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What is better than drowning, according to the Australian Government?

The Federal Government is determined to stick to its policy of torturing innocent people to deter criminals. Apparently the only way to take power away from people smugglers is to ensure that perfectly legal asylum seekers who previously made it safely to Australia by boat are treated in the most barbaric way possible. In some kind of twisted Coalition logic, it asserts by its actions that the most effective way to prevent people drowning at sea is to torture those that survive.

Immigration Minister Peter Dutton appears to understand that actions are more important than words, as does former Immigration Minister and current Treasurer, Scott Morrison. Both have made it clear that it’s not acceptable to simply intercept boats making their way to Australia, remove asylum seekers and detain the people smugglers. No, the only way to save lives is to detain and subject every man, woman and child to the cruellest, most inhumane treatment possible. The Coalition has a strong message for asylum seekers, “Dare to flee war, persecution or genocide, and we will make your lives so rotten you’ll beg to return to where you came from.”

According to the Coalition, there is nothing worse than drowning at sea. According to the actions of Dutton, Morrison, and Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, arbitrary detention, torture, rape, sexual abuse, violent assaults, and denial of medical treatment are all better than drowning.

In some respects, they have a point. Death is final. It is the end. There is no return from death. Drowning really is a final outcome.

Torture, on the other hand, rape, sexual abuse, violent assaults, denial of medical treatment; none of these things results in immediate death. No, these things, continuously supported by the Australian Government by its lack of action, ensure that people stay alive; although not so much alive as a lingering, painful existence from which there is no escape. Asylum seekers who attempt to escape by ending their own lives, are subjected to more pain and torture.

It seems the Australian Government is determined to stop people drowning at all costs.

Based on the events of the past few years, the Government has demonstrated a number of things that it believes are better than drowning.

  1. Being bashed to death by security guards who are meant to protect you.
  2. Dying a slow, lingering death from septicaemia from an untreated foot infection.
  3. Housing a five month old baby in a stinking hot, rat-infested tent without access to appropriate formula, hygienic facilities to prepare food, and placing her mother in so much stress she can’t breastfeed properly.
  4. Being so suicidal you can’t be trusted to be left alone for five minutes with a lawyer or husband, but considered well enough to be flown to detention in Nauru.
  5. Depriving women of basic sanitary items and forcing them to ask male security guards for pads while blood clots run down their legs.
  6. Leaving a young child with a broken arm untreated for weeks.
  7. Being brutally raped as a 23 year old, and denied medical treatment for weeks, if not months, and forced to continue a pregnancy that is making you physically sick.
  8. Having medical treatment delayed after being brutally raped and attempting suicide.
  9. Young boys being attacked, beaten and robbed.
  10. The sexual abuse of children.
  11. Sending children who are suffering from serious mental health issues back to detention where they won’t have access to proper treatment and their condition will worsen.
  12. Waterboarding and being cable-tied to a bed and dropped from height.
  13. Dying after being denied medical treatment for two weeks.

Astoundingly, while on one hand declaring that the arbitrary and indefinite detention of asylum seekers is necessary to deter the people smugglers, and proudly boasting of its cruel policies, the Government’s main defence in a High Court challenge to offshore detention was that it has no control over the detention centres and besides, there is now no detention after the Nauruan Government coincidentally opened up the centre several days before the challenge was to be heard. This is not the first time the Government has changed the rules at the last minute to thwart any attempts to test the legality of the offshore detention policy and hold it accountable.

The Australian Government behaves as though what happens on Nauru is not Australia’s responsibility. It deliberately and publicly sends men, women and children, including tiny babies, into torturous conditions, yet steps back and says, “its not our problem.” It says the detention centre is not “controlled” by Australia.

The Government’s defence amounts to “it’s nothing to do with us”. At least in this respect the Government’s words and actions are consistent. It continues to fail to act on mounting evidence of appalling conditions for asylum seekers and refugees on the remote island prisons, despite Turnbull recently expressing “concern”, as though the barbaric treatment of innocent people is news to him.

The Government uses the harsh treatment of asylum seekers detained in a third world shithole to attempt to deter people lawfully seeking asylum. It actively sends people to Nauru and Manus Island, and uses tax payer money for the management of the facilities, visas, and the security of the detention centres, yet absolves itself of all responsibility.

The Forgotten Children Report from the Australian Human Rights Centre provides clear evidence of the abhorrent conditions of immigration detention.

The United Nations has found that Australia’s immigration policy and conditions in detention centres amounts to torture.

The Moss Report, commissioned by the Government itself, found that there is evidence of rapes, sexual assaults and drugs for sexual favours in the Australian run centre on Nauru.

A Senate Committee Inquiry found that the Nauru detention centre is not safe for children.

United Nations’ Special Rapporteur on the human rights of migrants cancelled a visit as the Government could not guarantee that people who spoke with him would not be prosecuted under the Border Force Act.

Despite ongoing criticism, the Government insists on promoting the same tired line that anything compassionate, humane and in line with the basic standards of human rights expected in a Western democracy will lead to more deaths in Australian waters.

It seems that it’s not the deaths the Government fears; it’s the method of death and the publicity surrounding it. Heart wrenching images of children washed up on beaches turns asylum seekers from illegal immigrants to be feared into humans who deserve care and help. Instead, the Government supports the slow, lingering, torturous death of innocent people in detention, which it does everything to hide, threatening two years jail for doctors, nurses, teachers and other professionals for publicly disclosing the appalling treatment of asylum seekers, including the sexual abuse of children.

“You’re going to die from a hunger strike protesting your inadequate treatment after being bashed in immigration detention? You shouldn’t have sought asylum by boat”, will be the next heartless press statement from Dutton. “If we relax our draconian policies, people might drown”.

Apparently anything is better than drowning.

 

84 comments

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  1. Kate M

    Agree completely – but would qualify with ‘better than drowning in Australian waters’. Apparently drowning in other people’s oceans or in international waters is also better than drowning in Australian waters.

  2. mars08

    So, in summary: being used as a vulnerable, isolated, demonised, powerless, innocent, helpless pawn by both major political parties to gather votes from bogans, bigots, bullies and bed-wetters in the marginal seats… is better than drowning at sea.

  3. Denis H

    The treatment of asylum seekers is beyond disgusting. The politicians who implemented this policy should be charged with human rights violations and hang their heads in shame.

  4. RosemaryJ36

    I am so ashamed of Australia’s treatment of refugees, and this ill-treatment is endorsed by governments of both parties and by an appalling number of the Australian population.
    This is our holocaust and we are behaving in an unforgivable way.

  5. Loz

    Kate M – absolutely right! There is far more compassion in other countries for asylum seekers and this government and previous governments should be ashamed of their complete lack of empathy for the plight of these men,women and children..

  6. Marilyn

    And the lie is there are no people smugglers and there never have been. In case anyone doubts that, our courts have been saying it since March 2000 when the ALP/Liberals invented them and Ruddock ranted endlessly about them.

    Stop the smugglers is well known code for torture the refugees so they stay out. I worked out the cost of Dutton’s claim that he has kept 650 whole refugees out of Australia in the last 2 years.

    It amounts to about $3 million per person, $1 million or more to jail them on Nauru or Manus, $100,000 a year on the mainland, $20,000 if we free them on the dole and zero if we let them work.

    There is no method to our madness at all, it’s just insanity.

  7. silkworm

    There are votes to be gained by appealing to the cruellest, basest instincts of the population. What redneck doesn’t get some glee out of thinking that some lesser person, hopefully a Muslim, is being subjected to the rape and torture?

  8. kathysutherland2013

    I’m so angry that this situation has been politicised! How often have you heard “Oh, but it started under Labor!” As if that’s any excuse! It’s a human rights issue, not a political one. I don’t care which government instituted this shocking system, they were wrong. It saddens me to think, as Silkworm pointed out, that the torture of innocent people has become a vote-getting exercise.
    And even if we were to entertain the notion that asylum-seekers are not innocent people (economic migrants, whatever) torture is still wrong! We do not treat our convicted criminals like this!
    But in fact, they come to us for help, and this is how we treat them! Sorry, I’m getting so angry I’m babbling!

  9. mars08

    kathysutherland2013… Well said. Where is the outrage? Where is the shame?

  10. Sir ScotchMistery

    One of the reasons I really like writing in the AIMN is that I can rack up scores against the likes of those elected sub-humans who run about every few years asking us to trust them for another 3 years, knowing they never visit here. Likewise the ranks of the multi-generational unemployed in Western Sydney, who are in general (based on the odd news report when they kill each other or their kids), not really capable of understanding most of the big words we use here. Those are the special people who make politicians think their views even remotely represent those of us who actually do think.

    We elect people with no chins, who used to be drug cops, and put them in charge of people after we are know full well that a person who becomes a copper, actually isn’t completely human in an interactive way. Their entire lives from the cradle to the grave are about imposing their twisted will on others and they generally appear to start with bashing their siblings, and develop into cops later, but the behaviour actually doesn’t change, just their targets. Instead of siblings they become wives, children and so on. Which is not to suggest that particular chinless ex-cop beats his wife, it’s just a progression. Siblings, the criminals then the refugees.

    Likewise English persons, who come to Australia on a ticket we paid for, who don’t see the point in standing up and becoming Australians, but rather continue to suckle at the public teat, their entire lives. In fact on this one, I’m not sure how this will go down, but what job could the English person have outside politics? I mean really, what use is he to man or beast?

    Then there’s that German fellow from Tasmania and that Belgian person. Can’t get a proper job so become politicians in Australia. Maybe that one asked the wrong question or was hampered by his speech impediment. “I vant to go to Austraia”, he mumbles to the young girl at Student Travel in his own country. Then he ends up here all strange and demented, still with the speech problem, and realised the weather was better in Australia than Austria, so stayed and become a minister for something or other. Completely f*cking useless in the real world, but Australia says “okay mate you’re completely okay to try for politics” and then non-thinking voters just put 1 beside his name and that’s the country, f*cked again.

    Non thinking voters will be the death of us as a proper country.

    Year after year, no matter what the liarberals spit out as a representative, they just keep putting “1” beside the blue L. F*ck-knuckles. They shouldn’t have the vote if they are too stupid to ask questions.

    Every election we get all that printed crap, aimed at less than 20% of the population. The pundits refer to “swinging” voters, but they are really “thinking” voters, who hopefully look at all the issues and vote according to the best plan put forward. Thank God for them I suppose, since either Liberal National Party, or Alternative Liberal Party certainly won’t give us a real go, because their only worry is getting back onto the same public teat.

  11. evacripps

    Reading this quote from Dutton makes me so angry., “”The Defence and Border Force staff on our vessels who were pulling dead kids out of the water don’t want the boats to restart,” he said.”

    This was in response to doctors describing the impacts of detention on children, including this doctor: “Dr Isaacs visited Nauru in December 2014 and saw a six-year-old girl try to hang herself. He said his visit to the island left him deeply troubled, and he experienced nightmares on his return.
    “These are very traumatic cases where children are severely suicidal and in a lot of trouble,” Dr Isaacs said.”

    What a vile, heartless person Dutton is. He puts the feelings of his Border Force goons who, in reality, are not likely to have to pull dead kids out of the water, before the hundreds, if not thousands of professionals who have to deal with traumatised, suicidal and depressed asylum seekers, including children, being tortured under the ‘care’ of Australia.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/royal-childrens-hospital-refused-to-discharge-mother-and-child-to-detention-20151011-gk6exf.html#ixzz3oIVytDmL
    Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

  12. mars08

    In a way, you have to admire the knuckle daggers of the UPF… I imagine it takes a lot of effort to maintain that level of hatred, ignorance, fear and bluster…

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=Qf2vrSgfPl0

  13. Neil of Sydney

    I wonder what the author of this article was doing when this was going on under Rudd/Gillard

    https://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/asylum-seekers-refugees-and-human-rights-snapshot-report/2-onshore-detention-and

    2.4 Mental health impacts of detention

    Between January 2011 and February 2013 there were 4,313 incidents of actual, threatened and attempted serious self-harm recorded in immigration detention facilities in Australia.[73] In the 2012–2013 financial year there were 846 incidents of self-harm across the immigration detention network.[74]

    Between 1 July 2010 and 20 June 2013, there were 12 deaths in immigration detention facilities. Coroners have found that six of those deaths were suicides.

  14. Michael Taylor

    Neil, I would imagine that Eva would have been appalled. But unlike you, she is talking about the present.

  15. Sir ScotchMistery

    And she is talking sense, as opposed to NoSy.

    Michael can you investigate an ignore button please?

  16. Kaye Lee

    Must we endure him Michael?

    Neil, we want suggestions and solutions about the present and planning for the future. Please, please, please, stop. You are worse than water torture.

  17. Roswell

    Neil is an imbecile.

  18. TechinBris

    Neil thinks he is being intelligent, which sub-sequentially proves he is not, or just maladjusted in their humanity.

  19. silkworm

    It’s good to see Neil expressing concern for the welfare of asylum seekers. How very noble and altruistic of him.

    Congratulations, Neil. You’re now one of us.

  20. Roswell

    Neil, if you’re wondering why your comments aren’t appearing, I’ll tell you why. I’ve been deleting them.

    People here are sick of your crap. Every article is derailed by you by continuing to bring up what Gillard or Rudd did. Or Hawke. Or Keating. Or Whitlam. It’s always as an distraction.

    Dont bother trying to comment here again. This isn’t my site, but I’m absolutely positive this will be supported by the owners.

  21. Sir ScotchMistery

    I guess I would say from a civil liberties perspective, that NoSy has a right to be heard.

    And he is, regularly, but at the end of the day as Roswell notes, he derails discussion with insubstantial, unsubstantiated garbage.

    I hate censorship, but worse, I detest it when staff members of the parliamentary class don’t allow proper people to be heard. I therefore, sadly, have to agree with Roswell in his decision.

  22. Roswell

    Thank you, Sir SM. He puts added demands and pressure on us moderators. I have better things to do in my life.

    Yes, everyone has a right to be heard, but in Neil’s case he is only interested in trolling. In my humble opinion trolls shouldn’t be given a platform.

  23. Sir ScotchMistery

    As noted, you have my support in your decision, and I have opined for months that if no one responds to his rubbish he starves for oxygen.

  24. Roswell

    Spot on, Sir.

  25. Kaye Lee

    I wouldn’t mind if it wasn’t just constant repetition of the past. After a few years of it I have more than had enough. He’s easy to ignore but leaving his words there unchallenged for others to read is sometimes hard. I have lived in hope that he would give the conservative side of today’s policies and problems but nope, nope, nope.

  26. Adrianne Haddow

    Well said, Sir SM (Oct 12 at 8.15).
    You express my outrage at this government, and its humourless, inhumane puppets who represent the IPA in parliament, so much better than I could.
    Especially the description of the lacklustre Deadpan Dutton and the job skills he brings to his portfolio.

  27. Kaye Lee

    https://archiearchive.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/dutton4.jpg?w=500

  28. speak no evil

    nice censorship here.. if neil is so wrong, simply show it in a reply. most censorship occurs when people simply dont want to hear an alternate opinion, and simply are unable to refute what is being said.

    i dont agree with neil – or some others.. but censorship, just because you can, well, there is nothing worse. it is cowardly and lacks credibility. what is so hard about just skimming over comments youre not interested in? if you dont agree with him.. then simply dont respond. time to grow up.

  29. Michael Taylor

    Oh, good. Someone else dropping in to tell us what to do.

  30. Sir ScotchMistery

    Now now Michael, we knew the “C” bomb would be dropped. It was dropped by me earlier, and so, SNE since you are not really in touch with the issues raised, and don’t appear to be making a point, perhaps you can feel free to leave as well.

    There were literally hundreds of replies to NoSy, none of which seemed to sway him from his view that Ronald Reagan was great and that trickle down works. One or two or twenty replies, no issue. Hundreds? Don’t think so Timmy. We are all far too busy.

  31. mars08

    Frankly SSM… I would go out of my way to ENSURE that I am “much too busy” to reply to the waffle spun out by NoS. Even if it means taking time to watch the steam rise off fresh chicken shit.

  32. speak no evil

    not telling you what to do.. simply saying it is hypocritical for you to pretend youre some sort of independent source of news and views if you only want to present a view you agree with. do whatever you want, if you want to be gutless hypocrites, it is of no concern to me.

  33. speak no evil

    also.. if you dont want people to drop by and give their opinion, then maybe you shouldnt set up a website that invites peoples comments. you really are quite a dim unit..

  34. silkworm

    speak no evil, Neil has been shown many times why he is wrong, but he never listens. He is just a Liberal troll who, up till now, has been using freedom of speech as an excuse to peddle his lies. I have no tolerance for liars, and I am glad this site has finally decided to get rid of him. There are plenty of right-wing sites that will gladly accept his lies. He can go there. I suspect you would be more comfortable there too.

  35. speak no evil

    @ silkworm, i suspect you often make judgements of people that are completely wrong. if neil is so bad, it should be very easy to put him in his place with a concise, valid argument. if that is too hard, i guess that says more about the people who take him on, than it does him. not that anyone cares what i think, but i find it preferable to see what other people are thinking, and to make up my own mind, rather than have self appointed unqualified comment arbiters decide what is and what isnt worthy for me too see.

    you prefer censorship? fine, plenty of that all over the place, but i was of the belief this particular site promoted itself as being different to most of the mainstream offerings.

  36. Kaye Lee

    speak no evil,

    You are apparently unaware that Neil has been posting that exact comment on every article for years. He has been answered a million times. It makes no difference. he just posts the same comment on the next article regardless of what it is about. The annoyance you are hearing is not because we disagree with Neil. Pretty much everyone here agrees that offshore detention is wrong. But Neil refuses to discuss the problem….he just says about everything it’s Labor’s fault. On offshore detention I agree they are complicit but saying that endlessly is pointless.

  37. Daemon Singer

    I wonder whether SNE and NoSy are one and the same?

  38. The AIM Network

    SNE, you’re quite entitled to set up your own web site and adopt Neil.

  39. speak no evil

    @ daemon.. asif.. @ the aim network.. if i set up a website, i wouldnt need to resort to censorship to win an argument.
    in my opinion, right wing nut jobs need help, however, he makes a valid point here, that neither side of our current political spectrum have a monopoly on morality or humanity, both sides are equally as evil.

    to argue that any level of censorship is a good idea, or that the answer to all our problems is to simply get rid of the coalition, demonstrates a skull full of fecal matter.

    if the aim network doesnt want people to offer opinions – then they should shut down the bloody comment section.,, if you only want opinions of a certain colour.. then you really should rename the site to the circle jerk network.

  40. mars08

    Quote: “… neither side of our current political spectrum have a monopoly on morality or humanity…”

    There’s two sides to the current spectrum? Two? Really?

  41. The AIM Network

    SNE, too much time, effort and money goes in to maintaining this web site for it only to be sabotaged by Neil. He is no longer tolerated.

    One of our moderators blocked Neil and you call us gutless. Funny, but we have been told on many occasions that we are being gutless by not blocking him. So I guess we can never win.

    BTW, you might want to read this from our Disclaimer:

    The owner, the administrators or authors of this blog reserve the right to edit or delete any comments submitted to this blog without notice due to:

    1. Comments deemed to be spam or questionable spam
    2. Comments including profanity
    3. Comments containing language or concepts that could be deemed offensive
    4. Comments that attack a person individually or are considered defamatory
    5. Comments posted with the clear intention of diverting or disrupting the topic

    Neil comes under Number 5.

    Incidentally, so do you.

  42. The AIM Network

    I wonder whether SNE and NoSy are one and the same?

    Daemon, you’d be surprised what our software can find out for us, but we won’t be bothering.

  43. speak no evil

    “Daemon, you’d be surprised what our software can find out for us, but we won’t be bothering.”

    you can find out screen resolution, operating system ip address, and thats about it.. all of which can be easily spoofed, so if you bother or not, there is no way you could ever know. but all i have said, is that NOS made a valid comment comment, in saying labor is no better than liberals. as far as your accusation that i am being off topic, i simply replied to a comment where someone was rejoicing in the ability to delete comments they didnt agree with, and suggested censorship was a bad thing, regardless if you ‘reserve the right to do so”, and then have only responded to other comments addressed to me.

    it is usually quite easy to show right wing nut jobs what they say is wrong, if you cant win an argument against a RWNJ after all the ammo the coalition gives you, then youre not really trying.. but if that is really too hard for most here, then simply dont engage him. it is not rocket science.

  44. Kaye Lee

    This is a classic example of what happens every time. The thread gets derailed arguing about Neil.

    Can you tell me why Neil’s statistics would stop at 2013? Apportioning blame does not help the situation of the people who are currently being abused which is what this thread is about. If harking back to what Labor did would close the centres then I would write a thesis on it.

    Do you have any opinions about the current situation and any suggestions about what should be done?

  45. Daemon Singer

    SNE not one person had a go at him for that comment, at a personal level. Not one, apart from to argue he was wrong. No one put crap on him for telling lies, merely noted that he did it, all the time. The rewriting of history is fine if you like that sort of thing. I don’t, and neither do most people here. Tiresome as it may seem, it was all he said, time after time after time.

    And if your bugbear is that particular troll, I would thoughtfully suggest you get a life as well. Probably somewhere else where they see A Abbott, Englishman and former occupant of the seat reserved for Australians sitting as PM of this country, as a thing of wonder. Can I suggest Andrew Bolt’s little effort?

  46. Roswell

    SNE, I’m probably this site’s least tolerant moderator. If I see any more comments solely about Neil or how we should be treating him then I won’t hesitate to delete your comment.

  47. speak no evil

    he is no bugear of mine..
    i have a perfectly happy life thanks very much. btw .. that is off topic.

    @ kaye.. often, comment threads evolve, and stray from the original article a little.. that is not always a bad thing. my suggestion on what should be done, would be for sites like this, to use whatever influence they have in exposing the lies that have led us to this situation in the first place.

    the lies of 9/11, ie; the official account is impossible.
    the lies that we are being told we must secure our borders against manufactured bogeymen, ie; isis.. that we need all lose our rights and liberties in order to be safe.. the lies that both sides of politics are telling today, that russia is to blame for MH17..

    but of course to you, that is all “conspiracy theory” – and not worthy of any further discussion, regardless of the validity of the arguments that support it.

    we get the governments we deserve.. if people wish to remain willfully ignorant and apathetic, this is what happens, all the hand wringing and tears wont help. we need media with “guts” willing to publish things that matter. the article above rightly condems our treatment of asylum seekers.. but our government is way more evil than that. we have shown our willingness to go to wars against people who were never a threat to anyone, based on lies told by our government, killing hundreds of thousands..

    happy to lock up the mentally retarded with no trial, and no evidence for years, all because we are to scared to speak the truth..
    http://sydwalker.info/blog/2010/12/17/are-the-port-arthur-killers-still-out-there/

    edit @ roswell.. i just saw your comment.. im not the one who keeps on about him!

    and moderation means more than just deleting comments because you disagree with them

  48. Kaye Lee

    backing away slowly……

  49. speak no evil

    backing away slowly……

    yep.. and you didnt even look at the evidence at the link i posted.. that is hardly credible..
    you ask me what i would suggest, and i told you what i thought.. and you rebuff that.. with nothing of substance.. just a remark that you perhaps consider witty, but that only shows you have no real argument against what i said.

    so then, what is your suggestion to stop the atrocities committed in our name?

  50. Kaye Lee

    I did read the Port Arthur link….I think it’s a load of rubbish. Aside from that, I have no interest in past conspiracy theories at all.

    My suggestion is that we immediately close offshore detention centres and bring those people to Australia. We open processing centres in Indonesia, Malaysia, India and Turkey where people can make application and have them processed in a specified time frame with successful applicants flown to Australia. The only people who should be incarcerated onshore are those awaiting health and security checks. The security for any detention centre should be provided by the ADF or the AFP.

    We should increase our humanitarian intake and foreign aid and stop foreign aggression unless it is sanctioned and co-ordinated by the UN.

    We should build a high speed rail which would help with revitalising regional centres who may be welcoming to refugees. It would help with employment and housing affordability and urban congestion and free up existing freight routes. We should build a proper NBN so more people can work and study from home.

  51. Daemon Singer

    And develop an ignore button…

  52. speak no evil

    you didnt have time to view those videos in the time you responded kaye. there is no conspiracy theory there, just facts. perhaps you can show me one piece of evidence that proves bryants guilt beyond all reasonable doubt? I know you can’t .. and claiming youre not interested in “past conspiracies’ as some sort of excuse is an invalic cop out.

    you think testimony from someone who was there that day, and retired police officers.. rubbish..

    that is a perfect example of the willful ignorance i was talking about. bringing people to australia, wont stop hundreds of thousands more seeking refuge, holding the government to account, and stopping the illegal war mongering based on lies will, but you first have to have the cognisant ability to see when you are being lied to, and by sticking your head in the sand, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

    daemon, you already have the option to ignore any comment you wish to, highlighting your inability to do that is not the best way to try and look clever.

  53. Daemon Singer

    I guess I can do that, and choose not to. It’s not about trying to look clever either, it’s far deeper than that.

    The issue we were complaining about, wasn’t that we were unable/unprepared to ignore the trite rubbish from him, it was the fact that more often than not, he was off-topic and derailed the discussion, in exactly the way you are doing now. I’m fortunate in that I can spend a few minutes occasionally looking at what is being written and form an opinion on both the writing and the writer. I choose to occasionally respond, and I have to agree with Kaye Lee on the particular point you have decided to now deride her for, and that is the theories (thousands of them) behind 9/11.

    I believe you have a right to express your view about a particular issue, but why not start a thread on it and offer people the opportunity to respond to you directly. Why is it that trolls, and for the moment I see no reason to think you aren’t one, feel a need to just hijack discussions that are of benefit to those who choose to be a party to them?

    You raised, initially anyway, your view that AIMN is being censored, but don’t appear to have gone through hundreds of posts by us, about him. I assume you don’t have your own blog, which is why IMHO you and yours choose to ram-raid what is actually one of the better places to exchange political nonsense in Australia where you generally aren’t howled down for your views by RWNJs.

    We have a few RWNJs here. They are welcome to participate in discussion, as long as it’s on topic. You might like to write something about online censorship in your own post, as we all do when we have something to put out for discussion, no matter the subject. The thing we have a lot of, is people who vote thoughtfully. In other words, progressively. You write the entire site off because one moron decided that we couldn’t have a discussion without his off-topic bullshit.

    You can do the same and be closed down, or you can be a party to the discussions here and your input may be worthwhile enough for people to engage. Or not. But don’t expect that everyone here will agree with you in your support of the conspiracy theories of 9/11. If you have a case to put, put it, and do exactly what the rest of us have to do. Defend the position you take, and youtube videos cannot be considered proof in any respect.

    The one thing I would ask is that you employ decent grammar and punctuation, simply because it looks nicer, and doesn’t make us think you are just another uneducated mind-f*cked turtle from Western Sydney, without the wit to understand the key.

    Off soap box…

  54. Kaye Lee

    I went to school in Western Sydney and received an excellent education there.

    No, I didn’t watch the videos. I read the article – it did not interest me. That is not a cop out but a statement of fact. I notice you ask me for my suggestions and do not respond to them in any way.

  55. Neil of Sydney

    Can you tell me why Neil’s statistics would stop at 2013?

    That is why i posted my comment. The article started at 2014 implying these horrible things were cause by the Liberal Party.

    There are no solutions to any problem without stating the cause. The ALP dismantled the Pacific Solution causing all these problems.

  56. Daemon Singer

    Not everyone in Western Sydney takes advantage of the excellent education offered there.

  57. Kaye Lee

    Neil,

    Against my better judgement, I approved your comment.

    “There are no solutions to any problem without stating the cause. The ALP dismantled the Pacific Solution causing all these problems.”

    I agree we must look at causes, something you never do. We must question our aggression in foreign countries, our inaction on climate change, our over-use of finite resources, the inequality of income, world poverty, human rights abuses, our inadequate humanitarian immigration programme etc etc.

    Your persistent failure to do anything except say all the world’s ills can be blamed on Labor is why your views are dismissed as lightweight and irrelevant. You spew rhetoric but show no thought. You apportion blame but offer no suggestions. Your only intent is to create antipathy.

  58. Neil of Sydney

    You apportion blame but offer no suggestions.

    My suggestion is that the Pacific Solution worked. We stop the boats and and take our refugees from UNHCR camps. We could increase our input from 13,750 to whatever. Maybe 30,000.

    In an unjust immoral world John Howard got it right more than other people.

  59. Kaye Lee

    You do not address in any way the causes of the refugee crisis. There is no point just thinking about bandaids when you are pumping arterial blood.

    You also ignore the plight of the people currently in detention.

  60. speak no evil

    @ daemon.. you say i am off topic.. but the topic here is mistreatment of refuggees, suppossedly in our care.
    our government, both left and right wing, have shown they care nought about humanity.. and only act if forced to, to protect their own interests.

    the refugee problem we are witnessing at the moment across the globe, is as manufactured as the terror threat.. and the only way to stop it, is to expose the lies.

    you call me a troll, yet i am doing nothing different than you here, responding to an invitation to express my opinion, though obviously, the moderators here seem to think that some opinions are more worthy than others, and that simply calling someone a troll.. is reason enough to silence them.

    well pardon me, if i happen to feel that on a site like this, where comments are invited, it should be acceptable that all points of view should be able to be expressed and heard.. and not deleted because of personal dislike for a particular commenter..

    @ kaye – your education failed you in reading comprehension.. i did respond to your suggestions, as pathetic as they were.. and i would recommend you spend just a few extra minutes out of your so imprtant life and watch those videos and see why it is not unreasonable why i make the comments i do, instead of just declaring you are uninterested and making further ignorant comments

  61. Kaye Lee

    No thanks.

    “A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement.”

    The description seems very apt to me.

  62. Eva

    “Dying in childbirth is better than drowning” – Dutton’s latest absurdity.

    Despite 800 women dying a DAY from childbirth and related complications around the world, and it being one of the most dangerous things for a women to ever go through, apparently pregnant women held on Nauru under Australia’s ‘care’ are taking Dutton for a mug, and blackmailing him by requesting to be transferred to Australia to give birth, rather than in a third world hospital. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-15/peter-dutton-rules-out-transferring-pregnant-asylum-seekers/6856708

    As a women who has needed two non-elective caesarian sections despite two perfectly healthy pregnancies with no complications, I am appalled at Dutton’s lack of sensitivity. If a woman needs urgent medical treatment during childbirth there isn’t time to fly them to another third world shithole where the facilities might be better.

    Will it take one of these poor women and their babies to die before Dutton wakes up?

  63. Roswell

    OMG. Did Dutton really say that? Appalling.

  64. Kaye Lee

    Eva, my first childbirth was similar. My very healthy son would have died had I not had access to emergency treatment at the last second of what had been a normal pregnancy. He was saved by a last-minute emergency caeserian.

    Part of the Nauru hospital burnt down in 2013. In August this year it was announced that “BRISBANE and Perth companies will undertake a $12 million Australian aid-funded upgrade of Nauru’s hospital.”

    If you look up health facilities on Nauru it says…

    “Republic of Nauru Hospital (RONH) provides free basic medical care; special treatment is limited to diabetes and other obesity-related diseases at the Naeoro Public Health Centre, run by the Department of Public Health. Serious illnesses and injuries cannot be treated on the island and must be sent by air to Australia.”

    http://www.commonwealthofnations.org/sectors-nauru/business/health_and_medical/

  65. Kaye Lee

    Nauru’s Police Force is facing fresh scrutiny after it emerged that a man convicted of rape was allowed to join the police reserves.

    Carnos Scotty pleaded guilty in November 2011 of raping a 16-year-old girl, and was sentenced to three years’ jail.

    He committed the crime while he was on bail for assault.

    Despite his criminal history, he was enlisted as a Nauru police reserve officer during anti-government protests in June.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-15/nauru-police-face-scrutiny-after-convicted-rapist-joined-reserve/6856298

  66. Eva

    @Roswell: The quote is my summary of Dutton’s quotes – he’d never outright say it like that, but I can’t see what else he can possibly mean.

    @Kaye, that just makes me shiver … My daughter is now nearly 3 and I still remember so distinctly (as does every woman when it comes to their own experiences) my enormous relief that I was in a good hospital. She was born at 35.5 weeks gestation, so not only did I face the awful realisation that I needed an emergency caesarian, but also deal with having a premmie baby that would need neo-natal care (thankfully she was able to breathe and just needed tube-feeding for a week). The thing is, I know my situation isn’t abnormal.

    Here’s some stats: “The average maternal mortality rate for Australia from 1990 – 2013 was 6 per 100,000 live births. The average maternal mortality rate for Papua New Guinea from 1990-2013 was 220 per 100,000 live births. Equivalent information is not available for Nauru, however other sources show that in the period 2007-11 Nauru had a reported maternal mortality ratio of 300 deaths per 100,000 live births.”

  67. Neil of Sydney

    You do not address in any way the causes of the refugee crisis.

    I am not Einstein. There has always been and always will be refugees. Howard was faced with this problem and came up with a solution.

    I have yet to see anybody come up with a better solution than the Pacific Solution.

  68. Roswell

    Eva, regardless, he’s still an appalling man.

  69. Eva

    @Roswell. It’s unconscionable. The rhetoric is disgusting. I emailed Dutton earlier and pointed out that if he thinks his Border Force agents will be upset pulling dead kids out of the water, wait until one of them has to witness a women dying in childbirth.

  70. Kaye Lee

    They don’t seem too perturbed about ignoring children trying to hang themselves.

  71. LOVO

    NoS is here *waves* …….. ya still a dick I see, NoS *waves* ….. still push’n the Howard is ‘but a God’ BS, NoS *waves* …….. gawd don’t you ever stop, NoS, no wonder nobody likes ya *waves*
    NoS, your mate little Johnny politicised these poor buggers and you laud him for it 🙄 geezus H your a dick NoS *waves*
    Oh and NoS, remmember when little Johnny ran for PM again and didn’t hold his seat…… oh how I still laugh.. it still just keeps on giving 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 *waves*

  72. Neil of Sydney

    Every human being from Eva’s points 1-13 were locked up by the Australian Labor Party.

  73. Kaye Lee

    You truly can’t help yourself can you Neil. To say you aren’t Einstein is as close as you have got to original thought. I gather you prefer being banned.

  74. kathysutherland2013

    Oh for heaven’s sake, Neil, don’t you get it? It’s not about politics, it’s about human rights!

  75. Felicitas

    Who cares who started it? Who is going to END IT? If we don’t get the message out then I can’t see anything changing for the better. The people on Manus and Nauru are HUMAN, not infectious diseases. That category is reserved for our dominant political class, infecting all of us with fear and loathing for the ‘other’. But all diseases have to run their course, so I guess it’ll take a lot more than the deaths, rapes, suicides and other nasties before we get to the crisis and then start to heal again. Trouble is, such infections also sometimes end in death of the host. What then Australia?

  76. silkworm

    I thought Neil had been banned. WTF is happening?

  77. Daemon Singer

    I’m afraid I have to agree. He doesn’t actually get the depth of the problem. Merely the surface effects.

    I do wish I didn’t feel momentarily bad about seeing him gone, but I did, but it’s okay, he should be gone again. 2 days without him, and just having that other person, was okay, but the issue may be a lot of folk leave because there are a lot of dicks in the joint when Neil and his chum are on board.

  78. speak no evil

    kaye lee.. for your edification.

    http://gumshoenews.com/2015/10/17/keith-noble-challenges-the-australian-press-council-over-martin-bryant/

    call me what you like, but for someone to say they are “not interested” when their government and media lies to them, continually, lies that include taking us into wars of aggression against people who were never a threat.. killing hundreds of thousands..

    well you can call me whatever you like… because you demonstrate just how astute and credible you are with every utterence.

  79. The AIM Network

    We can do without idiots, Daemon. Unfortunately we’re being swamped with them at the moment.

  80. Daemon Singer

    Yes I’m watching as well. Seems a fair go isn’t really something they are all that interested in.

    Did I tell you how much I like snakes? I got a new one the other day. A baby Moralya Spilota but he/she is caramel coloured. Quite beautiful, and very friendly. We decided to call her/him Crickets, but therein lies another story.

    I think it’s time to C bomb that one as well. sne I mean, not the snake.

  81. The AIM Network

    We’ve been busy doing this today, Daemon, and my oh my what nasty little comments are subsequently now coming in. One in particular has been busy telling Michael what to do to himself, but little does he know that the moderator could have been Michael, or Victoria, or Kaye, or John K, or John L, or Torin, or Roswell, or Carol, or Edward.

  82. The AIM Network

    PS, their comments don’t get set aside for moderation any more. They go straight in the spam folder where they are promptly deleted.

  83. Daemon Singer

    Thank goodness. I used to moderate a 15,000 member, up to 2000 posts per day site. I feel your pain.

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