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The Liberals Are Planning To Ban Cancel Culture!

Ok, it’s not actually true that they’re planning to introduce legislation to do it and a lot of people will be saying that the headline is just clickbait, but I can say that it’s not and that it’s irony and anyway, there was no headline and if you think that there was, well, you’re the sort of person who believes the Labor lies about Scott Morrison talking down electric vehicles…

Morrison has never said any such thing. I know this because our leader has said that he didn’t and if there’s one thing we can count on, it’s Scott Morrison’s word because he’s never told a lie in public office. I know this because – when asked – Morrison said he’d never told a lie and if you can’t trust the word of a man who tells you that they’ve never told a lie, then who can you trust?

After all, Labor are the ones who were going to introduce targets to reduce our emissions which the modelling showed would cost us thousands of dollars each and ensure that we all had to sell our first born child into slavery… which was a real problem for childless people and pensioners.

Pensioners, you may remember, were going to miss out on thousands of dollars already because when Labor removed their franking credits, their share income was going to drop from $250,000 pa to a mere $180,000… That is, the pensioner owned a share parcel of about ten million dollars.

Anyway, Scott won and that’s lucky because without his economic leadership, the country would now be in debt and the budget would be in deficit and Labor would be spending the money combatting climate change instead of allowing “can-do capitalism” to do all the work in return for a billion dollars or so. You see, while Labor would have wasted taxpayer money subsidising people to find solutions to climate change, the Liberals instead give money to the private sector and say, “There you go, this should help you reduce emissions!” And thanks to the Liberals’ much better modelling, cutting emissions will now SAVE us money.

Anyway, “cancel culture” is the actual topic for discussion here and when we talk about cancel culture we’re not talking about when we cancel contracts for submarines or when the government move the gag motion in Parliament because the Opposition is saying things they don’t like. No, it’s when people ask for things to be boycotted or silenced just because a person disagrees with what’s being said. We frequently have certain groups trying to stop people from expressing an opinion just because it happens to contain demonstrably incorrect and dangerous information and this shouldn’t be allowed to happen.

Take Peter Van Onselen. He was allegedly defamed on Twitter… I hope I’m allowed to say allegedly and that he won’t sue because he did tweet that he considers the fact that the person concerned took down the tweet and apologised was clear evidence of wrongdoing… Anyway, he was allegedly defamed and the tweet has been removed, the person has apologised, but this wasn’t enough for Mr Poor Victimised Onselen.

No, the person also added to their crime by deleting their Twitter account which meant that the apology also disappeared. So now, not only can’t people see whatever awful thing that was said, they can’t see an apology about something that most people won’t know about… unless they ask around because the outrage has made them curious. This sent the alleged journalist into a fury, telling Twitter that he would never let this rest and that the mob was trying to silence him…

Now, Mr Van Onselen has a right to run his own life, but personally, if someone were to say something defamatory about me…Let’s say someone suggests that I have a flatulence problem. Personally, I would prefer to ignore it, but if I were moved to obtain an apology and a retraction, I’d certainly consider it counterproductive to constantly remind people that something was said about me – which wasn’t true – and have people wonder what was said or, if they know, wonder about how bad the flatulence problem really is. And I certainly wouldn’t say that I’m never going to stop until… Or actually, to quote PVO, “I’ll never let it rest!” so there is no until.

I’d be happy that I’d received a retraction and an apology and I’d figure that this has cleared the air… Perhaps the wrong phrase to use when talking about an alleged flatulence problem.

But that’s just me.

Although once public figures were also pretty reluctant to use defamation proceedings on the grounds that they might amplify what would others only be heard by a handful of people. And politicians rarely did, partly because of the same reason, and partly because parliamentary privilege meant that it seemed unfair that they could defame people without legal consequence, so it might seem a bit unfair to the average voter. Now, we have the Minister for War (is that defamatory, whoops!) telling us that there should be a fund for politicians to use taxpayer money to sue people saying nasty things like they’re unfit for office. I presume this means that any successful prosecution would be paid back to the taxpayer, given that we stumped up the money in the first place. Although, when I think about it, that would mean that any. newspaper editor, businessperson or lawyer setting up a blind trust to pay for a politician’s legal costs would get the money if they’re defamation case was successful.

Free speech should never be stifled, unless you have a really good lawyer.

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60 comments

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  1. Joe Carli

    I tell you what though..Identity politics has all but destroyed the collective unanimity of left-wing politics..because it has divided the “haves” from the “have nots”….Identity politics has destroyed any inherent sympathy from the soft-left toward the “under-classes”..you isolate an image of impoverished slovenly Alpha male or female, cast a critical spotlight over their dress, language/behaviour and out come the middle-class sensibility accusations condemmning the WHOLE LOT of them!….then comes the LNP wedging and before you know it, Bob Brown’s got a convoy going to the heart of Elizabeth or Davoren Park!

  2. Kate Ahearne

    Lovely, Rossleigh.

    I do like the idea of cancelling cancel culture. But then if that were allowed to happen, we’d probably find that we’d jolly well have to cancel the cancelling of the cancel culture, and so on and so forth.

  3. leefe

    Joe

    Exactly what is your beef with identity politics?
    Sorry, first questions first: do you even know what identity politics is? Because I’ve yet to see you say anything about it that indicates you do understand what it is and what its aims are. You are continually shoving the phrase into comments on virtually every topic whether it is relevant or not. It has become as tedious as wam’s endless perorations about Bob Brown (who you have somehow managed to drag into this one as well).

    Your little bit about dividing ‘”the haves from the have nots” … isn’t that what the class struggle is about? There is a divide – not due to identity politics – and it keeps getting wider. And the struggle is to reduce – or, even better – remove it. Isn’t that what you want?

    The right can’t get rid of cancel culture. They invented it and have been wielding it with great abandon for yonks. Besides, if people want to withdraw their custom from a supplier, surely they have the right to do so in a free market economy? After all Scotty from Bullshitting has just assured us that he isn’t in the business of telling people what to buy (unless they’re on an Indue card … )

  4. GL

    Joe,

    That’s childish. Instead of being polite and answering the question you go for insults. Well done.

  5. Joe Carli

    Look…I was going to respond to leefe…I had even written most of it out…but then I lost heart and deleted it and just said goodbye…..it’s just so wearying…so debilitating to the spirit…it’s like when one of those religious people come to your door and you look them up and down even before you say hello and you just know they aren’t going to take ANYTHING you say seriously…and really, there’s nothing you CAN say as they have their questions and answers down pat from the word go…I swear to you I had a reply going..but I again read leefe’s loaded questionaire and I just lost heart..like those Aimish folk…they are so certain..so chock full of another worldly “grace” that there is really nothing you can say except “Hello….goodbye”

    And anyway youse two…don’t come the raw prawn with me..I’ve had to fend both of you off at times when you came at me with teeth bared seeking nothing more than my blood…so go check the flitch in thine own eye…

  6. GL

    Joe,

    “And anyway youse two…don’t come the raw prawn with me..I’ve had to fend both of you off at times when you came at me with teeth bared seeking nothing more than my blood…so go check the flitch in thine own eye…”

    You do this sort of thing almost every time someone asks you a question or makes a comment that makes you feel uncomfortable you turn it into an attack. For Dog’s sake grow up and stop making yourself out to be a victim. It’s most unbecoming and can be extremely annoying.

    Let it rest there and we can move along.

  7. Arnd

    Joe …

    … just for the record, let’s hear it: What is your problem with identity politics?

    I know what my problem with it is, and I for one would be interested to find out how far apart our views are!

  8. David Stephen Ayliffe

    Poor Scomo, PM for Scomo and Scomo like things, let’s just hope, pray and cross everything that can be crossed that he and his lot are canceled at the next election.

  9. leefe

    No Joe, you don’t know that I wouldn’t take what you say seriously, you just think that. I would not have asked if I didn’t want to understand the thought processes behind it.
    Could you possibly try to not read things into what I say that aren’t explicitly there?

    I can see one way in which what you said about identity politics would be correct: if the only important issue you have with our society and systems is the workers v bosses imbalance, then any distraction from that fight lessens the effort directed towards it, for a while at least. Of course it does. But there are other problems, things that don’t affect you directly yet still exist and still create major barriers for others.
    And if you want to have any chance of winning your battle, you need allies.
    If you not only refuse to help those affected by sexism, but refuse to even acknowledge it is a problem, you have no right to expect those people to help you. If you not only refuse to help those affected by racism, but refuse to even acknowledge it is a problem, you have no right to expect those people to help you. And so on. This is part of the point of intersectionality – by all of us helping to fix one another’s problems, the struggles are easier. Collaboration rather than fragmentation.

    It’s a complex subject and one that calls for discussion and reasoned debate.

  10. Joe Carli

    Well, Arnd…YOUR request comes from a sincere desire to be informed,so I will oblige…but first..if I may…let me “deal” with “GL”(aka: Kronomex)…

    “1.Kronomex March 31, 2019 at 7:10 pm
    Here we go again with your seemingly endless obssesion with class. For some of us it has become rather tiresome, please give it a break. Find something else to bang on about for awhile.”…..so you can see, my old mate with the mexican stop-watch has been on to my case for a long while…we go WAAAAY back…and I know it is just a bit of friendly chiakking on his part…isn’t it…ol’ mate?…..say hello to the missus, ‘Kronny’..

    But Arnd..This “identity politics” thingo…it’s a tricky one, in that so many of “the left” being firmly embedded in such a situation simply cannot see that they are subject to such ease of persuasion and control by the right-wing whenever a wedge is needed or applied…NOT to even suggest there will be a swing of votes from those identity politics warriors from the left to the right in an election, but there only has to be a swing AWAY from Labor (the major party of any sort of left-wing politics in Aust’) to a minor party so that the LNP pick up the percentages…as they did in the 2019 Fed’ election…Here…I posted this after the election..

    “15/6/2019….Ok..here’s what I deduce happened..: The polls are going ratshit for the LNP..they are in the proverbial..what to do?…their spin-doctor lobbyists suggest a consultation with the now defunct “Cambridge Analytica” to crunch the numbers needed to get the LNP over the line in the coming election..They work out that the mood of the voters is toward small parties/indies to get a better percentage of the voting…BUT..where will their preferences go?..There lies the solution.
    They need to get heaps of preferences in many seats from a reliable source…enter PHON and Palmer…they are the only ones who can cover so much ground..But PHON are arse-breakingly inept, unreliable and broke…but they are solid on-side..They are keen for a deal..so they are told; ok, but get some money or get stuffed!…Exit Ashby and co. to the NRA. Where they confess that if they had the dosh, they could alter the democratic outcome in the elections..or wtte..
    Palmer is “reliable old-school Nat’ Party swindle”…and he has his assets frozen in 2018 over the shennannigan’s of he, his relative and his companies fiddling the books and wages of his employees etc…he’s under the pump both legally and financially..AND he has that handy, dodgy old political party of his tucked away in the closet like an A. Jones deep, dark confession…He has the many bank accounts where money could be shifted to from ..say; Parakeela, a certain “prospecting” group or India..if you get the drift!…whatever, he’s on board..he has no choice…but he’s not interested in getting back into Parliament…he doesn’t have to, they say…he only has to follow instructions and enter a candidate in EVERY SEAT running and let the “back-room boys” run the show from there..all he is needed for is to give a sense..a very slim sense…(because the AEC is in the hands of another “Duntroon Poltroon” and can be guaranteed to ‘do its job”…of f#ck all)…of legitimacy to the scam…HE only has to do a couple of pressers when required and then he can go spend sometime in Fiji or wherever…yes!..of course..all “on The House”…AND as a bonus, he can keep the electoral refund money he gets for the percentage of votes he gathers……if he just keeps his mouth shut!
    Let the preference farming begin!”

    There have been other recent events that have gelled a majority of women to cluster into identity politics on issues of abuse in Parliament and the workplace etc..so that NO MALE politician worth his salt would dare contradict ANY woman when it comes to public accusation or speculation and I suspect this “voting bloc” will be capitalised upon by several opportunistic political parties / independents to shift huge numbers away from the major parties to what is seen as a sympathetic voice for such identity politics…I will not even deign to raise the point here (as I have done recklessly before) of the irony of so many “Left-wing” sympathisers giving moral/physical support to even suspect crazy right-wing victims of their own right-wing crazies…at the risk of being dragged before a resurected inquisition that would accuse me of making false claim that sex (hey!..doesn’t it always come down to sex?..tch, tch!) was a mutually enjoyable practice between consenting adults!

  11. Joe Carli

    And of course…as an added bonus, we see “good ol’ Bobby Brown” and his Beverly Hillbilly Convoy seal the fate of ANY possibility of a “left-wing” govt’ being formed any time soon…identity politics saw an end to THAT!

    Oh..and that last line in the above post should have read..: ” . . . was ONCE…once a mutually enjoyable practice . . . “…….we don’t do it for fun any more…just for the money! :

  12. Kate Ahearne

    Joe,
    ‘…so that NO MALE politician worth his salt would dare contradict ANY woman when it comes to public accusation or speculation…’
    Rubbish. A great many males have had a great deal to say against the women who have ‘dared’ to speak up about anything from sexual harassment to rape in the context of government. It beats me how you could have missed it!

  13. Joe Carli

    Kate…I did say “worth his salt”…of course some less “erudite” LNP politicians have gone down that path and have or will suffer the consequences at the forthcoming elections…but you can just about put your house on the odds that not many “Hard-Right” women will openly vote against those blokes…because so many there have an “investment” in the play of power in politics…You know..I am beginning to wonder on the depth of political nous of many on the current left-side of politics..

  14. leefe

    Joe

    “…so that NO MALE politician worth his salt would dare contradict ANY woman when it comes to public accusation or speculation…”
    “…I did say “worth his salt”…”

    In that case, there are SFA male politicians worth their salt, and none in the LNP.

    If I’m reading this correctly, you’re claiming that identity politics is a right-wing movement used to fragment the left. Is that right? Nothing to do with people fighting against discrimination, against oppression, against harm done directly to themselves and those about whom they care, just another right-wing con-job?

  15. Kate Ahearne

    Joe,

    It’s perfectly possible that those men who are not ‘speaking out’ against the women who have complained about the toxic culture in and around our government are refusing to do so because they know perfectly well that there is a real problem, not because they don’t ‘dare’ to.

  16. leefe

    Kate,

    ‘It’s perfectly possible that those men who are not ‘speaking out’ against the women who have complained about the toxic culture in and around our government are refusing to do so because they know perfectly well that there is a real problem, not because they don’t ‘dare’ to.’

    They know and are complicit. They don’t want things to change, because they like it the way it is.

  17. Arnd

    Bugger!

    Joe, instead of asking, I should have just read the first sentence of your first comment, shouldn’t I?

    I don’t enjoy raining on your parade … – but the “collective unanimity of left-wing politics” that you invoke, and that was “all but destroyed by identity politics”, never existed in the first place! Since long before Marx outlined all sorts of weird and wonderful “Socialisms” in the Manifesto.

    I googled it, and one ainrialai, on Reddit, rather authoritatively detailed how:

    The People’s Front of Judea and the Judean People’s Front both had their origin in the Social Democratic Party of Judea, which later became complacent with working within the Roman provincial system for incremental gains, forgetting its revolutionary origins.

    The PFJ and JPF began in the left faction of the SDPJ. Soon, this faction began agitation for armed resistance, while the party’s dominant faction claimed that revolutionary conditions had not yet been met.

    Meanwhile, the People’s Front of Judea experienced its own schism, as a small faction split off into the Popular Front of Judea …

    And don’t get me started on the Judean Anarchist Federation…

    What I am trying to say, is this identity politics thingy has been going on for a long time, and is one of those thingies that needs to be taken in stride, not personally. Yes, 2nd wave feminism does instruct that “The political is personal”, but still!

    Yes, it is annoying to watch women like Julia “I could live on 40 bucks a day” Banks claim victimhood, or watch Brittany Higgins realise that her dream job as political staffer involved her in a deeply misogynistic and staunchly patriarchal party.

    And don’t forget that Jenny Macklin, in her incarnation as Labor’s family minister, confidently (brazenly) claimed she could live on $35/day.

    Sorry to break it to you so rudely, Joe: but, by and large, the left is not really “worth its salt”!

    Time to start from scratch, I say!

  18. Kate Ahearne

    leefe,

    Not ‘speaking out’ against the women concerned is a far cry from not ‘speaking out’ against the toxic culture. Perhaps i didn’t make myself perfectly clear.

  19. leefe

    Kate,

    No, you were quite clear. I was agreeing with you by amplifying your remark.

  20. Joe Carli

    Probably…the thing worse than being proved wrong is to have one’s worst suspicions proved right!…..Peter Dutton, a while back said or wrote some outrageous thing on Twitter that lit the board up like a Christmas tree…the vitriol was palpable (as they say)…but his only reaction was to reply : “You lefties are easy”…..the “easy” part meaning, I shouldn’t wonder that it was so easy to outrage us….and by association to wedge us…which they proved correct at the THEN 2019 Fed’ election (as I wrote of above).

    Now, it’s all well and good…and I dare say; fair and moral to demand change and resolution on many fronts that are indeed seen to be damned unfair..and THAT is the intention of the left side of politics…but in holding a magnifying glass to those wrongs, there is the possibility..nay..the certainty that in the casting of the net to catch those wrongdoers there is a huge innocent “bi-catch” dragged and gutted just for being of the same species…but in reading the comments above from Ms’s Ahern and leefe, there is NO INNOCENT bi-catch and like a frantic Torquemada “All are guilty…there is just the depth of the sin!”…

    Anyway..whatever the outcome, I can see the left once again, through the machinations of right-wing wedging and false-flag political action, being lost after the next election wailing at the wall of a lost temple of social revolution, like so many Jews weeping for a remembered Zion…Personally, if I was of The LNP strategists, I’d be pouring MORE money into the election coffers of The Greens and other nondescript parties than my own!…for it is in the steering of the mindless “I want to do what is right and proper” masses that an election is won..terrible, isn’t it..?

  21. Terence Mills

    Anthony Albanese is in a tight spot right now. He has been effectively wedged by Morrison.

    As with the last election when the coalition put forward no polices it is now up to Albanese to counter the coalition’s climate change policy which is not actually a policy and relies on can do capitalism to provide all the answers. It’s a clever and cynical ploy and leaves Albanese with very little wriggle room. If he were to boldly announce the phasing out of coal and a new emissions trading scheme, which is what he should be doing, he and Labor will be destroyed by Morrison. No matter what he announces on Electric vehicles he will be a target for Morrison’s do nothing politics.

    Morrison has already laid the groundwork for the election and as far as he’s concerned it’s essentially that the government will actually do nothing about anything – people don’t want to be told what to do by governments is his mantra for doing absolutely bugger all about anything.

    I don’t envy the policy wonks in the ALP who have to try and contrast their approach and their vision for Australia with a coalition who don’t have and don’t want to have any policies.

    Very strange times !

  22. Kate Ahearne

    leefe,

    No. From what you say, didn’t make myself clear. Let’s put it this way –

    Some men spoke out against the women. Perhaps they didn’t believe the women. Perhaps they wanted to support the toxic culture. Perhaps they are misogynists. Perhaps they think it’s perfectly OK to sexually harass or rape women. Perhaps they thought they should put up a fight against those ‘evil, lying women’. Perhaps they thought they needed to defend their side of politics from scandal, whether truth or lies…

    *Some men did not ‘speak out’ against the women. Perhaps they ‘didn’t dare’. Perhaps they ‘didn’t dare’ because they are not ‘worth their salt’. Perhaps they actually believed the women, so no reason whatever to speak out against them. Perhaps they couldn’t be bothered. Perhaps in a he said/she said situation, they didn’t want to take sides.

    I really don’t like or agree with your amplification. ‘They know and are complicit. They don’t want things to change, because they like it the way it is.’ Are you saying that these men who don’t speak out against the allegations the women have made are not speaking out against those women because they (the men) are complicit? Doesn’t make any sense.

  23. Joe Carli

    Now..if – I – was doing the strategy to get Morrison liked more in the community, I’d fabricate a situation where he’d be seen sympathetically as the one hard done by..Here’s how I’d do it..

    Picture this : Morrison’s at a primary school fete..he’s manning the sausage sizzle stall..the photo op people are there as is the MSM press gallery and there is also..though not yet front and centre..a young hipster type man dressed like he could be..COULD BE..a Greens supported or lefty of some sort..but he is really a “Young Liberals” plant to set up the situation..

    Ok..: A young boy (it’s gotta be a boy) steps up for a sausage from “Scomo” (it’s printed on his apron), Morrison greets the “young chap” and places the square of white bread in his left hand..he picks up a sausage with the tongs and puts it on the bread saying as he does so ; “there’s a big one for a growing boy!”..the cameras are clicking and Morrison is about to hand the sizzle to the lad and he asks if he’d like sauce?…yes, the lad says shyly and “Scomo” holds the bread in one hand and is about to squirt the sauce onto it..the lad reaches for the sizzle..the cameras are clicking..and then…that aforementioned “possible Greeny” starts to heckle Morrison..calling among other things the final loud-voiced accusation : “…and you’re a lousey father!”…….there is a gasp from the gathered crowd..the cameras stop clicking..the insult hits home and Scomo falters in the action of squirting the sauce, instead it drips desultory out of the nozzle onto his apron and shoes..he turns his face toward the heckler and the saddest look of hurt is there…as sad and deep as the mouth-dropping saddest that even Buster Keaton couldn’t better…..the sausage slips from the bread onto his shoe and sits there….the cameras start clicking again..but now slower and more spaced..

    Morrison pulls himself up…apologises to the lad and makes the point of giving him a slice of bread with TWO sausages on it and then with a flourish of the sauce bottle goes about his work…..(The young “Greeny” heckler is lynched somewhere off the side away from the cameras)…

    THAT’s how I’d do it..and I tell you what, if you could get Morrison..agains ALL of his better nature..to squeeze out a tear drop at the moment when that sausage falls to the ground….it’d be worth half a dozen seats..if not a landslide!

  24. leefe

    Kate:

    I meant that men – all those men who are silent, or speaking against the whistleblowers – are complicit in the culture that fosters the sort of behaviour in question. They are enablers. Keeping others out means more for them. Keeping victims victimised means they don’t have to behave very well themselves to be seen as ‘better’. It keeps the bar low so they can look good with minimal effort.
    They do not necessarily do so consciously, although some – possibly many – do. But that is how it works out and that is why so many supposedly ‘good’ men do so little to make any sort of change.
    It’s not that different to the women who suck up to them and work from the same script who, in return, get a little temporary protection and a few scraps from the table. A form of self-defence, if you like.

    Yes, I know that makes me sound to some people like some sort of crazy man-hating ultra-extreme feminazi. Which is not true. Most of my best and closest friends are and have been men. Many of those I most admire are men. I don’t hate men in general.
    I just wish they’d grow the fuck up.

  25. Kate Ahearne

    leefe,

    I understand what you’re saying, and am generally in agreement. I think we’ve had our wires crossed.

    My problem is with Joe’s original statement: ‘…so that NO MALE politician worth his salt would dare contradict ANY woman when it comes to public accusation or speculation…’ The grammar seems to indicate a particular meaning for this statemen – If you were worth your weight as a male politician, you would be too scared to contradict ‘ANY’ woman who has made allegations (of sexual harassment or rape). What on earth does that mean? Frankly, I can’t think of any interpretation that I could possibly agree with. I’m particularly concerned about the implication that such women OUGHT to be contradicted.

  26. Joe Carli

    Kate Ahearne….The problem for those “Other men” is YOUR presumed “guilt by association”…because…yes..we males..at least the Hetero’ males..ARE guilty…by thought if NOT deed…certainly NOT deed!…because it has been ordained by a power higher and greater than mere patriarchy that hetero’ males are attracted to females…and I will confess here and now that the first assesment I have toward any…ANY introduced female is a sexual one..it’s automatic..you get introduced and one’s inner “eye” scans the woman’s height, shape, body weight, eyes, facial structure…in short ..; The complete..THE COMPLETE..once over and it is done in the blink of an eye and then you reach for the handshake.

    Yes…there you go..we are guilty…desire rules the male’s ego…want and sexual hunger, his thought and action…BUT..it is the civilising influence of a responsible society that commands him to behave with a sense of decorum and manners…and he obeys…take away that sense of responsibility and the proverbial shit hits the fan!…to know how fast it hits the fan, recall the descent into anarchy and mayhem the Jugoslavic State descended in its time of civil war.

    So you and leefe and any other women can claim “men are this and men are that”…and yes , it is true but there is another part of men that you may have missed…: We are the other half of YOU!

  27. leefe

    Joe:

    You obviously have a far lower opinion of men than any man-hating feminist could ever achieve. Maybe that opinion would be higher if you didn’t assume all men – sorry, all straight men – are so much like you? 😉

    (And before you get your knickers in a twist over that, just remember: you set yourself up for it perfectly.)

    Kate:

    With you totally.

  28. Kate Ahearne

    I’m sorry, Joe.

    I’m finding it very difficult to catch what you’re getting at, and not at all sure how much of it is relevant. This, for instance, is making no sense to me at all: ‘The problem for those “Other men” is YOUR presumed “guilt by association”…’

    Thanks, leefe.

  29. Arnd

    leefe,

    I’m afraid Joe is a lot closer to the money than you apparently are able or willing to recognise. The ferociously mercenary dimensions of “the meet market” have repeatedly been illuminated, and not just since “swipe left, swipe right” became a thing.

    What do you think Jane Austen wrote about? Or Leo Tolstoy, Theodor Fontaine and Gustave Flaubert?

    But don’t just take my word for it. The dispiriting plight of femcels is the subject of occasional reflection.

    That powerful male players in this game can and occasionally do develop a disproportionate sense of entitlement is, to most other men, not particularly surprising. Neither is the fact that many women, each for their own reasons, can and will play along. At times quite skilfully and shrewdly.

  30. Kate Ahearne

    Arnd,

    Can’t make much sense of your latest contribution, either. Not having much luck with the sense-making, am I? Is it just me?

    And what’ have femcels got to do with anything we’ve been talking about?

  31. Joe Carli

    I thought I put up a story here about the cunning nature of a woman (back in the ‘fifties) seeking to have a child from another man because her husband was firing blanks but would not admit it…so the wife’s only option..in her mind..was to find a “look-alike” male to father her child..as is her womanly right..but the substitute male did not know he was being used as a sperm donor..I thought it was up on this site but I cannot find it..but here it is on my blog if you are at alll interested in how “The other half” works out their wants and needs…

    “Write again, Blue eyes.”

    You disapoint me, Kate Ahearne….not leefe…she measures right up to my expectations…but I thought you more savvy….but I see you have trouble joining the obvious dots..

  32. Arnd

    Kate, thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. Especially since I thought I was merely emphasizing an already patently obvious point. But obviously not!

    What have femcels to do with it all? Well, leefe sort of reproached Joe for admitting that he, like many other men, does judge women on appearance. The lived experience of femcels does clearly support Joe’s statement, rather than leefe’s wishful pretence that it ain’t so.

    As well, I concur with Joe’s admonition that “We are the other half of YOU!” – or as I put it to a – shall we say “strident” – feminist many years ago: “We – men and women – make our bed together. We have to sleep in it together! (No pun intended!).”

    Some – many – women do play along with the games of patriarchy – and do hold it against men who dont. At least that’s my experience, as a man who never really liked to partake in silly patriarchy pissing contests himself, and consequently led a much more marginal life than I originally expected or intended.

  33. Kate Ahearne

    Joe,

    Just a couple of remarks about your most recent contribution: ‘You disapoint me, Kate Ahearne….not leefe…she measures right up to my expectations…but I thought you more savvy….but I see you have trouble joining the obvious dots..’

    Well, some dots that are obvious to you are not obvious to me, and vice versa. As for the ‘cunning nature’ of the woman looking for a surrogate father for her chid – Has that got anything to do with the discussion to date? Or am I missing some more dots? Marbles, even? Certainly hope not!

    Not sure if you’re praising leefe, or ………. (That’s a nice little lot of dots from me to you. Hey, they might be micro-dots containing highly classified State Secrets. Your Mission, should you choose to accept it, might be Impossible.)

  34. Kate Ahearne

    Arnd,

    Which of the definitions of femcels are you going by?

  35. Arnd

    Kate, did you click through to the linked Guardian article? I thought Lizzie Cernick explained it all rather well.

  36. leefe

    Arnd, I know there are plenty of men who think and feel like Joe, and feel little restraint in acting on those thoughts and feelings. Possibly even the majority. But he’s insisting that it is innate in all (straight) men and that others are, in effect, asking too much when we expect a more mature attitude and pattern of behaviour.
    Yes, I know, I’m “not al men”–ing. Shame on me.

    I still believe that men can, and should, be better. That there is no ‘divine right’ to be perves and lechers, That if they were taught and raised to simply consider everyone as human as they are, that they would be better.
    Wishful thinking? Maybe. But what’s the point of fighting against these entrenched attitudes if you truly think that what we have is the best that can be done?

    Joe,

    I’ve told you before: I am not a “she”. “They” is preferable.

  37. GL

    “Roswell..: ” I see what’s happening here. . . Joe sees himself as the victim,. . . “……..Roswell..what would we do without you?…….(“I tell Mrs Fawlty he want to see girl…and she go crazy . . . )”

    Typical behaviour from you Joe. Someone makes a comment and you get all up in arms and do your usual resorting to insults because you just can’t stand anything that even vaguely resembles criticism. Try replying like an adult rather than being a petulant child!

    I saw Roswell’s comment at 6.48: that’s a red flag to you and you didn’t disappoint. As usual.

    And…

  38. Kate Ahearne

    Arnd,

    Yes, of course I clicked through, but the click came up blank. Then I consulted Professor Google. I certainly didn’t find any definition there that could possibly explain why you went to the idea of femcels in this context.

    Rossleigh,

    My Knight in (usually) Witty Armour! However, I think it’s not exactly a solo tango that’s going on here.

    Anyhow, I think I owe you another banana cake.

    But seriously, folks – this platform does need to be respected for the opportunities it offers to all of us citizen journalists, and to all of us seekers after facts and sensible discussion. We need to be respectful towards each other as human beings, but that doesn’t mean we have to be respectful towards rubbish/offensive/irrelevant/nasty put-downs by one commentator to another writer here.

    And anyway, as Greta Thunberg says, we haven’t got time for all this ‘blah, blah, blah’.
    Are we pulling together, or are we pulling apart? Are we riding our hobby horses into oblivion?

  39. Kate Ahearne

    Arnd,

    Tried both of those. Still nothing. Why don’t you just explain in your own words why this is important/relevant in this context? I understand that it might be important to you, but why here and now? I just don’t get it.

  40. Kate Ahearne

    Joe,

    You might do well to sleep on things, and have another think in the morning. If you go to Twitter, with this discussion still up on the AIMN site, you run the risk of people coming here to see what it’s all about. You probably wouldn’t want that.

    Anyway, it’s my bedtime – I’m worn out. Time for me to sleep on things.

  41. Carol Taylor

    To my way of thinking this country is in dire straits, increasing inequality, climate change denial, Aboriginal disadvantage, liars being accepted as Leader, curry cooking replacing intelligent debate.

  42. Phil Pryor

    There are so many with itchy genitals who seem to rub them here.., does this help? Make a point or two, back this up your way, take it, cop it, try again in one reply, be civilised, constructive, progressive, literate…(shut up, fool) Meanwhile, liars are laughing…

  43. LOVO

    Geez, Roswell, ya so lucky he’s only gunna tweet you…….imagine if’n he had a MySpace account……😉
    If I was you Roswell I’d peek out the blinds in the morning to see if any journalist are out the front…..or mayhap protesters with placards saying things like “Roswell unfair to Joe” or “I ❤ Joe”, be a feard Roswell..be very a feared….jest sayin 😇

  44. Roswell

    I fixed the missing “s” up for you, LOVO. It’s all part of the service.

  45. wam

    Yes, roswell, it seems the only time scummo talks about things going to be done it is his interpretation of what albo is going to do.
    The media is quick to splash their pages/shows with his plans without any questions about implementation.
    I am a vicious old prick so twitter is not a platform for people like me, joe and ???
    ps
    michael, it is too dangerous to open a red at 2131 without makan
    pps
    all men who are free to think are believers in the principles of feminism

  46. Kate Ahearne

    GL,

    Thanks for the Twitter stuff.

  47. Kate Ahearne

    And whoops! I seem to have conflated Roswell with Rossleigh, and probably not for the first time! Knights in shining armour, both, and banana cakes all round.

  48. leefe

    OK everyone, apologies for setting this off. It was never my intention to start a shitstorm or to provoke Joe into putting himself in this position. Maybe I should have just kept holding my tongue.

  49. Kate Ahearne

    leefe,

    Thanks. I’ve been thinking exactly the same thing about my own role. So my apologies, also.

    It’s very difficult to weigh up all the factors and arrive at a balanced response. Some people, for instance, have mental health issues, and one doesn’t want to be hurtful to anyone. On the other hand, rubbish needs to be called rubbish, and personal attacks are not OK, and need to be called out. The trouble with that is that we all have a tendency, to one extent or another, to take a disagreement as an attack. It’s just human.

    We need to respect each other as human beings, but we don’t have to respect each other’s behaviour when that behaviour is obnoxious.

    And, of course, the irony of all this happening under the banner of Rossleigh’s title, ‘The Liberals Are Planning to Ban Cancel Culture’ is illuminating, to say the least!

  50. Arnd

    leefe and Kate,

    I really don’t see you should have restrained your questioning and probing Joe’s ideas. The man should have developed the capability to defend and explain his views without repeatedly resorting to personal attack.

  51. leefe

    Kate,

    I don’t think you are in any way at fault here. The thing is, Joe and I have a little history on this site, and I seem to be something of a red rag to bulls of a certain type.

    Anyway, peace and love to all and pass the chocolate bikkies around.

  52. Kate Ahearne

    Thanks, leefe,

    I sort of thought there must be some history. I’ll take it that I have permission to make a batch of hedgehog slice?

    Arnd,

    Thanks for your support. This site is such a very valuable asset to the people who come here to write and read. It’s sad to see people trashing the place, and each other. We don’t need to sink to the depths in order to make our points. Surely there are ways for us to disagree with opinions without having to attack the person who is expressing them. (Although I must confess to expressing some exasperation at times!)

  53. Canguro

    Not uncommon for illusions to flourish amid the aridity of one’s existence in these backblock communities, subjective lunacies furnishing the obsessions that give rise to the verbal bombs flung from afar; Sedan against the world, our place as good as anywhere and the ‘don’t mess with me or you’ll regret it’ kind of pugnacious defence of one’s views irrespective of their merit.

    Years ago before blogs were a thing, there were bulletin boards. One, run out of London, had an eclectic audience from the UK, the States, Aust & NZ. I had a run-in with a cranky redneck American from Oregon; I’d pissed him off by taking the piss on his love of weaponry and rationale for the collection; the threats to his ‘way of life’ etc., and he went a bit berserk, threatening to jump on a plane to Australia and hunt me down. Initial reaction to the threat – concern. A little later – hilarity… that here was a human who was so incensed by the criticism directed towards him that he was threatening to kill the critic. The hilarity was, of course, in a certain way re-directed fear, and if the Oregonian had been, say, a New South Wales resident, it may have been a very different story.

    Anyway, in this case, I’m guessing you can’t take the man out of Sedan, nor Sedan from the man, so the Sedan man’s protagonists are likely safe in the knowledge that their physical security is intact.

  54. Kaye Lee

    Wow, I’m glad I wasn’t here for this conversation.

    “I will confess here and now that the first assesment I have toward any…ANY introduced female is a sexual one..it’s automatic..you get introduced and one’s inner “eye” scans the woman’s height, shape, body weight, eyes, facial structure…in short ..; The complete..THE COMPLETE..once over and it is done in the blink of an eye and then you reach for the handshake.

    Yes…there you go..we are guilty…desire rules the male’s ego…want and sexual hunger, his thought and action”

    Joe (and others) seem to think that feminists tar all men with the same brush, thus unfairly punishing all men for the sins of a few. Yet Joe is the one who is generalising, suggesting that his view of women is shared by all ‘straight’ men.

    If Joe is right then we still have “a long long way to go until I make my brother understand”.

  55. Michael Taylor

    In better news, Carol just told me that according to the latest Newspoll Morrison’s popularity has plummeted. Who would have thought? 😁

  56. leefe

    Kate:

    Bring on the hedgehog slice. Only wish I lived near enough to get some. Guess the Tim Tams will have to do …

    Arnd, etc:

    Thanks for the support.

    Michael:

    Now, that’s really made my day. If only we didn’t have to rely on him calling the election.
    Although there is always the possibility that the LNP will be even more on the nose by the time it finally happens. I live in hope.

  57. Terence Mills

    Joe Carli

    Clive Palmer is looking for candidates for his United Australia Party………………this could be your destiny !

  58. Terence Mills

    Scott Morrison has said that he is the underdog in the upcoming election. He has also said that Labor would increase petrol prices, electricity prices and interest rates.

    Where do I start : it’s all lies and Labor have no more control over interest rates (Reserve Bank), Petrol (global pricing) electricity (we’ve been here before).

    Labor have been very wise in not declaring any of their policies : one they could announce is a state funeral should Scomo fall under a bus – that’s a winner !

    Memo to Media : please call out the lies.

    This is going to be a very long and tedious election campaign.

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