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Post-Coal Theming and Preventative Unemployment

The Anti-Adani protest has generated divisive anti-worker rhetoric. Preventative unemployment should be a key focus towards a post-coal world. This article discusses the importance of themes in the narrative towards a post-coal world and explores the approach to preventative unemployment policy.

Say No To Adani Is Just the Beginning

The anti-Adani movement is growing. It has progressed from a place of prominence on social media to a place of prominence in main stream media.

I have spent countless hours trying to engage with the Anti-Adani movement. I have persisted for a long period to bring the topic of jobs to the centre of the discussion. Placing the worker at the centre of the framework is crucial, as we move towards a post-coal world.

This is crucial because the Anti-Adani movement’s aim to shut down the Adani mine is just the beginning. It is not the end. A move towards alternative energy and away from coal is evident. Protests against existing mines are just a matter of time. The industrial landscape will change forever.

However, any discussion regarding jobs is dismissed and not taken seriously.

Screaming to Shut Down Jobs

Every Adani protester is protesting to shut down jobs and is part of a wider movement which will build and push to shut down even more heavy industry.

The wider narrative in the Anti-Adani movement, when the point of jobs is raised, makes this issue much bigger than Adani by default.

The Theming of Rebuttals

I have engaged almost every day in the Adani debate online, across various platforms for at least a year. In my experience, the rebuttals towards any argument put forward regarding jobs fall into a number of themes. The post-coal world is the framework for these themes, not just Adani per se.

Divisive 

This rebuttal insists that only Great Barrier Reef workers hold any importance and these workers are more important than Coal Workers.

Dehumanising

This rebuttal dehumanises coal workers as a lower status of human. Job creation for this group is not considered. There is the assumption that these workers work in a dead industry and it is up to them to get out. Some insist it is up to the current coal mine owners to transition employees out now. Protestors see coal as an ugly and dirty industry. Therefore, stigmatisation of coal workers occurs.

Externalising Blame to the Coal Worker

This rebuttal is related to the above and shifts the blame of climate change to the actual worker. ie Coal workers are ruining the planet.

The Assumption of Automatic Transition

Coal workers will all automatically transition to a renewables job and this is the best fit for ex-coal workers is the assumption.

The Assumption of Geographical Transition

The assumption is that renewable energy companies will hire the ex-coal workforce. The other assumption is the same location will house the new industry. See above.

The Dismissal of Impact

This rebuttal rejects that coal mining has any significant contribution to the Australian economy and renewables will generate much more revenue and jobs than coal. Also, local economies will remain unchanged. This rebuttal also assumes that small business or the allocation of public services funding and infrastructure funding will not change.

Sacrificial Lamb

This rebuttal insists that we must sacrifice all coal jobs for the greater good; because if we don’t then there will be no world and no jobs.

Personally Directed Themes

When I raised jobs as an issue, the following themes occurred.

Personal investment – The major theme is ‘pro-coal‘. It is my observation that participants in this movement are unable to differentiate between pro-jobs and pro-coal.

Another theme is “Queensland Bias” as it is my home state.

Guilt – The other major theme is guilt. This is usually a counter-argument after jobs are raised. For example, accusations relating to; not caring about the Great Barrier Reef, GBR workers, First Nations people and land rights and not caring about Farmers.

From my perspective, it is important to include the personally directed themes, as these themes are quite prevalent. In addition, I would argue that these types of retaliations are an active part of a phenomenon which dismisses the worker by delegitimising the concern of the pro-jobs advocate.

Political Difficulty

This poses problems for any politician who tries argue the point for jobs. Not just at this moment regarding Adani, but as this movement progresses towards the insistence of more closures of heavy industry. On Qanda, the panel and audience ultimately dismissed Senator Canavan when he raised the issue of high unemployment for local areas near the mine.

Political Theming

The theme around this post coal transition within politics is largely devoid of any conversation around the transition of jobs and skills. The political themes are:

Climate Change Targets – This theme is central to reducing carbon emissions.

Alternative Energy – This theme is central to exploring the use of alternative energy, rather than the importance of transition of jobs within this shift.

Renewables the Best Fit – Renewables as the best fit for coal workers is assumed. Attracting other industry is not discussed. The redistribution of the public sector is also not discussed.

The Importance of Themes for Transition

I have highlighted these themes, as I see them, as I believe they play a central part ensuring the recognition of the worker occurs. 

Through the attempt to understand the current phenomenon using theming, we can then identify the actors within the phenomenon and what impact the phenomenon has as it develops. We can use this insight to shape society.

The worker will remain in the background unless we reflect upon these themes. Therefore, the worker will be an accidental casualty of the movement towards a post coal world.

In addition, these themes contribute to the way we insist that political parties approach a transition. For example, the emphasis placed on skills transition and profession transition.

Most importantly, whether political parties implement curative or preventative unemployment strategies to address unemployment.

Preventative and Curative Unemployment Policy

Policy development towards unemployment takes two forms, preventative and curative. Essentially, preventative policy enables measures to prevent unemployment. Curative policy development is reactionary and punitive and seeks to address the consequences of unemployment.

On the Road to Somewhere

It is essential that political parties develop a solid transition plan based on skills and jobs. However, there is not enough detail in the current Labor and Greens transition plans. A focus on energy rather than jobs is evident. I have been unable to source a transition plan by the Liberal National Coalition Government.

The Greens’ transition plan discusses the rehabilitation of mines as the main alternative job for ex-coal workers.

Labor’s transition plan takes a more holistic approach. However, I would argue that some points such as redeployment and relocation do not focus on community.

A detailed transition plan consisting of where the new industry will be developed, a jobs and skills forecast, including projected employment types, such as ongoing and casual should be developed. In addition, an examination of the reconfiguration of new industry and public services should occur.

The road to where we are heading, how we will get there and what happens when we get there is now urgent.

Preventative Unemployment Strategies

The Shorten Labor Government does discuss preventative unemployment strategies as part of their transition plan. However, this is more implicit, rather than explicit. We urgently need a strong voice pushing a detailed jobs narrative.

Increase in Demand Side Employment 

As the transition away from coal jobs occurs, an increase in the demand for labour is essential. A forecast of job losses in coal areas should enable political parties to develop a blue print for planning.

Business incentives to encourage businesses to relocate and set up in local areas could be advantageous. In addition, job creation through Government intervention would be beneficial.

National Skills and Career Development Strategy

Often skills development is discussed from a curative point of view of ‘getting the unemployed skilled for work’. However, within a preventative strategy, the addition of career development is an essential addition. The development of new skills to supply labour is essential as the transition away from coal assumes an increase in unemployment. This shift is structural and understood. Therefore, the worker can complete career development programs during their employment with a coal based employer.

A focus on preventative unemployment would see a national strategy employed where employers are subsidised to release existing labour for new skills development training.

Funding of Universities to develop appropriate courses and recruit staff ahead of time is also vital.

Reconfiguration of the Labor Market

A micro approach to local economies should examine the requirements to reconfigure the labour market within Australia. Within a preventative strategy as alternatives or additions to renewable jobs and how this should be configured should be examined. For example, in conjunction with renewable jobs, local government areas may be identified as specific hubs. Such as telecommunications hubs, community sector hubs, aged care hubs.

A reconfiguration, redistribution and a reassessment of public sector need and staffing establishments required to adequately service the population should also be considered. Regional unemployment figures, rather than national unemployment figures, should be a measure of success.

A Strong Supply Side Voice in a Pluralistic Framework

The changes required towards a post coal world, including an increase in labour demand, a change of career and wages for many workers and a loss of increment/experience level is perceived.

The suppression of voice of the supply side of labour is a dangerous pressure from Liberal National Governments. They may argue that secure employment and strong labour regulations may reduce the desire for employers to employ more entrants into the new industry. They may argue that new industry in a new market is volatile and wages should be kept as low as possible and work as flexible as possible to enable growth.

However, a preventative framework should be a pluralistic framework. Therefore, the Government, employers and unions should work together to set the standards and improve worker security in new industries and in transitioning local economies.

From Punitive to Preventative Unemployment

Punitive measures underpin curative unemployment strategies. These have become increasingly harsh and prevalent since the 1990’s. Curative policies focus on the unemployed rather than the labour market. Therefore the motivations of the unemployed are questioned (and punished) rather than a recognition that there is not enough demand for labour in the market.

This transitional shift to a post coal world could also transition the job search framework. In a preventative system creating labour demand to match the under-utilised supply would be the focus. A preventative unemployment strategy would see a Government motivated to intervene to create jobs, invest in skills and career development.

In a curative system, the underlying assumption is punitive. The jobless are blamed for their own unemployment. This is usually a lack of motivation and intrinsic propensity to learn or work. ‘Curing’ the causes of lack of motivation or desire to work are the strategies employed. Currently, these are financial penalties and working as free labour for welfare benefits.

In a preventative system creating labour demand to match the under-utilised supply would be the focus. A preventative unemployment strategy would see a Government motivated to intervene to create jobs. Also, invest in skills and career development of new and transitioning workers and incentivize business.

The Worker Front and Centre

A consideration of the themes identified in the narrative in the shift towards a post coal society is critical to transition towards a narrative which places the worker front and centre in the climate change framework.

We need a detailed transition plan urgently. The implementation of preventative unemployment strategies will ensure a smooth transition to a post-coal world.


240 comments

  1. Harquebus

    Trish
    I keep telling you; jobs are destroying our environment.
    High unemployment is required and is coming anyway so, it would be best to prepare for it rather than trying to avoid it. Growth has met its physical limits and economic contraction will soon begin.
    Our future is going to be nothing like the past. Quotas, rations and restricted services are much more likely.
    Get ready.

    “Humans have a virtually unlimited capacity for self-delusion, even when self-preservation is at stake.”
    “The scariest example is the simplistic, growth-oriented, market-based economic thinking that is all but running the world today. Prevailing neoliberal economic models make no useful reference to the dynamics of the ecosystems or social systems with which the economy interacts in the real world.”
    “we’ve already shot past several important planetary boundaries.”
    “Propelled by neoliberal economic thinking and fossil fuels, techno-industrial society consumed more energy and resources during the most recent doubling (the past 35 years or so) than in all previous history.”
    “Ignoring overshoot is dangerously stupid — we are financing growth, in part, by irreversibly liquidating natural resources essential to our own long-term survival.”
    “Like a mind-altering drug, the compound myth of perpetual growth and continuous technological progress obscures reality.”
    “Our growth-based, winner-takes-all economy has become egregiously unjust as well as ecologically precarious. Perversely, the world community prescribes still greater material growth as the only feasible solution!”
    https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2017/07/17/Coming-Global-Collapse/

  2. Phil

    Trish, I applaud your persistence and concern for the existing work force in the transition from coal. I think the Libs and Nats understand the transitional employment issue far better than they would have us believe. Their strategy is to stall, deny, obfuscate and muddy the debate for as long as possible. The thought of doing anything to support working people is repugnant to the LNP – they do punishment not support.

    And which union is central to the lives of the coal workforce? CFMEU – to the LNP the most hated and reviled of workers representation.

    No mention of Unions in your article? Shouldn’t they have a role to play?

  3. Barry Thompson.

    Fa, try just not reading her articles.

  4. Terry2

    On Q&A on Monday Canavan said that the Adani mine would directly provide 16000 permanent jobs. Another panel member said that it was more like 1500 permanent jobs.

    Anybody know who is right ?

  5. Freethinker

    In many points I agree with Harquebus, and IMHO the only way to avoid the path described by him is by the people to change their lifestyle and the economists/politicians to change the way that they see macroeconomics. Growth have reached a limit now is the time to concentrate in development.
    Regarding Trish frustration about the way that the “Stop Adani” movement respond to her concerns about jobs, IMO and based on present and past movements to stop logging, many activist believe that workers and jobs seekers should not be involved in jobs where the activities affect the environment or working with unethical companies.
    In many cases the workers on this companies or industries do not care less about climate change or do not believe that it is happens.
    I personally never worked or look for jobs in that type of activities or companies with unethical behavior.

  6. Helen Bates

    Trish thanks for standing up for working families.Climate change is happening but people need to work and survive as well.The scare mongers all would have us believing the end is on us now but going by past predictions we have time
    “Within a few years winter snowfall will become a very rare and exciting event. … Children just aren’t going to know what snow is.”
    David Viner, Climatic Research Unit, University of East Anglia, 20 March 2000

    February 1993, Thomas E. Lovejoy, Smithsonian Institution: “Most of the great environmental struggles will be either won or lost in the 1990s and by the next century it will be too late.”

    2005, Andrew Simms, policy director of the New Economics Foundation: “Scholars are predicting that 50 million people worldwide will be displaced by 2010 because of rising sea levels, desertification, dried up aquifers, weather-induced flooding and other serious environmental changes.”

  7. Barry Thompson.

    Fa,
    As I understand it, don’t you have to request alerts ? If you cannot specify which alerts you are happy to receive, then I guess you are stuck with those you do not want. Sorry, I do not have the IT expertise to help.

  8. Kaye Lee

    “Queensland has seen a jobs boom in other industries and a resulting drop in the unemployment rate, despite the recent decline in coal investment and the industry cutting its workforce by over 35 percent. This is a practical demonstration of the fact that jobs and growth come from a broader range of industries, in particular, health, education and services,” Oquist said.

    Facts about coal and jobs in Queensland:

    Coal mining now employs less than 1 percent of people who work in Queensland.
    Coal mining currently employs around 20,000 people in Queensland. This has fallen from a highpoint of 30,000 in 2013. There are 2.36 million people in work in Queensland.
    Nationally, coal mining is projected to cut its workforce by 21 percent by November 2020, according to Commonwealth Department of Employment projections.
    In Queensland, all parts of mining (coal, as well as gas and other resources) are projected to fall by 7,400 jobs to 2020.

    http://www.tai.org.au/content/facts-jobs-coal-and-queensland

    While the resources sector has cut 22,000 jobs over the past two years, four other industries each created more jobs than were lost in the resource sector over that period: health, education, professional services and accommodation and food services, which is closely related to tourism.

    Commonwealth Government employment projections suggest that employment growth for the remainder of the decade will come overwhelmingly from the services sector.

  9. Terry2

    fa

    I keep on getting your new comment and I have a little onscreen X which allows me to delete unwanted emails or dumb comments : you may have a similar function on your PC !

  10. nurses1968

    Kaye Lee,
    “Coal mining currently employs around 20,000 people in Queensland”
    So what are you saying damn the 20,000 mining families and all those in spin off industries?
    My reading is Trish just want consideration for workers as an EQUAL consideration, not one or the other

  11. Freethinker

    fa, your post is a bit offensive, if you do not like or agree with the views of an author or comments by any blogger just not read them, as simple as that.

  12. Johno

    Terry2 ..1460 jobs was what I heard.

  13. nurses1968

    Freethinker agree with your advice to fa

  14. townsvilleblog

    Trish, my argument is in the numbers Adani offer approximately 1,500 jobs and the end result of the production will see the death of the Great Barrier Reef and the loss of 67,000 tourism jobs via climate change. We also now have an oil company trying to get permission from the federal govt to drill for oil south of the Great Australian Bite, this is not BP, but a new player from Norway with a terrible environmental record. If Adani and this oil drilling go ahead there is the potential for the complete loss of Australia’s tourist industry as the resulting oil slick would be carried with the tide as far up as Perth in WA and the south NSW coast, Tasmania would also be affected. These projects may provide jobs, but at what cost?

    Surely some public enterprise such as establishing an electric car industry to compete with Tesla should be considered by a government with 9.3% unemployment (Roy Morgan Research) and a further 1.1 million people underemployed.

  15. Kaye Lee

    nurses,

    I said nothing of the sort. No-one is advocating closing existing mines or coal-fired power stations – just not opening new ones. The transition is inescapable so talking about Adani is a waste of time. As for the jobs it might create, their own expert conceded it would be at the expense of other jobs whether they be in agriculture, manufacturing, or existing coal mining operations in the Hunter and elsewhere.

    No-one has a job with Adani yet except for a few legal and PR people so no-one loses a job if Adani doesn’t go ahead. The promise of future employment is very tenuous as Adani themselves said they wanted to make the mine automated from pit to port.

    Some suggestions for real jobs is what we need.

    Mine rehabilitation is one, as Trish pointed out.
    Renewable energy
    Infrastructure construction
    Health
    Education
    Food and accommodation
    Retail
    Construction of affordable housing
    Agriculture
    Niche manufacturing
    Tourism
    Transport
    Park rangers
    Arts and recreation
    Natural disaster mitigation works

  16. Freethinker

    fa, you need help, go easy on the caffeine.

  17. Johno

    Post-coal DREAMING is what we need, aboriginal style. We are living so beyond sustainable now it’s a joke. Canavan came up with the same old rhetoric in Q&A. Nothing new there, lets just keep crapping in our nest.

  18. nurses1968

    It was no “tag team” attack as I simply agreed with Freethinker.
    Freethinker and I have agreed and disagreed on many issues so you are jumping to conclusions there
    It seems to me you set out with one purpose and one purpose only and that was to attack the Author. {not a word about the article }
    I think you are the perfect representative example of the division and devisiveness and total stubbornness and blinkered view that Trish has highlighted over several articles
    As Freethinker said, If you don’t like the article, skip it. I do.
    If you don’t want to be bothered with the comments of some, don’t read them
    I don’t. thats why I skipped yours.
    Not difficult

  19. Trish Corry

    Just ignore her. I’ll talk to Michael about her. She is a Greens supporter / voter who had a mutual friend with me on Facebook. We had an argument about Labor/Greens something or other and now she has started this nonsense.

  20. Trish Corry

    If you think this article is about the continuation of coal, I suggest you have not read the article. The entire second half is about how to transition to post coal jobs.

  21. Harquebus

    If one does not know what others are thinking and saying, how can one argue against them?

  22. Freethinker

    Well fa, in the way that you are behaving shows that you do not think clear and do not how to debate or change of opinions with other bloggers.
    I do not know for how long you have been reading posts in this site, but if you have been reading them you will know by now that I am a passionate carer for the environment and that I have mentioned here and in other sites that I was active with the Greens cause in Tasmania since 1975.
    If you read my first post in this thread you will see what I think about jobs that are unethical or can damage the environment.
    That is the reason why I suggested that you need help or go easy with the caffeine.
    Just read, think and then write, for sure your English it is better than mine.

  23. Trish Corry

    I have placed fa’s comments in moderation. I do not normally do this, but I have clear evidence that this person is being vindictive on purpose. Some people see me on here and leave abuse in my Facebook inbox. This one disagrees with me on Facebook and pretends to be a disgruntled reader. Other moderators, please leave these comments in moderation. Thank you. Carry on.

  24. Freethinker

    I hope that the moderators remove my last posts, because as it is looks like a reply to Trish.

  25. Johno

    Trish
    The Worker Front and Centre
    A consideration of the themes identified in the narrative in the shift towards a post coal society is critical to transition towards a narrative which places the worker front and centre in the climate change framework.

    My question to this is…. Why aren’t we all front and centre in the climate change framework because the way I see it everyone will be affected.

  26. James

    If you got rid of coal fired power plants tomorrow, you would still be mining coal. Obviously not at the same levels as today, but still in some type of capacity as different grades of coal have different usage.

  27. diannaart

    Those responsible for doing the very least to help workers in defunct industries are:

    The owner/employer – who is well aware of when a business will stop production.

    State and Federal governments – who claim to be about creating jobs without providing the means, TAFE programs have been slashed and university degrees too expensive for those retraining in mid-life, so-called Newstart not at all liveable.

    Climate warming deniers – who aid the above mentioned through vested interests, lobbying and deliberate casting of obfuscation into the mix.

    I do not know any climate warming activists who don’t want workers to retrain to new employable skills.

  28. Trish Corry

    You could do that for every group Johnno. For example you could centralise low income recipients and how the shift towards a post coal climate affects them. This type of view is not limited to workers, any group can be examined. Every time you place a group in the centre of the framework it should highlight the risks and benefits for each group. It also highlights where the current debate may include or exclude a group. From there strategy can be developed. For the purpose of this article and what I advocate workers being displaced is an important discussion I want to generate. However I am just as interested how this change will affect other groups.

  29. Trish Corry

    People ARE advocating for the closure of all mines over time. Some are also advocating for the eradication of beef farming to reduce methane gas emissions as I discussed in a previous article.

  30. Trish Corry

    Climate change activists insisting to shut down industry are implicit in the loss of jobs if they are also not insisting upon action for displaced workers.

  31. Freethinker

    Looks like that Miller is a PM material but it will never happens

  32. diannaart

    Climate change activists insisting to shut down industry are implicit in the loss of jobs if they are also not insisting upon action for displaced workers.

    Climate activists world wide have been and continue to advocate for retraining workers in defunct industries. In previous debates, many have presented you with relevant links to organisation which are doing just that.

    So here I go again:

    http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-energy/renewable-energy/public-benefits-of-renewable-power#.WW8JTvr6U6I

    Compared with fossil fuel technologies, which are typically mechanized and capital intensive, the renewable energy industry is more labor-intensive. This means that, on average, more jobs are created for each unit of electricity generated from renewable sources than from fossil fuels.
    Renewable energy already supports thousands of jobs in the United States. For example, in 2011, the wind energy industry directly employed 75,000 full-time-equivalent employees in a variety of capacities, including manufacturing, project development, construction and turbine installation, operations and maintenance, transportation and logistics, and financial, legal, and consulting services [10]. More than 500 factories in the United States manufacture parts for wind turbines, and the amount of domestically manufactured equipment used in wind turbines has grown dramatically in recent years: from 35 percent in 2006 to 70 percent in 2011

    https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/uploads/9bbeec4336c0f87f7e04205516b3cfa7.pdf

    Job losses in coal fired electricity generation are more than compensated for by increased employment in the renewable energy sector. However, the transition for employees in the fossil fuel sector must be planned well.

    A large proportion of new jobs gained in the electricity supply sector by 2030 will stem from construction and installation
    activities related to renewable energy infrastructure. Many of these jobs will be additional to
    the economy, though location and skills may differ from those currently in demand.

    http://helioscsp.com/australia-activists-plan-long-walk-for-csp/

    Now we have a good chance to get the ball rolling. Port Augusta, for many reasons, is the obvious place to start implementing a switch to 100% renewable energy, particularly since the current coal-fired power stations are closing and the electricity grid infrastructure that would be required for a solar thermal plant there is already in place.

    From the safe-climate perspective, solar rather than gas is the obvious choice. But gas would seem short-sighted even from an economic perspective. Gas would require investment in a new gas pipeline, which is likely to become a stranded asset as global gas prices rise.

    In contrast, once a solar thermal plant is built, fuel costs are more-or-less free, and we don’t need to ravage the countryside to harvest sunlight.

    Danny Kakoschke (DK): I am walking the 328 kilometres from Port Augusta to Adelaide because it symbolises the importance of acting on climate change. It would take most people a lot to walk over 300 kilometres, and climate change is a lot.

    Solar thermal power is a technology that makes a lot of sense to use in Australia. In a land both so blessed and cursed by the sun we ought use the sun for as much good as possible and trying to unfuck our planet is a heck of a lot of good.

    Port Augusta is a good place to build solar thermal plants because the infrastructure already exists. Gas would require new pipelines and
    [other infrastructure and] provides very few jobs.

    Solar, on the other hand, creates lots of jobs. This is good because it keeps Port Augusta’s economy going. Gas would be bad not just for Port Augusta but also for the environment. Methane has an effect 25 times worse on global warming than carbon dioxide.

    Leonora Herweijer (LH): I’m walking in solidarity with the Port Augusta community: they’ve had enough of the pollution, health effects and uncertainty around jobs and the future of the local economy. We cannot justify energy consumption at the expense of the welfare and health of the communities affected and the environment.

    Over generations, different movements have come together to create change through strong displays of community [power] and [have built] widespread support to make politicians and power holders listen. Take [US farm labour rights activist] Cesar Chavez and the striking farmers who walked 300 miles to Sacramento in 1966.

    I will provide more evidence later. Although just the above should give pause for thought on starting up new fossil fuel industries.

  33. paulwalter

    Can think for itself..can’t have that!

  34. paulwalter

    Hey, FT, while we are waiting for Corry, just watching a story about a really shonky deal the government won’t own up to, as to a giftie from the government to Foxtel. Wonder if it will fly? Sure looked rotten from what I’ve just watched.

  35. Trish Corry

    Jobs advocacy is not evident in the wider observable narrative across social media, newspaper forums nor in the political debate. The fact that the majority of people responding to this in this thread have honed in on climate change, some their participation as activists, and no one is discussing the shift to preventative unemployment measures speaks to this as well. Jobs advocacy and action for workers is far removed from being a key narrative in the debate towards a post coal world.

  36. Trish Corry

    What are you waiting for me for Paul?

  37. Trish Corry

    Oh goodness hardly PM material. Maybe check her out before you blindly praise her. One of my least favourite Labor MPs.

  38. silkworm

    It is not the role of the Greens or progressives generally to suggest or provide alternative employment for coal-miners. That is the job of the government.

  39. diannaart

    Trish

    I will be back…

    …with more evidence (you can blithely dismiss) tomorrow.

  40. Trish Corry

    Dianna unless you do a qualitative analysis of the commentary in this space to show wide spread concern for workers in this debate, all the links you have will demonstrate nothing. How do you explain even the response to this article mostly being about climate change and more defence about anti Adani. How do you explain that most of the comments even in this very small space of commenters fit into the themes outlined in the article? How do you explain the absence of even remote excitement about how a shift to a preventative unemployment strategy could be a strategy to consider to move towards a post coal world? Surely if jobs were a real concern, how to get there during and post transition would be raised. Don’t you think? Answers to those questions would be more helpful than links.

  41. paulwalter

    Sorry, the news story linked, re Miller?

  42. Trish Corry

    Oh I answered Free before

  43. paulwalter

    Yeah,? Like how many jobs as to a public works program would a $billion pay for?

  44. Freethinker

    Trish, I would not like to put any suggestions about programs/policies to create employment because I will label hard line socialist or even communist and I have not patience for that kind of nonsense, so let leave this for others.

  45. Trish Corry

    I’d prefer to hear about jobs solutions rather than the continuous defence of why job losses are justified. I might fall off my chair if someone wants to engage in a discussion about preventative unemployment.

  46. Trish Corry

    Where is the billion dollars coming from?

  47. jim

    I’d like a RC into the LNP and the Adani project why are the LNP pushing this mine so hard, could there be money in the deal for them or their mates? why can’t our existing mines increase their output? why can’t they expand their existing ports I’ve heard some, skim money out of these coal deals, big money.
    Well maybe the NWO elite want the rail line to be built to enable mass migration from indonesia, remember there are 240 million Indonesians, most willing to work for $5 a day. well maybe?. LOL.

  48. Freethinker

    Trish CorryJuly 19, 2017 at 7:10 pm
    Where is the billion dollars coming from?
    for what Trish?

    Jobs solutions? look into the globalisation policies and implement protection to our industries that depend on the supply of primary industry products. Before some come with an argument against that we import from countries that protect their industry.
    Subdive primary land and provide support to small farmers to make our primary industry secure.
    Nationalise the Australian ports and other assets privatised by previous governments.
    Create an effective and sustainable irrigation system to increase the land suitable for the production of crops.
    Open new TAFE and agricultural colleges in regional cities to train the workforce
    Back to you Trish, you have some ideas in there to debate.

  49. diannaart

    How do you explain the absence of even remote excitement about how a shift to a preventative unemployment strategy could be a strategy to consider to move towards a post coal world?

    How do I explain absence of remote excitement…WTF???

    How about YOU start conversing with people upon ways to implement more jobs as we transition to new technologies?

    How about reading some of the many links Kaye Lee and many others have provided you instead of banging on about some “green activists” who (apparently) haven’t displayed enough care about workers.

    I will not be posting any more links, as you are simply not interested.

    Any progressive sites I have visited in the past 10 years, have had a significant priority for jobs in the future – for everyone.

    It is not just mining jobs under threat, Trish, it is practically everything – with the notable exception of politicians, CEO’s and persons of extreme wealth.

  50. Trish Corry

    Oh spare me Dianna.

  51. Trish Corry

    The billion dollars was a response to Paul sorry Free. Well I like the sound of all of those. Tell me more please on how the subdivision of farming land benefits the situation.

  52. Trish Corry

    How about YOU start conversing with people upon ways to implement more jobs as we transition to new technologies?

    Dianna you seriously just made that comment to the author of an article which proposes an entire policy shift with examples of practical outcomes. And you want your comments to be taken seriously? I doubt now you have even read it.

  53. Harquebus

    diannart
    Please include the EROEI analyses with your evidence. I am keen to study them.

    Trish
    There is no way to avoid mass unemployment. Too many people and diminishing returns on finite resources guarantees it. Take your blinkers off or you will be blindsided like most everyone else.

  54. Freethinker

    Trish there are many articles about agrarian reform but just think about the amount of work not only for the farmers owners but to all those that provide services.
    Big farms in productive land do not produce enough labor and benefits to the local population and most important mono-crops are not good for the environment.
    There are books about agrarian reform and it is impossible to dedicate space here to this topic.
    In the case of mini-farms, small industries and cooperatives do a search on barefoot economics and you will find many examples.
    The benefits of all the above are not only for those that work now (or planning to work) in coal mines but for the future generations.
    Just to implementing a sustainable and efficient irrigation systems in Australia will provide more work and benefits that any coal mine.
    All the above have a win win result, environmental, social and economic.
    The only catch it is that spread the wealth among the population instead of few which will be fight tooth and nail against that.

  55. Rossleigh

    A large part of the problem is the way we think about jobs, work and the division of labour.
    Having recently watched “The Handmaid’s Tale”, I realize that we could create a whole new industry and it would provide plenty of jobs. Not only that, once we banned women from working, there’d be plenty of jobs going.
    Ok, only for men and some of you may find this a bit sexist and totally unacceptable, but it might be less harmful in the long run than mining coal.

  56. Rossleigh

    All right, that wasn’t really my point, but I can’t help throwing chips into the middle of a flock of seagulls either!

    What I was going to say was more along the lines of we may need to look at how we share the work that needs doing, how we organise so that those who are left without paid work aren’t regarded as losers and how we ensure that people aren’t excluded from social contact just because they don’t have a job.

  57. Kaye Lee

    We can talk about “narratives” and “strategies” and “themes” but to what end? Can’t we come up with actual job and training suggestions?

    I, for one, appreciate diannaart’s information and practical suggestions.

    PS to Rossleigh, We need to value the role carers and volunteers play too. Increasing the age pension age to 70 is madness.

  58. Trish Corry

    I have two questions Free. How do we ensure as we transition to a new era, that the replacement jobs bring the same or more revenue, and sustain jobs to the same level of consumer spending and also not see the demise of too many small businesses who supply the coal/coal based energy sector? I have done a small amount of reading on agrarian economics, and the basic depth I got to was the the use of taxes to ensure the survival of farming. That I agree with, but it is also the limitation of my knowledge in this area. In my article I discuss a range of different options as the most common solution is renewables jobs in exchange for jobs. An engineer I know said the same jobs for engineers aren’t in renewables as they are in mining. I think if we had something like what you are talking about, it is just a small part of a solution. The other question is With large parcels of land owned by individuals or partnerships, how does the land get subdivided? Is it a forced take over? Government buy out? Or do the same people still own the land and Government incentivises for them to sub divide?

  59. Keith

    Trish
    It is quite clear that unemployment is a huge issue world wide.
    Artificial Intelligence/automation are job killers.
    Arguably the neo con ideology is also not helping.

    While the Adani mine is supposedly a multi billion dollar venture; the industry as a whole creates multi billion dollar costs (Munich Re).
    Where is the sense in under 1,500 jobs putting at risk the 69,000 jobs involved in the Great Barrier reef? Though, it is likely that the Adani mine and Great Barrier Reef will not have a long further life (stranded assets, Tony Seba; and coral bleaching, Charlie Vernon).

    If there was a proposition to mine asbestos to create jobs, what would your response be?
    Or ramping up the tobacco industry?

    In my opinion they are mild propositions in comparison to climate change.

    Coal mining,:
    Black lung disease
    Respiratory problems
    Deaths from emissions especially in Asian countries
    Extreme weather costing billions of dollars each year (creating deaths, loss of private and public infra-structure)
    Anguish from the above
    Changes in disease vectors
    Stealing the future from young people already born, and future births

    It is politicians and entrepreneurs who cop flack, not coal workers.

    Wallace-Wells has produced an article about the risks of climate change published in the New York Times; it received much criticism. Subsequently, Wallace-Wells provided annotations to the article which was then re-published.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans-annotated.html

    There have been a number of climate scientists who have indicated their anguished feelings about climate change; their extremely rational science research does not bear such feelings. Some are indicating they will not have children.

    Should the Adani mine go ahead it has been stated that if seen as a separate entity it would rank 15th behind countries in the emissions created.

    Joe Room, a Physicist has written an article in relation to the Wallace-Wells article. The heading is hardly encouraging: “We aren’t doomed by climate change. Right now we are choosing to be doomed.” Till so far a business as usual approach is basically still operating around the planet, a very dangerous situation in relation to climate.

    https://thinkprogress.org/climate-change-doomsday-scenario-80d28affef2e

    About the time Christine Milne resigned from Parliament she made a very strong but simple message … “coal kills”. The research since that comment was made has become more scary.

    Since writing “Abrupt Climate Change: there’s strength in the science”, there has been more worrying research.

  60. Kaye Lee

    “How do we ensure as we transition to a new era, that the replacement jobs bring the same or more revenue, and sustain jobs to the same level of consumer spending”

    During the boom, many people were earning six figure incomes which was hugely above award wages. There is no way that truck drivers and cleaners and maintenance men etc can be promised that sort of money elsewhere.

    The mining companies themselves are waging a battle to cut back on wages when current contracts expire.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/five-years-after-the-boom-battle-rages-over-mining-wages-in-australia-20161123-gsvg98.html

  61. Freethinker

    Trish, I agree that the renewables can provide plenty work and is a part of the solution but I like the design and implementation of a sustainable and efficient irrigations system which can provide work Australia wide.
    Water is part of the problem that we have to address regarding climate change, food production for self sufficiency.
    The amount of work in that program it is immense.
    Regarding agrarian reform, well that is why I mentioned that some are going to label me hard line socialist or communist so I rather keep out of it but just think in the amount of farms in productive land that are not producing what suppose to do in an sustainable manner because the owners do not have the financial back up to do it, no man power or simple they are happy with the little that they produce.
    Well that owners have to subdivide or sell.

    We have to be very careful from where we get the information about agrarian reform. The majority of the sources come from the extreme right or neoliberal ideology.
    Cuba was the first to implement it and thanks to that they are self sufficient in food.

  62. Trish Corry

    Well Kaye narratives are very important in society. If one views phenomena through the lens of symbolic interactionism or even phenomenology, the themes, meanings of language and symbols inform us about the phenomenon. Themes break down the narrative in the phenomenon. That means we can understand how people participate within the phenomenon and how all of that participation, including narrative is currently shaping society. The narrative also informs us about mood, emotion, beliefs and values. for example there is a lot of narrative about climate change and anti coal, but very little about jobs and economy as we transition towards a new revolution.
    This is although it is recognised that this will be a major structural change. A second industrial revolution some say.
    So to what end? You ask? Because the items you have placed in air quotes are critical Kaye to understanding perspective. Reframing various actors in a framework give different views of the problem. So I guess it depends if one sees value in understanding and investigating problems when you ask “to what end”
    As for the “strategies” I’m pretty sure the shift to a preventative unemployment framework is that discussion about jobs and training solutions because it underpins how we look at job losses and unemployment during and post transition. I’ve already written about 1000 words on it. I think I’ve made a contribution already. I’m surprised you missed that entire section of the article.

  63. Freethinker

    Kaye Lee, we cannot keep living in the way that we are now, it is not sustainable, consumerism have to be cut, people have to be less greed.
    Macroeconomics theory have to change, the pursuit for growth have to be replaced by concentrating in development.
    There are many new documents in the internet by leaders in macroeconomics that are saying the globalisation in the current form does not work.
    We need political will.

  64. Trish Corry

    I have an interest in turning non arable land into arable land. Investment in that research could offer so much employment and build communities in many areas in Australia. The problem I have been told is water and desalination is too expensive.

  65. Freethinker

    Trish, just have a look what Israel have done and you will see that all are excuses.
    Micro irrigation is one of the solutions but there are more.
    Israel have done it because sovereignty and we have to do the same because is our future.
    We cannot sell the land to foreign capitals, they know that we will be the salad bowl of the world.

  66. Kaye Lee

    Trish, I have reread your article several times. It is full of statements like “If one views phenomena through the lens of symbolic interactionism or even phenomenology, the themes, meanings of language and symbols inform us about the phenomenon.”

    I do understand how language can influence perception but I very much doubt that the unemployed would find solace in your erudition.

    If we are putting people first, which I think is the point of some of your articles, then we need practical suggestions rather than a word fest.

    For example…..

    If we are concerned about power prices then we could make electricity and gas GST free – they are for businesses (we can claim the GST back), why not for people?

    We could have some sort of body that combines business representatives, unions, and educators to advise on training for future employment needs.

    We could reinstate the Commonwealth Employment Service which actually DID find people work.

    We could put together a mobile agrarian workforce and the transport to take them where they are needed to assist farmers in harvest or fencing or whatever.

    We need ideas.

  67. Trish Corry

    Kaye, perhaps you just don’t value qualitative frameworks and perhaps you don’t understand the importance of the shift proposed to a preventative unemployment strategy. Or perhaps his is just you again telling me how I should write or what I should write about – again. I believe I don’t extend the same to you. I have suggested a huge policy shift. What is the point of your ideas if they exist with the current reactionary , punitive unemployment framework? Although you appear to not value or understand the importance of the policy shift, to dismiss it as we transition forward and to talk about ideas as they exist now, in my opinion is not productive. So that’s my answer to you when you insist your way is so much better than anything I have written here. My way would be to explore ideas as I have suggested in the actual article, within a preventative unemployment framework.

  68. Kaye Lee

    Righto Trish. I guess I just don’t understand what you are looking for in the comments on your article. If you want a discussion about qualitative frameworks then I apologise. I thought we were talking about sustainable employment.

  69. Trish Corry

    No Kaye. I guess when you patronise someone’s writing style and their approach to an article, dismiss it as a non contribution to the current debate and insist we need “ideas instead” and then critique it as if you understand it when you clearly don’t, I guess I’m not looking for you to come along and direct the comments of what you think they should be about based on what you misinterpret the article is about. Rude! I do not extend the same to you Kaye on your articles.

    The article is about employment Kaye. I have no idea how you think the article is a discussion of qualitative frameworks. Do you think every economics paper is a discussion of a quantitative framework?

  70. Kaye Lee

    Talk about being verballed. If you put something in quotation marks then you shouldn’t add your own words Trish.

    If you look back through my comments Trish you will see that I have tried to make positive suggestions. You have totally misrepresented my contribution as some sort of attack on you.

    One of the things I have always truly appreciated about this site is the intelligent discussion that ensues from very well-informed readers. I have learned so much from commenters here. Please stop making this personal. You imagine criticism that was never intended and never written.

  71. Freethinker

    Tis have become a very constructive debate which will be an envy to the Republicans
    Cheers

  72. Elle

    Helen BatesJuly 19, 2017 at 8:30 am wrote: Climate change is happening but people need to work and survive as well.The scare mongers all would have us believing the end is on us now but going by past predictions we have time

    2005, Andrew Simms, policy director of the New Economics Foundation: “Scholars are predicting that 50 million people worldwide will be displaced by 2010 because of rising sea levels, desertification, dried up aquifers, weather-induced flooding and other serious environmental changes.”

    —***—

    UNHCR 6 November 2016

    Displacement linked to climate change is not a future hypothetical – it’s a current reality.

    How many people are already displaced by climate change?

    Displacement linked to climate change is not a future hypothetical – it’s a current reality. An annual average of 21.5 million people have been forcibly displaced by weather-related sudden onset hazards – such as floods, storms, wildfires, extreme temperature – each year since 2008. Thousands of others flee their homes in the context of slow-onset hazards, such as droughts or coastal erosion linked to sea level rise. There is high agreement among scientists that climate change, in combination with other drivers, is projected to increase displacement of people in the future.

    Climate change is also a “threat multiplier” in many of today’s conflicts, from Darfur to Somalia to Iraq and Syria. The Arab Spring is commonly seen as leading to Syria’s conflict, but people tend to forget the five-year drought in Syria’s northeast that preceded the war and the displacement of some 1.5 million people. Climate change sows seeds for conflict, but it also makes displacement much worse when it happens.

    Which regions are most at risk?

    No region is immune from climate change, but the risks of displacement are greatest for countries with high exposure to hazards and with large populations in areas that lack the capacity or resources to adequately prepare. Asia sees more natural hazards than any other region – in 2015, 85 per cent of people displaced by sudden onset disasters were in South and East Asia. For example, flooding in the southern Indian states of Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh caused 1.8 million people to be displaced, while Cyclone Komen and monsoon floods in both Myanmar and India led to displacement of 1.6 million and 1.2 million people respectively. However, Asia is the region with the largest percentage of global population. When considering population size, Vanuatu and Tuvalu were hit hardest in 2015 when Cyclone Pam displaced 55 and 25 per cent respectively of the countries’ populations.

    In general, low and lower-middle income countries have the most displacement linked to disasters, including in the context of climate change.

    http://www.unhcr.org/en-au/news/latest/2016/11/581f52dc4/frequently-asked-questions-climate-change-disaster-displacement.html

    An annual average of 21.5 million people have been forcibly displaced by weather-related sudden onset hazards – such as floods, storms, wildfires, extreme temperature – each year since 2008.

    Thousands of others flee their homes in the context of slow-onset hazards, such as droughts or coastal erosion linked to sea level rise. There is high agreement among scientists that climate change, in combination with other drivers, is projected to increase displacement of people in the future.

  73. Trish Corry

    I don’t think anyone doubts not acting on climate change will not displace people and cause mass destruction and unemployment. The shift to actively shut down jobs is just as important as jobs being destroyed by inaction. The transition will occur, how and when are still unresolved. How we deal with it is the issue.

  74. Kaye Lee

    I would suggest we start by recognising that we don’t build new coal mines and new coal-fired power stations.

  75. Keith

    Professor Hansen,was “Asked to assess the world’s current progress in fighting climate change, he said the “s*** is hitting the fan”.” The article stating the quote was published yesterday.

    Some tasks suggested as necessary were planting trees, improve soil fertility, using biofuel and extracting the CO2 created and using technology to pull CO2 from the atmosphere if necessary.

    A further quote:

    “An international team of researchers – led by Professor Jim Hansen, Nasa’s former climate science chief – said their conclusion that the world had already overshot targets to limit global warming to within acceptable levels was “sufficiently grim” to force them to urge “rapid emission reductions”.”

    And:

    ““We conclude that the world has already overshot appropriate targets for greenhouse gas amount and global temperature, and we thus infer an urgent need for rapid phasedown of fossil fuel emissions [and] actions that draw down atmospheric carbon dioxide.”

    From:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/carbon-dioxide-remove-atmosphere-climate-change-greenhouse-gas-scientists-jim-hansen-a7847426.html

    Wallace-Wells, Romm, Hansen agree that taking real action in relation to climate change means that the edge can be taken off some of the more dire consequences. Hansen el al provide a response which is job creating, something we all want.

    The Adani mine in this context is pure madness.

  76. Elle

    Speaking of Jobs..

    Jobs and exports from existing coal regions will be decimated if the Galilee Basin is developed for coal mining, according to new research.

    Globally renowned resource analytics firm Wood Mackenzie, which conducted the research, is forecasting massive reductions in future coal output from the NSW Hunter Valley and significant falls in Queensland’s Bowen and Surat basins.

    However, the new research suggests that while the development of the Galilee Basin would expand coal exports overall, it would come at a severe cost to jobs and economies in other regions.

    According to its findings:

    •Ten new mining projects or mine expansions in the NSW Hunter Valley would be displaced by the Galilee Basin output and shelved or delayed

    •Eight mining projects or expansions would be delayed or shelved in Queensland

    •Hunter Valley thermal coal output would fall by some 86 million tonnes, or 37 per

    •Bowen Basin output would decline by nearly a third, with 17 million fewer tonnes mined

    •The Surat Basin in south-east Queensland, which is yet to be developed, would produce 37 per cent less coal than it otherwise would

    Jonathan Van Rooyen, the general manager of investments at The Infrastructure Fund, said the impact for the Port of Newcastle “is pretty devastating”.

    “I’m an investor, not a politician, but it seems a perverse outcome when you are taking jobs in one part of the country and promoting them there and displacing them or destroying them in other parts of the country,” he told the ABC.

    “The addition of significant new coal supply from a new basin will inevitably displace coal production, and coal jobs, in existing coal basins in NSW and Southern Queensland.

    “To the extent that the Adani mine lives up to its promise to be automated ‘from pit to port’ it is likely that substituting a million tonnes of coal production in the Galilee for a million tonnes of coal production from NSW will result in a net reduction in jobs.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-06/galilee-basin-mining-project-will-reduce-coal-output:-research/8682164

    1500 (or so) new jobs = good, very important
    executing tens of thousands of existing jobs in regional towns in the process is good for the sake of 1500 (or so) new jobs for a brand new mine (that should not go ahead) = good

    My My

    Global Warming Denalists. We do see them breathing away among the ALP too

  77. Matters Not

    The article is about employment

    So the article is about EMPLOYMENT. And yet we have responses such as:

    If one views phenomena through the lens of symbolic interactionism or even phenomenology, the themes, meanings of language and symbols inform us about the phenomenon. Themes break down the narrative in the phenomenon. That means we can understand how people participate within the phenomenon and how all of that participation, including narrative is currently shaping society. The narrative also informs us about mood, emotion, beliefs and values

    Give me a break.

    (By the way, Trish you neglected to mention ethnomethodology. Or have those philosophical, conceptual, and methodological differences and problems between perspectives been resolved?

    Perhaps when I wasn’t looking?. Perhaps you have a reference?)

  78. Trish Corry

    That response was to Kaye Lees dismissal of using narrative to understand a problem. It does not form part of the article.

  79. Trish Corry

    Feel free to rewrite this or add to the debate using your own approach Matters Not. I know you are no dummy.

  80. Trish Corry

    Yes but this is not just about Adani is it? Or does the shift towards climate change action stop when Adani is stopped? Have I missed something?

  81. Joseph Carli

    Michael…Can I suggest you take that comment by ;”The Truth”, copy it , frame it in a ornate border and paste it up in a display position on the blog front page as an example of the most remarkable shit-for-brains comment EVER written by a RWNJ trying their best to appear as if a full-frontal lobotomy has NO EFFECT on their usual state of mind….AND being absolutely correct in that assessment.

  82. Matters Not

    TC, the older I get, the more I realise how ‘dumb’ I am. These days I choose to use brackets ‘ ‘ – liberally.

    My rule of thumb is along the lines – While doubt is not a pleasant state of mind – certainty is ridiculous.

    Perhaps is now my watchword. Perhaps, most important when it comes to any ‘discussion’? Tentative conclusions and all that?

  83. Kaye Lee

    And once we have used the narrative to understand the problem, what are the practical suggestions to fix it?

  84. Roswell

    Joseph, too late to ask Michael that now. His comment has been deleted. That person is a known troll who has been blocked from commenting here but keeps coming back in different disguises.

  85. Trish Corry

    maybe read the second half of the article Kaye. It might give you a clue. Assuming you do not mean that I have not made any suggestions in the article, I will outline again here. I discuss a very practical solution of shifting to a preventative unemployment strategy. away from the reactionary and punitive curative unemployment strategies of today. However, I suggest if you do read the second half of the article, the practical solution is there, with examples. A shift to this type of framework, in my point of view is significant in the way we approach the structural shift which is ahead of us. It will determine the way we formulate the ideas in the way forward, because if frames the entire way politics approaches the unemployed in a very different way to what it is now. Examples are given in the article.

  86. Joseph Carli

    ” coming back in different disguises.”…like the same “limp-dick” flasher in a new raincoat.

  87. Harquebus

    Trish
    You are not advocating change, you are looking for ways to continue business as usual. That ain’t gonna happen.
    I admire your concern and your efforts but, you are barking up the wrong tree.

    “We have been led to believe that living sustainably or reducing our “carbon footprint” is difficult, expensive, reliant on new technologies, and involves personal discomfort. None of that is true.”
    http://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-04-18/what-an-energy-revolution-looks-like/

    This is why there is not going to be the jobs that you desire.

    “Growth of production is central to the core ideology of the current economic system, to the idea of “development” and “progress”. It is central to the legitimacy of the people who run the global economy. Without it there is a legitimacy crisis.”
    “The growth of industrial production would however lead to increase pollution and wastes as well as to resource depletion. It would be these two processes that would feed back and eventually lead to a decline in both industrial and food production.”
    “This problem of having to use progressively inferior resources as depletion occurs is also especially true of fossil fuels because once they have been burned they cannot be re-cycled or re-used.”
    “Will the growth of renewables be sufficient to sustain economic growth and sustain a consumer society? Some people think so. But among experts there is a huge gulf in opinion and the debate has sometimes been acrimonious.”
    http://www.feasta.org/2017/04/18/limits-to-economic-growth/

    “In simplest terms, our problem is that we as a people are no longer getting richer. Instead, we are getting poorer, as evidenced by the difficulty young people are now having getting good-paying jobs. As we get poorer, it becomes harder and harder to pay debt back with interest.”
    “there is not enough oil to both (1) offset the many depletion issues the world economy is hitting, plus (2) add new factories and extraction capability that is needed for the world economy to grow.”
    “Economists have missed the key role oil plays–a role that is not easily substituted away. Our transportation, farming and construction industries are all heavily dependent on oil. Many products are made with oil, from medicines to fabrics to asphalt.”
    “high investment in intermittent renewables can expected to drive economies that build them toward collapse more quickly, because of their high front-end investment capital requirements and low short-term returns.”
    “Governments rely on economists who seem to be clueless regarding what is happening.”
    “Wrong thinking and wishful thinking seems to abound, when it comes to overlooking near term limits to growth.”
    http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-growth-at-our-doorstep-but-not-recognized/

    As a scientist myself, I feel this guy’s pain.

    “”The reef is in strife, and to say otherwise is bullshit,” he tells me at Rivendell. “Half the place is dead already. It won’t be here in 15 years.”
    “No one ever listens to me, I’m just a marine scientist”
    “There will be immense social disruption, mass starvation, resource wars, cyclones the likes of which we’ve never experienced.”
    “There is a quite high rate of depression among scientists. We see it ourselves. We have been trying to get the message out for 30 years. We are going over a precipice, and there’s nothing we can do about it.”
    http://www.theage.com.au/good-weekend/charlie-veron-the-dire-environmental-prognosis-we-cannot-ignore-20170711-gx8tqr.html

  88. Matters Not

    What is work? And why are so many keen to engage? Is it just the means to generate an income? Or are there psychological and sociological implications that go far beyond financial ‘income’? if so, then why not spell them out? After all, the technology being developed is designed to be labor displacing. And that’s fantastic. Thank goodness that the wheelbarrow replaced the bucket. And that the bulldozer made X number of jobs redundant.

    It seems to me that the fundamental problem isn’t ‘jobs’ or ’employment’ or even ‘technology’ BUT who is to be the beneficiaries. Now that shouldn’t be a problem in a democracy?

    As for the need to ‘externalise’ oneself – to become the sculler rather than the galley slave – that’s another ‘problem’.

  89. Trish Corry

    I do not deny climate change H. A concern for jobs and a belief in climate change can occur at the same time. I disagree that a shift to how we approach unemployment using preventative measures is barking up the wrong tree, unless you can give me a different approach to consider.

  90. thebustopher

    This article is ten times better than “The Wizard of Oz”. There was only one straw man in that story.

  91. Trish Corry

    That would make for an interesting article and discussion. In my own personal research for other purposes, there is a lot of evidence it is more than just financial. However, I am sure you already know that. A preventative unemployment framework would shift the thinking away from blaming the unemployed and accept there are deficiencies in not enough demand for the supply of labour. So if that was the cultural shift in thinking, would we more widely accept that not everyone, who is able should be employed or can be employed? How would Governments respond? The idea is that they would intervene more and create more jobs.

  92. halfbreeder

    Terry2, TownsvilleBlog and nurse1968. You are all incorrect and you are propagating the lies regarding job generation by the Adani mine. Adani’s own SWORN evidence in the Queensland Land Court given by their expert was that the mine will only create 1464 EQUIVALENT FULL TIME JOB HOURS OVER THE WHOLE 25 to 60 YEAR LIFE SPAN OF THE MINE. That is 1464 jobs over the whole 25 to 60 years NOT per year or on an on-going jobs. These job figures include both direct and indirect jobs. In other words, not all jobs touted for the mine will be actually at the mine but will be indirect jobs necessary for servicing the mine and they could be thousands of miles away in Brisbane or Sydney. In total the actual full-time ongoing jobs created will be between 25 to 54 equivalent full-time jobs at any point in time by the mine as most of those will be part-time or casual jobs that, when combined, EQUATE to 1464 full-time equivalent annual jobs as the mine will be fully automated. Neither does this figure take into account the jobs lost by the destruction of the Reef that the Adani mine will cause. I suggest you read this article.If you dispute its facts and conclusions please say why you do so? If it’s too hard for you to understand – as it seems to be for politicians – please ask for questions and seek clarification from the author but it seems to me the arithmetic in the article is sound and self explanatory. https://theaimn.com/odious-adani-coal-mine/

  93. Elle

    How would governments respond?

    Hopefully not.like.this

    If one views phenomena through the lens of symbolic interactionism or even phenomenology, the themes, meanings of language and symbols inform us about the phenomenon. Themes break down the narrative in the phenomenon. That means we can understand how people participate within the phenomenon and how all of that participation, including narrative is currently shaping society. The narrative also informs us about mood, emotion, beliefs and values.

    Less Turnbull-like waffle would be a good idea.

  94. Trish Corry

    Oh for gods sake do a few of you get together in inbox or something? It is pretty clear I am the least popular author on AIMN amongst the regular commenters, my articles are often disagreed with because you are mainly all Greens voters and I certainly am not; my perspective and approach are different and so what! but repeating this comment I made to Kaye because she dismissed the value of using narrative – three times now is highly pathetic, even going by the long standing have a go at Trish standards. massive eye roll

  95. Roswell

    Never voted Greens in my life.

  96. Matters Not

    TC, settle down. Clearly, you are not the least popular author. (And if you were – you could regard it as a matter of pride.)

    While I did draw attention the quote cited by Elle, I did so with somewhat different intent. I don’t think it was waffle. Just a point of discussion.

    Perhaps the odd ‘perhaps’ might soften your intended blows?

  97. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    Trish Corry. Yes Trish there are a group of regulars here who criticise much but contribute very little else. Think many are retired school teachers and frustrated academics.

  98. Elle

    Waffle in the sense it was a major eye roll from my end when it first hit my eyes. Usually when I read writing like that, I usually scroll on by (headache prevention, you know).. move on as there are many more wonderful insightful commentary to read and reflect on.

    So get this.. Then I see it quoted not once, but twice. Laughs. And that made me laugh. Laughter is good for the soul 🙂

  99. Matters Not

    who criticise much but contribute very little

    The again there’s OTMP who has the distinction of contributing nothing but historical ‘spelling’. Hasn’t caught up apparently. Despite 5 Degrees.

    Oh how we laughed.

  100. Elle

    Neoliberalism has conned us into fighting climate change as individuals

    Stop obsessing with how personally green you live – and start collectively taking on corporate power

    “While we busy ourselves greening our personal lives, fossil fuel corporations are rendering these efforts irrelevant. The breakdown of carbon emissions since 1988? A hundred companies alone are responsible for an astonishing 71 percent. You tinker with those pens or that panel; they go on torching the planet.

    The freedom of these corporations to pollute – and the fixation on a feeble lifestyle response – is no accident. It is the result of an ideological war, waged over the last forty years, against the possibility of collective action. Devastatingly successful, it is not too late to reverse it.”

    The political project of neoliberalism, brought to ascendence by Thatcher and Reagan, has pursued two principal objectives. The first has been to dismantle any barriers to the exercise of unaccountable private power. The second had been to erect them to the exercise of any democratic public will.

    Its trademark policies of privatization, deregulation, tax cuts and free trade deals: these have liberated corporations to accumulate enormous profits and treat the atmosphere like a sewage dump, and hamstrung our ability, through the instrument of the state, to plan for our collective welfare.

    Anything resembling a collective check on corporate power has become a target of the elite: lobbying and corporate donations, hollowing out democracies, have obstructed green policies and kept fossil fuel subsidies flowing; and the rights of associations like unions, the most effective means for workers to wield power together, have been undercut whenever possible.

    At the very moment when climate change demands an unprecedented collective public response, neoliberal ideology stands in the way. Which is why, if we want to bring down emissions fast, we will need to overcome all of its free-market mantras: take railways and utilities and energy grids back into public control; regulate corporations to phase out fossil fuels; and raise taxes to pay for massive investment in climate-ready infrastructure and renewable energy — so that solar panels can go on everyone’s rooftop, not just on those who can afford it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/jul/17/neoliberalism-has-conned-us-into-fighting-climate-change-as-individuals#img-1

  101. Elle

    From the article too

    Neoliberalism has not merely ensured this agenda is politically unrealistic: it has also tried to make it culturally unthinkable. Its celebration of competitive self-interest and hyper-individualism, its stigmatization of compassion and solidarity, has frayed our collective bonds. It has spread, like an insidious anti-social toxin, what Margaret Thatcher preached: “there is no such thing as society.”

    Studies show that people who have grown up under this era have indeed become more individualistic and consumerist. Steeped in a culture telling us to think of ourselves as consumers instead of citizens, as self-reliant instead of interdependent, is it any wonder we deal with a systemic issue by turning in droves to ineffectual, individual efforts? We are all Thatcher’s children.

    Even before the advent of neoliberalism, the capitalist economy had thrived on people believing that being afflicted by the structural problems of an exploitative system – poverty, joblessness, poor health, lack of fulfillment – was in fact a personal deficiency.

  102. Trish Corry

    I don’t think there is anything funny about nasty comments, particularly when for years now the same people like yourself, seem to get their rocks off by attacking me, rather than talking about the article. I question what type of small mindedness drives it. In a sense, it is nothing but pathetic trolling. I certainly don’t welcome it.

  103. Elle

    Neoliberalism has taken this internalized self-blame and turbocharged it. It tells you that you should not merely feel guilt and shame if you can’t secure a good job, are deep in debt, and are too stressed or overworked for time with friends. You are now also responsible for bearing the burden of potential ecological collapse.

    This really stood out to me.

    I sense there is a divide on this website between the pro new mines vs no more new mines. New Jobs at the expense of the environment and people and job losses around the country for the sake of 1500 (or so) new jobs created in one region = Neoliberalism. “You are stopping new jobs, you don’t care about people, how dare you..while at the same time climate change is a thing nodding agreeable = Neoliberalism

    As Ellis Winningham says: You can not fight neoliberalism with neoliberalism.

  104. Trish Corry

    You seriously do not understand the article at all Elle. How dare you? How dare I what? Suggest an approach to projected unemployment projected as a result of this pending transition by using preventative measures, rather than the current reactionary and punitive unemployment framework? How dare I. I bet the people who will be unemployed will be disappointed that they won’t be treated like crap or maybe not even unemployed if what I suggest is implemented.Yes, what a nasty neo-liberal person I am. massive eye roll

  105. Trish Corry

    What has this got to do with the article? These are stats from retail trade.

  106. Elle

    TC,

    I have no idea what you are talking about, it might be the time of night though.

    Sleep well.
    I hope your eyes are better tomorrow

    Cheers

    PS. I shared a couple of links and highlights, in reference to conversations, dialogue in the comments. One of which was about climate change and consumerism (and greed).

    I shared the retail figures to highlight consumerism overall is slowing down compared pre GFC days.

    This too might be problematic if we start to see stores close down. I thought the topic was about jobs?

  107. Trish Corry

    I have no idea either. I will just delete it. It is pointless.

  108. corvus boreus

    Yes, the transition from coal (an urgent necessity) should (must) include proactive means of boosting/generating alternative avenues of employment for those currently employed within those industries.
    No, this ‘transition’ shouldn’t (cannot) include approving and subsiding the opening of new mega-coalmines by foreign corporations.

  109. havanaliedown

    Remind me why it’s OK to dig up Uranium, sell it to other countries – but we’re too stupid to use it ourselves.

  110. Joseph Carli

    havanameltdown..;”Remind me why it’s OK to dig up Uranium, sell it to other countries – but we’re too stupid to use it ourselves.”…the same reason we..or at least most of us..perhaps above company excepted..do not eat our own shit.

  111. havanaliedown

    Eating “Our own shit” cannot fuel base-load power that modern industrialised societies require.

  112. Johno

    Joseph… Using the spelling Havanameltdown is ironically appropriate considering Chernobyl, Fukushima et al.

  113. Terry2

    havana

    That’s what the new owners of Arrium Steel said the other day : why would a country with some of the biggest iron ore resources on the planet send it offshore and create employment in other countries smelting it into steel – that’s crazy.

    Sometimes it takes foreign eyes to point out how stupid we can be in this country.

  114. Keith

    Trish

    In previous articles you have written fiercely to support the employment potentially created by Adani.
    Others have written about how employment in other coal mines is likely to be lost.

    You might regard the questions I asked previously about asbestos mining and promoting full on tobacco usage as being hyperbole. That is definitely not the case. It would be great if you could provide a response, promoting Adani is far worse in my view.

    Today I found this in my email in relation to Arctic sea ice:

    https://robertscribbler.com/2017/07/19/global-sea-ice-coverage-has-fallen-off-a-cliff-impacts-likely-to-be-wide-ranging/

    The graph shown here is a huge worry displaying sea ice volume in comparison to other years.

    https://robertscribbler.com/2017/07/19/global-sea-ice-coverage-has-fallen-off-a-cliff-impacts-likely-to-be-wide-ranging/#jp-carousel-15694

    What happens at the Poles has a huge impact on weather pattern extremes; jet streams altering, Ocean currents, crop viability, changes in habitats etc. CO2 does not recognise country borders.

    Also, in my email and Facebook notifications in the very recent past … there was an article about methane hotspots in the McKenzie Basin, Shakhova et al published a paper on methane voiding from the shallow Siberian Continental Shelf, and 7,000 new mounds have been picked up from satellite photos. The mounds/pingoes are formed through permafrost thawing causing methane to build up under the mound and potentially exploding. Such explosions have taken place over the last few years. These are just a few of the notifications I have received.

    The impacts of mining asbestos and tobacco smoking are horrendous; but, should they be allowed to be pushed as they create jobs?
    In my view the Adani proposal is far worse.
    Should you respond I will not be able to respond back till this evening.

  115. havanaliedown

    Chernobyl – built by a country of miserable captives chanting the slogan “They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work”. They also built the Trabant. Hmmm – should Mercedes, Audi, Mazda et al just give up based on the Trabant experience?

    Fukushima – built on the coast of a Tsunami and Eathquake affected country… It’s OK Johno – you won’t be asked to design an Australian Nuclear power industry.

  116. Terry2

    halfbreeder

    I was merely stating what Matthew Canavan had said on Q&A about 16000 direct jobs from the Adani Mine.

    I agree, that even Adani are not saying this but here we have a Minister propagating lies on national TV.

    I have been trying to find the ABC Q&A factcheck website to have this fake fact checked : I haven’t been able to find the site, any body got a link ?

  117. Trish Corry

    I do not agree I have written fiercely to defend the jobs created by Adani. My point has always been and still is the lack of compassion for jobs lost expressed by those against the mine. For the reason no one cares if anything is in its place. As long as the mine is shut down, thats the main thing. This article is much bigger than Adani Keith. Unless of course the Anti-Adani movement is only about rallying against an Indian owned company and not about climate change. I think the amount of comments in this thread discussing climate change, or seeking to convince me that climate change exists, and the lack of interest in the discussion on policy shift to approach unemployment, only further cements that the anti-adani / climate change activist care little about jobs. My article talks about moving towards a post coal world. It does not state that climate change does not exist, nor is it a fight against the transition to post coal.

  118. Joseph Carli

    Brilliant!…Havana responds, opening the door for a legitimate “critique” of his policy…

    Havana’..you and your “let’s go nuclear” mates are not very bright , are you..after so many..and there have been many, disasters or near disasters , mnay not reported..with this almost uncontrollable force of energy, resulting in the abandonment of entire towns, farms, cities and regions, the pollution of vast areas over Europe yet to be admitted or publicly admitted, the pumping into the atmosphere or into the pacific ocean, the Arctic ocean or any other ocean near to or associated with a nuclear energy producing or weapons or powered military country and even the waste residual being used for weapons grade destruction with a half-life of :
    Scientific American..: “[This is Part 3 of an In-Depth Report on The Future of Nuclear Power.]

    A 98-foot-wide, two-mile-long ditch with steep walls 33 feet deep that bristles with magnets and radar reflectors will stand for millennia as a warning to future humans not to trifle with what is hidden inside the Waste Isolation Pilot Project (WIPP) outside Carlsbad, N.M. Paired with 48 stone or concrete 105-ton markers, etched with warnings in seven languages ranging from English to Navajo as well as human faces contorted into expressions of horror, the massive installation is meant to stand for at least 10,000 years—twice as long as the Egyptian pyramids have survived.

    But the plutonium ensconced in the salt mine at the center of this installation will be lethal to humans for at least 25 times that long—even once the salt walls ooze inward to entomb the legacy of American atomic weapons. And WIPP will only hold a fraction, though a more deadly fraction, of the amount of nuclear waste the U.S. plans to store at Yucca Mountain in Nevada or some other site designated to replace it as a permanent repository for the residue of nuclear reactions.”

    And yet, havana’..yourself , with a half life already lived and the rest useless to the greater majority of humanity, have no other thought toward supplying a few industries with base-load power that want to mould the metal for all those zircon-encrusted mustache twirlers so treasured by used-car salesmen living in on-site vans in the “Beau-Vista Caravan Park” on the verge of the Tullamarine Frwy, Mentone….no other idea at all?..not solar-thermal?..not wind generation / battery?..not even gas-fired!!?..
    Well..there you go…you’re a bright boy , havana’..not a doubt about it!

  119. Harquebus

    Trish
    You are not reading what I am providing you. It is diminishing returns from essential resources that will cause mass unemployment. This is a physical thing and can not be overcome. Our world is finite.
    You are thinking in the past when, you should be thinking about an alternative sustainable future which, will not include solar and wind for the same reason.

    “There will need to be a move to much smaller, human-scale, localized and decentralized systems that can sustain themselves within their own landbase. Industrial civilization and suburban living relies on cheap sources of energy to continue to grow and expand. That era is coming to an end. One of the most important tasks right now is to prepare for a very different way of life.
    http://www.countercurrents.org/2017/07/01/after-peak-oil-are-we-heading-toward-social-collapse/

    http://theaimn.com/depopulate-or-perish/

  120. helvityni

    Elle, you sound eerily familiar, have we met perhaps on another blog, I haven’t seen you here before…

  121. Freethinker

    Trish, have you the chance to do some light reading about irrigation in the desert?
    As I have said before the implementation and use of it will employ thousands more people that mining and will be better for the environment

    Managing Water for Irrigated Agriculture in the Central Arizona Desert
    https://toolkit.climate.gov/case-studies/managing-water-irrigated-agriculture-central-arizona-desert

    Growing veggies in the desert no longer a mirage
    http://www.dw.com/en/growing-veggies-in-the-desert-no-longer-a-mirage/a-17032261

    12 top ways Israel feeds the world
    https://www.israel21c.org/the-top-12-ways-israel-feeds-the-world/

    The above links are just a very basic reading for you to have an idea.
    You asked me about no tillage agriculture, well yes it is possible. When I done my studies in agricultural mechanisation I concentrated on that part, but have serious disagreements
    with the teaching of the techniques shown because were heavily dependent on chemicals specially Round Up
    There are other practices available but this is not the place to go into it.

    I am looking forward for your comments

  122. Johno

    Sounds good Freethinker. The are a couple of date farms in Oz, I have tried the dates and would kill for more as they are delicious. Dates are a very healthy complete food. I have tried to order more but they are always sold out. I think most of our dates are coming from the middle east eg Iraq/Iran. Date farming IMHO could be an awesome industry to be encouraged by our erstwhile progressive government. In the middle east there many different date varieties, most not seen here.

  123. Freethinker

    Johno, IMHO there are few important points that this program can help and are the following:

    1)Due to the increase of the world population food will be the most important “commodity” and because that, those countries that are self sufficient will the ones that will keep their sovereignty.
    2) If it is regulated and implemented properly it will be good for the environment.
    3) They will provide thousands of jobs, directly and indirectly and absorb the working force from the mining industry
    4) They will provide more work and improvements to the local Aborigines
    5) It should improve the quality of soils and increase the area of productive land
    6) It will open the options to educate the next generations in fields related to primary industry and alleviate the effects of automatisation regarding lost of jobs.

    There are many more benefits, only it is needed vision and political will.

  124. Johno

    Barnaby is minister for water and agriculture, just the man to get this going.

  125. Freethinker

    Johno, that is a bad joke. or you has been sarcastic.
    Just image all the resources and trails will be based on New England.

  126. diannaart

    Elle

    All your comments – thoughtful and all too relevant. I appreciate the work you have done and thank you.

    I thought, perhaps, we could hear from a former miner:

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/mining-far-dream-job

    …The skills base of miners has also changed significantly. The increase in computerisation and automation means very few workers are today employed at coalmines compared with the past.

    Whereas miners were once highly skilled, many of today’s miners are actually unskilled workers (euphemistically called “multiskilled”) supervised by a highly skilled group of electrical and mechanical engineers.

    There is no effective enforcement of safety regulations in many mines. Mining companies are poisoning our farmlands and aquifers with no interference from compliant governments.

    To me, as an observer of these changes, the saddest thing has been the destruction of community and family life in what were previously vibrant and inclusive mining communities.

    The corruption of the political process has been made easier by the reduction in the political skills base of miners.

    State governments have avoided their responsibilities and have allowed the market to set every aspect of our cultural and societal development….

    The question we also need to ask is how do we up-skill unskilled workers?

  127. Johno

    Sarcasm Freethinker

  128. Kevin Arnold

    I have lived and worked in the coal mining areas of the Hunter Valley for most of my 75 years. I have also seen at least 3 downturns in the industry in that time. However, to ignore that the coal industry is on its last legs is to ignore reality. The Adani mine will not produce many jobs and if it produces as much coal as it says it will , it will be competing with the established mines in the Hunter. These mines are mainly small seams and more expensive to run. They do have the advantage of being close to a port. This advantage will be eliminated if the proposed use of automation is used on the transport to the Queensland ports. Jobs created at Adani will most certainly be significantly less than those lost in other mining areas. The loss will be even greater because these areas were developed around mining and the Adani mine will never do this as it’s intentions are automation and fifo employees. The ecological argument speaks for itself.

  129. Trish Corry

    As I have said to other commenters this is not just about Adani, but about the movement towards a post coal Australia and how do we approach projected unemployment as we progress there. This major part of the article is missed by almost everyone. The focus on climate change as responses only reinforces to me that workers are considered as an accidental casualty and are secondary. I see the worker as the primary focus.. The area where Adani is built, the communities were built around mining as well. From my point of view there is an absolute lack of sensitivity or willingness to try to understand what threats are posed to these communities as more and more advocacy around shutting down mining develops and the sense of urgency heightens. Some areas already have over 20% unemployment. Anti Adani is the beginning, not the end. Adani is simply the current movement. My hope was to generate discussion about jobs, perhaps some empathy towards workers and unemployed and maybe even advocacy around pushing for alternatives for the Adani mine region; and obviously discussion and thought about a shift in unemployment strategy to preventative unemployment; but this clearly is the wrong platform.

  130. Freethinker

    Trish,people understand what you are saying but you cannot create jobs in one are at the cost of creating unemployment in another one, furthermore the problems with the environment.
    I have written some posts with solutions much better than the coal mine but you do not take them as a replacement.
    I cannot exchange more ideas if it will be one side only on the topic.

  131. Trish Corry

    I have not dismissed any of your ideas. I’m pretty sure last night I asked you for more info and said I liked them. You were the ONLY one who engaged in preventative options for unemployment. I can’t understand why you think I dismissed your ideas.

  132. Kaye Lee

    Anti Adani is not the beginning. There were 46,000 mining jobs lost between the 2013 and 2015 financial years, no doubt many more since. I don’t mean spuriously promised jobs. As I have pointed out before, NO-ONE has lost a job through the anti-Adani campaign. You can’t lose a job you don’t have.

    Coal mining is a minor employer and there are many industries, many locations, suffering through our rapidly changing employment landscape.

    It continues to astonish me that people who are in furious agreement can continue arguing. Climate change is real and requires urgent action – we all agree. The employment landscape is changing in many areas – we all agree. We need to provide opportunity and support for all members of society – we all agree.

    PS I know I am in the argument….I just don’t understand why. We are on the same team.

  133. Freethinker

    Trish, was my impression because I did not have any comments about my posts:
    Freethinker July 20, 2017 at 11:28 am
    and
    Freethinker July 20, 2017 at 12:34 pm

    But is OK I do not expect that you so much free time like I have. sorry this method of communications without see faces is not the best one for me.
    All good.

  134. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    Matters Not. “The again there’s OTMP who has the distinction of contributing nothing but historical ‘spelling’.” Like it or not headmaster, ‘majour’ is still correctly spelt…even though you obviously subscribe to the prescriptive school of linguistics. Yet again you are displaying your narrow minded ignorance and propensity to troll. Further, shouldn’t your post read ‘Then again…’ not ‘The again…’? Sorry couldn’t resist exposing your hypocracy – think of it as a dose of your own medicine.

  135. Trish Corry

    Kaye you simply do not understand. You have no desire to understand. It seems to me if you can’t push your own barrow on Adani, you will just ridicule any other view. The patronising approach you took with the air quotes ridiculing narrative and theming to understand a serious social response, and your ridicule at a serious strategic shift to preventative unemployment, by dismissing it and asking for ideas, was mind blowing, considering you keep portraying yourself as someone who cares about workers and the unemployed.

    Instead you asked for ideas, as if I didn’t present one! Do you understand the significance a shift to preventative unemployment is strategies would bring? How that changes the way we think about the unemployed and the solutions put forward?

    If you want to know why I keep defending this argument or arguing as you put it, is we are not in agreement. The comments to date show that. Your attitude to this topic demonstrates that. Your comment right here diminishing the significance of mining as if it does not have any impact on work or the economy also demonstrates that. It also shows you lack an understanding of how the concentration of this industry impact severely on local communities and families. Your attitude that this is not worth speaking up about but ridiculing serious attempts to highlight this issue, also demonstrate that. I won’t even go there with the low brow intellectual bashing of mocking my writing style and your quips about erudition and wordiness not valued by the unemployed. Well I bet they’d value preventative unemployment strategies over curative ones! There’s an idea! I won’t have you nor others who come to your defence try to shame me for my writing style or contribution. Trolls I expect. Fellow authors? No. And anyone who tries to say I’ve taken you the wrong way, I upfront reject.

    The excuses you make like the ones above, about why we can’t talk about workers in these regions, frankly makes me sick. I also guess if missed opportunities are insignificant, we seriously should not be concerned about the education system excluding people either. 🙄 Anti Adani is the beginning of the serious activism push to shut down mining. I am not sure why I would need to explain that.

  136. Trish Corry

    Sorry, Free I have a huge work load ATM and also have been decidedly stupid by challenging myself to writing seven posts a week. If I had a weeks holiday I’d be able to write some in advance. I’ve done four and five but I will get to seven! To your question today I have not had time to read up on more Agrarian economics. I do want to impress it is an area of interest to me.

  137. Matters Not

    Must admit, this discussion is getting ridiculous, in the extreme. TC look at your assertions:

    you simply do not understand … have no desire to understand … will just ridicule any other view … patronising approach

    Really? Somewhat over the top? I though that your (sociological) ‘theories’ were all about a reluctance to ascribe ‘meaning’ to another ‘actor’ in any definitive way

    As for OTMP and alternative spelling, one might choose to note.

    Sorry couldn’t resist exposing your **hypocracy** – think of it as a dose of your own medicine

    No doubt, the self acclaimed, modern day Shakespeare can justify the alternative spelling of hypocrisy. But probably not.

  138. Harquebus

    Trish
    Jobs consume precious resources and cause pollution. Perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time writing.
    No jobs on a dead planet and it is those with attitudes like yours that are killing it.

    “Even as a waste disposal site, the world is finite.” — William R. Catton Jr.

  139. Trish Corry

    I absolutely stand by my comments MN. I don’t give a stuff if people want to defend Kaye Lees dismissive and patronising comments, nor ones that mock my writing style. I’ll damn well defend myself. No one else would get away with such mockery if it was towards her. The lowness of the debate in a thread about a serious topic such as projected unemployment because of a serious industrial transition and what can be done about it is a far cry from what I ever expected when I wrote this piece. I always expect the worst when I publish here because I’m used to damning responses anyway. But in this case I am very disappointed.

  140. Trish Corry

    Lol H. Are you seriously suggesting I don’t read enough? Your argument on this to me is very unclear. Do you advocate we have as few jobs as possible to protect the environment? Is that your view? If so how does that work from an economic point of view?

  141. Trish Corry

    Oh I missed that last bit. You misrepresent me. I’m not anti climate change, nor am I pro mining. My dig at the movement is because of the lack of consideration or empathy for massive amounts of people who will lose their jobs. Workers are invisible in the climate change debate.

  142. Matters Not

    Harquebus, you really are a pain in the arse.. Have you ever considered your own advice above – which was less time writing.

    Such a waste of time and effort. But at least it ‘*keeps you off the streets**? (I hope.) LOL.

  143. Matters Not

    TC look at your last response:

    absolutely stand by … dismissive and patronising comments … ones that mock my writing style … No one else would get away with such mockery if it was towards her … always expect the worst when I publish here …

    I think there might be the odd chip on a shoulder here.

    Settle down!

    As a matter of interest, re your university studies. How much, by correspondence and how much by face-to-face – where red-hot heat is applied?

  144. Roswell

    Trish
    Jobs consume precious resources and cause pollution. Perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time writing.
    No jobs on a dead planet and it is those with attitudes like yours that are killing it.

    Quite possibly the most ridiculous comment I’ve ever seen.

    What comes next? That I’m killing the planet too because I called your comment ridiculous?

  145. Trish Corry

    I seriously don’t think so. I’m pretty sure I have a right to say what I say, considering the difference in treatment towards me by so many here compared to others who publish, over a long period of time. Pointing out the facts isn’t over reacting. Believe me, I’m not the only one who notices. I’m certainly not paranoid, nor am I over reacting. I’ll ignore things a lot of the time. Sometimes I don’t even comment on my articles anymore. But I’ll defend myself when I feel I should and I will continue writing, regardless of the vocal sentiment. Thanks.

  146. Trish Corry

    My personal life is none of your business MN.

  147. Harquebus

    Roswell
    Your ignorance is showing.

  148. Matters Not

    Yes TC, keep adding another chip to your shoulder.

    As I have said on any number of occasions, I have absolutely no control over the meaning a reader gives to my words. That TC implies I have an interest in her personal life is hilarious.

    Please. I have enough problems of my own without adding to …

    I really wish that people would concentrate on ideas not personalities. Please use pseudonymous.

  149. Trish Corry

    You literally asked about my personal study life. 🙇‍♀️🔨 I’m out. Night.

  150. Roswell

    Harquebus, I don’t know what’s worse; your arrogance or your memory.

    Only a few months ago you were congratulating me for doing what I can in my life to mitigate climate change. And yet today I’m ignorant.

    I think Matters Not is right. You’re writing too much. You’ve picked the wrong audience. We’re sick of you.

  151. Matters Not

    literally asked about my personal study life

    My apologies for invading your privacy. (Shakes head – and laughs loudly.)

  152. Kaye Lee

    Holy shit Batman.

    Backs away slowly.

  153. Harquebus

    Roswell
    I have been told that you are a smart man. Your response to my “simple” statement does not support that claim. Anyone with an understanding of the relationships between energy, the economy and the environment would not have made the comment that you did.

  154. Roswell

    WTF?

    Goodnight. I can’t be bothered.

  155. Harquebus

    And that, says it all.

  156. Keith

    Trish

    Unemployment is a terrible situation. Becoming unemployed or being under employed is also a tragedy for vast numbers of people.

    The other side of the coin in relation to climate change:

    People’s cars or houses being destroyed by flooding or wildfire.
    Small businesses being destroyed,workers losing employment through the destruction of those businesses by extreme events.
    Worse for communities and families where people are killed by extreme conditions.
    People dying, or just being able to hang onto their lives through going through famine.
    The crops of subsistence farmers being destroyed, some farmers committing suicide (India).
    People wondering whether water will be available virtually in the short term of maybe a week or month ( examples Brazil, Mexico, Bolivia, India )

    In Australia farmers are hard up against re-financing their properties after super floods.

    Those situations are happening on a regular basis.

    In your series of articles, and comments you have suggested that climate change activists are insensitive to the unemployed.

    It has been activists who have fought against asbestos mining in the past, and the tobacco companies for the well being of millions.

    We have a common enemy, those who hold neo conservative views who couldn’t give a damm provided their profits are increasing.

    When Howard was PM, there was an article in a Liberal Party magazine about conspicuous conscience. The article railed against allowing any emotional views to be countenanced in hard hitting decisions. Examples being the cruel policies towards asylum seekers, the disastrous handling of Centrelink clients being charged debts they had not accrued; and then, with the situation being allowed to fester. The 2014 Budget also being a prime example.

    In taking a sociological view I believe you need to dig deeper.

  157. Trish Corry

    We have a common enemy, those who hold neo conservative views who couldn’t give a damm provided their profits are increasing.

    No kidding and guess what the LNP LOVE? An over supply of labour. It works in their favour to destroy a fair IR system. It works in their favour to drive down wages. It works in their favour to bring in foreign workers as locals fight against the down turn in wages.
    Do you think preventative unemployment strategies are important now as we transition towards eradicating one of our major industries and associated industries?

    Maybe just try and see how you focus on climate change and the damage that it will bring – that I see no action on climate change AND the eradication of major industries in acting on climate change – will be absolute devastation for the working class of the working class are not addressed now. A proper transition plan and discussion of displaced workers should have started ten years ago.

    So I’m quite aware who the enemy is. I wonder if others do.

    In your comment about a sociological view, I hope you agree that an exploration of lack of emotion in decision making should be a study of its own and putting too many ideas in one article would just cause confusion.

    I would argue that climate change activist are certainly adopting Howard’s view and showing a lack of emotion towards future displaced workers. That is certainly a central theme of this and associated articles by me.

  158. Freethinker

    I am disappointed, we are about 20 bloggers in this debate that can be constructive, interesting and educative and instead of “playing the ball they are playing the man”
    My english capacity is not the best but even “reading between the lines” I can see that Trish concern is that we cannot address one issue only and we have to look into the two issues to make any progress.
    Why people cannot join the discussion and come with ideas in how we can produce employment in sustainable activities?
    Back to you guys

  159. Trish Corry

    Thank you Freethinker. Whether we act or don’t act on CC the poor and working class are the losers if this is not done right. If people do decide to put forward ideas, please read the second half of the article as it is very important in how we look at transitioning workers and unemployed.

  160. helvityni

    Freethinker, grown up (?) people hanging around here till midnight and later, bickering about who’s the brightest, who can write best in their mother tongue…boooring….

    If Trish or any other commentator here is not to your liking, move on…

  161. Freethinker

    helvityni, are serious with your comment, tongue in cheek or sarcastic?

    I hope that tongue in cheek……..

  162. Keith

    My underlying message is quite clear unemployment is the pits.

    But, the impacts on innocent people in relation to climate change is also the pits. Some forms of employment are deadly; but, it is not the workers who are to blame.

    Do nothing about climate change and ultimately we are all stuffed. Currently, we are stealing the future from young people and those to be born.

    Freethinker
    Suggestions have been made in relation to where employment might be created. The renewable energy industry has been stymied by the schizophrenic LNP, it is getting beyond being a sunrise industry and the LNP are still pushing for technologies that are becoming redundant. Tony Seba has a number of film clips discussing how old technologies are quickly overtaken by new…horse and buggy to car, then later brick mobile phones to the small easily pocketed phones having a huge capacity. Currently,robots are being trialled to direct traffic where road works are taking place, robotics are entering the work place, but nothing is being done to assess the damage they will do to employment.

    Bob Hawke when he attained the position of Prime Minister held an Economic Summit which was great success. Under present circumstances that would be a great idea; though, it cuts across the extreme secrecy of the Abbott gang, and the current secrecy displayed by the present Turnbull government. The LNP would view it as just being a talk fest; but if the LNP had the capacity to create a non stacked Summit to discuss matters of great concern with the inclusion of experts and public then some progress could be made.

    Just taking short political term views on climate change and employment will resolve nothing.

    PS LNP being Schizophrenic on the basis of not knowing whether they are liberal or conservative.

  163. Kaye Lee

    Keith,

    Turnbull already did that.

    Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull is hosting business, union and community leaders for a mini summit in Canberra on the economy including welfare peak body ACOSS.

    Attending the Canberra mini summit on Thursday was Business Council of Australia President, Catherine Livingstone, and CEO Jennifer Westacott, Australian Council of Trade Unions Secretary, Dave ­Oliver, Australian Council of ­Social Services CEO Cassandra Goldie, Australian Chamber of Commerce and Indus­try CEO, Kate Carnell, Australian Industry Group CEO, Innes Willox,­ ­and Australian Youth Affairs Coalition National Director, Leo Fieldgrass.

    ACOSS Deputy CEO, Tessa-Boyd Caine, said the welfare peak body was heartened by the Prime Minister’s indication of more inclusive consultations on economic reform.

    “We really value his comments about consensus and a community-focused process,” Caine told AAP.

    https://probonoaustralia.com.au/news/2015/10/nfp-voice-included-in-pms-mini-canberra-summit/

    This government is not interested in expert advice as witnessed by Turnbull’s captain’s pick to create Dutton’s superportfolio despite two reviews recommending against the idea.

  164. Harquebus

    “The IPCC forecasts also ignored feedbacks, and research shows that just 3 of these will add another 2.5°C of warming by 2100, bringing the total to more than 6.5°C (or nearly 12°F). At this point, we’re talking about trying to live on an essentially alien planet.”
    https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/07/19/our-aversion-doom-and-gloom-dooming-us

    Let’s not worry about this. None of us will be here anyway. Continue with business as usual, create more jobs, consume as much of diminishing resources as fast as we can, increase the pollution that is already poisoning us and our environment and seal humanity’s fate once and for all. All to satisfy our yearning to live the good life. How “bright” is that?

    “Boooring…” and “can’t be bothered”? Apathetic.

  165. Keith

    Kaye

    Thanks for your reply and reference.
    I think what you described was a shadow of what Bob Hawke had completed.

    It has been very disappointing that the Finkle Report is not acceptable to the extreme right of the LNP, it might be an indication of how the mini-summit you referenced progresses if it suggests slightly liberal views.

  166. Kaye Lee

    I agree it was a pale comparison. There have been so many reviews and so much good advice ignored. Negative gearing and capital gains tax changes to help deliver affordable housing for starters. They talk about creating jobs as they slash the public service and outsource services. They talk about youth unemployment as they raise the pension age to 70. They even imported the paper for our ballot papers and gave the contract to make our ADF dress uniforms to China.

  167. helvityni

    Kaye,

    Can’t say I’m impressed with Kate Carnell.

    Re your last paragraph, I believe even Mal’s own Ministers were against giving Dutton so much (too much) power…

    Abbott’s silly captain’s pick pales to insignificance when compared to this.

  168. Kaye Lee

    Kate Carnell is a waste of space.

  169. Roswell

    Harquebus, when I said “I can’t be bothered” I actually meant that I can’t be bothered talking to you. Your arrogance asserted that because I can’t be bothered engaging with you it meant that I can’t be bothered with what’s happening to the planet.

    It’s like asserting that because I’m not bothered with talking to the neighbour’s young son about chewing bubble gum means that I don’t care about dental health.

    The way you connect dots is in a word, strange. The assumptions you make are in a word, weird.

    I’m not surprised that people have given up engaging with you.

  170. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    matters not. go back to ur primary school office u unenlightened self engrandising moronic troll.

  171. nurses1968

    Kate Carnell is a former Liberal Party politician, who served as the third Chief Minister of the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) from 1995 to 2000.she was an absolute dead loss then and has just progressively got worse {if that was possible]

  172. diannaart

    @ Keith

    Does anyone on the far right of the LNP ever read anything from an informed and educated source? There is much room for existing coal mining to continue for some years yet within the guidelines provided by Finkel.

    @ Trish

    Do you agree with the continuation of existing coal mining as outlined in the Finkel report? If you have already given your analysis then I apologise for my impertinence, I must’ve missed your critique.

  173. Trish Corry

    I agree with a serious planned transition away from mining. I’m on morning tea. I don’t have the Finkel report in front of me. I have linked Labor and Greens transition plans in the article and I have an issue with both as discussed in the article.

  174. diannaart

    Trish

    I don’t expect you to drop everything, I simply wondered how much consideration you have given to the Finkel report. I am already well aware of your opinion on Federal Labor or the Greens’ transition plans.

    Given you prefer a slow transition, perhaps the Finkel report would give more strength to your argument?

  175. Keith

    helvityni

    Kate Carnell subscribes to a neo-conservative political view.

    The Commondreams reference provided by Harquebus is a good summation of where we are at if a business as usual prevails. Though, don’t expect things to improve with climate in the future, we are at a stage where we can inhibit worse results if strong action is taken now.

    The graph from this reference is very scary;

    https://robertscribbler.com/2017/07/19/global-sea-ice-coverage-has-fallen-off-a-cliff-impacts-likely-to-be-wide-ranging/

    That graph:

    https://robertscribbler.com/2017/07/19/global-sea-ice-coverage-has-fallen-off-a-cliff-impacts-likely-to-be-wide-ranging/#jp-carousel-15694

    What has been happening in the last few years has been that less sea ice has developed in winter, and less melting has happened during the spring/summer period, a kind of offset. We will know the result in September when ice begins re developing. But, right now the results are far from good, I’ve been watching this process for a number of years and hope my view is wrong.

  176. nurses1968

    I think the reason she keeps being gifted with positions is pretty damned obvious {to me anyway} The LNP look after their own, and the bigger the dunderhead the more likely you are to get plenty of gigs. Downer, Mirrabella, Carnell, Hockey etc the list would fill up a few pages.
    I wouldn’t mind too much if they were sent of to Timbuktu as Ambassadors but they end up in places where they cause the most damage

  177. Keith

    Trish
    I think the Finkle Report is more of a political document than a scientific one, it provides an avenue that allows for all parties to save face. I used it as an example of how we cannot expect much sense from a dysfunctional LNP.

  178. Trish Corry

    I’m quite perplexed how looking after workers or damn! Even recognising workers as a group seriously affected by the transition as we transition to a post coal world needs a stronger argument, especially put to those who align with the left.

  179. Keith

    diannaart
    In relation to Finkle Report coal power stations are left open; but, given that the LNP is spruiking the horrendously expensive ‘clean coal” power stations economic sense will ensure they do not happen. Giga factories are currently being developed in the USA and China to produce electric cars and batteries, and economies of scale will out compete coal. Already renewable energy is cheaper than coal overseas.

  180. Harquebus

    Roswell
    Noted. Don’t call my comments which, you obviously do not comprehend, “ridiculous”.
    My friends and family would never make such a statement. They now know better.

    My neighbor said to me two days ago, “I have known you for ten years and you have been saying the same thing. Now it is all happening.” My response was, “Yes and it is scaring me.” It should be scaring you too.

    Yesterday I had a conversation about our probable future with a health professional and no, not mental health. A few minutes into the conversation and after I told why she will unemployed she pleaded, “Please, stop. I don’t want to hear anymore.” Not an uncommon response from those that do not know me well.
    My reply was, “You’ve got kids. What are going to do? Wait until it happens?” The look on her face was one that everyone should be wearing.

    I’ll say it again. The environment on which our survival depends can not support the jobs that we have now let alone create new ones. The problem will be how to fairly and humanely support large numbers of unemployed while lowering the population.
    Considering the economic madness controlling the current political landscape, I don’t have a lot of confidence that this will happen. Instead, it will more likely be brutal, unforgiving and bloody.

  181. Kaye Lee

    By 2035, about 68 per cent of existing coal generating plants will have reached 50 years of age, and investors have signalled they’re unlikely to invest in new coal-fired generation.

  182. Trish Corry

    And what’s your point Kaye? That CC activism has played no part in that and they have decided they’ve made their money and it has nothing to do with a shift away from coal?. As someone who keeps finding excuses to not talk about displaced workers, 2035 isn’t really a lot of time to plan for this change is it? Do you think considering this is not far away that preventative unemployment strategies could help?

  183. helvityni

    “I think the Finkel Report is more of a political document than a scientific one, it provides an avenue that allows for all parties to save face.”

    Keith, I tend to agree with your comment, too many compromises, lukewarm….

  184. Keith

    helvityni
    We are seeing the damage done by Abbott when he was Opposition leader in attacking the carbon tax and the revoking it when “PM”.
    Finkel is not a climate scientist, and others on his committee were picked by the LNP. The Finkel Report does not uphold Australia’s promise given to the Paris Accord. But, it did allow for a way to by pass the stupid political stalemate in relation to energy.
    Also, in providing a compact with the Nationals to maintain leadership, Turnbull has sold out Australian citizens.
    Which I believe upholds my view that it would not be possible for Turnbull to provide a meaningful major Summit in relation to anything; ultimately the mad extreme right will determine what happens.

  185. nurses1968

    Trish Corry
    I had an interesting conversation with a local Greens member just yesterday regarding jobs and CC.
    It seems that the immediate solution, and nothing less would do would be the immediate closure of all coal mines and the adoption of MMT with a social wage at a rate comparable with the average weekly wage to replace all Centrelink payments and pensions and any employee or underemployed on an Award wage lower than the average weekly earnings to be subsidised to that level.
    This would also extend to any person employed in any industry that the employee felt was detrimental to the environment
    I did raise your comment about methane and this got the comment that beef and dairy should be phased out but to be run in conjunction with the Government running campaigns to encourage a vegetarian diet and subsidies for those crossing over from meat eaters to vegan.Those in the Beef or Dairy industry displaced by the change would be eligible for the social wage.
    I’m still trying to get my head around it 😀

  186. Kaye Lee

    “As someone who keeps finding excuses to not talk about displaced workers,”

    I dispute that statement

    July 19, 2017 at 8:57 am

    four other industries each created more jobs than were lost in the resource sector over that period: health, education, professional services and accommodation and food services. Commonwealth Government employment projections suggest that employment growth for the remainder of the decade will come overwhelmingly from the services sector.

    July 19, 2017 at 9:48 am

    Job suggestions

    Mine rehabilitation
    Renewable energy
    Infrastructure construction
    Health
    Education
    Food and accommodation
    Retail
    Construction of affordable housing
    Agriculture
    Niche manufacturing
    Tourism
    Transport
    Park rangers
    Arts and recreation
    Natural disaster mitigation works

    July 19, 2017 at 8:18 pm

    We need to value the role carers and volunteers play too. Increasing the age pension age to 70 is madness.

    July 19, 2017 at 9:03 pm

    We could have some sort of body that combines business representatives, unions, and educators to advise on training for future employment needs.

    We could reinstate the Commonwealth Employment Service which actually DID find people work.

    We could put together a mobile agrarian workforce and the transport to take them where they are needed to assist farmers in harvest or fencing or whatever.

    July 20, 2017 at 10:03 pm

    Climate change is real and requires urgent action – we all agree. The employment landscape is changing in many areas – we all agree. We need to provide opportunity and support for all members of society – we all agree.

    July 21, 2017 at 10:12 am

    They talk about creating jobs as they slash the public service and outsource services. They talk about youth unemployment as they raise the pension age to 70. They even imported the paper for our ballot papers and gave the contract to make our ADF dress uniforms to China.

  187. Harquebus

    Trish and Kaye
    You are both as bad as each other. Neither of you has a clue as to the true nature of our predicament nor how to mitigate the horrible outcome we are about to endure. It is no wonder nothing constructive is ensuing with bad examples that you are both setting.

    Check this 3 min video out and then ask yourselves, can it continue?

    For Civilization: This Is Necessary (Life Feeds On Life)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6gzIrV5Ae0

    “No matter how many grounded studies scientists do to reveal the catastrophic effects of our actions to the living systems of the planet, we still all generally behave as if things were normal.”
    “Do the math. If we go on, we will pretty much pull the bio-carpet beneath us and eventually cause our own extinction.”
    “”Biological annihilation” is life disappearing, FOR ALL TIME. How could that not seriously matter to the living?”
    http://www.rappler.com/science-nature/ideas/science-solitaire/176161-biodiversity-biological-annihilation-extinction

  188. diannaart

    @ Jimhaz

    Corry can never get over her partisanship, her allegiance to the ALP

    This is self evident, although I believe (and Trish can correct me on this) her allegiance is closer to QLD ALP rather than federal.

    I disagree that TC’s article is a crock of shit as you put it. Her work is painstaking but limited by a blinkered approach to comments by people unless they dovetail completely with TC’s POV. The claims made about, yours truly, Kaye Lee and others are simply nonsense – if we did not care, we would not be here.

    I do not see why we cannot work on climate warming AND future-proof jobs at the same time. To invoke an old cliché, you can’t put the cart before the horse; the environment (political as well as ecological) has to be prepared for employment.

    As I am not an author, I expect to be blocked, c’est la vie.

  189. jimhaz

    One cannot really talk in any meaningful sense about currently non-existent coal mining jobs until we look at the holistic picture of what technology coupled with overpopulation and the control of the world by the rich is doing. I see no difference between coal jobs and any other trad job.

    I mean Tree planting. Modern machine with only a few poeple employed could plant a million trees a year.

    https://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/how-do-you-plant-1-billion-trees-year-drones-course.html

  190. jimhaz

    Sorry Diannaart. I deleted that comment.. Post Friday lunch ignorant posting.

  191. Trish Corry

    Dianna and Jim a tad of an over reaction. However, it’s pretty amazing if I have an issue with Kaye, just like clockwork a few come out with the personal questions about my motivation or personal ridicule. It’s been so consistent for years. It can definitely be your view that workers being considered as a primary issue as we transition to post coal is a crock of shit, you can also think that preventative unemployment strategies are a crock of shit. But to say I believe in these things because I’m labor is just silly. Last time I looked Labor supports the current curative approach to unemployment and I do say in my article their transition plan needs more work. Maybe stop taking offence at how the narrative is themed and concentrate on the important part of the article which is about how to move forward in this transition.

    “I do not see why we cannot work on climate warming AND future-proof jobs at the same time.”

    Just a heads up-the article is about just that. That is if you take the time to read beyond the first half of the article.

  192. Trish Corry

    Kaye I have deleted our last discussion. Pls have a think about what I asked. Thanks.

  193. diannaart

    I disagreed with Jimhaz’s post lunch comment which is now gone so nothing is making any sense.

    What part of “I agree we need to focus on jobs as we transition to sustainable tech” are you not getting?

    Where I disagree is relying on obsolete technology, this is not long term for workers.

    That’s all that divides us Trish.

  194. Trish Corry

    What I’m not getting is my article is about exactly that yet apparently it is a load of crap. And I don’t see the light because I’m Labor. Yet I just wrote about it. It’s confusing if one assumes you read the article. It’s as if I wrote an article about fish and you said I don’t know why liking fish is such a problem. Trish hates fish cos she is Labor. That’s where my confusion lies with your comments Dianna.

  195. Harquebus

    Look what popped up in my daily reads.

    “Robots are displacing highly skilled technical workers in the smart phone industry in China. Paying workers there shit wages is not enough, China says, because American automated manufacturing may threaten China’s manufacturing dominance. A.I. robots are faster, better and smarter than humans who make nothing.”
    https://lokisrevengeblog.wordpress.com/2017/07/20/robots-are-taking-jobs-now/

  196. diannaart

    Apologies for being so confusing – I try very hard to be precise and clear.

    People can be members of the Labor party and see different solutions to a problem.

    People can be both climate activists and support job creation.

    BTW

    I know you will take this personally, but it is not intended as such… that “fish analogy” does not apply to what I have been saying.

  197. Trish Corry

    Ok so explain why the article is crap. It frames the debate to demonstrate that workers are invisible. It then makes the point that the narrative must change to bring workers to the centre. It then poses a dramatic shift to preventative unemployment strategies. You appear to be saying that I’m not agreeing with what I wrote and my affiliation with Labor is the problem. The problem is from my view, the absence of the worker in the political and activism narrative. Imagine a narrative that actually spoke about displaced workers. Do you think this would really create an urgency to generate alternative solutions and staged shutdowns, reskilling and ensuring coal areas are revitalised with new industries?

  198. diannaart

    I will repeat myself – I did not agree with Jamhaz that your article was crap:

    diannaart July 21, 2017 at 3:25 pm

    @ Jimhaz ….

    I disagree that TC’s article is a crock of shit as you put it. Her work is painstaking but limited by a blinkered approach to comments by people unless they dovetail completely with TC’s POV….

    I NEVER SAID YOUR WORK IS CRAP

  199. Keith

    I won’t respond any longer as the message I’m getting is that you need to be sensitive to one issue, but not others.
    We are all different and have different priorities, those other matters also revolve around social justice.

    Unemployment is something I have written about often from the time Howard was PM, expressing disgust about how the unemployed have been treated by the LNP.

  200. Trish Corry

    I’m unsure how you get that message. If you have written about unemployment since Howard, surely you understand the issue I put forward that a poorly handled transition will cause devastation to workers in the hands of the LNP, particularly with massive job losses and over supply of labour projected if something isn’t done soon.

  201. Trish Corry

    Ok thx for the clarification Dianna. Sorry about that, it’s been a long day/week. I don’t see my comments as blinkered. I can explain in depth my position time and time again. Just because I disagree with the small yet vocal crowd here, does not mean my arguments aren’t solid. I also never Ever demand anyone accepts my point of view. However I will defend my arguments as presented in the article. I would not write something if I was unable to defend it. I also won’t just leave comments that misrepresent the article and ones that especially misrepresent me as a person. I will respond to them. Although my political point of view shapes my thinking, as it does most people, unless it’s an obvious blog about Bill Shorten or something, nothing I write is motivated by paying a membership fee to Labor every year. My personal areas of research interest are welfare, unemployment, industrial relations, women and women in higher education well before I became involved in joining labor. I think these themes are evident in my articles. The accusation about Labor is ridiculous.

  202. helvityni

    Keith
    July 21, 2017 at 12:39 pm

    Again, I totally agree with your post, Fizza did his best to get brownie points when in Europe for G20, his spiel is different on home ground ; Fizza and Finkel do not give me much hope when it comes to dealing with CC….

  203. Kaye Lee

    I disagree that the worker has been absent from the narrative. They bleat on endlessly about jobs, jobs, jobs. They quote figures about the number of jobs created last month. They produce all sorts of reports like the Science and Innovation paper. But their actions belie their words.

    They pretend that the proposed company tax cut is all about jobs despite investors time and again stating the problem is a lack of demand. The undermining of unions has resulted in stagnant wages and a rise in insecure employment. The cuts to penalty rates and family payments have seen a drop in income to low income families, particularly affecting women and young people. Newstart payments have fallen so far behind the rise in cost of living that they condemn people to abject poverty. The demise of TAFE and the increasing cost of tertiary education has led to skills shortages and made further education unattainable for many. Privatisation and outsourcing has seen the loss of many jobs. Free trade and the removal of tariffs have put many industries in peril from cheaper goods from overseas markets who have the advantage of cheap labour and economies of scale. Entry level jobs are disappearing. The aged are being asked to work longer. Whilst the temporary tax on high income earners and the temporary freeze on politicians’ salaries have both been abolished, the freeze on the promised increase to the Superannuation Guarantee has been extended and the proposed increase in the tax free threshold has been forgotten. They will give hundreds of billions to foreign arms manufacturers to perhaps create a thousand jobs in a decade or so but would not support an automotive industry that could have been incentivised to develop the efficient cars of the future. Their attitude to renewable energy has lost us billions of dollars in new investment and thousands of jobs as we had the chance to be a world leader in this growing industry.

    Any planning for future jobs must include the reality that automation is changing the nature of employment and that sustainability must be a crucial focus in our collective endeavours and individual lives.

  204. Michael Taylor

    Any planning for future jobs must include the reality that automation is changing the nature of employment and that sustainability must be a crucial focus in our collective endeavours and individual lives.

    Spot on, Kaye.

    When I was on panels assessing tender submissions in the Gillard Government these (particularly the second point) were criteria that needed to be addressed. I’m speculating that they are not bothered about anymore.

  205. Terry2

    Nicely put, Kaye .

    Alan Austain in Crikey noted the increasing burden of tax on workers’ salaries as corporate taxes continue to diminish. He said, in part :

    While company tax collections are declining, taxes on workers’ wages are increasing. In 2015, tax receipts from wage and salary earners were $177.0 billion, or 50.4% of total tax receipts. In 2017, tax receipts from wage and salary earners were up to $194.0 billion, or 51.5% of total tax receipts.
    Company tax declined from 19.4% to 18.0%.

  206. Trish Corry

    Kaye, it seems to me you are simply trying to deflect that climate change activists do not talk about jobs as they advocate to shut down coal. It seems that you are purposely trying to diminish this argument, despite the themes of the narrative presented in the article, and you are trying to push the blame on something else. This is consistent with the narrative around climate change when jobs are raised.

    This is actually a sub-theme of dehumanising, where the narrative speaks to other factors making coal dead anyway, automation or the fact that other countries are not buying coal – it is a dead product. Some activist argue that it is up to the Union to transition the worker out. The argument is that Climate change activism has played no part in the move towards shutting down coal but other factors. Which makes the anti-Adani movement alone imaginary. It is not the activists concern. Therefore, it is simply the activists concern to ensure coal shuts down.

    You have included quite a number of reasons to deflect away from climate change action as the push for coal worker to be displaced. However, it is not clear who “they” are in your argument. Do you refer to “They” as the climate change activists themselves? or politicians?

    In addition, your inclusion of all the other threats to the working class are put to dismiss that mining workers are just another victim of change that affects all workers anyway, is largely dismissive of an active push – by activists to displace workers. Activists in all the areas above, rally against the changes you list, they do not rally against the the closure of mines as a reason to rally around the worker (see the stigmatisation of coal workers included in the article).

  207. Trish Corry

    I have collected narrative for almost a year. I think any observer could go across any platform that is observable on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Newspaper Forums and also listen to discussions on panels on television like Qanda, that it is very evident that those in the push to shut down coal, are not advocating strongly and pushing to ensure that the thousands of displaced workers end up with meaningful work. They are not holding serious discussions how the concentrations of these workers in local economies won’t severely impact on local economies and communities.

    The only narrative around jobs, is that the reason for Adani is jobs. However, for example, even when Matt Canavan brought this up on Qanda, he was ridiculed and scoffed at by the panel and the audience. No one saw this as an urgent issue that if the mine is ceased, what can be done with the workers. The pie in the sky excuse of ‘it would be better to have renewables’ ensued. However see the narrative about assumptions detailed in the article. This requires a more serious discussion, before mines can just be shut down.

    No one is saying that other factors are not an issue for all workers. However, what you fail to include is there is not a movement advocating to make all businesses automated. It is not an active push by other humans, infact other humans rally against automation to protect the working class. Hardly apples and apples.

    Automation is an innovative externality, that Governments can respond to and unions and the public can respond to. For example, Gerry Harvey’s push to impose GST on items purchased outside of Australia as the automation of online shopping impacts on his business. Government paid campaigns to buy local. Unions and Individual and other groups can boycott and protest supermarket stores which automate checkouts instead of employing workers. Some supermarkets can use this as a point of difference to attract more customers who do not like automation.
    However, whilst automation is a consideration in mining, Governments, working with unions, can impose regulations on X amount of workers.

    Climate change activism seeks to shut down entire mines. There will be no automation, as there will no mine. There will be no workers as there will be no mine. There will be no workers in supply industries as they will also cease supplying the mine.

  208. Trish Corry

    The framing of mining as a ‘minor employer” or not a significant contributor to revenue is also a consistent theme of dismissal of the workers who will be displaced.

    As Nurse said the other day, she spoke with a Greens member and they said that they need to shut down all coal. They also agreed with what I have included before about beef farming and he agreed and said that beef and dairy farming also should be eradicated.

    I wonder if those who are dismissing the worker now, will be as harsh to the farm worker? Time will tell when this push arrives. It is said that Get Up has recruited social media activists from over seas to shut down Adani. If this is true, will they also do this to shut down beef farming?

    The other question never posed by the activists who dismiss climate change activism as a push to shut down mines, is how much automation is in the renewables industry? Why is the assumption that renewables are full of manual labour and not automated processes?

    This narrative about jobs, is always in response to mining jobs lost through mines being shut down – in exchange that renewables will solve that issue. See the narrative assumptions of Automatic transition and assumption of geographic transition in the article.

    It is not the first point, nor a major point of concern for activists.

    I wonder why there is not a similar concern for workers displaced in mining through automation, rather than a dismissal of the fact that this this is occurring anyway, so workers are irrelevant?

    Your opening statement the worker is not dismissed is weak and uses the narratives of dehumanisation in blaming other factors, automatic transition and automatic geographic transition as your key points. Your points actually strengthen the argument that the worker is dismissed. That they are invisible.

    I think yet again another post to “prove the point wrong that climate change activist do not dismiss the worker” rather than accepting that this change is occurring and is inevitable an engaging in a discussion about the major key point of the article, which is a transition to preventative unemployment, is also quite telling that the worker is actually largely dismissed.

    This speaks to me more about self reflection and rejection of assumptions made about self, when commenters have responded in this manner, rather than genuine concern for the worker. Because, if CC activists did have genuine concern for the worker, they would see the preventative unemployment strategy discussed in the article, a serious strategy to achieve both the eradication of mining AND prevent unemployment for workers. Sadly, this section of the article has been largely ignored by all and sundry except for Free thinker.

    Sorry for the long post, but you raised quite a few points in yours.

  209. Terry2

    Trish

    Just to correct one point when Matt Canavan brought this up on Qanda, he was ridiculed

    Canavan’s statement was that the Adani Mine would provide direct ongoing employment for 16000 people : so it was more an incredulous reaction form panel and audience rather than ridicule.

  210. Trish Corry

    The points he raised about significant unemployment were ignored and the mine scoffed at as the solution. If workers were important the emphasis would have changed to how renewables and other industries could replace the mine. The stigma is around coal itself and the workers by association. This did not occur as car manufacturing was shut down. There was a lot of emphasis on the worker.

  211. Johno

    To me Harquebus makes sense re (jobs = pollution) but I would like to rephrase this to (many jobs = pollution). To keep this in context as it is not about precious little oz any more but the whole world. There are many industries around the world with a very dubious carbon footprint and pollution record. All these dubious industries employ people so you could say from top to bottom these jobs pollute.

  212. Kaye Lee

    No Trish. I wasn’t doing any of those things. I was trying to look at factors affecting employment.

  213. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    its time to face the facts on Adani. given the turbull governments record of corruption and graft it is inevitable that the $1bill non repayable loan to the con man adani will be made. the only way the people will be able to get this loan back is to invoke the legal principle of odious debt and have the members and politicians of the liberal party repay it personally.

  214. Kaye Lee

    The Queensland government has some incentive programs in place to encourage employers to hire unemployed people

    The Back to Work – Regional Employment Package (Back to Work) is a two-year $150 million initiative designed to give businesses the confidence to employ regional jobseekers and provide an economic boost to regions facing challenging times.

    https://backtowork.initiatives.qld.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/BacktoWorkRegionalGuidelines300617.pdf

    The package has been highly successful in providing employment opportunities for over 4000 new employees across the state. In the Wide Bay Burnett this number is in excess of 800 jobs, with some 500 employers across the region receiving financial support.

    http://www.kcci.asn.au/index.php/component/content/article/1-latest-news/256-back-to-work-regional-emplotment-package

  215. Michael Taylor

    If only the federal government would take their lead, Kaye.

  216. Kaye Lee

    It’s a start Michael but it has not been as widely subscribed as they expected, probably because employers don’t put on new staff unless there is demand, as I alluded to before. If they raised welfare payments, which everyone agrees should happen, it would help to provide the stimulus for small business to hire more people and then perhaps have a flow on effect.

  217. Michael Taylor

    Kaye, I worked for three governments; Howard’s, Rudd’s and Gillard’s. Two of those were into job creation. Guess which two? 😉

    The other had the ideology that job creation meant forcing DSP recipients off their pension and into the workforce. The thought was never entertained that the jobs weren’t available for them in the first place.

  218. Kaye Lee

    The Coalition still adheres to the failed trickle down strategy. Rudd, Gillard and Swan showed the value of stimulating demand by giving the poorest a boost and employing people to build infrastructure (like a real NBN – sigh)

  219. Michael Taylor

    And school halls. And home insulation. And the stimulus package. All these created employment.

  220. Trish Corry

    The second half of my article is all about preventative unemployment Strategies ie job creation. It’s a pity that wasn’t recognised, hell maybe even acknowledged as a valuable contribution in the article, but it hasn’t been the focus of the conversation over the past few days. Instead, the inclusion of strategies was ridiculed and mocked by Kaye. Yet today she presents it as her solution. It’s not as if the article dedicates about 1000 words to the topic or anything and is the definitive conclusion. But for three days we couldn’t talk about that Because Kaye said we needed ideas and we could not talk about strategies or narrative or themes as put in the article. And suddenly just adding this without the acknowledgement that workers will be displaced by the onset of mining and coal fire power station closures. To talk prevention the problem actually needs to be acknowledged, not talked around or over by a select few. Or framed in the current curative reactionary unemployment strategies we have now. My mind is blown. What a wasted thread this one has been. Freethinker excluded.

  221. Michael Taylor

    Perhaps I shouldn’t have commented if my comments are on the wasted ‘list’

  222. Trish Corry

    Well really Michael, considering you were not in those conversations over the last few days, then why would that include you? If you have a read through the comments my comment might make better sense.

  223. Kaye Lee

    I am sorry you feel that way Trish. I think there have been many valuable contributions. You think that I have ignored the second half of the article but that isn’t so. Below are a few responses based on your suggestions.

    “A forecast of job losses in coal areas should enable political parties to develop a blue print for planning.”

    Coal mining currently employs around 20,000 people in Queensland. This has fallen from a highpoint of 30,000 in 2013. There are 2.36 million people in work in Queensland.
    Nationally, coal mining is projected to cut its workforce by 21 percent by November 2020, according to Commonwealth Department of Employment projections.
    In Queensland, all parts of mining (coal, as well as gas and other resources) are projected to fall by 7,400 jobs to 2020.

    ” job creation through Government intervention would be beneficial.”

    The Back to Work – Regional Employment Package (Back to Work) is a two-year $150 million initiative designed to give businesses the confidence to employ regional jobseekers and provide an economic boost to regions facing challenging times.

    “A preventative unemployment strategy would see a Government motivated to intervene to create jobs. Also, invest in skills and career development of new and transitioning workers and incentivize business.”

    We could have some sort of body that combines business representatives, unions, and educators to advise on training for future employment needs.

    Rudd, Gillard and Swan showed the value of stimulating demand by giving the poorest a boost and employing people to build infrastructure

  224. Michael Taylor

    Trish, you did say this:

    What a wasted thread this one has been. Freethinker excluded.

    What am I to assume?

  225. Trish Corry

    I would assume you would assume that I’m talking about the entire thread Michael. Considering I said that preventative unemployment was not the focus over the last few days. I was talking about the thread in general. Why do you think I am just talking about your comment?

  226. Michael Taylor

    Trish, I didn’t say or assume you were talking about me.

    Anyway, I have to go out now.

  227. Trish Corry

    Kaye this has not been a productive thread about unemployment. There is not even a consensus that climate change action will displace workers. This is still disputed. There is also not consensus that discussions about climate change ignore workers. This is still disputed. In fact, it is the basis of most of the conversation over the last few days, including yours. You yourself have made some significant claims that this is not urgent and the problem is other factors anyway, mining is a minor employer anyway, automation is a factor anyway, other areas are losing workers anyway, you can’t lose a job you never had anyway, etc., etc.,

    That isn’t conducive of a conversation that recognises a projected loss of jobs through climate change action, or one that seriously looks at a strategic shift of preventing unemployment.

    I cannot see how people arguing climate change action is not a significant factor. The transition is already here.

    Whether people only care about cleaner energy, or whether they care about displaced workers and damage to certain local economies, and what to actively participate in that, is the point of difference.

    As Nurse pointed out:
    I had an interesting conversation with a local Greens member just yesterday regarding jobs and CC.
    It seems that the immediate solution, and nothing less would do would be the immediate closure of all coal mines” and

    that beef and dairy should be phased out but to be run in conjunction with the Government running campaigns to encourage a vegetarian diet and subsidies for those crossing over from meat eaters to vegan.

    Anti-Adani is the beginning, not the end. The next 20 years will make or break workers and communities if not handled right.

    If the future of displaced workers and what to do about them occurred a few days ago, when the article was published, maybe I may not see this as a wasted thread.

    I am not delusional – Freethinker also pointed out:
    I am disappointed, we are about 20 bloggers in this debate that can be constructive, interesting and educative and instead of “playing the ball they are playing the man”
    My english capacity is not the best but even “reading between the lines” I can see that Trish concern is that we cannot address one issue only and we have to look into the two issues to make any progress.
    Why people cannot join the discussion and come with ideas in how we can produce employment in sustainable activities?
    Back to you guys

    So I’m not sorry I see it that way, because it is how I see it.

  228. Kaye Lee

    What I am sorry that you don’t see is the genuine contribution that others have tried to make.

  229. Kaye Lee

    Regarding the immediate closure of coal mines, what one person said to nurses is one man’s opinion and probably an inevitable gradual outcome. I have also heard people advocate for the expansion of coal mining regardless of the damage it causes. The facts are that coal fired generators have a technical lifespan. Independent of climate commitments, virtually all of Australia’s coal fired power stations will have reached the end of their ‘technical lives’ by 2050. Plant ages, the ‘Paris Agreement’ and renewable energy costs suggest significant retirements of coal, with concurrent replacement with renewable energy between now and 2050.

    As I have said before, anti-Adani is not the beginning. Coal mines have been shedding jobs for several years, partly because they have moved from construction phase to production phase, and partly because of reduced demand and lower prices. Investors are not interested in funding new coal mines or coal-fired power generation. Everyone seems to agree that if Adani went ahead, there would be job losses in other areas.

    There are many arguments in favour of moving from a beef and dairy diet which should be considered for the long term health of people and the planet. Surely it is ok to have the discussion about pros and cons? My strictly vegan nephew and I do every family gathering but I refuse to give up my seafood!

  230. corvus boreus

    The author of this piece often asks; ‘why do activists protest Adani (Carmichael) and not existing mines?’.
    That would be because stopping the proposed mega-mines will stop new coal-holes being dug at minimal cost to existing jobs.
    Closing currently operating mines would still leave the existing land degradation at the cost of existing jobs.

  231. Matters Not

    strictly vegan nephew … refuse to give up my seafood!

    That The Greens as a Party are wedded to vegetarianism is a bit of a stretch. Di Natalie, for example, tried that ‘diet’ for five years but fell off the wagon and avowed never to return. Perhaps that ‘sin’ might be cause for a future ‘revolt’ against his leadership but I think not.

    But to get serious. The next twenty years will see revolutionary changes in employment (and unemployment) patterns – and it will be felt across the spectrum. (Personal experience.) One son – designs ‘products’ then makes them in China. Well aware that his role is on borrowed time. Eventually, Chinese companies will cut him out of the loop – what with free trade agreements and all that.

    Second example – another employs people (both males and females) on base salaries of $250 000.00 per annum. Knows that existing technology (once utilised) will see mass sackings within five years.

    As TC asserts above – the transition is already here. New technology designed to displace labour across the spectrum has arrived. Not confined to the physical as in the past, but impacts massively on the intellectual as well.

    That’s where the debate should be centered. Seems to me that we are discussing (and debating) ‘band aid’ remedies when radical surgery is required.

  232. diannaart

    Indeed Johno

    The global village is only for corporates and other self-entitled.

    Basic wages and secure jobs are only considered in small terms and continue as tribal, divisive with no grand plan for the world’s workers – united workers are the last thing the global corporation wants.

  233. Harquebus

    “Nowadays, money is based on nothing tangible. Money is now created with debt, and they need more debt to pay the interest on the bonds that created this debt/credit/money in the first place. We’ve reached a point where there isn’t even enough money in existence to pay the interest let alone touch the principle. Consequently, everything is slowly turning to shit.”
    “The oldsters want to retire, but can’t and the youngsters can’t find decent jobs. Welcome to the Stealth Depression.”
    “Resource-rich trading partners like Canada & Australia won’t be spared from the next down-turn by Chinese demand like they were during the ’08 – ’09 recession.”
    “The ingrate should be thankful he has a job. Any job! More than 20% of eligible workers don’t.”
    https://www.theburningplatform.com/2017/07/23/the-economic-collapse-began-long-ago/

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