Unleash the hounds
I have often impressed on my children that it is easy to lie, cheat and steal (if I was an Abbott fan I could stop there), but it diminishes you. You must set your own standards. You must value your integrity and be honest so others may be confident in trusting you (plus your stress levels will be much lower). You must respect the rights of others, from their possessions to their feelings. You must try to make a positive contribution to the world. And when you fall down, as you must at times, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and learn from the experience.
I have also stressed to them that every person has something interesting about them and if you listen then you will find it. We don’t all have the same skills or the same interests or opinions but we all have something to contribute. I often hear people say that respect is earned – I disagree. One should always start from a position of respect – contempt is earned.
I don’t admire people who can throw a punch – I admire people who can avoid punching, or people who can take a punch and not retaliate. There is nothing “best and fairest” about hitting someone Tony. I admire people who do what they can to improve the lives of others and to make other people happy.
I realise this is very idealistic and no-one is perfect but, as a working brief, they are reasonable aspirations.
And then we have this government who, by their language and actions, have gone against these very principles. They have unleashed the hounds and Australia is the poorer for it.
Let’s start with climate change.
Malcolm Turnbull and Kevin Rudd reached consensus on the need for an ETS and the majority of Australian people supported taking action on climate change. And then along comes Tone who, in return for a complete turnaround on his previously stated support for carbon pricing, was gifted the leadership by the deniers in the Liberal Party.
In Malcolm Turnbull’s own words:
“the fact is that Tony and the people who put him in his job do not want to do anything about climate change. They do not believe in human caused global warming. As Tony observed on one occasion “climate change is crap” or if you consider his mentor, Senator Minchin, the world is not warming, it’s cooling and the climate change issue is part of a vast left wing conspiracy to deindustrialise the world.”
Tony himself has in just four or five months publicly advocated the blocking of the ETS, the passing of the ETS, the amending of the ETS and if the amendments were satisfactory passing it, and now the blocking of it.
His only redeeming virtue in this remarkable lack of conviction is that every time he announced a new position to me he would preface it with “Mate, mate, I know I am a bit of a weather vane on this, but…..”
Tony then went on an attack dog campaign directed at “working families”, branding Julia Gillard a liar and making wild assertions about $100 lamb roasts and whole towns disappearing, none of which came to fruition. The effect of carbon pricing on the cost of living was estimated to be 0.7%, far short of the 2.5% increase brought about by the introduction of the GST.
Somehow he was able to make people forget that electricity prices had been increasing rapidly for the past two decades with an increase of 170% from 1995 to 2012 – the carbon price was to blame!
He also studiously avoided mentioning the compensation package which saw the proceeds of the carbon tax redistributed to pensioners, families, and trade exposed industries. Seniors groups determined that 93 per cent of pensioner households would be at least 20 per cent better off.
“The discussion about carbon tax is very lopsided at the moment, in that all of the emphasis is on the extra costs that will be born through the tax, but not on the money that will flow back to households through other payments,” said Frank Jotzo, director of the Centre for Climate Economics and Policy at the Australian National University.
Tony’s campaign of fear worked even though it was based on lies. Denialists, sceptics, and conspiracy theorists were given a validity they did not merit and a platform to spout their rubbish. Tony even appeared at a speaking engagement with that fruitcake Monckton who all of a sudden found the ABC, under Maurice Newman, a willing participant in his bullshit
Since coming to power, denialists have been appointed to every advisory role and, regardless of their lack of expertise, their voice has drowned out that of the scientists. From Tony’s page:
Tony Burns: Come on Scott, true believer. In your own words, what is the EVIDENCE that man’s CO2 has caused any of the warming since the Little Ice Age ? … the warming that STOPPED 2 decades ago.
Connie Handbury: I’m sick and tired of the scientific community being bandied around as if they were gods and must be believed and obeyed. Only a small number of wizards ever got anything right and there is good documentary evidence in the star treck trilogy that they were time travellers.
And then we have the disgraceful unleashing of the racist bigots in our society in a very purposeful campaign.
Demonising asylum seekers for political gain was a new low which began with John Howard and was gleefully taken up by Abbott. Who could forget the weeks of Parliament devoted to the “convicted Egyptian jihadist terrorist kept behind a pool fence”. This disgraceful episode is Australia’s version of Peter Greste.
In fact Mr Abdellatif was never charged or convicted on serious terrorism crimes in his native Egypt and turned out not to be a national security threat. He identified himself immediately on reaching Australia and made them aware of the charges against him and provided evidence refuting them.
But because of the campaign of lies waged by the Opposition, Mr Abdellatif was removed from his family and locked up in high-security at Villawood where he remains to this day despite Interpol agreeing he poses no threat.
“I have been separated from my family in detention for over a year for no reason,” he told Fairfax Media. “The separation has been extremely stressful for all my family including my children. We should be reunited and allowed to live in the community. The Immigration department has ignored the new information from Egypt that reveals clearly that all the charges against me are politically motivated and are baseless,” he said. “I am as innocent as the Al-Jazeera journalists who are also the victims of a political trial by the Egyptian military.”
We then had the “feisty, sexy” Fiona Scott suggesting that asylum seekers were responsible for clogging up our highways and hospital waiting rooms.
Reporter: So you mention asylum seekers and overcrowding. I don’t quite get the connection.
Fiona Scott: Well, my recommendation is go and sit in the Emergency Department of Nepean Hospital or go and sit on the M4 and people see 50,000 people come in by boat; that’s more than twice the population of Glenmore Park where we just were.
She later qualified these remarks saying she is not blaming the 161 asylum seekers living in the area for a lack of services in western Sydney, but simply reflecting the concerns of a community she seeks to represent. Rather than allaying the unfounded fears of her constituents, she chose to exploit them.
And of course, we had the concerted campaign by George Brandis and boy wonder, Tim Wilson, to water down racial discrimination laws and champion the rights of bigots to be racist and didn’t the bigots flood out from underneath their rocks. They have been given official sanction for their hatred and Liberal Party pages are full of their vile poison. The following is an exchange I had on Tony Abbott’s facebook page:
Mary McIntosh: I don’t consider having gold credit cards, I phones, digital cameras and the like the possessions of desperate “poor” asylum seekers. They then have the hide to complain they were given food that was out of date.
Kaye Lee: Mary, they are fleeing persecution. It is often the professional people who are targeted…academics, journalists. Seeking asylum isn’t means tested. I am horrified by the selfishness of today’s Australia.
Mary McIntosh: Well if you are so unselfish, how about you take in about half a dozen and fully support them, you know food, clothe them, provide housing, all medical and dental needs etc and show us up as the selfish people of Australia today. But if they are Muslims, don’t forget there will be no more bacon for breakfast, nor roast pork at Christmas. Silly me there won’t be Christmas for you because it offends them. Good luck
Jon. F.Edwards: Well said Mary McIntosh, but you forgot too mention that because she is unclean they will want too circumcise her, make her wear a Burka.
Not content with stirring up the racists, Tony has also made a deliberate strategy of classifying people as “lifters or leaners.” People who are disabled or unemployed or on a pension will now be vilified as a burden on our society.
I remember a period after university when my husband could not get a job in his profession so he applied for other jobs, only to be told he was overqualified – apparently they felt he would not stay so they would not employ him. And we are the lucky ones. I know of many people who have found themselves unemployed through no fault of their own. Those who are made redundant may find another job, only to be made redundant again – last in, first out. Young people with no experience can find it very difficult to get that first break. Unemployment is no picnic and living below the poverty line is a daily struggle.
So well done, Tony. You have done more to change this country in your time as leader of your party than anyone before you. You have turned us into a global pariah and a domestic disgrace. Read the comments on your own Facebook page and understand that YOU are responsible for bringing out the very worst in what used to be a great country which, before you came along, was renowned for its contribution to the world and for lending a helping hand to those in need.
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Kaye, I commend your writing, you are an inspiration to we ‘would be’ writers, please continue for as long as you are able.
And like an idiot I went there and checked it out. All the water in Sydney Harbour couldn’t wash away that experience.
Sorry Dan. At least I didn’t send you to Pickering’s page. It is enough to send you into counselling.
The thing that absolutely flabbergasts me is that the Prime Minister of our country is content to leave those comments (and far worse) on his facebook page for the world to see. Comments about the debt and deficit lies will be removed but racist rants and vilification of asylum seekers, scientists or those on welfare is proudly displayed.
I wonder if Nick Minchin is regretting his move to overthrow Turnbull and install the village idiot?
Also I just can’t believe I just read what Mary McIntosh and Jon. F.Edwards had to say. I am completely gobsmacked these attitudes exist today.
Oh no geoffreyengland, Minchin is overjoyed, Abbott is exactly the gormless leader he wants in power.
The Liberals talked about the faceless men in the backroom of the Labor Party, well Minchin is a far worse equivalent in the Liberal Party. Minchin was Howard’s power broker and along with select big business representatives the architect of WorkChoices. He was also the person who drafted WorkChoices MkII, a policy so draconian that Howard disowned it when a précis of it was leaked.
Read up on Minchin and what a nasty piece of underhanded work he is.
Nick Minchin has been well rewarded for his role in handing Tony the job.
Latest Labor email blast from Penny Wong:
I just noticed one of the ads on this page is titled “The pursuit of happiness – Conservatives can revolutionize how to serve those in need”. I guess it’s a step up from the ones that appeared after our ogling conversation Dan.
If you thought Mary McIntosh and Jon. F.Edwards were bad, you would have loved ol’ Harold Langford from the same discussion:
Going by the signature it could have been his wife offering those gems.
I bet, but I’m kinda naughty, I use an app to block ads. It’s almost as cool as the one that turns photos of Abbott into kittens.
“Demonising asylum seekers for political gain was a new low which began with John Howard and was gleefully taken up by Abbott.”
It started much earlier than Howard. Let’s not forget the earlier contributions of Hawke, labeling asylum seekers arriving by boat as ‘queue jumpers’ and Keating for first introducing mandatory detention and then removing the time limit that a person could be held in detention.
Good point allen. I was focusing on Tampa as a watershed moment but the groundwork was laid earlier, as you point out.
Thank you once again, Kaye Lee, for your devoted writing. I used to go to Abbott’s FB page and try to educate them. I was eventually banned for posting facts, and i confess I was rather relieved; the postings were seriously getting to me. Now, when people say we are exaggerating by talking of Nazism, I remember the vileness of some of those posters, and I do not believe we are. If these people are in fact minus many brain cells, are Abbott and his gang responsible for totally corrupting them? i think that in a higher court they may well be judged in this way. Hatred destroys the hater. People who can write such things are pretty much non-humans.
“I often hear people say that respect is earned – I disagree. One should always start from a position of respect – contempt is earned.” Grand writing …. and a very memorable quote I say …. please keep up the good work ….
I do not think I will ever understand why those who support offering up Australia to refugees do not understand the lure it creates for economic refugees and the ramifications in terms of deaths by boat or by people having to remain for long periods in camps.
I do not believe the bulk of the present stories in relation to Sri Lanka. The world has changed, modern communications and do-gooders seeking personal glory, mean that such stories must be treated as stories rather than the truth.
“We Will Teach You a Lesson”
Sexual Violence against Tamils by Sri Lankan Security Forces
February 26, 2013
The 140-page report provides detailed accounts of 75 cases of alleged rape and sexual abuse that occurred from 2006-2012 in both official and secret detention centers throughout Sri Lanka. In the cases documented by Human Rights Watch, men and women reported being raped on multiple days, often by several people, with the army, police, and pro-government paramilitary groups frequently participating.
“The Sri Lankan authorities should urgently investigate recent deadly violence against minority Muslim communities, Human Rights Watch said today. The violence, which began on June 15, 2014, after a rally led by the ultranationalist Buddhist Bodhu Bala Sena (BBS) organization, left at least four Muslims dead, 80 injured, and numerous homes and businesses destroyed in the town of Aluthgama and surrounding areas.”
But of course….they could all be wrong and YOU could be right jimhaz.
And just to underline the point of this article, I had an exchange with a woman on Andrew Laming’s facebook page. She said:
Bronny Hope: Oh for god’s sake. Australians pay good money to visit the very places these people come from, as tourists! Do you see anyone going for tips to Iran or Afghanistan or Sudan? These Sri Lankans are not ‘refugees’. They are a majority ethnic group who ostensibly live in a democracy. In many ways, Sri Lanka is more advanced than Australia. For example unlike this country, they receive free education – at all levels I believe. There are high levels of literacy throughout the country. World Bank funding and Chinese investment had seen stiff investment in infrastructure. The country recently pitched for the Olympic Games… Why should this be ‘Australia’s Shame’?
I showed her the same links I just showed you. Her response…..
Bronny Hope: There are more than 2.3 million ethnic Tamils in Sri Lanka. These are not compelling statistics to me.
Kaye Lee: Oh….so 75 people being raped by the authorities in recent times is not “statistically significant” to you? Four dead Muslims and 80 injured in sectarian riots are no reason to be concerned…there’s billions of them…right? Bronny….seriously…read what you just wrote.
I would like to know when doing good became a reason for derision. Perhaps you can enlighten me jimhaz. I will proudly aspire to the label of do-gooder
Kaye, why engage in “debate” with these neanderthals? They will annoy, anger and frustrate you but you can never win. On your behalf I urge them all to piss off. I taught low lifes just like these for 37 years and finally realised that they are a product of the combined forces of genes and upbringing. Nothing I could ever do would make them civilised humans. Their sefishness and small-mindedness is all consuming. They are beneath contempt.
There are references in the Old Testament (applicable to Jews as well as Christians) to treating the alien ( no,not ET’s) as one of your own. Poor comment on Scott and co.’s behaviour to their families!
Kaye Lee, because of Google’s algorithms each person sees different ads. The ad re Conservatives might have appeared on your computer because you probably might have been Googling them to help write your post. 🙂
I can assure you that I did not google anything conservative. They must have responded to my wish for everyone to just be happy 🙂 But I will be careful not to mention b-o-o-b-s again.
Thank you, Kaye Lee. We are fighting disgraceful propaganda and lies aimed at the unwitting and less informed. It is a hard fight but one we shall overcome with the help of those such as yourself. Education is all.
THAT would explain the ads for Lithuanian ladyboy bikies I’ve been seeing!!!!
Laughing here, Kaye! I have to say I found a program that removes ads on Facebook, and the peace and quiet – mentally speaking – is bliss. Being of a certain age, the ads trained on me were mostly for wheelchairs, continence products, and awful old lady sneakers, etc. I don’t intend to need any of that before the age of 100.
lolololol now THAT made me spit my drink. I am now going to indulge in self-analysis based on the ads. This could be either enlightening or damning….or both 😉
My Facebook ads are for retirement homes or funeral plans. 🙁
Don’t give the admakers too much credit Kaye! It’s tempting to put some special keywords in….
Hey, I kept getting a lot of ads for the Liberal Party on Facebook, so I don’t know what I’ve done to deserve that!
On another note, I found this interesting reading.
“What happened when I went to pick up food stamps in my Mercedes”
In The Living Years
I am quickly coming to a position on religion, not only is it delusional but it must take the cake for being the most “evil” practice that human beings participate in. It matters not what religion one happens to belong to, they all preach “that our’s is the only religion that communicates directly with God/Allah etc” and people who allow themselves to be brainwashed into these cults become fanatical enough to murder others who think differently to themselves – to me complete idiocy
While cracking open the door of racial politics, Nick Minchin has another protege whose actions are not taken with the gravity and scrutiny they deserve. Cory Bernardi and his Menzies House, openly racist, inviting racists internationally to give speeches to the hate filled faithful yet he goes largely unnoticed.
I can hear the response (he is an idiot no one takes him seriously) Cory is still taken very seriously by the Liberal Party, his fervent followers spewing racist bile and conspiracy (he accused Bob Brown of being head of the new world order in Australia)
A nutter, perhaps but conspiracy works, in a survey after 911 half of new yorkers believed 911 was an inside job. Cory has jumped onto recruiting via methods that are as awful as they are powerful and fully sanctioned by the Liberal Party.
If Labor had a racist foundation like Menzies House it would be splashed all over the papers, yet Cory goes under the radar. Of course Nick Minchin says global warming is a conspiracy, there are studies to back that labelling something a conspiracy is a powerful way to oppose it.
we talk about 18c yet ignore that Menzies House is in America so it can avoid our racial discrimination laws.
A senator whose actions openly flout australian law every single day yet he goes under the radar.
Why is all I ask?
I would like to support the comments of James Cook in their entirety.
If we’re talking about the same Menzies House – http://www.menzieshouse.com.au/ – it’s interesting that they deny any real connection to Bernardi:
Are you affiliated with the Liberal Party and/or Cory Bernardi?
No. Menzies House has no affiliations with the Liberal Party. Senator Bernardi was one of many donors who contributed to to our founding, however we have no connection to him or his office beyond this.
That sounds suspiciously like most liberal Party statements – full of lies of omission. “Under the radar” is probably exactly how he is affiliated with Menzies House.
South Australian Cory Bernardi admitted to The Australian he had provided web hosting and a domain name for a new political website, menzieshouse.com.au.
Senator Bernardi insisted he would be “absolutely removed” from editorial decisions. “I thought this was an excellent idea because there is not a single area on the internet . . . where those who are Liberal supporters can gather, debate, discuss. I’ve been dealing with the editors but it’s all their baby now.”
But one of those editors is a member of Senator Bernardi’s own staff, Chris Browne. Another is Tim Andrews, the former president of the Australian Liberal Students Association, a grouping that traditionally backs the party’s Right.
Senator Bernardi told The Australian he had emailed his parliamentary colleagues last week to promote the site and ask for contributions.
One cannot help but be struck by the sheer idiocy of this statement by Bernardi:
Hard to imagine a statement dumber than that.
If doing good for others and advocating for myself, my family and my friends makes me a socialist, a leftie, than so be it, I’ll wear the title with pride.
I’d be more than content to live up to the title of ‘do-gooder’. If I earn that one, I’ll wear it with an unreserved swagger in my stride.
O yes. He fits the model as if it was made for him. Stupidity, thy name is Liberal.
It will be a wonderful day when the combination of irrationalism and personal dishonesty displayed by the likes of ‘Saint Bernardi’ renders them to be deemed generally unfit for electoral office, let alone designated the role of chairing estimates committees and other senior functions.
He is a rabid, shifty nutjob whose acceptance into mainstream government should concern all who are right in the head and true in the heart.
The Liberal Party have pushed so hard to get Labor to distance themselves from the unions yet this hate filled Menzies house should have suffered an immediate death. They had an attempt early on to get Geert Wilders to come to Australia, and even when he finally came out it barely rated a mention. I have read as a defence that journalists have ignored the issue to in effect help it go away yet Menzies House enjoys support and ticks along waiting for the next opportune moment to gain more supporters. Had Labor or the unions started something even remotely like Menzies House the backlash would have been enormous. A racist support group for the Liberal party and Australia just ignores it as a whole. I fully expected Kerry O’brien by now to have done something on four corners about it purely because of the ramifications or racial politics being sanctioned by starting a foundation, but never a peep.
And Family First multi-millionaire Bob Day (who also gave Family First $2.6 million when he joined them after failing to win Liberal pre-selection) wants to get rid of the minimum wage and unfair dismissal laws. On climate change he says….
Mr Day says he’s opposed to any attempt to tax carbon dioxide.
“There’s a lot more to climate than CO2,” he said.
“We think it’s an absolute total waste of money, this direct action.
“For any kind of action for Australia to try to affect or take action on the world’s climate is just ludicrous.”
Family First are a ramshackle collection of evangelist cults from the USA, such as the assembly of god, who under different names hillsong, Calvary etc sell hope and fear to thousands of their programmed robots who will vote any way they are instructed to do so. These charlatans conduct a business without overheads, pay no tax, and collect 10% of their “fools” pay packets every week, unbeatable if they continue to get away with such a scam. the attitude on minimum wages and industrial law comes directly from their USA base Tea Party movement, I understand that the yanks own a lot of Australia, but I had never know them to own our brains before.
Bob Day can only push the Libs further right, we all I think are shocked that he makes the Libs look like moderates. Helmet head cant open his mouth without dragging conversation into ultra right wing territory either.
Bob Day appears to be losing his direction. He is threatening, with Leyonhjelm, to vote against the carbon tax repeal, because of the amendments that seek to protect Australian people. This makes him more supportive of big business than families. Chaos… I hope these two idiots do vote against the carbon price; it would not pass. Then, this government will have lost every shred of credibility it ever had with voters. And a DD would surely be the only way out.
Sorry Kaye, while I grant you there was significant abuse in the period after the ceasefire, for me there is not enough independent evidence of present widespread and systematic abuse. There have always been post war abuses – particularly where the losers sought to create a separate State.
In any case I do not think we would send back those who could prove, or convince circumstantially, torture or rape in the last 2-3 years. The case by case circumstance of acceptance or rejection is something we have never known, not just under Morrison.
Though what we could get a grasp on, prior to Morrison, was whether they appeared to be boatloads of mainly young men, or mixed groups including families.
I maintain the right to determine my own value system, my own level of selfishness.
I believe Australia has had excessive immigration and it has changed our culture negatively. I think it may be one of the underlying causes of our polarism, boganism and the hard core right nature of Australia now.
Everything is interconnected, and the high levels of immigration over the last 15 years means we just do not wish to benevolent in offering up our country to level above the quite reasonable ones of 20-30 thousand refugees we take at present.
There are too many suburbs that just do not feel Australian anymore. There are too many arrogant Muslims or criminals from war torn countries; too many people lacking modern values, including manners; too much in government expenditure going to migrant support; rental costs are forcing us further away from where we once lived and worked; communication is more frustrating; standards are dropping, including educational standards.
There is also the really big issue of human population control – high immigration levels simply feed this virus.
Now though I know high immigration is a factor, what I do not know if that pales into insignificance when it comes to the issue of what technology is doing to our interrelationships. Technological improvement, most noticeable in the area of communication media, undoubtedly makes us more self-centred.
In me that selfishness manifests in two ways – I believe a rich country like
Australia should not diminish it’s cultural self by quantity, but use that wealth to improve itself by quality. In doing so we would half immigration, but be able to increase OS Aid considerably. I want this wealth to be used to shine the way for other countries to shift to capitalism that does not require population (market) growth to not fall apart, but to shift to quality products and solutions that enable sustainability.
So I’m an elitist – just not a conservative based one, but a socialist one. I just limit my primary domain of care to Australia. Many non-polarised Australians are like this. Your views on how to deal with refugees is a polarised one – and as is the case for all the most polarised it is a fundamentalists view, and as it happens all fundamentalists views are logically unsound.
Your statement was a Bush-like one, a tyrants comment – You are Either With Me or Against Me – and all that will be counted is this one issue.
The 3 little Farqueson boys driven into water and left to drown by their father in a car.
Darcy Lee Freeman, thrown to her death from West gate bridge by her father in front of her little brothers.
Luke Batty clubbed to death in front of his mother and others by his father with a cricket bat
Jill Meagher raped and murdered her body dumped on the side of a country road to decompose
And there are plenty more sad cases in this country, committed by white Christian men
All these heinous crimes were committed by white Anglo Saxon Australian men, you have no argument Jimhaz, if you want to deal in death,knock yourself out but don’t come and spruik it on here, you are doing yourself no good 🙂
” level above the quite reasonable ones of 20-30 thousand refugees we take at present. ”
The total number of people entering under Australia’s humanitarian program remains 13,750 for the foreseeable future, with no increase whatsoever.
This is in stark contrast to what occurred in 2012-13, where the ALP government actually did increase the number of people, to 20,000 per year
Given our depressed economy the figure of 13,750 seems reasonable to me, provided that they are extensively screened, I continue to be concerned about home grown terrorism. That’s only my humble opinion though.
[All these heinous crimes were committed by white Anglo Saxon Australian men, you have no argument Jimhaz, if you want to deal in death,knock yourself out but don’t come and spruik it on here, you are doing yourself no good ]
All local issues – at least two of which were bogan related (Batty, Meagher).
I don’t want to deal with death (although I would be prepared to murder someone like Kim Jong-un).
In fact, if any group should be morally charged with the manslaughter of 500 people, it is the refugee support crowd. There is a demonstrated casual link between the loosening of policies under the ALP and attempts to arrive by boat.
I don’t wish any group any harm of the kind that does not lead to an improvement in their life. I just do not see us as being responsible in any way for the stupidity of man in the rest of the world, when we cannot even resolve our own stupidity. The left will never win on the refugee issue – is it 30k, 50k 100k 1m ??? – and because of the harping about this issue they do not get widespread traction on the other issues such as the control of politics by the rich. Win that war first then you might have a chance with more aid.
I am not convinced that allowing 1000’s of Sri Lankan refugees would do anything to improve their home country (if the Tamils were prepared to think of it that way – remember they wanted their own state). Might it not be better that they stayed and over time their actions of complaint against mistreatment would result in a fairer society, benefiting future generations. We see what becomes of societies that are not secular, and whom cause minorities to flee – they all become excessively authoritarian.
Look, lets say something happened in NKorea which lead to an exodus – I’d be happy to take an additional 30k for 2-3 years. Still I’d rather see the world moved to educational aid (temporary sponsorships rather than migration) coupled with small business loans aid, rather than aid via allowing increasing refugees numbers.
Anita Cobby tortured to death by 5 young Australian white men, I am not interested in your figures, I am concerned about the crimes inflicted on the vulnerable and young in this country and for years and years, since we landed here and started killing off the first peoples of this land, Jimhaz maybe focus on our white criminals first yep and getting justice for all those victims and their families, have a great day Jimhaz, it will be last time I converse with you on here 🙂
Will you concede the point that what happened to the Jews in the 30-40s was in part due to the fact of no nation being willing to take them as refugees? Would you also concede the point that there was exactly no chance of those Jews being able to “civilise” their persecutors generationally?
Totally fine with that.
People will always only listen to what they wish to hear, or what fits their current world view, so much discussion with highly emotional people is pointless or even negative as it tends to polarise existing viewpoints.
This is not the Left National Times though, to be truly independent it needs to cater for varied opinions, particularly ones that are moderate or commonly held in the wider community (not so much the far right) as my views on the refugee issue are, or it will just become a church for the already converted.
Was that a response to my questions? It didn’t seem like one. Anyway, I have no real issue with your “elitism” or “charity begins at home” type of view, nor with your suspicion of Muslims – which I ostensibly share. I’m just trying to get my head around the implications of your view and determine how clear you are about those same implications.
A solution to refugee issues that does not involve taking them in is my preference, but I can’t get to a place where it’s workable.
[Will you concede the point that what happened to the Jews in the 30-40s was in part due to the fact of no nation being willing to take them as refugees? ]
Yes. Strong racism against Jews was worldwide. Neighbouring countries took some, but then they were taken over. Some countries like the US took some after the war.
[Would you also concede the point that there was exactly no chance of those Jews being able to “civilise” their persecutors generationally?]
Yes….and in some ways it is evident modern Jews are still acting to civilise potential persecutors (just look at the treatment of Gibson)
I don’t think the comparison is close enough – too many things are contextually different.
btw…I’m here by coincidence, not following you, even though I do admire your communication and thinking skills. A link in the SMH led me here.
Is this GF Jimbo jimhaz? If so, holy shit and how goes it?
One of the problems I see with our disposition to Sri Lanka, specifically, is in our support for a nation that is actively oppressing its citizens. It’s illegal to flee the country? What the hell? We give them 2 gunboats to help stop people leaving? That’s the equivalent of giving 2 tanks to East Germany of the 1950s. We are basically aiding a Soviet style regime. I think that’s pretty problematic.
I agree that prevention is better than cure re the refugee problem. That would entail us recognising our responsibility to lift living standards in the rest of the world. I read some time ago that 16% of the world’s population used 80% of its resources. We have also heard the statistics where a handful of people control as much wealth as the billions in the bottom 50% of the population. Address this inequity by providing foreign aid, assisting with health, education, clean water, shelter. Stop wars and human rights abuses. Act on climate change.
But we are too selfish to do that…and then we wonder why there are refugees or why they might try to come here for a better life. Why do we deserve a better life purely through the luck of where we were born? How can we deny this opportunity to others?
I think most people would prefer to stay in their own countries with their family and friends if they could practise their own culture and religion in safety. Stop religious intolerance and ethnic violence.
And America? And Australia? And Britain? What’s their excuse for blowing stuff up impunity? What’s their excuse for messing in things best left alone? Where’s the religious intolerance there? Unless, of course, some powerful people see capitalism as a religion?
[Is this GF Jimbo jimhaz? If so, holy shit and how goes it?]
Yep – I thought you might recognise my arrogant style. I’m probably as nihilistic and as much an observer, rather than a doer, as ever – hence my blatant lack of desire to support people here whom are attempting to decrease current suffering of asylum seekers.
I’ve probably given up on humanity – too much avoidable insanity, too many countries going through civil turmoils the west has already been through. I just do not want to become an erg for the rich, hence my support for most of the other points raised on this site.
Hope your health ain’t too bad. My slightly older (18 months) brother just had stents, and I’m wondering if I’ll be knocked off out of the blue or have a chance to have an op 🙂
[One of the problems I see with our disposition to Sri Lanka, specifically, is in our support for a nation that is actively oppressing its citizens. It’s illegal to flee the country? What the hell? We give them 2 gunboats to help stop people leaving? We are basically aiding a Soviet style regime. I think that’s pretty problematic]
Yes, giving them gunboats was not something I supported, though maybe I was non-plussed (if smuggling operations are in play there the gift might actually save lives rather than being used to contain innocents).
I don’t support Morrison’s Nazi ways of doing things – just the overall policy of making us non-attractive as a first preference place to seek asylum, including turning the boats from Indonesia back (as often it is Ind gov employees involved in the smuggling).
I do not spend much time researching, but I don’t think that Sri Lankan authorities are that extreme – post-2009 I’m only seeing pockets of post-war vengefulness and war induced poverty, particularly against those who have not quite given up on the Tamil’s desired outcomes. I have a feeling some are thinking – well if we cant win here, might as well try somewhere else – the Tamils seem to have a bit of the gypsy attitude in them).
I probably think too many of these folk are actually economic refugees – because were I in the same circumstances of poverty and lack of opportunity I’d want to give it a go myself. I think nowadays people see on TV how mainly peaceful and rich Western lives are, and are not genuine refugees (other than some groups of Christians fleeing some middle eastern or African countries) and this creates a massive lure to induce them to take the risk. It was not the same for the WW2 and Vietnamese, Cambodians who fled or had too high a chance of being mutilated or killed – they were running for their physical lives, not their material or philosophical ones.
There excuse is greed and power, religion is not the precursor for all wars, they brought Gadaffi back into the loop after years of isolation because the poms needed the oil, they all lined up and met him at his regal tent, so did the Yanks, and look how that ended for them, got rid of Gadaffi when it suited them, but is the country better off, nooooo,
[Was that a response to my questions? It didn’t seem like one]
No sorry, it was a response to Dan Dark’s comment, which was last on the list when I was writing the comment.
I suspected it might be you but I didn’t want to say anything and look like a goose if it wasn’t. Good to see you. re: my health – post stroke I have altered sensation crap throughout the left hemisphere of my body, which is pretty shitful. Still, could be worse. Luckily I’ve got all that non-attachment to fall back on. 🙂 Get your blood pressure checked regularly. It’s a really smart thing to do.
It was quite an extraordinary act for our Government to supply military boats to Sri Lanka for the express purpose of stop its citizens from leaving. It’s not a terribly good look. I mean, the Tamils we just send back are all headed for jail.
I agree that the situation regarding the Tamils is complex. There’s no doubt that a proportion of their “refugees” are economic. Funny though that in a different time and place we actually had quite a lot or regard for people coming to the “West” so as to find a better life for themselves. Still, even if some are only economic refugees the fact remains that not all of them are and those that aren’t really are fleeing threats to their life and liberty. If you could be bothered doing the research you’ll find there’s still a major problem for many Tamils. Or, you could just believe me since you know I’d never lie to you.
I’m all for helping “transit” nations take these people on. But as I’ve noted before almost all of the transit countries we have to deal with are pretty horrible and mostly not signatories to the Refugee Convention, which basically means that don’t have any obligation to treat refugees fairly. That makes it tricky.
It does strike me as kind of pathetic that Australia wants to be the one nation in the world that won’t do its part. We expect and encourage nations much poorer than ourselves and far less equipped to handle the logistics, to do what we refuse to do.
Dan, I believe that the only way to help refugees is to help them by contributing to infrastructure in their own country, unfortunately Abbott is trying to sell a budget emergency (which does not exist) at the moment so has cut overseas aid. In my humble view these countries need to design accountable projects that western governments can all contribute into making reality, they must be accountable projects though, many of the very governments in the areas I refer to are corrupt through and through so unless the funding can be tracked, the people never see the benefits.
[I’m just trying to get my head around the implications of your view and determine how clear you are about those same implications. A solution to refugee issues that does not involve taking them in is my preference, but I can’t get to a place where it’s workable]
Nor can I. I’m not that clear minded (lol, never have been) – too much gut feeling involved, probably too much biasedness against young muslim men, too many personal irritations in working in a heavy newish migrant area, too grumpy as I age.
Playing God by trying to predict the future is a difficult game – on longer term contextual time planes I might be right, but it is so complex an issue on the longer term outcome desired might fall apart – making the short term cruelty involved pointless and thus wrong.
I just think we have seen in the Middle East that beneficial changes must arise from within developing countries, or it will crumble into authoritarian rule – so the brain drain of those with more intellectual sophistication is harming these countries.
My current view is that we need far more distribution of wealth in Australia, which should make us kinder to each other, more generous, and decrease the need for high immigration enabling a stable population. My economic theory is that distribution is the way to increase consumption and to create jobs via the multiplier effect – from which more wealth would flow than from it being held by a few and used as monopoly money.
In terms of the increased consumption, yes that is an issue for sustainability, but so long as vested interests are not dictating where money goes to, as they do now, then individuals will be induced to develop sustainable consumption technologies and systems. With better income/wealth distribution I see us all individually having more wealth not less, leaving excess resources for aid. Perhaps this is naïve, but I’d like to see us sponsor here in Australia a 4-5 billion dollar trade related, small business, justice, media, philosophy educational courses, with on campus living, where the people had to return to their country of origin or go into an asylum seeker camp after the course was completed.
For Muslim countries currently having internal fighting, I’d be conducting a verbal war. Instead of bombs l’d be dropping purpose built philosophical leaflets across the country, so that truly moderate Muslims, ie those that would be OK with a secular country, would see how they are being used and a core of dissidents against cretinous religious leaders, or authoritarian Sheikdomes, would arise from within.
[Funny though that in a different time and place we actually had quite a lot or regard for people coming to the “West” so as to find a better life for themselves]
That was before we had 25% of our population who were born overseas – close to the highest in the OECD. http://www.oecd.org/berlin/47570020.pdf
If immigration levels had of been more moderate over the last 15 years, say to 13% OS born like the US, I do speculate we would be more generous about refugee numbers (though we’d still have to stop the boats. The one trip nature of refugee boat trips mean the boats will always be rundown and dangerous).
[It does strike me as kind of pathetic that Australia wants to be the one nation in the world that won’t do its part. We expect and encourage nations much poorer than ourselves and far less equipped to handle the logistics, to do what we refuse to do]
Yes, I’d felt that hypocrisy myself. I shrug it off by saying the asylum seekers are already accustomed to poverty and unemployment. I also wonder just how do the middle eastern folk travel so far away from their homeland – it is by choice, and their choice is being affected by immigrant and refugee relations already here providing them the means and the desire. I suppose they seek the Muslim countries of Indonesia and Malaysia as a fallback option if things don’t go as planned – I believe Muslims cannot refuse asylum to other Muslims.
I felt the ALPs Malaysian solution wasn’t too bad as a small partial solution, it was certainly generous – but it got shut down. I’d like to see us try and find ways to process claims much quicker so that the camps stopped being prisons – so maybe the quick turnaround on the Sri Lankans is a benefit.
I also believe there is considerable and systematic price gouging on the detention centre contracts Australia has, meaning we can do far less per dollar than we should be able to. I also think some economic refugees are being taught what to say and to take legal action wherever possible by the bleeding heart section of our legally trained (I did once note they comprised around 30% of the review councils or something like that).
Anyway enough ranting from me for a few days.