86 comments

1. LozJanuary 21, 2015 at 7:32 pm

   If these sites are being taken down by government then we must be afraid, very afraid. Pls do keep us posted.

2. diannaartJanuary 21, 2015 at 7:45 pm

   OK, back to the yard to run around like a headless chook – yet again. Stuff like this freaks me out, but please keep me informed, maybe I should write too? Well, I will tweet it.

3. KerriJanuary 21, 2015 at 7:45 pm

   You are a very good man Michael Taylor

4. BlanikJanuary 21, 2015 at 7:47 pm

   This is going too far! There has to be something that the people can do, surely? In any normal democracy people would be burning cars and all the other stuff that people do when their government goes of its rocker. Yes spooks, that’s right and remember that you are also expendable.

   What have the 41%s done to our country?

5. corvus boreusJanuary 21, 2015 at 7:49 pm

   Michael T,
   The plot may be thickening.
   When I clicked on one of the dismantled CSIRO links (“projected to keep rising”) my computer detected and blocked malware.

6. RossleighJanuary 21, 2015 at 7:56 pm

   With rising sea levels, this is clearly an “Operational, on-water matter”!

7. RossleighJanuary 21, 2015 at 7:58 pm

   Ah, the plot thickening, corvus…
   Or did you mean “the thick may be plotting”?

8. rangermike1January 21, 2015 at 8:00 pm

   My Anti – Virus went one step further, It said that this Site was crippled with Viruses and would not let me access this site. I am going to try a work around using VPN or DOS Command. Let you know what happens. I have their IP add and will work from there.

9. Carol TaylorJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:02 pm

   I had a similar experience which happened not that long after Abbott came to power. I had been gathering data, quotes etc and had retained these in draft form. Due to other events, I had to take a break from writing and so my draft remained just where it was for about 3 weeks. When I returned to complete my article, I thought to check a some information and so clicked onto the links contained in drafts.

   A good portion of these links which included to government departments plus comments which Tony Abbott had made and had been reported in the Murdoch media were all error messages – they had disappeared. Yes you do get broken links but this was highly unusual that all should disappear suddenly. Not any conspiracy, I am just reporting events.

10. Hyper BollocksJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    http://www.climatechange.gov.au/

    Content on this website is being amended and moved to http://www.environment.gov.au to reflect changes under the Administrative Arrangement Orders. For information about the Australian Government’s climate change policy, including the Direct Action Plan and Emissions Reduction Fund, visit http://www.environment.gov.au/climate-change.

    Weird shit afoot.

11. Peter BallJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:14 pm

    Just a evil Government completely beholden to the Mining Industry and Liberal Party Donors , I’d like to see a Royal Commission into the Liberal Party and its Donors and the Jailing of the law breakers

12. rangermike1January 21, 2015 at 8:15 pm

    VPN does not work, as it does not relate to this format. Tried a simple Subroutine in C++ and the page was Blank. They have completely scrubbed the page. Tell me, What are they hiding ?

13. RossleighJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:16 pm

    And you thought I was just making it up!

    “1984” is dated, but “2084” is here for the reading … (apologies to George Orwell)

14. GricemanJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:24 pm

    Thanks for this information. I await response with baited breath.

15. rangermike1January 21, 2015 at 8:26 pm

    No Rossleigh, I was trying to find what had happened to the page. In no way was I trying to discredit You. Maybe someone that can look at these items, can be a help to you. I work in IT. I enjoy your Blogs, keep up the great work.

16. Kaye LeeJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:26 pm

    This has happened to many different links in stories I have written. Links to most of Tony’s speeches no longer work, videos of him saying weird stuff have “expired”. The same when I click on links to government pages that I have read previously. Everything is being deleted, or moved, or expired, or updated. Which is why, whenever you quote a link, you should give a short précis of what the article is about with pertinent quotes. I have been able to track down most things that have been removed by looking at archives. They may try to whitewash history but there are too many of us recording it for them to be successful. And let me tell you Peta, I intend to remind everyone I can reach. The more you try to hide, the more exposed you become.

17. Kirsten TonaJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:29 pm

    rangermike and corvus boreus… please tell me you are joking. o.O

    Goddammit.

    Should I have plastic surgery and leave the country, do you think, guys? 😉 (Or at least back-up my hard drive, lol.)

    Seriously, it’s a bloody worry. I came across that site almost by accident, deep in the bowels of an obscure, dreary report while I was researching the story; it certainly was not being promoted.

    It’s true, we do have a right to that information. If there is even a perception that it has been censored we need to demand an explanation. It was very good site, btw! I wish I’d taken more screenshots; the data was invaluable.

    I do not plan to let this go. Thank you, Michael, for pursuing the matter. Over at newpolitics.com.au we will do our own follow-up and keep AIMN and your readers informed of the answers we get…or fail to get.

    Sigh. It’s a pretty bad sign, when we have to fight this kind of battle simply to get some already published data from the country’s major public scientific institution. I can see no legitimate excuse for keeping it from us.

    Let’s hope the govt.’s social media spies get the message, and reinstate the website asap. Just tell us it was temporarily down for maintenance, boys, we promise to pretend to believe you. -_-

18. John FraserJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:31 pm

    <

    Looks like it might pay to start taking screenshots of government documents.

    http://www.take-a-screenshot.org/

19. John FraserJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:35 pm

    <

    Perhaps its time to start asking where Abbotts RN form is.

    Again.

    https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/a-gem-or-a-dual-tony-abbotts-lying-ingate,7086

20. Florence nee FedupJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:36 pm

    Kaye, they are wasting their time. As you say,. we can find them in archives. Once the links are these and other sites, they are back in circulation. They cannot strip everything. Too much on other sites.

    Does not matter when it comes to CC. It is once again growing legs, coming to the forefront. Even Obama highlighted it today.

    I wonder if anyone will get around to listing all bodies, NGO an advisory bobbies they have dismantle. They are still closing on a daily basis. Many community support groups no longer exist. Ley will have trouble liaising with doctor groups and other health people. The groups that gave advice no longer exist.

21. Kirsten TonaJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    Kaye Lee: screen shots are your friend, here. Mind you, they can be faked (as I know well…long story…) so might not stand up as legal evidence…. Does anyone have legal/IT forensics experience in this area that they can share with us?

    Also, when I come across information I think may be changed (e.g. Wikipedia entries on public figures) I often copy/paste it into a plaintext program and keep the original text on file that way.

    Useful tricks which we should not need.

22. Hyper BollocksJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:38 pm

    So, while the Government is busy trying to make CSIRO data disappear, the Greens have it available on their website, right? Right? Um, right?

23. Florence nee FedupJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:39 pm

    The CSIRO will not be the only site tis is happening. I believe much disappeared from health and education for starters. Gonski might be hard to find. Trouble is, we do not know what is missing.

24. rangermike1January 21, 2015 at 8:41 pm

    Whose side are we on really ? Sometimes it seems like I am pushing a barrow uphill for the Labor Party. Best I keep stum and let the Liberals take control again.

25. Eric GeeJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:44 pm

    Evernote is marvellous for storing web pages. You can save entire pages complete with with graphics, etc. with a click of your mouse, and easily retrieve content later with keywords. etc.

26. RoswellJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:47 pm

    My money’s on the conspiracy theory.

27. stephentardrewJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:47 pm

    It’s a worry.

28. KeithJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:49 pm

    The fear has been expressed that with Republican Senators being nominated to oversee NASA and NOAA that links to new science papers will be lost; there is a decided mistrust of politicians and particularly the neocon variety . I gather that Abbott sought to have material from the Climate Commission erased. The equivalent to burning books.

29. Möbius EckoJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:49 pm

    Easiest is to save the page or pages. Browsers have this ability in their menus and you can also get add-ons that allow saving to pdf. The advantage of doing it this way is all the formatting, layouts, images and links remain intact.

    As stated Evernote is truly excellent to do this.

30. RoswellJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:52 pm

    Hyper Bollocks, how certain are you that it’s the same data?

31. RoswellJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:55 pm

    Saving web sites wouldn’t explain why it was taken down.

32. CMMCJanuary 21, 2015 at 8:59 pm

    You do know the Abbott regime proudly announced last year they were paying consultants to monitor the blogosphere and social networking?

    The avowed reasoning back then was that “the Government is misrepresented on many of these sites and efforts must be made to ensure balance”, or some such drivel.

    They obviously have employed a legion of ‘script-kiddies’, borderline hackers, to take websites down by the same methods computer-virus programmers use.

33. Kirsten TonaJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:02 pm

    corvus boreus and ranger mike, please tell me you are joking!

    Should I have plastic surgery and leave the country, do you thing, guys? 😉 (Or at least, back up my hard drive, lol…)

    But seriously, I’m very uncomfortable about this. I found that website — “Climate Change In Australia” — almost by accident, deep in the bowels of an obscure, dreary report, while I was researching the story. I was incensed that it was not well-known: it should have been promoted all over the country. Very valuable (and reliable) data, produced by very reputable experts. To see the entire website disappear after I’d drawn a small amount of attention to it is infuriating.

    Thanks for your work on this, Michael. Over at newpolitics.com.au we will do our own follow-up; we’ll make sure AIMN and your readers are kept informed of the answers we get…or fail to get.

    Sigh. What kind of times do we live in? When data that has already been published, from the country’s major public scientific institute, disappears this way and we have to take on a big battle to get access to it?! I certainly agree with John that we have every right to see it, it was indeed taxpayer-funded. And this is the kind of real information that we NEED, if we are to plan for our future, on an individual.family level, community level, state-wide and continent-wide. This is critical knowledge for determining public policy AND for helping the voter decide which party’s policies they prefer.

    Tell you what… hey you, yes you, govt’s social media spies … I’ll make a pact with you. Put the website—uncensored—back online pronto, and in return we promise to pretend to believe you when you tell us it was just down temporarily for uncontroversial scheduled maintenance. There’s a good deal for you. 🙂

    (oh, btw, THANK YOU rossleigh for finding the funny side. “The thicks are plotting” HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I am most definitely going to use that one 😀 )

    (one more thing. This is the second time I’ve written this comment. The first one disappeared. I did everything correctly; pressed submit…and then, nothing. It did not come up. Michael, I am hoping that was a moderator error? Please tell me that it was; I’m fresh out of Valium…. 😉

34. Kirsten TonaJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:08 pm

    Well ^that came up fine. What happened to the other ones???

35. Hyper BollocksJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:21 pm

    Kirsten – it’s called a “spam filter”. No-one knows why it doesn’t work properly, especially WordPress.

36. David BoxallJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:21 pm

    Have you tried Pandora? http://pandora.nla.gov.au/

37. Florence nee FedupJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:22 pm

    Chris Berg was of IPA fame was on Drum tonight. Was not following closely but one comment he made, that Abbott should be telling his story. Yes, he said, he has one. Went onto add, he needs to begin announcing tax cuts now and in next budget.

    I assume, he means to those at the top. For a budget emergency where everything has to be cut, how can cutting revenues even more help?

38. rossleighbrisbaneJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:29 pm

    I’m watching “Searching for Sugarman” and wishing I could post a link to “Establishment Blues” (Rodriguez)!

39. AnomanderJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:30 pm

    Does this mean sites like AIMN are being monitored and making the government scared? I seriously hope so.

40. Kirsten TonaJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:43 pm

    Hyper Bollocks, are there specific criteria for what gets treated as spam? Too many words? Using certain words? Why would they have refused that post, do you have any idea?

41. RizJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:46 pm

    Fortunately, the site is still available theough the internet archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20141218123029/http://climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au/

    It’s a brilliant tool ;*)

42. lawrencewinderJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:46 pm

    Yes Thot Plickening, via “The Coots-With-Queer-Ideas-from-a-Parallel-Universe” ( the bloody IPA) in their 100 thought-bubble wish list that Rabid-the-Hun is working his way through.
    .. and I too have had some comments not posted…

43. Kirsten TonaJanuary 21, 2015 at 9:47 pm

    Well! I tried posting it once more (I’d copied the text this time) and an error message came up saying: “Duplicate comment–you’ve already posted that.”

    Which I have, yes, but it still has not appeared on this page!

    Oh bollocks, I’ve had enough of this. Ima gonna get a beer and watch Walking Dead…oh no, maybe something else, the zombies remind me too much of the last election.

44. Kirsten TonaJanuary 21, 2015 at 10:02 pm

    Yay; comment got up 🙂
    Now I think I’ve earned that beer….

45. lazerzap (@lazerzap)January 21, 2015 at 11:34 pm

    Correct Riz.. https://web.archive.org/web/20140912160755/http://www.climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au/index.php Still contains all documents.. (I wonder for how long? – Never mind.. I just saved every document and each page to my PC – I will upload them to one of my servers in the next few days – They THINK they can hide the information?? 2 types of people in this world.. The Information RICH and the Information POOR – I am not a member of the latter group) Please message me on twitter if your unable to access the documents and I will make them available sooner rather than later..

46. Ruth LipscombeJanuary 22, 2015 at 2:42 am

    Thank you Michael.I too hope the ‘Loot n Pillage’ mob,also known as the LNP are monitoring this website so they know how many citizens are totally opposed to their regime.
    Thank you to an Environmental group for coming up with the ‘Loot n Pillage’ moniker.

47. iggy648January 22, 2015 at 7:15 am

    All the relevant info is available here. So whoever deleted the articles is just trying to make it harder to find, or embarrass AIMN. Shame on whoever (CSIRO or Govt.) deleted them. Download the PDF. http://www.csiro.au/Outcomes/Climate/Understanding/State-of-the-Climate-2014.aspx

48. corvus boreusJanuary 22, 2015 at 7:40 am

    I do not consider myself especially idealistic or naive when it comes to governments and their respect of the citizenry (or lack thereof), but it is a little disturbing to think that not only are they conducting a scorched earth policy regarding climate information, but that they may be actively poisoning factual watering holes.
    I suppose it is the sort of immoral, deceptive and malicious conduct that should be expected when the CEO of the nation (Varanus tonii) is a sleazy creature that proudly brags of its sporting ‘exploits’ in the form of vicious cheating through both verbal and physical assaults(sledging and ‘king-hitting”).
    If someone is a slimy, sadistic cheat on the sports field, they will likely be a slimy, sadistic cheat in any field they take to.

49. Kaye LeeJanuary 22, 2015 at 8:36 am

    cb,

    My husband occasionally played rugby against Tony (though hubby was usually in the firsts and Tony wasn’t). He wasn’t very good. He had a much higher opinion of his ability than was warranted there too.

50. richard grantJanuary 22, 2015 at 10:14 am

    On the question of Minister’s replying to emails. How do I know if the email is actually read or for that matter received. If the subject heading in the email is climate change or Higher Education could they automatically go to Trash Can in the Minister’s Office. What is the story.

51. diannaartJanuary 22, 2015 at 10:16 am

    I have just stopped my headless chook running routine to say thank you, thank you to AIMN – never give up and to newpolitics.com.au and to everyone for contributing knowledge and ideas.

    Great things are done by a series of small things brought together.
    Vincent Van Gogh

52. BlanikJanuary 22, 2015 at 10:32 am

    I have found that If I include ‘I look forward to your reply’ I get a reply. However, It’s been a long time since I written to any of the fascists so maybe that doesn’t apply in their case. It wouldn’t surprise me.

53. Heather (@HEB2205)January 22, 2015 at 11:19 am

    Wow! I worked for CSIRO in communications before I retired. This is unprecedented (and clumsy). Not normal at all.

54. HarquebusJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Governments all over are becoming secretive, militarizing police forces, eroding liberties and freedoms and at the same time, want to know everything we are doing and thinking. This is a very worrying trend and it is happening for a reason. TPTB (The powers that be) know what’s coming and are preparing for it. So should we.
    http://dailycaller.com/2015/01/20/edward-snowden-says-iphones-are-loaded-with-secret-spyware/

55. JexpatJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:21 pm

    Harquebus: you do realise that “the daily caller” is a right wing extremist site that’s as roundly ridiculed as Fox “news?”

56. Michael TaylorJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:43 pm

    Off topic but probably the best spot for this:

    “Journalists reporting on asylum seekers referred to Australian police”

    http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/jan/22/journalists-reporting-on-asylum-seekers-referred-to-australian-police

57. Florence nee FedupJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:44 pm

    I wonder how legal it is, if they go in the trash can. Always tag for receipt when sent.

58. JexpatJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:45 pm

    Michael:

    That’s yet another bit to bear in mind whenever some disingenuous ideologue carries on about “free speech.”

59. Michael TaylorJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:45 pm

    Part of the response received today advises that:

    The error message you have reported on the climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au website has been reported to IT to investigate further.

60. Michael TaylorJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:46 pm

    So true, Jexpat.

61. HarquebusJanuary 22, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    @Jexpat.
    The messenger’s reputation does not alter the message.
    Thanks anyway.
    Cheers.

62. JexpatJanuary 22, 2015 at 2:04 pm

    Harquebus:

    Yes it does.

    Source credibility matters in any rational discussion.

    Moreover, it’s not simply the credibility of the underlying source, but the credibility (or discretion) of the person relying on the source.

    Hence, one of the things skilled researchers are taught to do is review the end notes of references first before delving into the meat of an article or other publication.

    ps: that’s not meant as any sort of personal slam, but more in the spirit of a friendly fyi.

63. diannaartJanuary 22, 2015 at 2:46 pm

    Not so sure it is off topic, Michael

    “Journalists reporting on asylum seekers referred to Australian police”

    after-all we are talking about access to information

    ” That’s yet another bit to bear in mind whenever some disingenuous ideologue carries on about “free speech.”

    The right to free-speech only applies to RWNJ’s

64. stephentardrewJanuary 22, 2015 at 3:10 pm

    Whoops just posted what you posted Michael over there in tother one.

    Some so blind they cannot see.

65. Florence nee FedupJanuary 22, 2015 at 3:36 pm

    Did not Dutton say the PNG government and police are in charge.

66. Florence nee FedupJanuary 22, 2015 at 3:38 pm

    I care not whether they think it is OK to ignore emails from public. They might delete them, but records that they existed will still be there. Love don the track, when we have that f\Federal ICAC, being asked what was in the missing emails.

67. Florence nee FedupJanuary 22, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    This mob are so blind, they do not know they can see.. Abetz today saying there is no other option when it comes to the budget. There are always options. There are always choices. Abbott begging his team to follow him. Seem to think he cannot be dumped, as one cannot dump first term PM.

68. colgradolfcol gradolfJanuary 22, 2015 at 10:51 pm

    I just clicked on the links and they worked.

69. Michael TaylorJanuary 22, 2015 at 10:57 pm

    Great. They did reply that their IT gurus were looking into it.

70. iggy648January 23, 2015 at 8:04 am

    Hoo dunnit?

71. TonyJanuary 28, 2015 at 7:44 pm

    Let’s hope it was a government directive for CSIRO to stick to science and what it proves rather than peddling pseudo sceince modelling on “what the future cliamte may look like”, a task that has n omore credibility than a witch doctor forecasting the future climate. CSIRO has a fine reputation that should not be trashed by the current man-made climate change fad.

72. RossleighJanuary 28, 2015 at 7:49 pm

    Gee, is Tony one of the paid Liberal idiots, or is he doing it for free?

73. Kaye LeeJanuary 28, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    Would YOU pay for him to represent you? I’d pay him to not support me. I prefer people who know what they are talking about.

74. BlanikJanuary 29, 2015 at 10:27 am

    I can’t believe that the PM has time in his busy schedule to commented in here. Well said, Tony. What a leaner. hahahaha

75. MurphyJanuary 29, 2015 at 3:01 pm

    ‘OOPS!!!

    This site is currently unavailable

    If you are the owner of this site, please contact us at 1-480-505-8855 at your earliest convenience.’

    Is at this moment,

    ‘Page not found

    Updated Climate Change Information is now available. For the latest reports and information return Home.

    Climate Change in Australia 2007 technical report and other materials can be accessed from http://ccia2007.climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au ‘

76. LOVOFebruary 8, 2015 at 2:45 pm

    Can anyone remember the Home Insulation Program info that went missing from the CSIRO website after Possum Comitatus wrote an article? What happened then is still happening…or so it would seem. Very worrying indeed and oh so wrong!!!!

77. The AIM NetworkFebruary 8, 2015 at 3:04 pm

    Yes, we remember that LOVO. Very sus.

78. John FraserFebruary 8, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    <

    Bookcase Brandis says unlike Labor the Liberals get on with it.

    John Kelly begs to differ and did so on 23 January 2015.

    Backbench Revolt Looming

    THE AIMN strikes again.

    The only reason Abbott changed the date is for his own personal reasons.

    "“The only question for our party is do we want reduce ourselves to the level of the Labor Party in dragging down a first-term prime minister?”

    Stop wondering who Abbott is talking about in the 3rd person ….. its Abbott's desperation talking about Abbott.

79. BlanikFebruary 8, 2015 at 6:06 pm

    Shirtfront Abbott brought the date forward because he was afraid to face parliament question time on Monday. That was his only own personal reason.

80. lawrencesrobertsFebruary 8, 2015 at 6:39 pm

    Yet another Captains Pick He promised not to make.

81. SonnyFebruary 11, 2015 at 2:44 pm

    http://ccia2007.climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au/ Looks like the old site is down, this is the new link.
    http://ccia2007.climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au/futureclimate.php
    http://ccia2007.climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au/pastchange.php
    Worked fine for me

82. BlanikFebruary 11, 2015 at 3:21 pm

    I hate to be cynical – yes I really do – but I just wonder how the new sanitized version compares with the version that was deleted.

    I am awful!

83. RizFebruary 11, 2015 at 5:03 pm

    You can compare the versions, Blanik. Use the Wayback Machine at http://archive.org/web to find the original website – I put the direct link in an earlier post on this thread.

84. BlanikFebruary 11, 2015 at 5:30 pm

    Thanks Riz. That’s how I remember it. Nothing like the current tripe. Who would have thought that the Australian government would hide reports that concern our future just because the captain says to? I guess I am a cynic.I’ll see if I can post it on my FB.

85. Abel AdamskiApril 4, 2015 at 10:44 pm

    Worth considering
    http://www.salon.com/2015/03/22/5_signs_america_is_devolving_into_a_plutocracy_partner/

    Not just America. Plutocracies always devolve into Totalitarian States, the media is always complicit, mat I say their active participation is essential.

    I personally use print to PDF , PDF Forge has a good free product – can be locked and password protected.
    I often paste to One Note as all the link Metadata is displayed. Then print to PDF.

    I started that 10 years ago and I noted articles being “edited” “altered”, versions can now be compared.

    Those metadata laws have nothing to do with terrorism or crime (watch the “proof” suddenly appear they do) , they are about protecting powerful entities and organisation from whistle blowers and exposure.

    Be afraid, one could suggest Revelations is unfolding, evil is gaining increasing power and control

86. LOVOApril 5, 2015 at 8:16 pm

    Abel, I can not see how the book of revelations has anything to do with anything ‘unfolding’.
    Firstly- there are no gods- thus the bible is but a fairy tale and Revelations is but so much pphhhutt…….. and as for the evil is rising bit….. well…… ok..I’ll give you that one, Abbott and Co. ARE increasingly 👿 BASTARDS.
    And secondly, I find that looking under the bed before I go to sleep a verily good plan(B)….. ’cause, mate, ya never knows, ay…. ya just never knows 😉 …oh and you do understand the relationship about PDF’s and the bible??…don’t you???? !!