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“Please let me know the truth about Adani”

In supporting the Adani coal mine has Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk contradicted her pre-election promises to defend the Great Barrier Reef and promote ecologically sustainable development? AIMN reader Miriam English puts this to the Premier in this letter.

Dear Annastacia,

I was filled with great hope and happiness when you and your government were elected here in Queensland, deposing the callous and autocratic Newman government, however I’ve since become worried about what is happening to you and your government. Many friends who are firm Labor supporters attempt to quell my fears, saying that you have good and sensible reasons for what you’re doing, though their explanations don’t really sound very plausible to me.

Please, please let me know the truth. I’d like to support you, but am increasingly concerned that you may have abandoned your voters.

Can you please let me know why you support the Adani coal mine despite all the evidence against it?

Jobs. Even Adani’s own accountants admit he lied that it would provide many jobs, as it would be one of the most heavily automated mines in the world. It won’t provide the 10,000 jobs he was fond of saying. It will be unlikely to provide more than a few dozen ongoing jobs. Balanced against the Barrier Reef and all the hundreds of thousands of direct and indirect long term jobs it provides, the mine seems a bad choice. And that’s not to mention all the countless jobs and long term potential income to Queensland if we fostered growth in the booming renewable energy fields rather than the collapsing market for coal.

Money. Adani has a very bad record of gaming the system and of outright corruption. Queensland won’t see tax income from the coal mine. He will undervalue what it mines, ship it through tax haven countries, jacking its value up, then to India where he will sell it at vast profit, with Australia seeing none of that money. The billion dollars the federal government wants to give him will likely go straight to the Caymans. I find it difficult to believe we’ll see a cent of that invested here. Australia, and more importantly, Queensland, will lose enormous amounts of money from this mine. Compare that with the Great Barrier Reef which reliably generates billions of dollars via tourism, being one of the greatest wonders of the world. And let’s not forget the flow of money from technological and medicinal developments that are constantly coming out of rich ecosystems, such as the Reef. Also, worldwide, far more money was invested last year in renewable energy than in coal. Renewable energy is now a booming industry. Every dollar spent on coal is a dollar not spent in tomorrow’s renewable energy bonanza.

Market. The coal market has collapsed and continues to free-fall all around the world. China and India have stopped more than 100 coal projects. USA has no new coal-fired power stations intended and is gradually decommissioning all their old ones. Scotland has now gone completely coal-free. Beijing has just this past weekend closed the last of its coal-fired power plants. China’s peak coal use was in 2013 and is falling rapidly. India has declared it will end all coal imports in a couple of years. The world’s largest coal companies have been going broke as the demand for coal falls through the floor. Now is the very worst time to open a new coal mine. No financial group wants to invest in it — it’s why Adani turned to the Australian government for handouts. In contrast, the worldwide market for renewable energy is booming. Queensland is uniquely positioned to cash in on that… if our government removes the roadblocks. We could be making billions from renewable energy technology instead of wasting billions on coal.

Law. The law on Aboriginal Land Rights states that their land can’t be stolen from them. They must agree to any use of their land. They don’t agree to the Adani mine. That should be the end of it. So… we steal it anyway? The transparently illegal swindle of changing the law to make the theft superficially “legal” doesn’t actually make it right or moral. It is still illegal under international law and violates UN treaties we’ve signed. How can anybody have respect for a government that doesn’t respect its own laws? How can anybody have respect for laws so easily perverted?

Image from abc.net.au. Photo by Leonie Mellor

Environment. Adani has a terrible record of environmental vandalism, even flouting local laws and bribing local officials rather than fixing such damage. He is the last person to be allowed anywhere near Australia’s hyper-delicate ecosystems.

Climate. We would have no hope of meeting our CO2 emissions limits if the Adani mine goes ahead. Climate change is a genuine problem for all of the world, but especially for Australia with our proneness to drought and heatwaves. 97% of climate scientists around the world agree on the danger of global climate destabilisation. If you asked 100 doctors for diagnosis of a pain and 97 diagnosed you with early stage cancer, but 3 said you’re fine and to ignore it, who would you believe? If you believed the 3, how about after you find they’re funded by organ harvesting companies? Coal and climate change are killing the Reef. The recent collapse of coal around the world is the first good news we’ve had on climate change for a long time. It means we just might be able to stabilise temperatures, and actually work toward reducing them again. If the Adani mine goes ahead that is a threat to that. If instead we encourage renewable energy we can create jobs, make money, improve our image, and meet our emissions obligations. We might even be able to save some of the Reef.

Energy. Coal is a dirty, polluting energy source. Even if it didn’t have so many drawbacks, it is simply more expensive now than wind power and solar thermal energy. Solar photovoltaics now rivals coal in cost, and as its efficiency and price trend continues, will soon be more profitable yet less costly than coal. Queensland has far more sunshine available than most places around the world. Geothermal “hot rocks” are also available to Queensland for similar cost as coal. It seems to be irrational to continue to subsidise a dirty, expensive energy source when we have such easy availability of sun and wind. People might suggest that coal gives baseload electricity, but so do solar thermal power stations — they give power 24/7. Smart grids, like the Northern European countries have built also allow wind to provide baseload power. Most Australians live along the coast, which is where wind power is most predictable, with the temperature differential between land and water causing wind to blow from the water onto land during the day and land to water during the night. Solar photovoltaics electricity can also be evened out using batteries.

I hope you can calm my fears and explain your reasons for apparently contradicting your pre-election promises to defend the Reef, promote ecologically sustainable development, and limit global warming.

Best wishes,

Miriam English

There are two wolves and they’re always fighting.
One is darkness and despair. The other is light and hope.
Which wolf wins?
Whichever one you feed.
— Casey in Brad Bird’s movie “Tomorrowland”

Would anybody else like to contact the Annastacia Palaszczuk about their similar concerns? You can reach her via her Contact the Premier page here).

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233 comments

  1. jimhaz

    Good work I must say – but I would have stuck the boot in and accused her of displaying moral corruption and working against the platform of the federal ALP.

  2. Roswell

    Bravo, Miriam.

  3. Anomander

    One look at Annastacia’s bank account in the Cayman Islands would no doubt reveal the truth.

  4. Miriam English

    🙂 jimhaz, but that wouldn’t have got an answer, and I’m actually hoping for a reply from her. I’m genuinely puzzled as to her thoughts and motivation.

    I wrote the letter and sent it before I thought of asking Michael to publish it on AIMN.

  5. Miriam English

    I hope you’re wrong Anomander… though I don’t rule out the possibility that it might be something like that. Energetically pimping Adani’s mine is a truly extraordinary thing to do. 🙁

  6. John

    I get updates from the Wangan & Jagalingou Traditional Owners Council who say that Labor have broken faith with a long tradition of defending native title and abandoned their right to self-determination.

    Last Tuesday morning the ALP caucus met and backed the Senate committee’s recommendations in support of Brandis’ “Adani Amendment”.

    http://www.communityrun.org/petitions/don-t-let-adani-build-their-huge-coal-mine-on-our-traditional-land
    Bill Shorten Bill.Shorten.MP@aph.gov.au
    Shadow Attorney General, Mark Dreyfus Mark.Dreyfus.MP@aph.gov.au
    Senator Pat Dodson senator.dodson@aph.gov.au
    UN Special Rapporteur (via Wangan & Jagalingou Traditional Owners Council) UN-SR-IP-via@wanganjagalingou.com.au

  7. Andreas Bimba

    Well done Miriam.

  8. Maureen

    John that is very bad news. I am very dissapointed in Labor..

  9. Michael Taylor

    Well said, Miriam. You speak for a lot of us.

  10. Vikingduk

    Two recent politicians, phoney Tony and the sock puppet, have shown they will do and say anything to attain and keep power. Why should Anna be any different? With an lmminent election in Qld, Anna would certainly be monstered by the lying nasty party and rabid media culminating in the distinct possibility of losing power.

    According to research at MIT, as published by NASA, if all fossil fuels were stopped now, this planet will continue to suffer our abuse for several hundred years into the future, actually increasing in severity.

    On our current trajectory a person could ask, are we completely screwed? Can we still find hope?

  11. Maureen

    Great letter Miriam! Very well said. We can only continue to pressure Ms Palaszczuk. Yes we need to feed light and hope!

  12. Matters Not

    I’m actually hoping for a reply from her. I’m genuinely puzzled as to her thoughts and motivation.

    Completely confident you will get a reply with the signature of Annastacia Palaszczuk dutifully attached. Because she would have received so many letters on similar lines, they are now probably written to a formula – a cut and paste, approved by her Chief of staff Angela McDonough. That’s the brutal truth of how a busy Premier’s office operates.

    As to why she is going down that path? That’s pretty simple. Look at the political realities. Following the outcome of the 2015 election, successful amendments to the electoral act in early 2016 include: adding an additional four parliamentary seats from 89 to 93, changing from optional preferential voting to full-preferential voting, and moving from unfixed three-year terms to fixed four-year terms.

    So Annastacia needs to get the support of 47 members – a number of whom represent electorates in what we might call Central Queensland. It’s mining territory. Without mining, there are many people who believe they are on the unemployment scrap heap (and they’re right). It’s now also Hanson territory. Politically Annastacia might lose a few (Green) votes across Queensland but not to even try to support Adani would be political suicide in so many electorates including in places like the cities of Rockhampton, Mackay and Townsville.. She can’t afford to lose those seats.

  13. babyjewels10

    Well done Miriam. I have posted on the Premier’s page on multiple occasions, as have many more but it’s like shouting into the wind. There’s something going on here that we don’t know about, but can only imagine.

  14. paulwalter

    Is it going to be a rerun of Anna Bligh and thebroken promise over privatisations?

    MN’s input adds, but by Christ it is stomach-turning, watching this type of politics in operation.

  15. Miriam English

    Thanks folks. 🙂

    Matters Not, I can’t help wondering why someone would want to win as a bad-guy rather than lose as the good-guy. Surely she wants a legacy.

    Perhaps she thinks the Reef is already screwed so she might as well get the miners’ votes. Trouble is, there’s much more at stake than that. There are future generations. Decisions she makes now can mean the difference between totally out-of-control climate, or merely a very bumpy ride. It would be one of the biggest coal mines in the world! It’s aptly described as a carbon bomb!

    Perhaps her advisors are constantly in her ear about the short-term, and how having a Labor government in power is still much better than LNP or, heaven forbid, One Nazi Nation.

    Maybe she actually believes the Mine still won’t go ahead, or that if it does the project will die in just a year or two and the Wangan, Jagalingou, and Juru people are just unfortunate collateral damage.

    I doubt she’ll tell me, but I have to try. The way I see it the Adani mine is the closest thing to pure evil I’ve heard of in some time. Prostituting herself to that cause is a terrible thing to do, but she hasn’t explained herself anywhere I’ve heard. Maybe she will if given a chance.

    Maybe that’s how I should have written the letter. 🙂

  16. Keith

    Well written Miriam!

  17. Matters Not

    Surely she wants a legacy.

    Miriam, Annastacia is now a politician first and foremost. And to date a local legend. After all, she led Labor to an almost impossible and unlikely victory. That’s her legacy! Right there. Winning a second term would be icing on the political cake. That’s her priority – and by a significant margin.

    Trouble is, there’s much more at stake than that. There are future generations. Decisions she makes now can mean the difference between totally out-of-control climate, or merely a very bumpy ride. It would be one of the biggest coal mines in the world! It’s aptly described as a carbon bomb!

    All true. But as you say – that’s all in the future. Politicians don’t usually get credit for what they prevented. Just ask Rudd about his very sensible (preventive) actions re the impending GFC. He’s not remembered for that, but for other actions.

    Maybe she actually believes the Mine still won’t go ahead

    Maybe. But that’s not that important, politically speaking. The baseline is that she tried, really, really hard. If it doesn’t proceed (and I hope it doesn’t), then she hopes she doesn’t wear the blame.

    I doubt she’ll tell me,

    I am totally confident she won’t tell you the unvarnished truth. The way politics works, a political leader must always be on the front foot – always ‘knowing’, always ‘confident’ and so on.

    Must admit I am waiting for the day when a politician – when asked a question – tells the truth – and answers with – I don’t know. But I am supremely confident that’s not going to happen.

  18. Deanna Jones

    Bloody good work, Miriam.

  19. jimhaz

    What Matters Not said would seem to be the reality. It’s the QLD ALP choice.

    Such a pity we cant get leadership that has the courage to govern responsibly. Maybe we should pressure for a decrease in future political salaries so its no great drama if they lose elections and we have fewer career based pollies in it for both the dough and the game. Give the difference to government school principals.

  20. Matters Not

    Miriam, I am glad you wrote a ‘submission’ (and a good one). I wish many more would do the same and on similar lines. But it’s not the force of argument that wins the day but the ‘numbers’, because politics is always about the numbers. As Ovid pointed out in similar vein:

    “Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence.”

    Over the years, I worked on many ‘inquiries’, broadly defined. Thousand upon thousands of submissions – some ‘for’ – some ‘against’ – some consisting of only a few, hand-written sentences – others stretching to page upon page and professionally edited and ‘presented’ with executive summaries and the like – some written by the average Joe (or Jean) Blow – some written by individuals with a high public profile (and therefore capable of attracting media attention both by name and the ability to present logically coherent arguments) – some written by well meaning (but relatively politically impotent) interest groups – some written by ‘collectives’ including employer and employee ‘unions’ at the State level and then some written by National organisations who most definitely will feature in media debates.

    And that’s (very roughly) how one ‘weights’ submissions when preparing reports for decision makers.

    But don’t be deterred. Speak up. Become one of the drops.

    Yes I guessed that H would soon appear with the same predictable message. I suspect that ‘gold’ will be the answer.

  21. Harquebus

    Well done Miriam.
    Considered and thoughtful as always.
    Governments at all levels around the world are getting desperate. Large debts, unfunded liabilities and infrastructure maintenance burdens that are becoming unmanageable. These are just symptoms of diminishing returns on energy and resources. A phenomenon that they refuse to believe is happening and one that currency creation can not reverse.
    Cheers.

  22. Kaye Lee

    Can anyone tell me why Palaszczuk and eight mayors flew to India?

    The media says it was to “help convince Adani to go ahead with the $21.7 billion Carmichael coal mine.”

    I thought they didn’t need any convincing, just court cases finished and finance found.

    The Premier said “I have indicated very clearly by coming here and being accompanied by eight mayors how important this project is for regional Queensland jobs.”

    What crap. You don’t have to go to India to woo them for a deal that is already done and up to the courts and financiers to allow or not. It was a blatant junket Annastacia. You disappoint me.

  23. Matters Not

    KL when Palaszczuk said:

    “I have indicated very clearly by coming here and being accompanied by eight mayors how important this project is for regional Queensland jobs.”

    She is reinforcing her message that she really cares about regional Queensland jobs. And having all these Mayors there who are of a similar mind she had a ready made, sympathetic audience. As Trump demonstrates – happy clappers win votes.

    Politics is all about ‘belief’. As is ‘religion’. They intersect and overlap. Rationality doesn’t rate

  24. Susan

    Thank you Miriam.

    I have written numerous times about the broken promises and have received generic replies each time.

    Abbott Point with it acres of coal on the ground is right on the coast where cyclone Debbie has just hit.
    Also we are now experiencing our second year of mass bleaching of the coral reefs… This has never happened consecutively before in our history.

  25. Kaye Lee

    Politics is about pretending. As if that trip made one iota difference to the prospects of this going ahead or not.

  26. Matters Not

    that trip made one iota difference to the prospects of this going ahead or not.

    Agree! But as you point out – politics is about pretending . And if it’s followed by ‘belief’ then you become a political winner.

    What are you asking for – an informed, thinking electorate? Good luck with that.

    People are keen to accept ‘fake news’. Indeed I could point to examples on this site where people believe what they want to believe. Indeed I see examples where it’s spread to other sites.

    And who says ‘reality’ isn’t a ‘construct’.

  27. jamesss

    Understanding a political animal and their agendas is beyond the average Joe and Jean, service to others is to be avoided at all costs.
    A consciousness/awareness shift in humanity is required. There are at a guess 10,000 of these beings who purport to govern. 7 Billion others on the planet, don’t they realize they are outnumbered? I enjoy visiting AIM exposing the skullduggery. Thank you.

  28. Johno

    Well done Miriam.

  29. Kaye Lee

    Donald Trump signs executive order overhauling Barack Obama’s attempts to slow climate change
    Fossil fuels are given priority as President Trump signs orders to review clean power plan and lift ban on coal leases.

    The decree’s main target is former President Barack Obama’s Clean Power Plan that required states to slash carbon emissions from power plants – a critical element in helping the United States meet its commitment to the Paris climate accord.

    The so-called “Energy Independence” order also reverses a ban on coal leasing on federal lands and undoes rules to curb methane emissions from oil and gas production.

    “I cannot tell you how many jobs the executive order is going to create but I can tell you that it provides confidence in this administration’s commitment to the coal industry,” Kentucky Coal Association president Tyler White said..

    http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/03/29/06/14/trump-ends-war-on-coal-scraps-regulations#ZhlpA0mg2ysWTBAB.99

  30. Freethinker

    Annastacia cannot ado it alone, do not forget the rest of the party members.
    This reinforce my view that both big parties are very similar.

  31. Trish Corry

    A mine will ‘most likely only have a few dozen ongoing jobs” hmmm must be why Rockhampton has a submission to build an entire second airport to transport the employees from Rockhampton to the mine. To fly in and out a few dozen jobs. This is our edge over Townsville, who have also been named as a hub for employees. The Rockhampton Mayor is fighting hard for these jobs.

    The QLD Govt has negotiated with Adani for local employees and have a radius span. Unemployment in Rockhampton is approx 7.5% with areas like Mt Morgan at 19.1% and youth unemployment over 19%. Does anyone understand what this looks like? What it feels like? In the Fitzroy region that is about 12,000 people out of work. What happens here with the mining downturn is other businesses suffer as well. Entertainment businesses, cafe’s restaurants, sporting clubs, corner shops, then there are mining supply businesses and construction businesses with no work, then other businesses are also too scared to employ. Just try to get your head around it. When we had Newman sacking everyone AND a mining downturn, it was devastating. Please don’t scoff at jobs. It makes my stomach churn.

    There are over 200 environmental provisions in place. Which ones do you not like? All I see are these blanket statements about the environment, but no one speaks to the actual provisions put in place and/or makes suggestions why they won’t work or need to be improved. Adani needs to work by our laws in Queensland, not India’s.

    Queensland has approximately 40 coal mines – most in the CQ area where I live. I’m not sure what people think we do here. It is a mining region and it is also an agricultural region, the Beef Capital of Australia and we also do Higher Education and community services very well. Where are the protests about shutting down these 40 mines? Does anyone protesting against Adani even know there are about 40 mines in this region? (Don’t nitpick this it is between 30 and 40 – I can’t be bothered counting).

    When Annastacia came here it was standing room only in one of our biggest function rooms in town. There were 2 people outside waving a ban Adani sign.

    I am hoping to read an article from anyone, someone, anyone, why they are against jobs for a mining region, and what alternative plans do they have? Please also add in if Labor is so crap in QLD, who do you want to lead the State instead? Within 2 years Curtis Pitt has us back in surplus after the destruction of Newman. Frontline jobs have been reinstated. VLAD laws repealed and changed. A return to the civil rights of citizens. AP returned funding to heaps of community groups who had their funding stripped by Newman:

    If one of the bigger companies started up this mine, would anyone know or care? There seems to be so much that this Adani is from India. Why?

    I am proud of our Mayor and I am proud of our State Govt for fighting for jobs for this region. I’ll even give credit to Canavan. Not Landry, all she does is bang on about a weir for 4 years. Anyone of you, please come to town, stand on a soap box and say why the mine should not go ahead and why we don’t deserve jobs and everything that comes with the increase in jobs here for other businesses. Please do. You will gather about 5 people to listen.

    Good luck with your letter, but it appears that it mainly people who don’t even understand mining, this region, or who have bothered to even take a look at the environmental provisions in place and who think that the mine is like on the beach right next to the GBR are protesting. I have not seen ONE person with an sensible alternative to transition away from mining for CQ, including a feasibility of how it will be done and how long it will take and the employment effects. Maybe start with that. QLD has worked hard to have some of the best mining practices in the world.

    Yeh, lets all protest to boot Labor out and return to the good old days of the LNP! Because in QLD there IS no other choice. Well I guess you could push for a majority Hanson Govt. That will be fun!

  32. Egalitarian

    You would have to say that Annastacia doesn’t have much wisdom.

  33. Keith

    Trish

    There are immutable facts that over ride the 200 provisions you write about:

    a) We need greenhouse gases in the right proportion to survive. CO2 being important in regulating the respiration rate in humans. Earth would be a sphere of ice without greenhouse gases.
    b) Since the Industrial Revolution the rate of CO2 and other greenhouse gases have been increasing; for CO2, it has increased from 280 ppm to over 400 ppm currently.
    c) Carbon took millions of years to be sequested; we have disposed of fossil fuels (carbon) in huge quantities in a little over a century.

    The Arctic is in a real mess, it has a great influence on climate.

    When the first pingoe explosions were found a few years ago; Glaciologist Jason Box stated we are “f…..” There has been much deterioration since.

    http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/n0905-7000-underground-gas-bubbles-poised-to-explode-in-arctic/

    That is not just a red flag; but an explosion warning us of climatic danger.

  34. townsvilleblog

    We have a choice, we can either have the Great Barrier Reef employing 70,000 people for the long term or we can have Adani who will employ a few hundred people for perhaps 20 years and pay no income tax to our federal govt, I know which one I prefer.

  35. Harquebus

    Trish Cory
    Jobs is something that we are going to have to sacrifice, including the tourism industry if, we want to reverse the damage being inflicted on our one and only life support system.

    I accept your challenge: “to read an article from anyone, someone, anyone, why they are against jobs for a mining region, and what alternative plans do they have?”
    Give me a few days and I will contact you directly.

    Cheers.

  36. Kaye Lee

    Project information supplied by proponent and subject to change.

    Jobs Mine:
    Up to 1075 (construction)
    Up to 3800 (operational)
    Railway line:
    Up to 1400 (construction)
    Up to 120 (operational)

    http://statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/assessments-and-approvals/carmichael-coal-mine-and-rail-project.html

    Abbott Point

    Employment impacts of the Project during its construction phase
    • 82 FTEs, comprising 39 direct FTEs and 43 indirect FTEs; and
    Annual operation
    2.1 FTEs, comprising one direct FTE and 1.1 indirect FTEs

    http://www.statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/resources/project/abbot-point-apx/abbot-pt-eis-appendix-s-economic-impact-assessment.pdf

    The jobs are highly unlikely to eventuate but why anyone would consider jeopardising the tourism trade, and our health, and risk more intense weather disasters for a dying industry is beyond me.

  37. Roswell

    Trish, I don’t think anyone is against jobs being created in a mining region, in fact, I’m sure that most people – especially those here, including me – are desperate for it to happen.

    But must it be mining jobs? Do mining regions have nothing else to offer?

  38. Harquebus

    Roswell
    You forget me so soon.
    I do not support job creation. In fact, just the opposite; job destruction.
    Cheers.

  39. Roswell

    Harquebus, I hadn’t forgotten you. I was just ignoring you. 😜

    I see things different to you. People need jobs. Without money, people starve. Starving people die.

    That’s where we are different. You want them to die. I don’t.

  40. randalstella

    If Labor are so proud about the Adani mine, why haven’t they been promoting it openly, encouraging discussion of it – rather than largely pretending it is not happening, as much as they could?

    No wonder the bastards knifed Rudd.
    As the WA election just showed, the ALP are a wholly owned subsidiary of the mining industry.

    ‘200 environmental provisions’ – with Adani? Why Adani? They have an appalling environmental record, a very bad employment record, and are dodgy with finances and tax accountability.
    If the project was so important, why not another mining company? Why the haste? The deal reeks. No one else would touch it. That’s why Adani will.
    Then we have the obscenity of the Labor-led delegation to visit this woeful corporation, begging favours.
    And thus it is now the Adani Labor Party.
    This devastating project is not viable without a billion or more of compulsory taxpayers funds, from across Australia. It is corporate welfare at its very worst. If you are so proud, fund your own devastation.

    It is not possible without Labor connivance in Brandis’ removal of native title rights. These people’s traditional lands are to be converted into a giant hole in the ground, against their protests. More Labor pride there? When will Labor be able to face these people again?

    As many have said in unanswered letters to Shorten, this abolishes Labor’s claims to environmental responsibility. Destroys it. Atomises it.
    The Labor claims of action against AGW are now simply a joke, a stupid fraud; geared for the gormless. The only ones likely to give Labor AGW policy credence are those who don’t care about environmental issues anyway. No one with any sense of responsibility will believe them again soon.

    I fully support protests and action against unfair, anti-Union, laws. I repeat the question that I posted under a Labor article supporting this civil disobedience: will Labor spruikers support the right to protest and resistance against this colossal mine?

  41. Harquebus

    Roswell.
    On that one, you are most definitely wrong and once again, have displayed a lack of understanding and awareness. 🙂

    “Modern agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food.” — Prof. Albert Bartlett.

    I don’t want to see famine and I didn’t create our predicament; the consequence of people like Prof. Bartlett, David Attenborough and thousands of others, including myself, being ignored.

    One just for you. I highly recommend it.
    Dr Albert Bartlett: Arithmetic, Population and Energy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_VpyoAXpA8

    “He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.” — John McCarthy

    Cheers.

  42. Roswell

    Harquebus, this time you’ve got me wrong.

    I don’t have a lack of understanding and awareness. I just don’t talk a lot.

  43. Kaye Lee

    It doesn’t matter how many environmental safeguards are put on the actual mine – the coal it produces will kill the planet. In the EIS and in the court cases, the impact of burning this much more coal has never been considered.

    The Australian Conservation Foundation took the Adani case to the Federal Court to try and force the minister to consider climate change impacts from emissions that would be produced when the coal was burnt overseas for electricity, but this was not successful.

    There is no trigger for the Federal Government to consider projects that have climate change impacts. There are only nine matters of national environmental significance that spark Federal Government scrutiny but we don’t have a greenhouse gas trigger in federal law.

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-change/why-adanis-21-billion-carmichael-mine-was-unstoppable/news-story/5790c52d5c11e6f4d5058161be358893

    And Harquebus…..do you have any idea how much you piss me off telling everyone else they don’t understand. You have shown yourself to be completely incapable of understanding the many possibilities for the future. You are nothing more than a blaring klaxon who sits there making loud noise while everyone else gets on with putting out the fire.

  44. Keith

    Trish

    Various graphs in relation to maximum extent of sea ice in the Arctic:

    http://sites.uci.edu/zlabe/arctic-sea-ice-extentconcentration/

    The maximum sea ice extent (March) is now lower than the minimum extent measured in 1980 (September).

    BOM is suggesting there is a 50/50 chance of an El Nino in 2017, NOAA is in agreement; quite unprecedented should an El Nino be experienced towards the end of the year. In 2015 there was much discussion about an El Nino happening, it did not quite occur.
    What is being displayed is a warm Pacific Ocean.

    New research from Dr Mann indicates that jet streams are being altered; the degree of temperature between the Tropics and North Pole have reduced.

    http://youtu.be/gThvsFZ8nQo

    Bill McKibbon in a Guardian article writes should the mine go ahead; then, it takes us well on the way to 2C above pre Industrial times.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/27/in-the-battle-for-the-planets-climate-future-australias-adani-mine-is-the-line-in-the-sand

    Already there are suggestions we are well on the way to 2C:

    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/01/10/ticking-carbon-clock-warns-we-have-one-year-avert-climate-catastrophe

    I’m not fond of predictions such as Common Dreams writes about; but, with tundra in poor condition voiding methane, huge wildfires in the tundra and tropical areas, deforestation, and soil expelling CO2; it is not an extreme prediction.

    As we know a changing climate has an impact on coral reefs worldwide. Whether coal from Adani is used to fuel power plants in Australia, India, or elsewhere; the emissions circle the planet and make an impact; putting far more people at risk.

    From a climate point of view the Adani mine is a disaster, for the sake of relatively few employees. Adani originally lied about how many would be employed (10,000); it was ascertained in a Court setting it would be more like 3,500. Deposits in a Cayman Island vault might look fabulous; but, the huge damage to the climate is not worth it. An extreme climate kills.

  45. Kaye Lee

    Up to $3 billion from Adani’s planned Carmichael coal mine will be shifted to a subsidiary owned in the Cayman Islands if the controversial project goes ahead, an analysis of company filings shows.

    “I would describe it as a structure that means that the Adani family enriches themselves if the mine goes ahead but that other shareholders are impoverished,” associate professor Thomas Clarke, director of the Centre for Corporate Governance at UTS told the ABC.

    “The worry is that this may be just the beginning.

    “That the Adani family have the ability to shift cash and assets around at will and in the future they may well do so at the cost of shareholders and the Queensland economy.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-14/adani-carmichael-coalmine-to-shift-millions-to-cayman-islands/8350704

  46. Johno

    Trish,
    It does not seem like you would like an ongoing stable climate to live in.

  47. guest

    Trish Corry,

    you already have 40 coal mines in Central Queensland? So why do we need more? Certainly India does not need the coal – because coal is being phased out in India.

    The Adani mine which you are promoting could expand to 5x the area of Sydney Harbour.

    Such a mine will add to the effects of coal-mining on the environment, such that other jobs become impossible through the effects on health, water quality, farming, tourism…Mining becomes the only game in town. (see Naomi Klein, 2014, p.316)

    As well, there are the effects of burning coal anywhere in the world – and not just the creation of CO2 which influences climate change. Learn about climate science if you are not sure what this means. Burning coal emits toxins which affect health; coal dust alone affects health. The Great Barrier Reef is in danger from climate change and from coal dust as it is transported.

    In order to gain loans for mining, fossil fuel companies need to able to point to future resources as guarantee for future production. Adani will not be able to gain investment for the CQ mine, but he might think he can use the CQ mine as a possible guarantee for mines elsewhere in the world.

    Even if Adani does go head with the support of the Q. government, there are no guarantees for the number of jobs available, certainly not as many as Adani suggests. Nor is there any guarantee about the long-term viability of the mine if the coal industry collapses – which is predicted.

    Under those circumstances, the CQ Adani mine will become stranded assets and will cause rivers of tears.

    That Trump is guaranteeing a return to jobs in coal mines is no reason to think he can be copied here in Oz. Trump is being accused of making a promise which cannot be met.

    Let us not think that the situation is any different here. So you ask for someone to tell us which jobs we might have to replace coal mines. Does PM Turnbull not have the answer: “jobs and growth”. A sure-fire solution? Won’t a reduction in taxes for business create jobs and investment.

    Don’t bet on it.

  48. Jack Straw

    Kaye Don’t worry you have just thrown Harquebus and insult. He will feed all of information into his computer and again then re invent himself Da Da ! New improved Harquebus will reappear all Contrite for a day or 2 then the old Harquebus will reappear.Then he will be knocked down again then he will get up again.If only he fed some new information into the computer he may get a different result.

  49. Johno

    Roswell
    Re your post to Harquebus ‘That’s where we are different. You want them to die. I don’t.’

    I really don’t think Harquebus wants people to die.

  50. Kaye Lee

    Ms Palaszczuk said the project would create “tens of thousands” of jobs for regional Queensland.

    Why is the Premier continuing to lie about the jobs it would create?

    From Adani’s own impact statement which assumed a start date in 2013-14

    3.3.2 Project Workforce Profile

    It is expected that the Project (Mine and Rail) will reach peak workforce in 2015 with approximately 3,700 workers and an overlap between construction workforce and operations workforce. The workforce drops significantly from 2015 – 2018 as the scale of construction activities reduces, particularly the rail construction.

    The Mine is expected to reach full production of 60 Mtpa from 2022 onwards and it is assumed that workforce numbers will be relatively consistent after this time, at around 3,000 workers.

    Then a later update…..

    Operations activities will commence in 2015 with a workforce of approximately 800 workers.

  51. Roswell

    Johno, yes it was an extreme thing for me to say, and I regret saying it. But he does keep saying we need to reduce the globe’s population and we need to do it quickly.

    I made my own conclusions.

  52. paulwalter

    Trish Corry: “The Queensland government has negotiated for local employees”

    ALL”local employees? All TEN(?) thousand of them… well, of course, what else would one expect but aussie workers at an aussie site?

    All to be paid for out of the $billions that Adani wants to shift to the Caymans..surely shifting money to the Caymans would have to occur a long time AFTER the mine had made enough money to pay for wages, infrastructure and taxation/royalities obligations here and in India, a poor country for many, (wouldn’t want to get “done” like we were over things like the Gorgon project, would we?).

    No funny games using shell companies to dodge paying wages to all these legions of workers, after the quickly buried Inpex saga in Darwin, say? What ever DID happen with Inpex and all those workers, by the way?

    Am surprised India would seek to expand coal generation, surely they wouldn’t want coal going to an alternative energies economy, so that the big cities stop being gas chambers.

    Corry tries to sooth us with claims that all is well, she’ll be apples, the economics and ecology are a done deal.

    Just like gas fracking was supposed to harmless and no way would cheapskating BP bugger up the Caribbean with Deep water Horizon.

    Am just so suspicious of the bland assurances of advocates..any disclosures?

    It is NOT against the sacred, uncontestible mantras of “development” and “jobs” that pushes out any questioning of details that most folk here are interested in., but cheapskating on ecology and worker safety issues and the OPAQUENESS of procedures that avoid detail answers to objections.

    It is not for us to answer you, Trish Corry, on this sort of issue, but you and your backers to answer the rest of us, for the sake of the future.

  53. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    “You have shown yourself to be completely incapable of understanding the many possibilities for the future. You are nothing more than a blaring klaxon who sits there making loud noise while everyone else gets on with putting out the fire.”

    I understand very well the consequences of ignoring realities and am not willing to gamble my life on an endless stream of possibilities that never result in a positive outcome. I say that is you and other shoppers that are fueling the fire.

    Something that I read this morning.

    “That is a half century after the subject of cooperating on a fusion project came up at a meeting in Geneva between President Ronald Reagan and the Soviet leader Mikhail S. Gorbachev. A functional commercial fusion power plant would be even further down the road.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/science/fusion-power-plant-iter-france.html

    Widespread famine has already begun. We don’t have to wait any longer.

    http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Global_Famine_Begins%3A_UN_Announces_That_The_Worst_Food_Crisis_Since_World_War_II_Is_Happening_Right_Now/57413/0/38/38/Y/M.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/16/yemen-conflict-7-million-close-to-famine

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/07/africa/somalia-famine-united-nations/

    https://robertscribbler.com/2017/03/01/famine-warning-issued-in-four-countries-following-worst-african-droughts-in-decades/

    http://allnewspipeline.com/Banned_Venezuela_Video_Proves_Watchmen_Right_All_Along.php

    I have read all of these and more. If you want to read more about this subject, I can provide.

    Cheers.

  54. Mick Byron

    randalstella

    “As the WA election just showed, the ALP are a wholly owned subsidiary of the mining industry.”
    please explain !
    you making up tommy rot does not count so some evidence of your statement please

  55. Mick Byron

    Labor strategists are planning to delay the next state election in Queensland until 2018.February 2018 had now firmed as preferred polling date, hoping One Nation will implode in the meantime.
    That may not be so quick happening however.
    The West Australian results for One Nation were not as grim as most hoped while ABCs Antony Green points out that while One Nation polled 4.7 per cent overall, it actually managed 8.1 per cent in the seats it contested.In the three Legislative Council (upper house) regions covering greater Perth, the party polled between 6.4% and 7.87%. In the three rural regions its vote was between 10.5% and 13.5%, winning it three members of the upper house.
    As QLD is the home base of One Nation and polling showing fluctuations of up to 23% voter intent for One Nation and a Reachtel poll on LNP with a two-party lead of 53-47,It seems those so antagonistic to Annastacia Palaszczuk and her government will get relief with QLD returning to the LNP and likely a chance of One Nation holding the balance of power.
    As Palaszczuk has committed to preferencing One Nation last it seems that the One Nation Party will do a deal with the Conservatives and it is likely to be better received by QLD voters than in W.A..
    I think Labor strategists are just prolonging the inevitable and the Palaszczuk haters will have Tim Nicholls to deal with in the not too distant future.

  56. Mick Byron

    Miriam English
    Would it be worthwhile posing the same set of questions to Tim Nicholls on his and his Parties attitude and direction for Adani as it will almost certainly be a Conservative or a Conservative plus One Nation balance of power government in place within 12 to 18 months.I would like to see the response as to their direction for Adani

  57. Jack Straw

    The Harq is back. He’s never down for too long.

  58. Kyran

    Sooo, wait a minute. The Adani companies are going to save northern Queensland, at our governments expense, and the Adani family are going to pocket the profits?
    Have I got that right?
    Jobs. Money. Market. Law. Environment. Climate. Energy.
    These are considerations that require serious thought. In the absence of such consideration (or thought), we are offered the platitude that ‘politics is about pretending’. Every few years we get to choose the least worst of the bad options.
    From what I have read about this proposal, there are feck all jobs, they have no money and the market has eviscerated. The law, environment, climate and energy, simply don’t matter.
    Adani executives are appointed to government boards and politicians get jobs with Adani.
    None of which will be accountable.
    Well, not till the next election. When we, yet again, get to choose the least worst of the bad options.
    Have I got that right?
    There have been so many comments over the years about us getting the governments we deserve, due to ‘stupid’ or ‘ignorant’ voters. Why keep blaming the voters, when they have little other than ‘Sophie’s Choice’?
    Thank you Ms English and commenters. Apologies for the rant. Take care

  59. Mick Byron

    Kyran
    “Every few years we get to choose the least worst of the bad options.”
    If you have the answers it is a simple thing really.Stand at the next election and convince the voters you have all the answers.

  60. Roswell

    Kaye Lee … I say that is you and other shoppers that are fueling the fire.

    Harquebus, that was a downright ridiculous thing to say. Sorry, but it was absolutely stupid.

    I expect better.

  61. Johno

    Trish
    Re your post.. ‘Anyone of you, please come to town, stand on a soap box and say why the mine should not go ahead and why we don’t deserve jobs and everything that comes with the increase in jobs here for other businesses. Please do. You will gather about 5 people to listen.’

    Maybe you could go to the pacific islands that are going under from rising sea levels, stand on your soap box (you might need to) and say sorry about your islands but Australia needs jobs and growth and are you going tell these people a rich country like Australia could easily resettle everyone in OZ, noooo wooorrrries.

  62. Harquebus

    Roswell

    Reduce consumption using quotas and not with unfair taxation. We can not shop our way to sustainability and we can not borrow our way to prosperity.

    To say that my statement is ridiculous adds to the mounting evidence that, despite your claims, you really do not have a proper understanding how we got into our predicament. You only get credit for being aware that we are in one.

    Cheers.

  63. The AIM Network

    To quote Kaye Lee:

    “And Harquebus…..do you have any idea how much you piss me off telling everyone else they don’t understand.”

  64. Kaye Lee

    Adani is planning to use driverless trucks to transport coal at its new $22 billion mine in the Galilee Basin, among other automated processes.

    Central Queensland University resource economist Professor John Rolfe said the new processes would result in more technology and engineering jobs in larger cities, and fewer jobs at the mine face itself.

    Automation is rapidly reducing employment in mining and manufacturing. Across a wide range of industries, from car manufacturing to computing, robots or artificial intelligence are increasingly taking over roles traditionally performed by humans. The same is true for coal mining.

    Coal mining is not the answer to employment problems.

    Harquebus, get back to me when you have an idea. I should qualify that – an idea that doesn’t involve enforced sterilisation or compulsory abortions or abstinence from sex for a decade..

  65. Mick Byron

    Trish Corry.
    I was in Rockhsmpton not too long ago to attend a funeral and at the wake,attended by several hundred I mentioned I was opposed to Adani.
    I was not sure whether I would be lynched or run out of town as I couldn’t find a single solitary soul to support my view.
    Kaye Lee
    regarding employment, i was told that big ventures like Adani create 3 indirect jobs for every position created.
    I was given the Newcastle steel industry as an example and on reading found this to be so.
    However I still don’t support Adani but I don’t live there and need a job

  66. Harquebus

    The AIM Network

    So that’s why we are where we are. Because everyone here except me understands what’s going on.
    Well done. I can’t wait to see what else the know-it-alls have got lined up for us.

    Cheers.

  67. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    Adani’s own figures do not support the assertion that the ratio of indirect jobs created is 3:1. They have included indirect jobs in their proposal. As I quoted before from their own proposal, the Abbott Point expansion will create “2.1 FTEs, comprising one direct FTE and 1.1 indirect FTEs”. Whoopsy doodle. 1 direct job and 1.1 indirect jobs after construction that will last for less than a year and, according to Adani, construction jobs will most likely provide ongoing employment for those who were already employed with gas line construction etc.

    The mine workers will all be FIFO. It is dubious as to how much they will benefit the regional communities that they fly out from – they may not even come from Queensland.

    Harquebus, other people here toss around ideas. They are willing to listen, to learn, to think. You are not. You are the only one here who purports to be a know-it-all. The rest of us are investigating every option available. As I said, when you have a practical and feasilbe idea, let me know.

  68. Kaye Lee

    Let’s be generous and assume that Adani will go way above their own projected employment levels and they create 5,000 new jobs to make the maths easy. Our federal government wants to give them one billion dollars – that means the taxpayers are paying $200,000 per job created. At that rate they could join the submarine fiasco.

  69. Jack Straw

    The Harq has been doing his bit by applying his Abstinence for the past 20 years. Preferring Politics over pleasure.Though I don’t think a commentator should be hiding behind name The AIM Network to make personal comment.

  70. The AIM Network

    “Though I don’t think a commentator should be hiding behind name The AIM Network to make personal comment.”

    Is that the new rule?

  71. The AIM Network

    Yet it’s OK, say, for Harquebus, Roswell, and hundreds of others to comment under assumed names?

  72. Miriam English

    Mick, good idea. I’ll send a similar, but differently worded letter to the conservatives.

    Trish, nobody thinks people in the north don’t deserve jobs. Calm down. As I said, there are plenty of jobs to be made in renewable energy — far more than in mining. Adani has boasted that his mine would be one of the most highly automated in the world. That equates to very few jobs. Adani runs scams. He would be perfectly happy for people in the north to get all worked up, defending the mine for jobs that will in fact never eventuate. Let them build new airports. He won’t care. The jobs are not there.

    If you want jobs and a safe future for your children then invest in renewable energy. It is booming all around the world and making billions of dollars. Coal is imploding everywhere.

    I’m not stopping people earning money from coal; Greenpeace is not stopping them; the Australian Greens aren’t stopping them… the marketplace is stopping them. Coal is collapsing everywhere. The jobs aren’t there. Adani is playing the people and the government for fools. He’ll take the billion dollars, make an automated mine, skim as much money from it as quickly as he can before it collapses in a year or two or three, then he’ll leave Australia without the expected income and jobs, but with a dirty great hole in the ground, poisoned water, damaged reef, fatally screwed ALP, and then he’ll move on to the next suckers.

    You’re getting all worked up over an illusion. Convince your friends they should be getting worked up about bringing in renewable energy jobs. It’ll earn way more than coal, will help your children, and is something with a real future, not a fake one.

  73. Kaye Lee

    It is time I fessed up. Whilst Kaye Lee is part of the name that appears on my birth certificate, and is what my father called me so has sentimental value, it is not the name I am known by professionally or locally. This is a venue where we express opinions but, as I found out very early on, expressing political opinions online can have deleterious repercussions, particularly when you own a business (or even worse, are employed by the government).

    I have no problem with people using a site name, be it for their personal or administrative contributions.

  74. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    When your listening, learning and thinking produces a practical and feasilbe idea, let me know. Until then, I will continue to advocate depopulating and powering down and so what if the billionaires go broke and jobs are lost.
    The time for action was decades ago and still, there is no plan from those that oppose me.

    Internet rule number one: Never use your real name.
    Internet rule number two: Never use your credit card.

    Cheers.

  75. Kaye Lee

    Trish and I had a long discussion once before about this topic of jobs for her area and she had a long list of other job-creating enterprises. I wish I could remember the article to repost her list because it was far more viable than anything Adani is proposing. Trish, if you are reading still, do you still have your list? I remember education was one aspect but I would love to read it again to remind myself of other options to mining for much-needed jobs in your neck of the woods.

  76. Kaye Lee

    Harquebus, I have written about thousands of practical and feasible ideas over the years. Miriam is a constant source of future possibilities as are many other contributors. What would be the point of repeating them when you just block them out to repeat your mantra?

    Let’s start with one oft-repeated idea. When women are lifted out of poverty, educated, and have control over their own reproduction, population growth drops dramatically, to below replacement levels in many countries including Australia. The later women have children, and many are now waiting until their 30s (or choosing not to at all), the more this effect will grow.

    Second idea – legalise assisted suicide/voluntary euthenasia for terminally ill people.

  77. Michael Taylor

    There are seven people and one company (plus their employees) who can login as ‘The AIMN Network’. I have no problem with them commenting (or posting articles) under that entity. Why? They have often been the target of threats or abusive emails when their identity was known, in particular if someone had a grudge against their work as a moderator.

  78. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    No, you only think that your thousands of ideas are practical and feasible and Miriam’s thousands of future possibilities are just that. When they or even just one becomes fact then, you both will have something to say.

    As I have explained to Miriam more than once, the population growth rate has halved since its maximum in the sixties but, our population has more than doubled since then. Also, how can you support immigration and our negative replacement rate at the same time.

    The main lack of understanding in this place is in the relationships between energy which, is at the core of Miriam’s contribution, the economy, also related to her contribution and growth. I have provided much material concerning these issues and still, most here do not get it. You, Miriam and others have stated that you do not read the links that I provide but, I read all of yours, hers and as many from others that I can and yet, I am the one who supposedly does not understand while all the blinkered in here always know better.

    The oil age is coming to an end and the era of economic growth, regardless of what every politician is telling us, is over. Get ready.

    Something I read not long ago.

    “Spark’s reasoning for abstaining from having children is two-fold: She does not want to contribute to pre-existing resource depletion by adding another human to this planet, and she does not want to bring a child into a world she sees as doomed.”
    https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/our-planet-is-so-f*cked-that-some-women-are-choosing-to-not-have-kids

    Cheers

  79. Kaye Lee

    The past and the present can be learning experiences to prepare for the future – or for those with no vision, they can be harbingers of doom.

    Once again, you completely ignore the two very easily understandable ideas I put forward to launch straight into your thang.

    “how can you support immigration and our negative replacement rate at the same time.”

    Population is a global issue. Many women that come here are likely to have less children than if they stayed in country of origin. Their daughters will breed later and have less children.

    “The oil age is coming to an end and the era of economic growth, regardless of what every politician is telling us, is over.”

    I certainly hope we are moving away from fossil fuels. Growth does not have to lead to more consumption. The growth in e-books has saved how many trees? I do understand that energy is required in the production and distribution or use of most items. But we can reduce those emissions and that must be our aim.

    And I would absolutely not waste my time reading that link with that sort of a defeatist intro. I support her choice, but I feel sorry that she will never know the joys of parenthood. Each to their own. I doubt I need to read her defeatism though. My children could be the ones to solve the world’s problems. Or at least help to make it a better place 🙂

  80. Miriam English

    Harquebus, your capacity for self-delusion is as robust as ever.

    While I do make suggestions for future technologies (to illustrate that it doesn’t stand still, and that a backwards view is absurd and counterproductive), I also have given many, many examples of things that are working right now. I could embark on an exhaustive list, but you would probably skip over them anyway as you have done with previous posts, as evidenced in your replies. Certainly your comment above indicates you never bother to read them.

    You kid yourself if you believe that you read other people’s links, but that they don’t read yours. I often comment upon your links, and so do others. Your reactions are generally that you will follow up, but when the topic is resurrected later in another thread it almost always comes out that you haven’t bothered. Not that I mind — you’re welcome to remain ignorant. It’s no skin off my nose. I’m just pointing out that you’ve just successfully lied to yourself.

    I have to admit though that I’ve recently so tired of your doom links that I rarely bother to read them anymore because each time I make the mistake of following them they almost invariably lead to either denialists (with possible fossil fuel associations) or to conspiracy theorist idiots who have zero facts and infinite hysteria at their disposal.

    You see yourself as doing a public service sounding the alarm, but that’s just more delusion. Telling people they’re screwed unless they submit to totalitarian eugenics is not a good thing to do no matter which way you want to represent it. There are clearly ways to survive the oncoming problems — I’ve provided long lists of existing technologies and social actions that are being used right now. Your “suggestions” on the other hand are pure delusion. You know they can’t possibly be implemented. And you take great pleasure in denouncing humanity for it. You protest that you don’t take pleasure in it, but it comes through far too clearly whenever you talk about people beginning to fear you’re right.

    What I don’t get is, how can an ostensibly intelligent person so limit their ability to learn? Thousands of solutions are staring you in the face — some of them very big and loud — but you somehow completely ignore them and continue to recite the same doom, doom, doom mantra.

    You really are wrong Harquebus. I’m not saying that to insult you or to win an argument. I’m telling you because you are genuinely making a giant mistake and wasting your life in a pointless scare campaign which will either be utterly worthless or else scare enough people into paralysis that they stop implementing the solutions available to them and bring on the very doom you chant about.

  81. Roswell

    “While there is life there is hope”, so said one of my mentors.

  82. Matters Not

    is a venue where we express opinions

    Agree. Further, it’s a venue where ‘ideas’ – broadly defined – can be explored. Can’t see how ‘names’ or ‘monikers’ add or subtract to that pursuit. But each to …

    As for Harquebus and the repetitions. I can’t understand how he/she deigns to visit. Surely a continuous replay of ‘sermons from the (gun) mount’ – and their subsequent demolitions – would cause both a tactical and strategic rethink. But apparently not.

    Probably, a programming error. Does any contributor know how to deal with that?

  83. Roswell

    I do, Matters Not. Turn modem off. Leave turned off for six months. Problem fixed.

  84. Matters Not

    Possibly Roswell. What becomes apparent – is that a continual ‘reboot’ doesn’t cause a ‘rethink’ – even in the short term.

    I await the next sermon. Guaranteed to be a repeat – of a repeat – of a repeat – of a repeat – of a re…

  85. Miriam English

    Matters Not, Harquebus is definitely a he. I’ve communicated with him outside AIMN.

    It would appear that he’s so heavily invested in the idea of doom that he can no longer imagine anything else. He searches for things that satisfy his confirmation bias and dismisses anything that conflicts with it. This is what religious people do. The irony is that he vigorously hates religion, yet does exactly what they do.

    Having done this for years he possibly even feels hemmed in by it. He can’t admit he’s wrong now — it would feel like defeat. He doesn’t realise it isn’t defeat, but a chance to grow. His stagnant belief is suffocating him. He has stopped learning because this belief is the tail that wags him now. It won’t permit him to face reality any more than a religious person can face their belief being wrong. He is too firmly wedded to it. He sends out regular doom updates to some unknown number of people, and has done so for years.

    When Kaye pointed out some studies that demolished Harquebus’ reason for believing that solar photovoltaics were a net energy loss, he ignored it, mistakenly insisting that those studies were themselves flawed and he refused to budge, refusing to believe that his favored study was wrong. Worse, he falsely generalised from photovoltaics to all renewable energy sources, saying they are impossible due to physics. He disregards vegetation, which not only survives and expands, but produces sufficient surplus energy that they sustain all animal life on Earth and created all the fossil fuels he is so mesmerised by. He disregards the centuries long history of windmills, in the past built with suboptimal materials like wood and cloth, yet still delivering net positive output.

    How does someone get through to someone who has manufactured such a perfectly crafted impermeable bubble around himself?

  86. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    “The growth in e-books has saved how many trees?”
    Actually, books are a good way to store carbon. We should also build more houses from timber. Plant lots and lots of trees.

    “Scientists warn that the minerals needed for technologies such as cell phones and mobile devices may run out in the next few decades.”
    http://naturalnews.com/2017-03-27-world-rapidly-running-out-of-rare-minerals-needed-to-manufacture-cell-phones-and-mobile-devices.html

    “There’s not one step of the rare earth mining process that is not disastrous for the environment.”
    http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/big-winds-dirty-little-secret-rare-earth-minerals/

    Miriam English
    “Telling people they’re screwed unless they submit to totalitarian eugenics”
    Putting words in my mouth and distorting what I say is your usually tactic when you can not produce a valid argument. You really piss me off when you do this. Congratulations. You found something that works.

    “Thousands of solutions are staring you in the face” except, they are not solutions. They are just more hopium of which, you are smoking too much of.

    Time will tell and if our current predicament and recent events is anything to go by, one would have to say that you and my other critics are deluding yourselves.

    “in other words, if there were only ‘green’ sources of electricity, there would be no grid.”
    https://www.theautomaticearth.com/2017/02/absolution-deceit-and-renewables/

    Cheers.

  87. Matters Not

    Miriam English re your comment:

    Harquebus is definitely a he.

    It Matters Not.

    My comments above still stand. Gender is not relevant.

    Sad!

  88. Harquebus

    Miriam English

    Windmills of yor did not require vast amounts of fossil fuels to manufacture and the energy garnered did little more than lift water a few feet, grind grains and cut timber.

    I do not ignore the information that you and others provide me. The fact that they are flawed and you can’t see it tells me a lot.

    Here’s some more hopium for you.
    Copper oxide on silican Pv panels.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170321123825.htm

    I have read thousands of such articles since before the internet when my pocket money was spent on science magazines and I am still reading about them only. Visions of a techno-utopian future has yet to be seen let alone arrive.

    It’s not my bubble that you are seeing, it is the inside of your own.

    Cheers.

  89. paulwalter

    Kaye Lee: “The past and present can be learning experiences for the future”.

    This is explains why this has been a time for epiphanies for me.

    Not so long ago I learned from American friends that a corporation can be a person.’

    Last week I learned that a river can be a person.

    Now I discover that a blogsite can be a person. Can persons be persons, or are we excluded?

    what can account for this sudden proliferation of Animism?

    ………………………………………………………………………………………….

    I have a little conversation chirping about in what passes for my mind. Very Clarke and Dawe or Pythonesque, it is:

    Paul Walter sits at desk, suddenly a squeaky sound makes its way into his ears.

    The AIM Network: “Paul, I am bored with reviewing postings, I yearn to talk poetry with someone. How do you feel about it”?

    Paul W. “But how can I talk poetry with you when you are an organisation? Won’t you argue with yourself on even basic definitions?”

    The AIM Network: “We, eh I, know. You think it will be like that bit in the Exorcist with all the demons instead that little girl they call “the piglet”.

    Paul W. “Ïf I were to say some thing I might offend your feelings, even though you are a network”?

    The AIM Network: “You do that already”.

    Paul W. “But how can I offend a thing; an abstraction at best”?

    The AIM Network: “How dare you call me an abstraction, much less a “thing”? My microchips just overloaded in rage You wait , buddy. Pretty soon you cattle will be shoved in a “gunny-sack and dumped off the continental shelf”.

    Paul W. “Ït hardly surprises. Most blogsites already have a low regard for their posters. No surprise though, we flesh and blooders knew our time was nigh and most talk on poetry is meaningless anyway, so the cosmos does not undergo a fundamental change, just rids itself of superfluous responses to poetry, I suppose”.

    The Aim Network: “Just be grateful I am not a corporation, I would sue you.”

    Paul W (aggrieved) “How so”

    AIM Network “Ïf I was a river, I could drown you, you bastard!!”.

    AIM Network (continues)

    ” No man is a rock
    or Island unto himself…
    Ask not for whom the bell tolls
    It tolls for thee (whhirrr, click-click”..ping..THUNKK!!”.

  90. Jack Straw

    Michael; I think the magnificent 7 should get new identities as the Aim Network logo should only be used for Blog directives,warnings statements etc or writing the odd article under that banner. I think Roswell is one the 7 though he doesn’t always show great judgement. Just a thought.

  91. Keith

    The same mind set that argues for huge mines in Queensland is very obvious in the new Trump Executive Order in relation to the EPA; though, Trump takes such a mindset further. Some extreme right wing ding bats are stating that Rachel Carson (whose seminal book Silent Spring) has done huge damage to economies, and her work is based on falsehoods.

    The impact of Trump’s order will be to cull a world that is seen to be over populated. The Adani coal mine will help in this process.
    Governments generally have been quite tardy in acting towards reaching their promises reached during the Paris accord. The plan had been to try and keep temperature increase down to 2C.

    Jeff Masters suggests that 3C above pre industrial temperature is a likely outcome just taking Trump’s reckless Executive order into account.

    “… we’ll be lucky to hold global warming to an extremely dangerous 3°C above pre-industrial levels, even if all of the promises made by the 195 nations that signed the Paris Agreement are met. That agreement counted on strong additional actions and leadership by the biggest emitting nations to force additional cuts in greenhouse gas emissions. Lack of inspirational American leadership, as glaringly evident in Mr. Trump’s latest executive order, will hurt global efforts to meet even the grossly inadequate goal of keeping global warming below 3°C, ….”

    http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=3591#commenttop

  92. Jack Straw

    Miriam: There is No Doubt that Harquebus is a Fundamentalist and I think he is lazy. Though he would denounce this. It’s all very well to provide links for this or that. But if he can’t extrapolate their meanings in his own language in written form that we understand then all bets are off. He’s a lousy communicator.Though he may have a lot of information. Cheers

  93. Miriam English

    Harquebus, you’re already living in that technological utopia. You just can’t see it. Don’t worry, you have that in common with most people.

    – Even impoverished farmers have an inexpensive pocket-sized computer that dwarfs in capability the floor full of computers that my Dad used to manage decades ago.
    – I have solar panels that run various things, including one that pumps water up the hill to the house.
    – I can easily, freely communicate with friends all over the planet who I’ve never met in the flesh, and do so without the cost of using the telephone.
    – I have built 3D virtual worlds where people can meet while wearing imaginary bodies of a dog, an emu, a human, or anything else.
    – I can single-handedly make videos and publish them online (YouTube).
    – I write books and publish them on my own website.
    – Using free software (Blender) I can make high quality 3D rendered graphics for standalone video or for insertion into existing video with “move-matching”.
    – I can use a free, high quality computer operating system (Linux), and even design my own.
    – My computer talks to me.
    – There are now self-driving electric cars.
    – We have the beginnings of genuine AI, with them already being able to follow loose instructions and describe images and videos in plain English.
    – We live in the most peaceful time in history with less violent crime than ever before.
    – There is more widespread concern for the environment and the plight of other humans than ever before.
    – Disease has been reduced to historic lows, as has extreme poverty.
    – We have robots roaming about the solar system investigating various planets, moons, asteroids, the Sun, and our own planet.
    – We’ve found thousands of planets around other stars.
    – We have built microscopic machines that harvest energy from brownian motion,
    – arrays of microscopic hinged mirrors that form unusual displays,
    – sub-microscopic objects and holes that completely alter the electrical properties of the materials they are in, letting lasers and other devices be built out of nano-sized geometry.
    – We have inexpensive 3D printers (I have one).
    – We have the greatest encyclopedia ever (Wikipedia) freely available to anyone with an internet connection,
    – and enormous ebook (Project Gutenberg) and audiobook (LibriVox) collections with tens of thousands of volumes available to anyone for free download.

    Step back to when I was a child and nobody on Earth had a personal computer and all those things above existed only in the fevered dreams of science fiction writers. We truly are living in a technological utopia.

    But as with other things, your eyes are too firmly closed to see it.
    You deny hope and give it an insulting name. You feed yourself instead with unremitting visions of doom, as alarmists have for thousands of years.

    There are still problems, some of them big and very scary, but we are fixing them. To say we’re not is to deny reality.

  94. helvityni

    According to some posters here Harquebus is the most detestable blogger they have ever come across…

    They can’t stand the man, but can’t let go of him either; makes me think he’s the most popular person here, just going by the attention he gets…
    I don’t quite get this H’ obsession…?

  95. Johno

    Helvityni
    I agree. Why are people taking him on so much. I agree with many of his ideas and disagree with some as well,,,,… and…..so.

  96. Harquebus

    Jack Straw
    Perhaps you are a bad listener.

    Miriam English
    We are living with technology and its consequences, it is not a utopia.
    You did not need to tell me that you do not follow the links that I provide. It is evident in your comments and as I have previously stated, you and others will learn the hard way. It didn’t have to be.
    I do appreciate your efforts in producing this article. A worthy cause.

    helvityni
    Time and time again, yours is the voice of reason.
    Thanking you.

    Cheers.

  97. Roswell

    Harquebus, go easy on Jack. He doesn’t always show great judgement. 😜

    But neither do we all.

  98. Jack Straw

    H Lets say I am for this argument as many people are. Wouldn’t you want your information being better understood.It may be understood by yourself though I think you need to play Devils Advocate with yourself before you press Post Comment .

  99. Miriam English

    Good point, helvityni. I think I’m done with Harquebus. Stopping reacting to his absurd doom-laden posts will probably bring the kind or relief felt when ceasing to bang one’s head against a wall.

  100. Harquebus

    Jack Straw
    Decades of propaganda is hard to erase and perhaps the knowledge that I have gained over the same period is too much for some to take in all at once.

    I used to harp on about computers a lot until someone told me that they were just nodding in agreement to be polite and waiting for me to finish. Talking over people’s heads is one of my faults. Thank you for reminding me.

    Miriam English
    We will butt heads again. We are too alike in some respects not to.

    Cheers.

  101. randalstella

    He’s got plenty of reasons for doom. He’d get some of them here.

  102. Kaye Lee

    Your arrogance is astonishing H.

  103. randalstella

    Lay off, can you?
    The implication of the piece above is that the ALP do not give a stuff about your ‘good ideas’, so long as you vote for them.
    That should be a consequent discussion.
    Not obsessing over Harquebus. He won’t destroy the planet.

  104. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    As is your ignorance.
    Cheers.

  105. paulwalter

    On thethread topic. I have to admit abit a sleep and a rethink has me more sympathetic to the Qld government, given the amount of LNP interference that seems to be coming from Canberra.

    The thing has become politicised as Turnbull and his friends attempt to grow a wedge and leave Palaszczcuk holding the baby. The key to understanding is the billion dollar loan instigated from Canberra, that keeps the thing alive and why that has been done.

    The fossil fuels industry wants the coal mine, the liberals are happy to risk squandering a billion, a small price to pay to be paid for a win on several fronts.

  106. Kaye Lee

    randalstella,

    I have just reread all my comments on this thread. Most of mine are discussing Adani and the Queensland government’s decision to back them. Harquebus is the one who ALWAYS ignores the topic of an article to repeat ad nauseum his mantra – he hasn’t mentioned Adani once. I find your categorisation unfair.

    The idea that H is the suppository of all wisdom who single-handedly knows more that the combined knowledge of all scientists past, present and future, is laughable. His inflated opinion of himself leads him to hijack every article on this site. His assertion that no-one else is smart enough to understand what he is saying is arrogant in the extreme. He doesn’t promote discussion. He shuts it down.

  107. Roswell

    I say this in all seriousness, but the site owners need to put in place a mechanism that prevents a person from derailing every post with the same old argument.

    I study the stats and traffic flow of this site closely. It’s remarkable how much traffic stops visiting the site while a person is here dominating and derailing discussion.

  108. Miriam English

    Harquebus calling Kaye ignorant in blind tit-for tat is not only childish it is incorrect. She certainly is not ignorant.

    Her calling you arrogant was simply noting the breathtaking level of superiority you assume in saying your decades of knowledge are too much for others to absorb and that your difficulty here is likey because you talk above other people’s intelligence. That is astonishingly arrogant. I’ll wager several people here surpass you in intelligence and background knowledge. You applaud yourself too enthusiastically.

  109. Jack Straw

    Big Ego’s Obstinate and Low Self Esteem; That is the trouble with some Men.

  110. Harquebus

    Roswell
    I assume that your comment refers to me.
    The business as usual scenario in which we are trapped will ensure that theAIMN will eventually disappear. This is regrettable but, unavoidable. The human race suffering the same fate is much more concerning to me so, I will continue to do what I do for as long as I can and I feel no shame in doing it.

    Miriam English
    Once more you are distorting what I have said which was, “too much for some to take in all at once”.
    Is this the best tactic that you can come up with; distortions and misrepresentations?

    Reading is not enough; try comprehending for a change. Oh, I forgot; you don’t even do that. You and Kaye Lee both ignore everything that does not fit within your warped and twisted sense of reality and then claim the moral high ground. Arrogance and ignorance in the one place. Truly astonishing.

    Poke me and I’ll poke back.

    Cheers.

  111. Kaye Lee

    You do not control this site Harquebus and you do not dictate what will happen here. As you are already aware, push it too far and you will find yourself in time out again.

  112. Miriam English

    Harquebus, I summarised, I didn’t distort or misrepresent.
    Same old blah blah blah.

  113. Jack Straw

    I think it’s “time out” for you kids and go to your room. No! No! that’s not a good idea there is probably a computer in there. Maybe it’s time to go for a walk if it’s not raining.

  114. Roswell

    Harquebus, it’s up to the owners to do as they wish. It’s not up to you.

  115. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    What was this then? “you assume in saying your decades of knowledge are too much for others to absorb and that your….”

    My latest read completed just 5 minutes ago. On the off chance that some might be interested.

    “The status quo is falling apart for profoundly structural reasons: promises made when growth was robust, debt was modest, energy was cheap and abundant and the work force was far more numerous than those dependent on the central state’s “pay as you go” pension and welfare programs– these promises made in yesteryear can no longer be kept, regardless of who’s in power.
    We cannot get blood out of a turnip, and those who claim we can are only exacerbating the coming crises with their fantasies and denials.”
    http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com.au/2017/03/the-overlapping-crises-are-coming.html

    Roswell
    I am not standing in anyone’s way. You can all do as you please.

    Cheers.

  116. Jack Straw

    Hey Roswell I am not a fan of Harquebus. But you seem too eager to use your supposed power.What I recommend is that people stop responding to him and have some self control if it effects you so much..And Harquebus try to stay on topic or write your own articles.

  117. Kaye Lee

    What does that post have to do with this article Harquebus?

    “Decades of propaganda is hard to erase and perhaps the knowledge that I have gained over the same period is too much for some to take in all at once.”

    “your decades of knowledge are too much for others to absorb”

    Your comments were not distorted or misrepresented.

  118. Jack Straw

    I give Up.

  119. Miriam English

    H, doom doom doom, blah blah blah.

  120. Mick Byron

    Regarding Harquebus
    I may well be the odd one out here but amongst the mountain of comments from the writer I have found some very interesting data and statistics,Enough to make me take a deeper look at my actions and belief systems and to view things in a different perspective.He/She seems to be well read and I have yet to see a failure to produce a link to back up comments.
    I regard the internet as a source of learning and I think I have gained a wider knowledge of the world and its ills from a number of posters including Harquebus.
    To try in any way to negate Harquebus comments would tend to present a lop sided perspective to readers

  121. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    This, “too much for some to take in all at once”, is not the same as this, “too much for others to absorb”.

    “Your comments were not distorted or misrepresented.”
    Bloody bullshit they weren’t.

    Miriam English
    You prove my point.
    Thank you.

    Mick Byron
    Thank you for your support.

    Cheers.

  122. Kyran

    With regard to the ‘legal’ aspect and further to ‘John’s’ post at 5.59 pm, 28/3, this Adrian Burragubba fellow is quite an inspiration. In the off chance you missed John’s link, here it is again.

    http://www.communityrun.org/petitions/don-t-let-adani-build-their-huge-coal-mine-on-our-traditional-land

    What is disheartening is the progress of the petition. Whilst the document itself is undated, it would appear it has been online for over two years. The timeline at the bottom suggests there were 50k signatures two years ago, 100k signatures one year ago and it currently stands at nearly 105k signatures.
    There was an article on SBS from October last year, detailing the ‘legal’ time line in the myriad of actions taken against the adani debacle. Whilst the time line is now dated, it serves to underscore repeated attempts, at state and federal levels, to not only extinguish environmental protest through the courts, but to extinguish native title legislation, and any ensuing court protest.

    http://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/nitv-news/article/2016/10/26/adanis-carmichael-coal-mine-story-so-far

    With regard to the ‘money’ aspect, as I understand it, the money is being offered through the Northern Australia Infrastructure Facility (NAIF). This is a $5bil facility purposed with developing infrastructure across Northern Australia. Are we meant to reasonably accept that 20% of this funding is to be allocated to a company that appears unable to attract any financing on a commercial basis? Is the NAIF, effectively, a lender of the last resort? Gina must be so happy.

    There is another aspect that wasn’t mentioned in your article. Health. There is a condition known as ‘black lung’. It was declared ‘eradicated’ in Australia in 1984. In recent years, we have discovered it was not eradicated. Successive Queensland and NSW governments simply stopped looking for it. Of significance is the number of recent incidents reported in both Qld and NSW mines. Most, not all, are underground mines. If you care to search ‘black lung’, the background is truly shocking.
    Back to the adani debacle. Several of the proposed mines in the Galilee area are underground mines. Notwithstanding the glacial speed of the Qld and NSW investigation of the ‘new’ outbreak, they have yet to amend the law. The existing mines are ‘self-regulating’. Got that? The mine operators decide what is ‘safe’.

    “Queensland mines have higher legal dust limits (3mg per cubic metre) than compared to international best practice, to New South Wales (2.5mg per cubic metre), and even the United States (1.5mg per cubic metre).”

    “But even those numbers are not adhered to in Queensland with clear evidence that self-regulation of dust levels has failed coalmine workers, with mining companies choosing to test at times of lower production or when mines are in maintenance.”

    https://www.cfmeu.org.au/news/1-15-coal-miners-may-have-black-lung-disease

    If the adani debacle proceeds, they will get to measure such things as the health of their employees and those living around their work sites. There are numerous reports of ‘black lung’ in India associated with India’s mining sites and their mining practices, many of which are adani operated. Now we want to give them free license to work here.

    The workers get black lung. Those living near the sites are exposed to that same prospect. And the mineral they are mining gives black lung to the planet.

    Thank you again, Ms English, and commenters. Asides from ‘jobson grothe’, are there any upsides to this insanity? Take care

  123. Roswell

    Mick, Harquebus certainly does offer some interesting stuff and what he does with his life to make this a better planet is indeed admirable. I take my hat off to him for that.

    But …

    See for yourself.

    Stick around. You’ll see it.

  124. Miriam English

    Mick, I’m pretty sure I could carefully pick websites to “prove” anything I wanted. Harquebus’ links are mostly to sites that are unreliable. Those people, like him, have an agenda of fear. They paralyse.

    I’ve had the argument too many times with otherwise intelligent people who’ve fallen prey to that kind of shit and have given up. Their usual reason is they think we’re all screwed anyway, so they figure they might as well live it up because it doesn’t make any difference.

    I’ve generally been able to convince such people that we’re not screwed. I show them how many things are changing for the better and although things are admittedly in a very dangerous state at the moment, there are more people than ever before working to try to fix it. In most cases I’m able to convince those people to change their tack and reduce their consumption instead of giving up.

    The doom, doom, doom of Harquebus is wrong. He doesn’t listen to all the masses of evidence that we are actually turning things around by adopting efficient, low energy solutions and by reducing our consumption of food and other physical goods. In the case of food, dramatically cutting our comsumption can actually extend our lives and undo a lot of the harm we’re doing ourselves. China is pushing for efficiency and renewables like the world leader they are becoming. USA is on the way out to become the white trash of the world, and we in Australia are tagging along. I have a friend in Africa who is amazed at the way they are adopting efficiency and renewables. Europe is far ahead of the game in efficiency and renewables. Change is happening. Doom is not inevitable. Harquebus is wrong. He only listens to one song. It is boring. And it is wrong.

  125. Miriam English

    Kyran, excellent points. I should have mentioned Black Lung. I had no idea Queensland standards were so bad on coal particulate pollution.

    Trish, if you’re still here, do you think Australian workers should be happily embracing such deadly work? (Though Adani will actually be employing very few.) Wouldn’t it be better for them to be employed in clean work, “mining the sun” as they say at Broken Hill, where they have one of Australia’s largest solar arrays powering much of the town.

  126. Mick Byron

    Miriam English
    I’m not here to pick fights or take sides and as I said in an earlier comment I appreciate being educated by more knowledgeable people than me.
    My problem is I can see both you and Harquebus have valid points and I learn. If I may I live in a rural area of the Shoalhaven and being a bricklayer have managed to pick up a few hectares and build my own carbon neutral home.I am probably about 40% self sufficient with vegetables and 60% meat.My neighbours however are not and in colder weather it is not unusual to see a dozen or so using wood fired stoves and heating on my drive to town.
    I think science does hold the answer but question whether it will be soon enough to solve problems as the majority need to be on board not a minority and the cost in some regards is prohibitive for average families an it seems will be so into the foreseeble future.
    A few neighbours I’ve spoken to would prefer to burn free wood from their properties than invest in solar and do not see the benefit of raising their own food when cheap supermarkets flood them with catalogues.
    I have intended to take the next step into electric vehicles but find the cost prohibitive and the recharging scarce and I can’t see a cheaper model arriving anytime soon {$210,000 for a Tesla S with max battery capacity}
    Globally with a huge number not having access to clean drinking water and adequate food, I don’t think they would rate anything more important than getting liquids and nourishment and really don’t think far past surviving today let alone saving a dying planet
    However may I say keep up the good work as people like yourself AND Harquebus provide this old tradie with a valuable education

  127. Miriam English

    Good for you, Mick.

    More and more people are realising there is a problem. Increasing numbers are learning how to fix it. I don’t think supermarkets are really much of a problem. They can be part of the solution. How else are we going to feed the people in cities? That said, buying local and growing your own are almost always better.

    Yes, it horrifies me how many people want to burn wood. Julie wants to install a wood-burning water heater here. I’ve argued the advantages of a cheap solar water heater, to no avail. She owns the house.

    Elon Musk is working as hard as he can to bring the price of Tesla cars down to where everybody can afford them. That’s his target. It’s just a matter of time.

    Don’t underestimate the world’s poor. Now that they have access to cheap smartphones they’re becoming literate and environmentally conscious. The protests against coal-fired power stations in India were not made by the wealthy. The numbers of truly desperately poor has been falling for some time. And as their lives improve they learn about the world we share.

    Australia and yanks and the Brits are poisoned by the Murdoch media. That isn’t the case in many parts of the world. His media empire is failing — it’s gradually going broke and seems to stay above water by constant infusions of money from other arms of his empire. To my mind Murdoch is the biggest enemy, along with the fossil fuel corporations.

    People like Harquebus are duped into giving up hope. I know he thinks he’s right, but he isn’t. Nobody knows the future. There are increasing numbers of people working to improve things and new technologies are introduced every day. I don’t know that we’ll succeed in fixing things, but I’m certain that nobody can foretell that we’re doomed. It isn’t over until it’s over, and until then we must keep trying to fix it.

  128. Jack Straw

    Miriam I think your looking for blew and attention.

  129. paulwalter

    Amazing how often Kyran rescues these threads. The NAIF is an old conservative pipe dream given financial legs by conservatives in power, but it is not to be confused with the Australian public, who cause as much harm being what they are. But then it is easy to blame the public when you think of the mess msm is in, otherwise they would be so naive about NAIF and divide and conquer between aboriginal groups and in fighting between progressives in general.

  130. Miriam English

    Jack, nope, I’m not. Why would you think I am?

    I do admit I’ve become quite exasperated with Harquebus and have replied angrily. Perhaps I shouldn’t have, but I think I did pretty well for quite a while considering his habit of derailing discussions with his doom garbage. I wasted far too much time on carefully answering him as one would a rational person. It was a mistake. He may be rational about many things but he certainly is not rational when it comes to his doom mantra.

    I actually don’t like personal attention; it’s why I live alone out in the country, venturing out of the house just a few times a month.

  131. Jack Straw

    What area of Oz do you live Miriam ?

  132. Roswell

    Amazing how often Kyran rescues these threads.

    Absolutely. And I thank him for it.

    Conversely, it’s a shame that someone is always putting them in a position that they need rescuing.

  133. Roswell

    Hey Roswell … you seem too eager to use your supposed power.

    Wrong. I’m not eager at all.

    “Supposed power”. Wrong again. I was asked to be a moderator and to do exactly what I’m doing. I would rather be sitting back quietly reading a book.

    I only came back as a moderator/admin to help out while a couple of the site owners were overseas and while one had a prolonged illness.

    But what really annoys me is that when I comment people always assume I’m commenting as a moderator. Someone even said I shouldn’t be allowed to comment. What they don’t realise is that most of my commenting is done while I’m not moderating or doing any admin.

  134. paulwalter

    Well it drifts, doesn’t it Roswell? I think the topic is important, so when more sniping and retaliation happens, I just wait till someone turns up who has something worthwhile to say again. I really want to avoid getting dragged into the stoushing, having made the mistake of getting involved too often in the past.

  135. Jack Straw

    Roswell
    Harquebus, it’s up to the owners to do as they wish. It’s not up to you.

    Plus you can remove your own post’s. Did you do that today?

  136. helvityni

    What I found a pretty un-grownup, uncivil response by a blogger here few days ago was someone calling Harquebus ‘a f-cking disgrace’.

    Disagree or ignore someone’s comment, but there’s no need for a childish name-calling.

  137. Roswell

    No I didn’t, Jack. I’ve removed nothing today.

  138. Michael Taylor

    helvityni, you’ll find that that comment was moderated out. We can’t control what people say – we want them to have more control over what they say – but once such comments are seen by one of the moderators they are immediately edited.

  139. Miriam English

    Jack, I live in rural QLD.

  140. Miriam English

    Jack, anybody can remove their own post up until 4 minutes after posting it.
    I’ve done so before when I’ve realised I was making a mistake.

  141. Deanna Jones

    Helvi, I’m sure it’s very easy for a straight person, to not be offended and fly off the handle, in response to overtly homophobic commentary (which by the way was not moderated!).

  142. Jack Straw

    It’s a great Egalitarian blog Michael.

    But you have the ability to; don’t you Roswell? Sorry I thought there was one of yours removed today. I thought I read something like that if H didn’t behave he could easily be banned from the sight. Sorry I must have dreamt it.

    M Flooding up there I believe ?

  143. Mick Byron

    Miriam English
    Thank you for your considered response but it seems if Harquebus is the harbinger of doom at time it could be your belief in the power of future technology turn you into the future wish fairy,
    One part of your response “Don’t underestimate the world’s poor. Now that they have access to cheap smartphones they’re becoming literate and environmentally conscious” doesn’t quite fit the comment I made
    my comment was that the thirsty and hungry had little reason to worry about the future if they may not be alive next week
    For a lot of those, Harquebus’s end time will be a reality

    783 million people do not have access to clean water and almost 2.5 billion do not have access to adequate sanitation. 6 to 8 million people die annually from the consequences of disasters and water-related diseases.
    Dirty water kills 5,000 children a day. Nearly two million children a year die for want of clean water and proper sanitation while the world’s poor often pay more for their water than people in Britain or the US

    Just today the UN reported

    Nearly 27 million people in Nigeria, Somalia, South Sudan and Yemen do not have access to safe water, which can be as deadly to severely malnourished children as a lack of food, UNICEF says.
    again another report says
    In 2015, 800 million people continue to go to bed hungry each night. This means that one in nine people on this planet do not have access to the nutrients and vitamins essential for proper development and health.

    The vast majority of the world’s hungry people live in the developing world: 780 million people, or almost 96 percent of the world’s chronically hungry and undernourished population.

    Even in developed countries

    “In 2015: 42.2 million Americans lived in food insecure households, including 29.1 million adults and 13.1 million children. 13 percent of households (15.8 million households) were food insecure”

    They have had access to smartphones for quite some time.

    Your beliefs in a better tomorrow through technology may well be the future but for many of those statistics above Harquebus’s doomtime may be as little as one meal or one drink of water away

  144. Roswell

    Jack, wasn’t me. I can remove them though, but on this occasion it wasn’t me.

    I recall someone saying H would be sent to the bin, but that wasn’t me either. Scroll up and you might find it.

  145. Jack Straw

    Got it. It was Kaye

    You do not control this site Harquebus and you do not dictate what will happen here. As you are already aware, push it too far and you will find yourself in time out again.
    LOL

    Glad I’m being paid to spend so much time on this Blog today.

  146. Harquebus

    Technology is something that I am qualified to talk about. I know how it works right down to the micro-transistor level, what is involved in its manufacture and have a good understanding of the complex industrial and energy supply chains that enable it and our modern industrial civilization to function.

    I have been banned from here twice and sin binned about 5 or 6 times. Mostly by the same person who threatened me with it earlier. Why do I keep coming back?
    Answer: Good people hang out here. Author and moderators included. Vigorous debate, in my opinion, adds to the experience and if I can gain a convert or two along the way then, so much the better.

    Michael Taylor
    Thank you for deleting that abusive comment but, all you have done is deny me the opportunity to respond and argue against them. Off course, there is always the possibility that was your intention. 😉 Profanity is easily edited if that was your concern.
    I don’t mind being called names, it happens regularly with those who do not want their status quo challenged. Being misrepresented upsets me more.

    Keep up the good fight.
    Cheers.

  147. Michael Taylor

    H’, the comment wasn’t deleted. The profanity was just edited. You still had the opportunity to respond, and you probably did.

  148. Harquebus

    Michael Taylor
    Appreciated. Many thanks.
    Cheers.

  149. paulwalter

    No one else is interested in discussing how Australia and TNC’s interact any more so I will add this to the posting I oftered on Qld sugar this arvo in the hope that Kyran or some other adult may want to read it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/mar/30/labor-warns-sugar-deal-could-offend-free-trade-agreement-with-singapore

    As an old Labor supporter this comes across as an ultimate betrayal. No doubt the likes of Trish Corry will agree and also mourn the final abandoning of credibility by the ALP and wonder how it can ever hope to regain that on anything else it ever does.

  150. Miriam English

    Mick, I happily admit that I have high hopes, but at the same time I don’t have illusions about the danger of our situation. I have a clear understanding of the threats and the ways it could all go horribly wrong. The big difference between me and Harquebus is that I see many possible futures and think it is smart to work towards the ones that have a happy outcome, whereas Harquebus is absolutely certain of doom.

    He greatly overstates his technological knowledge while having little understanding of the social and technological changes afoot which could make the future less bumpy. (I don’t mean he’s being dishonest; I think he genuinely believes that he has broad technological knowledge.) What H does is to preach his fundamentalist certainty, and like most certainty — especially that which depends upon the unknowable future — it is wrong.

  151. Matters Not

    paulwalter, this ‘sugar marketing’ dispute is not new – nor even recent. Indeed it’s had political legs for approximately 3 years. George Christensen’s been raising it for some time but as you suggest he’s run into an ideological brick wall in the shape of ‘let the market’ rule. (That there’s no ‘market’ when monopolies are involved is simply an inconvenient truth.)

    George was hung out to dry for a very long time. He couldn’t get a favourable result. The market ideology reigned ‘supreme’. Morrison (and Joyce) was even boasting about a successful resolution only hours before the cave-in.

    Enter Hanson. Nothing like sophisticated analysis for her – just proceeded on the basis that PHON had some crucial Senate numbers and was prepared to ‘bargain’ in order to gain popularity in ‘sugar seats’. Objectively, she’s had a great win. And there’s more wins on the horizon as a result.

    As for the ALP response – talking about breeching a Singaporean free trade agreement – demonstrates political ineptitude. (Using Joel as a lead speaker is always fraught.) The sugar farmers in the Burdekin and surrounds don’t give a rat’s ar@e about those esoteric ‘agreements’. What they care about is that they might get an extra $100 a ton rather than sitting back and allowing Wilmar – (Australia’s largest raw sugar producer and one of the top 10 producers in the world) – to take the cream.

  152. Harquebus

    Miriam English

    As you admit to only venturing out a few times a month, I can only conclude that most of your information comes from the internet as it does with me. If this be the case then, your opinions and conclusions are no better than mine. It is just as easy to carefully select articles and opinions that support your arguments as it is for me to select those that support mine. The difference is, I do read those that support your opinions but, you do not bother with those that do not. Yours is limited world view and is why your arguments are unbalanced and invariably fail.

    Only you call it doom, I refer to it as systemic failure and eventual collapse but, it does not have to mean the end of humanity. I hope to be around for the rebuild if, the changing climate and its subsequent impacts don’t get me first. This is when your knowledge will be valuable. I hope that you will still be around to share it.

    It is only recently that my opinion has changed from limited hope inevitable decline. Here is why.

    “Whilst total global oil (all liquids) production currently appears to be still growing slowly, the energy required by the global oil industry is growing faster, and the net energy available for work by the end user is decreasing rapidly.
    http://www.feasta.org/2017/01/22/end-of-the-oilocene-the-demise-of-the-global-oil-industry-and-of-the-global-economic-system-as-we-know-it/

    I have posted this link for you before, a waste of time then and probably still is now but, I hope that you will take the time. The author actually favors renewable energy and is the only disagreement that I have with it.

    By not factoring this phenomenon, you are ignoring the root cause of slowing economic growth, mounting debts and the subsequent severe consequences that are already making headlines. It is what is going to kill your renewable energy dream and you know nothing of it because, you do not want to know.

    If our inglorious leaders would acknowledge this and act accordingly, we still might get away with a hard landing and my outlook would be more positive but, they are not.

    Cheers.

  153. paulwalter

    Wilmar is a Singapore corporation using monopoly powers and also remember what what Fitzgibbon was saying re an FTA agreement most us have not had explained to us and for which we received no consultation from our masters- quite the opposite?

    As for Hanson, she is the most visible example of the swamp that is Qld politics and aussie politics also, when you think about it. I can’t help wondering if the penalty rates politics was intended to provoke Labor into exactly this sort of rash response.

    It’s as well the LNP in Canberra are even bigger village idiots, as we have discovered today with Cash and Morrison re penalty rates, minimum wage and tax cuts for the rich.

    But thanks, I welcomed the input on some thing akin to the thread topic, albeit more to do with the subhuman level of politics that mediates the bad decision making of our so called leaders.

  154. Kaye Lee

    “Yours is limited world view and is why your arguments are unbalanced and invariably fail.”

    Rolls eyes.

    “I have been banned from here twice and sin binned about 5 or 6 times. Mostly by the same person who threatened me with it earlier.”

    Excuse me? Wrong again sunshine. But facts have never been your strong suit.

  155. silkworm

    Just watched Michael Moore’s film Where to Invade Next. It is one of the most inspirational films I have ever seen. It’s available on SBS On Demand.

  156. Kaye Lee

    silkworm, I just read the preview and it makes me want to watch it which I will do over the weekend.. I love the idea of celebrating what countries do well. I think I sometimes forget how to do that when I spend too much time reading about politics.

    I will watch tomorrow but what I get from the review is that he is wandering the world collecting everyone’s good ideas that are working well. What a great note on which to go to bed.

  157. Miriam English

    Harquebus, so many errors in logic in what you said.

    I don’t only get my information from the internet, I also read paper scientific journals and technical books in addition to the internet, but even if I did only use the internet your statement still doesn’t hold. You tend to frequent sites that focus on doom and conspiracies. I spend my time on science and technology, particularly computer technology, but also biosciences, space sciences, climate science, renewable energy technology, and general electronics.

    It’s obvious that you quite often don’t read other people’s links. I used to read your links, but have grown tired of being sent to yet another scaremonger site with nothing to back up their claims of doom. Now I rarely follow them, though occasionally still do.

    The increasing cost of oil extraction increasing is nothing new. It is one of the main reasons why we need to complete the move to renewable sources as soon as possible. But in your haste to dismiss any solutions that will allow us to avert disaster you’ll insist (illogically) that renewable sources don’t work. Of course that puts you in a different universe from most of the world’s scientists and engineers…

  158. Johno

    Miriam
    All the links I have read from H (albeit not many) seem ligit and sensible. The comment on this article that really pissed me off came from Trish Corry. Does not Trish understanded anything about Climate Change or is she getting sucked in to the denial rhetoric. A bunch of people working in a massive dirty hole in the ground is Trish’s idea of a labour force utopia. H’s response (job destruction) imho was very sane.
    metadatalata comment on March 30, 2017 at 3:38 pm Day to Day Politics: Oh no what a bloody shocker also seemed very sane regarding humanity’s attitude towards work and money.

  159. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    If that be the case then, my apologies. Does theAIMN keep stats on such things. I would be interested.

    I recall my first banishment which was implemented by you and our peak oil debate that initiated it. I have a copy of the Australian Government Peak Oil Report which you refused to believe existed and banned me for insisting that the report was removed and replaced with something completely different by our then Labor Government. They had forgotten that the United Nations which, is where I got it from, had a copy and published it.

    Miriam English
    It is not just science and technology. There is the global fiat economy that continuously expands the currency supply to make up for the shortfall in energy production. $4 of debt for every $1 of GDP growth. When the next financial crisis arrives, it will be a doozy and renewable energy projects will not proceed. Those already completed will slowly die as maintenance issues takes its toll.

    Relationships between energy, the economy and the quest for growth must be factored together, not in isolation.

    Cheers.

  160. Keith

    Fossil fuels kill millions of people; from coal dust, and emissions from transport and from power generating stations; others suffer from respiratory problems. That is neatly forgotten.
    More greenhouse gases in the atmosphere create a warmer atmosphere able to carry more water vapour; rain bombs where huge amounts of rain fall in a short time frame are now common occurrences around Earth (see flood list reference below).

    Extreme heat kills people, huge numbers in Russia in 2010; wet bulb conditions have been experienced in the last few years in a number of countries causing death of thousands. Wet bulb conditions being a combination of high temperature and high humidity which cancels the ability to perspire (see Common Dreams and Wunderground references).

    Extreme conditions have an impact on agriculture and water resources through destruction of crops; or, not being able to nurture crops in drought conditions.

    The cryosphere (snow and ice) has a profound impact on climate, it is deteriorating. The maximum sea ice extent in the Arctic for 2017 beats last years lowest recorded extent. The maximum extent is now lower than the minimum extent measured in September of 1980.
    The cryosphere moderates temperature ( see NSIDC and Z Labe references).

    Apart from the atmosphere warming, Oceans have been picking up much warmth as well. Ocean warmth is impacting on sea ice in the Arctic region, and undermining ice sheets in Antarctic.

    These matters are what scientists are drawing our attention too

    Trump’s push to allow greater emissions in the US will have a negative impact on the climate and hence recklessly putting more lives at risk.

    A few references to support comments made; use the hyperlinks in articles which provide the rationale for comments made . There are thousands of papers published in peer reviewed journals per year, only a hand full are published by skeptical scientists. Also, there are often meta Reports provided periodically showing the state of Oceans, and the Arctic etc.

    http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=3591#commenttop

    http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/n0905-7000-underground-gas-bubbles-poised-to-explode-in-arctic/

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/31/planet-will-warm-4c-2100-climate

    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/01/10/ticking-carbon-clock-warns-we-have-one-year-avert-climate-catastrophe

    https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

    http://sites.uci.edu/zlabe/arctic-sea-ice-extentconcentration/

    http://floodlist.com/news

    http://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/horn-africa-cerf-early-action-2017-drought-15-march-2017

  161. randalstella

    You are all going to vote for the Adani mine, with the possible exception of H.
    Seeing that you have so much time on your hands, why don’t you discuss that?

  162. Miriam English

    Johno, many of H’s links come from unreliable sites. Some look sane until you dig a little and realise they inspire hopelessness and reek of conspiracy theories. Some have unsavoury Russian or fossil fuel associations.

    Not everything he posts is crazy doom crap though. He does, from time to time, make sensible remarks and link to good information when he steps outside his bubble of doom. Occasionally even stuff inside his doom bubble makes sense, for instance he is correct about us being well past peak oil and that it only gets more expensive now. He’s also correct about the difficulty most people have with exponential change. There’s a talk by Prof. Bartlett on arithmetic, population and energy he links to from time to time about exponential change which I heartily recommend. He paranoidly insists that nobody watches it even though I’ve cited it a number of times. (Bear in mind that the talk is old and doesn’t take into account that human population growth is now slowing, not growing exponentially, but the main message is still important.)

    However, let H get onto the topic of doom and something goes wrong in his head and he refuses to hear anything else. Absolute certainty and hopelessness dominate him and he does his best impression of a fundamentalist preacher to convince everybody that we’re totally screwed… because he knows and nobody else does.

  163. Miriam English

    randalstella, why would you think everybody here is pro-Adani. I have seen only one comment that is in favor of the mine: Trish’s.

    As for time, I’m kicking myself that I keep letting myself be drawn on Harquebus’ defeatist doom all the time. I have heaps of things I should be doing. >:(

  164. Harquebus

    I recommend having a look a the NSIDC link provided by Keith. It a site that I visit almost daily. The graphs showing sea ice extent for both poles are very concerning.

    Miriam English
    As I have stated, it is only you that refers to it as doom. I rarely ever use that term. They are problems that need to be addressed and to dismiss them as gloom and doom is to ignore very serious problems that are apparent to many, yourself not included.

    Cheers.

  165. Roswell

    You are all going to vote for the Adani mine

    I’ll look for them on the voting slip.

  166. randalstella

    They’re under ‘ALP”

  167. Roswell

    Miriam English
    As I have stated, it is only you that refers to it as doom. I rarely ever use that term. They are problems that need to be addressed and to dismiss them as gloom and doom is to ignore very serious problems that are apparent to many, yourself not included.

    I doubt very much that Miriam dismisses or ignores the situation (as confirmed by her comments).

    She, like most people here, dismiss your attitude (the one of doom and gloom).

    Harquebus, we are all aware of the problems we face. We seriously are. We just have the one thing you have not displayed: hope.

  168. helvityni

    Trish wrote that CQ does mining and farming; why not stop the former and concentrate on the latter; people will always need food…

    Little Holland is the second largest producer and exporter of agricultural products….

  169. Roswell

    That was a good gotchya, randastella. I’ll pay that one. Very clever. 😀

  170. Roswell

    Harquebus, I have a suggestion. It’s the youth of today in whose hands we put our faith and future in. Wouldn’t it be better to target them?

  171. corvus boreus

    randallstella,
    It may seem that the titular subject referencing the issue of governmental approval and subsidy for a foreign owned mega-mine (and associated works) that will release metric phuq-tons of CO2 into an already overloaded atmosphere (with associated consequences) was merely a conversational springboard for intensive debate into the much more crucial matter of the perceived follies within Harquebus’ pessimistic viewpoint.
    However Kyran, Keith, paulwalter, Kaye Lee and others (even the author herself) have all clearly articulated both their opposition to the proposed coal mines and in some cases their underlying and over-riding reasons for such.
    I don’t think many here (exceptions duly noted) are rolling with coal and supporting the Carmichael project.

  172. Mick Byron

    randalstella
    Would not Adani have a much freer run under an LNP /One Nation balance of power government?
    Elections are more than one issue
    Your solution in voting would be,and please don’t say Greens as they have no hope.
    Independents and Katter maybe?

  173. Roswell

    For the record, I’m against too.

  174. Mick Byron

    randalstella
    If as it seems many would like to bring down Annastacia Palaszczuk and her government over Adani would not Adani have a much freer run under an LNP /One Nation balance of power government?
    Elections are more than one issue
    Your solution in voting would be,and please don’t say Greens as they have no hope.
    Independents and Katter maybe?
    Who do you think will govern Queensland in 17/18 or when the election is held and what do you believe that Governments attitude to Adani will be?

  175. Jack Straw

    What Harquebus is lacking is emotional intelligence.

  176. Harquebus

    I refer to my first comment on this thread. Diminishing returns on energy production is being reflected in slowing growth and mounting debts. Adani is just part of our government’s desperate attempt overcome this physical reality.

    Roswell.
    There is a difference between hope and wishful thinking.
    Youth of today! What do they know?

    Something that I am half way through reading and could not let it slip by.

    “We like to think that improved technology can add more and more benefit. In fact, technology seems to reach diminishing returns, just as almost any other type of investment does. We make the easy changes (smaller cars, for example) first. Later changes tend to be more incremental. Because of this pattern, we can’t count on huge future changes in technology saving us.”
    https://ourfiniteworld.com/2017/03/29/why-energy-economy-models-produce-overly-optimistic-indications/

    Cheers.

  177. Roswell

    Youth of today! What do they know?

    Nothing. Until we teach them.

  178. Johno

    Helvityni

    Brilliant idea ‘Dig Spuds Not Coal.’ That could be on Todd Sampson’s next Tshirt.

  179. helvityni

    🙂 Johno, the world needs spuds, see what happened to Ireland during the potato famine, they ‘all’ had to move to America…

    We don’t need too much sugar, so could the sugarcane fields be used to grow spinach and broccolini instead…(Oops, that might be seen as a dangerous idea…)

  180. Johno

    Helvityni
    Very dangerous talk, almost akin to mutiny. I actually prefer sweet potato. A roasted kiwi Kumara is to die for.

  181. randalstella

    Yes, cb I can read. Can you see the bleedin’ obvious? There are more examples of it in responses since.
    The very people who ensure the Adani mine are those who complain about it, but vote Labor anyway. These people are the strength of the mine. Would Labor dare doing this deal if they could not depend on this vote?

    The mine makes the ALP policies on the environment appear a sham. They have now zero credibility on AGW. These are the most important issues facing this planet. They are not going to magically disappear. If you vote for the ALP despite the Adani deal, you’ll pretty much vote for it despite anything. You’re as rusted on as any Labor hack. You just bleat differently. But you’re still a sheep.
    The environment is not the only issue, but it is the core issue; from which so much else flows.
    Let’s do a scenario of 2070. Floods and droughts are frequent, The ave. max. temp. in southern Australia is 45C. Cyclones have tripled in frequency and ferocity. Agriculture is laid waste. Shorelines are under water. The Barrier Reef is 90% dead. Etc. The planet is becoming Venus-lite. There is no reversing this. It may only get worse.
    Someone asks grandpa why he voted Labor all those years, given their complicity in sustainability destruction.
    He answers: because the Liberals were worse.
    What sort of weak excuse would that be? What sort of weak excuse is it now? Clearly it is an excuse that has never cared enough about AGW.

    And Harquebus is criticised for being gloomy. The planet has about 90% probability of being completely f*cked. By humans. By shonky allegiances. By misplaced and superstitious loyalties. By the anxious and conscientious in confederacy with the irrational and apathetic. By voting patterns.

  182. randalstella

    None of these points are ‘clever’. None of them are other than very obvious. Any one of you could have raised them. But you have not. I can remember when such points would be raised here. It would not have needed me.

    I was also hinting at any earlier discussion, on the political structure. This structure means everything is dominated by the Lib-Lab alternation. Multi-member electorates would transform political dynamics. It would deal with the blustering canard of Labor barnacles ‘so you are going to vote Liberal then?’.
    But such vital change is not going to happen because the duopoly are not going to undermine their domination of politics and policy. And if it ever came up as a possibility in some referendum or such, Labor voters would vote it down.
    Others here have discussed this reconstituting of representation. But they choose not to enter comment at this time.
    I have to get back to work.

  183. Miriam English

    Latest news

    It is with great relief that I see that horrible twerp Brandis failed to get his repellent “Adani Amendments” through which would have killed Indigenous land rights.

    Labor must have been shocked into action by the thousands of emails they received telling them not to betray the traditional owners, so they voted against it. This despite assurances to the government that Labor would vote with the LNP (as they usually do). Labor is still ready to take away native land rights, if they can find a quiet way that won’t stir up a strong response from the public. Disgusting.

    So, hooray! Until they can think up another way to steal the land I guess Adani’s mine might be dead. Thank goodness for the courageous members of the Wangan, Jagalingou, and Juru people who have been fighting this monstrosity in the courts for a couple of years now, possibly longer. Those tribes may have saved the planet from being tipped over the edge of runaway greenhouse heating by one of the biggest coal mines ever.

  184. Miriam English

    More good news, but unrelated to my article above, is that our racist government failed to get its changes to Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act through the Senate. Yay!

    It is so sweet to see the bastards lose in their attempts to corrupt our society.

  185. Johno

    Miriam,
    That is very good news re the Adani mine. It was painful to watch Brandis bang on about no change to 18C.

  186. Keith

    Trish has received many responses in relation to her support for Adani; I’m wondering what her comment might be?

    The dicotomy is; for the few positions created, huge damage is done to the climate and hence numerous communities, families, and individuals. Currently, there are millions of families suffering from drought in Africa, an area identified as being at huge risk of decreasing precipitation. Last year it had been Asia that had been hit hard.

  187. Matters Not

    Response might be: All politics is local..

    The locals believe that Adani is the saviour.

  188. Kaye Lee

    The State Government this week gave Adani the final approval it needs to go ahead with the mine, a water licence that will give it access to 9.5 billion litres of groundwater.

  189. Keith

    Matters Not
    The response might be all politics is local; except, the consequences are global.
    Coal from a Carmichael mine might be shipped overseas, but in the end Australia cops the consequences as well as other countries.

  190. Matters Not

    except, the consequences are global

    Don’t think that will worry us because it hasn’t in the past (and elsewhere) in the present. Take our Middle East ‘adventures as an example.

    that you can set fire to countries in the Middle East, collapse their societies, and traumatize entire populations sowing carnage on a biblical scale, and not expect any reaction in the form of blowback is utterly insane

    So what’s a bit of global warming. (No need to answer that.)

  191. Kaye Lee

    “I deal daily with the devastating impacts of coal while working with some of India’s poorest people,” Indian environmental justice advocate Dr Vaishali Patil said.

    “Adani tops the list of the worst companies I have come in contact with in my work.

    “The damage that Adani has done to our people can’t be overstated: local fishing communities unable to access their fishing grounds; vast quantities of coal spilled into the oceans and not cleaned up for years, devastating local tourism, beaches and marine life. Adani’s mine must never be allowed to go ahead.”

    The Indian company has been embroiled in illegal dealings, bribery, environmental and social devastation and allegations of corruption, fraud and money laundering, according to a legal research brief released by Environmental Justice Australia in February.

    In one concerning incident, a ship carrying Adani coal sank and caused an oil and coal spill along Mumbai’s coast, which damaged tourism and polluted the marine environment. A court fined Adani $975,000 for the accident.

    Adani was also ordered to pay $4.8 million after constructing Hajira Port without approval, which destroyed habitat, claimed land and blocked access to fishing communities.

    The company has also been subject to long-running investigations into tax evasion and money laundering while trading in diamonds and gold jewellery.

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/is-this-the-worst-mistake-australia-could-make/news-story/f461955f66050fb32f0c1717571399fa

  192. Keith

    Thanks Johno
    India, the Middle East, Cyprus and Japan were hit, the year before last if memory serves me well, where thousands of people were killed by heat (wet bulb conditions); hospitals were overrun. Last year hundreds of Indian farmers committed suicide due to crop failure through drought.

  193. Johno

    Just another point regarding what Trish said ‘CQ the beef capital of OZ.’ According to the UN’s Global Livestock Emissions Assessment model – producing beef is by far the worst offender for carbon emissions, compared to other animal products, and what is labour doing about massive deforestation in Qld.

  194. Harquebus

    Roswell
    You said something about the youth of today knowing nothing until we teach them.

    “human survival should be a central element of the mission of our national university and that every one of our graduates should be ‘survival literate’.”
    “We have become besotted with the idea that money and markets will solve all of our problems.”
    “our commitment to endless economic growth and denial and ignorance of its ecological consequences is an integral part of the problem, which must urgently be addressed if our grandchildren are to survive.”
    https://australia21.org.au/event-archive/avoid-early-extinction-make-australian-students-survival-literate/

    My apologies Miriam. I couldn’t let this one slip by.
    Have we heard from Palaszczuk yet?

    Cheers.

  195. Kaye Lee

    “human survival should be a central element of the mission of our national university and that every one of our graduates should be ‘survival literate’.”

    I certainly agree that sustainability should be part of relevant courses but to suggest that every university student should be learning how to shoe horses and grow potatoes (oversimplification I know) is ludicrous. Every student has individual interests, aptitudes and talents that we should nurture. To restrict them to the ‘survivalist’ mantra would rob us of their creativity and initiative.

  196. Miriam English

    Exactly my thoughts, Kaye. Society is stronger if we can specialise in what we do best.

    It lets one person spend their every waking hour understand why the immune system can recognise some virus coat proteins and not others and not know the first thing about growing vegetables.

    It’s what lets another person become an expert in electronic noise and quantum fluctuations and the limitations of nanometer track design in integrated circuits but having not any clue about building a home.

    It makes it possible for a cobbler to specialise in fixing shoes but be a crappy cook.

    It allows a person compose music that lifts the heart and bring light into people’s lives yet be a complete klutz at normal day-to-day living themself.

    This is what makes human society such a powerful thing.

  197. Miriam English

    H, still nothing from Annastacia Palaszczuk yet. There won’t be anything over the weekend.

  198. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee and Miriam English
    The article did not state that survival education should be at the exclusion of all else. I doubt that either of you read the article.
    BTW: Did either of you watch theDrum yesterday. Compare the morons on the panel who all supported continued growth to the names mentioned in the article. Oh, I keep forgetting. You don’t follow my links.
    Cheers.

  199. Kaye Lee

    I read the article hoping that your snippet was not indicative.

    The best way for us to survive is as a team. Every member of the team contributes in their own way and we, as a team, carry those who may not be up to the game for whatever reason.

    We don’t abandon each other. We appreciate each other’s qualities and forgive each other’s failings. We complement each other’s inadequacies. We listen and learn from each other. As I used to say to my bottom year 8 maths class when they were forced to do common tests, hey if you were all as good as me at maths then I wouldn’t look special – we all have our thing.

  200. Miriam English

    H, don’t be a dick. Nobody has to read your articles, just as nobody has to read the ones I link to.
    I don’t have TV, and there have been so many complaints about The Drum I don’t know why you bother to watch that. In fact I don’t know why you bother with TV at all. My life is considerably better without it.

  201. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    No argument there however, there are some things that should be common knowledge. My opinion is that the proposals put forward in the article would be a step toward eliminating the growth ideology. Too many graduates have this absurd mindset.

    Miriam English
    Not following my links does not bother me. Criticizing them without reading them though does.
    As for theDrum, I like to keep abreast of what we are up against. The three panelists were distributing their poop nation wide and via our ABC no less. We are losing the fight.

    Cheers.

  202. Matters Not

    Harquebus, if you follow your link (and I suggest that you do and stop being so annoyingly and embarrassingly superficial), you will find that it leads to Professor Glyn Davis AC. If you know anything about Glyn Davis then you will know something about Professor Margaret Gardner. While Glyn heads up the University of Melbourne, his wife Margaret heads up Monash University. (I won’t go into the detail of ‘how’ they arrived where they did – but they are masterful politicians.)

    Given their combined salaries, and ‘allowances’, they are well versed in survival education. You would do well to check out their credentials in some depth.

    Perhaps I should add, they are both quite happy to accept remuneration in the prevailing ‘fiat currency’. Silly buggers aren’t they.

    Perhaps they provide a model for thou? Don’t be selective.

  203. Miriam English

    H, if you were a little less self-obsessed you might have noticed that I was agreeing with what Kaye said, not commenting on your link.

  204. Harquebus

    Matters Not
    Those names did not appear in the article and Davis is listed as a patron along side the board members who, I did check out before posting the link. In this instance, it is you that is being selective.

    Miriam English
    My criticism was in a general sense and I had in mind your last response on my depopulation submission when I wrote that comment. My apologies anyway.

    Cheers.

  205. Miriam English

    Weird how you do that, H. You think you’ve apologised, but you haven’t. You’ve effectively said, “I’m right, sorry.” And then you’re surprised when it needles people. Grow a little humility and empathy.

  206. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Actually, it is because I couldn’t be bothered arguing with you. Sorry.
    Cheers.

  207. Kyran

    An odd post appeared on the ABC citing a court case with some extraordinary admissions.

    “According to sworn evidence to the Land Court in Queensland, Adani plans to ship polluting, low-energy coal to India.
    A report to the court made on its behalf said the Carmichael mine would produce “two coal products”.
    “Product one, a low ash/moderate energy product most suitable for Asian premium markets,” the report said.
    “And product two, a high ash/lower energy product most suitable for non-premium markets, particularly India.””

    With apologies, on behalf of the ABC, the article does not cite if this is a current case and provides no comment as to the identity of the litigants. Welcome to ABC, a la newscorpse.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-03/adani-plans-to-export-low-quality-coal-to-india-report-says/8409742

    The rest of the article is worth a read.
    With regard to Mr Walter’s post at 9.57 pm, 30/3, it should be noted that most of the current sugar cane crop in Queensland has been flattened by Debbie. Many of the mining sites in Queensland, were also done over by Debbie. The irony that bananas pulled a code of conduct out of one of his orifice’s to protect his interests at the same time the crop was being flattened serves to underscore how far behind the times these clowns are.
    Take care

  208. Henry Rodrigues

    I am a Labor voter and I am ashamed of Anna and Qld Labor and their quick embrace of that dodgy Indian character. But as the Queenslanders never fail to remind us, in any controversial situation, they do things differently up there. Anna probably assumes she possesses the wisdom of a great thinker etc etc.but she’s nothing more than a dupe in the hands of Adani and his mob.

  209. helvityni

    I’m baffled by Anna, I shake by head and then remember what LP Hartley wrote “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there”….and so is Queensland… 🙂

    Not that our Federal Government is any better, right now…

  210. Johno

    Just pandering for the Hanson vote, conveniently forgetting that a landscape wasted by climate change is less important than winning the next election and in regard to forest clearing in Qld and worldwide read this…

    /www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/climate-change-water-fossil-fuel

  211. Freethinker

    Henry, what Anna it is doing is looking after her own seat, specially when elections are coming.
    That it is what happens with politicians, not only in Australia but OS as well.
    Look Sanders and Elizabeth Warren in USA, they forgot what they have been saying and when come to the crunch the supported Clinton and stayed in a party that does not make the real difference, just a little difference like the ALP here.
    Politician are first to look after their seat, second the party and third the country and their people.

  212. Henry Rodrigues

    Freethinker………You are right that politicians, first and foremost, look after their own seats, great salaries and perks, guaranteed for at least 3-4 years. But climate change and mitigating the effects of climate change, are basic Labor policies, and expecting people to believe that somehow they know better or that they have an ace up their sleeves which they’ll pull out at the right opportune moment, is very arrogant. I hope they don’t lose too many votes over this, but lose they will.

  213. Miriam English

    Johno, unfortunately a paywalled site.

    We already know some of the effects of increased CO2 on plants. They grow faster, producing more woody tissue. Melons become more fibrous and woody, and less fleshy, for instance. It’s my understanding that most of our oxygen comes from algae in the ocean rather than land vegetation.

    Checking on the net, some sites say a single large tree can provide enough oxygen for a family of four, while other sites say it takes several trees to produce enough oxygen for a single person. It probably depends on the kind and size of the tree, and where in the world (tropics, colder climate, desert, high elevation).

  214. corvus boreus

    Miriam,
    Here is NASA’s take on ratios of carbon input-output in the global carbon cycle.
    https://science.nasa.gov/earth-science/oceanography/ocean-earth-system/ocean-carbon-cycle
    They rate O2 release from oceanic photosynthesis at >50% yearly planetary total.

    On CO2 and plant growth, here is a reasonable overview on global trends in the annular rings of trees.
    http://www.climatedata.info/proxies/tree-rings/
    Note that, despite a documented rise atmospheric CO2 and average temperatures,and against the overall global trend, trees in the northern hemisphere have undergone a general decrease in growth rates since the late 1950’s, although a myriad of other factors (eg increased acidity, phytophthora) could be contributing to this decline.

    I would add that in my personal experience, fast growth in trees often comes at the expense of lignal structure and timber density.
    For example,camphor laurels from the higher altitude of their range tend to yield a dense-grained timber that is valued by dresser-makers and such, whereas they deride the wood of specimens that proliferate in coastal regions as ‘spongy crap’.

    The plants that would best benefit from a hyper-carbonated atmosphere are the ‘C4’ plants (mainly types of grass), which are adapted to eliminate photo-respiration and thus lock extra carbon molecules into their photosynthetic process.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C4_carbon_fixation

  215. Alan Baird

    I’ve got a little wheel on my mouse and when the thread implodes into navel-gazing with the agent provocateur I overtake at high speed. It whirled quite a bit this time. Quite a few micro-issues. Adani was the subject. Shorten can’t say anything; same party. Ms P. won’t say much. Labor is being led by people outside the party. Wouldn’t it be interesting if Labor WOULDN’T follow electoral orders and then lose on principle. They are quite probably going to lose anyway. Why not go out backwards at least smelling like a rose for once. If threatened with a drubbing, the weak option always gets first try with Labor. Especially if it involves anything the US of A wants. Iraq took quite a while to get them going. If they’d reacted properly straight away and said Geo. Bush was starkers they’d have got credit for the denouement (petard?) when it blew up in Lyin’ Rodent’s face.

  216. Johno

    Ha ha ha,
    Kentucky coal museum switching to solar power. You wouldn’t expect a museum dedicated to the coal industry to run on anything other than coal — but a mining museum in Kentucky is soon to be solar powered. CNN.

  217. helvityni

    Yes, Johno, the world is indeed a mysterious place, and sometimes most unexpected things happen; good news from old Southern Kentucky…maybe one day from Queensland too… 🙂

  218. Johno

    Yes, I saw the pictures. More pollution for the already overstretched environment to deal with.

  219. cartoonmick

    I know we have a problem with our budget, but encouraging the coal energy path instead of the renewable energy just shows how determined the conservatives are in putting big business ahead of people and our environment.

    When the crap finally settles on what’s left of our environment, the rich will be covered to the same extent as the poor.

    My thoughts in this 30 second YouTube vid … https://youtu.be/GiDtvjZJGeY

    Cheers
    Mick

  220. corvus boreus

    As Trish Corry previously pointed out, the proposed mega-mines are not, like, right next to the beach and reef, and there are, like, literally hundreds of reassuring regulations in place.
    The spill at the (not yet expanded) Abbott Point terminal that blackened both adjacent wetlands and beach was not caused by Adani’s currently operating mines, just by the seaside processing and stockpiling of the coal they produced.
    The release of coal-dust laden waters into the wetlands was conducted in accordance to special approvals granted due to the totally unforeseeable circumstances of a tropical cyclone occurring in a tropical location.

    The actual Adani mine sites are, like, miles inland.
    The only water they will contaminate is freshwater rivers and artesian aquifers.

  221. Kaye Lee

    cb,

    Nothing to worry about. According to our Deputy PM it’s just “dust blowing over a duck shooting pond.”

  222. corvus boreus

    Kaye Lee,
    Personally, I haven’t ruled out the theory that the water discoloration was completely unrelated to the adjacent coal-piles, and was instead due to ink discharged by seething masses of distressed and panicked squid and cuttlefish, inadvertently washed into the Caley wetlands by Debbie’s storm surge.

  223. Kaye Lee

    .http://www.smh.com.au/content/dam/images/g/v/h/v/u/0/image.related.articleLeadwide.620x349.gvht8u.png/1491956229261.jpg

  224. corvus boreus

    Kaye Lee,
    According to one local councillor, the ‘spill’ is ‘fake news’ put out by lying greenies.
    Apparently, the wetlands have not been stained coal-black but instead turned a very dark red, and this has been caused by rainwater reacting with saltpans rather than coal-dust leaching from the huge stock piles alongside the worst of the discoloration..
    https://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/abbot-point-spill-claims-dubbed-fake-news-councill/3166308/
    Here is a photo of the beach alongside, which has also been stained a very ‘dark red’ by the same ‘salt-contaminated’ water.
    https://www.marineconservation.org.au/data/News_and_media/Releases/20170411_Abbot_Point_Helicopter_Still_3_1000px.jpg

  225. Miriam English

    So Whitsunday councillor Michael Brunker is circulating fake fake news. 🙂
    Anybody up for fake fake fake news?

    Here, I’ll have a shot at it: Michael Brunker is actually an alien whose intent is to make Earth into a hothouse uninhabitable by humans so his compatriots can fly here in their saucers and take over without the bother of having the hassle of fighting the humans.

    Hmmm… sounds a little more probable than his… I was trying for something more unbelieveable.

  226. corvus boreus

    Miriam,
    For an ‘alternative fact’ explanation, I’m still running with my ‘cephalopod based discoloration’ thought-belch over councillor Brunker’s ‘oxides in salt pan’ brain-fart.
    At least my bullshit story vaguely fits the photographic evidence.

    Ps, I liked the way Adani referred to the undoctored satellite (and subsequent aerial) photographs as “misleading”.
    Apparently, when viewed from some other angles, the contamination doesn’t look quite so bad.

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