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Enough is enough.

larry pickering

I am ashamed.  I am ashamed of the appalling treatment handed out to our first female Prime Minister.  I am ashamed of the inhumane treatment of traumatised people seeking sanctuary in our country.  This is not the Australia I know or understand.  This is not how the people I know think or behave.  So where is this hatred coming from?

In a recent article, I pointed out the part Larry Pickering played in the harassment of Julia Gillard, bombarding politicians with hate filled emails about her accompanied by tasteless cartoons, and how it had been allowed to continue uncensured.  Apparently his talent at drawing cartoons showing politicians’ penises makes him a formidable man to take on.  After all, it’s better to pull your head in and say nothing than to have him draw you with a turtle dick.

Surprisingly, Pickering has some reach online with his facebook page and blog The Pickering Post.  A quick visit to his page, which I don’t recommend for the faint-hearted, shows he is still fixated with all things Gillard, the more “scandalous” the better.  It appears to be an obsession he cannot let go.

Unsurprisingly, he also hates Muslims – all 1.6 billion of them.  Today he wrote of the story of a 26 year old man marrying a 13 year old girl in an Islamic ceremony in NSW.  The man has been arrested because this is illegal in our country and not tolerated in our society (unlike some other societies) – a point that Pickering neglects.

He uses this incident to incite hatred towards all Muslims.

“Islam brandishes its endemic paedophelia as a badge of honour, but we try desperately to protect our children from sexual abuse while turning our backs on the Islamic outrage rather than risk the “racist” label.”

Has he not been following the Royal Commission?  How many Muslims were there in the Catholic priesthood or the Salvation Army or YMCA or Scouts?

“Religion is about the power of numbers. Islam demands the ovarian cycle must be used to its maximum and at the earliest possible age. Catholicism merely bans condoms, but both edicts are designed to have the same effect… an increase in numbers!”

Pssst Larry – the Catholics WAY outnumber the Muslims in this country, and can you tell me which religions are looking for a decrease in numbers?

“Cannot one appreciate the incompatibility of the weak, compliant Christian to the person born to Islam?”

Ask the asylum seekers we have detained illegally about how weak and compliant we Christians are.

“If your parents tell you, when you are young, that the colour red is actually blue or the World is actually flat, you will believe everyone else is wrong. You will have no choice but to believe your parents. This is the power of religious indoctrination of a child.”

Larry I live with a man who was firmly indoctrinated into the Catholic faith until he was 18.  It is amazing what safe haven, education, and love can do to overcome religious indoctrination.

“Therefore their base culture demands the total destruction of non-believers. The non-believers are dangerous apostates likely to convert others to their evils and must be eradicated at all cost.  This is what they are taught from birth and this is what they believe with a passion that has no equal.”

There are no doubt some fundamentalist groups like the Taliban and Al Qaeda that may think this way.  That is why moderate Muslims flee from places where these people carry out their reign of terror and oppression.

“The congregational togetherness (mosque) is designed to reinforce the disgusting policies of inhumanity toward anyone who is of a different faith.  Christianity uses its congregational churches in the same way. There are many fiercely competitive Christian churches but there is only one Islamic mosque… can you see why we are losing?”

Losing our marbles from the sound of it.  My local church does not want to “reinforce policies of inhumanity” any more than my Muslim friends want to.  This is 21st century Australia Larry, not the Crusades.

“The Islamic preoccupation with decapitation is also clear! If you don’t believe what I believe, my prophet’s command is to behead you, that is my scriptural command. I am commanded by Allah and the Prophet Mohammed to do this! I cannot disobey, I am Muslim!

Islam is the only World religion to legitimise beheadings.”

Now you are getting seriously delusional.  You seem to want to project the actions of individuals onto an entire religion.  How many people have been beheaded in Australia Larry?  Or even worldwide?  You obviously have the stats at your fingertips.  Or did you just see that Youtube clip?

“Islam is anything but a “religion of peace”. It is a way of life, a barbaric, base culture born of Mongolian inspired historic violence and inhumanity toward non-believers, and women.”

Gee I seem to remember something called the Spanish Inquisition not to mention the practice of burning witches.  Does Joan of Arc ring any bells?  The barbarism of history is a burden shared by us all Larry.  Quoting things that may have happened in 768 or 1086 is hardly relevant to today’s society.

“The terms “extremist” and “fundamentalist” are misnomers of the weak apologists for Islam. There are no extremists, they don’t exist… just faithful, obedient, adherents to the one blind Islamic faith.  The people next door who you would borrow a cup of sugar from (as the 9/11 bombers were described to be) have been ordered by Allah to kill you.”

Are you suggesting that my neighbours are Islamic jihadists who should not be kept behind a pool fence?  Or that the kid that I gave a lift to to cricket all those years was just waiting for an opportunity to behead me?  Get a grip man!

Far be it from me to make a psychiatric evaluation but can I assure you Larry, I do not lie awake at night expecting to be murdered in my bed.  Such fears are often described as paranoia.  I suggest you discuss them with someone more qualified than I.

I am not a lawyer but it is my understanding that the laws involving hate speech and discrimination towards a race or religion are similar.

The Racial Discrimination Act 1975 forbids hate speech on several grounds. The Act makes it “unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if the act is reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people; and the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person, or of some or all of the people in the group”

The Racial Discrimination act states that racial hatred is against the law.

Racial hatred (sometimes referred to as vilification) is doing something in public based on the race, colour, national or ethnic origin of a person or group of people which is likely to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate.

Examples of racial hatred may include:

• racially offensive material on the internet, including eforums, blogs, social networking sites and video sharing sites

Few Australian jurisdictions prohibit religious vilification, but almost all prohibit racial vilification; if a complaint is made about conduct that was because of a person’s religion/race, it can be dealt with and recorded as a “racial vilification” complaint. In this way the abusive treatment of a Muslim can be addressed and resolved even if – as is usually the case in Australia – the law does not cover religious vilification.

I would call on Attorney General George Brandis to enforce the law and stop people like the odious Larry Pickering from spreading his hate-filled venom and religious vilification, and I would call on all Australians to say enough is enough – this has to stop!

169 comments

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  1. JAQ

    I didn’t think that public figures were allowed to be so openly prejudice about a religious group as this person is. So I suggest going into the report page, and report him to fb. Perhaps after a few thousand complaints they may shut down his page. Jesus, One Nation alive and well!

  2. Gitte

    To be brutally honest, with respect to Islam, Larry Pickering, as odious as he may be, is far more correct than the author of this paper. Christendom’s history may have been bloody, but it is history. Islam is current and that is the big difference. I would strongly encourage the author to read the Quran and the Hadiths and then say that Larry Pickering is wrong. Even ex-muslims warm of the dangers of Islam. Islam is not a religion it is a political ideology masquerading as religon.

  3. Kaye Lee

    Gitte I would strongly recommend you read the bible and get back to me. you may want to start with

    “And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites … And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males … And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones … And Moses was wroth with the officers … And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18”

    or “How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing we have sworn by the LORD that we will not give them of our daughters to wives? … And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh. Judges 21:7-11”

    Do we really want to play this game or would you like to acknowledge that our past and our bible have similar things that could be used against us. Do you seriously believe that 1.6 billion people are trying to behead you?

  4. revolutionarycitizen

    Why didn’t he just title this “10 reasons I hate Larry Pickering”?

    Pickering may not be everyone’s cup of tea, and if you don’t like the guy, do what I and millions of other people do, don’t read his nonsense…

  5. Pingback: Enough is enough. | lmrh5

  6. Kaye Lee

    That is my point rc. Many thousands of people DO read Pickering’s hate. The rest of us ignore it allowing him to continue to foment hatred amongst the fearful. I am saying enough is enough…this guy has to be stopped. You can sit back and ignore it if you want. I can no longer do that. This venom has no place in our society.

  7. Möbius Ecko

    There are Christian sects that allow the marriage of much older men to children, sometimes many at one time, and the US government allows them to do it in enclaves.

    As Kaye rightly points out there are as barbaric passages in the Bible as there are in the Quran, and Christians do espouse and encourage hate towards gays that leads to them being over represented in suicides and bashings. Something some Muslims also do.

    Don’t go on about Christian religions being holier than though. What they are is more in control of business, Western governments and the media through their savage conquest in the past, so in a modern society don’t need to resort to the base extremism of some other religions. They use their modern influence to spread their propaganda and hate for anything non-Christian, and if you don’t believe that have a look at their attacks against growing atheism.

  8. Gitte

    Read the quran and the hadiths. They are not taken by muslims the same way as the bible is by christians. That is a common mistake among christians. I have found that people who quote the bible do not know the quran. I strongly suggest that you read the quran and the hadiths and learn about Shari’a law. You are a compassionate person but in this issue you are arguing from a point of ignorance. Look up what is meant by the terms Taqiyya and Kitman. These you particualy need to know and understand.

  9. Daniel Stevenson

    “Even though the young girl was quite happy with the situation…”

    dude – really?

  10. Möbius Ecko

    I have just looked up Taqiyya and get as many different meanings and understandings from both Muslims and academics as there are for interpretations of passages in the Bible.

    http://islamicresponse.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/what-is-taqiyya.html

    So Gitte why is your spin on it correct and not any of the others.

    Haven’t researched Kitman yet.

  11. Möbius Ecko

    With you on that Daniel. So many paedophiles claim the child they groomed and then abused was happy with the situation, and it was an excuse used by many of the Christian priests as well.

    It’s why abuse of a minor is against the law, they are not mature enough to understand the situation let alone make an informed decision as to whether it is right for them.

  12. Kaye Lee

    Gitte, from the Muslim religious texts

    “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256),

    it lays down in the clearest words. In fact, the Holy Quran is full of statements showing that belief in this or that religion is a person’s own concern, and that he is given the choice of adopting one way or another: that, if he accepts truth, it is for his own good, and that, if he sticks to error, it is to his own detriment. I give below a few of these quotations:

    “We have truly shown him the way; he may be thankful or unthankful” (76:3).

    “The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve” (18:29).

    “Clear proofs have indeed come to you from your Lord: so whoever sees, it is for his own good; and whoever is blind, it is to his own harm” (6:104).

    “If you do good, you do good for your own souls. And if you do evil, it is for them” (17:7).

    “And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors” (2:190).

    I could go on but I have made my point and I seriously doubt that you get your information from the actual texts.

    Daniel,

    If you think I am condoning child sexual abuse then you are very wrong. I was pointing out that this was reported as a consensual arrangement rather than a kidnapping and rape. It in no way condones the exploitation of a child who is not old enough to decide and I fully support the law that led to this man’s arrest. I would also like to know if her parents were complicit in this arrangement and if so, they should also be prosecuted.

  13. lmrh5

    Reblogged this on lmrh5.

  14. revolutionarycitizen

    Kay, Pickering’s influence is based on web-clicks, if those on the left stopped going to his site to find new things to complain about his web-clicks would decline and so would his influence.

    The same works for Andrew Bolt or The Drum if you’re so inclined, people intentionally going there to get offended by what’s there are artificially by virtue of readership giving them credibility.

    I can’t agree with the idea that people can’t say what they think or feel regardless of how offensive or hateful it is, because to some degree it has gone beyond the protection of people to the policing of thought and emotion, and that is tyranny.

  15. Kaye Lee

    It wasn’t clicks or people from the left who were commenting on Pickering’s page rc. I don’t give a crap about his advertising revenue. I am talking about the average Australians that he is whipping up into a frenzy. If you haven’t been to his page you may not be aware of the conversations that take place there. This article from Pickering has, at last check, 532 shares, 525 likes, and hundreds of comments. That is reaching a lot of people.

  16. Kyal

    Git(te) go read the Quran yourself mate… you’ve obviously got no idea.

  17. Kaye Lee

    Gitte,

    ” Kitman (“secrecy, concealment”) is the act of paying lip service to authority while holding personal opposition. It is a sort of political camouflage, for the purpose of survival, in circumstances where open opposition would result in persecution.”

    Sounds very much like Tony Abbott’s approach to climate change to me.

  18. revolutionarycitizen

    Kaye, I don’t need to go to his page to know what it’s going to say, nor do I need to got to Bolt’s because it’s all the same.

    As for clicks, it isn’t revenue, media monitoring companies use that information to calculate readership, and that’s what matters to politicians. Andrew Bolt has the most widely read politics blog in the country and I dare say half of that is people who go there to be offended by it. But it counts to over-all readership, it was that readership that got him a TV show…

    Hate is hate, it is a human emotion, and all human emotions are legitimate and should remain free of interference. Yes, it is concerning to know that there are people out there who hold malignant views based on emotional responses. But the best way to fight that is to present the better argument over time. No-one really cares what these people say, in-fact it is probably the same group of people who go from site to site saying the same old thing over and over again.

    There are plenty of smart people on the left who could quite easily out argue the likes of people who troll Pickering’s musings, play to your strengths and beat them with the truth.

  19. Kaye Lee

    “Christendom’s history may have been bloody, but it is history. Islam is current and that is the big difference”

    And how would you feel if Iraq or Afghanistan decided to come and bomb the crap out of our country because Tony Abbott is obviously a weapon of mass destruction?

  20. booboo

    His comments are wrong and disgusting for so many reasons, but I just want to point out as a white Australian woman who is going to marry a Muslim man, I am especially appalled by his vilification. My future husband is a much more patient, loving, and reasonable man than ANY white Australian man I’ve ever met. He is generous beyond words, humble, and treats women, children, and animals wih the utmost respect. His parents, uncles and aunts, cousins and other family members are all the same.
    On the other hand, we have dangerous hateful twats like this Larry dude, that once again make me ashamed of not only my countrymen, but my race. A VERY small percentage of Muslims mean anyone any harm. But people who openly spread hatred and lies about other races and religions, THEY are the ones doing harm.
    Larry, you sir, are a piece of shit.

  21. Matters not.

    Gitte said:

    Read the quran and the hadiths. They are not taken by muslims the same way as the bible is by christians.

    Really? And you may be ‘right’ but please explain the ‘meanings’ given by Christians to the bible. Are you suggesting that ‘professed’ Christians, one and all, give the same ‘meanings’ to all biblical writings? Simply, that doesn’t equate with my experience. Indeed it’s one of the fundamental reasons why we have different ‘Christian’ religions. For example, some currently believe in ‘original sin’, while others did, but downplay or reject that belief today. What’s your view? Is the concept of ‘original sin’ useful in explaining in Islamic views of ‘human nature’ or should that concept be …?

    As for:

    I have found that people who quote the bible do not know the quran

    Indeed! But then you expose your ignorance with this:

    and learn about Shari’a law.

    ‘Shari’a’ law?. At that point alarm bells rang.

    You have some way to go. Just sayin …

  22. Kaye Lee

    rc are you telling me that this country’s direction is being determined by clicks on facebook?????? We are in more trouble than I thought. no wait…I know how much trouble we are in. Polls dictate policy, leadership has come to mean who gets to walk in first somewhere.

    “play to your strengths and beat them with the truth.”

    I am trying awful hard rc…how about you help.

  23. revolutionarycitizen

    Yes, social media is being used to skew debate, clicks now have some power (far more than they should) and politicians have been quick to jump on that band-wagon.

    Kaye, I doubt we’re ever going to agree on economic theory, but I am always willing to help a good cause.

  24. Kaye Lee

    Ok well that’s a start. If we can stop persecuting people and destroying the planet then maybe we can talk turkey about how to bring home the bacon.

  25. mars08

    Just got back yesterday from my most recent trip to Malaysia. Have many friends there. Chinese and Malay. We divided our time between Penang and Kuala Lumpur. This time we bounced over to Pekanbaru (in Indonesia) to spend a few days with our mate Chester, who had moved back home after working in KL for a few years.

    Estimate we’ve spent about 200 days in Malaysia during the past 5 years.

    I think Pickering would shit his pants if he went to KL during “Arab Season” (roughly May, June and July). There’s all sorts of Middle Eastern Muslims crowding the joint on holidays. Several times we’ve joined them in their bars and cafes… but my daughter can only take so much of their music. She likes the food though. I usually wash mine down with a pint of Tiger, followed by a Vodka and coke while the youngster has desert. Never even experienced a harsh stare from the Muslims (Arab or Malay)… but we are damn lucky to still be alive… apparently.

    Pickering is worthless scum!

  26. revolutionarycitizen

    “Ok well that’s a start. If we can stop persecuting people and destroying the planet then maybe we can talk turkey about how to bring home the bacon.”

    Agreed 🙂

  27. Matters not.

    rc said:

    it was that readership that got him a TV show

    Really? Nothing to do with other ‘forces’ at play?

    If Bolt’s TV show was subject to the normal market forces then his show would have been ‘binned’ some time ago.

    What a simplistic analysis. Shakes head, and wonders why you lack insight as to how the real world operates.

    Can I suggest that Bolt is there because Gina et al want him there, a policy advocated by Lord Monckton.

    And no, I won’t provide a link because ‘there’s none so blind as those who will not see’. Just sayin ..

  28. Nigel

    Hey rick, most of what you say is true, but I would link to remind you that it was William booth founder of The Salvation Army and there workers who helped reduce (unfortunately haven’t stopped) trafficking children for sex by lobbying the government of the day to raise the age of consent to 16. Unfortunately that was 150 years ago, 40 years ago some not quite “Christian” people were running things and running children’s home to our country’s and TSA’s shame. We make mistakes, big ones, but that doesn’t mean as a Christian I wish to go blow up all the non Christians, as being a Muslim wouldn’t mean in want to go blow up all the non Muslims.

  29. Kaye Lee

    I have reported Larry Pickering for religious hate speech. If anyone else would care to join me you can do that by going to his facebook page and clicking on the sun looking symbol next to messages at the top right of the page under the photo stuff. It then prompts you to the next steps. His hatred has no place in our society and it is time to speak out and stop it. I can ignore no longer.

    rc, in honour of our newly found common ground, could I ask you to visit once to his page and see if you agree and wish to take action? Maybe the pollies might get the message that Pickering’s hate speech is unacceptable.

  30. mars08

    What’s the point of comparing Islamic texts to Christian texts in today’s world? The most powerful religion in the West is Capitalist Fundamentalism.

    How many Muslims have been killed or harmed in the name of greed and political expediency?

  31. revolutionarycitizen

    Matters, Bolt’s show gets double the viewers than Insiders on the ABC, yet it is still on the air. Also, Bolt has the highest readership of just about any media figure and has managed that long before Gina appeared on the scene (considering that Gina donated to the ALP one wonders where her loyalties lay).

    People will believe as they wish, I have no time for the likes of Bolt and co, it’s nothing more than the same old recycled dog whistles. If you want the truth about our society and where we are all headed one has to dig a lot deeper than that.

  32. Kaye Lee

    I am reminded of the CIA orchestrated overthrow of a democratically elected government to put Shah Pahlavi in power so the US could get oil concessions. That didn’t work out so well in the long run but hey, short term it did ok for the fossil fuel users. And short term is all we are about…right Tony?

  33. Kaye Lee

    Ok…lesson learned

    “You reported Larry Pickering for containing hate speech or symbols.

    Status This page wasn’t removed
    Details
    Thank you for taking the time to report something that you feel may violate our Community Standards. Reports like yours are an important part of making Facebook a safe and welcoming environment. We reviewed the page you reported for containing hate speech or symbols and found it doesn’t violate our Community Standards.
    Note: If you have an issue with something on the page, be sure to report the content (ex: a photo), not the entire page. That way, your report will be more accurately reviewed.”

    Silly me…I should have targeted one specific post. I really have to read up on “community standards” obviously.

  34. nurses1968

    your statement here was so wrong on many points
    “Even though the young girl was quite happy with the situation, this man has been arrested because this is illegal in our country and not tolerated in our society (unlike some other societies)”
    Pickering was right to raise this.
    It is not acceptable in our society.
    You can’t justify it because “other societies” do
    The 13 year old was “quite happy” what rubbish, ask any Social worker of the impacts
    We may as well accept female circumcision , forced marriages etc, you can use the reasoning that {“other societies do”]
    Pickering is a disgrace of a man.
    He needs to be pulled into line.
    To try to justify it with you logic is plain wrong.

  35. Pete

    They don’t get much more hypocritical than this person, Kaye Lee. Bravo, Kaye, you have penned a useless article which, by your own standard, should be stopped and stamped out – after all, it’s rampant hate speech.

    Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the modern day version of free speech which can be summed up by censorship of anything that is not popular or, as in the case of this article, not your opinion.

    Take this atrociously crafted article which laments one persons attack on a religion, only to openly attack another without even batting an eyelid. Oh I’m sorry, you’re completely right, it’s not OK for anyone to disagree with the widely practised custom of marrying young children off to middle-aged men but it is certainly OK to spout off random non-facts about Catholicism (perhaps you should read an actual history book about the so-called Spanish Inquisition before you use it as an example of mass brutality. The true story is much less exciting I’m afraid).

    Oh and by the way, Kaye, Islam is not a race. It’s a religion. Just like the Catholicism you keep bashing.

    I’m sorry, Kaye, your remarks against Catholicism are an absolute affront to decency and you have insulted and offended the 1.1 billion Catholics in the world and all of their races individually. That makes you history’s greatest racist. Well done.

    As for your opening tirade in defense of poor Julia Gillard. I’m embarassed for Australian women – I know of many many many brilliant, well spoken, well educated and well mannered women that I take it as an insult that Julia Gillard has the title of “first female Prime Minister”. Of all the women that could be in that position, we had to pick the ill-tempered, vindictive and hot-headed Julia. The office of Prime Minister is meant to be one of leadership and example. The Prime Minister is, duh, meant to be above us. The way she verbally abused people in Parliament was a disgrace to herself, her party and her gender. It would not surprise me if it was many more years before another woman was in that role thanks to good old Julia.

    Oh I’m sorry, I disagree with you, do you need to censor me too?

    Grow up. I’m not a child even if you are and even if you can’t handle the responsibility of working out what is good and true on your own, I and most people can.

    As Fredrick Sibert said in his paper Four Theories of the Press (The Libertarian Theory, 1963), “Let all with something to say be free to express themselves. The true and sound will survive. The false and unsound will be vanquished. Government should keep out of the battle and not weigh the odds in favor of one side or the other.”

    So yeah, Kaye Lee, grow up.

  36. Rick

    To the guy who says christian brutality is history whereas muslims are current needs to think again, the Iraq war was headed by christians and George W Bush declared that it was a coalition of the righteous and that it was in Gods name. 700000 (conservative estimate) innocent men women and children died in that conflict, 13 years of embargo’s led to the deaths of half a million children, and that’s just Iraq. If you want to talk historically there have been an estimated 250 million people killed in the name of religion since the birth of christ. Of those 200 million were committed by christians, only 12 million were committed by muslims. The likelihood is that muslims have killed more muslims than any other religious denominations. Christians have been using God as an excuse to murder those that are different since the catholic church started and they have not stopped. America and England are recognised as christian nations with laws that are defined from the laws of God, their actions count as the actions of christians, the same as the crusades that were ordered by the catholic church and carried out by England etc still lay the slaughter of muslim people at their doorstep. As for the paedophillia element christian countries may need to look harder at themselves, it wasn’t that long ago that any city that had a port would have had a child brothel, people as young as 13 were marrying and running countries, even today there are some countries in Europe where the age of consent is 13, the japanese used to auction off the virginity of girls this age and it was not uncommon for a noble to take a young girl or boy to bed with them and nothing was thought of it. High ages of consent are a new thing born of longer lifespans and longer periods of educational process in most modern countries. Not to mention that in the industrial revolution in england children were used as virtual slaves in factories and mines and often lived short lives and died horribly because of exposure to toxic substances or coal dust. Muslims are not all boogy men, their religious texts have been manipulated as have christians to coerce the gullible into doing what they are told.

  37. Matters not.

    considering that Gina donated to the ALP one wonders where her loyalties lay

    Really?

    At best, you are naïve.

    As for:

    If you want the truth about our society and where we are all headed one has to dig a lot deeper than that

    Agreed (about the need to dig deeper). Perhaps we might start with your definition of ‘truth’? Care to respond?

  38. mars08

    “There is nothing wrong with the fair and free exchange of capital, up till it becomes for malicious purposes.”

    I suspect that we may differ on what “fair” actually means. But apart from that, I’m happy that we can at least be on the same page.

  39. Kaye Lee

    nurses,

    “You can’t justify it because “other societies” do”

    I agree…that’s why I typed

    “If you think I am condoning child sexual abuse then you are very wrong. I was pointing out that this was reported as a consensual arrangement rather than a kidnapping and rape. It in no way condones the exploitation of a child who is not old enough to decide and I fully support the law that led to this man’s arrest. I would also like to know if her parents were complicit in this arrangement and if so, they should also be prosecuted.”

    Pete,

    “history’s greatest racist”? I can’t bring myself to answer further

  40. Matt

    You missed one important Christian even, the first sacking of Jerusalem. At the end of the siege of Jerusalem what did the good and righteous Christian crusaders do??? Why slaughtered every living inhabitant in the city and pilled their bodies outside the gate. Great Christian ethics on display…..is it any wonder there is bad blood between the faiths??
    The only way forward is tolerance, from all people, then the slightly mentally unhinged will find no fame or fortune in ranting their crap. Educate your children and those around you, as my Nan used to say ” if you can’t kill them,, Breed them out…..”

  41. Matt

    sorry, it should read event….

  42. revolutionarycitizen

    Matters, Gina only cares about Gina, she is hardly an enigma. As for truth, I have written about that elsewhere. However, I should add, truth is not an absolute, what is true to you may not be true to me, a fact is absolute.

    Mars, “fair” is the sticking point, what is fair is always fair, so we perhaps should stick to the idea of perhaps mutual benefit?

  43. Kaye Lee

    I understand the criticism of my phrasing “Even though the young girl was quite happy with the situation” and I agree with it. I would go back and edit it except I feel the criticism is helpful to the debate.

    My intention was not to condone nor excuse in any way and the choice of the word happy was ill-advised. The point I was trying (badly) to make was that, regardless of religious or cultural differences, children ARE protected from this sort of exploitation in our country as they should be. Stop being scared of Muslims because of their religion. Just as with the VLAD laws in Queensland, can’t we wait until someone actually commits a crime before condemning them?

  44. Matters not.

    Pete said:

    you have insulted and offended the 1.1 billion Catholics in the world and all of their races individually. That makes you history’s greatest racist.

    Wow! Kaye Lee has that much power and influence?

    Who would’ve thought?

    Perhaps we should ditch Kaye ‘the witch’?

    LOL.

  45. revolutionarycitizen

    Don’t worry Kaye, as a former Catholic School Boy I don’t think you’re history’s greatest racist…

  46. Kaye Lee

    Matters not,

    I am thinking I need to ditch the jammies I am wearing and don something with epaulettes. I do love a rousing marching song – I must think of one to use when I march in March.

  47. Kaye Lee

    I am actually married to a GPS catholic boarding school boy and I love him dearly. We were both at university with Tony Abbott and our circles overlapped.

  48. Dan Rowden

    And now for something completely different: What policies should Labor adopt in order to win the next election?

  49. Pete

    Kaye Lee, good one. If you can’t spot hyperbole then why are you parading as a writer? But seriously, out of my entire post, if I was going to try to dismiss everything it said, I would also pick a small hyperbolic statement that was a silly attempt at sarcasm.

    Good job. You’re right. Your speech and your opinion matters much more than anyone elses. You win!

    Let me know what else is good and right and true to say because apparently you are the arbiter of all those things.

    P.s. you most recent comment about being married to a Catholic boarding school boy is the equivalent of someone making a black joke and then saying, “It’s ok, I have a black friend”. You don’t get a pass because you married someone Catholic. And, to be frank, if I married you, as a Catholic, I’d hope that you’d spend more time trying to understand my faith than you would being a douche about it.

  50. Matters not.

    truth is not an absolute,

    Agree! As for:

    what is true to you may not be true to me …

    Indeed! ‘reality’ is an ‘individual’ construct, heavily influenced by one’s social, cultural and historical location.

    As for:

    a fact is absolute

    Yes, but only if one wants to be naïve, re epistemology.

    To put it simply, ‘facts’ are a ‘dime a dozen’ (virtually infinite). And therefore, the debate comes down to what ‘facts’ one choses to ‘create’ and ‘cite’ and more importantly what ‘meaning’ one choses to give to same.

    ,

  51. Kaye Lee

    Good question.

    I want to say 10 things at once.

    Priority has to be action on climate change and renewable energy.
    Next on my list is addressing income inequity, possibly by raising Newstart, changing taxation, and closing down tax avoidance scams.
    Humane treatment of asylum seekers is an important issue that has grown out of proportion to the problem is posed. It must be approached differently.
    FttP NBN. If we are using tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to build the thing then it is unfair that only a very few people get to use it without having to fork out what would be unaffordable to many.
    Education could easily have ranked number 1 because it is our future. We surely can afford to offer opportunity to all our kids and recognise some will need more help because of the circumstances into which they were born.
    Advice should come from a wide range of experts in their fields rather than from solely big business who have one agenda to the exclusion of all others.

    I could go on for hours – it’s the benevolent despot in me. As I tell my family, if you just all did as I say….

  52. Pete

    @revolutionarycitizen

    Nice. So Kaye Lee can rant about poor little Julia and make post after post about Tony Abbott but I make clear argument as to why she is a hypocrite for mocking one religion whilst claiming it is wrong to mock another, and I’m the one that “needed to vent”.

    Tell me, does it make you feel super manly to support someone that demands free speech for themselves but denies it for everyone else?

    So wait, my speech is just pent up anger, right? Her’s is clearly just truth. Mine is invalid because it’s not in line with you but her’s is good.

    Ladies and gents, this is what we get when a generation is raised praising their own self-importance – may I present Kaye Lee and her lap dog Revolutionarycitizen.

  53. revolutionarycitizen

    Of-course, one may manipulate a fact or facts to create a truth in keeping with their self-created reality.

    However, it is with facts not truths that we undermine the realities others have created. By weight of the evidence in support of the facts does illusionary truth crumble. Perhaps it is truly only logic that is absolute and absolutely indestructible when reduced to its core? So if we use facts in order to use someone else’s logic against them it should be easier to destroy their self-created reality and truths?

    In the same way that Socrates debated and undermined the truths held by his opponents?

  54. revolutionarycitizen

    I did report the page Kaye, but it takes a lot to have a page pulled on Facebook, unless it has nudity…

    Mars, much of the world has gone beyond capitalism, as Dr Cornel West argues, we’ve proceeded to gangsterism where the object is no longer to make money but to obtain power and influence.

    There is nothing wrong with the fair and free exchange of capital, up till it becomes for malicious purposes.

  55. Pete

    @Revolutionarycitizen

    As an aside:
    What sort of logic gymnastics are you doing in your head to make the bold claim that truth is relative and facts are absolute. Truth, by definition, means “conforms with fact or reality”. I don’t know how you define truth but I define truth as being things that are true. Like, every action has an equal and opposite reaction – that’s truth.

    If I knew that I was responding to a relativist nutjob, I wouldn’t have wasted so much time.

  56. Kaye Lee

    Pete, I need to inform you of my rules.

    I encourage and welcome debate and I am up for criticism when warranted. When people are making a point I, and many others here, prefer to see reasoned arguments with some credible backup for your argument.

    If you can calm down and offer something non-abusive to the discussion then you are welcome. If you continue in this vein, contributing nothing of substance, just silly groundless accusations and abuse, then I will have to edit your comments.

    I am offering you the chance to use your freedom of speech but be warned, here that does not extend to tolerating rudeness regardless of what Andrew Bolt may tell you.

  57. revolutionarycitizen

    Pete, truth is relative, because truth can be manufactured, facts can not. Again, covered in another piece of writing of mine (you are welcome to read it over there –>).

    “Every action has an equal and opposite reaction” isn’t a truth, it is a law of physics, it is a fact, an observable phenomenon. The only counter is “when the irresistible force meets the immovable object” which is a theoretical and philosophical musing.

    If you’re wanting to get into to the logical gymnastics game I am more than willing to do that, but so far you’ve shown you’re far more interested in name-calling than exchanging ideas.

    Kaye and I may but-heads from time to time but it is in the name of exchange, not in the exchange of names.

    I can also delve deep into the name-calling cess-pit, many years of internet forums and YouTube flame wars have left me with quite the arsenal of offensive language, only, I am a gentleman and refrain from using such in polite company, something you could well manage to try in future.

  58. Pete

    Kaye Lee, again, that’s nice. And well done but I’m not worked up.

    And I don’t tolerate rudeness either. You have been quite rude to Catholics and I would like an apology.

    If I can draw your attention to the flow of events:
    1. You wrote an article making largely spurious claims. A large one being that someone’s comments about Islam, a religion, should be responded to with a law concerning race. Ridiculous. In that same article, you wrote snide comments about Catholicism.
    2. I responded by drawing your attention to your hypocrisy.
    3. You didn’t reply other than to dismiss my points.
    4. I responded pointing this out.
    5. One of your minions insulted me by claiming it was emotive, the insinuation being that my claims were therefore baseless
    6. I responded to this by, once again, drawing that persons attention to my main point – your hypocrisy
    7. You then responded by saying that if I calm down, even though I’m not worked up, I can keep playing here in the padded room of your opinion.

    So. I’m guessing your plan is to just dismiss me? I mean that would be the easiest way for you to be a hypocrite. Or you could address the fact that you mocked one religion in the process of “defending” another.

  59. Sami

    Hi guys,
    Sorry, I didn’t read all comments. I just wanted to share my thought with you all and please ignore my spilling mistakes as English is not my first language.

    I am a muslim and proud of that. Because of the western media few years ago, I myself belived that Islam may have some negative sides “all because of media only”. They know very well what makes you fear and run away from Islam or any other thing or even knowing the true of it. I will not talk much about that cause I don’t want it to be just some sweet words.

    Talking about Australia (I am not Australian), I have joined an international program few years ago where an Australian delegation was there. My room-mate was an Australian and I remember one day suddenly when we were alone said: “my friends will never believe that I had a Muslim room-mate”. He also tald me how he hated Mulims before he know us and some real Muslims. He told me also about a Muslim guy (He was a bad guy as he said) whom he take his expectation about Islam from him. He said that he understood that the issue is not the Islam but that Muslim he had knew.

    I normaly don’t reply to such comments, but because I have few Austlaian friends I decided to do. I only have one advice. If you really want to know about Islam, throw away those blind hatred thoughts and look for it in the right place. Even if you don’t want to became a Muslim, sure you will find some tips to assist you in your daily life.

    Remember, read this without hatred feelings.

    My best regards to all of you 🙂

  60. Matters not.

    Rc.

    one may manipulate a fact or facts to create a truth in keeping with their self-created reality.

    Interesting.

    Tonight, it’s a full tide here. And that’s a ‘fact’ Perhaps I can use this ‘fact’ to explain why the ALP won Griffith. Even though ‘commentators’ are already arguing that Shorten ‘lost’ because there’s been a likely loss of margin.

    Can you explain, why some ‘facts’ are disregarded and others are considered relevant?

  61. Kaye Lee

    Sami,

    Thank you for your comment. And your English was just fine for the purposes of getting your point across which is what communication is all about 🙂

    Not all Australians are scared of Islam ( though some try to make us feel that way). There are many of us who preach tolerance and acceptance. We all need to work together to make the world a better place where every one of us can follow our own beliefs without having to hurt other people.

    The more we talk to each other, the sooner we accept our differences, and recognise that we all have a contribution to make, and that tolerance and co-operation are the key, then the sooner we can move towards helping each other make this world a better place.

    Thanks again for your personal insights 🙂

  62. Pete

    @Sami

    I wholeheartedly agree with you. One of my dearest friends is a Muslim (she is from a minority sect with some really interesting beliefs). She is kind and gentle and lives the best she can to the teachings of Muhammad (Peace be upon him). Peoples ignorance often leads them to do and say lots of stupid things.

    I try my best to follow my faith’s teaching which is best summarised by this quote, “In order to sustain dialogue with Islam, suitable training is essential for all involved, not only so that they can be solidly and joyfully grounded in their own identity, but so that they can also acknowledge the values of others, appreciate the concerns underlying their demands and shed light on shared beliefs. We Christians should embrace with affection and respect Muslim immigrants to our countries in the same way that we hope and ask to be received and respected in countries of Islamic tradition.”

  63. Kaye Lee

    Pete,

    Thank you for that post. I have not critiqued your previous comments because, quite frankly, they were not worth it. Aside from the “suitable training” thing, I agree with you. Do you really need training to be able to be tolerant and accepting of people of other religions?

  64. revolutionarycitizen

    Matters, http://revolutionarycitizen.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/questioning-truth/ covers some of my musings on “truth”.

    To answer your question, it depends on what prism we’re looking through and wether we’re winning or not.

    It was a truth that the GFC was always going to happen, we chose to ignore the facts pointing to that truth because we were “winning” and “winning” suited the ideological prism we’ve created around the attainment of wealth.

    As for the high tide, a very high tide is a response to the gravitational pull of the moon, that gravitational effect may cause subtle changes in the brain, those subtle changes in the brain may cause variations in behaviour. All of that can be argued with the fact that gravity effects the flow of electrons. It is of-course nonsense, but it does show that even a tiny factoid could be manipulated into a truth.

    It also explains conspiracy theories, were factoids are manipulated to create an alternate reality.

  65. Sami

    Kaye,

    Thank you, agree with you.

    Pete,

    I live in a very peacful country were almost 100% locals are Muslims. Many non-Muslims also live here and we work togather side bu side. As you said, respect will only faced by respect. The problem comes when you have to pay for someone else unrespctful attitude were even Muslims face in non-Muslim countrie (maybe not Australia).

    One thing to remember: Not all Muslims lives totally according to Isalm. I know some Muslims who drinks alcohol which is not an allowed for Muslims. The same with Christians and other religions.

  66. Kaye Lee

    Sigh, I was hoping not to have to do this but since you are trying Pete, so will I.

    “You wrote an article making largely spurious claims”

    Could you be specific about which claims you found spurious? the majority of the story was quoting Larry Pickering who is indeed spurious but I assume you were referring to my comments.

    ” comments about Islam, a religion, should be responded to with a law concerning race. Ridiculous.”

    I know Islam isn’t a race which is why I included this paragraph.

    “Few Australian jurisdictions prohibit religious vilification, but almost all prohibit racial vilification; if a complaint is made about conduct that was because of a person’s religion/race, it can be dealt with and recorded as a “racial vilification” complaint. In this way the abusive treatment of a Muslim can be addressed and resolved even if – as is usually the case in Australia – the law does not cover religious vilification.”

    “One of your minions insulted me by claiming it was emotive”

    If you think someone commenting that your argument was emotive is insulting, then how do you think Muslims felt about Larry Pickering’s article which was, after all, the point of this story? And if I have minions then please mobilise them, my garden is a shit fight.

    You have asked me for an apology but as I am uncertain what I am apologising for it would be insincere. If you can be more specific then I will listen. In what way have I insulted Catholics? I would have thought that Muslims should be the ones feeling insulted after reading this.

    You have accused me of hypocrisy and dismissal. As you haven’t been dismissed that one is a furphy. I do not know what you find hypocritical in what I have said. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

  67. mark delmege

    fire bombing of cities in Europe and Japan and even nuking of civilian cities, one milion dead in Iraq, invasions in Libya and contra like terrorists in Syria all at the direction of christians. They set a very bad example.

  68. Pete

    @Kaye Lee
    Feel free to re-read my posts if you can’t figure out what I said. I’ve said it multiple times now. If you need specifics feel free to read your article with Catholic-eyes. You know, ones that would be offended by claims of indoctrination. Or ones that see you claim that a “safe environment” is all that is needed to undo the nasties of Catholicism. Ones that would make broad sweeping claims about the Priesthood and sexual offences. Ones that cite the ‘Spanish Inquisition’ without having actually studied much about it (to know, you know, that most of what people know about it is just made up nonsense). But you know, why on Earth would I be offended by any of that?

    Your claims are spurious because you don’t actually want what you are saying. Hence why I am calling you a hypocrite. You are demanding censorship of one person whilst championing your own freedom of speech.

    Freedom of speech isn’t there to defend popular speech. It’s there to defend the indefensible. You parade around claiming that you want to protect people from being hurt. That’s nice but it’s also not true. You are trying to defend your own opinion and your own world view which means silencing those that you don’t agree with.

    And no, I couldn’t care less about whether someone thinks I am being emotive. What I care about, as I clearly demonstrated, was you or anyone else deflecting the conversation to being about me and my emotions (or lack there of) as a way of not actually discussing the points raised.

    “If you think someone commenting that your argument was emotive is insulting, then how do you think Muslims felt about Larry Pickering’s article”.. Great.. Who cares? Larry Pickering’s article could have been about how awful Muslims are or it could have been about how wonderful they are.. I actually couldn’t care any less about that if I tried.. What I do care about is your refusal to see how hypocritical you are being..

    If you can blindly insult one religion whilst defending another then, you know what? The people that should be insulted are those who practice Islam. Cause you really don’t care about them at all. It’s just popular at the moment to support Islam and as soon as it become popular to once again champion the Atheist 2.0 cause of mocking religion, like Sam Harris, then you’ll do that because in the end, the only thing you really defend is your own opinion.

    And that’s just sad..

    A bigot is someone who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief or opinion and, well gee, doesn’t that sum up the left-wing today.

    Who would have thought with all our knowledge and scientific discovers that the thing left by the wayside was basic human rights like freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

    Sad.

  69. Pete

    @Mark

    I love this logic. If some Christians don’t follow the teachings of Christ and do atrocious things it’s because all Christians are bad. But if Muslims do bad things it’s clearly because they are not following the teachings of Islam and are clearly not Muslims.

    But you know.. Don’t let the truth get in the way of you saying stuff.. Feel free to say whatever..

  70. Dan Rowden

    In the consistency of logic stakes, Pete is on decent ground so far …

  71. Kaye Lee

    “read your article with Catholic-eyes”

    Could I suggest to you Pete that you read Larry Pickering’s article with Muslim eyes. That is, after all, the point of the story I wrote which was not actually about Catholics though that seems to be all your catholic eyes will let you see.

    “offended by claims of indoctrination”

    In my opinion Pete, all religions attempt to indoctrinate their followers. Chanting responses, focusing on worship, making dietary rules like no meat on Fridays, born with original sin, unchristened babies going to limbo (though I understand they dumped limbo cause it was too scary – where did the souls of those unchristened babies go I wonder?).

    The reference to safe haven, education and love was in resposnse to Pickering’s ridiculous claim about Muslims and also a reference to our atrocious treatment of asylum seekers. I at no stage mentioned “Catholic nasties” – that is YOUR projection.

    “broad sweeping claims about the Priesthood and sexual offences”

    Was that this?

    “Has he not been following the Royal Commission? How many Muslims were there in the Catholic priesthood or the Salvation Army or YMCA or Scouts?” which was in response to Pickering’s claim that “Islam brandishes its endemic paedophelia as a badge of honour”. I think perhaps you are being selective in what you read.

    “cite the ‘Spanish Inquisition’ without having actually studied much about it”.

    Actually Pete I have studied a lot about the Spanish Inquisition and historical accusations of heresy. Obviously you are reading from a different source to me. Perhaps you would like to share the nice account of the Spanish Inquisition for my edification.

    “You are demanding censorship of one person ”

    What I am demanding is common human decency of which Larry Pickering’s article was completely devoid. It is religious vilification pure and simple and I am calling him on it. There is no place for such hate and intolerance in our society and it is illegal. I can’t censor him but the law can deal with such hate speech.

    “Freedom of speech ……(is) there to defend the indefensible”

    Interesting concept. I disagree of course. We all need to defend against religious vilification such as Pickering has displayed.

    “Larry Pickering’s article could have been about how awful Muslims are or it could have been about how wonderful they are.. I actually couldn’t care any less about that if I tried”

    Then I wonder why you are commenting on an article which is all about the fact that we SHOULD care what people say, and stand up and call them out on their discrimination.

    “The people that should be insulted are those who practice Islam. Cause you really don’t care about them at all. It’s just popular at the moment to support Islam ”

    I have fought all my life against intolerance from bigots of all description and I will continue to do so. You are presumptuous and very wrong.

    On that note I must say goodnight because I actually have to get up to take my elderly in-laws to mass in the morning.

    Pax vobiscum.

  72. Pete

    @Kaye Lee
    I don’t need to read Larry Pickering’s article because as I said, countless times now, my objection is to your attempted use of censorship whilst hypercritically doing exactly as he did. I honestly feel like a broken record at this point.

    “In my opinion Pete”…I’m glad that’s your opinion. That’s great. I DON’T CARE. My point was that you were being offensive by your claims and therefore you should be censored the same way that you want Larry Pickering to be censored. Seriously. Read what I said and what my objection is. I don’t care what your opinion is. I’m defending your right to say it. I don’t know how you are missing this but apparently you are.

    “What I am demanding is common human decency”..It’s not up to you to define this! The same freedom which lets you vilify Larry is the freedom you are demanding be taken from him. You can’t punch someone in the head whilst demanding they stop punching people in the head. It’s called hypocrisy.

    “Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection.” (Neal Boortz) is the direct quote (which I messed up). Clearly then you are in need of a lesson in freedom of speech and why it is so important. You say that we all need to defend against religious vilification but you don’t actually mean that. That’s a lie. I know this because of how you speak about Catholicism in your article. As I said, the classic racist move was pulled out to defend yourself – “I don’t really hate blacks, I have a black friend! It was just a joke”. “I don’t really dislike Catholics, my husband is a Catholic”.

    Here’s where you and I differ. I will defend your right to say whatever stupidity you want to say AND I will stand up against the stupidity you say. Your right to freedom of speech. My right to freedom of speech. I don’t need to silence you because bad ideas always end up getting identified as bad ideas. That’s how truth works.

    We don’t solve anything through censorship. What we do is create a group of people who get to decide what is right and good for everyone to say and think and that is messed up. Go to China or Russia and see how good censorship is. Oh no, but censorship there is BAD right? It’s GOOD here because YOU are in control. So, as I said, all you care about is your version of “good” being in control. And again, that’s messed up because, clearly, your version of good isn’t mine.

    For, what feels like, the thousandth time.. I don’t care what Larry said because my objection is to your attempt to use censorship… YES! DO IT! STAND UP! SCREAM AND SHOUT! Be a voice for the oppressed! March in the streets for Islam! Build a website! Make a documentary.. But don’t use censorship to silence someone because the day will come when your little fanciful opinions aren’t popular..and on that day, I know for sure, you will make a post about how “some evil guy is trying to censor me!”

    And my presumption about you comes from your demonstrated behaviour. If it was really true, you would have written an article about people painting all Catholic priests with the same brush. As with national statistics, the incidence of paedophilia amongst priests is about on average with lay people. So clearly, these are people that should be defended.. no? The good shouldn’t be thrown out with the bad, right? Sure, convict and punish the wrongdoers but don’t vilify the good people, right? Where’s that article Kaye?

    But as I said, you don’t care about that.. Your “life against intolerance” extends to what YOU find intolerable based on your view of the world. That’s ok. I defend the things in my bubble as well. The difference between you and I is that I am aware of that.

    Great to hear you are taking your in-laws to Mass. Perhaps you could tell them what you really think of their faith..

  73. Greg Story

    Stop giving him oxygen…just ignore the guy…do you really think he is having any real impact on Australian society other than with the other sick buggers that get off on his obsession….your article simply gives him more spread. Get angry at him, don’t rant at him….simply keep promoting a more wholesome message!

  74. Möbius Ecko

    Here’s where you and I differ. I will defend your right to say whatever stupidity you want to say AND I will stand up against the stupidity you say. Your right to freedom of speech.

    Does that extend to inciting race hate or violence against others because they are different, like homosexuals?

    What I see is the excuse of, “Freedom of speech”, being used as an enabler racism and hate, not as an enabler of an open, inclusive and democratic society.

  75. Marfi

    Inciting hatred of any kind does not belong in a civilised society.

    This argument of ‘free speech” doesn’t work when the media is owned by media barons who have their own agenda.

  76. terence

    i approve of free speech. I think people who genuinely believe there is a god or many gods have serious mental health issues. Wishing something exists does not make it real.

  77. Tracie

    While I don’t agree with some aspects of this article, it made me check out Larry Pickering’s facebook page. I easily found what I was looking for – males who believe they can spread rumours and lies about Julia Gillard’s past boyfriends and the fact that she is childless.

    Why is this important to me? The rumours and lies about her past boyfriends hit below the belt and did not allow her to have a private life. Basically, male politicians are applauded for their conquests, but she was completely denigrated for what may or may not have even occurred. This behaviour leads to domestic violence, as it shows complete disrespect and disregard for women.

    And in relation to the fact that she is childless? Because, due to surgery, I cannot have children. Sometimes there is a reason why a woman doesn’t have children. To make women into baby making machines is another creation of the philosophies surrounding domestic violence. And why we should advertise our reasons why we don’t have children for the benefit of those that will denigrate anyway is uncalled for.

    This total and utter disrespect of a woman’s values needs to be eliminated. They all need to apologise, and quickly.

  78. uknowispeaksense

    Pete I am offended by your derogatory comments about China. I demand that you apologize. It is clear you haven’t actually spent any time in China and yet you think it is okay to make spurious and obviously hypocritical generalizations about ‘censorship ‘. Apologize now or I will be forced to remain butthurt enough to post endlessly in here whining about my butthurtedness

  79. Rob

    From over the despatch box, Ex-PM Julia hit the opposition hard. Julia Gillard was always ready for a fight but i agree she did not deserve the abuse that landed upon her along the way. Larry Pickering’s cartoons were cruel and bitter. Shame on his perverted sense of “humour?”. To be honest I laughed at some of his drawings but many just left a sour taste in my mouth. His attacks on Islam is of the same metal adding to the hate we have recently seen on both sides in the streets of London.
    @Pete not sure if you are posting about freedom of speech or yelling at this site for the things that you disagree with. sounds similar to “Peace Talks” in the Middle East.

  80. Jason

    There is no faith to which I lean, not even in the slightest, I’m not offended in any way from religious vilification. I am offended by any spread of hatred, no matter who or how it is done, Kaye’s point is fair!

  81. Ken

    Larry makes some valid points at the same time.

    Have I read this wrong or do many of you think it’s OK that a 13yr old was married off to a grown man ?

    At Larry’s words are just opinions, that adult that is married to and having intercourse with a child should be in jail. I also can’t help wondering why christian wrong doings from 500 yrs ago are brought up in these arguments. Firstly it’s ridiculous to believe there’s a god of any sort floating around up there in heaven looking down on his creation. And that goes for what ever belief you follow. It’s isn’t true, it’s absurd and the reason christianity numbers are falling is because education of the people has improved. Believing in a god is like believing in the tooth fairy or santa claus.

    Larry’s childish banter against Julia is unfortunate, but she’s a big girl and I’m confident Larry is about number 573rd on her list of important things to think about.

    And if you think there’s NOT a number of people from backgrounds other than christianity that wouldn’t care less if you dropped dead in the street then you’re a goose. Some of the most most focussed hating minds in the world belong to one particular religion, and if you haven’t walked through the streets of western Sydney next to a girl in a short skirt then you have no idea what you are on about. Get out and experience these things for yourself. Don’t hide behind a keyboard trying to make yourself feel good by preaching open arms and all sorts of other warm fuzzies, get out and actually try it.

    If you won’t even try it then at least accept maybe you don’t really know the what the truth may be.

  82. Dan Rowden

    Pete,

    Kaye Lee’s point about religious indoctrination is unassailable. I’d leave that alone if I were you. Unless a person has come to a religion, or a denomination with a religion, as an adult they have necessarily been indoctrinated. Just accept the fact of it because it is a fact.

  83. terence

    I started at catholic schools in the early 60’s. The nuns dressed like muslim women, no one complained that their marriage partner (god) was forcing them to wear a veil. Women who entered a catholic church then were expected to cover their head. The viciousness of some of the discipline inflicted on children, e.g, feather dusters, canes, leather straps etc had to be experienced to be believed, angels those nuns, priests and brothers they not.
    If your parents struggled to pay the fees on time the child would be publicly humiliated at assembly.

    this stuff is just a small part of the terrible stuff done in the name of god.

    i will say it again, i approve of free speech. I think people who genuinely believe there is a god or many gods have serious mental health issues. Wishing something exists does not make it real.

  84. Marfi

    Blind faith – be it religious OR political – is a scourge. People need to learn to think critically. No wonder Pyne wants to change the curriculum.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC-fsFT7ZKs

  85. Jimmy

    As much as Larry Pickering is a douchebag, I agree with him on this one. The author needs to realize the distinction between racist/religious vilification: Racist is hating the person, whereas religion is an idea – and ideas need to be open to criticism if we are to have a free and progressive society. I believe Islam (along with all religions) are a shit stain on our history, but that doesn’t mean I hate religious people. We are never going to know peace whilst people are still fighting over who’s imaginary friend is the bestest..

  86. John Fraser

    <

    Having visited Pickerings site once I will never go there again.

    So I wonder if Pickering is referring to Shorten as a whining prick who makes Abbott look good ?

    Sorry about the bad language.

  87. Kaye Lee

    Firstly, let me say that this post was not in any way intended to bash Catholics or any other religious group and attempts to make it appear that way are avoiding the purpose of the article.

    The question of freedom of speech is, however, relevant. I do appreciate the fact that I can be critical of our government without the fear of incarceration. This right is a precious thing and should be protected. But how far does it extend?

    John Lord has written some excellent articles examining this question. Do asylum seekers have the right to make allegations of mistreatment by our Navy? Does the media have a right to report on them? Does Edward Snowden have the right to pass on the information he has? These are all debatable.

    But does freedom of speech extend to hate speech and religious or racial vilification? We have laws that say no. Do we have the freedom to verbally harass workmates? The law says no. Can we discriminate against people because of their religion? The law says no.

    And looking beyond the law to personal responsibility. Should we sit back and allow people to spread hate and discrimination and say nothing? The Royal Commission is very clearly pointing out the dangers of saying and doing nothing. There have been too many examples in history of people not standing up and speaking out against wrongdoing with dire consequences.

    The rubbish that Larry Pickering posts is far too often repeated by talk back radio hosts and their listeners. It is harming our country and I will use my freedom of speech to say this is not acceptable and should be stamped out. Labelling every Muslim as a jihadist terrorist whose lifetime mission is to kill you is as ridiculous as labelling every Catholic a pedophile.

  88. Rick Facer

    Interestingly (if that is a word) the media were all over Julia and her spouse and all the implications and ramifications of her atheism, childlessness and tims effeminate job and speaking voice. However no-one in the mainstream media is even touching Tony Abbotts affair with Peta Credlin and the sham that is his marriage, the fact that he doesn’t live with them in any accomodation provided for him. He espouses catholicism’s when it suits him yet doesn’t follow the basic tenets of christianity such as helping the poor, love thy neighbour etc. I can understand Kaye’s position on catholic’s they have done and continue to do so much harm in the world, such as attempting to sabotage birth control methods in overpopulated countries, attempting to steer nations with influence over politicians, the constant stream of catholic priests molesting children, the fact that the vatican holds more wealth than most countries yet is supposed to exist to help the poor. Scandal after scandal has rocked the vatican for years now and that can’t be ignored. Yes the vast majority of catholics are decent people, my bad vibe with some of them is that they go out and ‘sin’ come confess on sunday and feel quite free to go out and sin some more, there is no lesson learnt, the abject lesson is as long as you are free to confess you can be absolved.

  89. Graham thomson

    Disagree with you. What has happened in the Christian church with children is a disgrace which is being addressed by Australian Law. What happens with Muslims is it is part of their way of life in Muslim countries, but not acceptable under Australian law which they do not want to abide by. That’s the difference and Larry Pickering is right with his views. On the former prime minister, it is only a matter of time before the courts catch up with her illegal activity while a lawyer.

  90. Möbius Ecko

    Disagree with you Graham thomson.

    Australian law has dealt with that one incident. In the US there are Christian sects that allow their elders to marry young girls and engage in multiple marriages.

    What is happening with the Christian Church has only been addressed as there was a massive push by one government and one government leader who you seem to condemn. Before that it was covered up at all levels and in some countries is still being covered up.

    What happens with Muslims is not part of their life in all Muslim countries nor all Muslim sects as you aver. Generalisation.

    And declaring Gillard guilty and conducting illegal activity when numerous investigations including police ones have not found anything illegal is against Australian law. Something about presumption of innocence and all that in a democracy, which you and the Liberals, as is being proven by the State Liberals, want to through out the door.

  91. Möbius Ecko

    “throw” not “through”. Damn predictive text on mobile.

  92. Marfi

    Of the people I know who migrated here and follow a Muslim faith, all are peace loving, law abiding, tax paying citizens. I hardly think you can tar all 1.6 billion Muslims with the same brush.

    Much of what attracts people to fundamentalism is poverty, lack of education and oppression. Let’s eradicate those things then we might get somewhere.

  93. John Fraser

    <

    @Graham thomson

    Absolutely astounding that you are still swallowing that Gillard rubbish.

    A bit like the current inquiry into the construction industry, where $100 million will be spent and a half a dozen people (mainly NSW, VIC and WA) some with bikie links will be caught.

    Meanwhile here in Queensland Waltons went broke owing $200 million (the "donated" almost $500k to the LNP) and none of the suppliers, sub contractors or workers will see their money.

    How does that work Graham thomson ?

  94. Pete

    @Mobius
    Not sure if you are being serious. Obviously inciting violence is criminal but that’s very different to discussing ideas, no? I don’t see Larry Pickering incited people to violence against Muslims or Julia Gillard. He is discussing ideas and opinions. I personally haven’t looked at any of his stuff, so I don’t really know if he’s “over stepped the line” with Julia Gillard. It really is a gigantic shrug for me. If you use your personality, who you are, as your means for employment – that means you are leveraging your character for money. If you can’t therefore handle someone discussing your character then don’t use it as your primary source of employment. Simple. Celebrities that whinge about gossip mags etc etc.

    Freedom of Speech isn’t protect people to directly harass or harangue another person. Clearly, I can’t stand in my neighbours front garden and yell at him and claim it’s freedom of speech. :/

  95. Rob

    @Dan R. just watched the video link you posted what does this have to do with Kaye’s article? Is it circling around the Jewish/Christian view of Hell? Do you know realise how random this is? I thought you didn’t do random.

  96. Ken

    Interesting though when Christians commit nasty and vile offences other Christians speak up against them. That doesn’t happen when Muslims commit vile and nasty offences.

    Möbius Ecko, at least some religions are doing something about their offensive members.

  97. Pete

    @terence
    Good thing you can practice free speech then.

    @Marfi
    Your “blind” faith in many areas of your life is an educated necessity but that seems to be a different discussion to the one going here 😉 perhaps another time?

    @Jimmy
    People will find something else to fight over. Wars fought for “religious reasons” are mostly never about those reasons. You look at the Catholic/Protestant wars in England and Ireland (the orange men marches etc etc). That was never about religion at all, it was about English occupation of Ireland – it was just fortuitous for the media to present it as a religious war. Time and time again.

    I wouldn’t describe Islam as a “shit stain on our history”. To describe such a long complex history and theology in those 5 words is just juvenile, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris-esque fanboy-ism. There’s no intelligence there.

  98. John Fraser

    <

    @Ken

    Using that worn out discredited brush to paint all Muslims again.

    Why don't you get some education from reputable sources instead of Murdoch et al.

  99. Möbius Ecko

    Ken that’s a false generalisation, again. I have seen both in the media and personally plenty of Muslims speak up against radical Muslims just as I’ve seen cover ups and Christians not speak out against Church malfeasance and extremism. The latter I’ve had personal dealings with.

  100. John Fraser

    <

    Here you go "Ken" this should be a form even you can understand :

    http://serco-story.theglobalmail.org/

    Just remember it was written by an Aussie who worked there.

    Not your Pickerings or Murdoch's.

  101. Pete

    @Kaye Lee
    “this post was not in any way intended”.. I wasn’t in the slightest offended because I don’t get offended by black letters on a white screen.. I just don’t.. What I was pointing out was the liberties you were taking in your speech which betrayed your inconsistency of logic – “it’s OK for me to do this but not Larry Pickering”

    I believe asylum seekers should absolutely have a way of reporting human rights abuses. Absolutely. It is a crime what we have done. If countries in the middle east can open up their borders and take on millions of refugees and we can barely take 30,000.. that’s just ridiculous.

    “But does freedom of speech extend to hate speech and religious or racial vilification”.. I play poker fairly regularly and I sit at tables where the knowledge of these laws seems to be non-existent judging by the way people discuss Christianity. In fact, turn on any TV and tune into some sort of comedy show and you will find Christianity the butt of lots of the jokes. You aren’t stopping those people. Personally, I don’t care in the slightest because I know that the truth always rises to the surface.

    Should we sit back and allow people to spread hate and discrimination? No, challenge it. If that’s what you believe is right – do that. Exercise your free speech.

    And there you have it, “The rubbish that Larry Pickering posts”. There’s your free speech. Good. Proclaim it loudly and proudly. But don’t make the mistake of trying to take away his pen because your freedom to write whatever you like is the same freedom that he has to write whatever he likes and if you take away his pen, for whatever reason – good or bad, then you have no argument against someone taking away yours.

  102. Möbius Ecko

    So a personal giant shrug is a motivation to personally attack and defend.

    Go figure.

    How is trespass in anyway related to freedom of speech?

    As to not being able to yell abuse at your neighbour. I don’t know what world you live in but the one I’ve grown up in and am still in to this day has had a considerable number of neighbours yelling abuse at each other, and I don’t think I would be far wrong in saying that very thing would be occurring right now across this country.

  103. Pete

    @Dan Rowden

    On indoctrination – it’s not unassailable. Indoctrination is “teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically”. Ask me any question about why I believe what I believe. My beliefs are systematic and critically constructed. I wasn’t indoctrinated in the slightest. It is interesting that people have such an affront to what they see as religious indoctrination but are whimsical and carefree about all the other well-established forms of indoctrination. I find it hilarious that in the 19th century it was taught, with all certainty, that the universe was 20-40 million years old. It’s science, it’s fact. I think since then we have discovered that it’s a little older. You would agree that for the most part, kids need to be taught what is, in your words, the facts. This isn’t something we just let them discover. This is the brilliance of the modern world, we don’t need to each individually re-discover things to be true in order for us to believe them to be true. I know Pluto is out there because someone told me. Done. If I like, I can go to an observatory and see it for myself. That way we accelerate our learning and are free to learn “the next thing”.

    As a person of faith, I believe these metaphysical truths, the accumulated knowledge of faith, should be taught. And hey, if statistics are right.. people reject it anyway..

  104. Pete

    @Mobius
    “engage in multiple marriages” – well, hey, I don’t agree with polygamy in the slightest. Trying to maintain one female is enough for me. But what basis do you have for disagreeing with polygamy? What is the moral or ethical bad? Or is it just “icky”?

    “What is happening with the Christian Church has only been addressed as there was a massive push by one government and one government leader who you seem to condemn. Before that it was covered up at all levels and in some countries is still being covered up.”.. This game is called, “how to fail at facts”. A document was released by the Church 20-something years ago called, “towards healing” and, whilst imperfect, it was a systematic response and plan for how deal with the problem of sexual abuse. A further document was also written and released called “Integrity in ministry” which outlined protocols and guidelines for behaviour in a systematic way. So, I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is just another example of people not knowing any actual facts. In the 60’s and 70’s there was very little understanding about the amount of damage that sexual abuse caused. The way courts sentenced people demonstrated this. If you were found guilty of ‘interfering’ with a child, you may have got a few months in prison and then you were released. There was no knowledge of the depth of depravity or disorder in a person who did this. When a priest, usually by confessing it, was discovered, they were generally moved because the thought was it was just like any other sin – stealing or whatever – and if they were given a fresh start, perhaps they could overcome it. It’s not an issue of cover up – if something is revealed in the confessional, it is absolutely and strictly confidential. It cannot be revealed. The Church will stop offering confession before they agree to open that up – those conversations are between the penitent and God. None of this is meant to excuse the travesties that have and do occur. Christians claim to live to a higher standard so it makes sense that they are held to that standard. What I do hope it does is further understanding of the situation.

    “What happens with Muslims is not part of their life in all Muslim countries nor all Muslim sects as you aver. Generalisation”… Yes, you are correct, you have made generalisations about Christianity. Oh wait.. You’re talking about Muslims now. No no, you’re right.

    The irony of you doing the exact thing that I predicted earlier is pretty hilarious – throw rocks at Christians and run to the aid of Muslims. Perfect! 🙂

  105. Pete

    @Mobius
    “Ken that’s a false generalisation, again. I have seen both in the media and personally plenty of Muslims speak up against radical Muslims just as I’ve seen cover ups and Christians not speak out against Church malfeasance and extremism. The latter I’ve had personal dealings with.”

    Mobius, let’s clarify.. There are many Muslims who support the violent actions of radicalised Muslims (and usually not for the reasons we think – it’s mostly because the west has put such harsh sanctions on their countries that they live in poverty or at a much reduced level of prosperity all for the cause of the west “staying in control”)..and there are many Muslims who abhor the violence committed in Allah’s name… So too there are many Christians who support vile things that Christians do and there are many Christians that do not support those things and speak out against them..

    Done! We have got all our generalisations out of the way – you can stop with the negative generalisations about Christianity and he can stop with the negative generalisations about Islam…Yay! Good work! 🙂

  106. Dan Rowden

    Pete,

    I respectfully disagree. If you’ve not come to a religious wordlview as an adult you’ve been indoctrinated. However, I don’t restrict this assertion to religion. Secularists of all stripes indoctrinate their children too (but are highly unlikely to admit it). Children get indoctrinated; it’s simply how it is. I would argue, however, that some forms of indoctrination are better than others; namely that which leads to a person to being more inclined to think freely, to analyse and criticise and reflect once they develop the intellectual powers to do so. The level and depth of indoctrination that occurs in a given household will depend on the type of wordview environment into which a child is born.

    My basic point is that indoctrination is essentially unavoidable no matter who you are.

    This is the brilliance of the modern world, we don’t need to each individually re-discover things to be true in order for us to believe them to be true.

    This is generally so of empirical matters. It’s absolutely not applicable to matters of metaphysics or theology.

  107. Pete

    @Mobius
    “So a personal giant shrug is a motivation to personally attack and defend.”.. I don’t understand what you are saying? I was saying that I haven’t read any of Pickering’s stuff, so I don’t know what he said about Julia Gillard, so it’s all a giant shrug to me. I don’t care one way or the other.. What you didn’t do was address the fact that she leverages her character and integrity in order to earn a paycheck.. You can’t do that and then expect people not to judge the product, you, that you are selling.

    “How is trespass in anyway related to freedom of speech?”…That’s seven ways annoying that you focused on that.. Ok, so, standing in the street and yelling at a neighbour..

    I misjudged you Mobius.. You are indeed a master at missing the point..

  108. Dan Rowden

    Pickering’s problem is that he is profoundly crass and uncouth – and doesn’t care that he is. That sort of attitude inevitable leads to views and statements that are expressed with such vulgarity that any point the person may have had is lost in the unseemliness of the style.

    I agree with Pete that when a person is selling themselves as a product they should be open to critical analysis – God knows there’s been plenty of that here in relation to Tony Abbott – but Pickering’s version of that analysis is so unrefined, boorish, witless and ungracious as to be nauseating. It also tends to be astonishing petty and irrelevant, which is what the man himself is, frankly.

  109. Jerry Dohnal

    A lot of valid points, but this: “Even though the young girl was quite happy with the situation, this man has been arrested because this is illegal in our country and not tolerated in our society (unlike some other societies)”? I just have to think of my daughter at 13. Horrific. We are entitled to set our own standards here. Your explanation of your choice of words is disingenuous. The sentence is constructed around the initial qualifying statement “even though the young girl was quite happy”, as if the law in this area should be predicated on the happiness of otherwise of the young girl.

  110. Pete

    @Dan Rowden
    “If you’ve not come to a religious wordlview as an adult you’ve been indoctrinated.”.. I understand where you are coming from but I believe that you are giving too much credence to notions of adulthood and too little credit to young people.. And our problem is going to revolves around the critical thought which is both inherent and apparent to completing a mathematical problem but somewhat hidden, perhaps tending to the experiential, in things that are metaphysical or theological.

    Perhaps I am reacting to the negative connotation of indoctrination? I’m not sure. I do appreciate and respect your capacity to engage in this conversation both intelligently and respectfully..

    Again I come back to the definition of indoctrination as being “teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically”. That was never my experience. Indoctrination speaks to me of the methodology and I don’t know many, if any, Christian families that teach their children like that. I remember having Bible stories read to me as a child and talking about what I learned from them (i.e. the Prodigal son.. when you do the wrong thing, it’s better to come home and say sorry.. David and Goliath.. there’s no need to be afraid of big obstacles, God is with us).. It was observing my parents in prayer.. Listening to the stories.. My own experiences of metaphysical..

    Perhaps I am glamourising the past?

  111. Pete

    @Dan Rowden
    YES! Finally. Someone said it. We got to the solution at last..

    “Pickering’s problem is that he is profoundly crass and uncouth – and doesn’t care that he is. That sort of attitude inevitable leads to views and statements that are expressed with such vulgarity that any point the person may have had is lost in the unseemliness of the style.”

    Call it what it is and let it fall to the wayside. There is no need for sirens and laws.

    When people are prohibited from saying these things out loud, the stupidity is never subjected to scrutiny or scorn and it perpetuates. “I better not say that because I might get in trouble but gee I think it!” But if it is spoken.. it is rebutted and it is analysed and it is evaluated.. and the trash falls to the side and the gold is left sparkling..

    Ahh democracy. Fun!

  112. Pete

    @Jerry Dohnal
    “The sentence is constructed around the initial qualifying statement “even though the young girl was quite happy”, as if the law in this area should be predicated on the happiness of otherwise of the young girl.”

    This is actually the thing that got me going in the first place. In order for her logic to carry through, she had to give the guy who was trying to marry a small child a pass.. and that’s mental gymnastics if I’ve ever seen it!

  113. Gerry

    Just remember, Pickering is a man who came to prominence though his very strange fixation and drawings of the genitals of powerful old white men. Can we really expect a greater intellectual and humane comment from someone like this?

  114. Paul Raymond Scahill

    I thought Larry Pickering was dead. Many years ago he used to portray cartoons in “The Australian” I think. Obviously he has surfaced again and the ” Powers that be” think it is funny what he draws, depicts, whatever. If it is offensive, as it sounds then he should have to front a commission of some sort, and be brought back to earth. It has generally been my belief that when one reverts to this type of humour, those that find it humorous usually have very small mind and intellect capacity. Maybe he has both sexual organs, as nobody could be that insensitive playing with only one. You are commonly what is called “A Pig” no intended disdain towards the pig population. Come to think of it, in all probability, those who see it as funny probably just have enough time to lift their heads out of the trough.

  115. Dan Rowden

    Pete,

    Free speech v Censorship is a very slippery area. I’m naturally and philosophically inclined to the former and away from the latter, but there are limits and reasonable concerns for which no proper solution has been found. Vilification and hate speech are examples where things become problematic.

    As someone who’s been involved in philosophical debate over the last 20 years and also an avowed anti-theist atheist, I’ve seen it all. In the context of my atheism I’ve has to wear being labelled “amoral” by theists with an agenda to push. This leads to a certain difficulty. I’m absolutely of the view that such people have the right to express such an idea if they genuinely believe it to be true. I don’t believe in censorship of people who are expressing a view they authentically hold to be true, however stupid or ignorant it may be. All I can ever do in response is to make the case for the falsity of such a view.

    But, I cannot simply ignore it, because such a view has social consequences, and this is where mere speech evolves into something else. The idea that atheist are, by default, amoral (on the basis that morality can only come from an objective source such as God) is one that can have practical consequences for a person if it becomes inculcated into the collective community psyche. This is true, of course, with all sorts of views that find expression. It adds a layer of complexity to the issue of whether people should be free to say whatever the hell they like.

    Words are just words until they’re more than that.

  116. Rob

    All indoctrination is mostly turning the person’s mind whether young or old, in the direction of compliance or blind submission to a idea or a worldview.
    Religion is often regarded as a takedown of a person’s mental ability to think for himself. Some have suggested even on posts here (Independent Media), that whoever believes in a god or gods is mentally challenged. Anything along these lines of thought show complete ignorance of life. I try to stay out of the way of such posting twits.
    There is an irritating amount of religious bashing or battering going on, not what I would define as healthy debate as seen in the Larry Pickering’s rants.
    Catholics and Muslims backs are up against the wall at this time, it hurts to see so much blamed on religion instead of the violent and perverted individuals and groups.

    Inshallah

  117. Leone Britt

    I agree with what you say, and strongly, except for the part about the 13 year old not minding being married. No 13 year old has the maturity to make a decision about marriage for f’s sake! And what about the 8 year old girl whose insides were torn and she died on her honeymoon as a result of having sex with her 40 or something year old new husband? I am against this official paedophilia that is part of Muslim and other cultures

  118. revolutionarycitizen

    This thread certainly moved on a fair way since I went to bed last night…

    Firstly, you either have the right to speak freely or you don’t, the idea is an absolute. And since we as a society for better or for worse appear hell-bent on finding every limitation to the idea I say it is time we either abandoned the idea and admit we no longer value the freedom to speak. Or we accept that sometimes we have to listen when people say things we don’t like.

    As for the Julia Gillard issue, she was her own worst enemy, she came into political life with an incredible amount of baggage.

    In regards to the religion debate here, all isms require an element of belief, I can assure you that when the Greeks invented that suffix they understood exactly what it meant. All isms are there-fore fundamentally flawed, some more so than others but as long as they require belief and adherence to a pre-conceived idea they will always be flawed. And before anyone says “but atheism isn’t a belief” I will ad, that is a nonsense and ignores the original Greek use of the word.

    Moving on to the specifics, Christianity versus Islam, firstly you have to separate people behaving badly in-spite of their faith and the faith behaving badly via manifestation in human behaviour. Also, according to the Encyclopaedia of Wars religion has only caused or been a significant factor in a ridiculously low percentage of wars, it is almost a statistical anomaly. So, in that regard we can dismiss religion as the prime cause of human violence, simply, humans are quite violent in their own capacity.

    So why do people think Islam is worse than Christianity? Simple, Islam is regressing as Christianity has largely evolved to accept differences in modern philosophy. Does Islam pose a threat to our world? Yes, no more than we allow it to be, if we are not capable of being resolute in the defence of the norms and customs that we hold as acceptable they will be eroded, not only by the intrusion of Islam but also by other malicious forces at work in our culture.

    The sexualisation of our children wasn’t the work of Islamic Extremists hoping to get the rest of us to accept child marriage, no, it was and is the work of largely white Christian men and women who see children as a great means to gain access to their parent’s wallets. That, and perhaps some of them hold latent paedophilic tendencies and are pushing an agenda of acceptance. But as a whole, the greatest perversion of our culture hasn’t been any religion but the growing absence of and the rise of greed without consequence pushed by those who hold liberalism and even progressive-liberalism as our saviour from the forces of religion.

    Ultimately, we and our societies are not permanent on this Earth, we exist in constant tension between those that want things to be the same and those that want it to be different, and the rise of Islam is more the result of our creation of cultural void by continuously moving away from our previous religious roots than a sinister global conspiracy to make us all Muslims.

    Islam like all religions is just a bunch of words in old books, it is how we respond to them is what gives them their power.

  119. Rob

    @RC your explosion of thoughts amazed me. I am against power that has no morals whether Christian, Muslim, Atheist or Anti-Theist Atheist. (whatever that is Dan).
    Our response to religious books even very old or ancient books has been seen to either lead to such foul outbursts as “Jew-pig”, “Muslim-terrorist”or “8-13 year old children want sex”. Other responses have clothed the poor, built hospitals in war torn communities with planned steps of fostering people’s dignity and future hope. Mother Teresa has always been one of those who used power rightly, but those mugs like Larry P. need some undermining like Kaye is proposing.

  120. revolutionarycitizen

    Rob, there are those who work for Planed Parenthood in the United States who espouse the “Sexual Rights of Children” and advocate that children should be free to experience sex. That is really only the surface of a nasty social undercurrent that exists in Western Societies, and whilst the West is rapidly moving toward the acceptance of paedophilia Saudi Arabia still crucifies paedophiles who molest children. (Yes, that’s right, the Saudi Arabian courts still use crucifixion as a punishment, albeit you’re beheaded first then nailed to a cross in the desert as a warning to others)

    The greatest weapon in Islam’s arsenal is demographics (primarily contraception, abortion and wealth), largely those in the West aren’t reproducing at a rate fast enough to continue their populations, leaving the population and wealth growth gap to be filled by those who value procreation above the obtainment of money.

    Libya had the highest birth-rate in North Africa at 4.7 live births per women, or nearer to where Australia was up to the 1970s, the difference, Australia’s live birth rate has only now recovered to reach 2 live births per woman, and still not high enough to grow our nation’s population naturally, that needs something like 2.2 to 2.4 live births per woman to just break even and see some form of upward creep of population.

    So, all arguments aside, for those who fear Islam so much, the only thing you can do about it in all realities is have more babies.

    Both Christianity and Islam have contributed greatly to Western Civilisation, the issue now arises, is this the end of Western Civilisation as diminishing populations get replaced by those who see many of its precepts as irrelevant?

    The answer is, yes, we’re on the way out, unless we recapture our natural population growth and form some kind of common purpose to our existence, other-wise, we’ll go the way of the Greeks and Romans before us.

  121. mars08

    RC: “Islam like all religions is just a bunch of words in old books, it is how we respond to them is what gives them their power.”

    I disagree with quite a bit of your last comment… but agree 100% the sentence I quoted.

    So many religious conflicts have their roots in issues other than religion. In the same way that the “communist” revolutions of last century were rarely about spreading Communist ideology across the planet. It’s about a regional struggle and people finding a banner to fight under…. or being recruited to fight for. The root cause is often oppression, poverty, nationalism, government neglect etc.

    Those fighting in the name Islam today are usually not hardcore religious nutjobs. And by fighting, I mean war… against other armed groups. Sure there is that fanatical group of -for want of a better word- jihadists, but the mass aren’t in that category. Well… not at first anyway. But as conflicts roll on, the chances of people being seduced by the radicals increases.

    As for your statement: “So why do people think Islam is worse than Christianity? Simple, Islam is regressing as Christianity has largely evolved to accept differences in modern philosophy. ”

    I kinda agree, except for the generalisation that Islam is regressing. BUT that’s why I made the comment earlier that what we are seeing today is NOT a conflict between Islam and Christianity. The vast majority of people in the Western world do identify themselves primarily as Christians (nor are their lives greatly influenced by the Bible). As I see it, our end of the swamp is most often motivated by something besides religion. The violence we inflict on others is not in the name of God. But that does not lessen the harm.

  122. Dan Rowden

    Rob,

    Anti-Theist Atheist. (whatever that is Dan).

    There’s a few different ways to define an anti-theist. Here’s one:

    Anti-theist:

    Actively opposes a belief in gods of any sort and to institutions built around belief in a deity. They believe that religion is harmful to individuals and society and that it impedes scientific progress and encourages immoral acts.

    or

    The term has had a range of applications; in secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to organized religion or to the belief in any deity.

    Richard Dawkins is an example. I don’t like him much as he’s a philosophic wannabe, but he’s an example.

  123. revolutionarycitizen

    Mars, if we all agree all the time how bored would we all be?

    I largely agree with what you said, and I am sure the issues our world faces are far more complex than what we’re able to cover here.

  124. John Fraser

    <

    @Revo

    Cheering this :

    "So, all arguments aside, for those who fear Islam so much, the only thing you can do about it in all realities is have more babies."

    Not for the Islam bit but to populate Australia.

    Got absolutely no time for those who think Australia cannot handle a population of 50+ million.

    And the sooner Australia gets there the better.

  125. Ken

    Cripees, not sure who’s worse, cowards that kill people in the name of their religion, or twits that think we need to double populations in any country on this planet.

    More than double the number of cattle and sheep will be required for food, more than double the area required for growing crops, huge increases in the infrastructure in cities, the water demands will be huge, higher numbers of unemployed people bored and looking for trouble, and a massive increase in the number of aged people. Oh right, now John will tell us we can just import all that extra food, meanwhile the population of the rest of the world also soars.

    Yep, Aust needs a population of 50m, bloody hell, not.

    The entire world is over populated, the seas are dying, fishing has raped the world’s oceans, destroyed forests and f*cking nearly everything.

    What the world needs is for the deadbeats, the hungry or the fantastically religious to all stop breeding.

  126. Pete

    @Ken
    If only we could hold hands and bask in the glow of your positivity.

  127. John Fraser

    <

    @Ken

    Marvellous.

    Why don't you and yours stop "breeding" … set an example for everyone.

  128. Rob

    @RC you a wellspring of figures and facts, how do you find the time. i recognise that there are ranks of men & women not only in the USA who are heavily into Sexual Rights of Children. These desperate groups lobby so children can have sexual relationships as early 10 years or younger.

    RC you were posting about indoctrination before I would say this is what is going to happen if children are taught at a young age that sexual activity is “normal” and not to let certain adults leave you behind in experiencing your sexual freedom.
    i know this sounds extreme but kids can be brain-washed as seen in Germany as Hitler’s youth education (doctrination) took hold, good German boys are to be good protectors of the nation and girls need to be beautiful and fit to have lots of children.(early education or indoctrination works)

    As I am sure you aware of the way children are being exploited in Africa, India, Asia, Europe, Russia USA and basically the whole planet. This sometimes only needs a handshake and life of terror begins. In Arab lands it is more obvious reflecting the religious and cultural beliefs that are underlined in some of the posts written here but it raises an ugly head everywhere that people neglect the value of the child.

  129. randalstella

    Ken
    Thanks for your comments. You don’t deserve the snarky remarks in response to them.

  130. Tracie

    Can’t we all just agree that children should enjoy their innocence, that Larry Pickering continually steps over the line and that there’s good and bad in everyone?

    This whole commenting section is becoming divisive , mean and horrible. Can’t we all be better than that?

    The ignorant ones this post is about would have a field day reading how we are tearing each other to pieces.

    Enough, ok?

  131. revolutionarycitizen

    Rob, I only have time because TV these days isn’t worth watching.

    The undercurrent of child sexualisation could very well be the result of the rise of the individual colliding with the fear of impotence, after-all if you have sex with a child only one person is going to enjoy that experience, and it won’t be the child. It is the ultimate form of self-gratification without having to be measured against the performance of others, since after-all, how would a child know what is good sex and what isn’t?

    In Australia there is a frightening rise in the number of girls in the 12 – 14 year old age group that are being diagnosed with chlamydia, and some may put that down to the advances in media influence, but for the fact, it isn’t 12 – 14 year old boys giving these girls this disease, it is clear evidence of adult to child sexual activity in the community.

    The rise of “self” may very well be our own demise, as it is feared that as few as 1 in 4 carriers of the chlamydia disease know they have it, the consequence, at 14 it could be years before they begin regular gynaecological visits and sexual screening, by then they run the very high risk of being left infertile.

    We could be looking at an entire generation of women unable to have babies.

    And we did it to ourselves, Islam or Christianity didn’t do it, we did.

  132. Rob

    @ Dan I am not an atheist by a long shot and I agree with you about Dawkins but I cannot argue about him and his presuppositions of logic about religion, or religion as he understands it.

    But Mein Gott do not shoot me if I find your stance understandable but unreasonable.. In every village in the world except where religion has been crushed, men and women honour a deity.
    Temples of all sorts are widely scattered and are highly respected in most countries by nearly every tribe or peoples on the planet. Is everyone wrong or mentally challenged?

  133. John Fraser

    <

    Now i'm thinking 100+million population would be good for Australia.

  134. Dan Rowden

    Rob,

    My anti-theism is philosophical, not political.

    Is everyone wrong or mentally challenged?

    Without answering that question directly, let me just observe that most people are insufficiency interested in the answer, and therein lies a very significant problem. It would be nice if most individuals could authentically ask it of themselves.

  135. Pete

    @Dan
    I’d be curious to know your thoughts on Aquinas’ proofs for God. Actually, Athanasius had a brilliant proof. Philosophically, a higher being makes more sense than not. That’s not proof by any stretch but our litmus test for what is good proof is also very pliable depending on what we are demanding the proof of. String theorists that are arguing 11 parallel universes for example (that’s an old number, I’m sure it’s much higher now).

  136. Pete

    @revolutionarycitizen
    Average age a boy first sees porn is 8. Girls is 11. There’s your first and biggest problem right there. Add that to the equation of self-righteous parents that value career more than family and there’s your recipe for disaster. Children who don’t know what real love is and desperately want to be wanted. Welcome to the enlightened 21st century.

    I’ll tell you who does family well? Muslims. I’ll tell you who does family well? Mormons. I’ll tell you who does family badly? lukewarm Christians. It makes me vomit when I hear about mothers that rush back to work and put their kids in care. And I’m not talking about families that NEED the money, I’m talking about families where both parents are doctors or lawyers or whatever. They value their lifestyle more than they value the people they created. If you don’t want to be a parent with every single part of you then don’t have kids. The second you make another person, your primary responsibility is them. Above your own dreams and your own desires..

    Who am I kidding? No one thinks like that.

    Sad.

  137. revolutionarycitizen

    The point I was making with reference to children having sex is that STIs move downward from adults to children, in-fact we can track infection progression that accurately, so we know that a significant number of adults have been engaging in sexual activity with children. I used it as a reference to the trend in our society, also to point out the enormous risk our society is taking.

    Yes, religious families do focus strongly on family, not only in the creation of families but also in keeping the family group together. But that is also true of families that come from a strong and revered cultural heritage, in-fact even after more than a century in Australia there are still pure-blooded Greek and Italian families who are every bit Greek and Italian as those people living in their long abandoned homeland. That is because family to those cultures is an extension of culture and cultural identity.

    Sadly, many Australians see kids as a burden or a welfare cheque, unfortunately those we really want to have babies in our society often terminate them because it will interfere with their career and lifestyle whilst those at the bottom of the cultural ladder are having the babies the others won’t. (That is largely an extreme generalisation, however, the boganisation of our outer suburbs is plainly evident)

    There are people out there who do think like you do, however, as long as it is unfashionable to speak the truth in public nothing will ever be done to solve the problem.

  138. John Fraser

    <

    @Revo

    You're certainly generalising right across the board without anything to back up your erroneous assertions.

    Your idea of "truth" is, as usual, so misplaced as to be insulting to everyone under the age of 16.

    Why don't you post some Links that back up the absurd points you are trying to make.

  139. revolutionarycitizen

    What would you like clarification on John? The results of the most recent STI surveys are public, the effects of chlamydia are well known, would you like a reference to a medical journal to show that it does indeed lead to female infertility?

    Also, my ideas on truth are philosophically sound, if you wish to debate them, that’s fine, but offer an argument beyond the juvenile name-calling and you might even be taken seriously, and I emphasise “might”.

    I even stated that I was generalising, if you want a complete empirical article on population trends then I suggest you head on over to the ABS and have a run through their numbers.

  140. Matters not.

    in-fact even after more than a century in Australia there are still pure-blooded Greek and Italian families who are every bit Greek and Italian as those people living in their long abandoned homeland

    Probably not. The evidence suggests that the ‘locals’ here in Australia are promoting ‘cultures’ that have long moved on. The subject of ‘amusement’, at least among the young.

    While the concept of ‘culture’ is enduring (up to a point), ‘cultures’ are forever changing.

  141. revolutionarycitizen

    There is always going to be some convergence of culture over time, however, the Greeks and Italians have remained closer to the roots of theirs than many other migrant groups. However, the Americanisation of youth culture is pervasive, and all consuming it appears.

    Even in Greece they listen to that musical abomination they call rap/hip-hop and throw gang-signs they have no idea the meaning of…

  142. John Fraser

    <

    @Revo

    Show the Link (study) to this assertion :

    "The point I was making with reference to children having sex is that STIs move downward from adults to children, in-fact we can track infection progression that accurately, so we know that a significant number of adults have been engaging in sexual activity with children."

    Show the LINK (study) to this assertion :

    "Sadly, many Australians see kids as a burden or a welfare cheque, unfortunately those we really want to have babies in our society often terminate them because it will interfere with their career and lifestyle whilst those at the bottom of the cultural ladder are having the babies the others won’t. "

    Don't bother to show the LINK to this one :

    "as long as it is unfashionable to speak the truth in public nothing will ever be done to solve the problem."

    that one is straight out of Murdoch and Today Tonight.

    And quite obviously you don't think of your "comments" as being insulting to a whole generation of under 16 year olds because "people don't speak the truth".

    Put some facts and figures to your "Comment" and knock off the b/s.

  143. revolutionarycitizen

    Ok, so you’re questioning how 12 year olds are likely to get chlamydia? Since we know that chlamydia is relatively new amongst the youth population (and rising) it could have only come from the pre-existing adult population. It’s not only logic, it is the only possible way for the disease to spread, adults gave it to children, who are now busy giving it to each other.

    But you can start trolling through the numerous articles, just search “Chlamydia Rates Australia Children” or any such variation and you’ll get all the information you want.

    So far you’ve shown you’re not really interested in the truth so I won’t be doing it for you.

  144. Rob

    @Dan Very nice comment but still nothing lasts forever or does it?

    “…most people are insufficiency interested in the answer”

    I have seen suffering Dan, probably you have too… so I have seriously asked the “question”.
    What about you? Have you seen the griefs and troubles of Job and are still looking for the truth of the matter philosophically or have you the answers.

  145. John Fraser

    <

    @Revo

    That's exactly what I thought.

    You've got nothing but scorn for the younger generation.

    Pitiful character that you are.

  146. Kaye Lee

    After reading through the conversation I have a few comments to make.

    When I wrote this article I had two main things in mind. Firstly, the issue of free speech and how far that should extend. Do we allow vilification or not? Is it acceptable to stand by and let someone spread hate speech? Is it legal? What are the consequences? Which brings me to my second reason.

    Pickering and others like him are spreading hatred and fear of an entire religion and I hear it repeated in many sections of our community. They have whipped up such paranoia that we now have a substantial section of our population that believes that all Muslims are just waiting to kill them and in the mean time they are going to subject us all to Sharia Law and destroy our way of life. What a load of paranoic codswallop!

    This attitude contributes to the acceptance of the appalling treatment being handed out to asylum seekers. Regardless of the fact that these people are fleeing oppression and terror, they are all being viewed as potential terrorists trying to take over our country.

    They are people who want a peaceful life in a safe environment. They are not coming here to behead us all as Larry would have us believe.

    I do not mind people discussing different views but I would ask that it be done respectfully rather than by abusing the person who is putting forward their point. (or the person writing the article – looking at you Pete)

  147. Dan Rowden

    Pete,

    I’d be curious to know your thoughts on Aquinas’ proofs for God.

    They’re superficially interesting, but you’d be aware, surely, that all of his “proofs” have been thoroughly refuted through the years by multiple philosophers. That includes the Schoolmen in general. Indeed, the great Catholic theological “patriarchs”, if I can call them that, didn’t agree each other’s arguments were cogent. Of course, a person of faith is unlikely to accept a refutation for what it is if their faith is on the line.

    Actually, Athanasius had a brilliant proof.

    I’m not familiar with a “proof” by him. Perhaps you could point me to a version of it.

    Philosophically, a higher being makes more sense than not.

    No, it does not. The history of western philosophy demonstrates this to be an empty assertion.

    That’s not proof by any stretch but our litmus test for what is good proof is also very pliable depending on what we are demanding the proof of.

    It’s neither a proof nor an argument of any kind. It is, in effect, a baseless claim. A “proof”, at the very least, must not fail logically in any way. None of the so-called proofs for God achieve that.

    String theorists that are arguing 11 parallel universes for example (that’s an old number, I’m sure it’s much higher now).

    Well, I think that the notion of “parallel universes” is inherently silly, but I don’t care much about String Theory or any aspect of theoretical physics. It’s essentially non-scientific and a strong argument can be made that String Theory is by its nature, not able to be demonstrated. Basically we’ll never know if it’s correct or not.

  148. Dan Rowden

    Rob,

    I’ve been studying philosophy since my teens and discussing and debating it since 1997 (back when Malcolm was inventing the Internet). I am primarily a philosophic animal. Politics is secondary in my interests, though of course it becomes primary in a place such as this..

    I have answers that are more than sufficient for me. Funny, I always found the story of Job idiotic and barbaric.

  149. Michael Taylor

    Tracie is correct. Perhaps we could return to talking about the article.

    Whilst everyone’s opinions and comments have been appreciated – even if they aren’t agreed upon – I think we are just going around in circles now.

  150. Dan Rowden

    Kaye Lee,

    You articulate the point of difficulty well: that words are only words when spoken, but become other things when turned into concepts and beliefs that inform actions. I mean, let’s take a somewhat mundane example – gossip. Community gossip is just a bunch of words, but if you’re the one subject to it in, say, a small community, those words take on a whole new meaning and life. They morph into something real and practical and detrimental. Certain word structures and the motives and attitudes behind them are not socially benign and cannot simply be ignored with platitudinous nonsense such as “Sticks and stones ..”.

    It’s a complex area and I have no ready answers. I certainly know how a person can make themselves emotionally and intellectually immune from the hurt that words may convey (in a psychological context), but that doesn’t deal with the issue of what words become and the practical, the visceral outcomes of such. There is a solid argument to be made that the vulnerable need protection from those with motive to cause pain and even to subjugate.

  151. Michael Taylor

    Well said, Kaye.

  152. Rob

    Dan you sure have been busy since your teens, thinking and wagging tongues together with the best of them as you said:

    | I am primarily a philosophic animal….

    Though I am enjoying most of the comments on Kaye’s article I agree a change of addressing the issues raised has taken place.
    Dan have you another blog or what?…where your primary philosophical thoughts are expressed.
    The Job comment was clearly little snort at Job, maybe regarding Job as a false notion of how evil verses right or God forbid you did not get it!
    Shalom

  153. Kaye Lee

    Rob, I have no problem with the discussion branching out into different areas. I agree it has been interesting. What I DO have a problem with is when people cannot discuss without being abusive and dismissive. I also have a problem with being told that I am condoning child sex abuse and attacking Catholicism, and being told that I do not mean what I say.

    “Your claims are spurious because you don’t actually want what you are saying.”
    “You parade around claiming that you want to protect people from being hurt. That’s nice but it’s also not true”
    “The people that should be insulted are those who practice Islam. Cause you really don’t care about them at all.”
    “You say that we all need to defend against religious vilification but you don’t actually mean that.”
    “But as I said, you don’t care about that.. ”

    And it REALLY starts to annoy me when a MAN tells me what Australian women think.

    “As for your opening tirade in defense of poor Julia Gillard. I’m embarassed for Australian women – I know of many many many brilliant, well spoken, well educated and well mannered women that I take it as an insult that Julia Gillard has the title of “first female Prime Minister”.”

    Well Pete, I was embarrassed by Australian men and women who thought that the treatment of Julia Gillard was ok. Tell me Pete, if stating that Julia Gillard was our first female Prime Minister is an insult, what would YOU have us call her? I shudder to think.

  154. Rob

    @Kaye some people are cold. I don’t get it really, maybe you have stirred their pot being a female PM supporter.
    For me Insults like these are crumbling mortar in a disused house (or mind) that comes from internal damp & lots of rot. I shudder with you.

  155. Dan Rowden

    We judge women in politics by a different standard, one that’s corrupted by a stupid romantic and somewhat infantile notion of what a woman should be. If she departs in the least from that construct she ceases to be a proper woman. It’s stupid. Wanting a certain standard of behaviour from our politicians is fine, but let’s keep it at a level playing field. Adding an extra layer of gender burden for women is simply unfair.

    Judge the individual against a standard. Apply it without discrimination and leave gender the hell out of it.

  156. Rob

    @Dan well said, your comments should be roared out over this mindlessness notions.

  157. Kaye Lee

    It has been suggested that I should just ignore Larry Pickering, that he is irrelevant. The trouble is that his views are also held by some politicians – people who are actually making decisions that affect our lives. Bernardi’s assertion that Islam is a “totalitarian, political and religious ideology” echoes the phraseology of right-wing anti-Islam Dutch MP Geert Wilders, whom Bernardi met and invited to Australia.

    “A frequent commentator on the ‘dangers’ of Islam, Bernardi has the Koran on his iPad but acknowledges he hasn’t read it, except for the passages he quotes to advance his arguments. He doesn’t know the ‘five pillars’, or basic tenets, of the Islamic faith. He claims his warnings about Islam are based on the “unique perspective” he gained while travelling in Europe where, he says, Muslim migration has led to “almost unprecedented levels of social unrest”.

    “I keep saying this is not about Muslim people,” Bernardi insists. “A lot of Muslims eat pork, there’s a lot of Muslims who don’t pray five times a day or go to mosque, there’s a lot of Muslims who decide to drink alcohol. There’s a lot of Muslims who are terrific people, that are fantastic, like people of any faith.” In other words: Muslims are fine, as long as they don’t practise their beliefs.”

  158. Dan Rowden

    Much like Christianity, Islam is complex in its modern expression. However, it is simply the case that Islam, when fully and completely practiced is quintessentially theocratic in its nature (embodied in Sharia). It is therefore quite antithetical to democratic principles. It is not just a religion, but a complete cultural worldview and social framework. This presents a real and undeniable problem for modern secular states in terms of accommodating it.

    We cannot deny this problem exists. However we can certainly attempt to ensure our discussion of it remains factual and civil. Persons like Pickering have no such capacity. That incapacity is not something to be ignored because it is represents a social contagion. Fear and loathing are feelings that are very easily whipped up by rhetoric and this is the problem that the Pickering’s of the world create. That doesn’t mean, though, that the points they make within the bile of that rhetoric are entirely false ones. It just means such people can never be part of the temperate, mainstream discourse.

  159. Kaye Lee

    Dan, if you have time, I would love to hear your response to this. I found it enlightening.

    An Islamic Response to ‘Muslim Street Patrols’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpDJTBBwrKM

  160. Dan Rowden

    Kaye Lee,

    Interesting vid. Multi-layered stuff going on there. Despite all the good things one might point to, what he says at 14:25 is of great practical significance (reference to theological interpretation).

  161. Kaye Lee

    I agree about the significance of interpretation. It’s one reason I dislike when people start quoting passages from the Bible or the Quran. I often hear criticism of moderate Muslims for not speaking up. An Australian Muslim leader pointed out that they do but that it never makes it into the media. Our media would rather showcase the nutcases – it fits better with the “terrorist” theme.

  162. mars08

    Much like Christianity, Capitalism is complex in its modern expression. However, it is simply the case that Capitalism, when fully and completely practiced is quintessentially oppressive in its nature (embodied in Reagan-style economic Darwinism). It is therefore quite antithetical to democratic principles. It is not just a ideology, but a complete cultural worldview and social framework. This presents a real and undeniable problem for modern secular states in terms of accommodating it.

    See what I did there? Now…in the past 100 years… how many innocent people have been killed in the name of greed and how many and how many have been in killed in the name of Islam?

  163. Möbius Ecko

    mars08 a very heavy and long slog but Oliver Stone and historian Peter J. Kuznick “Untold History of the United States” will give an idea of that figure, and it’s horrific. Bankers and the big business they serve have been by far the biggest killers.

    The documentary condenses the book, but the book gives the full figures and sources all the facts.

    Oliver Stone is a rampant lefty, so take that into account, but everything is sourced, much from multiple sources.

  164. mars08

    “…it’s horrific”

    I’m sure it is. But it’s also worth remembering that the US is not the only player on the field.

  165. Kaye Lee

    mars08,

    great comparison – it worked so well didn’t it. Capatalist fundamentalists are indeed a dangerous bunch and they have just taken control of our country.

  166. mars08

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” ~Voltaire.

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