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Day to Day Politics: Stan the Man.

Tuesday February 23 2010

1 At noon yesterday the keys on my keyboard were craving the familiar attention of my fingers to write of daily happenings in the body politic. However, I was drawn to words of the spoken kind. Words that fall from the tongue like raindrops on starched eucalyptus leaves delivered in a fashion that stirs the mind and unlocks the emotions.

Stan Grant’s speech to the National Press Club was equal to the YouTube clip that stirred the nation and was given endorsement by a million views. What a powerful speech reminiscent of the Noel Pearson mixture of style and substance.

Grant says he is ripe for politics but is uncertain as to which side his personal ideology lays. I could suggest that the conservative side needs more people with his compassion but to be honest it would be a travesty of justice if he didn’t represent the left.

2 Last week I said that polls this far out from an election could only ever be a guide to how people are thinking. What can be taken seriously however, is when there is a trend on. Today’s 50/50 Newspoll result when coupled with other recent polls confirms that one is on. Of course they will go up and down as they always do but this one must give Labor renewed hope.

The Essential Poll has been recording a trend away from the Government. Today’s will be interesting.

There are two reasons for the turn around. Firstly, because Labor is releasing common sense policy in line with public expectations, and well ahead of the traditional campaign period. They are policies that serve to enhance its economic credentials. Secondly, and more importantly, it is because people are fine-tuning their opinion of the Prime Minister. He has not yet met people’s hopes.

The expectations were that the bombastic Abbott would be replaced with a modest smiling lord of the manner who would ditch the Abbott policies and replace them with ones he had a long-held belief in. At the time they didn’t understand that he had sold those beliefs down the drain to get the job.

So the honeymoon is finally over. The government is floundering without being able to explain its taxation reforms. After last week’s debacle in which the Treasurer almost hyperventilated with over speak every time he came within an inch or so of a mike.

Tax policies have been on and off the table that many times that the serviettes have had little use.

They do, however, seem to have an endless array of deserts. Now they are floating the idea that low-income earners, instead of having superannuation put away for them, take the cash upfront instead.

It would allow a part-time worker earning $35,000 a year to take home an extra $63 a week, or about $3300 each year. Barnaby Joyce said on Sunday that the idea made sense because it would allow low-income earners to use that extra money to buy their own homes, so by the time they retired they would have their own home to live in while drawing a pension. If you can find me someone who earns 35k per year who can afford not only to save a deposit, but can service mortgage repayments, I will retract my viewpoint and just to add insult to injury. Joyce is a member of the Turnbull government’s expenditure review committee, which advises the Cabinet on budget spending priorities. If it wasn’t so serious it would be funny . . .

Scott Morrison said:

‘Well, the new idea is to continue to work through the plethora of other measures which were put back on the table by the Prime Minster and I, since only last September, and to work those through and ensure that in the Budget we are able to deliver some modest tax relief to people so they do not go into these higher tax brackets.’

The question the public is asking is what the Government has been doing for two and a half years.

3 The Roy Morgan daily newsletter reports that the:

Australian Industry Group wants a reduction in the company tax rate in the May Budget. CEO Innes Willox has also called for “prudent” spending cuts in areas such as aged care and health. This would enable the Government to prioritise expenditure on policies such as infrastructure and training in the science, technology, engineering and mathematics disciplines.

4 Peter Dutton all but confirms that Baby Asha and family will be returned to Nauru in due course. This of means that they and many others will rot there at the government’s pleasure, and expense, if another country cannot be found. Australian doctors say Nauru is an unfit place. The Government says it is but won’t let anyone near it.

The flippancy with which the Governments treats the disadvantaged is often breathtaking.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has downplayed fresh negotiations to resettle asylum seekers living in Manus Island and Nauru saying it was ‘early days’ for most of the discussions, and that the countries involved might also have to consider internal factors before coming to an agreement.

‘Some of them have domestic issues, like elections,’ Ms Bishop said,

What does one say?

An observation.

‘When we go out of our way to help someone less fortunate we cannot avoid helping ourselves.’

5 It may seem petty but the MSM were fond of saying ‘Gillard/Rudd’ Government. Why can’t they bring themselves to say ‘Abbott/Turnbull’?

6 In Question Time today the PM said in answer to a question ‘lead up to the election’ and quickly corrected himself saying ‘lead up to the budget’.

Am I reading too much into that?

My thought for the day.

‘Every major experience is a mountain with a peak to climb, a decent to safely navigate and a lesson or two to learn on route’.

 

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105 comments

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  1. bossa

    I find it obscene that this government thinks it has the right to ‘settle’ people in other countries not of their own choosing.

    It seems to me that any person has the right to live in whichever country they choose that will accept them.

    When ‘industry groups’ start making policy decisions for government you know you live in an oligarchy and not a democracy. What gives The Australian Industry Group the right to demand spending cuts in Aged Care and Health? Those areas of public spending have nothing to do with them

  2. Kaye Lee

    If someone on $35,000 was given their super as wages it would push them into the next tax bracket and they would have to pay tax on it rather than it being tax free savings.

    They always use “compliance costs” as an excuse as to why big business can’t be asked to do anything. What of the compliance cost to small business whose payroll would get a shitload harder?

  3. Kaye Lee

    bossa,

    Kate Carnell will tell you that they are making helpful suggestions on ways to make a cut in company tax affordable because that will benefit us all. Considering almost 600 of the largest companies operating in Australia did not pay income tax in the 2013-14 financial year, I can see no reason to cut the rate further. And while we are at it, how about we stop paying fossil fuel subsidies instead of cutting welfare as Kate would have us do.

  4. bossa

    Hi Kaye,

    Yes I understand all of that but it still sticks in my craw that these fools can’t keep up with the rest of the world in ideas, and personal business management skills (as has always been the case here), expecting other people, generally the most vulnerable, to pay the price of their inadequacy.

  5. Pilot

    Not forgetting Kaye Lee, that these same people will be demonised by any future Lying Nasty Party government, if we’re so stupid as to elected them in future. These are the people who the Lying Nasty People will throw onto the streets and sell their homes because the pension will hold no value. They will be beside the sick and the unemployed, in ghettos, in the gutters, under cardboard shelters all in the name of handing fists full of dollars to their rich, non taxpaying freeloaders.

    The other real obscenity is the fact that the Australian Industry Group, a group that represents big business is calling for a reduction of company tax rates for companies who basically pay zero tax. This is the abomination of this current mob of misfits.

    Standby for more thrilling episodes on “How NOT to govern Australia”

  6. Kaye Lee

    The thing that really pisses me off is they are totally self-serving and their only goal is short term profit. Of course they represent business but that should not mean their only focus is on reducing their costs. We are all part of a social contract. Business must understand that we are paying for the education and health of their workforce. We are paying for the infrastructure they use. Taking money away from that to increase shareholders’ dividends is a despicable breach of contract. Inequality is a huge drag on growth. They have tried their trickle down bs. It doesn’t work. Lifting people out of poverty does. Improving the health and education of the population does. Providing infrastructure does. Increasing the profits of tax avoiding multi-nationals does NOT.

  7. Michael Taylor

    I’m surprised that Stan Grant is undecided. People with an interest in politics, at his age, generally know which side of politics they lean. But maybe he’s an opportunist. “Who can offer me the most?”

  8. Wally

    “allow low-income earners to use that extra money to buy their own homes, so by the time they retired they would have their own home to live in while drawing a pension.”

    Even if by some miracle low income earners managed to buy a house when they retire the idiots who are promoting this stupid idea would want the home sold or reverse mortgaged to fund retirement.

    I commented recently the best way to help first home buyers was to increase wages but over the past few days I think a cure for blatant bloody stupidity is essential. Stan Grant is the perfect example of someone sitting on the fence waiting to jump off the fence to the side that will benefit him the most. What happened to the days when people entered politics so they could do good for their country and all they wanted in return was the satisfaction that comes with achievement? We don’t need any more politicians we need people in parliament who care about others not as fortunate as themselves.

  9. Michael

    Tax policies have been on and off the table that many times that the serviettes have had little use.

    ScoMo is like a child discovering a new word – here is an all encompassing – “table-ising”.

    Start a competition?

  10. astra5

    John
    Thank you for your helpful summary of contemporary federal politics.

    If only we had politicians of the calibre of Stan Grant! Like you, I hope he does enter politics on the progressive side. His ideals best fit there.

  11. Matters Not

    Stan is looking for a ‘safe seat’ but they are always scarce, particularly when there are so many in the queue and have waited patiently for years. Not a good look. A Johnny-come-lately.

    Considering almost 600 of the largest companies

    The number of 579 (five hundred and seventy-nine) should be to the forefront of everyone’s brain. Not 579 who pay a ‘little’ tax but 579 who pay no tax.

    Then there’s ‘manna’ (mana) from heaven. There’s a ‘manner’ of doing things and there’s a lord of the ‘manor’. In the case of Malware, all three are relevant. His ‘manor’ is valued in the vicinity of $50 million. His manner when dealing with HIH and FAI and the resulting manna from heaven still leave a sour taste.

  12. Kaye Lee

    And those 579 companies all have an annual income of over $100 million.

  13. bloozsooz

    What the government has been doing for the last 2.5 Years? Scaring the begeezus outta me.

  14. Neil of Sydney

    The number of 579 (five hundred and seventy-nine) should be to the forefront of everyone’s brain. Not 579 who pay a ‘little’ tax but 579 who pay no tax.

    Why? If they are breaking the law they would be in trouble. I doubt they are doing anything wrong.

    Take Apple computers. Apple designs, manufactures, boxes and packages its computers overseas. The whole thing is fully imported. The only place you could tax a fully imported product is on the markup the importer puts on the imported product.

    If people want Apple to pay more tax we have to get them to make their computers in Australia.

  15. margcal

    No.4
    > Peter Dutton all but confirms that Baby Asha and family will be returned to Nauru in due course.

    I didn’t think I’d be saying “Told you so” quite so soon after I wrote this:
    margcal
    February 21, 2016 at 7:02 pm
    Protesters wouldn’t want to wander too far from where this baby is resettled. Being put on a plane in the dead of night is not unheard of.

    (Although granted, ‘most’ people commenting here knew that too).

    …………………………………………………………………………………………….

    > This of means that they and many others will rot there at the government’s pleasure, and expense, if another country cannot be found.

    How hard is it to find New Zealand?

  16. margcal

    Pilot
    February 23, 2016 at 9:12 am
    > …….any future Lying Nasty Party government, if we’re so stupid as to elected them in future.

    If we elect the LNP again we’re much worse than stupid. We’d be every bit as cruel and inhumane as those elected.
    And let’s not kid ourselves, there’s plenty of them out there. Speaking up on your local member’s FB page (Josh Frydenberg, in my case) brings out people exactly like their local member.

    Where’s a good dose of karma when you need it?

  17. Kyran

    Indeed, Margcal, the blatant contempt shown to the asylum seekers and the electorate by various government duo’s is mind boggling.

    “SCOTT MORRISON (Jan. 22): I think the report speaks for itself and those are matters for the Immigration Minister because I’m focused on the economy.”

    “PETER DUTTON, IMMIGRATION MINISTER (Feb. 3): This was an incident that allegedly occurred, but it was before my time in the portfolio. I think if there’s an issue around compensation, that’s an issue for the lawyers and no doubt those discussions will be under way.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4411615.htm

    That was an article on Save the Children’s campaign for compensation and an apology over the still unexplained reason to terminate their tenure at obscenely short notice. As the song says, they say it best when they say nothing at all. Thank you, Mr Lord. Take care

  18. Keitha Granville

    2. I am confused as to how anyone will end up with the extra money in their pay packets. Super is paid by an employer ABOVE what the employee receives. It is not part of the wage. Anyone who thinks that employers will pay this amount to an employee believes in fairy godmothers. They will find all manner of ways to make sure that less than the super guaranteee reaches anyone.
    And if you believe that a basic wage earner can afford to save for a house – hah ! Youhave never lived on a basic wage.
    4. If New Zealand wants them, why are we blocking that ? Because they might come to Oz later on ? I am sure they can find a nasty way of making sure they are eternally ineligible. What kind of human beings do we have in Canberra ?

  19. JeffJL

    Re point 5.

    Perhaps because there was a difference between the Rudd and Gillard governments while there is no difference between the Abbott and Turnbull governments.

    Another good reflection on the day John.

  20. diannaart

    Good one, Australian Industry Group, cut the welfare budget and then blame people who wind up homeless.

    So it goes…

  21. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    If Apple and the other 578 companies who pay no tax found a conscience and paid their share of tax the budget would balance and your LNP mates could give the rich tax cuts without making life ever harder for low income workers. I thought even you would comprehend that despite not breaking any laws these companies are morally corrupt.

  22. Neil of Sydney

    that despite not breaking any laws these companies are morally corrupt.

    I actually think it is the other way around. It is morally bankrupt to expect them to pay the amount of tax you think they should be paying.

    Over the years i have purchased lots of stuff from Dealsdirect and Ebay. Most of it comes from China. I have purchased stuff for my bicycle, clocks, toasters etc. Dealsdirect gets them from China and then puts a markup on the item. Dealsdirect only pays tax on the profit they make from importing and selling the items.

    I fail t see why Chinese companies who make the stuff should be paying tax to the ATO.

  23. Kaye Lee

    Neil,

    The law says you pay tax in the jurisdiction where you earn the income. To avoid doing this, these corporations do things like lend money to themselves at exorbitant interest rates. No money ever changes hands. Do you condone that?

  24. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    No one is suggesting OS companies should pay tax in Australia but Apple sell their products from its Australian stores, distribute to other sellers from Australian warehouses but unlike Dealsdirect they pay no tax in Australia.

    Apple is a morally bankrupt company, they even screw their suppliers who supply the products for a small percentage of the retail price.

  25. Neil of Sydney

    Do you condone that?

    No. But at the moment i am still a little unsure what is right. I am sure multi-nationals are avoiding tax but it is the American and European taxpayers who are being ripped off.

    I purchased a battery powered grandfather clock from Dealsdirect. The clock was made in China. Dealsdirect imports the clock from China, puts a markup on the clock to pay for expenses and to make a small profit.

    I fail to see why the Chinese company who makes the clock should be paying tax to the ATO. Dealsdirect will have to pay tax on the profit they make however.

    WE are just going to have to start making things in Australia if we want to get our fair share of tax.

  26. thebustopher

    Tony Burke of Turnbull in Parliament this afternoon: “This man was going to change the Liberal Party. But the Liberal Party has changed him”

  27. John Lord

    ”that despite not breaking any laws these companies are morally corrupt”

    That Neil of Sydney cannot understand the difference between the two illustrates why a lot of his comments are treated with distain.

  28. Backyard Bob

    Neil may have a different notion of what constitutes “moral corruption”, to which he is, in fact, perfectly entitled, there being no objective measure for such things. “Labeling” stuff is never, ever an argument.

  29. Neil of Sydney

    No one is suggesting OS companies should pay tax in Australia but Apple sell their products from its Australian stores,

    But it appears to me that is what you are suggesting. I sort of get what you are saying about Apple stores importing computers made overseas but i think you are wrong.

    What is the difference between Dealsdirect importing a battery operated grandfather clock designed and built from China and selling it to me and Apple stores importing a Apple computer designed and built overseas and selling it to me?

    I am sure both Dealsdirect and Apple stores pay tax on the profit they make on their imported goods.

  30. John Lord

    John Oliver. Have you ever noticed how Barnaby Joyce’s complexion changes when he gets a trifle angry. That’s a starting point for your answer.

  31. triestegal

    John: rain on starched eucalyptus leaves, lord of the manner?

  32. Neil of Sydney

    That Neil of Sydney cannot understand the difference between the two illustrates why a lot of his comments are treated with distain.

    Typical leftie comment. Some poor bugger has got off his butt, designed, built, manufactured and packaged a product and you want some of the profit because you purchased the item.

  33. sandrasearle

    Michael, perhaps now is the time for our 1st nations people to form their own political party, just as the Maori did some time ago. Twenty years ago I spoke with a Maori Elder who had lived here in Australia since her children were small. I asked her could she ever see our Indigenous people doing the same thing. Her reply was that it would take round 20 years before she could see that happening.
    Well the 20 years is here, so if they were looking for a wonderful charismatic & knowledgeable person to lead them, Stand Grant could just be the man to do that job. He doesn’t need to join a party where doctrine is already set and where he would have to keep toeing the party line.
    Stan has so much respect from his own people and also many of us who are of other European descent. We were kept in the dark about what successive governments did to them – nothing was taught in schools when we were young. It was wrong & the wrongs need to be righted. The only way for that to happen is for all Indigenous to band together collectively. There are many more well respected educated people in their mob who could steer their people forward for the proper recognition they so rightly deserve.

  34. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    I believe that Apple does not pay tax but we have no evidence because the LNP has blocked release of data showing which companies are not paying any tax. But Apple do not pay tax in the US so it is an odds on bet that Apple doesn’t pay tax in Australia.

  35. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    “Typical leftie comment. Some poor bugger has got off his butt, designed, built, manufactured and packaged a product and you want some of the profit because you purchased the item.”

    Typical extreme right wing (nut) comment that points to the wrong end of the stick.

    Executives sit on their bums, do very little, get paid bonuses even if they send the company broke and take 3/4 of the cake

  36. Neil of Sydney

    I believe

    Who cares what you believe. A quick google search would have shown you are wrong.

    Apple paid $74M in tax which is 30% of their taxable income.

    What you lefties also want is for Apple to pay tax on the computers they design, make, box, package and ship from overseas.

    In case you do not know we do not make anything here anymore. Most things are imported. So we can only tax these people on the companies who import these items.

    What you lefties want is for overseas companies to pay tax in Australia.

    How about us Aussies get off our butts and start designing, build, manufacturing stuff in this country and then we can get the tax we deserve.

  37. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    Sorry Neil I should have said very little tax I stand corrected but you did not bother to provide a link.

    “How about us Aussies get off our butts and start designing, build, manufacturing stuff in this country and then we can get the tax we deserve.”

    We tried but the LNP want us to work for half a bowl of rice a day.

    “Apple ordered to pay Italy 318 million euros after tax fraud probe”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-30/apple-ordered-to-pay-italy-318-million-euros-after-tax-fraud/7060908

    “Apple pays $193m tax in Australia on $27b revenue”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-06/tax-expert-explains-how-apple-pays-193m-tax-on-27b-revenue/5303426

    “Apple paid just $80.3 million in Australian tax last year, despite making more than $6 billion in local revenue, accounts filed with the corporate regulator show. While a fraction of its overall income, Apple’s tax bill was more than double what it paid the previous year. ”

    “A feature of high tech transfer pricing is that a good deal of these payments
    overseas appear in Australian Bureau of Statistics figures as payments for the
    licensing of intellectual property. Each year payments abroad for the licensing of IT
    amount to some $10,350 million.18 These figures relate to the four quarters
    ending in March 2014.
    In addition there are other forms of transfer pricing such as interest between
    related companies, payments for business services and many others that raise
    similar questions. For example, if it is easy to avoid tax by shifting IT to tax haven it
    should be just as easy in the case of business services. Through ABS figures we
    can identify tens of billions of dollars in categories that are likely to contain suspect
    payments, although the bulk of that is likely to be quite legitimate. What we cannot
    do from the ABS figures is estimate the likely flows between related entities, such
    as different Apple subsidiaries.”

    The list of examples goes on and on Neil, get off the soap box and do some research all of the above (and plenty more) from page 1 of a Google search.

  38. Neil of Sydney

    Apple paid just $80.3 million in Australian tax last year, despite making more than $6 billion in local revenue, accounts filed with the corporate regulator show. While a fraction of its overall income, Apple’s tax bill was more than double what it paid the previous year. ”

    And that is fair and just.

    If we want Apple to pay more tax in Australia we have to get them to design, build, manufacture, wrap and package the stuff in Australia.

    Otherwise we can only tax them on the markup importing companies put on the computers they import from overseas.

  39. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    Approx. 0.133333333% tax, now I know you are here to take the piss Neil, no sane person could consider that to be fair.

    Particularly someone who doesn’t believe in MMT and insists the government returns the budget to a surplus.

    Maybe we should line up all the left wing bludgers and send them to Nauru on a leaky boat.

    Oh but then who would buy all of those iPhones?

  40. Neil of Sydney

    Approx. 0.133333333% tax, now I know you are here to take the piss Neil, no sane person could consider that to be fair.

    Well that is what i am saying. I think that is fair because Apple designs, manufactures and packages its computers overseas.

    What you are saying is that overseas companies should be paying tax in Australia just like an Australian company who makes things here.

    How much tax do you think Apple should be paying?

    What about the Chinese company who made the battery powered grandfather clock i purchased from Dealsdirect, How much tax do you think that Chinese company should be paying in Australia?

  41. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    “What you are saying is that overseas companies should be paying tax in Australia just like an Australian company who makes things here.”

    I have never said that Neil, you need to keep your comment to what I have written without putting your bullshit spin on it.

    An ipad sells in Australia for about 8 times more than a Chinese brand tablet so there is a massive mark up on the product.
    Where does this profit go? To a tax haven so they can avoid paying tax. Most countries in the world are pissed with Apple using Ireland as a tax haven and you say it is OK. As a Liberal supported you condone liars and cheats so why wouldn’t you support Apple?

    Ireland faces possible censure over Apple’s tax payments. In 2013 Apple revealed that it had paid an effective tax rate of less than 2% in Ireland over a 10-year period. If it finds that Apple’s tax payments in Ireland broke EU rules, it is likely that the Irish government will take this matter to the European Union Court of Justice.
    https://www.newstalk.com/Ireland-faces-possible-censure-over-Apples-tax-payments

    Apple May Be on Hook for $8 Billion in Taxes in Europe Probe. The world’s largest company could owe more than $8 billion in back taxes as a result of a European Commission investigation into its tax policies, according to an analysis by Matt Larson of Bloomberg Intelligence. Apple, which has said it will appeal an adverse ruling, is being scrutinized by regulators who have accused the iPhone maker of using subsidiaries in Ireland to avoid paying taxes on revenue generated outside the U.S.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-15/apple-may-be-on-hook-for-8-billion-in-taxes-after-europe-probe

  42. Neil of Sydney

    Most countries in the world are pissed with Apple using Ireland as a tax haven and you say it is OK. As a Liberal supported you condone liars and cheats so why wouldn’t you support Apple?

    Lots of maybes in your links. And i do not condone tax dodging. I actually do not know the full story Re: Apple in Australia but i suspect they are doing nothing wrong.

    So they only pay $74M in tax on $6B in sales. So where are we going to tax them? Apple computers are designed, built and packaged overseas. We don’t do anything. A Apple computer is a fully imported product.

    We can only tax Apple on the markup the shop that imports the computer puts on the product. Now if that shop is diverting profits overseas that would be wrong but i suspect Apple shops are not doing that.

    Just look at it the other way around. Say I make handmade clocks in my garage and sell a bunch to China.Why should i pay tax to the Chinese govt. If i make a profit i pay tax to the ATO.

  43. Michael Taylor

    Neil, I’m glad you’re not our Treasurer.

  44. Neil of Sydney

    Come on moderator. Why did you delete my comment? I posted on a thread nobody is posting on anymore but you still deleted my comment.

  45. diannaart

    Scott Morrison / Neil of Sydney

    There’s a difference?

  46. Neil of Sydney

    There’s a difference?

    Not sure what your point is.

    Some poor bugger has got off his butt, designed, manufactured and packaged a product. Just because you purchased this product from overseas you lefties think they should be paying tax to the Australian govt.

    It is just the politics of envy.

  47. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    If you are dumb enough to believe that Apple has not avoided tax there is definitely no hope for you.

    And what diannaart was meaning is there any difference between you (Neil of Sydney) and Scott Morrison.

    Anyhow Neil if LNP win the next election I hope you enjoy paying 15% GST while Apple pay $74M in tax on $6B in sales.

    I actually believe us lefties have a much better idea on how capitalism works than yourself and the extreme right, we understand that when you pay workers a decent wage they can afford to buy Australian products, the economy gets stronger and we are all better off. Pity no one taught the right wing how to share because it would make the world a much better place, particularly for all those who are starving to death.

  48. diannaart

    Wally

    Good that neo-cons have differing names – else we could mistake Neil for Scott.

    I must admit I was rather surprised to see Neil express concern for the wages of design teams employed by Apple. Does this concern extend itself towards all of Apple’s employees? That they receive a fair and reasonable wage for the work they do?

    I find it alarming to consider that a massively successful corporation such as Apple can only pay its employees wages, if they resort to ‘creative accounting’ in countries where they make a great deal of profit.

    Piss-poor planning – if a corporation cannot afford to pay its people except by dodging taxes… sounds like their executive staff are a bunch of monkeys at the least or else something far worse…

  49. Neil of Sydney

    f you are dumb enough to believe that Apple has not avoided tax there is definitely no hope for you.

    I have seen no evidence that they are avoiding tax in Australia.

    What i have seen is the politics of envy.

    we understand that when you pay workers a decent wage they can afford to buy Australian products

    So Australians are not getting paid a decent wage?

    An ipad sells in Australia for about 8 times more than a Chinese brand tablet so there is a massive mark up on the product.

    That is because rents for Apple stores are enormous. Plus they have to pay double time on Saturdays, triple time on Sundays, Super, holiday loading etc etc

    False conclusions will only mean we will continue to lose the few manufacturing jobs we have left.

  50. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    “So Australians are not getting paid a decent wage?”

    Spot on Neil compare the cost of housing to the average wage, median wage and basic wage and you will see that our wages have been on a continual downward trend by comparison to executive salaries have gone through the roof.

    “That is because rents for Apple stores are enormous.”

    Would be similar to what other retailers pay for prime locations.

    “Plus they have to pay double time on Saturdays, triple time on Sundays, Super, holiday loading etc etc”

    Bullshit Neil penalty rates for Saturdays for retailers is time and a quarter and Sundays is double time. There is not and has never been triple time for Sundays. http://www.retailwages.com.au/

    Retailers usually employ casual staff and they limit their hours so they don’t earn enough money to qualify for superannuation payments. Casual staff do not get holidays, leave loading or sick pay, they are the third rate lower class of Australian workers John Howard created.

  51. abbienoiraude

    Well I never thought I would see “Neil of Sydney” on an Independent media outlet apart from New Matilda.

    What’s wrong Neil? Not getting your jollies anymore from Matilda or those informative, movers and shakers?
    You have to now move to a caring group like AIMN.

    Anything you say after reading your diatribes for years, is never going to hold water.
    Why not?
    Because in the end you just don’t give a root. You don’t care about Australian’s, the future, the worker, progressive ideas or those stuggling under your (met you under Howard’s regime) Right Wing CONservative diatribe of Neoliberal ideology.

    If anyone tries to take you on, they are wasting their time, because you, “Neil” are nothing but an apologist and a Narcissist.

    Watch how you respond to this old girl’s post simply because I mention your name.

    People like you ( similar to Gerard Henderson and Alan Jones) need to be put out to pasture and allow the young folk to flourish with, NOT ideology, but with Emotional Intelligence.
    When I first came upon you EI was not appreciated or noted as of worth.
    Now you are the kind of commenter (a term I purposely proposed for a poseur like you) that would have no currency in the future.

    On behalf of my little grandson, I hope you and your ilk die out sooner than later, and that goes to all my cruel, hard hearted relatives as well. Waste of space comes to mind….not because of what you argue, ( mostly logically) but because you have left your heart behind and your understanding of how it is for those less fortunate than you.

    You, mate, are a fake and a fraud, manipulating those who have deep seated ideals for your own enjoyment.
    You are…simply…a Dick.

  52. Michael Taylor

    Abbie, I’ve been putting up with Neil for ten years. He was a dick ten years ago. He was a dick nine years ago. He was a dick eights years ago and so on and so on. He’s still a dick.

  53. abbienoiraude

    Thank you Michael ….
    I just wondered if you knew him.
    Cheers.

  54. Neil of Sydney

    Well I never thought I would see “Neil of Sydney” on an Independent media outlet apart from New Matilda.

    What is New Matilda? Whatever it is i have never posted on it.

    Would be similar to what other retailers pay for prime locations.

    Yes and that is why things are expensive in Australia. It is expensive for retailers because of rents and high wage costs. It is one reason people are purchasing things online more and more. Either themselves or through online companies like DealsDirect.

    Are you saying that these overseas companies should be paying tax in Australia? There is no difference between getting an i Mac from overseas and a grandfather clock from overseas. I purchased some lights for my bicycle on EBAY from China. Should that Chinese company be paying tax in Australia?.

    People are ordering online because it is cheaper. I remember in the early 1990’s it cost $250 for a pair of Reeboks in Australia but you could get them for $50 in the USA.

  55. Neil of Sydney

    What’s wrong Neil? Not getting your jollies anymore from Matilda or those informative, movers and shakers?
    You have to now move to a caring group like AIMN.

    If i have posted on Matilda as many times as you say you must have lots of examples. Give me three.

    I just did a google search and found the online journal you have been talking about. You have to login to post. I have never posted on New Matilda

  56. diannaart

    Many people order online, because they are on a low income.

    NoS

    You don’t get the connection between gouging workers and customers/consumers, do you? While profit remains the only goal only the greedy minority at the apex win.

    You don’t think through anything much at all.

  57. Wally

    diannaart

    “You don’t think through anything much at all.”

    Neil can only see one path because of the blinkers and to think outside of the box or consider anything that John Howard or Tony Abbott has not endorsed is Taboo. I enjoy AimN , as well as keeping me informed sharing ideas is a learning experience for everybody.

    Everybody except Neil of Sydney.

  58. Neil of Sydney

    You don’t get the connection between gouging workers and customers/consumers, do you? While profit remains the only goal only the greedy minority at the apex win.

    I am not sure what you are blabbing on about.

    One thing we were talking about is that Apple pays $74M in tax on $6B in sales. But that applies to everything we import from overseas.

    Lefties want overseas companies to pay tax in Australia on the stuff we purchase online from overseas.

    People are purchasing things online because it is cheaper.

    You people are saying that overseas companies should be paying tax to the ATO on the stuff Australians are buying online from overseas companies.

    These overseas companies are not breaking any laws in spite of what John Lord says

  59. Wally

    Michael Taylor

    Bookmark this post it is a perfect example of why blocking NoS is justified.

    I enjoyed reading your summary of what we were all thinking Michael. 🙂

  60. Michael Taylor

    Thanks Wally.

    Neil, your comment went straight in the bin. While I’m here, all of your attempted comments will go in the bin.

  61. Neil of Sydney

    Well that is three times. But i guess you enjoy deleting me.

    John Lord- why should overseas companies which Aussies purchase lots of stuff online from be paying tax in Australia.

    Thank you

  62. Kaye Lee

    Because they will be collecting tax on behalf of the Australian government if they are charging GST. If they aren’t charging GST then it is an unlevel playing field which is to the detriment of local business.

    As for Apple, from 2014…..

    “The Australian Financial Review’s analysis shows that while Australians have bought $27 billion worth of Apple products since 2002, the company has paid only $193 million to the Australian Tax Office (ATO) – just 0.7 per cent of its turnover.

    The newspaper estimates that around $9 billion in profit has been shifted offshore to minimise taxation.

    “Apple worldwide in the past four years have avoided paying tax on $US44 billion – basically around 40 per cent of the payments we make to buy Apple products in Australia has escaped Australian tax and at the same time escaped tax anywhere in the world,” said Antony Ting, a senior lecturer in taxation law at Sydney University.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-06/tax-expert-explains-how-apple-pays-193m-tax-on-27b-revenue/5303426

  63. Neil of Sydney

    Kaye

    You can post any links you want. Lefties want Apple to pay tax in Australia on the profits they make designing, building, manufacturing and packaging Apple products. This is all done overseas.

    The only place we can tax Apple is on the markup Apple stores put on the fully imported Apple product.

    Perhaps we could ask Apple to send their products to Australia wrapped in newspaper. Then when the item arrives someone in the Apple store could then put it in a box and then we can say we have done something and can tax Apple on what we have done.

    I doubt if any profit has been shifted offshore. What people want is for Apple to pay tax like if the products we made in Australia. They are not made in Australia. They are made overseas.

    Lots of aussies are buying stuff online because they can bypass the huge markups aussies place on imported products because of huge rents and wages.

  64. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    “I doubt if any profit has been shifted offshore. What people want is for Apple to pay tax like if the products we made in Australia. They are not made in Australia. They are made overseas.”

    Are you for real???

    At the company tax rate of 30% Apple have avoided paying $2.7 billon tax on profit made from Australian sales. That is profit generated within Australia and nothing to do with the cost of purchasing product or shipping costs.

  65. Neil of Sydney

    That is profit generated within Australia and nothing to do with the cost of purchasing product or shipping costs

    Are you sure? Then why hasn’t the ATO taken Apple to court and sued the crap out of them?

    It is always difficult to tell what is actually happening because journalists are players. They don’t present the facts. But twist the truth.
    .

  66. Michael Taylor

    Neil, I must admit that you are one of the more intelligent commenters here and it is our privelage that you give up your valuable time to comment on The AIMN.

    I know I speak for all of us.

  67. Michael Taylor

    😯

  68. cornlegend

    Michael,
    has the heat got to you ?

  69. Michael Taylor

    Nah, Neil is a top bloke.

  70. Michael Taylor

    👿

  71. cornlegend

    Pinnochio

  72. diannaart

    Neil of SydneyFebruary 25, 2016 at 12:03 pm

    You don’t get the connection between gouging workers and customers/consumers, do you? While profit remains the only goal only the greedy minority at the apex win.

    I am not sure what you are blabbing on about.

    We know, Neil, we know. Just the fact you couldn’t even respond to this:

    … I was rather surprised to see Neil express concern for the wages of design teams employed by Apple. Does this concern extend itself towards all of Apple’s employees? That they receive a fair and reasonable wage for the work they do?

    I find it alarming to consider that a massively successful corporation such as Apple can only pay its employees wages, if they resort to ‘creative accounting’ in countries where they make a great deal of profit.

    Piss-poor planning – if a corporation cannot afford to pay its people except by dodging taxes… sounds like their executive staff are a bunch of monkeys at the least or else something far worse…

    No one tell Neil that infinite profit is impossible – his brain might explode.

  73. Neil of Sydney

    diannaart

    Not sure what you are talking about. Sounds like you just hate Apple.

    I know nothing about the wages Apple pays its employees. I do know many companies make stuff in Bangladesh, China etc to take advantage of the low wages in these countries. I guess Apple is doing something similar.

    I myself have purchased many things on Ebay and from DealsDirect which were made in China.

  74. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    You have commented 6 times on this post that you have purchased many things on Ebay and from DealsDirect.

    We already know you have purchased many things on Ebay from DealsDirect.

  75. Michael Taylor

    No, it doesn’t sound like diannaart hates Apple. It sounds more like she doesn’t like big corporations avoiding tax.

    That’s how I see it. And I guess that’s how everyone else sees it. You just seem to see things differently to everyone else.

    Either you’re a genius and see things that we can’t, or you’re an imbecile who can’t quite get your head around the simple explanations in life.

  76. Michael Taylor

    Not only that Wally, but they were all made in China. 🙂

  77. Wally

    Michael Taylor

    It is a bit like a festering sore, you are always wondering when it will stop oozing out shit.

  78. Neil of Sydney

    We already know you have purchased many things on Ebay from DealsDirect.

    One indirect comment i was trying to make was that i was taking advantage of low paid workers because i purchased stuff online from China. Just like millions of other Australians

    No, it doesn’t sound like diannaart hates Apple

    It does sound like diannaart hates Apple. This person hates the fact that someone has got off their butt, designed, built, manufactured a product and then gets some profit from their hard work. lefties do not like this. They want the profit from someones hard work to be given to them. Most normal people would call this theft.

  79. The AIM Network

    Instead of making wild accusations about diannaart, why don’t you ask her yourself?

  80. Michael Taylor

    So now diannaart hates people who get off their butts to design, build, manufacture and sell a product for profit.

    My god you’re a warped little fellow.

  81. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    “I doubt if any profit has been shifted offshore. What people want is for Apple to pay tax like if the products we made in Australia. They are not made in Australia. They are made overseas”

    You would be totally wrong Neil (AGAIN).

    “Apple’s brand halo is slipping. Silicon Valley’s well-known vanity and contempt for government are amply displayed in Apple’s tax figures. Apple, a consumer products company that sells beautifully designed gadgets, pays very little tax anywhere in the world, including the United States.

    Ireland. Ireland is a tax haven. The European definition of a tax haven is a country that cuts deals with foreign companies that don’t do any business there.

    If Ireland were a legitimate low-tax country, all of Apple’s Irish affiliates would be paying the statutory 12.5% rate on their income. Instead, those Apple affiliates that do pay Irish tax appear to be paying a lower rate due to a special income calculation.

    Moreover, the Irish holding company and the Irish principal company have not paid any tax to any government for the past few years. Ireland allows some Irish companies to claim non-residence if they are related to a company that is doing business there. That enables Apple’s Irish principal company—through which most of its sales income flows—to pay tax nowhere.

    Cost-sharing agreement. The value in Apple products is attributable to its intellectual property. Apple’s intellectual property is in the United States, where it was developed. Strictly speaking, it is not parked in a tax haven.

    But Apple has an old contract with its Irish principal company and Irish operating company, called a cost-sharing agreement, that produces a similar effect to parking intellectual property in a tax haven—it gets the income from foreign sales out of the United States.

    The cost-sharing agreement divides Apple’s research and development expenses between U.S. and foreign uses according to sales. Apple’s Irish principal company and its subparent make small annual payments to the U.S. parent for use of valuable intellectual property, while collecting vastly more than that amount in sales revenues from other Apple affiliates.

    IRS regulations no longer permit this division of income without a significant upfront payment to the U.S. parent for use of intellectual property, but Apple may be claiming the benefit of the older, more permissive rules.”

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/leesheppard/2013/05/28/how-does-apple-avoid-taxes/#1a3485f2d6f7

  82. Möbius Ecko

    Have a look at the 7:30 Report tonight on exploited Fijian workers on 457 Visas who ended up with a pittance to zero pay after two weeks of hard work.

    That’s the world Neil wants us to degenerate down to.

  83. Wally

    Möbius Ecko

    My neighbour catches and exports live eels to China and Japan. This afternoon he described a factory in China he visited where the eels are processed and cooked. The employees work 12 hour rotating shifts 7 days a week and they rarely leave the factory which is also where they live. I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to work and live in the same building.

    His description sounded more like an ant colony than a place where humans should live, this is not a life it is barely an existence.

  84. Bacchus

    Neil is right – Apple SHOULDN’T pay tax in Australia for designing, building, manufacturing (isn’t that same as building?), wrapping and packaging their products.

    However, they DO operate their wholesale and retail businesses within Australia and ARE using immoral means to transfer their profits from those operations to lower tax jurisdictions – they have a huge turnover in Australia from which they are making huge profits, artificially manipulated by less than ethical (although still currently legal) means purely to avoid paying their fair share of tax on the PROFITS in Australia – THAT’s the tax they SHOULD be paying.

    (They should also be paying the taxes for “designing, building, manufacturing (isn’t that same as building?), wrapping and packaging their products” in the US, which it seems they’re also avoiding.)

  85. Michael Taylor

    Bacchus, so you also hate Apple and hate people who get off their butts to design, manufacture and sell their products for a profit. Go sit in the naughty corner with diannaart. 😉

  86. Neil of Sydney

    (They should also be paying the taxes for “designing, building, manufacturing (isn’t that same as building?), wrapping and packaging their products” in the US, which it seems they’re also avoiding.)

    That is what i think to. If anybody is being ripped off it is the American taxpayer.

    And if it is true that Apple is avoiding tax in Australia why doesn’t the ATO take them to court? I guess people say they are using legal but unethical means of avoiding tax. I doubt it would be a huge amount of money however. You can only tax Apple on the markup they put on their imported products.

    My neighbour catches and exports live eels to China and Japan.

    Does he pay tax to the Chinese and Japanese govts on the profit he makes?

  87. Kaye Lee

    Apparently head of the ATO Chris Jordan hates Apple too which is why they are being audited. He said that the evidence from tech companies and resources companies that their activity is not profit-shifting was false.

    “We do not accept these statements at face value,” Mr Jordan said. “We would assert that this is the point of the audits we are undertaking, to determine whether aggressive tax planning is taking place.”

    He took aim at specific companies, starting with Apple, which had claimed it was paying an appropriate “arms length price” for its products.
    Apple’s Tony King had said in earlier hearings that Apple Australia bought products such iPads and iPhones from overseas operations, and resold them. It then gets taxed on its local profit.

    Mr Jordan said the current ATO audit of Apple was contesting whether these affiliate sales were struck at the right price. He said media commentary had suggested that while the products are sold in countries like Australia the profit is transferred to low-tax jurisdictions. “To paint this picture, media reports have suggested Apple had an effective rate of 1.9 per cent on US$36 billion ($46 billion) in international earnings in 2012,” Mr Jordan said.

  88. Kaye Lee

    Apple set up some Irish subsidiaries a mere four years after it was founded. Foreign sales, which account for 60% of Apple’s profits, are routed through these Irish subsidiaries and taxed nowhere. How is this possible, when the intellectual property that supports the value of Apple’s products is in the United States?

    Apple has an Irish holding company with no operations or employees at the top of its foreign operations. This company also serves as a group finance company. Apple Inc., the U.S. parent of the whole group, pays U.S. tax on the investment earnings of this company. Otherwise, the holding company pays no tax to any government, and has not paid tax for five years. It claims tax residence nowhere.

    Beneath the holding company is an Irish principal company that holds the contracts with Apple’s Chinese contract manufacturers and owns the inventory they produce. It also claims tax residence nowhere, despite having paid some tax to Ireland in recent years, but at rate far below the statutory rate. It and another Apple operating affiliate share the foreign rights to Apple’s U.S. based technology.

  89. Michael Taylor

    My neighbour catches Chinese and Japanese people and feeds them to the eels.

  90. Neil of Sydney

    Apple’s Tony King had said in earlier hearings that Apple Australia bought products such iPads and iPhones from overseas operations, and resold them. It then gets taxed on its local profit.

    I would put money on Tony King telling the truth.

    We are now faced with the same thing with our auto industry. After Rudd/Gillard destroyed our auto industry we are going to fully import cars. Since they were designed and built overseas we can only tax on the markup. So if a dealer imports a car for $5,000 and sells it for $6,000 we can only tax them on the $1,000 markup. After expenses are deducted for shipping costs, salaries, showroom rental etc etc there is not much left to tax. Which explains why Apple only pays $74M in tax on $6B in sales.

  91. corvus boreus

    AIMN,
    Unacceptable, even in jest.
    Bye.

  92. Michael Taylor

    I agree. I will have it deleted.

  93. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    “My neighbour catches and exports live eels to China and Japan.
    Does he pay tax to the Chinese and Japanese govts on the profit he makes?”

    Certain every other reader knows the answer and I apologise for stating the bleeding obvious but just for you Neil.

    My neighbour pays tax on his income in Australia.
    The company who export the eels pays tax on profits in Australia.
    Chinese importer pays tax on their profits in China.
    The process factory pays tax on profit in China.
    Retailers of end product pay tax in country of sale.

  94. Neil of Sydney

    Wally

    Well thank you . i agree with everything you say in your last comment.

    But lefties want Apple to pay tax on the product they have designed, manufactured and packaged overseas.

    It is pure evil to want to tax Apple on something Australians have not contributed to. Typical political of envy by lefties.

    PS Michael you need to think twice about deleting a comment i believe with all my heart.

  95. Michael Taylor

    I’m sick of this rubbish. I’m taking a break.

  96. Neil of Sydney

    I’m sick of this rubbish. I’m taking a break.

    Well thanks Michael. I give you some credit. You allowed me to post. That must have been hard.

  97. diannaart

    FFS

    No, it doesn’t sound like diannaart hates Apple

    It does sound like diannaart hates Apple.

    You know nothing, Neil of Sydney. (Thanks GRR Martin)

    I own an Ipad, have every intention of upgrading my Ipad.

    I loath corporations taking dollars out of my country by not paying taxes AND underpaying their employees.

    That clear enough for you?

  98. Neil of Sydney

    I loath corporations taking dollars out of my country by not paying taxes AND underpaying their employees.

    Me too. Actually i have never heard that Apple is underpaying its employees in Australia. Do you have a link?

    And at the moment it is just an allegation that Apple is underpaying taxes in Australia. I guess it is possible but i doubt this is happening because the ATO would be on to it.

    Certain every other reader knows the answer and I apologise for stating the bleeding obvious but just for you Neil.

    Correct answer Wally. I just wish your lefties mates would come to the same conclusion re:Apple.

  99. diannaart

    Neil

    (I don’t know why I bother)

    …According to the filing, Apple increased its revenues from $4.9 billion in FY11 to $6 billion in FY12. But it claimed net profits fell to $58.5 million in the same period, resulting in a tax bill of $40 million.

    By comparison Australian retail chain Harvey Norman earned less in revenue ($1.4 billion) while paying more in taxes ($51 million) over the same period….

    http://www.brw.com.au/p/tech-gadgets/australian_government_hits_out_at_xLD5rDpSVdCgAK3K5XbtLK

    …and to reiterate the same facts everyone else here has politely explained to you – which is more than how you have treated yours truly and others:

    http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/01/last-year-apple-paid-80-million-in-tax-on-6-billion-revenue-in-australia/

    Apple made a tremendous amount of money last quarter worldwide — $18 billion, give or take a little bit. That figure could well be the largest ever quarterly company profit anywhere in the world. But last year, from the $6 billion that changed hands in Australia, only $80 million made its way to the Australian government as tax.

    As for underpaying staff – you are the one carping on and on and on about the designers and creators of Apple technology being paid adequately. Why even bring up this as a point, in your argument?

  100. Neil of Sydney

    (I don’t know why I bother)

    Me neither.

    I had a quick look at your links and it seems to me that Apple and Harvey Norman are similar. Both import stuff from overseas and sell it in Australia. As to the slightly higher tax paid by HN compared to Apple i will play devils advocate. Perhaps HN sells some things made and produced in Australia. With Apple everything is 100% imported. But i do not know. Also perhaps rents in HN stores are lower then in Apple stores. But the tax HN pays is not that different to what Apple pays.

    What i think your link shows is that any company that imports stuff from overseas does not make a lot of profit and does not pay much tax.

    As for underpaying staff – you are the one carping on and on and on about the designers and creators of Apple technology being paid adequately. Why even bring up this as a point, in your argument?

    You are the one who stated that Apple underpaid its staff. I have no idea if your allegation is true.

  101. Neil of Sydney

    By comparison Australian retail chain Harvey Norman earned less in revenue ($1.4 billion) while paying more in taxes ($51 million) over the same period

    $51M profit on $1,4B in revenue is 3.6% of turnover. That is higher than Apple (0.7%) but not that much higher. Perhaps HN puts a higher markup on their imported stuff compared to Apple.

  102. Rossleigh

    Yes, Neil, Apple’s mark-up in Australia is so low. Why you only have to compare it’s Australian prices to it’s American prices see how low it is!

    Are you really that stupid, or are you just pretending. I mean, it’s a serious question, Neil.
    If you’re working for the Labor Party, you’re doing an excellent job, because anybody reading your guff would be convinced that the Liberals were all idiots if you’re an example of their supporters.

  103. Wally

    Just taking the piss I think, no one who can spell could be that bloody stupid.

    “3.6% of turnover. That is higher than Apple (0.7%) but not that much higher”

    Only a bit over 5 time more or 500% more, not much at all???

  104. Neil of Sydney

    Yes, Neil, Apple’s mark-up in Australia is so low. Why you only have to compare it’s Australian prices to it’s American prices see how low it is!

    Not sure what you are on about. Many aussies are now purchasing stuff online to avoid the huge markup retailers place on the products they import. The point i was trying to make is that HN may be putting on a higher markup than Apple. I remember in the 1990’s it cost $250 for a pair of Reeboks in Australia but you could get them for $50 in the USA and they were made in China. Aussie retailers have to put huge markup to cover expenses. It is much cheaper to do business elsewhere which explains why most of our manufacturing has left.

  105. Möbius Ecko

    And Neil hijacks another thread by repeating the same unfounded nonsense over and over, along with adding his usual “I have no idea if (insert anything here) is true.

    The one thing Neil never addresses is the long string of major Liberal Party, Liberal Government and Liberal member failures. Things he regularly and repeatedly attacks Labor over he totally ignores on the Liberal side. Notice how he carefully picks his topics to derail. No addressing topics on Liberal failures with things like facts and data in them for Neil. Only topics he can derail with diversions to Labor and also with posts on “I have no idea” but I’m going post this shit anyway because it distracts the posters.

    Neil = Christensen, Bernardi and all the other plethora of right wing idiots that plague the top end of the Liberal party spectrum. He might or might not be one of them but he’s certainly of their mould.

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