A New World Order or yet another Monumental Blunder?
Can someone tell me just what it is that our eight strike fighters are expected to achieve by joining an international coalition aimed at defeating Islamic State? What can they do that the awesome power of the USA together with Great Britain and other NATO countries could not do?
It seems to me that all this brouhaha that we have been subjected to by a heavily compliant media about our involvement in yet another Middle Eastern conflict has been little more than an exercise in mind manipulation. It is similar to the kind we were earlier mesmerised with in 2003 when the coalition of the willing invaded Iraq. Remember ‘Mission Accomplished’? What happened?
At that time it was all about weapons of mass destruction. As we all know now, there weren’t any and the Iraqi Army which was, at the time, described as the fourth largest army in the world, turned out to be a bunch of pussies who turned and ran away.
And have we now forgotten that we spent eight years in Iraq with that same coalition on the pretext of training the new Iraqi Army to deal with any subsequent incursion. Now, just five years later it appears that this same western trained Iraqi army has all but collapsed and can’t even protect its own people. So isn’t it reasonable to ask just what kind of training we gave them over that eight year period? What the hell were we doing?
On Insiders last Sunday, Defence Minister David Johnston said there were still pockets of the Iraqi army functioning. Pockets? By now it should be patently obvious to anyone that Iraq was a far better governed nation under Sadam Hussien than it is today. It was wealthier, militarily stronger and more than capable of defending itself against its immediate neighbours.
Today, it resembles a basket case. It is oil rich but cannot defend itself against an insurgency far smaller than the size its own regular army. And, once more that army has chosen, when under threat, to run away. So how good was our training program?
No one would contest that Sadam was a despot who ruled with unrelenting brutality. He deserved to be toppled but the real reason the USA invaded in 2003 had more to do with sectarian politics and personal hatred than any concern about his brutality. If you think otherwise, then ask why hasn’t America intervened in Syria.
Our present government and the Labor opposition have betrayed us. Our presence, our involvement in the establishment of the new Iraq has been exposed as a monumental failure. Now we are going back to try and fix it. The reality is that we know nothing of what these air strikes will achieve and will be given nothing but heavily censored, favourably worded reports of “ongoing successes” as the campaign drags on till whenever.
Civilian casualties will be concealed or minimised, if not redacted, so as not to upset our delicate sensitivities or impact upon our support. It will be years before the truth comes out, at which time all the excuses about the damage done will have been carefully rehearsed, denied or made to look like someone else’s fault.
The only reasons the public have shown their support for our involvement in this engagement is a few beheadings and because it has been restricted to air strikes, not combat soldiers on the ground. We rationalise that our pilots will be safe at 30,000 feet. If it escalates to a point where combat troops are being considered, the support will evaporate very quickly.
The strength of Islamic State seems to be somewhere between 20,000 and 100,000 depending on which source you believe. Such a disparity in their perceived numbers suggests that nobody really knows. Western intelligence looks to be somewhat flawed. They seem to be making it up as they go along, just like they did prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
And it is the 2003 conflict where today’s problems were born. Michael Brull of New Matilda gives a detailed account of how ISIS came into being; the result of yet another monumental blunder by the invading, conquering Western coalition.
We are such a far cry from George Bush Senior’s promise of a new world order made back in 1990; not that I believed him at the time. We have every reason to doubt this latest intervention will bring us any closer. If I sound cynical, it’s because I am.
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Sean
Return to home pagespot on John…. and are we sick of these clowns? you better believe we are !
I feel so much safer knowing that we sent two planes to fly over Iraq. Not sure what they were doing as they didn’t use their weapons at all. Sight-seeing? Relieving boredom? Chance to have your photo taken? Higher combat pay?
As of 2012, the US Air Force operates more than 5,638 aircraft, 450 ICBMs and 63 satellites. It has a $140 billion budget with 332,854 active personnel but I am sure they really appreciate our two planes.
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Breaking news from whatisname the Australian Defence Minister :
"RAAF armed flights over Melbourne"
Whoops !
In the propaganda war for Aussies that should read :
"RAAF armed flights over Iraq".
The green, fly blown meat (Abbott) floating out in the International wind is now being seriously embarrassed by Iraq's refusal to let him drop bombs on Iraqi Sovereign Territory.
The puddle on the ground below the green fly blown meat is formerly known as Shorten ….. and apparently even the blowflies want nothing to do with it.
How much longer can Australia hold out before the joy of dropping bombs rings through the corridors of the MSM ?
How much longer can the Abbott government hold out with meaningless Howard War Part 2 reports to the MSM ?
I’m worried about the other aircraft flying at 30,000 feet.
You know, the ones that carry the mums, dads and kids of the world.
We’ve already lost one passenger plane due to ‘a mistake’ possibly two.
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@Kaye Lee
Since September 18 2014 Australia has had 6 FA-18s, 1 KC-30A tanker, 1 AWAC and C17 and 600 RAAF personnel in the U.A.E ( Al Minhad Air Base south of Dubai.).
Also C130 Hercules are making supply missions to Iraq.
Some 200 ADF personnel are also expected to assist the Iraqi forces (previously trained by the U.S. and are still running from the sight of I.S.).
Into this (un)civil religious war Abbott has raced to beat every other country in an effort to divert attention and raise his polling.
Agreed John.
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@John Kelly
According to latest reports the "Coalition of the Willing Part 2" have killed 'dozens" of I.S. fighters.
It appears I.S. has control of an area that has 8 million inhabitants in it.
That area is functioning as a "State".
I.S. sells oil, has raided the banks and has no shortage of foreign monies.
The "dozens" of I.S. fighters killed by the "Willing Part 2" should seriously hamper their ability to continue gaing ground.
In the same way that Abbott's Budget cuts will see Pensioners pensions keep pace with inflation.
John Lord
This new world order is taking process right now!
When ASIO get all their new powers don’t be surprised that you may go missing or your family and friends might just be baffled by your disappearance.
What? I can hear you saying.
If you keep on writing adverse articles against Team Australia, you just may be deemed as a National risk which necessitates your disappearance and just maybe a bit of torture to ensure that you comply with Team Australia.
After a few weeks you miraculously reappear, broken physically but not in spirit, so you trot off to the MSM to voice your complaints about govt. brutality.
As soon as you relate your story of torture you are immediately ushered out of the MSM offices by security. The reason being that they face 10 years jail for reporting your story.
It’s happening now via a staged managed security crisis. 800 Police to make one or two arrests sounds like an Irish joke, like how many Irish does it take to change a light bulb?
The writing is on the web!
On your TV right now CoW Pat II, the not to be missed follow up to the disastrous CoW Pat I but now with more players than ever to ensure it really stuffs up this time.
Not to be missed is a cameo by Australian war planes, armed but not dangerous.
The above was for John Kelly, sorry got my Johns mixed up.
John Kelly, from Brull’s linked article:
While Brull has focussed on Iraq, (and does a good job) one needs to look elsewhere to understand the other factors. This article by Ali Mamouri explores deeper causes and why we won’t succeed in the longer term with our current approach.
http://theconversation.com/anti-terrorism-plan-must-tackle-allies-who-also-fuel-radicalism-31981 ..
Well said John Kelly. The worst thing about monumental blunders is when you don’t learn from them!
It amazes me that the 3 governments you discuss (UK,USA,AUS) are precisely the first to say
“Don’t pay ransom money. It just encourages them.”
And yet are so quick to jump to the will of IS because of a few beheadings.
How many soldiers are we all willing to sacrifice to avenge these few deaths and how many of their families would like to think this was so?
It is a war of guilt. That is for certain.
To repair the initial screw up. Or try to.
You say the truth won’t come out for years yet? By the time we have wasted billions of dollars convincing the MSM gullible voters that Tones deserves another go at driving us further into recession, there will be no money for a Royal Commission or even a modest inquiry.
The blind being led by those who cannot see.
To understand why Australia is involved in a war that isn’t a war, we all need to understand the bigger picture. We need to leave our own problems with Abbott long enough to see where, what, how, when and why he is so intent on taking Australians to war. Abbott and the US is just using Australians as ‘cannon fodder’ to enable the major beneficiaries to attain their goal. Read some of the info here and follow the links:
http://www.independentaustralia.net/business/business-display/rupert-murdoch-oil-man,4124
http://nomadicpolitics.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/on-environment-romney-and-hannity-share_12.html (need to go about half-way down the page to see Murdoch’s involvement in above agenda)
We all know the US Govt is owned by Corporations but we have little idea – or comprehension – of just how entrenched and powerful they have become. Nor do we or the US Govt in Washington know just what their ultimate aim is. Once they have achieved that aim – and they are well on their way to doing that – then what?
Getting back to Australian politics, I believe the problem is simply too big for a fragmented Opposition to deal with – thanks to Murdoch’s success at destroying the ALP with his continuous vicious attacks and denigration of the Australian Greens. As far as I can see our only hope to regain our Parliament and our country and for removing Abbott and his Murdoch master is for our politicians to call a bi-partisan meeting for the Upper and Lower Houses and work together as one to force a double dissolution.
I know ~ I’m off to see the “flying Pigs” through my tears. I cry for my country.
<
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/west-blame-middle-easts-troubles/2409688/
Anne Aly is a Research Fellow in extremism, radicalisation and online extremism at Curtin University.
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"Australian fighter jets have joined the air campaign against the Islamic State, conducting two armed flights across Iraq overnight."
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australian-fighter-jets-conduct-first-armed-flights-over-iraq-20141006-10qog3.html#ixzz3FK9shiIy
I.S. must be terrified to look up 30,000 feet in the sky and see "fully armed" RAAF fighter planes.
The MSM continues to confabulate Howards war Part 2 being run by Abbott.
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Breaking News !
Now its the ADF Aussie lawyers fault that Abbott can't drop bombs on Iraq.
Question that Shorten will never ask …… "why did Abbott send the RAAF to the Middle East on September 18 2014".
Stay tuned for the next excuse.
It will help Abbott hopefully get re-elected “it’s his Falkland moment” and we know how that turned out, he could even rush into an early election saying Labor will not support our boys by not passing his budget. or may be I am paranoid memo to self don’t forget my medication
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Where ya been bilko ?
Haven't seen you around for a while.
Galaxy polling already has Abbott winning the next election …. with 60% all for Howards war Part 2 run by Abbott.
One benefit of not having “boots on the ground” with the attendant, tame, vetted “embedded” media… there less chance of awkward questions about innocent civilians being killed…
David “Gunna” Johnston was all over the shop on “Insiders”. Apart from the constant contradictions… “it might be easier than we first thought..” and”… although there are some excellent elements in the Iraqi Army to work with…” and “…we’ll degrade the baddies” and “… it might be more easier..” (?)
It all sounded a bit too much like a Boy-With-a-Toy.
Seems that 40,000 booing Rabid-the-Hun at the the footy isn’t newsworthy… I thought it was a significant poll!
True… it is selling oil.
But you might reconsider the “raided the banks” part… that particular story is quite likely bullshit…
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@lawrencewinder
ABC reports that the "war" is only going to last a couple of months.
Aussies believed that lie back in 1914.
If the yanks have managed to kill "dozens" of I.S. with its bombing its looking like approximately $1 million per I.S. head.
At that rate and with I.S. having at least 30,000 murderers this 'war" is going to cost at least $3 trillion …… for starters.
John Kelly ……… an excellent article ….. thank you.
John Kelly:
I strongly object to that statement. Before the illegal, needless invasion… anyone with any curiosity, who CARED to find out…. already KNEW the WMD story was so much bullshit. It was fairly obvious (but not certain) from the moment Colin Powell made his silly, pathetic presentation at the UN.
People all across the planet marched and protested in February 2003… and we were all well acquainted with the lies, fabrications and hysteria around the bogus WMD argument.
Minbani
Thank you for your links, I have read very similar articles and now have another 1 or 2 to add to my collection. Here’s some interesting stuff………
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-redrawing-of-the-map-of-the-middle-east-begins-with-destruction-of-iraq/5387928
http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-to-start-a-war-the-american-use-of-war-pretext-incidents/28554
How long the con?
Iraq’s modern borders were drawn in 1920 by the League of Nations when the Ottoman Empire was splintered by the Treaty of Sèvres. From the time of the Crusades until the arrival of European powers in the 19th Century many sects and tribes in this region lived separately from each other and often in disharmony. Today’s artificially made Iraq is defined by nice straight lines drawn in 1920 by Sykes-Picot; neat lines that do not correspond to real sectarian, tribal, and ethnic boundaries. This unnaturally made Iraq was always liable to break apart; all that was needed was a trigger; the trigger that was provided by the ‘Coalition of the Willing’.
‘Islamic State’, known as ISIL, is an expression of instability in this region. The Sunni extremism of countries such as Saudi Arabia, opposed by the sectarian power of Shiite Iran, together with an oppressive government in Syria, together with the now irreversible disintegration of Iraq, plus the ongoing painful reformation of Islam ─ all contribute to the turmoil of war in Iraq.
This is a mess the Abbott government has taken Australia into by joining yet another even more inept ‘Coalition of the Willing’. More inept because it is a war that is about tactics with no strategy and with no defined goal ─ intrinsically a war that cannot be won. The coalition’s campaign will continue for years. US defence chief General Dempsey has admitted there is the probability of a deeper involvement; combat troops may be needed if the current tactics are not successful. President Obama has acknowledged that the current air war campaign will probably not succeed.
“How did Australian armed forces come to be involved in the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, and why? What were the decision-making processes that led to that commitment?” Rt Hon Malcolm Fraser AC.
Malcom Fraser’s questions were not answered. The same questions must be asked again: ‘Why are we involved in another war in Iraq and what were the decision-making processes that led to this commitment?’
It is clear that we are not at war in Iraq for the absurd reason given by Prime Minister Abbott, quote: ‘Australia’s mission in Iraq is humanitarian’.
Shall we be killing with humanitarian bombs?
I suspect we are at war again for domestic political reasons. I suspect the Abbott government has taken us into a war that it does not understand, in a region it does not understand, against peoples it does not understand.
It seems to me that in Iraq we confront the savage expression of a Faith. Against faith war is a simplistic usually futile option. After the killing is done, the war will end, as always thus, with the harder options of dialogue, patience, and the final necessary understanding. It is assuredly apparent to any intelligent person that the horror of ISIL will not be expunged by the horror of this war.
Michael Brooke
michaeljbrooke@bigpond.com
(02) 6632 2518
Monday, 6 October 2014
Sending our 8 fighters will be just as useful as pissing in the ocean to raise the sea level. Just another Abbott “Look over there!” stunt.
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Latest Breaking News !
Defence Minister whatisname is reporting that 2 fully armed RAAf F-18s were on "standby" when they flew over Iraq …… and they were "not needed".
Stay tuned for next Abbott excuse as to why he has had 6 FA-18s, 1 KC-30A tanker, 1 AWAC and C17 and 600 RAAF personnel in the U.A.E ( Al Minhad Air Base south of Dubai.) ……… sitting in the U.A.E. since 18 September 2014.
Do not mention the Budget.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0
Isn’t it interesting that there is MORE discussion and skepticism in the US about the purpose of this war… than there is in Australia?
Here’s Everything Wrong with the White House’s War on the Islamic State
http://www.thenation.com/blog/181844/heres-everything-wrong-white-houses-war-islamic-state
Hey John:
We sure showed em didn’t we with our two speedy fast jets that flew in circles taking pictures of terrorists embedded in local communities.
Oops I just realised the drones do that and they also do a lotta the bombing. Damn there’s gotta be someone to blow up.
Golly I am proud to be a useless dreamy Aussies with no idea what the hell is going on.
You blokes and your bloody history think your Mr Smarty pants so I’m gunna tell on you to that nice MR Brandis and get ASIO onto ya. Good dose of physical exercise and rehabilitation in solitary for you pricks.
Damn lefty wankers.
War makes a man outta ya just ask Tony he knows. Volunteered and all that during the other Gulf Wars didn’t he?
What he didn’t!
Hey Tones heres your big chance to show us how you stand by your principles. Wouldn’t want young Sheilahs and blokes dying while you live in opulence now would we?
Now how do we get kids, pensioners and the bludgin unemployed over there.
Get Mathius Moron on it cause Joe’s a bit stressed and depressed at the moment after loosing his lollies..
Thank you Kayla Flamenco Malaysia for your links….more very interesting reading.
Its like Lombardy in the 6th century, a group of Nordic barbarians take over the joint during a weekend jaunt and end up Lords and Ladies.
Bremer, the Kissinger employee, made the call to disband the Iraqi armed forces in 2003, Security Contractors were all that was needed to guard the other Contractors, who were taking over the joint much like the Lombards.
I too found the articles very informative so thanks Kayla Flamenco.
Mars08, yes, you and I knew beforehand there were no WMD’s….that idea was entirely manufactured. But there were some poor deluded souls, like Andrew Bolt, for example who were certain they existed. My reference was more for them than the more astute readers such as yourself.
Ah, Paul Bremer…. Viceroy and Prince of Baghdad. The bloke who cancelled Iraqi elections when it looked like the approved and vetted candidates would not win.
The fool who ordered the de-Baathification of Iraq, a policy that was largely responsible for fueling the Iraqi conflict by pushing tens of thousands of men with military training into limbo… or into the insurgency.
Why is that slimy bastard still free? And still giving his opinions on American TV?
Mars*:
Thanks for reminding me had forgotten his name. What a vile little arrogant fool. You are absolutely right that is where ISIS gained its military wherewithal. Got rid of all the Sunni bureaucrats and military personnel and sent them home to poverty and hardship. Furthermore the Suni recently had to deal with a serious drought. They were not only trained military personnel some also learned all the skills of torture and through terrorizing and murdering their Shia neighbors and any dissenters. Good old Chemical Ali. A bunch of very unpleasant butcher boys. That de-Baathification worked a treat didn’t it. Like that monster Henry Kissinger, Bremer will never come before the international court for his callous mishandling of the civil government.
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Latest More Breaking News !
Australia's Defence Minister whatisname say Iraq might not need Australia's RAAF.
From the ridiculous to the absurd.
And still the stinking green, fly blown meat known as Abbott is hanging out there blowing in the International wind.
Abbott is now officially stinking up planet Earth.
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@John Kelly
Didn't howard say he had "regrets".
Those "regrets" do not appear to slowing Abbott down with Howards war Part 2.
John Fraser
I had a few logon issues however I have been lurking but this mobs latest look over there distraction, has raised my hackles.
While we have no MSM active in this country and that include the abc (still not worth capitals).
These independent sites are all we have left to vent our spleen with, not at and tell us what is going on.
Winston Smith of 1984 fame should be working overtime rewriting last weeks news if he lived in this day and age but he is being made redundant like many others in Australia overtaking by the murdoch hacks who fail to report events let alone the need to rewrite.
The mad monk fails to learn anything(what did he study at uni, certainly it was not history) now raised to the status of “De Furher” strutting the world stage ignored by almost all except loonies like murdoch.
End of rant any way have a great day all.
By the way who is your avatar, no one I recognise.
“Defence Minister David Johnston says the government does not know how much Australia’s military mission in Iraq will cost the budget bottom line, but the matter will be addressed in December’s mid-year economic update.
As Australian fighter jets joined the air campaign against the Islamic State, conducting two armed flights across Iraq overnight, Senator Johnston said “the cost element is something that we’ll work through in due course”.
Labor has warned it will not give the government a “blank cheque” to fund the cost of the war.”
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/defence-minister-david-johnston-says-he-doesnt-know-what-iraq-war-will-cost-20141006-10qryl.html
“There will be no new spending under a Coalition government that’s not fully-costed and fully-funded.” – Tony Abbott August 25, 2013
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@bilko
My avatar is before your time.
Good to see that you have regenerated.
David Kilcullen, the nation’s top counter-terrorism expert, Peter Leahy, the former leader of the Australian army when it was deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Peter Jennings, the head of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute think tank and the advisory team for the government’s new defence white paper all warn that the Islamic State terror group cannot be defeated by airstrikes alone and a substantial ground campaign will be needed to avoid the war against the jihadists grinding to a stalemate.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/terror-war-to-be-won-on-ground-experts-question-strategy/story-e6frg8yo-1227079650288
It’s my understanding that we’ve 6 F18’s in UAE at present with, is it 2 more following? Doesn’t seem like much bang for the bucks, does it? Makes 62.5 million per aircraft per year. Shit I’m glad it’s just a mission and not a war, aren’t you? I think they used the same accountant on the Cambodia deal. 40 million gets us 4 or 5 transfers maybe, if it suits the Cambodians. Makes Labor’s Malaysia deal positively shine in comparison. Back to the point though, and I use an old expression here; destroying ISIL with bombing will be like picking fly shit out of pepper with boxing gloves on. Good luck with that one, Sir Pository. But it’s not really about ISIL is it? It’s about the Abbott image and polls and re-election and all the associated effing lies and deceit that go with them. What a disgusting piece of work is this grub and all his Team Idiot members.
Kaye Lee:
Ooookay… but I have a better idea…
Labor should just shut TF up!!. It has precisely ZERO credibility in this matter. Fekkin wankers!
Bilko, at first glance I thought your avatar was Captain Binghampton from McHale’s navy, but not sure.
here’s another link of interesting reading re how necessary our fabulous new anti terror are (not) …
A video of what they really mean …… (this starts 20mins in)
The Moment of Truth: http://youtu.be/Pbps1EwAW-0
and another video, how to create a modern Empire!
You’re A Warmonger: http://youtu.be/Dr4cDN0xx88
@Kayla Flamenco Malaysia:
The new anti-terror laws and police raids are part of what the govt calls… “Operation Hammerhead”
I’d like to suggest a slight name change to, Operation Enduring Dickhead
I think it gives a better indication of what it’s really all about.
stephentardrew:
The Iraqi people has to suffer through much more than just a serious drought…
Want to talk about a “death cult”, barbarism and a callous disregard for innocent civilians?? How many Australians people know about the horrible conditions in Iraq during the 1990’s?
There HAS BEEN NO NO GAP in the suffering of the Iraqi people from 1991 until today. The US and Great Britain (with others) ensured that Iraqi society was driven into the dust. Several UN officials quit over the cruel and inhumane sanctions.
The fact is that Iraq, as a nation state, was already teetering on the edge of the abyss when the US launched it’s illegal and needless war of aggression in 2003…
QUOTE:
In 1998, the UN carried out a nationwide survey of health and nutrition. It found that mortality rates among children under five in central and southern Iraq had doubled from the previous decade. That would suggest 500,000 excess deaths of children by 1998. Excess deaths of children continue at the rate of 5,000 a month. UNICEF estimated in 2002 that 70 per cent of child deaths in Iraq result from diarrhoea and acute respiratory infections. This is the result—as foretold accurately by US intelligence in 1991—of the breakdown of systems to provide clean water, sanitation, and electrical power. Adults too, particularly the elderly and other vulnerable sections, have succumbed. The overall toll, of all ages, was put at 1.2 million in a 1997 UNICEF report.
The evidence of the effect of the sanctions came from the most authoritative sources. Denis Halliday, UN humanitarian coordinator in Iraq from 1997 to 1998, resigned in protest against the operation of the sanctions, which he termed deliberate “genocide”. He was replaced by Hans von Sponeck, who resigned in 2000, on the same grounds. Jutta Burghardt, director of the UN World Food Programme operation in Iraq, also resigned, saying that “I fully support what Mr von Sponeck was saying.”
There is no room for doubt that genocide was conscious US policy. On May 12 1996, US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked by Lesley Stahl of CBS television: “We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that’s more than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?” Albright replied: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it.”
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/05/10/16098561.php
Ah, but yeh. Let’s not let that stuff distract us. Because, as our righteous politicians relentlessly tell us… there are nasty people HERE AND OVER THERE, who (apparently) hate “our freedoms”. And that’s all we need to know.
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Australia's likely "partner" in Howards war Part 2 being run by Abbott.
http://www.popularresistance.org/the-hypocrisy-of-beheadings-19-in-one-month-in-saudi-arabia/
Massive outcry about the murders I.S. is committing while in Saudi Arabia it is government sponsored.
So when is Abbott going to invest in renewable energy so that Australia can get away from oil ?
Never !
A thought has occurred. As the U.S. considers itself the almighty of almighties, the police of the world, and spokespersons for absolutely everyone, I doubt that a little leader of a small population ( previously admired ) nation – Australia …. would make much impact, or be seen to be able to make much impact.
Considering that Abbott and Obama ( ideologically ) are on opposite sides in the political stakes and at table, and given that Abbott has thumbed his nose at the efforts the U.S. and so many other countries, are making regarding climate change ….. I am wondering if Obama ( Democrats ) might just put the Abbott right back in his place …… by NOT calling on our military in air-strikes. And hopefully making him look like the fool that he is.
I believe however, the U.S. WOULD call upon us for boots on the ground. …. Wny not. ….. Better to get the hell blown out of us, if it means less U.S. military are killed ” in the line of duty ” ? Brings to mind the Gallipolli massacre of Australians, because the British WANTED it that way – back then. We were ordered, we obeyed the commands of ‘our’ Empire, and were brutally murdered in the process. ( I cannot think of Gallipoli without tears and grief – to this day ).
I would NOT put it past the U.S. to do exactly the same bloody thing. ….. Not because they are essentially brutal, but simply by reason of politics ….. international politics, and war strategy. Coalition of the Willing ( C o W ) …….my arse.
——–
Think about it.
the abbot has grand-standed his way through all of this debacle – from day 1. He even pre-empted the U.S.involvement, being first to put his hand up to ‘ have a go ‘ ( according to reports I have read ).
Never mind Abbott’s reasons ( look here, not there ) ….that is now on the back-burner. Abbott’s aim ( so very obvious and delivered with no diplomacy whatsoever ) …. is to be seen as some kind of ‘saviour’ …. for ‘ his people’ and for many else in the world.
He has however, conveniently forgotten about refugees, their plight, and the REAL humanitarian crisis that is Ebola in the West of Africa…..On that tragedy, he has his Minister for Foreign Affairs ( waaaay out of her league ) Julie Bishop, stating emphatically that we cannot help.
And bellieve me, she would be obeying his directives. There are many ways we could help West Africa … but it’s not important enough apparently ….. war – of any description … is WAAAY more important.
———-
Abbott sees himself ONLY as centre stage ….. IN the big picture, and God help us, he is continuing the search for the downed ( ? ) Malaysian Airlines MH370 which went missing on March 8th, 2014. The Governments’ own website : http://www.atsb.gov.au/mh370.aspx
has updates on it, the latest being 1st October 2014. More grandstanding by this PM – at the expense and reputation of Australia.
And where is all the money coming from for this all this monumental expense ?. Ultimately from our pockets, to complete a future that doesn’t exist for our children – even for our grand-children.
Something has to change – very very quickly.
Mark D., immediately after 9/11, at a Whitehouse security meeting, Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and Co. wanted to use it as an excuse to invade Iraq because they wanted to get rid of Hussein. They didn’t care whether he was responsible for 9/11 or not; it was personal. Hussein had made death threats against Bush’s mother. He was also a threat to oil supplies and potentially, the economic stability of the U.S. They knew they could do business with the Shia majority. He had to go and with him the Sunni minority. From that point on, a plan was constructed to invade Iraq on any pretext they could manufacture. They could not find anything to connect him to 9/11 so they invented the Nuclear story. That was my point. So, yes it was secular but also sectarian.
John Kelly I don’t get what point you are making with this
…’No one would contest that Sadam was a despot who ruled with unrelenting brutality. He deserved to be toppled but the real reason the USA invaded in 2003 had more to do with sectarian politics and personal hatred than any concern about his brutality. If you think otherwise then ask why hasn’t America intervened in Syria…
Anne you really should get over this idea you have that Obama and Abbott are on different ideological sides. They Aren’t.
@mark delmege…
I suspect that John Kelly meant to say “…the real reason the USA invaded in 2003 had more to do with SECULAR politics…”
“The increase in mortality reported in public hospitals for children under five years of age (an excess of some 40,000 deaths yearly compared with 1989) is mainly due to diarrhea, pneumonia and malnutrition. In those over five years of age, the increase (an excess of some 50,000 deaths yearly compared with 1989) is associated with heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer, liver or kidney diseases.” Approximately 250 people die every day in Iraq due to the effect of the sanctions.
– UNICEF Report, April 1998.
“We are in the process of destroying an entire society. It is as simple and terrifying as that. It is illegal and immoral.” Denis Halliday, after resigning as first UN Assistant Secretary General and Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq, 1998.
Now tell me again why may Iraqis mistrust and/or hate the west? Oh… that’s right… it’s because of their weird religion… and because they hate “our freedoms”. Such strange people…
John:
Many people forget, or should I say avoid, history simply to belong to group think no matter how contradictory and revisionary. Without history we are lost and without memory we are open to all kinds of lies and deceptions. Conservatives are the sin qua non of revisionary history twisted to meet their demented objectives. Some of us must be the bearers of truth that passes through the fog of disinformation for we cannot let whats has gone be lost from memory. Mars8’s reminder of Paul Bremer is a point in question. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Mark – we shall have to agree to disagree. But to a point only. Please read ::::
They ARE on different political sides. I had to explain to an American friend the other day ( when HE had seen some news there about Australia – anti-Muslim, anti-climate change … not the country it was. yada, yada, yada )….. { I think he was actually having a bit of a go at Aussies in general } ….. that :
a) Australian Labor Party ( ALP ) is traditionally left which = Democrats in the U.S. who are left ( but also labelled ‘liberal’ in thinking ) — That might be where confusion arises…. .. Both ALP and Democrats are considered left wing progressives.
b) Liberal & National Party ( LNP ) is traditionally right which = Republicans, traditionally right wing …. and extreme right would be Abbott now ( and the Tea Party followers there ). Both LNP and Republicans are considered right wing ‘conservatives’.
That IS as it IS.
So – we have Abbott who is extreme right conservative ( LNP = Republican if he was a U.S. politician ) — and …… we have the ALP which is allegedly left ( centre, medium and extreme ) …. which = Democrats – Pres. Obama is an elected Democrat President.
They cannot POSSIBLY agree on many things, be on the same ‘side’ and remain true to their set of political beliefs.
Obama was initially very cautious about his foray into the Iraq / ISIS / Syrian conflict.
Unlike our swash-buckling hero Abbott – who plunged head first ( a la Republican like ) …. into the fracas.
Oh sure – as gentlemen ( ??? ) they appear in photo-ops, hand-shaking and smiling. ALL pollies do that.
Leaving aside the war for a moment, you could not possibly tell me that Obama would be at all pleased or in agreement, with Abbott’s dismissal of climate change ( wonder if the Pres. heard about the ‘ it’s crap’ statement ) ….. as not relevant, not a problem, and then adding insult – not turn up at the Climate Change meeting, one day before he addressed a less than full auditorium for his grand ‘speech’ to the U.N Security Council – 25th September.
Sorry Mark …. cannot agree to ‘get over the idea’ of their differences – as you have suggested.
Anne They are both neoliberal – Obama is the speech reading figurehead Emperor and Abbott the quisling satrap – they both root for big business and free enterprise.
Do you really think Obama was unaware what was happening in Iraq and Syria – do you really think his morning intel briefs told him nothing about how the money guns and support he put into Syria also bled into al qaeda and IS? And how all this would play out and the purpose of it all. Hasn’t it ever occurred to you that maybe this chaos is part of a deception (plan)?
No John I think you are mistaken. ‘Gulf War 1’ never ended. It continued as the country was divided into three and as sanctions killed the people and economy and as military sites were regularly attacked and bombed for ten years. Weakening every institution and grinding the country to a stop. WMD’s were just a ‘justification’ to finish of the job. Just a lie – like so many others. Bush jr finished off what Bush sr started and what Clinton continued. Of course Australia was a significant jr partner in it all every step of the way – just as it is today – under both the Libs and Labs – and some people still insist we have a two party system. It wasn’t only about controlling the flow of oil and opening up new capitalist markets – it also got rid of another critic of Israel and supporter of Palestine.
Indeed. During the 1990’s, the harsh sanctions and relentless bombing of Iraq by Great Britain and the US (and sometimes France) killed thousands and thousands of civilians and pushed Iraq’s society to the brink. I recall reading that, during that period, Iraq was being bombed every second day on average.
But that’s not barbarism, right?
It seems they’ve dragged Jim Molan out of mothballs yet again. Our “Special Envoy”, the man who was paid over $1 million to be the “fixer” of all things to do with asylum seekers and who then disappeared, the man who was invited to contribute to the defence white paper and quit after a couple of weeks, is now speaking out about our “mission” in Iraq.
Scott Burchill, in a scathing assessment of Molan, said “it would be surprising for military men to advocate political solutions to global conflicts. It’s not their area of professional expertise. By default they lead with their strongest suit – organised violence – not geopolitics or diplomacy.”
Molan was the chief of operations of the allied forces in Iraq with responsibility for the operations in Fallujah. Faith in military solutions convinced Molan that George Bush’s troop surge in Iraq delivered “victory” to the Western occupiers, a reasonable judgement if victory is defined as the destruction of the country and the immiseration of its population. If you claim to have run the war in Iraq, it may be necessary to believe this nonsense. By almost any measure, the war in Iraq has been one of the greatest military catastrophes of modern history.
In 2009 he recommended in articles in The Interpreter and in the Australian Army Journal to send a further 6000 Australian troops to Afghanistan for up to 5 years. Despite growing public opposition to sending more troops (65% of Australians were opposed) and a failure to subdue the Taliban since we first attacked them in October 2001, Molan still believed a military victory in Afghanistan was “a fair probability,” even if he could neither define it nor explain why the course of the war would suddenly change with additional foreign troops.
In language borrowed from the Bush Administration, Molan claimed “our enemies play on our morality and exploit our goodness,” blaming the waning ‘popular’ support for the war for exposing “our greatest vulnerability, our resolve.”
Heaven help us.
“While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for substantial American force in the Gulftranscends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.”
~From the PNAC paper Rebuilding America’s Defenses… published September, 2000. A strategy promoted by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Elliot Abrams, Michael Ledeen, Richard Perle, William Kristol and other GW Bush insiders…
“One can only hope that we turn the region into a cauldron, and faster, please. If ever there were a region that richly deserved being cauldronized, it is the Middle East today…”
~Michael Ledeen {August 6, 2002}
!
Kayla Flamenco MalaysiaOctober 6, 2014 at 7:13 pm
Bilko, at first glance I thought your avatar was Captain Binghampton from McHale’s navy, but not sure.
KFM
I am heartbroken I thought everyone new of Sgt Ernie Bilko played by Phil Silvers, Sgts run the military, officers just get in the way speaking from experience here with the RAF way back. Some wag once said about the air force, one good thing it is mostly officers sent out to fight maybe the army should try it. With the navy you are all in the same boat.
John FraserOctober 6, 2014 at 5:07 pm
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@bilko
My avatar is before your time.
Good to see that you have regenerated.
John it must be old I am only a young 70's regenerating every day unlike time lords who only can do it a dozen or more.
cheers all
Even earlier – early to mid 1980’s – I should check the year – And lets not forget our minor (as far as I know) involvement in IranContraGate when weapons were sold to both sides in the war between Iraq and Iran and part of the profits were used to fund the anti Sandinista Contras in Nicaragua. I wont remind you who was the Labor PM was at the time but he allowed (allegedly) weapons to be parked here before on shipment to the ME.
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@bilko
" With the navy you are all in the same boat.."
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@Kaye Lee
Take deep breathes when you read this :
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/immoral-tactics-onlyway-molloy/2410907/#c960071
More than half a million Iraqi children died as a result of sanctions according to a report published in The Lancet.
The report was prepared by Sarah Zaldi of the private, non-profit Center for Economic and Social Rights in New York City and Mary C. Smith Fawzi of the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston.The two public health experts visited Iraq in 1995, under the auspices of the U.N. FAO. They had gone to Iraq to collect information on child mortality…
“The moral, financial and political standing of an international community intent on maintaining economic sanctions is challenged by the estimate that since August 1990, 567,000 children in Iraq have died as a consequence”
Are those tactics “immoral” enough for ya???
John:
Just another nutter calling himself an intellectual. If you can’t beat em join em. What a fool.
The US lied us into an unnecessary war and now that bum sniffing troglodyte Abbott thinks it is our job to clean up their mess. Normally I just trundle along with MSM lies however this is an appalling reconstruction of the facts that is leading us down another pathway to endless conflict war and terrorism. Let the US and the Arab League fix up their own mess.
That so many Australians live in such ignorance is just mind warping. This is not about our ethical obligations but the necessity for the US to take responsibility for their unmitigated stuff ups. Why isn’t Paul Bremer in jail? If not why the hell are we marching to war?
While there are so many protected war criminals in the US who can believe anything they say. Obama is a big fail and Abbott a total and complete incompetent fool.
As for Shorten and Labor’s silence one despairs.
@Mark Delmege .. yr comment ( October 7, 2014 at 12:04 am ).
You have given much food for thought …. thank you.
I admit to being more ‘back in time’ in my thinking …. understandably at my age … ( & I should avoid writing posts late at night !!! )
I did not consider neo-liberalism and it’s implications / application. Mind you, MOST leaders in the world are for power, money ( and more money ) so-called ‘free trade’, privitisation, de-regulation, and decided advancement of the private sector in the economy ( the bigger the better ) – all of which we have seen here over a period of time, and are continuing to see.
This leads directly to the first 4 words of this article “A New World Order” ….. which has been mentioned by several powerful leaders in recent times.
There are conspiracy theories about a new world order, but that usually comes from fearfilled radical Christians ( and maybe other religions ) as they see a commune-ism ( somewhat different to communism ) …. taking over – one world body of power, and everybody implanted with little microchips – to keep track of their doings. Guess it could happen, but I believe that’s just hysteria.
Don’t think a new world order would work myself !!
Mark …. furthermore ( continuing )
As for Obama you said it ….. ” Obama is the speech reading figurehead Emperor ” ( forget Abbott for the moment and what HE might be ) …. ” FIGUREHEAD ” …. definition : ” a nominal leader or head WITHOUT REAL POWER .”
The intel Obama receives each morning, would be only what the CIA, FBI, NSA and other agencies, decides to tell him. They are after all the button pushers, the bods with the plans. Obama’s advisors. It is impossible for one man to retain ALL that information, so he decides what he will speak of ( or not ) from what he has been given.
He was however, initially cautious in his approach to it all. Perhaps he chose his words carefully – – – to avoid as much backlash as possible ? …….. He needn’t have worried. Americans appear to be all for war over anything – anytime. ….. the utter devotion to their military says enough. …. Military is sacrosanct to them. ….. they are certainly not the most peace-loving people on earth ( from experience) !!!
Unlike our own alleged leader – Obama did not bulldoze his way into the concept of continuing the war in Iraq ( which was an inevitability in my opinion ) from the moment the U.S. and Australia stepped away from ‘teaching’ the Iraqi army how to fight ! …. That was simply, never going to work.
“This chaos is part of a deception :” …… in fact yes, that has occurred to me – many times, but not in the same way you might have thought it through. …. I wouldn’t trust power hungry anyone, to do right by their ‘subjects’ … us …… – not in the long term. We get help from time to time, ( old Labor did that – tried to look after the people ) ….
Now ? Who knows.
John Fraser ….
I took deep breaths and read : http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/immoral-tactics-onlyway-molloy/2410907/#c960071
I have heard quite a number of people ( neighbours, friends, even family – all who shall forever remain nameless ) …. say pretty much the same kind of thing. One, almost word for word ( leaving out Government backed mercenaries in some countries ).
Governments always employ mercenaries – at some stage, during conflict. Even though they deny it vehemently. (Western Governments that is ).
I will not elaborate any further.
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@Anne Byam
So after all the Burqa hullabaloo you want to send Aussie troops into Arab cities to do street to street fighting against Arabs.
Or … wait a minute … you want to send in mercenaries.
Anything stopping Aussies from joining these mercenaries ?
Then they can come back to Australia and have absolutely no back up support if they have mental problems.
Suggest to your neighbours that they offer boarding for those mercenaries.
Come back with their answer.
@John Fraser ….. ummm …. hellloooo there – – – – wake up, John.
……
Where exactly have I said ANYTHING remotely like what you are accusing me of ?
Come on – YOU come back with YOUR answer.
What the H E L L are you on about ???
Nothing stops former soldiers from becoming mercenaries if that’s what they want – any bloody where, from any bloody country ….. and you KNOW IT. Soldiers selling out to foreign interests – ( but also used in the past, by Western countries.)
Ever heard of Academi …. formerly known as Blackwater. No ? Look it up for yourself.
……….
The very LAST thing I would want to see is Australian ‘boots on the ground’ ANYWHERE – especially in the Middle East – AGAIN.
How dare you suggest I would infer such a thing.
………
Burqa hullabaloo ? How did THAT get into all this ?
As for returned soldiers ( mercenaries included ???? ) …. returning to any country and getting proper post-war treatment, for PTSD and other forms of war injury – and ongoing care …… you obviously don’t know the half of it.
Many do NOT receive the proper consideration and recognition, especially with health / mental conditions as a result of war, when they return home.
And that is DISGUSTING, and deeply disturbing.
……….
Don’t plead satire or sarcasm either. Your comments were totally uncalled for.
If you are man enough to make it ……… I will accept your apology.
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@Anne Byam
The suggestion is that Australia pay mercenaries.
No one has ever said that returned soldiers are ever treated with respect when they return to Australia …. they always have to battle the government.
The Americans had "contractors" looking after the U.S. contractors rebuilding Iraq.
Mercenaries by another name …. do you think the companies are still paying their health benefits ?
It is well known …. although you appear not to know …. that Burqa clad human bombers have taken a deadly toll in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If Australian mercenaries take up the offer to go to Iraq …. aren't they Aussie "boots on the ground" ?
Should you ever write anything of value I will happily compliment you.
Until then I cannot see any reason to offer you anything.
Except perhaps sarcasm and scorn.
stephentardrew
Sadly one of the “facts” is that Australia should shoulder more than a little blame for this tragic mess. We have long been one of the loudest cheerleaders for US aggression. That said, we have precisely nothing positive to contribute to improve the situation… and we should just butt out!!!
Mars8:
Agreed however it is time to stand on our own two feet and call a spade a spade and a load of garbage a stinking heap of deception and lies. Where the hell is our indignation?
Only then will we be able to stand as a true nation among nations willing to criticize regardless of a fawning need to crawl at the feet of a truly lying and deceptive nation ready to taking us down the road to endless war and terrorism.
We, as always, are bit players and don’t have to join the main game.
What is wrong with changing direction and admitting past mistakes?
The alternative is too shocking too contemplate.
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Abbott goes to war without raising taxes.
Must be the same as cutting $3 billion from Social Services and telling Pensioners they will be better off.
Perhaps its time for a "Super War Tax" to be levied on Billionaires.
Make a change from levying the lives of Aussie men for the war machine.
stephentardrew:
“Where the hell is our indignation?”
Exactly. We have no credibility on this topic and we have precisely NOTHING positive to contribute to improve the situation. Time to have a good hard look at ourselves and show some remorse.
But that will NEVER happen. Because… well because the cowardly, lazy politicians can’t have us considering a “black armband” view of our past!!! Onward and upward! No regrets! Go Team Australia! oi oi oi etc…
John:
It’s not going to happen but they should put on the Khaki and march off to war then see how willing they are to glorify violence and deception. By the way I would take the cash as well.
Definition of mercenary ( noun ) ………..” a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army. ”
or ….. once known as ‘soldier of fortune’ … or a ‘hired gun’ …. If you or anyone can come up with any other definitions – please do so.
…….
Your comment : ” The suggestion is that Australia pay mercenaries.” ….. is that YOUR suggestion ? Or are you again inferring something you THINK I meant / said ?
I would think that mercenaries ( as soldiers ) …. returning, and ‘signing off’ would NOT be taken care of by their former employers i.e. a private army.
——-
I DID KNOW that burqa clad ‘people’ have blown the hell out of themselves and as many others as possible. Why would you assume that I ( or anyone else on here ) would not know THAT ?
——-
Australian mercenaries ? ….. do you have any actual information about those ( if any exist ). Some born / bred Australians could be or have been, radicalised and sent back to work in a ‘foreign army ‘ – against their ‘enemies’ ( the West and infidels ).
” Boots on the ground ” ? I was referring to the Australian Defence Forces …. regular Australian army infantry, and specialist SAS etc.
and you DAMN WELL KNOW IT.
——-
……………”Until then I cannot see any reason to offer you anything.” – you said.
Which, translated means you are not man enough to apologise for your ill-mannered, insulting and quite ridiculous accusations against me ( previous post ).
I would now not take ANYTHING offered by the likes of yourself.
Back atcha ……. no sarcasm ……. but plenty of SCORN.
———
p.s. you can have all the ‘last says’ you like ….
I am totally finished with you, your comments and your extremely nasty, and puerile insults.
Will do my best to avoid reading anything you have to say on these pages again.
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@Anne Byam
"Your comment : ” The suggestion is that Australia pay mercenaries.” ….. is that YOUR suggestion ? Or are you again inferring something you THINK I meant / said ?"
I thought you said you read the Article.
Your exceptionally tiresome with your dictionary resources.
All that upper casing (that you deplore others doing) must have left you feeling pretty exhausted.
Thanks for your (once again) exceptional generosity in giving me the last word.
Why not have a long cool drink ….. perhaps humble water ?
Another interesting alternate view. Can’t vouch for its accuracy however makes ya think. Doubts not such a bad thing.
oh dear ! the aussi contribution looks, for all the world ,like the work experience kiddy who gets to go for the office staff coffees . ‘ Send them to Paris for 16000 coffees and 20000 croissants , that should keep them busy .’
@stephentardrew. ……….. Thanks for the link ( I think ).
It was indeed an interesting view …. a very interesting read.
Undescores ( in it’s way ) the big bloody mess this all is, and could be — – – way into the future.
Ladies & Gentlemen: Precision Bombing Practice, no more and no less.
You’ve got some of it right, John Kelly, but you just don’t get it. You just don’t understand what 100 years of meddling in middle eastern politics and creating countries out of whole cloth to suit western interests has caused — the creation of arbitrary country boundaries to corral in the best oilfields across ethnic divisions and setting up puppet leaders like Saddam Hussein to keep them in line by any means whatsoever, the fake false flag events to make excuses to go back in to those countries when it looks as though control is being lost, etc etc. The Iraqi army under Hussein was a cruelly conscripted army with brutal punishments for non-performance. Hussein was selected and put in by the CIA, ultimately. And yet you malign the Iraqi army now as though Iraq was ever a real country, rather than a convenient line drawn by the British after WWI and WWII with their ‘zones of influence’ and broken promises of Arab nationality? You have a lot of historical reading and thinking to do before you write such pieces. Come back in a year and try again, perhaps. I don’t think you are currently qualified to analyse the situation. and I don’t think it’s worth any of our time to read a half-baked and uninformed ‘analysis’ like this on AIMN.
You’re right about the ulterior Anglosphere motives for drawing in token Australian forces to lend credibility to re-invading the middle east, but you have a long way to go to get the full picture.
I’ll place a couple of links in a separate note below as a starting point for research, so they don’t get held up in excessive moderation in this post.
A couple of interesting links on middle eastern history since 1850:
http://grist.org/climate-energy/what-if-we-never-run-out-of-oil/
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/History/Oil_and_the_Origins_of_World_W/oil_and_the_origins_of_world_w.HTM