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Prime Minister, Why haven’t you called Putin?

Tony Abbott you are weak. When interviewed by Fran Kelly on ‘Insiders’ this morning you were asked if you had called Vladimir Putin. You said you hadn’t called the Russian President over the murder of at least 28 Australians. You gave no indication that you intended to. Why not? Are you too frightened? You say you have spoken to the Russian Trade Minister. Really? What a pathetic reply to a genuine opportunity to show the world that you view the deaths of innocent Australians sufficiently important enough to get on the phone and demand answers. You are clearly not up to the job you have been elected to do.

Putin 2

Putin: image by telegraph.co.uk

You haven’t even spoken to any of the families of the victims. You are waiting for them to ask you to call. You are pathetic. You appear so out of your league in the face of a world tragedy. You are further from a national leader than we have ever seen. Certain elements of the media are giving you credit for your unambiguous condemnation of this act of terrorism and your criticism of the Russian government. How easy is it to mouth-off from a safe distance? Leadership is being pro-active. If any of your advisers were worth their salt, they would have advised you to get on the phone. Did they? If they did, why haven’t you?

All this talk about not inviting Putin to the G20 in November is nothing more than sabre-rattling and a convenient deflection from the proper response of face to face or voice to voice contact.

You owe the relatives of the victims a proper response to our nation’s outrage.

For Christ’s sake show some leadership!

 

152 comments

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  1. jagman48

    John the whole interview was a farce. No amount of wringing hands and repetative mutterings will paint this man as anything like a Prime Minister.

    God help us and bring on an election.

  2. koaladundee

    “Prime Minister, Why haven’t you called Putin?”……. you are a disgrace to Australia !!!!!!!

  3. Florence nee Fedup

    Now is not the time to be talking about Putin and the G20 Pen of water will flow under the bridge before that.

    wonder how much evidence can be found on the ground, as to who is guilty. It is clear, that it was bought down by a air to air missile. Pretty clear which party shot it.. Yes, this is a war zone. Cannot see how Putin can just walk in,. telling these rebels what to do. Cannot see how Putin can get the Ukraine leader to cooperate.

    Time to concentrate on getting cooperation, in getting the bodies out. Yes, and the process of identifying them, getting them home.

    Making idle threats, which one is unlikely to be aloe to carry our, only muddies the water, making the present task harder. That is looking after the victims and the families of this disaster.

    If it was my family affected, I would be screaming from the rooftops, that I do not want my grief to become a political football for this PM.

    That is what a true statesman and diplomat would be doing. Not making threats, that makes any solution harder.

    Abbott must be serious. We see Margie out this morning, By the way, he flew rom Canberra this morning.

  4. Florence nee Fedup

    Today we have nannies. Every Sunday morning, we have a new policy announcement by this government, hoping to divert attention, What has happened to announcing things during the week, or in parliament.
    Early learning is more important than PLL. Yes, and is much more than childcare. It is the beginning of the child’s education.

  5. Dan Rowden

    Why would Putin take a call from Abbott? Seriously, why? I wouldn’t.

  6. Shirley

    It’s the intent behind the action that counts Dan. That Abbott hasn’t even attempted to call is the issue here. Whether Putin accepts the call or not is beside the point. Abbott is a gutless and weak leader.

  7. corvus boreus

    I think Tony is both brave and sensible.
    You should not indulge in any ‘analysis paralysis’ before, finger-wagging a superpower, and megaphoning it through the press rather than a discreet chat is by far and away the best way to get a message across.
    Making a difference, and winning friends along the way.
    Tony represents straya.

  8. Dan Rowden

    Shirley,

    It’s a bit late for Abbott to call Putin. He’s already stuffed it. What could he possibly say that won’t simply insult the guy?

  9. randalstella

    Genuine outrage about Abbott’s ineptitude and gross unsuitability to his office needs to be careful about hyperbole.
    I do not know why Abbott blamed Russian separatists so quickly. Is it just his usual reactionary grandstanding or did he have proof so soon? It is of course exactly correct to ask him what he is actually doing about it, other than using it as self-legitimating publicity.
    I think Putin has plenty of challenge from the Dutch Government..
    I cringe at the image of the profoundly stupid, deceitful and presumptuous Julie Bishop representing Australia’s interests internationally, especially on such a serious matter.

  10. MissPamela

    Yep. He’s done it again! Displayed his amazing tact, diplomacy and compassion to the whole world!

  11. Dan Rowden

    Abbott calling Putin would be purely symbolic. I have no problem with symbolism but Abbott is not that sort of man. He would stuff it up completely; therefore it should not happen. It’s why we have ambassadors. His not calling Putin may in fact be a quiet acknowledgement of an appreciation of his limitations. Maybe Peta should do it. Her name sounds a bit like “Kremlin” if you say it fast enough.

  12. geoffreyengland

    Call Putin? He’s too much of a coward. He’ll just issue stern warnings over the news, or call in an Ambassador or two.
    Abbott is NOT a Leader, but rather a spineless shonk. Completely out of his depth, and it’s showing.

  13. James Cook

    Once again, Big-Noting Tony. Remember how he was only hours away from finding the missing Malaysian aircraft just a few months ago?That went well. Now he knows who shot this plane down and probably has indentikit pictures of the perpetrators. (I’m betting they are swarthy, bearded Syrian types) Of course the rocket launchers wouldn’t have been towed away yet, would they? And whoever fired the rocket will be still hanging around with rocket launch residue on their hands, I’ll bet.

  14. ranterulze

    Has Abbott not called the families because he actually feels no compassion?

  15. patrick whittaker

    Vote this dickhead out next election!!!

  16. corvus boreus

    We had best get Ms Bishop (the J one) in for some damage control. Perhaps a video conference so she and Vlad can exchange some eye-ice.

  17. James Lee

    Mr Abbott Australia does not want the man responsible for these murders in our country at all. Tell him he is nor welcome.

  18. Kaye Lee

    Do we really want Rasputin ringing the Russian government? My real objection to this is, as others have said, that Tony is doing his sabre-rattling in press conferences and interviews. This is inflammatory as have so many of their moves been. Rather than talking to their foreign counterparts they print it in the Murdoch press or give a doorstop or go on the Bolt Report or 2GB.

    Bishop in a tv interview saying “we don’t need Indonesia’s permission to turn back boats”. Letting the press know that you are calling in the Chinese ambassador or the Russian ambassador so they can be hounded by photographers. Making a big deal in the press about renaming the Occupied territories.

    Any journalist who interviews the Coalition front bench should be locked up for putting the national interest at risk.

  19. Lee

    He can get his ugly dumbarse mug on tv and spruike BS about justice and acts of terrorism but he hasn’t got the balls to call Putin. Why am I not surprised? Abbott and the entire LNP front bench should have been on that plane. Then we could call it a humanitarian act.

  20. Gilly

    Abbott and Putin, two real macho he men. They could show real leadership and duke it out in the ring taking responsibility for their own incompetence. Instead they will wimp it out in the guise of being National leaders.

  21. margaret millar

    I think that Abbott neeeds to be very careful in dealing with Putin who is a very powerful man and I do not think that our PM has done well by saying on Australian TV that Putin was absolutely responsible for shooting down the aircraft –I do not really think that Putin would have acted so -I think that he is a far too experienced a politician to do such a thing–even thinking that it was not a civilian aricraft–
    Certainly there is a civil war on close to Russia ie in the Ukrain –a war beween those who wish to become a part of Russia and those who wish to break away –did the rebels mistakingly bring down the aircraft ? It seems so but to accuse Putin is not really the way to go. Australia is a small player in this, so let us keep out of it–except by expressing our horror and grief at the deaths of Australians.
    It appears that the remains of the aircraft and of the dead are being moved so that any full examination is not possible! Who is doing this

  22. lawrencewinder

    “Rabbutt-the-Hun”, “…there were 36 who Called Australia Home…” Can this mongrel Prime Miniature talk in anything other than cliches?
    And that malevolent Gargoyle Henderson opining that “THe Hun” “…is leading the world.”… ooooohhh Puulleeease

  23. Kaye Lee

    Lawrence,

    the really spooky thing was Henderson at the end of the show saying that many on that lounge predicted Abbott wouldn’t last…he actually smiled. It was frightening.

  24. corvus boreus

    GERARD
    Henderson gargoyle?
    greased, slithered into vinyl.
    No, Henderson gimp.

  25. Terry2

    One of the less discussed strategies in the political spin cycle is the posturing that politicians are called on to make when there has been a national or international tragedy either involving Australians or Australian lives.

    The advisers instruct their subject to show strength and leadership , make strong and, in this case, combative statements that grab headlines , distribute to the media photos of the subject looking tough and resolute and, of course visit the site of the tragedy where possible and hold a memorial church service.

    I would suggest that a majority of the PM’s spin team would have considered a call Putin but there were risks with that so Abbott chose to use a media foghorn which now makes it unlikely that Putin would take a call from Abbott anyhow.

    In so many respects this is an international and national tragedy but don’t for a minute think that the political media managers will not use these opportunities to their political advantage : remember after ‘nine-eleven’ the British political spinners used that opportunity as a time to release less than popular political messages to the media.

  26. whatismore

    Thank goodness for this article, John. I was in a white rage after watching the interview and panel commentary. Jagman48 called it correctly as a farce. Moreover, it was an attempt by the ABC, led by Fran Kelly, to whitewash Abbott. Kelly’s disgraceful comment, about the repeal of the clean energy legislation, “it’s hard to take it all seriously compared to …..” shows she has no understanding of the seriousness of climate change.

  27. Roswell

    I made the mistake of reading news.com where they boast that Abbott is ‘leading’ world condemnation. Give me a break.

    As for Abbott himself, to say that 38 Australians were ‘snuffed out’ was utterly insensitive, inappropriate, and pathetic.

  28. my say

    This grub just beggers belief,He just can’t help himself,has to bring his family back ,polling must be low,
    He had the hide to say his girls flew with Malaysia airlines a few months ago ,So did many other families and guess what you grub ,your family is no more precious than any one elese’s are,keep your trap shut, so u dont embarase us anymore.

  29. marwill10

    I watched The Insiders this morning but did not hear Abbott say he hadn’t rung Putin. He didn’t really answer Fran Kelly’s question. I think it’s possible that he had made a phone call which wasn’t accepted. And, as has been asked earlier by Dan “Why would Putin take a call from Abbott? Seriously, why? I wouldn’t.” Amen to that.

  30. Dan Rowden

    I made the mistake of reading news.com

    I have my browser organised such that if I inadvertently click a news.com link it redirects to a random porn site. Interestingly, I’ve yet to really tell the difference.

  31. Pingback: Prime Minister, Why haven’t you called Putin? | THE VIEW FROM MY GARDEN

  32. Dan Rowden

    “[…] on Friday the Parliament stood as one in grief at this tragedy of incomprehensible proportions.” – Tony Burke

    Sorry I missed that event; I was busy reading about Gaza. That’s far more comprehensible.

  33. mars08

    Gaza. Outrage? Gaza? Gaza????? What? Um… where?

  34. John Kelly

    Marwill10, I watched the interview again on iView and it was clear to me that when asked the questions ‘Hand he rung Putin’ and ‘Will he ring Putin’ he deflected to other matters. My impression from his answers is that he had not tried and didn’t intend to. If he had tried, there would be no shame in saying that Putin would not take the call. If he had rung, I’m sure he would have said so.

  35. Dan Rowden

    John,

    I’m curious as to what it is that you think Abbott ought to say to Putin. I get the domestic symbolism of the act but can’t understand what you imagine would be the practical benefit.

  36. Caz

    Can you imagine the outcry if Putin came to the G20? Some of his strong arm tactics might come back to haunt him. I think our PM handled this so well. He has spoken out where others are playing it cautious. Putin is hungry for power and warm water ports. He is vanity personified,and needs to be restrained.

  37. John Kelly

    Dan, the symbolism is both important for the nation and the relatives of the dead. What would i say? I would say this:
    Mr President, we are a shocked and grieving nation. We have lost 28 of our citizens and another dozen who live here permanently. They have died as a consequence of a civil war that you are supporting and supplying. We are hearing reports of interference in the crash site by the separatists you support, that bodies are being moved and personal belongings being looted. This is an outrage. I call upon you to intervene immediately and bring this activity to a halt. I also call on you to give unfettered access to the relevant authorities to investigate the crash site and to give them every assistance in their investigation.

    That, Dan would be just the beginning of what I would say. Abbott is too timid, too far out of his league.

  38. Matthew Oborne

    we are incensed at the criminal deaths of 38 Australians and demand answers. Where is the outcry for the 46 refugees we handed over to war criminals? where is the international assistance that Morrison and friends be prosecuted for what constitutes a crime against humanity? Moral outrage that suits our political agenda rather than being a stance against such crimes is not moral it is opportunistic.

  39. Gregory T

    Dan, how about “shit happens”

  40. Alan Spencer

    A great article by John Kelly. I am deeply embarrassed as an Australian that we as a nation of 20+ million have elected a man of this inept character, shooting his mouth of without discerning the facts and displaying appropriate diplomacy. Shamefully embarrassing clichés at the expense of grieving families and a global tragedy is not smart. Our future as a smart nation is in tatters….

  41. Dan Rowden

    Ok, the reporting of the MH17 tragedy just got deeply idiotic and offensive. This is the sort of disgusting shit I’d expect from a Murdoch rag:

    An international outpouring of grief continues after the shooting down of flight MH17 killed 298 people, including 28 Australians and eight permanent Australian residents

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-20/live-world-mourns-victims-of-malaysia-airline-mh17-disaster/5609702

    Yeah, so we don’t need to be quite so upset about those eight people because they weren’t quite as Australian as the other ones.

    Eff me dead. Then again, maybe it’s just me being reactive to what I perceive as jingoistic behaviour. Maybe the distinction is being made purely for the purposes of accuracy in reporting. It looks horrible to me, though, I have to say.

  42. corvus boreus

    Tony should send Vlad a 2 minute video tape of him silently glaring and nodding , and licking his lips like a goanna. It would speak volumes.

  43. RalphG

    To juxtapose recent events:

    On July 3,1988 the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air flight 665 killing all 290 people aboard.

    The then US President, George Bush, said about a month later in relation to the incident:

    “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.”

    According to Wikipedia:

    The United States government “expressed regret only for the loss of innocent life and did not make a specific apology to the Iranian government.”

  44. sdrawkcaB

    Ralph G,
    That was the first thing to come to my mind.

    Shooting planes down sucks but pointing the finger in blame -dont think so.

  45. RalphG

    cb, it’s funny that you should mention Tony Abbott licking his lips. I was doing some research on a different subject and came across an article by Mike Carlton from 2010 on the Sydney Morning Herald website.

    He says that it is very easy to tell when Abbott is about to lie:

    Actually, there’s an easy way to pick it. Watch his lips. When People Skills is about to lie, or to “go a little bit further”, to borrow his own exquisite phrase, a strange thing happens. He flicks his tongue like a lizard. It’s a nervous tic I have noticed often over the years, and a dead giveaway every time.

    There’s the tongue, in and out between those oddly dysmorphic lips. Next a splattering of ”ums” and ”ahs”. Then away he goes with the porky. Abbott’s floundering admission on the 7.30 Report, that you shouldn’t believe a word he says, was riveting stuff. The tongue popped out, the ums gathered pace, disaster loomed. It was like watching a skier whoosh down a slope and crash into a tree.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/another-bedroom-brouhaha-let-loose-in-our-lounge-rooms-20100521-w1pj.html

  46. RalphG

    sdrawkcaB, hopefully the truth will eventually come out.

  47. Anne Byam

    Hang on follks. While I do NOT have any allegiance whatsoever, to the cold eyed, ex-KGB, stony-silence and most likely extremely manipulative Russian leader Putin … I think we all have to remember that this horrid act of violence took place over the Ukraine. There is no demarkation line in place for the separatists ( who want to align back to Russia ) … and that line is not likely. If they want to secede, then so be it but it would be difficult. It’s very much an internal issue – IN the Ukraine. Much like if Victoria or any other State in Australia decided ( irrationally ) to secede. So – we have a dissident group of separists in a small area of one of the largest countries in Europe ( Google it if you don’t believe ) … who are STILL a part of the Ukraine – whether they like it not. And they or someone, have hit a button which killed 298 innocent souls. Where the missiles came from is almost ( ALMOST ) not important. They could have come from being stolen ( or GIVEN for political reasons ) from the major Ukraine area, from Russia, or from any of the many countries that border the Ukraine – SEVEN at last count. The Ukraine is the second most heavily armoured country in Europe, outside of Russia. Given the politics that reign at this time there, how can ANYBODY point the blame absolutely anywhere ???????? There is a long long way to go, before this is ever sorted out. Just WHO did WHAT and WHY ?. The burning question…… I doubt that it is as cut and dried as many believe. So much is yet to be proved ( if ever ) … and pointing fingers ( especially from our own leader ) … is NOT going to help anything at all. Think about it.

  48. Anne Byam

    AND I have read here, that Abbott has not yet bothered to personally contact the distraught and grieving relatives of the families. What kind of a creature is he ? Tell ya what – his mentor, John Howard would NOT be pleased with that oversight. Proving again, Abbott is for himself, and only for himself. But it will backfire on him sooner or later ( I hope sooner ). Stupid, stupid man that he is.

  49. Anthony Edwards

    Are we getting the answer you think we deserve prime minister?!!

  50. corvus boreus

    RalphG,
    There is psychology behind the tongue flick?
    I thought he was just tasting the air, licking for a waft of carrion.

  51. Hotspringer

    Some Australians died; A bott’s previous reply: “Shit happens.”
    He and tsar Vlad are brothers in spirit.
    IF his and Hockey’s budget is allowed to pass, it will kill many more Australians than Vlad.
    Not that A bott cares.

  52. corvus boreus

    John Kelly,
    My computer formats the article with the images of you and sweet Vladamir side by side. This is unfortunate. You have similar ecomony of follicle, both wear dark, collared shirts , posing the same in similar settings.
    It looks like the before and after photos in an add for a short course in “Predatorily Assertive Strategms and Tactics in Interpersonal Negotiations (aka jerk school)”.

    You wouldn’t believe it but this is the same person!
    This is John. The John on the left was a social worker, afflicted with compulsions to acts of non-renumerated volunteering and socially beneficial intervention.
    After 3 hours with Dr Addam Smythe (hon. fellow) he transformed into the John on the right.
    As you can see, he has hardened his features into a sculpted terminator, lost all open-ness of aspect, pimped up his collar and donned the aviator glasses of the true predator. He now sees all interactions as exploitive opportunities and all setbacks as grudges.
    John now has a successful career brokering real estate for Alzheimer’s afflicted property owners.

  53. John Kelly

    Too scary to think about. Hmm, actually now you stop and think about it, maybe 20 years ago?

  54. randalstella

    John Kelly, at 8:49 am 21/7/14
    No you did not. I refer to my post above at 11:06 am 20/7/14. The first sentence.

  55. John Kelly

    It also makes his claim on ‘Insiders’ that he didn’t have access to Putin look flimsy to say the least.

  56. Dan Rowden

    Maybe Putin was busy fielding calls from the other 8 world leaders whose nations lost people.

  57. Florence nee Fedup

    It appears Abbott has spoken to Putin. Not sire who rang who. Abbott is reluctant to talk about the conversation, but said Putin has said all the right things. He is going to make sure Putin keeps his word. Yes, and Mr Abbott, you might also get those pink pigs to fly.

    Out on the radio, early this morning. Trouble is, he has nothing new to say.

    He sent his condolence to the Aids Conference.. Would have been better to keep his appointment to open the conference, to tell those there in person.

    Of course, if he attended, he might have been asked some embarrassing questions. Like, why he has cut funding to research? Especially so, when the are on the verge of success.

  58. Dan Rowden

    Florence,

    He is going to make sure Putin keeps his word. Yes, and Mr Abbott, you might also get those pink pigs to fly.

    Yeah, that’s pretty funny. The intellectual and ethical wasteland that is Tony Abbott is going to keep the second most powerful man in the world – and a certified loon – to his word. Hilarious, in a sad kind of way.

  59. Lawriejay

    Gerard (Smiley) Henderson speaking on (Insiders 20/7 )said when commenting on the abominable MH-14 matter that “Tony Abbott has become the strongest leader in the world on this issue …..much greater importance …. no longer a little known leader …. etc”.
    Knowing Mr Henderson’s own clout in analysing and commenting on world issues I took his word. I’ve now scoured the most influential news outlets in the world to back up his contentions – the Huffington Post – New York Times – Boston Globe, also his home country’s (London) The Times none of which gave the slightest mention of the vociferous Mr Abbott or the virulent Ms Bishop the Washington Post in a article headed :
    “In court of public opinion, Putin goes on trial”

    Australia gets a mention and has this to say:

    “Australia raised the prospect of banning Putin from a G-20 meeting of the world’s most powerful nations in November if he did not exert more pressure on the rebels who left corpses strewn on the ground for days, contaminated the crash site, and hampered an international investigation.”
    Not the slightest mention of Bishop Abbott.
    Amusingly the Washington Post has this sub article :
    Washington Post
    Mr. Miliband goes to Washington
    Sebastian Payne:

    “The potential next prime minister of the United Kingdom is visiting D.C. — and no one has realised it.”

    Now that is how you become a known player on the world stage.

    America’s own Fox News mentions :

    “Starbucks barista faces firing over small tattoo.”

    but no mention of Bishop Abbott

  60. Möbius Ecko

    Because of the early remark he made on Russia both Malaysia and the Netherlands won’t take a phone call from Abbott.

    That was in an online media piece that I don’t know the veracity of.

  61. Michael Taylor

    You would have noticed that the site was down yesterday. I apologise for that. It appears we have grown to the size where we ran out of the amount of room WordPress allocates us. We’ve been able to get the site back up – obviously – but until the problem is fully overcome we’ve had to conserve ‘energy’. That means that the images can’t appear on the front page nor can we write new articles.

    As luck would have it, our web developer and WordPress guru went on leave last Friday. We are looking at alternatives, but please appreciate that we have to consider the cost. If it is prohibitive we may have to wait until we are able to contact the developer. His staff are doing what they can in the meantime.

    Murphy’s Law: The greater the problem, the greater the chance that the person who can fix it is on leave.

  62. Florence nee Fedup

    Has anyone given any explanation why Putin would want to bring that plane down, Not in his interest from where I sit.

    Tony on early this morning. Giving another media conference. Got to keep all ramped up. Cannot let things die down. Will assume he will have nothing else new to say. Will be as usual, all about him.

  63. randalstella

    From Dan Rowden’s reference at 9:25 am
    Mark Kenny’s SMH article reports poor polling for the Government; and claims that this may be because it has failed to “build a case” for its budget. Bemusing, as they did not need to “build a case” for anything before the election. Why now?
    It also refers to the polling results as despite Abbott’s’ “assured handling” of the MH17 murders. How is a case for that claim ‘built’? Pretty much like the MSM support for the LNP before the election. A mere matter of promoted impressionism, supporting bald assertions and adversarialism for the sake of drama. Drama suits hidden vested interests.
    The MSM can pull the strings on public opinion because it can be entirely arbitrary on what it supports and promotes and what it denigrates; and fair truth has nothing to do with it, except as counter-example. Drama always trumps details.
    That’s how this dirty rabble are within 4% of being returned as Government. A second term for these gangsters could destroy this country irreversibly, particularly given the inclinations to march Right of the MSM-shy ALP.

  64. Florence nee Fedup

    I suspect that this civil war, and the bringing down of the plane, is not the biggest problem Obama or Europe have on their plate at this time.

  65. Lee

    “The survey period straddled the deaths of 37 Australian citizens and residents aboard Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which was shot down over eastern Ukraine on Thursday night.
    Mr Abbott’s assured handling of the atrocity in the hours since has been widely commended but has not been reflected in this poll result.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/hostile-climate-for-pm-despite-repeal-of-tax-20140720-3c9do.html#ixzz383yLz3Ws

    Looks like Australia is still comprised largely of idiots.

  66. mars08

    We have just commemorated 100 years since a relatively minor incident in that part of the world, mismanaged by weak politicians resulted in the death of millions.

    Seems our clueless media and opportunist politicians have learned very little from that tragedy.

  67. Dan Rowden

    I can’t see any benefit to either side of the Ukraine fighting in bringing down a civilian airliner. The mistaken identity theory is the only one that makes sense in my head. You’d have to be pretty insane to want to bring an international shitstorm down on yourself. To what purpose?

  68. Lee

    They are insane. The separatists want to belong to another country and they think war is a better option than emigration.

  69. mars08

    Lee:

    They are insane. The separatists want to belong to another country and they think war is a better option than emigration.

    Unfortunately it’s not that clear-cut.

    As far as I can tell, Ukraine (as we know it) came into existence as part of the Soviet and it has only been a sovereign nation since March 1991. Like so much of that part of the world, ethnic divisions and national borders don’t always coincide. For example, in the Crimean Peninsula (governed by Ukraine since 1954), ethnic Russians make up nearly 60% of the population. The next biggest group are the Ukrainians at just 24%.

  70. oldfart

    on a slightly different tack, the news of the world lives on. One of ruperts robots visited the mh17 site, not satisfied with hacking a dead girls phone this moron went through a suitcase at the crash site, out it on the web. did he get sacked? No.

  71. oldfart

    the ukrain was in existance before 1991, it was invaded by the germans in ww2 and the population favoured the germans over the soviets at that stage. So much so, Ukrainians were used as guards in concentration camps

  72. oldfart

    One of Ruperts robotic journoes went to the crash site, not satisfied with hacking mobile phones this clown started rummaging through passenger luggage. News of the world habits are hard to give up it would seem

  73. mars08

    That’s right, oldfart. Ukraine, in some form, has existed for hundreds of years. But it didn’t consolidate into it’s current form until the 20th century.

  74. Michael Taylor

    The Beatles were singing about ‘those Ukraine girls’ back in 1968.

  75. Lee

    “Unfortunately it’s not that clear-cut.”

    I disagree. A group of people want to live differently so they are killing each other over it. They can’t live how they want if they get themselves killed in the process. There are no winners in war (except for Haliburton).

  76. MIssPamela

    I am not very knowledgeable politically, but can some one explain to me the difference between Russia supporting and selling / supplying arms to the Pro-Russian Rebels (which has now seemingly resulted in the death of hundreds of innocent people) and the US supporting selling / arms supplying the Israelis for a conflict which most definitely continues to result in the deaths of hundreds of innocent people – not as a one of but daily? Australia condones and supports this.
    Is this not another case of double standards / hypocrisy?
    Re the news about the Murdoch reporter – surely he should be arrested by the Ukrainian Government and charged with looting for starters – that is totally disgusting!

  77. Lee

    “Is this not another case of double standards / hypocrisy?”

    Yes it is.

  78. Kaye Lee

    And the Syrians….

    US politicians believe national intelligence community can ensure that the military assistance goes to the right hands.

    “Our intelligence agencies, I think, have a very good handle on who to support and who not to support,” Senator Bob Corker said on CBS on Sunday. “And there’s going to be mistakes. We understand some people are going to get arms that should not be getting arms. But we still should be doing everything we can to support the free Syrian opposition.”

    CIA also reportedly helped countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar to smuggle weapons to the rebels.

  79. Kaye Lee

    They keep announcing that the government is thinking about declaring the downing of the plane a terrorist act. That’s like announcing in the media that you are thinking about getting engaged but you haven’t asked anyone yet. I wish he would concentrate more on speaking, or better still listening, behind the scenes and less on his interviews. Seriously, he is giving us blow by blow descriptions of things that are suspected but not proven, risking international relationships as he goes, but he cannot tell us about those poor souls incarcerated at sea because it is not in the national interest to release such information and may endanger our navy. Could I suggest intemperate words reported prematurely in the media is putting us ALL at risk. Tony only seems to becaome talkative when a Malaysian plane goes down.

  80. MIssPamela

    As we all know – Smoke and Mirrors to distract us from important issues, both international – as mentioned above – and the Budget, Asylum Seekers / Refugees, the Environment etc nationally. He clearly thinks the Australian public are very easily distracted. As for how he is seen by the international community – well he is simply reinforcing their opinion that he is a political and diplomatic joke!

  81. mars08

    Can we ask who was arming the Islamic rebels fighting against al-Assad’s forces in Syria?

  82. Kaye Lee

    ^^^^ see above mars08

  83. mars08

    Oh… sorry Kaye Lee. I just noticed that you’ve already covered that particular fiasco.

  84. Terry2

    The 37 ‘Communications and Media Specialists’ in the Prime Minister’s Department are really earning their money with TA appearing almost constantly with media briefings on MH17, this will notch up those ‘approval ratings’ and they know it.

    As noted by Kaye Lee and Miss Pamela, there are some double standards at play here and, in particular the 153 asylum seekers who left India in mid June and were ‘disappeared’ by Scott Morrison on or about 3 July (that’s 3 weeks that they have been held at sea, incommunicado). You can anticipate some potentially hefty damages claims from these people as we have no legal rights when it comes to apprehending people on the high seas and denying them due process as asylum seekers: we have a multi-million dollar processing facility on Christmas Island and we refuse to transport theses people there due solely to the stubborn intransigence of the Immigration Minister backed by this Prime Minister.

    I hope the High Court can help theses people and salvage our democracy and our self respect as a nation.

  85. mars08

    There’s much more to Russia’s support for the separatists than is being covered by the our lazy MSM. Here’s a couple of articles (written by Americans) to provide background:

    http://www.thenation.com/article/new-american-cold-war <<< Article from 7 years ago

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/15/how-nato-jabs-russia-on-ukraine/ <<< Written by ex US Army officer who worked as a CIA analyst for 27 years. Author also wrote for the President’s Daily brief under Presidents Nixon and Ford.

  86. RalphG

    Malcom Fraser was interviewed on ABC Melbourne radio this morning and gave some interesting insights on the situation.

    He said that Russia’s involvement was triggered by the West pushing for the inclusion of the Ukraine in NATO. The Black Sea ports of Crimea are strategically important to Russia (the Black Sea fleet is located there) and that the Ukraine joining NATO would put these assets at risk – something Russia would not tolerate.

    Fraser went on to say that Putin’s annexure of Crimea and support of the rebels was to prevent a war that would certainly follow if Crimea effectively fell under control of NATO.

    I suppose you have to put yourself in Putin’s shoes and look at the situation from his perspective. Better still, imagine that it was the US in that position instead of Russia.

  87. diongiles

    Abbott is a fumbling idiot, but he should not be attacked for not jumping us into a Cold War with Russia before there’s even any forensic investigation of the murder of those on board MH17 well before it exited Ukrainian territory. The Nazis and the Americans have false-flag form going back to prewar times.

    Hermann Göring pioneered false flag operations with the burning down of the Reichstag, immediately blaming the Communists and launching the so-called Notverordnung to extinguish all remaining liberty in Germany, Then it was the faked-up “attack” by “Poles” (prisoners dressed in Polish uniforms) followed immediately by the Blitzkrieg attack on Poland and the Drang nach Osten to seize land for Lebensraum. Get in fast – before any investigations!

    After Germany was defeated the brand passed to America with the Tonkin Gulf Incident followed by a criminal nine-year Blitzkrieg on Vietnam’s people, slaughtering 2 million of them.

    Defeated in Vietnam as their German predecessors were in Europe, the Americans presented a mysterious attack on the Twin Towers, murdering 3000 people, blaming it on their own deadly creation Al Qa’eda and its Afghanistan hosts and achieving a game change in which much of the US constitution has been lost for ever and America placed on a permanent war footing both globally and domestically.

    As a sidebar, led by America and abetted by war criminals Tony Bliar and John Howard, America invented an Iraqi cache of WMDs and invaded secular Iraq on this lie. Iraq has been delivered to barbarians as a result.

    In another false flag operation America’s Islamist clients launched poison gas in Syria followed by an orchestrated howl for a barrage of missiles to punish the Syrian people and dislodge their secular government. War criminals like John McCain of Operation Rolling Thunder infamy demanded haste (schnell schnell schnell reminiscent of their predecessors’ death camps) to forestall any investigation of the source of the gas attack. Fortunately the Russians spiked their guns.

    And now they’re screaming schnell schnell schnell again for increasing blows against Putin, again busting to get in before the murders of those on board Flight MH17 can be investigated. The murders are from fire well inside Ukraine’s borders where a Nazi-infested coup regime is waging violent war on a captive nation whose people have been seeking self-determination. Included in the Nazis’ equipment are batteries of exactly the same missiles that are said to have destroyed MH17, along with teams of experts trained in their use.

    What sent the Americans and the drongoes who believe them into a fury in the first place was the help Russia gave the people of captive Crimea to seek self-determination at the ballot box. How DARE they vote for self-determination! Abbott you’re a wimp for not getting stuck into Putin before any investigation! Schnell schnell schnell!

    There’s a context for assessing these events, a context which 50 million or more people died in the 1940s to establish for the world. Here are a couple of links to the overriding principles of this hard-won context:

    http://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/ccpr.aspx (Note Article 1)
    http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-nurem.htm (Note Principle VI a)

  88. Florence nee Fedup

    Dan, there is one very long shot suggestion. The Ukraine government is the only one to benefitted. No matter who bought the plane down, it was a sure thing that Putin would get the blame.

    It is said, there were Ukraine planes in the area at the time. Some suggestion they were near the Malaysian plane.

    O(ne thing for sure, one can take vey little at face value, that is being reported in the media, or by oar government..

    History teaches us this message when it comes to war.

  89. Florence nee Fedup

    The Governor they buried today, in Tasmania had a sensible message to leave. Yes, he said we need to study our history better, especially that of war. We do not need to know about Simpson and his donkey. What we need to learn, is how we get into wars in the first place.

    Yes, a wise man indeed.

  90. mars08

    RalphG:

    Malcom Fraser was interviewed on ABC Melbourne radio this morning and gave some interesting insights on the situation.

    He said that Russia’s involvement was triggered by the West pushing for the inclusion of the Ukraine in NATO. The Black Sea ports of Crimea are strategically important to Russia (the Black Sea fleet is located there) and that the Ukraine joining NATO would put these assets at risk…

    Huh. Such a coincidence! That’s the main thrust of the articles I linked to above.

    In early February 1990, US Secretary of State James Baker tried to convince Gorbachev that it was in Moscow’s interest to let a united Germany remain in NATO… “Assuming there is no expansion of NATO jurisdiction to the East, not one inch, what would you prefer, a Germany embedded in NATO, or one that can go independently in any direction it chooses.”

    The implication was that Germany might just opt to acquire nuclear weapons, were it not anchored in NATO. Gorbachev answered that he took Baker’s argument seriously, and wasted little time in agreeing to the deal.

    Given the past 200 years of Russian history… Baker’s “no expansion of NATO jurisdiction to the East, not one inch” statement would have carried some influence.

  91. Florence nee Fedup

    Wonder what would have happened, if Abbott has picked up the phone to the leader of the group, that control this region. No one seems to have done that. All demanding that Putin pull them into line. Not sure Putin would have that power.

    Malcom Fraser seems to be the only one talking sense.

  92. RalphG

    mars08,

    I saw your links after submitting my post and yes, it was a timely coincidence.

    There is quite a bit of information on the Russia/Crimea/Ukraine story on WikiLeaks. The cable in this link provides some interesting background on the origins of the current trouble.

    http://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KYIV4489_a.html

    The section headed “Crimea: built-in fertile grounds for volatility” is probably the most relevant.

  93. mars08

    RalphG:

    …imagine that it was the US in that position instead of Russia.

    hehehehe…. just image America’s reaction if an independent Hawaii was to host Chinese forces at Pearl Harbor and Hickam Air Force Base. They’d go apeshit!!!!

    Florence nee Fed:

    Malcom Fraser seems to be the only one talking sense.

    Sadly, in today’s political climate, the government (an probably the Labor opposition) will dismiss Fraser’s comment as the raving of a flag-burning, dope-smoking, freedom-hating Bolshie.

  94. Choppa

    “As we all know – Smoke and Mirrors to distract us from important issues, both international – as mentioned above – and the Budget, Asylum Seekers / Refugees, the Environment etc nationally. He clearly thinks the Australian public are very easily distracted.”

    THe death of 28 Australians in a war is only just slightly a trillion (seems to be the word of the day on theimn amongst the terribly inaccurate reporting) times more important than refugees, the budget and the environment issue was dealt with last week – where were you? The Australian public got their wish and we canned that crap tax.

    Tony Abbott has called Putin. He’s also been the harshist critic of Putin from the get go. Since when has a primeminister directly phone called families when there’s so many deaths? How out of touch can this author be – might be time to read MSM, theres actually a few facts there mate!

  95. Florence nee Fedup

    Cannot see where Abbott reaction is wonderful. For myself, I would rather have cooler head, in a leader in a crisis. One that is not incline to verbal diarrhoea, before gathering all the facts, They say the least said, is the quickest fixed,

  96. mars08

    RalphG:

    mars08,

    I saw your links after submitting my post and yes, it was a timely coincidence.

    How sad is it that this “coincidence” of bringing up pertinent background detail doesn’t happen in the straaayn meeja?

  97. RalphG

    “The Australian public got their wish and we canned that crap tax.”

    Well, a portion of the public got their wish but it’s debatable that it was a majority who wanted it. Murdoch’s Newspoll claimed that 53% wanted it repealed, yet a ReachTel poll showed that 52.5% wanted it to stay.

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/news-corp-newspoll-and-unpopular-abbott,6692

    might be time to read MSM, theres actually a few facts there mate!

    Perhaps the biggest problem with the MSM is the facts that do not get reported.

  98. corvus boreus

    Choppa,
    Facts.
    That is the crux. There are none yet available about apportionment of blame for the shooting down of this aircraft. There are assertions from varying parties and sources. None are pristine.
    Tony Abbott should keep this in mind before he gobs off with threatening accusations through the domestic press, particularly the commercial ones; they’ll print enough incendiary speculation without the opportunity to do it with accuracy in the context of prime-ministerial quotes.
    Domestic trash-talk undermines international diplomacy.
    By the way, thank you for unilaterally excluding me from the ‘Australian public’, since I had no wish to ‘can’ that ‘crap’ tax. It was a tax on crap, and without it rates of crap being crapped out will increase, making the planet we live on an increasingly crappy place. Other shit is starting to happen as a consequence of our crap.
    Biospheric consequence is the main thing I am ‘clever’ about, and, in this, as in their versing on conventions of diplomacy, our government is as dumb as dogshit.
    Maybe they source their information solely from tabloids printed by shonks.

  99. RalphG

    Stone the crows CB, you were a bit hard on the ol’ Choppa.

  100. mars08

    corvus boreus:

    …Facts.
    That is the crux…

    Okay, that’s one of the cruxes. But the other important thing that’s in short supply is CURIOSITY… the desire to look beyond the light-weight, predigested, prepackaged pablum that passes for news in this wide brown skidmark land. The facts aren’t particularly hard to find if you are willing to look for them.

    Or you can just get SEVEN News to spoon-feed you, and then switch over to catch the latest ACA “exclusive”.

  101. Carol Taylor

    Florence @5.39pm, and one that shows far more sympathy for the victims and their families instead of trying to find someone to blame, and in the process trying the hairy-chested thing on the world stage. The Prime Minister “demands” sounds an embarrassment when it’s puny little Australia who has shown next to no interest in the Ukrainian situation previously.

  102. corvus boreus

    RalphG,
    Try to stone a crow it will dodge. Try to rock a raven it will skip. Grab a slingshot, they will fly, then return to maliciously strip your crops.
    This one has not the emotional discipline of Spock (\\//), nor the patience of Master Yoda(what a combo they would make 😉 ).
    I would change, on revision and reflection, three aspects of my previous post.
    I would “slightly” my ‘clever’ claim. This was arrogant.
    I would “seem” my “are” on claiming ‘inept canid faeces’ on ‘this mob’. This assumes knowledge.
    I would “happening” my ‘starting to happen’. That shit is showing.
    As for ‘harsh’, that’s relative. It is in my nature to peck certain objects.

    Mars08,
    Thank you for the ‘pablum’, i eagerly digest my first morsel of ‘jargon de jour’, served with a side of poly-syllabic alliteration.
    That ‘crap’ i can digest!(!!!)
    I would crucify your ‘cruxes’, but i am still insecure after being caught flat-footed on my platypodes (‘platy-pii’, WTF was i thinking?)

  103. Florence nee Fedup

    Carol, Abbott will rue his actions this week, Maybe he will get a lift in the polls, but will be a hollow victory. So will the media dills that are singing his praise.

    The truth is, we are not getting any. Truth that is. Much of what is being said, contradicts itself.

  104. Anne Byam

    Good question Miss Pamela. Have often wondered the same myself. About who sells arms to who … and the results of what that is. I would be willing to bet that some of the 4000 plus American military were killed ( in recent years in Middle Eastern wars ) by armaments sold by American interests to those who would pay the price. Can’t see much difference myself, either.

  105. Anne Byam

    Well said Dan Rowen.

    There is no definitive explanation at this time, ( not that anyone is prepared to openly show ) as to who ACTUALLY a) fired the missile b) had access to the missiles in the first place c) had the knowledge and backing to control the damned things, and d) did so in a SOBER frame of mind. There are at least 3 candidates in this equation, and I hope ( but it is a small hope ) that somehow, some day, someone will own up to whatever one wants to call it – a mistaken identitiy, a deliberate act of terrorism, a deliberate act to bring disrepute on one or more of the allegedly involved parties. This is all POLITICS – pure and simple, I am horrified to have to contemplate. Many countries’ leaders have spoken, some with caution, some with aggression, some with inflammatory remarks, and some with an apparent desire to find the truth. Most ALL however, have spoken with one thought in mind. To make themselves ‘leader of the moment’ ( not the least of which is our own PM !! with foot in mouth for the most part – as usual ). It is a form of global ‘electioneering’ … and on that premise, is utterly disgusting. Making political forward steps from such a ghastly event.

    NOW it would appear, that as of around 8 p.m. Australian EST, the main Ukrainian governing body and it’s military, has decided to rain military blows on the separatists again in Donetsk – fighting IS going on. And right at the time of this ghastly crisis, where almost 300 people were killed outright and left to decompose, because proper corridors of access for impartial persons ( scientists, forensic experts, air crash investigators, and the like ) are not yet permitted. I am NOT – repeat NOT, on the side of the separatists. God alone knows what THEY consist of … but I am wondering now about the political kudos that might be gained by the Ukraine – AND / OR OTHERS – in attacking the separatists at this crucial time, while all hell reigns around the killing fields that are part of the previously more or less, peaceful countryside near Donetsk.

    I don’t live in Donetsk, so cannot truthfully make statements as to the general attitudes and preferences of the inhabitants there. Some are victims, just as the 298 souls on board MH17 were. Others, are perhaps in agreement with the separatists – by decision, or from fear. Who knows. We DO NOT.

    And that is the main thrust of my comment here – WE DO NOT KNOW. … and after the mish-mash of political meetings, and grand-standing by many heads of Government, we most likely will NEVER know. Governments – wherever, tell us less than they ever want us to know.

    My comment does not hold much hope – that we will ever get the TRUTH of the situation. Especially as much of the evidence has allegedly already been removed or compromised. It is a travesty of mammoth proportions, and not helped by many of the so-called leaders of this world, who by inference, bring fear into the hearts of people the world over.

    Damn and blast world politicians and their never-ending quest for ultimate power. …. at the expense ( always ) of their people.

  106. randalstella

    One last effort.
    This is one of the sillier articles on this site. It plays the game of hyperbole, heedless of the risks involved, and with no chance of winning. The author then tries to claim that he might have influenced Abbott to ring Putin.
    How about asking if the Liberal obstructionists are grateful for the temporary place on the Security Council, gained by Kevin Rudd’s hard work?

  107. mars08

    Unfortunately the Abbott government and its ministers are nothing more than a compliment to mediocrity and intellectual barrenness….

    True enough. And come next election, the electorate will probably vote for a slightly less mediocre, amoral and intellectually barren Labor government.

  108. Möbius Ecko

    My, they’re rolling them all out over MH17.

    They’re utterly desperate in light of continuing polling trend, and most likely internal polls as well, showing Abbott is on the nose with the electorate and the Libs will lose.

    We have seen it with every disaster or potential disaster over the last six months where they attempt to take the limelight at all costs and paint themselves as indispensable to Australia’s security and well being. At times it has seemed to me Abbott has been praying for a significant disaster or terrorist attack to be involved in to boost has low popularity.

  109. mars08

    …At times it has seemed to me Abbott has been praying for a significant disaster or terrorist attack to be involved in to boost has low popularity.

    Sooo, you have doubts? Really??????

  110. Dan Rowden

    “Operation Bring Them Home”, huh? I guess giving the task a name with military overtones was to be expected. Tedious and predicable people, these conservatives …

  111. corvus boreus

    Nice job by Colon Burner, Dan R. Both the onsite report and the ‘response’ to concerns(no apologies there!).
    “There’s bits all over the place. Here, look at this pink drink bottle. I am so overcome by the tragedy I just want to handle victims’ possessions/items of forensic evidence.’
    ‘Wot, I dropped it, didn’t I?’
    The excuse and the footage do not tally.
    Colin Brazier is a pathetic, ghoulish, lying turd who cannot say “I am sorry, I was an idiotic, indecent arsehole”, instead whinging about his own situation whilst slagging off others for being offended.
    He even misquotes himself, and rates “we(?) shouldn’t be doing this, I suppose, really” as an apology.
    He represents Murdoch flawlessly.

  112. mars08

    “…Tony Abbott has suggested he would like to see a multinational force deployed to the Ukraine, including Australians, to secure the crash site of downed Malaysian Airlines’ flight MH17.

    Mr Abbott’s comments suggested came as he warned of a potential cover-up blocking the investigation and lashed “evidence tampering on an industrial scale”

    Oh go away. Just go away.

  113. Anne Byam

    I am not sure who I am responding to here !!! AIM Network has had problems these past few days – crashed big time yesterday.

    ANYHOW … I don’t think anybody should ‘can’ Colin Brazier for doing something ‘human’ …. Sure, it was an error, probably a big one. But I would like to know which of you / us would be able to handle seeing these atrocious sights, and not lose it – even for a second. The reporter is – after all – a human being, and is NOT infallible. I can imagine his horror, his autonomous or automatic reaction. I can only imagine his mind at the time. Seasoned reporter or not – he is human, and had a human response – the subconscious need to handle something real, in this horror … to MAKE it real – and to make some sense of it …. because he could scarcely believe what he was viewing. Many people would have reacted in exactly the same way.

    Having said that however, I have no idea how this particular subject got onto this thread. Except that AIM had a lot of problems, and it seems subjects might have gone all over the place ?? I have responded to this from a feed to my home address inbox !!

    And Corvus …. you are showing the signs of a raven picking at little bits and pieces to feed itself. I think your admonishment of Colin Brazier was harsh, unbending, intolerant and not at all necessary. I am surprised at you !! Honestly thought you had more sense.

  114. Anne Byam

    I am not sure who or what I am responding to here. Because AIM Network crashed big time yesterday. Things seem to be all over the place at this time.

    I am very surprised at you Corvus. You seem to be like a small raven picking at little bits and pieces to keep yourself alive. Your comments about Colin Brazier are harsh, unbending, crude and totally NOT necessary. Colin Brazier is a human being – as well as a reporter. He has witnessed some atrocious situations in this instance, and it is understandable that he might put his hands on an item, pick it up – replace it – just to make it real to him, because of the total unreality that he was VIEWING. Brazier, being human, is not infallible and he CAN make mistakes. Please don’t tell me you haven’t made mistakes yourself – throughout your life ?????? Of course you have, as have I.

    I admire the reporters and anchor-persons who go out into the field – irrespective of whether it is peace time or war time. They put their lives on the line to bring us the news in war zones. Give him a break. And when you are perfect yourself, you can have a genuine go at them all. THAT will never happen, however.

    I have responded to this post from the notifications I received in my home address Inbox. I am not at all sure how this subject got onto this thread in the first place, except that AIM Network seemed to have a miriad of problems yesterday, and probably still have.

    Clam up people and give this reporter some support … mainly for what he has to endure in witnessing this horror.

  115. Roswell

    So they have an Operation Bring Them Home running concurrently with an Operation Send Them Home. Bizarre coincidence.

  116. corvus boreus

    Anne Byam,
    Yes, I have made many mistakes, particularly in abnormal circumstances. Apologies were often required.
    My disgust was with Mr Brazier’s subsequent written response, which was self-justifying sophistry without reflection or remorse.
    He avoided any true apology for an essentially unacceptable act. This reflects badly on him.
    I accept that the language i expressed my feelings in was crude. This may reflect badly on me, but i am, in the end, just a small bird pecking for subsistence.

  117. corvus boreus

    Ps, Anne, he was also inaccurate or dishonest in the recount of his own dialogue. I do not admire that in journalism.

  118. Kaye Lee

    Anne,

    We had problems because we exceeded the memory space allocated us by WordPress. Michael worked feverishly to fix the problem which he appears to have done. I would like to express my admiration and appreciation for the countless hours that Michael and Carol spend providing us with, maintaining, and paying for this site.

  119. Florence nee Fedup

    It Appears the site has become too successful, leading to over loading the system. Keep up the good work, Michael and Carol.

  120. Florence nee Fedup

    Looks like Tony has not been invited to the main table in the Ukraine. Seems to be left on the sidelines.

  121. Anne Byam

    to Kaye Lee …. thanks to all who administer this site. To you, Michael and Carol who spend many hours bringing us the opportunity to express our opinions, angst or otherwise, at the current situation in our country. Thank you.

  122. Anne Byam

    Dear Corvus …. Colin Brazier HAS apologised for his momentary lapse in judgement and action. ” The Sky News journalist who rummaged through a child’s suitcase at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has apologised, acknowledging he made a “serious error of judgment”. ”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/sky-news-journalist-colin-brazier-apologises-for-rummaging-through-belongings-of-mh17-victims-20140723-zvwwx.html#ixzz38Hm8oT7I

    You can click on the link if you like. Tells the story – and he HAS apologised. And, as I suspected, he was overcome by the situation he was viewing. That’s a natural, normal and human reaction to such circumstances. I stand my ground on this, and there most likely need be no more said.

  123. corvus boreus

    Anne,
    Your link offers Michael Koziol’s interpretation of the response by Colin Brazier. It suffers secondary distortion.
    Colin’s own words were “if there were someone to apologise to I would”,”my bosses issued an apology” and “I thought aloud ‘we shouldn’t be doing this, it’s a mistake(misquotation of self)’; an instant apology”.
    He acknowledged “I got things wrong”, “I made a serious error in judgement” and “I realised I was crossing a line”.
    He delegated apology, queried it’s practicality and interpretively projected one into acknowledgement of wrongdoings.
    These, for me do not count as an apology. If Colin Brazier has apologised for his conduct, it was not in the Guardian piece.
    Mr Brazier, by his resume, has a long and distinguished press career, but i suspect his internal compass may have been distorted through his work for an unethical organisation.
    Mr Koziol shows the repetition of inaccuracies and projection of intent that diminishes the profession of journalism. He parroted the “it’s a mistake ” line non-critically, reinforcing an inaccuracy. This, on top of the ghoulish sensationalism often employed, is one of my major gripes with media conduct, they often amplify their own errors.
    It is why, often, the further you get from the primary source, the further you get from the truth.
    For myself; Corvus can be a pedantic, judgmental shit. He often has to be to find kernels in cowpats. Sometimes he pecks too harshly, and caws cacophonously and over-reactively.
    I was wrong in the harshness of the terms i directed towards Colin Brazier, particularly with regard to the name calling. I apologise for any offense i caused.

  124. Anne Byam

    Your posts are always good to read Corvus, whether I agree with them or not. ” Finding kernels in cowpats ” … can become tedious, not to mention ” ewww yuck ” but you seem to have some research down to a fine art. I must ask, what constitutes an apology – from your point of view. You have apologised to me ( that was not necessary although appreciated ) … I would have thought the humbling of himself with “I got things wrong” “I made a serious error in judgement” etc. etc. was a form of apology. The words “I’m sorry” doesn’t always cut it. Brazier has gone further than a simple apology. Perhaps he was covering his tracks, but I doubt it. If he’d wanted to exonerate himself from all blame, he’d have kept his mouth shut altogether after the witnessed event, and worn the consequences. He is after all, an employee – of the media ( which incidentally I tend to distrust most of the time ) …. I also think that his ‘internal compass’ would be well and truly challenged, when he has to witness some of the events he covers – as an on the spot reporter. Wouldn’t want his job for all the tea in China.

  125. Kaye Lee

    Anne,

    Your comments are well-reasoned, eloquently expressed, and greatly appreciated, but I must agree with corvus here. I don’t actually care about the apology – to do what he did in the first place was an act of pure sensationalism and I cannot accept the ‘internal compass’ excuse when I think of what nurses and paramedics and rescue workers deal with every day. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. If you do not understand how to treat a crime scene, don’t go there. I know what he witnessed must have been horrific but to rifle through people’s belongings should be off any normal person’s radar.

  126. Anne Byam

    Kaye – to a degree I agree with you. That might sound strange, but you argue a good few points.

    Ah – sensationalism … the media is RIFE with it – no matter where we look. AND it has it’s IMPACT on viewers / readers / internet users. If one is fed a daily diet of horror, via the media, one becomes to a degree ‘desensitised’ to it all. As for the true heroes … the nurses, doctors, ambo’s, police, SES, and other organisations that deal with fractured bodies, search and rescue … my heart goes out to them. They do a superb job, under circumstances that we ( the ordinary bod ) can scarcely believe.

    I do agree with your comment ” If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.” Maybe it’s time for Brazier to take a long break from his reporting activities, in order to re-assess his situation, and the job that is demanded of him. I am not in his corner, to any great degree. I just see the human aspect here … that a reporter has finally hit the end of his ability to deal rationally with a situation he is reporting on. Frankly, I admire these guys and girls who put themselves in the way of danger, to bring us news ( do we WANT that news – ??? ) … and there IS a limit to human capabilities. That’s MAINLY what I was trying to point out. Thank you for your comments … you are a damned good writer.

  127. Garth

    Give me strength … Judith Ireland from Fairfax is reporting how worn and haggard Tony looks after 6 days dealing with the MH17 crisis. FFS … this is the job he wanted and i’d hazard a guess this is exactly the type of situation he prayed for. I have absolutely no sympathy … NONE, for him for missing a few winks sleep. Stop grandstanding before the press and do what your feckin’ job entails !!!

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/eyes-betray-sombre-duty-as-tony-abbott-focuses-energies-on-mh17-tragedy-20140724-3chh6.html

  128. Lee

    “to do what he did in the first place was an act of pure sensationalism and I cannot accept the ‘internal compass’ excuse when I think of what nurses and paramedics and rescue workers deal with every day. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. If you do not understand how to treat a crime scene, don’t go there. I know what he witnessed must have been horrific but to rifle through people’s belongings should be off any normal person’s radar.”

    Totally agree Kaye. I used to be a paramedic many years ago. The only time I went through someone’s possessions was when I needed to identify them and they couldn’t speak for themselves. To do so at any other time is disrespectful. Any newspaper/tv station with any moral integrity would ensure their staff know not to interfere with a crime scene. But then I doubt if any have moral integrity. They’re all about sensationalism. I’ve been out at night picking up patients off the road and some tv crew has a bright light shining in my face so they can film the proceedings. They don’t care that we can’t see to treat the patient’s life threatening injuries. They just want their story.

  129. Anne Byam

    Ummm … GARTH … I think you have the wrong thread here. Or something has gone amiss with postings ? BUT having read what you have to say, I have to agree – Abbott elected to stand for the leadership … he SHOULD cop all that it entails, as they all must. There are many jobs that result in lost nights’ sleep, and a look of haggard reluctance. [ btw, have you noticed how grey the hair of the U.S. President Obama has become, in his 2 plus 2 ( 3 at the moment ) years of tenure? ] Politics leaves it’s mark on everybody … even on the most horrid of leaders. Leave it up to you all, to figure out who is what when it comes to being abominable leaders of a country, especially when it comes to domestic and intra-national considerations. hmmm. !!!

  130. Anne Byam

    @ Lee. I can only agree with you about sensationalism in the media today. Leaving what Brazier did alone for a moment … ( he did the wrong thing, in a wrong place at the wrong time ) … I can understand your chagrin, as you were a paramedic and witnessed first hand the intrusive nature of ‘reporting on the spot’. I mostly distrust the media, because of their unspeakable intrusiveness.

    My daughter’s best friend was killed in a road accident. She was approx. 1/4 of a mile in front of my daughters’ vehicle, when it happened – at an intersection. My daughter ( who was traumatised beyond belief ) got out of her car to witness her dying friend on the road and tried to get to her. What my daughter ALSO encountered was some rabble from a TV network pushing in to get ‘the best shots’ of the disaster and ‘comments’ from my daughter. She completely lost it, and attacked that bloody reporter with fists flying. It was only an off-duty ambulance attendant, who put a gentle but very strong hold on her, to stop her from half killing the bastards. And I believe she’d have tried to do just that – as she was so grief stricken, shocked and outraged . She was beyond over-wrought at the intrusion of the network reporters who were there because of the old media adage – “if it bleeds, it leads”. The media are largely, these days, a disgrace.

    As for Brazier … as I have said in a more recent post – perhaps it is time he took a break from reporting, and had a good look at his career. I admire those that put themselves in harms’ way to bring us news, but there IS a limit. Some reporters reach those limits – others, however, go for the throat in anything they report – and don’t give a damn who it hurts, or offends. I could name names, but — Enough said for the time being.

  131. Garth

    Anne, thanks for your reply. I wasn’t on the wrong thread. The story was about Tony’s response (or lack thereof) to the downing of MH17. I was simply commenting on a story in Fairfax that spoke of his physical response to same. While I can appreciate the demands such a job as PM puts on a person, I object to the portrayal in the MSM of ‘look at poor Tony, he’s doing it so hard’. My main point was that I would bet he’s been hoping for such an event (although I stop short of thinking anyone would be happy with the loss of life) so he can beat his chest and show what a big man he is.

  132. Terry2

    The Dutch are doing a magnificent and dignified job in recovering, identifying and arranging for repatriation of the bodies of the deceased passengers and crew. The Netherlands lost 193 of their citizens and perhaps if Mr Abbott was to give more support and assistance to the Dutch authorities his time would be better spent than some of the hairy chested statements he has been making recently.

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/24/article-2704010-1FF2E3F900000578-758_964x622.jpg

  133. Anne Byam

    Garth … my apologies. Along with yourself, I object too, to the whinge about ‘poor Tony – doing it so hard’. Hard my foot – he is revelling in his ( most likely short lived ) renown of being a major player in the aftermath of the MH17 disaster – standing up to this and that about it all. His diplomatic foot in mouth bumblings in recent months – on many occasions, have been a total embarrassment. In a short while he – globally – will be ” yesterday’s news ” PROVIDED he doesn’t bluster his way into some other situation in the world – where he has no right to be, or say anything about.

    And Terry2 …. I couldn’t agree more. The Dutch indeed have shown the world what dignity and priorities are. They are to be greatly applauded for their remarkable efforts. And it would behove Abbott to be actively involved in THAT himself, out of sheer respect. Julie Bishop had to sink or swim with this one, and she’s done a reasonably good job – considering she was so far out of her depth in the job of Foreign Minister to begin with.

  134. ruby

    “The Australian Independent Media Network” =LOL – Now carry on with your hate fest with the usual lack of facts!!

  135. Möbius Ecko

    OK ruby can you please point out where any of the facts are lacking and they will be gladly corrected.

    In the meantime you do know the meaning of independent media?

  136. Kaye Lee

    I very much doubt that ruby will hang around to discuss facts ME. And I am very tired of explaining what “independent” means. Wouldn’t it be interesting if one, just one, of the multitude of people who complain we aren’t independent actually wrote an article for us to publish. But Abbott supporters don’t like discussing facts or they wouldn’t be Abbott supporters.

  137. Florence nee Fedup

    Name does not seem familiar. Content does.

    Anne, Dutch still making more sense than our Tony this month. Still waiting for the investigations to be completed, before laying blame.

  138. John Fraser

    <

    @Kaye Lee

    I continually ask commenters to sing the praises of newman, Abbott, Hockey, Turnbull, Robb etc.

    Bishop the younger got sung about last week …. apparently she enjoyed getting the crap kicked out of her thats why she kept secret that the Abbott was in "talks" about medical aid to Ebola patients.

    A very good read here :

    https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/the-abbott-government-aspen-medical-connection,7098

    on the subject of that medical assistance.

  139. John Fraser

    <

    @Kaye Lee Apologies … i'll catch up.

  140. John Fraser

    <

    @Kaye Lee

    This is interesting in a Joe Hockey way :

    "Donations to Waubra have helped fund legal challenges against wind farm developments.

    Former health minister Michael Wooldridge is a director of Waubra, and former MP Alby Schultz is its patron."

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/joe-hockey-warns-clean-energy-and-utterly-offensive-windfarms-are-in-his-budget-crosshairs-20140502-37msv.html

    Great Article, great research Kaye Lee.

    https://theaimn.com/joining-dots/

  141. LukKr

    Is there anyone on here with an alternative view to yours that you do not consider a kremtroll? Seriously, you are getting very shrill. Peter Hitchens quote “those who oppose the conflict are falsely accused of being apologists of the many undoubtedly bad features of the Putin government.”

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