158 comments

1. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 10:07 am

   I read an article this morning about shoplifting is on the increase in the UK as starving people try to feed themselves. This lot are keen to take our society to the same place.

2. DanDarkDecember 22, 2014 at 10:14 am

   R.I.P Australians…….

3. Ricardo29December 22, 2014 at 10:28 am

   Why am I not laughing at what is obviously a parody?

4. Delia LordDecember 22, 2014 at 10:31 am

   Yes the 1850’s. Poor Houses, destitution, homelessness, more social unrest, suicides. But what the heck Joe says we should spend up BIG this Christmas.

5. diannaartDecember 22, 2014 at 10:47 am

   “Funny because it’s true” Homer Simpson

6. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 22, 2014 at 10:48 am

   “Illegal dole applicants”. Spot on sarcasm, Rossleigh. All Australians are ENTITLED to seek refuge from the government for unemployment benefits in times of their desperation of withering unemployment or under-employment.

   All Australians, who need welfare because of: disability – physical and mental, carer support for loved ones, single parents – largely women, seniors past the retirement age, etc, etc, likewise are ENTITLED to seek this welfare support from government.

   Morrisscum might think he’s off the hook now that he is not the Minister for Immigration and Border Control, but there is a chair waiting for him in the International Criminal Court for Crimes Against Humanity regarding his abuses of asylum seekers.

   You’re not off the hook, Morrisscum.

   I would like to call out for a lawyer alliance to begin forming specifically in preparation for counter-action against any regressive measures introduced by Morrisscum in his new portfolio.

   I want that lawyer alliance to be prepared to go all the way to the High Court, if necessary, if he manages to bludgeon the Senate or bypass it with the assistance of dirty budget changes.

7. silkwormDecember 22, 2014 at 10:57 am

   Toe-Knee Ab-butt is just shifting the evil around. This evil lot must be stopped somehow.

8. stephentardrewDecember 22, 2014 at 10:59 am

   I am not giving in to these bastards let’s keep on fighting with a positive outlook. Rosseleigh is pointing out the inability to deal rationally with irrationality and that is a real problem. Dogmatism and continual deflection will only save you for a while until the truth comes home to roost.

   This could well play into the hands of progressives because the tactics used in immigration, based upon ignorance of the population, will not work as well when it involves family, friends and neighbors.

   I have a feeling putting Morrison in Social Services is about to backfire dramatically. Look at the polls. Accountability and fairness must work together however brute demagoguery will inevitably fail.

   The dried on conservatives will not shift however cruelty and injustice will move the swing voter when lies and misinformation are disclosed for what they are.

   Point is we do not have to argue too much about the lies because they are so blatantly obvious.

9. diannaartDecember 22, 2014 at 11:09 am

   I have a feeling putting Morrison in Social Services is about to backfire dramatically

   Gawd I do hope so and I would be firmly strapped in were I not ducking and covering…

   Shit-storm ahead!

10. lawrencewinderWinderDecember 22, 2014 at 11:11 am

    Is “The Drone” Morrison, a member of “The_Coots-With-Queer-Ideas-From-a-Parallel-Universe” (aka IPA) ? If not, we should send him an application form.

11. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 22, 2014 at 11:14 am

    @stephentardrew I agree. Putting Morrisscum in Social Services was a bad move because the vulnerable are not voiceless asylum seekers now, they are Australians who vote, and who are other people’s families and friends.

    It’s personal even to conservative voters, if their child or older relative can’t gain meaningful employment.

    Abbott has tied Morrisscum’s hands. The questions are: was it Abbott’s stupid mistake for under-estimating the voting public? OR, did he do it to frustrate Morrisscum’s growing leadership ambition?

    Poisonous, Machiavellian behaviour. Who needs enemies, when one has friends like these scum!

12. LindaDecember 22, 2014 at 11:16 am

    Be afraid, very afraid, I can’t even imagine what this creature will try to do with this department, he is the most dangerous evil creature……god help anyone on any benefit. I sincerely hope that everyone will remember all this at the next election.

13. mars08December 22, 2014 at 11:17 am

    STEP ONE: Demonise your taget. Portray them as an existential threat to our magnificent way of life…

14. stephentardrewDecember 22, 2014 at 11:32 am

    I think people are starting to realize that we have a revenue problem which the LNP are demanding the poor and marginalized fix.

    Australians are getting pissed off that the top 10% are getting off scot free.

    By lying they miscalculated, by a mile, and are now caught in the pincer of their own making.

    It’s actually quite funny they cannot go forwards or backwards because the brakes are locked and, in some sense, they are going in reverse.

    Things can only get worse for them because they just cannot imagine hitting their rich mates.

    The beauty about ideologues is that they are rigid, inflexible, magical mythical thinkers who have little contact with empirical facts.

    A recipe for disaster which, unfortunately, could take many of us with them if we can’t hold back the tide.

15. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 11:37 am

    I hope he puts a broom through the DSP and initiates a per household welfare cap at somewhere about the minimum wage.

    And an income cut off for welfare of any kind at a household income of double the minimum wage while he’s at it.

16. Graham HoughtonDecember 22, 2014 at 11:41 am

    In the spirit of Christmas let’s give these turkeys, this scum, these unemployable dregs of society what they each deserve – please sign the petition to fill their stockings with season’s greetings. https://www.communityrun.org/petitions/stop-this-government-s-madness

17. mars08December 22, 2014 at 11:42 am

    Did you hear Bill Shorten say that Morrison won’t be permitted to use his trademark cruel, inhumane, destructive tactics against vulnerable, isolated Australian citizens?

    Ah-huh…. No, neither did I….

18. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 11:47 am

    <

    Overheard on ABC radio a listener phoning in and asking why …… if a University degree will cost $100,000 …. Grocon, the builders of the

    wall that collapsed in Melbourne, killing 3 University students was fined $250,000.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-21/grocon-fined-250000-over-fatal-wall-collapse/5908292

    While the CFMEU was fined $1.25 million ( +costs) for protesting against Grocon.

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/cfmeu-fined-125m-over-grocon-emporium-stoppages-20140330-35spk.html

    At the time Senator Eric Abetz said;

    "‘‘Today’s decision sends a clear message that the sort of behaviour engaged in by the CFMEU is unacceptable,’’.

    Apparently killing 3 passerbies rates less on the Abbott/Liberal party scale of wrongdoing.

19. Michael TaylorDecember 22, 2014 at 11:52 am

    RC, I think you’ve been watching too many episodes of Today Tonight et al.

    There are not as many ‘bludgers’ on DSP as the media and those gutter shows would have us believe.

    Having spent many years working on DSP policy, social security legislation, and social security litigation I’d place myself in a far better position to make judgement than you.

20. Kaye LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 11:52 am

    rc,

    I spent this morning (and Friday) at Centrelink and I would like your opinion about my experience.

    My son was in full-time employment. He travelled for over 4 hours every day to get there and back. In October he was admitted into hospital and is still there. He was employed by a recruitment agency and contracted out to a government department (read no sick leave or annual leave) so he has no job to go back to. He has no assets and he has never claimed anything from the government.

    We have no idea how long he will be out of action so the hospital social worker suggested he apply for Centrelink. I have tried to do this on his behalf and I am ready to stab people in the eye with something sharp.

    After collecting all paperwork (including ridiculous things like a separation certificate from the agency who found him the job) I finally got him onto the system only to be told that because he was saving up to buy a car he is ineligible for three months. I was then told the medical certificate the hospital issued was invalid because it was for more than three months and their system will not accept that so my son, who is in hospital, has an appointment on Christmas Eve at a Jobsearch agency that Centrelink allocated.

    His condition is not “stable and likely to remain that way for two years” so he does not qualify for DSP. He does not have a job to go back to so he does not qualify for sickness benefits. And because he didn’t piss his money up against a wall he is not entitled to Newstart for three months.

    And they want to make the conditions tougher?

21. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 11:54 am

    They make it so difficult that people will give up, and then the unemployment figures will go down.

22. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 12:04 pm

    MT, there probably isn’t too many, but 800,000 people on DSP is a clear sign that it is over-reaching rather than getting the maximum benefit to the actual people who need it. As in all spending programs, the more people it applies to, the less each of them get.

    Would it not be better to shift DSP payments for the actual disabled over to the NDIS? Could be quite the “efficiency dividend”.

    I am all in favour of capping direct payments as long as any saving (which I am sure there would be) goes to funding things like building homes for the homeless, mental health services, proper indexing of pensions for veterans, an open ended funding mechanism for children in need of rare or expensive medicines and treatments. All the stuff that is being under-funded because the direct welfare payment program long ago stopped being just a safety net and morphed into an enormously expensive (and unsustainable) vote buying machine.

    And we should investigate (lets have a Royal Commission into why ghetto burbs and whole communities of people are on welfare) a whole different approach to providing welfare, even direct payments, surely there is a better way of doing things apart from having Centrelink being the be all and end all.

23. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 12:05 pm

    <

    @revolutionarycitizen

    " if you ever get a GST bill for a Bentley you’ll understand why it was introduced" …. revolutionarycitizen

    ha ha ha

24. Kaye LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 12:06 pm

    As far as the DSP is concerned, everyone can tell a story about someone they heard about on A Current Affair who is rorting the system. Shall we talk about what politicians claim in entitlements and then say…ooops, caught, here’s the money back, naughty office girls making that mistake. Shall we talk about how many billions are being stripped from revenue through state sanctioned tax evasion.

    But hell no, because some idiot claims a couple of hundred a week fraudulently, let’s crucify all those on the DSP and their carers and let’s separate them from the doctor who understands and has been treating their case.

25. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 12:14 pm

    “They make it so difficult that people will give up, and then the unemployment figures will go down.”

    Or they institute some moronic work for welfare scheme with the sole purpose of frustrating you to the point that you take any job available, or they pension you off to DSP. (Both of which John Howard did for 11 years, managed to get unemployment down to 4% though)

    Kaye, even as an able bodied adult dealing with Centrelink can be like repeatedly inflicting blunt force trauma upon oneself. The rules are inflexible where they need to be flexible, vague where they shouldn’t be, loop-holes where there shouldn’t be, and all administered via an all knowing all powerful bureaucracy that has become unwilling to accept change.

    It would be no surprise that at some point people with complex issues will need to engage lawyers to assist with their claims because the system in many instances has become far too onerous where it need not be.

    I feel for both you and your son. And it only makes me all the more annoyed at the system knowing that there are plenty of people who are on DSP who have no business being there, I am also annoyed that DSP isn’t administered independently.

26. Kaye LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 12:22 pm

    rc,

    Perhaps instead of getting your information from the Daily Telegraph, you may be interested in some facts in context.

    Australia spends 19.5% of our GDP on social welfare, whereas some European countries like France and Belgium spend upwards of 30% of their GDP on the welfare system

    Australia ranks 25th of 30 countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development with data available in terms of expenditure for unemployment.

    The largest slice of our welfare payments goes towards the age pension. According to OECD Pensions at a Glance 2013, Australia’s public spending on the age pension is much lower than pension spending in Europe.

    Australia spends 3.5% of GDP on the age pension, while Italy spends 15%, France spends 14% and the United Kingdom spends 6%.

    We do need to plan for our aging demographic but quick cuts and short-term fixes are not the answer.

    “The effect of the ageing of the baby boom generation is illustrated in Chart 4, which shows the change in the number of persons by years of age between 1996 and 2013 (after taking account of deaths and migration). The largest population increase is among fifty- to sixty-six-year-olds, with each year group around 100,000 larger than the comparable group in 1996. Cumulatively, there were 1.7 million more people aged fifty to sixty-four years – the age at which rates of receipt of the DSP start to rise significantly – in 2013 than in 1996.

    Between 1996 and 2012 the proportion of people of working age receiving the DSP rose from 4.3 per cent to 5.6 per cent. If the age structure of the population were held constant at 1996 shares, then the figure would be 5.0 per cent – in other words, nearly half of the total increase is unrelated to any changes in the labour market, the incidence of disability or individual behaviour.

    More importantly, a series of policy changes from the mid 1990s also had a major impact on the number of people receiving the DSP and other payments. One of the most important of these was the increase in the age pension qualifying age for women from sixty to sixty-five in 1995. Previously, women receiving the DSP were required to shift to the age pension once they turned sixty, and women who became disabled after turning sixty weren’t able to claim the DSP unless they had lived in Australia for less than the ten years needed to qualify for an age pension. As the cut-off age started to increase, women with disabilities in this age group increasingly claimed the DSP. As Chart 5 shows, the proportion rose from close to zero to about 13 per cent by 2013.

    But as the number of women receiving the DSP went up, the number receiving the age pension went down – and, as Chart 6 shows, it went down by much more.

    In 1995, only about 650 women aged sixty to sixty-four received the DSP and 211,000 received the age pension. By 2012, 86,000 female DSP recipients were in that age group, but only 28,000 age pensioners. So the total number receiving one or other of these pensions has nearly halved, and now the majority receive the DSP. Where once 60 per cent of women of that age received a pension, now the figure is 13 per cent.”

    Is Australia’s welfare system unsustainable?

27. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 12:29 pm

    “As far as the DSP is concerned, everyone can tell a story about someone they heard about on A Current Affair who is rorting the system. Shall we talk about what politicians claim in entitlements and then say…ooops, caught, here’s the money back, naughty office girls making that mistake. Shall we talk about how many billions are being stripped from revenue through state sanctioned tax evasion.”

    Apples and Oranges, but to humour you, sure, lets start the wealth confiscation and asset seizures right away so everyone can be paid to sit at home. Welfare is a safety net, not an income equalization or wealth redistribution mechanism, no matter how much those on the left want everyone on welfare (even though just about every Australian family does receive some form of it) it just can’t happen and be sustainable at the same time. Direct welfare payments increased by 30% in six years, medicare by 40% in five years.

    If you want that sort of trend to continue, hands up who wants 50% starting marginal tax rates that scale up from there? Anyone? Which party is going to introduce them and be rendered un-electable forever? Or who wants to wager that once the demographic shift dumps a few million on the aged pension rolls the government borrows like Greece (Or the UK, France, Italy, Spain, Norway etc) to pay for it without every being able to pay it back? So we either fix it now, or accept German bailouts in 30 years.

    “But hell no, because some idiot claims a couple of hundred a week fraudulently, let’s crucify all those on the DSP and their carers and let’s separate them from the doctor who understands and has been treating their case.”

    The Shotgun Sheikh was on DSP, he appeared well enough to hold people hostage for 16 hours, a great many of our Jihadis were apparently too ill too work, just no too ill to wage war in Syria and Iraq. And on it goes, DSP now covers such a wide ranging area of “disability” that just about everyone with a bad attitude and a pen happy doctor can get it. We either have a system issue or we need a Royal Commission into the disability pandemic that currently affects upwards of 800,000 people.

28. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 12:31 pm

    “Australia spends 19.5% of our GDP on social welfare, whereas some European countries like France and Belgium spend upwards of 30% of their GDP on the welfare system”

    And look how well it has turned out for them, anyone who wants to emulate Europe should go live there.

29. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 12:37 pm

    At least I got a good laugh out of this one… though I guess no-one will be laughing if the parody is anything close to reality. Here’s hoping eh?

    Kaye, I feel for you and your son. Definitely seems unfair to me, and very much like the pitfalls of a bureaucracy… large organisation with inflexible rules trying to legislate morality/fairness… always something that doesn’t fit right. People caring more about rules than people. Please keep us informed of your progress “attacking the lunatic asylum with a banana”… personal stories are always relevant.

30. Kaye LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 12:37 pm

    We can throw statistics backwards and forwards all day except I have to go to the hospital now. Read the stuff about the change in age for women to access the old age pension and get back to me.

    And please, never feel obligated to “humour” me. If I wanted to I could chew you up and spit you out but I am choosing to remain civil and present facts to counter your Murdoch headlines with shallow IPA justification.

31. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    “Or who wants to wager that once the demographic shift dumps a few million on the aged pension rolls the government borrows like Greece (Or the UK, France, Italy, Spain, Norway etc) to pay for it without every being able to pay it back? So we either fix it now, or accept German bailouts in 30 years.”

    Speaking of apples and oranges… stop comparing Australia’s budget to countries that are not sovereign to their own currency. Australia is sovereign to its own currency and all of its debts are issued in its own currency. It can’t go bankrupt.

32. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 12:42 pm

    “And look how well it has turned out for them, anyone who wants to emulate Europe should go live there.”

    For once, revolutionary arsewipe and I are completely agreed. Off you go and take all the other LNP voters with you.

33. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm

    <

    " if you ever get a GST bill for a Bentley you’ll understand why it was introduced" …. revolutionarycitizen

    And still the idiot wants to talk fiscal matters.

34. mars08December 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm

    We simply MUST do something about people getting old, unemployed and/or sick. It’s not sustainable!

35. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 12:49 pm

    <

    @mars08

    Abbotts going to allow a conscience vote on euthanasia.

    No word yet on whether he wants euthanasia to be compulsory for a certain "calibre" of person.

36. stephentardrewDecember 22, 2014 at 12:57 pm

    John maybe it could be a reversible Baldrick like cunning plan.

37. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 1:01 pm

    “Speaking of apples and oranges… stop comparing Australia’s budget to countries that are not sovereign to their own currency. Australia is sovereign to its own currency and all of its debts are issued in its own currency. It can’t go bankrupt.”

    The UK, has its own sovereign currency and has previously defaulted on its debts. Issuing debts in your own currency is fine, as long as you don’t later have to print money to repay those debts. Why? Because of volume devaluation which causes rapid inflation. For a country like Australia where the vast bulk of consumer items are imported printing money is economic suicide.

    (What is with the left and the daft fascination with the same money printing idea that destroyed Germany in the 30s?)

    “For once, revolutionary arsewipe and I are completely agreed. Off you go and take all the other LNP voters with you.”

    If the left in Australia love Europe so much and wish to emulate the exact same ruinous policies they have pursued there, save everyone else the hassle and just move there. There is no law preventing the left moving to where their ideology is the ruling norm, none.

    Or maybe the thought of Europe’s horrendous unemployment rate put you all off the idea of what happens when you create a debt driven welfare nanny state perhaps?

    “We simply MUST do something about people getting old, unemployed and/or sick. It’s not sustainable!”

    With our current tax base 97% of economists agree it isn’t…

38. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 1:15 pm

    <

    Just finished cleaning the "Bentley" of bbqs ….. dodged GST due to good Accountant.

    " if you ever get a GST bill for a Bentley you’ll understand why it was introduced" …. revolutionarycitizen

    .

39. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    Don’t worry John, with all the welfare you soak up like an obedient sponge you’ve likely not paid a dollar in tax your entire life… How does it feel to be a freeloader anyway?

40. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 1:25 pm

    <

    @revolutionarycitizen

    "all the welfare you soak up like an obedient sponge you’ve likely not paid a dollar in tax your entire life"

    Paying a very good Accountant helps but I have and continue to pay more tax than most …. and most likely more than you.

    So this post of yours is as far removed from reality as the rest of your posts.

    We could do a monetary challenge …. if you are up to it ?

    And I feel sure you will be …. "" if you ever get a GST bill for a Bentley you’ll understand why it was introduced" …. revolutionarycitizen"

41. my sayDecember 22, 2014 at 1:33 pm

    This fool has ice running through his veins,Why oh Why would you give morrison ,welfare,
    That is like putting Hitler in charge of all the Jewish people many years back,
    Iam really hoping it will back fire because unlike people seeking asylum ,the people on welfare do have a voice

42. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm

    Touched a nerve hey John? The only people living in non-reality are those on the left who still remain there after their failed experiment has been shown for what it is, the greatest lie ever told.

43. Matters NotDecember 22, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    RC you really need to read more widely about Europe, particularly the Scandinavian States such as Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

    It is a simple idea supported by both economic theory and most people’s intuition: If welfare benefits are generous and taxes high, fewer people will work. Why bother being industrious, after all, if you can get a check from the government for sitting around — and if your choice to work means that much of your income will end up in the tax collectors’ coffers?

    Here’s the rub, though: The idea may be backward.

    Some of the highest employment rates in the advanced world are in places with the highest taxes and most generous welfare systems, namely Scandinavian countries.

    Further re your comment UK ‘default’ – which wasn’t by the way. I notice you didn’t provide a link so I’ll help you out

    In their best selling book, This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly, Carmen M. Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff describe the cut – from 5pc to 3.5pc – as a default, which actually it wasn’t, either technically or in any other regard.

    The prospectus for the original war loan gave the Treasury the right to redeem the stock at any time. Given that interest rates had at that time sunk significantly below the original rate, all the Debt Management Office was doing was exercising its right to refinance the debt at a lower rate. There was nothing new about this exercise. The same thing had been done with a number of other government debts in the 1880s. These were swapped into “consols”, which like the 1932 War Loan, are still around to this day

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100015105/britain-has-never-defaulted-or-has-it-technical/

    Shakes head and wonders what RC has to offer, apart from complete bullsh@t.

    But perhaps you have a link?

44. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    <

    @ revolutionarycitizen

    Want to take up the monetary challenge ?

    " if you ever get a GST bill for a Bentley you’ll understand why it was introduced" …. revolutionarycitizen

    Lets see you put your money where your mouth is.

45. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    <

    Does everyone online want to see " revolutionarycitizen" take up my monetary challenge ?

46. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 22, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    @John Fraser

    I heard the talkback caller making this comment too and it reminded me of the sheer lack of balance our alleged justice system delivers depending on whether one comes from the Big End of Town or not.

    I thought she made the point really well in equating the chicken feed that Grocon had to pay as approx. $83,000 per human life taken.

    When the Greens/Labor/Progressives/sane Indies Alliance gets back in, I want to see legislative change made so that scumbags like Grocon don’t get off so lightly, if such a sad event occurs again.

47. RossleighDecember 22, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    John Fraser, Mark Twain said it best: “Don’t argue with a fool, they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!”

48. mars08December 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm

    Referece to me at 11:17 am…

    How encouraging to see that aRCee is sticking to the script…

49. Win jeavonsDecember 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    This clever article had me laughing out loud, You have to laugh or go shoot yourself. Each summer I worry about bushfires and drought, now I have to worry about a “government” that doesn’t understand the difference between a democratic government “of the people , for the people” and a plutocratic kleptocracy. I feel for the increasing desperation of those a genuine democracy would see as its prime clients. R.I.P. free and fair Australia, I won’t be singing “advance Australia fair” any day soon , more likely “those were the days”.

50. stephentardrewDecember 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    Brilliantly done Matters Not A+ though I think it will just slide over Devolutionary Citizen’s head.

51. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 1:57 pm

    <

    Waiting to see if " revolutionarycitizen" is up to the monetary challenge

    Lets see him put up or shut up.

52. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    <

    @Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Yes !

    She was very eloquent.

53. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 2:01 pm

    Matters, you conveniently missed the fears of a Scandinavian sovereign debt crisis, sure, those economies are recording GDP growth, but largely in-line with government spending backed by borrowings. Which indicates that the real underlying economy is as dead as it is elsewhere in Europe. I am also sure that Norway counting on its oil reserves to pay its welfare state and debts in future would be a little concerned with the current oil price. (As an average Scandinavian countries carry debt burdens at twice the rate of Australia, and they haven’t generated the level of wealth returns for their populations either, given that Australians are still wealthier than Scandinavians, even with their governments borrowing and taxing so much more, wonder why that is?)

    Maybe you should have done something a little more studious than read the NYT…

    The notion that high taxes and high debt equate to wealth generation is a dangerous myth. The reverse may also be as likely to be true, but that wasn’t what we were discussing.

54. AnomanderDecember 22, 2014 at 2:08 pm

    rc, if you don’t like the way our society chooses to care for those less fortunate, perhaps you should be the one who packs-up and moves somewhere else. I can’t help feeling Australia would be a much better place without your venom and neoliberal idiocy.

    As someone who has never been out of work a day in my life, never claimed any welfare nor shirked from paying my full quota of taxes. I believe the welfare system is there as a societal insurance policy, should something untoward ever befall me. This same benefit should exist for everyone because that is what a good and humane society does for its people.

55. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    “In Denmark, consumers owe their creditors 321 percent of disposable incomes, a world record that the Paris-based OECD said in November demands a policy response.”

    And they’re still not as wealthy as Australians, taxes and welfare you say?

56. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 2:14 pm

    <

    Looks like the "citizen" is not so "revolutionary" at all.

    Looks like I will be able to add this :

    "Don’t worry John, with all the welfare you soak up like an obedient sponge you’ve likely not paid a dollar in tax your entire life… How does it feel to be a freeloader anyway?" ….. revolutionarycitizen"

    to this :

    " if you ever get a GST bill for a Bentley you’ll understand why it was introduced" …. revolutionarycitizen"

    The spineless " revolutionarycitizen".

57. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 2:15 pm

    “rc, if you don’t like the way our society chooses to care for those less fortunate, perhaps you should be the one who packs-up and moves somewhere else. I can’t help feeling Australia would be a much better place without your venom and neoliberal idiocy”

    Given that the Nationals are the most successful political party in Australia, being in more governments than any other, a record the Liberal Party is doing its utmost to catch up to, your assertion that it is society that is choosing to create the welfare state is plain wrong. Australians have been notionally conservative for much of the last century, it has been a minority who have demanded ruinously expensive social policy. So again, as opposed to trying to recreate the failed European Model, save the majority and leave.

    “As someone who has never been out of work a day in my life, never claimed any welfare nor shirked from paying my full quota of taxes. I believe the welfare system is there as a societal insurance policy, should something untoward ever befall me. This same benefit should exist for everyone because that is what a good and humane society does for its people.”

    No one is disputing the need for a safety net, but when welfare is paid to the vast majority of households it ceases to be a safety net, it becomes wealth redistribution. Which, as you’d be well aware has never worked anywhere it has been tried.

58. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 2:16 pm

    <

    @ revolutionarycitizen

    Keep going with your failed comments.

    Coward.

59. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 2:19 pm

    Prove me wrong John? Oh, that’s right, you can’t…

    You know why they put yellow stars on socialist flags? Matches the colour of their bellies…

60. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    All this talk about the welfare state (eg Belgium) made me curious… so I went looking, and found the social expenditure as a percentage of gdp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state)… but then remembered that they also tax at different rates… so I found the taxation rate, also as a percentage of gdp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP). Using some algebra, I thought the only “fair” comparison was to then compare the percentages of taxation revenue spent on social expenditure (Think of it as a household budget expressed as a percentage of income.. in this case a measure of generosity to the people).

    I combined the two tables and came up with the following table ranked by Percentage:
    (Disclaimer; the two tables were for different years (2012, 2013), so the end result may vary, but I’m assuming some sort of stability in policy. I used the percentages in the first column which were more complete)

    Country; Social spending on tax (% of taxation spent on social):
    Japan 78.80
    Australia 75.58
    United States 74.35
    France 73.99
    Spain 73.46
    Greece 73.00
    Portugal 71.35
    Ireland 70.13
    Finland 69.95
    Italy 66.67
    Austria 65.21
    New Zealand 64.93
    Switzerland 64.63
    Germany 64.53
    Luxembourg 64.11
    Denmark 62.86
    Sweden 62.45
    Poland 61.83
    Netherlands 61.06
    United Kingdom 61.03
    Slovakia 60.68
    Slovenia 60.56
    Czech Republic 60.06
    Belgium 58.12
    Canada 56.52
    Hungary 55.24
    Estonia 54.80
    Norway 52.52
    Chile 48.57
    Israel 42.93
    Iceland 42.57
    Turkey 39.38
    South Korea 34.70
    Mexico 24.92

    Which seems to show that Australia (75.58%) is more generous with our taxation revenue than your favoured countries (only marginally more than France, but much more than Belgium)… Now we are comparing apples.

    So, if you want more social spending, then it would seem you will also have to increase taxation in order to cover the overall cost…. but we already knew that didn’t we?

61. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm

    <

    @ revolutionarycitizen

    I'm quite prepared to "prove me wrong".

    Accept the monetary challenge.

    Or will you just continue with your cowardly ways.

62. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 2:31 pm

    <

    The coward " revolutionarycitizen" wont accept the monetary challenge.

    Always sprouting false conservative policy and when the time comes for him to show how well he has done from those policies he can't.

    The coward.

63. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 2:39 pm

    <

    Ho Ho Ho

    Santa came early when the " revolutionarycitizen" made today's comments.

    And then refused to back it …… up and showed everyone what a coward he is.

64. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 2:50 pm

    Revolutionary arsewipe shows his ignorance again. Creating money only causes hyperinflation when the increased demand cannot be met with goods and services. Comparing 2014 Australia to pre-1971 Europe is more of his apples vs oranges. We’re not constrained by the gold standard any longer.

    Most of Europe is being ravaged by neo-liberal politics and their austerity agenda, except for those nations with a more socialist outlook on life, e.g. the Scandinavian nations. The LNP is rapidly turning us into a carbon copy of austerity-ravaged Europe. When starving Australians start breaking into homes and businesses on a large scale I sure hope they start with the homes and businesses belonging to LNP voters. If your brains were dynamite you wouldn’t have enough to give yourselves a headache.

65. KelanneDecember 22, 2014 at 2:54 pm

    In my view Morrison is a sociopath, so anyone receiving any social welfare benefits should be very afraid. And for the record, I have not received any social security benefits during my lifetime and I am 61. However, I have friends and relatives who have been or are on benefits of different kinds and also seen professionally the plight of people who were put on the New Start allowance by the Labor Government. I am happy to see everyone working, however that has to be qualified by working in satisfying work in which they feel useful and valued.

66. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 2:58 pm

    “Shakes head and wonders what RC has to offer, apart from complete bullsh@t.”

    Breeding more mindless idiots who swallow every bit of crap that Rupert feeds to them and then regurgitate it.

67. Neil of SydneyDecember 22, 2014 at 3:02 pm

    “Most of Europe is being ravaged by neo-liberal politics and their austerity agenda,”

    I thought Europe was being ravaged by reckless spending.

    People then get in and try austerity to solve the problem of reckless socialist spending.

68. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    “No one is disputing the need for a safety net, but when welfare is paid to the vast majority of households it ceases to be a safety net, it becomes wealth redistribution. ”

    That would mean a whole lot of LNP voters are living on welfare. Is this an admission that you’re a bunch of hypocrites? Why are you telling everyone else how they should live when you aren’t prepared to live by the same rules?

69. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:05 pm

    And right on cue, here comes CommonArsewipe with more of his bible-basher bullshit and trying to convince us what a wonderful man Tony Abbott is.

70. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 3:11 pm

    “Revolutionary arsewipe shows his ignorance again. Creating money only causes hyperinflation when the increased demand cannot be met with goods and services. Comparing 2014 Australia to pre-1971 Europe is more of his apples vs oranges. We’re not constrained by the gold standard any longer.”

    Nonsense, it was QE monetary policy in the US of A that devalued their currency to the point where we achieved a better than parity conversion rate. It has been expectations of change in that policy that has lead to the USD gaining ground and the rapid decline in the value of our currency. Changes in our interest rates have also devalued our currency to some extent, However, there is no means by which currency devaluation through printing money can be avoided, nor the resulting inflation, precisely why Germany today has refused to allow Europe’s central bank to print Euros.

    “Most of Europe is being ravaged by neo-liberal politics and their austerity agenda, except for those nations with a more socialist outlook on life, e.g. the Scandinavian nations. The LNP is rapidly turning us into a carbon copy of austerity-ravaged Europe. When starving Australians start breaking into homes and businesses on a large scale I sure hope they start with the homes and businesses belonging to LNP voters. If your brains were dynamite you wouldn’t have enough to give yourselves a headache.”

    More nonsense, Greece literally ran out of money and defaulted on its debts, they didn’t enter Austerity by choice, there was none, there was no longer a line of credit for them to pay their bills, the only alternative to Austerity and massive German bail-outs was collapse of the Greek state. So which would you rather? The UK, the only other European state with a supposed Austerity program has been accumulating debt at a much faster rate than it had been previous, because the Tories have discovered that in-spite of talk arguing other-wise the Brits are lazy and want their free stuff for free and you’ll only ever get elected if you give it to them.

    Europe’s woes are a direct outcome of their socialist welfare state economics, that didn’t work for the Soviet Union, Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, China, Cambodia or anywhere else that has ever tried it either.

71. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:15 pm

    “I thought Europe was being ravaged by reckless spending.”

    Neil, keep on proving that you’re incapable of rational thought. The EU has a deficit limit. The OECD has recently published a paper discussing the problems associated with austerity/trickle down economics.

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/trends-in-income-inequality-and-its-impact-on-economic-growth_5jxrjncwxv6j-en;jsessionid=7ihprjls6t715.x-oecd-live-02

72. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 3:15 pm

    “That would mean a whole lot of LNP voters are living on welfare. Is this an admission that you’re a bunch of hypocrites? Why are you telling everyone else how they should live when you aren’t prepared to live by the same rules?”

    Your assumption that I speak for the LNP and its voters is false and quite ignorant. I haven’t told anyone how to live at all, I merely pointed out that our growth in welfare spending isn’t sustainable.

    I also pointed that we’re also wealthier and in a better fiscal position than your Scandinavian heroes, and I have to ask why on Earth would we want to emulate something we’re already better than? We’re trying to avoid sinking down to their level in the soup, not get there faster.

73. Margaret McMillanDecember 22, 2014 at 3:16 pm

    rc seems to think that the recipients of social welfare in Australia simply drag all that money out of the economy. (Perhaps they save it up to buy Bentleys and cigars.) He fails to understand that every cent of welfare payments goes back into the economy, thus creating jobs and increasing the tax base. I would argue that it would be far better to increase welfare payments.
    If we let rc decide who is or isn’t eligible for assistance, we would see thousands of people with no means of support as the jobs certainly aren’t out there. What will they do? Beg, borrow or steal? What happens to our civil society then?

74. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:25 pm

    “More nonsense, Greece literally ran out of money and defaulted on its debts, ”

    Do try to keep up. Greece is not sovereign to its own currency. The EU is a failed economic experiment. If the struggling nations pulled out of the EU and converted back to their own currency they would be able to deal with their problems more effectively.

    Why is it that people in Scandinavia are happy to pay a much higher tax rate and are happy to work despite all the social services they receive? If what you say is true, then why is Scandinavia proving you wrong? One city in Sweden has even introduced a 6 hour work day for its employees with no drop in pay because *evidence* shows that it would increase productivity and improve working conditions at the same time.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2600416/Sweden-introduces-six-hour-working-day-pay-bid-reduce-sick-leave-boost-efficiency-make-staff-happier.html

75. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:26 pm

    Margaret, revolutionary arsewipe fails to understand a lot of things. All he can do is hang on Rupert’s every word. Rupert would never lie to him.

76. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 3:27 pm

    Actually Margaret it doesn’t, since most people on welfare rent much of the welfare dollar goes in rents which are in-turn given to banks, which in-turn provide very little or nil productive churn for the economy. Then the government itself gets back a great portion of the welfare it spends through direct or indirect taxes across three separate layers of government. If the bulk of welfare were spend on consumer goods were spend or food or what have you that may be a different story, but as it is, that isn’t the case.

    I also never advocated no one get assistance, I only advocated that the assistance be capped at realistic level per household, having some households getting more per year in welfare than other households do with full time jobs is not only unsustainable it could hardly be called fair, or welfare at that point.

77. AnomanderDecember 22, 2014 at 3:30 pm

    “Given that the Nationals are the most successful political party in Australia”.

    Oh rc, you;re such a card. I’m pissing myself laughing at that statement alone.

    Last election the Nationals secured an amazing 4.3% of the vote – less than half the Greens votes.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/results/party-totals/

78. Neil of SydneyDecember 22, 2014 at 3:34 pm

    Scot Morrison is the refugees only hope.

    Under Howard/Costello we took refugees from UNHCR camps.

    Under Rudd/Gillard/Swan we took anybody with $$$$$$$$$$$10,000.

    Under Morrison we are now starting to take refugees from UNHCR camps rather than economic refugees with $$$10,000.

79. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 3:36 pm

    <

    For those who might believe anything " revolutionarycitizen " has to say then judge for yourself with this "Comment" of his :

    "December 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm
    Touched a nerve hey John? The only people living in non-reality are those on the left who still remain there after their failed experiment has been shown for what it is, the greatest lie ever told."

    And then when repeatedly challenged "revolutionarycitizen" showed everyone what a coward he is.

    "revolutionarycitizen" the monetary challenge is still there …. waiting for you to take it up.

    Show everyone you are not a coward …. hiding behind your meaningless words.

    “Don’t worry John, with all the welfare you soak up like an obedient sponge you’ve likely not paid a dollar in tax your entire life… How does it feel to be a freeloader anyway?”

80. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:38 pm

    “I also pointed that we’re also wealthier and in a better fiscal position than your Scandinavian heroes, and I have to ask why on Earth would we want to emulate something we’re already better than? We’re trying to avoid sinking down to their level in the soup, not get there faster.”

    Unlike your greedy LNP mates, some of us are more than happy to live comfortably rather than keep accumulating money that we don’t need. FFS Gina Rinehart is worth $20 billion, pays no income tax and lives in Singapore as a tax dodge. she could give away 19/20 of her wealth, never earn another cent and still live in absolute luxury for the rest of her life. But the miserable greedy bitch still wants more. She is even taking money from her own children so that she can make more money. This is the conservatives’ hero and role model.

    Why are you intent upon helping people like Gina to make even more money that they clearly don’t need, at the expense of 99% of Australians? Why do you want a society where only the most wealthy people can afford education, housing and health care? Where poor people will be forced to steal in order to eat? Do you really care so little for your own children that you want them growing up in a society comprised of a large number of desperate, dangerous people? How do you think businesses will survive when the majority of people have inadequate money to spend on food, let alone anything else?

81. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 3:40 pm

    “Do try to keep up. Greece is not sovereign to its own currency. The EU is a failed economic experiment. If the struggling nations pulled out of the EU and converted back to their own currency they would be able to deal with their problems more effectively.”

    The precept of the European Union is shared sovereignty where that sovereignty over-laps, so by virtue of being a member of the issuing institution of the Euro the Euro is the sovereign currency of every member state who has chosen to use it. So, the Euro is Greece’s sovereign currency. However, quite irrelevant to the point I made, that regardless of the nature of the currency, Greece literally ran out of it, not only ran out of, it ceased to be able to borrow any more of it. There-fore, it was the complete collapse of its economy that created the need for Austerity, not the other war around.

    Secondly, all of Greece’s debt are in Euros, meaning, if Greece went back to the Dracma it would be precisely worthless meaning Greece would actually have more to pay, and that would also include each and every citizen and residence of Greece who has a credit card or mortgage, all of those are in Euros too. Which is precisely why Greece didn’t leave the EU, because it would today resemble something like a cross between Zimbabe and Vietnam, where the poor are lumbered with a worthless currency while the rich trade in USD with a semi-functioning state attempting to hold it together.

82. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:40 pm

    Bwahahaha! The Nationals sure polled well in Victoria recently.

83. stephentardrewDecember 22, 2014 at 3:41 pm

    Lee:

    Great post clear, sharp, factual and to the point.

84. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 3:48 pm

    <

    " revolutionarycitizen" only has drachma and is feeling the pinch.

    coward.

85. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 3:49 pm

    “Actually Margaret it doesn’t, since most people on welfare rent much of the welfare dollar goes in rents which are in-turn given to banks, which in-turn provide very little or nil productive churn for the economy. Then the government itself gets back a great portion of the welfare it spends through direct or indirect taxes across three separate layers of government. If the bulk of welfare were spend on consumer goods were spend or food or what have you that may be a different story, but as it is, that isn’t the case.”

    Actually Revolutionary arsewipe. rent in public housing is capped. In SA if I recall correctly it is limited to a maximum of 20% of one’s income. There would be very few welfare recipients who could afford private rentals, unless they were living in something that really should be condemned.

86. diannaartDecember 22, 2014 at 3:53 pm

    Hmmmm GST on Bentleys – AKA Luxury Car Tax

    Let’s just see how paying this l’il extra in order to be ‘superior’ to the rest of us helps Australia.

    Introduction

    1. Australians purchase approximately one million new motor vehicles each year, including both imported and domestically manufactured vehicles. Around 100 000 of these vehicles are luxury cars.[1]

    2. The Luxury Car Tax (LCT) is the only Australian Government tax imposed on the taxable supply or importation of goods or services designated as luxury. For LCT purposes, a ‘luxury car’ is a car with a Goods and Services Tax (GST) inclusive value above a specific threshold that is designed to carry fewer than nine passengers and a load of less than two tonnes. For 2010–11, the applicable threshold for a luxury car is $57 466, and $75 375 for those vehicles meeting defined fuel efficiency standards. The portion of the value of a luxury car above the LCT threshold is currently taxed at 33 per cent.

    3. The LCT was introduced from 1 July 2000 under the framework of A New Tax System, which also introduced the GST. Entities registered or required to be registered for GST purposes are typically liable to pay the LCT, and this is recorded and paid via a taxpayer’s Business Activity Statement (BAS).

    4. A rebate scheme for primary producers and tourism operators was introduced on 1 July 2008. The rebate entitles eligible taxpayers to claim refunds of a portion of the LCT to a maximum of $3000 per car. Primary producers may claim for one car per year and tourism operators for all eligible vehicles.

    Isn’t it great that 100,000 wealthy people get a $3,000 rebate on their oh-so-essential luxury cars.

    7. Since its introduction in 2000, the LCT has raised almost $3.2 billion in net revenue. This figure included $472 million for 2009–10, with further increases expected in subsequent years in line with the overall increases expected in motor vehicle sales.[2]

    $3.2 billion since 2000 to 2009 which amounts to:

    …The LCT has been in place for almost eleven years. …is relatively concentrated in a small number of taxpayers; and contributes less than one per cent of total taxation revenue each year….

    http://www.anao.gov.au/Publications/Audit-Reports/2010-2011/Administration-of-the-Luxury-Car-Tax/Audit-brochure

    One Percent of the total taxation revenue each year! Wow – those wunnerful rich people buying luxury cars, saving Australia’s big bad debt at a rate of 1% per year.

    Break out the Moët & Chandon – better just let it trickle all over me – I am saved from a life of poverty…

87. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 3:53 pm

    “Unlike your greedy LNP mates, some of us are more than happy to live comfortably rather than keep accumulating money that we don’t need. FFS Gina Rinehart is worth $20 billion, pays no income tax and lives in Singapore as a tax dodge. she could give away 19/20 of her wealth, never earn another cent and still live in absolute luxury for the rest of her life. But the miserable greedy bitch still wants more. She is even taking money from her own children so that she can make more money. This is the conservatives’ hero and role model.”

    Why should she? Why are you more entitled to what she has than she is? Should I just come over to your house and cart off your TV because it’s better than mine?

    She makes money, what have you got against that? Without people making money you’d get no welfare, and since everyone is on welfare in this country you should be praying for more Gina’s to come out of the woodwork or prepare for 50% and higher income taxes to go with your 20% GST.

    “Why are you intent upon helping people like Gina to make even more money that they clearly don’t need, at the expense of 99% of Australians? Why do you want a society where only the most wealthy people can afford education, housing and health care? Where poor people will be forced to steal in order to eat? Do you really care so little for your own children that you want them growing up in a society comprised of a large number of desperate, dangerous people? How do you think businesses will survive when the majority of people have inadequate money to spend on food, let alone anything else?”

    Australia’s top 1% also includes a fair chunk of the public service, should we ask them to give the money back seeing as they’re all getting paid out of taxes, literally meaning, the poor are paying people to become the 1%…

    I have only advocated that we abandon the welfare state economics that didn’t work in Europe, whatever we chose to replace those economic models with could be anything. I have also advocated more than once for a constitutionally mandates unavoidable nonrefundable tax threshold on incomes, and a constitutionally mandated spending arrangement that keeps the politicians away from certain spending areas.

    I don’t support the vast majority of Australian households being given welfare, and anyone who understands just how entirely ridiculous and unsustainable the wealth redistribution has become echoes that sentiment.

88. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 3:57 pm

    “Actually Revolutionary arsewipe. rent in public housing is capped. In SA if I recall correctly it is limited to a maximum of 20% of one’s income. There would be very few welfare recipients who could afford private rentals, unless they were living in something that really should be condemned.”

    The vast majority of the 90+% of Australian households who receive some form of welfare live in private housing. Australia has over 750.000 unemployed on payments, which is well above and beyond any housing available to government. Which is why the previous government instituted a number of policies to help bring the cost of housing down via subsidies an such, the biggest being the NRAS program.

89. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 4:01 pm

    “Hmmmm GST on Bentleys – AKA Luxury Car Tax”

    Completely different tax, you pay, you pay the import tariff and duty first, then you pay LCT + GST plus Stamp Duty set by the state you live in and a whole host of other fees, charges and such.

90. silkwormDecember 22, 2014 at 4:04 pm

    Wow. Three nasty right-wing trolls on this thread.

91. RossleighDecember 22, 2014 at 4:04 pm

    Like I said before, John Fraser, don’t argue with a fool and rc is certainly showing his experience there. And I’m not just picking on his hyphen in “therefor” or his talking about “Zimbabe” – what a babe she is!
    I’m not going to dignify rc comments with an argument because they’re just assertions without evidence. He clearly has no training in economics and given it’s the middle of the day, I hope that he isn’t at work because a worker who spends this much time trolling must clearly be poor value for money.
    But that’s possibly unfair, he may just be on holidays for the Christmas break and would rather spend it inside talking as though he actually knows something.
    I’m doing the same? Well, not really, I’ve been out most of the day.
    Anyway, I probably should thank him as The Australian Independent Media closes in on 6 millon views – he and Neil are probably responsible for a million of them!
    😀

92. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 4:07 pm

    <

    "I don’t support the vast majority of Australian households being given welfare" …… revolutionarycitizen

    Got that one wrong in relation to me.

    "revolutionarycoward".

93. RossleighDecember 22, 2014 at 4:08 pm

    And dianaart, don’t start him on cars next he’ll be trying to say that he’s an expert on cars as well!

94. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    <

    @Rossleigh

    Its not an argument.

    "revolutionarycoward" …….. has the chance to back up just one of the assertions made here but wont.

    "revolutionarycoward" !

95. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    Re monetary challenge… can’t afford to actually buy one, but:

    Thank you for your Bentley inquiry
    MY 2015 Bentley Flying Spur W12
    RRP $435,900 inc GST of approx $10,500 this includes 33% LCT +orc + options
    Hope this help’s, feel free to call into our showroom’s whenever you are passing.
    Merry Christmas

    Kind Regards

    Paul Jarman
    Lance Dixon Bentley
    6,Hood Street
    Collingwood Vic 3066

    Does that meet the challenge, or was there some other aspect to it?

96. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 4:14 pm

    <

    @CommonA

    That wasn't the monetary challenge to "revolutionarycoward".

    Buying a Bentley and paying GST on it without offsetting it against other tax liabilities means you haven't got a very good accountant.

    Ask "revolutionarycoward" why he wont accept the monetary challenge.

97. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 4:16 pm

    “$44,999 or less 3% (eg, $3 for every $100 or part thereof)
    $45,000 or more $1,350 (3% up to $45,000)

    PLUS 5% for the amount over $45,000 (eg, $5 for every $100 or part thereof)”

    Stamp Duty on new cars sold in Queensland

    So LCT at 33% plus GST at 10% plus Stamp Duty at the above, plus registration, all on top of import duties and compliance costs… Yes, the rich pay no tax those greedy capitalist pigs…

98. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 4:19 pm

    <

    The "revolutionarycoward" is still banging on about fiscal matters but will not take the monetary challenge.

    C'mon "revolutionarycoward" accept the monetary challenge …. you won't need an accountant and you will be able to prove your economic "credentials".

99. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    <

    See what cowards "Team Australia" are.

    "revolutionarycoward" right up there with the best of them.

100. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 4:27 pm

     “Why should she? Why are you more entitled to what she has than she is? ”

     That’s a straw man. Where did I say I am entitled to what Gina has? I’ve worked since I left school, have paid income tax all of my adult life and have never received any form of welfare from the government. Why is it good enough for me, earning $70,000 pa, to pay income tax but Gina with her $20 billion doesn’t pay a cent? And let’s not forget how Gina earns that money either. She makes it by screwing migrants. She considers Australians don’t want to work because they aren’t prepared to work for $2 per day. Would Gina work for $2 per day? We both know the answer to that.

     “She makes money, what have you got against that? ”

     Nothing, if she paid income tax at the same rate as I do. Why should the people who can most afford to pay it pay nothing at all? Why are they so special that they can have access to tax-minimising schemes that the majority of us cannot access? I support her business by using electricity. I buy food, clothes and other goods to keep others in business, just like the other 22 million Australians. Why is a relative handful of people more important than everyone else?

     “Australia’s top 1% also includes a fair chunk of the public service, should we ask them to give the money back seeing as they’re all getting paid out of taxes, literally meaning, the poor are paying people to become the 1%…”

     That’s absolute crap and why should public servants work for free?

     http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/elite-earners-on-even-money-in-terms-of-national-wage-20140727-zxc5w.html

     “The analysis by the university’s Melbourne Institute found that the 180,000 Australians in the top 1 per cent earned an average of just under $400,000 a year before tax.”

     There are very few public servants earning anywhere near that much. Not even the doctors I work with earn that. Unlike Gina Rinehart, public servants do pay income tax.

     “I don’t support the vast majority of Australian households being given welfare, and anyone who understands just how entirely ridiculous and unsustainable the wealth redistribution has become echoes that sentiment.”

     For starters, even Kevin Andrews says 1 in 5 Australians received some form of income support from the government in 2012, so that’s hardly the vast majority of households. If your greedy mates cut back on exorbitant salaries for CEOs and paid people a fair wage for a day’s work instead of destroying jobs, then even less Australian households would need welfare. More Australians would have more money to spend on whatever product or service your mates are selling.

101. diannaartDecember 22, 2014 at 4:27 pm

     Ah yes, GST – the democratic tax. The little tax everyone pays whether they can afford it or not. Bentleys, beer or tampons – such little luxuries, such a sense of entitlement.

     Some stuff we commoners don’t need to know because we cannot make the same claims:

     Goods and services tax
     Unless your business is missing out on claiming credits or is accounting for goods and services tax (GST) on something which is not subject to GST, you would think there would be no GST savings to be had. But there is usually one area relating to GST where the business can improve cashflow.
     First, you need to determine whether the business should be on monthly or quarterly business activity statements (BAS) and whether cash or accruals accounting is preferable. Note that the turnover thresholds for quarterly returns and cash accounting are $20 million and $2 million respectively.

     http://www.bentleys.com.au/Our-Voice/Bentleys-Publications/Indirect-tax-Opportunity-or-necessary-evil

102. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 4:33 pm

     John, thanks for that….. So, just to be 100% clear. You claim that an accountant could offset the full GST on the purchase a luxury car for anyone who collects GST as part of their business? And RC is failing to disabuse you of the notion?

     Kaye… found this little statement on the centerlink page: http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/waiting-periods
     “Exemptions (to waiting period)
     If you can demonstrate that you are in severe financial hardship as a result of having to use your leave entitlements or termination payments to pay any unavoidable or reasonable costs, we may be able to waive this waiting period.” I’m thinking if you can find a reasonable person in that department, that you might be able to get them to agree that this exemption applies the test of using termination payments (of $0) to pay unavoidable costs (hospital/rehabilitation). As I said, I’m hoping for the best for you and your son.

103. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 4:43 pm

     Lee, you are being a little deceptive.

     Your link, goes on to state: “To join the wealthiest 1 per cent, you had to earn at least $211,000.” (you quoted the average figure)
     Then if you consider the wages of the public servant fat cats… you see that we are indeed paying them to join the 1%. (many are above the average, including what we paid Tim Flannery)

     http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/common-sense-lost-in-world-of-fat-cat-bureaucrats/story-fnc2jivw-1226346245972
     http://victimsofdsto.com/memo/fatcats.html

104. Voiceo ReasonDecember 22, 2014 at 4:43 pm

     Kaye Lee
     RC is most highly likely -a paid PR troll (alternatively a retired partisan/politician/bureaucrat)
     their rhetoric is NOT civil or deserving respectful debate, it is pure ideological bigotry and someone who’s essentially sold their soul for money, position, power or politics. Their claims are intentionally diversionary to confuse the public with half truths and made up diversions to change the main thrust of the arguments.
     Just review his/her profile and see that the ideological statements are of a ideologue i.e. not ordinary person but someone with a strong self interested agenda.
     Their argument is the same as on the other leftist blogs;
     typical parrot type mantras repeated ad neaseum.
     Just ignore because troll’s don’t use logic, as such are irrelevant, and only escalate their lies and distortions, especially if you feed them.

105. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 4:47 pm

     CommonA, it wasn’t my intention to be deceptive and I’ll accept your figure of $211,000. However, the vast majority of public servants are still earning below that. Take a look at a Public Service Notice of Vacancies. Most positions are earning less than $100,000 pa.

106. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 4:53 pm

     Yes, but the point was that there were some public servants we were paying to join the 1%, and that is true. For the vast majority, no… but if you are targeting all the 1%, then that includes some public servants.

107. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 4:53 pm

     <

     @CommonA

     Further up on this page the " revolutionarycoward" made this comment :

     ""Don’t worry John, with all the welfare you soak up like an obedient sponge you’ve likely not paid a dollar in tax your entire life… How does it feel to be a freeloader anyway?" ….. revolutionarycitizen"

     I then offered him a monetary challenge.

     The " revolutionarycoward" didn't even ask what the "monetary challenge" is.

     He just refuses to accept it because he will be found to be wrong …. again.

     "rc" is a coward.

108. rossleighbrisbaneDecember 22, 2014 at 5:00 pm

     Perhaps I should repost this from last year:

     Dealing with Liberals and trolls – a “how to” guide

109. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 5:05 pm

     “Yes, but the point was that there were some public servants we were paying to join the 1%, and that is true. For the vast majority, no… but if you are targeting all the 1%, then that includes some public servants.”

     That’s another straw man. I never denied that any public servants are earning that much. I said most of them are not.

     Why should public servants work for nothing? Do you and revolutionary arsewipe work for nothing?

     Why should anyone who earns a large salary not pay any income tax? you go on about welfare recipients getting something for nothing. How is this any different? The wealthiest people in Australia have made their money from the fruits of the labours of others and they pay nothing for it.

110. revolutionarycitizenDecember 22, 2014 at 5:31 pm

     “Darren purchases a new car for $68,043 (including $6023.60 GST and $1783.15” From the ATO on its GST and Motor Vehicles page, which outlines how GST is applied. It also means that the concept of a $10,000 GST bill on a $400,000 Bentley isn’t at all accurate, and that motor dealer should be a little more careful in future.

     “Why should anyone who earns a large salary not pay any income tax? you go on about welfare recipients getting something for nothing. How is this any different? The wealthiest people in Australia have made their money from the fruits of the labours of others and they pay nothing for it.”

     When did I say they should pay no tax? When did I ever say they should work for free? In-fact I said quite to opposite.

     The top 15% of income earners pay the majority of taxes received by government, how is that not paying anything in tax?

     Nor did I state that all public servants were in the 1%, only that some are, once you get into some of the management positions you enter that bracket. However, public servants in many instances enjoy other inducements that the private sector do not. (Not to mention there are simply far too many public servants in the first place)

     “That’s a straw man. Where did I say I am entitled to what Gina has? I’ve worked since I left school, have paid income tax all of my adult life and have never received any form of welfare from the government. Why is it good enough for me, earning $70,000 pa, to pay income tax but Gina with her $20 billion doesn’t pay a cent? And let’s not forget how Gina earns that money either. She makes it by screwing migrants. She considers Australians don’t want to work because they aren’t prepared to work for $2 per day. Would Gina work for $2 per day? We both know the answer to that.”

     If you went to a public school, went to a doctor, driven on a road, seen a policeman, in a million and one different ways you have benfited from one form of spending or welfare or another. And the fact is the majority of Australians will never in their lives pay the government $1 more than they received in that spending. (Which is a big problem)

     Gina doesn’t earn anything, her business (and her father’s business) earns money, which like many business’ is offset by debt obligations with any residual profit being held in assets which aren’t taxed until the capital is released. Which is why Gina fought her children to deny them access to their family trust, because upon access to those monies the children take responsibility of the tax liabilities, not the trustee.

     Gina’s companies in a round-a-bout way pay taxes, they pay fees, duties, charges both directly and indirectly across three layers of government. To say other-wise is a little dishonest.

     “For starters, even Kevin Andrews says 1 in 5 Australians received some form of income support from the government in 2012, so that’s hardly the vast majority of households. If your greedy mates cut back on exorbitant salaries for CEOs and paid people a fair wage for a day’s work instead of destroying jobs, then even less Australian households would need welfare. More Australians would have more money to spend on whatever product or service your mates are selling.”

     Centrelink has 7.1 million customers, or around 1 in 3 people in Australia, plus Centrelink does not equate to all welfare programs.

     Australia’s median wage is actually remarkably high, much higher than it is in the US of A, which is why we’re the wealthiest people in the world. So, this notion that evil CEOs are gobbling up all the money sounds a lot more like straight jealously and misplaced teenage angst than anything else. And since we’re the wealthiest people in the world who’ve never had it so good according to the world’s greatest treasurer we don’t need to be paying everyone welfare.

     You’d have more money in your pocket if the government didn’t spend money taking it off you to then only give it back to you…

     Sorry John, if I have Dracmas you’ve got Rubles…

111. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 5:33 pm

     Why aren’t any of the trolls answering these questions?

     Why are you intent upon helping people like Gina to make even more money that they clearly don’t need, at the expense of 99% of Australians? Why do you want a society where only the most wealthy people can afford education, housing and health care? Where poor people will be forced to steal in order to eat? Do you really care so little for your own children that you want them growing up in a society comprised of a large number of desperate, dangerous people? How do you think businesses will survive when the majority of people have inadequate money to spend on food, let alone anything else?

112. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 5:51 pm

     Lee, no I am not intent on allowing Gina to amass a huge fortune with no tax obligations… unless that is what you equate to, not hating the government, all it does, and all the ministers in particular.

     Yes we do want education for all, it’s the best way to reduce poverty. No stealing is not a good place to reduce people to, and hopefully there will always be another answer. Yes I want my two girls growing up in a civil society. Yes businesses need customers to survive, and yes a lot of suppliers of non-essential items will most likely be in for a rough ride…. Bankrupting all the wealthy Bently driving tax-dodging business owners and causing losses for the banks and rich share-holders silly enough to give them the money in the first place (I would have thought that was a benefit, except for the job losses, and drop in value of super?)

     As I said, we do want much of the same things, we just disagree on the mechanisms.

     As for the accusation of a straw man, I guess I just read too much into the “That’s absolute crap and why should public servants work for free?” statement, and likewise, perhaps you read the “Australia’s top 1% also includes a fair chunk of the public service” to be referring to a large chunk of the public service, rather than a large chunk of the 1%?… fair enough all round I guess.

     Cheers

113. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 5:53 pm

     “When did I say they should pay no tax? ”
     “The top 15% of income earners pay the majority of taxes received by government, how is that not paying anything in tax?”

     I’m asking why the double standard? Our government is bashing welfare recipients for getting something for nothing, but supporting high income earners to avoid paying income tax. The 75 wealthiest Australians pay nothing in income tax, thanks to creative accounting. Call it what you like, they’re not living on thin air so stop insulting our intelligence. Some of these people are paying $2 million pa to accountants to find tax-dodging loopholes.

     “If you went to a public school, went to a doctor, driven on a road, seen a policeman, in a million and one different ways you have benfited from one form of spending or welfare or another. ”

     By your distorted definition of welfare, every single person in Australia is a welfare recipient, including yourself. Stop being a hypocrite then and don’t use any government-funded service you have not paid for in income tax.

     “Centrelink has 7.1 million customers, or around 1 in 3 people in Australia, plus Centrelink does not equate to all welfare programs.”

     so Kevin Andrews must be lying. Fancy that!

114. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 5:56 pm

     “So, this notion that evil CEOs are gobbling up all the money sounds a lot more like straight jealously and misplaced teenage angst than anything else. ”

     You sound like a complete farking ignoramus more than anything else.

115. John FraserDecember 22, 2014 at 5:59 pm

     <

     Poor little " revolutionarycoward" back paddling in his "canoe" as fast as he can.

     No wonder the coward won't accept my monetary challenge.

116. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 6:13 pm

     “perhaps you read the “Australia’s top 1% also includes a fair chunk of the public service” to be referring to a large chunk of the public service, rather than a large chunk of the 1%?”

     Either way, the statement is a work of fiction. Most of us are earning less than $100,000 pa. Those of us below middle level management are on permanent tenure because we earn less than our counterparts in the private sector. Not all public servants at middle level management and above are earning more than their private sector equivalents either.

117. PhiDecember 22, 2014 at 6:24 pm

     Morrison is a Pentecostal.

     He believes, without a shred of evidence, that the Bible (which one for Pete’s sake?) is the “infallible word of God”. Oh dear me.

     He believes that everyone has sinned and needs salvation – watch out, everyone, and especially those who seek support from what we used to call government!

     He believes that Jesus Christ is coming again, assuming he ever came the first time, and that the ‘righteous’ (assumed to be the Liberal Party, Murdoch, coal, oil and gas barons plus assorted LNP friendly oligarchs) will inherit eternal life while the unrighteous (that’s you and me) will inherit eternal death. OMG!!!

     He speaks in tongues – this is a form of gobble-de-gook that secures the speaker immense credit amongst lesser Pentecostals, as well as eternal life for babbling incoherently about incomprehensible matters that even the speaker cannot interpret. We normally medicate such people but the Pentecostals elevate them to senior positions in their Church and some even become ministers in conservative governments.

     This is the bizarre, irrational and dangerous belief system that madman Morrison brings to governing our once decent nation.

     We are going to have to fight this religious nutter who has been put in charge of Social Security.

118. CommonADecember 22, 2014 at 6:42 pm

     Phi, we have yet to see how tongues will apply to social services, but I think Kaye has already reported some gobble-de-gook coming from his unhelpful department. As for what Morrison believes on eternal life… I would put it more like when Jesus returns that those who want to be with him, and those who don’t will both get their wish granted. And as you obviously do not share his views, then I say, no harm no foul?

119. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 6:48 pm

     “Morrison is a Pentecostal.”

     Wait for it …. no welfare for homosexuals or unwed mothers, $200 vouchers for exorcisms…..

120. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 7:25 pm

     Bill Mitchell’s blog article today:

     “Canberra is Australia’s capital city – a created city located in the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) to house the federal government and its bureaucracy. Official – data – shows that in 2013, the ACT has the highest household incomes of any state/territory, the highest household net average net worth and is heavily dependent on its wage and salary income. It is now a focus of federal government employment cuts which are forcing thousands of workers onto the unemployment queue, with little prospect of alternative employment at this stage given the general state of the economy. Over the weekend, I saw a news segment which documented the increased access of Canberrans for emergency food relief over the last 12 months. More than 10 per cent of the population in one of the highest income per capita cities in the world are below the poverty line. How can that be?”

     “In the Final Report, we learn that:

     “Income inequality … has increased in Australia since the mid-1980s” as has wealth inequality.
     Gini coefficients (closer to zero indicates increased equality) show that in the early 1980s, Australia recorded values around 0.27 to the current state of around 0.32.
     The ABS data for 2011-12 (latest) shows that the mean household net worth was $728,000 while the median was $434,000, which tells you how skewed the distribution is. A “relatively small number of households had high net worth and a relatively large number had low net worth”.
     Of the 33 OECD nations, “only eight … had a higher Gini coefficient than Australia — Chile, Mexico, Italy, Turkey, Israel, Portugal, the United States and the United Kingdom”.
     “In terms of relative income poverty, in 2000, 12.2 per cent of the Australian population population had an income that was less than 50 per cent of national median income”. By 2012, this figure had risen to 13.8 per cent and despite Australia being one of the highest income per capita nations in the OECD bloc, our poverty rate is significantly higher than the OECD average.”

     That and more at http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=29766. Perhaps revolutionary arsewipe can tell us again how wealthy we all are.

121. LeeDecember 22, 2014 at 7:32 pm

     There’s even a bit for Neil in Bill’s article:

     “So the more advanced nations are starting to replicate the societal dynamics of the poorer nations as inequality increases. The other point is that the growth shifted from pro-poor to pro-rich in the 1980s as the neo-liberal economic agenda became dominant.”

     Tell us again Neil how all this came about to fix Labor’s mess.

122. KenDecember 22, 2014 at 7:52 pm

     Scott Morrison appointed Minister for Social Services. In his first interview he has announced a new logo for his department, instead of Social Security it will now be known as the SS. When asked further questions by reporters Morrison said that he could not comment about operation on-welfare matters. This reporter understands that Transfield is being contracted by the Gov to begin building employment training camps in the central desert to be staffed by G4S training guards. It is understood the government intends to fund each unemployed, disabled, aged, homeless, sick, mentally ill, and most of the youth of Australia to attend these camps so they can experience the joy of work. After all Morrison has a new motto for his department, WORK SETS YOU FREE. This was apparently suggested to him by cabinet colleague Eric Abetz whose uncle saw it where his party worked in Poland many years ago, ARBEIT MACH FRIE at a place called Auschwitz.

123. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 22, 2014 at 8:44 pm

     I second Phi’s comments especially your final paragraph stating that we will have to fight Morrisscum in his new portfolio.

     It worked with his last failed portfolio of Immigration and Border Protection. Our constant criticisms made life too uncomfortable for both him and Abbott. The re-shuffle was an admission of defeat by rabid Abbott.

     We need to keep up the same level of fight, criticism, demands for accountability, demands for justice.

     I repeat – we need to keep up the same demands for justice – for vulnerable people on welfare until we have again defeated Morrisscum and further reminded him that the chair is waiting for him at the International Criminal Court for his
     Crimes Against Humanity, namely asylum seekers and refugees.

124. Sir ScotchMisteryDecember 22, 2014 at 9:05 pm

     @Rossleigh – well done, but can I suggest that after listening to liberal stars Bernardii and Cormann for as long as we have you did not need to translate their words into English for us. We are quite competent as members of the organisation of Citizen Journalists.

     Take this one for example – your notes/recording would have looked something like this i Suspect:

     Morrison: Vell zat’s exzactly vat ziss Goffernment iz doink. Under zee Labor Goffernment ve had zee ridiculous zituation of ze Goffernment taking ze money via taxation, from zee gut vorkers only to giff it back to ze families in zee form of generous payments ven a baby vos born or a child beginz zee school yearz, no?

     See, we can read it in it’s normal, unedited form.

     Vee aren’t stoopit you know.

     Maintain the rage.

125. Teresa LawrenceDecember 22, 2014 at 9:16 pm

     My Uncle Leo got a stunning green BMW M3 Coupe by working parttime online. this link

126. ' george hanson 'December 22, 2014 at 10:11 pm

     what a fabulous ,very sneaky move by the abbott …………..put morrison in a position where he will attract massive opprobium from the aust. public , And he will not be able to mount a challenge for the p.m. spot . Well played ,sir , and bugger the rest .

127. dennisDecember 22, 2014 at 10:18 pm

     Ok I can’t read anymore of rc fascist speak I am starting to think he is a fuken cia operative although that could be closer to the truth than a joke, if you take a quick look at all his/her/whoever, words there is little about the corporation welfare, he only attacks working class, couldn’t someone do an educated look at the way it is all put together, he is a sycophant for the wealthy, he is a plant he got you all going, you are actually debating him, his words are full of double speak, he is cold, inhumane, every now and then he is patronising anyone who turns his spin. False compassion turns my stomach, Jesus Christ I’m uneducated and not terribly bright, have my moments but, I can see through this fool like glass, but he is using all the rhetoric very eloquently that these scum use, the utter contempt and hatred for any thing so called social, even helping your mates, I feel like a socialist cockroach about to be ground under foot, the hatred well up in me, exactly the way he wants, I put my life on the line once to stand up to communism I would gladly put my life on the line against these unkind cold hard bastards, and their sickly propaganda. Sounds awful can’t you throw his comments in the toilet, good God I’m becoming a fascist like the bastard.

128. stephentardrewDecember 22, 2014 at 10:41 pm

     dennis:

     They just don’t realize the pain and agony that a brutal punishing government has on low wage earners, pensioners, veterans the unemployed and poor.

     Who gives a shit about other peoples pain.

     I totally understand where you are coming from and feel the pain.

     Take it easy man we can get through this together and soon they will be on their way for a very long time.

129. dennisDecember 22, 2014 at 11:46 pm

     Thanks Stephen, just hope your right. Thanks for the words.

130. Möbius EckoDecember 23, 2014 at 7:28 am

     ABC News 24 reported that welfare is to be capped for 2014/15, which means draconian cuts that Morrison has to sell.

     Again they went on about what a great job Morrison did in “stopping the boats”. There’s a massive difference in doing a job where you are given almost unlimited resources and funds, $3.3 billion, to one where you are told to cut large swaths of funding.

     To stop a handful of asylum seekers coming to Australia Morrison spent slightly less than the UNHCR did on looking after millions globally. Anyone given the massive resources Morrison was could have done the same and probably better. The reason I speculate Morrison didn’t do that well is that he had to cloud his operation in secrecy.

     On another topic I note that the snow job of Abbott’s reshuffle is in full swing. I’ve heard it called everything from a positive refresh to brilliant. Compare this to Labor’s reshuffles, which were always reported as the signs of a dysfunctional government in disarray. No matter how they try to sell this sow’s ear the reshuffle is not a refresh or a brilliant tactic, it’s the sign of a dysfunctional government in disarray desperately trying to save their broken leader.

131. stephentardrewDecember 23, 2014 at 8:01 am

     Beezlebub has started his reign of terror.

     Social Services scraps funding for homeless and housing groups

     http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/social-services-scraps-funding-for-homeless-and-housing-groups-20141222-12cf67.html

132. CommonADecember 23, 2014 at 9:42 am

     stephentardrew, From Financial Counselling Australia:
     “FCA’s role is to support the financial counselling profession, providing a voice in national debates. We also advocate on behalf of the clients of financial counsellors for a fairer marketplace that will prevent financial problems in the first place.”

     It would appear their main (only?) role was to be a sort of union for financial counsellors and advocate the government on their behalf. I support the government not funding “community” groups to lobby the government for more money… there are much better ways for the government to obtain useful information than to fund a group that then needs to advocate for something to justify their own existence.

     The Highlands Community Group seems to be very community minded and helpful… but they list generous support from the local council and NSW government (not federal funding??). Again one of their roles was advocacy, perhaps this is what the federal money was funding, if so I support that cut too, otherwise I would have thought it money well spent… but it’s hard to tell from this side of the internet.

     “National Shelter, a peak advocacy group”… need I go on???

     I’m reading through the http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/Senate/committee/clac_ctte/income_inequality/report.pdf commissioned by and delivered through this government… from my initial readings it would appear it supports much of what is generally advocated for on this site. Perhaps under this government there is less of a need for “advocacy” groups in order for the needs of the people to be heard and acted upon… I guess only time will tell.

133. Möbius EckoDecember 23, 2014 at 9:50 am

     Yet CommonA they are not cutting one cent from big business advocacy groups. Is this yet again another case of if you are wealthy and/or donate/support the Liberal party you will receive public funding but if you are poor bad luck?

134. LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 10:01 am

     Just when you think the Christians couldn’t get any nastier. Merry Christmas to the homeless. At least Muslim radicals are honest about their hatred of others.

135. CommonADecember 23, 2014 at 10:12 am

     Mobius, I support cutting all funding to industry advocacy groups too (as in ones that only lobby the government, not encourage industry, or seek to support them in new markets etc), such groups should be big enough to stand on their own feet… I tried to find some examples, but I’m obviously not looking in the right places, perhaps you could list two or three for me?… (and no, I don’t count tax-deductible donations as government funding) thanks.

136. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 23, 2014 at 10:14 am

     CommonA,

     nobody wants wasted taxpayer dollars!

     Have you and your cohorts considered Micro-Finance and Micro-Credit schemes? These schems can be provided and supported directly from government for the funding of small, grassroots enterprises of people, who are the unemployed or under-employed and who want meaningful, paid employment for the long term.

     We all know the LNP Degenerates are out of their depth, especially Morrisscum, because of his pathological desire for blood, not positive solutions.

     If any sane individuals amongst you think about it, getting ready, willing and able un/under-employed people into their own enterprises is a Win-Win for everyone: the individual, their family, the community, the taxpayer, the government with a less administrative role over time.

     Yes, it will cost (oh dear! hush my mouth!) dollars but it will MAKE money for people and in turn the economy. This is classic grassroots economy stimulation.

     Words of caution: Don’t think you can get away with a few, ineffectual, temporary replacement dollars like NEIS is to Newstart.

     Any substantial micro-financing GRANTS (MFG) and/or micro-credit LOANS (MCL) must be effective, accessible to all applicants, affordable.

     For example, if a MFG, as it is not repayable, it needs to be $10,000 over and above Newstart for a year or longer, if justifiable.

     If a MCL, it is repayable with low interest applied, but it can be $10,000-$20,000 and again, over and above Newstart, so the recipient has an effective period to get up and running.

     I’m sure limited-vision neocons will attempt to find holes in both my grassroot financing proposals. I invite that discussion.

     I also invite like-minded advocates who see promise in direct supply funding more directly to the grassroots recipients not necessarily via welfare bodies and certainly not JSA’s.

     First positive would be reduced administration which means more $ in the funding pool for the recipients and in turn the economy. I repeat it’s a Win-Win for all Australians.

137. LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 10:25 am

     Julian Burnside isn’t pulling any punches.

     http://www.smh.com.au/comment/scott-morrisons-calculated-cruelty-is-his-legacy-20141222-12c05g.html

     “Among other things, he said: “I turn now to the most significant influences on my life – my family and my faith. Family is the stuff of life and there is nothing more precious … For me, faith is personal, but the implications are social – as personal and social responsibility are at the heart of the Christian message …”

     He drew on the example of William Wilberforce (the great English anti-slavery campaigner). He quoted Desmond Tutu as saying: “we expect Christians … to be those who stand up for the truth, to stand up for justice, to stand on the side of the poor and the hungry, the homeless and the naked” and was inspired to add: “These are my principles.”

     It is lucky he identified his principles so clearly, because no one would be able to discover them by watching his behaviour as immigration minister.”

138. diannaartDecember 23, 2014 at 10:26 am

     Micro-Finance and Micro-Credit schemes are excellent ways to side-step the middle-man. Direct finance right where it is needed – works in welfare and would be an ideal approach to the development of sustainable energy generation – placing control of the technology into the hands of the users.

     Which means that these schemes must be stopped by any means – fair or foul (mostly foul). The people least likely to benefit are the extremely wealthy (unless they are of that rare breed – the philanthropist) and, of course, big business.

     People who believe that they are contributing their share to the community by purchasing luxury cars etc, will not understand the concept at all.

139. CommonADecember 23, 2014 at 10:41 am

     Jennifer, great post… love it. More like it please. Yes I would support anything that would encourage/enable people to make their own way in life. Unfortunately, for me that includes some tough love for those who refuse to work at all. I had an acquaintance who did receive advice, funding etc (from government) to start their own enterprise… I don’t know how it turned out as we lost touch, but at the time I thought it was a great idea for them and the community.

140. LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 10:59 am

     “Unfortunately, for me that includes some tough love for those who refuse to work at all.”

     CommonA, you just don’t get it, do you? No one here is in favour of supporting those who are able to work but refuse to do so.

141. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 23, 2014 at 11:06 am

     @Lee Thanks for the link to Julian Burnside’s article in SMH.

142. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 23, 2014 at 11:22 am

     @CommonA

     Thanks for your positive response and preparedness for discussion.

     I wonder if the government support your friend received was NEIS? Some people think NEIS is good and in some ways it is because it provides business advice to people wanting to start up their businesses.

     The BIG downside is that the funding REPLACES Newstart funding, which is pretty counter-intuitive if you think about it because if people on Newstart can’t afford to house and feed themselves now on the below poverty line of Newstart, how can they be expected to start up a business and get it functioning in an effective income producing capacity for the recipient in the paltry 12 months allowed by NEIS?

     I blame myself for not making it abundantly clear in my earlier post. I wanted to emphasise that both the Micro-Finance and Micro-Credit schemes that I’m proposing would be OVER and ABOVE their Newstart, Disability Pension or other welfare safety net that the person is on. Obviously my intention is that this is withdrawn over time in incremental stages, while the recipient is growing their enterprise and becoming realistically self-functioning and with a liveable self-employment income derived from their enterprise.

     I go further. It is Not only a promising proposal for individual enterprising people who want to get out of the withering waste of un/under-employment. It is a fantastic Win for other people: young, not so young and old, who are still withering BECAUSE they can derive employment from those growing practices borne of these schemes.

     Even neocons should find this sexy because a person with a chance will be able to provide another with a chance.

     Positive Entrepreneurism, I name it.

143. CommonADecember 23, 2014 at 11:24 am

     Lee, thanks for that… I did suspect we shared that common ground… to me one difficulty is in how you define, detect, or discern who is in which category (slack, or in genuine need)… In my opinion it is impossible to legislate morality, and impossible to administer these things without a bureaucracy (rules), hence the conflict and difficulty in “getting it right”. The other difficulty is in how best to encourage the slack, which we have been discussing. We will obviously differ in the approaches taken to the common aim, but at least we have a better understanding of why one side thinks the other is silly for not supporting the measures taken (after all we do have a common goal).

     ie, the boat refugees. Neither side wishes them to die, both sides want them to be safe. (suspend your disbelief for a second)… The lessons of Italy are enlightening… open the boarders, more people come, and more people die. On one side you have “but it’s inhumane to refuse them entry”, on the other side you have “but it’s callous to just accept a percentage of deaths in the attempt” (eg http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-refugee-crisis-in-the-mediterranean-is-a-story-of-death-and-desperation-20141031-11eu3y.html). If you ask me, you only have two options. 1 – close the boarders to stop the dangerous journey, or 2 – send a safe method of transport to pick them up…. in reality you must do both, and any half way measure is dishonest. To do the job properly, you must fund and supply a safe place as close to the source as possible for people to flee to, then process and accept as many as you can handle as quickly as you can. Now the government has achieved point 1, feel free to push as hard as you like for point 2.

     Oh and on a side note, the majority of those people are not fleeing from those horrible bigoted Christians I keep hearing about.

144. Möbius EckoDecember 23, 2014 at 11:27 am

     CommonA do you know the percentage of those out there who can get work but refuse to as compared to those who want to work but can’t get it?

     Do you know the percentage of jobs available to those who want to work but can’t get it, now made worse by this government’s relaxing of 457 visas?

     Are the advocacy groups you mentioned, in a report commissioned by this government that I wouldn’t give credence to, just government lobbyist or do they perform roles and assistance in their fields, which is why they might be funded? Those advocacy groups that perform support and assistance save government money as these are roles government would normally undertake. It seems with this government they not only want to chop the disadvantaged, disabled, pensioners, unemployed etc. off at the knees but they want to remove all support, including non-government, off at the knees as well, all the while subsidising big business and middle to upper class welfare to the tune of billions, something they want to increase.

     As to those business advocacy groups that are funded directly or indirectly by government, just get the list of those who attend Hockey’s dinners and those who fly with Abbott around the world, also look at those who are members of the IPA, BCA etc.

145. LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 1:12 pm

     ” to me one difficulty is in how you define, detect, or discern who is in which category (slack, or in genuine need)…”

     A job guarantee will soon sort them out.

     “Oh and on a side note, the majority of those people are not fleeing from those horrible bigoted Christians I keep hearing about.”

     The Jews wouldn’t be having problems in the Middle East now if it weren’t for their need to flee the Christians in Germany! Christian nations have been responsible for inserting the Jews into Israel. None of them wanted to give up their own ground for the Jews but it’s ok for the Muslims to move over and find themselves completely surrounded by people who want them out. Someone showed me a video of Brigitte Gabriel the other day, having a go at Muslims. She’s a Maronite Christian – those people who carried out the Sabra and Shatila massacres. The Muslims had to flee the Christians in Bosnia in the early 1990s. Ninety percent of those doing the killing in Rwanda in 1994 were Christians too. A little more recent – it is the opinion of some very knowledgeable people of Middle Eastern matters that the Saudis are behind ISIS. The monarchy is allegedly feeling a little uncomfortable about the moves towards democracy in neighbouring nations and so they are seeking to destroy it. Good Christian nations have stepped up to support the Saudis. That’s hardly surprising given the US’ history of supporting terrorism. http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

146. CommonADecember 23, 2014 at 3:31 pm

     Lee, I obviously should have left the last line out of my post. It seems to have distracted from the rest of it.

     I accept your premise, even though I fail to see how someone following Jesus could do such things. I will note however that in almost all cases, the Christians suffered too:

     “During Hitler’s dictatorship, more than 6,000 clergymen, on the charge of treasonable activity, were imprisoned or executed.[31] The same measures were taken in the occupied territories; in French Lorraine, the Nazis forbade religious youth movements, parish meetings, scout meetings, and church assets were taken. Church schools were closed, and teachers in religious institutes were dismissed. The episcopal seminary was closed, and the SA and SS desecrated churches, religious statutes and pictures. 300 clergy were expelled from the Lorraine region, monks and nuns were deported or forced to renounce their vows.[32]” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany)… but yes, most Germans identified as Christian.

     “Though religious factors were not prominent (the event was ethnically motivated), in its 1999 report Human Rights Watch faulted a number of religious authorities in Rwanda, including Roman Catholic, Anglican, and other Protestants for failing to condemn the genocide directly – though that accusation was belied over time.[229] Some in its religious hierarchy have been brought to trial for their participation by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda and convicted.[228] Bishop Misago was accused of corruption and complicity in the genocide, but he was cleared of all charges in 2000.[230] Many other Catholic and Protestant clergy, however, gave their lives to protect Tutsis from slaughter.[229] Some members of the clergy participated in the massacres. In 2006, Father Athanase Seromba was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda for his role in the massacre of 2,000 Tutsis. The court heard that Seromba lured the Tutsis to the church, where they believed they would find refuge. When they arrived, he ordered bulldozers to crush the refugees within and Hutu militias to kill any survivors.[231][232]”. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide)… and again yes, most Rwandans identified as Christian…. and the Church had a history of meddling that helped to create the conditions in the first place.

     The bit I take heart from is the “Many other Catholic and Protestant clergy, however, gave their lives to protect Tutsis from slaughter”… that is the Christianity I know.

     I was going to provide a link to the list of refugees by country or origin sorted by count, but noticed Afghanistan topped the list and have to admit there has been much meddling by “Christian” nations there too. Once again proving your point that “Christians” are not faultless.

     I am not a big fan of the USA, I think they do have much to answer for, to me they feel like Rome in it’s declining years, and I constantly hope that we do not follow their path.

147. LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 4:00 pm

     CommonA, did you read the part about the genocide in Rwanda where most killings took place within or adjacent to churches? That people who shared the same pews in church were killing each other? It was a tribal war but 90% of the murderers were Christian.

     Did you also read where Hitler performed his ethnic cleansing in the name of Christianity?

     Christians have no right to claim the moral high ground. Over the centuries they’ve done plenty of killing of their own. Now in Australia we have Christians supporting Christians in cruelty towards asylum seekers, the poor and the disabled.

148. CommonADecember 23, 2014 at 4:03 pm

     Yes, I read those parts too.

149. stephentardrewDecember 23, 2014 at 4:14 pm

     Spot on Lee.

150. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 23, 2014 at 4:16 pm

     Lee, would it surprise you to know that I believe in Jesus Christ?

     I don’t adhere to fanatical Christianity, but I do share a humanitarian approach to Christianity.

     Like everything, there are Christians and then there are Christians.

151. LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 4:32 pm

     “I would be appalled if anybody blamed me for the wrongs committed by cruel, alleged Christians inside and outside Australia.”

     Jennifer, I’m sure a lot of Christians who are currently judging all Muslims as the same would also be appalled if the situation were reversed.

152. stephentardrewDecember 23, 2014 at 4:35 pm

     Jennifer:

     I don’t think any of us want to criticize honest and decent people from any religion as the measure is a moral one not ideological. Disagree yes however all religions carry a load of unsavoury baggage that needs to be open to criticism. It’s not personal unless you are a cruel and vindictive ideologue.

153. Jennifer Meyer-SmithDecember 23, 2014 at 6:20 pm

     I accept your viewpoint stephentardrew. Nobody should tolerate unethical, immoral, cruel ideologues, who put their beliefs and agendas above the rights and needs of other people whatever their culture or beliefs.

     At the same time, I am very concerned by generalised prejudice against whole classifications of people and I don’t like people being targeted because they dare state their beliefs.

154. Kaye LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 6:39 pm

     Jennifer,

     I always respect your opinion and I will fight for the right of all individuals to believe as they wish. I have problems with the focus on worship which seems to be even more important than humanitarian deeds. The hypocrisy of the church’s wealth whilst crying for governments (read us) to address poverty is also somewhat galling.

     I think we should stop classifying people because everyone’s individual beliefs and motivations are their own. That is my problem with organised religion, somewhat similar to my problem with political parties.

     The problems start when people try to impose their beliefs on others or refuse to respect people’s different beliefs. Religions and atheists are both guilty of this.

     A tip to Jehovah’s Witness followers – making people come to the door on a weekend and then be polite because you have dragged your children along with you is no way to win friends. You are more likely to get a debate about evolution and the fossil record from me.

155. CommonADecember 23, 2014 at 10:08 pm

     Kaye, I come from a church that feed the poor (here), support the community, provide for children in the Phillipines and PNG to be clothed and go to school, send support to Ukraine and South Africa. We recently received some government funding (first of) to set up temporary accommodation for those in crisis. We are not rich, but we do what we can.

     A lot of the charitable organisations we take for granted were started by Godly minded people (Christians)… The media will not tell you all the good that Christians do. We are cannon fodder. Laughing stock (and used to it). And if ever something can be pinned on Christianity (even if the link is tenuous, or the logic twisted), then it is. I know why many people “refuse” to appear on media interviews – because they request that the interview be un-edited, and that is denied, so they “refuse”… damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

156. LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 10:55 pm

     “The media will not tell you all the good that Christians do. We are cannon fodder. ”

     Guess what? The media doesn’t tell us what good is done by Muslims either. Muslims give alms to the poor.

     “More than three in 10 Muslims, Catholics and Jews donated money during 2012, ICM Research found.
     Followers of Islam gave an average of $567 compared to Jewish givers who donated around $412, according to the survey of just over 4,000 people in the U.K.
     Christians gave considerably less. Protestants donated an average of $308, while Roman Catholics gave around $272, the poll found. Atheists averaged just $177.”

     Muslims give more money to charity. Not for humanity but for heaven.

     And before you start about only giving to get into heaven, Muslims are not alone. I have no idea what the requirement is for Muslims but the Christian tithe is supposed to be 10% of their income. This atheist gives considerably more to charity each year than the average quoted here for Muslims. I don’t do it for a reward and I don’t claim a tax deduction. There are some well known atheist big donors to charities too, eg. Bill Gates.

157. Kaye LeeDecember 23, 2014 at 10:59 pm

     CommonA,

     I thank you for your contribution to our society. The church can be a gathering place for fair-minded people to congregate to do good works.

     Some in my family are very religious, others not so, but we all share a common belief about the necessity of doing what we can to help others.

158. Karin PeagamAugust 24, 2016 at 8:57 pm

     ahahahaha Well done. I was visualising an episode of Clarke & Dawe as I read it.