99 comments

1. Kaye LeeDecember 23, 2015 at 5:11 pm

   David Icke is either a master of satire beyond my appreciation or loony tunes.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

2. Terry2December 23, 2015 at 5:27 pm

   What have the Liberal Party got to hide ?

   “At the heart of his [Icke’s] theories lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood (including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson , Tony Abbott and Boxcar Willie) controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian.”

   Maybe he was going to expose Erica and P Duddy as a reptilian.

   I think he’s on to something…seriously !

3. Sen Nearly IleDecember 23, 2015 at 6:22 pm

   it maybe softcoreporn style satire but tony abbott replilian? Dear kaye, it read loony enough to satisfy why the aust government is frightened.

4. Michael TaylorDecember 23, 2015 at 6:52 pm

   He might be considered a bit controversial, and some of his ideas are certainly a bit crazy, but that’s no reason to stop him from entering the country. The government has happily let some absolute right-wing nut jobs in, but I guess that’s OK because they push the same barrow. If lunacy was the criteria that saw a person denied a visa, then Christopher Munkton shouldn’t even bother hopping on the plane.

   As for David Icke, I know nothing about him. Has he ever hurt anybody?

5. jimDecember 23, 2015 at 7:51 pm

   See the liberals only allow Alp bashers into oz like A Jones he’s ok calling the Prime Minister a bitch that needs drowning.

6. Miriam EnglishDecember 23, 2015 at 8:26 pm

   Icke is a complete loon. Michael is right though. If that was sufficient reason to refuse his application (or delay him with extra paperwork) then that dangerously harebrained lunatic Munkton shouldn’t have been able to get in at all. I have to admit I would be more comfortable with Icke, and Munkton and that idiot holacaust-denier whatsisname all being denied access to lucrative speaking tours in Australia, but, unhappily, these crazy bastards haven’t actually broken any laws, so as far as I can see there doesn’t seem to be any way to stop them.

7. Glenn KDecember 23, 2015 at 8:49 pm

   he’s interesting and whether he is a loon or not, he preaches a concept of love. Why in the hell would he be refused entry? Unless a concept of love is a threat to our f-wit war-mongering hate-preaching neo-con government? (P Dutton take a bow)

8. Kaye LeeDecember 23, 2015 at 9:01 pm

   Icke appears to be a conspiracy theorist who subscribes to the world domination by Jewish bankers theory.

   Icke was briefly detained by immigration officials when he entered Canada in 2000, after his name was added to a watch list because of complaints from the Canadian Jewish Congress. Perhaps the Jewish community here had some input.

   In 1996, Icke spoke to a conference in Reno, Nevada, alongside opponents of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act—which mandates background checks on people who buy guns in the United States—including Kirk Lyons, a white nationalist lawyer who has represented the Ku Klux Klan.

   Icke regards Christian patriots as the only Americans who understand the truth about the New World Order.

   Do we really need another extremist Christian, gun loving, anti-Semite doing speaking tours right now? Who is he speaking to? Patriot groups?

   I do not understand immigration law, not that it applies anymore since we handed over dictatorial rights to Dutton. But I certainly won’t be campaigning for this guy to come here spreading his rot. (I agree about Monckton though he has given me a few good laughs, not that climate change denial for pay is anything to laugh about but dressing up and pretending to be a delegate from Myanmar is pretty funny)

9. tet02December 23, 2015 at 9:03 pm

   As I understand it “Scientology”, with their planet Nubiru and its population of “lizard people”, isn’t that far removed from what David Icke is saying. If that’s the case I guess the days of John Travolta and Tom Cruise visiting Oz are doneski, no loss there.

10. donwrefordDecember 23, 2015 at 9:23 pm

    Icke has a valid angle on the establishment conspiracy, his main problem is in the way he presents the situation, what I think he is on about is the 1% rich having control of the Monarchy, and they may well be all part or this group and subversive groups such as media control, police intelligence, military, local councils corporations, politicians, the finance conglomerate, sport, psychology, in fact all of establishment and these people who are the elite would control terrorist activity as the political system requires the public to have a certain amount of fear but still operate within the system and also the message the politicians give you the promise you will be safe if you believe in the establishment which has to control your mind in so far as you becoming a sort of slave to the system and to constantly be in debt and if you obey and give your life to the system say mortgages and being saturated in information that is basically useless to your welfare but having a useful tool to confound your mind and if the public start to get wind of being manipulated will change the Prime Minister or create a disaster such as the Sydney cafe siege? whereby the police can put on a convincing stage show to redirect public attention to a situation that keeps the politicians in power and that of the status quo.

11. Sir ScotchMisteryDecember 23, 2015 at 10:01 pm

    @Terry 2, my thanks for your quote.

    I actually added Tony Abbott to that group at 4:00 this afternoon.

    Reptilian covered that English prick nicely, IMO.

12. Backyard BobDecember 23, 2015 at 11:03 pm

    Icke holds a bunch of ideas we might ordinarily consider to be “eccentric”. He’s popular within a demographic of nerdy conspiracy theory types. Much like the Pope, really (though, obviously on a smaller scale). That he’s potentially being denied a visa is unthinkably fascistic and absurd. There’s a disturbing and gratuitous “thought control” trend happening in this country and, frankly, it has to stop now.

13. WsherlockscottholmesDecember 23, 2015 at 11:32 pm

    He’s a total nutter, but for gods sake, let him in. He’ll be ridiculed and laughed at, but he’s no doubt used to that. Like the dangerous David Irving, shutting them up helps the cause far more than letting them say their piece.

14. RoswellDecember 23, 2015 at 11:39 pm

    Now how could anybody possibly think that Abbott’s a reptilian?

15. gangey1959December 24, 2015 at 12:22 am

    “He might be considered a bit controversial, and some of his ideas are certainly a bit crazy…….”
    Sounds a bit like our immediately ex-pm, and no-one stopped him at the border. Sadly.
    After all, ta was far more dangerous than that deadly snake from china that got past everyone from border farce who should have found it but didn’t because it was cunningly disguised as a snake in a cardboard box.
    Let Icke in, and let Australians decide how full of shit he is.

16. Ishe BogeDecember 24, 2015 at 1:15 am

    Sadly, we have lost our freedom of hearing. David Icke and Dr Sherri Tenpenny might have had legitimate concerns, just we weren’t allowed to hear them.

17. JexpatDecember 24, 2015 at 2:17 am

    Ishe Boge:

    I don’t have a particular opinion on Icke- he’s so far off into the nutter domain as to render him unintelligable, but Tenpenny is a dangerous grifter who intentionally harms a lot of people.

    Either way though, you can indulge yourself with as much as you like of them using the very device you’ve written the above post with.

18. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 9:03 am

    Progessive? Open mindfulness?

    Nah. Some here embrace the hypocracy of the cons.
    I’ve watched a few of Icke vids and he has many valid points.
    I dont blame him for going into the reptilian ideology considering the behaviours and mannerisms of the cons.

    Didn’t I read on the forum about how many of you now choose to not be so offensive with your words? And what of your ideas on irony?

    With what we do know now, maybe it is time to focus less on the word ‘theory’ and more on the recognition of ‘conspiracy’.

    I’d usually end with a denigrating remark as to how far into the septic this nation has fallen, but there maybe a better way.

19. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 9:21 am

    Jeffrey, calling Icke a dangerous lunatic isn’t an insult. It is a statement of fact. He is crazy. He considers the ruling elite to be non-human monsters. That is not only utterly divorced from reality (crazy), it is also incredibly dangerous. Granted that many of the elite are pretty horrid people who have absolutely no empathy for the rest of us, there are nevertheless many, many wealthy people who are working hard to turn things around and make Australia a better place for us all. Those people are our allies. We need them no less than all the smart, capable people among us plebs. To have Icke foment bloody racist (anti-semitic) revolution is scary and dangerous in the extreme.

    I don’t think someone like him should be allowed to spread his crazy message of hate. I’ve mentioned before how we need to use the short-lived paradox of being intolerant of intolerance to deal with this kind of danger. Being open, accepting, and tolerant should not mean allowing intolerant bastards to walk all over our generally welcoming nature. We should not be giving dangerously intolerant people a platform to make hundreds of thousands of dollars on speaking tours to further their divisive agendas. They have no solutions, only fear and hate.

20. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 9:33 am

    I can see your point Miiriam.
    But I recognise Ickes belief of global economics and its impending crash and the villians that choreograph it.

    I have also noticed a difference between jewish faith and zionist rule and my assumption is that icke is referencing zionist rulers as opposed to the faithful of Judaism.

21. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 9:39 am

    I agree about the problems caused by giving these people a platform. If he wants to come here on a holiday is one thing but if he wants a working visa I would imagine he would have to show we have a need for his skills. I can’t get a working visa when I travel either.

    When Sherri Tenpenny wanted to come here she on a speaking tour about anti-vaccination rubbish, she ended up cancelling the tour because she said her personal safety was at risk because there had been threats made about bombing venues. What she neglected to mention was the threat was made by one of her supporters towards a venue that cancelled her talk.

    Those are the sort of people that these loons whip up into an ill-informed frenzy that puts us all at risk.

22. mars08December 24, 2015 at 9:44 am

    Just to condense the previous comment by Kaye Lee…. “Donald Trump”

    Simples….

23. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 9:52 am

    You agree with censorship?

    yeah, not so simple.

24. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 9:56 am

    A white male gunman killed three people, including one police officer, and injured nine others November 27 at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs.

    Since 1977, according to NAF, there have been eight murders, 17 attempted murders, 42 bombings, and 186 arsons against abortion clinics and providers.

    Threats, vandalism, and violence against abortion providers and clinics have escalated since this summer, when anti-abortion activists released deceptively edited videos that accused Planned Parenthood of “selling baby parts.”

    http://www.vox.com/2015/11/28/9810572/abortion-attacks-planned-parenthood-colorado

25. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 10:02 am

    How is Icke being censored? He can write, say and film whatever he pleases. All that is happening is he is being denied the right to work in Australia, something that happens to the vast majority of people who travel here.

26. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:12 am

    Get real.
    Dutton decides. And what are duttons reasons?

    what about his climate change denier mates?

    It comes down to insight/forsight/education.

    If you wanted to argue the points of controversy eg trump and were told you couldn’t? What world view is the populace left with?

    9/11 controversy gets shot down here on a regular basis, but it wouldnt surprise me if the alternative theorys have greater validity than msm narrative.

    and how would you know if you dont find out for yourself?

    That is the key point.
    find out for yourself.

27. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 10:30 am

    I assure you that “finding out for myself” is something I always try to do. You have completely ignored my point about working visas. I cannot see any category under which Icke would qualify. I feel the same about Monckton.

    No-one is telling Icke he can’t argue his point of view. The fact that we are discussing it shows he can.

    As for the 9/11 conspiracy, it does not pass the common sense test for me. I have read the official reports, the debunking of same, the debunk debunk and the retaliatory triple debunk. I fail to see what it is achieving. How you intend to “find out for yourself” the truth of that matter escapes me and I, for one, do not want to waste time on it. There are far more pressing issues at hand than apportioning blame for historical incidents that you cannot change.

    I do agree that Dutton should not have sole discretion in any circumstances and that Mike Pezzullo is a nasty piece of work.

28. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:39 am

    I guess I didnt address the obvious question of working visas, due to the fact that he has previously worked here in recent years.

    so what reason disqualifies him?
    And if trump wants to do a talking circuit?

    as for 911.
    where is the plane at the pentagon
    the smoking hole in the ground where is the plane

    Plane = plane, passengers, luggage, seats and other parts of plane.

    further more
    what did Iraq have to do with it?

    there are many reasons for doubt.

29. Matthew OborneDecember 24, 2015 at 10:53 am

    It is a hard one, yes feedom of speech yadda yadda yadda, I know someone who went down the David Icke/Alex Jones path.
    They “seek the truth” we are “sheeples”

    The effect on her life was damaging, Chemtrails, alien lizards, new world order, juice container linings having mind controlling chemicals, our water being doped up to keep us from seeing the truth. The path to being a true human was finding out about all sorts of weird nonsense.

    Her life is back on track, she even looks better for freeing herself from most of the nonsense they (Icke and co.) peddle.

    The sensationalist conspiracy junk had the mayan calendar. ( my Amcal calendar ran out at roughly the same time )

    It is big business, 2012 was made into an expensive Hollywood movie so conspiracy is popular and it sells.

    During those times Mal Brough tried to help install a Liberal Government in what one judge summarised as an abuse of process but conspiracies like that didnt tickle her fancy, she didnt even see that one coming.

    We had Gerald Celente correctly predict the bad behavior of governments up until the point the decided to predict it would not only continue but it would amplify, causing him to buy a place in the middle of nowhere for fear of the world falling apart.

    There are many very well produced documentaries available on youtube that could convince a non critical person of just about anything.

    Was The moon landing a Hoax? is Elvis still alive, these conspiracies dont really hurt anybody, Ickes theories do, Alex Jones’s theories do.

    According to endgame a documentary of Jones’s we live in a time where millions of Americans are supposed to be held in Fema camps, they are not.

    Icke has caused many people to not live their lives fruitfully, he helped their descent into madness.

    Carl Sagan Pointed out the danger of censoring using Velikovski’s theory on how Venus came to be where it is now. Simply saying we should allow people to put forward notions that may seem ridiculous because they may put forward something oneday that is not.

    David Irving the well known holocaust denier helped bring to light to bombing of Dresden, Dresden had no real defences and the bombing was done to shock germany, many recognise it as a war crime now. He is a good example of someone with views we find repugnant who actually contributed something.

    Graham Hancock has a colourful history but he too has contributed, the idea of 10 000 BC being a time when we all lived in caves is now known to be wrong.

    Freedom to send people nuts, well the government didnt think Icke had that right and nor should most people.

    Icke and Jones’s as well as many others make their money peddling a view of the world that is damaging to mental health if a person buys into it.

30. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 11:06 am

    I hesitate to engage on the Pentagon thing but….

    “Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. “It was absolutely a plane, and I’ll tell you why,” says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. “I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box.” Kilsheimer’s eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: “I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?”

    Two people on the aircraft made phone calls to contacts on the ground.

    

31. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 11:22 am

    They are not unknown people at all.

    At 09:12, flight attendant Renee May called her mother, Nancy May, in Las Vegas. During the call, which lasted nearly two minutes, May said her flight was being hijacked by six persons, and staff and passengers had been moved to the rear of the airplane. May asked her mother to contact American Airlines, which she and her husband promptly did; American Airlines was already aware of the hijacking. Between 09:16 and 09:26, passenger Barbara Olson called her husband, United States Solicitor General Theodore Olson, and reported that the airplane had been hijacked and that the assailants had box cutters and knives. She reported that the passengers, including the pilots, had been moved to the back of the cabin and that the hijackers were unaware of her call. A minute into the conversation, the call was cut off. Theodore Olson contacted the command center at the Department of Justice, and tried unsuccessfully to contact Attorney General John Ashcroft. About five minutes later, Barbara Olson called again, told her husband that the “pilot” (possibly Hanjour on the cabin intercom) had announced the flight was hijacked, and asked, “what do I tell the pilot to do?” Ted Olson asked her location and she reported the plane was flying low over a residential area. He told her of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Soon afterward, the call cut off again.

    If that flight didn’t crash into the Pentagon, where is it?

    But yes, I agree, we would be far better served discussing the present state of our nation.

32. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 11:22 am

    https://youtu.be/_0eC3uns3pA

    911 dan rather, would rather not.
    trainwrecked.

    reasons for doubt?

    the sad thing is if it is a false flag attack. It is the reason for the geopolitical quagmire of today.

33. Lawrence S. RobertsDecember 24, 2015 at 11:23 am

    If he had been a neuroscientist and espoused the lizard part of the brain: no one would have noticed.

34. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 11:27 am

    Sorry kay.
    the ‘unknown indivi’
    Was in response to the previous post.

35. Matthew OborneDecember 24, 2015 at 11:38 am

    Dick Cheney hesitated for a damaging amount of time.
    did he hesitate because he wanted it to happen or was he frozen at the thought of shooting down a plane full of american citizens.
    Conspiracy nutters never talk of the second option.

36. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 11:49 am

    This is the hypocracy we speak of.
    You call them conspiracy ‘nutters’ yet you know not of the truth.

    one person watching utube that develops a psychiatirc illness is not a reason to say that videos cause psychiatric illness.

    psychiatric illness is biochemical disposition.
    pychological trauma is different again.

    Isis get their weapons from????
    Religion is the cause???
    Russia is bad????
    US is honourable???

37. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 11:57 am

    Not one of those questions has a definitive answer.

38. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 12:04 pm

    Exactly

39. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 12:13 pm

    I fail to see what that has to do with “the truth” as you put it.

    Four planes crashed that day. There is no evidence of it being an inside job. The supposition is far fetched and the debate, for me, pointless.

    (Note to self….so why are you having it? Stop now)

40. mars08December 24, 2015 at 12:17 pm

    Solar radiation comes from????
    Influenza is caused by???
    Strychnine is poisonous????

41. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 12:23 pm

    Jeffrey, it is not hypocrisy to recognise a dangerous lunatic to be what he is. But to do nothing in the face of him spreading such craziness further is paralysis.

    Asking questions is a good thing if you are genuinely interested in the answers. To keep asking them while hoping for an exciting conspiracy is not a good thing to do.

    There are some conspiracies, but most are not the kind of wild fantasies that feed the fevered dreams of those who love conspiracy theories. Monsanto funnels huge amounts of money into government in an effort to make laws that benefit them, but disadvantage humanity. That is a genuine conspiracy. The USA wanted a war in Vietnam because they bought into the “Domino Effect” conspiracy theories propagated by some loons in the Rand think tank. So there you have a false conspiracy theory generating a real conspiracy. But most conspiracies are not genuine because they have simple, pedestrian explanations. Unfortunately, those who love conspiracies, because it quickens their pulse, refuse to accept those obvious explanations because they are not outlandish enough.

    I have a friend who is a lovely guy, but he believes all manner of crazy conspiracy theories. There is no arguing with him because it is a case of the more impossible the explanation, the more likely he is to believe it. He believes crop circles are made by aliens as messages. When asked why aliens would travel tens or hundreds of trillions of kilometers to make some unintelligible marks in crops he is unable to answer. When it is pointed out that people have owned up to making crop circles as pranks, he is still unable to abandon his belief.

    Reality is not something you get to pick and choose based on what excites you. The truth is often unexciting and boring. That doesn’t make it any the less real.

42. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    miriam,

    you are a very wise woman

43. mars08December 24, 2015 at 12:47 pm

    @miriamenglish… You say “… most conspiracies are not genuine because they have simple, pedestrian explanations.”

    True enough. Unfortunately the loopy crop circle, chemtrail, lizard people, Illuminati theories make it damn difficult to convince people of the verified, documented conspiracies. Operation Northwoods and the Protocol of Sèvres come immediately to mind.

44. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    To kay and mars.
    those questions are answered by msm everyday. But those answers aren’t entire truths.
    Hence a need to reconfirm the understanding that most msm is ‘entertainment value’.

    Miriam.
    i understand you dont want false information to be disseminated.
    but restricting a person from speaking does not automatcally create a truth.

    let him speak. If you have a point to debate then debate.

    Look at abbot and the ‘$100 lamb roast’

    Where were the calls of censorship then?
    Belief of detrimental ideas that he has every right to speak, but we need to maintain our right of reply.

    It shouldnt need to be said but if you believe that coal is not good for humanity and you were denied that right to say so. Then the abbot type will monopolize the dissemination of information.

    I dont know all truths, but when I absolutely know, an absolute truth. I wont back down.

45. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 1:05 pm

    To clarify.
    i am open minded about aliens for several reasons but mostly due to ancient artifacts. And recent unexplained atmospheric events.

    i dont necessarily follow the chem trails or mass mind control with flouridation.

    but i do believe that govts are always out for money and population control.

    I believe that the levels of pollutive processes are having detrimental effects on many areas of the environment and i also consider the msm to be full of crap.

46. mars08December 24, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    @Jeffrey…. I get what you’re saying, I really do. Until recently it’s exactly the way I looked at things.

    But it’s not a perfect world. People are disengaged, distracted, frightened, uneducated and angry. The amoral, sensationalist msm (as you pointed out) are incapable or unwilling to inform the masses. Our opportunistic ruling class adds to the confusion.

    Let them speak and then confont and engage them in rational debate? Fine in an ideal world.

    But here’s part of what happens when people reject the debate and cling to their bigotry… http://www.theguardian.com/technology/20­15/dec/23/victorian-woman-charged-over-c­omments-about-islam-on-facebook ….

    Eventually people get killed.

    Free speech is not without boundaries. Especially when that free speech is laced with misinformation, misdirection and malice.

47. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    I know.
    My brother is dead because of lies.

    The only answer is education.

    As I previously asked “whom decides on what censorship and what are their reasons?”

48. BacchusDecember 24, 2015 at 2:26 pm

    Jeffrey – quick rule of thumb:

    If you ask a question with who or whom, if you can answer with “he”, the correct word is “who”; if you can answer with “him”, the correct word is “whom” 😉

    “Who decides…” He decides…

49. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 2:26 pm

    Hank Green and his brother John Green are two very smart guys who produce a large number of educational videos on YouTube. SciShow is one of my favorites, also crashcourse. They make quite a few others. Their vlogbrothers videos are conversations about pretty-much anything. Occasionally they even interview people like Bill Gates about his efforts to alleviate sickness and poverty in Africa.

    But some of their videos are utterly hilarious. This is one of my favorites:
    Top 5 Ridiculous Conspiracy Theories
    

    There are many brilliant things on YouTube these days. I love Emilie Graslie’s The Brain Scoop, Salman Khan’s The Khan Academy, the quick and informative Minute Physics, M J Lorton’s talks about solar power and test equipment, C G P Grey’s fascinating occasional examinations of interesting topics, and much, much more (I could fill a page with oodles of similarly wonderful links). With this incredible wealth of information at our fingertips I really don’t understand why people go in search of unlikely conspiracies with which to confuse themselves. But then again, I don’t understand why people choose to delude themselves with equally improbable beliefs in gods, ghosts, and reincarnation.

50. mars08December 24, 2015 at 2:30 pm

    We have always had restrictions on what we can say…. in part because not everyone has the same influence or an equal ability to determine fact from fiction.

    “whom decides on what censorship and what are their reasons?”

    That’s a fair question.

51. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 2:31 pm

    Cool.
    thanks bacchus

52. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 2:46 pm

    Yes mars and further complications, when for many years it was only simplex comm’, now we not only have a right of relpy we have a means. A means to contest accepted versions of ‘facts’.

    With Icke, I watched a few of his vids and could not see him as dangerous enough to censor. I actually think he is a good guy with some whacky ideas, and others that are reasonable.

    Abbot, brandis, morriso, hunt and even the use of dwyer to tell us that even with an ‘australia tax’ the multicorps cant turn a profit. These few are far more dangerous but their ideology ‘seems’ less whacky.

    Intelligent debate, can not only clarify but also inspire greater cogniscience and further develop sane ideologies.

    Censorship seems to achieve the opposite.

53. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 2:55 pm

    Jeffrey, the topic of free speech and censorship is a dangerous one. Embracing either extreme leads to terrible effects. It would be great to be able to say we should have completely open, free speech with no holds barred, but we humans are not mature enough for it yet. One day, perhaps… but there are so many warped people with dangerous hidden agendas that it just can’t be done yet. People who blindly hate Jews, or Muslims, or blacks, or Asians and will maliciously push violence; people who emphatically believe the most preposterous things and push people with an unstable grip on reality over the precipice. Or people who simply lie for money, like Charles Berlitz of the Bermuda Triangle infamy — yes he lied, made it up for money.

    It is a bit like nuclear power. Nuclear power is a wonderful source of energy that could solve a lot of problems… except that we are not mature enough for it. We use it for weapons and take shortcuts on safety, cover up accidents, and victimise those who point out problems. Spreading highly radioactive isotopes around on the surface of the planet, especially when they have half-lives of thousands of years, is a really stupid thing to do, but we readily do it if not constrained.

    Similarly, we need safeguards to prevent free speech going badly wrong. We need laws against hate speech and we need a law like in Canada where people can be prevented from propagating untruths. It is messy and not a nice clean solution, but unfortunately it is where we are. We are messy creatures.

54. mars08December 24, 2015 at 2:57 pm

    Intelligent debate…. at a time when anyone with a keyboard can advertise any opinion? At a time when a clueless sensationalist media doesn’t do basic fact checking? At a time when politicians encourage fear and ignorance in order to win some easy votes? At a time when the power of mass media is concentrated in so few hands? At a time when the public are told to trust celebrities and mistrust intellect? At a time when traditional authority figures have shown themselves to be self-serving and corrupt? At a time when education has been reduced to a score card?

    Good luck with that!

55. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    Miriam.
    one of my recently discovered favourites is the weather report starting with the sun.

    suspiciousobserver.

    like living in the future….now.

56. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 3:24 pm

    Mars for some reason everything you said resonates as a reason for free speech.
    If this government shot people that spoke out against them, what would our nation be?

    Miriam.
    Once again it comes down to education. Intelligent debate, and said debate should not be only for the elite.

    As far as nuclear power. Fusion would be better as I understand it. But once again debate is stifled.

    Copernicus first claimed a solar centric solar system.
    Galileo propagated this ideology and suffered. Approx 50 years after his death, the ruling elite recognised he was right.

    Who decides. Pell, Abbott, Dutton?

    What I learn’t at school (70’s & 80’s), most of it, is now completely wrong.

    I learned of aboriginal trials, tribulations and culture mostly from oversees visitors.
    Kind of embarrassing when a person in germany learnt more about aboriginal culture and history than I did at my local school in Perth.

57. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 3:58 pm

    Who decides. Pell, Abbott, Dutton?

    Obviously I wouldn’t think those kinds of clueless, amoral fools should have the last word. As I said, we have laws against hate speech. We need to make use of them. We need laws to prevent the propagation of untruths (both unwitting and intentional). The people, through the legal process decide on censorship. Is it perfect? No. Could it be misused? Yes. But at our current level of development I don’t think we have a better option. We are smarter and better informed than ever before, but those who would spread lunacy or malicious lies are more able to do so than ever before.

58. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 4:14 pm

    Most of what was taught when I was at school (60s, 70s) remains true today. It is true that a lot of the science has been updated and history revised, but that’s a good thing. Information about the relationship between temperature, pressure, and volume of a gas remains true, as does most of the information about animal classification and anatomy. We have one less planet and many, many more moons in the solar system, but it hasn’t really changed much. The information about magnetism, electricity, resistance, capacitance, and electromagnetic waves hasn’t really changed at all. What we learned in English is probably exactly the same as what kids today learn. Geology now has accepted continental drift, but not much else has changed in that field. I’ve noticed that kids today learn lots more maths than we did, which makes me rather envious, but none of what we learned back then has turned out to be false.

    I don’t think discussion of nuclear fusion is stifled. Those who work on it would love there to be more talk of and enthusiasm for it, but it is kinda understandable that after decades of it being almost here people tend to yawn. That’s not the same thing as stifling debate.

59. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 4:23 pm

    Right, but at this point it is dutton that decides.

    If malicious lies are disseminated and your attempts to dispel the myths and open dialogue for truth were obstructed by a government minister with a vested interest.
    Then you have a populace that lives under an umbrella of lies.

    A very handy mechanism of control.

    consider a boogie board that travels from Brisbane to Sydney.
    consider no trial for a burnt farmouse with weapons damaged by fire.

    As has been mentioned not all conspiracies are theories.

    but how would you know, as in, what is theory and what is fact?

    To create laws that stifle debate is to stifle the progression of a civilised society.

    Re – science v religion.

60. Matters NotDecember 24, 2015 at 4:29 pm

    Most of what was taught when I was at school (60s, 70s) remains true today

    Same for me. There hasn’t been what Kuhn calls a ‘paradigm’ shift in the ‘physical’ sciences. (Sure there’s been developments in ‘social’ sciences but I’m not sure how much effect it has on the school curricula. Certainly big effects at University level.) The ‘truths’ of mathematics remain ‘solid’. And so on.

    Certainly the depth and breadth of understanding continues to ‘progress’ but doesn’t necessarily ‘contradict’.

61. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 4:33 pm

    To start classification of animals is constantly changing.

    canis lupines
    cichlids

    laws of physics. Not so much.
    but gravity is still in debate.
    as is relativity.

    Fossil records, human evolution. Java, peking,

    Local history and even english grammar.

    I know I went to a crappy school. But we accepted what we told.

    how many colours in a rainbow? Roygbiv?

    Nah. They have every single colour there is.

    gion gion or gwon gwon.

62. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 6:37 pm

    Dutton shouldn’t have the last word. I don’t think anybody here would disagree with that, Jeffrey.

    But you seem to think it is a simple binary position: either government has total censorship control or everything should be open slather. As I said before, very bad things happen if you adopt either extreme — full censorship or completely open free speech. We need to pick a safe and sane position between those two dangerous extremes.

    We have laws against hate speech. Those alone could be used to stop Icke. We also, in my opinion, need laws against propagating falsehoods. They would be of great use for shutting down propaganda and hysteria surrounding conspiracies. It could be used to stop a government repeatedly voicing lies, and might be used against Murdoch’s horrid media parroting the same. It would also serve nicely to get rid of some scammers like Landmark Forum that operate barely inside the existing law, but swindle money out of people for bullshit. And perhaps we could finally do something about homeopathy, chiropracty, scientology, and all the other crazy industries that feed upon ignorance and gullibility.

63. miriamenglishDecember 24, 2015 at 7:00 pm

    mars08, thanks for pointing me to Operation Northwoods and Protocol of Sèvres. I completely agree with what you say about loopy conspiracy theorists giving genuine conspiracies some cover.

    Kaye, thank you. Such a nice compliment from someone I admire so much (you) helps me feel a little less like an idiot. 🙂

64. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 7:10 pm

    ” I’ve noticed that kids today learn lots more maths than we did”

    We used slide rules followed by log tables. Calculators and computers have meant that kids don’t have to worry about the computational side of maths so can go so much further with practical applications.

65. mars08December 24, 2015 at 7:22 pm

    @Kaye Lee… not to mention the fact that I was away from school when they taught the number “3”. As you’d expect… I have struggled with maths ever since…

66. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 7:42 pm

    Miriam.
    I have never been that rigid on any ideology.

    As a man that has a belief in science, I recognize the probability of error.
    I consider myself to have agnostic beliefs of religion.
    I consider that the overwhelming majority of issues have extenuating circumstance.
    I am in favour of debate over censorship.
    And I would agree that the discretion of one man (in this case dutton) is undemocratic.

    Much outrage over someone that has spoken here before, as crazy as some ideas are, but yet how many voted to axe the tax.

    Subtle yet dangerous ideology that will have a negative impact far into the future of our environments well being.

    I guess that is what is confounding. A man that speaks, that has little power and generates this much discussion and yet the lnp that has now gained overwhelmingly dangerous power with subtle but dangerous ideas.

67. mars08December 24, 2015 at 7:43 pm

    @miriamenglish… As far as I know, this one hasn’t been independently verified… but Seymour Hersh is an established, credible source.

    http://crooksandliars.com/2008/08/01/cheney-wanted-to-dress-up-navy-seals-as-iranians-and-shoot-at-them-to-get-his-war-with-iran

68. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 7:45 pm

    For the record.
    I certainly dont think of you as an idiot and I admire your passion on the issues you write.
    thank you

69. mars08December 24, 2015 at 9:12 pm

    Jeffrey:

    …yet how many voted to axe the tax.

    Don’t you see? There it is… right there!The perfect example of why permitting the promotion of crackpot ideas is dangerous and why Intelligent debate is no surefire antidote.

    That anthropogenic global warming is happening is accepted almost unanimously by experts in the field. It is accepted by the United Nations. The effects of climate change are used in modelling by insurance companies. The Pope has warned of the dangers of not confronting global warming. Good grief, even the Pentagon is taking the consequences seriously!

    Yet, Tony Abbot… a relentless, shameless, knuckle-dragging, buffoon…. aided by a clueless, amoral media… financed by corporate environmental vandals and supported by frightened, uneducated, anti-intellectual, self-absorbed voters… managed to dismiss any idea that climate change was an important issue. In fact, any remedial action was deemed unnecessary and hazardous to the nation.

    Now tell me again how a “dangerous ideology that will have a negative impact far into the future” can be successfully defeated by intelligent debate?

70. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 9:19 pm

    ^^^^ Good point

71. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 9:40 pm

    Ok well abbot canned the abc 24news to south east asia.
    A method of censorship.

    His border force have been armed with orders to use extreme violence if they felt a personal threat.

    If this information had been censored from public knowledge?
    What then led to this governments change of opinion?

    (P.s I recognize their new public face on these issues as a fraud)

    Public debate.

    Debate on forums such as this. Debate with other world leaders.

    If this government considered your ideas of pollution induced climate change to be crackpot ideas, then the law you proposed could have been used to censor this debate and to censor your own person.

72. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 9:53 pm

    Ummmm…it isn’t our opinion about AGW causing climate change….it is the scientific evidence. As opposed to anything these crackpots have to say.

73. mars08December 24, 2015 at 9:56 pm

    Okay… deal me out….

74. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:07 pm

    Ok i take it I was misunderstood.

    you were not in control of abbot.
    so if he made a captain call and said it is illegal to promote a belief in agw induced climate change.
    and he decided to censor all debate?

    then that is the same law you propose for Icke and others you dont agree with.

    Conditions on funding BoM?
    Denier given authorative role at UWA?
    Cuts in funding to CSIRO?

    This was all designed to eliminate any debate that contradicts abots pov.

75. Matters NotDecember 24, 2015 at 10:12 pm

    Jeffrey said:

    i take it I was misunderstood.

    Actually no. Having read all you posts on this thread, I understand your ‘confusion’. And it’s not ‘pretty’.

    You always have the option of blaming your school. Or taking your own advice and taking ‘personal responsibility’.

    The choice, as always, is yours.

76. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 10:17 pm

    How has Icke been silenced?

77. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:18 pm

    Care to explain what you think my confusion is?

    It is the same as the advocates for asylum seekers.
    They have been silenced to eliminate debate.
    the same as ‘on water operational matters’.

78. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    Mat . You will need to clarify exactly what is you’re referring to.

    kay.
    Apparantly there were many people that had paid hear him speak previously and they would like to again.
    I understand you refer to internet media distribution but that is not necessarily part of the issue.

    for the record I have never and doubt that I will ever go and see him speak.
    I watched a few of his vids, ignoring the reptile ones, and from what I saw he did not seem dangerous.

79. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 10:31 pm

    Why do they need to pay to go and see him when they can hear/read his views, such as they are, on the internet or in his books? Why should he be given a working visa to come here? What positive contribution could he make that he can’t do through his books/videos?

    The Kardashians were in trouble for doing promotional activity while they were here supposedly on a holiday. Some may consider them not dangerous either but they did not have a working visa apparently.

80. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:36 pm

    None of that is my concern.

    The premise of what I argue is censorship and who decides what is censored.

81. Matters NotDecember 24, 2015 at 10:36 pm

    explain what you think my confusion is … focus less on the word ‘theory’ and more on the recognition of ‘conspiracy’. … Nice anecdote about an unknown individual.

    One could go on. Could I suggest that you ‘Google’ a few things that puzzle you. Try ‘theory/ fact/meaning’ as an opener.

    After you have done that I will respond.

82. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 10:40 pm

    And my premise is that Icke hasn’t been censored. He has been denied a working visa. So I dispute that censorship is an issue.

83. Matters NotDecember 24, 2015 at 10:51 pm

    From what I’ve read of Icke, I think he should be admitted with a ‘working visa’ under the heading of ‘hilarious comedy act’.

    He’s a ‘nutter’. He knows it but he also knows that it pays well, particularly from those who are mentally challenged.

    Andrew Bolt provides a good example of a ‘role model’.

    As for the claims, that on some issues he makes ‘sense’. Please. Something about a stopped clock is correct on ..

84. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:55 pm

    Ok googled.
    now you can elaborate.

85. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 10:59 pm

    Ok.
    you read between the lines and the reason for difficulty/delay is censorship.

    Not my concern if it was comedy or otherwise.
    I state that ‘from what i have seen on icke vids is that he is not dangerous yet i am expressing that i consider the rotten core of the lnp to be far more dangerous’.

86. Matters NotDecember 24, 2015 at 11:02 pm

    Jeffrey, only to happy to respond to what you ‘found’ of significance, after due consideration. And what was that? And what ‘meaning’ did you give to same?

    You know, something I could respond to.

    By the way. I am impressed with your quick response given that there are many who spend their whole lives pondering same. Perhaps it’s again down to your schooling?

87. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 11:11 pm

    What significant find are you referring?

    I googled dictionary meanings of the three words. Read a sentence or two that confirms my basic comprehension of those words.

88. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 11:18 pm

    Ok. Maybe it was the reference to global financial crash orchestrated by zionist rulers.

    I googled zionist rulers and found that it is different to judaism.

    ps too
    pss compound of phrases demostrates a lack of comprehension re ‘unknown indivi’

    Maybe you went to a crappier school than myself.

89. Matters NotDecember 24, 2015 at 11:39 pm

    Sorry Jeffrey I wasn’t talking about dictionary definitions.

    Try this link as an opener.

    http://www.sociologyguide.com/research-methods&statistics/theory-fact.php

    Theory and Facts

    There is an intricate relation between theory and fact. The popular understanding of this relationship obscures more than it illuminates. They are generally conceived as direct opposites. Theory is confused with speculation and theory remains speculation until it is proved. When this proof is made, theory becomes fact. Facts are thought to be definite, certain, without question and their meaning to be self-evident. Science is thought to be concerned with facts alone. Theory is supposed to be realm of philosophers. Scientific theory is therefore thought to be merely summation of facts that have been accumulated upon a given subject. However if we observe the way scientists actually do research, it becomes clear 1. Theory and fact are not diametrically opposed but inextricably intertwined.2. Theory is not speculation.3.Scientists are very much concerned with both theory and facts. A fact is regarded as an empirically verifiable observation. A theory refers to the relationship between facts or to the ordering of them in some meaningful way. Facts of science are the product of observations that are not random but meaningful, i.e., theoretically relevant. Therefore we cannot think of facts and theory as being opposed rather they are interrelated in many complex ways. The development of science can be considered as a constant interplay between theory and fact.

    And if you ‘choose’ to read further.

    You will find that ‘theory’ is always ‘a priori’ ‘fact’ (you can’t count ‘red’ objects’ unless you have a theory as to the ‘properties’ of ‘redness’) and that the ‘theory’ under discussion always impacts on the ‘methodology’ that’s employed (mathematical models, while useful in many situations, aren’t the be all and end all of reality constructs) as well as the ‘meaning’ that given to the ‘facts’ generated.

    Hope that helps.

90. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 11:49 pm

    Yes fantastic.

    I could rephrase as –

    “That theory gives fact, orientation and context that allows a meaning to have substance”.

91. Kaye LeeDecember 24, 2015 at 11:49 pm

    School is the beginning of education. I think most people would agree they have learned more since they left. The best teachers are those who can instil a love of learning and the research skills to facilitate it. This enables a lifelong process as opposed to a one-off score attributed to a performance on one day.

92. JeffreyDecember 24, 2015 at 11:56 pm

    “That, theory gives fact orientation and context, this allows meaning to have substance”.

    Edit – minor punctuation.

93. David BruceSeptember 27, 2018 at 7:49 pm

    KL, the plane that hit the Pentagon was an A3 Skywarrior, heavily modified by Raytheon. We know this from wreckage evidence. The Skywarrior has a box shaped fuselage cross section and a refueling pipe that runs the length of the fuselage. There is a network of 4 million current and retired, military and civilian pilots who are pretty ticked off about 911, MH370 and MH17. Pilots know, so they don’t talk about these things because they would be labelled as loonies, just like David Icke

    Where are the bodies? Supposedly 100 Tons of steel and titanium alloy completely disintegrated, yet, government forensics teams claim to have identified 180+ bodies. This is just on ‘paper’. No witnesses saw any bodies, no witnesses saw damage consistent with a 757 slamming onto the lawn and Pentagon.

    http://www.supremelaw.org/cc/gwbush/pentagon/

    http://www.hoaxofthecentury.com/911PentagonStory1.htm

94. Miriam EnglishSeptember 27, 2018 at 11:18 pm

    David Bruce, really? Really?

    Is your life so boring that you have to spike it up with crazy conspiracy theories? Yes, crazy. You really think the utterly inept Bush Jr government could handle such a massive coverup? Remember, these are the hopeless twits that couldn’t fake weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and turned a merely bad hurricane in New Orleans into a major catastrophe by their inability to do anything right. If 911 was a conspiracy, do you really think not one of the enormous number of people that would have had to be involved hasn’t had a crisis of conscience and spilled the beans? Ridiculous.

    And all the crap about the temperature of the fires and the buildings falling straight down has all been completely debunked. Hell, you don’t even need to take any expert’s word for it; you can look at the videos yourself. Ignore the bleatings of the conspiracy theorists. Look at the actual pictures and video footage. Then read what the scientists at NIST say in their investigation. But of course you won’t. You’ll prefer the rantings of lunatics. Why?

    David Icke is a nut. He believes the ruling class are a bunch of shape-shifting, blood drinking, alien reptiles from the constellation Draco. He is unhinged… and obviously knows nothing of astronomy. A constellation is an apparent grouping of completely unrelated stars in the sky. Nothing can be from the constellation Draco because it isn’t actually a thing. And shapeshifting is not possible. Sure, it’s popular in comicbooks, but not possible in real life. The fact that Icke says something should immediately give you reason to doubt it.

95. David BruceOctober 10, 2018 at 3:29 pm

    Before you dismiss David Icke, do your homework on Adrenochrome!

    Adrenochrome is a chemical compound with the molecular formula C9H9NO3 produced by the oxidation of adrenaline (epinephrine).

96. David BruceOctober 10, 2018 at 3:47 pm

    M E, you obviously have no experience of military service, black projects and intelligence agencies. I was involved first hand in preventing the kidnap of the Malaysian Royal family by the Indonesians, during Konfrontasi. Nothing has ever been published. There are many other examples I can’t discuss until the 50 year embargo of the Official Secrets Act expires for me on 16 November 2018.

    People have come forward about 911 and many other “events” and plumbers have been sent to fix the leaks.

    Suggest you could read Christopher Bollyn reports about 911 and the numerous attempts on his life to silence him.

    Like you, most Australians are decent people and are reluctant to get involved with anything that differs from their world view.

97. KronomexOctober 10, 2018 at 6:30 pm

    Those naughty illuminati and shape-shifting, blood drinking lizards from outer space are the cause of all our problems. David Icke is a nutcase of the highest order. Christopher Bollyn is just another fringe dwelling conspiracy theorist.

    “I was involved first hand in preventing the kidnap of the Malaysian Royal family by the Indonesians, during Konfrontasi.” This means you have broken the Secrets Act by letting that information out. Unless David Bruce is a pseudonym to protect yoursel from any sort of reprisal.

    “I was involved first hand in preventing the kidnap of the Malaysian Royal family by the Indonesians, during Konfrontasi. Nothing has ever been published. There are many other examples I can’t discuss until the 50 year embargo of the Official Secrets Act expires for me on 16 November 2018.” Are you going to let us know on 17 November what you were involved in?

    I gather you mean the act that doesn’t cover Australia? Maybe you mean the Malaysian Official Secrets Act of 1972 which puts paid to your 50 year claim. Could it be the United Kingdom Official Secrets Act 1911 which was then repealed, in part, by Official Secrets Act 1989. Please elucidate which act you talked about.

    “Nothing has ever been published.” Um –

    https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/event/indonesian-confrontation or
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/konfrontasi.htm

    You might have worded that particular sentence a little better.

98. David BruceOctober 10, 2018 at 8:11 pm

    Kronomex, thanks for the feedback

99. dannys SwainJuly 10, 2019 at 1:55 am

    If you say anything negative about Icke on his forum you are banned and deleted. Seems he only believes in freedom of speech when it suits him.