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Rewriting history.

 

Breaking news:  In an exclusive report in the Daily Telegraph, the Coalition review into education is complete and Christopher was right. We need to go back to basics, use phonics, and rewrite history.

“History should be revised in order to properly recognise the impact and significance of Australia’s Judaeo-Christian heritage.”

Firstly, how did the Telegraph get hold of a report that has not yet been released? Could it be because the men who produced it both publish articles in Murdoch papers?  Always wise to keep in the good books should the consultancy work dry up.

Secondly, how did two men finish a report into the National Curriculum in a few months when it took the experts years and tens of thousands of submissions?

Thirdly, how much did it cost to get them to write up what Christopher Pyne said would be the result before the review started?

And finally, do these guys actually understand what Judeo-Christian means?

In January, Christopher Pyne promised “balance” and “objectivity” when he launched a two-man review of the Australian national curriculum. He appointed business academic Ken Wiltshire and education consultant Kevin Donnelly as reviewers.

Immediately after the announcement, a startling element of religiosity entered the discussion. Donnelly, who runs a one man Education Standards Institute committed to “Christian beliefs and values” which is owned by the K Donnelly Family Trust, announced in an ABC TV interview that government schools needed more emphasis on religion and more recognition of Australia’s “Judeo-Christian tradition”

He was chief of staff for Kevin Andrews when he was shadow education minister and in the 1990s worked for tobacco company Philip Morris on developing an educational program for school children.

Writing in the Punch in 2010, he warned about the impact of voting Green in the Victorian state election.

“Government and other faith-based schools will also be made to teach a curriculum that positively discriminates in favour of gays, lesbians, transgender and intersex persons,” he said.

In 2011, Donnelly argued that Christians and Muslims do not accept the same values and beliefs, and expressed concerns about a booklet written by academics to help Australian teachers include Muslim perspectives in the classroom. He was upset that the book did not convey:

“…what some see as the inherently violent nature of the Koran, where devout Muslims are called on to carry out Jihad and to convert non-believers, and the destructive nature of what is termed dhimmis – where non-believers are forced to accept punitive taxation laws.”

He is a vocal critic of educational strategies designed to help students appreciate that there are multiple valid worldviews and perspectives.

“Add the fact that students must be taught ‘intercultural understanding’, with its focus on diversity and difference, and are told to value their own cultures and the cultures, languages and beliefs of others, and it’s clear that the underlying philosophy is cultural relativism,” he wrote in the Australian earlier this year.

So what do Donnelly and Pyne mean by our Judeo-Christian heritage?

Quite frankly I have no idea.

First used by early 20th century biblical scholars, as a theological term it is based on the supersessionist view that Christianity is regarded as a religion that has superseded its (outmoded and irrelevant) precursor, and consequently, a redundant Judaism is regarded, in condescending fashion, as a religious anachronism.

During the early1940s, the term Judeo-Christian was used in America to show solidarity with Europe’s persecuted Jews, and was recycled after 1945 by Christian apologists anxious to convince surviving Jewish communities that the Holocaust was a ghastly cultural aberration.

Both scholar and major US Jewish theologian Arthur A Cohen, in his 1969 The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition and US Rabbi and author Jacob Neusner in his 2001 Jews and Christians: The Myth of a Common Tradition have pointed out at great length that the idea of historic Judeo-Christian harmony ignores, amongst other matters, a 2000-year narrative of theological antipathy and a millennium long narrative of violent persecution of Jews in the name of Christianity.

Cohen comments as follows:

“I regard all attempts to define a Judeo-Christian tradition as essentially barren and meaningless … at the end point of the consensus when the good will is exhausted, and the rhetoric has billowed away, there remains an incontestable opposition.”

The term was revived by Reagan as part of the Cold War Christian rhetoric against the ‘godless’ Soviets.

In Australia, it rarely appears until 2001. Until September 11, it appears Australians didn’t give a fig about Judeo-Christian values.  The political intent driving its use changed from one of inclusion to one of exclusion in the post-September 11 era, when it most often signified the perceived challenges of Islam and Muslims.

Monash academic Sue Collins finds that the “Judeo” element is merely tacked on for political expedience:

“The term has become a kind of shield for undeclared conservative interests which really want to privilege, and actually mean, the Christian tradition, but are conscious this would be politically counter-productive.”

Perhaps before they presume to rewrite our National History Curriculum, these gentlemen may want to do some research into the shaky foundations on which they want it based.

106 comments

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  1. Graeme Rust

    Let me guess, Missie hissie fit poin had the report already written out for those two giants of democracy to hand to him???

  2. Matters Not

    Is Islam included in the Judeo-Christian tradition? Someone might ask Pyne.

  3. Kaye Lee

    Zis is TAOZ (Tony Abbott’s Australia). Ve do not say Islam here!

  4. Matters Not

    Given that Islamic schools are forced to teach the national curriculum, are they expected to teach this revised curriculum which writes themselves out of ‘history’. Just askin …

    BTW, this Judeo-Christian tradition – just isn’t. Perhaps Pyne to do a ‘Hunt’ with Google and become informed.

    Be interesting to see how this plays out. They haven’t had a ‘hit’ to date and this will just add to their woes.

  5. aravis1

    Better option of all: we should get started on writing these lackwits out of our history altogether. There is only one option with bullies, especially when, as so often, they are terminally stupid: stand and refuse all cooperation. This should be happening NOW; I am trying very hard to be patient with my fellow Australians, but time is running out.

  6. Kaye Lee

    aravis,

    I would like to fill the public gallery in Parliament and when Abbott (or Morrison or Andrews or Pyne) got up to speak, to silently stand and turn our backs on them as our Indigenous brothers and sisters did to Brendan Nelson.

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/13/1202760367682.html

  7. Kaye Lee

    The 2011 census showed the second-largest group in the religion category, and the one which had grown the fastest, was the 22.3% who claimed to have no religion. Over the ten years since the 2001 census, this group grew from 15.3% to 22.3% of the population; an increase of 7%, which was the largest change of any religious classification in that period.

    Minority religions practiced in Australia include Buddhism (2.5% of the population), Islam (2.2%), Hinduism (1.3%) and Judaism (0.5%).

    weekly attendance at Christian church services is about 1.5 million, or about 7.5% of the population.

  8. Anomander

    If Abbott, Hockey, Pyne et.al. are role models of ‘good Christian values’, I’d rather all children were educated as Atheists.

  9. Matters Not

    Firstly, how did the Telegraph get hold of a report that has not yet been released

    I suspect (know) it was leaked by the Minister. Neither Wiltshire nor Donnelly would be silly enough to ‘leak’ before Pyne had the Report and ‘suggested’ changes, if necessary.

    It would seem that the Telegraph’s become the paper of choice, re leaks. The timing is interesting. Sundays are usually slow news days and leaks like these on Sundays are designed to get TV coverage on tonight’s TV news.

    One can expect that Pyne gets a free ride. No serious and challenging questions.

  10. stephentardrew

    Fools hiring fools to get foolish pre-determined outcomes. These guys and their religious stuff is certainly trying my patience though I do try to be reasonably tolerant.

    Gnashing of teeth and waving of arms doesn’t seem to help. How the hell do we fight irrationality when it is so deeply embedded in the culture.

    Promotion of secularism, democracy and justice seem to be the only way. How to empower science against ideology? It would be so simple for religions to suspend ideology for factual proof of the causal contingencies that lead to inequity while maintaining their need for God and whatever myth they like to believe in.

    This urge to bully citizens into conformity with fairy-tails is completely undemocratic and just plain stupid.

    It’s time to admit that religion and dogmatism is implicitly undemocratic and needs to be constrained from direct political influence if it conflicts with demonstrable facts. However difficult it may be it is time to challenge the nonsense that is leading to so much inequity and dysfunction.

  11. Doc

    It seems that I must be the only one who uses the phrase Judeo- Christian heritage as meaning Christianity developed from a Jewish society. The Old Testament contains Jewish religous stories. Of course some Christian sectors use only the New Testament, thereby proving themselves isolationists to the exteme. Hence when I describe Australia a having a Judeo Christian legal system or more precisely an ethics system, i mean that the laws and ethics are grounde in Old and New testament stories. Being over 2,000 years old at its youngest point therefore, the J-C System is simply an interesting insight into the development of laws and cultural attitudes.
    Point two. I agree that the origins of this new report are dubious in the extreme, however we give Pyne too much credit if we claim he wrote the report. He obviously has no respect for researchers and lecturers and thinks that newsmen are capable of writing an in depth report on education a field they do not work in. If this is where he gets his facts we are in deep trouble.

  12. aravis1

    Yes, Kaye, that would be a fitting protest, and very hurtful to the sensitive souls. Wish I was in Canberra; I would organise it.

  13. clarelhdm

    Thing is, these fools are not interested in any sort of true academic or scholarly investigation into the historical development of religion or culture. These reports are anti-intellectual pseudo investigations into nothing… just a sham to cover an intended ideological outcome. If these fools stay around much longer I imagine they will even dispense with this pretense and just decree ‘that it is so’.

  14. Kaye Lee

    This government is not even listening to its spiritual leader….and no, I don’t mean you George.

    “Human action which is not respectful of nature becomes a boomerang for human beings that creates inequality and extends what Pope Francis has termed ‘the globalization of indifference’ and the ‘economy of exclusion’ (Evangelii Gaudium), which themselves endanger solidarity with present and future generations,”

    “Creation is not a property, which we can rule over at will; or, even less, is the property of only a few: Creation is a gift, it is a wonderful gift that God has given us, so that we care for it and we use it for the benefit of all, always with great respect and gratitude,” Francis said.

    Francis also said that humanity’s destruction of the planet is a sinful act, likening it to self-idolatry.

    “But when we exploit Creation we destroy the sign of God’s love for us, in destroying Creation we are saying to God: ‘I don’t like it! This is not good!’ ‘So what do you like?’ ‘I like myself!’ – Here, this is sin! Do you see?”

    Abbott and co are the type that go to mass to be seen.

  15. clarelhdm

    Maybe we should all start appealing to Pope Francis and tell him how our fearless leader is giving Catholicism a bad name

  16. Matters Not

    The Telegraph reveals:

    The report found excessive curriculum content was affecting students’ learning quality

    How would they know? Does the Report contain ‘original’ research? Is it just hearsay?

    But I wouldn’t worry because both these two have a history of making recommendations in ‘tomes’ that soon gather dust on the shelves and are rarely read let alone implemented.

  17. Kaye Lee

    Could be a plan clare.

    Pope Francis appealed to institutions to offer concrete help to the hundreds of thousands of refugees who continue to flee conflict and persecution in their homelands.

    “Millions of refugee families from different nations and of every religious faith live through dramatic stories and carry deep wounds that will be hard to heal” he said.

    And the Pope appealed to the faithful “to be close to these people, sharing their fears and their uncertainty for the future, and alleviating their pain with concrete measures”.

    “May the Lord sustain those people and institutions” – Francis prayed – “who work with generosity to assure a welcome to refugees, recognise their dignity and give them reasons for hope”.

    http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-francis-appeals-for-concrete-help-for-refugee

    and also….

    Pope Francis said the Catholic Church must shake off an obsession with teachings on abortion, contraception and homosexuality and become more merciful or risk the collapse of its entire moral edifice “like a house of cards”.

    In a dramatically blunt interview with an Italian Jesuit journal, Francis said the church had “locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules” and should not be so prone to condemn.

    The Pope spoke about the role of women in the church, saying their “deep questions must be addressed”.

    “We have to work harder to develop a profound theology of the woman,” he said.

    “Only by making this step will it be possible to better reflect on their function within the church.”

    He hinted that he was open to giving women greater decision-making roles in the church.

    “The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions,” he said.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-20/pope-francis-says-church-must-shake-off-homosexuality-obsession/4970058

    We are like the family who left Catholicism decades ago and still adhere to beliefs they no longer share – our current batch of Catholic politicians are out of touch with the modern world even by Pope standards.

  18. Maureen Walton (@maureen_walton)

    I am starting to get really scared and afraid of our new Australian values. What happened to our old ones they served us a Nation extremly well world wide. Now since LNP have become Goverment, we have gone DOWN in the worlds standards and fast going to what Christians all call Hell.
    Where we now care about no one except some of the rich, who are getting richer and those in the LNP and and a few independants. I remember when we had Respect, Empathy towards all. Now looks like they have gone forever to be replaced by more so called Christian Religion, Power and Money..

  19. stephentardrew

    Matters Not:

    Research is based upon scientific methodology and should have nothing to do with ideology. I am sure you know this I am simply making a point. Self reports and opinion are the most unreliable methodologies for producing robust evidentiary proof. Deferring to Popes is no substitute for experimental facts. I am sure there are many things we could demonstrate that Pope Francis believes that have no verifiable proof. Compromise within compromise is no solution. I support his promotion of just and equitable policies but if the fundamental precepts are, by en large, dysfunctional then the compromise still leaves gross irrationality in control of peoples lives. I am not trying to convince religious people simply setting out the dangers of partial compromise.

    What a minefield. However whether today or tomorrow we must inevitably confront these issues.

  20. Kaye Lee

    Matters Not,

    “The review confirms what all education ministers are hearing from parents and teacher, that there’s simply too much to try to learn and students and teachers are swamped,” Pyne said.

    “I think the states and territories will believe this [review] is a step forward in a positive direction,” he said.

    “I would like to see most of it adopted… There is nothing in it that I can see that the states and territories would baulked because nothing is trying to drive a political agenda.”

    The review identifies the need for a number of pivotal modifications to the current curriculum:
    •There should be fewer subjects, especially in primary school education
    •Gaps have been uncovered in the content of each subject
    •A failure to adequately cater to students with disabilities
    •Too complicated for parents to understand
    •Abandon cross-curriculum priorities of racial perspectives in every subject
    •The question of whether the overall curriculum was balanced
    •The current curriculum lacks a holistic vision

    “Overcrowding means that teachers are finding it difficult to implement the Australian curriculum and cover all the content in each subject,” the Australian government said in response to the review.

    “It also means that students are not necessarily getting the right amount of time devoted to the content in each subject that they really need.”

    http://www.businessinsider.com.au/national-curriculum-review-christopher-pyne-says-students-and-teachers-are-swamped-calls-for-reform-2014-10

    That sounds like a “NO” on the research.

  21. LOVO

    Maureen, these psyco’s have no empathy or respect for anything or anyone ‘they’ deem not normal. What they continually fail to see is that it’s ‘them’ that are not ‘normal’. The harm these idiots are doing to ‘our’ self image, ‘our’ culture of the ‘fair go’, both here and overseas, will take along time to re-right.
    “The latest revelations about the Abbott Government have led psychologist Lyn Bender to wonder: is Prime Minister Tony Abbott incapable of human feeling? ”

    http://healingfromcomplextraumaandptsd.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/glad-to-see-validation-a-psychologist-with-the-same-insight-as-i-do-into-abbott-and-pals/

  22. Kaye Lee

    critics have warned the report may reignite a “culture war”.

    It recommends ramping up the focus on Western civilisation and Australia’s Judeo-Christian heritage and scaling back emphasis on indigenous history and Asia.

    It calls for greater emphasis on the democratic underpinning of the British system of government to Australia’s development.

    The report also raised concerns about teachers’ poor grammar and punctuation.

    “It’s hard to expect teachers who have never been taught grammar, to teach it,” the education minister said.

    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/10/12/national-curriculum-review-pyne-targets-teachers-bad-grammar

    It’s hard to expect Liberal hacks who have never been educators to develop a National Curriculum.

  23. Matters Not

    stephentardrew and Kaye Lee, I never believed that Donnelly and Wiltshire were in the business of being ‘serious’. Mainly because of their track records.

    Wiltshire headed a review of the Queensland school curriculum for the Wayne Goss Labor government, actually at the invitation of Kevin Rudd. It was a review that had to be extensively rewritten in Rudd’s Cabinet Office. Rudd was furious. Even then it sunk without trace.

    Donnelly came to Queensland at the invitation of Bob Quinn. He asked for copies of documents and then gave them to the Minister in the form of ‘recommendations’. Hilarious. He’s the Alan Jones of the education world. People just don’t take him seriously.

  24. Florence nee Fedup

    Judeo-Christian – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian

    https://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RVEB_enAU608AU608&q=Judeo-Christian+

    Judeo-Christian is a term used since the 1950s to encompass the common ethical standards of Christianity and Judaism, such as the Ten Commandments.
    ‎History of the term – ‎Ethical value system – ‎Culture

    Yes, phonetics are still taught. Most of what Pyne rants about is addressed in Gonski. Yes, and public schools work hard at getting parents involved. one school I am aware of, has homework from first day of school. Homework that parents have to be involved in. report is more waste by this government.

    Judeo-Christian is a phrase that comes from the far right in the USA. Means very little at all.

  25. Anomander

    Challenging the religious is an exercise in futility and frustration. No amount of evidence is ever going to sway their beliefs because everything they believe is founded upon faith.

    Faith – by its very definition = belief without evidence.

    So, the more facts, proofs and questions you pose to them, the more they see it as a test of their faith, and that acts to merely harden their resolve to confirm in their minds more strongly that their beliefs are right.

    The actions of this government follows that very same pattern – that of deeply rooted fundamentalists. Despite being presented with clear, irrefutable evidence from a plethora of experts, they instead choose to create their own panels and commissions, designed to support their own outmoded belief system and proving their blind faith is correct.

  26. mars08

    ‘Who controls the past,’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.’

    1984 by George Orwell
    Part One, Chapter 3

  27. clarelhdm

    Pope Francis is reframing Catholicism to be more about compassion and good works, and less about ideology. One could say what Jesus really intended, though i am not a believer. I really don’t care what it takes to motivate people to act with kindness and compassion, I am happy if they are Marxist;Leninists, Muslim, Christian or Followers of the Spaghetti Monster. It matters not to me.

  28. Florence nee Fedup

    Maybe time for concerned parents to start sending kids back to church., Yes, and consider accompany them. Schools are not the place, that religious beliefs should be taught. Time fir the church to begin earning what the tax payer subsidises them for. If not, give up their tax free status. It seems that over 80% care so little about religion, that they do not bother to attend church. Not even today for many, when married or buried.

  29. Florence nee Fedup

    There was a Pope a century or so ago, that condemned both capitalism and communism. Think he went by the name of Leo. Did not Christ throw the money lenders out of his church?

  30. LOVO

    Faith = Self fooling

  31. Kaye Lee

    “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”
    ― George Orwell

  32. Kaye Lee

    And even more appropriate for this government……

    “What you do in this world is a matter of no consequence. The question is what can you make people believe you have done.”
    ― Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet

  33. stephentardrew

    clarelhdm:

    I have no issue with tolerance however their are monsters in the room breathing down our necks that only science can solve. Global warming, resource distribution and depletion, species extinction, gross injustice and inequality, water rights, deregulation of unstable markets, food security, misappropriation of Darwin’s complex interface between inter species competitive survival and internal species-specific sustainable cooperation and communitarian mutual support meanwhile thousands of years of ideological nonsense has not led to any rational solutions to these problems. Repeating more of the same is just foolish. A few denominational goods followed by one hell of a load of dysfunction and dislocation threatening the biosphere and survival of our species is not the type of mathematics I would subscribe to.

    People need to wake up to just how serious these issues are and that science is the only viable and sustainable way to avoid catastrophe.

    Yes things are that bad.

    Fair weather ignorance today – turmoil and disaster tomorrow.

    This is not personal this is fact.

    We are drowning in ignorance and tolerance for magical and mythical ideological beliefs that are not going to save us.

    All they are doing is making things a damn sight worse.

  34. Arwen

    With the 2011 census showing only 60% of Australians identify as Christian, how would these proposed changes ensure an inclusive and participatory education for the 40% who are not? It is denialism of the highest order to promote Australian identity and values being only based on this narrow ideology. Australia has a long and deep culture from times before Christians, so where is this taught? We are also a multicultural nation these days. I am a teacher and I know that all major religions are taught currently in high school in a comparative manner. Students’ families can also allow their child to attend specialised Christian Religious Instruction lessons. Of course, many schools have Chaplains who also offer religious guidance. Currently, teachers are forbidden to discuss their own beliefs or to in any way denigrate those of their students. I am not sure what the 1500 submissions to this review see as being broken. This seems to be the most inclusive and equitable way to manage a school community with vastly different beliefs and experiences. The upside is that teachers have very strong unions who will oppose this and, as with other batty changes governments try to introduce, teachers are still very much in control of what and how they teach and will choose the best curriculum for their students. 🙂 btw all the other concerns raised in the review are pure dog whistling IMHO.

  35. Matters Not

    Arwen said:

    I am a teacher

    Really? But Pyne says teachers can’t spell, punctuate and use correct grammar. How is it you wrote so many sentences and still didn’t record any errors? There’s not even an apostrophe ‘out of place’.

    Perhaps Pyne is open to error?

  36. Arwen

    I know, Matters not, I must be one of the few! How do you think it makes me feel as a professional to have my competency trashed by every politician in the country? 😡

  37. Marilyn

    Someone needs to tell Prissy that the Christians hated the jews in their crusades just as much as they hated muslims.

    And for heaven’s sake, someone send him a book called the Invention of the Jews by Shlomo Sand.

  38. Kaye Lee

    I agree that teacher quality is an important thing. I have taught with some amazing people who could no doubt have been earning a lot more in private enterprise but good teachers have a passion.

    A few suggestions…

    There needs to be more screening and counselling about suitability in the first place. Those who see the kids as the enemy should be weeded out. Anyone with a thin skin should leave before they suffer emotional damage. Those who think there are set hours and holidays will be sadly disappointed and if you think you get paid overtime when you volunteer to go away on excursions then think again. If you think you can just set aside unmarked exam papers because the clock hits a certain number then do a job that has a bundy clock.

    Teacher mentoring would be a huge help. Training does not prepare you for a class gone feral or when your mind goes blank as can happen under pressure. Over the years teachers learn tricks, they accumulate resources, they have interesting fill-ins for when lesson timing has gone awry. Having an experienced teacher in a mentoring role for novices, sometimes in the classroom, sometimes to deal with/advise on discipline issues, to help in accumulation of resources and learning about hierarchy of support, would be invaluable.

    We also need to attract and reward those that have an obvious knack with getting kids interested. That may not be the person with the highest ATAR and their ability may not be measurable in student exam results alone. Teaching is so much more than scores on tests.

    As in any job, morale is important. teachers need to be supported because it is a hard job. Telling them they are dumbasses who don’t need any more resources – they just need remedial work on themselves and to get back to drilling the kids in rote learning and that the market will sort it all out – isn’t going to do a great deal for the morale of Team Education.

  39. Matters Not

    Yes Arwen I know. But teachers are to blame because half the class is always below the ‘average’.

    You be aware also that it’s teacher ‘quality’ that lies at the heart of the problem of unequal outcomes and nothing to do with ‘socio-economic’ background from which they come. You would also be aware that these unequal outcomes have nothing to do with access to resources.

    No, it’s all about teacher ‘quality’. We know because Pyne and Donnelly tell us so, despite all the studies since the Coleman Report of 1966 that tell us to the contrary.

  40. Kaye Lee

    The thing that amuses me is that the person that Pyne has appointed to review teacher training is Australian Catholic University vice-chancellor Greg Craven.

    While state and territory education ministers have been discussing plans to raise the required ATAR for teaching degrees to 70, Professor Craven has been a vocal opponent of minimum entry scores. Pyne has backed Craven, describing ATAR scores as “a blunt instrument”.

    Craven’s university enrols students in teaching courses with ATAR scores as low as 50, some of the lowest in the country. This has earned the ire of AEU president Angelo Gavrielatos, who described Craven as “part of the problem, not the solution”. An AEU statement lambasted the review as “fatally flawed”, claiming that:

    “Minister Pyne says his agenda is teacher quality, but in fact he is undermining standards. He wants to make it easier, not harder to get into teaching degrees.”

    William Arthur Ward once said:

    The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires.

    To ensure Australian students encounter high-quality, passionate teachers, education must be seen not as a profession but a vocation. The best teachers do more than prepare students for tests. They inspire them to grow, encourage them to explore and ignite a passion for learning.

    The goal of the review board should be to attract the best and brightest into education and to secure the best possible outcome for Australian students. This can only happen if the prestige and respect once associated with teaching is restored along with the resources and support needed to achieve outstanding results.

    http://theconversation.com/pynes-review-panel-will-it-help-improve-teacher-quality-23466

  41. Julian Stevenson

    Pyne is such a complete idiot. You would think that all governments would do their best to ensure that ministers are first for the portfolio but not this one. To them education clearly isn’t a priority. Judeo-Christian indeed; it’s just a simple way of saying WHITE.

  42. Matters Not

    Kaye Lee from your link.

    Studies suggest between 25% and 40% of teachers leave within five years.

    That’s my personal experience as well. While there are any number of reasons for this, including pay, conditions and the like, many leave because they simply ‘can’t do the job’. A teacher, alone in a classroom, has nowhere to hide as it were. Many ‘self-select’ to separate. That applies to student teachers as well.

  43. Julian Stevenson

    *fit*

  44. Terry2

    Pyne seems to be making a point about teachers being unable to teach grammar or punctuation because they were never taught it themselves.

    Where on earth does this come from, have Wiltshire and Donnelly really had the time to make this sort of sweeping generalisation?

    As always with this government there is a concealed agenda.

  45. Trevor Vivian

    Another to the point article. Thanks Kaye Lee. Vomitious Pyne as part of the Abbott rabble of Liarbral’s masquerading as MP’s in a government led ably by Australia’s leading domestic political preacher of hate and the countries number1 Liar, Abbott the C **t, show how the government’s politics of division, deciet, deception, discrimination and destruction create more distrust than trust. One may even deduce that the Abbott rabble do not understand the basics of leading, facilitating and ergo governing. The daily fare of Pyne, hockey, Abbott, Andrews, asbestos bishop, Keenan and the rest of team Liarbral lying, blaming, etc as they dismantle the heart of Ozland for the vultures of corporate capital to take ownership of community assets for profits for the few, extend incredulity and force suspension of disbelief. The idea of organising a question time public gallery daily standing and showing backs in a silent, dignified disobedience could be done. The idea of using the Popeman is worth doing. Any way short of violence should be part of the arsenal of a public defiance of DamLord Suppository and his Liabrals. Sack Abbott.

  46. John Lord

    You are the best researched writer on this blog.

  47. bobrafto

    As always, Kaye, another great article.

    Perhaps you may want to explore the other facet of the recent 800 strong police force acting presumably under instructions from ASIO to bust terrorists.

    One can only assume ASIO is a bunch of incompetents that the information they relied on to mobilize 800 police was for basically zero results.

    Or ASIO was doing Abbott’s bidding to whip up fear (on the promise for an extra $600M funding).

    It’s either or, and if it’s the former, there goes my faith in those spooks.

    Cheers

  48. donwreford

    Although Christianity, and Islamic, teachings seem to be be apart, their is a similarity that makes them more connected than not, after all Jesus, is part of the Islamic, faith as a recognized prophet.

  49. Kaye Lee

    bob,

    Can I suggest that they were trying to “send a message” and that it was huge overreach.

    As Richard Ackland pointed out last week, it would certainly seem possible that Azari (the one who got the phone call and only one charged with terrorist activity) could have alternatively been charged with conspiracy or solicit to murder, under section 26 of the Crimes Act. It would certainly be unusual to have an 800 strong raid for one murder charge, so why is it any different for a terrorism charge?

    This article is interesting.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/22/counter-terrorism-raids-leave-some-serious-questions-unanswered

    The fact that outgoing ASIO chief David Irvine was giving the exact same interviews in 2012 makes me somewhat cynical. This is from 2012 when he was asking for increases surveillance laws.

    “We continue to see Australians gaining exposure to extremist interpretations of Islam both here and abroad, in person and via the internet. Exposure can lead, sometimes very quickly, to actions by extremists aiming to recruit individuals to adopt distorted views and act on them – as happened with the so-called Detroit underpants bomber.

    We also continue to see a small but steady number of Australians seeking to travel overseas for terrorist training or to participate in armed conflict. Although the weakening of the al-Qa’ida core has altered the destinations of choice – Somalia and Yemen have now become as attractive as Afghanistan and Pakistan – ASIO’s concerns about this activity remains the same.”

    http://www.asio.gov.au/Publications/Speeches-and-Statements/Speeches-and-Statements/4-September-2012-SIG2012.html

    He mightn’t have his finger on the pulse as to where the hotspots actually are or who the real threat is coming from, but sure as heck he needs more money, tougher laws, and less oversight.

  50. stephentardrew

    John:

    Great article John. As you know by now I don’t want to take away peoples beliefs because psych evidence demonstrates the necessity for a sense of metaphysical purpose. For starters atheism is just another dogma that we need not embrace simply because we are so primitive and do not really understand the complex dynamics of the universe and how its laws and constants mesh together with subjectivity, objectivity, logic, rationality, incompleteness, uncertainty, counterintuitives, paradox, magic and mythology. All I wish is that people will take science seriously because it is the only paradigm that can resolve many of the practical dilemmas which we face including the demand for reciprocity, compassion, empathy and altruism. Cause and effect can solve a lot of problems imposed by judgment, blame and retribution driven by unreasonable claims to free will when all we have is nominal choice. Why do I keep on prattling on? Because we need diversity not a mono-culture of beliefs however in this epoch diversity should be founded upon the facts of science before the construction of metaphysical beliefs. There is a substantial body of evidence that we know only a fraction of what is possible. I would much rather promote creative critical and lateral thinking, which does not discriminate, rather than overly vilify peoples belief systems. Evolution does what it does and we cannot, as yet, tell why human belief systems are such a mish mash of magic, mythology reason and logic. These are deep questions we need to apply ourselves too without abusing or humiliating others.

    It is difficult treading the tight rope between scientific literacy and the right of individuals to have a diverse number of belief systems. Sure logic and rationality will gradually challenge the irrationality of ideological dogma however it needs to be done with thought and sensitivity. Unfortunately the most democratic, thoughtful and equitable approach to knowledge and truth is often difficult and convoluted however for those of us who want more caring and loving world it is a journey we will have to take.

  51. stephentardrew

    Kaye we already had sufficiently robust laws. This obsession with terrorism is undoubtedly a strategy of fear and intimidation meant to frighten the populace into accepting invasive security laws. I had read these article before and they are very informative. Fear is the weapon of those who cannot present reasonable facts and arguments to support their tightening of power and control. Any government, present or future, could easily turn these laws against the general populace. That is why there are supposed to be checks and balances against reduction in peoples rights and freedoms. All this done in the name of democracy without explicitly expressing the foundational principles of democracy which actually conflict with their obsessive demand for power and control.

  52. mars08

    Kaye Lee:

    critics have warned the report may reignite a “culture war”.

    It recommends ramping up the focus on Western civilisation and Australia’s Judeo-Christian heritage and scaling back emphasis on indigenous history and Asia.

    Why this need to downplay other (applicable) cultures, while reinforcing an “approved” version of our own history and culture?

    Given Austalia’s past, I’ve long suspected that there’s something like psychological projection at play. Or maybe something totally unlike psychological projection. Yes there’s fear, but still something else…

    About 220 years ago the dominant culture watched on, as some strange people came and settled, had families… and ended up taking control of the joint.

    Do you think perhaps… maybe… there are those in the current dominant culture who are projecting our shabby treatment of the original Australians onto “other” people settling here, and neighbouring cultures?

  53. MissPamela

    Pyne got what he wanted and in publicising it managed to indulge in a bit of teacher bashing. Great article Kaye Lee and a good précis of how to encourage and support the development and maintainance of quality teachers in the comments. It is patently obvious no validated or rigorous research was conducted – I doubt it was even attempted. If it were – where is the data supporting the recommendations? Conspicuous by its absence.

  54. Bilal

    Smells like an underhand way of aryanizing the curriculum with the Judeo as a cover for evil intent. Abbott’s great mentor was B. A. Santamaria, whose ideology was described by Catholic commentator Paul Collins as embracing a form of theological integralism which sees everything in the world as tainted unless it is ‘integrated’ or brought into the orbit of Catholicism. Integralism assumes that the Church has an unchallengeable, complete and accessible body of doctrine that gives guidance in every possible eventuality — social, political, strategic, economic, familial and personal.”

    Indeed Collins adds: “Integralism has much in common with Italian Fascism, Franco’s Spain or Salazar’s Portugal. It is also at odds with the Vatican II Declaration on Religious Freedom

    Not much Judeo there!

  55. Florence nee Fedup

    Dpes one tell other experts how to do their job. Do you go to the doctor, tell him how you want to be treated. Do you suggest to the electrician that you believe his way of wiring is wrong.

    Seems when it comes to education, those who have spent years studying the craft are incapable of teaching children. It appears, a politician knows more in this regard.

  56. Matters Not

    Education, broadly defined to include what is to be ‘taught’, the ‘when’, the ‘how’ and the ‘why’ was (and is, and will continue to be) always a fundamentally political project, broadly defined. It can never be otherwise.

    The decision to expose the young to certain ‘views’, whether they be ‘truths’ in the forms of mathematics or logic, or ‘probabilities’ (degrees of confidence) in the ‘hard’ sciences such as physics, chemistry, and climate science, or the ‘soft’ sciences of ‘history’, ‘sociology’ and the like has always been controversial.

    In short, the ‘curriculum’ will always be the result of a power play. A contest of ‘ideas’, advanced ideally by the best ‘minds’ being applied to the task.

    Having said that, it’s absolutely appalling that perhaps the worst minds on display in Australia are now intent on exercising their political power. People such as Pyne, Donnelly and the like are intellectual cretins.

    But I remain confident that their recommendations will be in vain.

  57. Kaye Lee

    I heard a whisper that they have something to say about maths. I await with baited breath what THAT might be.

  58. Matters Not

    Kaye Lee, you may be interested to know that teachers of maths are at the top of teacher ‘separations’.

    While there’s no doubt that expertise in maths has great value in the wider world, and is rewarded accordingly, it would seem that, generally speaking, expertise in maths does not equate to an ability to communicate verbally, which is an important part of being a ‘good’ teacher.

    Teachers of maths are great in the ‘symbolic’ world but that doesn’t necessarily translate to the verbal world.

    In many ways, it follows you are an exception. (Not that I’m into generalisations.) LOL.

  59. Kaye Lee

    Thanks for the link Miss Pamela.

    Nothing earth shattering in their maths section but their religion section gets scary.

    “In relation to how the Australian Curriculum deals with religion, especially Australia’s Judeo-Christian heritage, it is interesting to note that ACARA publicly released a revised version of the civics and citizenship Foundation to Year 10 document, dated 18 February 2014, that refers to Judeo-Christian traditions a number of times”

    They say “Judeo Christian” about twenty million times. So did every submission they received apparently.

    Matters Not,

    I always told the kids if they didn’t understand that they must let me know because it was my explanation that was at fault – “I got other ways” 🙂

  60. Anne Byam

    @ Kaye ……

    will stick to one point only ….. that of the concept of being Judeo-Christian. It is in fact a study. There is no specific ‘Judeo-Christian’ church to attend – that I know of. ….. not here in Victoria anyway. ….. It is however, a system of belief. I am not sure where you got your references from, but some of them are ‘tainted’ …. particularly against the ‘Judeo’ part of it, and as a whole – the concept of believing in something that is mightier than oneself. Some see that ‘might’
    as science, others see it as pure Catholicism, others Jewish history, others Buddhism, and others the concept of Islam et al.

    As for what Christopher Pyne might mean, I have to say I would believe NOTHING that spews from his mouth. He is however, Catholic – and most likely was taught from both books of the Bible – the Old Testament ( Jewish ) and the New Testament ( the origins of Christianity ). A Judeo-Christian believer and there are many …. is deeply aware that the roots of Christianity lies right smack bang in the middle of the Jewish religion. They are as intertwined as anything could possibly be. The Ten Commandments that Christians recite and are taught to remember – come from the first of the 600+ commandments that rule the Jewish way of thinking.

    But they are the same ‘ top 10 ‘.

    Jesus taught the Jewish religion to his followers – the gentiles ( non-believers in anything much – pagans ) and Jews who were interested in a more radical yet perhaps gentler approach to life ( my words there ). Jesus himself was an Essene Jew. ( although which Jewish tribe he belonged to is still being debated to this day ). But he was Jewish. I cannot abandon that, nor banish it, nor will I. It is an indisputable fact – not at all because I express it, but because scholars of every religion would acknowledge it – and do.

    The Americans leapt upon and coined the phrase “Judeo Christian” ………. made it their own ( as they do with just about everything ). ….It is however, recognised the world over. Yet it has no church to worship in ( if worshipping is one’s ‘thing’ ). It is a concept to believe in …. or to not believe in ……. an individual choice.

    It became a ‘popular’ and re-constituted concept in the late 1900’s …. was mentioned prior to that many times by writers and scholars.

    It has been used cynically, in a political sense, and for political kudos. …… Which is frankly what I think Pyne was doing. Wafting around a couple of interesting words which many would not have come across before, for a bit of grandstanding and power projection – it added something to his ‘main’ punch.

    =======

    .

  61. Anne Byam

    @ Doc ………. ref. your comment 12th Oct, 12.23 pm …..

    Agree with all you noted …… particularly the first paragraph. So true.

    The 2nd para. was spot on as well.

  62. Anne Byam

    @ Marilyn … ref. your comment 12th Oct – 3.24 pm …..

    Yes, the Crusaders – sent out by the Vatican itself I believe ….. with crosses emblazoned on their tunics – sought out and killed as many Jews and Muslims as possible. It was, what we might call today, an attempt at ‘ethnic cleansing’.

    They delighted in ‘ being up to their knees in blood’ ………a real nice lot of mongrels, them !! …. But that goes back centuries …. and was not a surprise considering the times …….. of barbaric ritual and endless wars. It was a disgusting time in history. There have been many ‘disgusting’ times in history in fact – and not all religious. Many, purely political.

    As for the book you recommended. It seems to be contentious to the enth degree. I have only read the critiques and would not care to comment on those. …… I doubt that I would want to read the book itself.

    Jews are a religious people. They are scattered far and wide. If, however, one likes to look at every other religion – take Catholics for example, could it be said their spiritual home is the country called the Vatican ? ( yes it IS in fact a country – the smallest in the world ).

    Mecca for Muslims is their spiritual absolute. Yet not every Muslim could possibly fit into Mecca, in Saudi Arabia to live there.

    In fact every religion is actually scattered, within countries that we call home – Britain, Australia, New Zealand etc.

    There is also a group of people who are Israelis. Their home is Israel. Israel happens to be inhabited mainly by Jews, but there are many who live there from other countries and religions as well. Not every Israeli is Jewish, and not every Jew is an Israeli.

    The scattered Jews ….. who have never really HAD a home, & tend to call Israel their spiritual abode. They like to look upon it as their home country …. but I believe they know it is in fact not quite that – not yet. If one is to believe the Scriptures, they await the re-building of the Temple …. a deeply rooted part of their spiritual beliefs.

  63. Dame Lacey Bra

    I don’t really believe that these people believe in God or religion, if they did they would behave more “Christian” like. I think they use religion to hide behind. Suerly if they actually believe this outdated crap they would be terrified of spending an eternity in the fiery depths of the Christian hell?

  64. Liam

    How did two men finish a report into the National Curriculum in a few months?
    The authors hired people with agendas which agreed with their own to write “papers” for the report.
    They then selectively paraphrased sections of these papers and of received submissions which agreed with their agenda, added some educational jargon, and hit ‘print’.

  65. Daniel

    Not sure where this article got its facts, but the report has been online since Friday on education.gov.au. The headlines don’t really accurately capture it, although they accurately capture one part of it. Most of it isn’t even contentious and simply points to failures in ACARA. The bits which are looney right actually stand out like a sore thumb.

  66. Kaye Lee

    Stewart Riddle, Lecturer in Literacies Education, University of Southern Queensland

    “This is a review where the outcome was pre-determined by the minister’s choice of reviewers and a long-running media campaign of promoting a “back to the basics” approach.

    Yet, reading through this “balanced” and “fair” review, the first thing that struck me was the staggering lack of engagement with empirical research. Apart from government reports and curriculum documents, there are only a handful of references to research literature. Given the scope and scale of this review, such a limited engagement with evidence is troubling.

    It seems that the whole curriculum review, from its announcement through to release, has been little more than a political distraction from addressing serious concerns about equity in our schools. For example, the review highlights the importance of addressing educational needs for students with a disability, while the government is cutting $100 million from disability programs”

  67. Kaye Makovec

    “Firstly, how did the Telegraph get hold of a report that has not yet been released”

    Americans call that a pleak 🙂

    “So what do Donnelly and Pyne mean by our Judeo-Christian heritage?

    To find another way to make people hate Muslims and this I think – I was taught at Catholic school that Christians have a link to Jews because Jesus was Hebrew but broke away because the Jews became too involved with money (they come to Jerusalem and Jesus went into the temple and cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers).

    In other words ‘we’ are descended from the Jews and follow the same God.

    The fact that Islam also follows the same God and also recognises Jesus is overlooked, plus the fact that Jews don’t consider Jesus to be the messiah. Here are two guides for an explanation that shouldn’t offend anybody 🙂

    http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10.htm

    and

    http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Jewish-View-Of-Jesus.htm

    Back to Education.

    This mob don’t even know there is a difference between ‘phonics’ and ‘sounding out’.

    Phonics teaches kids to read by correlating sounds with symbols like ae and spelling as a word sounds, like foniks and was tried in Victorian schools in the 1970s and that is why we still have middle aged people (and teachers) who can’t spell.

    Sounding out is the proper way to learn how to pronounce a word by using the correct spelling but breaking it up into syllables, as in ‘dis es tab lish men taria nism’ 🙂 and is what is already being taught in Victorian schools.

    Just how bloody stupid are they?

    Just once I would like to see them do some PROPER RESEARCH before making decisions!

  68. guest

    Here we go again. Back to the future: The Cultural Wars revived. We had years of Donnelly and Wiltshire writing in the Murdoch press. Same old same old: Judaeo-Christian tradition, Western Canon, traditional grammar, direct instruction, testing, testing, testing…
    Donnelly recommended a “road map” curriculum which told teachers what to teach and how to teach it. When Howard began a National Curriculum, Donnelly attacked various parts of the curriculum which had been developing since the 1960s. When Gillard completed the National Curriculum, the Donnelly complaint was that it was a centralist government curriculum;what was needed was school based curriculum. So what do we get from Donnelly and Wiltshire? A centralist government National Curriculum – so typical of a government which claims to be small, yet interferes in every aspect of the lives of Oz citizens with top down regulations and commands.
    Contrast the Coalition education ideology with the Finnish system.
    And while we are mentioning the Western Tradition, remember how much of that was preserved through the Dark Ages by Arab scholars – rather ironical. Perhaps the Coalition will eventually rediscover science, which has been lost from its canon in recent years.

  69. Omar

    I would like to ask the Government, where the over half a million strong Australian Muslims fit in the so called “Judaeo-Christian heritage”??? it seems to me this government is trying to split the Australian community, create problems and bring overseas troubles into Australia.

  70. Kaye Makovec

    PS. Speaking of rewriting history.

    “In 1965, as part of the Vatican II council, the Catholic Church published a long-anticipated declaration entitled Nostra Aetate, offering a new approach to the question of Jewish responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus.

    The document argued that modern-day Jews could not be held accountable for Jesus’ crucifixion and that not all Jews alive at the time of the crucifixion were guilty of the crime. This was a remarkable step forward in the history of Christian attitudes toward Jews.

    Indeed, according to most historians, it would be more logical to blame the Romans for Jesus’ death. Crucifixion was a customary punishment among Romans, not Jews. At the time of Jesus’ death, the Romans were imposing a harsh and brutal occupation on the Land of Israel, and the Jews were occasionally unruly. ”

    Now why can’t the same be applied to all Muslims not being responsible for what some do?

  71. Kaye Makovec

    Yes Omar but the question is Why?
    I honestly have no idea.

  72. mars08

    A few weeks ago we got Team Australia, now we have the elevation of “Judaeo-Christian heritage”

    Seems that the definition of what it means to be a TRUE straaayn is becoming very very narrow!!

  73. stephentardrew

    Mars8: Try a straitjacket.

  74. mars08

    stephentardrew:

    Mars8: Try a straitjacket.

    I have… but the under-arm chafing is unpleasant… and I can never find shoes to match…

  75. Kaye Lee

    Actually I can tell you who is on Team Australia.

    Tony Abbott paid a visit to China last April, accompanied by a record number of over 700 businessmen who together represented over half the value of the Australian stock exchange. Few realise that this was the first ‘outing’ of the REAL ‘Team Australia”.

    “Five state premiers, along with 700 business leaders, including three billionaires are with the prime minister. The government has dubbed it “team Australia“.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-11/tony-abbott-arrives-in-shanghai-for-talks-with-chinese-president/5382584

    James Packer, Kerry Stokes and Andrew Forrest tour Asia with Tony Abbott

    Foreign minister Julie Bishop will also attend while Mr Abbott has given his parliamentary secretary Josh Frydenberg the task of shepherding the travelling party of 20 CEOs, including Westpac boss Gail Kelly, Commonwealth Bank boss Ian Narev, ANZ’s Mike Smith, Orica’s Ian Smith and the Business Council of Australia’s Jennifer Westacott.

    http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/james-packer-kerry-stokes-and-andrew-forrest-tour-asia-with-tony-abbott/story-fnda1bsz-1226871241366

  76. stephentardrew

    Yes Kaye remember when he couldn’t find his women.

    How utterly embarrassing.

    Our Dear Leader nong just continues along with his giant LNP pong.

    I wonder if we could do a Kim Jong Un on him.

    Now where did I put that moron?

  77. SamBest

    “what some see as the inherently violent nature of the Koran,” Crikey, have they read the Bible?

  78. Kaye Lee

    Exactly Sam. Psalm 137 ends with this delightful little exhortation

    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks

  79. stephentardrew

    Thanks once again Kay – Comedy Central. I forgot how funny the whole circus was.

  80. Hater

    Kaye Lee – more Christian bashing? Perhaps you should read theological commentary on what Psalm 137 actually means. It was God’s judgement, there was no encouragement for humans to kill Babylonians. Also, the hatred towards Babylonians was based on their occultism.

    Regarding the review – I am unsure if you are all aware but Australia’s institutions are inherently tied to Judeo-Christian values. These are tried and tested institutions developed over hundreds of years. Now it is all being thrown away by a bunch of cultural Marxists literally seeking to rewrite Australia’s modern history. Not the other way around.

  81. Kaye Lee

    If you type the term Judeo-Christian into the Australian parliamentary library website the first mention is in 1974. Throughout the 1970s, 80s and 90s it is used in only a handful of contexts without any apparent consistency in its meaning. In fact, the vast majority of the 855 results the search generates are dated from late 2001 onwards.

  82. corvus boreus

    To be more strictly accurate(and inclusive of Islam), I think the term “Judeo-Christian” should be replaced with “paterno-monotheistic”.
    It probably sounds better than my own term of ‘dick-god worshipping’.

  83. Florence nee Fedup

    There is extensive research into education, that took I believe 4 or 5 years to compile. It is called the Gonski report.

  84. Kirsty

    The Coalition are destroying this country piece by piece. They don’t care about anybody or anything except their irresponsible regressive policies. I can’t believe such a small group of cruel ignorant people can cause so much destruction to our communities, culture and economy.
    If 25% of our population is Catholic why is 47% of the Coalition is Catholic and only 5% female? Also while only 35% of Australians go to private schools while nearly 80% of the Cabinet went to privileged private schools. Why does the elected government reflect our population so poorly?
    Where are the indigenous Australians, the women, the public school leavers, scientists and Atheists?

  85. Matters Not

    Florence nee Fedup, Gonski was about Funding for Schooling. If one wanted and Inquiry into Education then Gonski wouldn’t have been chosen to Chair it. A point he makes himself on each and every occasion he is asked to make an address on the Report.

    http://www.appa.asn.au/content/gonski-report/final-terms-of-reference.pdf

  86. corvus boreus

    Hater(nice moniker),
    If I get you right (as the knowing interpreter of your gods judgement), the Babylonians were divinely hated for ‘occultism’, but there was no encouragement for humans to kill them, just a clinical observation that bashing Babylonian babies brains in would make the perpetrator feel very happy.
    Or do I also need to consult the works of some religious apologist to help rationalise and justify this and other acts of infanticide and genocide condoned and encouraged in the bible?

  87. Anne Byam

    @ Kaye Makovec … ( October 13, 2014 at 10:38 am comment ) ….

    You are absolutely right – in everything you said there. Crucifixion was a very common ( barbaric & brutal – which was of the times ) …. practice of punishment by the Romans.

    I have read that they lined up the crosses ( or trees ) on which hung criminals, along the roads leading into Roman cities – as a warning to all who entered the city – to behave themselves precisely – else they’d end up the same way —- crucified.

    Your query re Muslims – is pertinent. One bad apple, does not mean all apples in the crate are bad. Very sadly, many Muslims are being targetted as ALL bad apples.

    And that absolutely, is not so.

  88. Anne Byam

    @ SamBest ….. how right you are. The Bible is full of violence and hatred of race against race. Not pleasant reading in many parts.

  89. clarelhdm

    There is a quote from Jesus (loosely remembered ) ‘I do not come with peace, but with a sword. Brother shall turn against brother….” Seems to be forgotten by the current lot demonising Islam

  90. Kaye Lee

    Matthew 10

    34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

    “ ‘a man against his father,

    a daughter against her mother,

    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

    36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

    37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

  91. clarelhdm

    yep. Fairly jihadist, that passage

  92. stephentardrew

    Well that shines some blinding light on the subject.

    Kaye where the hell do you get this stuff from?

    Are you obsessed with the Bible.

    Just jokin excellent research skills.

    Ah the cutting knife of intellectual acumen versus Tony’s God told me so, so nahnee, nah, nah there gotcha that time.

  93. stephentardrew

    God just re-read and found out I am worthless.
    Will go and bash my head against the wall as penance.

  94. Kaye Lee

    Stephen, I’ll have you know that I came dux of my bible studies class and was given a “Bible Reader’s concordance” as my prize. It was an interesting resource which has since been superceded by google 🙂

  95. aravis1

    More a prophecy, and a warning that His message would stir up the evil in man. All good people through history, who have also stood against evil, have been hated and often killed. And as an aside to that, I don’t see any of the present sorry crew in Canberra getting killed…

  96. aravis1

    Kaye Lee, I got one of those as a prize too! And I agree, Google is far easier and quicker! LOL

  97. clarelhdm

    well, it’s all in the interpretation…I am sure many parts of the Koran could be interpreted in the same way. Jesus also said ‘he who is not with me is against me’ ….and the ‘sword’ reference is certainly much more active and combative.

  98. Kaye Lee

    Matthew 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

  99. Anne Byam

    Kaye and Stephen ….. that passage ( Matthew 10:34 > ) is indeed a warning. I cannot recall EVER hearing it referred to in a Church sermon ( and I did listen – when I was a devoted attendee at any church I belonged to – quite a few ).

    Still and all, that doesn’t mean it was never referred to somewhere or other.

    What it does say to me, is Jesus more or less admitting he was not the Messiah. The Jewish Messiah is to bring total peace to the world – not only to Jews, but to ALL mankind. …….. Not a sword to divide. ….. I doubt … as the Messiah, he could have uttered those words …. then again – that’s what bible study and debate is all about …. was it ? or was it not. ? …. the eternal questions that emanate from the Bible.

    I have reason to believe the ‘sword to divide’ does not enter into any messianic message or prophecy…. I stand to be corrected however.

    Judaism is a very complicated study. Have only barely scratched the surface of it. But it is truly fascinating.

  100. stephentardrew

    Too irrational and convoluted or my liking Anne.

  101. Anne Byam

    stephen ? Sad that you saw it that way. Irrational and convoluted that is. !!

    You are humanist and scientific in your concerns, studies and endeavours ( from what I have read ) …. and that’s fair enough. It’s your right … and good onya for it.

    To each his / her own.

    I don’t follow any type of formalised religion, but I do study. A lot – on many subjects.

    I don’t think my comments were irrational at all, ….. but maybe a bit complex and difficult to follow ( or convoluted ). I have seen those types of comments many times on here …. could call some ‘much ado about nothing’, in fact.

    We all have our off days — yes ? 😉

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