660 comments

1. David StephensNovember 26, 2015 at 10:48 am

   We commented on the Anzac link http://honesthistory.net.au/wp/anzac-lest-we-forget-feature-in-reclaim-australia-rallies/

2. Mark NeedhamNovember 26, 2015 at 10:55 am

   As you say, some people have different views to you. So do not worry about it. let them go, they are not hurting you, are they!

   So you will accord that same right to Reclaim.

   Shaking head in disbelief,
   Mark Needham

3. Ruth LNovember 26, 2015 at 11:37 am

   Well said .This mob pose more danger to the average Australian than the people they are protesting about.

4. Mark NeedhamNovember 26, 2015 at 11:52 am

   “Frankly, the very thought of your organisation existing, and people who I possibly stand next to at the supermarket, and drive with on the roads, and maybe even live nearby, supporting your cause is terrifying.”

   Yes, I see your point. You are “scared” of them, so you must “protest” their right to exist.

   Exactly as they “protest”.

   This is what a democracy is all about. But you seem to have a problem with democracy, Hey!

   ?
   Mark Needham

5. Catriona ThoolenNovember 26, 2015 at 11:58 am

   Actually Mark Needham they are hurting us. They are creating fear where none need exist. They are creating division, where none need exist. They are trying to change Australia to make it a worse place to live.

   I would be happy to leave them alone, when they stop trying to change Australia from the country of a ‘fair go’ to some sort of totalitarian state that set rules of behaviour…but only rules that suit them.

6. RoswellNovember 26, 2015 at 12:07 pm

   Well said, Catriona. Stupid people will fail to grasp your simple explanation, unfortunately.

7. mars08November 26, 2015 at 12:08 pm

   I don’t see any evidence of Victoria protesting Exactly as they “protest”. That said, I can only assume that she doesn’t have a Southern Cross tattoo or a flag cape…

8. RosemaryJ36November 26, 2015 at 12:11 pm

   The only people entitled to Reclaim Australia would be our first people!
   And Mark Needham – those who claim to be reclaiming Australia may be entitled to their view but spreading hatred – or attempting to do so – is a matter for real concern in a multicultural country.

9. mars08November 26, 2015 at 12:21 pm

   @RosemaryJ36… I hope I have started something by responding to the troll bait. Best let him jibber to himself…

10. longwhitekidNovember 26, 2015 at 12:28 pm

    Mark Needham seemingly never tires of being a child with a difficult stool to expel.

11. Adrianne HaddowNovember 26, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    Well written Victoria.

    We don’t need hate groups clogging up our already fraught democracy.

    Totally agree with you that Australia doesn’t belong to us, we belong to it, and with you, Rosemary.
    The only people entitled to Reclaim Australia are our indigenous people.
    But they’re too busy fighting off fracking ventures, and mining ventures on their native titles to have time to wrap themselves in flags and preach hate.

    Besides look what happened to Adam Goodes when he stood up and spoke out. Vilified by the same types who feel they have a right to reclaim our country.

12. Wayne TurnerNovember 26, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    Sorry they can’t read. They certainly can’t think.

13. silkwormNovember 26, 2015 at 12:45 pm

    What is an Israeli flag doing at a Nazi rally? Have the Nazis finally forgiven the Jews for rejecting Christ?

14. donwrefordNovember 26, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    I am unsure as to whether I am a simple person that is unable to grasp what this article is about? Just before I arrived in Australia Gough Whitlam had been ousted by the CIA and British intelligentsia, or establishment? I am saying that when Gough spoke on buying back the farm? this means that overseas economic and political interests, I regard this Prime Minister as Australia’s greatest from inception to now, I believe Australians either have forgotten this man or they are political unaware? if as this article suggests Australia belongs to those who live here? I am saying the high cost of living and the now National debt is all part of Australia no longer belonging to Australians? as far as politics go as one can see the recent meeting of Turnbull and Obama when Turnbull strained over to here the President speak as you can see he lent to far? this grovelling may have been missed by most but it was not missed by me? also America decided that American troops were to be installed in the Darwin area? no conversation in Parliament made a decision on this troop intake to NT, showing Australia is not a political sovereign country? I can give many examples of Australia as a inferior even as far as the flag is of concern?
    Are the commentators on this article stupid? and the article is misleading? I suggest before stating that Australia belongs to those who live here we should have a revaluation of meaning?

15. Keitha GranvilleNovember 26, 2015 at 1:01 pm

    I was confused by a girl at the front of a parade wearing a star of David on her T-shirt. Do they know what that represents ?
    I too am bothered by people who want to stir hatred and bigotry in our community. They are totally entitled to their opinions, and they can stand on any Speakers Corner box and spout it. But shouting hate and racism and bigotry in a parade designed to frighten small children and pets, and most peace loving Australians, is not on.

16. kathysutherland2013November 26, 2015 at 1:06 pm

    Beautiful, Victoria! And, Mark, didn’t you get it? What Victoria is not objecting to the Reclaim peoples’ right to exist, she’s objecting to them spreading fear and hate and terror.

17. David BruceNovember 26, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    Nice article, but I think when you read this, there are more issues to address:
    http://www.abeldanger.net/2015/11/federal-reserve-notes-frns-are-ious.html#more

    We need permission from the entity we created (government) for most anything we do in life.

18. LeeNovember 26, 2015 at 1:16 pm

    Mark Needham, Reclaim Australia claims to speak on behalf of Australians. That includes me yet I don’t agree with their views and I didn’t elect them to represent mine.

    I also noticed that at their recent rally, someone was holding up a sign containing “Islam violates women” and some of the Reclaim Australia yobbos were threatening to rape women. The right to their opinion does not include desires and threats to harm others. Nor does it include claims to represent people they have no right to represent.

    Since you’re defending Reclaim Australia I can only conclude that you don’t object to violent acts being performed against innocent people either.

19. mickNovember 26, 2015 at 2:17 pm

    HAHA…Exactly. To all the haters of our far from perfect yet envy of the world peaceful, educated, pluralistic, multicultural smorgasbord ofa country…If you don’t love it, leave it.

    As Jello Biafra once sang in Stars and Stripes of Corruption, “If you want a banana republic so bad, why don’t you go move to one.”

20. diannaartNovember 26, 2015 at 3:34 pm

    Excellent article Victoria.

    I have to wonder what these groups like Reclaim, make of white Anglo-Saxon Muslims or black African Christians or even first Australian people who may be Dreamtime or Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or calathumpian or even atheist.

    I guess thinking things through is not a priority for bigots.

21. Mark NeedhamNovember 26, 2015 at 4:09 pm

    “totalitarian state that set rules of behaviour…but only rules that suit them.” Catriona Thoolen, or, that suit you. You can not have it both ways.

    Yes, we definitely do not want this. Exactly what I am saying.

    Reclaim, really are a bunch of people who have a view that differs from mine. But don’t you think, they have a right to express those views.
    Lee November 26, 2015 at 1:16 pm. Defending Reclaim.?? No, I am not.
    I am defending their right to be wrong. I have even defended Labour views. You may conlude whatever you fancy, just do not put words in writing, that I have not said.
    !
    Mark Needham

22. mars08November 26, 2015 at 4:30 pm

    The Ku Klux Klan are a bunch of people who have a view that differs from mine… but that’s fine… they’re harmless.

23. LeeNovember 26, 2015 at 4:50 pm

    “But don’t you think, they have a right to express those views.”

    If they’re going to express those views as their own, instead of claiming to speak on behalf of others that includes those who don’t agree with them, that’s fine. If they’re threatening violence to innocent people (e.g. threatening to rape women who don’t agree with them), no they don’t have the right to do that.

24. corvus boreusNovember 26, 2015 at 5:02 pm

    Apart from the sheer stupidity of many of the claims made by representatives of the organisation calling itself ‘Reclaim Australia’, I have serious issues with the fact that it is providing a platform for the cynical political ambitions of some very loopy/shady people.
    Folk like Danny Nalliah of ‘Rise Up Australia’ (and ‘catch the fire’ ministries) and the goons from the ‘United Patriots Front’.
    I don’t approve of ‘community movements’ operating as a front for fundamentalist zealots and racist extremists.

25. jimhazNovember 26, 2015 at 5:28 pm

    Well, I don’t have a problem with what is driving them, particularly as we now have a Muslim party – but I have not heard anyone express themselves well enough for me to have any interest. Too many cowboys for me. Would like to see a more moderate party express much the same thing.

26. makeourvoiceheard.comNovember 26, 2015 at 5:31 pm

    Is Mark Needham an anagram for George Brandis? The right to be a bigot, the right for free speech, the right to terrorise the community? Those “rights” don’t go ad infinitum, Mark. Inciting fear and terror, and encouraging violence goes beyond acceptable rights of free speech, and this lot are clearly all up for a bit of aggro.

27. lawrencewinderNovember 26, 2015 at 5:52 pm

    Delightful essay… pity they A/ wouldn’t be able to read it; and B/ understand it if they could read!

28. Mark DurlNovember 26, 2015 at 6:14 pm

    isnt it funny? i was at the most recent reclaim rally in brisbane, because i wanted to make a neutral, objective record of what was being said by both sides. now i find it somewhat distasteful that reclaim are being vilified for speaking their minds. if you really want to call them bigots, maybe you should at the audience they had, i saw asians, indians, a fair few other ethnic types as well. they had no objection to what was being said, and yet supposedly reclaim are racists. yet i also listened to the other side, all i heard was the same chants over and over again, along with some very nasty words that they should not have been saying with children present. so i would suggest before anyone rushes to yell “bigot” or “racist”, that they take a look at their own prejudices because by protesting against reclaim, you are exhibiting prejudice as well. a prejudice against free speech. im not saying that i agree with their message, all im saying is dont be so quick to condemn,

29. GlendaNovember 26, 2015 at 6:33 pm

    Victoria, I will dispute that you say our Christmas, Easter and other religious events are not and will not change when just this morning in Victoria it was announced that public schools are not permitted to sing Christmas carols so as not to offend.
    So if Christians decided to have a Christian certification you would be ok with having say the lords pray said over meat as it is butchered? And then an extra Christian fee put on all items you purchase? As is what is happened with the halal certification? And you would happily pay it?

30. Mark NeedhamNovember 26, 2015 at 6:44 pm

    No sense talking any more, when a comment gets deleted, removed.
    I know that Diarrhea comes out of ” makeourvoiceheard” as a part anagram. You started this.
    Mark Needham

31. RayzorNovember 26, 2015 at 6:50 pm

    You Hit the nail on the head Glenda. Anyone just needs to go and have a look at history to know what the problem is. Remember the romans changed the name from Juda to Palestine. took away the Jews home. so just look up your history and you will find Islam is evil in its purest form. That’s how terrorist are born. Reclaim Australia are in their right to oppose the infiltrator’s of the invaders of Islam. I don’t see any problem with any other type of people living here in Australia as they cause no problems. Only Islam wants to take over.

32. Jadzia BenntleyNovember 26, 2015 at 6:54 pm

    No Glenda, hymns have been banned in state schools. Secular Christmas carols, jingle bells, rudolph the red nosed reindeer etc, are all still quite acceptable.

33. Michael BNovember 26, 2015 at 6:58 pm

    “If you don’t like the religion of Islam, don’t be Islamic. If you don’t like Islamic cultural practices, don’t practice them. If you don’t like Islamic people, leave them alone. They’re not hurting you, so why are you attacking them?”

    Well that is an interesting viewpoint, and debatable. One could also say that if you don’t like a workplace, or any place, that doesn’t have a prayer room, then don’t ask for one. Go elsewhere. But you would of course object to that. Why is that? And on the subject of prayers, at what point would it be hurting (and I don’t mean physically)? 6 prayers a day? 10 prayers a day? 50 prayers a day? At what point would you not be willing to tolerate it? If I was employed by you and believed in a God that required me to pray 5 times per day, it seems you would be fine with that. What if I believed I had to pray 50 times per day, would you still be willing tolerate that? I bet not. So would that make you a racist and bigot? No. It would make financial sense to not tolerate that.

    And that’s what I’m getting from this article, and in particular that paragraph. Seems Victoria Rollison and others who share these views are basically saying “Your tolerance level should be the same as mine, and if it’s not, you’re a ‘racist’ and a ‘bigot”” *yawn*

    So tell me, what if it’s me who would be willing to tolerate a worker praying 50 times per day and not you, would that make you racist?

    I know it’s only your opinion, but why should we have to wait until it hurts YOU until something is done. Try also telling one in four Swedish women that they should just be left alone.

34. Miriam EnglishNovember 26, 2015 at 8:04 pm

    Great post, Victoria.

    There is a very neat tactic used by racists and bigots whenever they are called out for spouting their hate. They cry free speech and the right to their opinions. It tends to confuse good and tolerant people and let the bigots get away with stuff they shouldn’t be able to, but I’m onto this.

    What we need is a simple rule to unmask them: We should allow almost anything except intolerance. It’s a nice paradox. Be intolerant of intolerance. It has a great advantage over most normal rules for dealing with small-minded racist fools or religious maniacs. It comes into being only when needed and undoes itself as soon as the need is over.

    Racism, religious bigotry, economic thuggery, classism, misogyny, and other similar forms of intolerance that hurt people, all these grow and become more powerful as they overcome their opponents. They are dangerous, self-reinforcing modes of thought.

    Intolerance of intolerance comes into being only when called into existence by those bigots. As soon as the threat is dissipated this nice paradox kills itself off. It can’t continue, because that would be to perpetuate intolerance, which is intolerable.

    We should never tolerate those who hurt people and spout hate speech. Their agenda is not always visible to themselves, but the end result is just as genuine as if they intended it: they weaken and damage society. Intolerance is the enemy of a peaceful society. A peaceful society depends, more than anything else, on trust. Intolerance breeds hate, fear, and distrust. Don’t put up with it.

    Interestingly, intolerance of intolerance is agnostic regarding politics, religion, race, class, or nationality. It applies equally to Christian extremists (thankfully we haven’t imported too many of those from USA yet), Muslim extremists, Hindu extremists, extremist capitalists, extremist communists (pretty rare nowadays), and many other crazy groups.

    So next time a racist bully tries to cry about free speech or their right to an opinion, tell them that you won’t tolerate intolerance.

35. RoswellNovember 26, 2015 at 8:13 pm

    You’ve stirred the pot with this one, Victoria. Great stuff.

36. mars08November 26, 2015 at 8:47 pm

    ” i saw asians, indians, a fair few other ethnic types as well. they had no objection to what was being said… “

    hhmmm… Asians, Indians and other ethnic types can’t be bigots? Fascinating!

    ” … reclaim are being vilified for speaking their minds…”

    If the hate they preach and the rubbish on their signs is any indication of what’s in their minds… that’s a seriously sick bunch of morons.

37. JenniferNovember 26, 2015 at 8:53 pm

    something many of you fail to see is that at the rally in Sydney last weekend, one of the guest speakers was Daniel Nalliah from Rise Up Australia. Reclaim Australia must be very racist because this speaker is originally from Sri Lanka, has worked as a human rights activist and now an Australian citizen. And I, of aboriginal descent, must be racist too in that I want to see Australia continue on as multi ethnic. Whilst I enjoy many of the people who have come to this country, there are cultures that do not want to assimilate into society and continue to impose their archaic laws. This is not needed or wanted in Australia. Come, assimilate, put Australia before your religion and there wont be a problem.

38. corvus boreusNovember 26, 2015 at 9:11 pm

    Jennifer,
    No, Daniel Nalliah is not a racist (to my knowledge).
    He is, however, an intolerant religious bigot pushing an extreme fundamentalist viewpoint.

39. Mark NeedhamNovember 26, 2015 at 9:15 pm

    Victoria Rollison

    Victoria is intolerant of any one else having a say.
    As are most of the everyday posters on this site.
    To have a differing opinion, is not on. To be Wrong or Right is human. To deny a say is intolerance.

    Then,
    Miriam English
    November 26, 2015 at 8:04 pm has a say, good on Her? anyhow this a bit of what she? has to say.

    “Intolerance is the enemy of a peaceful society. A peaceful society depends, more than anything else, on trust. Intolerance breeds hate, fear, and distrust. Don’t put up with it.”

    Very true. M E.

    This is exactly what some, here, are preaching also. But others seem to disagree.
    Agreeing at last,
    Mark Needham

40. The AIM NetworkNovember 26, 2015 at 9:20 pm

    Victoria is intolerant of any one else having a say.

    Where did she say that? Or did you just make that up/presume it?

41. mars08November 26, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    Shame on you all for demonising Reclaim straaaya and the UPF for just speaking their minds.

    How dare you insult a small group of loudmouthed, willfully ignorant, frightened, hate-filled, narrow minded, radical, bigoted, publicity seeking, banner waving, flag draped cretins… just because they want to vilify and ostracise anyone and everyone who practices a certain religion the don’t like.

    It’s so unfair!

42. Adam KNovember 26, 2015 at 10:13 pm

    “As you say, some people have different views to you. So do not worry about it. let them go, they are not hurting you, are they!

    So you will accord that same right to Reclaim.

    Shaking head in disbelief,
    Mark Needham”

    The difference is that Reclaim Australia is hurting people. It’s intentionally amplifying social divisions and vocally and explicitly directing hostility toward a specific religious community in Australia. In the last year there have been formed multiple political parties whose driving focus is “Islam is bad” dressed up with empty talk of liberty and freedom.

    The speakers at their rallies make a point of saying they aren’t saying “ALL” Muslims are bad. Then for the rest of their speech they treat Islam as a homogeneous monolithic bloc which they condemn in the strongest terms.

    George Brandis said that people have a right to be bigots. But he also condemned people for using Tony Abbott’s religion to attack him as bigotry. I’ll follow his lead.

    Reclaim Australia has a right to their unwholesome and destructive opinions. I have the right to call them out as the bigots they are.

43. PhilNovember 26, 2015 at 10:15 pm

    It’s amazing that the anti racist and bigot crowd are so bigoted! The derogatory language used to describe your targets is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourselves!

44. MickNovember 26, 2015 at 10:17 pm

    The attitudes expressed are the horrible sticky residue of a bygone era. Skidmarks on the filthy unwashed jocks of this big brown land.

45. mars08November 26, 2015 at 10:24 pm

    Such delicate souls our vocal, ignorant, knuckle dragging buffoons. Playing the victim card, just like they do at their trashy rallies.

46. JeffJLNovember 26, 2015 at 10:45 pm

    Ban the prawns!

47. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 12:21 am

    Mark Needham, I was very surprised to see you agreed with what I said. I was saying that we should not put up with racists, or extremists of any type. We should not tolerate intolerance — the kind of intolerance exhibited by “Reclaim” Australia.

    It further surprised me that you thought that what I wrote could be used to rap Victoria over the knuckles for her piece. She hasn’t been intolerant of any one else having a say. She used gentle humor to show up the flaws in “Reclaim” Australia. Victoria and I have certainly strongly disagreed over some things, but I have the highest respect for her. She has never, to my knowledge, ever forbidden anybody speaking their mind, though I am sure that she would respond with barbs if someone vomited hate all over her. I would actually applaud her in that.

    We should not ever put up with hate speech from racists, religious bigots of any religion, homophobes, sexists, or anybody promoting xenophobia. “Reclaim” Australia uses xenophobia to manipulate people into hating others that they have never met and don’t even know. They use a tiny number of Muslim extremists to drive a wedge into society and split us apart.

    Most Muslims are peaceful people who just want to live good lives and raise their kids in peace. Yes, Islam is a particularly stupid religion, but all religions are stupid. Of the roughly 1,000 major religions in the world, almost all have a history of violence. Christianity, in particular, has a dismal history of insane violence that continues today. And, yes, Islam is especially prone to being used for violent ends, but only a tiny fraction of Muslims want that, and if we alienate the vast bulk of peaceful Muslims then we give shelter to those violent few. We need the great bulk of Muslims to feel relaxed, safe, and happy in secular Australian society so they can disown the dangerous minority.

    Xenophobia only makes the problem worse. It is like attempting to put a candle out by dousing it with petrol. It is a really stupid, counterproductive thing to do.

48. ItsazoosueNovember 27, 2015 at 12:55 am

    “..so I can only assume that you think you have lost Australia, or Australia has been taken from you”

    I would say that they have lost their marbles but I think that jar was always empty. These airheads need to carry around our national flag to remind them what country they’re in. Clearly, they have lost their way.

    It must be an awful burden to carry all that hate around. All for the want of a little worldliness and a few facts and figures. I feel sorry for them despite their misguided mindsets but they should not be allowed to terrorise Muslim Australians. That is patently unAustralian. I hope that our police and security services are monitoring the activities of all extremist groups no matter what religion or nation they claim to represent.

49. John Maycock-November 27, 2015 at 1:29 am

    Words from an Indigenous Australian:

    Jason Jilbarru Darby Cox – This reclaim Australia rally to me and many is about national unity,, it’s not about who was here first,, we many like minded indigenous Australians support reclaim Australia, because we do not want to become slaves to the muslims, those lefties advocating to a minority of noongars in Perth that this is a rally to claim land is ridiculous. This is a rally to reclaim pride, our values and freedoms as a one people, to save our children’s future. One day we will be faced again with the prospect of living in a nation under control by radical Muslims who wish to impose their ways upon our people, this rally is for us to reclaim our self worth, to show strength, solidarity,, the leftist which to invoke the saying that saying this movement reclaim Australia is against indigenous it isn’t, I guarantee and know that we are fighting a battle against a Islamic extremism that threaten a the very existence of our people as well, the more unified our people stand with Australians the stronger the resistance,

50. John MaycockNovember 27, 2015 at 1:31 am

    continued,
    so to my brothers, sisters in Perth if you stand against reclaim Australia you stand for Islamic laws being Instituted against us all.. It’s all about standing United not divided,, as a Yamatji, as a noongar, as a Australian I stand in unity with reclaim Australia, with many also indigenous supporters of reclaim Australia we stand ready to defend our nation in this time of uncertainty of its future,,,.may our ancestors reach from beyond and mother earth protect this country, because we are once again facing a enemy who’s bent on destroying all our way of life customs and beliefs.. This rally will give strength and pride to us all, as we are raised as indigenous a warrior defends his family, upholds the ways of his grandfather’s, and protects the land. His country by any means. He’s one with mother earth,. Reclaiming Australia isn’t taking from us but these are like minded Australians wanting also to protect there homes, families this nation and what it stands for.

51. nurses1968November 27, 2015 at 1:41 am

    RosemaryJ36November 26, 2015 at 12:11 pm

    “The only people entitled to Reclaim Australia would be our first people!”
    Going by the statement above, I guess some are

52. Adrianne HaddowNovember 27, 2015 at 5:53 am

    If you really want to Reclaim Australia, you would be better directing your marching and your lobbying towards the LNP governments, both state and federal who have signed away your rights as workers and consumers in a number of free trade agreements and sales of our major seaports, energy infrastructure and prime farming land to foreign interests.

    I think your right to freedom of speech would be better directed to our economic mis-managers who believe short term profit of a measly few million will replace the future revenue that these assets (paid for with your taxes) would have brought to our country.

    Just as the rise of Nazi Germany needed a scapegoat in the Jewish and Gypsy populations, your scapegoat would appear to be our Muslim population. Do you really want to go in that direction?

    Also if you really want to vilify a religion and a people, at least gain accurate information regarding that religion and its practices.

    @ Miriam English, excellent post re the intolerance of intolerance.

53. corvus boreusNovember 27, 2015 at 5:54 am

    Jason Jilbarru Darby Cox of the Yamatji Noongar people made some very spurious claims in his speech (to a group seeking to ‘defend’ Australia’s ‘Judeo-Christian heritage’), especially the claim that those who oppose that ‘movement’ support Islamic law.

    I am entirely against the imposition of sharia law (even as a distant, theoretical and highly unlikely possibility), as I also stand against any other religious group seeking to impose dictates upon society, or gain exemptions from laws and statutes.

    However, I will not stand in the company of ‘we claim straya’, who are intimately twined with the UPF, a neo-nazi hate group.

54. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 6:41 am

    John Maycock,

    Your post shows exactly why Reclaim Australia are harmful. They have filled people’s heads with the greatest load of bullshit.

    Female genital mutilation is a common cultural practice in some parts of the world, not confined to Muslims. Likewise child brides. In case you hadn’t noticed, these practices are illegal in Australia and anyone found engaging in them will be prosecuted.

    Muslims living in non-Muslim countries are bound to follow the laws of that country. The idea that sharia law is going to be imposed on us all is ridiculous. In Australia, sharia is an option that individuals may choose to follow to a degree – it would be virtually impossible to follow the extreme version of it in our society because it precludes charging interest or fees on money transactions for one thing.

    Glenda,

    Not sure how long it has been since you have been to communion but the priest says prayers over wafers and wine and then we all troop up to collectively engage in some symbolic cannibalism. They then pass around a plate that you are supposed to put money into. The Catholic Church is staggeringly wealthy but they pay no tax. Pretty weird shit eh?

    And I agree that kids at secular schools should not have to sing God-praising songs. Your claim that Christmas carols have been banned is rubbish as has been pointed out. I did hear of one principal that made some odd decisions but that was their call, not some policy imposed on them. I assume they considered their cohort in making it.

    Halal certification is a commercial decision that some firms have made to expand their markets, not some plot to take over the country. All it means is an assurance that the product is free of certain ingredients. Whilst there is some concern about halal slaughter, in the vast majority of cases, the animals are stunned unconscious before slaughter. Manufacturers of food such as Vegemite say that halal certification was such an insignificant cost that it did not affect price. I am not aware if the price of halal meat is more but I know that grain fed beef or free range eggs are more expensive and that it is my choice whether to buy the product or not.

55. John MaycockNovember 27, 2015 at 7:08 am

    How do we know it isn’t already happening here ?.
    Britain has 85 sharia courts: The astonishing spread of the Islamic justice behind closed doors
    The astonishing figure is 17 times higher than previously accepted.
    But the study by academic and Islamic specialist Denis MacEoin estimates there are at least 85 working tribunals.
    Mr MacEoin said: ‘Among the rulings we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as applied by British courts.’
    The report added: ‘The fact that so many sharia rulings in Britain relate to cases concerning divorce and custody of children is of particular concern, as women are not equal in sharia law, and sharia contains no specific commitment to the best interests of the child that is fundamental to family law in the UK.
    ‘Under sharia, a male child belongs to the father after the age of seven, regardless of circumstances

56. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 7:23 am

    Ummmm, how do we know WHAT isn’t already happening here?

    People are prosecuted if they break our laws.

    Four men were convicted for whipping a Muslim convert for drinking alcohol. A man who married a young teen was prosecuted as was the father of the girl. We have family law courts for Australians going through divorce.

    Can you give me any examples of problems in Australia that have not been dealt with by the law? Can you tell me one thing that has changed in your life that you are trying to “reclaim”?

57. John MaycockNovember 27, 2015 at 7:31 am

    only when they get caught
    The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils wants Muslims to be able to marry, divorce and conduct financial transactions under the principles of sharia law.

    In a submission to the Federal Parliament’s Committee on Multicultural Affairs, the Federation has asked for the change.

    It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainstream legislation.

58. John MaycockNovember 27, 2015 at 7:32 am

    just how disgusting it is
    Groom of 12yo ‘child bride’ in NSW jailed for at least seven and a half years
    A man who married a 12-year-old girl in an Islamic ceremony in New South Wales has been jailed for at least seven and a half years.

    The 27-year-old man pleaded guilty to the charge of the persistent sexual abuse of a child after he told police he married the girl in the Hunter Valley in 2014.

    After he was charged an examination at Westmead Children’s Hospital confirmed the girl had an ectopic pregnancy and miscarried.

59. John MaycockNovember 27, 2015 at 7:34 am

    Seems this bloke only follows Sharia Law
    Father of 12-year-old child bride charged, but thinks has ‘done nothing wrong’
    THE father of the 12-year-old girl at the centre of the Islamic marriage scandal appeared before a court yesterday charged with procuring his young daughter for sex.
    The 61-year-old, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, “is of the belief he has done nothing wrong,” Raymond Terrace Local Court was told.
    The court also heard the man had a disregard for NSW laws and believed his daughter was “in love” with her 26-year-old “husband”.

60. oldfartNovember 27, 2015 at 7:41 am

    Glenda,, there already is a Christian tax on prepared food , it’s called the GST, don’t remember any Islamic pollies in parliament when that was pushed through 🙂

61. John MaycockNovember 27, 2015 at 7:51 am

    could this be happening here, you betya

    Islamic State supporters in London caught on camera by undercover reporter
    The footage was filmed as part of a Chanel 4 documentary called ISIS: The British Women Supporters Unveiled and reveals what goes on inside IS meetings in the UK capital for the first time.
    …..leads to admittance to a secretive study group attended by more than 20 women and children where they spew racial hatred and praise the jihadists for their support of the brutal terror group
    The footage was filmed as part of a Chanel 4 documentary called ISIS: The British Women Supporters Unveiled and reveals what goes on inside IS meetings in the UK capital for the first time.
    November 26, 2015

62. Matters NotNovember 27, 2015 at 8:08 am

    John Maycock, I think you’ve been ‘radicalised’. You now have the ‘faith’.

    Watch those shadows. Be ever prepared to jump.

63. Veronica JohnsonNovember 27, 2015 at 8:14 am

    Aren’t we giving ‘power’ to extremist groups by just giving them attention?

64. MarkNovember 27, 2015 at 8:18 am

    How about let them rally and dont listen or give it the time of day. Organised rallies are there to give people a chance to voice their opinions and let the government know what they are not happy about, it also shows how big an issue it is and how much attention the gov should devote to it by the numbers that show up. If the unemployed career uni students,who seem to love protesting protests, actually organised a pro islam rally at the same time of the reclaim rally,but miles away across the city, or on the next day, then the disgraceful scenes with pepper spray having to be used to stop violence being committed against each other would not occur. I believe there is an international agenda of destabilization going on so that a one world government is finally accepted. The governments of the different western countries are to blame. Political correctness and fear of being labelled stops proper conversations on this issue. Look at the Uk, Germany, Sweden , France. They are just further along than we are. In those countries it started with a few muslims and all was good. Once numbers were adequate they than start geting NO GO ZONES (not by order of the gov) where the muslim population start there own sharia law courts and cops wont even go in those zones. In Britain i saw a massive rally by muslims holding up signs british police die, british women are whores etc and how the country doesnt respect or accept their religion. They have a freedom to protest, to practice their religion and have the right to free speech and expression which they would not be entitled to in their COUNTRY! ALL OF EUROPE just got smashed with all the refugees (yes the governments of the west are the cause of refugees by bombing the shit out of the middle east and by being in Syria Illegally, the only legal countries in Syria are Russia and Iran as they were asked by a legitimate government to help )being crammed into their countries and the citizens warned not to complain, media told not to report refugee crime( definately in germany) and then watching your gov financial burden go through the roof as now they are liable to pay welfare, medical etc for the refugees. They are put in camps and apparently there is fighting all the time, houses getting trashed as not up to their standard and going on hunger strikes cause they dont approve of the food. I know its not all muslims who are extreme, radicialised terrorists who wish harm on us so called INFIDELS and you cant tar them all with the same brush. (But its ok to tar all bikies with same brush and impose restrictions on who they see, where they can go, where they can work. Rather be a Muslim than a Bikie in Aust but will any of the reclaim bashers go and fight for the rights of NON CRIMINAL BIKIES)Like i said we are behind where Europe is at the MOMENT, but if the government keeps the same agenda of spreading fear it wont be too long till the same no go zones are established here. If you cant see why ordinary mums and dads are scared and are turning up to reclaim aust rallies then maybe look at the european destabilization. Notice bugger all Arab countries took refugees.The western governments are subservient to the UN (USA) and do as instructed, they have been conspiring since at least 1973/74 when we signed away our sovereignty by agreeing to the Lima declaration. This is planned, this is deliberate and we are being played and divided. Stop saying people are racist (planned division )when islam is not a race, stop saying its ok for free speech but than saying hate speech cant be tolerated ( who sets the definition of whats hate.) Wake up and join together and fight the real enemy of all the people THE GOVERNMENTS. Australia to me is a tolerant and accepting place where people of all backgrounds, cultures, races and religions can just about do what ever your heart desires as long as you dont hurt no one. Not ‘this hurt me’ i am offended shit. So what being offended doesnt cause harm, we teach kids that sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. I might not like or agree with what you say, but i will fight for and defend your right to express it without fear of been persecuted. Alot of people wont express there views on issues like this for Fear of being labelled a RACIST (wrongly). Same thing happens with feminists labelling all males sexist when they dont comply to their way of thinking, or if a man gets a job over a woman its obviously cause he got a dick and not because his qualifications and suitability for the job are better. Its time to stop being censored and to stop making laws to appease the minority of people who think being offended is as bad or worse than being robbed, bashed or killed. I am offended by adults who believe in invisible sky daddies( whatever reLIEgion), even more offended when they kill REAL people because someone drew a picture of their imaginary saviour which they didnt like. But guess what i am ok, i not phyically injured or forced into a mental state of depression nor am i going to harm anyone or put myself in harms way because of my being offended.

65. LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 8:23 am

    John Maycock, marriage and/or sex with children occurs in non-Muslim groups as well.

66. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 8:29 am

    John Maycock, lots of things that are against the law are happening here. Why are you so particularly worked up about those extremely rare illegal things? When found out, they are prosecuted, just as with robberies that the perpetrators attempt to keep quiet.

    I’d be more worried about other things which, astoundingly are legal, but adversely impact far greater numbers of people, such as when giant corporations are allowed to invade your own property and poison your water and air.

    But, of course I know exactly why you are especially worried. You see people who are different as a threat.

    I’m an atheist who has, some years back, lived in a predominantly Muslim area and I have to say that all the Muslim people I met were honest, gentle, and polite and came to Australia to get away from life under an oppressive military/theocratic rule. They wanted a better life for themselves and their children. Sure, there are certain to be some who want the lunacy of Sharia law, but you’ll guarantee that number to increase by isolating all Muslims from secular Australia by making sweeping xenophobic generalisations about Muslims and ramping up hate speech.

    What we need is for the vast bulk of peaceful Muslims who want a largely secular lifestyle to feel comfortable here with a modern, 21st Century tolerant society. If we force them into ghettos where the only contact they have is with each other it will be easy for them to fall into feeling that it is us against them… because it will have been made true by those ranting against Muslims, just as the rantings of racists and anti-Muslim nut-jobs has done in England. If we allow that kind of intolerance here then we can guarantee the rise of Muslims who feel alienated from our society and can be duped into thinking Sharia law might be better.

    All religion is crazy, Islam, especially so. There are genuinely worrying things about Islam, but you won’t make that religion safer by terrorising its adherents and making them feel they are at war with you. Christianity also has genuinely scary aspects, but to a very great extent Christianity’s most poisonous elements have been tamed by secular society. We need to allow this to happen to Islam too.

    I have a saying: You have only won when you have made your enemy your friend.

67. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 9:47 am

    Well done Victoria for drawing out some terrific and disturbing viewpoints.

    Disturbing such as, Jason Jilbarru Darby Cox of the Yamatji Noongar people, claiming to speak for all indigenous people, not just the Noongar folk of Southwest Western Australia, revealing how little kaartdijin he has.

    Although I am sure Jason Jilbarru Darby Cox of the Yamatji Noongar people would understand how Muslim people feel, when a tiny minority of their community are held as representative of all…. maybe not.

    Disturbing for the utter pointlessness are the viewpoints of Mark Needham – who, if he followed his own advice should not be making any comments about, well, anything – lest he be seen as intolerant or something.

    Happy to note the inspiring and terrific viewpoints far outweigh the disturbing – special kudos to Miriam English, who expresses herself so eloquently, unlike ‘Mark November 27, 2015 at 8:18 am’ who was away on the day his teacher discussed paragraphs.

    Thank you to all

68. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 10:14 am

    Mark, it is difficult to address the many, many mistakes in your post, so I’ll limit myself to the ones you got right.

    You’re right that bigots like the “Reclaim” Australia group should be allowed to protest, but they should also be held responsible for hate speech, which is still against the law (I think), as it should be.

    You are partly correct that the Western countries have some culpability for the rise of ISIS (I prefer to give them the more insulting name of Daesh), but it is not entirely the result of Western violence. Where are the Tibetan freedom fighting beheaders and suicide bombers? Why haven’t the original Australians resorted to such atrocities? These people have suffered far worse than the Daesh nutters.

    Australia should be a peaceful, tolerant place where people can mostly do what they want so long as they don’t hurt other people. We have rarely lived up to that ideal, but we do have that as our goal, and we do try. Unfortunately hate does much more than just hurt people’s feelings. Being hated and excluded from society has very real and dangerous consequences, as we are seeing in England, where xenophobia and hatred and suspicion are causing Muslims to withdraw from the otherwise comfortable, secular society there and become radicalised.

    You are right that most bikies are not criminals. The laws targeting them should be struck down as criminal and the corrupt individuals who imposed those laws should serve time in prison for perverting Australian law.

    I am sorry, but everything else you said in your post was an amalgam of misinformation swallowed whole from the dangerous mainstream media (especially the mind-rotting crap from Murdoch). Please, Mark, I know you are a well-meaning person, but you really need to stop reading those horrid newspapers, listening to those awful radio stations, and being corrupted by those terrible TV stations. They will eat your mind away and replace it with angry, delusional drivel. You are not there yet, but you are getting dangerously close.

69. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 10:23 am

    It seems to me that this may be a generational problem where all you oldies just get your info from the tame world wide web and blog sites.
    ISIS and it supporters , yeah even here in Australia have enough sense to go deep web, IRC, ftp to spread their filthy propaganda .
    Dig a little deeper people check out the underground and things like DIE IN YOUR RAGE, has tag, youtube or deep net and see how many followers there are from Australia .
    That might shake you out of your stupor
    Yes, I am a Reclaimer, recruit through my high school and Uni and a concerned teenager

70. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 10:39 am

    So, Katrina, you think that inciting hatred and dividing Australia because of a small number of deluded dickheads is the answer? It seems to me that just pours fuel on the flames. How many Muslims do you know? I knew many who were my neighbors and friends. They were just people. I’m sure some of their kids have been radicalised by hate, just as you have been, Katrina. But someone needs to be smart enough to stop the hate cycle. We have much more pressing problems — climate destabilisation, imposition of feudal rule by corporations via the TPP, a creeping surveillance state, and so on.

    Bear in mind I’m not saying Islam is not a problem. It is. But we don’t fix it by hurting all the Muslims who just want a nice, inoffensive life. That makes it worse.

71. jimhazNovember 27, 2015 at 10:42 am

    If their actions result in increased friction between Muslims and bogans that is not necessarily a bad thing.

    Something has to force those many Muslims who are fools to be less arrogant, to make them assimilate more. As far as I can see the middle eastern muslims here are mostly using Australia as a breeding farm, so called moderate or not.

    All this talk about most being moderate is not actually relevant to anything much – one identifies things primarily by their differences, so it is about percentages. They may be moderate but they are still full of irrationalities. Personally the only (once) Muslim women I have heard who has a clue, who has a fully coherent argument, is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Not once has there been one on QandA – they only talk in rote learnt propaganda terms.

    Reclaim Australia is not just about Muslims – what underlies their vocalised rejection is excessive immigration over the last 20 years. I guess it doesn’t matter though, as already the country has lost it mostly due to excessive immigration. We have been weakened intellectually, materially and socially. The amount of stupidity and goalessness has increased dramatically.

    You people are just anti-conflict by nature. I however see conflict and friction as a necessary mechanism to get to a sustainable paradigm. Reclaim Australia is just commenting about the obvious clash of civilisations and rejecting the war mongering religious civilisation that is backward and regressive – it’s viewpoints are at least 80% those belonging to long past centuries, whereas with the Christian crowd, that drops to about 40%.

72. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 10:42 am

    Tell me, did this meat get Halal certification ?
    Abu Sakkar, commander in the FSA, cut out the heart of a fallen Syrian soldier, and ate it before a cheering crowd of his men shouting “God is Great”
    Do you not remember the video? These same people the USA is calling moderate and giving money and weapons to. If this terror group are the best friends the West can find in Syria, then heaven help us.

73. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 10:44 am

    @Katrina Logan

    Given the range of ages at Reclaim protests from the very young through to many with thinning grey hair, I believe you are incorrect in stating that the Reclaim protest is a generational thing.

    What I would like to understand is if you could explain (without resorting to rhetoric) what it is you want to reclaim Australia from?

    Before answering, please consider that the entire population of Muslims as at 2011 is 2.2% compared to Buddhists at 2.5%, with those claiming to be Christians at a whopping 61.1% – you could be forgiven for wanting to reclaim Australia from Christians 🙂

    http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/2071.0main+features902012-2013

74. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 10:49 am

    Every single comment in favour of Reclaim Australia talks about things happening in other countries. Weird. Is it because, in Australia, those things do NOT happen perchance?

75. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 10:55 am

    jimhaz,

    “I however see conflict and friction as a necessary mechanism to get to a sustainable paradigm.”

    The sustainable paradigm you seek can only be achieved in a tolerant accepting society. Peaceful protest against the victimisation of minorities is showing solidarity. Protest which seeks, through ill-informed misinformation, to spread hatred is NOT sustainable. Hatred breeds hatred, not “assimilation”. You cannot bully people into accepting your ways. They can choose to do so if it suits them better but protesting against the building of places of worship, or dietary and clothing choices, is NOT Australian. It is anti-freedom at its worst.

76. Mark NeedhamNovember 27, 2015 at 11:02 am

    The AIM NetworkNovember 26, 2015 at 9:20 pm

    ” Victoria is intolerant of any one else having a say.” Quoted by Mark Needham
    Where did she say that? Or did you just make that up/presume it?

    Intolerant | Definition of intolerant by Merriam-Webster
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intolerant
    a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters. b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights

    Victoria’s letter is all about intolerance. Defined below. MN.

    tolerance
    ˈtɒl(ə)r(ə)ns/
    noun
    noun: tolerance; plural noun: tolerances
    1. the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with.
    “the tolerance of corruption”

    Victoria says near the end of her Letter…MN.
    “What there really is no place for is racism and bigotry, hate, violence and your scary, angry, unhinged and often armed brand of white-supremacy-extremism.”

    This, is intolerance.

    Victoria, is right in her “theme” regarding Reclaim. But she is intolerant of Reclaim.

    Simple as that.
    Mark Needham

77. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 11:06 am

    jimhaz,

    “force those many Muslims who are fools to be less arrogant”
    Many? Jim, they are a vanishingly small number. Arrogant? You mean like you, wanting to force other people (people you don’t know and have never met) into a way of life?

    As far as I can see the middle eastern muslims here are mostly using Australia as a breeding farm
    It seems you can’t see very far at all, can you, Jim? The many, many Muslims I have met just want a peaceful life for them and their kids. I met many who fled from the religious revolution in Iran. They were Muslim, but didn’t want to live under Sharia law. They preferred a moderate and tolerant place where everything wasn’t about damn religion. They thought they’d found such a place in Australia… and then they hear from bigots like you.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an amazing woman. That’s true. She is a perfect example of why we should give Muslim people a chance to realise what a great place a secular and tolerant society can be. If we just spew hate then we are no better than the Imams who talk about killing infidels, and in fact we give their words power. If we tolerate and befriend Muslims, but don’t tolerate hate speech from any side then we take away that power.

    excessive immigration over the last 20 years. I guess it doesn’t matter though, as already the country has lost it mostly due to excessive immigration. We have been weakened intellectually, materially and socially.
    Oh. I see where you’re coming from, you poor deluded white supremacist. We should return the “White Australia” policy, huh? Maybe you should go to a part of the world where they are more comfortable with that kind of perverted, poisonous thinking. Piss off. We don’t need racists in Australia.

78. Mark NeedhamNovember 27, 2015 at 11:07 am

    Miriam English November 27, 2015 at 12:21 am

    Mark Needham, I was very surprised to see you agreed with what I said.

    Miriam English. What I really meant, is that you agree with what I am trying to say.

    Mark Needham

79. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 11:10 am

    Kaye Lee
    “Is it because, in Australia, those things do NOT happen perchance?”
    Is it possible that you have blinkered vision to the support for ISIS in AUstralia ?
    I gave you places to verify this,just go deeper than just www
    Or join us on our Anonymous war on ISIS
    diannaart
    in generational, I was alluding to the views on sites like this .
    It seems to be all “mature aged” to be polite and yes I campaign strongly on Climate, CSG, Education and other issues important to me .
    Do you think your generation has left a planet and society in as good or better shape than you got it for my generation ?

80. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 11:15 am

    Katrina,

    I take it you can’t think of one single part of your Australian way of life that has changed either. Thanks for underlining my point. When you can tell me what has changed in Australia then I will listen. Telling me scary stories from other parts of the world is pointless.

81. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 11:20 am

    Mark Needham,

    You seem to be missing the point. We should NEVER tolerate hatred and violence, nor should we allow misinformation to be spread without calling out the lies. Tolerance of intolerance is intolerable. People come here because they like our way of life. How they worship, what they eat and what they wear is absolutely irrelevant.

82. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 11:50 am

    Katrina, my generation has screwed up on a lot of things (climate destabilisation being the most glaring example). I and others of my baby-boomer generation will regretfully, but readily admit to that, but we have also left you the most peaceful civilisation in history — one that allows you to make friends anywhere on the planet and communicate with them almost instantly. We have given you Anonymous, who are doing wonderful things to non-violently fight obscenities like the KKK and Daesh (ISIS). You will experience less illness, and have a longer lifespan, and be less likely to die violently than any other generation in human history. Unfortunately you will also be more prone to obesity and diabetes, but we are attempting to fix that mistake too. You have access to more information than all the earlier kings and queens, thanks to my generation. We are finally beginning to win against the giant fossil fuel corporations that my parents’ and grandparents’ generations gave us (along with cheap energy and all the cool stuff that enabled). My generation has been responsible for development (and, sadly, suppression) of solar power, and its resurgence to become, in concert with wind energy, the death-knell of the coal industry (about bloody time!).

    Please continue the process of making the world a better place to live in by avoiding blind hate of minorities. Help them to overcome their dopey bronze-age religions and be welcomed into a hopeful future.

    Hate hatred and don’t tolerate intolerance.

    All the best for the future. I hope you leave the world in an even better state for your children. I expect you will. So many of your generation are amazing.

83. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 11:56 am

    Mark Needham
    What I really meant, is that you agree with what I am trying to say.
    No, I truly do not.

84. Michael TaylorNovember 27, 2015 at 11:59 am

    Miriam, Mark Needham only likes to think people might agree with him. It’s a delusion.

85. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 12:08 pm

    Mark Needham, I went back and read through all your comments to ensure I wasn’t making a mistake, and it turns out I was attributing to you a more extreme view than you actually have, so please accept my apology. You are simply saying “Reclaim” Australia should have the right to protest. I agree. Where we may differ is that I don’t think they have any right to hate speech.

    Of course if “Reclaim” Australia were allowed to protest, but not allowed to spew hatred their rallies would be very different and quite inoffensive because they would consist of little more than people standing around looking at each other, because what binds those in the “Reclaim” Australia “cause” together seems to be just hate.

86. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 12:14 pm

    For those who think refugees are a burden on our society you are very wrong. And the fact that some of them have more children than the average Australian is a good thing for our economy. I recommend reading the following report for those who are interested. Each section is summarised at the end by conclusions which show the valuable contribution that humanitarian migrants make to our society and the connection they feel to our country.

    http://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/research/economic-social-civic-contributions-booklet2011.pdf#search=Hugo,%20G.%20(2011)%20Economic,%20social%20and%20civic%20contributions%20of%20first%20and%20second%20generation%20humanitarian%20entrants

87. Matters NotNovember 27, 2015 at 12:32 pm

    Two articles relevant to the topic:

    The question shouldn’t be whether Muslims or Jews integrate, it’s whether people of different religions, races and ethnicity are allowed to become “Australian”.

    Australians like to think of themselves as egalitarian and the land of the fair go, but this is more fantasy than reality. The reality is that people who are different – look different, dress different, speak different and practice different religious rites and customs – are constantly being reminded of their otherness.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-27/tatz-anti-muslim-sentiment-familiar-for-jews/6969356

    And those who took us there.

    Look, if the former treasurer really wants to ask some tough questions, I’ve got a few.

    Why did the government of which he was part carry us into a war in Iraq on a false premise?

    Why haven’t any of you taken responsibility for that act, an act most serious commentators consider the worst foreign policy blunder of the modern era, and an act that was a huge contributing factor to rise of Daesh itself?

    Why hasn’t anyone in the Murdoch press – publishers of Mr Costello’s latest postcard from the wedge – begged pardon for their part in propagating that false premise?

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-27/dunlop-the-hypocrisy-behind-costello's-questions/6979278

88. mars08November 27, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    Wow… Do those idiots seriously think that Muslims are plotting to take over Australia? Or is it that they REALLY WANT TO BELIEVE it because it justifies their mindless hatred and bigotry?

89. silkwormNovember 27, 2015 at 1:34 pm

    A prominent Reclaim Australia member was recently arrested for possession of weapons, chiefly tasers.

    “Police found weapons in the home of a vocal anti-Islamist who claims to be a member of the Reclaim Australia Party, leading to his arrest days before a major rally.

    Detectives from the arson and explosives squad seized Tasers and other weapons from the Braybrook home of 31-year-old Phillip Galea.”

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/30144973/prominent-reclaim-australia-member-arrested-after-police-seize-weapons/

    I don’t think Mr Galea was targeting Muslims with the tasers. I think he was planning to hand them out at last week’s rally to fellow Reclaimers so they could use them against members of the opposing group of anti-Reclaimers.

90. RoswellNovember 27, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    I think you’re right, Mars. They want to believe.

91. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 1:55 pm

    Army chaplains to remove ‘conquer’ from 102-year-old motto because it is offensive to Muslims
    The move comes after an imam approved by the Grand Mufti was appointed to join the ­Religious Advisory Committee to the Services in June
    The army imam, Sheik Mohamadu Nawas Saleem, has previously called for sharia law to be introduced into Australia. He signed a petition supporting radical Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir, which has argued in favour of honour killings and said Muslim students should not be forced to honour Anzac Day.

    http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/army-chaplains-to-remove-conquer-from-102-year-old-motto-because-it-is-offensive-to-muslims/story-fni0cx4q-1227617586616

92. mars08November 27, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    Curse those cowardly Australian Army chaplains! Which side are they on??!!??!??

93. Adam KNovember 27, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    John MaycockNovember 27, 2015 at 7:08 am
    “How do we know it isn’t already happening here ?.
    Britain has 85 sharia courts: The astonishing spread of the Islamic justice behind closed doors
    The astonishing figure is 17 times higher than previously accepted.
    But the study by academic and Islamic specialist Denis MacEoin estimates there are at least 85 working tribunals.
    Mr MacEoin said: ‘Among the rulings we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as applied by British courts.’
    The report added: ‘The fact that so many sharia rulings in Britain relate to cases concerning divorce and custody of children is of particular concern, as women are not equal in sharia law, and sharia contains no specific commitment to the best interests of the child that is fundamental to family law in the UK.
    ‘Under sharia, a male child belongs to the father after the age of seven, regardless of circumstances”

    Those Sharia tribunals are like the Jewish religious ones which have existed for quite awhile themselves. They only have influence over issues that people are already able to negotiate over anyway – like divorce and custodial arrangements, inheritances and business dealings. Their decisions only impact people who have entered the process willingly and cannot break common law of the land.

    Certainly some of their decisions have come down on the wrong side of the law, but then the participants are fully empowered to use the rest of the law to remedy the situation.

    I remember the hysterical coverage a few years ago when they became a thing. I also remember when it was pointed out that a) they were already perfectly legal and required no new legislation and b) other minority groups already utilize such organizations when they choose to.

    In the Australian context, Aboriginal traditional justice can be, and sometimes is, doled out by our legal systems when arbitrated over indigenous communities.

94. Adam KNovember 27, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 1:55 pm

    “In this sign conquer” above a Christian cross.

    I wonder why the Army might not want that flashing around on their chaplains’ hats?

    Maybe because we don’t really need to give more of ammunition to Daesh while they peddle their garbage that they’re fighting a holy war to defend Islam.

95. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    Is that you Waleed Aly (Adam K)?

96. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    Katrina, there’s your main mistake: “Daily Telegraph” Why ever would you believe any of the lies and distortions from the pages of that rag? Its reason for existing is to incite hate and cause knee-jerk right-wing reactions. You fell right in.

97. mars08November 27, 2015 at 2:29 pm

    @Adam K…… ah… well… I think you might be missing the point. Katrina Logan and her willfully ignorant mates actually … want to give more ammunition to their bigoted crew, while they peddle their garbage that they’re fighting a holy war to defeat Islam.

98. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 2:31 pm

    Still waiting to know what exactly Katrina Logan wants to reclaim, so far Army Chaplains removing aggressive Christian militancy from motto is respectful of many people – the 40+% of Australians, who are not Christian and is a positive step towards acceptance of all people.

    Katrina, do you only want white Anglo-saxon Christian views to dominate all Australia? Speaking as a white Scottish/Irish/Jewish atheist…

99. AnomanderNovember 27, 2015 at 2:34 pm

    Good article. I can’t believe these blokes who stand-up and beat their chest are so fearful of people who comprise around 2% of the population.

    And as for Hahal food – why aren’t the up in arms about Kosher food, which is exactly the same thing?

    And this supposed fear of Muslims being able to impose Sharia law – how are 2% of the people ever going to be able to amass sufficient influence to change our constitution and replace our legal system? Seriously delusional.

    Reclaim are nothing but a bunch of scared, wussy little babies who need to grow up and realise the world doesn’t revolve around them.

100. jimhazNovember 27, 2015 at 2:45 pm

     @ Kaye

     [For those who think refugees are a burden on our society you are very wrong]

     Note the large unemployment rate of those whose Proficiency in English ranks as Not well (20%) or not at all (31%)

     i scanned through the doc, but didn’t find any relevant evidence. To me it is propaganda. Though it doesn’t matter as I am anti-volume-growth in any case.

101. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 3:23 pm

     @diannaart – Actually, no. We really don’t need to be accepting of all people. Religion, unlike race, is one’s choice to make, and is therefore open to question and ridicule. And deservedly so.

102. jimhazNovember 27, 2015 at 3:33 pm

     [Many? Jim, they are a vanishingly small number. Arrogant? You mean like you, wanting to force other people (people you don’t know and have never met) into a way of life?]

     Yep, there is no doubt that I do want those already here to change so that they fit better into the modern way of life. Both us and them will be better off – in fact the “them” practically disappears when it does occur.

     [It seems you can’t see very far at all, can you, Jim? The many, many Muslims I have met just want a peaceful life for them and their kids. I met many who fled from the religious revolution in Iran. They were Muslim, but didn’t want to live under Sharia law. They preferred a moderate and tolerant place where everything wasn’t about damn religion. They thought they’d found such a place in Australia… and then they hear from bigots like you]

     I recall a program a half dozen years ago where some Iranian young were rebelling against the religious dictatorship – because they wanted to westernise. The world would be better off if their rebellious spirit was exercised in their own country. Progressive change that lasts must come from within.

     [If we tolerate and befriend Muslims, but don’t tolerate hate speech from any side then we take away that power]

     It is from working with them and sometimes observing them, that I have become convinced (as a generalised comment) that they do not add value, but take away value. To me they are ineffectual due to cultural hangovers and the religion itself. It is not a problem I notice with the Asian folk I work with.

     If you expect me to ignore empirical evidence that indicates a high probability of a result of social degradation well I 100% refuse. I’ve come to the mindset that our large percentage of boganists is a result of excessive immigration that takes away jobs and funding that could minimise this problem.

     Pretty much everyone here engages in or “tolerates hate speech” against conservatives. It just happens that I agree with that intolerance.

     Me: [excessive immigration over the last 20 years. I guess it doesn’t matter though, as already the country has lost it mostly due to excessive immigration. We have been weakened intellectually, materially and socially]

     Miriam: [Oh. I see where you’re coming from, you poor deluded white supremacist. We should return the “White Australia” policy, huh? Maybe you should go to a part of the world where they are more comfortable with that kind of perverted, poisonous thinking. Piss off. We don’t need racists in Australia]

     White supremacist assumes a genetic element. That assumption does not have to be the case. It is more a matter of the cultural progression over the last millennium by “whites” as the dominant wealth group. A progression that seems to be taking a step backwards due to the divide and conquer effect that excessive immigration results in. Excessive immigration is an unchecked capitalism problem. To me you folks whose egos gain satisfaction from helping others are helping the 1% control us all via cheap obedient non-unionised labour.

     [Maybe you should go to a part of the world where they are more comfortable with that kind of perverted, poisonous thinking]

     Yeah, I could go to a muslim country.

103. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 3:42 pm

     I wonder if Katrina was similarly outraged when women decided to drop “obey” from marriage vows.

     Does she believe we should be conquering in the name of the cross and forcing everyone to obey our religious, dietary and clothing preferences?

     I object to them saying the Lords Prayer in our secular parliament but my wishes have, to date, been overruled. I object to paying hundreds of millions for religious school chaplains while denying the choice to have trained youth counsellors instead.

     There are a lot of silly archaic things that need modernising.

104. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 3:45 pm

     “i scanned through the doc, but didn’t find any relevant evidence. To me it is propaganda. Though it doesn’t matter as I am anti-volume-growth in any case.”

     The link I gave was to the summary of the report’s findings. If you really want to wade through all the data I am sure you could access the full report.

     As for anti-growth, our aging population needs an influx of young workers to keep the economy afloat. Lots of Australian couples are opting to have no kids.

105. Adrianne HaddowNovember 27, 2015 at 3:49 pm

     @Katerina.

     May I suggest you use the web ( lite or dark, your choice) to look at the range of propaganda techniques used by media groups and in the advertising industry.

     You are a bright girl ( you’re going to Uni next year, I gather) then you should be able to form a critical framework with which to read those sites and articles that you quote.

     You may be interested to compare the Daily Telegraph and some of the websites you visit to see how the views of those and the manner of expression in their writing fits with propaganda techniques and manipulates the reader to respond with fear, anger and hatred.

     Please refrain from quoting Murdoch hacks as a source of truth.

106. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 3:55 pm

     “There are a lot of silly archaic things that need modernising.”

     Couldn’t agree more. Let’s start with some 7th century silly archaic things shall we…

107. jimhazNovember 27, 2015 at 4:01 pm

     [Do those idiots seriously think that Muslims are plotting to take over Australia?]

     A love of one’s culture is natural for everyone who migrates. We are creatures of habit and culture is just habit. So yep, they would have preference that we were all muslim and will promote that in whatever way they can. Sharia law is just an expression of this, a tool to be used and promoted by the religious or testosterone pumped men who love to dominate others. No different the Christian parasites of the same mold (like Pell, Abbott, Bernardi etc) whom we are slowly disassociating from.

     But no, they will never be the dominant group in Australia. As the religion is quite imperialistic unless they are caused to modernise, civil war would result when they hit a higher population percentage and we would shut them down. I would expect them to modernise – the materialistic lure is too strong, however they would modernise with a lot less stress for all concerned if we cut immigration in half overall.

     It is not a takeover I fear, but an unnecessary anchor on our progression. One of the problems here is that all politicians are opportunists who will sell us out all the time saying everything is hunky dory.

108. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 4:02 pm

     Like what Michael B?

109. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 4:10 pm

     jimhaz,

     “they would have preference that we were all muslim and will promote that in whatever way they can” just like the dominant religion, Catholicism does. I asked our local priest to christen my children for the sake of their very religious grandparents. I naively assumed he would welcome my children into the house of the Lord in some silly ceremony involving water, How wrong I was. He refused to do it unless I made all sorts of promises about my babies’ future lives so I went to the Anglicans – same deal – but luckily my unbaptised children will not now have to reside in limbo forever because the Catholics dumped it. I believe they are still hanging onto purgatory but you can shorten your sentence by chanting some phrases while holding some beads.

     I find all religions an anchor on our progression. If other people choose to worship some imaginary friend so be it. What they choose to do is of no interest to me unless they think they can make laws based on their religion like many Christian conservatives have done and continue to try to do.

110. jimhazNovember 27, 2015 at 4:13 pm

     [As for anti-growth, our aging population needs an influx of young workers to keep the economy afloat]

     This is primarily a lie by the capitalists. There is a bit of truth to it, but it been considerably exaggerated. To me it is being used more as propaganda to keep wages lower at the low-middle wage ranks.

     All the same, the higher our deficit is, the more it becomes true.

     It is also being used to lower taxes for the wealthy – with lower immigration we’d have to tax them at the appropriate levels we had in the 80’s – ie high enough for them to be less capable of usurping democracy.

111. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 4:15 pm

     @Michael B

     If you have been reading my comments here, you would know that I am an atheist – this means I don’t believe in any religions – however, I accept the right of other people to believe – I know far too many religious people who are decent, respectful and tolerant, I see no reason to reject them because they believe in Jesus or Buddha or Vishnu – in fact my life would be far less interesting if I did reject other people for simply being different to me.

     I do object to ANY religion such as Christianity insisting on chaplains in schools or voting rights on women’s fertility or protecting pedophile priests or involving themselves in politics.

     That is the point many here are trying to make; we don’t simply reject, denigrate or alienate people because of skin colour, religion or gender – what matters is whether people are seeking to live in peace with each other.

112. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 4:18 pm

     Kaye Lee: “What they choose to do is of no interest to me unless they think they can make laws based on their religion”

     Well I doubt you would find any Reclaim Australia supporters who disagree with that 🙂

113. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 4:21 pm

     diannaart: “I do object to ANY religion such as Christianity insisting on chaplains in schools or voting rights on women’s fertility or protecting pedophile priests or involving themselves in politics.

     That is the point many here are trying to make; we don’t simply reject, denigrate or alienate people because of skin colour, religion or gender – what matters is whether people are seeking to live in peace with each other.”

     @diannaart

     And I do object to ANY religion such as Islam insisting on removing pork from menus in schools.

     That is the point many here are trying to make; we don’t simply reject, denigrate or alienate people because of skin colour, religion or gender – what matters is whether people are seeking to live in peace with each other (and with pork).

114. jimhazNovember 27, 2015 at 4:22 pm

     [I find all religions an anchor on our progression]

     Yep.

     Anyway time for me to go.

     Commenting on this issue makes it become of more personal importance than it really is. Time (as in 2nd or 3rd generations) tends to cure these cultural frictions as more change to the mean. What bugs me about this immigration group is that it feels different due to the middle eastern and african Muslim imperialism problems that are unlikely to go away as a negative influence on progression for decades.

115. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 4:43 pm

     “What they choose to do is of no interest to me unless they think they can make laws based on their religion…I doubt you would find any Reclaim Australia supporters who disagree with that :)”

     Then I assume you are against what conservative governments have done and continue to do. They think they have the right to make laws prohibiting marriage equality. There are many who still think they have the right to legislate about abortion. I have already mentioned the religious school chaplains and forcing parliament to say the Lords Prayer.

     The Catholic Church in Australia reputedly owns $100 billion worth of properties and other assets; and makes $15 billion a year from its education, health and welfare businesses. All of its investment earnings are tax-free; it pays no rates on its properties, nor land tax, and there is no capital gains tax on the sale of its assets.

     Business enterprises run by religious groups range from pizza chains, insurance companies, wineries, farms, schools, hospitals and aged-care facilities. All are exempt from tax. Australia is one of the few countries in the world where religious groups are not forced to pay tax on business ventures.

     If you think that laws here aren’t based on religion you are wrong. Just have a look at how much is forked out for children to attend religious schools and to be transported out of area to do so at our expense.

     PS Having been involved with several school canteens I cannot think of one where pork was on the menu and as far as I know, ham sandwiches are still available

116. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 4:54 pm

     “Time (as in 2nd or 3rd generations) tends to cure these cultural frictions as more change to the mean.”

     And that is the point (though the word ‘mean’ is inappropriate imo). If you moved to an entirely different culture where you didn’t know the language it would take you a while to find your place but your children would do it far quicker.

117. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 4:56 pm

     Which schools, where?

118. corvus boreusNovember 27, 2015 at 4:58 pm

     Katrina Logan,
     As an active ‘reclaimer’, are you happy with some of the close associations of your organisation? I am not.
     I refer to ‘Rise Up Australia’ and, especially, the ‘United Patriots Front’, both of whom are significant participants.
     One represents religious politics to the right of ‘Family First’, and the other is a bunch of crypto=fascist thugs.
     Danny Nalliah of ‘strayan uprising’ is a hardline biblical literalist who reckons his god punished Kevin Rudd with floods and Victorian abortion laws with bushfires, and encourages his followers to pray for the destruction of the temples (et al) of all other faiths.
     Blair Cottrell of the ‘patriot’ front openly hero-worships Hitler and advocates utilising terror tactics in both politics and domestic relationships.
     http://www.smh.com.au/national/blair-cottrell-leader-of-aussie-patriots-upf-wanted-hitler-in-the-classroom-20151016-gkbbvz.html
     Both have repeatedly featured as sanctioned speakers at ‘Reclaim Australia’ rallies.
     If such folk speak for the vision of our country you would see enacted, then your societal goals and mine drastically differ.
     I need not stand with a bunch of uber-nationalists in flag-capes, evangelical religious lobbyists and neo-nazi goons in order to oppose any demands made by salafist bigots (or any other god-nuts) over secular society, or despise the atrocities of vicious scum like the daesh.

119. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 5:04 pm

     I need not stand with a bunch of uber-nationalists in flag-capes, evangelical religious lobbyists and neo-nazi goons in order to oppose any demands made by salafist bigots over secular society, or despise the atrocities of vicious scum like the daesh.

     Hear! Hear!

     I can stand up to totalitarianism whatever face it uses.

120. KyranNovember 27, 2015 at 5:20 pm

     Dear Ms Rollison
     You’re article seems to suggest that there are a pack of people ‘over here’ living in fear of a pack of gutless degenerate’s ‘over there’. The gutless one’s ‘over there’, whilst sponsored by government’s and corporation’s from ‘over here’, are so cowardly, they chose to bastardise a book of religion to justify their cowardice. Most of the Muslim’s, world wide, have called that for what it is. As I am old enough to remember when the IRA, Red Brigade and PLO trained in the same place in Libya, decades ago, terrorism is not new to me. There was Al Qaeda before this pack of clown’s, and there will be one after this pack of clown’s. Most likely sponsored by government’s and corporation’s ‘over here’.
     Waleed Ali nailed it.
     My concern for education, health, the environment, social welfare, justice (including those poor souls we incarcerate off shore) far exceeds my concern for paranoia. Our current government can’t pass a budget, and you think I should worry about ‘we claim Straylya’?.
     As an aside, Guatemala has just raised the legal age of marriage from 14 to 18. Over 60% of it’s population is ‘Christian’.
     Apparently, facts and ideology should not be mixed.
     Thank you, take care

121. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 5:25 pm

     @Kaye Lee

     “Then I assume you are against what conservative governments have done and continue to do. They think they have the right to make laws prohibiting marriage equality. There are many who still think they have the right to legislate about abortion. I have already mentioned the religious school chaplains and forcing parliament to say the Lords Prayer.”

     Definitely. I believe the government should have no business being involved in marriage and abortion, and prayers. I tend to cringe a little when I hear the American president say “God bless America”. If there were a such thing as a man up in the clouds looking down on everyone (something else that’s cringeworthy), why should America be singled out? Wouldn’t they automatically be blessed? Or why should they have their own separate blessing? All seems rather silly to me in the 21st century.

     But if you haven’t yet worked it out, that’s what I’m getting at. I don’t care who you are or what you believe, as long as you keep it behind closed doors, don’t harm anyone, and don’t try to push your beliefs onto others or the government.

     And that’s what I believe most people want, even if some are running around wearing the Australian flag. Yes there are extremes on both sides who do little to no justice for their cause, but ultimately, whichever side of the fence you sit on, people generally just want to lead a bullshit-free life and enjoy it while they’re alive without the government trying to interfere in every aspect of it.

     Just like you (plural) claim not all Muslims should be represented by the loud obnoxious ones, the same should apply to Reclaim Australia supporters.

     If you just took a little step back, and tried to understand others’ points of view, you’ll probably find you have more in common than you realise, or care to admit.

122. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 5:33 pm

     Just like you (plural) claim not all Muslims should be represented by the loud obnoxious ones, the same should apply to Reclaim Australia supporters.

     Michael B

     No one, thus far have had much success in determining just what needs ‘reclaiming’ – Katrina seems to think it is Christian mottoes, so far all you are concerned about is your ability to put some pork on your fork, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what has been taken and by whom, this way we may understand what these ‘reclaimers’ are on about.

     So far, given the groups associated with ‘reclaimers’ I would think they are a part of a white supremacy political push.

123. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 5:38 pm

     That does get asked a fair bit on their Facebook page, and the usual answers are to reclaim common sense, and to reclaim the way of life before political correctness came along.

     Makes sense to me. If it doesn’t to you, then there’s probably not much point asking again.

124. GwayNovember 27, 2015 at 5:39 pm

     but the UK Royal Family do own Australia, or more precisely, the Crown Corporation of London owns Australia, via it’s fully owned franchise, the Orstralian Crown. Every property title issued on these lands since 1788 has been by Crown Grant. The titles themselves do not represent ownership, only a “bundle of rights” applying to a certain piece of the land, Freehold Title offering more Rights than other forms of Title.
     Sorry, I couldn’t get passed the 2nd paragraph. .

125. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 5:41 pm

     I have nothing in common with people who protest against mosques being built or halal certification of food. I do not understand people who campaign about things we already have laws against like FGM, child sex, whipping etc. There are isolated incidents of these practices in Australia but, as we see every day, violence against women and children is not exclusive to any demographic.

     I am STILL waiting for an answer about what you are trying to reclaim. How has YOUR life changed?

     “I don’t care who you are or what you believe, as long as you keep it behind closed doors, don’t harm anyone, and don’t try to push your beliefs onto others or the government.”

     So why protest against the building of a mosque? Why protest against food certification where consumers have the choice of what they buy? Why protest against accepting Muslim immigrants? Why not protest against the religions that ARE affecting government policy?

126. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 5:43 pm

     Alienating, denigrating other people for being different is ‘common sense’?

     Riiiight… stepping away now and then running like mad from yet another who cannot give an example of what has been taken from Australia.

127. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 5:45 pm

     “reclaim the way of life before political correctness came along”

     Oh….so you want to make racist jokes and say denigrating things to women without anyone being “offended”? Or has there been some other change to your way of life caused by asking you to consider other people’s feelings?

128. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 5:48 pm

     Kaye Lee

     I do believe you have revealed the awful truth – these ‘reclaimers’ just want to have their bigotry enshrined as a right.

     Why do they not just come out like Brandis and say it?

129. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 5:50 pm

     @diannaart

     Because you’re being ignorant and pathetic, that’s why. You ask the question, but have already assumed the answer and refuse to accept anything else.

     Anyone who is deliberately trying to alienate someone for being different is not a stance most people take, regardless of what your ignorant mind chooses to believe.

130. corvus boreusNovember 27, 2015 at 5:52 pm

     Michael B.
     So you stand for broad slogans and the right to sledge.
     Oi, Oi, Oi!

131. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 5:53 pm

     @Kaye Lee

     “Oh….so you want to make racist jokes and say denigrating things to women without anyone being “offended”? Or has there been some other change to your way of life caused by asking you to consider other people’s feelings?”

     Err, they’re your words, not mine.

     But actually, I believe everyone definitely has the right to be offended.

132. diannaartNovember 27, 2015 at 5:53 pm

     I’m not trying to reclaim bigotry, Michael nor am I using personal insults against you or other ‘reclaimers’ – I have asked a question raised by many others here:

     What have you lost that needs reclaiming?

133. mars08November 27, 2015 at 6:04 pm

     “It is not a takeover I fear, but an unnecessary anchor on our progression. One of the problems here is that all politicians are opportunists… “

     Yeh… I know. Those knuckle dragging UPF clowns are a drag, right?

134. Matters NotNovember 27, 2015 at 6:11 pm

     believe everyone definitely has the right to be offended

     the right to be offended. Hilarious. Didn’t know that ‘right’ was ever under attack.

     I though it was all about whether one had the right to be offensive.

     There’s just no predicting the meaning(s) given to words.

135. Michael BNovember 27, 2015 at 6:24 pm

     “Didn’t know that ‘right’ was ever under attack.”

     Likewise.

     “I though it was all about whether one had the right to be offensive.”

     Says who?

136. MickNovember 27, 2015 at 6:29 pm

     So UPF and RA represent common sense? How does chanting “NO MORE MOSQUES!” represent common sense? How does suggesting we should have pictures of Hitler hung in every school represent common sense?

137. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 6:47 pm

     What I have gleaned so far is that Reclaim Australia is fighting for “common sense” and against “political correctness”. Ok, but what has that got to do with Muslims and why do you want everyone to have guns?

     Katrina (and she is not alone apparently) is very scared about things that happen in other countries. Me too, but she has failed to show any relevance to Australia.

     Our society is under threat from greed, intolerance, and climate change.

138. corvus boreusNovember 27, 2015 at 6:48 pm

     Mick,
     Apparently, by the strength of their influence upon RA, ‘Rise Up Australia’ (‘Catch the Fire ministries’ gone political) also represents “common sense”, albeit in a literal creationist, ‘natural cataclysm = divine wrath’ kind of ‘sense’.

139. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 6:53 pm

     Michael B, I’m sure you genuinely feel that the people in “Reclaim” Australia honestly want a return to simple common sense. The trouble is the term “common sense” is quite chameleon-like, in that it changes its meaning according to who speaks it. One person might think it is obviously common sense to avoid giving kids sex education. Another person might think it is common sense for child brides to be able to marry men of any age. Yet another might think that vaccines are a bad thing. And another might think it’s obvious that only wealthy people deserve any of the benefits society has to offer. Another might think it is common sense that prayer works. None of these are terribly unusual views of “common sense” (well, the child-bride one is not common in Australia), but all these “common sense” ideas are utterly wrong — provably wrong.

     My idea of common sense would probably not align with yours or most other people’s. (Free medical care for all; free access to all knowledge for all; legally guaranteed privacy for individuals; absolutely no privacy for organisations; religious organisations should pay tax; no drug should be outlawed, but full, undistorted information about drug effects should be available to all; a living wage should be available to all, eliminating the dole, pensions, etc; we should be able to protest freely about anything, but have absolutely no right to hate speech, the internet should be free and available to all as a right… that’s a taste of what I think is common sense.)

     So… we have heard some of the public claims of “Reclaim” Australia that have to do with xenophobia and irrational hatred of others. I, and I’m sure others here would be very happy to learn that is not what the movement is really about. If that’s the case, please do tell us what they actually want.

140. Mark NeedhamNovember 27, 2015 at 6:57 pm

     Thanks Miriam English. A mute point, that I was trying to say.
     One of the very great problems, on these sites, is to not say something that can be misconstrued into 10 different points. I have often bounced, on a written statement, and been up the wrong path.
     We need to be able to ”print” verbal, facial and body nuances, to what we write.
     The conversations, if they can be kept objective, ( without smart a#$e, comments, Yes, I often have to bite back)) are most times enlightening. I spend far too much time on this damn computer, and helpful links provided help shorten that time.
     Cheers,
     Mark Needham

141. Kaye LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 6:59 pm

     I find Rise Up Australia very confusing. Number 3 of their 27 policy principles is

     “To promote harmony, freedom and tolerance among Australians; specifically we oppose multiculturalism”

     Can anyone explain what that means?

142. MickNovember 27, 2015 at 7:32 pm

     What that means, is that they are unable to admit to themselves in the privacy of their own hearts, that they suffer from distressing levels of hatred, probably due to traumas they have suffered at some time in their lives at the hands of people they probably trusted.

     It is possible that some of these people suffered the loss of loved ones in the conflicts that Australia has been involved in. My father disliked Muslims because he was involved in the Malay Insurgency. When you are trained to kill a certain group of people, you tend to overlook idiosyncracies in favour of generalities. Yet that same father rebuked me for of comments I mad when I was young that, if left unchecked may have led me down racist paths.

     Considering their devotion to what I consider to be a skewed sense of loyalty, they probably also have had loved ones who had these views that they couldn’t challenge without bringing wrath or ostracisation.

     But ultimately, what it all means, is that people don’t make sense, let alone there being some kind of universal common variety of it.
     If only logic could be applied, and fallacies exposed to prove to them what they are saying is causing the threat they fear the most. Unfortunately, without heartfelt, private, shoulder-to-shoulder conversations one on one with each person espousing these hatreds, they will put the wagons in a circle.

143. corvus boreusNovember 27, 2015 at 7:38 pm

     Kaye Lee,
     Allow me to translate.
     ‘Harmony’ means a bellowed chorus from a single hymn sheet.
     ‘Freedom’ means Mel Gibson, face painted blue, drunk and swinging a compensatory oversized sword.
     ‘Tolerance’ means the granting of the mercy to continue to be, upon total acceptance of strictly defined terms.
     All entirely incompatable with the multicultural ideal.

144. MickNovember 27, 2015 at 7:38 pm

     Just to clear up this muddy section…

     If only logic could be applied, and fallacies exposed to prove to them what they are saying, and doing, is causing the threat they fear the most to manifest. It is classic self-fulfilling prophecy.

145. mars08November 27, 2015 at 7:46 pm

     … the usual answers are to reclaim common sense, and to reclaim the way of life before political correctness came along.

     Oh what? Is that it? They’re not answers… they’re barely bogan slogans!

     All purpose chauvinist, vague, facile rubbish for mindless bigots…

146. MickNovember 27, 2015 at 7:46 pm

     covus boreus

     two quotes that sum up the attitude from ordinary Australians I have met in my time.

     “We don’t mind them, [aboriginal people] so long as they act like white people.”

     “I don’t mind them coming here so long as they don’t bring their culture.”

     If only the Eora people had a Tony Abbot figure amongst them promoting a turn back the boats policy when the first fleet arrived.

147. Miriam EnglishNovember 27, 2015 at 7:52 pm

     Funny you should ask, Kaye. I was just looking on one of the “Reclaim” Australia websites.
     http://www.reclaim-australia.com/reclaim-what-.html

     They have a list of 24 things they want to reclaim. Some of the points are excellent, such as equality of gender and separation of church and state (though I suspect that’s code for separation of churches other than Christian ones from the state), but a number of the points are troubling.

     They talk about not wanting to be bound by political correctness. I have to admit I find political correctness a bit inconvenient and suffocating at times, sometimes even hilarious, but I have to acknowledge that the intent of PC is to put a brake on racist and jingoist behavior, which can be genuinely damaging and not particularly funny at all.

     One point which really got up my nose was to consider our flag as sacred, and disrespecting it punishable by law. But it’s a goddamn silly swatch of material, for heaven’s sake! It’s just a symbol. A symbol is not the thing it represents. They are making the common human error of mistaking a symbol for what it represents.

     There’s also a rather authoritarian desire to bow to people in uniform. That’s regressive and worrying. I thought modern, 21st Century people would be a bit beyond that.

     There are many other points, some troubling, some not, but the backbone behind it all seems to be a fear of Islam.

     I’m beginning to wonder if “Reclaim” Australia is a distraction. Politicians and corporations are saying, “Look! Be scared of these weird Muslim people while we gently relieve you of all this heavy money and these privileges you don’t really need.”

148. MickNovember 27, 2015 at 7:53 pm

     The other ridiculous thing about all of this is that Islam has been in this country since the camel driver days if not before. We have had a multi-cultural society so long it shouldn’t be an issue. What’s even more ridiculous, is that the biggest religious conflict we had in this country was between Catholics and Anglicans.

     That is, aside form the super heavyweight champion of them all, the conflict between Christians and Indigenous religions.

     No doubt these RA folks aren’t fighting for an earth based spirituality, though.

149. MickNovember 27, 2015 at 8:04 pm

     I’m sure whoever has written out their manifesto has tried as hard as they could to squeeze their views into some form that is palatable enough to swallow, without completely revealing the toxin within. It is propaganda for a confused movement of angry people who see themselves as cornered animals, but let’s judge them by their actions. Anyone can put pretty, or not so pretty, words on a website but they show their true colours in the street.

     They want to bow to people in uniform, yet invoke the banner of the Eureka Stockade, which apart from being a pitched battle against police, was also an anti-chinese labour movement. They’ve even assaulted police.

     They cry foul when called bigots, yet…

150. kathysutherland2013November 27, 2015 at 8:11 pm

     @Mick – Many years ago, I used to work with a chap who hated the Japanese, because he’d spent a couple of years in. Japanese concentration camp during World War II. Rather than let his hatred take over, he just left the room or the vicinity whenever there were any Japanese people around. He couldn’t forgive, but refused to give into it. A decent human being. So, as you say, it can be done. We can’t ignore our hatred, but we don’t have to let it take over.

151. Matters NotNovember 27, 2015 at 8:23 pm

     As a concept, ‘common sense’ is often cited to add weight (hopefully) to an argument. Nevertheless, any examination of ‘common sense’ will soon reveal that the ‘common’ that’s alluded to is anything but. Further, the ‘sense’ aspect of the statement is also often shown to be nonsensical.

     Simply, ‘common sense’ assumes far, far too much and as an explanatory concept it falls into the ‘useless’ category.

     Sociology 101.

152. corvus boreusNovember 27, 2015 at 8:24 pm

     Miriam English,
     I wonder if ‘disrespecting our flag’ would include the following behaviors;
     *Having it’s image painted onto the inner sole of cheap poly-rubber footwear, thus treading on it.
     *Having it’s image printed onto underwear, thus smearing it with genitalia.
     *Having it draped upon bare torsos upon the shoulders of demonstrative malcontents as ‘super-hero’ capes, rather than hung proudly from a flag-staff at the start of each day, then folded (with appropriate ceremony) at the setting of each eve.

     Ps, here is my design proposal for an alternative ‘strayan’ flag, one that (I feel) truly represents us as a nation;
     https://plus.google.com/101376772712524479442/posts/6RBtdKoCn73?pid=6204672318192673394&oid=101376772712524479442
     I call it ‘roadkill echidna’.

153. mars08November 27, 2015 at 8:26 pm

     It’s common sense that the earth is at the centre of the universe….

154. LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 9:00 pm

     “As a concept, ‘common sense’ is often cited to add weight (hopefully) to an argument. Nevertheless, any examination of ‘common sense’ will soon reveal that the ‘common’ that’s alluded to is anything but. Further, the ‘sense’ aspect of the statement is also often shown to be nonsensical.”

     Yep. Reclaim Australia opposes multiculturism but the crowd at their rally included supporters from various ethnic backgrounds. Seems like they’re all oozing common sense.

155. silkwormNovember 27, 2015 at 9:05 pm

     “To promote harmony, freedom and tolerance among Australians; specifically we oppose multiculturalism…. Can anyone explain what that means?”

     It means they are promoting tolerance by opposing tolerance.

     That’s simple “common sense.”

156. mars08November 27, 2015 at 9:14 pm

     @Lee… if those people “from various ethnic backgrounds” are deemed to be sufficiently assimilated, then the idea of multiculturalism is irrelevant.

     Of course, I suspect that it would be difficult to determine what “sufficiently assimilated” actually means. From my experience with bigots, the colour of an individual’s hair and skin and the complexity of their surname is often enough to ensure that they can NEVER make the grade.

157. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 10:19 pm

     Oh Dear, you people get yourselves in a knot for me quoting a Telegraph article .Sometimes that is the only source of info
     And who is to say alternate Media is always right, or even even handed ?
     That bastion of “Independence” , Independent Australia , was forced to retract a whole article in regard to Chris Kennys visit to Nauru, and issue an apology to the Journalist Chris Kenny ,
     Two people, to my knowledge simply asked why, on Independent Australia, and were promptly banned from the site .
     Murdochs Media in general prints rubbish but the so called “alternative” can be pretty dictatorial, biased and downright wrong as well .
     Another separate issue I would like to raise, in regard to a couple of outspoken posters here, why answer a question with a question ?
     You seem to be good at that , is it to cover something ?

158. RoswellNovember 27, 2015 at 10:28 pm

     Katrina, yes the Left can be just as prickly at times.

     This article certainly has attracted a large number of emotive comments, some of which have been unnecessary.

     I’m one of the moderators, and it has been difficult to keep up. Generally if a comment is abusive and defamatory to the author or another commenter then I’ll remove it, as would the other moderators I’m sure.

     But we’re also lucky here in that nearly all commenters are respectful and civil. I

159. mars08November 27, 2015 at 10:28 pm

     Yeh… it’s so unfair when there’s only “one source of info”. Especially when you really, really, REALLY want it to be true!

160. LeeNovember 27, 2015 at 10:30 pm

     Prejudices are what fools use for reason. – Voltaire

161. mars08November 27, 2015 at 10:36 pm

     @Lee…. I can cope with prejudices… it’s relentless bigotry that gives me the shits!

162. corvus boreusNovember 27, 2015 at 10:40 pm

     Katrina Logan,
     At 4:58 pm this afternoon I posted a question for you (the first sentence) regarding your thoughts on some of reclaim’s hierarchy/affiliates (All subsequent sentences are declarative statements, with an informational link)
     I am curious as to your answer to that initial question.

163. Matters NotNovember 27, 2015 at 11:16 pm

     Katrina Logan, just a few points in response:

     quoting a Telegraph article .Sometimes that is the only source of info

     only source of info Sad. Very sad. Have you heard of Google?

     who is to say alternate Media is always right, or even even (sic) handed

     Can only agree. It’s you who must always determine the veracity of ‘claims’. No excuses. Be responsible for the judgements you make and be prepared to defend same.

     was forced to retract a whole article in regard to Chris Kennys (sic) visit to Nauru, and issue an apology to the Journalist Chris Kenny

     forced to retract? Not sure about that. If the Murdoch empire was on ‘my case’ and there was a ‘way out’ (like a retraction), I would take it because I don’t have the financial means to ‘fight’ same. I suspect instead of ‘force’ one might be better off using the word ‘choose’. If you have any knowledge of corporate ‘legal’ tactics, in particular the Murdoch variety, you would perhaps consider a different perspective.

     Another separate issue I would like to raise, in regard to a couple of outspoken posters here, why answer a question with a question ?

     When you go to University next year you may be exposed to the Socratic Method. It’s all about a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas.

     And if you’re not so exposed, then refuse to pay your fees and seek an education elsewhere.

     Hope my response has been of assistance. Probably not now. But maybe in the future?

164. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 11:27 pm

     corvus boreus
     Sorry ,I missed your earlier comment as I do have a life .
     As for an association or agreement with other organisations , No I have none .I come from a home where my mother is a committed Green and my father a Reclaim supporter and have been encouraged to form my own opinions .
     Should I hold you responsible for all the comments of apparent regulars here ?
     Should I assume you have a responsibility for every group that may oppose Reclaim views ?
     Do I need to ask your thoughts on all groups that have alternative Reclaim views and your “hierarchy/affiliates (All subsequent sentences are declarative statements, with an informational link)
     I sign my name to what I write.
     I comment on my beliefs
     I have a personal responsibility, not a “group think view” and bear no responsibility for their views
     I have no influence over others thoughts or actions,as I assume is the same with you, so would you like to reconsider your question ?
     If you have questions as to my comments feel free to ask , if you need information about groups or individuals I have no connection with, I suggest you contact them

165. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 11:39 pm

     Roswell
     I ‘m a bit unclear as to your “moderator” comment .
     ” Generally if a comment is abusive and defamatory to the author or another commenter then I’ll remove it,”
     Have I been that ?
     I did not intend to personally offend anyone and I don’t believe I attacked anyone on a personal or individual level.
     If , on the other hand they took offense to my general comment, tough

166. Michael TaylorNovember 27, 2015 at 11:43 pm

     If I may answer for Roswell, to my knowledge you haven’t been abusive or defamatory to anyone. I’m assuming that he was simply telling you how he acts as a moderator. That’s the way I saw it and I’m sure he’ll let me know if I’m wrong.

167. Katrina LoganNovember 27, 2015 at 11:45 pm

     Matter Not
     “forced to retract?”
     I think so
     https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSNsi6IVAAAjYMc.jpg

168. RoswellNovember 27, 2015 at 11:50 pm

     Michael, you are correct. Katrina obviously took it personal.

169. Matters NotNovember 27, 2015 at 11:57 pm

     Actually Katrina your link points to what the site in question chose to do. It was a matter of choice and I suspect they did so for necessary financial considerations.

     They were not ‘forced’ to retract. There was no legal judgement (that ‘forced’ anyone) but a threat to engage in an expensive legal action.

     Can you see the difference?

     If you read your own link, you will find that there’s no reference to ‘force’. It’s just you who decided to give that ;meaning. And there’s no evidence to support same.

170. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 12:06 am

     Matters Not.
     I see your difference , but , if they were right and fairly believed they were right then why not fight it .
     You are trying it on .
     If they were “threatened” and were right , that is even more reason to fight .
     I suggest you go on IA site and ask them , and see how quickly you get deleted and banned
     do you know for certain “it was a matter of choice”?
     Do you have some inside info ?
     are you speaking on IAs behalf or just guessing ?

171. Matters NotNovember 28, 2015 at 12:27 am

     Katrina Logan, your naivety is ‘sweet’.

     They don’t fight it because they can’t afford to. Even if IA defends, successfully, the assertions made, they will still lose in the financial sense.

     Just ask Michael Taylor, who advisedly ‘apologised’. Or perhaps Joe Hockey who ‘won’ the legal case and ‘lost’ hundreds of thousands.

     Here’s a link for your consideration.

     In the Federal Court on Wednesday, Justice White ordered that Fairfax pay no more than 15 per cent of Mr Hockey’s recoverable costs.

     “It is plain that Mr Hockey is not entitled to his costs in full against SMH [the Sydney Morning Herald] and The Age as in those proceedings he failed on the matters which were the real core of his claim,” he said.

     The decision means Mr Hockey’s legal bill is expected to be far in excess of the $200,000 he was awarded

     .
     http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-22/joe-hockey-court-defamation-costs/6639246

     The legal system in Australia (and elsewhere) isn’t about ‘justice’ or even ‘right and wrong’, it’s about the Law.

172. Michael BNovember 28, 2015 at 12:45 am

     Don’t bother Katrina. You’re wasting your time. They’re just looking for excuses to disagree.

     Earlier, Miriam says “I was just looking on one of the “Reclaim” Australia websites. Some of the points are excellent”. And then Mick has to be negative and say “I’m sure whoever has written out their manifesto has tried as hard as they could to squeeze their views into some form that is palatable enough to swallow, without completely revealing the toxin within. It is propaganda”.

     Having different points of view is all well and good, but after reading all that…. well… it says it all.

173. silkwormNovember 28, 2015 at 1:15 am

     I have been banned from commenting at the IA website and also their FB page because I disagreed with their articles on Fiona Barnett and her claims of Satanic ritual abuse. IA was held up to ridicule by MediaWatch over this issue.

174. mars08November 28, 2015 at 1:25 am

     Good grief, Michael B….Miriam English then goes on to say that “…a number of the points are troubling.”

     Take a hard look at yourself, mate! You tried to base your case on just a few words from her comment. Who is the one “looking for excuses”?

     “it says it all”… yes indeed …it does.

175. Miriam PossitaniNovember 28, 2015 at 5:12 am

     Matters Not .
     i saw the comment Katrina Logan mentions on Twitter .
     I asked on IA “Is this real or a stitch up”
     Within 10 minutes the comment was deleted and i was banned .
     I do gind your comment “Katrina Logan, your naivety is ‘sweet’.” very patronising
     I find she is an intelligent brave young woman with the vigor of youth, regardless of whether I agree with her or not
     I also ask what you failed to answer for her .
     Are you an IA insider? “They don’t fight it because they can’t afford to”
     Is that an internal IA quote ?

176. EFenellNovember 28, 2015 at 5:24 am

     Silkworm
     You are not alone in your banning as there is a list of literally hundreds on 4CHAN of those banned on IA, most for asking questions of the moderator/editor

177. corvus boreusNovember 28, 2015 at 5:55 am

     Katrina Logan,
     The reason I asked you about your feelings regarding the bigoted religious fundamentalists and militant neo-nazis who not only attend ‘we claim straya’ rallies in numbers, but are invited to give podium speeches, is because you claim to be both a member and recruiter for that organisation.
     This makes you somewhat beholden to defend or explain their extremely dubious associations (like the UPF).
     I take it from your ‘shrug, dunno, don’t care’ response that you are either willfully ignorant or entirely apathetic about the fact that you recruit for a group that is closely intertwined with fundamentalist whack-jobs and Hitler-worshipping street thugs.

     In reply to your non-answer in the form of a bunch of counter-questions (covering something?), were I to attend, or advocate attending, the disruptive counter-rallies, I might have reason to address the shady nature and conduct of some of the groups who organise and attend them. I do not.

178. Miriam PossitaniNovember 28, 2015 at 6:05 am

     So she has to defend groups that she clearly says she has no affiliation with {UPF} etc
     But you don’t
     Wow, that seems fair

179. corvus boreusNovember 28, 2015 at 6:49 am

     Miriam Possitani,
     Katrina recruits for RA, who are closely tied (overlapping) to the UPF. Hitler-lovers get mic-time at ‘reclaim’ rallies.
     Joining an organisation, then spruiking and recruiting for it’s cause, immediately confers associative responsibilities.
     If she wants to sing the praises of ‘we claim straya’, she (and similar others) should explain or condemn it’s apparent failings.

     I, on the other hand, not only did not aid, organize or attend any counter-rallies, but have, in fact, spoken against holding such events on numerous previous occasions, both in terms of principle (freedom of speech) and wisdom of strategy (feeds the beast).
     I have absolutely no affiliational obligation to condemn the (‘antifas’?) street thuggery at Melton, but do so unreservedly.

     Yes, that does fit my basic criteria for fairness.

180. Matters NotNovember 28, 2015 at 7:49 am

     Miriam Possitani,

     I asked on IA “Is this real or a stitch up”
     Within 10 minutes the comment was deleted and i was banned

     Not surprised in the slightest. But I am surprised at your naivety. Clearly, there was a ‘legal’ settlement reached which undoubtedly included a clause or clauses which had words to the effect of ‘no further comment(s)’. To leave your ‘comment’ there would invite further discussion which could be seen to be in breech of the ‘settlement’ agreed to.

     Are you an IA insider? “They don’t fight it because they can’t afford to”
     Is that an internal IA quote ?

     No not an ‘insider’ because if I was in any way ‘connected’ I wouldn’t be making any comment. Blog owners have legal responsibilities and are always vulnerable to the exercise of legal muscle. Even if the Blog owner is ‘right’ he/she will ‘lose’ when pitied against ‘capital’ of that size.

181. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 7:54 am

     I’ve had a superficial look at IA, and I have to say I’m unsettled by their enthusiastic swallowing of what are pretty clearly the rantings of an unstable individual, Fiona Barnett. Child abuse is a dangerous topic and needs to be reported carefully and responsibly. Failure to do so diminishes cases where actual child abuse has occurred and hurts innocent people where it has not occurred (as happened in the infamous, contagiously widespread satanic cult moral panics in USA in the 1980s and 1990s).

     (I edited my reply because I got Corvus Boreus and Matters Not mixed up. Sorry.)

182. corvus boreusNovember 28, 2015 at 8:16 am

     Miriam English.
     The mix-up matters not to me.
     Corvus boreus. 😉

     Ps, I left you some thoughts on flags and forms of disrespect at 8:24 last night.

183. Matters NotNovember 28, 2015 at 8:29 am

     got Corvus Boreus and Matters Not mixed up. Sorry

     Sorry will not suffice. You’ll be hearing from my legal team. CB suffers from paraphilia and like conditions. I do not! The mistake is inexcusable.

     Or something. (Just jokin …)

     Some lovers of free speech such as the dog botherer get excited when it’s actually exercised.

184. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 8:40 am

     Just checked back in to see if anyone answered the question of what they are reclaiming or how their way of life has changed. Still no answer.

     Miriam, you say there are some good points like striving for gender equality but that is hardly something they can “reclaim” since we never had it in the first place.

     Until someone can explain to me what they are trying to reclaim I can only judge on what I see which is hateful bigotry.

     PS Whilst Katrina claims to not engage in group think, her comments would indicate otherwise. I find it very unlikely that several people all independently became concerned about Chris Kenny at the same time. I also find it odd that people would go interstate to protest about a mosque being built nowhere near their own community unless there is some “groupthink” going on. If you want to be an individual then you don’t join groups like Reclaim Australia particularly when you have no idea what they are “reclaiming”.

185. corvus boreusNovember 28, 2015 at 8:40 am

     Matters Not,
     To correct and clarify, I do not ‘suffer’ from paraphilia, but, rather, proudly espouse an asexual form of dendrophilia.

186. MickNovember 28, 2015 at 8:52 am

     Michael B,

     The reason I said that is to emphasise how political organisations, especially ones as duplicitous as RA who have known white supremacists as leaders then claim they are not racists or bigots, have constitutions that don’t reveal the nature of the party’s leaders or the policies they truly will put in practice. The Australian constitution guaranteed freedom of and from religion, yet for years Catholics were all but excluded from upper ranks of our young flawed nation.

     I am not just looking for reasons to disagree and have no connection with Miriam. Can I ask you this though, do you see no negative aspects to this current crop “patriot” movements? Do you think they are being positive? Or for a thought experiment, let’s take the Kurds, who have taken on Daesh in full, and are seen as the only hope for many in the region, and are majority Muslims. If they came to Australia after years of warfare, fighting extremists, would their request to build a mosque be met with positivity?

     I am looking for ways think about this situation in Australia. I am looking for context and cause. Emotional, historical, psychological and political. I see peoples upbringing and psychological responses as significant causes for their behaviour, good and bad, and urge compassion in all cases. Yes I get angry. Yes I feel the need to defend our nation and those among us who have been targeted unfairly. I want to help. If I meet a young islamic kid getting angry at the world and considering joining a hate group, I would try to chill them out and promote empathy. If I meet a young white Australian getting angry at the world…I would do the same. I would and have done this.

     I have been involved in environmental activism and groups seeking to find the truth about and underlying causes of Australia’s treatment of asylum seekers. I have also been involved in campaigning against and discussing Australia’s involvement in American conflicts overseas. As the child of a military family, this has often put me at odds with other activists in the field who have no way of relating to soldiers or the effects of government propaganda on their lives.

     In those groups I have faced, and faced down similar problems as the one I mentioned, and you took issue with. People in political causes often, though not always, make their statements carefully in order to not alienate potential allies. Labor, Liberal, Greens, PUP, you name it. They all have their propaganda. It is something I struggle with as in many ways it can be an essential way of participating in life. But it can be a real issue when the things being obscured by those careful words pose an extreme danger to society, as I think the views of RA/UPF, if and when, they are put into practice can be. And I promote heartfelt discussion. I promote integration, not segregation. But I do not promote either of those options being forced on us.

     The truth however, is that a democracy does not guarantee that you get what you want, even if you are a part of the dominant demographic. The dominant demographic often has no way of seeing itself clearly or the consequences of its collective actions. Just like how often it takes outside help to guide us through relationship or personal problems, to shine a light on the habits we have that we don’t see ourselves. It takes kindness.

     Anybody in their right mind sees Daesh as a horrible organisation. But for these groups to claim that practitioners of Islam basically are not capable of being in their right mind shows their lack of empathy. The majority of people in harms in this particular struggle, are Muslim. By accident of birth, they are in the firing line. If, an extremist group eventually takes over Australia, I would certainly hope that, if I had to flee, or chose to send my children to a safe country, they would not be persecuted there too.

187. Matters NotNovember 28, 2015 at 9:03 am

     corvus boreus, please accept my apologies re the use of ‘paraphilia’ and not ‘dendrophilia’ which is a far less pejorative term.

     I take it I will hear from your legal team?

188. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 9:26 am

     🙂 Corvus, I saw the flag. Sorry for neglecting to reply. It is sadly appropriate to Australia and the way we run major roads through areas without any thought for our effect upon the local ecology.

     I remember once, when I was a kid, walking along a newly built section of highway and being appalled at the hundreds of rare and utterly beautiful Burton’s legless lizards that were roadkill on a single stretch of one or two hundred meters. It would have been simple to install pipe underpasses for wildlife, but I’m sure the builders and designers of that road were never even conscious that there was a problem to be fixed. I would not be surprised if they managed to completely exterminate this sweet, inoffensive creature in that area. This is a real problem all over Australia. I keep hearing advocates of “development” say that they are only affecting some tiny percentage of the wilderness, while ignoring the fact that we only have a tiny bit of wilderness left, and destroying a tiny percent each year quickly becomes a large fraction over just a single decade because they build roads to service the destruction, with their attendant roadkill problem, alteration of water flow, silting of creeks and rivers, and introduction of pest animals and plants (cats being the worst offenders). And of course they never take just the tiny bit they promised. Australia has an appalling record of species extinction — one of the worst in the world. This in a supposedly enlightened country.

     I can’t really comment on ways to disrespect the flag. It’s something I never really understood, and I don’t mean that I merely disagree with it, I mean that I truly don’t understand it in the most basic sense. To me, those people who talk of disrespecting the flag sound like they’re saying something like that old joke: “Why is a mouse when it spins?” (Answer: “Because the higher the fewer.”) It sounds like it should mean something, but it doesn’t. I recognise you were jokingly pointing out ways the most crazed patriots might appear to disrespect the flag, by their own definitions, but being utterly confounded by the original idea of respecting a symbol, I kind of miss the joke, I think. Sorry, I’m aware that I can be a bit stupid sometimes. 🙂

189. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 9:31 am

     😀 heheheh
     I had to look up paraphilia and dendrophilia.

190. corvus boreusNovember 28, 2015 at 9:37 am

     Miriam English,
     Glad you got the broad symbology in the flag design.

     Ps, for another new word, try ‘vexillolatry’.

191. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 9:47 am

     Correction: Burton’s legless lizard is not rare. I’m astounded to find out it is so widespread. I feel a little better about the devastation visited upon those pretty little things… but only a little. The roads near another place I lived were the killing grounds for countless wombats. I, for one, will be glad when petroleum prices restrict vehicles to only being used when absolutely necessary.

192. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 9:59 am

     Kay Lee 8.40
     ” I also find it odd that people would go interstate to protest about a mosque ”
     Don’t make stuff up, when did I ever do that .
     And it seems the conspiracy bug got you
     ” I find it very unlikely that several people all independently became concerned about Chris Kenny at the same time.”
     Damn, someone commented at the ridiculous hour of 5 am and somehow it’s my fault ?
     I’m lucky to be awake this early ! 9.52 a.am
     and
     “If you want to be an individual then you don’t join groups like Reclaim Australia”
     I participate in CSG groups, March in March events , even last night I was assisting Anonymous and Ourstolose . Should I stay away from them too, or just ones you choose for me .
     Your advice ? thanks but no thanks

193. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 10:06 am

     And for those assuming I drape myself in a flag, sorry
     I have never drapped myself in the flag and disagree with those who do
     This is put of respect for my Pop, a WW2 soldier and avid studier of Vexillology.
     He taught me that
     The flag should be raised briskly and lowered ceremoniously.
     The flag should be raised no earlier than first light and lowered no later than dusk.
     When the flag is raised or lowered, or when it is carried in a parade or review, everyone present should be silent and face the flag. People in uniform should salute.
     Two flags should not be flown from the same flagpole.
     The flag may be flown at night only when it is illuminated.
     The flag should never be flown if it is damaged, faded or dilapidated. When the material of a flag deteriorates it should be destroyed privately and in a dignified way. i.e. it may be cut into small unrecognisable pieces then disposed of with the normal rubbish collection.
     The flag should not be flown upside down, even as a signal of distress.
     The flag should not fall or lie on the ground or be used as a cover (although it can be used to cover a coffin at a funeral).

194. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 10:07 am

     🙂 Though I hadn’t encountered it before I guessed it was worship of flags (vexillum=flag).
     Cool. Thanks. Another word to add to my vocabulary.

195. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 10:08 am

     Diannaaart
     as for all your misconceptions of me, I will be back to answer when I wake up properly

196. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 10:11 am

     Still no answer to how your life has changed and what you are trying to “reclaim”.

     I didn’t make stuff up. Nor did I say anything about you personally travelling.

     http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bendigo-mosque-a-cause-celebre-for-rightwing-outsiders-20140627-zsoft.html

     It was presumptuous of me to suggest that joining Reclaim Australia shows a lack of individual thought though I was not referring to you specifically in that comment. You are very quick to take offence and very confrontational in your replies. It would be more helpful if you could explain what Reclaim Australia hopes to achieve and what they are trying to reclaim rather than taking discussion so personally.

     I mentioned Chris Kenny because, when we get an influx of new people coming here and complaining, it can nearly always be tracked back to the same source and it is useful to know where people get their information from. We have at times had influxes of people who get their information from Larry Pickering for example. It was an ugly experience.

197. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 10:16 am

     Ouch, Katrina. While you might not drape yourself physically in the flag, you certainly do seem to drape yourself ideologically in it.

     On the other hand, kudos to you for your involvement in Anonymous, CSG protesting, and some of the other stuff. Good for you. Beware of “Reclaim” Australia though. Their unsavory associations will come back to haunt many otherwise good and well-meaning people.

198. Adam KNovember 28, 2015 at 10:21 am

     Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 9:59 am

     You probably don’t go interstate to protest a mosque being built but the movement you’re claiming affiliation with does. Yeah, that’s the sort of people that you’ve chosen to identify yourselves with.

     People that are so consciously against someone else’s way of life that they’re willing to cross State boundaries to protest because the locals don’t share their unwillingness to allow Muslims to practice their religion in peace.

199. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 10:36 am

     My father also fought in WWII and he hated the jingoism often associated with flag worship and ANZAC Day. He never attended a dawn service or a march. After the war he taught the children of refugees during the day in the western suburbs of Sydney and at night he taught English to adult migrants. He rarely spoke about the war but when he did it was not with pride. He had enormous respect for his fellow diggers but an abhorrence of the racist hatred and desire for revenge that war engenders.

     A flag may be a symbol of a nation but it is not the piece of cloth that should be respected but rather the values that it represents which is why it seems so wrong that our flag has become a symbol for those who preach hatred and intolerance.

200. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 10:40 am

     I have friends who have crossed state lines to protest CSG , I personally have to a save the Reef, and to Canberra to attend a rally on Climate .
     I take full responsibility for my actions and do it in my name
     I am not responsible for others, no more than you are
     If someone you knows protests on any issue, do I hold you responsible ?
     I identify myself with the issue, not the people who may or may not attend as I have no bearing over that
     I am opposed to the Turnbull Government on almost everything .
     Am I responsible for all the actions and comments of those with similar views

201. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 10:45 am

     Miriam English
     “you certainly do seem to drape yourself ideologically in it.”
     Is that the case when I protest to save the reef, or for Oz to act responsibly on Climate, or when I argue for national infrastructure programmes . or the Murray Darling etc,
     or when it suits you to use it as some philosophical argument in the vain hope it will strengthen your argument

202. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 10:51 am

     Kay Lee,
     obviously your father had a different view to my Pop
     what do you want to do, try and politicise that so you can in some way have a go at me
     Good on your dad for what he did.
     he obviously believed in it .
     My pop had a hobby, Vexillology.
     the love of flags of all nations and liked to share his interest with me, hence my limited knowledge of Vexillology
     No need for cheap shots

203. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 11:06 am

     Katrina, I will say again, you are seeing personal attacks where none are being made. You freely state your opinion but seem to think that others doing likewise are engaging in cheap shots.

     It is my personal opinion that worship of any kind is, at best, a waste of time and money and at worst, the promotion of ‘them vs us’.

     Still waiting to hear what you are hoping to reclaim.

204. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 11:07 am

     Katrina, calm down. Take a breath. I wasn’t insulting you. In fact in the very next sentence I praised you.

     It is true that I’m mystified by the desire to revere the flag, but that’s a simple straightforward statement. I truly don’t understand it and I think it is a mistake, but I don’t think it is immoral.

205. Michael TaylorNovember 28, 2015 at 11:08 am

     I’ve noticed that about Katrina. She thinks it’s all about her.

     No, it’s not, Katrina. You’re taking generalisations personally.

206. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 11:13 am

     I would also like to give praise to Katrina for her passion and involvement, something that is lacking too often in our comfortable, apathetic society.

     One thing though, you are selling people here short in my opinion Katrina. We are not here to have facebook wars. Our readers are, in the main, very well-informed concerned citizens who share a desire to improve our society.

     I am worried about the intolerance preached by groups like Reclaim Australia. I am worried by people who want everyone to carry a gun.

207. MickNovember 28, 2015 at 11:32 am

     This is all such a heated issue, because Australia and civil rights and human rights are all so precious to us. We as individuals all have complex and subtle views and feelings, even though some may not have the tools to express them succinctly or even accurately. More often than not we are walking contradictions.

     My father in one breath chastised me for using the word coon, then in the next breath wished he’d killed more of the bastards in Vietnam, then in the next breath told my uncle off for still believing all the bullshit the army had brainwashed him with. This is individuality.

     Every person in Reclaim is an individual. Every word they say must be taken in context to the best of our abilities. I too crossed state lines in order to visit detention centres in this country, and many did so to go to the Woomera break-out. I was trained in activist circles in arts of non-violent direct action. Taught how to liaise with community members. Walked in rallies where thousands of people chanted the same boring chants. The people in those rallies, chanting in unison could hardly agree in meetings how to proceed, because while they often wanted a similar outcome, it was for different reasons, and with different views of how things should go if that outcome should be achieved. This is a part of democracy and democratic process.

     Reclaim in my view, is responding to their fears about sovereignty and culture through congregations that resort to hate. The Greens are responding to fears of social inequality and environmental destruction, and at times, the views of some of their members and followers are filled with hate too. It is a different type of hate, but nonetheless, it is what is. The same goes for every movement. It is all too easy, and human, to distrust what you don’t understand and to generalise. We reinforce this distrust with little throwaway comments about rednecks, bogans, Muzzies, ragheads, Liberals, etc, but as always it is never black and white.

     Christopher Pyne recently shocked me by giving me something to agree with him about. The same has happened at times with Barnaby Joyce and Bob Katter. Not natural allies of a person like me, but it happens because they, like me, are complicated human beings.

     When Abbott was left nodding in disbelief at the attacks on him about his shit happens statement, I actually took his side. The only time I can say that has happened for me. I think that he did not mean that it was insignificant that an Australian soldier had been killed. I thought he was trying to console the American soldier who accidentally killed him. When the interviewer kept pressing him, it felt to me like cheap politics and nasty. If somebody tried to pin that on me I’d be stupefied by anger too. I am not a Liberal supporter, and am so relieved to be rid of Abbott, but I felt for him.

     Like Abbott, Reclaim Australia frightens me. What appears to their agenda, scares me. But I want to be able to listen to them, not dispassionately, but free from hate, because hate is the worst kind of filter. It distorts and obscures and hurts. The hurt is then turned into redirected aggression. The direction it is taking is frightening. It may seem legitimate to some, but if a movement like this really took hold here, if it coalesced and got into positions of power, we could kiss forums like this goodbye.

208. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 11:56 am

     Michael Taylor
     “I’ve noticed that about Katrina. She thinks it’s all about her.”
     Michael,
     If you look back over the comments I have made, in the main I am only responding to those that start..

     ‘Katrina ”
     I’m assuming they are directing their comments and questions to me, hence I respond
     Any that begin
     “Michael”
     you won’t find a word from me
     I have tried to be honest and direct in my responses which I assumed were aimed at me “Katrina”
     So as not to appear that “She thinks it’s all about her.”
     I will be a bit more vague and generalist in my responses, unless banned beforehand

209. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 12:02 pm

     Katrina you won’t be banned for expressing your view provided you continue to do so in a civil manner as you have been doing. I am sorry if I appear to be targeting you but we learn more from discussing things with people with whom we disagree.

     You said “I take full responsibility for my actions and do it in my name
     I am not responsible for others, no more than you are
     I identify myself with the issue, not the people who may or may not attend as I have no bearing over that”

     It seems to me that Reclaim Australia want to blame all Muslims for the actions of a few. Are Australian Muslims to be held responsible for everything that IS does? What IS the issue that you are identifying with when you support RA?

210. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 12:30 pm

     Kaye Lee,
     I work at a fast food joint so I will answer in pieces as I have to do a shift .
     I live in an area with a large muslim population .
     From others I have spoken to,in other similar areas nothing differs .
     If you are a late teen early 20s female ,out at night you can be assured of being hassled by car loads of Muslim hoons sprouting filthy vile Islamic trash at us so called ‘Infidels” “skips” , all the while bragging about jihads and radical Islam rubbish and making threats in general .This isn’t an isolated incident but a regular feature of a night out.
     It is not unusual for a lone Aussie male to be laid into by a bunch of these “heroes ”
     The group at school bragging and celebrating, hi 5s and all, about the latest terror attacks and the time we will all be Muslim or dead through jihad is where it all started
     If you know of any similar females in like areas, check their experience with them .
     That is why so many of us are supporting Reclaim .
     have to go now , will add later

211. MickNovember 28, 2015 at 12:40 pm

     Katrina, without getting too specific, where do you live?

212. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 12:43 pm

     Kaye Lee and Michael Taylor .
     My own mum reckons I am hot headed, stubborn and opinionated so I understand your comments .
     She is hoping I grow out of it by 18, but with less than 2 months to go I don’t see the fairies delivering her wish 😀

213. Michael TaylorNovember 28, 2015 at 12:43 pm

     I don’t like the idea that the kids in the school referred to by Katrina reacted like that. But why would they in the first place? Might it have something to do with the hate and division being peddled by the Murdoch media? Might those kids have been victims of this hate?

214. Michael TaylorNovember 28, 2015 at 12:50 pm

     Katrina, I was the same at 18. Give it time. 🙂

215. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 1:05 pm

     Michael Taylor ,
     Looks like I will be late for my shift :-]
     As I tried to point out earlier , not many young people use ww web , why should they ? not much to cater to their concerns ,
     Most go, Deep, IRC, ftp .
     The crap at school doesn’t come from Murdoch Media , they flash around the latest beheadings, murders, mutilations, 3 year olds being taugh what jihad is etc all from Radical Islam sites with plenty of hatred added in all on their devices .
     That is why I am so committed to Anonymous and all we can do to smash ISIS

     Mick,
     Hunter, previously Illawarra , absolutely no difference in experiences
     gotta go, can’t afford to lose any more income

216. silkwormNovember 28, 2015 at 1:17 pm

     Katrina, it seems you haven’t learned the lesson of the Cronulla riots – violence leads to more violence, which leads to more violence still.

     Speaking of which, its tenth anniversary is coming up in two weeks. Several weeks ago, a couple of “Reclaimers” started advertising that they wanted to celebrate it in December with a rally in one of the Cronulla parks, but council and police have not granted permission. As it turned out, these nasties were advertsing their rally as another “riot.” This shows the mentality of the leaders of this movement. I have already mentioned the arrest of a “Reclaimer” leader in Melbourne who was intending to use tasers against his political opponents.

     Why haven’t any of the “Reclaimers” on this thread disclaimed or denounced or condemned the violent tendencies of their movement?

     Katrina, listen to your mother. You need to dissociate yourself from this bunch of thugs who identify with the political Right and who in most cases are followers of our former PM, Tony Abbott, another thug.

217. MickNovember 28, 2015 at 1:30 pm

     Katrina,

     What you are dealing with are hooligans in cars, not Muslims. Some Muslims may be hooligans, but not all hooligans are Muslims you would have to agree, not by a long shot. Have you ever heard anybody else hurl abuse out of a car window? Have you ever heard racist taunts that weren’t directed at you? Here are some of my experiences relating to racism and bigotry in this wonderful world.

     I have a friend from Indonesia, a dark skinned man who was attacked by six white Australians on his first night in our country. They told him to go back to his own country. He was raised in Hindu Bali as a Muslim, before attempting to convert to Judaism for family reasons before ultimately becoming Rastafarian.

     I am white, but I tan and I once had white guys call me a nigger as they drove past me at the traffic lights.

     My ex’s father converted to Islam in the sixties and was taunted constantly when he was drafted to fight in Vietnam by his colleagues who singled him out.

     I have heard an aboriginal man calling Africans monkeys in the street .

     I know a young aboriginal man who the last time he was in my home town was called a nigger in the street, but knew if he retaliated he would be seen as another aggressive abo.

     I have family through marriage from Asia who were pelted with eggs and told to go back to their country in Perth.

     My wife has had similar treatment on trains and in shops.

     I know a black man who was being called a monkey on a train China while he sat there.

     I recently heard two white men walking down the street while I was in California screaming “I Hate Niggers” at the top of their lungs.

     When a boat full of asylum seekers landed in Geraldton in WA, my friend overheard a girl suggesting loudly and openly that it should be towed out to sea and sunk, murdering all on board. I have had friends and family suggest the same.

     A policeman once recommended to a member of my family that if he had to shoot an aboriginal man, fire a shot in the air after to make it sound like a warning.

     You are young Katrina, and I admire your willingness to discuss these issues here with hardened lefties. Please think carefully about this. If everywhere you go you feel targeted and it has driven you to groups like Reclaim, put yourself in other’s shoes, even just for a thought experiment. Many Muslims in this country feel this way right now. There is enormous pressures on them at the moment worldwide due to the actions, and reactions, of extremists. But the fact is, that many are Muslims purely by association, as I was baptised Catholic because it was my families tradition, though I never went to church or had a religious upbringing. Imagine if people started associating me with pedophiles just because I happen to have been born into a situation beyond my control.

     Many people experience hatred directed toward them in this country from many different angles, but the worst of us do not represent the rest of us.

     Don’t grow up too fast.

     Peace.

218. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 2:33 pm

     Katrina, sexual harassment is nothing new. I could write volumes about what I have endured over the years and it had nothing to do with race or religion. In days gone by, if you walked past a construction site and didn’t get harassed you wondered what was wrong with you.

     Boys (and some girls) have also bragged about violence since time immemorial. We used to have sharpies and skinheads and bikies and the most proprietorial of all, the surfies who made it very clear that people from the western suburbs were not welcome at “their” beach. Being a teacher I have broken up countless schoolyard fights that are just pissing contests really.

     If they were my schoolmates I would ask how they think beheading people will make the world a better place. I would ask them how they would feel if their mother or sister was abducted and raped. I would ask them if they feel alienated and what has made them so angry. I would endeavour to have a conversation about how we can all live together in peace and respect.

     Teenage years are a very turbulent time for most and testosterone can be a very ugly thing but poor behaviour towards women and too much aggression is certainly not exclusive to Muslim males. Perhaps if you said to your schoolmates that you will support their right to worship and to eat and dress as they please if they will do likewise for you it might be a constructive way to start a conversation. Instead, we are seeing two arms of intolerance facing off with many innocent people caught in the middle.

219. Matters NotNovember 28, 2015 at 2:56 pm

     Harassment? They even wrote a song about it. The Newcastle Song.

220. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 4:21 pm

     That song brings back so many memories Matters Not. The day I got my licence I jumped in the car with two girlfriends and we drove to Crescent Head and met a guy from Newcastle who had the obligatory panel van with animal skin print seat covers. Also, on my first day of high school I got punched in the face by a tough girl who said to me “what are YOU looking at” to which I responded “Dunno, didn’t bring my zoo book with me”. She punched me but I still feel I was the winner on the day 😉

221. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 4:27 pm

     Yeow. Bad situation Katrina. No wonder you’re angry.

     If I was in your position I’d contact the people at the local mosque. In Parramatta I guess that would be mosque chairman Neil Elkadomi. I’m pretty sure you’d be well received by them. I used to live about 10 doors away from the Preston Mosque in Melbourne and in my experience the Mosque leaders are generally moderate people who have a very acute understanding of how dangerous it is for the entire Muslim community when groups of young men go around threatening girls and women or attacking non-Muslim boys. Just reading on the web (how I found Elkadomi’s name), he is already worried about it and has been asking the government to help fund a de-radicalisation program. The government, for reasons known only to themselves, have been procrastinating. But then, I guess that’s understandable; this is the same government that has slashed $300 million from women’s shelters that protect women at risk of murder by their partners. (Then made a big deal about giving $100 million back.)

     As Mick said, hate and anger will throw more fuel on the flames. Has Abbott’s politics of division already gone too far? I hope not. We might still get out of this relatively peacefully. Most Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, and others just want to live peaceful lives. When we get people like Tony Abbott, Pauline Hanson, Danny Nalliah, and a number of the deplorable racists in our current government fanning the flames of hate it tends to make stupid, impressionable, mostly male, young Muslims become radical and have sympathies with jihadist loons.

222. mars08November 28, 2015 at 4:58 pm

     When we get people like Tony Abbott, Pauline Hanson, Danny Nalliah, and a number of the deplorable racists in our current government fanning the flames of hate it tends to make stupid, impressionable, mostly male, young Australians ALSO become radical and have sympathies with racist, hyper-nationalist loons.

223. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 5:27 pm

     Those two paragraphs sum it up for me. Many young men have aggression to burn and tend to congregate in groups when left idle or when feeling threatened. In my experience it has always been thus.

     I have also found it amazing how they transform as they grow. Educate them, involve them in sport, give them jobs, help them find ways to make valuable contributions – we should expect good role models from our leaders but the power of positive examples from peers has a far greater impact. People need to feel like they belong. They need to feel worthwhile. If our young people are misbehaving then we need to do more to help them realise their self-worth, their potential, and their place in making Australia a caring nation towards all. They need to feel valued, something that for some people comes when they have children of their own. We should not make them wait so long.

224. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 5:33 pm

     Thanks for the correction mars08. You are right, of course.

225. Miriam EnglishNovember 28, 2015 at 5:45 pm

     Yes, Kaye. That’s the trick: finding ways to get past the aggressive peer group where they’re egging each other on and feeding each other’s anger.

     I’ve met young guys who have lost all perspective in their callous anger toward others. Despite living for a while in a mostly Muslim and Italian suburb, the angriest young men I met were arrogant capitalists from well-to-do suburbs who had real revolutionary zeal, and believed that everybody who didn’t earn money deserved nothing, not even life. I wonder how they are now. Perhaps they’ve mellowed. I hope so.

226. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 6:08 pm

     Ok, Ill try to get to you all .
     1.Please don’t assume that I am naive enough to not know the difference between sexual harassment by a bunch of morons and what is racially religious based vile
     2 . 2 years ago I did report one instance , he claimed he was joking and got away with it, I got accused of being Islamophobic.
     He is now in Syria
     3.Mick . my Pop taught me early, sticks and stones and names etc .and I get that ., but knives and suicide belts and jihad

227. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 6:09 pm

     ABC NEWS today
     Former terrorist Abdurrahman Ayyub warns Australia is ‘ticking time bomb’ of extremism
     The former deputy head of the Australian branch of Jemaah Islamiah has described Australia as a “ticking time bomb” as it struggles to contain the spread of radicalism.
     Abdurrahman Ayyub was once one of Australia’s most-wanted terrorists.
     “Australia is sitting on a time bomb, which means people can quickly turn radical and extreme, even though now they seem calm,” Mr Ayyub said.

228. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 6:15 pm

     Some of the things that firmed my thinking- videos available of all
     Abu Sakkar, commander in the FSA, cut out the heart of a fallen Syrian soldier, and ate it before a cheering crowd of his men shouting “God is Great”
     I have the video if you like

     Millions of women living under ISIS-rule where jihadis abuse girls as young as 9
     AN EXTRAORDINARY investigation into the Islamic State (ISIS) terror group has revealed the jihadists have up to FOUR MILLION women living under their brutal regime The Channel 4 Dispatches documentary, Escape From ISIS,
     video available

229. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 6:16 pm

     oung Girl Buried up to Her Neck and Stoned to Death by Muslim Males in Afghanistan
     Posted by sharia unveiled on November 3, 2015
     wideo available
     They’ve converted and we’ve married them off to jihadists’: Boko Haram leader reveals the fate of more than 200 kidnapped Nigerian schoolgirls
     video available
     200 Girls Rescued From Boko Haram Camps Are Not the Chibok Schoolgirls

     —The Nigerian army said that the hundreds of women and girls rescued from camps run by Islamist group Boko Haram Tuesday are not the same ones who were kidnapped from a Chibok school last April.
     After Nigerian forces rescued 200 girls and 93 women from the Boko-Haram occupied Sambisa forest, many hoped missing Chibok schoolgirls whose abduction inspired the global campaign to ‘Bring Back Our Girls’ would be among them
     video available

230. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 6:20 pm

     And that is just what they want you to think Katrina. Yes there are some bad people in Australia but we have laws to protect us and the vast majority of people just want to live their lives in peace. You keep talking about things that MIGHT happen, or things that have happened overseas. How you can apply that to Australia is beyond me. I can accept that you did not like the way that some Muslim boys at your school have behaved but you seem to feel that is worse than if non-Muslims behave the same way.

     Sexual harassment from anyone is not acceptable. It is not any worse if the justification is religious. I am not surprised you were called Islamophobic if you think abuse based on religion is somehow worse than that by “a bunch of morons”.

231. mars08November 28, 2015 at 6:34 pm

     Not sure how many people saw this story… . … http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3329800/Man-pushes-Sky-News-reporter-way-shouts-expletives-live-television-Reclaim-Australia-rally.html

232. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 6:40 pm

     Female Genital Mutilation occurs in non-Muslim societies in Africa and is practiced by Christians, Muslims and Animists alike. In Egypt, where perhaps 97 percent of girls suffer genital mutilation, both Christian Copts and Muslims are complicit.

     There are five countries that authorize beheading as a method of execution. They include: Benin, Republic of the Congo, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen.

     The Catholic sex abuse cases are a series of allegations, investigations, trials, and convictions of child sexual abuse crimes committed by Catholic priests, nuns, and members of Roman Catholic orders against boys and girls, some as young as 3 years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14. In 2012, an Australian police report in the state of Victoria detailed 40 deaths by suicide of child victims of Catholic clergy,

     One in six Australian women has experienced violence from a current or former partner. One in three Australian women will experience violence in their lifetime. Sixty-three women have been killed in Australia this year.

     You can hunt around the net to find the most shocking cases available Katrina but if you want to Reclaim Australia it would be helpful if you stuck to Australia….or are you trying to Reclaim the World and enforce our culture worldwide? Are Australians to be held responsible for all the atrocities committed anywhere in the world?

233. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 6:45 pm

     I must say, these fanatical leaders of Islamic death cults seem to be very generous people , wishing to forestall their own alleged ambition .
     We see them giving 13 year old iliterate uneducated kids suicide belts and cars to commit Jihad and their gain entrance to Paradise and 13 vestal virgins and martyrdom , and all the while they stay home, take a 12 year old bride, {kidnap if necessary }and tolerate planet earth
     BBc Documentary ISIS in Afghanistan
     Or the women persuading teens in Britain to run away, become ISIS brides and commit Jihad while they live on in reative safety in cold old London
     BBC Documentary ISIS women in Britain
     Or the rapid radicalisation
     BBC Doco My Son the Jihadi

234. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 6:52 pm

     Katrina…you live in AUSTRALIA

235. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 6:53 pm

     Kaye Lee.
     Where, even once, did I mention FGM ?
     You can have a go at me for things I do say but please don’t invent reasons

236. mars08November 28, 2015 at 6:56 pm

     How’s the view from the saddle of that gleaming, white high horse, Katrina.?

     Gosh, you’re becoming tedious.

     So we don’t want the people on the receiving end of those atrocities to come to this country. You want to lock them out. Splendid. But why? Well, because those traumatised, powerless victims might take something from you. Not sure what though. And besides… it’s obvious that all Muslims are horrible people, right?

     bah!

237. Adrianne HaddowNovember 28, 2015 at 7:00 pm

     I fear Katrina may be inflating her Muslim experience, if as you all seem to believe, she resides in Newcastle.

     A quick check of the profile for Newcastle shows that of a population of 160,021, only 9% (1,399 residents) identify as Islamic.
     I am unsure of the number of Islamic students/ temporary residents at the university. But there is no one suburb that has a significant Islamic population.
     There are only three Islamic institutions listed in the area, two mosques and an Islamic centre located at the university.

     There were plans to build a new mosque in an outer suburb but those plans were overturned as a result of a misinformation campaign , a letterbox drop which informed local residents of the disadvantages in terms of pollution from the crematorium to be located in the grounds of the mosque. ( yep I guess these new age Muslims burn their dead contrary to the traditional practice of interment). Residents were also warned that the noise levels from the call to prayer would adversely affect their sleep and their daily lives. In addition, the reason that overturned planning permission, that the mosque being located close to a shopping centre would impact adversely on traffic and parking.

     On the other hand the Muslim population have been harassed constantly and consistently. A severed pig’s head left at the entrance to the mosque, death threats posted on the walls, local Muslim residents having bottles of urine thrown onto their doorsteps by teenage girls at a sleepover next door. Two Muslim women passing through Newcastle subjected to the aggression of one anti Islamic crusader who reviled them when they stopped for refreshment and had to be stopped by passers-by. He was subsequently charged by police. And these are only the reported incidents.

     I am not denigrating Katrina’s experience of harassment and hope she is never subjected to this again, but I am pointing out the type of hateful nasty actions that have been visited upon the Muslim population in the Newcastle area.

238. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 7:04 pm

     Have you ever considered that migrants come here fleeing those sort of atrocities? Have you ever asked yourself why an extremist fundamentalist would choose Australia to live in? Do you resent giving people a chance at a better life?

239. MickNovember 28, 2015 at 7:09 pm

     Yes and the majority of those women are Muslim. Do you think they are going to give up their faith because psychopaths have taken control of their country? Do you think it’s fair to ask them, should they be blessed to come to our peaceful country, to not build places of worship for reflection? Do you think it’s fair to target Muslim women in Australia because they are targeted in their home country? Not to mention, that Islam has been in Australia since the 1800’s. Is it fair to ask Muslims born here to fit in or eff off?

240. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 7:12 pm

     My daughter attends Newcastle University. She has not mentioned any concerns about students though administration and lecturers have copped the odd serve. My son played cricket for the Hunter region. I used to give his Muslim teammate a lift when his father was occupied with prayers. He was a very respectful quiet kid….his younger siblings were more outgoing.

     I just don’t understand the fear. Yes they were different. So what? I am sure there are some bad Muslims just like there are bad drunk footballers.

241. Katrina LoganNovember 28, 2015 at 7:12 pm

     OK, I get the hint .
     You keep your blinkered views and I will leave you alone to it .
     I may drop back after the first domestic attack

242. mars08November 28, 2015 at 7:19 pm

     Well that was easier than expected…

243. Adrianne HaddowNovember 28, 2015 at 7:32 pm

     Sorry, my post re Newcastle was incorrect with regard to figures I meant to write 0.9% Islamic population. I was never good with numbers.
     I was a useless humanities student.

244. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 7:50 pm

     I consider myself good with numbers but today I have been trying to help my son study for his university statistics exam and I am rapidly growing to hate them. Monthly business activity statements add to my angst in case any of those champions of red tape removal and small government are listening. You have turned me into a tax collector and burdened me the requisite paperwork….but I digress.

245. silkwormNovember 28, 2015 at 7:52 pm

     Katrina Logan is a Bogan. She can’t even spell “illiterate”!!!

246. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 8:01 pm

     I don’t want Katrina to go away. She seems a thoughtful young woman. I want her to look beyond the sensationalist videos and articles. I want her to think about the questions we have raised. I want her to question if fear is being exaggerated for political purposes. I want her to recognise that Australia is unique and that, whilst we have our problems, they too are unique. I want her to identify problems in OUR society and offer solutions. I want her to learn the value of conciliation and negotiation. Interested people like her are our future so we must give her the best information available but more importantly, teach her to question what she hears and to check the reliability of sources. I want her to ask herself if hatred can ever be beaten by hatred.

247. mars08November 28, 2015 at 8:13 pm

     @Kaye Lee… seems she’s not yet ready to seriously contemplate those questions. Maybe in time….

     Consider tbat the roots of this latest episode goes back to the1970s… long before she was born. She it a child of 21st century media sensationalism and government hysteria.

248. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 8:37 pm

     I well remember the arrogance of youth when I knew everything mars08. The experience of life has shown me how much I have to learn and how important it is to consider things from another’s perspective, to question why things happen rather than react to events.

249. mars08November 28, 2015 at 8:46 pm

     Yep… it’s a long journey.

     I’m solidly middle-aged and stubbornly leftist these days. But up until my late 20s I was a raving warmongering fascist. If I could travel back and meet that version of me… I would probably want to smack him.

250. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 9:00 pm

     My father told me when I was 16 that it was not my job to always tell people they were wrong. The message was learn to listen and it was timely. I also have a wonderful girlfriend who has instilled in me the phrase “is this the hill to die for?” We learn so much as we go along though fallibility probably comes hardest. The insecurities of adolescence take a while to shake off.

251. Adrianne HaddowNovember 28, 2015 at 9:05 pm

     I guess the great thing about kids like Katrina is that they are alert, interested and capable of learning. I was a pontificating horror to my parents and family when I discovered Marx’s works, and the machinations of world politics and power in my history studies.

     We just need to win them away from the dark side.

     Come over to the light ……….

252. Kaye LeeNovember 28, 2015 at 9:52 pm

     There have been certain people in history whose words must always be remembered. One such person is Martin Luther King, Jr.

     “I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality… I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word.”

     “We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”

     “Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”

     “Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”

     “The function of education is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically. Intelligence plus character – that is the goal of true education.”

     “Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”

253. Miriam PossitaniNovember 29, 2015 at 1:48 am

     I must say I found young Katrina to be an articulate young woman who openly expressed her views , tried valiantly to respond to questions and was up front in her opinions and gave us a glimpse into the views and world of at least one youth
     I note the celebratory comments when she said she would not be back and think you should feel some shame
     She pointed out horrors and was told “but it didn’t happen here, she wrote about 5000 words and the best one genius could do was come up with “Katrina Logan is a Bogan. She can’t even spell “illiterate”!!!
     She got verballed over Female Genital Mutilation and when she pointed this out, not even a correction ,she pointed out the atrocities of radical Islam world wide but got the response “Katrina…you live in AUSTRALIA” and on her saying she wouldn’t be back got “Well that was easier than expected…”
     I hope the little clique are happy that they chased off a bright young woman
     I note another article “strength in diversity “, obviously not diversity of opinion
     Do a bit more backslapping and group hugs to celebrate your victory
     She was right you know when she said sites like this offered nothing to the younger generations
     just a comfort blanket for tired old lefties .
     Enjoy your little victory , cheers {or is that 3 cheers }

254. Miriam EnglishNovember 29, 2015 at 1:59 am

     He certainly was a smart man, that MLK Jr.

     I should buzz off too as I’ve been neglecting my writing. I have a story to finish. Cheers everybody. (Ummm not those kind of cheers.)

255. silkwormNovember 29, 2015 at 2:00 am

     Miriam Possitani, you are obviously a Reclaimer.

     1. What are you trying to reclaim? and
     2. Why don’t you condemn the thuggery associated with your movement? and
     3. Why don’t you condemn neo-Nazis coming to your rallies?

     Take your time.

256. Miriam PossitaniNovember 29, 2015 at 8:41 am

     1I am not a Reclaimer
     I find their actions appalling and have said so on other sites {IA included}
     I live in NZ, {no Reclaim }
     That said, it doesn’t change my opinion of the attack dog gang mentality you and others displayed
     You seem very quick to jump to conclusions .
     Why is that ? to justify attacks

257. Kaye LeeNovember 29, 2015 at 8:55 am

     “She got verballed over Female Genital Mutilation and when she pointed this out, not even a correction”

     What a load of hogwash.

     When asked what she was trying to reclaim and how her life has changed Katrina listed a whole host of atrocities committed around the world. I was pointing out that these are not the exclusive domain of Muslims, that culture plays a part, and that they are not relevant to Australia. You can’t Reclaim Australia from people who live in Afghanistan or the Middle East. You can’t judge Australian Muslims by the actions of a few nutters half a world away. Muslims here are no more responsible for IS than Katrina is for the actions of the UPF.

258. corvus boreusNovember 29, 2015 at 8:56 am

     Miriam Possitani,
     Kudos to the positive aspects of Katrina Logan, and ‘boo’ to people making narky personal remarks that hurt her feelings.

     However, the fact remains that she came to a post about ‘we claim straya’, identified herself as aligned with and actively recruiting for that group, then refused to address, or even acknowledge, the very serious issues of strong representation of political and religious extremism that exists within both the manifesto and ranks of that organisation.
     Katrina branded her banner of standard with the ‘Reclaim’ logo. If she cannot defend it, she shouldn’t wave it around.

     I hope (especially for her mothers sake), that Katrina’s seemingly reactive and cursory flirtation with a group operating as a front for the political aims of fundies and fascists is a brief pre-adult phase, and leaves no deep scars or wounds on her life.

259. Miriam EnglishNovember 29, 2015 at 9:02 am

     silkworm, it didn’t seem obvious to me.

     Before I go, I woke this morning thinking more about causes and solutions. (Thanks Kaye.)

     All religions are dangerous, though it must be admitted that Islam is particularly so. The Koran is full of anger and violence, advocating grisly death throughout its pages (a bit like Christianity’s repulsive Old Testament). Despite this, most Muslims (like most Christians) manage to overlook the nastiness and see the good in the Koran, and as with all religions, there’s lots of good too. Some people though, become radicalised and want to actualise the nasty parts of the Koran. As the Koran was dictated by an illiterate warlord in humanity’s infancy it has little relevance to modern, 21st Century, tolerant society. I mention that he was illiterate, not to demean him, but to point out that he had little exposure to the extensive philosophies and knowledge of the day, which explains why his attempts to bring peace were so often cruel and counterproductive. He must have been a smart guy though, as some of his exhortations show. Take, for example, the command not to worship any images of him. He’d obviously seen how many religions degenerate into idolatry because people have this amazing tendency to mistake a symbol for the thing it represents. Unfortunately he didn’t pick his words carefully enough because his followers now think his image is so holy that they think drawing it is worth killing over, completely destroying his original intention.

     So, a small number of Muslims cherry-pick the violence and cruelty that is in the Koran and wish to apply it to the world. Why would they wish to do this? Plenty of Muslims cherry-pick the nice bits about feeding and looking after the poor, orphans, and widows, being good and honest to your neighbors, and living peacefully with people of other religions. Why would a small number focus on the bad bits?

     • The bad bits are there and they are emphasised often in the Koran. It is easier to take them seriously than it is in most other religions.

     • Poverty, disenfranchisement, and adversity tend to make some people, especially young males, want to fight back. If their manual for fighting back is the Koran then that means big trouble.

     • The tribal nature of people makes them want to see themselves as part of a group. This can be amplified by adversity. If they see some people fighting a petty war against the most powerful nations (including Australia) to install the rule of the Koran then they can see part of their own tribe as heroically under attack and come to their aid. It’s not evil. It’s actually a noble goal… or it would be if they were not bound together by religious extremism.

     Is there a solution to any of this?

     There is a worldwide movement among moderate Muslims to do to the Koran what was done to the Bible. That is, they want to excuse the bad bits of the Koran as understandably bound to the time they were created, but no longer relevant to the time we live in. If Muhammad was alive today, I think he would favor this. Much of the Koran is about peace and justice. Peace is easier now and justice has changed for the better as humanity has become more gentle. I don’t think this will ever be 100% effective because the nasty passages will always be there for anybody to see and take to heart, just as extremist Christians see similar passages in the Bible and think it excuses making gays or women second-class citizens.

     Those most at risk of radicalisation need to be included in our society. Sidelining them and making them feel they will never be included in our society gives them the best reason to fall into the welcoming arms of their violent brothers. We need to give them a reason to feel involved in tolerant society and something to gain by it.

     But, of course, to do that we need a tolerant society. The crazy, violent, religious extremist, Tony Abbott successfully inflamed anti-Muslim xenophobia, which has made tolerance much more difficult. He and other religious extremists like Pauline Hanson and the true believers of hardline capitalism have been damaging our tolerant society pitting its people against each other.

     We humans are dangerous animals. Xenophobia always lurks under the surface no matter how cultured and sophisticated we are, and it doesn’t take much for it to escape. Putting it back into the box is much, much harder than not letting it out in the first place. But now it is out and feeding gleefully on people’s emotions. We’re going to have to work very hard to control it again and bring back tolerance. Unfortunately, our stupid, illegal misadventures in the Muslim world with our military fighting against, and being responsible for, countless Muslim deaths has made us a logical target. Curse the warmongering idiots who pulled us all into that! And when we are attacked (and the levels of hate stirred up by xenophobes has pretty-much guaranteed we will be) we’ll have to respond without overreacting (yeah, good luck with that). But we must control it or we risk spiralling into a bloody war, completely out of control. It has happened before.

     It is a mere baby-step from where we are now to another World War. And if it happens the blame will rest on two things: religious extremism (Christian, Muslim, Capitalist), and our inability to control our xenophobia.

     I wish we could just focus our fear on climate destabilisation instead of each other. [sigh]

260. Miriam PossitaniNovember 29, 2015 at 9:41 am

     S WORM
     My original comment was
     ” find she is an intelligent brave young woman with the vigor of youth, regardless of whether I agree with her or not”
     I was not surprised by the “You are a Reclaimer rant ”
     It seems I ddidn’t 100% agree with you, so I must be eh ?
     I was put off by the celebratory
     Katrina Logan is a Bogan. She can’t even spell “illiterate”!!! and the “Well that was easier than expected…”
     In getting rid of the “problem”
     That sounded more like a Reclaimers rally, driving off any opposition
     But hey, whats it matter, the clique got their way and probably feel a warm inner glow at running of a frank, intelligent young woman, something lacking on this site from what I see ,

261. Adrianne HaddowNovember 29, 2015 at 9:59 am

     @ Miriam Possitani.

     Living in NZ, you may not be aware of the aggressive style of the Reclaim movement that has been given tacit approval by a government whose main aim is creating division in a previously, relatively harmonious society.

     This has been a key strategy time and again throughout this right wing government’s tenure.

     In trying to adapt and change legislation that effects the lives and prospects of ordinary citizens and their futures, the Lib/Nat government has tried turning the population against old people, unemployed people, young people, asylum seekers, environmental groups, the indigenous people who live in remote communities, indeed anybody who is not them and the rich sections of society who benefit from the selling off of our public assets, seaports, farming land and natural resources.

     While the social cohesion of Australia is ripped apart by hate groups, our way of life and rights as citizens are being eroded in the interests of global corporations and their wealth creation, and we as a people are too busy fighting each other because we dress differently, hold different beliefs and have different ethnic backgrounds.

     We speak volumes about the need to de-radicalise members of the Muslim population but turn a blind eye to the radicalisation of young and not so young Australians by fundamentalist Christians and neo Nazis.

     Katrina did a worthy job of upholding her views but they were gleaned from reports that came from countries other than Australia, and experiences and conditions that do not exist in Australia.
     We cannot live in fear of our neighbours and express hatred toward them without falling into the situation that groups like IS and UPF want and profit from.

262. MickNovember 29, 2015 at 10:17 am

     It does make me wonder.

     Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini (sorry to invoke the stereotypical baddies, but considering the situation… ) prior to seizing power, and afterwards, all used hired goons to terrorise and inflame matters on the streets without publicly declaring their connections.

     I really wonder what background connections we have here, if any. Is this just a group of people with concordant views, or are we watching hired goons? If so by who?

     It won’t be ‘The government’. That’s too easy. It would be (and I have to stress that it really may not be) a certain clique within or outside forces. Similar to colour revolution strategy. This latter seems most likely of my admittedly conspiratorial wonderings. Outside backing, with local “inside” assistance, and a supposedly grassroots leader.

     I have no proof, and am only discussing a possible scenario, but there are precedents. It is not impossible.

263. Miriam PossitaniNovember 29, 2015 at 10:25 am

     Kaye Lee. I didn’t keep up with ongoing comments yesterday but read them all last night
     Katrina listed an ABC report from a former radical Muslim saying Australia was a matter of time ,
     She listed atrocities of almost 500 school girls kidnapped, of ISIS in Afghanistan and 9 other countries ,
     of ISIS women in Britain , of the radicalisation of Jihadis of 3 year olds being taught Jihad and about evil infidels and basically how radical Islam is a global problem and threat , with video evidence
     And your response ?
     FGM ? something not even raised by her ,
     Where was your outrage at the kidnapped schoolgirls , the fool eating the heart of a victim ,any of the points she raised and BBC documentaries listed .
     My take was this is whats happening and almost certainly could happen here ,
     Where was your acknowledgement of even a “poor schoolgirls ”
     No it was its not happening here, don’t worry and lets talk about FGM , don’t worry about all the rest
     Radical islam is a global problem , not just a “it’s not here “lets skip over it
     And then the clique celebrated her departure
     I am concerned that a smart young woman is lost to this forum, whether you agree with her or not and the status quo are comfortably ensconced

264. Michael TaylorNovember 29, 2015 at 10:43 am

     I think radical Islam is a problem, but so is radical Christianity. Nobody seems to have a problem with the latter. Sure, it’s not the radical Christians blowing up planes around the world, but they appear to be the ones acting alone when they open fire in schools in America or recently somewhere in Norway.

     I generally don’t like religion, full stop.

265. Michael TaylorNovember 29, 2015 at 10:47 am

     Miriam, one of your comments had been caught up by the spam filter, in case you was wondering what happened to it. It has now been cleared and sits in its rightful place in the comments above.

     Our apologies for that. It’s just one of those things that happens from time to time.

266. mars08November 29, 2015 at 10:49 am

     Curse my sledgehammer sarcasm!

267. MickNovember 29, 2015 at 10:51 am

     We did celebrate her departure, we discussed it.

     No one in this forum has denied the events that Katrina posted are horrific. But then Katrina did not respond to some of the questions put to her either. She called everyone here blinkered.

     I personally do feel that ISIS is a threat. But I don’t believe Reclaim or UPF are a tonic. I believe they are salt in the wound, and at times they are the weapon that makes the wound itself. If they they drive peaceful Muslims in this country to desperation or hate, then they will drive them to ISIS’s gates and drop them off with ribbons on.

     Katrina was not wasted here.

     I personally tried to engage with her, and while she did respond, I don’t think she wants to hear anything but what her passion is telling her. She sounds like she has had some abuse from people and it has made her sensitive to attrocities around the world that are being committed by fundamentalists who appropriate Islam for their own purposes. No doubt even the leaders of ISIS themselves are victims of abuse, as their abusers too were victims of abuse.

     But, and there was obviously going to be a big but, she does not seem able, yet, to see attrocities or even abuse committed by anyone else other than a Muslim. She is not alone in this. This is a human trait. So, let’s ask a few generalised questions about the responses or lack thereof from Reclaim and UPF.

     When the Americans bombed Medicin Sans Frontiers recently, where was the outcry? When weddings and and villages of innocent people are blown back to the stone age, do the “patriots” feel upset? When the women and girl children that they proclaim to want to save from Islam are attacked and abused on the streets of Australia, are they condemning it? If they are so upset about pedophilia, why aren’t they running campaigns to shut down Salvation Army Headquarters, or Catholic schools and churches?

     These are the kind of discussions we are trying to have here, and of which Katrina the 18 year old recruiter for Reclaim took part in. Yes it got heated. But it also went nowhere, and it is not Kaye Lee or Katrina’s fault. It is just a moment in a tumultuous time and as far as I can tell they both feel they are trying to the right thing.

268. MickNovember 29, 2015 at 10:58 am

     Oops, I meant we DIDN’T celebrate her departure…damn, that sounded bad.

     It is always a relief when a fight is over, if only for the space to reflect. I for one am worried about her. I hope that she travels and sees more of this world than the Hunter and the Illawarra. I hope she studies a history and a little comparative religion and a little of the contributions of people of other religions or lack thereof to humanity. I wish her all the best.

269. Kaye LeeNovember 29, 2015 at 11:13 am

     Miriam, you are very selective. You completely ignore things that don’t fit your narrative of what went on. You ignored the many encouraging remarks made to Katrina and the appreciation of her interest and involvement. You selectively choose phrases without considering the context or intent as in the FGM remark which I have already explained (which you also chose to ignore).

     This article is about the group Reclaim Australia. Of course there are atrocities committed around the world. As I pointed out, some governments use beheading. We have laws here that do not allow any of those practices so bringing them up is irrelevant to our situation in Australia. Of course there could be lone wolf attacks here but the best way to avoid that is by including the Muslim community rather than protesting their very existence and to help all young people to feel like they are valued members of our society.

270. mars08November 29, 2015 at 11:42 am

     Michael Taylor:

     I think radical Islam is a problem, but so is radical Christianity…

     I am so disappointed that you chose to go with this false equivalence. It’s bogus. It’s ethnocentric… and I seriously doubt that the people in the Middle East see it that way.

     How about a comparison between militant Islam and western governments democratically elected by free, educated, informed, (mostly) secular citizens?

     These governments supported the destabilisation of Afghan president Nur Mohammad Taraki in the 70s… hoping to ensnare the USSR in it’s own Vietnam war. The aim was to bleed the Soviets dry. The result was a slaughterhouse in Afghanistan and the promotion of groups like al-Qaeda.

     Democratically elected governments instituted or condoned inhumane sanctions against Iraq which caused the preventable death of half-a-million children under 5 years old. Children! Under 5! Half-a-million. The sanctions also devastated Iraqi society, the constant aerial bombing demolished it’s infrastructure. And that was BEFORE the glorious “shock and awe” attack and the power vacuum that followed.

     Democratically elected governments have a history of protecting or installing cruel, incompetent tyrants is the region. Popular, secular, reformist leaders have been deposed if they were seen as not being sufficiently compliant to western interests.

     Western governments democratically elected by free, educated, informed, (mostly) secular citizens provided weapons and training to Islamist groups in Syria and inflamed the civil war.

     Democratically elected governments played their part in extinguishing the secular, populist Arab Spring movement in Egypt. And, when it looked like getting a second wind… supported it’s obliteration because the Muslim Brotherhood as gaining too much influence.

     Democratically elected governments launch drone strikes which can kill, dismember and dismember people without warning. The people in those regions are terrorised (!!!) by the sounds of the machines overhead.

     And I won’t even go into the Israel fiasco, the ongoing support for Saudi military aggression in Yemen, or the silence at Turkish actions against the Kurds.

     Sorry Michael, but trying imagining that radical Islam is a counter to radical Christianity, is simply ridiculous. No doubt radical Christianity playes a part in the current madness, but it is not the main driving force. To frame the RA movement as part of a purely sectarian/cultural conflict simply plays into their delusions.

271. Miriam PossitaniNovember 29, 2015 at 12:14 pm

     Kaye Lee, hang on there .
     I do not support the young womans ideals but I do respect her honesty, her willingness to explain her position and her forthright answers , and all done in a relatively civil way .
     I had the luxury of reading the whole timeline up till this morning in one go .
     Go back and look , people questioned her, she gave forthright answers, but rather than acknowledge her answers or even discuss them they moved right along with their preconceived notions .
     The thrust of her message encapsulated , was she felt radical Islam was a world wide problem with every likelyhood of extending to OZ.
     Her fears were borne out by the former terrorist, as reported on ABC yesterday .
     I think you will find if you read back most skipped her answers just to go on to another question
     The childishness did not come from the “child ‘ but the “Katrina the Bogan can’t spell” and “well that was easy {getting rid of her ”
     There was an opportunity to see where this young person was coming from and an opportunity for s oldies to better understand the young generation, as she had spelt out other passionate issues about

272. Michael TaylorNovember 29, 2015 at 12:40 pm

     Mars08, my last comment summed it up, that I don’t like any religion. I could have just left it at that without saying anything else.

273. Michael TaylorNovember 29, 2015 at 12:44 pm

     PS, and it wasn’t meant to be used as a counter argument.

     By the way, my mother’s family was from the Middle East. I knew how she and her family (now all departed) used to think. They were very similar to me – none of them were interested in religion.

274. diannaartNovember 29, 2015 at 12:45 pm

     @mars08

     I interpreted Michael’s comparison of fundamentalist Christianity and Islam as being as bad as each other and equally counter productive – not that radical Christianity could act as a solution to radical Islam – these extremes are on the same side of the coin. Hence his closing statement on all religions.

     @Miriam Possitani

     I fully agree that some here owe Katrina an apology for such puerile comments as ‘Logan is a Bogan’ & ‘easy that was easy’ (to get rid of her) – not all of us can support such school yard behaviour. I do not – Silkworm, mars08.

     That said, I agree with Kaye Lee that we were questioning Katrina to discern what she believed Australia needed reclaiming from. That she fears what is happening in other parts of the world is understandable, however, Katrina needs to question whether blaming a small percentage of the population for atrocities in the Middle East and elsewhere is reasonable behaviour. Is it fair to demonise innocent Muslim Australians for the behaviour of radical Muslims? Do we blame all Christians every time some radical machine guns an abortion clinic or the extremes of the Ku Klux Klan or … so many horrors committed in the name of Christianity:

     http://www.salon.com/2013/08/03/the_10_worst_examples_of_christian_or_far_right_terrorism_partner/

     I am still waiting to hear what Katrina believes she is reclaiming Australia from – or is she reacting in fear to something she believes may yet occur in Australia?

     If the latter, then I would simply ask that Katrina question Reclaim Australia as much as she questions a bunch of old lefties.

275. mars08November 29, 2015 at 12:46 pm

     @Miriam Possitani… you seem to be new here, so I guess you’ve not encountered my arid sarcasm before. If you read my comments after “that was easy” you might notice that I had no animosity towards Katrina. In fact, I hope that there are many more people in RA like her… as opposed to the aggressive, braindead knuckle-draggers we see in them media.

276. diannaartNovember 29, 2015 at 12:58 pm

     All true Miriam, mars08 has a particularly parched sense of sarcasm. To the new arrivals – you were not to know and nor was Katrina and sometimes, this sarcasm doesn’t quite work.

     Mea culpa – I cannot claim that everything I wrote is as clear as a crystal in snow either.

277. mars08November 29, 2015 at 1:00 pm

     @diannaart… my major concern about Michael’s comment is that it seems to reinforce the narrative that we are faced with a clash of faiths, values, and/or cultures. That’s the sort of mindless, simplistic crap that RA wants us to believe. It’s the sort of rubbish that Newscorpse scatters around the English-speaking world. Radical Islam is not engaged in a battle with radical Christianity.

     And that’s how I assume you interpreted Michael’s comment. Maybe you’re right. These days I’m very touchy about anyhing that seems to advance the hysterical, narrow-minded narrative of groups such as RA.

278. Michael TaylorNovember 29, 2015 at 1:21 pm

     Mars08, that’s absolute crap that I’ve reinforced the narrative the idiots wants us to spread.

     Bloody hell, no wonder I hate religion, which is my point.

279. Michael TaylorNovember 29, 2015 at 1:26 pm

     There’s an old saying: never argue about religion or politics.

     In future I’ll just stick to politics.

280. mars08November 29, 2015 at 1:48 pm

     My apologies Michael… like I said, I’m very touchy about the subject. I believe that RA supporters will grab at any straw to reinforce their delusions.

     I have to wonder, if they are so eager to tag Islam as barbaric, based on the deeds of a few twisted people who identify themselves as Muslims… how do they justify the atrocities committed by democratically elected governments… and presumably with the consent of their citizens.?

     Again, my sincere apologies Michael. I was unfair in my criticism of your comment.

281. Miriam EnglishNovember 29, 2015 at 2:07 pm

     Damn! I shouldn’t have peeked. I’ll never get my story finished at this rate. 🙂

     Mars08, do you really think Howard had the majority on his side when he unilaterally committed us to war in Iraq? I was one of perhaps a couple of hundred thousand who marched in protest in Melbourne at the time. I have never seen so many people in one place. I’ll venture the majority of Australians were against war, yet he just went ahead and did it anyway. What amazed me was that everybody was so dispirited by the futility of such a massive protest it all just withered away.

     Do you really think Bush junior was democratically elected? There was widespread, open, fiddling of the vote, and not just in Florida, but the use of electronic voting machines made it really easy to swindle USA out of their votes, along with sneaky actions like disenfranchising black voters, and opening the polling stations as times that made it difficult or impossible for low-wage workers to get to them, and misinforming people in Democrat-held areas of the dates and locations of polling booths. They used all the tricks of third-world dictatorships to mess with the vote, including beating people up who would vote democrat.

     Even in Australia we have voting fraud, with cemeteries of people and herds of cattle voting, not to mention Howard’s attempt to stop youths voting. The ID card voting in Queensland recently was another attempt to restrict the vote.

     Democracy is in danger becoming a standing joke. It already is in USA. Much of it is here in Australia too, as is evidenced by the overwhelming support by the majority of Australians for marriage equality, yet its denial by our “democratic” government.

282. mars08November 29, 2015 at 2:24 pm

     @Miriam English… I think I see where I went wrong.

     Rather than “… presumably with the consent of their citizens” I should have said “theoretically”

     That would have made more sense, right?

     Now… no more peeking and get back to your story

283. Michael TaylorNovember 29, 2015 at 2:27 pm

     No worries mars08. Deep down I always assumed that you’d misunderstood what I said.

     It’s all good. I’m fine with it. 🙂

284. corvus boreusNovember 29, 2015 at 2:28 pm

     Mars 08,
     Perhaps more “ostensibly”.

285. MickNovember 29, 2015 at 2:31 pm

     Perhaps, “without”

286. mars08November 29, 2015 at 2:31 pm

     cb… you can be so pedantic. Oh wait! Is “pedantic” the right word?

287. corvus boreusNovember 29, 2015 at 2:35 pm

     mars 08.
     I deny charges of pedantry, but admit guilt to picky precision.
     It is this thing I have about using appropriate words to accurately convey meaning, so people do not misconstrue or take unintended offense.

288. mars08November 29, 2015 at 2:44 pm

     Explanation excepted

289. corvus boreusNovember 29, 2015 at 2:57 pm

     Acceptional exceptance.

290. mars08November 29, 2015 at 11:19 pm

     And what do RA make of young non-Muslims who convert to Islam as a means of going to support ISIS? Did they embrace the religion because it is inherently aggressive or imperialist? Or did they convert because they already had social problems and baggage they couldn’t deal with? Surely a young Christian would have no motivation to answer the call of radical Islam if all was fine in their lives.

     These people might be looking for relief from their isolation, legitimacy for their anger, a purpose to their lives… or any number of things. In times of grief or helplessness some isolated people turn to drugs, some turn to religion, some turn to suicide. The mythology surrounding ISIS covers at least two of those options.

     One thing for certain, RA isn’t interested in nuance. Bigotry is much more black and white… or brown.

291. John MaycockNovember 30, 2015 at 7:40 am

     Cop it on the chin, some of you on here railroaded the young woman Katrina and you seem bloody proud to have shut down any opposition to your already entrenched views .
     It was clear from all her statements that she was pointing out, quite rightly that Radical Islam is a global problem and Australia is not immune .
     We have had death here already and Australians killed overseas already by these fanatical worshippers of a mythical prophet .Which one of you would go on a Middle eastern holiday with your family ?
     And the “but islamics in Australia are only 2.2%} Then why so much influence ?
     THE Australian Army is removing the motto “In this sign conquer” from the 102-year-old hat badges of army chaplains because it is offensive to Muslims.
     The move comes after an imam approved by the Grand Mufti was appointed to join the ­Religious Advisory Committee to the Services in June. and some are saying , why not ? where was your concern in the last 101 years , If we need an Islamic advisor why not a Scientology advisor, or a UFOlogy councillor or an Elder for Dreamtime , the last 2 have way more followers than 2,2%
     .
     I personally would have liked to heard her views on CC and CSG that she expressed concern about or her involvement in Anonymous and their fight with ISIS . You stopped that

292. Matters NotNovember 30, 2015 at 8:07 am

     by these fanatical worshippers of a mythical prophet .

     Wrong! And at so many levels. The prophet in question is Muhammad (spelling varies). He existed. He wasn’t ‘mythical’. He is not ‘worshipped’. (The lack of understanding is breathtaking). The only one worshipped is Allah (the equivalent of the Christian ‘God’) .

     As I expected, ignorance abounds.

293. John MaycockNovember 30, 2015 at 8:50 am

     You were right , I was wrong
     See how easy it is to admit your mistakes [a lesson for some here}
     As an atheist , they are all followers of myths but how could I have got it so wrong when they are forever screaming Allah Akbah as the behead, slaughter and carry out their obscene actions all in the name of a sick religion
     The fanatical brutal and repressive followers of a mythical Allah here in Australia and abroad
     Hope that makes your day

294. MickNovember 30, 2015 at 9:01 am

     A couple of people on here were rude. It is true.

     Radical Islam is a global problem is true. The people living in the most horrifying examples of this problem are mostly MUSLIMS. It is true

     The most people decapitated are MUSLIMS. It is true.

     The Kurdish Peshmerga are majority MUSLIM and they are the main group with boots on the ground.

     How does chanting “NO MORE MOSQUES” help at all.

     As I asked on here, why is there no concerted effort to demand that there be “NO MORE CHURCHES” or picket lines out the front of the local op-shop, “NO MORE SALVATION ARMY HOMELESS SHELTERS”. They are both implicated in cases of mass-pedophilia.

     About the removal of “in this sign conquer.” Do you see any other potential reasons why such an imperialistic motto may have been inappropriate in our modern army. Perhaps the Mufti is just a part of a greater pluralistic movement to see to it that Australia does not continue to see itself as a sub-branch of Empires? Maybe, a lot of people in this country don’t want to conquer anybody. This is not Friday night football we’re talking about. This is war. It’s consequences are complicated, horrible and inter-generational.

     Some traditions in this country have roots in terrible parts of our history. I mean, we had a national anthem with the original lyrics of “GOD SAVE THE QUEEN” It had been in use for many years until some pesky democratic process came and fixed that.

     “Advance Australia Fair” itself was changed because it’s original lyrics began, “Australian sons let us rejoice for we are young and free”

     (WARNING: SARCASM ALERT)

     Apparently it was too honest for our political tastes, so they changed it. I bet it was some bloody gay abo muslim greenie responsible for that one too. What’s a privileged white man to do in these days constant media harassment and exclusion from the halls of power.

     (BREATHE CALMLY, SARCASM OVER)

     Now as for Katrina, different people on here took different approaches. I personally tried putting this into a context that she, as a younger person than I, may not have memories of, or had the chance to experience. I tried to put in context of the effects of trauma.

     And. Anonymous. Do you know why people like her have suddenly taken on Anonymous as something to do? Because they have declared war on ISIS. It is a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I sincerely doubt, though I may be wrong, that the activist would be joining RECLAIM movements. I mean RECLAIM and UPF, they are essentially mirroring the concepts of ISIS anyway. Taking back what was never theirs to implement a fundamentalist system that claims religious and social incompatibility with others and feels the need to make threaten others to achieve it. I might just send them an email and ask them to publicly shut down UPF’s website.

     When Jack van Tongeren and the ANW were fire bombing Chinese restauraunts, they were listed by ASIO as a terror group, the only terror group at the time to be carrying out attacks on Australian soil. Western Australia demanded he leave, so he moved over East. But, where was the national outcry. He threatened to kill the WA Attorney-General, and verbally attacked “all MPs who actively support Asianisation and multiracialism and the destruction of our Australian constitution and Aussie way of life”. Those words have a ring of familiarity, don’t they?

     His current website is about his art and, except in veiled references which seem to distance himself from it, he does not mention his history as a proud and violently active leader of White Supremacist and Neo-Nazi Terror organizations.

     Let’s hope UPF and Reclaim find some peace in their lives. Maybe we can drag Jack out of hiding and ask him to explain his journey.

295. corvus boreusNovember 30, 2015 at 9:11 am

     John Maycock,
     Perhaps you, as another who has enthusiastically endorsed ‘we claim straya’, will be willing to do what Katrina would not, which is address the strong influence of both zealous religious bigotry (eg Rise Up Australia) and militant right-wing extremism (eg UPF) in the ‘reclaim’ manifesto and membership ranks.

     That would then allow for an unreserved consideration of your input into rational and reasonable discussion of wider subjects.

296. Matters NotNovember 30, 2015 at 9:15 am

     The Kurdish Peshmerga are majority MUSLIM and they are the main group with boots on the ground.

     One could go deeper and point out that the Kurds in question are majority Sunni Muslim and they are fighting ISIL which is also Sunni Muslim.

297. MickNovember 30, 2015 at 9:20 am

     Well, exactly. What I might add, were I so inclined, which I’m not sure that I am, but I might, is that one might argue, should one feel inclined, that ISILISISISDAESH are from a much, much rarer sub-sect of a sub-sect of Sunni Islam known as Psychopaths.

298. MickNovember 30, 2015 at 9:30 am

     http://catallaxyfiles.com/files/2014/10/Freedom-security-trade-off.jpg

299. MickNovember 30, 2015 at 9:47 am

     Unfortunately that picture came from a site I don’t particularly like, but I thought it showed said something about where the threats to our freedoms really come from but, oh, man, I feel awkward. I think I have to apologise to myself, or something, or take a shower.

300. Miriam EnglishNovember 30, 2015 at 9:56 am

     John Maycock, to be fair, Katrina was rather thin-skinned and interpreted many neutral comments as attacks. This is probably normal for fiery youth. She, and I expect most members of “Reclaim” Australia, seem to have their dials all stuck on maximum hysteria.

     It is right to be concerned about Islam (a thoroughly insane religion in a world of roughly 1,000 insane religions), but tarring all Muslims with the same brush as those nutters who want to behead people and blow stuff up is just plain wrong. It they were all dangerous then we would not be in the position we currently are; it would be infinitely worse. I’ve known many gentle, reasonable, caring Muslims who have no hate agenda.

     “Reclaim” Australia, by spreading hate and distrust, create the very problem they think they are protesting against. They make Muslim youths feel hated, fearful, and alienated and push them to identify with the dickheads in Daesh (ISIS). By creating the circumstances favorable for Muslim youths to be radicalised, “Reclaim” Australia are themselves a major security problem for Australia.

     By all means work to prevent terrorism, but do it by getting the majority of good Muslims on our side. That the just and honest way to do it, and the only way we can hope to stop terrorism. You can only win by making your enemy your friend.

     One final point: despite what the lying mainstream media would have you believe, terrorist attacks have actually been declining along with all violence for hundreds of years. Statistically, you actually have more chance of dying by falling off furniture than from a terrorist attack. I kid you not. The fear frenzy is actually far more dangerous than the attacks themselves.

     • terrorism kills about 600 people per year worldwide. (This is actually a conservative overestimate.)
     • conventional weapons (not weapons of mass destruction) kill about 500,000 people every year, mostly civilians.
     • cars kill 1.2 million
     • AIDS kills more than 3 million per year.
     • smoking kills about 5 million per year.
     • starvation kills more than 16 million every year!

     If you are worried about deaths overseas, perhaps your energies would be better directed to ending poverty-related starvation. Admittedly it doesn’t have action, drama, and stereotypical bad guys, and the weapons manufacturers can’t make billions out of it the way they can from some gruesome theatre and less than 600 dead.

301. mars08November 30, 2015 at 10:41 am

     John Maycock:

     …fanatical brutal and repressive followers of a mythical Allah…

     It must be glorious to be so pure and innocent!

     Is it so easy to condemn the 23% of the world’s population who identify as Muslims? Is it so simple to demonise well over a billion people?

     The religion is essentially evil and imperialist… apparently.

     So I wonder what John Maycock might conclude from my post on November 29 at 11:42 am? What does he say about putative secular, democratic governments who cause the preventable deaths on 500,000 children under 5 years old. How does he feel about democratically elected governments who knowingly turn a developing nation into a slaughterhouse to try and weaken a rival? How does John Maycock feel about freely elected leaders launching an illegal, contrived needles war of aggression and the chaos that followed? What does RA think about the armed forces of a democratic nation knowingly targeting, killing, dismembering and wounding innocent people using “signature” drone strikes?

     Do the leaders of the nations responsible for those atrocities (or citizens those who gave their consent) also earn the evil, brutal or repressive tags? Why aren’t those people seen as fanatical?

302. diannaartNovember 30, 2015 at 10:49 am

     Excellent argument, ME, use of facts to establish where problems really exist – exactly what I have come to expect…. the majority of we AIMers have attempted to present reasoned argument, as is our wont.

     Reason and facts don’t sway those fixed in a belief system (or a range of belief systems) such as climate change deniers – no amount of coral bleaching, exceptionally increased extreme weather will convince them that continuing to pollute is a dumb idea. Any more than laying out the awful truth that 16 million children, women & men die of starvation every year.

     As for those for whom maintaining the ignorance keeps them in the luxury to which they believe they are entitled, Reclaim is just further noise to drown out any cries of inequity, inhumanity or greed.

     Not so long ago we blamed witches (AKA women) for any ill, now we blame a single religion – I would feel we were making progress if we could extend that blame to the manipulating tactics of ALL religions, even so, inciting further hatred is not and has never been the answer, however, we big-brained primates appear wired to repeat our sorry history of violence.

303. mars08November 30, 2015 at 11:17 am

     @diannaart… brilliant comment. Far too many people are stubbornly remaining blind to the real threats facing the human race.

     If there’s one thing I’d change about your post, it’s in the final para. Rather than “the manipulating tactics of ALL religions” I’d prefer that we remained alert to the manipulating tactics of ALL faiths. In particular we must protect ourselves from the seductive, dangerous, powerful faith that crosses all religious boundaries… militant capitalism.

304. diannaartNovember 30, 2015 at 11:23 am

     Well spotted mars08.

     I was about to write ‘the manipulating tactics of all ideologies’ – given that ANY belief system which persists in being immutable when circumstances change is a dead end – in every sense…. I guess this is why one of the first victims of any closed belief system is the freedom to question everything.

305. mars08November 30, 2015 at 11:54 am

     Exactly… I fear that established religions have become the easy and obvious target for many of the world’s ills. That’s the angle used by the right AND the left. And, no doubt, religion is far from blameless. But, by fixing our focus on religion… the ruling class has ensured that it’s dirty deeds go mostly unexamined.

     Worse still, these same “dirty deeds” contribute to the economic and social conditions which feed religious extremism.

306. diannaartNovember 30, 2015 at 12:47 pm

     Indeed, there is so much that Reclaim could reclaim, such as the right of children to a safe secure home, education instead of being trapped indefinitely in concentration camps, or the right to accountability by our government business leaders – put an end to ‘operational matter’ excuses, or the right for public schools to freedom FROM religion. Or a media free to print facts instead of convenient fiction.

     Reclaim are doing a great job of shifting the public focus from those who continue, without pause, to accumulate power and wealth.

307. mars08November 30, 2015 at 1:26 pm

     GW Bush and his mob managed to achieve the same thing for a few years after the Sept 11 attacks. Back then it was “…they hate us for our freedoms”. And the American people (and many many Australians) bought it for a while. It was a facile, mindless answer that people were willing and eager to except. Eventually though, the glib line started to wear thin. Certainly the GFC forced many Americans to learn the hard way. Suddenly some people started to focus on what was REALLY happening to their country while the politicians were screeching about anthrax and “dirty” bombs.

     Seems those lessons have been forgotten.

308. diannaartNovember 30, 2015 at 1:38 pm

     Seems we are forever doomed to repeat our mistakes; we don’t learn from prevention – the concerted action taken across the globe to reduce CFC’s destroying the ozone layer (and ozone layer still in jeopardy) the action taken by Labor to mitigate the worst of the GFC – seems prevention winds up in the collective subconscious as something that wasn’t going to happen anyway.

     Sigh.

     As for demonstrable disasters – effect on ground water by fracking, deaths caused by pollution, the cause of mudslides where forests have been ripped from the earth and on and on we see cause and effect, yet anyone with the temerity to point out this bleeding obvious stupidity are labelled as loons or worse.

     Thanks for the chat – now to convince the immutable

309. mars08November 30, 2015 at 2:58 pm

     Consider that we have a generation of young people, leaving high school, who were toddlers at the time of the Sept 11 attacks. These children have no direct memories of the world before the “global war on terror”. They have no personal experience of the misinformation spread at that time. They can be easily influenced by the mythology created in the past 15 years.

     I believe that Katrina is a product of that information management. No doubt there would be some Muslim kids who have absorbed a different version of the story.

310. kathysutherland2013November 30, 2015 at 3:12 pm

     @dianaart and mars08 – I would use the word “extreme” when talking about religions/belief systems/ideologies. I know many devout Christians who are moderate, well-balanced and deplore the excesses committed in the name of their faith, for example, the Ku Klux Klan, and who are angry at so-called Christians who use their faith as a cover for just about everything (like Tony Abbott.) I know many Muslims who are devout and well-balanced and deplore the excesses committed in the name of their faith, for example, IS.

     I’m an atheist, but I’m not going to tell anyone what to believe or what not to believe. But I do get pissed off, to put it mildly, when people take their beliefs to extremes and feel it gives them the right to behead people, dump people in torture camps on islands etc.

     So I don’t make fun of people’s religious beliefs. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster does it for you, that’s fine by me. However, when you take the teachings of God, or Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster to such extremes that you feel it’s good to kill, burn, torture innocent people, that’s NOT fine by me. It’s putting your extreme beliefs above humanity, and that is reprehensible. It’s the extremism we need to worry about, not the faith/religion per se.

311. MickNovember 30, 2015 at 3:16 pm

     I must admit Kathy, I am filled with a morbid curiosity about how violent extremist Pastafarians would go about a Holy War.

312. diannaartNovember 30, 2015 at 3:27 pm

     The Millennium Generation have no frame of reference such as we have experienced; a time when MSM reported more than the whims of its bosses. A time when reason was valued over ‘balance’, a time when science could be presented without the distraction of gibberish/ faith/belief/ideology.

     It was a far from perfect time – particularly for women and other minorities – yet not much has changed and now we are expected to accept anything the more powerful deem necessary.

     Such as “wind turbines are ugly and require close scrutiny for ‘safety'”, whereas the many dangers of coal or nuclear waste are exempted.

     No wonder the MG’s think we talk a load of rot.

313. kathysutherland2013November 30, 2015 at 4:54 pm

     @Mick, that is, indeed, a scary picture! But the moderate ones would be OK, as long as they just prayed to the great pasta deity and didn’t expect human sacrifices.

314. MickNovember 30, 2015 at 5:12 pm

     Yeah, stay away from the bolognaise.

315. John MaycockNovember 30, 2015 at 6:39 pm

     I read earlier of mass protests being organised and what appears to be a battle royal looming over the Mt Thorley Warkworth coal mine extension in the Hunter.
     The residents have vowed to fight on using civil disobedience if necessary
     Apparently the good folk of Bulga wherever that may be intend to fight hard as their community would be decimated
     One on 4Chan and Anonymous spruiking this fight up is a Katrina Logan
     Wouldn’t it have been nice to get some first hand accounts if it happens to be the one and the same Katrina Logan so fearlessly run off from here
     diannaart

     “No wonder the MG’s think we talk a load of rot.”

     I wholeheartedly agree

316. Matters NotNovember 30, 2015 at 8:34 pm

     John Maycock, a few simple questions. Have you ever visited a mosque? In Australia? Or elsewhere? Have you ever visited a country where the majority of the population adhere to the Muslim faith? Ever been to any of the 18 nations located in the Middle East? Ever been to any Muslim nations in the Asian region?

     Put simply, is your ‘view’ of Islam based on a ‘lived’ experience or on the basis of what you have read or heard?

     By way of providing ‘info’ re Bulga, and there are any number of links that provide a history re this ongoing fight. Here’s but one.

     But the prize for gritty corporate determination should go to British-Australian giant Rio Tinto, which is still pushing for an extension of its Mount Thorley Warkworth mine into a conservation zone close to the village of Bulga, despite being twice knocked back by the NSW Land and Environment Court in the face of massive community opposition. Final hearings by the state’s Planning Assessment Commission are underway.

     BTW, Bulga is inland from Newcastle. Drive west to Singleton and then south west. If you get to Broke, then drive north west

     https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/october/1443621600/paul-cleary/coal-crash

     Not sure that Katrina Logan, a school student, is the most reliable source of info. Yes, perhaps interesting, but given her ‘understanding’ of the law and how it works ‘interesting’ should be as far as it gets.

317. Miriam EnglishNovember 30, 2015 at 8:36 pm

     John Maycock, she wasn’t run off. Geez you guys love to play the victim.

     A couple of people were a bit harsh — silkworm was rather rude (in a single post, after she’d already left), and mars08 used his dry sense of humor, which he admits was not the best choice given the situation. The rest of the people here were not insulting, even though she chose to take fairly neutral comments as personal slights. The main thing people here seemed to be guilty of, as far as Katrina was concerned, is to remain stubbornly unstampeded by her hysteria. What a terrible crime.

318. kathysutherland2013November 30, 2015 at 9:03 pm

     @ Mick, those orecchiette can get a bit tricky if taken to extremes. It’s those ears, you know!

319. John MaycockNovember 30, 2015 at 9:06 pm

     Matters Not, that’s a strange question

     Check with the editor, I am right now in the Philippines {Muslim population 10,427,319 }
     Up until the week before the Bali bombings I was in Indonesia, earlier work commitments had me in Egypt, Turkey and a brief time in Iran .
     With the state of play as it is now I want out of here, back to good old Brissie and for the life of me, none of my family, or I will set foot back in the other 4
     I have witnessed the downward spiral .
     I pose the same questions to you, have you ?

320. John MaycockNovember 30, 2015 at 9:09 pm

     Miriam English
     ” is to remain stubbornly unstampeded by her hysteria”
     What hysteria ?
     As far as I read she provided sources or video links .
     If facts are hysteria, I’m concerned

321. Matters NotNovember 30, 2015 at 9:11 pm

     Understanding Reclaim Australia requires an appreciation of the concept of ethnocentricism, defined as:

     the belief in the inherent superiority of one’s own ethnic group or culture. Or a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one’s own.

     We all ‘suffer’ from it. And while it’s impossible to avoid, the intellectual ‘limitations’ are mitigated be recognising the ‘tendency’.

322. kathysutherland2013November 30, 2015 at 9:11 pm

     Re Katrina – it’s very hard not to take things as a personal slight when you’re young. I didn’t get involved because I wasn’t sure how to react – on the one hand her comments were making me very angry; on the other hand I kept remembering the things I cam out with when I was young (a long time ago!) I did go in marches and on “demos” as we called them, when I was at uni, and I don’t think I was at all tolerant of others’ views.They were all wrong, anyway! I wasn’t willing to engage in rational debate – rationality is something that came late to me!

323. mars08November 30, 2015 at 9:18 pm

     Can’t dispute that it’s been a downward spiral….

324. Miriam EnglishNovember 30, 2015 at 9:32 pm

     John Maycock, the hysteria was in her breathless reporting of every bad thing done by Islamists somewhere overseas. Please note that I’m talking about her manner of reporting them. I don’t wish to diminish the truly evil nature of the things she was reporting.

     My point is that she appeared to be wanting to stir up ill feeling against all Muslims. That shows a loss of perspective. Most Muslims are not bad people, just as most Christians are not bad people. They both believe in lunatic religions, but they ignore the stupid bits and take to heart the good bits. I’d be happier if they all dropped their crazy beliefs in ridiculous gods and adjusted to life in reality, but that’s not gonna happen immediately (though it is happening slowly).

     In the meantime we need to enlist the help of the good and tolerant Muslim majority to prevent radicalisation of their kids. If we succumb to hysteria and make all Muslims the enemy it just worsens the problem.

325. Matters NotNovember 30, 2015 at 9:56 pm

     John Maycock, good to hear from you. You said:

     that’s a strange question

     I think I asked 6. Which one is the strange one?

     As for:

     I pose the same questions to you, have you

     Actually I have. Been to Dubai on any number of occasions both in terms of transit and also extended stays. Same with Abu Dhabi. Also been to Turkey – Istanbul, Ankara, Cappadocia, Konya and a whole host of other Turkish cities on any number of occasions. I’ll not mention the transit experiences. Also been to most countries in the Asia-Pacific region as well as most European countries … but I am not making this a ‘pissing’ contest.

     What might be more relevant, is that I make a priority to visit shrines of religious significance as I do when I visit, St Petersburg, Rome, London, Dublin and so on.

     What I want to stress that while I am an ‘atheist’, I recognise the importance of ‘religion’ in shaping our thinking.

     John we are what we are because of historical, social, cultural, religious, and the like forces.

     We do not arrive at ‘conclusions’ which are of our own making that disregard the ‘forces’ I refer to above .(BTW, how many mosques have you visited?)

     While I have only been overseas once this year and not the usual two, I accept that travel is problematic. I for example won’t travel to the US because I don’t ‘pack heat’. And never will.

     John, for me, travel encourages understanding but then again I try to have an open mind. There are many ‘ugly’ Australians I’ve met on my travels.

326. Jivek ChauhanNovember 30, 2015 at 10:05 pm

     In the last year or so, Australia has seen the emergence of The Reclaim Australia Movement; this movement has now spread to every state in Australia, since its inception it has been labelled by Politicians and Government, including Victorian Premier Andrews, as a movement of Bigots, not protestors but Bigots.
     The question arises, why has this movement emerged and spread throughout Australia, and why is the media echoing the words of the Government, and labelling the movement Racist, full of Hatred and Islamophobia.
     Does not the Government recognize the frustrated voices of Australians, who are looking for answers, who have a fear of the future for Australia?
     The Reclaim Australia Movement is not Bigoted, nor is it against immigration or a movement built on Hatred.
     The Movement endorses the Humanitarian intake of refugees, refugees who will bring with them a desire to assimilate and contribute, to the Australian way of life.
     The Reclaim Australia Movement is speaking out in frustration to the Government, they cannot differentiate between Refugees and Terrorists, and they both appear synonymous, not only to the general population, but more importantly, to Our Government Leaders.
     The voices of the movement are speaking out in protest to accepting a culture that is completely opposed to the Australian way of life.
     They are speaking out in opposition to the importation of people, whose background is based on Bigotry, Racism, Hatred, Intolerance and Anarchy, the very same accusations directed at the Reclaim Australia Movement, by the media and our Government Leaders.
     Is the Government trying to stifle the voices of the people for a reason, and is having the media on the side of the Government also a means of making the people follow the Governments line?
     No, the Australians behind the Reclaim Australia Movement, are not Racist, Bigots or consumed by Hatred, they are speaking out to the Government against the importation of people whose very world revolves around Bigotry, Hatred, Intolerance, non assimilation and Anarchy

327. mars08November 30, 2015 at 10:09 pm

     @Miriam English… and who is going to help us prevent radicalisation of OUR kids?

328. Matters NotNovember 30, 2015 at 10:12 pm

     Shit, they’re here, there and everywhere. I want to ‘reclaim’ Australia from Reclaim Australia .

329. Miriam EnglishNovember 30, 2015 at 10:17 pm

     Jivek Chauhan, while I hope that what you say does apply to some of the “Reclaim” Australia followers, but I wonder how protesting the building of a Mosque is not bigoted. Would “Reclaim” Australia protest the building of a Baptist fundamentalist church?

     Certainly some of the speakers at the “Reclaim” Australia rallies certainly have been infamous bigots who’ve gladly whipped up fear and hatred (e.g. Danny Nalliah, Pauline Hanson, and George Christensen).

330. Miriam EnglishNovember 30, 2015 at 10:23 pm

     mars08 🙂 our kids are too busy playing World of Warcraft and Eden Online, going to concerts, protesting for the Reef, and working for shit money at shit jobs to have time to be radicalised.
     [Note for the humor-impaired: that comment was not meant to be taken seriously.]

331. Miriam EnglishNovember 30, 2015 at 10:32 pm

     God! I’m never gonna get my story written if I keep peeking in here.

     I normally reread my comments aloud before posting them. It’s a useful trick for detecting errors. Missed doing that in my reply to Jivek. Oops.

332. mars08November 30, 2015 at 10:33 pm

     Is not a bad time to mention that… as of next weekend, I will be spending 15 days in Malaysia and Southern Thailand? Eeeeekkkkk… oooohhhh, gasp… aboogaboogabooga…

333. Michael TaylorNovember 30, 2015 at 10:34 pm

     “Those whose very world revolves around bigotry, hatred, intolerance”.

     I assume you’re talking about the white people who’ve come here. The first inhabitants were certainly not like that.

334. John MaycockNovember 30, 2015 at 10:36 pm

     Matters Not .
     “What I want to stress that while I am an ‘atheist’, I recognise the importance of ‘religion’ in shaping our thinking”
     I am an atheist as well and find absolutely no importance in religion, more disdain for the horrors they have created over the centuries and continue to do so .
     It is a rallying point to legitimise your abuses.
     America goes to battle “with god on their side”, as did the Nazi’s , finally aided by the Holy city to evade justice,Buddhists Killing more than 100.000 Rohingya,The early Mormons , Radical Islam killing whoever., all in their mythological “god” . the child abuse , where do I end .
     ” BTW, how many mosques have you visited?)” And why would I wish to visit any of their temples
     The architecture of some seems pretty nice , but they were built with the spoils of deception of the gullible .
     I must admit. I was tempted to sneak a peek into a Scientology thingy once, just in case Xenu was there
     And I did have a mild interest in the Cargo Cult and the “Prince Phillip is god” cult
     Nah, not my thing, the bastards cause too much trouble with their fantasies

335. mars08November 30, 2015 at 10:53 pm

     So, on the one hand… “…no importance in religion, more disdain for the horrors they have created over the centuries…”

     Immediately followed by the idea that “It is a rallying point to legitimise your abuses”

     It flows as surely as night follows broccoli. huh?

336. Matters NotNovember 30, 2015 at 11:11 pm

     find absolutely no importance in religion

     John I suspect you lack an understanding of the basic ‘principles’ which drive Western Culture.

     In many ways, John I agree with your ‘description’. But that’s the easy part. The ‘superficial’ part.

     The ‘descriptive’, accurate as it maybe, (and that’s debateable), leads nowhere in terms of ‘insights’ and therefore drivers of actions.

     We all live on this planet John and to suggest we have all the ‘answers’ whether it be in the realms of ‘metaphysics’, ‘epistemology’ or ‘axiology’ is arrogance writ large.

     I have no ‘definitive’ answers John, but I am of the view that the path you have chosen is in error.

     Reclaim Australia is a moral/ethical embarrassment. I cringe at its superficiality. Its supporters and their ill informed views. And how it effects and affects me when I travel.

337. corvus boreusNovember 30, 2015 at 11:55 pm

     Jivek Chauhan,
     Why has ‘We-claim Australia been widely and repeatedly called a movement of bigots?
     Because they have neo-nazis like Blair Cottrell (UPF) and rabid zealots like Danny Nalliah as official speakers at their rallies.
     ‘Reclaim Australia’ will remain a movement for bigots until it starts giving bigoted extremists the flick instead of the microphone.

338. MickDecember 1, 2015 at 12:06 am

     Succint and to the point. I like it.

     As for Islam’s incompatibility with Australia, it has been in this country since the camel drivers at least. Many indigenous people in central Australia took Islam as their faith without the aid of compulsory missions and stolen generations. It was more than likely here before British rule through the Macassans.

     They are responsible for kebabs for f#@%’s sake. How much more Australian can you get?

339. silkwormDecember 1, 2015 at 1:38 am

     “The Reclaim Australia Movement is not Bigoted, nor is it against immigration or a movement built on Hatred.”

     Three lies in one sentence.

340. diannaartDecember 1, 2015 at 10:05 am

     @John Maycock

     “The architecture of some seems pretty nice , but they were built with the spoils of deception of the gullible”

     Which applies to all religions – so why single out Islam?

341. MickDecember 1, 2015 at 10:09 am

     The arrogance of cynicism is stupefying.

342. mars08December 1, 2015 at 10:17 am

     @diannaart…. in fairness, John Maycock did say “… not my thing, the bastards cause too much trouble with their fantasies”

     I think he’s against religion in general.

343. diannaartDecember 1, 2015 at 10:50 am

     Mars08

     Standing by my question that JM is particularly incensed by Islam.

344. LeeDecember 1, 2015 at 11:34 am

     A Christian extremist recently shot and killed people at Planned Parenthood – an organisation that not only provides abortions but also women’s health care. When are the moderate Christians going to condemn that? So far on social media I’ve seen other Christian extremists celebrating the actions of their fellow extremist and assuming that the people he shot at were all there for abortions.

345. diannaartDecember 1, 2015 at 12:01 pm

     @Lee

     Indeed. Reclaimers make a lot of noise about women’s inequality in Islam, yet remain remarkably silent about women’s inequality elsewhere.

     As we have not been given any clear idea of what it is that Reclaimers want, I thought I’d check out the website:

     We Reclaim:

     Equality and tolerance of all races and religions—which includes Aussies and Christianity, our holidays and celebrations, Christmas and Easter and ANZAC day.
     Equality at law, no more “cultural considerations”. It is one law for all.
     Food free of blessings, religious taxes or Islamic Sharia Law Certification (Halal)
     Freedom of speech—“offence” is a concept derived from Islam and as such is alien to the foundations of our legal system and our practice of democracy and needs removing.
     Equality of gender—our women are equal. There can be no diminishing of legal rights forced segregation; female genital mutilation (FGM); Sex Trafficking (child brides); Wife beating because they are the ways of Islam. They have no place here in Australia.

     They start by saying they claim equality for all religions, then proceed to target Islam in particular, oblivious to the range of concessions given to Christianity (such as open access to all children in public schools via RI) and that Kosher food for Jews has been acceptable for decades. However, what stood out to me was the claim that:

     …our women are equal… whose women exactly? The female supporters of the Reclaimers? If these women are equal why the use of the possessive adjective: ‘our’? Non-Reclaimer women are unequal?

     As for wife-beating, child brides, FGM, forced segregation – this occurs within and without all religions all across the world.

     At the very least Reclaimers are hypocrites, at worst they are bigots.

346. LeeDecember 1, 2015 at 12:03 pm

     “…our women are equal… whose women exactly? The female supporters of the Reclaimers? If these women are equal why the use of the possessive adjective: ‘our’?”

     If women are equal, why were the Reclaim Australia thugs threatening to rape them at their rally?

347. mars08December 1, 2015 at 12:15 pm

     http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/chauvinist

348. MickDecember 1, 2015 at 12:22 pm

     Not to mention the ludicrous claim that offense is a concept derived from Islam. The word itself is a derivative of a Latin verb. Maybe they should stop appropriating this disgusting Islamic concept and stop being offended by stuff. But I guess defense must be a Christian concept, so that’s fine.

     Maybe a fence is what we need to stop all these nasty un-Australian terrorist concepts jumping cues disguised as refugees and flooding our country so they can marry all our pre-schoolers and get on the dole while they steal our jobs and murder our culture.

349. mars08December 1, 2015 at 2:28 pm

     It’s been over 24 hours, and Mr Maycock is still shy about explaining his stance on the cruelty and atrocities committed by putative democratic governments.

350. Kaye LeeDecember 1, 2015 at 3:27 pm

     Reclaim Australia remind me of the Borg – a hive mind collective. You must assimilate. To say they are reclaiming “equality and tolerance of all races and religions” is total crap. They have no respect for others unless they are just like them (deities forbid).

     Assimilation was what we tried to do to the traditional owners of this land (after genocide proved too big a task). Stubbornly, despite the best efforts of the white invaders and against all the rules, the First Australians hung on to the remnants of their culture. Try as we might, we couldn’t make them white so we decided to try integration. They were allowed to be among us in certain places (not others) provided they behaved like the invaders.

     Self-determination remains a longed for dream as remaining on their ancestral lands is described as an unsustainable lifestyle choice and they are subjected to income management, truancy officers, and mandatory sentencing laws.

     And now the invaders are complaining because people of many different nations have recognised what a great place Australia is (or could be).

     To those who object to the word ‘invaders’, is that not how you are portraying Muslims despite them having done nothing to change your way of life, unlike what we did to the Indigenous population?

     As we are trying to point out, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Australia deplore the atrocities being committed by some nutters overseas. Many of them have lived in Australia for generations, others have come here fleeing war and oppression, others simply in hope of a productive peaceful life for themselves and their family.

     There have been a couple of tragic incidents in Australia but, in reality, the risk is minimal and the numbers who would do us harm miniscule. People talk about the Lindt café but everyone forgets that a woman stabbed to death 8 children the next day. We are not immune from tragedy but respect and tolerance for each other is what is needed, not your colonial ideas about assimilation. I most definitely do NOT want to be like the people I hear speak at Reclaim Australia rallies and I do NOT want them trying to push THEIR ideas on us all!

     Because YOU don’t want to buy halal food, you insist that no-one be able to buy it. Because YOU don’t want to pray in a mosque, you insist that no-one should be able to. Because YOU don’t want to wear a head scarf, you think no-one should. Equality and tolerance my arse.

351. mars08December 1, 2015 at 3:49 pm

     @Kaye Lee… one of the mind-blowing aspects of racism is how it’s based almost entirely on appearances.

     Two men walking down the street, same clothes… one a first-generation Australian of Latvian parents, and one a third-generation Australian of Pakistani background. I’m damn sure I know which one will be getting the suspicious glances from the RA crowd. I suspect the same would be true of a Lebanese Christian walking beside a Serbian Muslim…

352. MickDecember 1, 2015 at 4:10 pm

     Another fascinating thing about it, is that the Reclaim movement actually claim to be representing indigenous people. I wonder how many speak or even know the original language of the areas they are from.

353. John MaycockDecember 1, 2015 at 4:46 pm

     Where do I start,
     FFS, don’t some of you have a life ? 24/7 hanging over a keyboard in eager anticipation of someone posting .Ever thought of volunteering at a soup kitchen, Refuge, Goodwill shop ?
     diannaart, I suggest you READ before commenting , what part of I oppose All religions did you not get,and you just continued on making up crap
     Mars08, you might like to get a watch
     John MaycockNovember 30, 2015 at 10:36 pm
     mars08December 1, 2015 at 2:28 pm
     It’s been over 24 hours, and Mr Maycock is still shy about explaining his stance on the cruelty and atrocities committed by putative democratic governments.
     24 hours ?nowhere near sunshine , and I’m in a different time zone as well
     and where did you ask me
     “cruelty and atrocities committed by putative democratic governments.”

354. John MaycockDecember 1, 2015 at 4:47 pm

     to save you the time {well whatever time you deem it to be }
     I oppose atrocities committed by anyone, government Right/Left/Dictatorship or any combination of the above.

     I am opposed to womens inequality Anywhere any time and have written on my support of campaigns against domestic violence as well
     I am willing to answer your questions , but please don’t make up shit to suit your argument and hang it on me and don’t pretend, timewise, that I am dodging you, as that is also deceptive
     I’m off now, as I have a life , you should try it .
     Go on, be brave step away from the keyboard and go smell the roses

355. LeeDecember 1, 2015 at 4:56 pm

     Does anyone know the record for flounces in a thread?

356. diannaartDecember 1, 2015 at 5:04 pm

     @John Maycock

     Your early posts specifically attacking Islam, for example:

     How do we know it isn’t already happening here ?.
     Britain has 85 sharia courts: The astonishing spread of the Islamic justice behind closed doors
     The astonishing figure is 17 times higher than previously accepted.
     But the study by academic and Islamic specialist Denis MacEoin estimates there are at least 85 working tribunals.
     Mr MacEoin said: ‘Among the rulings we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as applied by British courts.’
     The report added: ‘The fact that so many sharia rulings in Britain relate to cases concerning divorce and custody of children is of particular concern, as women are not equal in sharia law, and sharia contains no specific commitment to the best interests of the child that is fundamental to family law in the UK.
     ‘Under sharia, a male child belongs to the father after the age of seven, regardless of circumstances

     The above, along with many other comments made by you at the beginning of this thread.

     I can make a list if your memory requires further refreshing.

     😉

357. Kaye LeeDecember 1, 2015 at 5:13 pm

     I find it astonishing that we are returning to paternalism and protectionism towards the people and no regulations, no disclosure, laissez-faire global business.

     It’s hard to believe a PM who says it is no time for “gestures and machismo” whose Treasurer and Immigration Minister, followed by that ambitious lickspittle Josh Frydenberg (and to think I once believed he had potential), attack the Grand Mufti, ignoring his clarification of ill-chosen words. Does Peter Dutton not remember Border Farce invading the streets of Melbourne, or water lapping at Pacific Island doors and Cape York time? Has Morrison forgotten his objections to asylum seekers attending their families’ funerals?

     And when are they going to muzzle George Christensen? Speaking at Reclaim Australia rallies about the culture of appeasement , saying he won’t accept Syrian refugees, claiming that Australia is at “war with radical Islam”, and that Australia’s lifestyle should not be “surrendered”, that refugees accepted into Australia would either take jobs meant for Australians, or end up on the dole, that all products certified as Halal, such as Vegemite, should be labelled in order to protect people: “To be frank, I find it outrageous that some of my grocery spending could go to propagating a religion.” (Pssst sugar plum fairy, Sanitarium is wholly owned by the Seventh Day Adventist Church.) Any leader worth his salt would do something about this ignorant fool, whose understanding of social issues does not stretch beyond what the Telegraph tells him, before he does any more harm.

358. LeeDecember 1, 2015 at 5:22 pm

     “To be frank, I find it outrageous that some of my grocery spending could go to propagating a religion.”

     I don’t think deep fried lard will ever be halal certified, so George is worrying over nothing.

359. mars08December 1, 2015 at 5:37 pm

     I oppose atrocities committed by anyone…

     My fault. ‘Atrocities’ can be such a malleable word. No wonder you were so confused.

360. diannaartDecember 1, 2015 at 5:38 pm

     I really am against ALL religious influence in politics or law.

     While innocent people are being held responsible for the action of an extreme minority, focus upon specific actions by a specific religion is nothing more than fostering further hatred.

     I do not agree with the influence of Christianity in our political system any more than the implications of Sharia Law in England (http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-sharia-law-uk/18486)

     …..In fact, one of the sites mentioned by the researchers, Darul Iftaa, explicitly states: “Darul Iftaa is not an Islamic sharia law court; hence, the opinions provided by us are not intended to be a ruling as one would expect to receive from a sharia court.”

     So that number of 85, though very widely reported, is difficult to verify.

     There is a nationwide network of at least 10 bodies run by the Islamic Sharia Council, based in Leyton, east London. These deal overwhelmingly with matrimonial problems but have no real powers under English law…..

     …..Jewish law bodies have operated for centuries, offering rulings on many of the same civil disputes now being tackled by the sharia councils.

     Similarly, a Jewish religious court or Beth Din can grant a religious divorce – which has nothing to do with ending a civil marriage.

     And a Jewish court can make legally binding rulings – but only if both parties agree to let it act as an official arbitrator under English law.

     As with the sharia councils, complaints and controversies are not uncommon. Some orthodox Jewish women, known as “chained women” have found themselves unable to marry again in a synagogue because their husbands deny them a religious divorce….

     I no more support the intrusion of Jewish courts here in Australia, than I do Sharia.

     This thread is about asking what is Reclaim Australia trying to reclaim. Reclaimers can only see the worst of any group they target – at present that is Muslim people. However, this can just as easily change back to Asians (thanks Pauline) or towards another cultural group who have the temerity to be ‘different’ from white Anglo-saxon orstrayliens.

     If I am mistaken and John Maycock has been targeting ALL religions in his comments throughout this thread, then I apologise.

     Otherwise I stand by my question “why single out Islam?

361. corvus boreusDecember 1, 2015 at 5:48 pm

     It is now 144 hours since I first raised the issue that ‘we claim straya’ is intimately intertwined with intolerant religious bigots and militant right-wing extremists, and not a single poster advocating their agenda has decried, denied or defended against this.
     The closest I got to an answer was young Katrina the recruiter, who merely shrugged it off as none of her business.
     They should make some effort to claim their own ‘movement’ before trying to lay claim to our country.

362. John MaycockDecember 1, 2015 at 5:55 pm

     “My fault. ‘Atrocities’ can be such a malleable word. No wonder you were so confused.”
     Sorry, the confusion stops with you ,
     Where was the question where you posed “It’s been over 24 hours, and Mr Maycock is still shy about explaining his stance on the cruelty and atrocities committed by putative democratic governments.” regarding cruelty and atrocities
     “My fault. ‘Atrocities’ can be such a malleable word. No wonder you were so confused.”
     cofused ? NO
     It seems the confusion is all with you old son, first, you must ask a question to get an answer
     Hey, have you been out to buy a watch yet . you didn’t correct that

     Diannaart
     to may it as clear as I can for you I am an equal opportunity hater of religion
     ALL of them
     I hope that clears up some of your obvious confusion
     Now I really do have to go out now, so I’m not ignoring you, just enjoying life , you should try it .
     I hope you dont hover ,waiting cause I’m gone till tomorrow

363. mars08December 1, 2015 at 6:20 pm

     Oh ah.. Look over there! Shoes! What? Sorry, did get that. Smoke. Excuse me. Geography. Loving life. Bye…

364. Miriam PossitaniDecember 1, 2015 at 7:06 pm

     Mars8
     I thought they were reasonable questions
     With the Philippine /Australia time gap it was about 11 hour , and nighttime not “over 24 hours”
     which you failed to respond to and for the life of me I can’t find a question you posed regarding “his stance on the cruelty and atrocities committed by putative democratic governments.”
     “Oh ah.. Look over there!”
     your doing exactly that, dancing around the question
     Soft shoe shuffle ?

365. mars08December 1, 2015 at 7:09 pm

     Fine… I will check back in 12 hours. So glad we’ve focused on the big picture.

     Reclaim Time!!

     BTW… I’m more partial to the cha-cha…!

366. John ConnellyDecember 1, 2015 at 7:36 pm

     Past 12 months in Australia:
     THREE Terrorist attacks involving fatalities.
     SIX thwarted terrorist attacks.
     FOUR Hundred ASIO cases under investigation.
     Farhad Jabour killed police accountant Curtis Cheng.
     Man Monis staged the deadly Lindt cafe siege.
     Numan Haider stabbed two police in Melbourne.
     Mohammad Ali Baryalei became a recruiter and fighter for IS.
     Saney Edow Aweys plotted to attack the Holsworthy Army base.
     It’s so wrong that Islam claims its nothing to do with them and that the “progressive” left backs a religion with so many primitive practices. Christianity has been under the torch of scrutiny for over 200 years which has helped to bring it in line with the 21st century. . We need a cooperative joint approach to tackling radicalism within Islam.

367. Miriam PossitaniDecember 1, 2015 at 7:41 pm

     Check back in 12 hours for what ?
     Gee you are Cha Chaing hard ,
     ever thought of just saying “I was wrong”
     Or is that a strange concept to you ?
     I seems you are doing a fair bit of “over here”
     It seems that rather than admit your mistakes on issues of honesty and time it is easier to play over here Reclaim Time, forget what I said , it doesn’t do much for your credibility

368. mars08December 1, 2015 at 7:44 pm

     That’s fascinatimg Miriam…

     You can tell me the lenght of time since I asked the question YET for the life of you, you can’t find the question I posed!!!

     Quoting me from November 30, 2015 at 10:41 am…

     …I wonder what John Maycock might conclude from my post on November 29 at 11:42 am? What does he say about putative secular, democratic governments who cause the preventable deaths on 500,000 children under 5 years old. How does he feel about democratically elected governments who knowingly turn a developing nation into a slaughterhouse to try and weaken a rival? How does John Maycock feel about freely elected leaders launching an illegal, contrived needles war of aggression and the chaos that followed? What does RA think about the armed forces of a democratic nation knowingly targeting, killing, dismembering and wounding innocent people using “signature” drone strikes?

     So Miriam, since John has other engagements and has waltzed away, would you care to reply to those questions? Or will you just pull your foxtrotting head in?

369. LeeDecember 1, 2015 at 7:46 pm

     “Past 12 months in Australia:
     THREE Terrorist attacks involving fatalities.”

     Every week in Australia:
     2 women killed as a result of domestic terrorism.

370. Norman MoffattDecember 1, 2015 at 7:46 pm

     Victoria Rollison has zero knowledge of Islam and it’s history, she is a disgrace telling concerned Australians to leave their country. There is a Quranic term for people like her, A “Dhimmis do not believe that Mohammed was a prophet, but they never say anything that would displease a Muslim. Dhimmis never offend Islam and condemn any analysis that is critical of Islam as being biased.”

371. silkwormDecember 1, 2015 at 7:54 pm

     What is the Israeli flag doing at that Reclaim Australia rally? Now I get it. The Nazis are reclaiming Australia for Zionism.

372. paul walterDecember 1, 2015 at 8:10 pm

     Neatly put, Silkworm.

373. mars08December 1, 2015 at 8:11 pm

     Norman, you clueless, jibbering tool. It’s an ARABIC word… and you have mangled the meaning beyond recognition. Take your pathetic rubbish elsewhere.

374. Miriam PossitaniDecember 1, 2015 at 8:11 pm

     OOH AAH ,
     I’m waiting ……
     you spelt lenght wrong {length}
     One of the regulats should now dash in and label you a “Bogan”
     that is if they are true to themselves , or is that only for teenage females with opposing views ?

375. Miriam EnglishDecember 1, 2015 at 8:16 pm

     John Connelly, wherever did you get the idea that ‘the “progressive” left backs a religion with so many primitive practices’? I think you’ll find most of us here have clearly expressed a dislike for Islam, just as many of us have expressed a similar dislike for most religions, including Christianity. The problem with “Reclaim” Australia adherents (as we keep having to repeat ad nauseum) is they tend to think Christians have the right to be moderate but that Muslims don’t have that right.

     There are a great many modern Muslims who like the idea of women being equal partners in life, of being able to eat what they wish, of dressing how they wish, without the ancient stereotypes of Islam, and of being part of a wider, tolerant, cosmopolitan, secular world with all its great advantages. There are others spread out somewhere between that and the strict Muslims who pray several times a day. Unfortunately “Reclaim” Australia devotees don’t seem to be able to distinguish the difference between any of these and want to make an enemy of them all.

     “We need a cooperative joint approach to tackling radicalism within Islam.”
     Exactly! You won’t get that by attacking the moderate Muslims. That just worsens radicalism. We need the moderates to help fix this problem and we need to give them every chance to help Islam into the 21st Century.

     There is a movement among Muslims to make the bad parts of Islam lose support from inside the religion. This is similar to the way some of the worst parts of the Bible have been defused, for example not many Christians support the genocide recommended in Deuteronomy 13:12-16, or of murdering adulterers and children who talk back and people who work on the Sabbath. (Though ridiculous numbers of Christians still support other absurd homophobic and misogynist passages and actually kill and oppress people as a result.)

     Frankly I can hardly wait until all religions lose all support and are considered in the same light as worship of Thor and Zeus and Aphrodite. But we need a peaceful way to get there. Alienating the very people who could help is not a solution.

376. paul walterDecember 1, 2015 at 8:17 pm

     mars08, the comments from three or four people here are perplexing and unhelpful, given that right answers can contribute toward the end of a lot of suffering.

     Why might you think this might be?

377. paul walterDecember 1, 2015 at 8:21 pm

     Miriam English’s comment is more constructive. But you won’t see the end of religion because it deals with basic questions that tease at the human mind and soul.

378. Matters NotDecember 1, 2015 at 8:30 pm

     Victoria Rollison has zero knowledge of Islam and it’s (sic) history

     Perhaps you could correct her with a ‘link’. It appears that you know the un-contestable truth re the history of Islam, so only one (link) will be needed.

     I await the ‘truth’.

379. mars08December 1, 2015 at 8:32 pm

     Why might you think this might be?

     My guess it that it’s related to something dicussed by Waleed Aly (and others) in the wake of the Paris attack. Angry, mindless radicals want to create a toxic us versus them environment… in the hope of igniting open warfare.

     Danm those radicals.

380. Miriam PossitaniDecember 1, 2015 at 8:37 pm

     Its tough but I have to fact check everything one poster says now
     Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination
     Jews and Christians living under early Muslim rule were considered dhimmis, a status that was later also extended to other non-Muslims like Hindus.
     Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word “dhimmitude” as a historical concept,

381. Matters NotDecember 1, 2015 at 8:38 pm

     paul walter

     because it deals with basic questions that tease at the human mind and soul.

     And whose basic questions would they be? Certainly not mine. I am sure you would be aware that human mind and soul are essentially religious/cultural concepts that are not universally shared.

     I am not into metaphysics.

382. paul walterDecember 1, 2015 at 8:40 pm

     And damn the sly, manipulative politicians, generals, media and press and financiers, etc, who stoke the hotheads on both sides and hide the truth from all.

383. Michael TaylorDecember 1, 2015 at 8:42 pm

     Victoria Rollison has zero knowledge of Islam and it’s history,

     And you have zero knowledge of Victoria Rollison, but it didn’t stop you from expressing an opinion.

384. paul walterDecember 1, 2015 at 8:45 pm

     Yes, Matters Not. Please try a more entelligent, less adversarial line if you want an adult conversation, though.

     I am glad you will be able to correct me on the origins, purposes and destination of the universe and humanity during this conversation, including incontrovertible, one way or the other answers on these things and the existance or otherwise of god, say.

     After all, to know for a certainty the answers to so many big questions- why, you must BE god!

385. Michael TaylorDecember 1, 2015 at 8:46 pm

     Don’t remember where I saw it, but apparently at one of the climate change rallies the people taking part in the rally were heckled by a ‘Reclaim Australia’ mob.

     So we know that much about the average ‘Reclaim Australia’ type:

     1. They dislike refugees.
     2 The dislike Muslims.
     3. They don’t believe in climate change.

     Anything else?

     Perhaps they’ll soon be calling for our firearm laws to be relaxed.

386. paul walterDecember 1, 2015 at 8:53 pm

     In short, Michael Taylor, they are like suspicious, medieval peasants or illiterate crackers from the Deep South, shooting in the dark and driven by ungrounded fears derived of ignorance and lack of brainpower.

     These people are more interetsed in primitive “magic”solutions than anything to do with metaphysics, much less an ethics of care.

387. Matters NotDecember 1, 2015 at 8:57 pm

     And you have zero knowledge of Victoria Rollison

     Indeed! She (Ms Rollison) is yet to become an historical figure of significance . But she has lots of time left.

     On the other hand, ‘Islam’ has been on the historical stage for more than 1 300 years. Histories, flowing from various theoretical perspectives, abound. There isn’t The history of Islam but Many histories of Islam.

     History isn’t about Truth in the same way as Logic and Mathematics are about Truth but always about ‘likelihoods’

388. mars08December 1, 2015 at 8:58 pm

     Well, if we are to believe that photo… they don’t want “Halal taxs”

     Can we assume that Kosher taxs are acceptable?

389. Miriam EnglishDecember 1, 2015 at 9:03 pm

     Thank you, Paul. However, I disagree with you about religion.

     All religions say they give some kind of answer to deep questions of meaning, but when pressed they all say “We can’t know God’s purpose. He moves in mysterious ways.” So they all dodge the actual questions they say they can answer. Bait and switch.

     As for the questions themselves, science and logic actually can answer them. The main question is “What is the purpose of life?” We know from science the answer to this. The purpose of life is to make life; that’s what makes living material so special: it makes more life. It’s simple once we take our gaze off fictitious gods. But there are other purposes beyond that. Some living things have intelligence, and the purpose of that is to learn. And there is more beyond that too. Some intelligent living things are social, and that gives them another purpose: to help their fellows.

     Humans, with our extraordinary brains, are capable of understanding that all living things on Earth are related and interdependent so we are able to extend our social group beyond our immediate family, beyond a tribe, a village, or country, even beyond our species, and see that we benefit immensely by helping all life, which sweetly brings us full circle to the original purpose of life.

     So science gives us: enhance life, learn, and help our fellows.

     Religion gives us… strife.

     Oh, because it has always coveted such power it has sponsored some beautiful art and literature, though that could just as easily have come from secular sources, and in fact does in much greater quantity now.

     Religion promotes itself as a foundation of morality, but when you look at the statistics they reveal the exact opposite. The more religious a society then the more social ills and the more rotten is their morality. Religious people have higher incidences of murder, divorce, teen pregnancy, infant mortality, sexually transmitted disease than atheists do.

     Does religion offer comfort? Perhaps a case can be made that believing in some silly lie can be comforting because you think you’re going to heaven or that Aunt Harriet is smiling down from there, but for every person who believes that kind of saccharine wish-fulfillment pap there are others who live in terror of spending an eternity being tortured in hell. Yesterday was commemorated as the birthday of Lucy Maud Montgomery who wrote “Anne of Green Gables” and many more books. I was reading about her life and was saddened that she wasted a lot of her life married to a preacher who spent many years in depression and fear that god was going to send him to hell. Religion wasted both their lives in a most repulsive way.

     Sorry about the rant. 😀 You can tell I hate it when people excuse religion, by saying it serves a purpose. 🙂

390. Matters NotDecember 1, 2015 at 9:11 pm

     Paul walter:

     will be able to correct me on the origins, purposes and destination of the universe

     No me. That’s way above my ‘pay grade’. As I pointed out, I am not into ‘metaphysics’ I’ll leave that to those who claim to ‘know’. I don’t even claim to ‘know’ the ‘right’ questions to ask. But apparently you do.

     After all, to know for a certainty the answers to so many big questions

     As I pointed out, I don’t know the answers to your ‘big’ questions. And then there’s this.

     you must BE god!

     That is somewhat ‘difficult’ given to what I wrote above. Paul, ‘God’ is your construct but certainly not mine. But it does explain where you ‘think you come from. And where you hope to go.

     Perhaps I should end with – God be with you. Hope that helps.

     And you wanted an ‘adult’ conversation.

391. corvus boreusDecember 1, 2015 at 9:23 pm

     paul walter,
     Religion (from the latin term for ‘binding’) does indeed tend to ‘deal with’ many basic questions common to human curiosity, usually by imposing dogmatic indoctrination in a single ‘answer’ text that denies any comparisons or rigorous questions.
     It is somewhat akin to limiting study of classical history purely to compulsive repeat-readings of ‘Caesar’s Conquest of Gaul’.
     This approach has badly retarded the study of both theology and philosophy, to the detriment of human societal development.

392. Miriam EnglishDecember 1, 2015 at 9:40 pm

     Please don’t take my answer as a ferocious biting-the-head-off kind of response. I tend to slip into rant mode when people give praise to religion. 🙂 A bit of a flaw of mine. I see religion as something we have to grit our teeth and bear until it has run out of steam, which it is gradually doing, thank goodness. The world will be a better and more humane place without it.

     Of course I should include with “religion” all unsupported faiths, such as in the invisible hand of the free market, the belief that people’s skin color determines their superiority, that a particular dress code is the right one, that people should only be heterosexual, that there are only two clearly delineated sexes, that some classes (particularly those that own more trading tokens) have more claim on life, that men are better than women or that women are better than men, that humans are inherently more important than dogs, horses, dolphins, pigs, etc., that the climate is not being destabilised… and so on. 🙂

393. paul walterDecember 1, 2015 at 10:50 pm

     Seldom have so many so misunderstood another comment so much as some folk here.

     1) No Corvus, I don’t go to church and haven’t been for decades. I am aware of the difference between metaphysics and religion, a set of doctrines based on certain unproven assumptions and aleap of faith following. Metaphysics is to do with understanding how the universe and sentient beings may operate, a subset of philosophy and probably more rewarding.

     2) A “construct of God”. Well, what does it mean? I don’t know, but I think a god who is capable of what I’m not capable of, particularly when it comes to being reactive, is getting closer, in my imagination. As I said above, I also am not qualified to come to a final answer as to whether there is a god or not. I await enlightenment, one way or the other and in the meantime commend leftie Jeff Sparrow’s comments on Dawkins, et al, in yesterdays Guardian.

     3) This thread is an (unwilling?) part of a process of anti Islamism in a society that is being gulled into thinking there is a justification for the plunder of many people and their home countries. It is convenient for Christians and Jewish people to think that the evils of “religion” applies to others, but when you look at the death toll inflicted on humanity over the last century alone, you have to come to the conclusion that all religions (or is it the people?) fail, or else answer some sticky questions concerning the rest of us apart from the Islamic world.

394. diannaartDecember 2, 2015 at 11:56 am

     Nothing much has changed; Australians still focused upon denigrating a single religion, Islam, while our freedoms are steadily curtailed by government and big business…. aided by the dominant religion in Australia; Christianity, which unwittingly brings the regression of all religions with it.

     “I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hates so stubbornly is because they sense, once hate is gone, they will be forced to deal with pain.”
     ― James Baldwin

395. Kaye LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 12:19 pm

     Interesting diannaart.

     A priest who was vice-rector at St Patrick’s when Tony Abbott was at the seminary spoke about how the church bent over backwards to accommodate Abbott’s demands about ditching pastoral care and going back to study – an offer Abbott rejected.

     “Once Tony had beaten the system and was no longer able to locate the ‘struggle’ as being between himself and authority, he had no-one much else blocking his path but himself.”

     If you can’t blame the Muslims for you not having a job, or for the price of food, or for traffic jams and long waiting times in hospitals, and all the violence and crime…….then you might just have to look at yourself.

396. diannaartDecember 2, 2015 at 12:24 pm

     ……. then you might just have to look at yourself

     …. not an easy thing to do, whereas bigotry doesn’t even require a single thought.

397. mars08December 2, 2015 at 12:27 pm

     Frightfully elitist comment follows:

     Look at the mindless numpties in the top photo…

     When it comes to government actions and policies, haven’t they got bigger things to worry about? In terms of social and economic issues, shouldn’t they be focused on a bunch of other stuff rather than Muslims? They have been royally screwed over by their own country… yet it’s the boats which cop their wrath.

398. Kaye LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 12:42 pm

     “All girls must finish (underlined) kindy before marriage”

     What a helpful sign to display. The huge problem of kindy undergraduates being wed in Australia is of great concern. Thank goodness concerned members of the public are bringing this to our attention. I wonder if they have been listening to the Royal Commission or is child sex outside wedlock permissable?

399. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 1:27 pm

     Not far of kindy though ,
     Rawan, an eight-year-old girl in Yemen has died from being repeatedly raped by her 40-year-old husband. She bled to death after being sold by her parents to her husband.
     The husband who killed his eight-year-old bride wasn’t arrested nor was her family for selling her into slavery.
     Tragically, the barbaric practice of marrying children is part of Sharia law in Islam. Mohammed married six-year-old Aisha and consummated the marriage when she was nine. He clearly approved of pedophile-style marriages and the practice has continued to this day.
     Rawan’s death isn’t unusual. In 2010, a 13-year-old 7th grader in America died after bleeding uncontrollably for five days after her wedding night. In 2010, a 12-year-old died in labor after struggling to give birth after three days.
     In Yemen, more than a quarter of young girls are sold into marriages before the age of 15.
     http://www.religiousfreedomcoalition.org/2013/09/20/muslim-man-rapes-child-bride-until-she-dies/
     The International Center for Research on Women now estimates that there are 51 million child brides now living on planet Earth and almost all in Muslim …
     http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/MassMuslimMarriage.htm

400. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 1:30 pm

     Racists are so predictable and so very useful.

     Need a boost in military funding? Rattle the mental cages of the racists so they get all worked up about terrorists. You’ll have your funding in no time.

     Need to steal some Aboriginal land? The racists can be quickly brought to bear of the problem by complaining of the pittance we spend on the blighters (much better to be handing billions to our friend Gina).

     Made some stupid political blunder that you’re scared of being held to account for? Incite the racists about some poor bastards who want to peacefully practice yet another silly religion. That’ll distract everybody nicely.

     And if you’re a media company pretending to deliver the news, racists are an absolute godsend. They sell like nothing else. When their feelings are out of sync with much of the community, they sell, and when large parts of the community are sucked in to sympathise with racist attitudes, they still sell. Racists are a gold mine either way.

     Perhaps we should declare racists a national resource that must be preserved at all costs. Thankfully we don’t appear to be running short of them. But if some of them grow up and become more worldly, shedding their racism, don’t worry, there will always be a ready supply of new racists. We have simple techniques to manufacture them, made to order at a moment’s notice. And don’t worry about incitement of racism being against the law. That’s always been easy to get around: just cynically squeal about free speech. That always works.

     You might wonder, what about the damage to society? Silly you. Margaret Thatcher taught us the truth on that: there is no such thing as society. It is the mark of filthy socialists to think there is anything called a society. In reality it is every man against every other, with us living comfortably in our gated communities. In our comfortably air-conditioned homes even climate destabilisation couldn’t touch us… if it existed, which of course it doesn’t.

     So our message to the racists is, thank you very much. Jump to our strings again and we will thank you further. To everybody else on Earth, f*ck you very much.

     [Just in case anybody mistakes this for my real feelings on the topic, I point out that this is satire. My feelings are actually opposite to this.]

401. Michael TaylorDecember 2, 2015 at 1:38 pm

     Miriam, racists seem to write the policies in this country.

     I remember when I was in ATSIC, despite having hundreds of competent policy officers at his disposal, Howard used to instead rely on editorials in The Australian to determine what would and would not be his brand new policy to fix everything.

402. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 1:40 pm

     “Margaret Thatcher taught us the truth on that: there is no such thing as society. ”

     Everyone is in competition with each other, hating each other for no justifiable reason and looking out only for themselves. Doesn’t that make for a nice world in which to live? As Paul Keating once said, conservatives are mean little people.

403. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 1:41 pm

     UniversalSoulJa, such rape of young girls and forcing them to give birth is extremely common in Christian countries too. It isn’t called marriage there, but the poor kids are not allowed to have life-saving abortions because Christians often inexplicably have this belief that an unformed, unconscious foetus is more important than a fully sentient girl.

404. diannaartDecember 2, 2015 at 1:45 pm

     UniversalSoulJa

     No need to seek abuse of children abroad we have plenty of home grown Australian child abusers right here:

     …claim by Liberal senator Bill Heffernan that he has a police list which names 28 prominent people, including a former prime minister, as suspected pedophiles

     http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/10/21/abuse-survivors-demand-pedophile-action.html

     Oh…. wait a minute, UniversalSoulJa, you just meant to incite further hatred against Muslims – you don’t really care about the welfare of that little 8 year girl – just that her abuser is Muslim. Gee, I shoulda seen that one coming…

405. mars08December 2, 2015 at 1:52 pm

     It’s so depressing…

     A few weeks ago my daughter and I bumped into her cousin… the daughter of my ex wife’s brother. The are both in their early 20s.

     There was the usual catch-up chat and the young lady told my daughter that she was recently engaged. She said her fiancé is a uni student. His parents are from Turkey. Then she quickly added the qualifier… “but they’re okay…”

     Frankly, my daughter and I had no reason to suspect otherwise!

406. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 2:02 pm

     I have been paying attention to the Royal Commission, but not following. I do wonder however if any Islamic institutions have been implicated in it’s findings.

     A major issue in this country, let alone in basic human behaviour, is the presumption of guilt and false conjunction of crimes. At a human level, it is widespread which is why we have set up institutions and practices that are supposed to protect people from this habit. People are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Add to this an element of what is essential racial/religious profiling and the results are dangerous.

     When you look at the reaction to the Parramatta shooting. The tone of the reporting and the words of the police declared it immediately as an act of terror. Even though they admitted to having “no information that this individual posed this type of threat”, they said they “We believe his actions were politically motivated and therefore linked to terrorism”, though they were ” a long way from establishing a full picture of the gunman but could confirm he was of Iraqi-Kurdish background and born in Iran.”

     This kind of presumptuousness does not help the people of this country who, right or wrong, are scared of groups like ISIS and are extrapolating theirs fears out to include all of Islam. There are countless examples from our top level politicians of putting the cart before the horse and presuming guilt. These people are supposed to be “Honorable”. They are self professed role models and societal sculptors who represent “average Australians.” It is a nasty habit that has taken centuries of fighting to remove from the law, but the struggle continues to remove the deeply ingrained habit from our lives.

     It also does not help when the word terrorism is used in such a way that it essentially takes on the meaning of a violent crime committed by a Muslim. Terrorism is about using violence and threats of violence to coerce people into accepting certain political goals. Can the misguided actions of a fifteen year old boy against a random police officer be called terrorism by serious journalists and news outlets while the shock and awe tactics of the Coalition of the Willing, or the actions of the Israeli military are at worst foreign policy or military blunders, as through someone crashed a tank into a parked car while drunk.

     Unfortunately, the kid who fired the Parramatta shots is dead, and we will never hear his side of the story. He will never have the chance to live his life and regret and reflect upon the mistakes he made. But we can. We can put it into context. We can look at the bigger picture, something a fifteen year old boy often does not have the necessary life experience for.

     Farhad Jabar Khalil Mohammad was obviously guilty of murder. He killed someone deliberately. A police officer. But, terrorism…surely such a strong word should have been reserved until further evidence came to light, especially considering how sensitive the issue is.

     So the question is, why was it applied so readily?

407. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 2:10 pm

     diannaart
     I don’t think penalties for child abuse are severe enough
     Gillard should be applauded for the Royal Commission and with a wife who spent years in a Catholic Orphanage , though thankfully untouched sexually, but physically and mentally I hate those bastards also BUT abuse of an underage child is to be condemned not found excuses for, because they are Muslim
     “The International Center for Research on Women now estimates that there are 51 million child brides now living on planet Earth and almost all in Muslim”
     Note, Mostly Muslim
     Pedophiles, groomers and exploiters of little girls
     I am opposed to child abuse in all forms regardless of country but that International Center for Research on Women report is a shocking statistic which surely you aren’t condoning ?

408. mars08December 2, 2015 at 2:15 pm

     UniversalSoulJaDecember… Rawan died in 2013 in Haradh, Yemen.

     In March of this year, Saudi fighter-bombers killed 40 people and wounded 200 in a refugee camp in the same town.

     Why no outrage at that tragedy?

409. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 2:17 pm

     “I am opposed to child abuse in all forms regardless of country but that International Center for Research on Women report is a shocking statistic which surely you aren’t condoning ?”

     Straw man. And you’re still a bigot.

410. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 2:19 pm

     “In March of this year, Saudi fighter-bombers killed 40 people and wounded 200 in a refugee camp in the same town.

     Why no outrage at that tragedy?”

     Americans bombed an MSF hospital in Kunduz too. No outrage at that tragedy either.

411. RobDecember 2, 2015 at 2:22 pm

     “If you don’t like the religion of Islam, don’t be Islamic. If you don’t like Islamic cultural practices, don’t practice them. If you don’t like Islamic people, leave them alone. They’re not hurting you, so why are you attacking them?”

     That’s not the point. Given half a chance Islam won’t leave us alone. Just because you are tolerant of them doesn’t for ONE MINUTE mean that they are tolerant of you. They aren’t one little bit tolerant of anything that’s not 100% halal.

     “presumably because you are scared of anyone who is not like you”

     NO, because I’m scared of people who want to cut my bloody head off just for speaking out against there brain-dead “religion”.

     “I don’t like seafood so I don’t eat seafood. Everyone else in my family likes seafood, and when they are enjoying their seafood, it doesn’t upset me because I have chosen to eat something else instead, such as chicken. I don’t rally against their prawns.”

     But I would put money on you rallying against guns just because you doesn’t like them.

     You need to wake up and smell the roses sweetheart, before you have to smell them through a burka.

412. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 2:26 pm

     UniversalSoulja,

     All that you said, which seems to represent the views of a lot of people, leaves me asking…if those women and children then come to Australia to escape places that enforce an outdated and extreme version of Islam, why should they be targeted on the streets? Why are they considered a threat?

     If Malala Yousafzai came to live in Australia, there is a high chance she would be attacked in the street for wearing her hijab and she is considered an international heroine and defender of women’s rights.

     Most Muslims I know would not accept pedophilia in their community, and yet it takes place. Most people I know do not accept pedophilia in their communities and yet it takes place. The Royal Commission has shown in recent years that not only has it been taking place in our communities but it has been practically a pandemic. It has been systemic.

     It is further complicated by various factors.

     The Koran, like the Old and New Testaments were all first written over 1400 years ago. I’m sure we would all agree that many people in the world have moved on. Great Balls of Fire still plays on the radio and it was only written sixty years ago by a man that married his thirteen year old cousin. It is just unfortunate that when people get really angry, they tend to see only the negatives, and will search far and wide for bits of information to reinforce their beliefs.

     I’m not saying the things you mentioned aren’t atrocious, but they can hardly be attributed to every Islamic person, just like Australians are responsible for every incidence of pedophilia that has occurred under our noses for generations.

413. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 2:31 pm

     Lee, those comments are so unhelpful. Just because someone is expressing concerns about things doesn’t make them a bigot. Throwing words like that around is just as bad as labelling all Islamic people terrorists. People are complicated and have reasons, as little sense as they make to others, for their feelings.

     You are not going to persuade anyone by using that kind of talk. You will drive them further away from the discussion. Show some respect for others and this dialogue may have a worthwhile outcome.

414. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 2:37 pm

     Bob, you say that Muslims won’t tolerate us, but that just isn’t true. I lived for some years in a predominantly Muslim area and all the people I met were kind, courteous, and accepting. I met only one intolerant, aggressive Muslim, and he was a young kid who didn’t know any better. He was soon brought to order by his elders (Muslims all).

     I think Islam is a stupid religion, just as I think all religions are insane, but I’ve had many Christian, Buddhist, and Muslim friends. Almost all have been good people who just want to live nice, comfortable lives. Most of the aggressive, intolerant people I met were Christians (some were utterly appallingly horrible people).

     By inciting hate against Muslims you are helping to radicalise Muslim youths. You and your hate diatribe are helping to cause the very problem you are going all headless-chicken about. The only way to solve the problem you’re so scared of is to have the moderate Muslim majority on our side. You don’t get that by making them your enemy.

415. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 2:37 pm

     “That’s not the point. Given half a chance Islam won’t leave us alone. Just because you are tolerant of them doesn’t for ONE MINUTE mean that they are tolerant of you. They aren’t one little bit tolerant of anything that’s not 100% halal.”

     Really? Muslims have been living in Australia since the mid 1800s. Where’s the evidence to support your ridiculous claims?

     “You need to wake up and smell the roses sweetheart, before you have to smell them through a burka.”

     In several Muslim populations the burqa is not worn at all. I have a Muslim work colleague who wears no covering over her head and she is married to a Hindu. Her own family are very accepting of her marriage. If they aren’t imposing the burqa on their own, why would we be in danger of being forced to wear it?

416. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 2:40 pm

     Rob, we have had the largest Muslim nation in the world at our doorstep for centuries and nobody has forced it upon us. The religion that was enforced in this country was from another branch of the Abrahamic traditions, you might have heard of it.

     Islam has had more than half a chance and we are fine. Modern day muslims, extremists aside, are no where near as evangelical as their Christian counterparts, many of whom still travel the world trying to literally convert the heathens.

     The refugees coming here are coming here to live in freedom. Even if only for a while. If they want to walk down the street in a head scarf it is not an issue. If you see nuns walking around you don’t spit chips at them, you go about your day.

     I personally do not want any fundamentalist regime getting a toehold in this country, and I certainly don’t want to see a fundamentalist regime arise in order to combat the fear of Islamic fundamentalism.

417. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 2:46 pm

     Mick, excellent point about the nuns. I hadn’t thought of that before. I’ll have to remember it next time someone vomits crap about Muslim headscarves.

418. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 2:48 pm

     “Lee, those comments are so unhelpful. Just because someone is expressing concerns about things doesn’t make them a bigot. Throwing words like that around is just as bad as labelling all Islamic people terrorists. People are complicated and have reasons, as little sense as they make to others, for their feelings.”

     Thank you very much, Internet Police. The bigot you are defending had his bigotry pointed out to him and continued with more bigotry. Then he suggested that a victim of domestic violence was condoning rape. You’re not being very helpful by supporting him.

419. Kaye LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 2:55 pm

     If Reclaimers are as concerned about child abuse in Yemen and Niger as they appear to be, why aren’t they campaigning against the cuts to foreign aid? Child protection programs in India, Senegal and Lebanon have been cut, along with education projects in South Sudan and Laos.

420. mars08December 2, 2015 at 2:57 pm

     1. I have spent several months in Malaysia and many weeks in southern Thailand. Nobody ever questioned me about what I was eating or drinking. Not even when I was getting thoroughly pissed WITH some Malay blokes. One of their concessions to Ramadan is to keep off the spirits. Beer only. Pork is still out tho.

     2. The best chicken shawarma and moussaka I’ve ever had was in Penang. Goes very well with a pint of Tiger beer.

     3. I don’t have an allergic reaction to halal food. But maybe i have developed an immunity.

421. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 3:04 pm

     “In March of this year, Saudi fighter-bombers killed 40 people and wounded 200 in a refugee camp in the same town.”
     of course that is outrageous and the War Crimes Tribunal or somebody should act , but , and this is not justifying it, it was in a war BUT
     “The International Center for Research on Women now estimates that there are 51 million child brides now living on planet Earth and almost all in Muslim”
     where is you moral outrage there ?
     51 million for christ sake , and you go off on tangents
     The poor little girls were groomed and handed over to what can only be described as pedophiles ,
     Please, one of you show outrage on behalf of the FIFTY ONE MILLION kids
     At least one was charged and sentenced in Sydney for “grooming” his 12 daughter and marrying her off to a 30 something pedophile .
     Kaye Lee, obviously this is not just Yemen and Niger, 51 million
     and you haven’t condemned that yet .
     talk about 2 faced, So far all I ‘ve read are excuses and deflections, not a condemnation among you

422. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 3:06 pm

     mars08
     so you are more concerned about diet than 51 million kids ,wheres your condemnation ?
     go figure

423. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 3:09 pm

     Speaking of halal foods, I eat a wide variety of foods and cannot recall any that I buy which are halal-certified. I buy a lot from Indian grocery stores too. Yet the Reclaimers are always crying over having to buy halal food and being forced to pay more for it.

424. Kaye LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 3:18 pm

     UniversalSoulJa, do I truly have to say I am outraged by child sexual abuse? Does nothing I have brought up deserve any consideration until I utter that sentence?

425. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 3:20 pm

     “talk about 2 faced, So far all I ‘ve read are excuses and deflections, not a condemnation among you”

     It may surprise you to know that “mostly Muslim” is not the same as “exclusively Muslim”. Yet we haven’t seen you condemn marriage of non-Muslim minors. Come to think of it, we haven’t seen you address any of the apparent hypocrisy of the Reclaim Australia movement that has been highlighted in this thread.

     For the record, I don’t condone marriage of minors, regardless of their religion. I don’t condone abuse of children anywhere, regardless of religion. Neither warrants killing everyone to stop it.

     You may now proceed with another straw man argument.

426. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 3:29 pm

     Lee,

     Your argument is so compelling. I now see the error of my ways.

427. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 3:34 pm

     I find the 51 million number a little difficult to believe, but even if it is a tenth that it is still an utter outrage. It is taken for granted that we consider it terrible and I think I speak for all of us that we think it should stop. BUT there is this niggling concern that you have another reason for pointing it out rather than concern for the girls’ welfare. You are fixated on it because you think it legitimises your hatred of all Australian Muslims. This is why people were reluctant to react; not because we found child-marriage less than repulsive. It felt too much like a trap.

     Vocally condemn the Muslims. See? They’re all evil. Like Bob said, they all want to behead us.

     You are making a link from something which, no matter how disgusting to us, is considered normal in their country, and presenting it as a reason to go full Rambo on them all, including and especially the peaceful ones in Australia who have almost all come here to get away from that kind of crap.

     I’ll be glad when Muslims, Hindus, some Christians, and other religions stop doing things that infringe upon other people’s (including their own children’s) rights to a good life. But that doesn’t give license to people who want to go around infringing on Muslims and Hindus and Christians… and atheists. You don’t get a free ticket to incite hate.

428. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 3:43 pm

     “I find the 51 million number a little difficult to believe,”

     The number is higher than that according to this site. http://www.icrw.org/child-marriage-facts-and-figures

     It also includes some other interesting statements.

     “One third of girls in the developing world are married before the age of 18 and 1 in 9 are married before the age of 15.
     In 2012, 70 million women 20-24 around the world had been married before the age of 18.
     If present trends continue, 150 million girls will be married before their 18th birthday over the next decade. That’s an average of 15 million girls each year.
     While countries with the highest prevalence of child marriage are concentrated in Western and Sub-Saharan Africa, due to population size, the largest number of child brides reside in South Asia.”

     “Girls living in poor households are almost twice as likely to marry before 18 than girls in higher income households.
     More than half of the girls in Bangladesh, Mali, Mozambique and Niger are married before age 18. In these same countries, more than 75 percent of people live on less than $2 a day.”

     “Girls with higher levels of schooling are less likely to marry as children. In Mozambique, some 60 percent of girls with no education are married by 18, compared to 10 percent of girls with secondary schooling and less than one percent of girls with higher education.
     Educating adolescent girls has been a critical factor in increasing the age of marriage in a number of developing countries, including Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Taiwan and Thailand.”

     “No one religious affiliation is associated with child marriage. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world.”

     So child marriage is a product of poverty and a lack of education. Hardly a problem that will be solved by killing all Muslims.

429. diannaartDecember 2, 2015 at 3:44 pm

     Mick, I agree with much of what you say. However well reasoned you are does not make you Lord of AIM.

     Your comments to Lee were unworthy. That UniversalSoulJa is only concerned about child abuse when it is committed by a Muslim is demonstrably bigoted, that UniversalSoulJa suggests I condone child abuse, because I refuse to jump on that wacka-mozzie cart is a straw-man argument as well as obscenely offensive – particularly as I am a victim of abuse myself!

     As for those who can only see child-abuse when it is perpetrated by Muslims – they are bigoted to the point where they can only see Islam as the problem – all of religion is a problem! The attitude of far too many power hungry people is an even greater problem. Control freaks do not cluster in any one religion – they are everywhere.

     Child abuse is reprehensible no matter in which country it occurs or by which religion or culture of the abuser happens to be.

430. mars08December 2, 2015 at 3:45 pm

     Can anyone provide a link to the ICRW research? There’s some stuff about child brides on their web site… but I couldn’t find anything specific about them being “almost all in Muslim countries?

     But there’s no shortage of the factoid being repeated verbatim…

     https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%22the+International+Center+for+Research+on+Women+now+estimates+that+there+are+51+million%22+%22in+muslim%22

431. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 3:45 pm

     UniversalSoulJa

     I have repeatedly said on here that the conditions many women live under in countries where they have fundamentalist Muslim rulers are terrible. The fact remains though, that those women are Muslim too and when they come here, by whatever means, they should not be condemned for the acts of those who have humiliated, maimed and brutalised them. they should be allowed to practice the type of Islam they prefer, which most Muslims would agree does not involve ISIS running the world.

     51 million children affected by pedophilia is horrendous, but as you said, the majority are in Muslim countries. So, is that mostly as in 99% or as in 51%. I haven’t read the report. Either way it is bad. It is also made more complicated by the fact that when cultural groups traditionally not Islamic, take up Islam by choice or by sword, they often retain their own customs too. The same goes for any religious transition. So Islam you see is not one big homogeneous child raping club. It is a broad term used to describe an eclectic set of beliefs that broke of from the other Abrahamic religions, and further segmented as history unfolds. Islam does not agree with Islam as Christians do not agree with Christians.

     Not so long ago the Irish were excluded in Australian society whereas these days people are glad to claim a bit of Irish blood. The convict stain was once something to be denied with extreme prejudice as being somewhere in the family tree, now people hope to find a link that says, hey, we came from the oppressed.

     One day, perhaps Australians will look back on its historic treatment of refugees and feel the same way, no doubt while some other group takes the hot seat that Islam currently sits in.

     I understand your anger, and you seem a reasonable enough person, please consider the complexity of humanity that we are dealing with.

432. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 3:50 pm

     Mars, the ICRW specifically states “No one religious affiliation is associated with child marriage. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world.” The mostly Muslim accusation appears to be a fabrication.

433. mars08December 2, 2015 at 3:51 pm

     Oh…. btw…. it’s worth mentioning that the story linked to by UniversholeSoulJarse is bogus….

     http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/08/anti-muslim-blogoshpere-runs-amuck-forced-to-eat-crow/

     http://www.hoax-slayer.com/mass-muslim-marriage.shtml

434. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 3:51 pm

     UniversalSoulJa already said he was proud of Julia Gillard for the Royal commission, and I certainly don’t and didn’t claim to be Lord of anything. I just spoke my mind. I have a short fuse for name-calling no matter which side of the debate you are one. I understand bigot isn’t just like dickhead, but as far as i was concerned it was too simplistic and aggressive to be constructive.

     I am sorry if it cam off harsher than it needed to. Lee, I am sorry, if I hit you that comment too harshly. I really am. I might have made it worse whle trying to make it better. But this whole debate gets too caught up in simple name-calling.

435. jimhazDecember 2, 2015 at 3:54 pm

     Note: Ignore this way off topic post as you won’t understand it. It’s just I get a mental kick out of writing this stuff.

     [will be able to correct me on the origins, purposes and destination of the universe]

     Origins:
     Assuming we are using universe in its proper sense, as the totality, not as a sub-universe, then it can only be self-caused. If self-caused it must have always existed and cannot not exist as nothingness is technically impossible (Space/vacuums are not nothing and there is no outside of the totality, nor is it possible for nothingness to be caused by something). Sub-universes like our observable universe can be born from or absorbed by others – but not The Totality.

     Purposes:
     Being self-caused its sole “purpose’ is to be self-casual. All things within, such as a planet or us, have the same attribute – in the non-conscious this is demonstrated by gravity and in the conscious it becomes a desire to expand to be more than at present.

     Process of self-causing:
     The universe consists of a singular entity – expansionary energy.

     It is magic :)– it’s sole attribute is that expands, not from nothing, but from itself. It does what it is and is what it does.

     Things are all by-products of expansion. Eg Space is this energy is a non-particle state; the effect of expansion is to cause push aside or pressure what already exists, so it is the power source of causality – thus it is the cause of Time (which is the best name for this energy). It is no wonder the term Spacetime refers to Space and Time acting as one ie “active space”.

     Differentiation is caused by the path of least resistance. Two entities cannot occupy the same space, so what already exists causes self-expansion/energy to flow in different ways. Something self-expanding expands from a centre, making it naturally orb shaped – however as it expands it meet what already exists and its shape or form changes – it explodes (due to internal expansion never ceasing but with nowhere to go except outward) and flattens and then merges with or bounds that which already exists – enabling shape and structure to form.

     Destination:
     As it is infinite, this is not applicable. Infinity has no end – there can be nothing outside of it that would cause it to be otherwise.

     [After all, to know for a certainty the answers to so many big questions- why, you must BE god!]

     Exactly. All creatures that can observe across time are gods. While we observe in the present we are seeing across the past – we are observing forms of many, many conglomerates of different ages. We are all time lords to a degree. Any form of “god” could only do the same – unlike time they cannot create something from nothing, nor can they from from nothing or operate in nothing, nor can nothingness exist. We can thus discount the notion of God.

436. mars08December 2, 2015 at 3:59 pm

     Mick December 2, 2015:

     51 million children affected by pedophilia is horrendous, but as you said, the majority are in Muslim countries. So, is that mostly as in 99% or as in 51%. I haven’t read the report….

     Don’t worry too much about reading any report, Mick.

     UniversalSoulJa hasn’t read it either. He is just repeating some fabricated rubbish he’s seen on the net, as a pitiful justification for his stupidity and bigotry.

437. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 4:03 pm

     All this debating is making me a little crazy mars, was that a dig at me?

     I was just trying to be honest, and say that figures like that are irrelevant without context.

438. corvus boreusDecember 2, 2015 at 4:07 pm

     From International Centre for Research on Women (ICRW) published articles;
     “The practice, which cuts across global cultures and religions, turns at least 14 million girls worldwide into child brides every year”.
     http://www.icrw.org/media/press-releases/press-release-report-investment-girls%E2%80%99-empowerment-key-ending-child-marriage
     “the issue of child marriage in India, home to one-third of the world’s child brides”.
     http://www.icrw.org/media/press-releases/new-study-shows-cash-incentives-are-not-enough-tackle-child-marriage.

439. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 4:09 pm

     What I will say, is that when I searched for “The International Center for Research on Women now estimates that there are 51 million child brides now living on planet Earth and almost all in Muslim countries”, all i found was site after site of it being quoted by anti-islamists.

440. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 4:10 pm

     Lee, perhaps you were right.

     I’m going outside to work in the garden.

441. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 4:11 pm

     One of my favourite ways to relax. Apology accepted, Mick.

442. Kaye LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 4:12 pm

     Thanks for the debunking of the child bride story mars08. I hope UniversalSoulJa took note and learns to question sources a little more.

     As Lee points out, educating girls and lifting people out of poverty is what is crucial. I haven’t heard one constructive suggestion from Reclaimers, just a lot of fear and stories about other countries. For someone to say that they are walking around in Australia in fear of being beheaded is ridiculous. To think that Australian women will be forced to wear burqas is just silly. Can we get past the shock tactics and at least be realistic about what you are trying to achieve?

     Foreign Aid to Sub-Saharan Africa was slashed by 70%, and aid to the Middle East was cut by 43%. Instead we are spending those billions on bombs. How will that help?

443. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 4:15 pm

     Also from the same site posted by CB above:
     “We know that investing in women and girls is crucial to eliminating global poverty and strengthening economies. That’s why we must place adolescent girls at the center of the next global development agenda – investing in their education, their health and their futures – to ensure real lasting progress.”

     Kaye made a very valid point about the Reclaimers. They are allegedly concerned about the child brides but are not worried about the cuts to foreign aid. As I’ve said many times before, we will know them by their actions. It’s a smokescreen to disguise their bigotry. They don’t have a single compelling argument between them to justify their position.

444. jimhazDecember 2, 2015 at 4:34 pm

     Wiki:
     Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[23]

     This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates — Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) — are Islamic majority countries.[16]

     More than half of all child marriages occur in the South Asian countries of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nepal.

445. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 4:38 pm

     Cherry picking again , why do you leave bits out ?
     The centre says “the majority are Muslim”
     The emphasis of the article was, because in this instance they were implementing a programme in India {with horrible child abuse as well
     Evaluation of a Conditional Cash Transfer Program
     Conditional Cash Transfer Program to Enhance the Value of Girls in Northern India
     “Currently, 720 million women alive worldwide were
     married as children. Child marriage is a violation of
     human rights and significantly hinders development outcomes for girls. Girls married early are vulnerable
     to intimate partner violence, sexual coercion, and early childbearing. Beyond the immediate physical and mental health risks, girls who marry early are excluded from education and economic opportunities. These adverse consequences to their health, education, and livelihoods are immense and long-lasting

     Read a little deeper
     http://www.icrw.org/sites/default/files/publications/IMPACCT%20Synopsis%20October%202015.pdf.pdf
     and the question above of what % , even 51% is 25 million kids

446. sampiper17December 2, 2015 at 5:08 pm

     So I take it every one that likes muslims approves and endorses, a book on pedophile, rapeing childen, marrying 6 to 9 yo girls. killing anyone that speaks out on how they treat women and people… sooo glad you lot approve of it all…where is the protesting on how muslims treat women? do i hear them on the street?? do i hear muslims protesting on the street to stop terrorists? nope we do not… I hope you all know, that their was an out cry on how the priests where pedophiles.. oh yes did people kick up a stink on that one, but little do they know that muslims PROMOTE IT! do you give an out cry over that? no you do not, do you cry out over how saudi arabia has the worlds worse treatment of people, no rights for women,chop their heads off,,they get raped, oh not the mans fault, it’s the woman’s fault, 200 lashes, if she lasts that long..no voting always wearing black, never to see the sunlight, and they come to australia, and try and impose what they left behind , into the country that allowed them to stay.. sharia law, no booze in the street shops, no ciggys, no music, no dancing,( no night clubs) and a few other things you are not allowed to do,groups of men roaming the streets beating any one up that breaks that law…oh yes you really want that in your neighbourhood don’t ya! buildings blaring out call to prayer, at 5am in the morning, do you really want to be woken up every day at 5am? nope don’t think so.lets not forget they getting money for ever and ever and not working,, your tax money is paying these people to live in australia for free, and their kids do it, their next door neighbours do it..the more money they take, the more tax you will be paying… and so instead of protesting about things you lot have no idea about, how about, open the pages of the internet, and have a look at what they are doing overseas..and in australia….

447. mars08December 2, 2015 at 5:20 pm

     UniversalSoulJa…. get back under your rock. Now you’re just humiliating yourself…

448. John MaycockDecember 2, 2015 at 5:36 pm

     Mars 08
     gee that’s original :-]
     Why is it when the questions don’t suit you, you come up with these “original thoughts ” regularly
     “get back under your rock” wow , that beats a committed answer
     why is it none of you have come out condemning the child brides ?
     could it be because the biggest percentage are Muslim ?
     Hey, did you get a watch ?
     simple
     are you opposed to child brides ?
     are you opposed to Islamic child brides ?
     does it turn your guts, like it does me ?
     just a yes or no will do
     Anyone else want to answer

449. Kaye LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 5:44 pm

     FFS I give up. It’s like discussing something with a film loop

450. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 5:52 pm

     why is it none of you have come out condemning the child brides ?

     If you mean the 51 million. I did condemn it, but also tried to put in perspective as you will find in detail in several posts under my name.

     could it be because the biggest percentage are Muslim ?

     If you mean, are people on this forum just apologists for the terrible things done under in the name of Islam, No.

     are you opposed to child brides ?

     I am opposed to anyone being forced into any sort of arrangement. I abhor child slavery, pedophilia and hyper-nationalist education and the filling of childrens minds with theories of cultural exceptionalism.

     are you opposed to Islamic child brides ?

     Yes. Are you opposed to Islamic child brides seeking refuge in Australia and then continuing to wear a hijab and go to mosques because they understand Islam is not the only factor in their trauma?

     does it turn your guts, like it does me ?

     I don’t know how your guts turn.

     just a yes or no will do

     No it most certainly will not. Yes and no answers are too simplistic for topics so complex and are a part of the reason there is too much hatred and misunderstanding.

     Anyone else want to answer

     See above.

451. MickDecember 2, 2015 at 5:56 pm

     Kaye Lee, I should have just stayed out in the garden.

452. corvus boreusDecember 2, 2015 at 6:06 pm

     I utterly condemn all forms of non-consensual wedlock or sexual intercourse, particularly when perpetrated against children.
     Marriage or sexual interaction with minors is not, and never should be, allowed to happen under Australian law, regardless of any claims for exceptions due to religious or cultural practice.
     The same goes for other clear atrocities like human slavery or the wanton slaughter of innocents.
     We should never, for example, base our laws on the question; ‘what would Moses do?’

453. mars08December 2, 2015 at 6:24 pm

     Why is it when the questions don’t suit you, you come up with these “original thoughts ” regularly

     I know you are, but what am I?

     (sigh)

454. Michael TaylorDecember 2, 2015 at 6:32 pm

     It’s amazing. Because we don’t like Reclaim Australia it apparently means we support child brides blah blah blah.

455. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 6:33 pm

     Gah!!! sampiper — the stupid — it burns!!!

     sampiper, try learning just a smidgen of your own language before you start ranting on about those who come from other cultures. Perhaps see a doctor about that verbal diarrhoea — looks to be a real problem. Also ask the doctor what you might do about loss of self determination. It must suck being a puppet of the Murdoch press and the “Reclaim” Australia halfwits.

     I despair of getting you bigoted “Reclaim” Australia dipshits to understand anything. You really don’t read the comments you reply to, do you. You just vomit out the garbage you’ve been fed by the happy little mind-f*cked racists before you. Geez!

456. mars08December 2, 2015 at 6:38 pm

     “Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.”

457. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 6:39 pm

     Admonishing myself, a saying comes to mind:
     Don’t wrestle a pig in a mudhole. You both get all dirty, and the pig enjoys it.

458. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 6:40 pm

     Very similar mars08 🙂

459. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 6:42 pm

     Kaye Lee
     “FFS I give up. It’s like discussing something with a film loop”
     wasn’t it you who raised the question , all over a poster on “kindy and brides”
     don’t like reality ?
     Michael Taylor
     “It’s amazing. Because we don’t like Reclaim Australia it apparently means we support child brides blah blah blah.”
     sort of equals out your earlier spurious argument
     “All Reclaimers have to be Climate Skeptics ” blah blah blah ,
     I’m not

460. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 6:52 pm

     I’ve saved a copy of sampiper’s blather as an example of how racist propaganda can make people stupid.

     Looking back on it and reading it again, it is truly an amazing piece, even overlooking all the bad spelling and grammar, the lack of thought exhibited is genuinely astonishing. It’s like he’s channelling Murdoch and his horrible Telegraph and Fox garbage. The poor bastard doesn’t seem to have one original thought in his empty damn head. It’s all been replaced by bullshit designed to make people angry and hurt others, while feeling that good is on his side. He is totally sucked in, chewed up, and spat out again, and he’s completely unaware of it.

     Truly a miracle of brainwashing. I’d be in awe of it if the intent wasn’t so deeply evil. It takes unwitting rubes like sampiper and turns them into idiot weapons against people. Ugly.

461. Kaye LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 6:59 pm

     “don’t like reality ?”

     If you have one skerrick of evidence of child brides or beheadings or any of your other fears happening in Australia then go to the police. If you have concerns about what is happening overseas then lobby the government to increase foreign aid. if you are worried about the subjugation of women then start looking at the sexism inherent in Australian society and join the campaign against the epidemic of domestic violence that IS happening right here. THAT is reality.

462. paul walterDecember 2, 2015 at 7:05 pm

     Sad derail.

     It is said that the age of child brides around the Horn of Africa region has has fallen by several years over the last generation or two as change renders an older mode of productive living obsolete and I think Kaye Lee therefore offers a means of retreival with the comment about aid being cut, because this alludes to the drastic economic conditions that people in the region must live under and that this is likely a result of western imperialism over the last century and more.

     PTSD?

463. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 7:08 pm

     Cue UniversalSoulJa: “Oh, but the Muslims…”

464. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 7:13 pm

     Sampiper, do Australia a big favour and don’t breed. You’re too stupid. As an Australian, I’m concerned about the dumbing down of our society. I don’t want to be surrounded by idiots.

465. corvus boreusDecember 2, 2015 at 7:31 pm

     It is now over 168 hours since I first raised the issue that ‘we claim straya’ is intimately intertwined with intolerant religious bigots and militant right-wing extremists, and not a single poster advocating their agenda has decried, denied or defended against this.
     I refer to having a speaking programme of not just shit-stirring fundamentalists but plain simple militant neo-nazis at ‘RA’ rallies.
     http://www.smh.com.au/national/blair-cottrell-leader-of-aussie-patriots-upf-wanted-hitler-in-the-classroom-20151016-gkbbvz.html

466. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 7:48 pm

     If bikies can be outlawed, Reclaim Australia should be outlawed too for giving these neo-nazis a platform.

467. Michael TaylorDecember 2, 2015 at 8:07 pm

     “All Reclaimers have to be Climate Skeptics ” blah blah blah ,
     I’m not

     Well you do have one good point then.

     It’s a start.

468. silkwormDecember 2, 2015 at 9:47 pm

     If you really want to defeat ISIS, then you must support the Europeans in adopting the widespread use of renewables so they can wean themselves off the oil that ISIS is supplying them with. (I bet they never discussed that in Paris.)

469. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 9:48 pm

     corvus boreus, does everyone on here sit around checking watches ?
     Sure some scumbags turn up at Reclaim rallies, but can you guarantee the people that turn up at any rally will be totally in step with your views .
     As for Lee, ban ’em ban ’em ban ’em
     so much for you supporting free speech
     Michael Taylor.
     I reckon you might even have to put me down as a moderate .
     First off, you really do , sometime, need to accept that more than 70% of people don’t want asylum seekers here and you sure aren’t winning the PR campaign everytime a Muslim beheads someone
     I would be a moderate as I didn’t support the cruel nature of the respondents to that survey

470. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 9:50 pm

     silkwormDecember 2, 2015 at 9:47 pm

     “If you really want to defeat ISIS,”
     or bombing them back to the stone age ,
     Thats where they want to be isn’t it ?

471. silkwormDecember 2, 2015 at 10:10 pm

     UniversalSoulJa is a troll from Bob Ellis’ Table Talk blog where he has posted under at least ten different aliases.

472. PCDecember 2, 2015 at 10:25 pm

     Bob Ellis is a traitor to the left: Bob Ellis is accused of being an embarrassment to the “left” of politics. I would agree with that statement but most probably because of a different reason proposed by those made from the bat shit crazy right of politics. (a.k.a Howard and those insane Abbott supporting Journalists) Ellis will got nuts, and by nuts he will himself go bat shit crazy if you present to him any evidence like diplomatic transcripts that show Beazley was happily tow the Liberal line when it came to American foreign policy in the aftermath of 9/11. Ellis is nothing more than a right wing Labor stooge.

473. chellyDecember 2, 2015 at 10:57 pm

     OK so this lady who wrote this is an athiest & doesnt care…. how typical of the way our country has gone to the She’ll be right attitude, so when ur daughters are raped, kidnapped & murdered & ur son is sodomiized then beheaded u will be ok with this will u???? Do you not watch the news & see the HORROR that these people create? They leave a wake of destruction & filth as they cross from country to country & by to the way lady who wrote this essay, Where are all the women & children among the THRONGS of immigrant muslims??? OH WAIT … u wont see them because they ARENT THERE, these so called peace loving immigrants are all soldiers for ISIS & ISIL, WHY are u so blind to the facts? We arent letting in those who are GENUINELY SUFFERING we are allowing the wealthy & healthy into our borders.. ok so maybe not so healthy because they have bought previously eliminated diseases back into the country … but sure its ok, let them all keep coming in, while families in ?Wollongong are homeless & jobless & HAVING TO BATH THEIR KIDS IN THE SURF to attend school, yep we need more refugees & immigrants who will be housed above those already suffering on our own shores. Lady are u serious??? Do u not want to KNOW if ur buying food that isnt made by the horrendous acts NECESSARY (according to muslims) to prepare their food? What the hell did they eat prior to Halal certification? Do you ENJOY knowing that the animals slaughtered to put food on ur table are terrorised before they are finally killed?? Do you not see that this certification is a total WROUGHT on the Australian economy, we were able to export foods all over the world prior to this Halal nonsense, so why now is it expected when a simple prayer over the meal can be done to make the food edible by muslim people, or do u just want to see that Mohammad Elmaggot continue to get wealthy on his halal extortion racket???? Did u not read that his own WIFE was in the Lindt store in Martin Place a mere 5 minutes before that horrendous episode, or is she just an innocent bystander.. i think NOT, i think that woman INSTIGATED her will on Lindt because they refused to be Halal certified!!!

     What makes u think, Lady author, that the muslims who come here wont commit the same HEINOUS crimes against the women of our country? Women are nothing in their country & it has been proven time & time again that muslims in Australia think that Sharia law overrides Australian law, are u serious?? REALLY because they havent hurt u YET it makes it ok for them to commit these crimes in the name of Mohammad??? it makes it ok for the extremists to MURDER, rape, belittle, name call, intimidate because it hasnt touched u personally????? Lady ur off the planet!!!!

474. UniversalSoulJaDecember 2, 2015 at 11:05 pm

     “UniversalSoulJa is a troll from Bob Ellis’ Table Talk blog where he has posted under at least ten different aliases.”
     Silkworm ,
     You are so full of bullshit, I haven’t ever heard of Bob Ellis Table Talk let alone post on there
     If someone used 10 different aliases as you assume, how would you know ?
     Did Bob Ellis tell you ?
     The editor of this site would have my ip address, if he would like I will quite willingly provide my personal details to him ..
     I now await you putting up or shutting up with your ridiculous claim
     Is lying a way you try to validate arguments ?
     Waiting………………….
     I challenge you .
     Prove your rubbish and I will donate $1000 to MSF , through the editor , fail and you do the same

475. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 11:23 pm

     ” Do u not want to KNOW if ur buying food that isnt made by the horrendous acts NECESSARY (according to muslims) to prepare their food? ”

     Is it extremely easy to buy meat that is not halal certified. Most butchers and supermarkets sell it. If you don’t want to eat something, then be an adult and don’t buy it. There’s no need to dictate what everyone else must eat just to suit you. There are plenty of examples of animals raised by non-Muslims in this country that are treated inhumanely too. But I’ll bet you’re not so concerned about that so as to turn to veganism.

476. Matters NotDecember 2, 2015 at 11:34 pm

     chelly’s ‘effort’ demonstrates that ‘common sense’ is neither ‘common’ nor ‘sensible’.

     But it does emphasise that ‘mental health’ is a serious issue.

     Personally, I blame teachers and the education system in general for failing to develop ‘critical consciousness’.

     But perhaps the ‘issue’ of nonsense has deeper roots that the education system?

477. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 11:39 pm

     “What makes u think, Lady author, that the muslims who come here wont commit the same HEINOUS crimes against the women of our country? Women are nothing in their country & it has been proven time & time again that muslims in Australia think that Sharia law overrides Australian law, are u serious?? REALLY because they havent hurt u YET it makes it ok for them to commit these crimes in the name of Mohammad??? it makes it ok for the extremists to MURDER, rape, belittle, name call, intimidate because it hasnt touched u personally????? ”

     If you bothered to check your facts, you would realise that Muslims have resided in Australia since the mid 1800s. They’re not exactly creating havoc in large numbers. Most of the news reports we read of Australian women being murdered by their partners or former partners don’t involve murder by Muslims. I haven’t been abused by a Muslim. But I have been abused by someone who considers himself to be a Christian. Using your logic, women should just abstain totally from all relationships with men.

     Also, if you bothered to check your facts, you would know that Sharia law only applies to Muslims and not to non-Muslims. Australia has a separation of church and state. Sharia law cannot override the laws of our country.

     Why is it acceptable for Reclaim Australia extremists to murder, rape, belittle, name call and intimidate others?

478. Miriam EnglishDecember 2, 2015 at 11:42 pm

     Chelly/sampiper, it might be worth actually reading the things someone writes before attempting to criticise what they say. Try it sometime. You might expand your worldview beyond that narrow racist sliver you’re peering through.

479. LeeDecember 2, 2015 at 11:43 pm

     “chelly’s ‘effort’ demonstrates that ‘common sense’ is neither ‘common’ nor ‘sensible’.

     But it does emphasise that ‘mental health’ is a serious issue.”

     Also lack of education and critical thinking ability. But hey, these same people voted for cuts to education and health for all but the most wealthy.

480. PCDecember 2, 2015 at 11:44 pm

     An animal must be tortured under Nauru standards (Jesus loving Christians standards) otherwise I’m not going to eat it because I can’t get into heaven any other God-loving way.

     Kind regards
     A. F. Psychopath

481. Matters NotDecember 2, 2015 at 11:53 pm

     While I believe that ‘mental health’ is a serious issue so is the use of ‘mind bending’ drugs.

     Would chelly care to comment? And without ‘shouting’, using structured sentences and the like. After all, this site doesn’t normally proceed in the same way as a Reclaim Australia rally.

     By the way, what are (some) contributors trying to ‘reclaim’?

482. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 12:02 am

     Matters Not, education has become obsessed with tests, uniformity, and rules. The poor teachers, against their will I think, have become straitjacketed by a system implemented by bureaucrats at the behest of politicians. But I don’t think we can blame any of that for chelly/sampiper’s lack of command of English, nor his appalling inability to think clearly.

     His critical faculties have been destroyed by Murdoch media. That’s something that happens to much smarter people than him on repeated exposure to it.

     I suspect that he is either not a native English speaker or else rarely reads or writes (and if either is the case I shouldn’t have sneered at him for his lack of English). I notice that he is making a bit more effort now to actually string words into coherent sentences and spell-check. Good for you, chelly/sampiper. Now just start thinking clearly and we can have a useful discussion.

483. Matters NotDecember 3, 2015 at 12:15 am

     Miriam English, I write with ‘tongue firmly in cheek’, almost all of the time.

     But I will take issue with the notion that:

     critical faculties have been destroyed by Murdoch media

     A robust ‘critical consciousness’ education should be able to withstand the Murdoch media. But I agree, to date it has failed. But perhaps not completely because there’s so many on this site have been able to rise ‘above’.

     Miriam, (as an aside) I’ve been down this path on any number of occasions.

484. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 12:17 am

     I’m really puzzled by the repeated obsession with halal food of the “Reclaim” Australia loons. I don’t understand why it has them so worked up. We have kosher food for Jewish people, diabetic food for people with sugar problems, vegetarian food for people who don’t like killing animals, peanut-free food for people at risk of anaphylactic shock from peanuts, low sodium foods, low fat foods, gluten-free foods…

     Other than the association with Muslims, I can’t see any reason to keep harping on about halal food. Is racism really that powerful? Has Fox TV been doing big specials recently, filling these poor bastards’ brains with confused drivel about everybody being forced to eat halal food? What is going on?

485. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 12:30 am

     Is racism really that powerful?

     Yes. Remember Australian history. These people aren’t just brainwashed by mainstream media. They have grown up Australia. They don’t need any help. It is rife with it. The press is capitalising on what is already there as well as being created by people who grew up with similar views. This is an intergenerational issue.

     Is racism that powerful?

     Think Auschwitz. Think Apartheid. Think Ku Klux Klan. Think ISIS.

     It is just a very extreme parochialism. Something everybody can feel, but when fostered or neglected like an infection it festers and may end up very, very nasty indeed. Think rabies.

486. Matters NotDecember 3, 2015 at 12:44 am

     Miriam, it seems to me we ‘view the world’ (give meanings) through ‘conceptual’ frameworks.

     One concept that is underplayed or not understood is that of ‘ethnocentrism’.

     judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one’s own culture. Ethnocentric individuals judge other groups relative to their own ethnic group or culture, especially with concern for language, behaviour, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and subdivisions serve to define each ethnicity’s unique cultural identity. Ethnocentrism may be overt or subtle, and while it is considered a natural proclivity of human psychology, it has developed a generally negative connotation

     We are all ‘ethnocentric’ to a greater or lesser degree (it’s inescapable) but ‘educated’ people understand that when they make ‘judgements’ and temper same.

     And try to rise above it. As far as possible.

487. silkwormDecember 3, 2015 at 12:45 am

     Miriam English – Pauline Hanson, amongst others, having been telling people that the money collected from halal certification is being sent overseas to fund ISIS.

488. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 12:48 am

     Matter Not, no worries. 🙂

     I do think you overestimate people’s ability to resist brainwashing, though. A recent Kickstarter crowdfunded project produced a documentary titled “The Brainwashing of my Dad”. It tells the story of Jen Senko’s father, who used to be a smart, gentle, progressive, tolerant person until he got a job where he had to drive a long distance to and from work each day, and listened to talkback radio along the way. The metamorphosis into a ranting bigoted racist was amazing.

     I’ve seen a similar thing happen to my brother. He used to be a very tolerant person, but after watching Fox on TV while doing work at home (he adds to his pension by doing washing and ironing for the local doctor) he has developed some frankly racist and intolerant attitudes and some very weird ideas, such as that Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were allies, and that Wikileaks are terrorists. These are things straight out of the Murdoch slag-heap.

     I normally don’t read newspapers, other than New Scientist, but a little while ago while I was waiting on someone, my eyes wandered to a nearby newspaper, and because I’m a compulsive reader, before long I’d consumed an article about some guy who’d had a car accident. The article had surreptitiously inserted a number of opinions about heavy penalties for some things and I was nodding my head, thinking to myself how terrible, and that this was outrageous, when I suddenly came to myself and realised that I’d been on the verge of thinking that victims should be further victimised by the law. I consider myself someone who is unusually resistant to brainwashing and it had almost got me in just a simple casual reading.

     Ever since I was a schoolkid I’ve been very interested in brainwashing and understand the techniques: you present someone with a dilemma with strong emotional content (fear seems to work best, but anger works well too) then when the subject is worked up, present them with a single way out; a solution that appears to make the problem disappear. But even I find it difficult to resist the nasty mind-altering garbage from these sources. It should carry a health warning like cigarettes do (I’m only half-joking about the health warning).

     Smart people are messed with by Murdoch’s garbage. Imagine what it must do to the minds of people with the mental ability of poor chelly/sampiper!!

489. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 12:59 am

     silkworm, interesting. I’d expect that of Pauline Hanson, but where did she get the bullshit from? And how are others getting it from her? I guess she’s getting lots of exposure on Murdoch’s putrid media and they’re spreading the disease.

490. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 1:02 am

     Mick, “Think Auschwitz. Think Apartheid. Think Ku Klux Klan. Think ISIS.”
     Point taken. I should never underestimate racism.

491. Adrianne HaddowDecember 3, 2015 at 6:03 am

     @ Miriam English. Yep the anti halal crew amaze me as well.

     Halal food features large in the antiMuslim campaign. Despite the fact that halal certification created huge markets in Indonesia and Malaysia,and a lucrative contract with Emirate airlines, some food producers were so harassed by the Facebook crusaders, that they gave up their certification and lost lucrative international markets.
     The makers of Vegemite resisted the hate messages on their Facebook site with a campaign of their own “Spread the love”.

     ABC’s Four Corners did a program about halal food this year or last. The program was an attempt to quell the lies spread by these dolts and to explain what their propaganda was doing to our food export market.

     Facebook seems to be the place where the misinformation is spread. A woman I worked with got all her ‘best’ arguments about Islam from Facebook posts.

     The most vocal anti-halal campaigner (a women whose name I chose to forget but is now a face in the anti Islamic party inspired by Geert Wilder’s visit to Australia) was, at one time, a Christian missionary in Africa and Indonesia.

     So, it’s OK to proselytise in foreign countries if you’re a Christian. Then spread the hate when you get back home.

492. corvus boreusDecember 3, 2015 at 6:16 am

     Universal SoulJa,
     ‘Sure some scumbags turn up at Reclaim rallies’.
     Yes they do, especially since religious bigots and political extremists feature heavily both as both as senior organisers and official speakers of ‘reclaim’, not merely as gate-crashing tag-alongs.
     This is why the subject should be addressed rather than avoided.
     To clarify, my views are not ‘totally in step’ with the stated ‘we-claim straya’ agenda, and for all my distaste for the Islamic variant of the Abrahamic creed (dick-god crap), I will not jump into your bag of mixed-nut extremists.
     A bunch of ill-informed, uber-nationalistic flag-fetishists, braying moronic slogans and waving false claims on mis-spelt signs, orchestrated by the cynical political ambitions of hardline god-lobbyists and right-wing street thugs.

493. Kaye LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 6:46 am

     “Sure some scumbags turn up at Reclaim rallies” but they don’t represent my views. How often do you hear that excuse from Reclaimers about the neo-nazis they are associating with? I wonder if it ever occurs to them that the 1.7 billion Muslims in the world are not represented by a small group of teenage thugs with a blood lust.

494. Adrianne HaddowDecember 3, 2015 at 7:19 am

     Can anyone with access to the department of education’s anti-radicalisation material tell me if racist groups such as UPF and the reclaim movement are given as case studies.
     Or is it only environmental activists and Muslim youth who need de-radicalisation?

495. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 7:27 am

     ‘So, it’s OK to proselytise in foreign countries if you’re a Christian. Then spread the hate when you get back home.’

     It’s kind of expected. This is all classic shadow casting. Projecting onto others things you do or have done and hating them for it.

     Come by boat/come from immigrant family…check.

     Be a part of intolerant religion…check

     Have widespread child abuse in society…check

     violent colonialism…check

     Come from a country where women die regularly from violence in a domestic environment…check

     Blow people up…check

     Participate in extreme wars for untruthful causes…check

     Live in propaganda saturated environment…check

     It’s such a shame these people are making it so hard to halt the progress of extremism.

496. Kaye LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 7:37 am

     Adrianne, yes they do mention racist groups, not naming them specifically.

     “Violent extremists in Australia are often motivated by political beliefs, supported by particular ideologies. This may include right-wing or nationalist extremists who aim to preserve the perceived majority culture at the expense of other cultures. These individuals justify their use of violence based on patriotism or a belief in their superiority to other cultures and races.

     In Australia there are a small number of extreme nationalist groups, some of which promote Neo-Nazi type beliefs. They are sometimes called ‘hate’ groups because of their negative racist propaganda, and their beliefs which are often anti-immigration, anti-Semitic or anti-Islamic. While their beliefs are offensive to many, their words and actions are not necessarily unlawful. Using or advocating violence to promote these or other beliefs, however, is always against the law.”

     http://www.livingsafetogether.gov.au/informationadvice/Documents/preventing-violent-extremism-and-radicalisation-in-australia.pdf

497. Adrianne HaddowDecember 3, 2015 at 7:48 am

     Thanks Kaye.
     I didn’t think about checking on the net. Duh!

498. Kaye LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 7:56 am

     Of course that fool Keenan had to open his big mouth…

     Mr Keenan said the main targets of the booklet were young people at risk of being radicalised by Islamist groups such as Islamic State.

     “Of course radicalisation can take different forms but certainly their radicalisation that comes from contact with ISIL (Islamic State) – who make an enormous effort to groom people, particularly young people to commit violent acts here in Australia – is of primary concern to the government at the moment.”

     One would have thought social cohesion would have been their primary concern but I guess not when you have worked so hard to instil fear and hatred.

     “THE opposition immigration spokesman, Scott Morrison, urged the shadow cabinet to capitalise on the electorate’s growing concerns about “Muslim immigration”, “Muslims in Australia” and the “inability” of Muslim migrants to integrate.

     Mr Morrison’s suggestion was made at a meeting in December at which shadow ministers were asked to bring three ideas for issues on which the Coalition should concentrate its political attack during this parliamentary term.”

     http://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-sees-votes-in-antimuslim-strategy-20110216-1awmo.html#ixzz3tCRO59fi

     This deliberate strategy is despicable but effective – just shows the type of man who now holds the keys to the common wealth. What a self-serving bastard!

499. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 8:15 am

     The most dangerous man in Australian politics. Iused

500. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 8:18 am

     I used to fear Costello becoming leader, as number-for-brains would have been less able to conceal his glee at the destruction of the world for his own means than John Howardefinitelyisinthebestinterestofmeandmypoliticalambitions.

     Morrsion is dangerous.

501. UniversalSoulJaDecember 3, 2015 at 8:23 am

     Kaye Lee

     There you go again with your radical Islam apologist stuff ,
     just a bunch of pimply teens rubbish,
     Or your tired line “but it didn’t happen in Australia”
     Some have but a big one , NOT YET
     You claim you are a “world citizen” so doesn’t what happens elsewhere concern you
     Here is some information and a pretty full history on CNN
     BUT, It doesn’t sing from the same hymn sheet as you so I won’t hold my breath waiting

     “But some nations with relatively small Muslim populations have sent a disproportionately large number of jihadis. Finland, Ireland and Australia have the highest number of foreign fighters per capita, although Finnish security officials say a minority of Finns in their count went for humanitarian reasons.”

     http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/08/world/isis-fast-facts/

502. KyranDecember 3, 2015 at 8:27 am

     There are so many aspects of this thread that seem problematic due to the ‘new normal’ conflict of fact V ideology. The hatred being spread about an entire religion due to the activities of some extremist nutters hiding behind some aspects of that religion is not new. In previous decades, the insecure in the Australian community have felt threatened by migrants. We used to have leaders that would address those insecurities with facts. The Howard/Hanson era changed that forever.
     The senate committee has released its report into Halal certification. Its most significant recommendation appears to be that the government should take over the administration. Not all of the submissions will be made public due to their levels of discriminatory content! Two points that were made;
     “Halal certification is purely a commercial exchange, and represents a considerable economic opportunity for Australian food exporting businesses.”
     “In regards to the dispersion of funds, the report stated that “there is no direct link between halal certification in Australia and terrorism funding”.
     http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-01/government-should-overhaul-halal-industry-says-senate-committee/6991898
     If I were a gambler, I would be betting that the report will be cherry picked by opportunists to validate their insecurities. And round and round and round we go. Take care

503. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 8:29 am

     ” I’d expect that of Pauline Hanson, but where did she get the bullshit from? And how are others getting it from her? I guess she’s getting lots of exposure on Murdoch’s putrid media and they’re spreading the disease.”

     The racism has always been there. Australia still treats the indigenous population very badly, despite many Australians adhering to the belief that we are not a racist nation. Take some racists, particularly those who lack critical thinking skills, who are information illiterate, add in some propaganda and it’s like adding fuel to a fire. Social media gives these people a voice, allows them to readily keep in contact with like-minded people, allows easy access to an unlimited amount of false information and the movement grows. We’re seeing the same with anti-science, anti-vaccination, anti-GMO, turpentine-drinking, bleach enema-giving, tin foil hat-wearing nutjobs. Toss in some mental illness and they’re even worse.

     Both groups only source information that agrees with their own point of view and reject anything else that doesn’t support it. All of the Reclaim Australia supporters who have posted in this thread have not asked once for data to support our views. In contrast, a number of the regulars here have asked for evidence to support the Reclaim Australia position and, quite unsurprisingly,it has been somewhat lacking.

504. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 8:32 am

     Also I’d like to add that for many years, the only terror group on ASIO’s terrorist list that had actually committed acts of terror on Australian soil was Jack van Tongeren’s AWNU. These days the list only includes Islamic fundamentalists.

     I can understand peoples fears. We have been at war in the middle east for 25 years or so, but these people are being misdirected into fantasy of hatred. It’s too easy considering Australia’s history as a nation of white supremacists. Then when confronted about that history, the wagons go in a circle and they start repeating words at you like children. Call them bigots, and they call you a bigot. Call them racist and they say you’re racist against Aussies. Jimmy Barnes was called a bigot for his gentle rebuke. I mean what did they expect from a man who has promoted acceptance of our place in Asia since the seventies. It’s sad. John Williamson has even been accused of being a coward and un-Australian. John Williamson, FFS!

505. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 8:51 am

     UniversalSoulJa

     CNN!!!

     Are you for real?

     I have tried to be as descriptive as I can in reply to your posts, and I fear you read my point about us NOT being apologists for fundamentalist Islam and proven the point of my last post, and used the schoolyard tactic of I know you are you said you are so what am I.

     I’ll tell you what you are. You are an angry man who believes too much of the bullshit that too many people in this world believe. Namely that you can judge everything based on the limited experience you have had.

     I want to repeat.
     NOBODY HERE SUPPORTS ISIS.

     NOBODY SUPPORTS FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM.
     NOBODY HERE SUPPORTS THE RADICALISATION OF YOUTH, NO MATTER WHETHER BY ISIS OR UPF.

     BUT NOBODY HERE SUPPORTS THE DEMONISATION OF ISLAM AS A WHOLE BECAUSE PEOPLE HERE SEE THAT THE VICTIMS OF ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST ARE MOSTLY ISLAMIC AND THEY SUFFER AT THEIR HANDS ON A FAR MORE REGULAR BASIS THAN ANY OTHER GROUP.

     Are you happy now you’ve got a reaction. I can’t wait to see which part of this you ignore.

     If you really care about about helping Australia get through this, and I sincerely believe in your own way that you do, please, please, please don’t get your information from CNN!

     It’s the equivalent of CCTV in China.

     Go and get some counselling.

506. Kaye LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 8:54 am

     “radical Islam apologist stuff”

     What rubbish. I do not condone violence, intolerance and hatred in any circumstances.

     “just a bunch of pimply teens”

     Sadly, that’s what many of them are. But they are being seduced and used by men with their own agenda which I suspect has a lot more to do with capitalism than Islam.

     “doesn’t what happens elsewhere concern you”

     Absolutely which is why I have said that slashing foreign aid and spending the money on weapons instead is completely the WRONG thing to do. That is why I have specifically named the child protection and education programs that have been cut and the withdrawal of aid from Africa and the Middle East – two areas who really need help to lift their people out of poverty and to educate their girls and empower their women.

     “your tired line “but it didn’t happen in Australia””

     Risk management is about assessing comparative risk. I am far more likely to be killed or injured by my partner than by a terrorist. Every time I get in my car I am far more likely to be killed or injured than I am in a terrorist attack. In fact I am more likely to die from a mosquito bite, shark attack, or falling out of bed than I am from any form of terrorism.

     The best way to prevent radicalisation is to have a tolerant inclusive society where all people are respected. Societies can evolve peacefully if we get rid of the unnecessary fear and hatred based on ignorance and propaganda. As I said before, we will never be immune from tragedy but let’s get some perspective and reality in the discussion rather than irrational fear about something that hasn’t happened.

507. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 8:59 am

     “Morrsion is dangerous.”

     I don’t even like the look of that guy. There’s something about his appearance to me that exudes evil. I spent some years attending an AOG church as my ex-husband and most of his immediate family were members. They are given a steady diet of “religious tolerance is the work of Satan”. Of course, that logic is never applied to Christianity. It’s just assumed that their beliefs are correct. It doesn’t occur to them that other religions are using the same twisted logic to arrive at the same conclusion about their own beliefs. The AOG church is a hotbed of conspiracy theorists too and anything they don’t understand or that doesn’t support their views is the work of Satan. As a church they are more popular with young, impressionable, troubled people due to the happy, clappy atmosphere so they are in an ideal position to poison young minds.

508. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 9:13 am

     “I want to repeat.
     NOBODY HERE SUPPORTS ISIS.

     NOBODY SUPPORTS FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM.
     NOBODY HERE SUPPORTS THE RADICALISATION OF YOUTH, NO MATTER WHETHER BY ISIS OR UPF.

     BUT NOBODY HERE SUPPORTS THE DEMONISATION OF ISLAM AS A WHOLE BECAUSE PEOPLE HERE SEE THAT THE VICTIMS OF ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST ARE MOSTLY ISLAMIC AND THEY SUFFER AT THEIR HANDS ON A FAR MORE REGULAR BASIS THAN ANY OTHER GROUP.”

     Dude, you’re wasting your time. If Universal Arsewipe was interested in the truth, he could have read it by now and he would be asking for evidence rather than just making shit up. He’s not interested because it doesn’t support his own prejudices.

509. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 9:33 am

     I know. But, it’s about planting seeds, and man, that CNN comment just drove me to CAPS.

510. Kaye LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 9:44 am

     The irony is galling.

     Reclaimers warn that Muslims are trying to impose their culture and beliefs on us when it is the exact opposite. Reclaimers want to stop Muslims from freedom of worship, the right to choose what they eat and wear.

     They demand that we denounce radical Islam but in fact they are against all Islam. One posted a photo with an article claiming it showed the wedding of 450 little girls. This was a total fabrication. Was there any acknowledgement of their error? No. If we can at least teach them to check the validity of their sources it would be a good start. If we can get them thinking about solutions rather than just spewing hate would also be good. Getting them to actually think about if their lives have really changed hopefully might give them some perspective.

     The teacher in me refuses to give up.

511. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 9:51 am

     The thing about that image Kaye Lee was that it was debunked by Palestinians, which is therefore inadmissable as evidence. It’d be like listening to a Muslim about matters related to the Koran. Clearly the only people with the tools for interpreting an ancient Arabic document is working class white speak-english-or-f*ck-off Australians. Glad we cleared that up. Now, off you go, get back to brainwashing your students with your apologist nonsense and ruining Australia and stuff.

512. Adrianne HaddowDecember 3, 2015 at 10:07 am

     The reclaimists could try reclaiming Australia from the People’s Republic of China.

     Their CHAFTA agreements with a complicit LNP government regarding Chinese investment in farming land, sea ports, mining ventures and housing, and their ability to import unlimited Chinese workers to operate those ventures, will affect Australian’s way of life much more than the Muslim people who have grown up here.

     So will the provisions of many of the other ‘free’ trade agreements that our forward thinking coalition has signed. They might also like to question the wisdom of agreements with a government believed to be responsible for hacking one of our government’s main computer systems.

     Or have I opened another can of worms by giving them another excuse to spread the hate?

513. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 10:17 am

     UniversalSoulJa, have you considered that many of the young men going to fight with Daesh (ISIS) are going for the adventure and the chance to kill people for real? I know of at least one person who did this, although he didn’t join Daesh, but a Yank mercenary murder squad. That was literally his reasoning: real life adventure and the ability to kill people. I’m tempted to think, good bloody riddance, but then I realise that there is virtually no difference among any people on Earth. Genetically, we are almost identical (this is why the claims of racists are so damn absurd). We need to fix this bloodthirst instead of feeding it.

     In case you believe young white guys don’t have that “lets go out in a blast of glory” attitude try reading this enlightening piece about a couple of young christian guys inspired by racism who wanted to leave a swathe of death (they planned for 88 shootings and 14 beheadings) in a killing spree across USA.
     http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jun/06/barack-obama-racism-assassination
     There has certainly been a bit of an upsurge of these kinds of morons in USA lately — I’m guessing because of the promotion of racism by the irresponsible assholes in the “conservative” side of their government.

     We may be facing a similar increase here in Australia if we don’t work out how to control the mindless braying of those filled with racist hate, and censure any scum in government seeking to gain advantage from it. We need a way to accelerate the collapse of Murdoch’s disgusting media before they wreak further lasting damage upon our society. Other USA-driven, self-serving, racist propaganda needs to be legally challenged somehow when they work to radicalise people and stoke the fires of hate. USA is rapidly becoming a major source of some of the most dangerous influences on the planet, right up there with radical Islam, with whom they seem to have a synergistic action — each reinforcing the other’s worst attributes.

514. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 10:25 am

     Adrianne Haddow, yep, that’s already in their list of what they say they stand for. It’s just been overshadowed by the hysterical chanting about Islam.

515. diannaartDecember 3, 2015 at 10:27 am

     I am sure that Reclaimers who care so deeply about child brides are equally concerned at the indefinite detention of children held by the Australian government in concentration camps – they just forgot to mention that our own governments can behave in ways that can only be described as ‘unAustralian’.

     I realise that focussing on unforgivable behaviour by one group leaves little resource to cope with local crimes.

516. mars08December 3, 2015 at 10:49 am

     The mindless hateful rubbish spewed by chelly and sampiper17 makes one thing very clear… there are people in this country who will shit their pants at the thought of anything vaguely Islamic.

     With the help of a sensationalist and lazy politicians, the are cringing in fear. They are terrified. Permanently terrorised by their own wilful ignorance.

     Never mind what is happening on Iraq/Syria border. These stupid bigots have become victims of the own delusions. And they insist on remaining that way.

     It can be said that the terrorists have already won. And the tools who cling to RA and UPF handed them the victory.

517. silkwormDecember 3, 2015 at 10:57 am

     They’re out to get us!

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etx-nDCZzLo

518. UniversalSoulJaDecember 3, 2015 at 11:19 am

     Kaye Lee,
     this is what makes it seem apologist or just downright wrong
     “1.7 billion Muslims in the w.orld are not represented by a small group of teenage thugs with a blood lust.”
     The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights estimates that the force {ISIS} numbers around 80,000–100,000 total (up to 50,000 in Syria and 30,000 in Iraq)

     Throw in all the other Islamic terror groups world wide and its hardly a “small group”

519. UniversalSoulJaDecember 3, 2015 at 11:22 am

     Ringworm ,
     Are you avoiding me ?
     Are you prepared to admit you lied ?

     Take up the bet and I will personally contact Bob Ellis

520. Kaye LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 12:04 pm

     Let’s assume 170,000 ISIS fighters to make the maths easier. That is 0.01% of the Muslim population. Numbers of Australians who have joined them vary but let’s use 240. That is about 0.001% of the population. I consider those small enough groups to not be considered representative.

     The atrocities committed by this group are one of the very reasons they will not survive. They are an epidemic that will be contained and defeated but not by hate and bombs. Teenagers are vulnerable because they are not good at assessing risks, they are impulsive. We need to offer them a better life.

521. Michael TaylorDecember 3, 2015 at 12:13 pm

     Ringworm ,
     Are you avoiding me ?

     That’s not the sort of comment that encourages or deserves a response. If you want respect shown, it would be an idea to start showing some yourself.

522. mars08December 3, 2015 at 12:23 pm

     The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights “estimates” those numbers? Well that’s okay then…
     http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4132772

523. UniversalSoulJaDecember 3, 2015 at 12:37 pm

     Michael Taylor, what about the crap I am waiting for a response to , surely honestly plays a role , I mean this exchange
     “UniversalSoulJa is a troll from Bob Ellis’ Table Talk blog where he has posted under at least ten different aliases.”
     Silkworm ,
     You are so full of bullshit, I haven’t ever heard of Bob Ellis Table Talk let alone post on there
     If someone used 10 different aliases as you assume, how would you know ?
     Did Bob Ellis tell you ?
     The editor of this site would have my ip address, if he would like I will quite willingly provide my personal details to him ..
     I now await you putting up or shutting up with your ridiculous claim
     Is lying a way you try to validate arguments ?
     Waiting………………….
     I challenge you .
     Prove your rubbish and I will donate $1000 to MSF , through the editor , fail and you do the same
     Or is it alright to make outlandish claims on the AIMN?

524. UniversalSoulJaDecember 3, 2015 at 12:40 pm

     Mars 08 ,
     Still more than a “small group” no matter how you cherry pick

525. MickDecember 3, 2015 at 12:43 pm

     UniversalSoulJa, what is your solution?

     If the old adage, that the first casualty of war is the truth, is true, (in in time of war is that even true…{{{brain explodes}}}…)how can people be so ready to judge.

526. Michael TaylorDecember 3, 2015 at 12:46 pm

     Isn’t moving on a far better response?

527. mars08December 3, 2015 at 12:56 pm

     Oh, so i cherry pick? Really?

528. jimhazDecember 3, 2015 at 1:03 pm

     [Let’s assume 170,000 ISIS fighters to make the maths easier]

     A small group of violent people can control many others.

     Need to include African mobs. I would expect muslim imperialistic killings there over the next 2 decades to be well over a million. Hope I just being pessimistic.

     And if UN sanctions killed 200k kids in Iraq, ISIS leaders would indirectly kill at least double that in Iraq alone.

     [We need to offer them a better life here]

     They have the same opportunity for a decent life here as any other immigrant group or any bogan group.

     Its Middle Eastern cultural and religious machoism that gets in the way. Kids may be the same the world over – but these people have often directly experienced unchecked machoism and its resulting destruction and pain. Anyone here who argued against the new laws against bikies where this middle eastern machoism becomes extreme, was a twit.

     Clearly many young (and old) men are suffering existential crisis issues, nihilism and disassociation. Many of the mass shootings in the US seem to be the result of this. Many of the ISIL adherents from western countries seem to be the same. I think this may be an offshoot of repressed masculinity due to capitalism – individual men no longer have a truly important day to day role, the necessity of hard labour but distracting survival effort has gone, and so to have many of the top down forces that aid self-discipline and conformity – but we unsatisfied low status men (yep me) all want to be heroes and/or to have power of some form so we get lost in violent fantasies. It’s just much easier for muslims and yanks to make those fantasies real, whereas most of the rest of us rely on sports, video games, books, movies, porn etc to appease our more animalistic masculine desires. Women on the other hand wish to become heroes of mothering and love – so they worry and whinge and belittle men on websites about their control failings – not just about true crimes like physical domestic violence that need to be talked about, but about minimal real impact PC stuff as well. Clementine Ford, Van Badham would appear to be prime examples – they do not understand or accept the difference between male and female chemistry. I dunno, maybe a bad period day for a women is a typical low social status males day.

529. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 1:47 pm

     Wow. jimhaz. You really have no clue. Just try reading the threats and comments against Clementine Ford for doing what men so often say about standing up for one’s self instead of wimping out. Well, she stood up for herself and as a result gets every name in the book thrown at her and threats of all kinds of physical violence, including rape and murder. And to you she is just to be dismissed as some stupid female having a bad period day. Well, I honestly hope you don’t have a female partner or breed, if that’s the kind of attitude you’d subject them to.

     We need better role models for the young men of today. Our politicians are doing an abysmal job of it, movie makers are also performing really badly, the mainstream media are scraping the bottom of the barrel with people like Alan Jones and similar fools. It needs to become monumentally embarrassing for a man to say such things about a woman, in a similar way that admitting to a permanently limp dick might be. Attacking a woman needs to be seen as a slight upon their own manhood.

     It needs to be seen as macho that they defend those being bullied.

530. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 1:51 pm

     jimhaz, I know plenty of polite, courageous, intelligent, helpful, non-violent, low-status males. Your argument doesn’t appear to follow.

531. jimhazDecember 3, 2015 at 3:35 pm

     @ Miriam

     [Wow. jimhaz. You really have no clue]

     Yes, Dear. 🙂

532. Kaye LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 4:47 pm

     jimhaz,

     I have to agree with Miriam. Your summation of Australian men certainly doesn’t fit the men in my life.

     “a bad period day for a women is a typical low social status males day”

     I fail to see any sense at all in that statement. Are you equating menstruation with low self-esteem? Are you suggesting that violent thoughts and actions are the same as menstruating? Do you believe social status is crucial for someone to feel good about themselves?

     Perhaps you should avoid generalisations

533. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 5:30 pm

     “Clementine Ford, Van Badham would appear to be prime examples – they do not understand or accept the difference between male and female chemistry. I dunno, maybe a bad period day for a women is a typical low social status males day.”

     So Jimhaz, what is your excuse for having a bad period day every day? A lot of men threaten to kill Clementine Ford because she dares to speak out against domestic violence. Real men don’t do that, nor do they condone it.

534. John MaycockDecember 3, 2015 at 5:57 pm

     I just watched the obligatory celebratory video of the peace loving followers upholding the faith
     Islamic State group targets gays with brutal public killings

     REYHANLI, Turkey (AP) — Before a crowd of men on a street in the Syrian city of Palmyra, the masked Islamic State group judge read out the sentence against the two men convicted of homosexuality: They would be thrown to their deaths from the roof of the nearby Wael Hotel.

     He asked one of the men if he was satisfied with the sentence. Death, the judge told him, would help cleanse him of his sin. “I’d prefer it if you shoot me in the head,” 32-year-old Hawas Mallah replied helplessly. The second man, 21-year-old Mohammed Salameh, pleaded for a chance to repent, promising never to have sex with a man again, according to a witness among the onlookers that sunny July morning

535. mars08December 3, 2015 at 6:19 pm

     atccbslt…

536. Möbius EckoDecember 3, 2015 at 6:31 pm

     John Maycock I guess that makes them as bad as the gay bashers and killers here in Australia. Growing up poofter bashing was considered a sport and driving them to suicide a bonus for having got rid of the scum.

     In the racist mindset that makes all Australians homophobes and criminals.

537. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 6:31 pm

     “Islamic State group targets gays with brutal public killings”

     There are non-Muslims in this country who bash or kill gay people too – without any legal proceedings beforehand.

538. corvus boreusDecember 3, 2015 at 6:36 pm

     It is now 192 hours since I first raised the fact that loopy extremists like Blair Cottrell from the UPF, a nut-job who espouses domestic terror tactics and hero-worships Adolf Hitler, not only help organise and conduct ‘Reclaim’ rallies, but get programmed time on the podium mic.
     There have only been 2 respondents, each offering a single sentence merely abrogating any personal responsibilty.

     Unsurprisingly pathetic response, especially after scrutinising the exceedingly sloppily written and often oxy-moronically self-contradictory manifesto of ‘we-claim Australia’, seemingly scribbled by ‘Judeo-Christian’ supremacists and ‘white nationalists’.

     Eg; Point 10: ‘Aussie’ is neither a religion nor a race (stupid wankers).

539. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 6:46 pm

     And let’s not forget what’s happening in many Christian South American countries where being gay, or even worse, transexual, is an excuse to be beaten to death. Curse all bloody Christians, eh John Maycock?

     You really are determined to flog that godamned horse to death aren’t you. Yes, those extremists are violent assholes, but it is not true of all Muslims. Yes Islam is a horrible religion, but so are all the stupid religions. Yes we would love the Daesh (ISIS) nitwits would stop their disgusting actions, but inspiring fear and hate in Australians isn’t going to do that. If anything it will worsen the situation. So I am a little mystified as to your point. Or do you have no point? Do you just love bathing yourself in hate and violence?

540. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 7:01 pm

     Oh, and of course the obscenity that is Ghana where the fundamentalist evangelical Christians have managed to institute the death penalty for gays.

     And Russia, where the resurgence of Christianity has come with draconian anti-gay laws, and common bashings and murders of gays.

541. mars08December 3, 2015 at 7:32 pm

     Oh golly gosh? Don’t you people get it?

     Just state that you are appalled by the murder of gays by those ISIS loons. It’s simple.. . say that you are disgusted, or risk being tagged Muslim apologist. That’s how the game is played apparently…

     Hey, I don’t make the rules!

542. UniversalSoulJaDecember 3, 2015 at 7:37 pm

     not just gay, add disabled
     Is Ghana the worst country in the world to be disabled?

     Disabled journalist, Sophie Morgan, 30, travelled to Ghana, West Africa

     The disabled journalist recently travelled from London to Ghana, where disability is considered a ‘curse’ and uncovered the horrifying realities for many people that live there
     Sophie explained one particularly horrifying instance: ‘The girl, aged around 11, had tears, blood and snot streaming from her eyes and nose and she was screaming relentlessly, falling feebly to the ground.
     ‘Her mother was trying to hold her but was sobbing. When I got to them, the child ran at me; I’ve never seen anyone so scared, her eyes were wild, and all I could see in them was utter terror.
     Watch the horrors in this Islamic Healing Centre where they let babies {disabled} starve to death
     The World’s Worst Place to be Disabled?, BBC3
     but it’s worse
     Sinister rise of Islamic exorcisms in Britain
     http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/6643722/Rise-of-Islamic-exorcisms-in-Britain.html

543. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 7:40 pm

     Since the Reclaimers are not condemning murder of gays by white Christians, obviously they condone the practice.

544. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 7:43 pm

     UniversalSoulJa, Ghana is a very strongly Christian nation. It is not Islamic. Oops. Kinda destroyed your own little hate/fear orgasm there, didn’t you.

545. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 7:46 pm

     jimhaz, pathetic sort of reply we’ve come to expect from you. Destroys what little credibility you had left.

546. mars08December 3, 2015 at 8:01 pm

     http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/02/02/exorcist-warns-parents-of-rise-in-demonic-websites/

     http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3294810/Priests-wanted-able-cast-Devil-Catholic-Church-forced-recruit-new-exorcists-cope-huge-rise-demonic-possessions-Philippines.html

     http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8275006

     http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=60751

     Snap!

547. UniversalSoulJaDecember 3, 2015 at 8:47 pm

     I oppose gay killing . full stop
     this was news today
     miriam-english
     Ghana is a christian country BUT
     It is obvious you didn’t watch Disabled journalist, Sophie Morgans moving documentary where she interviews those inside a Muslim Healing Centre putting “cursed ” babies to death
     try watching it, it is available online

548. Miriam EnglishDecember 3, 2015 at 9:08 pm

     UniversalSoulJa, how many times do we have to say it? Yes, Islam is a stupid religion, but Christianity and almost every other religion can be as bad (except Jainism). We know already the evils religion is capable of.

     The reason you are not getting away with posting scary stuff about Islam is because we know your real agenda is not the protection of gay people or refugees. You only want to stir up fear and hate against Muslims and legitimise your own seething, irrational fear and hate.

     Unfortunately for you, you are just plain wrong.

     Most Muslims are good people, just as most Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans are good people.

     Why can’t you leave them the hell alone?

     That whistling sound you heard? That was the point going over your head. You almost connected with it for a moment there, but failed at the last moment.

549. mars08December 3, 2015 at 9:27 pm

     “…the actual beliefs and practices of Muslims in Africa quite varied from orthodox Islam discussed in textbooks. For Islam has always accommodated the various traditional beliefs of the peoples who have embraced Islam. Becoming a Muslim is quite simple. Anyone who recites the Muslim creed once with sincerity is a Muslim. So the traditional beliefs and practices are carried into Islam…”

     Looks like the tolerance of Islam for “various traditional beliefs of the peoples who have embraced Islam” can have a undesirable impact on the religion. Not unlike some of the mindless, ignorant, chauvinist, faint-hearted, superstitious tools who embrace Christianity… or rabid nationalism.

550. paul walterDecember 3, 2015 at 9:33 pm

     mars08, Miriam et al, I am in awe at your patience with them. I gave up days ago on this thread, with some of the stupidity that came from some quarters.

     I suppose I should learn tolerance for fools, there is a big enough one looking back from the mirror first thing every morning.

551. mars08December 3, 2015 at 9:43 pm

     @Miriam English… it really bothers me that some troubling practices or actions that may have roots in social, economic or cultural conditions… are so easily thrown into the “stupid religion” holdall. No doubt people have used warped interpretation of religion to do some dumb and horrible stuff… but not everyone is motivated by their religion. There are other factors which cause some people to behave in an irrational or unacceptable manner. The importance of a proper education has already been covered in this discussion.

552. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 9:54 pm

     Bernardi and Lambie should be made to pay for this blatant waste of money. https://newmatilda.com/2015/12/03/cory-bernardi-and-the-little-halal-truther-campaign-that-couldnt/

     Universal Arsewipe, you and your friends need to apologise to trees for wasting the oxygen they so diligently produce.

553. mars08December 3, 2015 at 10:22 pm

     @Lee… maybe you could ease up on UniversHole… he and his creepy, ignorant mob might not be wasting as much oxygen as you believe. Scientists say that the brain is the biggest consumer of oxygen in the human body. So you see where I’m going with this…?

554. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 10:30 pm

     Bwahahahaha! Well I doubt that their combined IQ reaches triple digits but I so detest waste.

555. Kokot RakevDecember 3, 2015 at 10:36 pm

     I just wonder If you are blind and deaf or simply so stupid that you don’t see what izlam and moslems are all about, just watch the news or read newspapers and see all the true information about what a murderous bunch of medieval retards moslems are.
     The on,y other alternative is that you are one of those misguided idiots who hate their own kind and appease the terrorists in hope they’ll rape and kill you last

556. LeeDecember 3, 2015 at 10:43 pm

     I love it. Here’s another one to prove to us that all the Reclaimers are rednecks.

557. Matters NotDecember 3, 2015 at 11:27 pm

     Kokot Rakev is on ‘the money’ (at least in his/her own world view). Spells ‘phonetically’, ‘watches’ the news, ‘reads’ the newspapers and ‘sees’ all the ‘true information’ about what a murderous bunch these ‘medieval retards moslems are’.

     But Kokot is not finished. There’s these misguided idiots who hate their own kind and appease the terrorists in hope they’ll rape and kill you last.

     Kokot you are taking the ‘piss’ aren’t you?

     But perhaps not.

558. ChrisDecember 3, 2015 at 11:37 pm

     Matters Not …… kokot
     “a kokot is person who is bitching about everything and acts like a f*cker. he often says words like he is the best man ever…
     It also may be used for man’s sexual organ.” http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kokot
     https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakev
     Still not sure whether the person is joking
     but it is interesting to decipher the weird names people choose…..
     Hang on I’ll Czech that…..

559. Michael TaylorDecember 3, 2015 at 11:44 pm

     Who the hell was that?

560. ChrisDecember 3, 2015 at 11:53 pm

     Which ? Kokot or me ? Often Greatly Dismayed…..I have no idea who Mr ‘Czech Coffin’ was…
     I’m still here >> http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/teen-vandals-statue-of-idiocy/story-e6frea83-1111115698239

561. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 12:02 am

     That would have to be one of my favorite stories on the net….The photo looks like “The Wickerman” and the web address…’Teen-vandals-statue-of-idiocy’ is just excellent. It could be a band and their first album….. ; )

562. silkwormDecember 4, 2015 at 12:16 am

     The White Coats – Homeless Run

563. miriamenglishDecember 4, 2015 at 12:19 am

     mars08, I couldn’t agree more that religion is not the only thing that so damages people’s sensibilities. We humans, to our great shame, have a nearly endless list of such ways we mess with our ability to think clearly; ways that foster lying to ourselves. Religion is probably only the greatest and most pervasive. But some of the others are: racism, misogyny, homophobia, classism, extreme capitalism, extreme communism, militarism, superstition, extreme conservatism, chain of command… the list goes on and on.

564. Michael TaylorDecember 4, 2015 at 1:25 am

     Definitely wasn’t referring to you, Chris. 🙂

565. corvus boreusDecember 4, 2015 at 6:43 am

     I now know the Czech terms for ‘obnoxious prick’ and ‘coffin’.
     Thanks Chris.

566. Kaye LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 6:45 am

     Mr Christensen’s taxpayer-funded book purchases over the six months to June include No, We Can’t: Radical Islam, Militant Secularism; While Europe Slept: How Racial Islam is Destroying the West from Within; The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror; and The Islamist Phoenix.

     Mr Christensen described the purchases as: “Essential policy research given the current national security situation.”

     http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/politicians-spend-up-on-taxpayerfunded-books-20151203-gleviv.html

     I only got as far as checking the first book we bought for George. It preaches that coexistence is a myth and that a war for world domination is raging–between radical Islam, fundamentalist secularism, and Judeo-Christianity.

     It was written by Robert Stearns of the Eagles’ Wings cult which convinces young people to work full time for free while they raise money for the organisation. They live in houses owned by Stearns who is paid rent for each person crammed into his properties.

     The following blog tells the experience of some who have been involved

     (Nice setup, Mr. Stearns – convince people to work for you for free during the day, then get them to raise money to pay for the mortgages on your rental properties where they sleep at night. What’s unbelievable is that some of these team members work FULL TIME in the real estate department, meaning they spend 40+ hours per week servicing the very properties they are raising donations to live in so they can work for free… Must be nice to have tenants who pay to live and work for you!)

     Team members are taught that Robert Stearns and the EW leadership team need to approve of ALL major life decisions, including:
     -Whether and whom they can DATE
     -Whether and whom they can MARRY
     -Business decisions
     -Major purchases
     -Whether they can LEAVE THE MINSTRY

     http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,93025,98796

     And this is who that dangerous fool Christensen goes to for “essential policy research”.

567. Kaye LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 7:08 am

     George’s second book was written in 2006…way to be up to date George on national security issues

     “While Europe Slept” was nominated for the National Book Critics Circle Award for 2006 in the criticism category, which led to controversy. Eliot Weinberger, one of the board members of the Circle, stated when he presented the list of nominations that Bawer’s book was an example of “racism as criticism.” The President of the Circle, John Freeman, declared: “I have never been more embarrassed by a choice than I have been with Bruce Bawer’s While Europe Slept,” and claimed that “its hyperventilated rhetoric tips from actual critique into Islamophobia.”

568. mars08December 4, 2015 at 7:50 am

     The magnificent Mr Christensen is an intilectshul….!!!

569. Adrianne HaddowDecember 4, 2015 at 8:16 am

     silkworm.

     Thanks for the video of the white coats. One aspect of Islam that both the mainstream media and the reclaimists neglect to mention or even acknowledge, is the obligation to give alms to the poor.

     Living next door to a mosque in Madras, many years ago, a daily sight was the gathering of the poor in the courtyard of the mosque where they would be fed by the congregation.

     The best of Islam is going unnoticed and unrecognised, in the reporting of the worst in the form of IS.

570. UniversalSoulJaDecember 4, 2015 at 9:15 am

     Do you intend also to do a bit on the hundreds of other religions, organisations, NFPs, running soup kitchens, day in day out .
     ever thought of volunteering at a local community kitchen, if you can abandon your keyboards long enough
     http://www.communitykitchens.org.au/ over 100 centres
     https://www.givenow.com.au/otherways/food#_Australian_Capital_Territory
     AMMA
     SaLvos
     Streetbeat
     Vinnies Van
     QMHR Ark Mission
     Presbyterian Social Services
     FoodBank NSW
     Exodus Foundation

571. diannaartDecember 4, 2015 at 9:58 am

     …The best of Islam is going unnoticed and unrecognised, in the reporting of the worst in the form of IS.>>

     …and then Islamaphobes go on to complain they never hear Muslims speak out against the extremists… One thing bigots excel at is cherry picking.

     The number of time AIMers have pointed out that a small extremist sect does not represent ALL Muslims is repeatedly ignored by these sad bigoted people and indicative of their inability to reflect on broader issues. They do not want to hear anything apart from their own POV. Pointing out that humans world wide, irrespective of race, colour or creed do behave appallingly is deliberately sidestepped.

     Have to stop posting here – done trying to hold any form of debate here.

572. MickDecember 4, 2015 at 10:39 am

     And then project their failings onto others and call them cherry pickers.

     It’s ridiculous.

     Mr Universe quoted CNN and then The Sun.

     Then when debunked by lists of links to articles showing their articles claims to be bogus or at the very least worthy of skepticism. Nada.

     It is a valuable lesson in what we are dealing with, not that they are anything new. I have spent my life around people like that. Anonymous internet forums are no way to talk with them. The best, is have them alone, away from their mates where they don’t have to keep face, and then listen and thoroughly rebut all of their concerns. As a pack, or with the safety of anonymity they are impossible to talk to.

     Which raises another issue. If they are so proud of themselves, why do so many hide their faces at rallies. What are they ashamed of? Aren’t they proud to be out their spreading their agenda?

573. mars08December 4, 2015 at 10:39 am

     “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” – Voltaire

574. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 11:04 am

     “The best, is have them alone, away from their mates where they don’t have to keep face, and then listen and thoroughly rebut all of their concerns. As a pack, or with the safety of anonymity they are impossible to talk to.”

     Even then nothing can get through a closed mind. If someone is unsure and questioning then you can reason with them. When their mind is made up and they refuse to acknowledge evidence that is contrary to their prejudices, then they just don’t want to know. I’ve been advising some of my family members of a few facts for years. They still stick with their prejudices.

575. RobDecember 4, 2015 at 11:15 am

     ” If they are so proud of themselves, why do so many hide their faces at rallies. What are they ashamed of? ”

     The very same question applies to the anti-Reclaim people, in fact much more so. A large proportion of the antis had covered faces, very few Reclaimers did and AFAIK some of those had had death threats and as such they were not too keen to be recognised.

     I doubt that any of the antis had death threats, they just didn’t want to be identified as they burned the Australian flag. How on earth can burning the flag be acceptable behaviour?

     Also, did you notice which way the police were facing…that’s right TOWARDS the antis with their backs to the Reclaim people, as a general rule you face a threat, not away from it. You do the maths.

     I don’t necessarily fall on the Reclaim side either, but when you look at what’s happening in Sweden, Belgium, France, England, Thailand et al you have to wonder where it’s coming from, there’s only one religious group that fits the bill and it ain’t the Rastafarians.

     And as for “the radicals are only a minority, most Muslims are moderate” argument, that was true in the past as well, Nazi Germany for example where only about 7% of Germans were Nazis but I would bet that only 2% were the radical Jew-hating version, the other 5% (the moderates) just figured they better go along (anyway the pay was good), and the remaining 93% just did what they were told in the hope of getting through it all in one piece.

     On both sides the silent majority/moderates are irrelevant, it’s the radicals that drive everything.

     According to various estimates only 10% or less of Muslims are radical, but let’s be generous and reduce that to 1%, that’s 150,000,000 (yes 150 million) people worldwide who want to destroy the west. In what universe is that NOT a threat? Even just here in Oz, if we use the same percentage we may have 4000+ radicals. In what universe is that NOT a threat?

     I appreciate that the west’s actions of late have certainly poked the hornets nest, we have a lot to answer for as well, mostly because of our greed for oil, but the radicals have been on a jihad for 1400 years, we’ve just provided the means and more motivation.

     Now please don’t pull out the racist card, it’s getting to the point where that’s used on people for driving a Holden instead of a Falcon. There are no race issues here, it’s a medieval barbaric-quasi-religion issue, nothing to do with race. I do agree that hate talk will probably make matters worse because it will alienate more Muslims, just remember that the radicals are already alienated, they have no intention of integrating with our way of life, not one little bit. Those people need to be addressed, and probably by other Muslims.

576. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 11:19 am

     Hitler committed his atrocities in the name of Christianity. Congratulations Rob for making the argument that we cannot and should not trust any Christians either.

577. mars08December 4, 2015 at 11:20 am

     Correction… “Those insist on believing in absurdities, be made to commit atrocities.”

578. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 11:29 am

     Rob Reclaim Australia supporters have and do attack people (and cover their faces). This video might help….

     There were other videos of this guy boasting about attacking anti-fascist protesters…..but they seem to be missing from that channel now.

     Andy Fleming @slackbastard is the twitter account for that channel and person. It will give you a more realistic view of who are the bad guys here.

579. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 11:31 am

     Corvus Yeah I know the term ‘kokot’ from elsewhere also.

580. Kaye LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 11:51 am

     “According to various estimates only 10% or less of Muslims are radical, but let’s be generous and reduce that to 1%, that’s 150,000,000 (yes 150 million) people worldwide who want to destroy the west.”

     Ummmm…let’s see. If 150 million is 1% then we must have 15 billion Muslims which is a mean feat since the population of the world is less than half of that. And where did you get the estimate of 10% of Muslims being radical? As they would say on Get Smart…I find that hard to believe.

     You may also want to look up the Sykes Picot agreement to explain where some of the angst is coming from.

581. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 12:02 pm

     Kaye Lee I believe that figure comes from ‘Rupert Murdoch’……

582. silkwormDecember 4, 2015 at 12:05 pm

     Most of these prejudices come from listening to the bullies on talk back radio.

583. mars08December 4, 2015 at 12:09 pm

     “I appreciate that the west’s actions of late have certainly poked the hornets nest, we have a lot to answer for as well, mostly because of our greed for oil, but the radicals have been on a jihad for 1400 years, we’ve just provided the means and more motivation.”

     What deceitful rubbish!

     “The west’s actions of late” Ha! The west has been meddling in the Middle East for over a century. By “meddling” I mean carving up the territory, invading, manipulating, a d double crossing.

     “The hornets nest” What? First, that term makes it seem that tbe region is packed with people ready to lash out. Second, the hornets that do exist were, for the most part, created by the west’s self-serving policies and actions.

     “Radicals have been on a jihad for 1400 years” Huh?? What does that even mean? They’ve been engaged in a holy war for 1.4 millennium? They seem to have been stunningly unsuccessful! Maybe they should have given South and central America a go.

584. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm

     I was going by this that may have been posted on here somewhere https://www.facebook.com/riaz.khan.399826/videos/10153806656374973/

     It seems Rupert thinks it is 20%……

585. silkwormDecember 4, 2015 at 12:17 pm

     Have any of the Reclaimers run a soup kitchen or worked with the homeless?

586. diannaartDecember 4, 2015 at 12:19 pm

     If Reclaimers were serious about marching for human rights, they would protest ALL child abuse, ALL discrimination against women/LBGTI/race, ALL religious hypocrisy, ALL attempts to limit freedom of speech, ALL lies from ALL governments and big business…. naaaah, too hard, just whinge about one religion and forget the rest.

     Pathetic.

587. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 12:43 pm

     Oh dear. The various facts and stats that have been posted in this thread make it very clear that the Reclaiming Rednecks are severely lacking in information literacy skills and the ability to determine fact from fiction. Someone assumes a position of authority and tells them nonsense and they believe it without question and run with it.

588. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 12:45 pm

     “Have any of the Reclaimers run a soup kitchen or worked with the homeless?”

     I doubt it. They might find themselves helping a Muslim, a woman or a leftie and we couldn’t have that now, could we?

589. mars08December 4, 2015 at 1:13 pm

     Kaye Lee:

     You may also want to look up the Sykes Picot agreement to explain where some of the angst is coming from.

     I seriously doubt any of the RA crowd would care about S-P Agreement. As the Adam Goodes fiasco showed, the bogans, bigots and bullies simply can’t accept any retaliation from their targets. Instead, they should just lay down and tolerate the barrage of hatred.

     Next year is the 100th anniversary of the Sykes Picot travesty.

     And it’s less than a century since Sir Percy Cox issued the Uqair Convention. In 1922, Cox on behalf of the British government, personally drew the borders of Iraq, Syria, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The French had their hands in that deal as well.

     The Protocol of Sèvres between Britain, France and Israel (1956) is another example of imperial powers toying with the people of the Middle East in order to maintain control of it’s resources. The west seems to have little hesitation when it comes to stirring up conflict in that part of the world.

     http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%20Protocol%20of%20Sevres%201956%20Anatomy%20of%20a%20War%20Plot.html

     Is it any wonder that most people of that region would rather be left alone?

590. MickDecember 4, 2015 at 1:34 pm

     UniversalSoulJa, I have actually helped set up two soup kitchens in my time. Why is it though that you don’t just say, oh, that’s good of those Muslims to do something for the community, instead of just saying, well they aren’t that good, other people do it too, so nerrrr.

     By your logic though, if we went and volunteered for Salvos, we’d be considered child rapists.

     Rob, maybe if the reclaimers weren’t running around screaming ban the burka, their mask wearing wouldn’t seem so hypocritical. And just because you see a photo of police facing away from Reclaimers is not evidence that they are not threatening. Many have been arrested at these rallies, and considering how small their numbers are, I would say it is indicative of the manner in which they are handling themselves.

     A picture speaks a thousand words, but they are not necessarily the truth.

591. Miriam EnglishDecember 4, 2015 at 1:41 pm

     Rob, I applaud you for an excellent attempt to stick to the point and consider various sides of the argument.

     Your point that the radicals have an impact on society far outweighing their actual numbers is a very good one (even if you got your numbers a bit wrong, as Kaye noted, which I can understand doing, as numbers are not my strong suit either). But as I say, you have a very good point. A small number of Muslim extremists can have a very bad effect on society as a whole. This is exactly why we need the wider Muslim population on our side, so that we have some hope of controlling that. Alienating them by scaring the bejeesus out of them and painting them all as evil just ensures the threat is given shelter. I am relieved and grateful that you acknowledged this at the end of your post.

     Unfortunately a similar argument about extremism can be made regarding “Reclaim” Australia itself. With its unsavory associations with racists, militant Christian extremists, and Nazis, and its frenzy of fear and hate, it can have a bad effect of stampeding the wider population in very dangerous directions. (note for example what the Nazis did last time they gained real power.)

     I don’t think you’ll find anyone here to disagree that Islam is a bad religion, despite it having good bits in it (helping the poor, orphans, widows, and having some limited tolerance for other religions and atheists). Unfortunately we are stuck with it. There are many Muslims who are attempting to de-fang Islam the way Christianity has (mostly) been, but we need to help them in that by showing them how good a modern, secular life can be. Just like any religion, Islam is not all bad. Sure, it has some worse bits than most, and the Koran is even more bloodthirsty than the horrible Christian Old Testament, but if the Christians can get past the worst of their awful Bible, I’m hoping the Muslims can too. Railing against the whole religion will achieve the exact reverse of what is needed.

     I live for the day when we have no stupid religions of people convincing themselves they know things they can’t possibly know and willing to hurt other people because they think delusion is “better” than another person’s delusion.

     I long for a time when people have no interest in astrology, racism, bowen healing, psychics, alien abductions, Loch Ness monsters, crop circles, bigfoot, hollow Earth, crystal power, pyramid power, fairies, spirits, ghosts, astral projection, creationism, intelligent design, dowsing, ley lines, chakra, past life regression, telepathy, telekinesis, numerology, clairvoyance, levitation, Atlantis, ESP, homeopathy, chiropracty, acupuncture, reflexology, colonic irrigation, feng shui, reiki, prayer, shiatsu, chemtrails, holocaust denial, HIV AIDS denial, Moon landing denial, geomancy, palmistry, tarot, perpetual motion, anti-vaccination, ouija, voodoo, seances, channeling, miracles, and all the other bewildering profusion of unsupportable crazy things people convince themselves of.

     But in the meantime we have to live with it and do things to minimise the danger. Tolerance is a big part of that, and showing people by example that rationality works, where all these silly things manifestly don’t. Most beliefs thrive on opposition. The more ferociously you attack them, the more you convince their adherents that they are right. I know it’s crazy, but that’s the human mind, right?

     I’m writing a story at the moment in which one of my characters is appalled at how people would cling to all these lunatic beliefs, but she is told by her teacher that she has it backwards; the puzzle is not that people are so out of step with reality, but that this jelly-like mass, this self-growing electrical network of cells we call our brain, could understand reality at all.

     Belief in nonsense is receding. Religion all over the world is dying. We just have to give it a good chance to do so and speed it along its way by making it clear that a rational, secular, humanist lifestyle is much more rewarding for all.

     You haven’t won until your enemy is your friend.

592. Adrianne HaddowDecember 4, 2015 at 2:12 pm

     Excellent post Miriam English. Says it all so succinctly.
     Bravo.

593. jimhazDecember 4, 2015 at 2:12 pm

     Pretty much everyone is cherry picking on this thread.. Confirmation bias is strong with these essentially personality dependent topics. Its what we seem to have to do to create an opposing argument.

     Gotta give it to Kaye in particular – she tries hard not to polarise and uses pertinent, more objectively expressed arguments. A patience and skill learnt or enhanced from teaching I suppose.

     Its the old thing – to avoid people becoming defensive and reactive,argue the idea or concept not the person, Sure, belittling and personalising can work as well – the rejection cuts deeper and may cause more reflective and broader thinking – BUT too much and you just make yourself or your site a target to fight against or turn away from ….ummm… as we have seen with Clementine Ford :).

594. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 2:25 pm

     Jimhaz must be having another bad period day.

595. Mark NeedhamDecember 4, 2015 at 2:49 pm

     Miraim.
     Where have you been hiding.
     You have definitely changed the tenor of this site. For the better.
     Still have the “ascerbic” little puppy dogs, diving in for a “Free Kick”, now and then, not helping the situation.
     Good onya, mate,
     Mark Needham

596. Miriam EnglishDecember 4, 2015 at 3:05 pm

     So near, jimhaz, but missed by this much. You were making sense until you just couldn’t resist taking a deluded jab at Clementine Ford. What a pity you flushed so much away with such a simple, absurdly callous statement.

     Yep, the victim is to blame for the viciousness of the horde of crazies attacking her. But of course she brought it on herself, right? What kind of woman goes around saying that men ought to be held responsible for what they say and do? Lunacy, right? She’s a woman. She should just take it without complaint. A woman standing up for herself is just asking for trouble. It’s all her fault.

     Bleagh!

597. diannaartDecember 4, 2015 at 3:15 pm

     …Where have you been hiding.
     You have definitely changed the tenor of this site. For the better….

     WTF?

     This is not a personal attack on you, Miriam. However, many, many people here put a great deal of time and effort into their posts and opinions.

     @Mark Needham – Kaye Lee writes terrific, thoughtful articles which take a great deal of research – just for you to come in….. OK to disagree, but please present something thoughtful yourself for a change.

     Sheesh I am off to read my copy of Helen Razer’s “A Short History of Stupid” because I need the catharsis.

     Miriam

     On topic of trolls ‘n bullying you may or may not find the following link of interest.

     http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/trolls-fame-and-blame-helen-razer-on-charlotte-dawson/

598. RobDecember 4, 2015 at 3:28 pm

     “Hitler committed his atrocities in the name of Christianity. Congratulations Rob for making the argument that we cannot and should not trust any Christians either.”

     Correct, I don’t trust any fundamentalist religious person, Christians were (and in some cases still are) just as bad. The need to believe in a higher being just boggles my mind. Let’s put it this way, WRT a God there are three options

     1) He doesn’t care about the crap going on
     2) He can’t do anything about it
     3) He doesn’t exist

     Either way why on earth would you trust such an entity? Actually there’s a fourth option

     4) He works in mysterious ways

     Now ain’t that the truth? I’ll apologize in advance for the anti-God rant, that’s really for another forum.

     “Rob Reclaim Australia supporters have and do attack people (and cover their faces). This video might help….”

     Truth is I’ve seen videos from both sides, as we all know you can cut them to show what you like, so TBH I think neither side is blameless and all the posted videos need to be taken with a grain of salt.

     ” If 150 million is 1% then we must have 15 billion Muslims which is a mean feat…”

     Yeah I cocked up the numbers, was thinking of the 10% number and didn’t notice the error until long after my 5-minute edit time was up. Never the less 15,000,000 is still a huge number. So to paraphrase Maxwell Smart…”Would you believe 15 million?”

     ““The hornets nest” What? First, that term makes it seem that tbe region is packed with people ready to lash out. Second, the hornets that do exist were, for the most part, created by the west’s self-serving policies and actions. ”

     That was my point, we go in there and bomb places because we are worried about the petro dollar being usurped (or whatever), then we complain that they go to NY/Paris/London and do similar to the best of there abilities. I’m not condoning either action, but to see it from “their” side, TBH if a drone blew up my kid’s school and they were killed I would be highly motivated to get revenge.

     The S-P Agreement is just one of a string of western imperial impositions, before that there was a time when one monarch could (for example) move the Kenya/Tanzania board to “give” Kilimanjaro to another monarch for his birthday (OK that’s a popular myth, but they made similar arbitrary decisions). Dickheads in places like Whitehall drew straight lines on a map often to the massive detriment of the locals that lived around that line.

     Now we don’t so much move the lines, we just destroy the people inside the lines, nothing matters as long as we (the west mostly) get our oil.

     ““Radicals have been on a jihad for 1400 years” Huh?? What does that even mean? They’ve been engaged in a holy war for 1.4 millennium? They seem to have been stunningly unsuccessful! Maybe they should have given South and central America a go.”

     Yes they have, jihad was promoted in the Quran, the Quran was written 1400 years ago, ergo they have been in a state of jihad for 1400 years. In fact they were very successful for some time, even reaching Vienna IIRC. They got knocked on their arse for a while but the goals are still the same. That is one caliphate for the entire world, and neither you nor I would want to live under such a system. If they had the technology they would be very successful, believe me.

     However jihad is not just bombs and bullets, in Islamic terminology it means a few things I think, one of which is to make an effort, to endeavour and to strive for a noble cause. We tend to use the term to mean violent expansion of Islam, but it can be anything from that to just a struggle against things such as greed, lust and other worldly temptations.

     So in that context I think it’s fair to say that they have been in a state of jihad for 1400 years, although it’s not a strong argument either way I admit. That said, our definitions of a “noble cause” may differ.

     BTW, nobody has addressed the issues in the countries I mentioned. I would like to hear your thoughts on that because people like the Swedes certainly need something like a “reclaim” movement right now.

     @Miriam, thanks. I can see your POV first hand because some of the “arguments” (AKA ad hominem attacks) presented above got my blood up and I was limbering up my two typing fingers to retaliate. But your reasoned post calmed me down a tad.

     I’m cursed with always seeing both sides of an argument, it makes me a crap arguer. In this case most people are cherry picking to suite their argument, heck I probably did as well. Not so in this post I hope.

     You are right, what is is, we have to figure out how to get over the current issues.

     Maybe we should stop bombing people and just starve ISIS, after all someone must be buying their oil.

     Also we could look at Muslim representation in parliament. Given that Muslims are only about 2% of the Aussie population they should only have about 2% of the politicians. Is that the case? I don’t know, but if it’s much more they are exerting influence that is not proportional. And speaking of public office, AFAIK you cannot hold such an office if you hold ANY authority over and above the law of the land. Correct me if I’m wrong but as I understand it a true Muslim must hold Allah’s word as the supreme law, therefore, by definition a Muslim cannot be an Australian politician.

599. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 3:38 pm

     Hey Rob, no worries here about the anti-God rant. The concept of killing each other to prove who has the better imaginary friend is utterly ridiculous. Religion causes so many problems, is used to control people and I’d be glad to see the end of all of it. Those who want to do good and help their fellow man don’t need religion to do so.

     Putin claims that Turkey is buying oil from ISIS. I doubt that any of the nations currently involved in the ME fracas are innocent and suspect that all have been contributing to the problems over there with some underhanded, immoral dealings.

600. Miriam EnglishDecember 4, 2015 at 3:56 pm

     I agree, diannaart. I have a greatest admiration for you, Kaye, Victoria, Jennifer, TurnLeft2016, and many others who write on this site. There is much wisdom to be found here. Even many people I’ve crossed swords with here still deserve my respect and admiration. Wally is an example who comes to mind.

     Mark, I thank you for your praise, but I really make a pretty insignificant contribution to this site. I’ve been posting to this thread much more than I should because hate and fear strike me as far too dangerous to go unanswered, but I should really be working.

     diannaart, thanks for the link to Helen Razer’s article. I used to listen to her on JJJ every chance I got years ago. I’ll see if I can find a copy of her book (though I already have a to-read list that will keep me busy even if I live for hundreds of years). I hadn’t heard of Charlotte Dawson (I don’t have TV). That was an interesting read. It honestly flummoxes me that people would waste their time vomiting hate against a model. I can perhaps understand people hating an arms manufacturer, or a member of the KKK, or a corporation destroying people’s lives with pollution… but a model??? Some people are just way, waaay out there.

601. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 3:59 pm

     “Correct me if I’m wrong but as I understand it a true Muslim must hold Allah’s word as the supreme law, therefore, by definition a Muslim cannot be an Australian politician.”

     There are lots of Muslims who do not adhere strictly to every word in the Quran. We have a number of Christians who oppose bills based on the word of their God and contrary to the wishes of the electorate. They shouldn’t be Australian politicians either.

     “BTW, nobody has addressed the issues in the countries I mentioned. I would like to hear your thoughts on that because people like the Swedes certainly need something like a “reclaim” movement right now.”

     To be honest, I’m not familiar with the problem in Sweden. I’d like those who claim that Muslims refuse to integrate within our society to actually define what they mean by integration. There are very nice Muslims in my neighbourhood. They are quiet, peace loving, respectful of others and work to earn a living. If they want to pray 5 times a day that makes no difference to me and it shouldn’t make a difference to anyone else either. I’ve got non-Muslim neighbours who are first class dickheads, regularly making loud noise in the middle of the night when most people are trying to sleep. They drive around the neighbourhood like hoons and have loud parties at least once a week. Is this the way we want Muslims to behave in our society to prove their willingness to integrate? I don’t object to them having halal food, per se. Everyone has food preferences. I do object to their method of slaughtering animals for food but then I also object to the cruelty meted out to animals by non-Muslims too.

602. paul walterDecember 4, 2015 at 4:07 pm

     Christ.

     To think that we need a clarifying comment like the last one in this day and age after 600 posts at a current affairs thread.

     Give me strength.

603. jimhazDecember 4, 2015 at 4:10 pm

     @ Miriam,

     [Yep, the victim is to blame for the viciousness of the horde of crazies attacking her]

     Not the viciousness, but for them being attracted there. That she wasn’t talking to them, she was talking to other women, isn’t relevant once someone promotes their views in the public domain. She knew what to expect – it sounds like she’d had a fair bit of it over the time.

     [But of course she brought it on herself, right? What kind of woman goes around saying that men ought to be held responsible for what they say and do? Lunacy, right? She’s a woman. She should just take it without complaint. A woman standing up for herself is just asking for trouble. It’s all her fault.]

     No she can do what she wants and wear the consequences. It may not be fair, but its reality. Just as what occurred to the bloke who lost his job I suppose.

     I’d drafted something up earlier, and was wondering whether to post or not. I will now – on the “The same people” thread.

604. corvus boreusDecember 4, 2015 at 4:57 pm

     Rob (3:28).
     Regarding your 3 god options; why all “He”?
     Solo male creation is pure masturbation.

605. diannaartDecember 4, 2015 at 4:58 pm

     Thanks Miriam – today has been a day of ‘stoopid’ – trying to communicate with an Ebay seller about a delayed parcel – not going into details, but I just have to wonder at how some people manage to get out of bed without directions… sigh.

     Then to read the interminable whinge from racists, bigots and (dare I say) sexists – gets a bit much.

     Apparently expressing an opinion while female is not so different from walking outside while black.

     I fear I will have long left this world before people stop hating.

606. mars08December 4, 2015 at 5:24 pm

     Okay… if understand the tone of this discussion correctly… misguided faith and silly religions are the root cause of all the world’s problems. Traditions, cultural norms, economic conditions, social cohesion, forms of government, historical memory, education levels, age distribution and climate are all secondary influences on how a group of people behave.

     The main motivation… the main driving force for entire population is based on their faith. Their dominant religion is what defines them and guides them. The behaviour of any individual within any defined group can… at it’s core, be explained by the dominant faith permeating that group.

     Fine. Well I hope nobody minds if, from now on, I regard everything done by ANY citizen of America as representative of Christianity… or the action of ANY Australian as being entirely motivated by consumerism. All Chinese, of course, are simply driven by their devotion to Communism.

     That should make things much clearer!

607. RoswellDecember 4, 2015 at 5:41 pm

     . . . but I really make a pretty insignificant contribution to this site.

     You’re wrong there, Miriam. Your contribution is, in my opinion, very significant and certainly appreciated.

608. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 6:10 pm

     mars08 I hope most read or follow the links that you put up. They are always interesting, ‘fairly balanced’ and informative.
     Your point that politics generally trumps ‘faith’ and to a great degree guides and ‘directs’ religion should be an obvious truism (with a bit of tautology there).

609. corvus boreusDecember 4, 2015 at 7:05 pm

     Rob,
     The relative logic and rationality of your posts deserves a more considered and relevant response.

     First-up, I utterly condemn things like the red/black riot-attired thugs attacking unarmed ‘reclaimers’ with banner poles at Melton.
     I have not heard of any flag-burning, but, if such did occur it was a stupid and provocatively disrespectful act of public arson.
     In fact, I disagree entirely with the confrontational nature of the ‘counter-protests’ conducted, both ethically and pragmatically.
     Any civil opposition to such religious-cultural intolerance should be a peaceful, legal gathering to make a positive counter-sound (eg

     As for ‘reclaim’ itself, their manifesto and active representation brays bigoted fundamentalist militancy in repetitive slogans of mangled diction, with a consistent pattern of declaring all fellow citizens who reject their agenda as ‘traitors’.
     ‘We-claim straya’ = bogan crook-crusaders against the ‘secular caliphate’.

610. MickDecember 4, 2015 at 7:19 pm

     Ditto Corvus, Thanks Rob for fleshing out your thoughts and arguments here.

611. Mark NeedhamDecember 4, 2015 at 8:08 pm

     diannaart
     December 4, 2015 at 3:15 pm

     I do not think that I am the A…..le that you think I am.
     Not going to repeat, who and what I is/are or should be.

     I have pressed your buttons, Yep, I know that. But I reckon I don’t deserve what you have dished, and I apologise for having done so. It is/has not been my intent.

     Kaye Lee, does write good stuff. Never said she didn’t.
     Had my moments with TL2016 and so forth.

     Been married for 47 years, Margie and I, still have our moments, but we try to respect the different view. At the end of the day, It does not matter. ( By that, I mean, the differing opinion does not matter. We will both still be able to talk about those difficult subjects, and give each other our trust)
     shite, you know what I mean…!
     As I tippy tap, there have been 611 comments in this conversation, and it has been a Good Conversation.

     Sorry, diannaart,
     I do not mean harm,
     Mark Needham
     Oh, PS. That I can be a proper A….le, yes, I can. reckon I have done it before and will do it again, but it will not be intentional, that is what I am trying to say.

612. DanDarkDecember 4, 2015 at 8:10 pm

613. TurnLeft2016December 4, 2015 at 8:11 pm

     Mark
     just stumbled upon this

     weve had our moments?
     oops, sorry

614. mars08December 4, 2015 at 9:09 pm

     Chris:

     …politics generally trumps ‘faith’ and to a great degree guides and ‘directs’ religion…

     Blindly accepting that we are engaged in a clash of cultures or religions lets us dismiss the current situation as hopeless. The generations of conflict between English and Irish Catholics had politics at it’s core. The motivation of the IRA was not primarily religious…

     http://www.thenation.com/article/heres-what-a-man-who-studied-every-suicide-attack-in-the-world-says-about-isiss-motives/

615. mars08December 4, 2015 at 9:14 pm

     And another…. http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

616. LeeDecember 4, 2015 at 9:30 pm

     Thanks for the links Mars. All that is left to add is that western governments aren’t interested in taking in refugees because they couldn’t care less about the innocent citizens in the ME. All they want to do is protect their supply of oil.

617. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 9:49 pm

     mars08 i’m fairly sure there was quite a strong affinity with IRA motivations in my family and I always explained ‘the troubles’ to people who “….couldn’t understand…” that it was about land rights and political power. The ‘not being able to understand’ thing was probably the dominant position of the majority concerning the IRA’s campaign.
     A slight aside…..Do you or anyone remember the IRA giving the Queen a Lord Louis Mountbatten jigsaw puzzle for her Birthday one year in the mid to late 80s ? I can’t find any reference to it on the net when I looked but I’m sure it happened…..my Grandma thought it was kind of funny even though it was incredibly wrong to laugh about…..but she and I did anyway.
     In year 10 when we were asked what we wanted to do when we left school I jokingly (with all seriousness) said I intended to be a ‘terrorist freedom fighter’…..You could say that back then….or at least I could…
     At the time of the Iraq war I theorised that the ‘honeypot’ effect of attracting anti-American terrorism to Iraq was intentional and an attempt to bog down Sunni militancy in a fight with Shiism and the American military in a theater where collateral damage was not Westerners or Western assets. This was the only real reason for the Iraq War that I could see. No WMDs or al Qaeda link and oil was not entirely reliable as an asset considering the rebuilding costs in Iraq. It now seems maybe I was right.
     Apart from weakness or entrenching division I still don’t quite get why ISIS does not seem to attempt attacks on ‘high value targets’. That’s where I start to wonder who actually has any control in this ‘group’. The Russian airliner may have been a ‘high value target’ but other than that there is perhaps just the attack on the UN compound in Iraq http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/un-hq-baghdad-bombing.htm that predates IS and seemed a misguided target anyway. Any other suggestions ?
     I don’t trust what that Michael Ware guy has to say that is for sure.

618. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 9:57 pm

     I was writing my other thing before that second link came up….I have read that before though. I thought perhaps it confuses The Kurdish Regional Government with PKK/YPG though. I don’t think they are necessarily the same people or have the same aims….the KRG seemed much closer to the US and not so friendly or helpful to the YPG…..at least some of the time. Much more capitalist than socialist/anarchist…..
     Wow so much work to get to the bottom of this thread….. : (

619. RobDecember 4, 2015 at 10:02 pm

     “Rob (3:28).
     Regarding your 3 god options; why all “He”?
     Solo male creation is pure masturbation.”

     He he, I thought that would attract at least one brickbat 🙂

     I was going to edit the post to read “He/she/it” but though sod it, let the cards fall where they may.

     Personally I’m long over the the PC BS about he/she, but maybe that’s just because I’m a “he”.

620. diannaartDecember 4, 2015 at 10:06 pm

     @Mark Needham

     Yes, I have had an exceptionally irritating day – I rarely bother with you at all.

     Nor called you an A…..le or any names.

     As for pushing my buttons – well, yeah, one maybe.

     Miriam always writes thoughtful, well-reasoned opinion; the topics here are replete with hers’ and others’ work – I wish I could be as consistent as her with my writing. So why now? Why this thread?

     You regularly enter a thread with some little critique about someone here, always the judge never the contributor – when have you actually addressed a topic with relevant research and a thought out POV? Maybe you have and I have just missed your thoughtful work.

     I rarely cast judgement on others but, hey, I am making an exception with you. It’s just that kind of day.

     😉

621. corvus boreusDecember 4, 2015 at 10:23 pm

     Rob,
     “Personally I’m long over the the PC BS about he/she, but maybe that’s just because I’m a ‘he’”.
     Yes, it is a very easy option to be apathetic or complacent about societally indoctrinated gender prejudices like the automatic pinning of a penis on predominant imaginative projections of divinity, especially when you are in the directly beneficial chromosomal demographic.

     Based upon my observation of existing living templates, I would say acts of solo-creation seem to require either asexual reproduction or hermaphroditic qualities. ‘It’ or ‘they’, if needs be.

622. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 10:43 pm

     Corvus Good points… There is PC and there is ‘being a knob’ or the like…. ; )
     “Although it was rare for dates of sexual initiation and pregnancy consistent with virgin pregnancy to be reported, it was more common among women who signed chastity pledges or whose parents indicated lower levels of communication with their children about sex and birth control.”
     ‘Like a virgin (mother): analysis of data from a longitudinal, US population representative sample survey’
     http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f7102

623. ChrisDecember 4, 2015 at 11:29 pm

     mars08 Here is an interesting one on ” History is full of faiths and extreme ideologies that simply die out without the right geopolitical conditions and support.”
     ‘Only Mideast political solution can dim ISIS’ flame’
     http://atimes.com/2015/12/only-mideast-political-solution-can-dim-isis-flame-sisci/

624. MickDecember 4, 2015 at 11:33 pm

     I too have been wondering about the lack of high profile targets. Why, for instance did the attackers in Paris not wait for the clinate summit? Why a concert?

625. RobDecember 4, 2015 at 11:46 pm

     Maybe because the climate summit was a hard target, a night club was soft.

626. Matters NotDecember 4, 2015 at 11:53 pm

     diannaart at 10:06 pm

     rarely bother with you at all

     Why ‘bother’ at all? That you give him the time of day is much more than he deserves.

627. mars08December 4, 2015 at 11:54 pm

     @Chris… yes that’s an interesting article, but not very plausible.Certainly any American president who tried to disengage from that debacle will be doomed to political oblivion. After all the hype from the ruling class and the corporate media and all the political capital built on being “tough on terror”, no American politician would dare show a hint of weakness.

628. Matters NotDecember 5, 2015 at 12:14 am

     Why, for instance did the attackers in Paris not wait for the clinate (sic) summit? Why a concert?

     Maybe ‘beggars can’t be choosers’? Or never ‘let a chance go by’? And all that. As Rob avers:

     Maybe because the climate summit was a hard target, a night club was soft.

     Brussels was ‘shut down’ a few days’ ago and the chaos was significant. The argument was that an ‘attack’ was imminent. The response was extreme. As far as I can see, nothing happened re ‘terrorist attacks’ but the ‘terrorists’ had a great victory.

     Little ‘incidents’ can be easily magnified to have both significant ‘affects’ and ‘effects’?

629. ChrisDecember 5, 2015 at 1:41 am

     mars08 I don’t see where it does say America is going to disengage…. ? It says that Russia doesn’t really hold a position that can bring about a negotiated solution…. I thought the historical context it puts it in was quite good and most of the rest is a generalised context of where other nations possibly fit. To me it actually hardly discusses the US at all so I’m not quite sure what you mean…

630. ChrisDecember 5, 2015 at 2:05 am

     Matters Not and Rob if as you say it is purely because it was a soft target that does tend to show little in the way of strength of planning or ability. It may maximize the fear factor due to its apparent randomness and that has the spin off of marginalising Middle Eastern and North African people (or people of that extraction) more than they already may be but that still seems pretty lacking as far as any kind of useful strategy to achieve anything. More people stuck in refugee camps, more exclusion walls and fences, more poverty, etc. They can’t survive as any kind of political movement with a daft plan like that. It is not even likely to be a popular plan…..
     At best it justifies the developed worlds genocidal policies towards the poor nations and the nations most likely to be hit the worst by climate change. Are people that willing to act against the interests of the future of their families ? I wouldn’t think so. I’d tend to think this as being more the actions of people from a more ‘privileged’ part of the world where these implications might not have occurred to them.

631. mars08December 5, 2015 at 6:32 am

     Chris… all I meant was that it’s unlikely that there could be an exclusively Mideast political solution. There is bound to be outside influence. I suspect that Russia’s current involvement has a lot to do with securing a place at the table for any negotiated settlement. They won’t want to miss out on their slice of the pie.

632. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 8:32 am

     I take your point, though I don’t know if soft is the right word for orchestrating a massacre at a concert.

     It does have the impact of marginalizing practically every Muslim or person with a vaguely sounding Arabic name in the world.

     The climate summit would be more difficult, but so is fighting a multi tiered war in lands you have just seized. Wouldn’t that have been a much greater show of strength? Are they just not that tactically clever?

     It is easy to assume their motives, but as Chris is saying, there may be a lot more to this than just cowardly Muslims acting out revenge fantasies on ‘ soft ‘ targets.

633. UniversalSoulJaDecember 5, 2015 at 8:36 am

     I note Kaye Lee and others mention % of radicalised Muslims
     !)% would mean we already have 38,000 here
     even 1% means we have 3,800
     I wonder if these counted ?
     

634. Mark NeedhamDecember 5, 2015 at 8:40 am

     diannaartDecember 4, 2015 at 10:06 pm
     “”with some little critique about someone here””

     I enter, usually with a question or statement, looking for an answer.
     To ask, is what I do. Isn’t that fair enough. Just trying to find out stuff, correct me, by all means. Please don’t be a bully who puts someone down, because of a differing view, or lack of information.
     I have never deliberately attacked anyone personally, except the odd “ankle biter” ( like ‘matters not’, just tit for tat)

     But you seem to be above trying to handling a question, which perhaps questions a belief, that you may hold firm.
     So be it.
     But, do not criticise me for being here.

     The treatment some people receive and serve, is a bit beyond the pale, but I suppose, is now normal for the “faceless blog” world that we are now in.
     resigned,
     Mark Needham

635. UniversalSoulJaDecember 5, 2015 at 8:50 am

     I’ve waited for all those bagging Reclaimers Rallies to run out of steam ,
     now, do you also bag these
     I have hundreds of examples ,
     

636. LeeDecember 5, 2015 at 8:53 am

     As has been mentioned before, ISIS is not a homogeneous group. Not everyone is there for the same purpose either (e.g. Mars’ link to the prisoner interviewed who was only trying to feed his family), so it’s no surprise that some of their targets make no sense. OTOH, people would be expecting a terrorist attack at a high profile event. They wouldn’t expect it at a concert or a location where people are simply going about their everyday lives. A successful attack at the latter is going to instil more fear in the citizens.

637. mars08December 5, 2015 at 8:53 am

     Seems to me that some people are assuming that the Paris attacks were planned and supported by a central ISIS mastermind. The consensus is the that the targets were selected after some strategic forethought.

     Maybe it was just a febunch of angry, bloodthirsty idiots out to create mayhem… while using Islam as a rallying banner? Maybe their only goal was to get the world’s attention?

638. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 9:06 am

     UniversalSoulJa

     1. Staitistics do not work that way.

     2. Suppose there are 3800 Muslim individuals in this country who for one reason or another sympathise with ISIS, and may be willing to act on that sympathy. What would you say is the comparable number of Australians who have views that could be described as sympathising with violent forms of white supremacy, and could without much help be encouraged to act on those beliefs.

     3. Islamic extremism is a word throw around very casually especially if off-the-cuff violence is mentioned by teenage boys. What do you call it when an Australian suggests sinking boatloads of refugees at sea? What word do we have for that ? Freedom of speech?

     4. The guy handing out the pamphlets in the video said he was calling for the eradication of Islam in Sydney and Australia. Does that not sound extreme?

     5. At the end of the video you posted, the Grand Mufti was wisely calling on people not to act out violently. What are your feelings about that?

639. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 9:11 am

     Lee, I couldn’t agree with you more. I suspect many of the foot-soldiers of ISIS are essentially slaves. I also understand about the possibility they would be suspecting a high profile target.

     Mars, again, I agree, and Isis might just be fame-claiming, but, we are all guessing and I am left with far more questions than answers.

640. corvus boreusDecember 5, 2015 at 9:21 am

     UniversalSoulJa,
     To save the trouble and tedium of constantly refuting your repetitious drivel. yes, I have repeatedly ‘bagged’ the behavior of both supposedly ‘anti-racists’ rioters and Islamic activists. I reject their actions entirely.
     On the other hand, you, who identify yourself as aligned with ‘Reclaim’, have utterly failed to address or condemn the religious bigotry and right-wing extremism central to the ‘Reclaim’ organisation and agenda.
     By the nature of your links and posts, I am starting to suspect this refusal to disavow the presence and agenda of extremist groups like the UPF and ADL is due to you having an ideological affiliation with them.

641. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 9:25 am

     “By the nature of your links and posts, I am starting to suspect this refusal to disavow the presence and agenda of extremist groups like the UPF and ADL is due to an ideological affiliation with them.”

     One might even dare, in a private whisper, to use the word “apologist.”

642. Kaye LeeDecember 5, 2015 at 9:38 am

     Rob,

     “Would you believe 15 million”

     I could believe that there are 15 million Muslims who are less than happy with the way the West has been dividing up their land and resources between them but I find it hard to believe there is an army of 15 million suicide bombers and beheaders roaming the world.

     As for the anti-racist/Reclaim rallies, I agree that portions of both groups have behaved badly. I learned long ago that little good will come from confrontation with passionate/angry people. If I had to speak to an adolescent about their behaviour I always removed them from the group situation before speaking to them because they are almost duty bound to stand up to you in front of a crowd. Likewise, in the playground, fights rarely began without a cowardly chanting group egging the combatants on.

     You speak of problems in Sweden etc. Firstly, Europe’s colonial ambitions have promoted the mix of races. You can hardly claim territory as yours and then deny its citizens entry. I think you will find that unemployment and poverty are contributing factors to many social ills. Blaming and marginalising groups of innocent people for the actions of criminals is unfair. Education is a crucial tool for making change.

     The West has become rich dividing up the worlds resources. I believe we have an obligation to contribute to addressing poverty, education, and infrastructure building in the countries who have been left behind rather than continue the endless cycle of revenge.

     ‘Imagine’ is one of my favourite songs.

643. diannaartDecember 5, 2015 at 9:51 am

     @Matters Not

     That you give him the time of day is much more than he deserves.

     Point taken.

     🙂

644. Kaye LeeDecember 5, 2015 at 9:52 am

     I get very wary about anyone who starts talking about assimilation. Surely we can work towards peaceful co-existence?

     As for them wanting everyone to become Muslims, have you ever heard all the promises you have to make when you are Catholic, not only about yourself, but about your babies? Why do you think they are against contraception? Every sperm is sacred and all that. Every religion tries to drum up numbers and every religious person shows differing degrees of tolerance towards those who think differently. There are whole topics that cannot be discussed at my family get togethers.

645. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 9:57 am

     These poor people just can’t win. Food shortages, rising costs of living and repressive regimes drove the Islamic world to the Arab Spring. When their progress is co-opted or brutally repressed, the entire society is to blame. When they fight and fight and fight, it’s just age old quarrels, nothing to do with us. When they seek refuge in places where they may have a chance of eating in peace, they’re a flood of terrorists masquerading as economic migrants.

     The west ripped of the rest. All that wealth in Europe didn’t come for free. The cost was the destabilistaion and impoverishment of Africa, Asia, The Middle East and South America.

     And to make out that the Middle East is just bickering over ancient quarrels, not only ignores the complexity of the situation, it glosses over Europe’s troubled and very recent history and rivalries between ethnic groups that went back to the last major empire that managed to subjugate them all.

646. mars08December 5, 2015 at 10:01 am

     Univershole certainly paints a scary picture.

     He tell us that…. apparently the are thousands of sneaky burqa bomber in Australia waiting to jihad me with their halals.

     And that is why… at this very moment I’m at Sydney airport, about to board my flight to Malaysia. And then southern Thailand.

     What a relief! There are a lot less crazies over there!

647. Kaye LeeDecember 5, 2015 at 10:05 am

     Exactly Mick. Short term greed has consequences and it is now the greedy’s responsibility to deal with what they have created. Instead global corporatisation and increasing inequality with wealth and power in the hands of a very few is making the problem worse. Look to the cause not the symptom. Cure the cancer by healthy rebuilding rather than cutting off limbs. Share the wealth and reap the benefits of increased security, productivity and well-being.

     It is a fact that educating women lowers population growth. So does shooting people I guess. Which should we do?

648. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 10:07 am

     To be fair, not all religions have a strong recruitment drive. Judaism for instance is not evangelical, that would counter it’s view of itself as being the religion of the chosen ones. Others only want people who are willing to embrace all of its tenets and must undergo rigorous levels of initiation.

649. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 10:26 am

     The problem is Kaye Lee, that there is not a soul alive today who is responsible for some of these issues. They began before our time, but are taking place in our time, and will play out across generations to come. This is why we have to try our best not inflame matters worse. I didn’t conquer Australia, yet I live with the consequences. The youth of France and England didn’t divide up the Middle East. The youth of the US didn’t run slave plantations.

     It’s about attitudes. Ideas are passed on in family scenarios that foster resentment and hatred and it’s not until those views enter the public sphere and gather en masse that we see how horrible they are. The generations overlap, which is why the idea about the sins of the father being passed on to the seventh son of the seventh son is still so poignant a statement. Religion helped keep that axiom alive, as much as it proved it’s unfortunate truth.

     I’m not saying that we don’t have our fair share of people responsible for some of the problems we face today. Not thati’m going to name names…cough, Howard…cough, Rumsfeld…cough, Wolfowitz…cough, Murdoch. What I’m saying is they had little control over their upbringing. They grew up in a world where the attitude they displayed was not only evident to them, but fostered in them. Think of the Bush family. How hard would it have been for the son of George.H.W.Bush, former CIA director and vice-president under Ronald “not-exactly-Mr-Peace-himself” Reagan, to grow up any other way. How hard would it be for some of these kids in the middle east to see the west as anything but the enemy. The world is an intergenerational mess, with overlapping eras and ideas. But we have to try.

650. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 12:09 pm

     A quote from Björk on religion.

     “…nature is my religion, in a way… I think everybody has their own private religion. I guess what bothers me is when millions have the same one. It just can’t be true. It’s just…what?”

651. diannaartDecember 5, 2015 at 1:04 pm

     I agree you have a point . However environment can be unpredictable – a person who becomes an altruistic, benevolent type coming from a background of violence and poverty.

     Or brothers Costello – Peter chose to worship Mammon, whereas Tim works for the vulnerable. We can, therefore, hope to enlighten others irrespective of their nature or nurture. I am sure I could’ve supplied better examples but hot, tired, it is only midday and I feel like it has been 24 hours since breakfast.

     I checked a bit more what Björk had to say – as I have my own private religion that is based on nature also, deity free of course.

     I like what she has to say:

     Björk said: “I’m very religious, yes. But I have my own religion. In Iceland it doesn’t makes sense two people be in the same religion. It’s like have the same fingerprint.”

     “Compared to America, or even Europe, God isn’t a big part of our lives here. I don’t know anyone here who goes to church when he’s had a rough divorce or is going through depression or something. We go out into nature instead. Nature is our chapel.”

     Cheers

     PS

     @Miriam English

     Have always turned to books when the going gets tough – the type of existential crisis can be revealed by which literature I choose.

     Am about reread “The Dispossessed” by Ursula Le Guin. Someone mentioned it on the radio – feel the need to return to Ms Le Guin’s wonderful treatise on capitalism after many, many years. This is also my favourite book for anyone who denigrates Science Fiction.

652. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 1:21 pm

     Of course, it’s impossible to predict a person’s response to their upbringing. I personally don’t know how I came through my childhood not a Reclaim supporter, but there you have it.

     I’m baptised Catholic but I grew up with an atheist dad and an Anglican mum. After growing up with many Kalkadoon stories about river spirits and later engaging with Quaker activists and Pagans I spent a few years, for all intents and purposes, as the son-in-law to a Catholic-Muslim family. Later I spent a lot of time in the odd mix of the materialist/atheist/Daoist/Buddhist mix of Hong Kong. These days though, I have a Druidic aspect to my Vodou inspired agnosticism. To each their own.

653. diannaartDecember 5, 2015 at 1:34 pm

     That’s quite a kaleidoscope of religion you have there… trying to get my head around the entire Druidic/Vodou thing. 😉

     I was bog-standard C of E, which is called something else these days, have appreciated the teachings of Buddha and other Asian prophets (are they prophets? – uncertain if this is correct descrption), but always return to nature, so much so that I live in a timber shack on the side of a hill in the Dandenong Ranges – and have not regretted a nanosecond.

654. Miriam EnglishDecember 5, 2015 at 1:41 pm

     diannaart, I’m certainly with you there, regarding books.

     Slobbing around by myself, reading books in my nightie all day is my favorite way to spend my birthday or Xmas.

     There is something very restful and paradoxically adventurous about reading. I haven’t been to a library for years, but used to spend lots of time in them before the internet. I loved the idea of standing in a place surrounded by thousands of people, most of them dead, beckoning to me to come and read their story.

     I grew up (though some would dispute that) to amass a personal library of a couple of thousand books which was simultaneously wonderful and a great weight upon me. Now I have a much, much, larger library which I can carry on the tip of a single finger. Just the other day I added 19 novels and about 200 short stories by Lucy Maud Montgomery (author of Anne of Green Gables) and another 30 from Edith Wharton. (Thank you Project Gutenberg and Gutenberg Australia, as well as dozens of other sites)

     I doubt I’ll get to read more than a fraction of the many thousands of ebooks I have, but what a choice I have now!!! 🙂 No matter my mood, there is always something to suit. No aristocrat or royalty in bygone times had such access to literature that a poor peasant like me does now.

655. MickDecember 5, 2015 at 1:43 pm

     A very simple take on Vodou is that spirits are living archetypes of human behaviour and patterns observable in life and nature and that we have the ability to interact with them. Druidry, again without going into depth, sees the divine in nature with separate planes some of which are accessible by us and focuses on self-development and a scholarly approach to whatever topic your heart is engaged by.

     I practice neither but can’t discount either. They both have their place in my worldview.

656. Miriam EnglishDecember 5, 2015 at 1:51 pm

     I loved “The Dispossessed” when I read it years ago. Must read it again. I very much enjoyed “The Left Hand of Darkness” too — another I must re-read. But probably my favourite science fiction of all time would have to be John Wyndham’s brilliant story “Trouble With Lichen”. I’ve re-read it every several years since I was a kid.

657. diannaartDecember 5, 2015 at 2:43 pm

     Miriam

     I had forgotten “Left hand of Darkness” – must read again – along with all the must-read first-time books. So many books, so little time…

     I love libraries – my local library was my only solace during the appalling bushfires of 2009 when I had no internet or phone line and every day was just simply scary… my attendance there meant I also got to speak with other locals and could listen to their tales of that bleak time.

     And now my library has opened an E-books through an app called Overdrive – which gives me access to ebook/libraries all over the world – this is like Christmas come early.

     In fact I also enjoy a quiet Christmas of mooching around in my PJ’s with a particularly entertaining ‘airport’ novel and delicious munchies.

     Just not romance books – I would rather read telephone books instead – in fact I kinda miss telephone books.

     Apologies to all, for off-thread commentary – if I could, I would reclaim all the lost libraries of the world.

     🙂

     PS – thanks for the links.

658. diannaartDecember 5, 2015 at 2:47 pm

     …. and also, thanks to John Wyndham, enjoy a well written novel of the apocalyptic genre.

659. Miriam EnglishDecember 5, 2015 at 5:51 pm

     heheheh 😀 Now there’s something worth trying to reclaim. All the lost libraries!

     One great advantage of thick books is that it is that much longer before you have to say goodbye to the world and its characters befriended. I often have a very strong sense of loss when ending a series of books featuring a character. I’ve been known to, quite illogically, read more slowly to extend my stay in that world. 🙂

     John Wyndham gave us many great apocalyptic tales (“Day of the Triffids“, “The Chrysalids“, “The Kraken Wakes“). “The Day of the Triffids” is especially dear to me because it was our English novel for my first year in High School. At the time it astonished me because I’d been reading science fiction for years before that and had thought almost nobody read it. “Trouble With Lichen” is quite a different kind of story. The protagonist is Diana, a brilliant young female scientist — he always did stand out among science fiction writers in creating strong, intelligent female leads — and the story is a fairly biting criticism of society, though, as with all his works, it has a bright vein of optimism running through it. I love the way his stories are subversive, yet uplifting.

     I have a favorite quote that I keep handy in which you can hear his own voice coming out of Diana’s mouth… let me just find it… (Darn, blockquote doesn’t work properly for some reason so I’ve stuck it in bold)

     ‘…You know as well as I do that the world is in a mess, and floundering deeper every day. We have only a precarious hold on the forces we do liberate — and problems that we ought to be trying to solve, we neglect. Look at us — thousands more of us every day…. In a century or so, we shall be in the Age of Famines. We shall manage to postpone the worst one way and another, but postponement isn’t solution, and when the breakdown comes there’ll be something so ghastly that the hydrogen-bomb will seem humane by comparison.

     ‘I’m not romancing. I’m talking about the inevitable time when, unless we do something to stop it, men will be hunting men through the ruins, for food. We’re letting it drift towards that, with an evil irresponsibility, because with our ordinary short lives we shan’t be here to see it. Does our generation care about the misery it is bequeathing? Not it. “That’s their worry,” we say. “Damn our children’s children; we’re all right.”

     ‘And there’s only one thing I can see that will stop it happening. That is that some of us, at least, should be going to live long enough to be afraid of it for ourselves. And also that we should live long enough to know more. We simply cannot afford to go on any longer attaining wisdom only half a step before we achieve senility. We need the time to acquire wisdom that we can use to clear up the mess. If we don’t get it, then like any other animal that overbreeds we shall starve; we shall starve in our millions, in the blackest of all dark ages.

     ‘That’s why we need longer life, before it is too late. To give us time to acquire the wisdom to control our destiny; to get us beyond this state of acting like animal prodigies, and let us civilize ourselves.’

     How I wish he hadn’t died early. He would have loved the internet, handheld supercomputers, and some of the other wonderful technology now, although he would be very annoyed that in the 21st Century women still didn’t have full equality. He would be so relieved to find out that we are not sinking into a quagmire of brutality, but that every year there is less violence and terrorism and a greater sense of morality and desire to care for our planet.

660. ChrisDecember 5, 2015 at 8:14 pm

     diannaart and Miriam English Yep I love those books too and thanks for reminding me about “The Dispossessed”. I should read that again too some time. I always liked this guy also although he may not be as well known….This is a nice interview with him… http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2015/07/michael-moorcock-i-think-tolkien-was-crypto-fascist