You are a disgrace to our nation

January 12, 2014
Written by: Michael Taylor
349 Replies

I was appalled at the results of the recent poll reported in the Sydney Morning Herald that revealed, for whatever reason, most people want the Abbott Government to treat asylum seekers more harshly than the disgustingly inhumane levels they currently do. It was noted, disturbingly, that:

A strong majority of Australians, 60 per cent, also want the Abbott government to “increase the severity of the treatment of asylum seekers.”

It is obviously not good enough that the:

Manus Island’s detention centre has been described as cruel, inhuman, degrading and violating prohibitions against torture in a detailed report by Amnesty International.

The most extraordinary claim in Amnesty’s report is that drinking water in the largest compound . . . is limited to less than half a litre a day.

“A dozen bottles a day for nearly 500 men, according to the staff who supply them, or less than a single 500ml bottle per person, an amount that is clearly insufficient, especially given the heat and humidity.”

Or that an:

. . . independent body of psychiatrists, psychologists, GPs and other medical professionals and advocates gave advice to the government about the serious mental health impacts of offshore processing and long term detention.

The living conditions in the facility are hot, extremely cramped and poorly ventilated. There is no privacy. The conditions in one dormitory were so bad that Amnesty International considers the accommodation of asylum seekers there a violation of the prohibition on torture and other ill-treatment. “P Dorm” is a World War II building with a low, curved, metal roof. It sleeps 112 men on bunk beds arranged with no space between. There were no windows, and two standing fans. As a result, the smell is overwhelmingly bad and the heat is stifling. Asylum seekers reported finding snakes in the room and flooding when it rained.

As the week progressed, we witnessed a string of unnecessary humiliations.

The men spend several hours each day queuing for meals, toilets and showers in the tropical heat and pouring rain, with no shade or shelter. Staff refer to them by their boat ID, not their names. Almost all are denied shoes. Most have had their possessions confiscated by people smugglers or staff on Christmas Island.

Pointless advice, apparently, as sixty per cent still want the Abbott government to increase the severity of the treatment of asylum seekers.

I now have a message to that sixty per cent: You are a disgrace to our nation.

It is highly unlikely that any of that sixty per cent will read this post but I have the satisfaction of telling The AIMN’s readers what I think of those disgraceful human beings and I can only hope that my feelings are widely disseminated. I would like to hope that my feelings would not only be widely shared, but widely supported.

This message comes with the warning that course language will be frequently used. I won’t be holding back.

To that sixty percent:

You are disgusting pieces of low-life shit.

You’re no doubt mildly pleased that asylum seekers are forced to live under conditions condemned by Amnesty International but it still isn’t good enough. What would make you arseholes happy? No, on second thoughts, I’d dread to know what would really make you happy: I’d find it even more shameful to accept that we share the same nation and I can assure you that a high degree of shame already consumes me. And disgust. And anger.

What is truly disturbing, nay frightening, is that you possibly represent the views of the majority of Australians. Sixty per cent of them to be precise. That means we have a nation that is predominantly populated by the lowest common denominator when it comes to compassion for the plight of human misery. In other words, we are predominantly a nation of heartless, selfish, ignorant, racist bastards. And you sixty percent have proven to be heartless, selfish, ignorant, racist bastards because you want the Abbott government to increase the severity of the treatment of asylum seekers.

I have no idea why you are the way you are and I don’t know where you came from. I didn’t grow up in an Australia where heartless arseholes like you dominated the social landscape. What happened? Were you simply born a nasty piece of shit or was it external influences like the fear mongering mainstream media in this country that caters for your Neanderlithic intelligence. Or maybe you’ve believed the equally racist Abbott Government – don’t get me started on them or their resident Darth Vader, Scott Morrison – or that xenophobic freak John Howard. Or maybe you await your daily dose of instructions from that screaming idiot Alan Jones on how to run your life. Perhaps you were among the angry mass that came down from the trees pumping with racial hatred when Jones urged his listeners to:

“Come to Cronulla this weekend to take revenge. This Sunday every Aussie in the Shire get down to North Cronulla to support the Leb and wog bashing day . . . “

If any of those poor sods locked up in those filthy detention centres – you know, the ones that aren’t getting treated harshly enough – if they ever make it to this ugly country, what would you like done to them? I can’t imagine how horrific it might be, though I’m sure it’d be something ghoulish enough to satisfy your heartless souls.

As I said, you (and your ilk) are a disgrace to our nation. And what a crying shame that sadly, you are our nation.

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Buff McMenisJanuary 12, 2014 at 3:41 pm

This is starting to look more and more like Nazi Germany .. I’m starting to wonder if it IS still “our” nation. OK, I demand that anyone who is less than a 4th Generation Aussie be deported back to where they came from. Please include the Abbott mob! They make me sick!

Stephen LeahyJanuary 12, 2014 at 3:42 pm

Excellent post Michael – I could not agree more.

FSM is comingJanuary 12, 2014 at 3:51 pm

Totally agree.
You forgot gutless though.
I’m pretty sure you’ll be hard pressed to find someone supporting harsher treatment out in the street face to face.

michelleJanuary 12, 2014 at 3:59 pm

how many people were polled & what in suburbs? it all comes down to 60% of what? I wasn’t asked, neither was anyone I know

Pistachio CJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:07 pm

Michael – Fully agreement re the low life $hits comment, but can you verify if the poll was conducted for/by the SMH.

Dorling and the sub, seem to have left this vital bit of information out of the story.

UMR had nothing on their website about the poll and I certainly would be interested to know who it was commissioned by and how the sampling of 1000 online interviews was done?

Ricardo29January 12, 2014 at 4:09 pm

Yes Michelle, I would like to know specifics of the poll, how many, where and how polled. I join in the condemnation of the 60% of whoever! despicable is not a strong enough word.

peter kellyJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:11 pm

first things first,
1. is IS, after all, a poll by SMH
2. how many good citizens were “polled”?
3. why are you surprised?
it does not take much effort to ask a 100 or even 1000 readers of that rag a few baited and carefully crafted questions to get the answers you want to support your right wing crusade. now that we have Abbott and his holy war against anything or anyone “foreign” or “naughty” what else do you expect from this rabid bunch of rednecks?? a pox on them!!

Bette StreepJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:12 pm

Michelle – it was reported that the majority of people who wanted harsher treatment came from WA and QLD and were over the age of 60. Just google the URM website for the full findings. It is very disturbing reading. These people are indeed a disgrace.

SueJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:17 pm

I believe it was ninemsn that ran the poll they polled 1000.

curiozJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:21 pm

I must admit that l am taking a degree of satisfaction at the looks of puzzled horror on the face of “old people” who try to tell me that asylem seekers deserve the treatment meted out to them, when l observe that type of treatment of “others” is right out of the playbook of those against whom Australians fought in WW2.

At that point l also challenge them to think who benefits by creating such a climate of fear, and point out that it won’t be anyone who works for someone else or even small business!
If I can challenge one person to just consider the source of what they are told… hopefully l can make a little difference?

cuppaJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:21 pm

You don’t have to scratch far below the surface to find the filth of latent fascism in Australia.

abbienoiraudeJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:23 pm

I also agree. I am confused, disgusted and angry. What did we do to the majority that they feel such vehemence to the needy.
I feel it started with Howard’s ‘war on terror’ on the back of his mate Bush jnr.
I feel it was encouraged and fired by MSM and those who want power at any price.
I feel it was consolidated by both sides of politics in trying to rush to the bottom feeders to take the heat out of the ‘asylum seeker problem’ before the elections.

Now I am just lost. I feel in the minority and very very careful in expressing my progressive and compassionate opinion.

We are selfish, narcissists. Pure and simple.

diannaartJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:27 pm

From what I understand the poll was of 1000 – of whom 60% thought treatment of asylum seekers should be harsher.

1. 60% of 1000 does not equate to 60% of Australians.

2. The only treatment harsher than what presently exists in detainees’ camps would be to line people up and shoot them.

I know Australia has its share of bigots, I do not believe they amount to 60%. This entire issue sounds more like dog-whistling with a good dose of distraction thrown in.

Shall take a step back and will wait and see…

JDH2285January 12, 2014 at 4:30 pm

I don’t support harsher treatment of asylum seekers but what i find disgraceful is that as an Australian born citizen i am now a minority in my own country. Over 60% of our population is born overseas.

How is that fair that i am a minority in my own country?

helenmargJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:30 pm

It would break your heart.Thank you Michael.

DeganJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:31 pm

hmmm..a poll done by SMH… why would I take it with a grain of salt…where was this poll conducted? As the last election proved..Polls are bullshit and only used to convince the “sheep”

Dan RowdenJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:39 pm

Why are people saying it was a poll done by SMH? The poll was conducted by UMR Research http://www.umr.com.au/ and reported on by the SMH. I can find no info about who, if anybody, commissioned the poll. Maybe I’m missing something in the story.

NicJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:40 pm

Not only a disgrace to our nation, but to the human race. I cannot possibly begin to understand where people’s human compassion has gone. Or understand how people can feel ok about how other people are treated. We are all part of the same human race why can’t we act like it!

FryaDuckJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:43 pm

I’m sorry stop using Americanisms, it’s arsehole not asshole.

CazJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:45 pm

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your post I also would like to know who is this 60 per cent.?It seems all to very convenient for the abbott government. Remember ms Reinhardt has quite a stake in fairfax. She is very much in bed with the Abbott government. Treating them badly justifies using them ultimately for cheap labour.

DanielJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:45 pm

“To that sixty percent:

You are disgusting pieces of low-life shit.”

Excuse me, youre insulting a majority of this country because of a cross-section of data which doesn’t prove any hard numbers at all? Theres only one piece of shit here and it comes in the form of your so called article

NicJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:48 pm

@JDH2285. Do you not realise that Australia is a country built on refugees (and oppression). If your white then your ancestors where immigrants. And the First in habitants of this nation (and one of the oldest civilisations in the world) was made a minority so tell me how is that ok.

allenmcmahonJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:50 pm

@ JDH2285

I person in 4 or 25% were born overseas not 40% that figure refers to the number of households that include a person born outside Australia not the individuals so I hope that makes you feel better. Just imagine how you would feel if you were of aboriginal origin.

There is racism in Australia, as in all countries, but the majority are just responding to the fear policies of the LNP and most don’t have any idea of what is really happening in our concentration camps. Seceracy has nothing to do with ‘operational matters’ its to keep the the general public from knowing what is going on. If we relied on commercial television or the Murdoch press we would not have a clue either.

FIG WoodworksJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:54 pm

Has Tony Abbott ever been naturalized as an Australian citizen? If he is still English doesn’t that make him an alien and he may have overstayed his visa and be illegal and there fore should be sent to Manus Island!

shaneJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:05 pm

1 thing I hate is that they cry discrimination and all that when they chose to make the move here illegally if you want to move to Australia do it through the right channels don’t fork out your life savings to scum who don’t give a shit if you make the journey or not. Its not fare on them or us Aussies just saying. But you as a blogger are a wanker for posting this article in the first place.

alkay1January 12, 2014 at 5:06 pm

There has always been racism in Australia.. but it’s always been thinly veiled or ‘lighthearted jokes’.. How many times I’ve heard, “I’m not racist I’ve got a mate from Country X”.. Or .. “all people from ‘Country X’ are like this.. but you’re alright mate”…. or the one you hear all the time “I’m not racist but ………”…. The political discourse that Howard started, Hanson pushed further and has continued has allowed that more hidden racism to become very blunt… Now you see Islamaphobia everywhere.. seeing the comments on some pages are terrible and terrifying..

Greg RapmundJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:09 pm

Agree totally, Michael, a completely and totally disgraceful, shameful nation we have become. Sharing this with friends in Berlin, France, Sweden.

lawrencewinderJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:10 pm

Applause for that article.
We are a divided nation but the real cracks haven’t appeared yet.
The Liarbrils and their thought-bubble designers, the IPA are doing all they can to keep this division on the boil.
This is the ugliest, most immoral government with the most rancid set of advisors I have ever seen and I am genuinely frightened for the future with the way this rabble is heading.
Catholic priest, Fr. Bob McGuire even came out today warning against the teaching of religion in schools and asking us to look back to the Germany of the 30’s as an example of how this sort of thing can go horribly wrong and said that although he didn’t think that the people promulgating the idea were necessarily evil or had evil intent, they had better be cautious in what they wished for.

mrharmony60January 12, 2014 at 4:12 pm

As always, great piece Michael. Like many, I feel like I’m a stranger in my own land now. Australia has become a country populated by mean & greedy people. I believe the rot started under Howard, when asylum seekers first became a political issue to be cynically exploited for votes.

I live in one of the most blue ribbon seats in the country, and am gobsmacked at the attitudes I find here. Whether it’s climate change denial, hatred of asylum seekers, or just the plain lack of compassion for those less fortunate than we. I cop abusive emails for daring to criticize our new PM in the letters page of my local rag, for one letter of criticism there are five cheering Abbott on. A journalist friend of mine from Singapore tells me there are plenty of people around the world wondering what the hell is going on down here. I’m now ashamed to call myself an Aussie.

cornlegendJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:12 pm

michelle
I was actually surprised that it was as low as 60%
I come from a region that was built on the back of “Immigrants”
Listen to the talk in any club or pub when Asylum seekers are discussed, and it does come as a bit of a shock when you hear the attitudes, not just from the white anglos but from past immigrants. as well.
Not much will change while MSM, and both major parties maintain their current position

lawrencewinderJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:22 pm

“Shane”…you might try a little research on why certain ethnic groups, races and specific religious groups are so desperate to leave their homelands… there is NO orderly queue when the Taliban have just murdered your family and attacked you with machetes for being an infidel… also when you learn to spell, you can then tell others they are wankers!

Fed upJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:25 pm

We have had Abbott, on commercial radio this week, saying only 20% at the most are true asylum seekers. He gives Carr’s comment as proof.

Trouble is, Carr was talking about it a handful from Sri Lanka, not asylum seekers in general. It appears they are no longer coming.

Abbott at the same time, voiced his horror of those drunken louts that go around “king hitting”. Of course he did emphasize, that it was nothing to do with him. Up to the states. Did not explain why he backed down from having an inquiry into alcohol and its effect on society. Yes, looking at grog and the damage it does across all. Seems though, it is OK to go ahead, once again, into how it affects the indigenous community. Cannot upset the alcohol industry, Cannot have that,. Yes, there is much Abbott can do, but he chooses not to.

This is a government that practices aggression at every turn. One only had to listen to the manner, he announced his new education manipulation. Voice very angry and aggressive. If thou say, I am the boss, this is what I will do, and you the public can lump it.

Even Abbott’s dealing with Indonesia, appears to be that of a bully.

Yes, get people to fear and hate, and one can get away with anything.

Dan RowdenJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:27 pm

I was also totally shocked when I saw this poll. But like others I’d like to see the detail, plus my partner pointed something out to me that might form some small measure of mitigation; namely, that a lot of people have their perception of our treatment of detainees fed to them by the Murdoch press. i.e. all they really hear about is the free dentistry, free access to lawyers etc etc and the whole panoply of bullshit. That means their idea of how detainees are currently treated doesn’t have much relationship to the reality. They really do believe that detainees are far better off than they actually are.

I doubt many, if any, Murdoch outlets reported recent UNHCR and Amnesty reports etc. Combine that with the constant crap about illegality, economic rather than real refugees etc and maybe this result isn’t that surprising. The result is still horrid, but possibly not as horrid as it might otherwise be. Maybe. Perhaps. Possibly. Hopefully.

John RoweJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:29 pm

I grew up proud of my adopted country. I believed we were free, open and generous. We were a country dismissive of class, free of arrogance and prejudice. This was a great country to be a citizen of. We could hold our head high anywhere in the world. Yes, I was young. I am 50 now and I know a lot more. I am ashamed of my fellow Australians. I am disgusted by my Government. I look around and I feel nothing but sadness and dismay. Where is that country I loved? Where are the people who will fight for the values I thought we had?

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:31 pm

Whether it equates to 60% of Australians or 6% of Australians, it doesn’t matter. Those among that number are pieces of, well, you know what I think.

mars08January 12, 2014 at 5:32 pm

Dan Rowden says: “….pointed something out to me that might form some small measure of mitigation; namely, that a lot of people have their perception of our treatment of detainees fed to them by the Murdoch press. i.e. all they really hear about is the free dentistry, free access to lawyers etc etc and the whole panoply of bullshit. That means their idea of how detainees are currently treated doesn’t have much relationship to the reality. ”

That’s the only thread i have to cling to. It’s the only explanation I can find to stop me flying off the handle. There are even some fools who believe that asylum-seekers are asking for iPhones and boob jobs when they are intercepted by the Navy. People who accept those stories would, no doubt, love to see the asylum-seekers knocked down a few pegs.

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:32 pm

JDH2285, my grandfather was an illegal immigrant. What have you to say about that? Do you want me to leave?

John FraserJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:35 pm

Don't expect the coward Abbott to do anything.

DanielJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:47 pm

“I think I made it explicitly clear that I was responding to the 60% – whoever they were – who, when polled, wanted harsher treatment.

If, by chance, the majority of the country do think like that then I’m quite happy to insult them.”

No actually you didnt, half your article (actually its not even an opinion piece) is quotes and its poorly written and laid out for someone with a degree. If you want to write personal opinion go do it on a personal blog and dont use independant news to push your agenda, all you do is lower the calibre of the news network and give it the credibility of a rag.

P.S. I happen to agree with you, just not the manner in which you put it across which makes you no better than main stream media.

Fed upJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:49 pm

Yep, when I was a child, between the Irish and the Brits. Also war between Catholics and Protestants. Yes, it was real.

Do as Father Maguire said today, on ABC 24. Google the HISTORY OF Catholic church in Australia

Makes fascinating reading. Catholics sure knew their place, especially when it comes to the careers they could pursue.

Makes fascinating reading.

Maybe Pyne, as a Catholic better read it. Might not be so keen to go back to that time, if he did.

What is a fact, Abbott was on commercial radio, stirring up that hate. That cannot be a coincident.

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 4:54 pm

“To that sixty percent:

You are disgusting pieces of low-life shit.”

Excuse me, youre insulting a majority of this country because of a cross-section of data which doesn’t prove any hard numbers at all? Theres only one piece of shit here and it comes in the form of your so called article

I think I made it explicitly clear that I was responding to the 60% – whoever they were – who, when polled, wanted harsher treatment.

If, by chance, the majority of the country do think like that then I’m quite happy to insult them.

the active one.January 12, 2014 at 6:03 pm

Any POLL taken by a Murdoch Media mouthpiece will always come up with a result that favors right wing racists,.

Pingback: You are a disgrace to our nation | Café Whispers

Richard Leggatt.January 12, 2014 at 6:09 pm

Dear JDH2285 I take it from what you said that you are an Aboriginal?

adjective: aboriginal

1. inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists; indigenous.
;
original, earliest, first, initial;
ancient, primitive, primeval, primordial;

“the area’s aboriginal inhabitants”
relating to the Australian Aborigines or their languages.

adjective: Aboriginal

Because guess what? The rest of us are illegal immigrants that arrived by boat! (or plane)

greenbelieverJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:10 pm

I do not accept that this POLL wherever it was taken and whichever questions were asked in any way is representative of the PEOPLE of Australia.
I have 2 homes which I move between due to caring for my father aged,92 at night. I can absolutely assure you that the Syrians on one side of one and the chinese on the other side and the mostly Chinese in the street in the ST George area Sydney do not support the imprisonment of asylum seekers. They have told me it causes them HURT because the entire thing is racist.
The syrians are even clearer” what about our poor people they say.” Syria is finished where will they go?
My other home in the western suburbs where there is a huge range of different background Australians in the neighbourhood. There is no marked difference except that they say that checks have to be made before they are allowed entry.
My colleagues at work do not support this either because they are concerned about the international ramifications in the future.
They also see the ramped up posturing of Australia against Indonesia in this as a threat to our security for the future. These people are teachers.
Out of the more than a hundred people I spoke to there were only 3 who said that Australia is better oFF without the asylum seekers.

Dan RowdenJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:13 pm

Babu Bhatt,

Asylum seekers complain about everything? They barely have a voice, let alone one to complain with, dickhead.

The active one,

The story and the poll have no connection to the Murdoch press that I can see. Perhaps you could point it out?

Dan RowdenJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:22 pm

I think we have to be careful assigning value and attitude to specific issues based on a person’s voting habit. I was and remain appalled at the direction Labor has taken with respect to the issue of asylum seekers, but that one issue is not enough to put my vote elsewhere. There are lots of Liberal voters who would likewise be appalled at what their party is doing on this issue.

It’s currently a monumentally complex social issue. The only thing that can be said for sure is that both major parties have walked a road to perdition on this matter (unless you don’t give a shit about human suffering, in which case you won’t see things that way).

Dan RowdenJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:25 pm

Babu Bhatt,

I bow to your ineffable eloquence and sublime wordsmithery. Paint me jealous.

Mike 1January 12, 2014 at 6:38 pm

The question is, where does Abbott take us from here ? No Ideas and hiding behind silence, shows this man as he really is, NOTHING.

cornlegendJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:40 pm

I think it’s a bit wrong to just blame the pollsters, or who commissioned the polls.
As much as a lot of us didn’t want to face up to it, they were pretty well spot on in the 2013 election
These same pollsters
Think we need to forget about who commissioned or conducted the polls and concentrate on changing opinions of our fellow Australians

GilJanuary 12, 2014 at 5:42 pm

mmm because internet polls with multiple choice are a great way to get a accurate look at the real thoughts of the whole nation. shitheel.

duggy47January 12, 2014 at 5:47 pm

I’ve been thinking a bit about this survey. A thousand is quite a small sample but memory says it is about the minimum number to be respectable. Don’t know what the question(s) were – the possibility of blatant push polling from nine msm shouldn’t be discounted BUT……… If it credibly reflects the current Australian attitude to this issue we need to ask why. Simply venting against our fellow citizens although cathartic and understandable isn’t enough. Surely this is the result of a five or six years blitz of short-sighted, self-interested lying from both our major political parties. Driven by poll driven perception of what they believe voters in key (mostly) NSW marginal seats want to hear, one or both of the major parties have lied about the scale of the asylum seeker problem promoting the view that we are (or run the risk of being) swamped by uninvited boat arrivals.

They lie about the status of those that arrive this way continuing to claim that they are arriving illegally. They lie about their motivation for coming to Australia claiming that almost all who arrive this way are ‘economic migrants’. They lie about our international obligations claiming that our disgraceful shameful policies do not constitute a breach of these. Faced with the truth about all of these matters they continue to lie – either ignoring or attempting to discredit the truth speakers whether they be the Courts, the United Nations or refugee advocates and experts of one sort or another.

They have been substantially supported by the MSM but if we are fair all the lies have all been adequately shown to be just that by the mass media. Any punter who wants the real truth can easily find it just by paying a modicum of attention. The politicians well know that the punters don’t want to be bothered by headache inducing complexity and are irresistibly attracted to short simple explanations and straightforward easily understood responses. Both major parties have supplied these in spades since Rudd became PM. What we can see from this example is that if our elected representatives simply persist with their ‘Orwellian’ project ‘truth’ becomes whatever they wish it to be. Our elected representatives have learned this lesson well and can be expected to continue shepherding public opinion into whatever corral they think best suits their desire to wield power onto the future. ‘Asylum seekers’ is just the vehicle of the moment.

Perhaps before the righteous indignation overflows we might remind ourselves that 90% of Australian voters (which certainly includes a solid majority of AIMN readers) aided this project to deceive Australians and heap cruelty and indignation on those who reach out to us for help by voting for the deceivers. That is a pretty good measure of the state of democracy in Australia in 2014.

Doug Evans

roboleninJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:47 pm

How far have we sunk as a nation to even ask the question “should ASYLUM SEEKERS be treated MORE HARSHLY”?
It’s repugnant in the extreme.

jennandcoJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:53 pm

It doesn’t seem ideal to address hatred with more hatred. That’s the pot calling the kettle black. Most people on this forum would be above average intelligence. The general population only has the MSM to understand their views from. I think the hatred here is misplaced. Heap it on the powers that be, not on the people who have not the resources to know differently to what they are told. I read once about how many Germans had no idea of what was happening to other peoples in Hitler’s Germany. The rest were so brainwashed, they just did what they were told, even though deep down they didn’t agree with it.

It’s not the people in the survey that need bashing, its the people who are manipulating their information.

Mike 1January 12, 2014 at 6:56 pm

Mr Bahbu Bhatt, There is no need to get on your bike without handle bars. Your whole rant is just that, a rant. Can you add to the discussion or should you infest the “Australian” with nonsensical nonsense ?

Carol TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:00 pm

On should asylum seekers be treated more harshly, this is specifically forbidden by the Treaties which Australia signed. Imagine if Jewish/gypsy refugees fleeing for example Nazi Germany were put in a small boat somewhere off the coast of Africa and told “go back where you came from, you’re illegal!”. This would cause outrage.

From time immemorial all Christian nations have agreed that those who seek asylum (from the time when reaching the church door meant the ability to claim asylum), should be treated according to the rule of law. This differerence was especially noted WW2 when the Japanese treated Australians so appallingly. We recognised that this is not how civilised nations behave, and in fact it is unlawful for nations to take punitive action/punish those who wish to claim asylum. Australia continues to tread a fine line.

GöbbelsJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:07 pm

HEIL HITLER.

cornlegendJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:12 pm

Doug.
Now this is just downright wrong
“Perhaps before the righteous indignation overflows we might remind ourselves that 90% of Australian voters (which certainly includes a solid majority of AIMN readers) aided this project to deceive Australians and heap cruelty and indignation on those who reach out to us for help by voting for the deceivers. That is a pretty good measure of the state of democracy in Australia in 2014.”

We went to a general election, with a whole host of issues to to consider.
We did not have a referendum on Asylum seeker policy
On your logic, 90% of the population think the Greens are a waste of space.,
That was your assumption was it not ?
Didn’t vote Greens , you’re guilty of this sort of asylum seeker rubbish

Carol TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:13 pm

Jack Tarr, if such a percentage of opinion is an accurate reflection of our society’s attitude, then it’s probably best that we know about it.

It’s only a Fairfax survey, however over the years I have found them at least a tad less right-wing biased than the often loaded questions coming from the Murdoch media. I have a horrible feeling that if the same poll was conducted by any of the Murdoch mega-stable that we might be seeing results around 80% against.

I do not blame the public, especially those who have been brought up in households to fear “the other”, ie anyone who does not have 4 nose piercings including 10 cent size holes in each earlobe, 4 large (coloured) tatooes, and who cannot name one single Kardashian sister. That is, they believe precisely that which is presented in front of them, the stories which sneer, the stories which tell you to be fearful, the stories that tell you that these people are wealthy rorting/queue jumpers. I cannot recall one single solitary sympathetic story relating to any person who has successfully sought asylum in Australia which has been presented in a positive light.

Mark RJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:14 pm

If it wasn’t for the fact they can vote, I wouldn’t give a shit what ignorant, racist rednecks think … assuming they can …

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:15 pm

I do not accept that this POLL wherever it was taken and whichever questions were asked in any way is representative of the PEOPLE of Australia.

Hi greenbeliever, that may well be the case. The point is, however, that some people want the asylum seekers treated more harshly and my post was directed at them. As I said above, it is irrelevant if the the figure is 60% or 6% – those people are very low in my opinion.

Betrt HobbsJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:16 pm

Whether this is an accurate statistic or not, the fact is Australians now have more license than ever before to express a view against minorities. This is because since Keating’s leaving the political stage, little Jonny effectively engineered a culture of entitlement and fear. Labour has failed utterly in consistently putting forward an alternative proposition. Whilst Gillard was an outstanding administrator, there has been no vision, wisdom or grace shown on the Asylum Seekers issue since that terrible Tampa day when Beasley gave Howard everything he wanted. We are now paying the price with an ugly take on Australian values, being propagated by the evil Murdoch empire and a growing fascist government. Unless a leader emerges, on either side of politics, with a strong moral compass, Australia’s days as a cohesive nation, on the world stage as a moral leader, are over. Abbott thus far is doing a brilliant job in making this grotesque nightmare become a reality.

John FraserJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:17 pm

Looks like the coward Abbott's cowardly supporters are here …. but to cowardly to put their names up.

Lets hope they post a real good one that can be passed onto the Australian Federal Police so that action can be taken under the Telecommunications Act.

Would just love to see one of them written up in Murdoch's newspaper getting their computer/phone equipment confiscated.

ha ha ha go for it cowards.

TimePasserJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:25 pm

Yes Michael, we now live among strangers… and I don’t mean refugees! I do not know where the national character, decency and moral fibre of our country has gone. The demonising of refugees; the vilification of our first female Prime Minister; the deceit and hypocrisy of our current ‘leaders’; the blatant bias of the MSM; the lack of backbone of the ABC……

Do we really need to wonder why so many Australians want a harsher treatment of refugees when they have been led by the example of the LNP and Murdoch press over the past six years in a disgraceful campaign of hatred against those who stood in their way.

What mixed message did it send to our children when newspapers belittled our members of Parliament and portrayed them as dictators in the same week as the National day of Action Against Bullying and Violence? No respect for our representatives. No legitimate concern about bullying in schools or anywhere else – it’s just another useful weapon. No gratitude or even recognition for the fact that we have, until now, lived in a peaceful, compassionate society, free from the stresses of war, oppression, conflict…. and real dictators….from which others flee.

What a joke for Tony Abbott to now condemn alcohol fuelled violence when he had no compunction about standing in front of the ‘Ditch The Witch’ posters where the only missing ingredient was alcohol. No harmony of thought, word and deed. No concept that thoughts lead to words and then to deeds.

When those at the top lack character and integrity, what can we expect from the rest of the population who follow like sheep?

Dan RowdenJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:28 pm

Michael,

Dan, I’ve deleted that idiot’s comments.

I noticed. He was a bit rude, wasn’t he? 🙂

Carol TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:30 pm

Mark R, what concerns me is how the racists have been able influence public opinion and weak-kneed politicians seem to be unable to stand up to them. This then becomes policy and is passed via Acts of Parliament and into law.

How the crowd cheers when politicians “come down hard on”, asylum seekers/single mothers/Aboriginal people/the unemployed/the disabled – or anyone perceived to be A Rorter in the opinion of the shock-jock brigade.

This latest from Abbott is of course standard fare, a look over there moment to distract from the abysmal, inept job he has done since taking over as PM. And it works too, see how we are now all discussing Abbott’s topic of choice and one where he knows he is on a winner – asylum seekers. Abbott will continue to do appalling things to asylum seekers because it makes headlines, and headlines where he is the winner. Slap them in irons, bring out the cat-o-nine tails just for political purposes? Of course Abbott would…

John FraserJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:34 pm

Lets see who the right wing nazis are :

http://www.theage.com.au/queensland/video-of-misfits-biker-jamie-evans-goes-viral-20140112-30oj9.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TMOiMopMCU

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:41 pm

Dan, I’ve deleted that idiot’s comments. 🙂

Brian LeonardJanuary 12, 2014 at 6:46 pm

I am constantly dismayed & saddened by the level of intolerance that Australians show for others. You see this in the treatment of Aboriginals & it is on full show in the treatment of asylum seekers. I came here in ’96 not knowing that the boat was about to turn on attitudes to others. Howard took on & implemented much of the racist Hanson’s policies, he saw electoral benefit in such. This continued under a weak Labor govt, fearful of not having the racist rump of Australia in it’s corner. Now Abborts has the helm & the ships of Humanity, Tolerance & Compassion have well and truly set sail. I refused to become an Australian after Tampa & I still refuse to put my name and identity with a country as racist & benighted as this.

allenmcmahonJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:53 pm

That there is some magical queue is a myth. Based on the 2012 UNHCR figures it would take 172 years for all of the refugees to be resettled. In Indonesia there are 10,000 people in UNHCR camps and they are full. Estimates vary but there are between 10,000 -15,000 unregistered refugees in Indonesia. Only 600 were resettled in the last financial year. In Thailand 140,000 Rohingya in PNG 9,000 West Papuans and the list goes on.

Mike 1January 12, 2014 at 7:59 pm

I sent a letter to the Guardian, saying this man was not an Idiot, but Dangerous. They rejected my email. It seems as though it is coming true.

Jack TarrJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:00 pm

The question really is not whether it is 60 % of the Oz population (600,000) or 60% of the sample of 1000 people (600). The question is why… What is the purpose of this SMH survey except to provoke foment and further the aims of those that would divide this nation. Who benefits..? certainly not the 60%. They will pay dearly along with the other 40%…

Are you one of the 60 %..?? check it out… have you got someone pissing in your pocket..??

They pissed in the pockets of the boys that went to Gallipoli too remember.

Jack Tarr

joniJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:08 pm

I weep for my country.

WendyJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:10 pm

I think this is a fake poll or only filled in by Abbott & co

Miriam EnglishJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:20 pm

One of the ways the Nazis controlled the population was to convince the majority of rational, humane people that they were actually in the minority. I think this is what Abbott is up to here. I can think of only a couple of people that I know who think the asylum seekers should have a harder time of it, and those honestly don’t know what the real situation is because of all the stupefying Murdoch propaganda.

I don’t believe the majority of Australians are greedy, vicious scum. And those who are caught up in this nasty xenophobia are just hapless dupes of the slimy Murdoch media.

Don’t abandon your fellows yet. They are being scared into shutting their mouths, making the bullies’ job easier. Don’t keep your opinions to yourselves. Let everybody know what is being done in their name. Don’t let Abbott repeat the Nazi’s calamitous rule. He seems to be using all the tricks in their playbook.

Personally, I think the root of the asylum seeker problem is the fact that we have national borders. Get rid of the borders and we eliminate the problem. Borders simply let us keep our wealth and privilege and lie to ourselves that we don’t need to help others. Eliminating the borders would mean that if we want to keep the standard of living we’ve become accustomed to, then we have to fix the problems elsewhere that cause people to flee to where we live. Realistically though, I doubt national borders are likely to be abolished in the next few decades, so I probably won’t live to see a world where all are brothers and sisters. It is a pity.

Jill cameronJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:27 pm

I don’t believe that 60% of Australians are as bad as this poll indicates.I wonder how many actually travel to third world countries, how many have any news other than Murdoch controlled media? How many only know what they are being told?

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 7:31 pm

Dan, he snuck back again under a different ISP but it was traced to the same location. He’s determined to show everybody that he has some serious personal issues.

Carol TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:32 pm

Cathy, I tend to agree..imagine if it was a poll via Twitter as an example, then you would be catching a younger demographic.

mars08January 12, 2014 at 8:44 pm

Let’s assume the poll is wildly inaccurate. Can I assume that most Australians have not problem with the way off-shore asylum seekers are CURRENTLY treated?? I mean, there’s barely a whisper of concern in the MSM about their plight. There’s more outrage about shark culling in WA, Japanese whaling in the Southern Ocean and battery hens…

hi2leaJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:48 pm

Reblogged this on hi2lea.

RoswellJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:50 pm

mars08, it wouldn’t surprise me if 60% of Australians also want to Abbott Government to be harsher towards battery hens.

iTmJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:50 pm

Response from this low-life piece of shit: Firstly I believe that the author of the article has taken journalistic liberties. The SMH survey question was about harsher treatment, not violating human rights. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE! If I was to say rapists deserve harsher treatment, I bet I would get 99% support. How about some journalistic integrity for a change. Michael Taylor, your editorial is based on a misrepresentation of statistics to promote your own agenda. Human rights issues can survive on their own merits, the story has enough legs without needing to resort to politically biased sensationalism. This 60%er wants to protect our strained taxation system and collapsing jobs market. Not abuse the most vulnerable. If you don’t like it, go live somewhere else. Try to find a first world country that has journalism on its list of desirable special skills to qualify for permanent residency… Worldwide there are 10’s of millions of people that could be classified as refugees. Should we accept all of them? How many countries does an Afghan refugee cross before getting to Australia? What was wrong with any of those 11 countries? Answer, they aren’t prosperous or don’t allow refugees. If you look at the history of our immigration policies, they were introduced by labor governments (under union pressure) to protect jobs and prosperity. The circumstances haven’t changed much and, with the exception of racist clauses, nor have the policies. The figure of 60% shouldn’t be a surprise either, it is roughly the percentage of the population that voted for the current government I am guessing that they are happy with their choice.

RoswellJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:52 pm

The, not to.

thesamemountainJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:58 pm

Michael, your distress at the treatment of our refugees resonates with mine, although your delivery of your message does not. I agree it is so hard to comprehend how ordinary, loving, generally kind human beings could apparently have such a cruel view about the treatment of other human beings. I encourage you and your readers to watch at least the first three minutes of this presentation by prominent researcher Prof Steven Hayes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvknG2nXIVU&feature=youtu.be which goes someway to explain how people can seem so heartless – and begins to offer a remedy.
As for me, I welcome the boats, and I am so, so ashamed of our government right now.
Tiffany

John FraserJanuary 12, 2014 at 9:02 pm

@iTm

Is this what you mean :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TMOiMopMCU

Your idea of "politically biased sensationalism" will probably follow Murdoch's media fully supporting the extreme right wing evangelical newman LNP.

Check your facts when you make this statement …. "The figure of 60% shouldn’t be a surprise either, it is roughly the percentage of the population that voted for the current government I am guessing that they are happy with their choice.".

Because all of it is totally wrong.

Carol TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 9:12 pm

thesamemountain, and empathising is that which the msm wants to avoid at all costs, as how can you demonise a person who you empathise with? This is why Howard banned photos when a number were published of small children locked away in desert concentration camps. We have likewise noted “harsh” photos of refugees rather than positive compassionate ones – an example being a story of unaccompanied minors, boys however the accompanying pic was of mature unshaven men. It’s an old journalist trick, a negative image is worth a 1,000 words. Abbott has continued to deny these people a fair hearing, hardly the Aussie ethic of a fair go – that is, they cannot be genuine because they arrived by boat when the truth/the stats reveal a completely different story. At bare minimum these people deserve to have their claim heard, this is a democracy and not as many have noted Nazi Germany where ethnic minorities were routinely demonised.

Cathy CorbittJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:12 pm

Keep your cool! We’re talking 60% of those who read the SMH – not 60% of Australians. If we were talking 60% of Australians, I agree that we would have much to worry about and that we were beginning to reflect Nazi Germany.

KerriJanuary 12, 2014 at 9:13 pm

Completely agree Michael!! I am in an ongoing battle with my undereducated brother and his equally narrow minded wife about what exactly asylum seekers do get??? They are completely gullible, as are the 60% in my opinion. The paranoia combined with gutter journalism and an extraordinary campaign via email and social media to spread absolute bull$hit vilifying people trying to escape certain death. The Xmas post involved a complete fabrication about 2 little old ladies who went to a shopping centre and were baffled to find no Santa (for photos) no decorations and worst of all NO PORK,!!! Anywhere in the centre. Oblivious to the damage being done to the centre the post was blindly reposted and reposted and reposted. As far as I could tell the poster was from Ballarat and the post was about Broadmeadows and yet they argued it was true!!! The website for the shopping centre opened to it’s “have your photo taken with Santa” competition??? The whole story was crap!! I emailed centre management who bemoaned their inability to stop it and confirmed they would just have to wait for the slur “to run its course”. I have warned my relatives to beware that the law will eventually catch up with this blatant slander and reposting, without due diligence, would leave them wide open to prosecution. It taked 5 minutes to Google these stories and yet your 60% of arrogant xenophobes wouldn’t even bother!!! It is long overdue that there be some means of reporting and prosecuting these people who seek to stir up racial hatred by confecting total nonsense for their own paranoid and selfish ends. I am not a lawyer but surely these posts and emails should be subject to racial vilification laws???
I am very ashamed to be related to people of such a narrow mind, such extraordinary paranoia and such unfathomable lack of empathy!!! Thank you Michael for bringing this appaling situation out in the open for discussion. I greatly fear, however, you are preaching to the converted. If you can be imprisoned in Qld for meeting with friends who belong to the same association as you then there is clearly no room for accepting persecuted peoples. Where is this country headed?

Carol TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 9:14 pm

Brian, apparently according Abbott, burquas are “confronting”, yet not a problem with 15 year old girls in wet t-shirt competitions. Which one is demeaning….

cornlegendJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:26 pm

It doesn’t say anywhere who commissioned this poll
Just it was done by UMR
and “Reported” in the SMH

UMR research

Managing Director Australia
former Labor Party pollster John Utting

The poll, based on a nationally representative sample of 1000 online interviews

A strong majority of Australians, 60 per cent, also want the Abbott government to “increase the severity of the treatment of asylum seekers.”

Groups most strongly favouring harsher policies are older Australians (aged over 70 years – 68 per cent), and self-employed people (71 per cent). People in Queensland and Western Australia are slightly more supportive of a more severe approach (65 per cent and 64 per cent respectively) than in Victoria and NSW (both 62 per cent).

Only 30 per cent of Australians think asylum seekers should not be treated more severely, while 9 per cent are unsure.

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:31 pm

Joni!!!

How’s England? We still must get over there.

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:33 pm

I don’t believe that 60% of Australians are as bad as this poll indicates

You’re no doubt right, Jill. but the fact that some think like the “60%” – whether it’s a valid figure or not, is still disgraceful.

Adele PugsleyJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:48 pm

No one choses to be born in to poverty. We applaude those who endevour to remove themselves. Hail them as heros in fact.

Yet so many are quite prepared to say to people, including children, who attempt to remove themselves from something so, so much worse you have no right to seek a better life and we certainly are not going to assist you. In fact hold the belief that to assist is somehow going diminish their own lifestyle. There is no point in trying to shame these individuals, I think that they have sunk to such depths they just do not care.

This heartbreaking reality must be how many, many persons felt when Hilter’s calls of threats to people’s lifestyles by cultures not his own reverberated in the 1930’s. Well I for one will not sit quietly while the Liberal regime and it’s associates in the mainstram media end our country down the same ugly, twisted path.

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 8:59 pm

If you don’t like it, go live somewhere else.

Thanks iTm, but where should I go given that my father is Aborigine?

And perhaps while I’m looking for a flight you can re-read the article. Hopefully you might get it right the second time?

Michael TaylorJanuary 12, 2014 at 9:00 pm

thesamemountain, I was fairly p*ssed off when I wrote the post. 😉

chris mcdonaldJanuary 12, 2014 at 10:02 pm

Arseholes not Assholes. it is still Australia after all. i’ll let course language slip by 🙂 Agree completely with the sentiment.

BrianJanuary 12, 2014 at 9:03 pm

The result of all that fine leadership material we’ve voted into office in recent years. Monkey see, monkey do. All the aussie pride I see spruiking it’s beer swilling, fag sucking, fully sick bogan lifestyle makes want to puke in the nearest lap.

joniJanuary 12, 2014 at 10:13 pm

Migs/Min – I’m good – cold in London today.

I think that the poll is really a response to the fear that is spread by the MSM. The public feel that asylum seekers are being treated nicely because that is what the MSM tells them.

My fear is that this is just the start.

dee255January 12, 2014 at 10:23 pm

iTm, did you SERIOUSLY just compare asylum seekers to rapists???

Since you’re obviously one of the slow kids, let me dumb it down for you: It. Is. Not. Illegal. To. Seek. Asylum. Dickhead.

allenmcmahonJanuary 12, 2014 at 10:28 pm

If you want to see compassion for asylum seekers you won’t find it among our politicians, or among many of our fellow citizens but you will find it our detention centers.

Since being outed by the doctors on Christmas Island, our recently mute Minister for Immigration and all around good christian Mr. Morrison has been transferring pregnant women from Darwin and Christmas Island to Inverbrackie APOD in SA.

Most of the women arrive alone, having been separated from their families, and when they arrive they physical and mental wrecks. There are few Vietnamese and Rohingya in Inverbrackie so these women in particular are socially isolated as well. It is wonderful to see how the Tamils families have responded, taking care of the new arrivals, inviting them into their homes ,sharing meals and treating them with respect and compassion.

Many of the Tamils have been in detention for over a year, some have spent long months in the hell hole that is Manus Island. Rather than being embittered by this experience they can still reach out to others that are suffering, treat them with kindness and offer their friendship.

It makes me feel ashamed when I know of what they have be subjected to by my fellow countrymen.

Vicki WilcoxJanuary 12, 2014 at 10:55 pm

Walk a mile in their shoes,live in camps,escape to hopefully to freedom…I would do anything humanly possible to try and save my family….isn’t there enough persecution in this world already….the Australia that I grew up in has gone….what in the hell is wrong with compassion and helping our fellow man….after all we are one world and we all have to share it…

Ralph CruickshankJanuary 12, 2014 at 10:57 pm

Unfortunately, it is how I’ve been watching this country descend into depravity for some time and the survey merely backs up what my own thoughts have been. I cannot put my finger on where or when this began to happen, but I suspect that the process has gathered pace. We are a nation of self seekers who are so insecure about our place in the world. If we aren’t beating some other country at some game or other, it almost seems as if we don’t exist. Whatever happened to the old Australian idea of a “fair go”? When did we lose the ability to laugh at ourselves as well as others?
If it weren’t for refugees in the past, we’d have no Snowy Mountains scheme, no Tasmanian Hydro scheme, no bloody pizza, fetta cheese, pita bread, olives, past, tapas, Chinese and Asian cuisine. I sincerely hope the insular 60% do not partake of any of these benefits that have come from opening up our shores in the past. They most certainly do not speak for me. Heartless cockheads.

Fed upJanuary 12, 2014 at 11:13 pm

Ralph, it is easy to detect where it began. It began with Howard, with his divide and rule tactics, followed up with creating fear within the community.

One gets away with a lot, when one has a war to fight.

The first thing to go, is the fights of the people. All in the name of protecting one from an evil fate.

Then along came Abbott, who believes that winning is not enough, that one has to destroy one/s opponent. Wipe any trace of them from history,.

Then one takes their far right ideology, create envy within the population, demonizing all those in need.

Create a climate of entitlement and greed.

Result, what we have today.

Having a proven bully for PM, is the icing on the cake, for the extreme right, which this government is comprised of.

John FraserJanuary 12, 2014 at 11:14 pm

Whoops !

The conversation has progressed while I have been watching the old LNP on SBS.

SBS TV viewers will probably know it as "Generation War' and next week will be Part 2 of the 3 part series.

Matters not.January 12, 2014 at 11:28 pm

Joni said:

really a response to the fear that is spread by the MSM

Yes (sort of) but why is it so successful? Perhaps we need to look at the concept of ‘ethnocentrism’ explained as:

individuals judge other groups relative to their own ethnic group or culture, especially with concern for language, behavior, customs, and religion.

… People born into a particular culture that grow up absorbing the values and behaviors of the culture will develop a worldview that considers their culture to be the norm

… since people are accustomed to their birth culture, it can be difficult for them to see the behaviors of people from a different culture from the viewpoint of that culture rather than from their own.

All societies/cultures are ethnocentric. It’s ‘natural or ‘normal’ or whatever. But through a ‘robust’ education system people should understand that their worldview is a social/cultural ‘construct’. Nothing ‘absolute’ about it. It’s a ‘relative’ view. One among a whole range of possibilities.

But it doesn’t happen. Nor is it likely to in the future.

olddaveyJanuary 12, 2014 at 10:36 pm

Michael,
Can we use the word “arsehole” instead of “asshole”? An “asshole” is the hole in the back end of an ass (a rather nice unassuming creature) and is an Americanism we can do without.
“Arsehole” also has a much nicer ring to it.

John FraserJanuary 12, 2014 at 11:36 pm

@William Braggs

Thanks for that.

I always like to hear from closet gay people.

You should think about coming out.

It will ease some of that latent hostility you are displaying.

DeanoJanuary 12, 2014 at 11:45 pm

Of course the majority of people are selfish ignorant pieces of shit what fantasy world do you live in to imagine they aren’t, who are the main opinion makers in this country, loud shit stirring shock jocks like Alan Jones and the rats at Newscorp, they managed to bring down Julia Gillard and operate like a PR firm for Tony Abbott, Australia just gets more right wing and bogan every day

mars08January 12, 2014 at 11:49 pm

Under a new fee structure, media professionals will pay $8,000 to apply for a single-entry visa for Nauru. The money will not be refunded even if the application were rejected. That should keep the riffraff out…

allenmcmahonJanuary 12, 2014 at 11:56 pm

Hi William; is there a typo in your post surely you grew up in Broadmoor not Broadmeadows.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 12:07 am

I really don’t get it… how do darling chaps like William Braggs even find these discussions to post their brainfarts? Do they sense a disturbance in the fArce or something?

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:19 am

@Michael Taylor

I thought they only had a small penis and only 1 small nut.

Are you saying they have a small brain to go with it.

duggy47January 12, 2014 at 11:20 pm

Cornlegend above
You are right and wrong I think. The number is not as high as 90%. I wrote that without thinking clearly about the issue. In fact 78% of Australians voted either for the LNP coalition or the ALP and by so doing condoned our treatment of asylum seekers. No other way to put it – uncomfortable as many of these people doubtless were about the asylum seeker policies of both major parties just as it is not possible to be a little bit pregnant we don’t have an option to vote for part of the package. Vote for the Party and you tacitly accept the policies they take to the election.

I absolutely accept the anger motivating Michael Taylor’s piece but I think it misses the real point badly. A poll like this if its validity can be accepted (and that’s a very big ‘if’ I know) shows something very worrying about the state of our democracy. In particular it exemplifies the manner in which the electorate is currently manipulated by politicians from both the ‘old’ parties in the name of what they perceive to be their own best political interest. Now anyone who was among the 32% who voted for the Liberals or the 4% who voted for the Nats has elected the government directly responsible for what we are witnessing now. But the 34% of Labor voters tacitly accepted a contradictory, cruel policy position scarcely better. Both parties justify their policies with their own version of the lies I set out above.

My point is that it is not useful to blame the ‘sheeple’ who form the 60% for this poll. Responsibility lies with the politicians from BOTH the old parties who have so consistently misled Australians over this issue. I think it is useful to acknowledge the FACT that anyone who voted for either of the major parties, whatever else they may have had in mind unquestionably also voted for these policies. If you don’t like what they stand for and can’t get them to change position don’t vote for them. If you voted for them the outrage begins to sound a little hollow and you share responsibility for their actions.

IshJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:21 am

If William Braggs is representative of Australians, I think I’d actually prefer to “Go live amongst the filthy bastards” than be Australian.

IshJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:35 am

I’ll remove the quote.

IshJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:36 am

Um awkward. I cannot.

janeJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:44 am

What a deplorable attitude expressed in this poll. It seems that we have become a nasty, greedy selfish mob of uncharitable whingers.

Why is this so, when we have never been so well off?

Noah WilkieJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:46 am

I dont want to be an Australian anymore….
i want to seek Asylum from this hateful country

mars08January 13, 2014 at 12:46 am

“I thought they only had a small penis and only 1 small nut.”

Um…Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones????

Michael Taylor, you DO know he’s probably gone back to the cesspit to rally his knuckle-dragging mates?

mars08January 13, 2014 at 12:59 am

People who were in mandatory detention and eventually found to be genuine refugees but “…arrived by boat will face even more difficulty being reunited with their families following a new directive by the immigration minister to give their family migration claims the lowest priority.”

See? He’s being a wanker just for the sake of it!!! Now I suppose we need to treat genuine refugees more harshly too?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/08/refugees-family-reunion-hopes-dashed

Trevor VivianJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:10 am

Thanks for the warning that free speech is censored here because a few choice word triggers the erasor Fukem! I say. But I wish that my opinion be heard even if it offends as does Abbotts ilk offend me greatly. Keep on putting out the sentiment that is censored here for my input decreed rude or obscene. The real obscenity is the slow death of liberty!!!

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:16 am

Mars08, I wonder about that too. I’m guessing that they troll the Facebook sites that link to The AIMN. When they’re not swinging in trees they’re drooling over a keyboard. They have small brains.

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:22 am

Evidently, John. 🙂

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:26 am

I thought it’d be appropriate to remove William Bragg’s comments.

Miriam EnglishJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:29 am

@William Braggs — What a sorry piece of work you are. I’ve lived among those people and many of them are a dozen times the man you are. Racism is screwing up much of the world and you have it oozing from every pore — you stink of it.

Recently I was writing about the fact that humanity has dangerously low genetic variability — so low, in fact that the average chimpanzee tribe has more genetic resources than all the humans on this planet. From Kalahari Bushmen to blonde Swedes, from Chinese farmers to hindu Indians, from descendants of the Aztecs to the Queen of Britain, we are all genetically almost identical.

It has been suggested that the reason for this dangerous lack of genetic variability is that between 60,000 and 150,000 years ago some great disaster befell the human race, almost exterminating us and reducing our numbers to a very small number — perhaps a few dozen breeding couples. However I’ve proposed a simpler and far less dramatic explanation. I can show, with the aid of a fairly simple diagram, that if humanity is cursed with xenophobia that it will gradually deplete our genetic stocks until we reach the stage of uniformity where, like inbred showdogs we are riddled with all manner of genetic weaknesses. One of the greatest risks of low genetic variability is that a single disease could wipe us all out. This is currently the fate faced by Tasmanian Devils. Cavendish bananas too, are at risk of being wiped out because lack of variability in the banana stock means they have no resistance to an attacking fungus. Around the world, we’ve pushed many species into similarly dangerous positions.

It is a kind of bitter justice that sad halfwits like William Braggs could be our own species’ undoing.

I had hoped that humanity had turned the corner and that we’d finally got our xenophobia under control. My own family is blind to race, with members of many different nationalities among us. It makes us stronger and happier. I feel very sorry for the William Braggses of the world, and I feel sorry for humanity. We have such capability, such promise, but we are so very stupid.

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:58 am

Nah, he’s probably out looking for some freshly laid concrete to stomp in.

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:03 am

Sorry, Trevor V, but you have a couple of comments caught up in the spam filter due to a few choice words. As much as I tend to agree with your sentiment, you might need to tone it down a bit. 😉

Cheers.

Gregory TJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:22 am

The poll would have to read, 60% of the people polled,believed, “increase the severity of the treatment of asylum seekers.”, and not 60% of all Australians.

Thingsthatmatter.netJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:24 am

Asylum seekers are worthy of our compassion, but so are those who condemn them.

Just wrote this blog post in response to Michael article. I under his disgust it but I’m just looking at it from an other angle.

Asylum seekers are worthy of our compassion, but so are those who condemn them.

DocJanuary 13, 2014 at 5:17 am

I have read the original SMH article. We do not read the SMH as a matter of principle and only ever now for research purposes and let me tell you the SMH does not get a guernsey from this sociological/cultural analyst. But I digress. So I read the article thinking that I would be able to say proudly that my family and I are part of the 40% -ie those who do not believe this crud. Then I decided I was part of the 39% – uni educated, or 33% – city liver, 39% – those who do not agree with the Abbott govt attitude, 30% of those who believe the asylum seeker treatment is wrong, but then, finally, I am able to state proudly sort of, my family and I are part of the 27% – deserving of welfare assistance. ONE THOUSAND people were polled, ONE THOUSAND! not representative.
So now, I speak for the 27% those who do not want the asylum seekers treated in the way they are being treated in fact we want them treated better and we believe they are mostly genuine asylum seekers and are entitled to welfare assistance.
Of all the statistics, not one showed how many of the polled voted for Liberal or LNP coalition? Let’s make up a fun statistic too – lets say 75% – country respondents.

Jack TarrJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:35 am

@Carol Taylor… Agreed… but didn’t we already know about it with roughly the same percentage voting these current zealots in to sail our ship of shame.

My point is why would MSM be concerned the Australian public should have their say about this particular percentage of Oz social odium but not be as vigilant with protecting our rights as a nation with concerns such as the outrageous secrecy with the TPP negotiations:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/12/23/how-would-tpp-agreement-affect-australians

Jack Tarr

G'Day TPPAJanuary 13, 2014 at 5:36 am

@ Jack Tarr

You are dismythed: “Mr Robb dismissed similar critics in Australia. “It is nonsense to suggest that people are in the dark,” Mr Robb, who attended the G’Day USA ball in Los Angeles on Saturday, told AAP. He was upbeat about the countries agreeing to the TPP. “It’s ready to be sealed,” Robb said.”

Stephanie SelbyJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:27 am

As an American who’s never traveled to Australia (yet), I’ve heard a lot of bizarre stories from friends and family about your country’s culture. Unfortunately this article only serves as further evidence. I realize that not everyone in Australia is to put it mildly, a jerk, and there are a lot of great people there (such as yourself!), but it seems many Australians still have a long way to go in terms of becoming respectable human beings.

stephen cowieJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:34 am

The words “unaustralian” makes me want to vomit.

Major ItyJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:56 am

To the 30 per cent of Australians who believe that most asylum seekers are genuine refugees: we are the majority. Its called ‘Democracy’.

carlos333January 13, 2014 at 7:22 am

If you take this as a random poll, one could suggest that the “official polls” are wrong as this one shows an overwhelming support for the visa seekers. One could go as far to suggest that the polls run by the newspapers run by the banks are being manipulated, and why wouldn`t they support slavery, thats there business.

grooviechickieJanuary 13, 2014 at 7:31 am

I am VERY anti-Abbott and Co., but I must say that the ALP also treated those seeking asylum disgracefully. Rudd was booted in part because he was seen as ‘soft’ on asylum seekers, and Julia continued the denigration of our humanitarian history.

Then when Rudd turned up again, I could not believe the change in him. Geez, anything to be popular! Here he is, ‘protecting our borders’ and all that crap. It was totally fkn disgraceful.

That was the day that all hope for Australia died. And now there is no-one left to vote for.

The Greens have lost all credibility because they chucked a Meg Lees and got into bed with the LNP to increase our debt limit, so when Sarah Hanson-Young gets all puppy-dog eyes and sooks about Abbott and Co. being nasty, I have no sympathy. You made your bed, Greens, now go lie in the filth you have created. You have lost all credibility by having anything to do with them, just like the Democrats did with J’Ho.

I just want to run screaming from the society we have created. I am so despondent and depressed about Australia, I really am. We were a pretty accepting bunch, and now we’re an empty shell. Lucky country no more.

oldfartJanuary 13, 2014 at 7:59 am

My father (86), recently told me he did not want any foreigners living in his street, He meant refugees, boat people etc. I asked him when he was moving out. I then reminded him that he had dragged his wife and three children half way around the globe and arrived here in 1956. We did not fare badly from the resident rednecks. We were not of meditranean origin. My father said he was not a refugee and paid his passage. I told him he was a economic refugee from postwar europe and that most people arriving by boat had paid there passage as well.

I hope I am not xenophobic when I am 86

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:06 am

The greatest problem is not that Labor is nearly as bad. I suspect, it would never go to the lengths Abbott and co have.

The biggest trouble is, since the days of Howard and more so with Abbott, matters dealing with asylum seekers has become politicalise, when it should be treated in a bipartisan manner.

What occurs now, is each party attempting to out bid each other.

Terry2January 13, 2014 at 8:12 am

Labor did try to get a regional dialogue going with the so called Malaysia Solution and they did endeavour to work in concert with Indonesia; two things that Abbott and Morrison have abandoned as they try to go it alone.

The man who should be showing leadership now spends his time on 2GB saying that he is not ‘towing’ back boats, he is ‘pushing’ them back. It seems that, as a nation we have made some significant moral compromises to accommodate these right wing nut jobs and it has diminished us as a nation: how did it come to this ?

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:25 am

He is also on 2GB saying that only 20% are genuine. Claiming this is what Carr said. Sorry,m once again taking Carr out of context, extending what he said across all asylum seekers.

Yes, Carr did make a statement that many coming from Sri Lanka where ot genuine refugees. Not quite the same, as saying all are frauds.

Time for this mob to drop their obsessions with TPV and towing back boats. Just too expensive and unnecessary at this time.

Time to mend fences with Indonesia and I suspect other countries in the region, to work on a regional solution, and strenghting of the PNG scheme.

NO need to punish those caught up in the fiasco we have.

One cannot leave these people stranded on two small islands in the tropics for decades.

A playing bully boy with countries within the region is not in our interest.

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 7:29 am

Hi Gregory T.

It’s not so much whether the figure represents 60% of all Australians or how valid the numbers are. The figure could be 10% for all we know. The article was primarily addressed to those who think that the asylum seekers should be dealt with more harshly, no matter what their number.

Cheers.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:31 am

There is a point to how this government treats these people.

They believe if they make their lives unbearable, they will give up and return to where they came from.

This happened under Howard. No one knows what happened to those people, but evidence seems to suggest they meet fates, that was not to their benefit.

Can one label this action humane?

I expect that we will see new regulations that are to be used, to decide whether they are genuine or not.

I am sure the results will be as Abbott claims, only 20% are genuine. Of course, one will not be told why one fails. There will be no challenging decisions made. No access to the courts.

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 7:34 am

You’ll find no argument from me on that one. Labor could have done a lot better too.

Vince O'GradyJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:38 am

Thanks Michael,

Very important to realise that the so called 60% is massaged from a so called representative sample size. The people who do these surveys and I haven’t read this one use a variety of techniques to demonise all sorts of minority groups.

Of course the main demonisation comes from this government and sadly the Labor party were well wedged by the liberals into such a harsh position. They should hang their heads in shame.

In fact all of the people who agree with Abbott and Morrison should. I am speechless at their cruelty and insensitivity. And they claim to be Christians. God help us all.

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:11 am

No doubt those trolling here will have already read this :

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/senior-gold-coast-lnp-member-admits-to-trolling-online/story-fnihsrf2-1226800318164

Seeing as how they are Murdoch muppets.

cmkneippJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:50 am

All over twitter at the moment. The poll was filtered so if you didn’t give the response they wanted in the first couple of answers you got bumped off the poll. A nasty piece of sewer journalism and poll skewing if ever there was one. I don’t believe there’s anything like that percentage of people who would hold that opinion. This however is going to project to the world an ugly image of an Australia that I don’t know. My personal suspicion is that it wouldn’t take too many boats to ship the heartless racist idiots who managed to make it through the filter off to Manus island to get a taste of their own medicine.

oldfartJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:52 am

Tim Gear a senior member of the LNP? Ithought they said the adults were in charge. How old is he 14?

@terri ” how did it come to this ?”
By following right wing practice, Goebelset al, Tell people lies long enough and they believe them and unfortunately the majority did.
I think Labor need to do an about face on asylum seekers and staart treating them humanely and not have them sit in a gulag for years.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 10:11 am

There does not seem to be an issue with mental health problems of people held in our jails, so can someone explain to me how detention effects some groups of people but not others? I do not accept the conditions described without evidence and not hearsay, especially concerning the distribution of water. What solution is being offered, is it a case of simply granting ‘gratis’ entry to these refugees and their families?

A european citizen wishing to come to Australia must pass a rigid entry system with visas issued ranging from $10,000 to $40,000 per person for permanent residency. They cannot claim medicare or pension until a waiting period of a number of years has been passed, yet many here are advocating that refugees simply sail through without any checks whatsoever.

Most of our parents came here on the $20 program, because Australia at that time could offer jobs and a bettter standard of living than in their home countries, although in the early days it was tough, without any welfare or health care to speak of. They were housed in army type camps, not unsimilar to what has been described above. Many sent money ‘back home’ and many of the first generation returned to retire in their home countries with a monthly Australian pension to support them.

Cass

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:13 am

@Cassilva48

This site will help to educate you about refugees :

http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/f/myth-long.php

bjkelly1958January 13, 2014 at 10:17 am

I take and agree with your point, Michael. It doesn’t matter if the numbers are representative, it’s the fact that such an attitude exists in this nation that is the problem. Yes both the major parties proposed appalling alternative for dealing with asylum seekers. We have seen the LNP government go further than first seemed intent on going. I can only speculate what Labor would have done if returned. In either case there would be, and is, a big dog whistle to those Australians who are racist. What the article seems to point of is that there are lot more of them than I and others realise.

PS to Oldfart: I am watching my 81 year old mother becoming increasingly xenophobic. perhaps it comes with old age.

Sandra Searle (@SandraSearle)January 13, 2014 at 10:40 am

There are 2 things that should be happening at the moment.
One would be that complete transparency of all of the detention centers like Manus should be available for the general public to be able to see just how Asylum Seekers have to live & are being treated.
Graphic images would be good because they just might put paid to out of sight out of mind brigade that our stupid media should be absolutely all over as they do so love printing anything they think is sensational news.
The second thing is that to get a proper percentage of people to poll regarding Asylum Seekers is to organize Get Up, Avaaz, Change.org or any other sites that start asking the Australian public to put their names to properly asked questions. Perhaps these sites can band together to get the right questions asked, then can reach the many, many people who feel just as strongly as I do about the current situation being absolutely abhorrent regarding those people who are being treated like criminals, when all they want is to find a safe haven & a new life away from the horrors of war torn countries.
There really is an upside to all of this that I read just recently (sorry I don’t have a link for this) but there are many country areas who would be very willing to accept Asylum
Seekers to help keep their towns alive & viable.
This stupid ‘bloody-minded’ LNP government that thinks that they have the all the answers just don’t get it. All TA & his mob want to do is to re-instate all of the policies that John Howards’ government was voted out on. They don’t, nor do their advisors, have a collective progressive brain between the lot of them.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 10:45 am

“There does not seem to be an issue with mental health problems of people held in our jails…”

First. People in our jails are there because they have committed a crime. Asylum-seekers have done nothing of the sort.

Studies by Physicians for Human Rights has found that the effects of indefinite detention include depression and suicide; Post Traumatic Stress Disorder; and damage to the body’s immune, cardiovascular and central nervous systems.

If you are genuinely concerned about the mistreatment of asylum seekers, there’s plenty of information available on the net.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 10:51 am

Mars: Psychologically there should be no difference between why a person is held in detention and the effects produced by detention.
Cass

Magic negroJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:57 am

Don’t disagree with Michael Taylor’s point of view or your comments will be promptly deleted.

diannaartJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:59 am

Cass

How long should children be kept in detention?

Indefinite; till they reach adulthood?

10 years?

5 years?

How can you possibly claim there is no difference to being imprisoned for simply fleeing for one’s life and being imprisoned for committing a crime?

I’m not sure I even want a reply from you as I find your ability for empathy completely lacking.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:06 am

“How can you possibly claim there is no difference to being imprisoned for simply fleeing for one’s life and being imprisoned for committing a crime?”

There is a big difference. In prison, one knows why and how long they will be there. One knows what they come out to.

In detention, one does not know why, how long, or what happens in the future.

This is what leads to psychological problems.

Also, in prison, one does not have their family incarcerated with them

Ones family continue with normal life on the outside.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:08 am

Also, one has committed no crime. One has fled, fearing for their safety, and that of their family. Many have left family behind, who are also in danger.

One cannot compare the jailing of criminals with asylum seekers.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 11:08 am

It seems according to these photos taken in Aug 2013 that someone is lying
Cass
http://www.newsroom.immi.gov.au/channels/Detention/photos/construction-of-manus-island-regional-processing-centre-continues-3

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:15 am

Stephanie,

It’s kind of hilarious to be “lectured” by someone from the U.S. on respectability.

Indigenous genocide
Civil War
Mexico
KKK and virtual apartheid well into the 70s and arguably beyond
Vietnam & Korea
Iraq
Patriot Act
Numerous assassinations of political and social leaders
Guantanamo Bay
Roughly 30,000 gun deaths annually
Highest murder rate in the “civilised” world
Staggering homeless and poverty rates in proportion to overall wealth
No universal healthcare
Number 1 in incarcerated persons per capita
Oh, and btw, thanks for the GFC

I could go on, and on, and frankly, on… Not a sound basis from which to be talking at others about their cultural failings.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 11:23 am

Manus Island only houses Men. Our prison system allows for children to be housed with their mothers while incarcerated.
Immigration Detention and Community Statistics Summary
As at: 30 November 2013
There were 6101 people in immigration detention facilities and alternative places of detention, including 3916 in immigration detention on the mainland and 2185 in immigration detention on Christmas Island as at 30 November 2013.
Separately, 3330 people are living in the community after being approved for a residence determination and 22 773 are living in the community after grant of a Bridging Visa E.
Table 1 – People in Immigration Detention Facilities, Alternative Places of Detention (APOD), Offshore Processing Centres and the Community
Place of immigration detention Men Women Children Total
Christmas Island Immigration Detention Centre 1120
Curtin Immigration Detention Centre 736
Maribyrnong Immigration Detention Centre 80
Northern Immigration Detention Centre (Darwin) 164
Perth Immigration Detention Centre 36
Scherger Immigration Detention Centre 229
Villawood Immigration Detention Centre 337
Wickham Point Immigration Detention Centre 148
Yongah Hill Immigration Detention Centre 502
Change from Previous Summary
31/10/2013
1120 – 101
736 + 47
11 91 + 15
164 – 15
12 48 +3
229 -1
50 387 – 29
148 – 12
502 – 69
Total in Immigration Detention Centres 3352 73 3425 – 162
Perth Immigration Residential Housing 5
Port Augusta Immigration Residential Housing 9
Sydney Immigration Residential Housing 5
Adelaide Immigration Transit Accommodation 27
Brisbane Immigration Transit Accommodation 28
Melbourne Immigration Transit Accommodation 155
1 4 10 -1
8 3 20 – 12
10 21 36 -8
3 30 +1
20 15 63 +1
97 64 316 +2
Total in Immigration Residential Housing and Immigration Transit Accommodation
Alternative Places of Detention (Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Island)
229 139 107 475 -17
259
385 421
1065 – 43
Alternative Places of Detention (Mainland) 292 382 462 1136 – 78
Restricted on Board Vessels in Port
Total Facility and APOD 4132
Total Community under Residence Determination 881
979 990
670 1779
2133 1798
0
6101 – 300
3330 +40
22773 – 100
Total Community on Bridging Visa E (Including people in a re-grant process)
18842
Immigration Detention and Community Statistics Summary
Page 3 of 11
Change from
Offshore Processing Centres Men Women Children Total Previous Summary
Republic of Nauru 404
Manus Province, Papua New Guinea 1139
173 109
31/10/2013
686 + 95
1139 + 2
Total Offshore Processing Centres 1543 173 109 1825 + 97
Community Population by State/Territory
Of the 3330 people approved for a residence determination to live in the community, 42% are situated in Victoria, 19% in Queensland, 18% in New South Wales, 9% in South Australia, 9% in Western Australia, and 2% in Tasmania and the Australian Capital Territory.
Table 2: Community Detention Population by State/Territory
State/Territory Adult Child (<18 years) Total
Male
15
Female Male Female
ACT
9 26
117 211
137 220
59 112
9 47
282 519
57 110
6 56
95 599
110 632
58 296
4 72
221 1389
40 286
NSW 176
QLD 165
SA 67
TAS 12
VIC 367
WA 79
Total 881 670 1245 534 3330
Mothers and Children Program
The Mothers and Children Program aims to maintain parent-child relationships whilst the mother is incarcerated, especially where infants and young children are involved. In appropriate circumstances, where it is in the best interests of the child and consistent with prison management, provision may be made for a child of pre-school age to live with their mother in prison. The decision to allow a child to live with their mother in prison is based on an assessment process with each case determined on its merits.
Currently the Mothers and Children Program is available at both women’s prison facilities in Victoria, the Dame Phyllis Frost Centre (DPFC) in Deer Park and HM Prison Tarrengower Prison in Maldon. The majority of women incarcerated are held at the Dame Phyllis Frost Centre – this includes women sentenced to a term of incarceration and on remand. All mothers in these facilities are eligible to apply to care for their young children. The incarcerated mother who wishes to care for her child is required to make a written application to the manager of the facility in which she is held. If the application is approved by the Correctional Services Commissioner the mother then assumes full responsibility for the care and management of the child whilst incarcerated.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 11:24 am

cassilva48: we are talking about the “indefinite detention” of people who are seeking asylum from danger and persecution. It’s not like Sam Brown who is in jail for 3 years for a dealing drugs.

But I sense you are not really concerned about understanding the psychological implications, are you?

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 11:26 am

The cut and paste was not successful, so here is the website
http://www.immi.gov.au/About/Pages/about-immigration-detention.aspx

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 11:26 am

Mars08: Provide evidence of this ‘indefinite’ detention.
Cass

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:28 am

Cass,

Psychologically there should be no difference between why a person is held in detention and the effects produced by detention.

Are you bloody serious, Cass? For a start these people are indefinitely detained whilst having committed no crime. They are already suffering trauma when they arrive. Unlike most people in jail detainees have no “parole” date. If we treated criminals in our prisons, you know, the ones that have committed actual crimes, there’d be outrage.

Besides, your premise is wrong anyway: prisoners experience mental health problems disproportionately to the rest of the community and around a third of our prison population have mental health issues upon entry into the system. It’s a bad comparison to make.

Geez.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 11:30 am

Time in Detention
Of the 7875 people in immigration detention as at 31 January 2013 around 34% had been detained for three months or less and 90% had been detained for 12 months or less.
http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/detention/_pdf/immigration-detention-statistics-20130131.pdf

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:30 am

Cass,

Mars08: Provide evidence of this ‘indefinite’ detention.

Sigh.

Indefinite:

1. lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.
2. not clearly expressed or defined; vague.

diannaartJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:39 am

Nice try Dan & Mars08

But Cass is not interested – she is using this thread to reinforce her own prejudices.

BillyJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:39 am

That might be the staff quarters Cass, you know they need to have a higher living standed than the ‘illegals’ which are housed in tents.

BillyJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:43 am

oh my bad i thought Cass was a genuine bogan here for enlightenment, nevermind my post it’s a waste of time of a Lieberal Nazi Party staffer.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:44 am

“31 January 2013 around ”

Things have changed dramatically since then. Has one been asleep.

We now have a new fgovernemnt, and nearly no assessments or visas issued.

None are coming to Australia. The one here, when this government took over, apparently, are still in detention. Could be wrong, but if any have been released, the numbers are tiny.

These people are not charged with any crime. Do not appear before any court. Face no conviction. No one knows how long they will be kept in detention.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:45 am

“Most of our parents came here on the $20 program”

I do find it interesting that it seems that migrants are often the most vociferous in wanting to deny others that same opportunity for a better life.

My ancestors came here as convicts cass and they were treated a damn site better in the early 1800’s than we are treating innocent victims of oppression now. My ancestors had committed crimes like stealing a bolt of cloth or a loaf of bread. One was transported for “appearing armed” – (is that a gun in your pocket?)

Wives and children came out to join their “criminal” husbands who, after serving their time, often received land grants and went on to become successful farmers and businessmen. They had hope and opportunity, something that perhaps made their finite incarceration tolerable.

It seems that irrational fear and selfish greed now have made us incapable of showing the same decency we showed to these original criminal settlers. In over 200 years we have gone backwards rather than forwards in this regard and I am thoroughly ashamed.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:45 am

PS. Yes, it is true, up to then, and a little after, Labor was getting them out of detention as quickly as possible.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:49 am

One needs to look at the dates on those pictures. Also, the locations of where they were taken.

Nauru and Manus Island fell quickly into a unusable condition when closed down.

The termites did their job well. Also, having Nauru set alight, did not help.

MezJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:56 am

My sentiments completely, thank you Michael.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 11:56 am

Dan, with respect, but ‘indefinite detention’ is the criteria for a refugee entering the country illegally, it is used broadly as the maximum statistic, in actuality, this indefinite detention, equated to 34% detained for only 3 months or less, and with 90% detained for 12 months or less.

If these people are suffering trauma when they arrive, then they are in the same position as our prison population. And detention like incarceration one imagine’s would have the same result. Some detainees from Sri Lanka have chosen to return to their home so there is a more or less ‘parole’ system for them.

The problem as I see it, is that Diannart, Dan and Mars are looking at this from an emotional pov, I am looking at it from a rational pov. What are the motives and if they are so disallusioned with their own countries are they prepared to embrace ours? This does not appear to have happened in Europe and Britain. I posed the question on what the aforementioned would do to solve the refugee arrivals in Australia. I am waiting for a response.

Cass

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:00 am

Nooo. If you use obscenities and defamatory comments you will be deleted. If you persist with such language your comments will be placed in moderation. If it continues after that, you will be blocked from commenting altogether.

End of story.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:08 pm

Cass, please show us the evidence, that these people will be let out of detention in the near future.

Maybe you can tell us, where they will be let out to. What country.

You might even make a few cents, if you let the MSM into the secret.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:12 pm

It has been alleged that they have been told they are going nowhere, and it would be sensible for them to return home.

This is the reality, not an emotive response.

Can you explain to us, what this government intends to do with these people. Just idle curiosity, I know.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 12:12 pm

Not a rational pov, Cass. You are looking at it from YOU OWN narrow-minded pov!!! Your statements are plastered with coalition talking points. Oh… and once more for the dummies… they are NOT entering the country illegally!

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:12 pm

Cass,

Before I respond to any of that last post, let me ask this: do you believe Australia should accept any refugees at all (whether that be those seeking asylum or those arriving from UNHCR camps)?

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:12 pm

cass

Firstly, I would increase foreign aid and contributions to the Green Fund.

Condemn human rights abuses and be active in sanctions against it

Up the humanitarian intake – I would need more information to decide how far but at least to 30,000.

Set up processing centres in transit countries and speed up assessment times.

Improve support programs for refugee arrivals – psychologists, social workers, teachers, health care, adult trade training etc

Have more input from our community. As was written about in a previous story, many country towns would welcome new arrivals.

Welcome these people and let them know that they are safe now.

duggy47January 13, 2014 at 11:15 am

Fed up
I don’t think you’ve gone back far enough searching for here it all began. Sems to me it began with Richo’s ‘whatever it takes’ attitude to seizing and retaining political power

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:17 pm

mars08,

and once more for the dummies… they are NOT entering the country illegally!

Um, I’m sorry, but technically they are. Under Australian immigration law it is illegal to enter Australian territory without a relevant entry visa. The Refugee Convention doesn’t change that illegality. It does not make the illegal, legal. What is does it make the illegality – which it recognises may have to happen in many instances – irrelevant. It clearly specifies that no punitive action whatsoever will be applied to asylum seekers that have entered a nation’s territory illegally.

This is why the shills of the Coalition can get away with using the nomenclature of illegality in relation to the issue. It sucks, but there you have it.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 12:22 pm

Kaye Lee, With respect, but you are ‘romancing’ the conditions your ancestors were met with here.
Prisoners were housed below decks on the prison deck and were confined behind prison bars. They slept on hammocks and at times were allowed up on deck for exercise and fresh air.
Strict rules controlled the daily lives of convicts. Convicts living at Hyde Park Barracks had to obey the orders of the superintendent, convict constables and overseers. The ringing of the bell in the barracks yard told them when to get up in the morning, when to eat their meals and when to go to their hammocks each night. It also told them when to assemble in the courtyard for daily inspections before heading off to their worksites around the town.
Convicts were sent to Australia to work. This was their punishment. Convicts were expected to work from sunrise to sunset. In hot weather they had an hour off in the middle of the day. Male convicts generally did hard physical labour such as making bricks, constructing buildings, gardening, and building roads. Female convicts often worked as household servants, cooking, cleaning and sometimes taking care of children. Some of the convicts had special skills and did work such as keeping records, printing, making pottery and keeping the town clocks.
Food was scarce during the first few years of the colony. Crops did badly so people relied heavily on supplies shipped from England. Convicts employed by the government were given a weekly ration of 3kg beef, 3kg flour, 1.3kg maize meal and 0.9kg of sugar. They were also given tea. Fresh vegetables were uncommon but ‘greens’ like cabbage were sometimes added to their stew. The greens probably came from the large vegetable garden near the Hyde Park Barracks, where some of the convicts worked. Female convicts were given fewer rations, as their work was considered less physically demanding. Convicts who worked for free settlers were expected to be fed by their masters.
Punishments were common for bad behaviour like swearing, laziness, being drunk, returning late from work and stealing small items. For this, convicts were whipped with the ‘cat-o’-nine-tails’ or kept in solitary confinement for several days, with only bread and water to eat.
Convicts who ran away from their work were often sentenced to wear heavy leg-irons for at least six months and up to three years. These leg-irons could be put on or taken off only by a blacksmith. Some convicts were even ordered to walk on a big wooden treadmill to grind the corn used to make their breakfast.
If a convict’s crime was really serious, they might be sent to a distant penal settlement like Port Macquarie, Newcastle, Norfolk Island or Port Arthur.
A well-behaved convict might be given a ‘ticket of leave’ that allowed them to work for money and own land but not to leave the colony. They could even receive a pardon. A ‘conditional pardon’ allowed them to live anywhere in the colony and an ‘absolute pardon’ allowed them to travel abroad, even back to England if they chose. Once a sentence had been served, a convict received a ‘certificate of freedom’.
Children were allowed to remain with their mothers at the Factory until they reached the age of four years at which time they were sent to Orphan Schools thereafter all contact with their children was lost until their release and often times longer depending on their circumstances.
Prison reformers back in Britain wanted to experiment with new forms of punishment. The centrepiece of the new institution was the Model Prison.
The idea was to replace flogging and corporal punishment with complete sensory deprivation, which would break their spirit and turn them into good citizens. The guards wore slippers and carpets in the hallways deadened all sounds. When the convicts were allowed out of their cells, they were made to wear masks to they couldn’t recognise one another. There was very little verbal communication.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 12:25 pm

FedUp: I don’t know how the Abbott Government will handle this, but under labour past detention rates were between 3-12 months. Hardly indefinite!!!!
Cass

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:26 pm

Thanks for your copy and paste their cass. I could show you the letters written by the actual people, my family. I could show you the records of passage, and what they themselves wrote of their lives. I could show you the deeds and land grants and the family history that has been painstakingly compiled by the successive generations with documents and photographs.

But by all means, you go right ahead and tell me how they felt.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:32 pm

Cass, you have lost it completely. No one is romancing how their ancestors came.

They are just making the point, that refugees and those fleeing injustice and poverty, coming to this country is anything new.

We are, or should be well aware of the hardships our ancestors faced, to help make this country great.

The point many are making, what is happening this day, is not on. Needs to stop. No need for them to be terrorized or put at further risk.

Luke WeylandJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:32 pm

Alas, what do you expect after a constant 18 years of xenophobic propaganda from the racist attacks by Liberals, Gnats and Labor and attacks from the commercial radio commentators and News Extremely Limited?

mars08January 13, 2014 at 12:32 pm

Dan Rowden… you are right. I didn’t explain myself properly. My point is that the asylum seekers cannot be punished for the act of arriving in Australia without official documentation. While it’s nice to get the correct wording for the sake of clarity, it’s rather pointless if clowns like Cass refuse to listen.

danielJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:34 pm

Human greed is another reason why we are facing this situation. That is one of the main factors why there will never be a utopia and why communism failed. tell me in this day and age can you really trust someone on face value alone ?

“People in our jails are there because they have committed a crime. Asylum-seekers have done nothing of the sort.” how do you know?

“Asylum seekers” is the new word to get thrown around in the media before that it was “terrorist/terrorism”.
“Asylum seekers”, who get instructed to rip up their identification. Just because they’re on a boat coming from a war torn tribal country you deem them to be “Asylum seekers” isn’t that being racist. i feel sorry for the real refugees getting caught in the middle of this. the greed of the people smugglers. the greed of the economic asylum seekers that arrive via boat under the pretense of refugees. the greed of the criminals claiming incognito and trying to enter as a refugee.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:34 pm

cass,

you ignore the fact that my ancestors had committed what were considered crimes. asylum seekers have committed no crime.

you ignore the fact that, because what they were coming from was worse, my ancestors found hope and opportunity here that they would never have had at home.

you ignore the fact that they knew how long they would be incarcerated.

do you think if we treat asylum seekers slightly better in 2014 than we did criminals in 1808 that we are doing well?

where is your humanity? These are people.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:38 pm

Cass, yes the last government did process them. This government is not.

Please show me what Morrison intends to do with them.

From where I am sitting, all he has done so far, is making their conditions unbearable, hoping they will return home.

There does not seem to be any other plans in the pipeline.

He has said, none are coming to this country. He has said, those already here back to 2001 will not be getting permanent visas, or allow to unite with their families.

That adds up to a very uncertain future to me.

It seems you know better, so point us in the direction of where we can find the information you claim to have.

Labor is not in power. No good using data that is now over twelve months old.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 12:38 pm

Mars08: No Visa, means illegal.
Dan: Yes I do believe that we should accept refugees,especially those from UN camps, as it is clear that they and their families are truly fleeing persecution. Clearly, an economic refugee would not be taking this path. Yes, all people are entitled to a better life or standard of living, but when there are such critical numbers in camps, who have no means of funding their own passage then they should be put to the top of the list, and the economic refugee placed at the bottom of the list. I struggle with the idea that an economic refugee has no problem in leaving his wife and children behind and at the same time claims that he was being persecuted? If this was the case, I would imagine that his wife and children would be put at greater risk of persecution because of his actions?
Cass

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:42 pm

Daniel,

You seem to be su….ah, no, screw it, I can’t be flippin’ bothered …

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:43 pm

Not many fleeing for their lives have the luxury of applying for visas. That is what seeking asylum means.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:44 pm

Daniel do you believe we should like people up because we don’t know that they haven’t committed a crime?????

What would you like us to call people who come seeking asylum????

You do realise that they then go through a process to determine whether or not they are to be granted refugee status?

And regarding the “destroying their papers” stuff….read this and get the other side of the story.

http://refugeeactioncoalitionsydney.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/factsheet-re-no-id-papers.pdf

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:46 pm

*lock (not like)

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 12:52 pm

Kaye Lee. After my cut and paste are you still insisting that these early criminals were treat better than we are treating refugees today? As you say, this punishment was, in some cases, for petty misdeamours, and regardless they were not handed free passes until they had served a considerable amount of their incarceration period, viz (yes, another C&P) Governor Brisbane (1821-1825) finally set down regulations for eligibility. Convicts normally sentenced to seven year terms could qualify for a Ticket of Leave after four years, while those serving 14 years could expect to serve between six to eight years. ‘Lifers’ could qualify for their ‘Ticket’ after about 10 or 12 years. Those who failed to qualify for a pardon were entitled to a Certificate of Freedom on the completion of their term.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:52 pm

They leave family behind, as it is too dangerous for all to come at once. Yes, some of that family goes on to be killed. The one that flees, hopes to reach safety, and get his family out.

One story in the media this week. The father was killed, the son that fled was in imminent danger, Since leaving his mother and aunt have been killed. He has two young brothers who are now on their own. This boy is only 22 now. Now he is on Manus Island, he is desperate. He fears for the lives of his young brothers. This is reality.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 12:54 pm

Fed UP: How the hell am I supposed to know what the Abbott Government will do, I didn’t vote for the imbeciles. But under Labor I think these refugees were treated fairly and equitably.

I can assure you that a Canadian,American or Brit would wait a helluva lot longer than 3 months to get a permanent residency!

Cass

randalstellaJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:59 pm

Cass is yet another to show that Orwell did not recognise the half about repressive language.
Refugees turn up on shores across the world, having escaped repression and possible death. Cass wants to know their ‘motivation’ – perhaps like a Method actor might. She doesn’t know? How serious is she about this problem?
“Disillusioned”: I guess that is a word for the realistic sense of one’s impending murder. .
How many of the Sri Lankan ‘parolees’ have survived? If it were anything like parole, our officials should at least know this. What protection do these ‘parolees’ receive? None; as she must know. This is as much protection as those expelled back to countries where they have simply disappeared.
Why should they “embrace” our nation? What does that mean?; They could hardly embrace the refugee policy. Is that the Catch-22 test? As a longterm resident and citizen, born here and working here for many years, I don’t “embrace” it. Why should they? As long as they are prepared to live peacefully here. I would like to think that they could live here more peacefully than Mr. Abbott, child migrant.
Where is the evidence that these people are any threat to Australia – which Cass insinuates as if her “rational pov”. Are we that insecure? We get the merest drops of refugees compared to Europe. They are people without any power. I am afraid that – as an Australian – I see a common cultural trait: enmity and contempt for the powerless.
This country will be predominantly Chinese – in numbers and cultures – a few generations from now. It will be a bemusing reflection for these Australians then, this White Aussie resurgence now. Maybe there’ll be a national day of apology; should anything like progressive Government survive.
Cass insists all those who deplore the current treatment of asylum-seekers must take the burden of a solution for this worldwide problem. Is that a concession that the ‘rationality’ she supports is hopelessly incoherent morally and practically?
Thanks for being polite anyway Cass.

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:03 pm

"cassilva48" is immature and hasn't grown up.

Still wants things to be like the 50s.

Readers can decide if its the 1850s or 1950s.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 1:03 pm

Kaye Lee wrote
Isn’t the Green Fund about Climate Change?

Condemn human rights abuses and be active in sanctions against it
I agree

Up the humanitarian intake – I would need more information to decide how far but at least to 30,000.
I agree

Set up processing centres in transit countries and speed up assessment times.
Cass: Unworkable and costly and probably subject to corruption.

Fly approved refugees here. Those without approval can buy passage on planes with the knowledge that they will be detained in humane facilities onshore whilst their application is processed in a set time frame.
Cass: How are you going to get around paying corrupt officials for false paperwork. This is just putting a new nose on an old face (from people smugglers to corrupt officials)

Improve support programs for refugee arrivals – psychologists, social workers, teachers, health care, adult trade training etc
Cass: They already get this, and even more so when they are detained in housing outside of the detention centres.

Have more input from our community. As was written about in a previous story, many country towns would welcome new arrivals.
Cass: I would bet a pound to a penny that many would refuse this offer on the grounds of isolation from their own communities.

Welcome these people and let them know that they are safe now.
Cass: Nice sentiment, but I struggle with the idea that they were being persecuted in the first place.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 1:07 pm

Kaye Lee: They have paid people smugglers knowing that it is illegal to enter Australia this way. So at the very least, they are guilty of fraud and corruption.
Cass

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:08 pm

cass,

many of them were starving to death in Ireland. Others were servants. others stayed alive by being petty thieves. They came here and ended up free men with substantial land holdings, thriving families and successful businesses.

I note you have not answered my suggestions on how we should deal with refugees but have concentrated on telling me to ignore what my own family have written about their experiences whilst I listen to something you have copied from somewhere. You are presumptuous in the extreme and are so obviously set in your own mindset that any further discussion with you is pointless, in my pov.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 1:08 pm

Fed UP: You only have their word that they were fleeing from persecution.
Cass

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:14 pm

Cass,

You only have their word that they were fleeing from persecution.

That’s what a lot of people said about Jews in the 30s. That didn’t turn out so well.

Philip BatemanJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:22 pm

This is a troll article right? Am I the only one who read ‘The poll, based on a nationally representative sample of 1000 online interviews…’ yada yada yada… as the source for the statement? Could your time be better spent offering intelligent summation of the situation not wrapped in hate-mongering or at least a dissection of the fact that the Herald Sun uses ‘600 out of 1,000 online submissions’ as fuel for ‘a strong majority of Australians’ ? Our country suffers from a lack of quality journalism. Maybe those amongst us creating content could prioritise that rather than creating division.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 1:23 pm

Kaye Lee: I was not judging these people. My own family fled Ireland because of the Potato Famine. What I am saying is that the Brit jails were full and as America had thrown out the Brits, Australia became a solution for the English prison system. That they survived those first 10 years is remarkable, considering the conditions they had to endure, which are incomparable to Manus or any other detention centre, and considering that their crimes, in many cases, were misdemeanours even more remarkable. But to say that they were treat humanely is proposterous.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:24 pm

Sorry had missed this. In answer,

“Isn’t the Green Fund about Climate Change?”

Yes it is. Climate change is going to contribute to a tsunami of refugees. Surely it makes sense to address that?

“Unworkable and costly and probably subject to corruption. How are you going to get around paying corrupt officials for false paperwork”

Staff them with Australian public servants or at least oversight by Australian immigration officials. And it is far cheaper than detaining people offshore.

“They already get this”

Oh no they don’t. That sort of assistance has been systematically removed from our offshore detention camps.

“I would bet a pound to a penny that many would refuse this offer on the grounds of isolation from their own communities.”

Why must this lead to isolation? Why can’t whole communities grow who have the cultural support of others from their own country and the welcoming support of locals to help them integrate?

“Nice sentiment, but I struggle with the idea that they were being persecuted in the first place.”

Seriously???? You haven’t looked far cass.

cassilva48January 13, 2014 at 1:24 pm

Dan, what is unforgivable, is that we did know what was happening to the Jews and did very little about it.
Cass

mars08January 13, 2014 at 1:25 pm

Dan Rowden says: “You seem to be su….ah, no, screw it, I can’t be flippin’ bothered …”

Yes indeed. With some fools, there’s no point even trying.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:26 pm

And I didn’t say they treated convicts humanely….I said they had hope and opportunity.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 1:29 pm

“…at the very least, they are guilty of fraud and corruption…”

Really Cass? Oh bugger me!!! Then charge them, put them on trial. Get an impartial jury to decide their fate. Maybe throw them in jail for a few years. Should be an open and shut case, right? Right!

Jack TarrJanuary 13, 2014 at 12:31 pm

@G’Day TPPA. Indeed and the next ‘secret’ step may be delivery when our Oz politicians go the way of Brazil:

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/12/brazil-gm-terminator-seed-technology-farmers

Jack Tarr

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:33 pm

Cass, read this very carefully. This is 2014. We now have a Coalition government. Abbott is our PM.

What Labor did, or what happened in 1788, has nothing to do with what the asylum seekers are facing today.

We are not talking about January 2013. That is now history.

We are talking about what is going to happen now, 2014 and in the future.

Mr. Abbott or Mr. Morrison is the only ones that can answer that.

The question is, when can those people in detention expect to be released.

The second question is, where will they be released to.

Third, can they expect more than a bridging visa.

At least Labor put a time line on when they would be entitled to a permanent visa. They would receive a visa, in line with the no advantage test, of those left behind in the region. Yes, those who did not get on the boats.

After those in Indonesia and Malaysia were dealt with,. Could possibly be five years or more.

This government has said never.

This is my last comment, in this theme.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:36 pm

I seem to recall the Australian Government via the wheat board giving kickbacks to Saddam Hussein. Off with their heads!

allenmcmahonJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:47 pm

Google ‘ indefinite detention australia’ 50+ people that are in indefinite because thinks that they might be a risk to our country. We are the only oecd country that does this and have been found to be in breach of our international human rights obligations.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:54 pm

Is this real enough for Cass.

……The cloak of a military campaign has been adopted to inflate the importance of the asylum seeker issue and to justify the Abbott Government’s cult of secrecy, writes Mungo MacCallum.

Operation Sovereign Borders is in real danger of spinning out of control.

Not only are Generalissimo Tony Abbott and his First Sea Lord Scott Morrison now firmly ensconced in Fantasy Land (the happiest kingdom of them all), but their fantasies are becoming a serious risk to Australia’s reputation and even its wellbeing.

It is no longer just a matter of boys playing battleships in the bathtub, as Senator Sarah Hanson-Young indulgently describes it; a series of statements from various participants last week make it clear that reality is starting to overtake the rhetoric.

Abbott opened the bidding by justifying his paranoid secrecy over the whole issue with the remark: “If we were at war, we would not be giving out information that is of use to the enemy.” We were engaged in a “fierce contest” with the people smugglers; we had to stop the boats because it was a matter of our national sovereignty. In other words, we actually were at war.

Now hang on a moment. A war is an armed conflict between nation states about the conquest of territory or at least a dominant economic advantage. A few score people smugglers pose no conceivable threat to Australia and Abbott knows it. When he talks of “national sovereignty”, all he really means is his own pride; he has puffed up the concept to try and lock the rest of us behind his political posturing. To compare the current situation with war is to insult and belittle those who fight and suffer in real wars, the very soldiers Abbott affects to idolise at every photo opportunity he can arrange.

The cloak of a military campaign against the hapless asylum seekers has been adopted as political camouflage, partly to inflate the importance of what is, by any normal measure, no more than an irritant, and partly to justify the cult of secrecy (“we do not comment on operational matters”) that Abbott and Morrison have invoked to cover their own mismanagement. And it appears that there is a fair amount to cover.

Despite Abbott having fervently and repeatedly denied after the election that he had a policy to “tow back” boats to Indonesia, it now appears that in two cases that is precisely what has happened; and in two others, perhaps three, boats were “pushed” back before being effectively abandoned in Indonesian waters. In international law, this is a distinction without a difference – both procedures are illegal.

Abbott’s policy, that boats would be “turned back when it is safe to do so”, was always dubious, and depended on Indonesian co-operation. This was never going to be forthcoming and again last week both the foreign minister, Marty Natalegawa, and the office of president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono reiterated that the policy was unacceptable. Any hope that it might be tacitly approved, as suggested by reports that the Indonesian military chief General Moeldoko had given a nod and a wink to his Australian counterpart General David Hurley, were firmly repudiated.

And now the United Nations High Commission on Refugees is demanding an explanation of the incidents from Canberra, and also of reports that Australia had bought large lifeboats from Singapore, which will be used to facilitate further turn-arounds from unseaworthy Indonesian vessels. This totally unprecedented idea has been widely ridiculed in the Australian media, but it is another indication of Abbott’s obsessive single-mindedness: stop the boats at many cost, and we do mean any.

But the stakes are getting higher. The head of the Indonesian parliament’s foreign affairs committee, Mahfudz Siddiq, has said that the lifeboat ploy means that he Australian government plans to become a people smuggler itself, despatching boat loads of unauthorised immigrants into another country’s territorial waters. And, as the Australian Navy has been used to repel boats from Indonesia, so the Indonesian navy may have to repel the boats from Australia. The situation could escalate quickly and very dangerously. Suddenly Kevin Rudd’s pre-election warnings of a possible military confrontation between to the two countries look a lot less fanciful.

The air needs to be cleared, urgently, and a full and frank public statement by Abbott would appear to be the only way to do it. Both the Indonesian government and people and the Australian people need to be told just what the policy is, what if any are its limits, and how it works on a day-by-day basis. As it is, trust and support are being dissipated in a cloud of rumour and scuttlebutt. And, as Bill Shorten and numerous others have pointed out, it is ludicrous that Australians are getting more information from the Jakarta Post than from their own government. Even if this was a real war, the situation would be unacceptable….

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-13/maccallum-operation-sovereign-borders/5196708

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 1:55 pm

We’re the only country that holds illegal immigrants or people in indefinite detention … never heard of Guantanamo Bay? Extraordinary rendition? That’s just the U.S – forget China and Russia.

Why the blatant disregard for facts. This article is just an epic strawman – can’t I oppose illegal immigration on the basis that it’s bad for the security of our nation? Can’t I have legitimate reason to disagree – apparently not because my ability to see beyond the myopic goal of building an identity through social justice issues.makes me a piece of shit.

Illegal immigration around the world is what is known as a “wicked problem” – reducing a complex issue like this down to a couple of catchphrases and emotionally appealing slogans about the state of these people is disingenuous at best.

Möbius EckoJanuary 13, 2014 at 2:09 pm

anaryl what that hell does Guantanamo and extraordinary rendition have to do with asylum seekers? Talk about drawing a long bow.

Illegal immigration is a problem and there are hundreds if not thousands who fly in every year.

If you mean boat people, they are not illegal and they do not pose a security problem.

diannaartJanuary 13, 2014 at 2:14 pm

Cass

I can assure you that a Canadian,American or Brit would wait a helluva lot longer than 3 months to get a permanent residency!

Brits & Canadians do not have to flee their countries in fear for their health and safety ….

Cass, do you believe the government should deter more refugees by imposing stricter conditions?

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 2:19 pm

@"anaryl"

Of course you can … "can’t I oppose illegal immigration on the basis that it’s bad for the security of our nation? "

When you find those "illegal immigrants" please let everyone know.

In the meantime refugees coming by boat seeking asylum are not illegal according to International Law that Australia is a signatory too.

randalstellaJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:12 pm

The Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Sri Lanka in November raised serious current concerns about human rights there; specifically the continuing reprisals by the Government against defeated Tamils. Even the Conservative UK PM raised this, quite pointedly. Anaryl did not notice any of this; yet claims interest in this topic of refugees.
Who is advocating no screening of asylum seekers? Of course they have to be checked. But the current detention and treatment far exceeds what is necessary; and is something else. It is meant as a means to deter further boat people – whatever their plight. As Abbott said yesterday, he wants them to go home. No mention or suggestion of how this might mean certain death. .
Both alternative Governments have become enmeshed in procedures which pass off as border control what are attempts to appease (and in the LCP case, stir up) redneck reaction to foreigners arriving on shore. To this indulged mentality, it makes no difference if these arrivals are genuine refugees or not. Even if they had footage proving the slaughter of their family and their bare escape, the reaction from this mentality would be the same. Hence, anaryl does not have any interest in the controversy about Sri Lanka hosting CHOGM, 2 moths ago.
“Indonesia is not known for being a conflict zone” is one of the most ignorant comments I have read; even from refugee bashers.
“Asylum is not a real thing”.. Yes it most definitely is. The delusion and deception in argument is clear; and does not come from advocates of human rights, and proper screening of arrivals.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:15 pm

The asylum seekers might be doing the right thing under the law. What is also true, the crews of the boats are acting illegally under Indonesian and Australian law.

Why were they not arrested and bough before our courts?

mars08January 13, 2014 at 3:16 pm

anaryl: “…can’t I oppose illegal immigration on the basis that it’s bad for the security of our nation?”

anaryl: “…reducing a complex issue like this down to a couple of catchphrases and emotionally appealing slogans about the state of these people is disingenuous at best.”

Yes! Yes, you’re right. Slogans are for suckers!!!! STOP THE BOATS! WE MUST PROTECT THE SECURITY OF THE NATION!

billy moirJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:32 pm

There is great sadness because the good works that windsor, oakeschott, gillard and Labor did was(still is?) hidden under a mob of cloaks: rupert’s power over his journalists integrity(and didn’t the editorial zealots exceed his expectations!!!); the amoral rabbott’s propaganda slogan tactics backed by rumour, exaggerations and.unconscionable lies; the media men’s thirst for ratings through manufactured controversy, disingenuous spin and deliberate omissions; the lemon’s ego blended by his supporters’ fitzgibbonish foolishness and red-neck ‘BBQ-style’ rage at debt, asylum seekers and women, unanswered by labor yet continually fueled by jonesian misogyny.
The independents’ hope for a new inclusive approach to the federal parliament was embraced by Gillard and her Labor colleagues but ruined by a man’s ambition that would over-ride convention, respect and common decency. With hope’s last vestige, dashed by the ABC, the demise of o’brien allowing the ‘advent’ of uhlmann and by the introduction of 24/am show whose auto-cue reading journalists found their main source of questions in the rabbott’s economic negativity which was constantly repeated throughout every ABC TV and radio outlet with the worst answers picked up, edited to highlight the negative and then trumpeted on commercial, news, current affairs and.morning shows. When the lemon never challenged hockey’s attacks on swan/gillard during their matey gigs on sunrise, He gave at least tacit support to the rabbott. This ‘labor, coalition debate(joke) aired every Friday just before the polls, QED
In the midst of all this, a revelation hit the greens’ integrity in the guts when they dared to dream that the 10% who support the loony left could grow to 50% and they could be a major party. Their act to approve the rabbott having access to unlimited borrowings suggests milne still clings to that hope.
Is the rabbott amoral and therefore not to blame for inciting violence to gain publicity? Not to blame for lying to escape difficult situations? Not guilty of avoiding primary sources, in case his faith is tested? Not guilty of political persecutions? Not guilty of promulgating his faith’s role for women?
Is it reasonable to fear that practices that sound good in the politics of England or America can be transposed to Australia by this ignorant faith based, spur of the moment decision maker? Ignorant because he blurted out he doesn;t read primary sources but relies on second hand summaries and quotes which he doesn’t check if it agrees with his beliefs. Ignorant because he neither read nor listens to anything that may challenge his faith or political beliefs. His spur of the moment approach is typified by ‘shit happens’, ‘suppository’, ‘abortions, safe, legal and rare’, ‘a bad boss/father/husband…tend to do more good than harm’.’…folly to expect women…dominate or..approach equality..for physiological reasons'(how do you feel, girl,that your three days a month is the physiological reason for the rabbott’s rejection (fear) of women?) There are so many of them, it is difficult to understand why Labor didn’t return fire???

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 2:36 pm

@Mobious: It was in response to this comment:
“Google ‘ indefinite detention australia’ 50+ people that are in indefinite because thinks that they might be a risk to our country. We are the only oecd country that does this and have been found to be in breach of our international human rights obligations.”

So yes, it was a valid rebuttal to a stupid absolute with no basis in fact.

“Illegal immigration is a problem and there are hundreds if not thousands who fly in every year.

If you mean boat people, they are not illegal and they do not pose a security problem.”

Courtiers Reply. Simply stating the opposite or contrary to something does not make it so. How are they not illegal immigrants – do they have visas when they get on these boats? No, ergo illegal.

Don’t pose a security problem? You have no understanding of the current global security situation. If you think illegal immigrants pose no security risk, you just don’t understand the evolving nature of conflict in the 21st century. I highly recommend reading the Sling and the Stone by Col. Thomas Hammes.

“Of course you can … “can’t I oppose illegal immigration on the basis that it’s bad for the security of our nation? ”

When you find those “illegal immigrants” please let everyone know.

In the meantime refugees coming by boat seeking asylum are not illegal according to International Law that Australia is a signatory too.”

The fact that you claim to know that all these ‘boat people’ are asylum seekers means you know nothing. The fool thinks he knows everything, the wise man knows he knows nothing.

Asylum is not a real thing, as Julian Assange found out. Now why are you so sure these are refugees? Most of them are coming from Sri Lanka and Indonesia – the Sri Lankan Civil War ended 7 years ago, and Indonesia is not reknown for being a conflict zone. So how do you know they aren’t economic migrants? I mean apart from your absolute faith in the worthiness of your cause.

Just because you live on the left doesn’t mean you can’t be a zealot.

diannaartJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:38 pm

Billy

There is so much Labor could seize and offer better solutions to… where is Shorten? C’mon Albo no need to walk on eggshells, mate.

@ Cass

No answer to my question?

allenmcmahonJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:40 pm

@ fedup

The crews on asylum seeker are prosecuted under Australian law and spend time in our goals before being deported back to Indonesia. The irony is that they are better treated in our goals that asylum seekers are in our concentration camps.

The crews are also victims as they are generally people who have ended up in financial trouble and in order to pay their debts have little option other than getting involved in illegal shark fishing and/or people smuggling.

Chris SkaseJanuary 13, 2014 at 3:58 pm

This is terrible journalism… Perhaps spend some time presenting alternatives or trying to change peoples perceptions. Instead you place a digital swinging sword out your balcony from behind a laptop. Hardly solves anything nor helps the plight of those suffering in Australia let alone the world…

Swing and a miss by another extreme left journalist that can only function under protest

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:20 pm

@"anaryl"

"The fool thinks he knows everything, the wise man knows he knows nothing."

Why are you still commenting ?

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:23 pm

@"Chris Skase"

I always love it when The AIMN gets a "Comment" from beyond the grave.

Put your name up and stand by any comment you think might be worthwhile reading.

Your last one was a puff piece not even worthy of Alan Jones.

John FraserJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:26 pm

@Filthy the Bear

Those that you speak of would probably head to Antarctica in the forlorn hope that they would raise the IQ of that place.

Just have a read of the lost brigade here.

I doubt that they would even seek asylum … more likely be quislings like Bolt.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:36 pm

@John Because I feel like commenting?

“I always love it when The AIMN gets a “Comment” from beyond the grave.

Put your name up and stand by any comment you think might be worthwhile reading.

Your last one was a puff piece not even worthy of Alan Jones.”

Right because your real name is John Fraser and you’re gonna put your doxx up because you’d fight us!

Also how is Bolt a quisling? Do you even know what the word means?

You’re what I like to describe as a low information troll.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:40 pm

I bet locking people in brutal detention for an unlimited period of time, will not foster love of the west in these people.

Cannot think of a better way to create the terrorist in the future.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 4:41 pm

randalstella says: “…Of course they have to be checked. But the current detention and treatment far exceeds what is necessary; and is something else…”

True. It is something else… Now even those who have been OFFICIALLY deemed to be refugees (and their families) are being punished by our government. What’s to be gained by that?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/08/refugees-family-reunion-hopes-dashed

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:54 pm

When I was a child, just after the war, my mother purchased a large home, that she turned into small flats.

There were four families she took in. One was a family of six, living on a relations narrow verandah. Mum knew this family, and against her better judgement took them in. Post war accommodation was impossible to find. One took what one could get

Another was a Australina sailor had his wife. The third was a large refugee family, that had survived the camps and terror of Europe.

The first thing this family did was to have a new baby, as faith in the future. Beautiful people, they were.

The older daughter, about 15 was beautiful, in spite of her whole body, that was covered by her clothes was a mass of scars, that she will carry to her dying day.

The fourth, I cannot remember, but plays no part in this yarn.

The refugee family revered my mother, and could not do enough for her.

This was appreciated by my mother, as we were living in Sydney because of the need to attend medical appointments. My father was a wheat and sheep Cockey, that remained in the bush.

Now the sailor and his wife, hated refugees with as much hate, as many do today. These people offended by just existing. They, at no time did anything to attract the hate they got.

It got so bad, that the situation was intolerable. To get even, this poor example of a man, set off a smoke bom

Yes, refugees are real people.

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:57 pm

Yes, all actions have consequences. Something that Abbott and Co do not seem to understand.

I suspect they will quickly find out, to their distress.

Filthy the BearJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:10 pm

It seems pretty simple to me, as someone who wants his nation to be a heroic force for good in the world. Look at it like this. If we hadn’t gotten our asses saved by our allies in WW2, we’d be the ones trying to seek asylum. Say your grandparents tried to flee the Japanese occupation. They’d obviously want to go to a place where the standard of living, education and healthcare is as high if not higher than what they were used to. Say they made their way to the U.S. and we’re turned around and told to f off. Would you be okay with that? Would you then go to Indonesia where you can’t work or educate your kids if you are a refugee and starve thinking, “well, you can’t blame America. Who did we think we were asking for help and caring what happened to our families? God we were stupid.” I somehow doubt it. I only hope these idiots find themselves in need of help one of these days and get told to get f’ed.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 5:12 pm

@Fed up: What’s the point of your story? You trying to imply that refugees are somehow better people than Australians? The plural of anecdote is not data.

>>>”Yes, all actions have consequences. Something that Abbott and Co do not seem to understand.

>>>I suspect they will quickly find out, to their distress.”

Why do you automatically presume you know better? and again with this selective amnesia regarding the ALP’s actions for the past two terms? You want to point the finger, point it at Labor. I don’t know why you think you can separate 6 years of Labor immigration policy and 6 months of Liberal immigration policy and say “It’s Abbott’s fault”. I mean you *can* say it, but nobody should take you seriously if you do.

What also gets me is that you think you know better than the sharpest minds in government. You think Tony or Morrison who ever writes this policy? No, it’s developed in think tanks by wonks and boffins and then sexed up by staffers. These are all effective organisations with much more information, resources and intelligence available than you. You’re just a single person. So how on Earth do you think you could see the situation more clearly than them? It’s magical thinking.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:18 pm

@randallstella: ” Hence, anaryl does not have any interest in the controversy about Sri Lanka hosting CHOGM, 2 moths ago.”

Nice try. So you would prefer, I’m gathering from your post, that instead of using diplomatic pressure to stop human rights abuses in Sri Lanka, like we did then, no, that they should just all come by boat! That’s your solution?

>>> “Yes! Yes, you’re right. Slogans are for suckers!!!! STOP THE BOATS! WE MUST PROTECT THE SECURITY OF THE NATION!>>>”

Strawman much? Because the left is just so much better when it comes to slogans. And aren’t we all just so conveniently forgetting that Gillard proposed far more draconian solutions. Where’s the opprobrium for her? Selective amnesia? Or are you just going to cop to being nakedly partisan ?

>>”“Indonesia is not known for being a conflict zone” is one of the most ignorant comments I have read; even from refugee bashers.”

Courtiers reply. I’m not a refugee basher, asshole, I just don’t spout uninformed opinions. The fact that you must insult anyone who thinks you’re a crazy leftist radical shows that you aren’t worth my time. Your post is full of assumptions about me, and frankly I just don’t talk to mediocre people. Bye, asshole.

Oh and Indonesia a conflict zone? Get off the crack. Don’t even dare compare Aceh to the Sri Lankan Civil War. You clearly have no idea, and just cherry pick bull to support

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19749931 : – Asylum is not a universal law. People may seek refugee status – that doesn’t mean they are automatically granted asylum or that specific nations even recognise the concept. Of course there are countries that do – but your absolute zealotry doesn’t permit for any other interpretation than these are boats full of the saintliest people just wanting to come here and be happy.

Surely you considered the notion that unrestricted immigration would have on our already overcrowded under infrastructered cities. The Eastern Seaboard, given our delicate ecology, is actually overpopulated. Without regional infrastructure and job growth, these people are going to cram into more overcrowded cities – again increasing population pressures.

And again, I am sure you made the carefully weighted decision that if one of these people become radicalised or were already, and they blew up a cafe or pub, killing twenty people – would that in your mind still be worth it? How many Australian lives are worth those of one asylum seeker? Who would bear that responsibility. And don’t say it doesn’t happen, of course it happens.

What about Australian Navy personnel who put their lives at risk rescusng these people from the Ocean – are these asylum seekers worth even one of their lives?

Or what about if the fact that it gets easier to get into Australia causes more people to attempt to arrive by boat – and if one of those boats sank? You’ve incentivised a dangerous crossing by promising citizenship or residency at the end of it. That’s practically inviting them. Who is responsible then?

You don’t seem to understand that actions have consequences and that those consequences might cause more people to die. The goal of our asylum seeker policy should be to help as many people as possible whilst still upholding our duty to protect the Australian state. If you incentivise crossing the Indian Ocean, people will die and you will be responsible.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 4:33 pm

>>”It seems pretty simple to me, as someone who wants his nation to be a heroic force for good in the world. Look at it like this. If we hadn’t gotten our asses saved by our allies in WW2, we’d be the ones trying to seek asylum. Say your grandparents tried to flee the Japanese occupation. They’d obviously want to go to a place where the standard of living, education and healthcare is as high if not higher than what they were used to. Say they made their way to the U.S. and we’re turned around and told to f off. Would you be okay with that? Would you then go to Indonesia where you can’t work or educate your kids if you are a refugee and starve thinking, “well, you can’t blame America. Who did we think we were asking for help and caring what happened to our families? God we were stupid.” I somehow doubt it. I only hope these idiots find themselves in need of help one of these days and get told to get f’ed.”

1. It’s a myth that our “asses were saved” in WW2. There were never any serious plans by the Japanese to invade Australia – there were some prelims drawn up, but it was never a serious objective of the Japanese High Command. Whilst the Americans did save Port Moresby in the Battle of the Coral see, seeing the Allied war effort has “saving our ass” is inaccurate. Liberating South East Asia was the stated goal of the Allies and Australia contributed to that effort.
2. That’s pretty much what happens when you go to the U.S now illegally. Furthermore that line about the U.S is utter crap, how do you know what would’ve happened? – you’re trying to make a point off a counterfactual. Not happening.

randalstellaJanuary 13, 2014 at 5:54 pm

anaryl,
Cheerio, old bean. I am very confident that you would be quite mild-mannered in my presence.
“Indonesia is not known to be a conflict zone”. is as ignorant as it gets. The Indonesian military have one of the worst records for murder and human rights abuses in human history. Can you at least remember East Timor? Or is that another refugee scam?

Abuse is not argument. The abuse reaches its worst where you offer it as a counter on Indonesia. Is the intensity of your tantrum supposed magically to make the brute facts go away?

The claimed ‘diplomatic pressure’ by Abbott stands alone as token and dismissive of human rights – among nations which receive many times the arrivals.
Your speculation about the possible threat of refugees manages to avoid the fact that no one here is against proper processing of arrivals nor against the minimisation of dangers to all involved. It is patent hypocrisy for you to claim that you have such human rights concerns – given your hate-filled ravings. It is first a loathing for facts it seems – given the facts you dispute are so obvious, and you are so readily provoked by them.
We are protecting this country for the likes of you? I have met some refugees. Given what they have gone through, and are going through, their respect and dignity is a contrast which somehow comes to mind right now.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 5:54 pm

anal says: “What about Australian Navy personnel who put their lives at risk rescusng these people from the Ocean – are these asylum seekers worth even one of their lives?”

I guess the Navy personnel are doing what they’re trained for. Maybe we can ask them how they feel about “rescusng these people from the Ocean”. I suppose there would be quite a few different replies.

As for wondering if asylum seekers are worth even one of their lives… The exchange rate varies over time and depending on who you ask. One source tells me that two years ago, it was 7,297 of “these people” for one of ours. I assume the rate now must be well over twelve thousand to one. Does that sound about right to you?

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 5:26 pm

Actually anaryl, Jim Molan was described as the “architect” of Tony’s asylum seeker policy and his credentials to do so aren’t that great. He has also been notable for his absence in his role as “Special Envoy”

Fed upJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:39 pm

In general. I am not saying refugees are better or worse than us.

They are just people, who have had to flee for their lives.

When one thinks of it, in my yarn, yes in that case, the refugee family were indeed better people, then the sailor and his wife.

I suspect that one could say, refugees are more likely to be better people than the racist, that makes their life hell.

The truth is, until you raised it, I have not given any thought to who is a better person than not.

It is more about justice and a person’s right to be safe, than who is better or not.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 5:44 pm

@Kaye Lee: Permit me to disagree but I think the article you quoted kind of vindicates him, and as well making the author look like a complete dhead I mean look:

“Could it be because they have chosen as “Special Envoy” a man who enjoys wars, a man who thinks we need more guns and submarines, a man who thinks all Afghanis and Indonesians are corrupt ? No wonder we are in trouble.”

The author clearly has built this faulty syllogism to sloander the man. Why does he enjoy wars beca seu ”

“Finally, in a paragraph about the mismanagement of the war and corruption in Kabul, Molan blames NATO, a “poor constitution,” and “Hamid Karzai’s natural Afghan ways . . . ” What is he suggesting here? That Afghans are naturally corrupt and untrustworthy, hence our failure to ‘win’ the war? There is no other interpretation of these extraordinary and unfortunate remarks.”

It’s bullshit convoluted assumption.

“He was the chief of operations of the allied forces in Iraq with responsibility for the operations in Fallujah. Faith in military solutions convinced Molan that George Bush’s troop surge in Iraq delivered “victory” to the Western occupiers, a reasonable judgement if victory is defined as the destruction of the country and the immiseration of its population. If you claim to have run the war in Iraq, it may be necessary to believe this nonsense. By almost any measure, the war in Iraq has been one of the greatest military catastrophes of modern history.”

Again the author has no clue what he is talking about.

“Is it just me, or is he showing an unhealthy enthusiasm to have gunboats to play with again? Most people who deal with asylum seekers are traumatised by the encounter rather than “happy as a pig in shit”.”

Gunboats? This isn’t the sixties.Again assigning ulterior motive and presumption of bad faith.
On submarines: How that made Holden feel? Oh the leftie standing up for the multinational? Strange. The author has no idea of the trend of our defence spending over the Labor years (trending down would be an understandment). The fact is peace is achieved through arms and capability parity. Given that our conventional defence policy calls for naval action in the event of a neighbour building up it’s naval/projection capacity. How is that supposed to be achieved if a) the military is underfunded and doesn’t have enough money to even carry out required procurement and b) busy towing boats back to Indonesia?

This article that you have linked is no better than a teenage facebook smear. Absolutely no research on our current defence capacity, faulty syllogisms and accusations of bad faith – this stuff is awful. If I were you Kaye, I’d stop reading this crap. The Economist provides much better commentary, and Lowy Institute can give you policy analysis. This site is freshman art student bull.

Dan RowdenJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:44 pm

What about Australian Navy personnel who put their lives at risk rescusng these people from the Ocean – are these asylum seekers worth even one of their lives?

I don’t know how to begin to express my dismay at this sort of inhuman attitude. It seems impossible that a human being not afflicted with some sort of mental defect or personality disorder could articulate such blatant inhumanity.

I don’t ordinarily resort to rhetoric that suggests a person is sick in the head for their views, but this is simply sick in the head.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:51 pm

I wonder if anaryl feels the same about all the people who are saved by search and rescue teams.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:56 pm

@randal >>>” given your hate-filled ravings. It is first a loathing for facts it seems – given the facts you dispute are so obvious, and you are so readily provoked by them.”

I cannot hate my inferiors. It’s not an emotion I readily experience. You may be mistaking my contempt for you as hatred. I don’t like you putting words into my mouth, because you spew shit. You won’rt get another response from me. You can attack me all you want – but you’re the one who is spewing divisive hate speech against Australians – You will generate this type of response from anyone if you automatically attack them as “refugee bashers’ because they don’t agree with you. It’s a disgusting appeal to emotion.

@mars: >>>”As for wondering if asylum seekers are worth even one of their lives… The exchange rate varies over time and depending on who you ask. One source tells me that two years ago, it was 7,297 of “these people” for one of ours. I assume the rate now must be well over twelve thousand to one. Does that sound about right to you?”

It’s a rhetorical question intended to highlight moral pitfalls in the situation, what is wrong with you that you took it for an actual question – most children develop rhetorical speech at age 12.

How about I distill it down for you: Is it okay to kill one asylum seeker to save another?

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 7:02 pm

“I cannot hate my inferiors”.

Now THAT made me laugh out loud.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 6:27 pm

anaryl, the author of the article I linked to is a she. In fact it was me, so I know how much research went into it. I would be interested to see where you get your information from. Perhaps you could provide links to back up what you say, as I did in the article I wrote.

And speaking of “teenage facebook smears”, is calling me a “dhead” and a “fwit” who engages in “sloander” and “bullshit” and who has no clue the intellectual well-researched grown-up way?

(Thinks to self, anaryl likes playing with gunboats too)

NatashaJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:00 pm

No boat arrival for last 4 weeks. Who knows how many life’s have been saved at sea by this tough policy. More significantly, we don’t want to end up like European countries where the millions of the new underclass are forever alienated to the hosting society, resulting poverty, riots and social fragmentation.

I can see why voters voted for this government in last election. If Labor doesn’t heel to Bob Carr’ parting advice and support the Coalition’s border protection policy, they have no chance to get back in.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:25 pm

Would it be dismissive of me to point out it’s monsoon season?

allenmcmahonJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:39 pm

@Natahsa

We know that at least one boat was intercepted near Darwin towed to a remote island left with insufficient fuel and ran aground. This could so easily led to a loss of life.

Be honest this is not about saving lives, more people would die in their country of origin than on the boats that’s why people take the risks they do. But if they die elsewhere and we don’t know about it we can pretend it never happened. Having arrived in Christmas Island we treat them babariclly and this is intentional we are trying to force them to go back. If they are not at risk in their home countries and economic refugees why is the return rate is only 1.5%.

Italy had a day of mourning when a boat sank and more than 300 people died our navy arrived to late to save a boat then turned back leaving bodies in the water.

How would you like to be in Nauru in a tent with a four week old child in 50 degree temperatures then queue for four or five hours each day for meals or a shower. This is what we do to people who come seeking our help. If you think this is acceptable you have my sympathy.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 8:40 pm

Leaving aside that Australian Navy personnel putting their lives at risk suddenly become dead asylum seekers…

How cute that you throw in a false dilemma…

Of course it’s not okay to kill one asylum seeker to save another. But clearly it’s okay to humiliate, degrade, mistreat and damage them to score a few votes. Now it’s my turn…. what about the fate of those who were persuaded to go back “home”? Is that something we should be concerned about?

doctorrob54January 13, 2014 at 8:47 pm

I am totally sickened by this Fed bunch of c#@ts,and any maggot that supports them.Stick patriotism up their arse and any socialist take over I would support.And I don’t give a f#%k who hates me for it.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:04 pm

I have already given my list of what I would prefer to see done earlier in this thread when cass asked the same question.

And btw, I don’t get paid for what I write. Do you? Perhaps you could be specific about what you disagree with and a tad more constructive with that criticism. It appears me you enjoy trying to belittle people but have no substance to what you say.

I am not trying to divide the country. I am ashamed of our approach and happy to make suggestions.

Firstly, I would increase foreign aid and contributions to the Green Fund.

Condemn human rights abuses and be active in sanctions against it

Up the humanitarian intake – I would need more information to decide how far but at least to 30,000.

Set up processing centres in transit countries and speed up assessment times.

Improve support programs for refugee arrivals – psychologists, social workers, teachers, health care, adult trade training etc

Have more input from our community. As was written about in a previous story, many country towns would welcome new arrivals.

Welcome these people and let them know that they are safe now.

I would prefer it if you could discuss your point of view without name-calling – not because it in any way affects me but because it makes me feel like I am wasting my time answering you.

danielJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:13 pm

do you have a secret money tree growing out your backyard?

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:20 pm

Onshore processing is far cheaper than maintaining offshore detention camps.

Flying people in is far cheaper than using our navy to patrol for fishing boats.

Assisting people to become productive contributing members of our society is far cheaper than keeping them locked up or giving them sub-poverty welfare.

Give up Tony’s rolled-gold paid parental leave for millionaires and his bribes to polluters and hey presto, we can afford to increase foreign aid and a lot of other things.

Michael TaylorJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:23 pm

“No boat arrivals for last 4 weeks. Who knows how many lives have been saved at sea . . . ”

The would-be asylum seekers have probably been murdered by their own governments. That’s a sure way to stop the boats.

allenmcmahonJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:29 pm

@mars08

Returns fall into two categories ‘forced’ returns which applied to some 1,200 Sri Lankan’s who were taken off boats, isolated on Christmas Island, given no access to lawyers and returned by plane within 48 hours.
Most ended up in prison, were tortured and only allowed freed when ransomed by their families. The return rate was over 90% under Labor and who knows under ‘Morrison the Mute’. On Immigration’s own figures 50% of Sri Lankan’s who applied for asylum were genuine refugees but once a deal was done with Rajapaksa they are sent back without oversight.

Voluntary returns are a joke, the single men’s camp on Nauru has 100 men, only 4 toilets, and to only open area is 10×10 meters with no shade, there are no tables, chairs just stretcher beds in the tents. Most of the men have stomach complaints and often foul themselves before they can get to a toilet, queue for up to two hours to have a four minute shower in saline water, so they have skin diseases and fungus, same queues for food and unless its an emergency a doctors appointment takes three weeks all documented by the UNHCR on a recent visit. Not surprisingly the UNHCR found our offshore detention centers were well below the minimum standard. So yes we are responsible for what happens to people who ‘ voluntarily’ go home.

NatashaJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:34 pm

@Michael Taylor

” the would-be asylum seekers have probably been murdered by their own governments. That’s a sure way to stop the boat.”

Wrong and hyperbole.

Most asylum seekers are economic refugees seeking a better life, some of them are escaping their religious sectarian infighting, ie, Sunni vs Shia . Why do we want to import these infighting into our society?

The genuine refugees are living in refugee camps. Their places in Australia have been taken by these illegal boat people in the last a few years due to Labor’s disastrous border failure.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:41 pm

“And btw, I don’t get paid for what I write. Do you? Perhaps you could be specific about what you disagree with and a tad more constructive with that criticism. It appears me you enjoy trying to belittle people but have no substance to what you say.”

I feel I raise valid criticisms, but I won’t suffer fool or insult gladly – it’s not trolling if you started it. In regards to your piece – I had no idea it was yours so the evocation of my disgust was … unfiltered. Don’t call me names or make assumptions about me and I won’t about you, deal? Good, let’s continue.

I do sympathise with plight of these people but the nicer the conditions we grant them, the more we incentivise them to attempt the crossing. It would be perverse to dangle refuge in Australia on the basis of crossing the Ocean in a boat, possibly requiring rescue.

There are two real themes we follow with asylum seeker/boat people policy – deterrence, or admittance. I’ve already demonstrated why admittance is perverse – so deterrence is the only pragmatic, humane option.

The article states that there is no possible reason why somebody could disagree with it’s assessment apart from being a inhumane racist bastard. The fact that there aren’t any many other tenable options, and previous ALP ones were clearly worse means that holding to the current strategy can be an entirely rational perspective.

So as you can probably guess, I believe deterrence is the best strategy to pursue – including controlling media releases about how ill treated they are, and the towing back of boats – all will serve to deter many others not to attempt the crossing depriving people smuggles of growing income and ultimately save more lives.

The problem: People are queasy about the realities of deterrence It’s natural to be, which is why these policies cause so much outrage. The alternative outcome however is far worse.

This is just a moral stance on the abstract – there is much more to say but I’ll start here. I’ll post some ‘light’ reading for you in a moment.

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:42 pm

I suggest anyone that thinks what we are doing to these asylum seekers to access The Guardian. com. They have just released a letter of concern from 15 doctors on Christmas Island. No boats in 4 weeks? Think about the people we have locked away in our concentration camps. Read the article and be disgusted and ashamed of what is being done in our names. A result of piss&moan tones & truechriistian morris’s desire to move the refugees off the island as soon as. this is a revolting policy

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 8:42 pm

Kaye Lee: “anaryl, the author of the article I linked to is a she. In fact it was me, so I know how much research went into it. I would be interested to see where you get your information from. Perhaps you could provide links to back up what you say, as I did in the article I wrote.

And speaking of “teenage facebook smears”, is calling me a “d*head” and a “f*wit” who engages in “slander” and “bullshit” and who has no clue the intellectual well-researched grown-up way?

(Thinks to self, anaryl likes playing with gunboats too)”

Then you should be utterly ashamed of yourself. If that’s what passes for publishable in your mind, then my sources will be way above your paygrade.

I’m more than willing to give it a shot, but that article is *the* worst thing I have read in a very long time. I won’t lie it made me mad. Every statement was turned into a convoluted attack – surely you registered at some point that this was all just a tad tenuous.

Propose solutions, stop dividing the country along partisan lines. It’s easy to attack someone without offering real solutions.

Show me what you’ve got, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:45 pm

Natasha,

9-Sep-06 11 Unknown, Afghans, two females aged 6 and 9, and nine males. All eleven victims murdered in their homes in Afghanistan by locals calling them ‘spies’, after being deported as a group from Australia.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 9:49 pm

Natasha: “…some of them are escaping their religious sectarian infighting, ie, Sunni vs Shia . Why do we want to import these infighting into our society?”

Do you even read what you type? Are you this clueless in real life or just when you get online?

So there frightened people are “escaping” sectarian fighting… BUT… WAIT FOR IT…. somehow they are bringing the infighting with them to ruin OUR society. BRILLIANT!

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:54 pm

The majority of people living in refugee camps would prefer to go home if someone would stop the genocide or war or oppression that they are fleeing Natasha. Don’t get your information from Andrew Bolt and Larry Pickering because what you are saying is ignorant.

You seem to imply that people cannot seek refuge here…that they must go to some other country and wait in a non-existent queue. Why should this “other” country take all the responsibility?

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:06 pm

“I believe deterrence is the best strategy to pursue ”

And just how do you propose to deal with the growing refugee tsunami anaryl? Do you think if they make it to Indonesia that it should just be Indonesia’s problem? Pakistan has 2.6 million refugees there…should we tell them suck it up, we won’t help? Because they got there from Afghanistan or wherever they are fleeing that it’s just Pakistan’s problem and tough break them for not being an island? Do you think Australia has any responsibility as a global citizen?

Deter them to where? And then do what?

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:19 pm

Yeah doctorrob54, go hard or go home

Matters not.January 13, 2014 at 10:20 pm

… but I won’t suffer fool …

Clearly, full of self-hatred. Just sayin …

I just wonder which rock he resides under.

doctorrob54January 13, 2014 at 10:24 pm

Well said Greg,you beat me to it.Natasha,good indigenous name isn’t it.Murdered by own Gov.what an idiot,more likely murdered by fanatics as a warning to people wishing to leave or other family member spied or worked for coalition of the killing.
And daniel you are a true dickhead,do you really think it is cheaper to set up concentration camps on islands,staff them and use the Navy to hunt refugees down,FFS mate get back under your rock.
And as for anyone else out there in BS land don’t blame Michael for dividing this paranoid,racist nation,Howard started it many years ago and the filthy Abbott continues it on.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 10:25 pm

Kaye Lee… do you really think you will get a straight answer? I just wonder how heartless we have to become before we deter ALL the asylum seekers.

BTW… if memory serves, the GDP per capita of Indonesia somewhere between 15% and 20% of ours.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:28 pm

For those of you worried about the money, here are a few suggestions

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:33 pm

doc and Greg, go hard with facts. Go hard with suggestions. Lay off abuse.

allenmcmahonJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:37 pm

@.Natasha

You keep using the term illegal. What Australian law are people seeking asylum breaking and why are they not being prosecuted for it.

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:41 pm

Well, Natasha no doubt the more erudite will have a more considered response, but I think your comment is absolute bullshit, really read theguardian.com re doctors on Christmas Island regarding their concerns and then tell me who is as fault

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 9:53 pm

Anaryl, just wondering, do you feel better about yourself, more superior, more right when you adopt your condescending attitude? In my opinion you are criticizing from a position of ignorance. Strangely enough I’ll use my name, who are you?

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:54 pm

I read the summary from the attached report in that article from the Guardian that you linked to Greg. Thanks for directing me there. The information MUST be shared. It is outrageous that we are refusing to listen to these doctors about the dreadful situation in our off-shore detention centres. Instead we are sacking them, along with the Salvation Army.

I recognise the contribution that you and doc make and appreciate what I learn from you. I just feel that if we ask others not to abuse us, then we shouldn’t abuse them. And it’s not my article so I cannot edit your comments, nor would I want to. I understand and share your passion.

mars08January 13, 2014 at 11:20 pm

Although I’m new here, I’ve been into political blogs for over a decade. In the beginning it was the US sites, but now I stay domestic.

Anyway… at this point I am with Greg and doc. This country has been veering to the dark side for far too long. And the pace has been accelerating. First under Howard, then less rapidly under Rudd, now warp-speed under Abbott.

We try and try and try to reason with those who question our values, but I have NEVER seen anyone from the other side even consider changing their viewpoint. That’s both online and face-to-face. The hopeless MSM doesn’t help matters.

I don’t give a steaming shit if those tossers want to abuse me. They have nothing to offer. Their opinions are useless to me. Their judgement is worthless. Anything those knuck-draggers throw at me is harmless… unlike the venom they are spreading though this nation.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:27 pm

@mars>>>”Of course it’s not okay to kill one asylum seeker to save another. But clearly it’s okay to humiliate, degrade, mistreat and damage them to score a few votes. Now it’s my turn…. what about the fate of those who were persuaded to go back “home”? Is that something we should be concerned abou”

I am of no doubt, once we pick them up, they are our responsibility and they should be treated humanely – but how large is that capacity right now? Not very from the sounds of things – it’s obvious that conditions should be sustainable, but also not pleasant.
So how long can this trend continue upwards? Even if these people aren’t economic migrants now – if gaining residency in this way becomes normalised, there will be in the future, as well as security threats.

The situation in that case becomes harder to control.

@Kaye>>>”“I believe deterrence is the best strategy to pursue ”

>>>>>And just how do you propose to deal with the growing refugee tsunami anaryl? Do you think if they make it to Indonesia that it should just be Indonesia’s problem? Pakistan has 2.6 million refugees there…should we tell them suck it up, we won’t help? Because they got there from Afghanistan or wherever they are fleeing that it’s just Pakistan’s problem and tough break them for not being an island? Do you think Australia has any responsibility as a global citizen?

>>>>Deter them to where? And then do what?”

Growing refugee tsunami? What evidence do you have that all these people are going to come here. Boat people numbers in the scheme of things are comparatively small. Pakistan’s refugees are suffering from a mostly transient displacement due to natural disaster, Afghanistan … is in flux right now. It is difficult to foresee what outcomes may arise after U.S withdrawal. You may argue that it may possibly cause a mass exodus if things go poorly, and that’s not an unreasonable position; but you should not present as a fact.

Secondly we provide and continue to provide aid as citizens through private donations, and as a nation through aid and in some cases military support. We also took in refugees from those countries. Sri Lanka is a different case but we should be pushing from a diplomatic solution, as well as pressuring them on human rights and political freedoms through the Commonwealth, and the U.N. However, since all these nations are our partners, we have to preserve relations with these people – so there is only so much we can do, and only so many people we can save.

Australia for the most part is a responsible global citizen. However as a middle power, we only have limited means – and we must preserve that for things like, actual tsunamis. There are quite a few different ideas about what direction the ADF needs to take

http://m.lowyinstitute.org/files/pubfiles/Heinrichs%2C_Little_power%2C_big_choices_web.pdf is I believe the current trajewctory of the ADF strategic thinking

Whereas this is an excellent rebuttal http://m.lowyinstitute.org/files/pubfiles/Angevine%2C_Dangerous_luxuries_web.pdf

which reveals the limitations of of our current procurement. This is important because having more or less equipment, or material that actually works buys us time in terms of managing refugee capacity until a regional agreement can be made, and we can begin to address these problems at the source.

Don’t you agree the best solution is these people not having to flee their homes in the first place?

Australia should be a responsible global citizen, and I think we are, for the most part. However we as a nation should be able to dictate how we distribute our help. If you think the idea of towing the boats back is is strictly an Australian problem … why is the EU doing it as well ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24440908

For the most part, the EU seems to be going further and actually prosecuting and imprisoning these guys and that’s not a bad option. Except that some southern European countries have esentially lost their ability to manage their own borders

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:28 pm

Love your style doctorrob, no time for pussyfooting around now. We all got to go hard or go home

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:34 pm

whatshisface>>>Anaryl, just wondering, do you feel better about yourself, more superior, more right when you adopt your condescending attitude? In my opinion you are criticizing from a position of ignorance. Strangely enough I’ll use my name, who are you?

Anaryl is my name. That’s why it’s there. It is one of my names – the implication that I’m hiding behind it, or that I am condescending is all just attacks on me personally. You don’t know me or how my mind works, perhaps you might be more sympathetic if you knew me, but you don’t and I don’t really care.

I found I was much nicer and thoughtful commenter after I read this some years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:35 pm

“What evidence do you have that all these people are going to come here.”

You remind me of the guy who told me if they drowned in Indonesian waters then who cares.

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:37 pm

Greg this song is for you

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:38 pm

“We try and try and try to reason with those who question our values, but I have NEVER seen anyone from the other side even consider changing their viewpoint. That’s both online and face-to-face. The hopeless MSM doesn’t help matters.”

I am always willing to change my beliefs if I am confronted with incontrovertible evidence – and often consider as much of the picture as possible. I think you’re projecting yourself on to me here, champ.

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:39 pm

@Kaye >> ““What evidence do you have that all these people are going to come here.”

You remind me of the guy who told me if they drowned in Indonesian waters then who cares.”

…Is that it?

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 10:40 pm

Well I did suggest reading the guardian article, re doctors on Christmas Island. Not a good enough suggestion? I think I feel happier responding as I see fit for the occasion, if you don’t like it delete me from the replies. OK?

anarylJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:46 pm

what shisface>>>”Yo Anaryl this is whatshisface, feeling better about you self yet? Determined to stay ignorant?”

I don’t understand.Why would someone ‘determine to stay ignorant’? – ignorant people don’t know they are ignorant, they just shun those who don’t share their beliefs and refuse to admit to the possibility of being wrong. You don’t choose to become ignorant – you just assume to ultimate validity of your beliefs above all others. When the standard of those beliefs aren’t very enlightened, we call that ignorance. Others sometimes describe ignorance as a blissful obliviousness to the world around them. If that were the case why would I be here sharing my beliefs with someone who obviously expresses hate for my kind?

Kaye LeeJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:51 pm

Greg, the song is called “You Don’t Speak For Me” by Judy Small. Listen to it when you can.

anaryl I am tired. You gave a lot of links that I will try to read in the morning in between catching up on the work I am neglecting. I am not at my sparkling best at midnight.

I thought it was obviousJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:00 am

why would I be here sharing my beliefs with someone who obviously expresses hate for my kind?

Because you’re a self-promoted, smug, supercilious w@nk€#?

anarylJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:04 am

Kaye – no problem. I too will consider the things you have said.

The point I’ve been trying to drive out is that this issue doesn’t have to divide the country into fringe leftists and ‘racist unsympathetic pieces of shit” or what ever it was. However, until the left stops playing this crazy obstructionist Republican style antiObama campaign versus Abbott and refusing to compromise, or admit their own parties failures then we are going to have to live with the reality of migrant boats sinking in the Ocean trying to reach Australia.

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:18 pm

Thanks Kaye, 3 Deutsche beers and I tend to forget myself. Will make all attempts to keep comments less hardcore. Appreciate your comments, something that is quite obvious from the Abbott fans their comments frequently descend into personal vitriol. Certainly been trying to bait some government fans, vent a little frustration. Go hard or go home, cheers

anarylJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:19 am

It was original? Why at are you some kind of old guy who thinks people ‘watch too many movies these days, why back in my day we got drunk beat our wives and went through oil price shock of the 90s…” Greg There’s no need to try these bully tactics on me. So I hope you find something else to do perhaps – maybe go back to commenting on youtube videos?

John FraserJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:25 am

Interesting that these so called conservatives are still mining information.

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:33 pm

Yes, unlike the venom they are spreading through the nation. And, we have three children, two grand children. Now I am ashamed to be Australian and very very p’d off. It really is going beyond reasoned discussion, no minds will be changed, hate seems to be the order of the day. I don’t want it don’t want to live like this. Phoney tony you don’t speak in my name

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:39 pm

Yo Anaryl this is whatshisface, feeling better about you self yet? Determined to stay ignorant?

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:41 pm

Kaye. Link won’t play on de iPad

anarylJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:46 am

greg link me your story and i will read it, in the morning.

anarylJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:52 am

Depends on how much the bear think of themselves, as a bear.

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:55 pm

Yo Anaryl, whatshisface back again. That explains it then? Your determination to denigrate all who don’t agree with you so you can have that superior feeling? Kaye Lee had a good Larf over one of your superior cooments, me too. But perhaps it’s above my pay grade to know more? Hang on, I’ve heard that line in a movie, do you have any original thought or is it only parroted?

Greg RapmundJanuary 13, 2014 at 11:57 pm

No doubt mr Google will assist, cheers

Greg RapmundJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:05 am

Beautifully said, I thought it was obvious, I was tryin to be a gentleman, hahaha, but it has been obvious all along.

Greg RapmundJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:11 am

Read the guardian story, Anaryl, what the doctors on Christmas Island have to say. A consequence of the current government’s policies. Your big on reading, aren’t you? Give the article a try, Anaryl, might help with your willful ignorance

Greg RapmundJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:14 am

Hahahahahohohohohohsnortz is that the best you can do? More lines from a movie? Come on Anaryl extend yourself, something original.

Greg RapmundJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:50 am

Anaryl you sounding like its time for your meds and actually sweety I’m a bisexual bilingual bi pedal transvestite in a loving relationship with a great brown bear. The question is, Ana, if a great brown bear shits in the woods and there is no one there to smell it, does it still stink?

Greg RapmundJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:54 am

Not my story and surely you’ve heard of Google? It’s that inter web thing, you know, need a computer give it a go might surprise yourself

Greg RapmundJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:57 am

I notice your grammar is deteriorating a, meds just kick in? As answers go that was pretty poor, D- must be a movie line you can use?

randalstellaJanuary 14, 2014 at 4:58 am

There is but one lesson to be taken from the visits by raving lunatics. It is that we cannot assume even sanity, let alone logic and any willingness to learn. These organisms do not think that way, if “think” is an apt word. What I note in particular is the spewed hatred for the most basic of facts. We all know that there is no arguing with these abusers; but we do it anyway. But it is a reminder that not even the most basic facts can be assumed as accepted or conceded by such creatures. Not even Abbott is as bad as those he encourages. But then he has to seem to behave himself. It may be the problem he has with continuity in his speech; as if he’s not saying what he’d like to say.
It does show how issues are trivialised and discussion of them undermined by the personalising most adamant as abuse.
It is a poser where these existences gained their self-defining hatred for any hint of reason and fairness. Now, there’s a rigorous research project. I see abject concession by this present idiot, right where it abuses the most. The assumption of abiding fairness as the natural condition of mind is under siege.
Just the same, I think the mad man(?) has had more than it deserves here. I respect the restraint shown by those targeted; but it does rapidly become a waste of time. And I do not like to see people like Kaye Lee attacked like this; anymore than I liked the attack on Dan and others by the one taking his name from a Seinfeld character. The idiot is never going to admit to losing every fight he picks. We could have been discussing this issue, rather than flicking off this toxic blowfly..

waterrootsJanuary 14, 2014 at 7:35 am

Very sad indeed! I do wonder sometimes where and how those polls are done. I know the same Australia you speak of and not the one that took this poll.

randalstellaJanuary 14, 2014 at 8:41 am

anaryl
Excuse you? No.
You’ve served your purpose, showing how Abbott’s asylum ‘policy’ was formulated for a low mentality, to get them to obediently vote accordingly..
Why don’t you now get lost? You must be a glutton for the hammerings you have taken here. You have shown yourself merely to be a malign fool.

cassilva48January 14, 2014 at 10:26 am

Fed Up wrote: Mr. Abbott or Mr. Morrison is the only ones that can answer that.

Then why are you asking me for an answer.
Cass

cassilva48January 14, 2014 at 10:34 am

Fed UP: You will get no arguments from me on your synopsis of what has occured since Abbott took the reigns. He is a meglomaniac, he is running the government like the Popes run the Vatican, viz I’ll tell you only what I think you should know, the rest is Vatican business!

My issues have not been centered around how refugees get here but what their motive for coming here is.
Cass

cassilva48January 14, 2014 at 10:48 am

Diannart wrote Brits & Canadians do not have to flee their countries in fear for their health and safety ….

Cass, do you believe the government should deter more refugees by imposing stricter conditions?

The Brits and Canadians are coming for economic reasons and for the sun. They do not impose their value system on others. Also they must prove that they will not be an economic drain on our welfare systems. Refugees from Irak, Afghanistan and Africa, come from war torn zones which have been hating and killing each other since the division between Sunni and Shia began. I see, today, in Africa, that a Christian group have murdered an innocent Muslim, and their leader ate his flesh. This was in retaliation to a muslim attack on a christian family (according to the leader of the Christians, his own family), that killed his mother, wife and sliced his baby in half.!

If we let these nutters in here what do you think will be the result? The problem, imo, is not economics or politics, its religion.

And no I don’t think the government should impose stricter conditions. The refugees sitting in squalor in Indonesia are as much worthy, if not more worthy, of entry as those that by-pass the restrictions.
Cass

Kaye LeeJanuary 14, 2014 at 10:51 am

cass, some are fleeing direct threats of physical violence, some are political refugees, but also many are leaving behind sites of trauma and despair that have become too painful. Often when a conflict ends the flow of refugees increases, as happened after the wars in Vietnam and Bosnia-Herzegovina, after conflicts across Africa and South America, and even after the First and Second World Wars.

John FraserJanuary 14, 2014 at 11:34 am

"If we let these nutters in here what do you think will be the result?"

Too late …. Murdoch presents this to the Australian public on a daily basis …. and "Cassilva48" laps it up.

diannaartJanuary 14, 2014 at 11:48 am

Cass

If we let these nutters in here what do you think will be the result?

Are you claiming ALL boat people are nutters, Cass? How very Christian of you… wait. apologies, Christianity has a long history of violent behaviour, I guess I am expecting far more of you than you can handle.

What what that biblical saying about motes in eyes? Before you continue defending a policy of denigration on people fleeing for their lives perhaps consider yourself first… reminds me of something a bronze age preacher taught – about casting the first stone and innocence.

——————————————————————————————–

Kaye Lee – you go girl. To all – I will not be contributing much thenext few days – the nature of my chronic illness is that my body’s temperature regulation is impaired.

Michael Taylor – is the length of this thread a new record for AIMN?

To all, I found a few words of wisdom I wish to share:

Six Guidelines for Life

Consume mindfully.
Eat with awareness and gratitude.
Pause before buying and see if breathing is enough.
Pay attention to the effects of media you consume.

Pause. Breathe. Listen.
When you feel compelled to speak in a meeting or conversation, pause.
Breathe before entering your home, place of work, or school.
Listen to the people you encounter. They all have a story to tell.

Practice gratitude.
Notice what you have
Be equally grateful for opportunities and challenges.
Share joy, not negativity.

Cultivate compassion and loving kindness.
Notice where help is needed and be quick to help
Consider others’ perspectives deeply.
Work for peace at many levels.

Discover wisdom
Cultivate “don’t know” mind (= curiosity).
Be open to what arises in every moment.

Accept constant change.

This is from a Buddhist teaching – I have removed Buddhist references – wisdom is wisdom and not subject to religion or race.

Kaye LeeJanuary 14, 2014 at 11:59 am

dianna,

Thank you for sharing that quote. I also have found a lot of wisdom in Buddhist philosophy. I believe that one small act of kindness can reverberate around the world like ripples in a pond.

Take care, and stay cool.

Kaye LeeJanuary 14, 2014 at 12:20 pm

anaryl,

I skimmed the first two links and read the third.

Discussions about upping our military capability seem to me irrelevant to this thread however I have a few comments on that. In Australia we are ranked number 13 in the world for annual military expenditure spending over $26 billion last year. Globally, over $1.75 trillion was spent, (USA 39% and China 9.5%). I understand the need for defence forces but I am truly dismayed by the amount of money spent and wish society had evolved sufficiently to make this unnecessary.

As for the third article you linked to, I disagree with your reading of what it says.

“If you think the idea of towing the boats back is is strictly an Australian problem … why is the EU doing it as well ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24440908

For the most part, the EU seems to be going further and actually prosecuting and imprisoning these guys and that’s not a bad option.”

There is no mention of towing back boats in this article. It talks about search and rescue vessels intercepting boats for the purpose of “rescuing” asylum seekers in an attempt to save lives. And we already DO prosecute people smugglers.

http://www.ag.gov.au/CrimeAndCorruption/Peoplesmuggling/Pages/Peoplesmugglinglegislation.aspx

cassilva48January 14, 2014 at 1:01 pm

This info came from Al Jazeera.
Cass

cassilva48January 14, 2014 at 1:15 pm

Diannart, as far as I am concerned all religions are at the root of all evil. The main perpetrators being Judaism, Christianity and Islam. No I don’t expect that all refugees arriving by boats are all nutters, but they are all religious and with this comes their loyalties and their hatreds. If they could leave this hatred behind there would be no problem, but recent events in Australia and globally suggest that this is not the case. The Shia’s now in power in Irak are revenging the killing of the Shia’s under Hussein’s regime. If they cannot find peace in their own countries how will they find peace here or anywhere else for that matter. Sunni’s and Shia’s consider each other heretics and therefore have justified the killing of each other.
Cass

Dan RowdenJanuary 14, 2014 at 1:27 pm

allenmcmahon,

@.Natasha

You keep using the term illegal. What Australian law are people seeking asylum breaking and why are they not being prosecuted for it.

Here we go again. It’s important that we get this stuff right, otherwise we look ignorant, or worse, mendacious. The law they are breaking is immigration law. It is illegal to enter Australian territory without a passport. That is an indisputable fact of life.

The reason asylum seekers are not prosecuted for this illegality is that the Refugee Convention demands that they not be. The Convention does not, however, magically make the act legal. It is, in effect, a matter of no consequence that asylum seekers have to breach immigration laws to seek asylum.

Article 31 – Refugees unlawfully in the country of refuge

1. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.

The Convention makes illegal entry irrelevant, not legal.

Someone made an interesting point on Mungo MacCallum’s recent Drum article:

You can breach a law without committing a crime, Monty. The asylum seekers have committed an unlawful act under Australian law (ie. not a crime) and under International law it may be illegal to cross a country’s border without permission, but, again, it’s not considered to be a crime. There simply is no legal accusation of criminality when it comes to asylum seekers. They’re not detained because they’re accused of committing any crimes, they’re just being denied entry to the Australian community.

doctorrob54January 14, 2014 at 11:51 pm

Well Dan,how much more plain can you explain it to people that did not fully or want to understand or listen to simple”fact”,For my money,any body that wants to continue disputing your point is an obvious hateful,
racist b***ard and all I can say is f***em.

DavidJanuary 15, 2014 at 1:42 pm

hysterical rantings from the emotionally retarded. to the morons who think that these country shopping scabs deserve a free ride…. no they don’t. The overwhelming majority are trying to get here for economic reasons. When you have these scabs stopping in malaysia for cosmetic plastic surgery, when you get classes for behgahlis and pakistanis in how to pretend to by rohingya’s, { a non existant group, made up to attempt to legitimize their invasion of Myamar}, you have to ask how stupid people would be to believe that they are real. refugees

Pistachio CJanuary 15, 2014 at 1:55 pm

I still remain sceptical about this poll.

It’s been 2 days since I sent an email off to UMR research asking some polite questions on the methodology of the poll and for whom it was commissioned.

Still no answer from them, however I note with some concern that on 2 occasions in the last 24 hours, Leigh Sales, 7.30 report 14 Jan & Crikeys Editorial Comments 15 Jan, have referenced it as a legitimate benchmark for measuring our nations compassion or lack thereof for asylum seekers.

Luke WeylandJanuary 15, 2014 at 2:15 pm

Peter, Asylum Seekers are not insects- they are human beings. Abraham, Jesus, Muhammed, Confucius, Zoroaster,were all Asylum Seekers. Asylum Seekers are people who have a well founded fear that if they remain where they are, they will be murdered. Your are a ultra right wing extremist.

allenmcmahonJanuary 15, 2014 at 3:19 pm

@David; hysterical unsubstantiated rantings indeed.

Australia is currently spending $5 billion per year in its ‘war’ on asylum seekers. To this you can add the naval costs, The full cost of an Armidale Patrol Boat is $36,000 per sea day. A much larger Anzac Frigate costs $568,000, while a Survey Ship has running costs of approximately $138,000 per sea day. With two frigates, three patrol boats and a survey ship for Operation Spurious Borders it adds up to a tidy sum and that does not include the Orion aircraft patrolling the region.

The UNHCR received $5.3 billion for 10 million refugees in the 2012-13 financial year. Given the underfunding of the UNHCR, no space in the camps in Malaysia and Indonesia this is a problem that is not going to go away regardless of LNP policy. The fact is that no matter how bad the government makes it the alternative for asylum seekers is worse.

Pistachio CJanuary 15, 2014 at 3:28 pm

@ David
Comment – January 15, 2014 • 1:42 pm

Can you provide references to prove the following claims you make?

1) That asylum seekers are receiving cosmetic plastic surgery on-route to Australia.
2) That classes are held for Bengalis and Pakistanis in how to pretend to by Rohingya’s, and
3) That Rohingyas are a non existent group.

Or are they, as I suspect, simplified racist talking points you’ve gleaned from reading the comments section at various News Corpse blogs?

Michael TaylorJanuary 15, 2014 at 2:30 pm

Luke, your response to Peter was appropriate and spot-on. My response, however, was to delete his comment.

Any comment that condones violence or contains defamation quickly finds its way into the rubbish bin.

DavidJanuary 15, 2014 at 6:42 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoluRS-6g2I, for the fake rohingya, as well as many others
….if you don’t know that there’s no such group in reality, but bengahli’s who have invaded Myamar and call themselves a name they picked in a effort to legitimize their illegal entry and subsequent refusal to leave the country, now you do.
re the cue jumping country shoppers, they were getting nose and boob jobs in malaysia, b4 comming to indonesia, and then shedding crocodile tears for the clowns in the media who lapped it up… why dont you put down yr latest issue of glw and look it up for yourself? – or would actually doing some thing yourself rather than be spoon fed a bit too much?

allenmcmahonJanuary 15, 2014 at 7:11 pm

@ David a youtube video is hardly a credible source, apart from the one I saw with Morisson and Abbott in SS uniforms – and find the rest yourself indicates that you are just making things up.

Dan RowdenJanuary 15, 2014 at 7:41 pm

David,

Odd that asylum seekers claiming to be rohingya don’t seem to be especially well represented in any statistics I can find.

Funny that.

PeterJanuary 15, 2014 at 8:21 pm

and find the rest yourself indicates that you are just making things up.

Either that, or he’s ashamed to own up to the source he’s using 😉

Pistachio CJanuary 15, 2014 at 8:48 pm

@ David – Oh dear me, another one who justifies his small minded racist viewpoints by linking to youtube videos that have only garnered 48 views. (46 of which were probably his). FAIL

allenmcmahonJanuary 15, 2014 at 9:27 pm

@David; I tend to get my information from credible sources and if the UNHCR recognizes Rohingya’s as a cultural group within Burma and one of the most oppressed minorities in the world I guess I am going to go with that.

The Burmese government, a military junta, apart from killing them, does not recognize them on the basis that they originated in India and in their opinion only came to Burma with the British according to them some two hundred years ago. Anthropologists place their origins India but believe their culture and links to Burma date back some 2,000 years so I guess I am going to go with that.

If only being around for a couple of hundred years determined ones race we have a bit of a problem in Australia. Under this criteria the first Australians can tell us to get back to where we came from.

DavidJanuary 15, 2014 at 9:36 pm

pistachio, I realize those who are emotionally damaged or incapable of dealing with facts resort to childish name calling. As you have called me a racis.t I invite you to point out where I have said any race is inferior to any other. Uhhhm, what’s that? You cant? Gee, it’s almost like to stock standard come back from leftards is again shown to be as baseless as it is retarded.

Kaye LeeJanuary 15, 2014 at 10:45 pm

David can you show me where you got the information that asylum seekers are going via Malaysia to get plastic surgery on their way here? I have looked and the only think I can find is an article in The Australian where one person asked the people carrying out health checks on Christmas Island if they could get a boob job for free. This may or may not have happened but I am not sure it is a widespread strategy.

Can I ask you David, do you think any of the people coming on boats are genuine refugees fleeing violence, persecution, and trauma or are they all cashed up and having a fat old time holidaying around the world?

doctorrob54January 15, 2014 at 11:35 pm

You don’t want me to do you Kaye,and I suppose neither you Dan.How you folk answer back to such a low life,no intelligence cretin with such aplomb amazes me,you too allenmcmahon.You folks are beautiful.I am going to stay ugly,just skip this time.

John FraserJanuary 16, 2014 at 12:03 am

@David

Perhaps you would like to explain your unnatural fear of refugees ?

You certainly have expressed it in so many ways.

randalstellaJanuary 16, 2014 at 5:48 am

David, old chap.
Provide verifiable evidence. Don’t really want to read how you are such a sensitive fellow, after all – despite using abuse as if argument. The verifiable evidence is what has been requested. Not youtube.
It seems beyond absurd for anyone to put themselves through the rigours of life as a refugee, staying in filthy refugee camps, risking barely seaworthy boats crammed to danger point with other desperate people – and while doing this take the opportunity to have cosmetic surgery along the way.. And you are also suggesting that this is a common or at least typifying practice. Evidence?
You wouldn’t be one of those who in another breath pillory Labor for ‘allowing’ desperate and defenceless asylum seekers to risk drowning? That would be contradicting yourself. You know what that means? It means that in trying to claim anything and everything for a base political stance, you gain credibility for nothing.

On the Rohingyas. They have a language which is their own. This is a standard criterion for ethnic or cultural identity. Do you dispute this? On what evidence? Why and how would they fake(?) a cultural identity? When did this fake begin, with what motive? Does that motive still apply? Are the present living members of their cultural grouping to blame for it?
For the sake of argument, even if it were true that they came to Myamar during the British Empire – which you call an “invasion” by them – that is generations ago. Does that justify their victimisation by a military junta; and/or does it make their claims to be refugees any less valid?
You seem to have a problem with basic logic. It may because of an inclination to malignancy.
What is your answer to the questions asked of you by several people here? Besides calling people morons etc. Did you notice how polite some replies have been? Is that your idea of a display of weakness?
In any reply could you please refrain from personal abuse? Or is that the indispensable part of your politics?

Pistachio CJanuary 16, 2014 at 7:42 am

@David – When you abuse groups of people with unsubstantiated claims based on their race or ethnicity, as you have above. Then I’ll call it racism.

diannaartJanuary 16, 2014 at 7:44 am

Just quick comment on the Art of Asylum and Body Maintenance

1. Have major surgery such as rhinoplasty or silicon implants.

2. Claim to be part of obscure creed or something.

3. Jump on leaky boat for uncertain voyage to indeterminate stay in ~~concentration~~ refugee camp.

You know it makes sense.

Pistachio CJanuary 16, 2014 at 4:03 pm

UMR have replied to my email with the following response:

1] The poll was commissioned by UMR Research Pty Ltd.

2] It was a nationwide representative survey of Australians aged over 18 years of age.

I am unable to release any more information other that what I’ve provided above, as the research was conducted by a client and therefore they own the research.* It cannot be released to a third party without their prior permission.

Make of that what you will. I certainly will continue to be highly sceptical of this poll until I know who that client was, how the representative sample was chosen and the questions that were asked of the respondents.

* I suspect that the research was conducted “for a client” as opposed to “by a client”.

Peter HackJanuary 22, 2014 at 7:05 am

As a casual observer of the Australian scene just a bunch of semi fascist convict/ colonial red necks… oh that and some wallabies..

Dan RowdenFebruary 3, 2014 at 4:27 pm

Pistachio C,

This discussion is a little dead now, but here’s the detail of the poll in question:

http://www.umr.com.au/expertise/reports/item/90-dec-2013-umr-report-attitudes-to-asylum-seekers-and-mining

doctorrob54February 4, 2014 at 9:28 pm

It is a bit old Dan but when you have people such as David continuing to post dribble,and using denial as a defense mechanism to deny his racism it is hard to just let it slide without another comment.

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