodes beat-up and media funneled hysteria.

    You want to take on the crowd Adam? Better have the balls to stand up to it, a bit like kitchen and heat.

  2. Peter

    So you’re saying that if one calls out discrimination one should be prepared for further discrimination? Sounds about right for a bigot to say.

  3. Adnil

    Just wondering having just reached the age of 70….. technically am I’m still 69? One of the basics my parents taught me was respect, no matter if they were black, white, brown or even blue, male or female….it didn’t matter. One would think that by the age 13 but technically a twelve year old would have taught this. Perhaps the mother of this 13, but technically is still 12 year old, should rethink her shameful excuse for this appalling behavior…..I am, we are Australian. We are better than this.

  4. Clive Manson

    The war dance ain’t the problem. The Kiwis do it all the time….
    Being technically twelve is not the problem. Fact is, it was said!
    Can’t say other aboriginal players are not vilified, therefore it is not racist, because…
    The white fellas aren’t booed at all.
    Just the men in white, which is fair game, as they are always wrong!

    I have been at post Collingwood game where Adam Goodes was booed, and let me be very clear, I was totally disgusted to be associated with such behaviour.

    These people booing are either racist or sheep following the flock. Either way. They are very “unAustralian”!

  5. Brad

    How disingenuous to state the view that Goodes should have to stand up to more bigotry fall calling out bigotry, all while hiding behind the Aboriginal name Awabakal.
    I live as a person of European decent on Awabakal lands and take great offence to you using this name to justify bigotry. If indeed you are from the same area as me you would do well to talk to some local Aboriginal people and hear their stories of how their ancestors were rounded up and slaughtered at the hands of British settlers. Then you may have a little understanding and empathy for the plight of the modern Aborigine after over 200 years of vilification.

  6. Florence nee Fedup

    We appear to be picking up young Muslims boys not much older than that girl for putting comments of social media for terrorism. I thought Goodes took time and effort to ensure the young woman was OK two years ago.

  7. donwreford

    If Goodes has the right to self expression the crowed has a right to self expression, the crowed now referred to as a mob by commentators are not referred to as a mob when they pay money to see the game.

  8. diannaart

    The girl in this sorry tale was 13 not 3.

    At age 13, I was still an atheist – something I had decided at age 12 after much research and analysis – even writing an essay questioning religion, for which I scored an ‘A+’ – but was told not to expect said essay in the school magazine.

    At age 13, all those years ago, I was aware that calling a black person an ape is not acceptable. Also, at age 13, I understood what bullying was like and the accumulative effect of bullying that never stops, how demoralising and alienating is bullying – at age 13. Although I probably wouldn’t have presented such concepts as “accumulative effect of bullying”, none the less I had personal understanding of discrimination.

    I also know how difficult it is to pick a face from a crowd – such as at a football game.

    So can we stop trying to make excuses for a bratty kid, or demonise a war-dance (on Indigenous Day, FFS) in order to justify the ongoing racism towards Adam Goodes?

    Cowards are hiding behind the banner of ‘booing is a traditional part of football’ – as they hide behind any excuse to extoll hatred.

    Cowards are those who claim, after abuse, “it wasn’t personal”.

    Cowards will say anything to place blame on someone else – such as on a successful man for being “uppity”. As a woman I know how wrong being “uppity” can be considered.

  9. Kaye Lee

    This article by Stan Grant is well worth the read.

    “But this is how Australia makes us feel. Estranged in the land of our ancestors, marooned by the tides of history on the fringes of one of the richest and demonstrably most peaceful, secure and cohesive nations on earth.

    If good fortune or good genes means you are among the lucky few to find an escape route then you face a choice: to “go along to get along”, mind your manners, count your blessings and hide in the comfort of the Australian dream; or to infuse your success with an indignation and a righteousness that will demand this country does not look away from its responsibilities and its history.”

    And excusing this girl by saying she was only 13 is rubbish. If she had said that at school she would have been in big trouble.

  10. Rossleigh

    Don’t the commentators have the right to the self expression of calling the crowd a “mob”?

  11. Harquebus

    If it was me, I would try even harder and stick it to ’em but then, I haven’t spent my life being vilified because of my race.
    Us humans have always attacked and/or abused any sign of weakness. It’s in our DNA.

  12. jimhaz

    In time anglos will be a minority here and will be “Estranged in the land of our ancestors”. Many already feel this way.

  13. Harquebus

    I imagine that is exactly how Aboriginal Australians feel.

  14. Adrianne Haddow

    The problem is Adam had the temerity to display his aboriginally and his pride in it.
    And he should be proud.
    Our indigenous people have survived the attempted genocide perpetrated on them by the early settlers, the government attempts to “breed out the black” in the eugenics experiments of the 1930’s through to the 1950’s, the stolen children years, John Howard’s intervention and the northern and western states incarceration of young and old indigenous people at alarming rates. No paper work incarcerations of young offenders because it makes less work for the police.
    Deaths in custody seem to be reserved for indigenous prisoners.
    I, too, live on Awabakal land and take umbrage at your use of an indigenous name to excuse the abuse of an indigenous person.

  15. guest

    Apart from all the hooha about who is and who is not racist and why someone should or should not be booed, there is one little point of interest: the mother’s claim that the girl was still technically only twelve.

    Comment has been made about at what age children should know what is appropriate language to use against other people. But the comment about the girl’s age needs a comment. Five days after the girl’s thirteenth birthday it was one year and five days since her 12th birthday. When she was said to be 12 she was in her 13th year; hence the mother’s comment about the girl being technically twelve.

    It just reminded me of the huge argument we had at the end of 1999 when some of us claimed that the year 2000 was the beginning of the 21st century. The number 2000 means the year was’ twenty hundred and nothing’. That is, the last year of the C20th. The C21st began on January 1, 2001. It has to do with confusion between cardinal and ordinal numbers.

    While the girl at 13 yrs and 5 days old might be ‘technically’ 12 yrs old according to her mother, the girl was already 13 yrs old – and 5 days into her 14th year.

    Anyway, the matter had already been settled between the girl and Goodes, had it not?

  16. diannaart

    …the matter had already been settled between the girl and Goodes, had it not?

    Yes, indeed ‘guest’

    Although scrolling through for a more complete story was difficult until I found this from the UK!

    Goodes has since tweeted: “Just received a phone call from a young girl apologizing for her actions. Lets support her please”.

  17. Florence nee Fedup

    Jimhaz, so what. We have always been multicultural since the First Fleet landed.

    We are not English, not American but Australian. Yes uniquely Australian.

    We are descended from a mixture of many nations.

    Waves of migration from now most nations on earth, has made us what we are.

    Irish, both north and south, English and French blood runs in my veins. I am not any of those races, I am Australian.

    The blood of many more nations run in the veins of my grand and great grand children.

    As an result, we have a rich and colourable culture, that is forever growing and changing.

    Of this I am proud.

    PS. Fifth generation. All my ancestors came before 1850

  18. crypt0

    Australians have the right to be bigots … and they are, in their thousands.
    Once again, white Australia gives itself away …
    It’s always been this way, and after a mere 225 years, it still is, and always will be.

  19. kerri

    If the girl was too young to understand what she was yelling at a professional footballer then maybe she was too young to attend the game? Yes! Let’s ask the AFL to restrict entry to people below a certain age? Until they are old enough to understand the consequences and offence of their actions.
    There was a story doing the rounds of the internet recently, with footage to support it, of a little girl, and I am talking 4 or 5, at the Zoo with her parents, who beat her chest at a silverback gorilla behind the “unbreakable” glass. The gorilla took offence. And no I am not making the parallel to do an Eddie Mcguire and call Adam Goodes a gorilla. But my first thought when the gorilla rushed the glass and cracked it was WTF were her parents thinking by not educating her to understand the provocative action of beating your chest (as a sign of a challenge) at a 200kg ball of offended gorilla muscle?
    The football girl raised similar thoughts in my mind. WTF are her parents doing raising her to not understand a racist taunt? But then they probably love Eddie and Sam and The Footy Show so I guess anything is OK?
    The little girl can be seen in the reflection.

  20. crypt0

    Awabakal … Obviously Adam Goodes will have to take on the mob without any help from you.
    You are obviously much more comfortable sticking with the anonymous thousands of booers …
    For some reason best known to you.
    It takes guts to do what AG has done.
    A commodity in shorter supply than most would like to think.

  21. mars08

    I’m always amazed when the racists are offended at being tagged as racists. It’s a lifestyle choice… and nobody would know if they kept their mouths shut. Besides they can change if they want.

    The victims of racism cannot change the colour of their skin or shape of their eyes.

  22. Anon E Mouse

    How wussy is it that people have been so hurt by an imaginary spear.

    The media outcry about Goode’s actions, stands in direct contrast to the silence on the non-jailing of a drugged up hit-and-run white driver who killed a black kid in the NT.

    Offence taken at imaginary spear versus death of a black kid.

    Time for Australia to harden up and face the issue of racism instead of this imbicilic outrage.

  23. Anomander

    It is the 21st century, by now I thought we would have evolved sufficiently away from this type of behaviour toward a more civilised society.

    Seems a whole section of our society has stopped evolving and started devolving into a more primitive form or racist bigots.

    I suspect the MSM are broadcasting subliminal stupidity messages through the TV.

  24. Wally

    Rossleigh I didn’t like Adam Goodes before he became Australian of the year or the “Ape” incident occurred does this make me racist? The reason I don’t like Adam Goodes is because he stages for free kicks, can be a bloody big sook when he doesn’t get his own way and he always plays the racist card, as a result he insults my intelligence. As good as Adam Goodes intentions are I think he does a lot of damage by being so self indulgent.

    I must be a racist pig by your standards I guess????

    My stepfather of 40+ years is black and we get on well and he calls a black man a black man. He must be racist as well.

  25. mars08

    Australia 2015.

    To paraphrase Shakespeare’s Hamlet, Act 3…

    The bogans doth protest too much, methinks.

  26. Wally


    Which bogan/s are you referring to? The bogan who throws spears or the bogans in the crowd?

  27. mars08

    Did someone throw a spear??? Oh my…! That’s quite frightening. Hope nobody got injured…

  28. Annie B

    My dad used to take me to football matches – he followed North Melbourne. …. I was around 13, going on 12 at the time. … Now Dad was not one to swear, especially in front of Mum, my sister and me. So rather than saying “you stupid bastard” at the top of his voice at the footy, he’d yell ” you silly great ape “. … One of his favourite sayings that ” you silly great ape “.

    Ah, but this was back in the 1950’s – when never an aboriginal ( or Chinese or Sudanese, Fijian or coloured person of any kind ) was seen on the ( then ) VFL sports playing field. …. So was Dad being racist for calling a white player or umpire, a ‘silly great ape’ ? …. today, he would be called just that – if an indigenous or other coloured person were playing. …

    While I abhor the actions of the crowd ( so many against one person, btw ) … in their repeated booing attacks at Adam Goodes, I am trying to point out here, how ‘precious’ we have become to take issue with it at all, be it for or against AG. ….. Mainly the media is to blame for continuing it – and Adam Goodes kindly supported the girl after the first incident in question, as diannaart said. … As for people being ‘offended’ by a tribal dance and a pretend spear … ??? Woosy stupid stuff, by an already pent up crowd, looking for anything to have a go at. ,,, They are after all ” at the footy ” …. and that means pulses race, adrenalin is high, and emotions run riot. … That is no excuse though, for singling out one man on a field, and booing him mercilessly.

    I wonder how the followers of most AFL teams would react if they knew the origins of many of their much-loved players. …. the link below shows the parentage / lineage of many AFL players, both past ( I think ) and present.

    Just proves our multi-cultural heritages … as Florence nee Fed Up showed in her post.



    And rather than mother defending her 13 yr old daughter, it might have been best if ‘mother’ had taught her daughter to not call out ANYTHING disparaging at all, at the football – ever. …. Perhaps she could have instilled in her daughter some lady-like behaviour ? …. whether the child knew or not is irrelevant … it is the fact that she was hurling some form of abuse at a player – no matter the wording used. …

    Would be willing to bet it wasn’t the only aggressive terms the child used on that day, in that location.

  29. Awabakal

    Brad – You are out of your league and miscomprehending. Many of us do not think like you do and shrill indignation does not answer the situation.

    I can go back to many days at the local field near the lake, when opposition took us on in the crowd, white people in the crowd as well and all responded to the opposition taunts in the same way, suffice to say that if some of the things we used to say were repeated by crowds to day we would be barred for life.

    Snap out of it! And grow some hairs on them.

    Oh yeah, you probably want to see my birth certificate and authority to speak as an elder.

    Like I say, heat and kitchen, you might be better off mending socks.

  30. Peter F

    As a caucasian Australian, I had two days of experiencing what it is like to be indigenous in the small country town near where I live. We set up a mock ‘polling booth’ in 2007 on the 40th anniversary of the referendum relating to indigenous inclusion in ‘our’ country. For those two days I sat by our ‘polling booth’ and was amazed at the vitriolic response from many people. There were, of course many who appreciated our actions, but I learned a lot about how our indigenous friends are regarded by many. I am not surprised at what has happened. What racists do not understand that , in blaming the victim they are fitting perfectly into the stereotype.

  31. Rossleigh

    Wally, I think if you read the first few paragraphs, you’ll find that I’m not calling people racist simply because they’ve booed Adam Goodes. I’m actually suggesting that their reasons justifying their booing is what makes them racist. However, when you make the same comment on both this article and mine, then I guess you may be more concerned with what you’ve got to say than what’s actually written.
    However, good on you for choosing to have a stepfather who’s black. Lots of people wouldn’t have made that choice, so there’s no way you could be considered racist. I”ve never said that every time Adam Goodes was booed it was racist; I’m just suggesting that the reasons people are now giving sound worse than the booing itself. By all means go to the football and boo to your heart’s content. Just don’t be surprised if some people get the wrong idea now that it’s become an issue.

  32. corvus boreus

    Repetitiously booing a (melanin gifted) player every time he comes near the ball in a football game doesn’t necessarily mean that the ‘boo-er’ is a racist. It does, however, indicate that they are an abusive boor.

  33. Harquebus

    Perhaps some are sick to death of political correctness gone stupid and this is their way of expressing it. Something akin to civil disobedience.
    Personally, I’m sick to death of the whole debate. Another example of media overload which, will soon move on to the next perceived societal abhorrence and then the next and so on and so on without anything actually being done about any of them.
    I didn’t watch theDrum today for the same reason.

  34. Florence nee Fedup

    IMHO those who missed The Drum today missed a good show.

  35. Anon E Mouse

    Harquebus, Indigenous Australians are sick to death of racism in Australia – literally.

    The simple truth is that racism/racist has become a bit of a swear word for non-Indigenous people to take umbrage at. The poor didums get their feelings hurt by imaginary spears and being called a racist.

    I applaud Adam Goodes, but feel sorry for the way he has been treated, for opening up this conversation on the issue of the deeply embedded racism in Australia.

    I am heartily sick of the victim status being claimed by overt racists and those wounded by the truth and imaginary spears.

  36. Florence nee Fedup

    Wally are you saying Goode is just like Abbott? Throws a tantrum when he doesn’t get his own way. Plays dirty?

  37. Florence nee Fedup

    There are many people I have met in my lifetime. Even had to work and play with a few. Never felt I had to abuse or sledge them for that fact.

  38. Harquebus

    Anon E Mouse
    Please forgive my ambiguity. It is the media band wagon and the Adam Goodes thingy that I am tired of.
    Of course the racism debate should continue.

    Perhaps is the media butted out, the whole episode might die down.

    Today I researched “origins of racism” with some interesting results.

  39. Annie B

    Anon E Mouse ….

    I also applaud Adam Goodes for the stances he has taken throughout – from the first instances, to now. Also feel ashamed at the way he has been treated … and would be very sad to see him go. … the AFL has some answers up their sleeves, but will they use them ???

    And yes, there is deeply embedded racism in our country. ….

    But – the racist rabble who claim victimisation at being called racists, are in fact, the very people who will be louder with their racist taunts, and will drag as many willing people along with them, while they do it.

    Aided and abetted by the grand master of all planners !! – the abbutt !! … who remains silent about so many things to do with vilification ( unless it is someone like Bron Bish, who – according to the right wing has been ‘vilified’ recently – 😛 .. )

    That is the shame of it – more than anything. … That this monster in control, does not have the integrity or intestinal fortitude to stand up to – e.g. Christensen for attending a ‘patriots’ rally in Queensland, or for doing the right thing by asylum seekers ( which sends a HUGE message to all and sundry ), or make sure indigenous communities are supported in their way of life …. but I have digressed ….

    It is so very easy to digress when it comes to the inept governing of this country by the likes of the abbutt. …. “It” did have something to say about Adam Goodes – very little, and very carefully, to protect his own image ( today 31st July – somewhere on radio ? ).

    We should all face up the truth – we are racist at the core – and do something about it —- NOW.

    ( but – – – – if wishes were horses, beggars would ride !! ) ….

  40. Florence nee Fedup

    This government not having much luck with Australians of the year since coming to power. Last year was Goods and his fight against racism. This year Batty and her continuous raising of domestic violence and all it entails.

    Different issues but similar in nature. Both challenge Australians, their beliefs, culture. which make many uncomfortable. Public really don’t want to know.

    Neither are going away.

  41. Wally

    @Rossleigh I did read your article and my interpretation was that you had a leg on each side of the fence. You are correct I did want to make a point and that being that even indigenous Australians are sick of Adam Goodes and political correctness that has gone way over the top.

    This appeared on social media since I posted my comment and I think it is worded very well –

    A strong argument from one of Australia’s most intelligent indigenous commentators on real suffering, Dallas Scott:
    “As Adam walks out for his next game, before making his way onto that perfectly manicured stadium lawn, I suggest he take a deep, slow breath and reflect upon the reality of his life. Rather than having to emerge from the sheds for the ‘coloured people’, kept separate from the white folks playing beside him, he will run out after being supported by his entire team, not kept to the back. When he is thirsty, he doesn’t have to take a drink at the appropriately labelled drinking fountain, set aside for only folks with his racial identity, but rather will be served like a prince, with a special servant whose only job is to provide refreshments for the thirsty players, regardless of their skin colour or heritage. As he drives his brand new sports car to training, where he looks around at the other players arriving in their equally expensive vehicles and stops to realise he is paid just as much as them, if not more, he should perhaps pause a moment and wonder about whether he is fighting a war that has already been won, and instead of complaining from his position at the top, realise how those on the bottom rungs might be sick of hearing him whinging and would much rather he just got on with life.”

    And my response to reading the above was –

    How bloody true in particular “how those on the bottom rungs might be sick of hearing him whinging and would much rather he just got on with life” and you don’t have to be indigenous to be poorer and have a harder life than Adam Goodes.

  42. Annie B

    Florence ….

    Rosie Batty – from what I have learned ( excellent source btw ), is absolutely no admirer of the current pee-em. … That’s for sure.

    Just thought I might advise of that. …. ! Little wonder, huh ?

  43. Florence nee Fedup

    Yep. Abbott was very quick to put his arms around her. Quickly got burnt. No friend of the PM. He must be kicking himself for the power he gave her. She sure has the ability to use it to the full. She is spot on with her views on domestic violence. Is good value.

    I hope we are not going to see Howard’s political correctness come back.

    How one can believe they have the right to say or do things that hurt others as their right is beyond me.

    Our anti discrimination laws come about for good reason., Too many people, in the position of not being able to protect themselves were being hurt.

    We are lucky to have the Batty’s and Goode’s of this world. Takes guts to take on some in society.

    I for one is sick of seeing so many unnecessary injustices in our community. Sad to see numbers increasing. Fighting battles, one thought were solved in the past.

  44. Florence nee Fedup

    I don’t believe Goode and many like him are talking about their life, or how hard it is. I believe they are fighting, working to ensure those that come after them have it easier.

  45. Anon E Mouse

    @Wally, what exactly are you saying – because overt apartheid is no longer in force the fight for equality and respect has been won.

    Indigenous Australians who have been less fortunate than Adam Goode are applauding him and his stand.

    Annie B, as for the current clowns in govt, I have total contempt.

    However lets not forget that Labor in office continued the NT intervention and mostly maintained the status quo. The one shining light was Rudd’s aplology, but there was little follow through. The same mindset remained in the depts delivering govt programs, designed by the same clowns with the same results.

    Gillard followed the agenda of the right and did even less – Macklin became more disliked by Indigenous Australians.

    So, when we rid ourselves of the curse of Abbott – what exactly is Labor planning on doing – continuing with the closure of communities, preferencing mining companies and all others over Aboriginal rights? The greens want to appropriate the ‘custodianship’ of Aboriginal lands …

    Meanwhile Indigenous kids suicide rates are skyrocketting – and I would bet that any programs etc devised to address this with the ‘politically correct’ Indigenous experts, will end up being delivered by mainstream charities that are more worried about winning contracts that they have no idea on delivering.

    Racism or, if that is too offensive, colonial disdain against Indigenous Australians, continues to fester.

    What exactly has Labor or the Greens, or independents (except Bob Katter), had to say about the deeply entrenched racism in Australia?

  46. Anon E Mouse

    Florrence, you have nailed it. Goode is working for his people, current and future. He is not an individualistic and self-serving.

  47. Wally

    @Anon E Mouse I don’t think booing Goodes has as much to do with racism as it does with his on field antics. The plight of the Aboriginal people is not caused primarily by racism it is probably more to do with ignorance. Unfortunately many well intentioned efforts have failed to overcome problems and successive governments have done bugger all worth mentioning.

    Education on both sides of the divide is the answer and as easy as that sounds it is difficult to achieve.

    From the aboriginals perspective it is difficult to persuade kids to become educated when no one else in the family has learnt basic reading and writing skills. Often the attitude of “they did ok without learning” is used by kids to avoid schooling and also by parents to dissuade kids from studying. I had a lengthy conversation with a group of teachers working on the Gove Peninsula 4-5 years ago that was very informative about the problems they face everyday trying to teach indigenous kids.

    Australians it will be right attitude to things that they have no direct control of or things that do not affect them directly does little to help those in our society who desperately need help regardless of their race or skin colour. I think this has got worse over the past 15-20 years as the class wars have widened the gap between the haves and the have nots. The average bloke on the street is too busy working and dealing with his own problems to worry about anything or anyone else, we all think we are hard up and being screwed by someone.

    Instead of closing down communities our governments should be making them bigger and better. Send doctors, teachers and others to live in the communities so we all learn together from each other. Our cities are overcrowded and we need to distribute our population across the rural regions so it would be easy to solve many problems at the same time. I think white Australia can benefit from learning about Aboriginal culture and better ways to live from our vast lands. Equally indigenous people would see more benefits of being educated if they lived in a society where being educated in white mans ways gave them an advantage.

    This issue will not be solved in 5-10 years it will take decades but something positive must be done ASAP.

  48. Anon E Mouse

    @Wally, education is cited as being ‘the’ answer to Indigenous disadvantage, parents are blamed for kids lack of education, but this is a bit of a myth.

    Even with education – higher education – the statistics are clear, Indigenous academics remain on the outer in employment (not talking about the lucky few – or those who tow the line). Recent govt reviews show that even with a PhD, Indigenous academics, if they are employed, get short term contracts, and their role is often at a much lower rate than their qualifications suggest.

    Qualified Indigenous professionals continue to experience being relegated to lower roles, their education demeaned.

    Kids in school quickly catch on that their education is often reinforcing the status quo in racialised inequality – despite small, some could say tokenistic moves, of including Indigenous knowledge and history in the curriculum. To achieve in school means becoming fluent in mainstream (white) Australian culture – and that culture contains the taint of racism/ignorance …

    Now if Indigenous kids can cotton on that education can be used to fight for justice, to give them the tools and skills to demand a fair go, things may change.

  49. Wally

    @Anon E Mouse I know of jobs in Victorian University for Aboriginal liaison officers that have been unfilled for 2-3 years. Either the recruiting staff are not doing their jobs, Aboriginals in the area are not qualified for the job or Aboriginals in this field are in high demand.

    Where I live there are very few jobs that offer full time secure employment, most jobs are on a casual basis and the LNP are responsible for this. Twenty years ago unions ensured that workers were given permanent employment after a set time but that has changed in recent years. I think everything that adversely effects the general population impacts more so on indigenous people. We really need to work at restoring work conditions for all workers and the end result will benefit everybody.

    I agree “Now if Indigenous kids can cotton on that education can be used to fight for justice, to give them the tools and skills to demand a fair go, things may change.” and this still comes down to overcoming the issues that are stopping the kids getting an education. It doesn’t matter if it is peer pressure, lack of parental support or parents not enforcing kids school attendance we must overcome the education issue.

    Lots of white kids wag school, rebel and lose their way but social conscience and expectations force most of them to change, until aboriginal parents appreciate the necessity to educate their kids we are fighting a losing battle. And yes I know it will not solve all of the problems but until the issues that can be resolved are resolved you cannot move on to solve the next problem. There comes a time when the Aboriginal community must do whatever they can for themselves and stop worrying about who to blame.

  50. Brad

    @Awabakul, you are saying that my lifetime of living amongst the Aboriginal and Islander population of western Lake Macquarie and defending them against vilification is all for nought because you think they should harden up and accept racism? If you are an elder as you say who criticises Adam Goodes as you have then you would be a disgrace to the many Awabakal Aborigines that I have grown up with and respect.
    Its not about “growing some hairs on them”, its about having some respect for human rights and dignity. If you can’t see that from whatever race you may be than I think you are a part of the race issue that continues to fester in Australia. And you certainly would not speak for the majority of the local Awabakal people.

  51. iggy648

    “Did someone throw a spear??? Oh my…! That’s quite frightening. Hope nobody got injured…” Mars08, how do you think it would be taken if a white football player did the Adam Goodes war dance towards a group of indigenous spectators, but substituting the spear throwing gesture with a rifle shooting gesture, followed by the fist/elbow gesture? I think it would be called as racism and the white player would be banned until he apologised. I think some spectators think Goodes war dance was a racist gesture, and he got away with it because he’s indigenous. It is, to my way of thinking, simulating murder. I hope we’re not teaching young indigenous people war dances that simulate murder. And while you seek to trivialise it, I personally don’t think it’s OK.

  52. Kaye Lee

    Have none of you ever seen the haka? It is a traditional dance. It does not imply disrespect. Comparing a traditional dance to simulating murder or a rude gesture shows a distinct lack of cultural awareness. These dances are done for many reasons including to celebrate great achievements.

  53. Wally

    @Kaye Lee I don’t think it is the actual war dance/spear throw itself that has riled people it is the context and forum where it was done. The Haka is typical done as a ceremony of respect as part of pre event entertainment it is not an impromptu display by an individual with political significance. Adam Goodes war dance was performed with the oppositions supporters being the target so it is hard to accept that it was not a provocative act.

    If Adam wanted to make a point without raising the ire of footy fans he should have arranged for the war dance to be performed by a group of dancers before the game or during a break. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but maybe it could be done in future indigenous rounds and at least then some good could come of the current situation.

  54. Florence nee Fedup

    So Indigenous people should only behave in a manner that it OK by white people. Goode has been very clear what the so called dance was about. It was about young people of his race showing o the world, that they are proud of the race they belong to. No one has the right to say how they should do this.

    If people read into the dance, any other meaning, that is their problem, not Goode’s. It is about celebration, not threats or aggression.

    Keeping up continuous abuse of one man over 12 months is ridiculous. So some don’t like it, I can only say, time to get over it.

  55. Florence nee Fedup

    Maybe it is time to listen to what the likes of Goode, Mundine, Stone, Grant and many others are saying at this time. They are baring their souls, telling us their personal experience growing up. All of these people have had great success in life.

    They are telling us, answers are not black and white. They know education is important. They know white man’s intervention was doomed to failure from day one. Same as this government’s tough love with benefits paid with debit cards. All take control from the hands of these people/

    All assistance given, money spent is being undermined by racial discrimination and all that goes with it,

    First lesson one needs to learn is we are not superior to indigenous people. This land doesn’t only belong to us. We don’t know better than them, what is good for them.

    Time for us to shut up I believe.

    Shut up and really listen.

  56. diannaart

    Excellent points there, Florence

    The satirical “Shovel” got the message across:

    White Australians will advise non-white Australians as soon as they start being racist, it has been decided.

    “This is a good system that removes any confusion,” a spokesperson said. “At the moment we’re not being racist, but we’ll let you know if that changes. We’re experts on this, so there’s nothing you need to worry about”.

    Another spokesperson – who has extensive experience in the racism area – strongly agreed. “I understand that this can be complex for some people – it is a little tricky if you’re not experienced in this kind of thing – but we’ve got it covered, ok?”

    He said there was no need to get all uptight. “What’s important is that we take the emotion out of this issue and just stick to the facts. That way we can just get everything back to normal”.

    Some (too many) whites really fear a lot of stuff.

  57. jimhaz

    [So by all means boo Adam Goodes if you like. But let’s be clear you’re booing him because he identified a girl who was racially vilifying him, or because he proudly exhibits his heritage]

    For me it was because he displayed his ego in a negative F.Y. fashion which then led to uncouth mob behaviour. Everyone reacts to negativity and many automatically react with stronger opposing aggression (Alan Jones for example). Whether the negativity is justified or not doesn’t matter (sensitivity to name calling is a subjective matter) – its on-field where spectators minds are tuned in to “battle” and they are not taking into account “the rest of him and his life experiences”. Hopefully they will now.

    I see it as primarily bullying myself. I don’t watch AFL, but off field Goodes seems like an excellent fellow. I’d also think that if his behaviour on-field was worse than others, then the other players wouldn’t be supporting him as they have.

    No doubt there is racism underlying some of this, but for me racism (in the broadest context of racism being a form of intergroup competition generally), like sexuality, unconsciously underlies many of our complex interpersonal reactions. Only some move past this – if the causes are there for this to occur they will and if not they won’t. In the light of day, don’t be surprised if this situation leads to improvement, due to being a cause for reflection, even with clowns like Alan Jones being immature.

    [The war dance ain’t the problem. The Kiwis do it all the time….]

    It is part of the problem. This war dance (as shown repeatedly on TV in relation to this issue) is a play action of violence and a new thing to us. The Hacka is both more involved, directed at the opposing team and we have had many years to become quite comfortable with it and enjoy it.

  58. Wally

    Florence nee Fedup “So Indigenous people should only behave in a manner that it OK by white people” In a manner that is acceptable to everyone just like the rest of us have too. Political correctness and racism are both 2 way streets, you cannot be offensive toward a crowd of opposition supporters then after the game claim it was not meant to offend. The war dance should have been treated the same way a player displaying an offensive finger action would have been treated but because it was claimed it was meant to be an inoffensive gesture to signify indigenous round nothing was done. A big part of peoples issue with Adam Goodes is that he has avoided sanctions in the tribunal and from umpires etc. that many believe he is a protected species. even opposition coaches have held this view not just those who are booing him.

  59. Annie B

    Wally –

    Cannot agree with anything you said there. The alleged ‘war dance’ was nowhere near as offensive as a one ( or two ) finger salute. … it was part pure joy, and part ‘ that’s for all the boo’s I get when I come on the ground ‘ … and I think it behoves us to remember he has been booed many times before, when playing – for maybe a reason, or no reason at all.

    And if you care to look at football history, you would find that there have been umpteen players who have ‘seemed’ to have curried favour, or been favoured in some way, in tribunals for something they did wrong ( or not ). I’d like just one $ for every time I have heard dispute over a decision a tribunal has handed down – usually when it’s been minimal. ” Geez – One week for THAT ? — he shoulda got four weeks” … etc.

    All in the eye of the beholder, I guess – in the long run, though.

  60. Annie B

    Florence nee FedUp …

    You put your points forward very well. … Your last sentence ” shut up and really listen” has far reaching implications. We should try to listen ( fat chance for many ) to the real lessons here – i.e. to actually behave like adults, to have some integrity and discipline, to recognise what are aggressive gestures on field, and what is not … and ( in the case of rugby and AFL ) to be disciplined enough to not want to turn around and beat the shit out of someone nearby in the stands, because he happens to be barracking loudly for the other side, and not yours. … Disputes galore in the crowd still happen.

    If the idiots in a crowd, collectively, had half a brain, they would not give the elbow / fist salute, the two finger salute, the completely un-necessary screamed abuse at umpires, and players ( be they black, white or bloody brindle ) … and abuse of one another.

    Oh but pardon me – that would make football …. er, um – not football, wouldn’t it ? …

    Many pay to see a good ( they hope ) game of football, and keep their opinions reasonably well, to themselves, others go to ‘da footy’ to release pent up aggression. … there’s no doubt in my mind about that. …. ….. Add a skinful of grog to that ( before the game – it’s not allowed now to be brought in ) … and you have the perfect recipe for extreme aggro from certain sections of the crowd. ( I don’t include the 13 going on 12 child in that – she was the product of incorrect parenting imo ). … And Adam Goodes made an error in calling her out, which he later apologised for, and then asked that she be supported ).


    The uproar over this has been blown out of all proportion. … Adam Goodes did an aboriginal dance – so bloody what ! … the New Zealanders do a Haka – and everybody watches with delight. … How many times have we seen some form of joy displayed by players on the football field, when they have kicked a goal ? … hundreds – thousands ? Big hugs and slaps on bums, all round … that’s rarely booed. ( unless there are a few homophobics in the crowd who misinterpret it all, and that would be THEIR problem ) … how many times have we seen some form of vilification …. against so many players – ‘white folk’ at that ??.

    While this all has a small element of racism to it, only because Adam is a ‘black fella’ ( which is what they call themselves ) …. it is mainly ignorance and conceit, along with another excuse to behave like idiots – at ‘da footy ‘.

    Don’t get me wrong. … I love a game of football, and in the confines of my own family-room, some of my own comments would not be fit to be aired !! …. but those are to anyone on the field, who I think has been given the wrong penalty, the wrong decision, or has acted like an oaf, by punching at the head of an opponent ( and other similar delightful behaviour on field ). …

    Why can’t the footy minded ( AND the damned MSM ) leave well enough alone – and do what we do when tribunals come around … tribunal decision on Wednesday ( someone gets 3 weeks ) and by Friday, it’s all quite completely forgotten. …. Stiff bikkies is about the only reaction, apart from a grizzle or two …. Don’t believe it even makes it past Thursdays around the water cooler. !!

    The matter should be dropped – like NOW.

  61. Lee

    I’d much rather watch Adam Goodes perform his war dance than listen to the white bogans who chant “Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi oi.”

  62. Annie B

    Excellent link posted by Lee – –

    Should be watched by all … and I hope it is repeated on TV again – and again.

    Waleed put so much straight in that segment.

  63. iggy648

    Just watched a video of the Haka. They slapped their knees and thighs and stuff, but there was no simulated murder. Anyhoo, it’s a simple matter to test the issue. Just need one person with a video camera, and another to carry out the action. Find a group of indigenous people, and get the (white) actor to run at them aggressively (as Adam Goodes did), then simulate firing a rifle at them, followed by the fist pump gesture. See what they do. I wouldn’t do it myself, because I thing the indigenous folk would find it offensive and hurtful. But you could do it. They’d probably turn around and say “Golly,what an interesting cultural dance!”

  64. Kaye Lee


    there are many different forms of the haka as I am sure there are Aboriginal traditional dance. One notable one often performed at the rugby involves a throat slitting gesture. And you seem to be missing the point that simulating shooting a rifle isn’t part of any culture’s traditional dance.

  65. diannaart

    Indeed Kay Lee

    The shooting of rifles is only used in a ritualistic sense at military funerals – which makes a ghoulish sense.

    Part of the hatred is tinged with more than a little jealousy by the racists – Adam Goodes is one of the most superb athletes who is simply beautiful to watch… and the manner in which he conducted himself upon realising a 13 year old girl had called him an ape was the epitome of humane maturity. All in all Adam Goodes is a real man.

  66. Wally

    @mars08 in NZ they wouldn’t call a white bloke Caucasian he would be a Pakia and that wouldn’t be racist because as far as I can tell a white Anglo Saxon male can be called whatever others desire and it will never be considered racist or sexist.

    Pakia. Maori slang: White Man. esp of british descent. looky at that pakia, we gonna eat him. by ragaragaraga

  67. mars08

    Quite the fascinating tale, Wally. So Maori might us a different word than I did to describe caucasians.

    Well …that’s another slender straw you can grab so you can prove…. something or other.

  68. diannaart


    Please wake me if Wally ever manages to prove anything about anything, that is not rhetoric.


  69. mars08

    @diannaart: oh… Wally long ago proved one thing …beyond a doubt.

  70. diannaart


    I am not replying because to do so may appear we are ganging up on Wally for being… um… Wally.

  71. Harquebus

    I have been called a white c___ several times. Several lashes of the whip just to get the feel of it.

  72. Wally

    Of course if you were well travelled and knowledgeable you would have known this.

  73. mars08

    Oh Wally…

    In my time I’ve been called matt salleh, guiri, laowai, gweilo, ang moh, farang, haole and probably some other terms I don’t remember. But always with affection… at least to my face. In my travels I have never been slighted because of my nationality or ethnic background.

    Have you considered that… maybe… those who belittled you were only using “white” as an adjective?

  74. Wally

    @mars08 I think my Pakia comment went right over your head, I don’t find Pakia to be offensive and like Harquebus I have been called much worse and it really doesn’t bother me but call a non Anglo Saxon by any name and it is considered racist. I don’t agree with racism or bullying in any form toward anyone but unfortunately many people make comments online that they would never make face to face.

  75. Annie B

    Funny thing about the word ‘white’ …. it is rarely ever used to define any person. …. The only instance I have known of ( using that word specifically ) is when some call others “white trash” – distinctly American in origin …

    Here we seem to call all bods that don’t please us, or are ‘lower’ in ranking in some opinions, ‘bogans’ or ‘rednecks’ …. and I have absolutely no doubt ( and neither would any of you here ) that the words ‘n____ c__, abbo c__, Paki c__, black bastard c___, is used many times, the world over. …

    This can be the kind of filthy description used towards people that are not agreed with, liked, wanted to be neighbours or people nearby, or are seen as threats because of their colour or origins, etc. — SADLY.

    Also have personal knowledge of a person called ‘ another Australian c___’, ( defined by his accent by onlookers ) because he ( white ) – fueled with an enormous amount of booze & drugs in Barcelona, Spain – in the blink of an eye and for no reason other than the person beaten was not at a meeting place at the agreed time, turned and beat the living daylights out of the other ( white ) Aussie, when he did turn up. … which hurt me very very badly, because the one beaten – and hospitalised, was my own son.

    If nothing else, my son learned to never again, trust anyone, anywhere in the world, who is a boozy soak and into drugs, even if known to him ( which was the case in this instance ). …. In fact, it taught him not to trust anyone open handedly, until he got to know exactly who and what that person is. … My son told me this himself. … Unutterably sad.


    Guess it amounts to the way one is raised, and where they are brought up ( or dragged up ) ?

    Easy to digress here – what of the neighbourhood stoushes that occur ( and make the special news programmes ), showing vile epithets being hurled across the fence – white against white, and some news reporter steps in to be the ‘mediator’ ( which results in a bloody nose, or other damage to the reporter / cameraman, on occasions ? ).

    All marks of complete disrespect, out of control emotions, and aggression – no matter if the recipient / aggravator, is black, white, yellow or bloody purple.

    Was very moved by the Sydney Swans one-word banner this weekend …. RESPECT, and by the instances of other players in other clubs, making ‘dance’ movements in front of the crowds.

    If nothing else, that just MIGHT have ” thems what are on the screaming side of the fence”, shut the hell up.

  76. Wally

    @Annie B the effects of drugs like Ice and synthetic marijuana are hard to fathom, the death of the Adelaide Crows coach by the hand of his own son was extremely hard to comprehend. From the reports I read at the time it is believed that Walsh’s son is an ice addict. Male employees from all departments in our hospitals are being trained to overpower aggressive patients because the problem is so bad.

    Pleased that your son survived his ordeal.

  77. Annie B

    The increasing supply of synthetic drugs on the streets ( anywhere ) … is absolutely terrifying. … And shocking to think that special training has to be given to hospital staff, to deal with these idiots who go down that dangerous drugs track. … I believe that their physical strength becomes quite phenomenal under the influence of some of these vile things.

    And thanks, yes – he survived, but the selfie he took after his release from hospital ( and the Spanish police took pix as well ) were absolutely shocking. …. He was indeed very fortunate. … and in wanting to come home, the airlines ( including Qantas who he’d booked with ) would not accommodate him – because he’d been so badly beaten. …

    It was his father who was willing to pay top $ first class, to the Emirates airline, that got him home. … but Emirates were also extremely good to him, which is a big plus in their favour. …

    Other airlines wouldn’t even come at the top $ offer.

  78. Wally

    @Annie B “Other airlines wouldn’t even come at the top $ offer.” Unfortunately duty of care, OHS and the risk of being sued are far more important nowadays than common sense, decency and doing the right thing. You would think that any concern over issues arising from flying with injuries could be overcome by signing a waiver.

    I certainly think older generations have seen the best that Australia had to offer, no matter how or where you look the world has changed and it hasn’t improved.

  79. Annie B

    Wally – …

    It did occur to me that the other airlines ( including our own ) were protecting their own backsides, in refusing him the valid use of his return ticket home.

    But all kudos to Emirates for doing the right thing. I must ask if they got him to sign a waiver … seems the practical thing to do. Exonerates any airline from responsibility in the case of a situation arising from injury, although I don’t know how ANY airline deals with say, a mid-air heart attack, that could not in any way be foreseen – and that must happen from time to time. … And there are many sportspersons who return from international arenas, with quite severe sports injuries. … No doubt though, with a doctors certificate.

    Come to think of it, he did have the release papers from the hospital, stating his situation and his safety to continue with whatever he was going to do …. etc. …. It was the look of his battered face that was so awful. Perhaps they thought he was a risk, because of his brawl looking injuries. … It was hardly a brawl, was a real KO and a vicious continued beating, until hotel management discovered him in the hallway ,,,, the drunken druggie sot was arrested by Spanish police, in his hotel room, btw.

    And you are right – the world is not improving – so sad to say.

  80. jimmy

    All the while you are arguing a never ending merry go round.
    China is building up its Air forces and Navies in the south china sea and telling our government not to side with the USA.
    So get over your petty political correctness people and start banding together, because it is a far more serious problem than some
    race related argument.

  81. iggy648

    I’ll happily stand corrected if someone can demonstrate to me that the simulated murder (spear throwing) is part of an ancient cultural dance. I thought it was part of a dance made up in the last few months. Either way, I wouldn’t be happy if young indigenous people are being encouraged to simulate murder. I should add that I think Adam Goodes is one of the truly great Australians, for all the reasons that have been pointed out by vast numbers of people. I just think his war dance was perceived by some (including me) as racist. That doesn’t mean he’s a racist. It just means he had a lapse of judgement, or got carried away by the moment or something. But I believe every racist act should be called for what it is, no matter who the protagonist, or what their status. It doesn’t work for me to say that because he’s done so much for his people, and he’s indigenous, therefore he couldn’t possibly do anything which smacks of racism.

  82. Möbius Ecko

    So iggy I guess you constantly get upset when people, including kids, make the hand pistol (finger gun) gesture at others, which to your way of thinking is simulated murder.

    In some cases the finger gun gesture is used as a sign of victory. So wasn’t Goodes using the spear throwing gesture as a sign of victory after kicking a goal in the face of a hostile crowd who were also making gestures at him that can be interpreted as wishing him harm or death.

  83. iggy648

    If white kids repeatedly make the killing gesture at aboriginal kids, then yes.

  84. iggy648

    “Maybe that’s another slender straw you can grab so you can prove…. something or other.” I’m trying to demonstrate that my interpretation of his gestures as racist is as valid as your interpretation that it wasn’t. You’ll have to explain the significance of the caucasian doing the throat cutting gesture is. I don’t get it.

  85. Kaye Lee

  86. Kaye Lee

    Goodes denied his Indigenous dance was in retaliation to abuse from Carlton supporters at the SCG.

    ‘Nah not at all mate,’ Goodes said when asked if it was in response to anything.

    ‘It’s Indigenous Round and I’m proud to be Aboriginal, so I’m representing.

    ‘It was inspired from the U16 Boomerang kids who taught us a bit of a war cry so it was a little tribute to those guys.’

  87. diannaart

    Of course your evidence is compelling, Kaye Lee – actual First People performing ritual war-dance at the beginning of a sporting contest… however, you are presenting facts FFS!

    The final decision on anything is to be made by a white person, like Iggy – coz they’re…. um… white so they are the arbiters of anything, um… not-white – which makes perfect sense in Bizarro World.

  88. Anon E Mouse

    Apparently, it was not an imaginary spear. It was an imaginary boomerang.

    Hint ‘It was inspired from the U16 Boomerang kids who taught us a bit of a war cry so it was a little tribute to those guys.’

    This would be so funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

    A mob of white people getting hurt and outraged by an imaginary boomerang that they thought was an imaginary spear. I wonder if their hurt feelings are also imaginary – used as a cover for their naked bigotry.

  89. mars08

    Goodes pretended to throw an air spear in the general direction of the crowd… after scoring in an AFL “indigenous” round game. And that’s proof that it was a racist act? Ah, maybe it was… maybe he was aiming at that Vietnamese guy in the third row…

    Or maybe you are grabbing at air straws now.

  90. Rossleigh

    Whatever, I still have trouble accepting the idea that West Coast supporters were “booing” him because he threw an imaginary boomerang which they thought was a spear at CARLTON supporters.
    That has as much credibility as suggesting that if Labor Party supporters started booing Bronwyn Bishop, it was because of the contempt with which she treated the Liberal Party by taking so long to stand down as speaker.

  91. Kaye Lee

    A lot of the discussion around this incident has been about if an action can be considered racist if, regardless of the intention, the other person took it that way. One side, Adam Goodes’, has suffered racial taunts and discrimination all of their lives. The other, the crowd, showed a distinct lack of cultural awareness. Adam Goodes, as Australian of the Year, showed his pride in his Aboriginality and also a tribute to the under 16 kids. We took our Indigenous people’s pride away and now we get angry if they dare to show any. Don’t judge his actions through white eyes. We are the aggressors, not him.

  92. mars08

    “…an action can be considered racist if, regardless of the intention, the other person took it that way.”

    I suppose it would have to depend on the gesture and the context in which it was made.

  93. Kyran

    A white fella, who recently met with representatives of our First People and the LOTO with the intent of formulating a bipartisan agenda for Constitutional reform to respect our First People, has changed his mind. He no longer thinks the First People should have too much input.
    A proud, indigenous athlete, returns to training after taking time off due to the constant taunts of the crowds and resultant media scrutiny.

    I am more than happy to say I value one’s integrity over the other’s. One has proven by his actions he is more than worthy of being called a leader. The other one is nothing more than rabid. Take care

  94. Wally

    We place far too much emphasis on the sex or race of people who are the victims when we decide if something is ok or not. Our society particularly younger people lack respect and consideration for other people full stop. I was raised to respect the elderly, woman, teachers, police, friends and strangers regardless of their race.

  95. Kaye Lee

    Spoken like a white male. Unless you have experienced discrimination you cannot understand. As an adolescent I got heartily sick of men speaking to my breasts. “Tits a lovely day” was considered hilarious but for a young girl it’s humiliating. I was entered into the Youth of the Year Quest but told, even if I won my district (which I did in the public speaking section), the boy who came second would go on to represent our area at the state finals – that was the Lions Club for you. When I went to university, at my first economics tutorial they asked us all to introduce ourselves and tell where we came from. When I mentioned the school I had gone to the tutor said “well haven’t you done well to get to university.” At parent-teacher night I was told by fathers “my maths teachers never looked like you”. My boyfriend worked in a public bar. I went to pick him up and they wouldn’t let me in to tell him I was there. The first time we went for a housing loan we were knocked back because they refused to count my wage because I was “married and of child-bearing age.” I have been told how much better I would look if only I would dye my hair and wear make-up – “You’ll feel so much better about yourself.” I could go on…and on….and on….

    Let me tell you, sex and race makes a difference. Wally, I think you are probably a decent man. But perhaps you do not fully understand the consequences of discrimination to the person who endures it. It is much more common, more insidious, more entrenched than you realise.

  96. Florence nee Fedup

    Why can’t one believe what the man said. Last night was example similar dance with a spear action in it. completely different from what Goode did. The dancer held a spear in his right hand. His left arm was held neck high across the body. The spear rested on left arm. Motion made with right hand to pull spear back for throwing. Either way, it is a dance of pride and celebration.

    Kaye with discrimination goes a feeling of hopeless because there is no way one can retaliate.

  97. Kaye Lee


    I am lucky. I have always had the support of those around me so I never felt that hopelessness but I have worked with many kids who did not have that support. I have seen single parents struggling so hard, trying to do their best. I have known Aboriginal people who refused the handouts because they gave people an excuse to denigrate them.

  98. Kaye Lee


    Very astute list….though I do sometimes feel when I speak up that my gender is on trial. I don’t let that stop me as you have no doubt noticed 😉

  99. mars08

    hahahaha… Yeh, I have noticed that, Kaye Lee. Some unkind souls might say that you’re “uppity”. But I think you are a credit to your gender (see point #14)… Cheers.

  100. Kaye Lee

    I cannot in any way be considered representative of anything but myself. And yes, many people consider me uppity…especially my poor teachers.

  101. Wally

    @Kaye Lee Discrimination does not only affect females, people who do not have white skin, fat people and people with disabilities. I honestly believe there are very few people in Australia who have not been the subject of discrimination in some form at some stage in their life and I do not believe discrimination of any type is acceptable.

    If we teach people to respect each other regardless of the differences between them our society would be much better off. While we put so much emphasis on being politically correct the broader issues are overlooked and in many ways they undermine the areas such as racism and sexism where a concerted effort has been undertaken.

    How do you expect a kid to grow up to respect woman if they are not taught to respect their elders, older woman in particular? If students are allowed to be disrespectful to each other how do you teach them not to be prejudice toward a child with a disability? They call Ben names because he has a big head so why shouldn’t they call Jim who wears callipers a spastic? Then comes the problem of educating the kids why they shouldn’t treat Jim badly without being prejudice in the process.

    If we want a better world to live in we need to educate a broader audience about the entire spectrum of discrimination.

    And I too have been a victim of discrimination particularly when I was younger.

  102. Kaye Lee

    I understand your point Wally. I considered it my duty as a parent to raise compassionate, tolerant, resilient children.

    But not everybody is strong. Not everyone has support. Not everyone has the skills to ignore the rubbish. And for that reason, I will continue to call out discrimination and bullying wherever I see it. My children are firmly convinced that I will be stabbed one day because I break up fights when I can – too many years in the playground to be able to ignore it. I agree that respect is crucially important but that must include respect for difference. What you call “politically correct” I call empathy for the other person.

  103. Wally

    @Kaye Lee I have no doubt you would instil good values into your children, it is evident in your articles that you do care about people.

    I often wonder why some parents cannot even manage to teach their kids good manners but when you read articles like the link below you realise how and why our society is changing for the worse. The article squarely lays the blame on the government policies and the effect bad policies have had on Australian workers. I have pasted the link and the article, unsure if it is accessible without a subscription.

    WHEN Dennis Glover was a kid the old saying ‘a fair go’ was a reality.

    Living in Doveton, a suburb in Melbourne’s southeast, in the 1960s and 70s his parents both worked at the Heinz factory and he worked there on school holidays.

    His family, like those of his friends and neighbours, was working class but with three jobs going for every household, nobody was poor.

    HAVE YOUR SAY: What can be done to save Doveton? Tell us below.

    RELATED: Doveton still one of the state’s most disadvantaged towns.

    In the 1980s the factories closed with some moving operations overseas.

    Now there are five households for every one job and the suburb’s unemployment rate has jumped to 21 per cent; more than three times the national average.

    Just a handful of people work in the warehouses that used to teem with thousands of people.

    Dr Glover’s old house has become a dumping ground for rusted cars and crime is common on the street where he and his mates used to play cricket on the road.

    Located just east of Dandenong, Doveton was created as a suburb to house the factory workers so when they closed down unemployment skyrocketed.

    The academic and former political speechwriter’s new book, An Economy is Not a Society, is about growing up in Doveton and its ruin.

    The suggestion to write it came after an essay he wrote in 2014 about Doveton where he compared it to Detroit, the troubled American city that fell similarly after the closure of automotive factories there.

    Dr Glover spoke with a number of people in Doveton while writing the book and also attended a reunion for people who worked at the Heinz factory.

    He said while his family and his peers were working class they were all able to move up socially, something he said was out of reach for many of Doveton’s youth now.

    “I wrote it because I was mad as hell,” he said.

    “In my generation just about everyone I know went to university or got a senior TAFE qualification.

    “We were working class; we weren’t poor but it was easier for us to get ahead.

    “Just talking to teachers and principals they told me they … do not have high hopes.

    “Almost all the kids are from troubled families, there are a lot of social problems and these kids will find it very difficult to complete 12 years of school and then go on to something better.”

    Dr Glover said he still believed Doveton could be saved, not by gentrification but by government intervention and corporate responsibility.

    He said the government allowed car manufacturers to cease operations in Victoria when the dollar was high but that decision had proven premature as the dollar had since fallen.

    “Companies get a lot of public subsidies and other money over the years and they should have exercised better judgment,” he said.

    “But also you cannot really blame the companies because they have to think about the bottom line. The government let a lot of factories shut without doing much to keep them open.”


    City of Casey councillor Damien Rosario agreed with some points Mr Glover had made but said Doveton was improving and he believed it would continue to do so.

    Cr Rosario, who lived in Doveton in the 1980s, said migrant families were moving to Doveton as Dandenong filled up, there had been beautification works in areas such as Autumn Place and investment in floodlights at Power Reserve, which allowed young people to take part in sports and social activities at night.

    He said new residents had proven to be more community-minded as more than 120 people wrote to him last year asking the council to upgrade and expand the suburb’s playgrounds and parks.

    “We have lost that (prosperity of the 60s and 70s) but it can come back again, new opportunities can be generated,” he said.

    “New families coming into the area have revitalised the area, new people are doing new things and they take advantage of the opportunities they have.

    “It irks me when people say ‘oh Doveton is a forgotten place’ because … Doveton is changing and it has huge potential.

    “In the last year I think it was, Doveton house prices shot up 15 per cent, which is a testament to the value of where it’s headed.”


    The 2015 Dropping Off The Edge report by Jesuit Social Services and Catholic Social Services Australia named Doveton one of Victoria’s top seven struggle towns based on unemployment, criminal convictions, family violence and low education.

    Doveton was ranked in “band one” — the most disadvantaged category — a worse result than the last time the report was conducted in 2007, when it was in “band two”.

    This is despite the Bracks government funnelling millions into the suburb through its Neighbourhood Renewal project between 2003 and 2011 to improve public housing, community safety and job and training opportunities.

    Jenny Davis last week defended the suburb she has called home for more than three decades.

    The Doveton Eagles Football Club president said that when she first moved to Doveton she had been terrified of the town’s tough reputation, but the area had become much quieter and calmer in the past few decades.

    Ms Davis said her son and daughter grew up in Doveton and now had their own families and successful businesses.

    “I do not think it’s a violent place any more,” Ms Davis said.

    “It’s a great town with terrific people.”

    But Ms Davis said more should be done to help Doveton’s disadvantaged, particularly public housing tenants.

    The existing public housing was awful to look at and rarely repaired, which affected morale, she said.

    “They just need to make it look like a nice town; people get depressed when they see the commission housing.

    “There are definitely no jobs.

    “My granddaughter works with my son in his business and that’s not her choice but there are no others which she can get.”

    Dandenong state Labor MP Gabrielle Williams said the Government was still trying to help Doveton.

    “Whether it is the commitment to create 100,000 jobs through our Back to Work program, our investment in local microfinance ventures to give people affordable access to everyday essentials, or our $320 million TAFE Rescue Fund to get people the training they need to find work, we are helping to create jobs, give people more security and build better communities,” Ms Williams said last week.

    “Nobody likes these statistics, and we must remember that behind them are real people, real stories of struggle.

    “I am listening to these stories and will do all I can to ensure Doveton thrives into the future.”

    An Economy is Not a Society will be launched on August 6 at the Hill of Content, 86 Bourke St, Melbourne. RSVP

  104. Annie B

    @ Iggy648 — Re :

    “I’ll happily stand corrected if someone can demonstrate to me that the simulated murder (spear throwing) is part of an ancient cultural dance. I thought it was part of a dance made up in the last few months. Either way, I wouldn’t be happy if young indigenous people are being encouraged to simulate murder.”

    While you did follow this comment with plaudits for Adam Goodes, … your comment ( in italics ) above is totally off the mark. …. and I think you were hedging your bets, making both those remarks.

    It is not at all plausible, that the ‘dance’ was ” made up in the last few months” . …. I am hoping against hope, that you were being sarcastic in that comment, but I somehow doubt it.

    And – Iggy648 …. I don’t believe anyone has to demonstrate anything whatsoever, to you …

    As for ‘ young indigenous people being encouraged to simulate murder ( murder ?? ) … if that concerns you so much, then you must boycott, picket and object in writing strenuously to, any store that sells toys – because you would find in those stores, many many items that relate to aggression and outright ‘murder’, toy guns, toy spears, bows & arrows, and an enormous array of game DVD’s that depict killing and horrific acts, in much gory detail. … And these too fall into the hands of the young and very young.

    Lastly, you actually do not know whether the gestures made by Goodes, were ‘simulated murder ( spear throwing )’ … or not – ” and part of an ancient cultural dance ” – or not . … You are not indigenous ( I presume !! ) … and therefore could not interpret it any way that is meaningful. …

    And neither could we.


    It has been presumed, that what Adam Goodes did was a ‘war’ dance. …. Let’s just drop the ‘war’ bit, and see it as an indigenous dance full stop – ( and a very very small part of it btw – about 3 seconds worth !! ) …. for whatever reason Goodes did it in the first place. … Considering that elaborate ‘gestures’ are made – on stage, in TV sit-coms / series, in films of all calibre, in concerts, in re-enactments et al … are we REALLY going to sit down and analyse / dissect all of these as well ?? ….

    Boy, are we going to be busy little vegemites, if we go down that track.

    [ Football ( sports in general ) is after all a show / display / game of skill … conducted for the enjoyment of many, and of many paying patrons at the ground. Much that happens on a football / rugby field, is done for ‘display ‘ … and none of it is choreographed !! ]


    Maybe we should all jump OFF the band wagon, and while doing so, recall that many AFL players, ‘performed’ a dance of some description last weekend during their matches … which was obvious – done to support Adam Goodes and to make fun of the rabble element in the crowd, who might have again had the inclinations to bully and scream abuse from the sidelines, of their indignation at any ‘coloured’ person – performing ANY bloody thing – anywhere !!!.

    btw … while here, what is the difference between racism and bullying …….. just askin’ !!

  105. jimmy

    good lord
    I forgot only white people are racists

  106. jimhaz

    That list Mars linked to is a load of hogwash – it could apply to any minority of people in any country and a lot of points don’t truly relate to racism or are repetitive or not current. As it is half true it just It needs downsizing so that it is not so easily dismissed.

  107. Anon E Mouse

    Jimmy, when white people are the sole arbiters of what is, or isn’t racist: when they hold control over resources, laws etc., and they are bigotted against race – then I guess they are racists.

    When denial of racism is used by white people, as per the Goodes case, is simply to avoid confronting the structural and social controls they weild against those who are a different ‘race’ or ethnicity than themselves – then they are racist.

    Racism manifests itself in many forms, overt and covert. A highly positioned white South African man once told me that he was simply astounded at the sophisticated level of racism in Australia towards Indigenous Australians. Apparently in the company he now works, despite them saying all the inclusion/respect type things, racism is so prevelant and it is used to lock Indigenous people out of employment, career advancement, and service.

    So I guess, because ‘white’ people have the stranglehold on control, and has been amply demonstrated, even if unintentional – in Australia many white people are racist.

    If people don’t like the thought of being considered racist, it is a simple matter of becoming informed, developing some empathy, and reflecting on the issue, and they can grow out of it.

    Racism certainly seems to be a lifestyle choice for many white Australians.

  108. diannaart

    Hmmm, when being lectured to (which happened more often when young than now – I am blonde) I would consider who held the balance of power. For example, a wealthy white male – needs to be treated with a high degree of scepticism, almost the same for wealthy white female, poor white men are discriminated by aforementioned wealthy whites, although wealthy black men are often given the same status as wealthy white women – gets complicated, but humans do have a pecking order and at present, the ones on top are, primarily, wealthy white men – everyone is held against this ‘value’, hardly an ideal, but, so it goes.

    To cut to the chase, yes white males do get discriminated against if they are not in the top 1% of the power pyramid. Boo bloody hoo.

    How else to explain the importance granted to such a complete knob like Donald Trump?

  109. Jimmy

    More ignorance than racism.
    Other cultures are just as if not more racist than white man.
    There are quite a lot of aboriginal people who openly admit they detest the white man, for various reasons I know you will reply to.
    But is that not racist also.
    Not Australia day but invasion day.
    So if thousands of Australians ,New Zealanders British, American, Canadian, New Guinea tribes men had not given up their lives
    and Japan had won the war, I suppose Adam Goodes and his people also any one non white would far better off than they are today.

  110. Wally

    @Anon E Mouse unfortunately just like white people many indigenous leaders who control the wealth do not put the best interests of the silent majority first. I worked in Gove for a couple of months after the dispute over control of the mining royalties. I found it very hard to understand how 1 family could be so rich and influential while other families who were entitled to royalties had nothing.

    I found the indigenous people to be extremely friendly, particularly at Yirrkala. A friend and I attended the AFL grand final held at Yirrkala a neutral ground. The opening address was in native tongue and one of the elders translated every word for us and we felt more than welcome. To see kids, dogs and cars painted in team colours is a spectacle everyone should see and a memory I will never forget.

    GALARRWUY Yunupingu, the Northern Territory’s most powerful black leader, is at the centre of a deep family rift over millions of dollars in mining royalties.

    Many of his own clan, in their remote coastal homelands 600km east of Darwin, live in squalid and impoverished conditions while Mr Yunupingu has the use of a helicopter, four houses and a fleet of cars, including a Range Rover.

  111. Anon E Mouse

    Jimmy, your understanding appears to be minimal. If you choose to remain ignorant that is your choice.

    I do note that you carefully omit the many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders who fought in Australia’s wars – when they were not even considered citizens. Indigenous Australians have fought and died in all wars Australia involved itself in, from the Boer war to the present. Leaving this fact out reflects poorly on your intent in this discussion.

    Wally, your comment is off topic. I have no knowledge of the issues you raise, and would not comment here if I did, but it is not racism in action but greed. Greed can inflict any creed, but some are useful to the dominant social structure so they get more opportunity to fleece others.

  112. Annie B

    Jimmy …

    Yes, I will reply …

    Ignorance for sure, is behind much of racism … but the fact is we are ALL most likely racist in some form or another. A simple ‘google’ of the meaning brings up :

    ” the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.” which I believe, just about sums it up.

    If one compares the situation of indigenous peoples of Australia, and those people of Australia who call themselves ‘white’ ( and that’s debatable, given the ethnic heredity of many Aussies, these days ) … there is no doubt in my mind that the indigenous peoples have much more to complain about, than the so called ‘whites’. … So yes, they could be called racist – but I would think angry and maligned, more to the point. … And history will show that they were in fact ‘invaded’. …. Is it right to call Australia Day, “Invasion Day” ? … for some, yes – to others no. … and to many, the actual meaning for the holiday, escapes notice altogether – it’s just another day off work – – ” yaaay “.

    There is a difference between being outright racist, and being angry at how one / or all in a group, is treated.

    For the sake of debate, I admit to being racist myself, in a strange way. … which was in fact against a race of white people. …. i.e. an ethnicity, a group of people who live in a specific country. … I am completely past this now, thankfully, but when much younger, I loathed all German people and spoke out about that – basing my absolute dislike of them, mainly on history of the World Wars, what they did to Jewish people, and how they tried to racially portray themselves as superior — even to experimenting in producing a ‘super’ race of ‘whites’ … with specific qualities – called the Aryan race. … This “Aryanization” had it’s roots way WAY back before the Nazi’s leaped upon it as a means to establish superiority – which was their aim. …

    That then, was my ‘racism’.

    So – perhaps all – or a great percentage of us, are truly ‘racist’, in one form or another. … think about it – honestly.

    ‘Racist’ or ‘Racism’ are subjective words, thrown about with abandon these days.

    Racism is an intense dislike, even hatred of ‘people who are different to us’ … it is as simple as that, and not confined exclusively to colour or creed.


    The intent behind your final sentence – about what might have been, if Japan had won the war in the Pacific – is obscure. I cannot, nor do I wish to try, to work that one out !!!

    However, indigenous people from Australia ( and no doubt the other nations you mentioned ) were involved in, and fought for, their countries in that and other theatres of war. … Certainly many aboriginals did.

  113. Jimmy understanding is minimal . You should read your own posts.
    I have serious doubts about your understanding of anything at all besides your blind sided, blinkered views.
    Seems to be the same group on here with the same views rolling out the same old tried and true rhetorical answers.
    Quite the mutual admiration society. Not hard to work that one out Annie.
    There is no doubt and I never said there was about aboriginal or Torres people fighting in our armies.
    So my point had to be taken out of context and be told by all and sundry that indigenous folk also fought, were they not Australians as I mentioned. Exactly the answers I expected.
    Without the help of the nations that I mentioned the Japanese would have walked right over the top of us.
    Then it would have been a different Australia than we know today. Ask the Changi or Burmese railway survivors.
    Your views on racism are one sided.
    The arbiters you mention are the same ones who pass laws to stop racism and persecution.
    I work and play sport with people from many countries and cultures. Have heard comments like you white shit filth, pasty shit bags, stupid white arseholes, and many more. But I suppose that is not racist, just a point of view.
    I have nothing at all against aboriginal people whatsoever and think they have the greatest sense of humour I have found. Scotland comes close.
    White overlords as you call us, are even racist to our own kind. Look at Britain with the catholic, protestant carry on. Pure hatred for even their own relatives. Hatred for people from the next county because they had different accents. Not to mention Maggie with her hated of things working class. Muslims with different beliefs have hatred for each other. Same as Indian cultures.
    So open your eyes and see this is not just a white Australian bogan, bigoted ignorant Aussie as you all seem to pigeonhole anyone with a differing view with problem. An aboriginal child born today will have far more opportunity than a white one will and so be it.
    Called paying the rent is it not.

    I have no intent Anon, and I can work things out for myself Annie.
    Ignorance indeed.

  114. diannaart


    An aboriginal child born today will have far more opportunity than a white one will and so be it.

    Evidence, please.

    All I see is the continuation of dispossession of First Nation people from their lands, culture and sense of worth.

    Patrick Dodson, the Father of Reconciliation, asks the direct question that non-Indigenous Australia needs to answer not only in words, but also in actions:

    Does Australia want to have a relationship with Aboriginal people, or does it not? Or does it simply want to improve the management and control systems over the lives of Aboriginal people? That’s the seminal issue.

  115. Annie B

    Jimmy …

    Re : ” Quite the mutual admiration society. Not hard to work that one out Annie. ” ,,,,

    ????????? …. I have absolutely NO idea what you mean, what you are talking about.

    I gather you are relatively new to this site – or perhaps you have forgotten, if not new ? … that many people here disagree with one another, and there is no mutual admiration society goes on here !! …. Even if we all have similar political leanings, we still debate, argue and toss around ideas – and on some occasions things become very willing indeed – to the point of downright nastiness.

    I am sure you can work things out for yourself – as we all can and should always endeavour to do. …

    I could go on, picking out some of your most recent points, but decline – so – no further comment.

    You can make of THAT, what you wish. !!!

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