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Trump’s Chief Strategist: I want to bring everything crashing down

In a revealing 2013 interview with The Daily Beast, US President Donald Trump’s Chief Strategist and Senior Counselor, Steve Bannon, gives insight into his long-term goals:

He never called himself a “populist” or an “American nationalist,” as so many think of him today. “I’m a Leninist,” Bannon proudly proclaimed. Shocked, I asked him what he meant.
“Lenin,” he answered, “wanted to destroy the state, and that’s my goal too. I want to bring everything crashing down, and destroy all of today’s establishment.” Bannon was employing Lenin’s strategy for Tea Party populist goals. He included in that group the Republican and Democratic Parties, as well as the traditional conservative press…

His goal was to bring down the entire establishment including the leaders of the Republican Party in Congress.

The relationship between Donald Trump and Steve Bannon is an unholy alliance, in which the shared goal is the destruction of institutions, and the undermining of the authority of traditional agents of governance and administration in the US. Their actions thus far have led to the country to the brink of a constitutional crisis, provoked by the refusal of the executive to honour the rule of law when Customs and Border Protection agents refused lawyers access to illegally detained travellers from Trump’s List of Seven countries, in spite of a federal judge determining that they must be permitted to enter the US.

The Department of Homeland Security issued a statement undertaking to both obey the President’s Executive Orders, and judicial orders, which led to reminders that employees of the agency swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, not to support the President of the day.

After less than a week, Bannon and Trump have thrown the country into chaos, using executive orders that have bypassed all consultation with relevant departments.

Trump has now granted Bannon regular access to meetings of the National Security Council, where matters of security are discussed at the highest level. Trump has ousted generals from their regular seats on the Council.

Bannon could not be in a better position to “bring everything crashing down” and not only in the US. The global repercussions of Trump’s Muslim travel ban have included causing Emirates to entirely reschedule its staffing to avoid employees from Trump’s List of Seven arriving as flight crew on US-bound aircraft, and being forbidden to enter the country for their regular stop overs.

Far more serious are the hundreds of stories emerging of the distress and confusion faced by those arriving in the US and being detained, and those being refused carriage to the US, separating them from homes, families and work. Dual citizens in many western countries have been affected by the bans. Bannon is causing chaos far beyond the shores of the US, and it’s taken less than a week.

Today in Australia Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, Foreign Minister Julie Bishop, and former Immigration Minister Scott Morrison all supported Trump’s actions against Muslims, with Turnbull suggesting that Trump is emulating Australian policies on border protection, and Morrison claiming Trump is following Australia’s lead in these matters. Australia’s politicians, along with Israel’s Benjamin Netanyahu, stand out in their support of Trump in an otherwise global condemnation of the President’s actions.

The desire to “bring everything crashing down” is an apocalyptic fantasy that in psychoanalytic terms is an expression of narcissistic rage. It resembles the tantrums of young children when they are thwarted and hurt. It continues into adulthood in those who have been unable to mature beyond the desire to destroy anything or anyone perceived to be a threat or an obstacle. The perceived damage to self-worth and self-esteem results in cataclysmic acting out, the objective being revenge and empowerment, achieved through the destruction and mastery of others.

Both Bannon and Trump appear to display more than their fair share of these tendencies. One is the leader of the western world. The other is his most influential advisor. Between them, they have the power to bring not only the US system of governance crashing down, but, in the worst case scenario, as they have the nuclear codes, the world.

Our government has given them its wholehearted support, in so doing making this country a prime terrorist target, as one of the few allies of the US in this matter.

I can only imagine what it must be like to be Muslim in Australia today. Living in a country in which your own government has allied itself with Trump, and believes Trump’s “Muslim ban” is merely a copycat version of what it has itself already achieved.

This article was originally published on No Place For Sheep.

 


179 comments

  1. Kronomex

    Everything I’ve seen and read about Bannon leads me to one conclusion: Dangerous fanatic.

  2. Robyn Dunphy

    I’m with Kronomex. Yes, Jen, I wouldn’t feel too wonderful at the moment if I were a Muslim in Australia. I expected more from our PM and Foreign Minister – but why I did, I have no idea.

  3. helvityni

    Robyn, I never had any respect for Bishop, nor for Abbott, I knew what they were like from the long Howard years.

    I too was rejoicing when Turnbull became our PM. Not for long though, I think my elation was more related to getting rid of Abbott., rather than gaining Turnbull…

  4. Harquebus

    Do we try to save a decrepit, corrupt, unjust, unfair, destructive and unsustainable world or do we let it crash and burn in order to rebuild something better? Is it possible make anything decent out this ***t hand that we’ve been dealt?
    Letting it crash and burn might be our only hope.
    Cheers.

  5. Keitha Granville

    DT is rapidly polarising the planet – if you identify as Muslim, or with Muslims – then you are not his friend. With this lunatic advising there is not a lot of hope.
    If he decides to open the cover on the nuclear buttons, will anyone be able to stop him ?
    Our PM has become a national disgrace, just like his predecessot.

  6. Kaye Lee

    A former climate change adviser to Donald Trump has said the US President will pull America out of the landmark Paris agreement and an executive order on the issue could come within “days”.

    Myron Ebell, who took charge of Mr Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) transition team, said the President was determined to undo policies pushed by Barack Obama to restrict greenhouse gas emissions.

    He said the US would “clearly change its course on climate policy” under the new administration and claimed Mr Trump was “pretty clear that the problem or the crisis has been overblown and overstated”.

    “I expect Donald Trump to be very assiduous in keeping his promises, despite all of the flack he is going to get from his opponents,” he told a briefing in London.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-paris-climate-change-deal-myron-ebell-us-president-america-pull-out-agreement-a7553676.html

    “Mr Ebell admitted he had not met Mr Trump “……… beyond ridiculous

  7. Miriam English

    Oh, it’s much worse, Jennifer. There’s this disturbing talk he gave via Skype to a conference with some of the most conservative Catholics in the Vatican, where he apparently wants a holy war to cleanse the world of other religions, and in particular, Islam. He speaks of increasing secularism as a threat as well, so perhaps he would extend his holy war to atheists too.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfeder/this-is-how-steve-bannon-sees-the-entire-world

    Harquebus, the world looks bad if you concentrate on paranoid websites and the sensationalist mainstream media, but they are giving you precisely the wrong picture. Things are generally getting better, with more peace, less violence, decreasing poverty, increasing knowledge. Things are not just going to shit. Sure, bad things are happening, but not as much as in previous decades and centuries. By destroying everything we wreck all the gains made. Bannon believes all the bullshit he spews out on Breitbart. He is deluded by his own racism and love of loony conspiracy theories.

  8. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    The world looks good when you concentrate on unrealistic techno solutions and the blurb put out by the FSM. (Fake Stream Media formerly MSM)
    Cheers.

  9. Klaus

    If I was Trump, and I think he is below any worthwhile standard in human interaction, I would simply say: “You Aussies, clean out your own shit backyard before complaining to me. You are the ones who illegally detain asylum seekers, you are the ones that commit international crime against legal refugees. WTF are you whinging about my modest measures to make America great again and to keep Americans safe?? Clean up your own act, then talk to me, if you must. You rotten to the core scoundrels!”

    Once we have cleaned up, then Trump will no longer be in office. The -then- state of USA/World, I hesitate contemplating about.

  10. Jaquix

    A truly scary time. Saw an American protestor’s placard which said “AMERICAN NIGHTMARE DAY 9”. Turnbull & May give craven performances in response to this immigration overkill exercise, Justin Trudeau gives an inspiring one standing up to the bully boy, despite living “next door” and with just as much involvement in trade.

  11. Ill fares the land

    I doubt that anything good would arise out of the “ashes” or “remnants of the current world. Crashing and burning invariably only means leaving the weak to fend for themselves, so the rich and powerful now, will continue to be rich and powerful; only they will have even fewer restrictions over what they do, so they will be able to plunder, rape and pillage in pursuit of even greater wealth.

    This is the politics of hate, inciting those who are on the cusp of hate and those who already hate to hate even more. The psychology of hatred is that it needs a target to vent upon – all that rage has to be focused on something..

    Typically, those who hate have carried that torch for a long time – they harboured hatred as children and have translated that hatred into some vague cloud of anger as adults.

    But fools like Bannon and Trump, filled with hatred as they are, are able to focus the hatred of the many with inane and simple messages and while what they describe is nothing more or less than despotic tyranny, the Trump supporters will be going – “yeah; we gotta keeps those goddamn Muslim terrorists out of Amarka – and those Muslims; well they are all terrorists, aren’t they. That Mr Trump is looking out for me – he’s our man”. The really crazy part is that he is probably gaining greater support amongst his voter base. How this won’t incite further radicalism within and without America seems not to be something they have thought too much about.

    This is Hanson’s technique as well – though she isn’t smart enough to be more targeted, so she just rails against the things she personally hates and this gives a voice to the mindless hatred and anger of the unthinking disaffected. Note how her target has changed – yesterday she hated the indigenous and Asians. Today she hates Muslims. Tomorrow she will hate someone else – it will be thus with Trump and Bannon. Those hatreds are life long and they rarely diminish. One real danger is that invariably, the nonsense they spout usually has a kernel of truth, even if buried, so it becomes much harder to resoundingly crush their arguments with intellect. Opinion will generally win over intellect in our modern world and in fact any time intellect looks like winning over opinion, those filled with hatred will respond with violence – they will lash out, because the basis of their persona is then challenged and they will fight that to the death. Tell someone who is mad about a Holden that his car is crap and the response is generally going to be aggressive.

    What is worse is that I wonder if Bannon really knows what he means when he says “the Establishment”. He possibly just means anyone who has more power and money than he does – these are people he despises, presumably because he is convinced that he is locked out of that level of privilege and he deserves access. How two such neurotic people have been given the keys to the US military arsenal simply beggars our capacity to understand just how stupid at least 50% of the world is.

  12. Ricardo29

    I’m not quite with Harquebus but believe Miriam English, that the world is only marginally in a better place. We still have millions living in poverty or under religious and political despots, globalisation has seen corporations becone not only immensely and unfairly wealthy, but beyond the abities of willing governments (where are they?) to rein them in. Many of these corporations are the ones that are destroying the environment, creating climate change and supporting military aggression to the detriment of a vast swathe of people who seek only to live in peace and harmony, enjoy satisfying work which earns them enough money to feed, clothe and house themselves, and to be able to look forward to a better and more equitable world for their children and grandchildren.

  13. Klaus

    Ricardo29, the people on Manus and Nauru fall into the vast swathe of people……

  14. Miriam English

    Harquebus, the mainstream media has long led a shallow sensationalist war upon our optimism. I don’t bother with them. I turn to scientific studies of how things are changing, and they really are improving. Of course Trump and Bannon can change that. You seem to be leading that charge to fear everything too. Burn it all? Are you kidding? The last time that happened the world endured a thousand years of dark ages… and they didn’t have nuclear weapons back then.

    Let’s instead counter the fear-mongers and tell the truth about the good and bad things.

    As for “unrealistic techno-solutions”, you are typing on one of those right now. It is amazing how close in viewpoint you are to many religious extremists. You decry technology, yet are quick to use it. You see only apocalypse and seem to fear and welcome it at the same time, in fact you openly advocate for it. (“Letting it crash and burn might be our only hope.”)

  15. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Jennifer. Excellent and scary observatons. I was particularly struck by this paragraph: ‘The desire to “bring everything crashing down” is an apocalyptic fantasy that in psychoanalytic terms is an expression of narcissistic rage. It resembles the tantrums of young children when they are thwarted and hurt. It continues into adulthood in those who have been unable to mature beyond the desire to destroy anything or anyone perceived to be a threat or an obstacle. The perceived damage to self-worth and self-esteem results in cataclysmic acting out, the objective being revenge and empowerment, achieved through the destruction and mastery of others.’

    We have been seeing a lot of this kind of bringing ‘everythng crashing down’ lately – even in these pages.

    Ill fares the land, Thank you for your very sensible, measured comment.

    Miriam, thanks for the heads-up re. the Vatican. I’m off to have a look!

  16. stephentardrew

    This right wing neo-fascist religious fundamentalist takeover was inevitable with the complicity of the media and corptocracy.

    Better now than later.

    The sooner this insanity is confronted the better.

    The longer it goes on the more people who will suffer.

    Let the games begin.

    Let’s hope the power of good and moral probity is up to the task.

    We live in twisted times.

  17. Gary

    I’m not sure that the reference to computers and the internet is a great example of a techno solution that is going to save us. I agree it has given many benefits, but has this technology been turned against us by purveyors of fake news and extremists on social media to give us the likes of Bannon, Trump etc?

  18. Miriam English

    Gary, there have always been people ready to lie to us. In previous times it was extremely difficult to tell if our only news source was a mere mess of lies. They previously got away with hyping up wars so that people trooped off joyously to take part in war. Now we have diverse inputs and can see them for what they are. Yes there are people who are happy to lie and mislead, but now we also have increasing numbers of other sources (such as AIMN) that tell the other side and kick out the fragile underpinnings of big lies.

    We have projects such as Archive.org which keeps a amassive archive of the web so that politicians can’t change the truth by simply deleting pages. We have Wikipedia/Wikiversity/Wikibooks/Wikimedia/Wikinews which tries to give reliable access to information for all people (at least, those with internet access). We have other projects which try to make available all the world’s heritage of (out of copyright) books as texts (Project Gutenberg), audio (LibriVox), and text, audio, and video (Archive.org). There is also a large movement to make educational textbooks, lectures (video/audio), and original scientific research papers all available for free.

    Our psychology has been formed by evolution to be hyper-aware of bad things, even when they are actually dwarfed by good things. The reason for this is easy to understand — being alert to a tiger waiting in the bushes had more immediate impact upon your survival than learning to read. But things have changed. Now the very thing which helped us survive is actually threatening our survival: our predisposition to fear. Now good things have far greater impact upon our lives than the bad things, but we haven’t changed our psychology. Learning to read has a far greater effect on human survival than any wild predator.

    We need to be very careful in our evaluation of things. It is far too easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is an especially dangerous thing to do when we have reached record levels of health, well-being, and access to knowledge, with extreme poverty dropping precipitously. Also, we need to see carefully the real dangers instead of the imagined ones.

  19. Annie B

    Trump – – Pence – – Bannon. ?

    Terrorism – – Persecution – – Brutality.

    I call him a terrorist as a proper definition of the word ‘terrorism’ is : “the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims” … and that fits to a T, the T.

    Our own ultra-unillustrious politicians – particularly Turnbull, Bishop and Morrison – are like terrified little kids, afraid of what the big bad cruel parent might do to them, if they step out of line. So they bow and scrape via rhetoric, which presumably – they hope reaches Trumps ears. “Oh great one – we are on YOUR side “. Sickening.

    Mind you – there’s not a thing that would mean anything to Trump – beyond what he sees as his deliverances, to his own betterment, his own power and his own aggrandisement, not to mention his own obviously very fractured ego which he needs to boost on a daily if not an hourly basis.

    Impeachment – somehow, cannot come quickly enough. Bad that it would pass to Pence, but anyone compared to Trump, might be a slightly better arrangement. … Pence is a radical christian, with some nasty & peculiar ideas based on his beliefs, but I don’t think would be the ‘destroyer’ that Trump is showing daily potential for.

  20. Jennifer Wilson

    One thing not factored in nearly enough is the effect of Trump’s actions on terrorist groups such as ISIS. I agree with commentators who predict the “Muslim ban” will feed their rage, and that they will see it as a declaration of war. Recruitment may also become easier for them, as Trump incites fear and hatred.

  21. Annie B

    Gary – Agree with you about fake news and extremism on social media. It can contain some dreadful crap, often taken from suspect blogs and sites, which spreads like wildfire throughout whichever social media site it is on, being passed on, shared or @’ed. …

    Have always distrusted MSM – in fact mostly loathe their duplicitous ‘reporting’. …

    As Trump began his Office – on 21st January, they were all agog at this ‘coming’ …. this interesting creature who had said a, b >> z, during his pre-election ravings . … As each further day has dawned, the MSM ( TV particularly ) have been far less the promoters of Trump himself – and are tending strongly to reporting actual facts and allowing the viewing public to draw their own conclusions. ,.. They seem to have ceased covering things up to look rosy. … That’s just my take on it, having seen / heard nightly newscasts, as I am preparing dinner when the main news is being broadcast. I try to tune out, but not always successful. … Can’t turn off the TV – it is for another or others. ( The ABC has also had a really harsh go at this current U.S. administration. ) This is just one link : http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-31/trump-petition-to-stop-state-visit-gathers-million-signatures/8225174 – quoting his ‘well documented misogyny and vulgarity’, with links to other info. about Trump and his ‘executive order’ on immigration etc. etc.

    Perhaps Murdoch in his dotage, has decided to give more of the truth in matters pertaining to Trump – as to not do so, would cloud seriously, his own media persona and investments. And that would never do !!

    ………

    Miriam …. while I agree with you in principle – in regards to much better information available, via :

    “world’s heritage of (out of copyright) books as texts (Project Gutenberg), audio (LibriVox), and text, audio, and video (Archive.org). There is also a large movement to make educational textbooks, lectures (video/audio), and original scientific research papers all available for free.”

    … the speed of life today, with so many too busy – the MSM, rubbishy tabloids, newspapers ( to a lesser degree these days ) and the various social media outlets are the ‘speed read’ or ‘glance’ ( if you like ) for so very many, most likely the majority. … and the rapidity of online social media – posts, replies, shares, forwards etc., leaves much to be desired. .. Much room for many errors ( of judgement in particular, and comment in general ). Sadly, not enough people would want to pursue ‘study’ by way of in-depth analysis and content for properly formed opinion, and information.

  22. Johno

    Dump the Trump !!

  23. Kate Ahearne

    Miriam, Thanks for your remarks, especially for your response to Gary. I’ve been over to the link you gave for Bannon at the Vatican – Gosh! Very difficult to understand – what a waffler. But what I did understand doesn’t make a lot of sense in view of his now being so teamed-up with Trump. Good capitalists and bad capitalists? And, what, now he’s teamed up with a good capitalist?

  24. Kaye Lee

    Trump sacked the acting attorney-general because she didn’t think his ban was legal.

    “I am responsible for ensuring that the positions we take in court remain consistent with this institution’s solemn obligation to always seek justice and stand for what is right,” Ms Yates said.

    “At present, I am not convinced that the defence of the executive order is consistent with these responsibilities, nor am I convinced that the executive order is lawful.”

    A statement from the White House confirmed Mr Trump had “relieved Ms Yates of her duties”, accusing her of “betraying the Department of Justice”.

    “The Acting Attorney-General, Sally Yates has betrayed the Department of Justice by refusing to enforce a legal order to protect citizens of the United States,” the statement read.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-31/donald-trump-sacks-attorney-general-sally-yates-travel-ban/8226054

  25. Matters Not

    What – all she had to do was follow orders. And then use the Nuremberg defense? (Just jokin … )

    She knew she was on borrowed time, so why not be sacked on a point of principle. Will look much better when the history is written. Might even become a martyr?

  26. David Bruce

    It is regrettable that both the Muslims and the Russians are victims of the International zionists who pretend to be Jewish. The whole pantomime is orchestrated by the City of London money system, as part of their One World programme. Trump and his motley crew are just the franchise holders for the current term, and get their scripts from the same place HRC got hers.Soros is currently the chief puppet master, but he too is following a script. When you understand the Red Dragon and how the system has operated for the past 150 years, what we are seeing today is highly predictable. With Trump, the USA gets Civil War, continued. There was never a formal cease fire. The aim is to reduce the US population to 100 million by 2050.

  27. Peter F

    Kate, with respect to ‘The desire to “bring everything crashing down” ‘, we have witnessed this behaviour ever since Abbott replaced Turnbull.

  28. Kaye Lee

    Backing away slowly…..

  29. Alan Baird

    I find it exceedingly strange that the current ban on muslims DOESN’T extend to Saudi Arabia, given that the the main culprits in the New York bombing came from there. Could it be that Saudi Arabia is a special case in that the OIL “trumps” being bad-guy muslims? Isn’t it strange that Geo. Bush took note of the Arabian presence but eschewed an attack on Arabia, preferring Saddam Hussain’s Iraq which took no part in the attack. As an aged US actor would say, “Weird, Or What?” Mind you, Arabia would have been REALLY messy, even on a George Bush scale of messiness. The US says a lot of nasty stuff about North Korea, but sticks to that, ‘cos it too would be VERY messy. There might have been doubt about Saddam’s “weapons of mass destruction” but NO doubt about North Korea’s, AND with a loony in charge, it’s better shouting from a distance. The comparison with the cowardly bully confronting the small but bad tempered boy in the playground springs to mind. However, with Donald in charge, we could be in for interesting times. Tricky Dicky’s strategy of being thought nuts and therefore treated with kid gloves springs to mind. Again.

  30. Miriam English

    David Bruce, forget to take your medication?

  31. Sean Stinson

    I see a lot of petulant child analogies from the left, but no serious analysis on what the US political establishment has actually become, and why Bannon’s approach may be timely and necessary.

    Suffice it to say Trump’s Muslim ban was drafted under the Obama administration, whose foreign policy created no fewer than 6,600,000 Muslim refugees.

    Would love to write more on the subject but it seems my posts are no longer welcome here, so I’ll just leave you with this quote from American historian and theorist Carroll Quigley:

    “The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can ‘throw the rascals out’ at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy”

    “Either party in office becomes in time corrupt, tired, unenterprising, and vigorless. Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party, which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies.”

    Makes you wonder if bringing the whole thing crashing down might not be such a bad idea huh?

  32. Matters Not

    Suffice it to say Trump’s Muslim ban was drafted under the Obama administration

    Sean, no doubt you have a link or two re that extraordinary claim. And so there’s no confusion – Trump’s Muslim ban was drafted under the Obama administration.

    And while on the subject of links, perhaps David Bruce could do likewise?

  33. Miriam English

    Yeah, that’s what Trump has been saying (in between saying his crowd was bigger and that he actually got more votes). It isn’t true. Obama put a temporary ban on Iraqi religious extremists for a few weeks after an incident (a bombing? I can’t remember off-hand), but allowed other Iraqis to travel freely. The Russian sources of fake news have been pushing this bullshit too. The numbers get bigger every time I hear it.

  34. Kaye Lee

    As per usual, Sean isn’t telling the actual truth.

    Obama’s changes didn’t bar entry to the U.S. by persons traveling from certain areas of concern; it merely changed the process by which they must apply for visas:

    Generally, [H.R. 158] prohibits natives of, or travelers to Syria or Iraq (or other countries that have been designated by the secretaries of State or Homeland Security as state supporters or sponsors of terror, such as Sudan and Iran) anytime from March 1, 2011, onward, from participating in the VWP, requiring instead that they seek visas through interviews by American consular officers. Exceptions are carved out for VWP nationals who served in military or civilian government capacities in Syria, Iraq, or other designated countries; the DHS secretary may issue waivers for others.

    VWP=visa waiver program allowing people from certain countries staying for less than 90 days to not get a visa.

    [O]n December 18, 2015, the President signed into law the Consolidated Appropriations Act 2016, which includes the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 (the Act). The Act, among other things, establishes new eligibility requirements for travel under the VWP. These new eligibility requirements do not bar travel to the United States. Instead, a traveler who does not meet the requirements must obtain a visa for travel to the United States, which generally includes an in-person interview at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate.

    http://www.snopes.com/trump-immigration-order-obama/

    “Bannon’s approach may be timely and necessary.”

    You a Mad Max fan Sean?

  35. Robert G. Shaw

    Annie, (from another thread)

    “So – I ask you to consider what Trump is trying to achieve ?”

    I’ve been considering that notion for quite some time Annie. It was the fundamental question that sat beneath all others since June 2015.

    Now, under the protective, legitimating, gloss of electoral victory he will enact the wishes and whims of his goldfish mind. Ably abetted, of course, by all those vested interests that both sponsored his passage, and now seek to have his ear.
    And the ideological base of those interests?
    I think it be a religious conservatism. There was an interesting article I read sometime ago, well before the election, and amplified here recently,

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/opinion/sunday/donald-trump-the-religious-rights-trojan-horse.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

    that likened his candidacy to a vessel, for those interests held in check during the Obama presidency.
    I think that’s accurate.
    His cabinet choices the very first and most powerful indication of that.
    And your Forbes article outlines the fourth piece of substantial evidence to support that view.

    Annie, I read everything, from Alternet to the National Review.
    Know thy enemy, I believe the saying goes.

    One more thing, two actually: none of us here, not one, uttered a syllable when Obama enacted his own questionable policy when he signed into law (in December 2015) the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act.
    And the second: the attitude currently on display from the Left is bordering on idiotic. I mean, if I see one more comparison to Hitler, or another vacuous accusation that this is exclusively a Muslim ban in the service of bare knuckle racism, or have to endure another weeping University student lamenting the fascist state we now live in, then I’m going to throw up.

    And my central charge would go something like this: the politics of fear, perhaps the most efficacious of strategies, is also the most immoral and ignoble. It speaks as much to Trump’s perverse desire for attention and magnanimity, and his juvenile affection for the politics of gesture, as it does to the direction his administration appears to be taking.
    Troubling times ahead indeed.

    But it’s us, the Left, who remain deeply complicit in this unfolding tragedy.
    We could never imagine that Trump may in fact win.
    We could never imagine that somewhere out there, somewhere out in the suburbs and desolate counties and districts and rusted out factory environs there were people living lives much removed from our very own.
    We couldn’t imagine.
    And now Trump is holding up a mirror to that very lack of imagination – and inserting his own demented vision.

    A sensible read.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2017/01/trump-immigration-order-muslims/514844/

    …….

    Re: Racism Oula article – I am happy to see someone at AIM remove the falsely attributed quote (to Hitchen’s) and place in its stead some slogan, some bromide.

    ……

    I keep hearing, monotonous and unexplored, the term ‘MSM’ as if it’s some newly discovered virulent pox – an agent creeping up on people in their beds, as they toil the field, milk the cows, tend crops, and go about the simple business of simple living.
    It seems to be spoken about as if far removed from the lives of ‘good people’, good, honest Leftie’s, who believe that they have no counterpart to Fox or Townhall, and who believe, honestly believe, bless their innocent souls, that they, and they’re side, are simply not capable of, are simply immune to, bias, falsehood, post truth or alternative facts.
    Why would they think that?
    Did they just witness the recent US election?
    Did they not read the Wikileaks list of journalists, all 65 or 75 of them, invited by team Clinton for ‘consultation’?

    Quite remarkable if you ask me.

    It begs the question though, doesn’t it?
    What are these inviolate news outlets, these oracles of Truth, that only we have access to?
    I’ve been a reader for well over half my life and I still haven’t found any.
    Maybe I’ve been looking in the wrong places.
    i tried under the lounge, and behind the bookcase.
    I even tried in the backseat of car.
    Nothing.
    Some old copies of Socialist Worker, ICFI, and the Wobblies.
    And that elusive ‘Truth’?
    Nope, couldn’t find it.

    Maybe someone here, generous in spirit and stern of judge, can offer a little of theirs?
    Here’s hopin’!

    ……

    Trump continues to push forward his agenda.
    At least the man is keeping his promises to those who voted for him.
    As he should. And keeping promises is a rare thing these days, if you ask me.
    We might not like those promises.
    But we can’t really complain now, can we?
    After all, he’s only where he is today because of our arrogance, our stupidity.

    I would hope for more self reflection at this crucial time.
    But all I seem to hear and read is outrage, whining, and more pomposity.
    It’s a shame.

    …….

    Finally, Sean. The Obama policy was different in 4 fundamental aspects and could only be used as parallel, precedent, template, or rationale, by those more intent on pursuing a post truth than on presenting a mature and responsible argument.
    A lot like what you’re trying to do right here, right now.

    You, my good man, are going to have a devil of a time responding to Matters Not’s thrown gauntlet.

    Either you pick it up with a rigourous and referenced argument, or you walk away, quietly, perhaps even with the humility of a small apology for your indiscretion.

    I await your decision.
    My mind seeks the former.
    My heart the latter.

    So it’s a win-win for me!

  36. Sean Stinson

    Ok, in the interest of pedantry lets wind it back and say Trump’s Muslim ban is not without precedent in the policies of the previous administration. In 2011 Obama affected a 6 month ban on Iraqis entering the United States. In 2015 he restricted visa waivers for the seven Muslim-majority countries – Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Libya and Yemen – covered by Trump’s executive order. Trump’s order goes a step further by barring immigration and visitors from those countries.

  37. Roswell

    Sean, how can Bannon’s approach be timely or necessary? I don’t have a link, and I apologise for that, but apparently he’s on record for wanting a Holy War to wipe Islam off the face of the Earth.

    Think about that for a second.

    He allegedly wants a war that has the potential to kill tens of millions of people.

  38. Matters Not

    in the interest of pedantry lets wind it back

    Yes. Let’s do exactly that. And just to be perfectly clear – are ‘visa wavers’ to be equated with ‘bans’.

    Or are the ‘words’ chosen of no consequence?

    In my world, ‘arguments’ need ‘facts’ if they are to be respected. (Not saying for a minute that facts speak for themselves.) Facts are necessary but certainly not sufficient in themselves. In fact they are a dime a dozen

  39. Roswell

    Robert Shaw, I removed that Hitchen’s meme, oh, let me think … about 12 hours ago.

    I would have thought that your forensic eye might have noticed by now.

  40. Robert G. Shaw

    “Ok, in the interest of pedantry lets wind it back and say….”

    Ok, in the interests of honestly and accuracy let’s wind it back and say…..

    There you go Sean, fixed it for you.

    No need to thank me.
    You’ve already given enough.

  41. Kaye Lee

    In 2011, Obama’s state department stopped processing Iraqi refugee requests for six months, though it didn’t disclose the policy like Trump did

    In 2011, there was a specific threat.

    First, Obama’s suspension was in direct response to a failed plot by Iraqi nationals living in Bowling Green, Ky., to send money, explosives and weapons to al-Qaida. The two men were arrested by the FBI in May 2011 for actions committed in Iraq and trying to assist overseas terrorist groups.

    Both had entered the United States as refugees after lying about their past terrorism ties on paperwork. One man worked as a bombmaker in Iraq, and the FBI even matched his fingerprints to an unexploded IED discovered in 2005 in Iraq, raising questions about the thoroughness of the vetting process.

    Trump’s ban, meanwhile, is more preemptive. As PolitiFact reported, no refugee or immigrant from any of the seven countries targeted by the ban has been implicated in any fatal terrorist attack in the United States

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/jan/30/donald-trump/why-comparing-trumps-and-obamas-immigration-restri/

  42. Robert G. Shaw

    Roswell, that ‘eye’ did notice it……about 12 hours ago.

    Which is why I mention it.

    Tell me, why did you remove it?
    Or, why was it allowed up without a check for accuracy?

  43. Matters Not

    or have to endure another weeping University student lamenting the fascist state we now live in, then I’m going to throw up.

    Re the I’m going to throw up . Well you usually do – so in a sense it’s good to see some consistency.

  44. Roswell

    I was asked to remove it. And no, I didn’t select it. I don’t know who did.

  45. Roswell

    Indeed, Matters Not. Robert Shaw has threatened much throwing up.

    He’ll blame us, no doubt.

  46. Sean Stinson

    Fine. All of you. Please IGNORE everything I just said. It doesn’t matter. Really. Go out and protest Trump, and get him thrown out of office. Then you have Pence to deal with, and you will see what right wing religious extremism really looks like. After you’re done protesting Pence you might be lucky and get your Kennedys back again. Perhaps a well spoken liberal democrat in a better fitting suit (or pantsuit) who will continue enforcing America’s foreign and economic policy of submit or die, while murdering children in poor countries.

    I will still be here, banging my head against the same effing brick wall…

  47. Robert G. Shaw

    Yes Matters, it appears I do indeed.
    I suspect it’s the company I keep.

  48. Roswell

    I agree on one thing, Sean. Pence is no better.

  49. Miriam English

    Thanks Kaye. I should have done the research to correct my mistakes. I’m grateful to you.

  50. Kate Ahearne

    Robert, Yes, there does seem to be serious doubt about whether that quote should be attributed to Hitchens. But what worried me much more than the attribution was what the quote actually said, which was ‘Islamophobia – A word created by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons’.

  51. Florence nee Fedup

    If I was ISIS, I would be over the moon with Trump and Co. Trump has move the emphasis from fighting ISIS to fighting all Muslims. Something they have long wanted. That is the aim of terrorism. Trouble is Trump or no one else has the resources to launch a war on such a wide front.

  52. Kaye Lee

    Speaking of “petulant child”…..

    Possible reasons your toddler may bang his head:

    > Frustration. If your toddler bangs his head during temper tantrums, he’s probably trying to vent some strong emotions. He hasn’t yet learned to express his feelings adequately through words, so he’s using physical actions. And again, he may be comforting himself during this very stressful event.

    > A need for attention. Ongoing head banging may also be a way for your toddler to get attention. Understandably, you may tend to become solicitous when you see your child doing something that appears self-destructive. And since he likes it when you fuss over his behavior, he may continue the head banging in order to get the attention he wants.

  53. Matters Not

    Sean Stinson, your decision to ‘cut and run’ re your original post is extremely disappointing. I, for one, find Pence to be a frightening prospect but to raise the spectre of his possible ascension – without addressing the points YOU made is also extremely disappointing.

    Surely, this is not your normal behaviour. Or have I missed much over recent times?

  54. Robert G. Shaw

    Sean, your argument was suspect. You were called on it.
    Positing a tantrum now in lieu of an honest argument does you no favours.
    Believing that Trump is a better deal than Clinton, or any other Democratic pantsuit, is a fools game of false equivalence.

    No one on this site is more critical of Left/Democrat actions, behavoiurs, and strategies than myself.
    I’ve peppered my posts with criticisms till the words ran off the page.
    But despite my disdain for their myriad lunacies, there is none greater than the elevation of Trump and his cabal of outliers into our body politic.

    Trump is a man of gesture and hubris; his executive order to ban was based wholly on the premise of an immediate posturing: a quick, short, sharp shock.
    Those qualities belong in a sandpit, not the Oval Office.
    He will cause, it’s my belief, untold damage to international relations and the domestic policy/economy.

    The affection some have for him, perhaps those like yourself, as some kind of wildcard, some spoiler, some anti establishment freewheeler, I find laughable and charmingly naive.

    That brick wall of which you speak – yes, I’ve seen it too.

  55. Annie B

    David Bruce – 6.13 pm.

    ” It is regrettable that both the Muslims and the Russians are victims of the International zionists who pretend to be Jewish. ”

    Pleased to see you said that. Particularly in regards to the zionists who pretend to be Jewish. Zionists and true Jewish people are many miles apart. … To so many, the mere mention of the word “Zion” automatically brings to mind the entire Jewish population of the world.

    This is sooo – not so.

    Many good Jewish people, faithfully practicing Judaism as it is writ – do NOT subscribe to the Zionist activity emanating from Israel at this time ( and before – and no doubt continuing ). They are ashamed at the perceived affiliation. … They are ashamed of their perceived ‘brothers’.

    Miriam – 11.24 am ….

    I read that link and it is long. … And in a way, I wish I hadn’t read it – made me feel quite ill. …. Capitalism is a Judeo-Christian ideal ? ( as that is what he spouts ) and is the ‘good capitalism’ ( as Kate Ahearne queries ) – – – something to aspire to ? ” … teaming up with a good capitalist” ?

    This idiot will go whichever way the wind blows – and at the moment he seems to lean to Trump who has such deeply ingrained Christian ideals ??? – – I don’t think. If ever christian ideals stood for something or anything, Trump and his asinine mob, do not. Except of course for the Pence factor – who is only there by Trumps selection, to boost the side of radical christianity – for his own sake. Better to go the whole way, than only half ?

    I dare not say another word. !! 🙁

  56. Matters Not

    Trump is a man of gesture and hubris; his executive order to ban was based wholly on the premise of an immediate posturing: a quick, short, sharp shock.
    Those qualities belong in a sandpit, not the Oval Office.
    He will cause, it’s my belief, untold damage to international relations and the domestic policy/economy.

    Can only agree. He’s an intellectual cretin. But now so very, very powerful.

    Perhaps ‘cretinism’ is the new black? Locally we have Roberts, Hanson, Georg …

  57. Sean Stinson

    @RG Shaw

    No, my argument was completely ignored in a haze of post-truth allegations and calls for fact checking. Of course Trump is no “outsider”. A giant baby does not ascend to the most jealously guarded position of power in the world by himself. Trump was put there for a reason. The War on Terror (started under Carter) is falling behind schedule. Someone has to bring forward war with Iran.

    @Matters

    Did not cut and run. Have been making the same case for months now, just nobody seems to want to listen.

    @KL

    You are all class, as always.

  58. Matters Not

    Sean re your most recent post:

    . Have been making the same case for months now

    Perhaps? (Not sure the details of same.) But it’s your most recent claim that was on the table. You know:

    Trump’s Muslim ban was drafted under the Obama administration

    Fact or fiction? Or is it the case that your ‘facts’ must always fit your ‘theory’? And the interrelationship between ‘fact’ and ‘theory’ is ignored?

    A serious epistemological question. But I see no evidence that is the philosophical path you are pursuing.

    Then again, I didn’t support the censorship applied in your case. Then or now.

  59. Roswell

    Sean, did it occur to you that the reason your argument was ignored was because it wasn’t very strong?

  60. Sean Stinson

    @MN

    see Visa Waiver Program and Terrorist Travel Protection Act 2015

    Any difference in scope and application is only a matter of degree.

  61. Kaye Lee

    Sean, you are utterly dismissive, as always. Your dummy spit deserved that.

    You think fact-checking is unimportant. I disagree. If you present statements as fact then you should be either able to back them up or accept that you “misrepresented” the truth, possibly unwittingly, in which case most of us are grateful for clarification.

    Did you watch the video of Bannon calling for a Christian militia to undertake a Holy War? What are your views on that.

    The degree that you speak of…under one law you had to get a visa, under the other law you couldn’t get a visa. That’s a bit more than degree.

  62. Robert G. Shaw

    Sean, your post makes no sense, none whatsoever, in light of your initial one.
    In the first, and in full accord with every word I’ve ever seen you write, you seem almost gleeful that the established order, with the install of Trump and his errant crew, might in fact bring forth that much heralded ‘crashing down’.

    And in this one you’re suggesting that Trump is in fact a near Manchuria Candidate whose sole purpose is to pursue an imperialist agenda set in motion under Carter.

    Which is it Sean – Trump as Destroyer of the Establishment or Trump as Instrument of the Establishment?

    …….

    You see those ‘calls for fact checking’ you appear to dismiss so readily?
    Well I actually like them.
    Call me crazy but I think they’re important.
    I’m unsurprised that you don’t.

    I also notice the despicable attempt by you to soft shoe shuffle your way out of responsibility
    for your language. To wit, there was no ‘haze of post truth allegations’.
    You attempted to posit a piece of nonsense as argument.
    You were called out on it.
    You back peddled, reluctantly.
    There was no haze, all was clear light.
    There was no ‘allegation’ because to allege suggests without proof. Yet the proof is there for all to see.
    Matters Not even took the time to HTML in beautiful bold font.

    Sean, make your arguments as you see fit.
    But do not expect me to let pass the stuff of rank argumentation or even more dishonorable
    rationalising.
    Save it for the others who appear unperturbed by your careless or inattentive thoughts.

    …..

    And I too drew the ire of this blog for supporting your cause against the ridiculous ban on your last article.
    This has nothing to do with you, personally. This has everything to do with the arguments before us.
    Nothing more. Nothing less.

  63. Matters Not

    Any difference in scope and application is only a matter of degree.

    This only a matter of degree is what a legal based system is all about. You know – the degree. Rule of Law and all that. That’s why Trump explored those legalities to justify his extraordinary and outrageous actions – or did I miss that discussion? Perhaps you have link

    ]Then perhaps it comes down to – in whose opinion? Yours, Trump’s, RT’s – where do I find the authoritative ‘opinion’?

    Perhaps we ought to let the recently sacked Yates proffer hers?

    Sean – pull up your pants and move on.

  64. Kaye Lee

    When serious allegations are made that cannot be proven then the site has to protect itself.

  65. Annie B

    Kaye Lee – – – Jan. 31, 2017 at 9:08 pm

    Well said – and totally spot on.

    Trump to a ‘T’. … so far he has shown himself to be exactly this – a petulant ( and dangerous ) man/child.

    Only some kind of miracle will change this. !!! … Haven’t a clue what that might be, but I hope it starts with a big “I” and ends with ‘mpeachment’. …. I think it’s the only way they can go, … to save themselves.

  66. Kaye Lee

    The trouble is, and I agree with Sean on this, Pence is another problem.

  67. Pingback: Authoritarian regimes: Zimbabwe, Venezuela, next the USA - Zimbabwe Consolidated News

  68. Matters Not

    Pence is another problem

    Indeed! But a more predictable one.

    Terrorism works best when it’s unpredictable. Just look around.

  69. Sean Stinson

    Pence is the true face of the Tea Party which completed its coup against the GOP in 2009/10. He makes Trump look like a walk in the park.

  70. Kaye Lee

    Bannon seems to be running Trump’s show and he’s a lunatic

  71. Sheila Newman

    The desire to bring everything crashing down seems to apply more to Mr Soros, than to Trump. What is it that you want to keep from the Clinton/Obama administration? The wars? Identity politics? Mass immigration? Open borders? Massive corruption? The psychoanalysis doesn’t hold up when you consider Trump’s family, which seems to be well-mannered and together, nor his capacity to inspire support interpersonally – a constructive rather than destructive sign, nor his capacity to carry out what he said he would do, which is a form of strong honesty. He shows empathy in his tweets. This kind of general psychanalysis could apply to any recent US president or Australian PM. Trump has also kept his promises so far, even if you don’t like them. Immigration and emigration are factors in every polity, to my knowledge, but they are supposed to be agreed by the community. The United States has been abusing labour with lousy laws and has been using slave labour in the form of mass immigration, but legal and illegal for years. Terrorism has now come into the equation: vetting immigrants from the states that are most associated with terrorism (with Pakistan another candidate). I don’t see this as ‘anti-muslim’. I think people should be encouraging Trump to go ahead with peacemaking with Russia and helping get peace in Syria.

  72. Kaye Lee

    Oh Lord, it’s the Port Arthur woman again.

  73. Matters Not

    Yes I know – Soros is the real problem. It’s now a mantra. Repeat after me. Soros is the devil incarnate and links supplied on request. FFS.

    Then we have:

    consider Trump’s family, which seems to be well-mannered and together,

    Sounds reasonable. On the surface at least – to some ideologues. But are we talking about his first family? His second? Or perhaps his third? You know the – together bit. And let’s not forget the ‘pussy grabbing’ bit designed to show good manners and togetherness.

    Give me a break.

  74. Miriam English

    Sheila,

    Trump has also kept his promises so far …such as promising to reveal his taxes? Nope.

    his capacity to inspire support interpersonally …the way his staff are beset by a feeling of drowning under conflicting statements and lies from Trump?

    I don’t see this as “anti-muslim” — the wording actually specifies Muslims as people to target, I believe.

    people should be encouraging Trump to go ahead with peacemaking with Russia — there is excellent evidence that Russia has been doing a lot of work to weaken Europe in order to make it easy to pursue expansion in bordering countries. Duping the Trump moron appears to be part of this. The last thing we want is for Europe to be engulfed in another war or series of wars just because Putin wants to build an empire. That’s what is likely to come of Trump’s “peacemaking” with Russia.

  75. Miriam English

    On the risk of Putin unintentionally setting off a major war, see this rather depressing article:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias-stone/history-tells-us-what-will-brexit-trump_b_11179774.html?ncid=engmodushpmg00000006

    Sorry to feed Harquebus’ fires. Obviously I don’t think it is the whole story, but it raises the question of signs we should be wary of and things we should be working to prevent.

    Some of the crazier statements made here make me fervently wish we had artificial intelligence (AI) here already to guide us through this dangerous time. Humans so easily plunge over the edge into pure nutty fantasy. It is deeply worrying. It is my custom to watch a documentary during dinner. I just watched a brilliant talk by Jeff Hawkins on how Numenta are building AIs. What a total relief. With luck we’ll have them soon enough to help.

  76. Annie B

    Robert GS … I am not at all sure why you keep addressing me in your posts. I have replied nothing to you here so far, yet you refer back to another AIMN article to address me specifically…. I don’t appreciate that too much !! ….

    When I say something here – on this article – by all means, reply – if not, please refrain. … It smacks of some kind of opportunism.

    *********

    @ Sean Stinson – Re : “Bannon’s approach may be timely and necessary.” ….may I suggest it would only be for Bannons’ own benefit, to align himself with the monstrous edicts being thrown hither, thither and yon, by THE most incompetent, inane and dangerous ( to date ) PotUS ever to dirty up the White House.
    He does this, perhaps to elevate his own self importance, in the shadow of the PotUS, but that will do as long as he ( like Trump ) will gain some notoriety. Also, regarding the

    @ Matters Not – re : ” That’s why Trump explored those legalities” …. and yes, I think maybe you have missed something ( although you usually don’t ). …. Trump, from his past and present behaviour, is not capable of exploring any ‘legalities’ and seems to not give one bloody hoot about them anyway, even if / when he is told legalities exist. … From posts / comments ( admittedly, only those ) ….it seems the Republicans are turning their back on him now in droves – probably because he is a total misfit and an embarrassment to their own ideologies.

    p.s. – have seen in my mail inbox, that there are many more notices on this thread now, so am probably totally out of sync in real time here – however, on the issues raised here, I stand by what I have said.

  77. Sean Stinson

    @Sheila Newman

    Tried to contact you via your website in response to comments on one of my recent posts – might have gone straight to junk mail, I’ve noticed that seems to happen a bit with Drupal 🙁

  78. Matters Not

    Re Pence and his election. He ‘got there’ in much the same way that Malcolm Roberts did. On the coat tails of the ‘leader’.

    The ‘reality of our ‘democracy’ needs some serious work. ‘Structurally’ as well as ‘intellectually’. After all Roberts only totalled some 77 votes. (And while he thinks he has a mandate – in effect he does.

  79. Um

    Don’t suppose Trump’s temporary ban on the 7 terrorist nations deemed by Obama while a proper vetting system is put in place has anything to do with total awareness? i.e. A concern for payback for the devastation the last 4 presidents imposed on the Middle East in pursuit of hegemony.

  80. Matters Not

    Annie B when it comes to Trump, (the four times bankrupt), any reference to his exploration of legal niceties is only written with ‘tongue in cheek’. Firmly.

    Please apply that lens to anything I post in future re Trump and any form of his ‘legal insights’.

    In any ‘legitimate’, ‘logical’, ‘rational’, ‘moral’, ‘ethical’ society Trump would be \incarcerated

    But only in America? Or perhaps in Australia as well?

  81. Annie B

    @Matters Not ….

    Point taken … and I will most certainly apply that lens to any further posts you have about Trump.

    And yes – only in America ( but I hope we have not yet sunk to those extremes here ).

    ……..

    Frankly, I think we should all shut the hell up about him – here, there and everywhere. He thrives on attention, and boy is he getting massive loads of that at the moment. …. Would be nice to have a global / blanket “shut uppa your face” applied to uttering anything about him.

    From all these outpourings, free publicity ( whether it be good or bad ), notoriety and constant attention, he must think he’s in his 7th heaven – with all his promised virgins. !! – – ( ooops, wrong religion. !! ).

  82. silkworm

    If we dump Trump we get Pence, a religious zealot. So what? We already have Bannon who is a religious zealot who wants a holy war.

    And could someone please explain to me what “Christian capitalism” is?

  83. windfarmsaregood

    Did anyone expect a different response to Trump’s fascism from the LNP/One Nation coalition?

  84. Robert G. Shaw

    Annie,
    ‘you keep addressing me…”
    “Keep”?
    I addressed you once.

    I had just read the posts from another thread where we were engaged in a conversation, where you had specifically asked me a question.
    Lost in the bowels of AIM’s fast paced article turnover I decided to post my response here, the relevance to this discussion quite clear.

    It appears you have taken slight where none was intended, or written.
    For any possible ambiguity in the former, I apologise.
    For the latter, I do not.

  85. Sean Stinson

    @Keith

    The Inevitability of Impeachment

    Not like the media has ever done this before is it? Prepare the public for an attempt at something by presenting it in a confident, declarative fashion, as if it is inevitable and can’t be stopped, in order to reduce resistance?

    It’s propaganda 101.

  86. Sean Stinson

    @Matters Not

    You asked for authoritative ‘opinion’ in the legalities of Trump’s ban and Yates’ reaction.

    For starters, let’s be absolutely clear, as I stated form the outset, that it was Obama’s bill, voted for by a bi-partisan majority, which gave Trump the authority to impose a travel ban on Muslims.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2029

    As to the matter of authoritative opinion, Jack Goldsmith is Professor at Harvard Law School, co-founder of Lawfare, a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, and co-chair of its Working Group on National Security, Technology, and Law. I think he counts as an ‘authoritative’ source.

    http://www.lawfareblog.com/quick-thoughts-sally-yates-unpersuasive-statement

  87. Kate Ahearne

    Roswell, thanks for the link. The only trouble is that the Senate might actually go ahead and endorse Bannon. What an interesting morning we’re having.

  88. Harquebus

    Do nothing. It will happen.

    This article does not mention climate change, environmental destruction nor the depletion of other replenishable and non replenishable resources. Add these to the mix and you will see the enormous scope of our compounding problems.

    “You do not need to be an economist to see that the average 2016 price of oil ~ $50/bbl was substantially lower than just the breakeven price of all but a small proportion of global oil reserves.”
    “It appears that not a single significant oil-producing country is balancing its budget.”
    “The indicators all spell huge trouble ahead.”
    “At this point – no matter how much oil is left (a lot) and in whatever form (many), oil will be of no use as an energy source for transport fuels, since it will on average require more energy to extract, refine and deliver to the end-user, than the oil itself contains.”
    “The global industrial world economy depends on oil as its prime energy source.”
    “I would like to remind economists and bankers that you cannot eat 0000’s on a computer screen, or use them to put food on the table, heat your house, or make something useful.”
    “If you deduct financial services and account for debt, the real world economy is contracting fast.
    To compensate, and continue the fallacy of endless economic growth, we have simply borrowed and borrowed, and borrowed. Huge amounts of additional debt are now required to sustain the “Growth Illusion”.”
    “Production of this commodity (conventional oil) has undoubtedly peaked and is now declining.”
    “rising exponentially faster. This amount of debt, can never ever be repaid.”
    “Economists would have us believe it’s just another turn of the credit cycle. This dismal non-science is in the main the lapdog of the establishment, the global financial and corporate interests. They have engineered the “science” to support the myth of perpetual growth to suit the needs of their pay-masters, the financial institutions, corporations and governments (who pay their salaries, fund the universities and research, etc).”
    “I have news for the “Economics Profession”. The perpetual growth fantasy financial system based on unlimited cheap energy is now coming to an end. From the planet’s point of view – it simply couldn’t be soon enough.”
    “The pre-eminent challenge is energy for transport and agriculture.”
    “We need to drag our politicians and policy makers kicking and screaming to the table, to make them understand the dire nature of the predicament and challenge them to open their eyes to the increasingly obvious, and to take action.”
    http://www.feasta.org/2017/01/22/end-of-the-oilocene-the-demise-of-the-global-oil-industry-and-of-the-global-economic-system-as-we-know-it/

    Peak oil mates, peak oil.

    Cheers.

  89. Robert G. Shaw

    Venezuela is a basket case.

    If you would care to contradict that statement please do so, not by the issue of your tiresome and worthless ex-cathedra, but by links to several sources that you feel accurately describe conditions in the country

    I’m getting so tired of this “rebuttal by word” only.

    Link to the sources you believe to be authoritative and without bias.

    Link them.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/11/venezuela-on-the-brink-a-journey-through-a-country-in-crisis

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/22/venezuela-economic-crisis-guardian-briefing

    https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/

    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38094-venezuela-s-economic-crisis-does-it-mean-that-the-left-has-failed

  90. Robert G. Shaw

    Re: your first link to Matters Not – you’ve got to be kidding me?!?!

    Re: your second link – that “authoritative” source you cite does nothing to support your case.

    The question was about “matter of degrees” between what Obama did and what Trump has done, NOT one lawyer’s opinion as to what Yates should have done!! (Never mind his howling admission “I have not yet examined the EO with sufficient care to determine for myself its legality”).

    The two are unrelated.

    You’ve dropped a shameful non sequitur!!

    What a mess Sean.
    You are way out of your depth; clumsy, unfocused blogging for the sake of hitting the submit button.

  91. Sean Stinson

    @ Robert G Shaw

    “Sometimes the proper intellectual argument is, go f*ck yourself.” – Abbie Hoffman

  92. Kaye Lee

    The link you gave to the omnibus bill was ridiculous Sean. You obviously didn’t look at it – I don’t think it is even the right Bill. If you were genuine, this was the link you should have provided: HR 158 not HR 2029

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/158?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22H.R.+158%22%5D%7D&r=2

    For those who don’t want to wade through it, the summation given in the link I provided on January 31, 2017 at 8:31 pm sums it up accurately.

    The second link boils down to an opinion that she (Yates) should defend the EO unless she is convinced of its illegality – she should have counseled the President and resigned if he disagreed. Perhaps if she had been consulted she could have given an informed view. With no notice and chaos happening everywhere, she gave her “best opinion”. This has nothing to do with Obama’s law as Robert points out.

    As for “go f*ck yourself”, how very Steve Bannon of you. Let’s bring down those intellectuals, and honesty, truth, accountability and integrity with them.

  93. Annie B

    Robert … just want to get a couple of things straight here –

    I have not asked you specifically a question – anywhere. On the previous article “And So It Begins” you said “Annie – thank you. It appears we share similar views >>> etc.” … upon reading a reply I made to Miriam. You – made that assumption, and frankly – I mostly do not agree with you on many items on either of these articles. … I don’t believe we share similar views at all.

    I don’t recall seeing you on AIMN before, prior to a week or so back. I have only recently returned to reading articles here myself, so you may have been here for quite a while – but you were a new name to me.

    Anyway, there is much more at stake, to be discussed than a trifling matter of ‘wording’ –

    My mistake for using the word “keep”.

  94. Annie B

    @Kate Ahearne … ( re : 11.52 am ) ….

    No surprise there. Trump and his mob, will keep the ‘worlds largest producer and resource of uranium’ ( Australia ) … “under consideration” as far as the Manus / Nauru refugees are concerned, for as long as they think they can string us along. …

    I doubt very strongly there will be a definitive ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to that deal, in the foreseeable future. …. After all, pretty words spoken about being allies and our “long standing relationship” suggests maybe they need us, more than we need them. … Pine Gap for instance ?

    They have already turfed us over ( putting it politely ) with the F35 white elephant, which goes back years to Julia’s reign. … And they have military here, with apparently more to arrive. There is more ‘U.S. military here, in different forms, than we know about anyway … http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/us-military-bases-in-australia-protecting-us-or-putting-us-at-risk/news-story/274681984ca0959242829f9da8fa338e ……

    Professor Richard Tanter [ Senior Research Associate, Nautilus Institute, and professor in the School of Political and Social Studies at the University of Melbourne ] has much to say in the above link.

    Admittedly, the above was published early October last year…. but is more than likely still very relevant.

  95. Robert G. Shaw

    Annie,
    this was the article and question I was referring to. I understand that it’s quite old, in AIM time, but i’d only just read it and thought to respond to your question on this thread because I saw the intersection of ideas.

    In hindsight I should have alerted you to the context. Sorry about that.

    Mexico To Pay For Wall After All!

    Annie BJanuary 29, 2017 at 12:37 am

    —–

    Kaye Lee,
    thank you.

    —–

    Sean,

    a fitting finale to your performance of 4 howlers in as many posts. Each one scurrying to repair the calamity of the previous one only to create another, greater, more laughable, more illogical, one now beautifully, delicately, capped off with a ‘f*ck you’.

    Nice work if you can get it.

    I see you like quotes?
    Try this one:

    “Think, think.
    Read.
    Think, think.
    Write.
    Think again.
    And again.
    Write some more.
    Think.
    And one last time, think.
    Press submit.”

    Plato. Homer, Spinoza, Hume, Locke. Or someone, anyone, anywhere, who still thinks the unthinkable – that a fidelity, a striving toward honesty and accuracy and facts are still kinda better than overt bias, evasion and abuse.

    Sean, this has been a most instructive exchange.
    You and I are nominally of the same political persuasion I assume – the Left.
    Yet I fear your brand of bias and sophistry far more than I do the Rightists yapping at my heels.
    Look at the strategies you employed to escape the post truth trappings of your own ideas on this thread alone.
    Look at them.
    A devastating indictment of your inability to pursue a serious conversation.

    Might I suggest you rewrite your AiM bio?
    It’s a start!

  96. Annie B

    Kaye –

    You are right. Thanks for the info.

    ‘Kudos’ has been given to all 3 ( Howard, Rudd and Gillard ) on numerous occasions, for this dud purchasing spree. I most likely read something about the 3 being complicit on some blog, and it remained firmly in my mind ( feeling a kind of shame that Labor was apparently part of it ).

    Labor quietly acquiesced. ..

    The link you provided said much – both ways. .. Interesting.

  97. Miriam English

    Robert, it would be nice if you could calm down a bit. I don’t agree with a lot of what Sean says, but jeez, you do go over the top with your sneering.

    Sean is a smart guy, a good writer, and does make mistakes, but your mad-dog approach of going for the jugular is almost guaranteed to elicit a “go f*ck yourself” response.

  98. Annie B

    Robert ,….

    Yes – I had forgotten that article. ..

    I was not agreeing with you in fact, nor was I asking you specifically, any questions. … Although it may have appeared that way to you.

    From now on, I must be very careful not to use the question mark so often … and if I do, to make sure a reader knows I am asking a question of them, by showing their name beforehand. … I did however address you once, specifically in my comment on that article – referring to my hope that you would read a link I had posted.

    Thanks for providing the article title, and the time I made the post. Made it easier for me to see my ‘question marks’ and why I put them there.

  99. Robert G. Shaw

    Miriam,
    you’re damn right I’m sneering.
    Post truth is post truth regardless of the political bent of its purveyor.
    And hypocrisy is hypocrisy regardless of your ‘honorable intentions’.

    He’s not telling me to ‘go f*ck myself’ because I’m going for the ‘jugular’.
    He’s telling me to ‘go f*ck myself’ because I haven’t and won’t roll over on his post truth.
    Perhaps he imagined I was someone else….someone like you. Who knows?

    But I’m glad that you and I differ over definitions of what constitutes a ‘smart guy’ and a ‘good writer’.

    Mistakes are a good thing. Being deceitful in defense of them, and compounding them brazenly, petulantly, at the expense of one’s interlocutor and the conversation itself, is not.

  100. Harquebus

    I quite enjoy reading Robert G. Shaw’s comments.
    Keep it up Robert.

  101. Miriam English

    Robert, I strongly disagreed with Sean and so did Kaye. He didn’t say it to either of us. You drew his anger because of the way you attacked. Fairly recently you attacked me in a similar way, and I can honestly tell you it doesn’t bring out the best in people. Exasperation is a word that comes to mind.

    Conversations tend to achieve more if people use them to find the truth, rather than as bloody gladiatorial matches.

    I think there’s not many here who agree with everything Sean says, but most would say he is a smart guy and a good writer and genuine in what he stands for. He makes mistakes (we all do) but he has things to contribute that can enrich us all.

  102. Roswell

    Robert Shaw, Miriam has a valid point. If people are attacked then it’s only natural for them to get their back up, especially if, like Sean, they are very passionate about what they believe in.

  103. Sean Stinson

    Robert G. Shaw

    What brings you to this “tribalist shithole” anyway?

    You are clearly offended by the “lack of intellectual and ethical integrity”

    Do you get paid to troll?

    Or do you just come here for the “mental stimulation”?

  104. Rossleigh

    Though I disagree with some of the things that Sean says, I shall send other people to their deaths to defend his right to say it. It’s what we white, old men do!

    (Yes, yes, Sean, I know you’ll point out what Obama did too, but let’s not forget that he was raised by white folk!)

  105. Roswell

    Sean, he’s not worth bothering with. He’s about a tenth of the person you are.

  106. Robert G. Shaw

    Miriam & Roswell,
    You want me to compromise my principles of honesty, honour, and argumentation so as to spare Sean his feelings of ‘alleged’ persecution?!
    You want me to let his dangerous notions of ‘fact’ and deceitful rhetoric trample over this important conversation?!
    You want me to partake in the hypocrisy that see’s everyone here rightly, justifiably, shit on Trump for his post truth, day in, day out, yet stay mute on Stinson’s because….why exactly, because he’s of the Left, and ‘smart guy and a good writer’?!

    You’re out of your mind.

    —-

    Miriam, you and I argue because you are equally sloppy, I find.
    Yet again your propensity for deceit in the service of your agenda, your bias, against me is evident.
    You claim,
    “Robert, I strongly disagreed with Sean and so did Kaye”.

    Did you Miriam, did you really?
    I noticed Kaye’s criticism, but yours?
    For the life of me I could find not one word where you offered Stinson a rebuke for his sophistry.
    Not one word to seek an accounting for his lazy deceit.
    Not one word to question his suspect claim.
    Not one word to chastise him for his casual attitude to facts in the construction of an idea, a post.

    I did however find your customary reminder for someone to ‘take their medication”.
    But hypocrisy is another issue. At the moment let’s just concentrate on this.

    Could you direct me to your ‘strong disagreement’.
    Timestamped please.

    You want to know why we argue Miriam, why I argue with people like you and Sean?
    Look no further.

  107. Robert G. Shaw

    Sean Stinson,
    calling out your post truth somehow equates to ‘trolling’, does it?
    It’s apparently easier for you to slur someone that’s it is for you to write with honesty and integrity.

    Yes, I am offended by your lack of intellectual, moral, integrity.
    I think you’re deceitful in the pursuit of your ideological bias and I believe that today’s exchange bears that out blindingly.

    ……

    Roswell,
    you’re only a pedestrian. Your comments are of no real consequence.

  108. Miriam English

    Robert, I wasn’t suggesting you “compromise your integrity”. I was merely hoping you could dial back the aggression and hyperbolé.

    Well, I tried. [sigh]

  109. Kaye Lee

    Robert, it would be better if your comments occasionally turned to the topic at hand rather than a continual assessment of other people.

    It is fair enough to discuss the facts but must you always make it personal?

  110. Miriam English

    Kate, I’d heard they were working on suing him because he hadn’t ended his foreign income — it’s against the constitution to expose the USA to potential foreign manipulation through the president having overseas sources of money. But holy cow! Opening 32 new companies in 10 countries since Election Day! Such astonishing contempt for the law! Makes you wonder if he really is crazy, not just stupid.

  111. Robert G. Shaw

    Miriam,
    I see you had no luck with your ‘strong disagreement’.
    Boy oh boy am I surprised!

    Kaye,
    2 things:

    I always write on topic. Always.
    If a post takes me off, the choice to follow is mine.
    If a post gets personal, the choice to follow is mine.

    We clearly have different views on what constitutes personal.

    If there was honest rebuke of those who like Roswell or Miriam have no qualms about
    displaying their hypocrisy, then perhaps I would take your advice more seriously.
    Till then however…..

  112. Kaye Lee

    From Roswell’s earlier link….

    “Trump foolishly thought that he had circumvented the system by removing individuals who disagree with him and replacing them with his own sycophant puppet master. However, Trump apparently doesn’t know about 50 U.S. Code § 3021 which says an individual like Bannon must be confirmed by the Senate if he wants to hold such a prestigious seat. The reason Trump did not know about this law is because he knows absolutely nothing about the laws that govern the United States.”:

    http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/01/31/trumps-attempt-put-neo-nazi-bannon-national-security-council-just-backfired/

    I feel no need to “rebuke” anyone. I discuss the facts. I am sometimes wrong. When I am, I would like to know.

    (Ok, the petulant child comment was a rebuke but that’s because I would rather discuss things than deal with tantrums)

  113. Roswell

    Robert Shaw reminds me so much of another recent pain that used to frequent this site. Someone so perfect, so much better than everyone else, someone always belittling others, someone who was here to guide the souls who could still be saved. The pompous attitude, and the distinct writing style, reminds me of OrchardJar.

  114. Robert G. Shaw

    I don’t think that’s entirely correct Kaye.
    Trump could ask him to sit in as an ‘invitee’.
    Those designated as such don’t require confirmation.

    That’s what i’ve read anyway.
    more tomorrow…..

  115. Roswell

    I called you a hypocrite once, Mr Shaw, and you went into a meltdown. It was the mother of all slurs, one was led to believe.

  116. Kaye Lee

    Robert, yes he could invite him but he didn’t. He made him a permanent member. That’s the point. He chucked out the head of the military and the head of intelligence and is trying to install this wannabe Crusader as a PERMANENT member. That requires Senate approval. Once again, Trump didn’t bother acquainting himself with the rules.

  117. Kaye Lee

    Kate, why would he make that sort of a donation literally the day before the election? Obviously designed to delay disclosure. What fighting of the Mediscare campaign could happen that day when political advertising is banned?

    “Malcolm Turnbull is said to have donated $1m of his money to help the Liberal party pay for television advertising, direct mail-outs and polling in the final weeks of the election campaign.

    The donation was made in the second half of the eight-week campaign into a general pool of funds, which the party used to combat Labor’s damaging Medicare campaign, according to reports.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jul/15/malcolm-turnbull-reportedly-gave-1m-to-liberal-party-for-election-ads

    July 1???

  118. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks Kaye, Yes, it’s a bit suss alright. Since you ask, I reckon he might say that he made the donation after the debts were incurred but before the bills came in. Tee Hee. I noticed somewhere today that there is a claim going around that the Libs were $12million in debt at the time of the election. The point was made that we are expecting these indebted nincompoops to run our economy. Anyhow, I lost the link somehow, so if you or anyone has any info about it, could we have a link?

  119. Kaye Lee

    Turnbull said “I put my money into ensuring that we didn’t have a Labor government.”

    or,,,,,,”We put our money into ensuring that Lucy and I still got to prance on the stage”

  120. Kaye Lee

    The Australian Electoral Commission (AEC), in a periodic dump of data, has revealed the federal Liberal Party, at the reporting date of June 30 2016, was nearly $12 million in debt.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/01/31/turnbulls-liberal-party-donation-to-stay-a-574-day-mystery/

    http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.au/SummaryParty.aspx

    The ALP was $25 million in debt but they both got a lot after the election.

    Liberal Party of Australia 23 464 128.62
    Australian Labor Party 22 355 109.55

    http://www.aec.gov.au/media/media-releases/2016/07-27e.htm

  121. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Kaye. I’m not a bit surprised that you could pull that rabbit out of your hat in a matter of moments!

  122. Kaye Lee

    Mr google is a clever man

  123. Kate Ahearne

    Haha! Indeed he is! I call him ‘Sir’.
    I thought I’d seen it somewhere a bit dodgy, and was hoping you’d come up with something legit, which you did. I’ve put it on my to-do list for tomorrow. Getting tired.

  124. Harquebus

    I have always despised google. Just another monopolistic parasite who made their fortune screwing us.

    “I don’t think many people need to have this explained to them, that when you type something into the Google search box, it’s Google that decides what you get back.”
    http://theantimedia.org/snowden-facebook-control-news/

    For those interested, some interesting reading.
    Search criteria: googleplex

  125. Miriam English

    (Robert, I didn’t want to make a big deal out of it, but apparently you do. January 31, 2017 at 8:27 pm)

  126. Kate Ahearne

    Harquebus, And yet, thanks to Google, I can now read the Huffington Post article that we were talking about.

  127. Miriam English

    Harquebus, it’s a bit inaccurate to call Google monopolistic, and they do actually deliver a service. There are plenty of search engines, it’s just that Sergei and Larry created one that is by far the best. And you can actually use Google without letting them get a cent out of it. Just use Duck Duck Go.

    The article you linked to is really about facebook and I agree that facebook is a bit sinister, but Google puts a lot of effort into stopping the search results from being biased. The big danger with Google is the “filter bubble”, where you get fed the kind of things the program learns that you are most interested in. Much of the time this suits people, but other times it can be a problem because it reinforces people’s prejudices. A way to avoid being caught inside a filter bubble is to use Duck Duck Go because it lets you search completely anonymously.

    See Eli Pariser’s TED talk on filter bubbles:
    https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles

  128. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, Miriam. I didn’t know all that about Goggle and Duck Duck. And as you say, they provide a service. I love it! There’s an old saying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

  129. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Thanks. I thought you would jump on that one.

    Here’s another.
    https://www.ixquick.com/

    Kate Ahearne
    I visit many news aggrigators and fora like this where many links are posted. If the link is to something good, I will usually visit the home page and if I like that, add it to my reading list. No google needed.

    “delivering a cold hard dish of the same old exploitation, betrayal and hypocrisy. Arianna* sold the Huffington Post to AOL for $315 million, sparking a fierce backlash from progressives who accused her of exploiting free labor under the pretense of political idealism and “citizen journalism.””
    http://shameproject.com/profile/arianna-huffington/

    Cheers.

  130. Harquebus

    Ixquick is now enhanced by google. There is no escape.
    My apologies.

  131. Annie B

    Bloody hell … I had to scroll back past 130+ comments to re-read what Jennifer Wilson actually wrote about, which was in fact a treatise of Trumps inept and quite insane ‘doings and grand orders from the White House’ which announces to all and sundry that he is ‘el supremo’ ( and tyrant, oppressor, dictator, authoritarian, despot – all those things under the same heading ) . …. and particularly about his appointed Chief Strategist and Senior Counselor, Bannon – another apparent maniac ( which has now delightfully back-fired, hopefully )

    Jennifer covered the facts very well.

    This is not a forum for a bare knuckle cage fight, nor is it a Sean Stinson article. … I, like many others, sometimes disagree with Sean …. but I acknowledge his ability to write, and in particular, his ability to be ( I believe ) deliberately confrontational at times, – in order to bring out the best in debate. … I might be wrong about that, but only Sean would know, and he is under no obligation to me or anyone else, to explain or excuse himself about the way he writes. This applies to all of us. … Exempt however, should be abuse, personal jibes and attack, and descriptive phrases about others perceived shortcomings. … Not on.

    A good article / essay / story writer can achieve what Sean often does, and his articles so often encourage good debate. Bitter pith is spit at times, but not to the extent that it has been here – – and in an article by another person ?, about one of the worlds’ potentially most dangerous ministries, and a bloke who is literally thumbing his nasty nose at not only the laws of the U.S., but also at the Constitution of that country.

    How can anyone possibly be offended at their own perception of someone they believe in their opinion e.g. has so many shortcomings, are hypocritical, deceitful, lacking integrity etc. ( among other things ). …. The word insult comes to mind. We all write here – no matter our gender – with good intent ( initially ). Most will acknowledge when we are shown we are wrong.

    We all have the opportunity to learn here, but we don’t get anywhere with insult, and grievances that are so very personal. . It is completely un-necessary and totally counter-productive to do so. … Found this out myself – the hard way, some years back. In the long run – my own backlash, hurt only me.

    Something went really arse about here in the latter stages. … but seems to be back on an even keel now – thank heavens.

  132. Annie B

    Miriam – –

    As usual, I am behind the 8 ball – 11+ more posts while I was writing my previous post here. 😉

    And – duckduckgo looks like the goods – but notice it can be added to Chrome. ?? It gives that option – or recommends it on the right hand side of the screen, when accessing the duckduckgo website.

    Is it now linked to Google in some way ? …. and if so, does that alter its’ effectiveness at keeping privacy private ?

    Cheers ~~

  133. Roswell

    Annie, I share your frustration. No matter what the post, the same old same olds come rushing in to attack the authors or the commenters. They’re like snipers.

  134. Robert G. Shaw

    Miriam,
    forgive me for mistaking your 3 word feather tickle at the outset of the discussion for ‘strong disagreement”.
    Boy oh boy Miriam, you really let him have it, didn’t you?
    I’m surprised he could get up after such ferocious tickling.

    Pathetic.

    ………

    Kaye,
    I found my link. I rhought it clarified a few outstanding questions.
    The second one is primarily for support, and Tribe’s quote.

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/does-steve-bannons-role-principals-committee-require-senate-confirmation

    http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-01-31/steve-bannon-on-national-security-council-may-require-senate-confirmation

    On the other matter: you’re absolutely correct; rebuke was too strong a term. How about ‘advise’?
    Will that do?
    Let me try again.
    When you ‘advise’ others in the same manner, and with the same content as you do me, perhaps then I will look on your counsel a little more seriously.
    Perhaps then I will see the quality of ‘fairness’ on show.
    Till then however…..

    —-

    Annie,
    my ‘attack’ on Sean is an ‘attack’ on the handful of post truths he posted and attempted to pass on as legitimate, honest, and factual statements.

    It is not, contrary to common opinion, a personal attack in the sense that I know Sean personally, or that I have a personal quibble or dislike of him as an actual human being with a real presence in my life.
    This is only about the language and the ideas.
    It’s only ever about the language and the ideas.
    This is not about my, how did you put it, my ‘perception’; this is about the words, the argument, used. You would have duly noted that several others took umbrage with Sean’s tactics.

    Perhaps some here see my rigour as unnecessary. Perhaps others here are indifferent to Sean’s tactics.
    Well that’s their business.

    I see it as fundamental to the way we both treat and respectfully understand each other – our means of communication.
    For example: if Sean had made the necessary accommodations and either corrected his post truth, or provided a verifying link, after Matters Not had initially called him out, there would have been no, NO, further comment, from me, or from anyone else I imagine.
    Not one.
    This thread would have stopped 100 posts ago.
    Instead Sean chose another path.
    He chose to disrespect those engaged here by tossing out one rhetorical deceit after another.

    I, for one, find that extremely disagreeable, extremely counter productive, and most contemptuous. It’s the very stuff that we criticise Trump, Turnbull, Dutton, Bannon et al over on a daily, hourly, basis, yet are expected to hold off on such criticisms of our own?
    That’s bald, ugly, indefensible hypocrisy Annie, and I want no part of it.

    That’s my view on what’s occurred, in a nutshell.

    —-

    Harquebus,
    thank you, from one outlier to another.
    🙂

  135. Kaye Lee

    Interesting links thank you Robert. He may have found the loophole by the wording he has used.

    My advice for the day…….’Advising’ people all the time can be perceived as supercilious.

  136. Sean Stinson

    *eating popcorn

  137. Miriam English

    Harquebus, the page you linked to decrying facebook and Google also rails against a document False, Misleading, Clickbait-y, and/or Satirical ‘News’ Sources which was created and uploaded to Googledocs by Melissa Zimdars, assistant professor of communication & media at Merrimack College in Massachusetts.

    I’ve been reading Melissa Zimdars’ document and it is really very good. I wondered for a moment why theantimedia.org would be annoyed by it, until I realised she lists it as unreliable, biased, and a propagator of conspiracy theories.

    It might be a good idea to check it against the sites you regularly consume.

  138. jimhaz

    [Just another monopolistic parasite who made their fortune screwing us]

    Yep. Except from memory their massive stock value is more to do with future monopolistic profit plans, rather than just search engine/ads related income. Google will end up being a worse monopoliser than Microsoft was or tried to be.

  139. Annie B

    Robert – re : ” indefensible hypocrisy”

    Let’s have a look at the word “hypocrisy”. … eh ? Cambridge U. definition :

    “a situation in which someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe, or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time” ….. AND further …. “In constantly criticizing others for being intolerant while refusing to hear anyone else’s view, they are guilty of supreme hypocrisy.” …

    There were other examples. .. Oxford Dictionary ? …. “The practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case” … ( less explanatory, this one, with nebulous examples imo ).

    It would be my bet that at one time or another every poster [ including myself ] on every blog, website, social media and even in normal letter writing,- has been guilty ( knowingly, or unwittingly ) of ‘hypocrisy’. … part of the state of being human and therefore capable of making mistakes.

    __________

    I think perhaps you did not read my post ( February 2, 2017 at 12:16 am ) properly. .. I did say there, that “I, like many others, sometimes disagree with Sean” … so yes, I do see when others take umbrage at Sean’s ‘tactics’ as you label his comments / writings. … Thing is, we are all entitled to our opinions. Some display their opinions adversarily, some in quieter tones, some deliberately antagonistic, some as peace makers, and some downright abusive. Most try to post what they perceive as facts, often underwritten with links – yet some of those links are misleading and prove to be wrong. Nothing is perfect.

    One does not have to know another person, ‘personally’, to launch a written attack on them ( or not ). Writing is what it is, and is often a response to other writing. … Especially on the Internet, when a persons’ keyboard is all they have got. ( excluding Skype etc. ). … Even prose or poetry, is stimulated by something the writer of it, has been exposed to, has experience of, has heard about or has read. And certainly articles submitted to independent media ( or in letters to the editor of newspapers ) … come from the mind of a person who is responding to a stimulus.

    I am now moved to write an article on “Pedantry” …. ??? 😉 … On second thoughts……… not !

  140. Miriam English

    jimhaz, they might, but unlike Microsoft, Google has been pretty honest in their dealings so far. Microsoft had a pretty shady history from way back, when they would do everything they could to destroy anybody they couldn’t buy out. Microsoft’s unhesitating propagation of lies and nasty campaigns are many. So far, Google seems to be keeping pretty carefully to their company motto of “Don’t be evil”. Of course that could well change, and given the truth in Lord Acton’s observation, “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely” maybe they will. They don’t seem to have done yet. Fingers crossed.

  141. Annie B

    Again – to Robert –

    Kaye Lee has often been good enough to take the time to correct some mistake or misrepresentation I have made, and I sincerely thank her for that. …. It is most appreciated. … Others here, have done the same.

    From all this, I learn – and acknowledge their much more enlightened contributions, than I can give.

    If however, Kaye has misread or made a mistake herself ( a rarity ) .. she is gracious enough to acknowledge the correction. … Again that is respected and appreciated.

    I believe it to be ‘manners’ – and ‘in good faith’. … There is another commenter to AIMN, with whom I have had some ongoing written battles, occasionally bordering on scathing. … Yet if we agree, we do so with appreciation, and with no reference to previous uproars between us. …

    I hope you can appreciate this comment …….

  142. Annie B

    Miriam …

    you may have missed my question ( Feb 2, 12.22 am ) to you : c and p’d here :

    “And – duckduckgo looks like the goods – but notice it can be added to Chrome. ?? It gives that option – or recommends it on the right hand side of the screen, when accessing the duckduckgo website.

    Is it now linked to Google in some way ? …. and if so, does that alter its’ effectiveness at keeping privacy private ?”

    Do you have any thoughts on this ?

    Also note your comments about Microsoft ( and Google ) … I have mistrusted Microsoft for a very long time, and don’t intend to alter my opinion about them – although I still use Windows myself ( can’t afford an Apple replacement ). … Their Internet Explorer when applicable, was woeful.

    Cheers ~

  143. Miriam English

    Sorry Annie. I saw it and intended to reply, but it slipped my mind. And sorry about the long-winded reply below.

    Duck Duck Go actually uses Google, but when you initiate a search the query goes through Duck Duck Go servers in, I think, the Netherlands, where all identifying information is stripped to make the query anonymous. Then the query is submitted to Google. The results are returned to you.

    This makes Duck Duck Go a good way to avoid the filter bubble effect.

    Google normally keeps a record of your searches and the links in the results that you click, and uses this information to fine-tune the search to the kind of things you’re interested in. For instance if you are interested in string theory and search often for it, then searching for “dimension” will turn up theoretical physics results. If you are a carpenter it will turn up results about measuring devices. If you are a science fiction fan it will turn up results that reference stories about transdimensional travel. So most of the time this kind of fine-tuning works really well, but there is also the risk of each person just getting fed self-confirming data instead of ever seeing anything they disagree with, but which might widen their experiences. This is the filter bubble effect.

    I use a few (usually about 8) web browsers on my computer. My main web browser (seamonkey or firefox) has anti-tracking, script-blocking, ad-blocking plugins, another (firefox or chrome) I keep unencumbered, and another (dillo or lynx) is very primitive and fast and can’t execute scripts at all. The other web browsers are mainly for me to test stuff when I’m writing web pages, so wouldn’t be as useful for other people.

    Linux is a free and extremely secure alternative to Microsoft Windows. You don’t need outrageously expensive Apple (not many people realise Apple’s OSX is really a modified version of the BSD operating system, which is available for free download to run on any computer).

    My favorite version of Linux is Puppy Linux. While many forms of Linux, such as Ubuntu, Debian, RedHat, SuSE, Slackware, and so on have become quite popular now, they have often become large and slow (though not as slow as Microsoft Windows). Puppy Linux has moved in the opposite direction. It is very small and fast. Puppy was developed by retired electronics guy Barry Kauler in Western Australia several years ago. It has a number of nice advantages over other forms of Linux. One of its best qualities is that you can boot your computer from a CD (or a thumbdrive) so that it uses Puppy Linux and ignores Microsoft Windows. This way you don’t have to get rid of MSWindows. Puppy won’t touch your hard drive unless you specifically tell it to — in fact you can use it without a hard drive at all. (This feature makes it a great system for rescuing computers with corrupted hard drives.) Puppy can save your settings and changes to a special file on your hard drive though, so that next time you boot from the CD it will restore all your settings. This is how I started using Puppy more than a decade ago. I used a few other forms of Linux and Microsoft Windows on three different computers, but booted the MSWindows machine from CD when I wanted to use Puppy. After about a year I found I wasn’t using MSWindows at all anymore and preferred Puppy to the other forms of Linux. Now I only use Puppy Linux.

    There are many versions of Puppy Linux. My current favorite is Puppy Lupu 528. You can download it from:
    http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-5.2.8/lupulibre-528.005-1.iso
    You need to write the file to a CD as a disk image. The page
    http://puppylinux.org/main/Manual-English.htm
    Tells you more than you’ll need to know about how to get Puppy working in tiny steps.

    In that folder at ibiblio http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-5.2.8/ there is also a “devx” file which contains all the source code and compilers for you to compile and write programs if you desire. Most people won’t want to though, which is why it is a separate file.

    Puppy Lupu 528 is nearly 3 times the size of usual Puppy distributions because it has LibreOffice pre-installed (LibreOffice is a fork of the OpenOffice which is the free replacement for MicrosoftOffice). Of course, at less than 300MB it is still miniscule compared to Microsoft Windows and other forms of Linux.

    Almost all Puppies come with a simple wordprocessor (AbiWord) a simple spreadsheet (gnumeric), a movie player with codecs that let it immediately play virtually any video format (unlike Microsoft’s awful video player which has to get every codec from the net each time you play a different format), web browser, CD/DVD writer, a simple paint program (mpaint), a vector graphics editor (inkscape), and thousands of other programs. You can also easily install thousands of other programs from the software repositories. Virtually all of the software is free.

  144. Robert G. Shaw

    Annie, let me be crystal clear and remove the nonsense distractions off the table immediately.
    This has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, to do with ‘opinions’, or ‘disagreement’ between contributors (over article topic), or being ‘perfect’, or any other distraction you care to list.
    Nothing what so ever.
    It’s important that you understand that, because without that idea fixed in your mind we cannot move forward.

    This has to do with the manner of Sean’s prosecution (of his argument), an argument riddled with post truth, deceit, and sophistry.
    I found it offensive and disrespectful and called him out on it in an effort to glean correction.
    None was forthcoming despite that call (from myself and several others).

    That is the crux of this ongoing discussion.
    Why you would need me to repeat that is beyond me.
    Have you not read the conversation?

    Annie, if by ‘pedantry’ you mean a concern, rigourous, excessive, or otherwise, for detail and accuracy, then yes, please call me a pedant.
    On this blog I shall see it a badge of honour.
    Thank you.

    What strikes me as concerning, perhaps even more concerning than Stinson’s numerous infractions, is the level that some here, yourself now, Miriam, and Roswell included, have spent on my apparently errant behaviour in trying to hold him to account!
    It seems that my action is somehow the greater crime!

    For people who litter these pages on a daily basis with attacks on the deceitful rhetoric, the rancid misinformation, and the ingrained sophistry that characterizes our political discourse I would have thought such attitudes the height of hypocrisy.
    Apparently not.

    Once again, and for the last time, post truth deceit, hypocrisy, deliberate misinformation, and sophistry need to be exposed at every turn, no matter the source – whether it be Bannon or Stinson.
    It makes not one atom of difference to me.
    Not one electron.

    Now Annie or Miriam, or Roswell, or anyone, if you’ve got a problem with that view, intellectual or moral, then please present your argument to the contrary.
    If not, then please don’t bother me with your shenanigans.

  145. Kate Ahearne

    Miriam, Oh Boy! I’m glad I was sitting down when I read all that stuff! Amazing! I salute you! Go Girl.

  146. Kate Ahearne

    Robert, I agree with you to the extent that I, too, am deeply concerned with pretend facts and unsubstantiated claims. I do, however, find it very uncomfortable sometimes when people start flinging the nasty stuff around instead of just stating their case. I’m not thinking of you in particular, by the way. But isn’t it true that the mode of the message is part of the message? We all get exasperated at times, sometimes with good reason, and sometimes not. It’s a matter of where we draw our line in the sand, isn’t it? Let’s draw our line a fair bit closer to decent discourse and mutual respect than Donald Trump does.

  147. Miriam English

    Robert said, “and for the last time”

    Oh, wouldn’t it be lovely if that was true.

  148. Miriam English

    [sigh] I know I’m not supposed to feed the trolls, but….

    Robert complained, “It seems that my action is somehow the greater crime [than Sean’s]”.

    Yours is the greater crime, Robert. Sean listens and is reasonable and is informative. But you, Robert, you relentlessly spew acid over everybody while contributing little or nothing of substance. You rattle on and on, dripping hyperbolic scorn with every second word. Christ! If you despise the folk here so much why the hell are you here?

  149. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Thanks for that link. I will read it.
    This can work both ways however, I have no idea as to your regular sites. Perhaps it comes down to has the best bullshit meter.
    I used to go on about computers and stuff myself until, I found out that people were just being polite and nodding in agreement until I had finished. It all went completely over their heads.

    Robert G. Shaw
    I like the way that you argue mate. Articulate, non abusive and presented with honest opinions and supporting information.
    Goodonya.

    Cheers.

  150. Michael Taylor

    Let’s repeat part of what Miriam said:

    Yours is the greater crime, Robert … you relentlessly spew acid over everybody while contributing little or nothing of substance. You rattle on and on, dripping hyperbolic scorn with every second word. Christ! If you despise the folk here so much why the hell are you here?

    It’s worth repeating.

  151. jimhaz

    [Puppy Linux].

    Sounds good.

    Any idea if using it means I could bypass Windows 10 so I could play old PC games like Starcraft?

    If you don’t know from memory or personal experience, no probs, I’ll research next time I want to play such a game. It doesn’t actually sound like it.

  152. Annie B

    Miriam …

    Wow x 10. have c and p’d that information, for future reference — particularly for my own tech, who MUST get into this machine sooner than later ( I have been fixing things myself for ages, with success so far – sure hope I haven’t mozzed it all, because of that statement …. 🙂 . ).

    Thank you so very much. … very interested in the Puppy applications. And very much appreciated, the time and effort you put into your reply to my query. 🙂 ,,, A lot worthwhile to digest.

    Thank you 🙂

    ……….

  153. Harquebus

    Jimhaz
    Wine can be installed from the installation disk on most versions. Select when packages are offered.

    “Wine (originally an acronym for “Wine Is Not an Emulator”) is a compatibility layer capable of running Windows applications”
    https://www.winehq.org/

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/2900497/how-to-run-windows-software-in-linux-everything-you-need-to-know.html

    BTW: It is possible to have Windows and Linux on the same machine but, Windows must be installed first. The choice of operating system is offered on start up.

    Cheers.

  154. Annie B

    Robert. …

    There is nothing I dislike, and distrust more than the fake news information that can be found on social media ( in particular ). It stinks, and is subject to the domino effect – ( 1, 2, 4, 8 – 16 – 32 etc. ). Passed around by all kinds of bods, with all kinds of biases – as it suits them. Thus fake news / post truth, is aided and abetted via the medium of social media and questionable blog sites / conspiracy theorists and the like.

    It – is – rife.

    To that degree, I agree with both yourself and Kate Ahearne.
    __________________

    In your latest post Robert … you make a statement that is – er – puzzling to say the least. …. and it is upon which I will reply – and to no other comments you have made, as we are obviously NOT on the same page in so many respects.

    The comment !! :

    “This has to do with the manner of Sean’s prosecution (of his argument), an argument riddled with post truth, deceit, and sophistry.
    I found it offensive and disrespectful and called him out on it in an effort to glean correction.
    None was forthcoming despite that call (from myself and several others).

    That is the crux of this ongoing discussion.
    Why you would need me to repeat that is beyond me.
    Have you not read the conversation?”

    ….. Here’s the thing. 1) – I have read ALL of the conversations here. … .2) I have not specifically asked you to ‘repeat’ anything ! …( but you may have read some of my comments as being so ) – & 3 ) Once again, this is NOT – and never should have been – about any submissions / comments from Sean, specifically. The exchanges should be about the original article, as faithfully written by Jennifer Wilson.

    On that note, I have to bow out of the discussions between you and myself – as we are not going to agree on anything at all. Which is tantamount to a waste of time and effort.

    I, specifically, will no longer ‘bother you with shenanigans’ …. which is a rather patronising statement from you, and one I cannot / will not respond to.

    Have a good weekend Robert ……… ( sincerely ).

  155. Kaye Lee

    I am not sure that “Sean listens and is reasonable” all the time but he is informative to a degree. The problem for me is the important information is often littered with speculation presented as fact, conclusions that don’t necessarily follow, an extreme hatred of Obama and the Clintons that clouds objectivity, and way too many conspiracy and false flag allegations that are impossible to prove. And even occasionally things that are wrong.

    I like that Sean challenges us to think but I want to be able to trust what he is saying.

  156. Annie B

    Harquebus –

    Thank you for further input re Linux and now W.I.N.E – and its capabilities of running conjunct to Windows.

    Will leave it to my tech. to figure it all out … 😉

    Had a good laugh at your comment : “I used to go on about computers and stuff myself until, I found out that people were just being polite and nodding in agreement until I had finished. It all went completely over their heads.” – as I have experienced much the same ( even with my limited knowledge ).

    Last time was at a dinner when it was observed that my ‘eyes lit up like fire beacons’ … because someone started a conversation about IT – and I displayed interest. LOL. … Most around me are not polite !! … and simply tell me to shut the ‘f’ up !! … They call me a bloody nerd ( which I am absolutely not.) … Compared to many here, I am still in kindergarten …. 🙂

    ……..

  157. Miriam English

    jimhaz: what Harquebus said.

    However it might be worth investigating the FreeDOS project for playing old games. I don’t have any experience playing games so unfortunately I can’t help. (I don’t look down on games — I think they are amazing pieces of work. They somehow never held my interest.)

    You can set up FreeDOS to boot your computer from a flash drive. However recent computers might have UEFI instead of BIOS in the ROM chip on the computer’s motherboard. In that case you might be screwed. UEFI was developed by Microsoft to make it pretty-much impossible to boot anything except Microsoft Windows, though various forms of Linux have found ways around that. You can, for instance boot a Puppy variant called FatDog on UEFI computers.

  158. jimhaz

    Robert, because you make unnecessary chips like this all the time, I don’t really pay you posts any close attention.

    “Roswell, that ‘eye’ did notice it……about 12 hours ago.
    Which is why I mention it.
    Tell me, why did you remove it?
    Or, why was it allowed up without a check for accuracy?”

    Looking back through the thread, I can see that you do make a lot of valid and pertinent comments – but I just couldn’t be bothered getting involved in all the to and fro arguments that result. Time limited people need less verbage.

    You need to give people a break, nobodies perfect – aptly demonstrated by the antagonism you induce, by expecting them to fit to your expectations of veracity. It just will not happen.

    I have to assume you have something like Asbergers. Accept that you are not the headmaster – you are just another contributor.

    Make your points but avoid consistent bitchiness like this….
    “Try this one:
    “Think, think.
    Read.
    Think, think.
    Write.
    Think again.
    And again.
    Write some more.
    Think.
    And one last time, think.
    Press submit.”

    …or use it yourself to stick with justifying the conclusions you see to be incorrect, not so much the persons errors. Lol, you could do two versions, one for the Orchid Jar (that was you wasn’t it?) and one for here.

    Annie B,

    Just for the record, I don’t respond to you (and others) as your posts are too “chatty” for me. I lean to more precise posters, as I’m not a fast thinker, and need to be selective, otherwise I’d have to spend more time here than I wish. If I start thinking too much at night, when I have more free time, I have too much trouble falling asleep.

    I often wish posters would use Re: instead of @ if something is said that sparks interest. Its an open forum where most comments should be not specifically directed at another…not too often, anyway. Not more than 2 or 3 times per duo in a thread.

  159. Annie B

    Kaye … ref. a part of your comment – being : “The problem for me is the important information is often littered with speculation presented as fact”.

    This IS the problem, and contributes hugely to the “fake news – ‘post truth’ – false information”, that invades all forms of on-line content these days. … Many people try to post as truthfully as they can, but are besieged by ‘friends’ posts ( Twitter / Facebook / Tumblr etc. and they tend to want to trust long known friends, which can turn out to be a mistake ).

    Then emotions enter the scene, feelings are hurt ( I didn’t know HE/SHE believed THAT. or could say THAT ? )
    So wish more … and a nasty wave begins, building momentum as it goes. Some savvy people circumvent this, but cannot ‘unring the bell’ once it has been rung ( or heard ).
    positives could be encouraged – and this from a person who only 20 years ago, thought ‘positives’ were a load of crap. … Have discovered they are not – after all.

    And good grief – do we ever need all the positive posts and thoughts we can muster, in this day and age.

    Admittedly – off topic – but ….. Just sayin’. …

  160. Harquebus

    What can one say?

    “A bill to “completely abolish” the Environmental Protection Agency has been drafted that would close the main arm of the US Government responsible for fighting climate change by the end of next year.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/environmental-protection-agency-bill-drafted-abolish-matt-gaetz-congress-a7556596.html

    “Trump’s Supreme Court pick founded and led club called ‘Fascism Forever’ at his elite all-boys Washington prep school”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4182852/Trump-s-SCOTUS-pick-founded-club-called-Fascism-Forever.html

  161. jimhaz

    @ Miriam and Harquebus. Thanks for the info, but I have decided not to pursue it. Didn’t see a particular game I want for next holidays on Wine. I get too pee’d off if I stuffed up my Laptop. I’d expect I’ll adventure into Linux territory when I retire in a few years.

  162. Annie B

    jimhaz …. appreciate your thoughts … re : “Just for the record, I don’t respond to you (and others) as your posts are too “chatty” for me.”

    Oh how I totally agree – I continue to try and work on being ‘less chatty’ … and more specific in my responses. … You are correct – I have seen it myself – going over my posts. Waaaay too long.

    Bear with me – I will get it down pat one day 😉 … and 🙂

    However, to date, I tend to want to make myself totally understood – with no room for mistunderstandings … Sometimes that works, other times not !! …

  163. Miriam English

    Kate, wow! Trump, Bannon, and his other white supremacist buddies have seriously lost the plot.

    White supremacists and anti-government radicals have accounted for almost twice the number murders in the United States than Muslim jihadis in the years following the September 11 2001 terror attacks, a recent Washington research center study revealed.

    In the span of 15 years, anti-government radicals and white supremacists have reportedly killed 48 Americans, according to a count by New America. The number by far exceeded the 26 deaths caused by Muslim radicals in the same period.

    http://nextshark.com/white-supremacists-killed-people-islamic-terrorists-u-s-since-911/

    Of course all those are a drop in the bucket compared to the “ordinary” gun deaths. In 2015 there were 13,286 people killed by guns in USA (and that doesn’t count suicide). Terrorists (white and brown) account for less than 5 per year.

  164. jimhaz

    All I can say at the moment is that it is a sad world. I did write a post in relation to the EPA links above, but it was too pessimistic.
    Glad I’m away and offline for the next few days and can get somewhat away from Trumps violence.

  165. jimhaz

    @ Annie. Thanks for taking that gracefully….. and perhaps I’m being a bit “headmasterish” as well.

  166. Annie B

    jimhaz …

    Nope – you are no more ‘headmasterish’ here, than anyone else has been. Think I could honestly say, we’ve all had a go at that – from time to time.

    Having looked back on some of my own comments over the years, I really squirm. …. I have sounded like some old-fashioned fuss pot Granny – handing out advice to all and sundry. And Gawd help me, I still do on occasions.

    Will continue to work at being concise and factual, although that will probably be seen at times, as being ‘brusque’. 😉

    – and thank you for your kind comment.

  167. Roswell

    Annie, I must say that I always enjoy your comments.

  168. Annie B

    Thank you Roswell … much appreciated. 🙂

  169. Robert G. Shaw

    So much to respond to. 🙂

    Miriam,
    I don’t ‘despise the folk here’.
    I don’t ‘drip aside over everybody’.
    Why are you lying, yet again?
    When will you speak to the issue and put down that cumbersome and malevolent ad hominem you’ve been dragging around ever since we first stoushed?

    No, I don’t ‘despise the folk here’.
    I just despise your affected sighs, your personal provocations, your appalling comprehension, your inane contributions, your priggish attitude.

    I also despise Sean Stinson’s laughable and transparent bias, his petulance, his unwillingness to engage with contrary opinion, his petulance, his myopic attitudes towards Left politics, his ex cathedra, his petulance, his stubborn reluctance to link sources, his disregard for dialogue based on trust and honour, his near total avoidance of direct questions, and finally, his petulance.

    I also despise Roswell’s banal personal forays; never about the article, or about the topic under discussion, just a tiresome and tepid ad hominem.

    That just about covers it.
    No, one or two more, but I can’t seem to remember their names, probably not worth repeating anyway.

    And the rest?
    All good.
    Believe it or not, I actually like some!
    Who woulda thought??

    These are my opinions Miriam.
    I am allowed to have opinion on this site, aren’t I?
    You know opinions – like you recommending someone take their medication, or like jimhaz here saying I’ m too wordy?
    Opinions. You know, like your 8.34pm post.

    Miriam, allow me this most telling anecdote. It will tell you much about me and my conduct here.

    You say Sean is ‘reasonable, listens, and is informative’.
    He may well be. I just haven’t seen it. What I have seen is this:
    Since my time of direct contribution I’ve noted his caustic and mocking rejection of each and every link offered by a poster in support of their argument. These links have come from standard news outlets – NYT, WP, Time, et al. He has never bothered to directly contradict the content of the story, just the messenger, the medium. The content or the information linked is fundamentally flawed, his argument goes, because it comes from an organ of imperialist bias. It is lie, he continues, because it comes from the mouthpiece of a wildly rapacious neoliberal murdering Goebbels-like propaganda apparatus with untold capacity for deceit at every turn, and in every syllable.
    Never to be trusted. Never to be considered. Never to be quoted. And never to be used as supporting argument.
    Forget about the content. The point trying to be made by the person linking is rejected without him (Stinson) even bothering to speak directly to the idea.
    The simple fact of its appearance in a standard news outlet is reason enough for outright rejection.

    I have never seen him directly counter the specific content of an offered link.
    Never.

    Are you following me Miriam?
    Is everything clear?
    Good.

    Now, if one is of mind, as I am, this bizarre situation begs the question: what link is acceptable to Sean Stinson? If all of ours are the kind of sewer lies that pour from the bowels of imperialist propaganda machines, what news sources are deemed acceptable, which sites are the true and faithful emissaries of direct and untarnished ‘Truth’?
    Well, we were fortunate enough for him to give us a tiny glimpse the other day.
    In a conversation with Harquebus he dropped a link to support his notion of Venezuela’s wonderful political/social situation. It was in reference to the 4 links I’d offered from those disgusting organs of imperialist murder machines – the Guardian, the Nation. He didn’t refute the claims directly. Oh no, there was no need for that. He was able to link to one of his sites!

    So here it was!
    Finally we had the Holy Grail within grasp!
    We were about to witness ‘Truth’ in all its pristine shimmering glory.
    Fearful of the dazzle, lest it scald my retinas, I donned my dark UV protector sunglasses and pressed the link. I haven’t experienced such excited nervousness since I fumbled the bra strap of Michelle D. in high school in the winter of ’81.

    And the link Miriam?
    To what nirvana did the link direct me?
    To what pure place of zero bias was I transported?

    Yep, you guessed it.
    Granma.
    Do you know ‘Granma’ Miriam?
    No?
    Well I do.
    It’s the communist broadsheet of the Cuban communist party.

    And that loud noise you heard coming from outside your window?
    That was me, laughing. Laughing till the tears rolled.

    So by all means Miriam, you stick to your assessment of ‘reasonable’.
    I’ll stick to my laughter.

    ………

    Thank you Harquebus.
    Much appreciated.

    ………

    Annie,
    to your first paragraph.
    That is my argument, lock, stock, and barrel, since my first comment on Stinson’s post truth. Every comment I’ve made since that first, every word I’ve written, has been a reiteration, an extended emphasis, or a defense of that single position – no distraction, no deviation. On point and as clear as is humanly possible, for me.

    Allow me now to address those ‘puzzling’ aspects of your highlighted passage.
    1. If you had read, and clearly understood, the conversation then it’s my firm belief you would have no need to refer to this issue, as you had in your previous submissions, and the ones I was specifically referring to, as being concerned with ‘opinion’, or whether those opinions are expressed in ‘quieter tones etc’, or about ‘how nice Kaye is when she corrects you or herself’.

    I was attempting to bring you back to point Annie; to Stinson’s deceitful practice.
    How you could have read the entire conversation and still not see the cardinal point I was making simply defies credulity.

    3. I understand your point, but it’s entirely unrealistic. The nature of this medium and this forum is that topics are as varied and tangential as the contributors they attract. One thread line is adopted, another discarded with a whimsy that defies strict editorial control.
    Sure, following an article lead is a wonderful thing, only if there are people interested enough to follow it.
    Blogging is democracy in action. The good, the bad, and the most decidedly ugly.

    Being a good Leftie, I’ll take the lot!

    I too, now, am done.

    See you on another thread.
    Thanks for the chat.

    …….

    jimhaz,

    Fair enough. We all do things differently.
    Isn’t it wonderful that that is the case?

  170. Miriam English

    Robert, no, you never gasbag on and on with scornful hyperbolé. :/

  171. Roswell

    “I also despise Roswell’s banal personal forays; never about the article, or about the topic under discussion, just a tiresome and tepid ad hominem.”

    What an outstanding piece of hypocrisy.

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