Fighting from the Left

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kerriAugust 31, 2016 at 6:04 pm

Well said Jennifer Meyer-Smith!
Have always enjoyed your comments and agree with the points you make here.
Steve Laing - makeourvoiceheard.comAugust 31, 2016 at 6:13 pm

I totally agree. The LNP recognise that divide and conquer is a highly effective strategy, so will take every opportunity to spread fear and lies wherever possible. Labor too often leans towards the “establishment” for my liking (e.g. no call for Federal ICAC or changes to expenses rules etc, happy to defund ARENA whilst proclaiming to be Climate Change champions, or the Nauru/Manus travesty), but I would never preference a rightwing party over them, so they still largely receive my support with qualification.

But in recognition of my qualified support, I would ask that some Labor recognise that minds are like parachutes. They work best when open.
jimAugust 31, 2016 at 6:37 pm

That’s why a Shorten Labor Government will:

Ensure that at least 50% of the nation’s electricity is sourced from renewable energy by 2030;

Expand the investment mandate of the Clean Energy Finance Corporation;

Provide $206.6m to ARENA to support a specific Concentrated Solar Thermal funding round;

Establish a Community Power Network and Regional Hubs at a cost of $98.7m over four years; and

Ensure the Commonwealth Government leads by example as a direct purchaser of renewable energy.

The Liberal Government has done everything in its power to try and destroy Australia’s share in one of the world’s fastest growing industries with devastating consequences for our country. In the last two years more than 2 million renewable energy jobs were added to the global economy, but over the same period 2,900 jobs were lost in Australia.

In 2014, clean energy investment grew in China (32 per cent), the US (8 per cent), Japan (12 per cent), Germany (3 per cent) and the UK (3 per cent). But over the same period, investment in large scale renewables dropped by 88 per cent in Australia– from over $2 billion to around $240 million.

A strong renewable energy sector will be at the centre of Labor’s response to the challenges of climate change. With the right policies the renewable energy sector also provides immense opportunities: it will drive jobs creation, drive manufacturing investment and put downward pressure on power prices for families and small businesses…..
read more at’…….http://www.laborsclimatechangeactionplan.org.au/?_ga=1.144250931.705290645.1472447226
diannaartAugust 31, 2016 at 6:44 pm

Well said Jennifer.

The 2019 election (or sooner), should be an easy win for Labor given the dysfunction of the Turnbull government. Should be easy, unless Labor continues on the path of neo-economics. If we can get over this failed system and move onto a people based economy we stand a chance.

Together Labor, the Greens, and other progressives can start extending moves of goodwill towards East Timor with regard to the boundary in the East Timor Sea. Establish a bridge to Indonesia with the guarantee of assistance with refugees. Retrieve and honour the onus of responsibility foisted upon Papua New Guinea and Nauru by repatriating refugees to Australia. Prepare for walking a difficult path between the USA and China – we are going to need the goodwill of both nations.

A lot of this means putting aside grievances.
Carol TaylorAugust 31, 2016 at 6:48 pm

Well said Jennifer. I think one of the challenges for the Left is how to draw a halt to the demonisation of vulnerable people, whether it be asylum seekers or welfare recipients, pensioners. The all too eager msm happily plays along with the illusions of ‘economic’ refugees, pensioners swanning around in their million dollar ‘palaces’ (it still has an outdoor dunny and a gas heater in the kitchen).

As far as a Labor/Green alliance, I would love to see it, and a return to the informal ladies/gentleman’s agreement that we had in Bob Brown’s day. I think that this requires the will of the current crop of Greens (no pun intended 🙂 ) who I believe made some strategical errors last election eg targeting Anthony Albanese instead of targeting the LNP, thereby p’ssing off quite a few Labor supporters.
paulwalterAugust 31, 2016 at 7:00 pm

I.find it incomprehensible that the Labor hierarchy would be so closed off from the mainstream that they would not feel some affinity as to the Greens, Xenophon and other rational politicians.

In turn, the other groupings could admit to Labor’s experience with the inner workings of politics…maybe against the forces of the right, change is harder than we might realise.
FreethinkerAugust 31, 2016 at 7:11 pm

Jennifer, in many points, I guess the majority we are in “the same page”
Among the ones that I guess we are not in the same page it is the optimism that the ALP will change the immature political attitude and form a coalition or alliance with the Greens and minor progressive parties.

IMHO there are politicians and party members that believe that by being in the party even if they are minority it is the only hope to change things. There are others that by greed to keep their safe seat are prepared to “go with the flow” a leave their principles as a second priority.
The only hope it is for those that are not in the above category to leave the party and join forces with the other parties and independent progressive politicians. That will be a true alliance a Broad Front
Remember when I mentioned to you the Frente Amplio? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Front_(Uruguay)
DisablednDesperateAugust 31, 2016 at 7:19 pm

I have never understood why the ALP and Greens don’t cooperate more but I feel the right of the party has the power right now.
I would love to see allegiances with smaller players but they mostly seem more Right than Left leaning.
SO FRAugust 31, 2016 at 7:44 pm

Labor isn’t Left. Shorten himself acknowledged that Labor offers “sensible leadership from the centre” in a doorstop tour of Queanbeyan in 2014. In fact, Labor’s trajectory matches that of other “worker’s Parties, which have long since abandoned their historically Leftist principles.

If you want to create a Left Alliance, the first thing to do is stop allowing neoliberal ALP to co-opt, direct, and ultimately undermine the movement. At some point this will entail the end of ALP-R as the dominant Labor faction, or the departure of the entire ALP-L from the Party and into its own identity/alliance with other Left groups. From there, we can go forward.

But please, for God’s sake, stop acting like the Labor Party in its current form has any role to play in meaningful Left politics. People still cling to the fever dream that Labor is a Leftist political entity, and pieces like this do little except reinforce that delusion. We need to move beyond this if we are to get anywhere.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithAugust 31, 2016 at 7:57 pm

Thanks all,

for the feedback thus far.

kerri, you make me blush.

Steve Laing, I totally agree that the LNP does not need any assistance in bringing about regressive and draconian measures to undermine our standard of living more. So Labor should not allow itself to be cast as their ‘partners in crime’.

jim, your examples demonstrate the power of Labor when it seeks good solutions. We allies on the Left, want to encourage Labor to keep up that good work and extend it into other social justice and socio-economic reforms.

diannaart, thanks for identifying the other essential part of the necessary reforms and structural change and that is defeating neoliberalism which works against all in the bottom levels of the economic pyramid. As we force change away from rampant and repressive neoliberalism, globalisation and free trade, it stands to reason, smaller nations like East Timor, Papua New Guinea and Nauru can operate without Australia’s over-reach into their geographic rights just as Australia can strive to forge alliances with China and America without selling our interests out, as Robb has attempted to do with ChAFTA and TPP.

Carol, I agree there have been some obvious wrong or ill-timed strategical moves conducted by the Greens. Better discourse between the Greens and Labor should see less of the adverse publicity demonstrated in heated competition for Albanese’s and Feeney’s seats. But that works both ways and Labor should not expect it has automatic self-entitlement to traditional seats because the demographics are changing.

paulwalter, true; it is inconceivable that Labor would not see the public perception and electoral benefits of forming alliances with the Greens and the Nick Xenophon Party etc. To deny this recognition looks ill-advised and self-defeating.

Freethinker, I understand your misgivings because it takes compromise and parties and their participants are likely more interested in their own self-preservation than seeing or following the Big Picture. But that does not mean, we don’t expect them to widen their horizons, if they want our support. I do remember your reference to Frente Amplio. I will look further into it thanks.

DisablednDesperate, I agree but I think self-preservation may work the other way too.
stove_pipeAugust 31, 2016 at 8:29 pm

Shorten is an IPA plant. He’s best mates with the head of the beast. I like your article, and I think it’s in everyone’s interests to get the LNP out of parliament.
cornlegendAugust 31, 2016 at 9:01 pm

For ages now all I ever read in a section of the comments is “Lib/Lab flip flop”, “couldn’t vote Labor” included Labor for convenience etc etc, and the ultimate is ALWAYS, Labor must do a deal with the Greens to stay “relevant”
It always gets back to the Greens, and lets face it, a few of you here would never vote Labor but see no other way of getting the Greens a bit of clout.
It isn’t Labors sole objective to please the few percent who claim themselves as “progressives” and appease the Greens.
Labor is a broad based party made up of the whole spectrum from Left, to Right.
It isn’t there sole purpose in life to appease a small percentage, but to develop policy that will appeal to the broad spectrum of political opinion in the country.
The Greens should have learnt by decades of narrow focus that 10% seems their zenith.
The fact that generally to win government, Labor needs to appeal to the majority of Australians and have the policy, programmes and structure that will appeal to broad base, which is in the centre of politics.
Lets face it, some calling on Labor to change wouldn’t vote for them no matter what.
Labor is out there fighting the good fight, developing policy, getting direction from the Unions, rank and file, branches State and Federal conferences etc.
It will develop policy to appeal to everyday ordinary Australians, and it is they who will make a judgement call come election time, not some “progressives” online.
There is no need for Labor to form Alliances with other parties.
Let each party stand before the electorate on their own platforms and allow the people to judge.
If, when various parties get MPs elected, let them vote on issues independently without “alliances” but on individual issues.
I don’t see too many ALP members calling out for “alliances” , more the other camp.
Maybe they need to look internally as to why they are stuck in the rut they are in.
Labor will and is continually evaluating its policy and process and I see no reason whatsoever in alliances.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithAugust 31, 2016 at 9:23 pm

SO FR, exactly! Labor is not Left now – and that’s why we need to pull together for the sake of all grassroots Australians to pull Labor Left again, so we gain social justice and socio-economic structural reforms. Simple fact for the short term is we need their numbers and despite what they say, they need our numbers too!

stove_pipe, thanks! You GOT my equal primary concern and that is to pull together whatever way we can and beat the filthy LNP out of government without delay! My other equal primary concern is to reverse this stinking neoliberalist system that the dinosaur duopoly have happily clung to for four or more decades.

cornlegend, thanks for the response. Labor’s attempts at trying to be something for everybody is not quite working. Would you apply that same logic to Pauline Hanson’s bigoted followers? Usually, important advances need standards that are above compromise.
Bighead1883August 31, 2016 at 9:25 pm

cornlegend August 31, 2016 at 9:01 pm

Cornie,for JM-S this is a revelation indeed,Greens are not perfect

I would have no problem with Jennifer fighting to help rectify her chosen political party from deviances that aligned followers to begin with

Many of us Labor stalwarts have fought to return the party to it`s more union left aligned base and I really respect those who`ve fought hard in the face of insurmountable odds

The MSM branded Rudd as some monster when he was the first since Whitlam to call for a return to Labor leftist roots and move back from centre-right

I don`t care what people say to me about my thoughts on this because I know right from wrong and will not deviate

AS you know I even had Kevin Rudd contact me on this Cornie and as far as I`m concerned if JM-S wishes to support the Greens that`s her beeswax and I`ll respect her for that,but I`ll never respect double standards as you full well know
HarquebusAugust 31, 2016 at 9:47 pm

With the fairly good chance of Labor winning the house of reps. at the next federal election and governing in their own right, I would be surprised to see them enter into an alliance of some kind at this time.
The Liberal/National friendship/alliance thingy has worked out alright for them though.
Well done Jennifer. Keep up the good fight.
Cheers.
cornlegendAugust 31, 2016 at 9:53 pm

Jennifer,
” for the sake of all grassroots Australians to pull Labor Left again,”
WHY ?
obviously, it is not what the bulk of Australians want .
Frankly, I don’t know why you obsess over what the “Lib/Lab flip flop mob” are doing.
Would your time not be better spent worrying where your mob went so dismally wrong again and let the ALP& its members work out the direction in which they want to head, and how they’ll get there.
The whole thing about the system {good or bad} is that there are a whole range of political parties out there.
Pick one of your choosing and join and support them.
Let Labor get on with their business.
Better still, form a party Jennifer, show them how it’s done 😀
Give the public one more choice
Jennifer Meyer-SmithAugust 31, 2016 at 10:11 pm

cornlegend, yet again a disingenuous response considering you know and we know, we need each other to pull forward the majority of the community who can help support institutional change.

Dare I say it but I think even Bighead gets that for once!

Thanks Harquebus, but I’m not just leaving it to the bully boys (not necessarily Cornlegend and Bighead) to tell the rest of us how to do politics.
Bighead1883August 31, 2016 at 10:17 pm

Do you know what I like so much JM-S?
How the Greens showed how to do it in the NT election
randalstellaAugust 31, 2016 at 10:20 pm

Sam Dastyari
Labor powerbroker. Big mouth. Greens-basher. Compromised. Fool.
How many more of these suckers do Labor have?
What the hell did he think they would pay his expenses for? Because they like him?
A mere $1600, and the moral equivalence soup of Liberal and Labor is stirred again.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithAugust 31, 2016 at 11:02 pm

Attention Bighead and randalstella,

this article is intended to bring an ALLiance together on the Left.

Bighead’s comment appears right on the surface about the NT which is in stark contrast to a rudimentary representation of more populated areas around Australia. However, Bighead, being a like-minded Twitter follower, I presume you witnessed the NT anti-fracking communties? That suggests a certain allegiance to environmental principles which is undeniably a Greens forte. So my point is, maybe the Greens are not so obvious there yet but it’s a work in progress and it’s only a short matter of time before the Greens will be seen to be more prominent in NT politics.

randalstella, Dastyari made a big blue by allowing his Chinese hosts to pay for his travelling expenses. Labor’s been attempting to back out of this debacle all day. However, don’t let’s muddy the waters too much with Sam’s silly mistake and instead target that odious Andrew Robb more for his free trade deals signed off with China (ChAFTA) and then his post-parliamentary position with the Chinese firm. This should be the focus of a combined ALLiance so that such abuse of power will never be allowed to happen again. If Robb were a stockbroker, he’d be charged with ‘insider trading’.
ElleAugust 31, 2016 at 11:13 pm

Fighting from the left….

Labor Senate leader Penny Wong flagged the opposition’s intent on the banks motion and it enjoys the support of independents Jacqui Lambie and the Nick Xenophon team, the quartet of One Nation senators as well as the Greens over the matter – which potentially delivers the votes needed to pass the motion.

^ Re Banking Royal Commission

Smiles – working together as a collaborating force for reformist, socio-economic justice AND environmental change.

It’s nice when political parties aren’t making playground (self interest) pot shots at each other and getting on with it. (or did they and I missed it ? grrr hope they didn’t)

Yes for obvious reasons Lambie, Xenophon and One Nation aren’t exactly left like Labor etc.

It does NOT matter whether there was a silent alliance behind closed doors here. Or if there wasn’t one at all.

The point is Australians are sick and tired of the crap. The pot shots should FOR fighting the tories, not each other.
Heck we aren’t even saying one of them has to phone the other the following morning…. 😛 gee
(though flowers would be nice lol).. JOKE!
ElleAugust 31, 2016 at 11:13 pm

The crossbench senators also have amendments planned of their own, including widening the motion so that it calls for an inquiry into political donations by the banks.
ElleAugust 31, 2016 at 11:16 pm

Take That! > Opposition Leader Bill Shorten, continuing the theme he had carried through the election campaign, labelled Mr Turnbull the “lunchtime warrior who gives Westpac a lecture” while arguing for the motion to be passed in the lower house, claiming that “you get the sense here that the government will do anything and everything, say anything and everything to avoid a royal commission into banks”.
ElleAugust 31, 2016 at 11:37 pm

Speaking of FTA

LEGISLATION PROPOSED FOR INTRODUCTION IN THE 2016 SPRING SITTINGS

IMMIGRATION AND BORDER PROTECTION

Customs Amendment (Trans-Pacific Partnership Implementation) Bill *
Customs Tariff Amendment (Trans-Pacific Partnership Implementation) Bill *

– amend the Customs Act 1901 and the Customs Tariff Act 1995 to implement the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP)

Reason for legislation: to enable the implementation of the TPP
https://www.dpmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/2016_Spring_Public_List-Introduction%28FINAL%29.pdf

hmmm Hillary Clinton (Democrat/left) has said NO to the TPP (though we know she doesn’t really mean that lol)
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 12:11 am

Labor Needs to:
[Make friends with the Greens. Yes, the Greens have faults too and I agree there have been some obvious mistakes in recent months with the Senate changes and recent years with Climate Action.]

Why? Yes, I agree that the Greens have made many mistakes. ETS/Carbon tax debacle, Senate Reforms, removing the debt ceiling, increase fuel excise tax, opposing the Malaysia solution etc,. etc., etc., Labor has implemented every single positive reform (with the exception of Gun Control) this country has ever had. Not the Greens – Labor. Labor thought of all of these reforms without the help of the Greens.

Please explain why it would benefit Labor to side with a protest party who 1. has no experience in Governing, 2. Have never had to make hard decisions trying to balance social and fiscal policies. Just because they may have a few things in common, it does not mean that Labor needs to compromise themselves, or disrespect their members by joining with the Greens. Policy is brought up through the grassroots of the party. It may be a slow cog sometimes, but as you said: Faults seem quite OK in this argument about the parties.

The Greens also hate miners and mining. The CFMEU represents workers in the mines. Miners are one of the biggest sections of the working class who have shed blood for their work rights. (See doco Blood on the coal for more info) and make up a large section of regional labour. Should Labor side with the Greens to put this section of the working class out of work and devastate regional economies turning them into ghost towns? Labor will take a balanced approach and phase out mining. The Greens will want mining gone all at once – due to their historical all or nothing approach.

[Make friends with disenchanted Labor supporters who may never come back to the fold of Labor but who will support in secondary and tertiary capacities while supporting further alternative political forces.]

Under Bill Shorten membership has surged in the last year. During the time of Newman in QLD, Labor Membership increased dramatically. Labor membership appeals to a broad base of people. If Labor is not the party for you. It is not the party for you. Please explain why Labor should change to appeal to the section of disgruntled ex-Labor voters? Should they just ignore the democratic vote on policy through conference to appease the ex-Labor voters who now hate Labor? The same voters who harp on about how right wing Labor are, when they haven’t closed their mouths for two minutes and opened their eyes to see the shift to the Left Labor has made under Shorten. The same voters who harp on about how nasty they are to Asylum seekers when there are more points in common with the Greens on Asylum seeker policy than the Liberals. The same voters who harp on incessantly about how the Greens should overthrow hard working, dedicated Labor member’s seats like Albo and Plibersek? These voters should just join the Greens and actually believe in the Greens, instead of pining for Labor instead. If you want to change Labor. Join them!

“Even make friends with sympathetic Micro alternative, progressive parties and Independents who would value-add to progressive, grassroots focused policies.”

“Make Friends?” What does that even mean? Labor would consider any Bill that aligns with their values. Do you have evidence that Labor takes a protest vote against other party’s agenda like the Greens do? I don’t think so. It really depends on what you mean by progressive, because there sure as hell weren’t that many on my Senate ticket and none of them got in anyway.

[Devise policies and improvements that include and promote vulnerable people. Obviously, I mean detainees in Nauru and those still trapped in isolation on Manus and other on-shore detention camps.]

This is proof of the point made above that even if you have read Labor’s asylum seeker policy, you have not comprehended it.

[Devise policies and improvements that include and promote vulnerable people on welfare whether they be single mums with school age kids, unemployed and under-employed people who don’t want to be subject to the devastation of lesser respect for their qualifications, expertise, experience and talents while stuck on Newstart.]

Once again, if you want these policies, join Labor and put them on the table. It is how Labor works. Labor caucus does not devise everything in a bubble.

To change policy you need to BE in Government. The hatred from the Greens supporters sure as hell goes to turning people off voting for Labor, so I guess until that stops and the Greens supporters stop bagging Labor like they are the worst party to ever vote for, then I guess it’s over to Mr. Turnoff and co.

There is not ONE party in Australia where members are satisfied with every single policy, stance, reform put forward. People join parties for many reasons and one is to provide serious input into that party. If the Greens are so great – join them! Just don’t expect Labor to hand over free representation to the Greens by an alliance and giving away seats that hardworking, dedicated, Labor MPs should be sitting in, just because you don’t want to be part of the process that shapes Labor. If the Greens are so good, they should be able to win more than one seat on their own.
paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 12:59 am

I only buy Trish Corry so far. Sad I have to say that, but Jennifer stills holds the floor.

JMS, they only want an alliance on their terms and those terms demonstrate a continued failure to grasp the correct relationship between enviro, a rational use value economy and politics derived of reason not greed.

Labor is no longer a broad church. The non conservative side of politics is an unharnessed entity.

Fine to mention Albo, but Albo represents something no longer the dominant voice with the ALP. The dominant mindset is represented in the form of Dastyari and it will mean therefore that nothing was learned from the first decade of the century.

Still, we will look forward over the coming week in being proved wrong. The bad aspects of Budget Repair will not be acceded to, as happened last year with Data retention/detention/censorship and the FTA’s.
paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 1:42 am

Signs of life at ALP headquarters?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/26/fixing-wealth-inequality-future-generations-will-think-us-mad-and-they-will-be-right?CMP=soc_567
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:37 am

I agree with paulwater.
Yes, Albo represents something no longer the dominant voice with the ALP and it is a shame that people like him prefer to stay in the party with the hope that they can change it.
This Coalition government it is one of the worse in Australia history and the ALP should have more than 52% approval in the polls and not to mention win the last election. It had not and this prove well their failure.
Trish, we have to congratulate the Greens for not approving the “Malaysia solution” a policy equal or even worse that the one in place. This policy is another proof that the moderate right in the ALP it is as bad as the few moderate right on the Coalition.
There few posters here that mention the Greens as the only option and my interpretation of Jennifer article and many previous posts for that matter it is that she not only like to see the Greens in the alliance but all those progressive politicians.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:01 am

The Greens supporting social media commentariat – always take every decision Labor does to the extreme. (ie argue that Labor just blindly accepts something to support the Libs. e.g. The Data retention policy had over 44 changes made to it before it was supported.)

I don’t think the problem is actually with Greens and Labor (as in the politicians who make the decisions). In fact, they seem to work fine together when it is needed (except when the Greens see a reason to protest against Labor for self-political gain and side with the Libs).

Poor DiNatale, in my view has tried to play bosom buddies with both sides to have a safe bet each way (He really, really, really wants a Ministry). The social media commentariat are always so busy finger pointing at Labor, that they can’t take a breath for a minute to see how the Greens have changed over the past few years.

No, I don’t think it is Labor and Greens who are the actual problem. I think the problem is the social media commentariat, who on the side of the Greens have a huge superiority complex, which causes a LOT divisiveness. They never seek to understand why Labor has made a certain decision – they just scream “Labor are right wing neo-cons who are destroying the Left!” Which is so far from the truth it is ridiculous. I don’t agree with every decision Labor makes, but at least I attempt to understand WHY they made that decision.

It is easy to feel superior when the party you back has never had to compromise and make serious tough decisions, to balance fiscal, environmental and social policy and Govern for every single sector of the nation. Until that day comes for the Greens, they and their supporters should maybe start looking at the fingers that are also pointing back towards them.

There are some really great people in The Left and frankly the notion that we are a dying breed (I am a member of The Left) is frankly a ridiculous comment. I don’t think any of my articles could be considered “right wing”

I’m pretty sure by last count The Left is now the dominant faction. This is because people stay and fight hard for the Left, they don’t sit behind a keyboard and whinge how crap Labor are and how great the Greens are.

Albo is often seen as a champion of the Left in Labor by the Greens social media commentariat.

Albo fights Tories – it is what he does. It is a pity that the Greens supporting social media commentariat does not.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:05 am

Freethinker:
Yes, Albo represents something no longer the dominant voice with the ALP and it is a shame that people like him prefer to stay in the party with the hope that they can change it.

If you ever get a chance, say that to Albo’s face, video it and upload it. I’d love to see his response!
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:09 am

Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:05 am
Freethinker:
Yes, Albo represents something no longer the dominant voice with the ALP and it is a shame that people like him prefer to stay in the party with the hope that they can change it.

If you ever get a chance, say that to Albo’s face, video it and upload it. I’d love to see his response! End Of Quote

What!, are you suggesting that he stay in the party just because he has a secure seat or because greed?
I do not think so, if he is there it is because he thinks that he can change things.
What will be your opinion?
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:15 am

I’m suggesting he does what he damn well pleases!!!! (Not sure how you got that weird interpretation from what I said……)

I’d just LOVE to see you face to face ask him that question.

If you want to put forth arguments how Labor has moved away from the Left in the last three years. I’ll put forth arguments they have moved to the Left. We could see how that pans out.
townsvilleblogSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:49 am

Jennifer/Trish/Carol TaylorAugust 31, 2016 at 6:48 pm I agree with most of what you all say, including Steve Liang, however from a Left/Progressive point of view, JMS, you have asked us to express how we believe the Left can gain traction immediately, so with that in mind, I offer this:
Democratization of all State Branches and the encouragement thereafter of leadership ballots on a one vote, one value situation for State/Federal parliamentary leaderships and also State executives. This will encourage more intellectual property into the party, and offer the new/old membership ‘real’ democracy, as they would receive if they had joined the local cricket/volleyball club, abolish the current ‘gerrymander’ held by the AWU/SDA alliance. Be the ‘first’ political party in Australia to do so.

Then establish via on line survey, the individual strengths of the membership and their newly democratized ideas to establish new policy ideas such as forcing the corporations to pay a fair share of tax ( let’s face facts, 10% of something is far better than 100% of nothing).

The ALP in Queensland is fundamentally a centre-right wing party controlled by the ‘alliance’ at a time that the people need a true centre-LEFT party who can relate to “people”. I have just filled in a questionnaire as part of a story in yesterday’s Guardian on line, only to discover that there is nobody in the federal parliament who represents who I am. A male, between 35 and 64, who is heterosexual, and has no religion, who was not of Indigenous heritage, who had been educated to high school standards.

This is because right wing union stooges like former ‘Senator Bulloch’ from West Australia get the nod from the party machines. If there is nobody in the federal parliament who reflects my working class history, how are those elected to the federal, or State parliaments for that matter ever going to know what I and my ilk need? Bloody impossible. So in summary the best thing the Labor Party could do for me Jennifer is to democratize and thereafter encourage new people to join or rejoin so that their humble opinions can be heard in new policy committees now connected by email or Skype and promise to tackle the worst areas of capitalist exploitation and provide better services for the “people.”
townsvilleblogSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:03 am

Perhaps it may help some in this forum to recall why the ALP was founded all those years ago. It was founded to fight the excesses of capitalism and to legislate for better working/living standards for ordinary Australians. In other words Left wing ideals, ideals of egalitarianism as practiced by our greatest ever PM. The Hon E.G.Whitlam Q.C.Labor’s last truly Labor PM. Then came the Hawke & Keating era of kissing the capitalist’s arses, and the party has always come up short ever since, even the 35,000 membership are much further to the Left than are their supposed parliamentary representatives, and there is a reason for that.

The party can win the next election whenever it is held, but my hopes go far beyond that, my hopes are that a democratized ALP with the ear of the ordinary Australian would hardly ever be ‘out of government.’
randalstellaSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:06 am

Jennifer,
Even in a less corrupted political sphere, alliances would not work, because they would fracture on matters of policy and priority.

But let’s deal with the realities of this Australian political sphere.

Two cognate things.
There will not be an alliance against the Libs-Nats Coalition.
It does not suit the ambitions of the other major Party, Labor. It does not suit their polices, and it does not suit their arrangements of power and for power.
As we can see by the emphasis displayed here by the less delusional hacks, the policy follows the ambition for power, not the other way round.
Not distinct from these factors, it would undermine the 2-Party domination of the contest for Government.
The very idea of a long-term alliance would have very powerful enemies. It would suit no Labor MP to gain such enemies. It would end their career. That is the brute reality.
That brute reality visits this site often enough.

The exposure of the Dastyari compromise is no small matter. It is no mere ‘mistake’. It shows the sort of enemies to any alliance, the entrenched interests behind keeping the major players for Government as they are.
Why would an educational institute be funding both major Parties? They are just one of many examples funding the duopoly. Follow the money, you find the powerful interests behind keeping the Lib-Lab contest the only relevant one for Government.
Do we have to ask why these interests would spend good money? If we do, the answer is: policy. They seek and gain preferment on policy.
The Dastyari exposure shows that these interests are not just corporations, including foreign corporations. It includes foreign Government interests.
This makes for an enormous backroom pressure on policy-making.

Consider the Adani mine. No Party seriously committed to environmental protections, and seriously fighting AGW, could support it. Who supports it? The two major Parties.

Now, there we have a very important motive for a single-issue informal coalition of MPs – to fight against such uncontrolled funding that systemically sabotages the democratic process of policy-making.
The question is who would be prepared to join such a temporary arrangement, to fight for real – not token – funding reform? Unfortunately the answers might turn out to be the same as for the alliance above.
But at least this issue has some leverage, some degree of conscious public concern.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 9:32 am

Townsvilleblog:The ALP in Queensland is fundamentally a centre-right wing party controlled by the ‘alliance’ at a time that the people need a true centre-LEFT party who can relate to “people”.

I think it is these sort of comments by people that continuously paint Labor in a negative anti-Leftist light. The truth is The LEFT in QLD have the majority of power and also the majority in the front bench. The comparison to Labor right to the Liberal right is also a point of confusion and should not be discussed as if they are one in the same. They are vastly different.

If the right (right wing commentators) in QLD are complaining about it (Lefty power!) then the left are doing something right.

Also….You seem to want to democratize the party for one vote one value, then on the other hand remind people why Labor was formed in the first place, but on the other hand you don’t think unions should have a say as a collective. I think that position needs a bit more thought, or an argument presented as to why unions should not have a collective vote.

Your comments about Labor reek of cynicism against old Labor. Perhaps a fresh look at Labor and a rethink might help you gain some perspective.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:47 am

Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:15 am
I’m suggesting he does what he damn well pleases!!!! (Not sure how you got that weird interpretation from what I said……)
I’d just LOVE to see you face to face ask him that question. End of Quote,

How do you want for me to interpreting your posts when I suggested that prefer to stay in the party with the hope that they can change it.?
Do you think that it is something wrong in believing that he can make changes? How you like that I could interpreting the other possibilities?

Your reply “I’m suggesting he does what he damn well pleases!!!! “is childish

Regarding your comment, quote: they don’t sit behind a keyboard and whinge how crap Labor are and how great the Greens are. End of quote.

I have been involved in the union movement and in the left side of politics for more than 54 years (perhaps you have not even born then)
This man behind the keyboard have put his freedom and possible his life for the causes that he believe. This man lost a lot of friends for that cause. This man lost material positions due to long strikes in support of the working class.
This man lost a lot and proud of it for the 35 hours campaign and other issues here in Australia.
And I can go on and on, so before made uneducated or not well informed comments engage your brain and learn without your chip in your shoulders.
Stopping comments that do not agree with your article ” The Taxed Nots. Who are they and what should we do with them?” will not helping you to learn and become humble.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 10:04 am

Oh what a shame I decided to turn off comments on my article, so people could just sit there and pay no respect to the people the article was actually about – The unemployed. How shameful!! Well I was ashamed to read the comments, to be honest, that people can be so insular in their own agenda of Labor bashing and pay absolutely no concern for the unemployed. I don’t think it is me who needs to learn to become humble, but some of the commentariat who use any article to progress their loudness about their hatred for Labor.

It was not the bashing of Labor that offended me so much, but that agenda overtaking the space in which conversations about the unemployed should have been had and which IMHO deserved attention.

Labor Obsessed – by Victoria Rollinson – The best article ever published on AIMN. Rings true every day, particularly on this site.

I don’t think I’ll be the first to turn off my comments nor will I be the last.

JMS is so obsessed with how crap Labor is, one of the comments in that thread (my thread) was to suggest I write an article of such a nature. She was told by AIMN to do it herself and so she has. Her arguments are idealistic and baseless at best. Pie in the sky with no substance.

I think you view that those in the left (including Albo) don’t change Labor is absolute rubbish. There is evidence to the contrary.

That is my stance.

My comments about keyboard warriors are directly pointed at JMS and the like who constantly bombard nearly every single post on AIMN about “How crap Labor is and how they need to change” regardless of the topic. I have no idea of any of your previous comments or what your stance is on anything. So I think you have taken me the wrong way. In saying that, there are many disgruntled Unionists who hate Labor – just look at “The Labor Coalition” and some general union Facebook pages. That doesn’t mean they represent everyone’s view either, including mine.

Regardless of anything we may disagree on. I have nothing but complete respect for anything you have done to fight for the rights of the worker. Nothing but complete respect.

Labor will be progressed by those who turn up. That’s the short of it.
townsvilleblogSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:07 am

Trish, I am complaining about the absense of Leftie-power in Queensland, the Premier is in the right wing (AWU/SDA alliance) and whilst it is difficult from minority government, I believe that the ordinary Queenslander would be upset having lost 1.5 million hectares since 2011 under Newman’s law and the Labor government should take this fact to an election, and hopefully win a good majority in the Queensland parliament. I am not deliberately painting Labor in a negative anti-Leftist light. I am responding to JM-S as to how I see the best way to unite the Left AGAINST THE TORIES. I must have missed any Left wing policy instituted by the Queensland Left wing government in the past 18 months, and am telling it as I see it. When I was in the ALP, I couldn’t see outside views as being helpful either, it seemed to me as though those ideas were an attack on my party, it was NOT until I got out that I was able to see clearly, and I did. I am not attacking but rather trying to help, if only you would see that I’m being a friend to the Labor Party, not a foe.

Trish, perhaps you are quite right a new stint may well change my cynical mind, but I cannot for the life of me see what a member of the ALP would complain about having a vote for the leadership instead of half (or worse) a vote, I remind people of why the party began, and that should still apply, even if we all have or most of us have a microwave now. The median Australian wage is a mere $43,000 per annum, not a lot to support a family with three children on. I think I’m confusing you Trish, if unions have a say I say it should be a collective say, not dominated by the current alliance, equal representation from every union.in the internal affairs of the party but equally from the collective vote of the membership, not as it is, split into two sections, one section containing 35,000 and another section of members containing 101 or how ever many politicians Labor has in parliament at any particular time.
townsvilleblogSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:11 am

When we had Sir Joh’s government in the 1970s (Trish you may be too young to remember) Wayne Goss campaigned for democracy to replace the gerrymander, Goss campaigned on a one vote, one value system, and won the election against ole’ Joh. Here we are all these years later and Labor refuses to give it’s own members what they had campaigned for all those years ago. It’s time the ALP modernized and came into the 21st century.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 10:15 am

Trish, I am complaining about the absense of Leftie-power in Queensland

Sorry that still is not making sense! The QLD Cabinet is tipped to the majority of the LEFT and I am pretty sure at last count the LEFT had majority at QLD Conference.

What you could to is possibly work harder at turning Townsville away from a predominantly right wing conservative town and hopefully that will filter down to Dawson and I’ll keep trying my best to spread the word against the Tories and those who hate the worker in Capricornia and have that filter up to Dawson. That way, hopefully George Christensen might implode or something. Sorry, but I do not understand how he keeps getting voted back in. His views are destructive and hateful. What on earth do people see in him? That is a bigger issue to me than should Labor and the Greens form an alliance?
wamSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:18 am

the JMS thought that the libs were going to lose power was as funny as the suggestion labor friends with the, once was diludbran loonies, but now they form the no longer shy diludbrankims!
Seems pretty obvious that ‘mutual benefit’ is not available between the men and women of labor and the boys club.
Loonies should come with something to seek and alliance but better labor look to themselves and remember to lead with the left scores two points a hit but it is usually the right that delivers the knockout punch. Albo early but shorten follow up will sink turnball.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:22 am

Trish, I think you miss the point of this discussion. It is an opportunity for those of us on the Left to come together to see how we can work for social and socio-economic change starting with the defeat of the LNP asap while reversing neoliberalism’s grip on all Australian systems.

I’m quite happy for you to call my advocacy idealistic but I’m not misguided. Although my vision for The ALLiance as a force to defeat the LNP and neoliberalism aims very high, that shows the emphasis for widening our expectations of what we want and feel entitled to have.

Good points were raised by Elle of where institutional change can start immediately. Thanks Elle for that. Labor, the Greens and other progressive forces can all take note.

Even though I take on board what Freethinker, paulwalter and randalstella say about Labor’s refusal to form alliances unless they happen under Labor’s terms, I advise you and your comrades to look beyond your short-sighted demands for the dinosaur duopoly to continue because it doesn’t provide the Australian people with optimum political representation. Others have cited how political donations have brought Australian politics to its knees and that has happened because of the divide and conquer approach of these forces over the duopoly. A wider and more diverse field of political parties would be less susceptible to this manipulation by outside donors.

And Trish, your Labor comrades can start by listening to townsvilleblog’s recommendations to democratise the inner elections of Labor, so that people like Louise Pratt and Lisa Singh don’t risk losing to dinosaurs in the future.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:23 am

Bloody hell, the comments make me think there are a breed of Nostradamas’s here,
Not in the party, take no involvement in the party yet able to adjudicate on who is “Left” who is ‘Right” , what factions people are in and there motives.
Albos reputation is as strong in the ALP as ever, and as for an earlier comment of declining membership, 10,000 have joined since Bill Shorten took the Leadership and a further 1200 , just since July 4th
townsvilleblogSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:24 am

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-interactive/2016/aug/31/are-you-reflected-in-the-new-parliament-diversity-survey-of-australian-politics?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Politics+AUS&utm_term=188390&subid=8269474&CMP=ema_792 Trish, I constantly write letters to the Editor’s of both the Townsville Bulletin and the Mackay Mercury arguing agaist tory (conservative) policy from Industrial Relations to the loss of 1.5 million hectares of Queensland bushland under the Newman LNP laws that allowed it. I have asked people in Dawson via their newspaper what they see in Christensen and they all say he’s a good bloke? if you visit my Townsvilleblog site you will see letters dating back. I have campaigned against the tories since 1995 when it looked to me as though Keating would lose the 1996 election, in fact a then staunch Leftie in Townsville referred to me as the ‘new Leftie letter writer’ perhaps the Left has changed their priorities as I’ve not seen anything from the Queensland govt in the past 18 months that I would classify as Left?
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 10:46 am

Jennifer. It reeks of hypocrisy for you to tell someone what they should be commenting about, does it not? You do not pay others the same respect. In fact, you insist on what the comments should be about.

Whilst that may be your intent, your arguments in your article are not strong enough to bring forth that intent for discussion. Maybe review what you have written and make different arguments.

Hear Hear! Corny, well said!

Jennifer, you also need to step back and analyse your own personal perspective. You automatically dismiss anyone who you know is aligned with Labor and cheer on and say how wonderful everyone is who does not align with Labor. That is not conducive to a conversation about alliances and how the left can work together.

As I said before, the problem is not with Labor and the Greens. They work together fine most times, when it matters. The problem is the divisiveness caused by the Greens aligned/Labor hating social media commentariat, who really do have a superiority complex in letting those who align with Labor know exactly how inferior they think they are. That is the problem. Not the parties themselves.

No formal alliance is required to progress, left progressive policy. If you think Labor and the Greens should join together, you have no idea about QLD Voters either. It would not be a positive for Labor, in regional mining communities and farming communities to side with the Greens as a formal aligned group.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:49 am

cornlegend, look it in the positive side, we are not all of us in the “same page” on the fine points but we are in the “same book” on the fundamental line of thoughts.
I guess that the points raised in many posts criticism about the ALP are constructive and many can take on board. Debating and listen to others points of views help all of us getting a better understanding of political issues.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:56 am

I’m off out for a few hours. I’ll read and respond to any more comments when I get back, which aim to add to the discussion instead of hijacking it to suit their own agenda.

I’m looking for ideas about positive changes needed in our current system that is failing many of us right now and why we need a strong alternative, inclusive, progressive government that will work for all of us and not just those with strong connections and/or representatives inside the dinosaur duopoly.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:07 am

Freethinker
When a lot of the heresay,rumour and innuendo of the inner workings of the ALP somehow emerge as “fact” it is a little disconcerting.
Having known Albo from the days of a staffer for Tom Uren, I can assure you,he knows what he is doing and his left credentials intact.
Anthony has never varied from his “I fight Tories” {and the occasional Green} position and I can’t see it happening anytime soon
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:17 am

Jennifer Meyer-Smith
positive changes,
As all the parties are registered and have a Constitution, let them get on with their own aims and objectives and forget about alliances.
If an issue arises they can support or reject that as per their party platform and policy.
If an issue comes before the Parliament let them vote on their policy.
At times all parties in Opposition my agree, at other times not.
There is absolutely no need for any formal “Alliances”
The chance now with the 4 Independents/1 Green to make a name for themselves in Parliamentt and get some exposure is ideal.
In the HOR, Labor cannot prevent anything LNP, even if they got the 5’s support {which is unlikely anyhow}
It is a good opportunity for people to see just what Sharkie, McGowan really do stand for
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:20 am

cornlegend, if my posts have been interpreted as if I put in doubt the integrity of Albo then allow me to correct that.
My point was, that IMO Albo and other members of the left in the ALP will be able to contribute better for the left cause in Australia outside of the ALP as the party it is now.
I have said that ” it is a shame that people like him prefer to stay in the party with the hope that they can change it.”
My point of view can be right or wrong and Albo position it is legitimate and I respect it.
I hope that I am wrong, that my pessimism about how it is heading the ALP it is wrong and that in the near future the left faction will stand stronger within the party to not compromise their ideals.
As it is now, how I see it the party is more moderate right that moderate left.
diannaartSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:27 am

Some terrific commentary here.

As , Townsvilleblog made clear, it is not “Labor Bashing” to point out the neo-liberal element – especially in Queensland. Labor supporters need to be informed the direction their party takes.

Nor is calling for a progressive alliance a “Labor V Greens” thing, although Corn Legend, Bighead and Trish Corry want to play that game.

Why?

It is not helping anyone with progressive hopes.

Nor is it working towards ousting the LNP stranglehold, all that is achieved is further alienation of the left from the Labor party.

Labor may well win the next election, if they continue with the just barely left-friendly promises and the Turnbull government continues to lurch between far right to centre right. Such a win would not be a validation of Labor promises, any more than the Turnbull government has won a mandate on all its promises.

One comment regarding progressives and mining – although I realise Trish will read this as Greens and mining… progressive thinking people want an end to COAL mining and far greater regulation of fracking. No one mentioned stopping all mining, just that we no longer need to mine for coal – we now have alternative energy , but we do need to look at the damage we cause when we mine and use the best methods to mitigate any damage.

At present there are greater numbers of far-right representatives in the senate than in left (especially if one is wary of the X-Team), so moving towards a more progressive check on the HoR got a little more difficult. Which is why all who believe in a democracy instead of an oligarchy, an oligarchy which is supported by both LNP and Labor business policies need to unite as Jennifer’s article clearly explains. Both have a sense of entitlement that is detrimental to the well-being of ordinary Australians. Dastyari being the latest example of presumed entitlements – couldn’t cough up the $1600 out of his own pocket? That really does reek and Bernardi has been milking this in a show of hypocrisy that will, unfortunately, be lost on the electorate.

As much as I would like to see the left of Labor leave its stinking right, I cannot see that happening any time soon – however, continued pressure by the rest of us can and will make a difference.
randalstellaSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:33 am

How many of the Labor Party are actively interested in the funding issue?
I mean – besides the ‘move on, move on’ anxiety over Dastyari.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:37 am

diannaartSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:27 am

Well said, I share your views.
diannaartSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:51 am

Good to know, Freethinker.

🙂
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 12:03 pm

randalstella – Me. It needs reform now. It just makes everyone look dodgy, even if they may not be – it still makes them look dodgy.

Something needs to be done with the donations system. Yes, money needs to be raised by parties for elections to get their platforms out to inform voters. The populist parties may win seats on a small budget – but are short lived and a usually geographically concentrated. They don’t need to worry about ensuring an informed vote for the entire country.

I have no answers. All I have on this is to hear what others have to say. It is a complicated issue. Playing tit for tat of who has done what isn’t helpful. Public servants have a very strict code of conduct. This should extend to politicians.

My only insistence is that voters are ensured of an informed vote. If there is not enough money for parties after donations reform that voters don’t hear equally from the party’s esp the major parties who will form Govt – then that is not acceptable.
jimhazSeptember 1, 2016 at 12:13 pm

[that voters don’t hear equally from the party’s esp the major parties who will form Govt – then that is not acceptable]

10,000 30 second TV ads tell the public nothing – we dont need this sort of ad at all. Just cap the election expenditure so that the ads they do place tell the public something. Also cap electoral office expenses – I have received too many propaganda letters from the local pollies that say nothing except self-promotion.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 12:21 pm

Dianna
[As much as I would like to see the left of Labor leave its stinking right, I cannot see that happening any time soon – however, continued pressure by the rest of us can and will make a difference.]

This is a good example of what Corny just described as misinformation presented as fact. Labor is not beholden to any right wing conservative/neo-con/neo-lib force. Try at least to even understand what right wing as a faction actually means.

[ however, continued pressure by the rest of us can and will make a difference.]
What an elitist attitude. Perhaps respect those who actually turn up. They are the real people putting in actual hard work and applying the pressure for Labor to shape how they see it and it is doing just fine thanks!

They are the ones who shape Labor. Not the “I’m so much more left than you”, keyboard warriors. Who are you to tell members of a party what they should and shouldn’t do? When you are not even part of that fight? When you don’t bother to turn up?

If other parties are so much better than Labor – focus on them. Push them, adore them, join them. Just don’t blame Labor because these oh so great parties can’t even win seats! Labor is a bloody great party and the only party who are for the people. Millions of people disagree with you. Millions.

Wouldn’t it be great if all this energy was focused on the actual enemy of the people – the LNP?

Once again, the problem isn’t the left aligned parties themselves, but the elitist “I’m-more-left-than-Labor” keyboard warriors. This vocal group are the ones who make it harder for Labor to hold power and remove the conservatives. They don’t make it easier. Labor shouldn’t have to waste energy fighting from both sides.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 12:42 pm

Diannaart.
““Labor V Greens” thing, although Corn Legend, Bighead and Trish Corry want to play that game. ”
As I have pointed out time and again, it is just not us 3 .
Labor have made it clear they don’t want alliances. deals, coalitions etc but it seems some have selective hearing,
If the ALP don’t want it, why should outsiders try and foist it upon them?
Chris Bowen, made the reality clear in a recent interview on Radio National.

“We are not interested in any Coalition agreements with any party,” he said. “I wrote about this in my book in 2013; Labor governs alone or not at all. Who parties vote for in a confidence vote is up to them. If there is a confidence vote after the election, and independents and other parties have to choose who to support, that’s a matter for them. We will not be entering into any agreements, coalitions or deals with the Greens or anybody else.”

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten has explicitly ruled out forming a coalition government with the Greens
Adam Bandt raised it , but got shut down by Bill
The Greens aren’t running serious in any seat against the Liberal Party so this is an argument where they try to say to Labor voters you can have your cake and eat it to, you can vote for us and really it’s a vote for Labor. It’s absolutely not.”

“But Mr Shorten, who is campaigning in far-north Queensland, said Mr Bandt was “dreaming”.
“Labor will fight this election to form its own government and to form a government in our own right,”
“Labor will not be going into coalition with any party.”
Ms Plibersek says Australians would be “horrified by the idea of another hung parliament’’ as she rebuffed the Greens’ advances.
Ms Plibersek said Labor was “playing to win’’
“We will not enter into a coalition:”Anthony Albanese
Adam Bandt was there again today on Sky News attacking me, he’s got a bit of an unhealthy obsession I think, he can’t seem to do an interview without mentioning me,’ Mr Albanese said.

‘The Greens aren’t in a position to be a threat to anything,’ he said. ‘They have one member of the House of Representatives, where government is formed, the same number as the Katter Australia Party.’
Opposition legal affairs spokesman Mark Dreyfus repeated Labor’s policy … that we will not form a coalition with the Greens, full stop,”
Tony Burke “We certainly would not be forming any sort of coalition agreement with the Greens,”‘ Mr Burke told ABC radio.

Throw in all the Labor State Premiers, Tassie rank and file, many more ALP MPS and Senators, and moves happening by other rank and file in other states and territories to emulate the Tassie R&F
SO,
What does it take to get you to understand?
It seems selective hearing is rampant
It ain’t happening
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 12:59 pm

Trish
[As much as I would like to see the left of Labor leave its stinking right, I cannot see that happening any time soon }
and so it shouldn’t.
Labor has, Left, Right. unaligned and a bunch of other factions ,all under the one umbrella .
At times there are policies {and politicians within Labor that I don’t like} but the diversity of the factions within is a reflection of society.
Labor are there to win the hearts and minds of the ordinary everyday voter with policy.
To split the Factions and form some sort of breakaway would decimate the Party.
By taking a narrow base, like “Left” or “Right” you are inevitably shrinking your voter base.
The Greens have shown that with 30 odd years of bobbing around the 7% to 10% mark
Labor benefits from its diversity.
It may get it wrong at times but IMHO it is way better than any of the alternatives that realistically have a chance at forming government.
For the life of me, I can’t figure how the “progressives” and Greens apologists dan spend so much time wanting alliances with Labor who they forever bag, and wouldn’t vote for anyway.
They spend inordinate amounts of time on it.
Why worry about what you don’t vote for. worry why your lot can’t cut it.
I would never vote LNP, Hanson, Green, Xenophon etc and I sure as hell don’t lose any sleep over it,
Get over it, get out there and support your lot.
If an issue arises in Parliament vote your Party way.
You don’t need alliances to vote yes or no on issues
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 1:14 pm

cornlegend I agree with you in what you have said, quote: For the life of me, I can’t figure how the “progressives” and Greens apologists dan spend so much time wanting alliances with Labor who they forever bag, and wouldn’t vote for anyway. end of quote.
If you read my first reply to Jennifer you will see that I cannot see an alliance or coalition between the Greens and the ALP.

What I cannot understand it is why some ALP followers or members for that matter get so upset or react in a negative way to criticisms to their party when they are very happy to critics Malcolm Turnbull leadership and his government.
Are these ALP supporters do not realize that the coalition supporters can say to them that the electorate have voted for the Government and also have increased the extreme right members in the senate?
Can they not say that if the coalition it is that bad, then how bad it is the ALP and the Greens for not being able to win the election or at the very least absolute majority in the senate?
Can not they said that before critic Malcolm Turnbull leadership, they should look at the polls and see who is a preferred leader?
Would not be better for the ALP and the supporters to look into their issues before have an opinion about the Coalition?
Yes, in the same way that all of you react about critics of your party the Coalition supporters have the legitimate right to react against your opinion about them.
Have to be very arrogant to not accepting that.
Just a thought based on a reality.
trishcorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 1:20 pm

“The party I vote for, has no real power in parliament and they hardly win any seats. I don’t like that; So I’ll throw a tantrum, talk down to Labor members, make my point of how crap Labor are at every opportunity, until everyone agrees Labor should look like the party I vote for and until Labor decides to become the party I vote for. It is about what makes me comfortable. Stuff the people who actually show up!”

That sums up this article and the majority of comments advocating a Greens – Labor Alliance here. Not one argument presented on how this is beneficial, or who it will benefit. If the benefits of an alliance are so great – someone would be pointing out what they are – with conviction. Not just taking stabs at the against side, they would be bringing better arguments to the table.

Approx 20-30%% of Greens votes preference the Liberals, historically (figures for this election are not out yet). The notion that the Greens appeal to the purist form of social and economic leftism is simply not true.
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 1:37 pm

trishcorry September 1, 2016 at 1:20 pm

Lucky you didn`t mention how the Greens did in the NT election otherwise you`d be moderated out Trish
Karl YoungSeptember 1, 2016 at 1:40 pm

Don’t be too tough on Labor Trish. Tony Abbott, Alan Jones and Co, Murdoch Press did irreparable damage to Labor’s brand especially during the Rudd Gillard years. The stupid gullible general public swallowed it all.
JaquixSeptember 1, 2016 at 1:53 pm

I watched the TV show on SBS “Insight” this week with a panel/audience/participants who had obviously all voted for the minor parties. It was striking how many claiming to be long term Lib voters, had switched to Pauline Hanson or Nick Xenophon. None of them had switched to Labor. Now there are probably a lot of reasons for this, one being that they’ve been subject to 50+ years worth of Labor Party bashing by the media. Not so much snob value, etc. I was amazed at several who quite sincerely felt that Pauline was genuine, and only cared about Australia, cared about them etc etc. I was heartened that many had voted for Nick – as a far better alternative for a swinging voter. The best participant spoke up and said she thought “Pauline is the most toxic thing to happen to Australia…” She was a community worker and politically aware. In the NT recently, Labor did pick up about 7.5% swing, but even more went to Independents who were disillusioned CLP. So clearly they need to work on several fronts, to ensure a resounding success next elections. Agree that they need to be on better terms with the Greens, somehow. That battling for the same seats is counter-productive. Look at the Libs, even they know its not in their interests to stand where the Nats are standing.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 2:13 pm

Freethinker
I have been quite open that the “ALLiance” had a snowflakes hope in hell of happening, right from when Jennifer Meyer Smith first contemplated it a year or whatever ago.
I even offered Jennifer help.
She was to go to Canberra during sittings and I was going to be there about the dame time, and from memory offered to buy Jennifer lunch and introduce her around.
{With the clear understanding, that although I did not support her, I wouldn’t hinder her in any way .}
Jennifer was unable to travel to Canberra so I offered that if she was to write her thoughts and proposals I would get them delivered
Again no more then delivery, no comment for or against, just deliver a constituents letter.
Then a commenter to Jennifer to stop,don’t trust me , it was a plot, he/she would divulge all in due course
Jennifer bought it.
The alleged sinister plot was never divulged.
Then the “Alliance” began to evolve as a JMS Alliance , with MPs in and out on a whim, some Left acceptable, some not, some Right Independents in one day, out the next
And the bloody wheels fell off and it is still a JMS thought bubble
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 2:28 pm

Freethinker,
” the Coalition supporters have the legitimate right to react against your opinion about them.”
I have never denied that, in fact I copped a serve when I argued that regardless of view, {in Hansons case, and others} if they convinced enough people and were able to gain representation then that was democracy working.
Now, I don’t support Hanson in any way, but three quarters of a million or thereabouts do, so are entitled to a voice.
“Can they not say that if the coalition it is that bad, then how bad it is the ALP and the Greens for not being able to win the election or at the very least absolute majority in the senate?”
I don’t disagree, I think that is a legitimate argument.
Freethinker, I went into the last election openly admitting Labor could not win {on the then numbers} and would loose by about 8 seats.It didn’t stop me going full bore working for change .
I have continually said that, as much as I don’t like it, Malcolm can claim a mandate as he won.
I don’t see the H.O.R being on a “knife edge” as Turnbull has his majority and will be able to call on Independent support most times [based on previous voting}
Labor have work to do, but they are getting on with the job of representation and policy development.
.
I suggest it might be an idea if the “progressive” Micros, Indies etc spent more time on why they failed worse than Labor did
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 2:37 pm

cornlegend, it was clear in this election that those small progressive parties and candidates are not interested in forming an alliance or coalition.
They claimed, and we have not reason not to believe on it, that some of them have very similar polices and visions ( Australian Progressive Party, The Science Party, The Arts Party and few more in the Alliance for Progress) but just perhaps ego or greed they were unable to form one united party.
This shows clear that there is not political maturity yet to form an alliance and not one can expect that the ALP or the Greens will form a coalition with a group of parties that cannot work together.
It seems to me that not one of those parties in the Alliance for Progress like to give in or surrender possible leadership for the benefit of their claimed vision.
Pauline and Nick were able to do a better job than them.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 2:54 pm

Freethinker,
A hypothetical.
What would the Greens give up to form an Alliance with Labor?
diannaartSeptember 1, 2016 at 3:17 pm

I agree how unlikely there will be any alliance between Labor and other progressives – which may or may not include the Greens, because Labor doesn’t want to – Trish and Biggie and Cornie have told us so.

As Jennifer has stated many times, and yours truly also – this is not about Labor V Greens. This is about working together in time for the next election. Labor doesn’t have to play and for that matter, neither do the Greens. We don’t have to depend upon a 2 party system.

As for Cornies question asking what the Green would give up….I haven’t any idea… how about you ask the Greens? – just Google their email, Cornie…
… and BTW, Quid Pro Quo, what would Labor give up to work with the Greens -subsidised mining? voting against Adani? Or is it too late for that one?
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 3:30 pm

cornlegend September 1, 2016 at 2:54 pm
Freethinker,
A hypothetical.
What would the Greens give up to form an Alliance with Labor?

Looking from outside I guess that the refugee policy will be one to affect a possible coalition but IMHO ego and political maturity is the major factor.
Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that the ALP rejected a Royal Commission into Australia’s detention centres including Manus Island and Nauru. This is another big difference between both parties.

Cornlegend, I was an ALP supporter when Gough was the leader and also I was an active union member.
I voted for Bob to remove Fraser from power (that IMO, base in my experience OS it was something like what happens in Brasil now)
After 1987 all changed, unions went quite and lost power to not upset the ALP government, Bob and Paul introduced neoliberal policies,
I lost faith on them and from then on just voted for independents or the Greens just caring for environmental issues hoping to leave a better world for my grand children.
Perhaps, one day (I hope) the left will gain control in the ALP and a leader like Albo will be the one to vote.

The Greens and Bob left are not the same, I do not like the present leader, to me he is like Nick Xenophon ( a shot to the air) and they will be better off with Scott at the helm.
paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 3:42 pm

Corn legend: “Workers of the world unite”- the only thing Labor would lose would be its politicians swollen sense of their own significance.

Labor would lose NOTHING if it were to revert to being Labor, ít would gain from a clear conscience and brighter outlook, apart from losing some deliberately silly ideas about the relationship between enviro, economics and a healthy polity and a troubling dependency on long lunches with developers.

The one error the Greens committed was going too hard on Labor over refugees, they should have realised refugee policy is more complex than that in a place like this that operates on emotion in a information vacuum. On this issue, Labor would help itself if it backed off not taking the refugees still in detention centres under our control (despite what Dutton and the other liars say about our res[ponsibilities).

Diannart nailed it well enough in mentioning Adani and you could rapidly think on as to forestry and water policy as well as gas fracking.

THIS is where the conflict lies and it because some politicians cant back away from the sleazy behind the scenes machinations that go with development politics.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 3:48 pm

“and BTW, Quid Pro Quo, what would Labor give up to work with the Greens ”
Nothing,
it ain’t happening
Greens need to learn to stand on their own two feet and figure out what to do, if ever they will get past the 10%er also rans
Why is it just Biggy Trish and I?
Why do you consistently ignore what the ALP are saying
I did provide some comments September 1, 2016 at 12:42 pm
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 4:05 pm

diannaart
NOT me, Bighead or Trish,
Bill Shorten
“Mr Shorten was asked to clarify why he was willing to 100 per cent rule out a deal with the Greens but would not do similar for other independents, saying only: “That isn’t what I said.”
When he signed an “oath” in ink in May not to team up with the Greens, Mr Shorten said: “Labor will not be going into coalition with any party.”
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 4:24 pm

cornlegend September 1, 2016 at 4:05 pm

Ah Cornie,we beat the Labor drum which says to all and sundry “No Coalition” “No Deal” as you clearly state {this is what the Leadership wants and we are just messengers]

Labor is trying to fend off Austerity Policies which are being brought down hard since September 8 2013
The complete fire sale of what`s left of our commonwealth
The sale of our Health System our Education System and the killing off of CSIRO
The renewables industry and the RET
Our pensions and social services are being eroded to support corporate graft

One would think this defending of our hard won rights would be priority for those of a progressive nature,but apparently not
trishcorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 4:26 pm

paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 3:42 pm
The one error the Greens committed was going too hard on Labor over refugees, they should have realised refugee policy is more complex than that in a place like this that operates on emotion in a information vacuum. On this issue, Labor would help itself if it backed off not taking the refugees still in detention centres under our control (despite what Dutton and the other liars say about our res[ponsibilities).

Spot on. Over simplifying this issue gives no help to anyone in detention. Labor has a decent policy (but it could still be improved). The communication on this policy is dismal. The majority of people think Labor and Liberal are the same on this, but in fact they are worlds apart, and have more in common with the Greens in this policy area than they do with the Libs. Protest parties don’t help anyone and neither do parties who treat refugees as less than human. This whole policy area affects every single Australian and what we are prepared to accept.

paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 3:42 pm
[Diannart nailed it well enough in mentioning Adani and you could rapidly think on as to forestry and water policy as well as gas fracking.]

Completely disagree. Wiping out mining too quickly would devastate the economy of many regional areas and turn them into ghost towns. An idealistic approach cannot be taken on this. A planned incremental phasing out-replacement approach is the only way. If any party kills mining before having other industries to replace them to take up the expired workforce, they would be incompetent and not fit to lead.

I think another reason an alliance would not work with the Greens is thy prefer an all or nothing approach to a compromise approach or a balanced approach. Labor and Greens may share a few of the same values, but their approach to policy and policy impementation appears to be very different.
trishcorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 4:29 pm

Cornlegend – September 1, 2016 at 4:05 pm
diannaart – NOT me, Bighead or Trish,
Bill Shorten

Corny – don’t you know that if you are a member of Labor you know exactly what the leadership are thinking, talking about and doing. Ask the anti-Labor commentariat here on AIMN. Apparently, there is some invisible force that shuts out my own thoughts, totally controls me, blinds me to rational objective opinion, turns me into a blind sheep (and sometimes even a psychopath!) and I am forced to write what Labor tells me to write about!

I wonder if the Libs will fund CSIRO to investigate this phenomenon? (them not me!)
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 4:40 pm

I knew you were going to say that Trish
George Wright is spilling all the beans before he departs
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 5:09 pm

Labor has had years to plan how we can transition our economy away from dirty coal and destructive mining, forestry and fishing practices. If there’d been better leadership in recent decades, we wouldn’t be facing the further deterioration of the Great Barrier Reef with the threat of the Adani mine which the Palaszczuk Government is happy to promote.

The ALLiance concept has been formed based on a desire to find the reason why disenfranchised or disenchanted voters can feel encouraged to vote for reform. If the wider community sees Labor and the Greens plus other alternative and largely progressive forces negotiating, I maintain this would encourage greater support in the community for something other than the LNP.

Had this dialogue been witnessed before the last election, I maintain it would have made the difference between a measly one seat loss and a many seat gain. It also would have meant that Labor and the Greens could have sensibly negotiated not to compete for the same seats and to target together more of the Liberal seats, or marginal seats. Anna Burke’s seat could have been winnable also. Thought of that, naysayers?
paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 5:27 pm

Trish Corry, we are not talking about wiping out mining, but having it and other extractive industries operative within or under processes that admit the science first.

I am sorry you appear to feel that everyone who questions Labor’s bona fides is Judas Incarnate… that seems oddly pathological.
diannaartSeptember 1, 2016 at 5:29 pm

Yes, Cornie, I know Bill Shorten said that there would be no deals with the Greens – this is politics we are taking about, “no deals” one day become “bring it on” the next.

For the umpteenth time, no one is out to stop all mining – just coal – we have the technology, the expertise and the ability to continue to invest in renewables, we don’t even use the coal we are digging up now – we sell it and we see very little “trickle down” by way of profits from the coal mining sector. Labor supporting the Adani mine which has ripple effect on the viability of the Great Barrier Reef, is, reprehensible.

Also, a united front of progressives only need 15% of the overall vote to make a big difference in the senate and we should be looking very carefully at the HoR.

If needs must, we can not bother with either Labor or the Greens…. although life would be just a little easier. But no, Cornie says Labor can do it all by itself – which is very libertarian of him, how nice. This, “we don’t need anyone” culture is quite the trend in Labor right now. I pity the environmentally aware left faction.
trishcorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 5:48 pm

Labor has had years to plan how we can transition our economy away from dirty coal and destructive mining, forestry and fishing practices.

Ummmm they do have a transitional approach (once again, why do you think you are such an expert on Labor and Labor policies when you clearly do not spend the time to even understand anything about them? Are you scared of the colour red? Is it a phobia thing? Because it certainly isn’t because you have any clue to what you are talking about.)

Please discuss how the Greens just want to shut it all down and the effects of that? They recently called on NSW to shut down all mining.

Is there an economist in the house who could explain the impacts of such a huge section of regional QLD’s workforce being out of work and the flow on effects to other industries including small business? The effects on housing and the effects on how the Govt would see us as suitable candidates for infrastructure dollars if we exist as a network of ghost towns? Do you give a damn about people in regional Queensland? I guess not!

Labor’s policy on RET specifically states: Rather than attacking industries and closing them down, Labor’s strategy involves growing industries and creating more jobs whilst fostering a cleaner environment. This requires a long term vision and an understanding of the changes needed to secure Australia’s prosperity in the future.

Compared to: Shut it down!

Huge difference. The problem with the Greens is they don’t take into account the effects on all of the areas. They think the inner city Melbourne approach fits all. Well it does not!

Whilst you are harping on about Adani and getting all upset about Labor’s pathetic commitment to the Environment. I’ll give you this food for thought: According to Yale, the Labor party of Australia are the 3rd best major political party on earth when it comes to the environment, according to the UN’s millennial targets.

In one year – we dropped to 57 out of 58 under the Liberals. You seriously are wasting energy bashing the wrong party!

Are you also aware that Labor has an entire arm called LEAN? Labor Environmental Action Network?

You are dreaming if you think the majority of voters would have voted MORE in favour of Labor if they formed an alliance with the Greens. This is fantastical thinking.

Anna Burkes old seat had stuff all to do with the absence of an alliance, but a lot to do with the CFA dispute. The hatred the Greens spread about Labor in Melbourne – may also have had something to do with that.

You just keep on insisting this alliance is the way forward, but you have put zero substance behind it. Its like screaming you want a lolly but don’t understand why.
diannaartSeptember 1, 2016 at 5:54 pm

The Greens do speak to all progressives, they do not dictate policy to other progressives, if you want argue with the Greens then do it on the Greens blog site.

…and please stop using terms like “ummmm” or claims that we don’t know what we are talking about – unless you have actual proof.
paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:02 pm

No point, diannaart, she is just not reading our posts.

Trish Corry, we have both said we are not anti development, just development that can create monumental socially encumbered costs down the line when the environment has its productive capacity neutered by short termism and massive clean ups have to be initiated.

I do not think that foreign business interests precede the existential needs of communities to the point that the latter get polluted out of existence because no one tried to get corporations to lift their game on the non profit/social responsibility aspects of their ventures.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:10 pm

Trish before you ask others about if they are aware of the LEAN plan by the ALP, informe yourself about the Greens plan. It is not good to trying to put others down like if are ignorant in the subject when you also write nonsense abouth the Greens.
The Greens plan it is not simple ” Shut it Down” it is about replacing thet by technology manufactured, administrated and in same cases developed in site.
Instead of writing post in a negative way about the Greens and complain why other people criticize the ALP, come with a review in what can be done by your party to perform better that the last election.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 6:12 pm

[Trish Corry, I am sorry you appear to feel that everyone who questions Labor’s bona fides is Judas Incarnate… that seems oddly pathological.]

Oh go have a cup of tea with harking-in-his-own-lunchbox. You two should be friends. According to him, I’m a deranged psychopath. If I had a dollar every time someone called me a name or implied some derogatory remark, I would have quite a heavy money tin by now.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:14 pm

I hope that you come back with some positive views in how to improve the party and not play a victim when things are not going in your way.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 6:16 pm

paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:02 pm Edit
No point, diannaart, she is just not reading our posts.

No of course. I’m psychic and that is how I must be able to comment.

Good to see the happy hate club is growing in numbers. It is getting beyond pathetic. Your little group on AIMN do not represent the voices of many people in the Greens, nor do you voices represent the many people who are disgruntled with Labor.

If the Greens are so great, do the work Labor has already done, so you can win seats in your own right against the Liberals, instead of harping on about incessantly about how crap Labor is. Let the people who show up within Labor worry about that.
paulwalterSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:18 pm

Thanks Freethinker. It is one of her more suspect ploys.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:19 pm

Regarding the Greens Natural Resources Policy, just in case that someone cannot find them in their internet home page, I am copy and paste them so it can be see that there are no plans to just shut down the mines.

The Australian Greens want:

A robust economy built on diverse sectors and not reliant on any one sector for its prosperity.
A mining and mineral exploration sector that meets stringent environmental protection standards and delivers both long and short term benefits to the wider Australian community.
A requirement that all mining activity be subject to rights, desires and needs of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
Legislation that recognises that mining is incompatible with all other land uses and therefore needs to be rigorously assessed before being approved.
Accurate and independent environmental, health and social impact assessments addressing the true environmental, social and economic costs and benefits, rigorously applied and implemented on all mining proposals and projects.
Rigorous independent ongoing monitoring and compliance with undertakings and legal obligations of all mining projects including during the rehabilitation phase.
The prohibition of mineral exploration and mining including the extraction of petroleum and gas, in residential areas, good quality agricultural land and terrestrial and marine nature conservation reserves, national parks, wilderness areas and other areas of high nature conservation value.
No new coal seam, shale or tight gas, shale oil or underground coal gasification developments, given the short and long term risks to our water, land, communities, the climate, food production and marine areas.
The prohibition of both new coal mines and the expansion of existing mines.
The cessation of all existing underground coal gasification projects.
Ongoing independent research and monitoring of existing coal seam gas, shale and tight gas projects, especially those which involve fracking, to ensure they are not causing significant damage to aquifers, and withdrawal of approval of those projects if damage is occurring.
To strengthen rights for landholders regarding access, negotiation, appeal and compensation rights in all their dealings with mining and resources companies.
The inclusion in all new mining proposals of a fully costed and funded allocation for the restoration and rehabilitation of the impacted areas to world’s best practice standards, verified by open and transparent means.
Prohibition on the exploration for, and mining and export of, uranium.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:23 pm

diannaart.
Geez, I dunno how this is getting lost in translation :-{
” But no, Cornie says Labor can do it all by itself”
Nu.όχι,ne,non,没有,pa gen okenn, No,
Cornie said that “Bill said and Tanya said, and Albo said, and Mark said, and the other Mark said and Jay said, and Annastacia said, and Dan said and Bob and Joan from Tassie rank and file said, and Tony said, and ……”

BUT, if you continue to insist I told them all to do it, I will have to wear that 😀
or ,,, blame Trish and Bighead 😀
pa gen okenn ?
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 6:30 pm

September 1, 2016 at 6:14 pm Edit
I hope that you come back with some positive views in how to improve the party and not play a victim when things are not going in your way.

Oh Jesus! This is turning into a comedy.

So nothing from the happy hate group about what could be improved in the Greens? Once again, the onus is all on Labor and the Greens – Perfecto!

Labor Obsessed – search for it on here and read it.

and really? I should write in a more positive way? The mob rule on this site by a certain group of people, encourages nothing but negativity, harsh accusations, sick twisted inboxes and other crap towards me. Give me a break!

I have received “What is wrong with those nasty people on that blog” or similar more times than I can remember. and “Why do you even bother with them?” More times than I can remember or “You have more patience than me” More times than I can remember.

Not everyone comments, but they do read. If you think I’m negative, many others view the nasty little hate group on AIMN as the same.

I even had an comment from someone who I disagree with constantly on here in support the other day on a different forum. That was one for the books!

Some people need to look in the mirror. I’m not saying it is you Free, but seriously? I’m seriously thinking of writing a blog of all the names and disparaging comments about my personal character I have received on here. The reason – because I proudly identify I am a member of Labor. Would that be playing the victim, or showing people from my perspective? Yet, I’m the one who needs to be positive!

If I had a victim mentality, I wouldn’t bother participating and I would cease posting articles. I’m not here for a fan club. I write to raise awareness about issues, I feel are important social policy issues. That is it. If you don’t like it. Say so. But say it better than “Its all Labor’s fault and Trish is a deranged psychopath!”
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 6:32 pm

cornlegend September 1, 2016 at 6:23 pm

Yeah just blame me,I`ll wear it,no wucken forries
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrQUugaUMAA-tus.jpg
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:35 pm

This written piece is aimed at neoliberals wherever they may be. That means the LNP; sleepers in Labor; and even the Greens, as the case may be. I hypothsise that that means 100% LNP, 60% Labor and 20% Greens.

Many of us reading this article, want to see the neoliberalist stranglehold on systems, that provide our standards of living, loosened so we can breathe fresh air freely without feeling impoverished and devoid of hope for our people’s future.

Many of us reading this article, may agree that the Greens and Labor having open, and later publicly-witnessed dialogue, will help bring about the immediate reduction of that neoliberal stranglehold of all our important institutions.

Those who argue against this intention and a worthy way to achieve it, expose themselves to be questionable in their political intentions. I may struggle to call them pathological but I could consider them, sociopathic.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:44 pm

Trish Corry why you do not read my posts FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 1:14 pm
Perhaps that will help you to look at the debate in a different way.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 6:47 pm

Was that meant to be a turn-on, Bighead? Why direct it at poor cornlegend alone, who does try sometimes to keep an educative and engaged dialogue?
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 6:50 pm

[Those who argue against this intention and a worthy way to achieve it, expose themselves to be questionable in their political intentions. I may struggle to call them pathological but I could consider them, sociopathic.]

How does that add to a constructive debate Jennifer? It doesn’t. It is purposely said to piss people off and create more division. Which what these comments are always about. Disparage Labor voters and praise those who against them. Rinse and repeat.

1. Labor does NOT need to form an alliance with the Greens, just because you think they do and it would be ‘nice’.
2. You need to articulate some type of actual argument of the pros and cons of this in your own article.
3. You need to articulate in your article some type of actual argument as to why the left should join forces to stamp out neolibealism and how that would work.
4. You need to define your understanding of Neo-Liberalism and to what extent the ‘sleepers in Labor’ are Neo-Liberalist (60% apparently!) and some research at least on how that is affecting current Labor policy.
5. You need to concede that the Greens would have to give up some of their stances on policy and internal party workings as well as Labor and what should they be.
6. You also need to put some energy into understanding Labor and Labor policies before you think you are the authority on what they are and what their policies are.
7. You actually need to provide some type of criticism of both parties and why they are no good as stand alone parties.
8. Research rather than opinion may have been a bit more conducive to positive debate.

You have provided none of this in your article, yet expect a decent commentary on the matter. Its all a guessing game what you actually mean, to be honest. You are basically sitting back and wanting everyone else to come up with the solutions. Where are yours? Forming an alliance because that would be nice, is not a solution.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:01 pm

Trish and cornlegend ,
I just read the Employment and Workplace Relations polices of the Greens here: http://greens.org.au/policies/employment-workplace-relations and I think that it is an improvement to what was before.
What is your opinion?
Perhaps have to be looked deeper to have a well educated opinion.

Workers right is a topic of my passion and I detest the present laws that a Union can be take to Court for lost of income by the employers.
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 7:08 pm

Jennifer Meyer-Smith September 1, 2016 at 6:47 pm
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:10 pm

Biggy,
We went on holidays to Huma Island in the Phillipines.
A private Island but half full of Republican Trump supporters,
I can’t catch a break 😀
This time, a little more settled , like Greece
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 7:11 pm

Trish Corry September 1, 2016 at 6:50 pm

Thank you Trish for that marvellous expose` as it reveals all that should be
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:13 pm

Freethinker
thanks for your effort but really, I couldn’t give a toss what Greens policy on anything is .

Not like they will EVER get to implement any so … hollow promise cost stuff all when you know you never have to deliver.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:14 pm

You are right, Trish, to some extent. I want other people to help me come up with the solutions. That was the plan from the first moment when engaged in convos with poor, patient cornlegend, who still tried to present the party line. Denying the need for an alliance under any guise so the public sees the negotiations and agreements, is the way to perpetual frustration and stagnation. So, my responses to you are as follows:

1. Sorry! Labor DOES need to form the dreaded ALLiance if they want to stay relevant to thinking Australians.
2. Depends if you’re critically thinking and not just reacting with knee-jerk reactions.
3. I will give you the opportunity of re-thinking this point, as it could point to your own incapacity to examine your own and your party’s motives.
4. Was a hypothesis. Now prove, it’s not that percentage.
5. Fair enough but like you say about Labor leadership, I’m just a shit-kicker like you.
6. I accept I don’t know modern Labor policies coz they veer too far Right from where I last cared about Labor.
7. Done already. You just didn’t understand it.
8. Did you read the title of the article by any chance?
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 7:16 pm

cornlegend September 1, 2016 at 7:10 pm

Now you know why I`m a gold prospector mate

Did you know peace is gold
Silence is Golden
And Nature turns it all on for you?

I do one thing adamantly though,If I turn over a rock or large branch and nanimals live under it,I put it back as I found it
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:19 pm

https://laborenabled.typeform.com/to/DnXFMP
Fill this in if you have time
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:31 pm

Done cornlegend. Let’s hope our comments make a difference to policy formulation.
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 7:36 pm

Done Cornie
This shows how switched on Labor really are
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:38 pm

Only switched on, if they’re prepared to make the difference, Bighead.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:43 pm

cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:13 pm
Freethinker
thanks for your effort but really, I couldn’t give a toss what Greens policy on anything is .
Not like they will EVER get to implement any so … hollow promise cost stuff all when you know you never have to deliver. End of Quote

Not worry cornlegend, just was to have a exchange of opinions, perhaps they will never be able to implementing them but it will give you an idea if they are close enough to join any of the both big parties in the senate to pass a legislation.

You never know, always there is the risk for some right wing politician even if a pretending moderate left in any of the big parties to deteriorate more the workers rights and conditions like Hawke done with the enterprise bargaining in 1993 by amending the federal arbitration legislation to allow for non-union bargaining, which challenged the previous privileged position of unions in bringing industrial issues before the federal tribunal.
Policies like that which brought union membership from 51 per cent in 1976 to 30.3 per cent in 1997 should not be allowed to be repeated.
Any genuine even moderate union member or ALP fpr that matters should not allow that.

By the way, as it is now, the ALP without the Greens in the senate is irrelevant, just a thought.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 7:56 pm

[Depends if you’re critically thinking and not just reacting with knee-jerk reactions.]

The onus of critical analysis and critical thinking is on you as the Author JMS. That means that you need to in the first place present a coherent and solid argument backed up by facts. Opinion does not deserve or welcome critical analysis.

[ I will give you the opportunity of re-thinking this point, as it could point to your own incapacity to examine your own and your party’s motives.]

You haven’t told readers what your motives are for a start. You have provided no detail on if this is just a thought bubble from you. If there is a push in Labor to join with the Greens, nor have you tried to understand or articulate if Greens voters are comfortable with Labor. I think if you re-think your own stance, you will see that it is poorly articulated and one sided and it does not consider the wider view of readers from both parties. You feel the onus is only on those in Labor to not resist the sweet temptation of all that the Greens would bring to Labor.

[Was a hypothesis. Now prove, it’s not that percentage.]

Um! What! Surely you are joking!

[Fair enough but like you say about Labor leadership, I’m just a shit-kicker like you.]
This is in response to my: You need to concede that the Greens would have to give up some of their stances on policy and internal party workings as well as Labor and what should they be.

Surely if you are presenting an argument that Labor and Greens should align, this would have been one of your central things to think about. Ok….guess not! This demonstrates that you have given no thought to this argument of alignment, because you have zero opinion on what comprises should be made to make it work. They way you present yourself in your comments, on many articles, I’m assuming that you think that Labor should just give them Labor members seats, a portfolio and probably the leadership and adopt all their policies, with no concessions on the Greens behalf.

[I accept I don’t know modern Labor policies coz they veer too far Right from where I last cared about Labor.]
Yet you present yourself as a leading authority on everything that is wrong with Labor, and everything that is wrong with Labor voters. If you have not taken any notice of Labor policy – how on earth do you even conclude they are far right?

[Done already. You just didn’t understand it.] This is in response to my point there is a lack of criticism about both parties.

You have a list of points about what is wrong with Labor. All you said about the Greens was they have some faults. That is not criticism.

[Did you read the title of the article by any chance?] This is in response to: Research rather than opinion may have been a bit more conducive to positive debate.

How does the title of an article have anything to do with how well researched an article is?
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 7:59 pm

Well said, cornlegend.

I’d like to ask the union know-alls how Hawke got to be the head of the Union Movement? What did he appear to offer? In future, you and we need to veer far away from such smooth-talkers.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:01 pm

Trish,

relax!

All will be in natural balance once The ALLiance eventuates.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:05 pm

“By the way, as it is now, the ALP without the Greens in the senate is irrelevant, just a thought.”
not necessarily,
they don’t always vote together,
In the H.O.R. the Green is irrelevant without the ALP.
Oh, hang on, he is anyway 😀

Jennifer
“Well said, cornlegend.” what did I say, I never mentioned Hawke
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:11 pm

Allow me to get a bit out of topic and comment on this event today at the HOR. I love it.
Quote form the news here: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/01/labor-wins-votes-in-lower-house-to-force-coalition-to-debate-banking-inquiry

The Turnbull government has lost its first votes on the floor of the House of Representatives as Labor intensified its political attack on the prime minister and the Coalition using the spearhead of the banking royal commission.

Labor moved on Thursday night to bring a motion calling for a banking royal commission that had cleared the Senate earlier in the day to the lower house for consideration, catching the government entirely flat-footed as the House was set to adjourn.

The government lost the initial procedural votes because senior figures, including the immigration minister Peter Dutton, and two Western Australians, the justice minister Michael Keenan and social services minister Christian Porter, were not in the chamber.

Government sources later claimed Labor MPs had deliberately created the impression they were leaving the parliamentary precinct after the sitting week, only to return to bring on the procedural bunfight.

As well as the absence of ministers, one Liberal backbencher, Craig Kelly, went for a walk outside the building minus his mobile phone.

The lost votes enabled Labor to capture control of the chamber and argue the case for the banking royal commission for around three hours on Thursday evening. The opposition claimed the last time a majority government lost a vote on the floor of the House was 1962.
End of quote

I just wonder how Christopher Pain feel about this?
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:12 pm

cornlegend,

whether you mentioned Bobby or not, your movement has profited from his neoliberalist perspective on politics. Sorry, now it becomes deeper.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:19 pm

Well documented, Freethinker.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:26 pm

Trish Corry,
re blinkered vision Greens .
I had someone comment to me on saturday night when Labor hit the front in NT that the Green apologists would go quiet .
Stone cold 😀
The comment today, here, “Labor only managed a 7,5% swing”
ONLY,, only,
They look like having 16-18 of the 25 seats and have reduced the former ruling CLP to numbers that small the whole CLP can go to work together on a bike .

Now the Greens ..
2,9% down 0.05% and not a peep
No stewards inquiry no swabbing to see if they ran “dead”
just a don’t mention it, they might forget it ,

And Labor only got a 7.5% increase 😀
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 8:33 pm

cornlegend,

your only defence ever is by numbers which means established and not necessarily entitled power.

Don’t bullshit anybody.

TODAY we’re talking about INclusive politics and NOT just bully boys in self-entitled positions in Labor, LNP or maybe Greens etc.

NB WE ALL HATE LNP (in case Trish or Biggy don’t quite understand the cause!!!)
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:34 pm

Freethinker. Thanks for the employment policy link. I have no issue with any of it.

Just to demonstrate how this can get frustrating; is all the points in the employment policy are the things that Labor and the Unions have fought for and some even have died for. Died for. As in lost their lives. Some were also jailed. (I’m not telling you how to suck eggs, more for the wider readership)

If one criticism I have with Labor is stronger links to Unions and their workers, and the respect of what they have fought for, not less.

The problem that I personally have with the likes of JMS and her happy Labor hating squad, is they will completely ignore that fact and insist that this is all the work of the Greens. “Its Greens policy!!!” they will shout, not Labor’s!

This is where the problem lies from my point of view. The perception that the Greens can piggy back off of Labor’s hard work, really does annoy me. To me, they seem like a rather lazy party and probably should really just focus on their specific area of interest – the environment. Rather than a be all things to all people. I must say, the donations reform debate is interesting if put in the light of how particular the Greens are in promoting unions, considering Unions have recently been donating to the Greens! (Maybe leave for another day!)

There isn’t one original point in their policy or any type of original progressive reform – however, I will give item number 26 credit about the jobs impact assessment.

In a way, with how they a talked up by many here, I’m a bit disappointed their policy is not a bit more ‘Left’ is not original at all and omits quite a few important things, such as:

1. Decentralisaiton of the public sector to regional areas,

2. Continuous independent Workload assessments and Cost benefit analysis on public sector jobs to ensure level of service and appropriate workload impact

3. Quotas of the unemployed employed towards any Govt infrastructure project

4. Decentralisation of Govt funded community orgs to local area community orgs (the current model is focused on Fiscal responsibility, rather than local need and expertise)

5. A removal of restrictions on access to vocational education

6. Policy that restricts or prevents any legislation that creates an inequitable access to civil rights for workers than the rest of our citizens (ie the ABCC)

7. The removal of year 12 as a pre-requisite for many job occupations as the standard and a return to apprenticeship and trainees from the end of year 10. (Junior Certificate equivalent).

8. A taxpayer subsidised apprentice and trainee program, with adult quotas and marginalised group quotas included.

9. Centralising TAFE as a federal body, to provide consistency of vocational education to all citizens in all states.

10. An entire reconfiguration of the jobseeker/employment system with a shift to voluntary participation and the removal of punitive and financial measures.

11. Legislation that outlaws any program which could be determined as free labour, particularly for private enterprise. (Work for the Dole).

These are just some of my own ideas (I have heaps more). There are many more ideas within the Labor movement with tens of thousands of people contributing ideas all the time. These are discussed every day amongst many of us. The party allows for us to put forward our ideas as policy. For this as only one reason, I refuse to believe Labor is a crap party, and I refuse to believe we need the Greens, as we can quite well manage policy development and reform on our own and good policy and reform at that. We have over 100 years history to prove it. Labor will win the next election, because of the people showing up to do the work. Not because of the Greens.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:36 pm

Jennifer – that is an alarming fact that you hate the LNP. Who wudda thunk it! Truly! You barely mention them! It thought everything was Labor’s fault!
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 8:39 pm

Jennifer – I’m not sure if you are on a phone or a computer, but your comments to other people are replies to me on wordpress and my phone is lighting up like a Christmas Tree.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:00 pm

Calm down, Trish. You need just to rest and contemplate the elements of the entire conversation from my side and yours.

If you’re not up to that challenge, them just allow somebody else less defensive to do the job.
Bighead1883September 1, 2016 at 9:03 pm

Jennifer Meyer-Smith September 1, 2016 at 8:33 pm

Wow,I`ve read some discombobulation in my day but this takes the cake
I`m so over this article and your vileness JM-S
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:04 pm

Jennifer,
And you were going along all right then
“cornlegend,
your only defence ever is by numbers which means established and not necessarily entitled power.
Don’t bullshit anybody.

Why do you find election results so confronting?
“Don’t bullshit anybody. ”
what? it was a factual report from AEC .

It’s starting to get away from you again JMS
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 9:07 pm

Lol what? Are you joking? You seriously are starting to crack me up (with laughter). What type of voice do you read my comments in JMS? I’m completely calm. The idea you have presented in your article is a dismal unsupported joke. That doesn’t mean I’m angry about it!

You also can’t insist someone contemplate your side of the argument when you haven’t presented one and you have not reciprocated as the author. Why should anyone just automatically agree with you? You have given them no reason to.

If you bring a better argument next time, as your central thesis, it might be worth a bit more serious discussion. Until then, you have your lunchbox to shout “It’s all Labor’s fault” into.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:17 pm

Yes, yes, and yes Bighead, cornlegend and Trish Corry,

in that expected order of repudiation.

Sorry, it don’t count.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 9:17 pm

Diannaart:
…and please stop using terms like “ummmm” or claims that we don’t know what we are talking about – unless you have actual proof.

Ummmmmm – I actually cut and pasted the proof (of the policy excerpt) in the comment that you obviously didn’t read!

The fact is Jennifer does not know what she is talking about AND she has also admitted it. She has no idea about Labor policy and doesn’t read it. A self-identified leading authority on how crap Labor is – openly admitted in this thread she knows nothing about them. She just hates Labor because they aren’t the Greens. That is about it in a nutshell.

Says it all. Explains the article. Explains a lot really.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:38 pm

Trish,

has it occurred to you that you run the risk of being accused of being full of shit.

Let’s keep the battle of words going until the good shows You’re finished and resume soon when convenient to us all.

Right now, you’re just pulling at straws,

But I think you know that.
FreethinkerSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:38 pm

Trish, thank you for your inputs and I agree with them.
My concern with the Greens is that years ago used to be a party for very few issues, mostly the environment which it is very important but cannot be the only one to have in apolitical party.
This lack of policies were a concern to me because we did not in which way the Greens were to go in case that a major party was going to introduce a police which will affect the workers rights.
It appears to me that in this issue there is an improvement in their polices sufficient to back up the ALP if it does not have the majority in a future government.
I agree with you on the history of the Labor party and the union movement and it is a shame that many of the efforts and sacrifices of previous union members were wasted by new generation of workers and union representatives.
I guess that part of that is not fault of the Labor or the union organizers but the greed and insecurity of many workers.
People have give away their freedom or tools to defend their rights because their debt with financial institutions.
I cannot see the possibility to go back to the old times where the workers were able to sacrificing their income by going in strike to improve their wages and conditions or defending their rights.
I do not believe that the Labor is a crap party just thing that it is not that used to be on the early 1970’s and before that.
Perhaps my view it is to radical, to far to the left without be a communists (I never can be one) but I cannot help it because my pass experiences.
I hope that my contributions are not taken as a negative, we need an strong opposition to the extreme right ideology in the Coalition and as it is the present political landscaping in Australia the ALP is the only major force to do that and the help of others can be useful when the numbers are not there for the ALP when it is needed.
Criticism is good Trish, it help to develop the party and be in touch with the electorate.
jimSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:43 pm

What Trish Corry said.period!.

We have the worst government . since 1949 and it’s the LNP,……As the Australia Institute’s research in June found – across a broad range of economic measures, the Abbott/Turnbull government has performed the worst of any Australian government since 1949. Economist Jim Stanford’s report examines economic performance across 12 indicators – including GDP per capita, the unemployment rate, employment growth and the growth of real business investment and intellectual property investment …
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 9:45 pm

Trish,

whatever your crazy mind is telling you right at This moment, I’m off to watch SBS tonight to see good international drama that actually helps to build perspective in our internal conflicts.

Left AND Left. In other words. Labor AND Greens.

Get used to it. We are here to stay and Labor is not the Only Alternative coz Greens are here to stay.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 9:48 pm

So are you saying that you didn’t make this statement before:

“. I accept I don’t know modern Labor policies coz they veer too far Right from where I last cared about Labor.”

Pretty sure it isn’t me who is full of shit! You just wrote and published an article about why Labor should join the Greens, but you admit you know nothing about Labor! How can you even claim that they are so weak on their own that they need the Greens to join them, then?

You also were talking about Hawke before and horrible he was. When was the last time you took notice of Labor policy? 1983?

Well hopefully you have learnt that if you post an article, you should at least be engaged enough to understand topic you are writing about.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 10:24 pm

Thanks Freethinker. Don’t get me wrong, I have criticisms of Labor. I am very active in Labor in my local area and like all of us in the party, we put forward what we think is the best way forward. I sometimes argue more fiercely with those in my own party, then I do with those who hate us. I argue with conviction because I believe very strongly in some things. I can be swayed. Believe me. But the opposing argument must exist at least and have credibility for consideration.

No, I don’t see your posts as an attack. There are a particular few who make a point of attacking anything I have to say, be in comments or if I post an article. They are the people I was referring to in general comments. They know who they are. JMS is one of them. Personally, I have experienced the very nasty (and sometimes quite scary) side of blogging and it is not pleasant. People like JMS and her ‘crew’ contribute to that, repeatedly. This same group including JMS are always pointing out how I fail at leftism (because Greens are so left and Labor are not logic), but funnily enough all of my articles are on stigma and welfare, homeless, the unemployed, poverty, women, Indigenous issues, inequity and the like.

So that may put into context some of the things I was saying, were not directed at you.

This article was written because JMS was so insistent on my last article that Labor were such a horrible party, that someone (me) needed to write an article about that. I declined. She has written it. That is the story behind this article.

I also don’t have any real animosity towards the Greens in general, but some of the things they say and do, really do get my back up. The social media Greens supporting commentariat are far, far worse than the Greens politicians themselves. At least when they say crappy things about Labor, it is strategic and political. The Greens supporting commentariat on AIMN just think Labor supporters are neo-liberalist sheep who blindly follow Labor. That is except for when it suits their own purposes to talk about alliances and the like.

I don’t like the attitude of “the Greens are all nice so we never have to criticise them” That is probably my biggest beef with the Greens supporters. It should not be Labor always called up to explain themselves. The Greens want to be a major player, they need to expect to be under much more scrutiny.

I have a lot of respect for Senator Waters and Rachel Siewart in particular. I can’t stand the closet conservative DiNatale and frankly, the party needs to remove him from the leadership. His latest stunt removing a sincere, convicted woman of action like SHY from her key policy area, reeks of jealousy and pettiness. Scott Ludlam or Larissa Waters should lead the party in my opinion. Adam Bandt is just a harpy who bags Labor more than the LNP. I have very little respect for him. Its a wonder he even knows what the LNP are doing, he is so focused on Labor.

I also don’t think that the (nasty group of) Greens supporting commentariat on AIMN are representative of the wider Greens voters. I have met quite a few in my town and they are like minded on many things and in general we help each other out at the booths, because the Greens don’t get many volunteers.

Honestly, if Govt’s had respect for the unions and workers, they could legislate for all workers to be able to self elect to salary sacrifice a percent of their wages for ‘workers funds’ in times of strike action, regardless of what Industry, salary sacrifice could apply.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:34 pm

Now, now Trish,

don’t try to claim the credits for what is not yours.

Also, I would advise you to become acquainted with some circumspect political principals coz I think you’re lacking them right now.

And please don’t allege you know all about what’s good and workable while the rest of us don’t coz the reality is we’ve probably been where you are and done that and still found it wanting.

Don’t tell your Grandma how to suck eggs, in other words.
Trish CorrySeptember 1, 2016 at 10:37 pm

Ok sorry for whatever bad experiences you seem to have in your life Jennifer, and you feel the need to blame me for, but seriously that is some weird incoherent garble right there.

Goodnight.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 10:42 pm

That does not make sense, Trish.

You might like to explain tomorrow morning after a good sleep. Cornie and Biggie might help.
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:02 pm

Nah, I reckon after finally admitting your Greenness, you lost the bloody plot JMS.
Leave me out of your garbled nonsense.
enough is enough even for me
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:13 pm

Funny how you want to back out now when time for sleep!
cornlegendSeptember 1, 2016 at 11:38 pm

I’m not ready for bed, just a sanity check
This is a time I do business stuff
at least for 2-3 more hours
paulwalterSeptember 2, 2016 at 12:28 am

Trish Corry, your post 8 34 in actually unpacking a policy idea some good might come from I’d say it would bemy idea but like so many things I dream a little but hope is tempered with a sense of sometimes bitter history.
Realism isn’t a sin.
trishcorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 7:34 am

Paul – I’m really not sure what you mean. So, yes I have listed some policy ideas in other comment. I could do that all day everyday. Why do you need to tell me realism is not a sin? What is your point?
Kaye LeeSeptember 2, 2016 at 9:36 am

“There are a particular few who make a point of attacking anything I have to say, be in comments or if I post an article. They are the people I was referring to in general comments. They know who they are. JMS is one of them.”

Sigh….
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 9:43 am

Trish @ 10.24 pm last night,

as I’ve reminded you throughout this ‘discussion’, I am seeking feedback from everyone on how parties on the Left can come together to form alliances that the public is aware of, that seek to defeat the destruction of the LNP and the neoliberalist stranglehold of our socio-economic system. However, I failed to identify you made a pertinent comment with which I agree.

I also would like to see a shakeup of the Greens leadership. I do not favour the direction that Di Natale is taking the Greens in. Call me a rabble-rouser as much as you like but what you say about the treatment of Hanson-Young, who has been an admirable torch-bearer for asylum seekers is disturbing. On a positive note, I also agree Siewert, Waters and Ludlum are worthy Greens politicians and potential leaders. Bandt is someone I’m prepared to back also and I like how he has also started to open discussion about a Greens/Labor/Progressives Alliance.

So, if we continue any discussion here or elsewhere, I want you and others to realise that I see the need for refreshment on both fronts, as well as the open dialogue that gives all constituents on the Left, hope that a new dawn of advancement for the honourable, electable and winnable Left is approaching.
jimSeptember 2, 2016 at 10:31 am

Right left center right center left they are mere ideologies which imo can vary widely over time,………. wiki,In social studies, a political ideology is a certain ethical set of ideals, principles, doctrines, myths, or symbols of a social movement, institution, class, or large group that explains how society should work, and offers some political and cultural blueprint for a certain social order.
I think you are arguing over dreams IMO.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 10:36 am

jim,

so give me some solution ideas.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 10:48 am

Kaye Lee
“Sigh….”
I sighed too after Trishs first comment .
I just knew that the inevitability of the attacks that Trish and Victoria Rollinson regularly cop from the same handful was nigh.
So regular by the same few…..sigh.
A little less this time, some must be on holidays ………
Sigh……
Michael TaylorSeptember 2, 2016 at 11:00 am

I have just perused Victoria’s last three posts and only one person ‘attacked’ her, being a person who attacks 90% of the authors here.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 11:12 am

Over the months it is so regular I guess a few must escape, Glad Victoria has a slight respite from the wrath .
Now to see if Trishs next article can come through unscathed
Michael TaylorSeptember 2, 2016 at 11:20 am

Cornie, I just emailed you.
HarquebusSeptember 2, 2016 at 11:26 am

Cooperation is the only way we are going to survive the onslaught being waged against us by both major parties. Politicians are cooperating to destroy our world only. The only problem left to decide is, who can do the most destruction the quickest. Labor after the next election looks the best bet.

In my opinion, cooperation and alliances will be formed at the local level. When things go bad, the first people you rely on is your neighbors so, make sure that you are at least on speaking terms with them.

Nearly 150 comments. My first and only attempt only got 8.

Cheers.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 11:30 am

100% agree, H.

… and the discussion has only just begun! 🙂
Michael TaylorSeptember 2, 2016 at 11:30 am

H’, your first two paragraphs are worthy of applause. Well said.
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 11:32 am

Harquebus at my age I am just about to not have any hope left.
Greed is what ruin humanity and we can see it at all levels.
Cooperation is a difficult thing to achieve when there is no political maturity and we see it on the political parties and on it followers.
trishcorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 11:50 am

From my perspective, there is one very important thing missing. No one has articulated or put forward a solid argument about what “working together would look like?” As I said previously, as these arguments are absent in Jennifer’s article, one can only guess.

Going by the comments, I understand people are advocating for a formal alliance between the Green and Labor.

Some questions are raised from this?

Why? (I certainly see no benefit, drawing in a protest party to Labor)
If this did occur – how would it work?
What concessions would both sides need to make?

Just saying ‘this would be nice’ doesn’t cut it for me. Yes, it would be nice if we all lived together in peace and harmony. Although Labor and Greens may agree on some things, they are vastly different in many ways. The Greens all or nothing approach is their biggest downfall. They have very poor negotiation skills and show no evidence of their consideration of ramifications of some of their decisions.

They do not demonstrate that they consider a balance between economic impacts and social reform. Nor do they demonstrate that they understand all regions of Australia. That is perhaps why Greens votes are higher in capital cities and barely register in regional areas.

I simply do not see why Labor needs the Greens in any shape or form, unless it was an mutual agreement of support if it was a close election, but not a formal agreement.

Labor and Greens already support each other in terms of policy where it matters and sometimes they do not. This is on both sides. Are people here arguing that both parties need to remove themselves from their party values to agree on all things?

If Greens members are not satisfied with the Greens then why don’t they just insist on more input and more community development. This does take work. If the Greens want more power, why should it just be handed to them via Labor?

Perhaps H is talking about all the micro, minor and minor/major left parties forming an alliance and leaving Labor out of it. Maybe that is the discussion that could be held here, if no one can give valid reasons why Labor and Greens need to have a formal alliance to ‘defeat the LNP”.
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 12:21 pm

Trish asking:
What concessions would both sides need to make?

Impossible IMO because their ideology about economics, war and foreign affairs, refugees in detention among other issues is to far apart.

There is more hope of the Greens to join forces with Andrew Wilkie than with the ALP
Trish CorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 12:31 pm

I would not say dramatically far apart, but I would agree that both parties differ in terms of various aspects of all of these policy areas, where agreement would be difficult.

I think that is a good start for an argument – that is from someone who does not self-identify as a Labor member/voter/supporter, (and can’t be blamed as that is their excuse) that is valuable for discussion.

Labor can remain a centre-left major party able to Govern in its own right, and if other parties want to join forces and be label themselves more ‘left than labor’ maybe this is a good thing, because a larger ‘leftist’ alliance may come under more scrutiny than the Greens do now.
trishcorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 1:14 pm

The question is would this Leftist alliance only target Labor and Labor seats in an attempt to fracture the left and wrestle power from the major centre left party? Or would they target the Libs and their seats? Could the Greens give up their main political strategy to work together with others?
trishcorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 1:38 pm

Another point to contemplate:

If this alliance between Greens and other ‘left minor, micros and Indy’s’ did occur. Would this leftist alliance target Labor seats in an attempt to fracture the left and gain power? Or would they target Liberal seats?

Would the Greens be able to give up their main strategic political objective of attacking Labor to try to win their seats ‘to work together nicely with others?”
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 1:49 pm

Trish, IMO any left movement will not have much hope in rural areas, the left movement have to start in the cities where poverty or drastic deterioration of living standard is among a reasonable educated voters.
Unfortunately in this electorates the ALP is also present and in many cases have a very valuable representative.

I am following with relative interest the developments within the Green party and think that if Richard Di Natale continue to be the leader many greens will walk out of the party and vote for some of the minor parties or a coalition of them.
Some of the original members of the Green movement in Tasmania have left the party just before the last election.

So, IMO it is not that the Greens or progressive micro parties are attacking the ALP, the seats in urban electorates are their only hope.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 2:11 pm

Freethinker
“I am following with relative interest the developments within the Green party and think that if Richard Di Natale ”
I too have been following that but not much seems to surface.
I am friends with an Illawarra Green {dozens of individual branches} and he keeps me somewhat up to date with goings on .
It seems that NSW Greens are imploding as well as Tassie
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-31/greens-resign-over-executive-sacking/7463134

Infighting and conflict in the New South Wales Greens has intensified, with revelations another four party officials — including some who are also currently running as candidates — have resigned from the Committee of Management (CoM).
The party’s most senior employee, campaign director Carole Medcalf, had taken the party to Fair Work Australia, prompting former party treasurer Chris Harris to resign and accuse the Greens of acting like major banks

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-31/greens-resign-over-executive-sacking/7463134

Then we have the ongoing conflict between NSW and Victorian Greens

A Tale Of Two Cities: Greens Grapple With Poor NSW Showing

and then, what seems like a “forever” dispute between Bob Brown and Lee Rhiannon
Where we had
Bob Brown unloading on Lee Rhiannon

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jul/29/greens-acrimony-bob-brown-unloads-on-lee-rhiannon-and-nsw-party

And Lee Rhiannon suffering a “broken heart” over Bob Brown

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/02/i-joined-the-greens-because-of-bob-brown-but-now-he-has-broken-my-heart?CMP=soc_567

Top that off with the goings on of McKim, Whish-Wilson and others and you get to wonder just
where Di Natale and his “leadership” is.

Seems before they want to tear off and get into ‘alliances” they have some house keeping to do IMHO 😀
trishcorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 2:17 pm

OMG!!! That is a mess!
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 2:33 pm

Trish,
there never is much scrutiny of matters Green
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 2:50 pm

Now that you’ve had your chance to have another whinge at the Greens, what are we ALL going to do to defeat the LNP and neoliberalism?
Mark NeedhamSeptember 2, 2016 at 3:00 pm

A mirror.
We all should be reflective, of our wants.
With a few, very few, changes to the comment article, it could be construed as an LNP contrivance.
We, us, we All, are seeking much the same, see the fault and evil in others, so clearly, so precise., yet wallow in the mediocrity of our own exceptional brilliance.
Said it before, and it needs to keep being said, “What is it that makes me, the smart one and all others the, well, unwashed.”
I have danced around the Sun, in my preset form, 67 times. You can bet, that I shall continue the same dance for some time yet.
The world is full of idiots, ‘cept for me and you.
Cheers,
Mark Needham
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 3:23 pm

Jennifer Meyer-Smith
As a Green wouldn’t you like to see some scrutiny of your party?
Festering wounds tend not to heal
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 3:27 pm

Mark,
wasn’t the old quote
“”Everyone in the world is quite mad, except for me and thee. And sometimes I have my doubts about thee.”
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 3:31 pm

Jennifer Meyer-Smith September 2, 2016 at 2:50 pm
Now that you’ve had your chance to have another whinge at the Greens, what are we ALL going to do to defeat the LNP and neoliberalism?

Well Jennifer, greed affect the LNP as well so just let Cory and his mates do the job, get some popcorn, seat and watch.
Alternative try to form a party with people free of ego and greed and let me know when you have the necessary number.
I am sure that the old brigade among us will watch the developments with interest.

Meanwhile we can start betting which party will have a new faction in the near future first, the Libs or the Greens
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 3:40 pm

Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 2:50 pm

“Now that you’ve had your chance to have another whinge at the Greens,”
As someone who apparently spends all their waking hours bagging the “Labor bastards” , “Lib/lab flip flops “ad nauseam
don’t even you see the hilarity/hypocracy in your comment?
Trish CorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 3:45 pm

Jennifer, so we are all on the same page – can you please give us a brief understanding of your idea of what neo-liberalism is? Just so we know we are all talking about the same thing. I’m saying this because I had formed a belief about neo-liberalism only for Strobe-Driver to point out that I was not correct on another thread. I am not an economist and I do not believe you are one (correct me if I’m wrong) and this correction from SD was welcome as it made me see something in a different light. In short, I had actually taken on board some of the arguments from the Greens about Labor’s involvement/introduction of neo-Liberalism. Which did lead me up the garden path. (Shame on me).

Should this just be a word neo-liberalism be bandied about and we all assume what the other person means and if their interpretation of this, is correct?
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 3:57 pm

The Monthly Essays in 2/2012 have a nice article by Sally Neighbour.

(https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2012/february/1330563315/sally-neighbour/divided-we-fall)

I love the bit, quote:
The Greens mayor of Byron Bay (since 2004), who was elected last year as one of six Greens in the NSW parliament, says the BDS furore reflects a “struggle for identity” in the party. “We are going through the sometimes painful process of making sure where we stand,” she says.
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 4:05 pm

Trish, see if you can have access to this article:

Friend or foe? The impact of the Hawke/Keating neoliberal reforms on Australian workers and the Australian public sector
Dibley-Maher, Paul (2012) Friend or foe? The impact of the Hawke/Keating neoliberal reforms on Australian workers and the Australian public sector. Masters by Research thesis, Queensland University of Technology.

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/54641/

Remember this article in this site? :
A Country under Siege: A Brief History of Neoliberalism in Australia. https://theaimn.com/country-siege-brief-history-neoliberalism-australia/
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 4:06 pm

Trish Corry
Here is a little excercise for you
I have a few friends doing it too,
Write on a scrap of paper
1 neo-Liberalism
2 Economy MMT
3 18c
4 Who is deputy P.M.
5 how long is a Term in Federal Parliament

take it to the shops or wherever and get peoples response.
so far from a few hundred responses we have had 3 correct on a single one {Barnaby}
Plenty of blank stares !!!
It gives an interesting insight into the general publics interest/attitude to government and issues
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 4:20 pm

cornlegend : take it to the shops or wherever and get peoples response.

What are you trying to say with that?
Just because ignorance in the electorate we cannot accept that a party or politician implement a policy or theory that going against the interest of the country.
Those that understand neoliberal economy and saw it as a solution are beginning to see that they were wrong.
Aagain just read the excellent article in AIMN by Sean Stinson
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 4:42 pm

Freethinker,
“What are you trying to say with that?”
I have had a lifelong interest and involvement in Unions and politics and at times just assume the average everyday Australian voter is as well.
The reality of the situation is the the vast majority of Australians couldn’t give a stuff about politics and the quickest way to kill a conversation is to raise it .
We sometimes need to go back to basics and address issues that have a direct impact on the individual
The reality is, people don’t give a stuff about neoliberalism,Right/Left or factional issues.
They get concerned every 3 years on issues that directly affect them . health/education/taxes etc .
My point is, sometimes we with an interest wrongly assume that the vast majority do also
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 4:54 pm

I agree with you on that, but to achieve what “people give stuff” to the proposed policies, those that create them have to have some knowledge and the point raised here is that neoliberal economy will not be able to achieve what the masses want.
I am sure that we, the ones that participate in this site are interested in going further than basics and try to have a exchange of ideas of what are the best policies to achieve some good for the country.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 5:06 pm

“I am sure that we, the ones that participate in this site are interested in going further than basics and try to have a exchange of ideas of what are the best policies to achieve some good for the country.”
I’m certain that they do also
But, unless political parties start to get out there and educate the people and bring them along, in a way that they can understand,
the next election will be upon us and the masses will continue to be disengaged,
Shorten recognised the need to get out to the people early and started quietly campaigning to catch the pre pollers who “just wanted it over and done with” and the BillBus was really a huge hit in the 1000s of ks it covered with a diverse entourage.
It needs to happen more often and a return to regular Town Hall style meetings with A start,
Otherwise you can speak neoliberalism or bloody Martian and it all means the same to the majority
Trish CorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 5:13 pm

Here is the comment from strobedriver I was talking about.

This is a great article though I have some reservations Hawke-Keating introducing neo-liberal policies in the comments. I would argue they did go down the free-market path however, drawing the assumption that this is automatically ‘neo-liberal’ is a stretch. Neo-liberalism demands a pure Industrial-capitalist approach to the marketplace which in turn demands those that are unable to join it are not worthy of the support of the State per se — this has been displayed for instance the 1990s model of the exclusion of the poor from the Wisconsin electoral role in the US due to the fact that they were not ‘contributing members’ of their society and due to the fact they did not pay taxes. At no point (from memory) did the Hawke-Keating governments suggest that the unemployed be excluded from the care of the sovereign-state of Australia nor was it ever suggested that they should not still be able to vote, which would have happened should they have adopted a neo-liberal model of government. Notwithstandinng all of this ,the LNP are moving toward a neo-liberal agenda and Labor is no hero is the support of those that do not ‘contribute’ in the traditional way, work, tax etc, and really they’ve done very little to improve the plight of the unemployed etc… the list goes on.
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 5:22 pm

“But, unless political parties start to get out there and educate the people and bring them along, in a way that they can understand,
the next election will be upon us and the masses will continue to be disengaged,”

I agree with that, but I am pessimistic, IMO people still have it to good and need to “suffer” a bit more to realize that the present mob it is not a solution for their needs.
Then again, if this government continues to “govern” like it have done so far it is an asset for the opposition.
To telling you the truth cornlegend I am at lost how people in the bush can still vote for Joyce & Co after all the suffering that they are going trough. Reminds me back home when people in the bush were still voting for the ideology of pass leaders that have died long time ago like if some people here were voting for the Menzies party.

It is a hard job to educate people or trying to get the best for them.
In my union days here in OZ during the Fraser government and after on the 35 hours a week campaign I remember well that many people did not want to go in strike and loosing one day or two of wages but they were quick to rip the benefits gain by those that fight for them.
I spare a thought for you and the union organizers in the floor shops dedicating time for the good of others.
Trish CorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 5:28 pm

I’ll be a while reading this thesis, but I’ll get back to you Freethinker.
diannaartSeptember 2, 2016 at 5:37 pm

Gidday

Thinking about neoliberalism & the Labor party, looks as if we have a consensus that Hawke/Keating began that slippery slide, since then the LNP very effectively capitalised on it and in the ensuing years when Labor held office nothing at all (if anything) was done to turn the tide of the neoliberalism.

With both the LNP and Labor virtually schizoid with their factions, I posed a thought, yesterday for the left leaning Labor members, possibly known as the “left faction”. Who are these people? Tanya Plibersek, possibly, but I wasn’t thinking of the big names in Labor left, more the lefty equivalent of Trish Corry, Bighead and Cornlegend – those in Labor who do believe Labor needs to do a 180 lest it lose sight of democratic socialism or is that socialist democracy, whatever. Being more of a disappointed optimist type, I do believe there are Labor members who can take a critical look at their party. Do they get called “Labor Haters” whenever they dare to put their pinkoid heads over the parapets?

Where are they?
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 5:49 pm

Alive and well in all the branches .
The Labor hater bit usually gets reserved for closet Greens 😀
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:00 pm

cornlegend, just a question (not critic or looking for a negative comment after your reply)

Have the ALP Caucus/ membership considered to change the rules in the future so the members vote will be the one that elect the leader?
If the Caucus are members of the party why there are two votes?
Can a change eliminate any possibility of disputes?
I do not the history about internal vote in the ALP so perhaps what I saying was implemented before and changed at later stage to the present system.

By the way I like Albo.
diannaartSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:22 pm

The Labor hater bit usually gets reserved for closet Greens Thanks Cornie

This is what I am trying to discuss, Labor has its priorities a bit skewed, well a lot skewed, surely the true ‘blue’ Labor haters are all in the LNP, Christian whatever party, Fred Niles cult, Hanson’s hapless hopefuls and their ilk?
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:28 pm

At this stage there is no plan for change but it is an ongoing process.
I like Albo too, and in fact voted for him but the Caucus did not.
They see qualities in potential Leaders that the ordinary rank and file do not and have a better determination as to the better candidate .
I do know some of the reasons Bill won ,but let me just suffice to say that Albos colleagues [in fact his own faction} gave the majority vote to Bill.
Kevin Rudds proposal was the change would mean the leader would be elected jointly, with votes from party members given a 50 per cent weighting and the elected Labor Caucus making up the other 50 per cent.
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:32 pm

Thanks cornlegend
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:39 pm

Freethinker, I don’t know if you know about Labors initiatives trialled in NSW where residents as well as Party members get a say in preselection
Over 5000 voted in the Balmain preselection.

ALP candidates before the next state election, predicting it will increase political engagement and counter voter cynicism.

NSW Labor will allow members of the public to vote alongside local branch members for their Labor candidate in the seats of Balmain, Newtown, Campbelltown, Londonderry and Strathfield
Labor is trialling community pre-selection in five seats ahead of the state election in 2015, throwing open the votes to ordinary residents as well as rank-and-file party members.

The community is afforded 50 per cent of the vote in the seats while the branch gets the other half.
Ms Firth, who held the seat for before losing to Greens MP Jamie Parker in the last election, scored more than 3,000 of the more than 5,000 community votes.

The trials have also gone ahead in seats in Hunter region and Ballina as well as others

As Verity Firth said
“”This is the opposite of the faceless men; this is allowing anyone who lives in the community and is registered to vote the right to participate and have a say in who their Labor candidate is.”
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:40 pm

cornlegend @ 4.06 pm,

all the more reason to have all Ministers of Education even before government is taken away from the Federal LNP, to advocate to have study of Australia’s political landscape mandatory on all school curricula.

Tania Plibersek, as the Shadow Minister for Education, could be urged to advocate this principal to each of the state Ministers of Education.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:41 pm

diannaart
them too 😀
BUT, I guess you don’t come across the Greens Labor haters as often as I do.
vicious bloody lot 😀
Kaye LeeSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:43 pm

I would like to explain my previous sigh…

I have great admiration for JMS. That does not mean I agree with everything she says but she has earned my respect by ignoring the unstinting derision that has been directed towards her by some quarters whilst continuing to make suggestions, not dictates, searching for ways forward. Her suggestions re micro finance for startups is worthy, her hope for co-operation between progressives is one I share. I do not expect an alliance because Labor party politics is so power based that they would rather lose than sully their brand with Green germs but there is no need for a formal coalition, just talk to each other, find common ground, disagree where you must but FFS stop the “they stink” crap. It is infuriating to we unaligned people.
diannaartSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:43 pm

Cornie

Something to be grateful for, I guess.

😛
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:44 pm

cornlegend, thanks for that, a great initiative, something that other parties including the Greens should look with interest and follow trough.
That it democracy and giving the right to the masses.
I congratulate the party for that.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:46 pm

Thanks Kaye Lee.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:54 pm

Kaye Lee
Some good has come out of the article
It gave JMS the opportunity to “come out” and her outing did not seem to harm her in any way
“Get used to it. We are here to stay and Labor is not the Only Alternative coz Greens are here to stay”
“WE”, are here to stay
onya Jennifer, maybe you will draw some others “out”
Doug Evans where are you?
We may disagree {OFTEN, and for years 😀 } but you are Green and proud and I respect you for that

I too would like to explain my previous sigh…
Victoria and Trish publish, well not Victoria for a couple and the usual culprits play the author not the article .
sigh
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:54 pm

Jennifer Meyer-Smith September 2, 2016 at 6:40 pm
cornlegend @ 4.06 pm,

all the more reason to have all Ministers of Education even before government is taken away from the Federal LNP, to advocate to have study of Australia’s political landscape mandatory on all school curricula

Jennifer, that can be a very dangerous tool to brainwashing children by unscrupulous governments.
Let the people find out the education it is the best way to make decisions that will affect their life.

A more diversify media will be a better way IMO
Kaye LeeSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:57 pm

Must we all have a label?
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:00 pm

Freethinker,

the threat of brainwashing is present in the MSM too. There needs to be orchestrated education of the people about their democratic rights and responsibilities put in a modern Australian context. Education has never been a bad thing.
Kaye LeeSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:03 pm

cornie,

Trish continually accuses me of that. From my side, I feel anything other than non-critical acceptance of the Labor Party is acceptable. I have never understood the reaction I have received because I have never intended hurt.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:05 pm

For the record cornlegend,

any criticisms I may make against the work of certain writers, are caused by evidence of outright accusations against the Greens or Greens supporters, which further cause division.

This article is based on (yet again) my belief that we have more in common than otherwise, and the necessity to build upon that strength to tip the LNP out of power and on their heads for posterity, while setting up the frameworks for replacing neoliberalism with democratic socialism.
randalstellaSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:07 pm

Yes,
I’ve got to hand it to you Jennifer.
You stuck to it.
I don’t agree with the notions of any alliance: see above, way back among the Labor lovelies.
But you persisted, and it would not have been very pleasant.
Good on you for that.
You can take a break from the relentless crap, you know?

If Doug Evans responds to that invitation, he’s another one who needs his head read.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:12 pm

randalstella,

I don’t let people shut me down. Thanks also.
Michael TaylorSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:32 pm

I’m a Labor person – have been for about twenty years – but I am disappointed in a couple of their policies and quite a few of their decisions over the last five years. I said something negative about them a year or so ago and was hammered for it. Didn’t matter that I’d written a million positive things about them before that (and since). I generally don’t let me people bother me or deter me from saying what I want to, but that experience changed that a bit. It was nastier than anything the Right had ever thrown at me. These days I hold back a bit.

I don’t mind the Greens, and recently I’ve come close to voting for them. Di Natale turned me off them though. I just don’t trust him. I was not impressed with their decision to try and unseat Albo – I reckon that put a big wedge between the two parties – however it was their right to do so. Despite all that, I can’t remember a time I’ve ever said a bad word against them.

I know this has been a bit off topic, but I just wanted to say it.

I reckon that most Labor supporters would like to see a coalition with the Greens. However there are a number of Labor voters who hate them with a passion, as there are Greens supporters who hate Labor.

It’s obvious that at the top the parties don’t like each other, so we can’t hope for a trickle-down effect there. How about a ‘trickle’ up? Perhaps if the supporters displayed a bit of cooperation then it might flow up.

Just sayin’.
Trish CorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 7:43 pm

JMS – I have not personally abused you in any way. All of my comments have gone directly to your arguments and your lack of argument, all of my criticisms were about your actual writing. Not about you as an individual.

I did retort when you insinuated I was crazy, but I certainly stuck to criticisms of your article and the lack of thorough thought in your central arguments.

Arguments put forward – particularly something that will have a great effect – should be challenged. Why should people accept a suggestion of a significant change based on a thought bubble? Why should people accept a suggestion for significant change without pushing for deeper thinking on the matter? If that makes me whatever you want to call me – so be it.

I’m gobsmacked that people think that Jennifer has copped such unfairness and ‘derision’ when the comments were ONLY about her article! I’m so glad I’m sitting down. Time for a blog on this entire matter me thinks.
paulwalterSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:50 pm

Michael, it just seems to many people that that it such a fruitless, fitful thing that Labor and Greens quarrel amongst themselves while the common enemy is allowed to slip away scot free.
Michael TaylorSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:55 pm

Yes indeed, Paul. We all have the same enemy.
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:57 pm

I hope that with my spanglish I will not cause offend because that it is not mi intention.
IMHO what we have see here by some posters about the possible alliance or coalition between the ALP, Greens and left micro parties was politically immature and reflected the position of the ALP leadership before the election on the speculation of a possible formation of a government between the Greens and the ALP.
At the end of the day, IMO the leaders of the ALP have to respect the wishing of the electorate and if the electorate give enough votes to the Greens to form government so be it and respect it.
If they are not able to listen to the electorate and their ego or greed not allow it, then they are not fit to represent the people and should leave politics to others.
The politicians regardless of which party are, in government or opposition are there to serve the country and their people, their authority emanates from the people and stop when they have spoken.
(Quoting Artigas)

Jose Artigas, the Uruguayan liberator said, quote

My authority comes from you and it ceases before your sovereign presence.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 7:58 pm

Kaye LeeSeptember 2, 2016 at 6:57 pm

Must we all have a label?

It helps .
It avoids the
I’m not a **** supporter BUT ………
I don’t see a problem in declaring allegiances .
Labor and proud and will cark it that way
No one can be under any false illusions
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:02 pm

Paul, the divided opposition is a gain for them and they know it.
I hope that Bernardi & Co with their greed and ego made the coalition government weaker.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:02 pm

Exactly Michael.
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:04 pm

Freethinker
“At the end of the day, IMO the leaders of the ALP have to respect the wishing of the electorate and if the electorate give enough votes to the Greens to form government so be it and respect it.”
Of course if the Greens won 76 seats and formed government Labor would accept the will of the people
LNP won 76 and Labor respect their position, even though they may oppose the policies that got them there
paulwalterSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:10 pm

Not long out at the Guardian, from Van Badham. Read it and read the comments section then refer to this threads comments section.:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/02/labor-shouldnt-support-newstart-cuts-it-would-be-a-moral-and-electoral-mistake#comments
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:10 pm

paulwalter and diannaart,

have consistently understood the fundamental requirement is to work together to defeat the LNP Degenerates and neoliberalism which has peeled away almost every higher standard of living we gained in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Fundamentalists of either Greens or Labor persuasion who work against a working partnership, seek personal and professional advantage by the status quo, deserve excommunication.
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:10 pm

cornlegend, I clarify that, I mean if the ALP needs the votes/ representatives of the greens to form government ……….
But then again I am sure that you understand what I was trying to say in the previous posts referring to the events just before the last election.

Some times I am trying to have a mature debate with some of the bloggers but to not avail.
I persist because with the majority we can have an educated exchange of opinions and learn from each other.
Trish CorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 8:13 pm

Fundamentalists of either Greens or Labor persuasion who work against a working partnership, seek personal and professional advantage by the status quo, deserve excommunication.

Jennifer there are now over 200 comments. As per previous requests, can you please now present an argument putting forward the major concepts of:

Why?
What would this look like?

For a start. We can go from there.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:27 pm

I’ve given you why – repeatedly.

The what it would look like depends on how we negotiate. So, you answer that question with some positive steps forward.
Trish CorrySeptember 2, 2016 at 8:30 pm

Maybe cut and paste that – because you have not. You have not explained at all, what it would look like. A formal alliance, a chat in a cafe amongst friends? and Why? What are your reasons that Labor cannot achieve in their own right and defeat the Liberals? What are your reasons that they need the Greens. These questions have not been answered.
paulwalterSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:36 pm

Trish, you can come back with quick quips, but it does nothing to alleviate suspicions amongst many people tha t Labor is masquerading as a social democrat party when there is a grave suspicion that neoliberalism now dominates its approaches to policy, that it is to some extent travelling under false colours.

Why do some folk have this feeling that we ar e being sold a pup.

Probably just imagination. Never mind, we will see when the Budget measures are considered.
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:44 pm

I wonder if Trish has the guts to ask these intrinsic questions when Billy Shorten comes to visit?

cornlegend, have you passed on any of our alternative commentary, or is that in the too hard basket, when you’re scratching old comrades’ backs?
FreethinkerSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:45 pm

Regarding political alliances in Australia, have any of you the chance to rad the book:
Prospects and pessimism
The Alliance Alternative in Australia: Beyond Labor and Liberal
Edited by Robert Leach
Catalyst Press, 1995.

Is a review about it here and show how complex was back then.
https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/10354
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:52 pm

Jennifer
“cornlegend, have you passed on any of our alternative commentary,”

I told you months and months ago I reckon your ALLiance hade a snowflake hope in hell chance and I personally would not be passing on anything .
Surely you remember that .
I was quite up front about it,
Nothing i have seen since has changed that, just affirmed my earlier opinion
Jennifer Meyer-SmithSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:57 pm

cornlegend,

despite The ALLiance concept, there are numerous workable and ethical policy and political suggestions cropping up in my discussion and other discussions.

So I ask again, have YOU passed any or many of them on to Billy Shorten and your Labor insider mates?
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 8:57 pm

Freethinker,
re the article
“The Green Alliance included the Democrats and the then-nascent Greens, the Democratic Socialist Party, the Socialist Party of Australia, the Rainbow Alliance, and other progressive groups and individuals. A joint campaign for mayor and a unified policy development process was undertaken, with exceptionally favourable results. Each party ran candidates under its own name in selected wards, under the general Green Alliance umbrella. The vote result averaged over 10%. Unfortunately, the Green Alliance was not maintained and future events overtook it.”
1995
10%

21 years later, not much change
cornlegendSeptember 2, 2016 at 9:00 pm

Jennifer.
“So I ask again, have YOU passed any or many of them on to Billy Shorten and your Labor insider mates?”

NO.
I will decide what I discuss with people thanks .

You knock your socks off and do something yourself
The AIM NetworkSeptember 2, 2016 at 9:02 pm

This topic is now closed for comment.