29 comments

1. Kate MSeptember 10, 2015 at 7:48 pm

   Your article arrived in my Inbox in the nick of time!! I was sitting here wondering if it was cynical to think that the government probably would not have bothered increasing our refugee intake if Abbott hadn’t been so keen to announce that we were starting to bomb Syria this week. To make matters worse, I was wondering why we can’t prioritise looking after the refugees we already have in our care – actually scrap looking after, how about just treating them humanely and not torturing and abusing them – and thinking cynically that there were negative political points in this, that’ why…

   Luckily your article arrived. And I realised how very right I was……….

2. paul walterSeptember 10, 2015 at 8:09 pm

   The inoffensive Lee Sales is going to be the political death of Abbott.

   But since dinner, I have come across so much stuff that reads like satire and is commended as fair dinkum by its perpetrators- Warren Mundine on the Drum, for example.

   If ever an opportunity had presented itself for Abbott to break the gridlock as to Australia’s on going problem with asylum seekers, this was the time, yet the excuses for not at least dealing with Manus and Nauru issue forth as sloppy as the trots, as with the nonsenses over Xtians being prioritised.

   Jesus Christ would be turning in his grave at the nonsenses of Abbott and Abetz, supposed church goers both of them.

3. Mark NeedhamSeptember 10, 2015 at 8:27 pm

   A Queue.
   There is no Queue. I have been told, most succinctly, that there is no Queue, by others here.! You will be severely admonished by them for venturing to suggest such an idea.
   At least, I hope so, otherwise I will claim victimisation. So there.

   One of the great societal problems that is present here in Australia at the moment, is the Violence projected at women.

   I am sure, that we are going to import, a more substantive continuation of the very same problem, with the Syrian refugees. That the abuse of females, will happen here or in Syria, I suppose is irrelevant…no, that is not right.
   Of course it is relevant, as it will continue. Fortunately a disease that is not contagious, ( I hope).
   That there are some cultures, who treat women as a piece of property ( I was going to use a 4 letter word, staring with S and ending in T) But as the s..t word describes, that is exactly how females are treated by these cultures.

   The main reason, I raise this conundrum, is that a major obvious percentage of these refugees, that we are seeing on the media, are male.
   A link to the problem that refugees face was posted on another Article, here on AIM Network. One particular photo had a comment below,
   “Some of the men who managed to get on the bus ended up leaving their wives and children behind.”
   That these men, are absolute ars……s, would crawl over a dead childs body, without a ……….. They ( the men) do not care. they are a heartless, coldblooded excuse for a human being.

   Now, here is the Racist bit.
   I do not want one of these men, living in a house near me.
   If this, is what makes me a Racist, then I will proudly wear that tag.

   Wondering, ( where the hell world is going)
   Mark Needham

4. keertiSeptember 10, 2015 at 8:45 pm

   interesting rant, mark. I drove buses in Perth for a few years. As you might imagine we picked all sorts. The worst were what we referred to as australian white trash. Their treatment and abuse of anybody was legendary, particularly women. Occassionally, I’d have people from the middle east (that’s places like Syria, Iraq etc, mark). The friendliness and respect that both women and men treated each other was outstanding. Australia could do with less of the riff raff and more of the courageous refugees!

5. Annie BSeptember 10, 2015 at 8:51 pm

   @Rossleigh –

   For a moment or three, I had to wonder whether you were actually being cynical or not. … In fact I re-read your article three times ( as always good – and much food for thought ) … before deciding !! 🙂

   Nope, nope, nope – you are not having a big ‘go’ at Leigh Sales. … In fact the bully on the other end of the video link ( whatever ! ) … tried to talk/bully her down, until – bless her heart, she outright laughed in his face.

   Now, I am not the hugest fan of Leigh Sales … or wasn’t. …. but when any anchor is confronted with a drone who drones on and on and on about what he ( thinks ) he has achieved, based on lies, it becomes confronting. – – Ms. Sales did not fall for it – not one bit.

   She asked, ( when she could get a word in ) and he answered. …. With the same bloody monotonous garbage he’s been spouting for months. … Which amounts to exactly nothing / zilch / zero – for Australia, for our economy, our standing in the world, our ability and desire to help those who are less fortunate, and our security, safety and overall sense of pride in our country. …. Interspersed with a fair amount of lip licking, he spouted the same mantras he’s been rabbitting on about for 24 months – with nothing to show in terms of actual achievement – for the good of our country.

   But then, I needn’t have wasted typing time to say THAT.

   He doesn’t give a flying eff, about anything except himself, his prestigious ( it was, once ) position as Prime Minister, and his own brutal endeavours.

   I could almost feel sorry for the rabbutt …. he has many psych. problems – and should not be in leadership in ANY country, let alone ours. … That’s ‘almost’ but … I dare not fall for it.

   And I am NOT being cynical.

6. Steve LaingSeptember 10, 2015 at 8:54 pm

   Of course the “most persecuted” is just doublespeak for “Christians”. Because, as I tweeted yesterday, surely the most persecuted in a Muslim community would be the heretics and apostates. So its nice to know that the first Syrians to arrive will be atheists and the LGBTI community… which I don’t think was the Liberals plan…

   But I too am not for being lectured by the lazy journo’s of Fairfax. They were part of the establishment that gave this rabble a free pass into power, but now refuse to put them to the sword as they deserve. I suspect that the veiled (and not so veiled) threats against them, and the ABC, puts their careers under threat. And given the only other major employer is really Mr Mudrake, those poor journo folk have been getting cold feet.

7. Annie BSeptember 10, 2015 at 9:06 pm

   @ Mark Needham

   I saw on TV news this evening, reference to men escaping – … and leaving women and children behind in war-torn Syria.

   It struck me heavily. … Why wouldn’t they want to take their families with them ? Are they only looking after their own skins – which fits in with what you have said. … Women ( and children ) are not so important over there. ??

   ……………

   On the other hand, keerti has shown the other face to this. … the friendliness and respect shown by both genders of middle eastern origin, towards one another. …. Perhaps the ‘white trash’ ( and we do have lots of them ) could learn something from these people. … There is of course, another scenario going on here – that being that refugees / immigrants – in a new country, will try very hard to behave themselves – initially. … I do not lump the entire middle eastern immigrants into that … just a few ultimately will turn and show their dark side.

   Does that make them any different to the white trash that show their dark side on a daily basis by bashing the daylights out of wife and children ? …. No, it doesn’t – but my point is, that domestic violence is not concentrated to any one ethnicity, religion, race or colour.

   Got sidetracked on that. …

   Remains to be answered, why MEN are leaving the war torn areas, and leaving families behind. ?

   I sincerely hope …. that someone / anyone, can prove me ( and Mark Needham ) wrong about this.

8. jimSeptember 10, 2015 at 9:43 pm

   Confronts abbott aboot walks away with tail between his legs as it is, watch, 3minutes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDLAUmqp8f4

9. Matters NotSeptember 10, 2015 at 9:55 pm

   Warren Mundine on the Drum, for example

   Yes, he was pathetic, and at so many levels. One wonders how the ALP made him their National President, given his clear intellectual limitations, so clearly on display tonight. But then again, the ALP … is like that.

   BTW, Mundine is a ‘man of commitment’, and he has/had three wives to affirm that, even though he is/was a Catholic.

   I suspect he’s a closet Muslim. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

   But Warren would probably disagree.

10. eli nesSeptember 10, 2015 at 10:55 pm

    dear AnnieB,
    In context with your post, I have offended my pro-asylum seeker friends with my assertions on, christian and muslim men’s beliefs about and treatment of, women. :
    The photographs at the start of the migration from Syria showed clearly the asylum seekers were overwhelmingly men.
    Now they put a hooded women on australian TV to plead the muslim case against our christian pollies taking christians and the photos from Europe are being selected to show women and children.
    It doesn’t change the fact that those escaping are mostly men (muslim and christian) who leave their women behind. When asked they blithely announce where they would like to go and sometimes where they don’t.
    Arrogance negates pity????

11. mmc1949September 10, 2015 at 11:32 pm

    Jim – with all that could legitimately be said to Abbott about his innumerable faults, it’s a pity you pointed us to an anti-semitic rant.

12. Matters NotSeptember 10, 2015 at 11:39 pm

    MEN are leaving the war torn areas, and leaving families behind

    Yes, generally speaking, there are more ‘men’ on the move in the Middle East than there are women. (That’s a ‘fact’). But has it ever been otherwise? Has there ever been a time in history that women moved (migrated of their own accord) in greater numbers than the men because of impending disaster? If so, then please advise.

    At the most basic level, one should point out, it’s because men are more able, physically at least. (I admit I am ‘postulating’).

    Further, I suspect that most of these ‘people’ on the move’, (but certainly not all) are adherents to Islam. Islam is not about the equal treatment of women, as perceived in Western terms. It’s all about the unequal/different treatment of men and women.

    Nothing new in that, at least for the locals. Women in western cultures know all about that unequal treatment.

    Over the centuries, the ‘myth making’ nonsense has usually been a male prerogative. Take the western Churches as an example. No female ‘Popes’. Further, the current most powerful nation on earth has never had a female President.

    While one could go on

13. gangey1959September 11, 2015 at 2:58 am

    Kris Kristofferson’s song “Jesus was a Capricorn” ends its first verse with “Reckon we’d just nail him up if he comes down again.”
    How very true. I mean, JC might just try and tell all of the warmongering bastards at mission control that He wasn’t talking about any and all manufacturers of dairy products at all, when He said “Blessed are the meek” and “Do unto others..” that is exactly what He meant.
    It had caught my attention already that a massive %age of the ‘new’ refugees are men. Sorry, male. Men don’t abandon or mistreat their families.
    It has also caught my eye that most of the isis and whoever else fighters are male too. Are we in fact allowing 12000 of the wrong people into Australia ? Should we in fact be concentrating on and assisting the ones left behind ?
    Then it dawned on me. Our moron of a pm and his minions are going to light the blue touch-paper as soon as he can get a light off jojo and blow the shit out of them before they become another problem.
    I get it now.
    It all just seems a little bit half-arsed. Or is that half-witted ?

14. Kaye LeeSeptember 11, 2015 at 6:52 am

    Mark,

    Yes we have a domestic violence problem in this country and sexism is alive and well but blaming it on refugees is an absolute copout.

    In Australia, domestic, family and sexual violence is widespread across all cultures, ages and socio-economic groups and the majority of those who experience these forms of violence are women. Exposure to child abuse or violence as a child, alcohol or drug dependency issues, financial or personal stress and lack of social support are all strong correlates of violence against women.

    As for Syria….

    In 1963 the Ba’th Party took power in Syria, and pledged full equality between women and men as well as full workforce participation for women.

    In 1967 Syrian women formed a quasi-governmental organization called the General Union of Syrian Women (GUSW), a coalition of women’s welfare societies, educational associations, and voluntary councils intended to achieve equal opportunity for women in Syria.

    In 1989 the Syrian government passed a law requiring factories and public institutions to provide on-site childcare.

    In Syrian universities, women and men attend the same classes. Between 1970 and the late 1990s, the female population in schools dramatically increased – 95 women for every 100 men. This increase included the early school years, along with the upper level schools such as universities.

    I don’t think you can know any Muslims Mark. You are unnecessarily afraid.

15. M-RSeptember 11, 2015 at 7:54 am

    Excellent post. Your best.

16. mars08September 11, 2015 at 7:55 am

    Most of Syria, like Iraq…. was (for that region) an advanced, secular, liberal country. But that was before we started arming and supporting the jihadist groups opposed to the Assad government.

17. Kaye LeeSeptember 11, 2015 at 8:09 am

    Putting cynicism aside is impossible.

    Judge Street was appointed to the Federal Circuit Court in late December last year by Commonwealth Attorney-General George Brandis.

    Between January and June this year, he delivered rulings in 286 cases. The other eight judges who sit on the Federal Circuit Court in Sydney delivered 357 cases combined.

    Of 254 rulings delivered, Judge Street rejected migration appeals in 252 cases.

    Judge Street has been the subject of pointed criticism in two successful appeals of his decisions in the Full Federal Court in which the judge was found to have denied litigants procedural fairness.

    The Full Federal Court took a dim view of the judge’s approach when it ruled the case should go back before a different judge to be re-heard in the Federal Circuit Court.

    “Serious issues relating to the procedural fairness of proceedings must arise in circumstances such as the present, in which an unrepresented applicant whose primary language is not English … is called on, without notice, to mount arguments resisting the summary dismissal of his application,” judges Mansfield, Tracey and Mortimer said.

    “These circumstances, or ones similar to them, should not occur again.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-10/federal-court-judge-alexander-street-accused-of-bias/6764704

    A stacked judiciary added to the appointment of “Secretary” Pezullo, the recruitment of Border Force, and the renewal of contracts with the Transfield torturers, and a heartless Minister and it’s a full court press against asylum seekers led by our Navy.

    But Australia should be proud according to the Prime Monster.

18. Möbius EckoSeptember 11, 2015 at 8:09 am

    Kaye Lee that story on Syria is very similar to that of Iraq. At one stage Saddam’s Iraq had the most advanced tertiary education system in the region. Women were in government as were Christians. Then the West interfered.

19. Kaye LeeSeptember 11, 2015 at 8:18 am

    Afghanistan did well for a brief period too during the communist regime of the 70s and 80s – well at least some women did. Most still lived in poverty but at least some women were able to hold jobs as scientists, teachers, doctors, and civil servants and had a considerable amount of freedom with significant educational opportunities. The Taliban put pay to that and interference hasn’t helped.

20. Matters NotSeptember 11, 2015 at 10:02 am

    In attempting to understand why people ‘behave’ as they do, broadly defined, we should be careful to draw a distinction between the ‘forces’ in play. Most people in Australia (and elsewhere) believe that the Quran requires women to wear the ‘veil’ – whether it’s a hijab (headscarf), niqab (face veil) or burqa (full veil, where even the eyes are hidden).

    Yet, all the Quaran requires is that people dress ‘modestly’ and that requirement applies to both women AND men.

    The ‘veil’ and its variations were very much in existence before the 7th century when the Quran was penned. The wearing of the ‘veil’ is not down to Islam but to historical, cultural practices which can, and do, change over time.

    For example, Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey (98% Muslim), banned to wearing of the ‘veil’ in the public service in 1923 (rescinded 2013) and in Universities (rescinded 2011). The law was changed on the grounds that it interfered with ‘freedom’.

21. guestSeptember 11, 2015 at 11:21 am

    I find it difficult to accept the kind of rant which sets out to vilify a large group of people with the same slur, when none of those people are known personally by the accuser. The slur is too easily based on some stereotypical notion of the character of those people. My experience of Syrian people is extremely limited, but from watching tv I have seen that they are sophisticated, educated and compassionate people.

    As for the role of men, their role varies as it does in Oz society as father, brother, worker…and as such might mean leaving the family for a time. So we have people living apart with the hope of bringing the family together in better circumstances. We have men in Oz going to work in distant desert mines; in Syria, men going ahead to prepare for the eventual arrival of the family.

    But what do our loving, Christian leaders do? They say if you send men ahead of the family to Oz, the rest of the family cannot follow.

    What else does our government do? It says if they come by boat they will never be allowed into Oz. The government spends some USD 2100 million to lock them away (twice the UN budget for helping Syrian refugees). It will allow 12000 Syrians to come to Oz. At that rate it would take 8 years to fill the MCG. It has offered AUD 44 million to aid Syrian refugees, about the cost of one of those bombers to be used to bomb the country.

    How can anyone be proud of that kind of record. But we only have to remind ourselves about the adult leading the adults. We saw it on tv and we can read the transcript. It is undeniable: Abbott lives in a cloud of delusion.

22. Geoffrey EnglandSeptember 11, 2015 at 11:35 am

    My father migrated to Oz without my Mum and brother to get a job and find a home. Then we followed…. makes sense to me.

23. kizhmetSeptember 11, 2015 at 11:55 am

    @Guest – my sentiments exactly! All this self-congratulatory back slapping through the MSM – pffft.

    My family migrated from England in 1963. I have quite a few friends of European heritage whose fathers migrated here and worked on the Warragambah Dam Project. The rest of their famiies stayed in Europe for several years and migrated when their dad had saved enough, found a home and was able to bring them over.

24. mars08September 11, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    Rather than relying on, and perpetuating the tired msm stereotypes of Middle Eastern societies, why not read the opinions of some middle- class people who actually live there?

    http://tabsir.net …. http://arabist.net/

25. Mark NeedhamSeptember 11, 2015 at 1:10 pm

    ‘afternoon, Kaye Lee.
    No, not blaming it on refugees. Never said that.
    I am just disturbed by the fact, that those who are coming, have a lesser respect, than what we would/should expect from native Australians. Our local mob, (Us) can’t keep our fists, guns and machetes to themselves, that well, either.
    And mate, I have not met a Muslim person. Though I may have met someone from India or Pakistan, who was a Muslim, but I was unaware of the fact. Not knowing, I would have treated the person as anyone else. If I had known they were Muslim, I still would have interacted as required of the moment. I may not have been happy about it, but I would not get all uppity and start throwing a “wobbly” or such.

    Now, Persian, Lebanese, European Eastern Countries, Japanese, Chinese, French and a few others I have interacted with, as neighbours, at meals and friends. Was all good, no one tried to kill me, although they may have thought about it. ( My wife, often does)
    No, I don’t fear them, I am just not a great admirer of some of their culture. (ie, treatment of women)

    The Bus Trip. Leaving their children behind.
    So I can leave the Missus and Kids, in Melbourne, to walk to Cairns, where I am going on the bus, to prepare the way.
    In this particular instance, I think not.
    As some who have migrated, described the way they split for a period, is completely different. Mum and the kids, would have had means to be clothed, fed and housed, whilst Dad was in Australia, working, saving to prepare. All more Good on them, I say. Bloody Fantastic. Welcome to Australia.
    The bloke in the bus, (ME), nah, not really that welcome, hey! But that is in the nature of the beast, and that is the bit, that does not impress me.
    I would hope that you would feel much the same.

    At the end of the day, It is the Greedy, The Liar, The Skimmer, The Spinner and The Scammer of all cultures, hierarchy and peoples, that I have an intense Abhorrence and Dislike for.
    Cheers,
    Mark Needham
    PS. I loved my Dad. He was a good worker, an Honest man and a good provider. We were not rich, but we were always warm, loved, fed and a roof over our heads. We were educated and cared for and about.
    But I had no respect for him as a man, because of the violence that he had for mum, when yes, drunk.

    Life is a Conundrum, an Oxymoron of Mixed Emotions. Sort of like a Doctor of Theology. Just doesn’t seem quite right somehow.
    A Doctor of what…?
    for Christs sake……!

26. Kaye LeeSeptember 11, 2015 at 1:39 pm

    Mark,

    Listen to yourself…

    ” If I had known they were Muslim…… I may not have been happy about it”

    So they don’t have to do anything wrong for you to have a preconceived notion about them despite never knowingly having met a Muslim. You choose to believe things that you have heard and ascribe those actions to billions of people.

    Your racism is hard to break through because it is irrational. So let’s try another approach.

    From what I can gather, we will be targeting families. The cultural oppression of women is sometimes a result of lack of education. These girls will be educated in Australia. They will be given opportunities they may not have had before. When you empower women they are a formidable force. The people that are coming here are people fleeing from the sort of extremism that you want to believe all Muslims are party to. All they want is a safe place to live, work, and raise their family. Fanatical extremists would never choose to live in Australia because we have a secular state and our social practices may be offensive.

    Unlike you, I know quite a few Muslims. Some are practicing, some not. They are not any different to you or me. They might worship differently but then I find all worship a waste of time.

    You wrote a wonderful article asking for tolerance and decency. I ask for the same from you towards people who have done you no harm.

27. Mark NeedhamSeptember 11, 2015 at 7:06 pm

    Just a quick one, Kaye Lee.
    You are OK, with Female genital Mutilation, with the treatment of women and children in their culture/religion.? I know that you aren’t!

    Like my Dad, I was not fussed about him, as a man. How can you tell, if a particular person is a “Nice” bloke, just by talking etc. He is not going to say to you, “I beat my missus, last night”.
    Even the “getting on the bus” bit, makes me think a bit more. Reckon that is not “irrational”.

    and, Yes, I really don’t think, that all of the Syrian refugees are that honest. Why aren’t they trying to go to countries of their own ilk. Seems they are attracted to “Only Western Countries”

    and, You can guarantee Australians, that there are no fanatical extremists coming in to this country. I like you, Kaye Lee, but not sure that I can accept your OK on this, I’d like to, but…yes, but….!

    Give us a bit of slack here, I don’t think that I am completely in error here. Be great if I was, I hope that I am, we’ll see.
    Cheers,
    Mark Needham
    PS. You haven’t told Rossleigh that there are no queues. I was sure, you would chip him about it. (chuckle.)

28. Annie BSeptember 11, 2015 at 11:50 pm

    Kaye … ref. your comments :

    “As for Syria….

    In 1963 the Ba’th Party took power in Syria, and pledged full equality between women and men as well as full workforce participation for women.

    through to :

    In Syrian universities, women and men attend the same classes. Between 1970 and the late 1990s, the female population in schools dramatically increased – 95 women for every 100 men. This increase included the early school years, along with the upper level schools such as universities.

    What has happened since then ? …. well we know that Bashar-al-Assad took over as President in 2000, ( maybe a year or so after some progress had been made for women, [ or had been promised ], as per your comment above ) …. and we know the situation in Syria deteriorated even further from that point on.

    We also know that the biggest player of war games, have stuck their noses ( yet again ) into a civil war, this time in Syria that had people against one another – depending on whether they were pro or agin, al Assad. He has run a brutal regime, and is well known – inside and out for it.

    In 1963, it was not so much the Ba’ath party itself that instigated any changes, but a military coup – aligned to the Arab Socialist Ba’ath party ( admittedly ) … but was designed and put into operation by a military committee. It had become a policed state. The Ba’ath party again rules – overseen by Bashir al Assad.
    ……

    I cannot see your points Kaye, in displaying advances for women in Syria between 1963 and the late 1990’s. … The regime was brutal from the early 1960’s, and has remained so. Sure there were a few token advances in that country towards women, but overall, women are not deemed to be of importance – other than perhaps being child-bearers. I do believe we know that to be the main game in many middle Eastern countries, sad as it to say.

    There may well be men from Syria who are doing what so many men did in kinder days – leaving their homes and families to pave the way for a better life in another country. But for as many men as there are doing that now from Syria, there most likely are as many men who are not.

    As I said in a previous post here – ” my point is, that domestic violence is not concentrated to any one ethnicity, religion, race or colour.” which you later echoed to make further points of your own.
    And I stand by that statement ( which was on domestic violence ) – while adding one further observation.

    That being, unless absolutely everyone in the world is lying, is being led by propaganda, is misguided and totally ill-informed – then it’s reasonable to suppose that the WORST ( if there can be such a distinction ) form of inequality and disrespect of women, will be found in the middle East. There are thugs that abound across the world – of all colours, race and religions – but if one were to drag through statistics ( I am not good at that, but you are ) … I think you would find the scales weigh heavily toward what is a distinct CULTURE in the middle East, not just bad tempered, ill raised brutes – i.e. the white trash kind who beat up their wives and children, here and elsewhere. That is domestic violence. …. Public and ritual familial displays of violence towards women, we do not have here, thank heavens. … But middle Eastern countries most certainly do. …. it is part of their way of life – and before anyone jumps down my neck, I am aware that ethnicity has also to do with the meaning of the word, culture. …. and Syria is very much a part of the middle East.

    I do know several Muslims … they are absolutely delightful people. Open and honest, and willing to meet and greet. 4 women in fact. I have yet to meet a Muslim man. Odd that !

    I can not agree with you Kaye – in your espousing any true good or advancement that the male-dominated Syrian regime may have done, are doing, or will do in the future, for women – overall.

    It is simply not in their genetic or life-style make-up.

29. Mark NeedhamSeptember 12, 2015 at 11:39 am

    Annie, geee, I wish I could write, Proper (sic) like you and others here on this site.
    No, fair dinkum….Above is succinct and meaningful. I just tend to throw stuff to-gether that doesn’t resemble my “minds words”.
    Mark Needham