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Pandemic Reflexes: Lockdowns and Arrests in Victoria

Ugly. Rough. Police in the Australian state of Victoria muscling their way in. The father and children watching. It had all arisen because the pregnant mother in question had engaged in conduct defined as incitement. In a post on her Facebook page, Zoe Buhler had urged Victorians to protest the coronavirus lockdown rules over the weekend. She encouraged the practising of social distancing measures to avoid arrest and the wearing of masks, subject to medical exceptions. “Here in Ballarat we can be a voice for those in Stage 4 lockdowns [in metropolitan Melbourne]. We can be seen and heard and hopefully make a difference.”

Social media sniffers in the state police picked up the scent and repaired to her Ballarat home in Miners Rest. Buhler promised to take down the post. “I didn’t realise I was doing anything wrong. I’m happy to delete the post. This is ridiculous.” She noted the presence of her children; the fact that she was due for an ultrasound appointment in an hour. She inquired about clarification about the term “incitement”, a word she genuinely did not comprehend.

Subsequently, she claimed the police had shown some basic courtesy. “Sorry about my bimbo moment,” she stated on reflection. But she refused to resile from her view that the conduct had been “too heavy handed, especially [to arrest me] in front of my children and to walk into my house like that.” She remains ignorant about the meaning of incitement.

The Buhler arrest was coarse, incautious, suggesting a tone-deafness prevalent in law enforcement. It was unusual in ploughing common furrows across the political divide. The Australian was assuredly predictable in its denunciation, having never quite taken the virus that seriously (deaths we shall have, but managed responsibly), though it was hard to disagree with associate editor Caroline Overington’s plea. “You can accept lockdown and support saving lives but you should still oppose cuffing anyone – much less a pregnant woman.”

Janet Albrechtsen took matters into another register with her school girl claim of fascism, a term she had no inclination to define. Albrechtsen has never been troubled by forensic details, but she was correct to assume that Buhler will not necessarily be seen as hero or martyr. Protesters are approved or repudiated depending on the flavour of the moment, and the ducking stools would be out. “Maybe she’s into crystals?  Maybe she’s an anti-vaxxer?” She certainly did not share views “common with rich hippies in Byron Bay.”

The legal fraternity were more than a touch unsettled. The Victorian Bar was deeply unimpressed by a police operation that seemed, not merely rough in execution but untutored, and said so in its media release on September 3. “We recognise,” its president, Wendy Harris QC explained, “the importance of compliance with the law, but enforcement of those laws needs to be proportionate and consistent.” Arresting Buhler and handcuffing her in her home in front of her partner and children “appeared disproportionate to the threat she presented.” Case law in Victoria – Slaveski v Victoria and Perkins v County Court of Victoria – had held “that a police officer is not entitled to use handcuffs on a person merely because an arrest is made.”

Another thing also niggled the Victorian Bar Association. “Consistency in the enforcement of the law is also critical; without it, confidence in the rule of law is undermined.” This was a less than subtle swipe at mixed responses from the police: the enforcement measures taken against Buhler were “apparently at odds with other reported and more measured responses by authorities to organisers and protesters of similar protesters planned or carried out in contravention of public health directives.”

Greg Barns, National Criminal Justice spokesman of the Australian Lawyers Alliance, was similarly shaken. Writing in The Age, he was baffled by the views of Assistant Commissioner Luke Cornelius, who claimed that the police had been “polite” and “professional.” Police were good enough to assist Buhler to contact the hospital to make another appointment for the ultrasound. Hardly the point, fumes Barns. “They should not have arrested her in the first place.” The result of such muscular policing has been to gift Buhler the PR campaign and ensure “greater sympathy for those who are wanting to launch protests against the Premier [Daniel Andrews] and his government’s draconian laws.”

The mild mannered Rosalind Croucher, president of the Australian Human Rights Commission, also took to the debate, “dismayed” by the Buhler arrest. “In times of crisis, such as this pandemic, our rights are as important than ever.” Temporary measures to limit rights and freedoms to control the spread of infection might have been necessary but “must always be proportionate to the risk – and managed appropriately.”

Buhler’s case is one of several arrests conducted this week, some of which would have caused fewer twangs of sympathy or outrage. James Bartolo decided to mix reality television with pandemic law enforcement, filming his own arrest and posting it to Facebook. Unlike Buhler, Bartolo is your traditional figure of practiced conspiracy, claiming to have better insight into the world of manipulated wickedness than most. Through The Conscious Truth Network, he chest-thumpingly advertises his credentials as “truth seeker, freedom fighter, utopian advocate.”

This fine former specimen of the Australian army and addled body builder is convinced that COVID-19 is but a Trojan horse, the fiendish, fictional product of a “treasonous and corrupt network of filth” intent on enslaving us.A truculent Bartolo, in his three-minute long video, is seen arguing that the police was unlawfully trespassing on his property. “You don’t have authorisation to be on the property.” But the paperwork was in order; the police duly made their way in, arresting the 27-year-old for alleged incitement, possession of prohibited weapons and two counts of resisting them. An advertising stunt had been successfully executed.

These displays have caught the Victorian Police flatfooted. It was always bound to resonate with some politicians. On September 4, David Limbrick of the Victorian Legislative Council and member of the Liberal Democrats wrote an open letter to Victorians expressing his shock and disappointment with the state government’s response, claiming that those authoritarians who had forced Victorians to wear masks “and their enablers have been unmasked.” While not explicitly pointing out specific acts of the Victorian police, the theme of his note was clear enough. “The intrusion into our lives gets more personal and more extreme every day. The Government has given the police free reign [sic], so no wonder their behaviour just gets more outrageous.”

Limbrick has also encouraged protests, but suggests forms that do not breach the regulations. “It’s simple – bring your pots and pans, beep your horns at 8pm, and let your neighbourhood know that we don’t have to suffer in silence.” An even sounder suggestion is advanced by Barns. Make better laws, avoid sloppy drafting which leaves “enormous discretion in the hands of the police” and “educate and try to reduce tension and stress in the community.” As for Buhler’s case, they could have made things simple and civil: take her up on the offer to remove the Facebook post, explain why it was in breach, and be on their way. A sensible thought for an insensible time.

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63 comments

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  1. mark delmege

    yep

  2. andy56

    nah, lock then all up in a detention center where they can exercise their rights. See how long they survive before fear gets the better of them. Abosolutely all on MORONAVIRUS, I am over educating a brick wall. I would lock up anyone in the media who promotes these lunatics. Rights rights rights yea, rights already. Where are my rights to get back to normal in all this? there are no rights until this virus is under control. There are obligations to co operate so we get over it asap. When its over i give my blessings to protest., just not now bunnies.

  3. Andrew J. Smith

    Not excusing the woman’s irresponsible behaviour in incitement. However, heavy handed arrests (on camera then promoted via media), like much govt. authority and police culture in Australia, PR/imagery making up for sub-optimal competence e.g. shambolic scenes at airports/liner docks, hotel quarantine, border politics etc. with Covid-19 viewed as a security issue, now political, vs. health?

    Have the police been watching too many US television police and crime series?

  4. Florence Howarth

    Be interesting to see what the courts say. Often, they throw out these types of cases, but I suspect will treat the charge of incitement to urge people migth be treated seriously.

  5. A Commentator

    The police are unable to control civil disobedience when it involves 1% of the population.

    This type of over the top action can cause that 1% to double or triple. It undermines the public confidence in policing that is necessary for them to maintain order.

    A friend in the US called me yesterday, this story was on every news report. It reflects very poorly on Australia generally and Victoria specifically. The “tone deaf” description by the author is the understatement of the year.

    Some things never change – the recruitment demographic for police has always been bullies that are too dumb to get into the armed forces. That seems to be an international standard.

  6. Matters Not

    Perhaps we could investigate horses for courses. Go to Thailand (for example) where they have three types of police that interact with the public. One group are referred to as tourist police (not sure correct names) who deal (sympathetically) with tourists who feel they have been ripped off. (Tend to take the side of the tourist but not always.) Then there’s immigration police (I think) and finally there’s a group that engages in what we might call regular police work.

    Thus different training for different tasks. Plus different personality types etc. Clearly, there’s a hell of difference in arresting members of violent gangs from helping old ladies across the street etc.. Perhaps social workers might be called on etc.

    Perhaps a bit of creative thinking?

    Usually, governments operate ‘in general’ and are not good at detailed interventions etc.

  7. Michael Taylor

    I’m with you, A C.

    How effing hard is it to make a small sacrifice?

    Carol and I celebrated our wedding anniversary a few days ago. Each year, on our anniversary, we go over the border to one of our three favourite restaurants in the world and celebrate in style. We could not enjoy that annual outing this year. So effing what? We lived with it. Not once did we consider taking to the streets demanding that the state borders be opened for us.

    After saving for a year we were to head off to Scotland in two weeks. We can’t go. Despite our disappointment not once did we feel the need to take to the streets demanding that Scott Morrison open up international travel.

    (Yes, I’m a hero 😁)

  8. leefe

    No.

    The Buhler arrest was filmed by the husband who brought the children into the room and used them as part of the scenery. The police were quiet, respectful and a damn sight more patient than that woman had any right to expect.
    On top of which she actively organised a gathering, despite the rules against them due to the pandemic. She was asked to take down the post and cancel the plans and she refused, which is why a warrant for her arrest was issued. The handcuffs were on briefly and as standard protocol.

    There have been many cases of police overreactions all across the country, but that particular arrest was not one of them. This whole incident has been twisted out of proportion by the conspiracy theorists and anti-Dan Andrews crowd.

  9. Matters Not

    Re:

    The handcuffs were on briefly and as standard protocol.

    No doubt. But the handcuffs being on IS the money shot. That’s the picture that the punters will remember. Thus any objective view sees that the police/government lost the publicity stakes.

    Andrews won’t be happy. The press secretary won’t be happy. etc. etc. Should have been predicted and managed. (But I suppose they have been very busy of late..)

  10. guest

    So, when is a law not a law, or a rule not a rule? What is a protocol – just a matter of personal choice?

    We had a journalist asking us why it is OK for someone to walk the dog at 7:55pm, but not OK at 8:55pm. Why not? Is that an infringement of rights? It is also called curfew.

    We are also being asked to “live with the virus”. We have had security people do that in a place of confinement and they are said to have created the recent increase in the number of people being affected by coronavirus in Victoria.

    In the USA there have been thousands of people saying their freedom and rights have been taken away and they have defied regulations and protested. Numbers of deaths in the USA are approaching 200,000.

    In Sweden, there were suggestions about how citizens might behave but there were no regulations made compulsory. Business remained open. It seemed to work at first. Sweden went on to have far higher damage than Norway or Denmark, countries which had harder early lockdowns.

    Here in Australia, there has been criticism of anyone involved in speaking about regulation of citizens.

    Judith Sloan (25/8/2020) wrote: “Generally, chief health officers positions – often political appointments – were never taken seriously by the medical profession. While public health can be a fairly dreary pursuit, with preventive measures necessary but sometimes costly, it is a crucial activity for the public sector.

    “But lured by trendy and worthy-sounding alternative endeavours, state health departments ended up under-investing in public health and pandemic preparation, with Victoria leading the pack of neglectful bureaucrats> Now we are expected to hang on their every word and punitive directions they issue almost daily.”

    Nick Cater (25/8/2020) wrote: “Whatever the threats posed by COVID-19, they are dwarfed by the dangers of trifling with tyranny as Daniel Andrews is doing right now…Yet the mean-spirited manner in which these measures are enforced grates with our principles, risking things we should never be forced to sacrifice. We might have been more inclined to take the pat of Arizona and indeed most US states, where the kinds of measures taken here would have been unthinkable. Arizona is paying its own price. Its COVID-19 death toll on Saturday was 4688, in Victoria, with a similar-sized population, has registered fewer than 400 deaths. Some, however, may view the loss of life in Arizona as an acceptable price for the maintenance of freedom.”

    What a wonderful piece of hyperbole!

    Paul Kelly (19/8/2020) wrote: “The premiers and chief ministers strut the stage as populist strong men and women – political leaders as police enforcers. They impose rules as they like, boast about their enforcement and justify everything in the cause of health protectionism for a grateful public. There is only one problem. AS a policy, pandemic protectionism is most unlikely to succeed beyond the short term since the ‘indissoluble’ nature of the Australian constitutional compact must be re-asserted at some point and short of a vaccine, total elimination of COVID-19 is a fantasy, as NZ has just shown.”

    So what is the solution? Live with the virus? Is that all? Is that the roadmap out of the pandemic?

  11. corvusboreus

    To me the most disturbing aspect of the whole story is that this attention seeking nitwit and her delinquent idiot of a husband are choosing to breed.
    I, for one, am suffering from a surfeit of serious causes for outrage, concern and out and out fear, and am not about to waste time or effort going in to bat for covid sceptics any more than I would anti-vaxxers, Qanonists, climate deniers or flat earthers.
    Having attended numerous environmental protests, I have seen better people cop worse for less.

  12. Matters Not

    Re:

    are choosing to breed

    Perhaps you are assuming far too much re choosing …. what with immaculate conceptions and all that? Perhaps we might think about our education arrangements and consider whether they are fit for purpose? Better still, we might start from scratch and articulate the purposes of schooling – both the overt and covert curriculum(s) aspects? But more likely we will just muddle through,

    Like a candle in the wind, never knowing what to cling to until the rain sets in
    With apologies to Elton John –

  13. corvusboreus

    By the way, in case people hadn’t noticed, whist we are busy focussing on an idiot filming another idiot being arrested for inciting people to gather together during a deadly pandemic, other more serious shit is going down.

    As an example, the federal government is seeking to bundle all emergency response (bushfires, flood, pandemics and civil unrest) into a new branch within the Home Affairs super-portfolio, for the purposes of ‘easing access to military resource during times of emergencies’.
    In other words, they want to make it easier for Dutton to get his grasping mitts on the army.

    I won’t even mention even more critical biospheric concerns.

  14. mark delmege

    The things is ok course every thing about SARS Cov 2 has been H Y P E D from the start and while government is understandably committed to a course of action a lot of ordinary half intelligent people just dont buy it all any more and thats quite understandable too.

  15. corvusboreus

    Yep, the people on the streets waving screaming ‘PLANDEMIC HOAX!’ whilst waving Qanon banners are the ones who REALLY know what’s going down.
    I should probably start reconsidering my sources on this and other serious issues.
    I’m heading off to infowars to learn some proper epidemiology, and maybe pick up some REAL climate science while I’m at it.

  16. mark delmege

    sorry bout the typos “The thing is of course”

  17. tyrannosauruswenz

    leefe is correct. The woman in question was filming, and her husband brought the children in as props. Police always announce themselves, the woman and her partner knew who was at the door and decided to make themselves viral. This woman had also ignored several warnings.
    I have been through a police raid and what was filmed was polite compared to what I experienced (BTW I committed no crime, they raided my house by mistake looking for someone who lived there previously) My dogs were pepper sprayed, I was detained whilst still recovering from major surgery and whilst a dozen people turned my entire house upside down, damaging and destroying my property to the extent that some of it I only found when we moved house, they had stuck things behind filing cabinets from my bedroom!

    Brutal? Police routinely arrest people in front of their families and young children, and they have no regard for what appointments they may have. If anything, this woman had a very easy time of it. And is now milking it for all it is worth, and being used by the anti-Andrews crowd.

  18. Jack Cade

    It’s not as if a normal ultrasound is life or death. These plonkers have tunnel vision, their minds are not geared to ‘what if…’ The police were fools using cuffs, though. It played into their script.
    The simple solution is to incarcerate these people for a few days with covid-19 positives. Concentrates the mind. I’ll
    bet they’d bleat if an AIDS- positive person moved in next door…
    They remind me of a NSW ultra-right wing politician who, decades ago, campaigned vehemently against heart procedures generally, and transplants and valve replacements in particular. Like all such zealot hypocrites, when the shit hit his personal fan he underwent the terrible sin, that he’d railed against, with undignified haste.
    It’s like churchmen preaching celibacy. The word ‘ niece’ originally meant the daughter of a supposedly-celibate churchman. I believe celibacy is the ultimate sexual perversion.
    Rant over. Tea’s up, Dud…

  19. andy56

    Mark Delmege, you hit the nail on the head, “Half intelligent”. You require the other half to fully understand this is bloody serious. This virus is not a joke as the conspiracy nuts want us to beleive. Lock them all together and watch the fear as they realise they could catch it too

  20. corvusboreus

    I wonder if Poor-lean Hanson is busy on faecebook advocating the use of cattle prods like she did for the kids from Extinction Rebellion back in pre-pandemic days?
    Just a thought.

  21. Michael Taylor

    How the hell can anyone still think that COVID-19 is a hoax?

  22. mark delmege

    Because they look at the figures and see that really the only people who die with the virus are the elderly particularly those in care homes . Do note the term ‘with’ and thats not to be confused with by and its not a small point. And they look at the curves and compare that with the large protests that have taken place particularly in Europe and they see that two or three weeks later there is no spike in deaths. I think its fair to say if you are under 75 and healthy you will not die from exposure to SARS Cov 2

  23. Michael Taylor

    I disagree with you 1000%.

  24. Michael Taylor

    Apart from my above comment, I won’t bother to respond.

  25. corvusboreus

    Every person who allegedly died from covid 19 was suffering from some variant of the pre-existent fatal condition that is generally called the inevitable mortality of biology.
    Very valid observation, Mark.
    I suggest that you cease spreading pandemic denialist poison, especially when it is based on patently false claims, like the absolute bullshit statement that only old people have died from novel coronavirus.
    People will stop assuming ignorance or stupidity and start ascribing delusion or malignancy.

  26. mark delmege

    I just come here to get insulted, I love it. BTW thats not what I said. Anyway I have been arguing against my left and right wing fb friends from around the world against these sorts of arguments for a while now but I am done. I think they are right. It is pretty much (a minor modifier on my statement above) the old sick people who die from SARS Cov 2. Younger healthy people dont. Its not denialism corvu its just a simple statement of the facts as I see it. You are welcome to debate the issues but then dialectics is not your strong point is it? Just to be clear I am not a ‘let it rip’ person. I do believe that our old people deserve respect and care and I think it would be impossible to just lock them up safely but I think I see why many people reject the H Y P E D presentation and are now questioning government policies. And finally just to be clear again I’m not saying they are right or wrong just that I understand why they might think that way.

  27. corvusboreus

    I should not use insulting language but I am utterly sick of people fouling the waters of serious discussions on deadly matters with completely unsupportable claims..
    The average death rate for cases of infection with covid19 is around 3-5% (variable according to factors like access to quality medical care).
    The death rate for the elderly is much higher, but both statistics and on the ground facts show that this virus is more than capable of killing people who are neither elderly nor suffering chronic health problems.
    When someone says ‘it only kills the elderly’ or “if you are under 75 and healthy you will not die from ‘SARS cov 2’ ” they are spreading and amplifying potentially dangerous disinformation on a very serious matter.
    That not only makes me question their credibility and motivations, it also tends to piss me off.
    I have similar reactions when people project greasy mouthfarts rejecting peer reviewed climate science or bray their opinion that the entire field of oceanography is wrong or lying when publishing data documenting accelerative sea rise.

  28. corvusboreus

    Ps, I would admit that, when a person starts doing things like summarily rejecting the published findings of bipartisan official investigations whilst simultaneously promoting a video by ‘millie from infowars’ ( a completely discredited source that has been banned from most media platforms for constituting ‘hate speech’) it does tend to make me jettison any remaining benefit of the doubt.
    Maybe I’m just another member of the sheeple herd, too ignorantly uneducated and unthinkingly gullible to ignore the H Y P E and accept the TRUTH(!!!).

  29. corvusboreus

    A few years back I had a friend who was on the way to becoming an acquaintance open a conversation with the assertion: “funny thing with all this stuff about climate change, the scientists reckon that the ice age killed off the dinosaurs…”
    I did not view this as an opportunity for dialectic discussion, but more as a demonstration of necessity for some education in basic palaeontological science.
    He potentially learned a little bit about recent glacial cycles, differences in timeframe between milleniae and megaannae, the likely significance of an iridium layer and a geological anomaly in the Chixculub peninsula, and the cascading consequences of drastic shifts in climate and environment on extant lifeforms.
    I confess that I learned little from the exchange, except perhaps gleaning another glimpse into how seldom credible evidence (beit theoretical or empirical) actually formulates or influences opinion.

  30. mark delmege

    I think the death rate is far less than 3-5% of all people who have been exposed/infected. I’ve been very surprised at even how few apparently vulnerable people under say even 60 have died. And its a good thing treatments have been refined and less older people are dying.
    Could you elaborate on this ‘facts show that this virus is more than capable of killing people who are neither elderly nor suffering chronic health problems.’

    You didn’t watch ‘millie’ video did you?

  31. mark delmege

    on side issues you raised….
    Bipartisan official investigations – lets me guess you are talking about the intelligence review into the russia thing. You do know who was on that committee don’t you, what they represent and how they got there? Personally I wouldn’t vote for any of them and I did read some of the minority comments contained in the report.
    As for millie I didn’t know it was an infowars production. I did see a youngish women interview two people who claimed to be fairly senior technical operators explain what they did and why they now think it was dodgy and anti democratic – one of them was even a Trump supporter but I though the other one, a female was pretty sharp.
    I haven’t knowingly sought out infowars content for years. But I’m sure even they do some good things sometimes. Hell even Murdoch and the ABC put out some good content sometimes though they are not my go to sources for news and certainly not for foreign news.
    You do know dont you that twitter and youtube are not ‘most media platforms’ but represent a particular niche in the market – and have banned or like google and facebook made it harder to access particular content. I tend to see twitter facebook google and youtube as part of a club not always serving my best interests and that they all work closely with the american intelligence community. But I’m sure you know that.

  32. guest

    It is interesting to read about Sweden’s approach to the coronavirus at statnews.com, July 15, 2020, where Peter Kasson of the University of Virginia School of Medicine and Sweden’s Uppsala University, along with statnews writers contribute.

    “Sweden’s COVID-19 strategy, adopted in March, emerged from the country’s top epidemiologist and other leaders’ evaluation of what little science about the transmission there was at the time, factoring in economic considerations, and making a considered – albeit controversial – decision to stop well short of the full shutdown that other countries in western Europe (and many US states) adopted.

    “…if Swedes had done everything they were allowed to do (especially since face coverings were never required nationally), such as shop and socialise at the same levels they had pre-pandemic, it would have led to a runaway infection,” Kasson said. But “Sweden is a place with a very strong embrace of government authority. When that authority said keep together small, Swedes took individual actions that went beyond the mandated measures,” he said.

    [But a death rate of nearly 12x Norway’s is hardly reason for celebration.]

    “…there is evidence that one reason for Sweden’s high death toll is that when elderly people contracted COVID-19, they did not receive aggressive treatment, Kasson found; if they had, one third might have survived.”

    “Call it ‘individuation. cultural libertarianism, atomism, selfishnes, lack of social trust, suspician of authority,’ The Week columnist Damian Linker wrote, “it amounts to a refusal on the part of lots of Americans to think in terms of … what’s best for the community, of the common or public good. Each of us thinks we know what’s best for ourselves. We resent being told what to do.”

    Some of the points made here apply to the discussion on this thread.

  33. mark delmege

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/09/04/covid-19-death-odds-australia/
    … CORONAVIRUS / HEALTH
    Why are we so scared of COVID when we have more chance of drowning?
    If you’re an Australian under 70 with no pre-existing conditions, your chances of dying from COVID-19 are less than one in a million….
    .
    corvusboreus you said
    ‘When someone says ‘it only kills the elderly’ or “if you are under 75 and healthy you will not die from ‘SARS cov 2’ ” they are spreading and amplifying potentially dangerous disinformation on a very serious matter.’
    what say you now?

  34. corvusboreus

    The author, who is a ‘commentator’ and ‘co-founder of luxury escapes’ opines:”almost 75% of deaths are from. people over 65″.
    Firstly, let me point out that 65 is a decade younger than 75, and secondly, over 25% of attributed deaths is not ‘nobody’.

    Looks like the midnight fruitbats are coming out to feed.
    Time to hit the phartsak.

  35. mark delmege

    I dont mind saying I have changed my mind twice on this issue – as new information comes to hand … and isn’t that reasonable? The big issue is how to deal with the old and it really is only the old that are at risk. The vulnerable aren’t as vulnerable as we were led to believe but hey we/they have got so much wrong over these past 8 months and thats kindof understandable too. Governments here are locked in a political hole dug by experts and it is partly of their own making too by committing to actions that are now past their use by date. I dont blame them overly as I suspect they had our best interests at heart but now its a matter of their own political survival and to admit mistakes is often political death. But the issue of how to protect the elderly remains. What you will see late in this video is why what they are doing now in Victoria might just be compounding the problem.
    But please dont skip to the end and do watch the video in full … yeah yeah I know another f’n video but I guarantee you will learn a lot.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSKjcltDkng

  36. leefe

    mark delmege,

    Putting aside the fact that plenty of previously healthy and relatively young people have died – particularly amongst health workers – what about the potential long-term impact on health? This virus can affect the heart, liver, brain and other organs, including permanent scarring of lung tissue, leaving people sertiously affected for the rest of their lives.

    youtube videos are not science, nor are they evidence.

  37. mark delmege

    leefe its just not true … look at the google doc above and you will see that hardly anyone under 70 has died. I read early this week that those with lung damage get better. but i’m not saying this is a harmless virus but its not as bad as many think and not by a long way.

  38. Michael Taylor

    mark, I have pre-existing conditions (Lupus and diabetes) and despite those ailments I expect to live to a ripe old age thanks to medication and a sensible lifestyle.

    What you’re suggesting is that should I should I contract COVID-19 and I’m carried away in a coffin then I died because of a pre-existing condition, despite those conditions not likely to adversely affect my longevity.

  39. mark delmege

    SARS Cov 2 has been around for quite a while and well before Wuhan as have other similar viruses, maybe you already have immunity, Michael. But thats just my speculation. But whatever my guess is that if you survive the year you wont die from this virus.

  40. Al

    Mark, your words go whoosh over the assembled multitude here, that’s par for course. Thanks for the video link, will check later. On the topic of assembled multitudes did you see this one by Robert F Kennedy speaking to a crowd of an estimated one million protesters in Berlin? Moving from environmental activism against mercury pollution of rivers and fish and subsequent food chain to getting such toxins out of vaccines on behalf of children’s health he is keeping the family tradition alive. My favourite multitude this last week was assembled outside 10 Downing Street and singing a catchy little ditty ‘We are the 99%”.
    Robert Kennedy, Historic Speech in Berlin – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu90-9MKGk0
    Protesters sing outside Downing St – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FElR7zVRp4Y

  41. leefe

    Mark,
    That breakdown of deaths is only in Australia, and the deaths here have been limited by the fact we have had lockdowns and other major precautions to limit spread, reduce impact on the health system and protect essential workers. Get a similar analysis for other countries and you’ll see how false your optimism is.

    You “read earlier this week” that the lung damage eventually resolves? Who said that? Peer-reviewed, evidence-backed studies from reliable sources, or the equivalent of another youtube video?

  42. Michael Taylor

    mark, thank you for your words of hope, which I do appreciate, but one of the sadder symptoms of Lupus is a poor immune system. ☹️

  43. guest

    Mark Delmege,

    I present here a summary of Robert F Kennedy Jr’s speech in Berlin, 29/8/2020.

    “I see people who want real democracy and freedom! People who want leaders who don’t lie to them! Leaders who will not orchestrate rules and measurements to control the population. We want health officials who have no financial connection to ‘Big Pharma’.

    “Governments love pandemics! They love pandemics for the same reason they ‘love’ war! Because it gives them the ability to control the population…
    It’s a big mystery to me why all the so important people like Bill Gates and Tony Fauci have been planning this pandemic for decades and when it comes we will all be saved! But now it’s here, they don’t seem to know what they are talking about! It seems they making it up when it goes along…The one thing they are good at is pumping up fear!

    [He refers to Hermann Goering, asked at the Nuremberg war trials] ‘How did you make the German people go along with all this?’ He said it was an easy thing and has nothing to do with Nazism, it has to do with human nature…The only thing a government has to do to make people slaves is to create fear!

    “But they [the government] did not do a very good about protecting public health. But they did do a very good job during the quarantine, they brought 5G to all our communities and to shift us all to digital currency, which is the beginning of slavery! Because they control your bank account, they control your behaviour!

    “…they are spending five trillion dollars on 5G, the reason is for surveillance and data harvesting…

    “[The pandemic] gives them the ability to ablate the middle-class and to destroy the institution of democracy. To shift all our wealth to a couple of billionaires to make themselves rich by impoverishing the rest of us1”

    What an amazing rant! Shade of climate change being a UN conspiracy to take over world power, etc! Madness!

    Some other sites re Robert J Kennedy JR:

    scientificamerican.com
    “How Robert J Kennedy Distorted Vaccine Science”

    irishtimes.com
    “Robert J Kennedy Jr’s false COVID claims with Alec Baldwin”

    theneweuropean.co.uk (21/8/2020)
    “Robert j Kennedy Jr – the scion who became a conspiracy king”

  44. Jack Cade

    There are very few positives presented by pandemics, but one absolute positive in Australia is that the virus has exposed the grotesque behaviour and leeching off some the most vulnerable members of our society. People go into aged care to be looked after, not overlooked. The appalling discrepancy between government-run establishments and private-run establishments indicates wholesale negligence and possibly massive fraud. If we had a government with any humanity in it we would see private enterprise booted out of aged care, forthwith.
    More than half a century ago a conservative state government in South Australia ripped the electric power supply off private owners because of profiteering, and it would probably have done the same with aged care. But they don’t make conservative premiers like Playford any more. Or Labor premiers, for that matter. although Don Dunstan might have done it.
    Playford also planned the South Eastern freeway from Adelaide to Melbourne, which was to run right through the Downer estates. When the squire complained, he just said ‘Tough. Shit happens!’ or words to that effect. For that alone he should be revered!

  45. mark delmege

    Not a Kennedy fan myself (thought I think its fair to say democracy died in America when Bobby and John were assassinated) not since I heard and checked out his claims on autism and vaccines some time back.
    Leefe you might be surprised when you look at the charts from overseas. BTW I would have agreed with you a month ago but the evidence is in.

  46. Uta Hannemann

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu90-9MKGk0

    Robert F. Kennedy Jr – Historic Speech in Berlin – 29.8.2020!!

    “”Governments love Pandemics…!”, Robert F. Kennedy Jr shouted to hundreds of thousands of freedom loving people from around the world today in the heart of Berlin. It has been decades since a Kennedy spoke the last time in this city in front of such a large crowd. That was really a dramatic and extremely emotional moment for everyone attending.
    . . . .

  47. guest

    Uta,

    Which American speaker in Germany said in German that he was a jam bun (a berliner?)

    Robert Jr is not the same as Robert Snr.

  48. guest

    Uta,

    Which American speaker said he was a jam bun (a berliner?)

    Robert Jr is not the same as Robert Snr

  49. Jack Cade

    Guest

    The rumour went that his speechwriter wanted him to go to Hamburg and Frankfurt and claim ‘Ich bin ein Hamburger’ and ‘Ich bin ein Frankfurter’, because the jam bun claim was JFK’s own, handwritten closing sentence, not his speechwriter’s.

  50. Michael Taylor

    Hamburg. Germany’s Liverpool.

  51. Jack Cade

    Michael Taylor

    Used to be. It’s Dortmund now!

  52. Michael Taylor

    Jack, my news is old. I was going from my old copy of Alan Williams’ “The man who gave the Beatles away”.

    Times change. Liverpool is a beautiful city.

  53. Jack Cade

    Michael

    I was teasing you! Hamburg IS like Liverpool in both its origins, and it’s nurturing of musical talent from Merseyside will never be forgotten by Beatles fans.
    I was alluding to Dortmund and Liverpool’s football connections!

  54. Al

    Mark, the UK govt is out in the open, they want to force everyone to have a covid19 vaccine.
    The lessons learned in the Nuremberg Trials no longer apply, informed consent is an undemocratic concept apparently.
    The only immunity offered in the future is going to be to vaccine manufacturers.

    This from the UK govt: “However, if loss of immunity from civil liability was automatic after breach of any condition included in the licensing authority’s approval, that might lead to unfairness. . . Our preference is to make this an objective test – the view of a third party. That gives rise to the question of who should be the ‘objective bystander’ whose view the Courts should determine. For consultation purposes, we are proposing (draft regulation 174A(3)(b)) that “…any risk of death or personal injury that is wholly or partly attributable to that breach is such that a reasonable person [with an interest in placing medicinal products on the market]”
    https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/distributing-vaccines-and-treatments-for-covid-19-and-flu/consultation-document-changes-to-human-medicine-regulations-to-support-the-rollout-of-covid-19-vaccines

    The main point of that passage: “who should be the ‘objective bystander’ whose view the Courts should determine. . . a reasonable person [with an interest in placing medicinal products on the market]”?
    Answer: Bill Gates, or one of his quislings! You need an objective bystander with an interest in placing medicinal products on the market” Who else but Silly Billy?

    I see society being led around by Neo-nazi sympathizers with two things in mind – the destruction of natural healthy bodies and removal of democratic rights. It seems the Nuremberg Trials were a waste of time.

    And a real pandemic would have 100% of people dying “from” only disease X, not 6% – https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200901/covid-19-primary-not-only-cause-94-percent-of-deaths

  55. mark delmege

    I think its quite possible Al, that like H1N1 a vaccine for this virus which is apparently already on the decline will be a useless MMM exercise (make more money)

  56. Al

    Mark, Swine flu or Swindle flu? 10 years ago the WHO pulled a similar stunt, “squealing like stuck pigs that the sky is falling” – ‘Why the WHO Faked a Pandemic’ – https://www.forbes.com/2010/02/05/world-health-organization-swine-flu-pandemic-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html#4840813b48e8

    Today 6% of deaths attributed ‘to’ covid by media hacks are actually ‘from only’ covid, the other 94% have co-morbidities.
    How’s that any different to previous flu seasons – it’s not.

    Let the Neo-nazis win seems to be the main message from Murdoch’s henchmen and women, or is that henchboys and girls who will say whatever it takes to keep their jobs? The public panic can be traced back to endemic levels of narcissism – I fear death – I’m too important – save me with some kind of drug – anything will do, as long as I’m not forced into contemplation of the death of this body. All at the expense of freedom. What a farce society as a whole has become. Something else to laugh about 🙂

  57. guest

    AI,

    I have posted above an abbreviated copy of Kennedy’s speech in Berlin because of the conspiracy nature of the speech.

    I post now because I believe the epidemiologists rather than false social media.

    This site I now refer to is at livescience.com “Viral claim that only 6% of COVID-19 deaths were caused by the virus is flat out wrong.” (2/9/2020)

    “This claim stems from an Aug. 26 update from the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) [where 6% was mentioned]

    ” ‘When you look at the number of excess deaths this year in comparison to previous years, it’s staggering,’ Dr William Hanage, a professor of epistemology at Harvard University School of Public Health…Hanage notes that many of the people who have died so far had nonfatal diseases and would not have perished but for contracting the new coronavirus as well. For instance, someone with diabetes or high blood pressure might have lived decades longer if they had not contracted COVID-19.”

    [Trump retweeted the misinformation, but his post has since been removed.]

    “Dr Anthony Fauci appeared on the TV show ‘Good morning America’ to correct the misunderstanding. ‘There are 180,000-plus deaths – are real deaths from COVID-19. Let there not be any confusion about that,’ he said.

    ” ‘Death is not the only outcome that matters, ‘ said Dr Eduardo Franco at McGill University, Canada.”

    So, AI, we all wish the virus was not here and that we did not have to deal with it, but when I read about Kennedy’s conspiracy theory and your idea that only 6% of deaths are caused by the virus, I had to check it because I believe the epidemiologists of the world just as I believe the IPCC-type climate scientists of the world.

  58. mark delmege

    guest there are competing narratives. I did post a video earlier where excess deaths were discussed in great detail perhaps yours is correct and mine is wrong or vice versa I’d argue neither of us can be certain. But I think I can say quite safely that the ongoing public protests of huge numbers of people particularly in Europe over months has not led to a 2nd wave of deaths.

  59. Mark

    guest – why rain on this conspirators’ tea party? They were having such fun. There was Bill Gates, the WHO – with George Soros waiting in the wings. Alongside of Santa Claus, the Cookie Monster, Elvis, ….

  60. guest

    Mark, yes, there are different narratives, some more weird than others. I remember when reading about Sweden and the virus that they said they were early on making decisions without really knowing anything about the virus. They took a different path and at one stage they had 12x the casualties of Norway. And looking back at the number of fatalities of the elderly, said that with a tougher stance early they might have reduced the numbers substantially.

    As for why people are protesting, the reasons must surely be multiple – which makes giving instructions from central authorities very difficult, but necessary. There will always those who want to excepted: those cut off from family, those unemployed, those losing their business, those who are just plain political…Second waves? Who knows? Herd immunity? Hot spots? Lack of distancing? I do not know, but I am not taking any chances, even if I am one of the 99%.

    I am no expert on anything, but I have found in recent years that anything a bit sus needs checking – and most often I find there is plenty of stuff which I understand, but no one is saying – especially when I see some media not telling the truth.

  61. Michael Taylor

    George Soros. He gets around. We’ve had people here (long in the past) who were convinced that Soros funded this site.

    If only! We could go places with a $10 million cash injection.

  62. mark delmege

    Yes guest plenty of conspiracies out there and I have tried to avoid them but as they say ‘just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean people aren’t out to get you’. And you can wager that there are plenty lining up with barrows to cart away the cash anyway they can get it.
    Sometime down the track we could do with some insightful articles on process, psychology and decision making – for starters.
    As for Sweden their lax approach early certainly killed a lot of elderly in care homes but they are not orphans, ah?

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