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The Green betrayal

The last three years of Liberal National government have been absolutely nightmarish. Their ideological wrecking-ball has crashed through every imaginable progressive policy area. They have been ferocious in their quest for small government and a neoliberal economy that benefits only the wealth and privilege of the tiny few at the top end of town.

You would think progressives would see this election as finally a chance to end the daily horror. You would think the risk of this government getting a second term, and an awareness of the even-scarier havoc this government could create with a majority in the senate might compel progressives into a united army, dedicated and driven in their mission to rid us of this threat. You would think.

Devastatingly, and we-need-a-stronger-new-word-for-frustratingly, this is not happening.

This tweet by Greens supporter Catherine Deveny is what’s actually happening:

 

CatherineDevenyTwitter

 

Catherine’s tweet mirrors the campaign of the Greens Party and Richard Di Natale, who, on the first day of the election, proclaimed that his priority this campaign is taking Labor-held inner-city Sydney and Melbourne seats such as Anthony Albanese’s seat of Grayndler, Tanya Plibersek’s seat of Sydney and David Feeney’s seat of Batman.

This week, the Greens joined Liberals in criticising Feeney when it was revealed he had a second property which hadn’t been declared, criticism which spectacularly back-fired when Di Natale was found to have done the very same thing. Add to this that Di Natale’s family paid au pairs a pittance for caring for his two children as live in house-keepers, it was not a good look for a man claiming to be pure after spending a week attacking Labor over penalty rates. All in all, it’s been a messy mud-slinging week of tit-for-tat between the Greens and Labor, helping again to take the spotlight off the real challenge for progressives this election; beating the Turnbull government.

Now, of course I’m not saying Greens don’t have the right to run against inner-city Labor candidates and to partake in dirt-slinging campaigns attacking Labor, because they have a right to do whatever they want in a democratic election.

But if they can do whatever they want, so can I do whatever I want, and point out that this campaign by the Greens is helping the Liberals win a second term. This campaign by the Greens is helping Liberals win a second term. I said it twice on purpose.

While the Greens focus on defeating Labor by putting their limited time, money, volunteers, media opportunities, campaign strategies, dirt-slinging and apparently-star-candidates (which is questionable in the case of Casey who admits to loving the idea of an Abbott government, at least he’s honest) into defeating Labor MPs, and while the likes of Deveny and thousands of other Greens supporters spend all their time and energy ranting and yelling about how bad Labor is and how evil Labor is and how nobody should ever vote Labor ever and how if you do, you’re a heartless-asylum-seeker-hater who deserves to be spat at on the street, the Liberals are absolutely loving every minute of it.

The Liberals are loving that Labor has to spend time, money and volunteers in safe Labor seats when Labor’s time, money and volunteers would be more effectively spent campaigning in marginal seats held by Liberals. The Liberals are loving the calls from the Devenys for people not to vote Labor, because the opposite of not voting Labor in our preferential electoral system is voting Liberal instead. Unless you put the Liberals last – or at least below Labor – you are effectively voting for them.

And do you know what the Liberals love even more? They love when the Greens are so desperate to beat Labor, that they do preference deals with Liberals. Preference deals which help the Liberals get more votes, thereby increasing Liberal’s chances of winning more seats than Labor and winning a second term of government. What’s not to love!

This willingness by the Greens to do deals with Liberals to help them defeat Labor comes on top of the Greens kindly helping the Liberals change senate voting laws, potentially increasing the chances of a Liberal senate majority, and reducing the vote for independents and minor parties who were instrumental in blocking not one, but three horror-Liberal-budgets, saving the country from some of the worst of the Liberal agenda.

To Greens who have already started yelling at their screens ‘THERE IS NO PREFERENCE DEAL’, which I have had yelled at me on Twitter approximately 12,000 times since the apparent preference deal was written about by Chris Wallace in the (firewalled) Saturday Paper last weekend, please read the article. For those who can’t access it, here is a summary: Victorian Liberal Party President Michael Kroger is likely to direct preferences (quote from article): ‘to the Greens in five Melbourne and Sydney seats’ in a strategy ‘to divide and rule the progressive side of politics’ (my emphasis). In return, the deal (quote from article) ‘would see the Greens issue “open tickets” that don’t direct preferences in a number of vulnerable marginal Liberal seats. While not a “swap”, the preference deal would subtly, but in extremely tight contests potentially decisively, affect the result by shifting the two-party-preferred vote a few vital percentage points’. Note, ‘affect the result’ means affecting the result in both the marginal seat AND THE WHOLE ELECTION, which is predicted to be tight.

Has this deal been confirmed? No. Are the Greens denying it? Yes. But they would wouldn’t they. How will the public ever know if such a deal was made? The Liberal how-to-vote card in five Melbourne and Sydney inner-city seats will direct preferences to Greens ahead of Labor. And there will be some Greens open-ticket how-to-vote cards floating around the place, which the Greens will no doubt claim just miraculously, coincidentally, I-don’t-know-how-that-happened-because-it-certainly-wasn’t-our-intention-to-help-the-Liberals-slippery-little-suckers-weasle-words and there MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT A DEAL! So we will see. And until we see, I will remain very very nervous about such a deal, because, even though of course preference deals happen all the time and they’re just a reality of political life, this particularly dirty deal, as Wallace has pointed out, could be the difference between a defeat and a second term for the Liberal government.

Everything is at risk: Gonski school funding, climate change policy, accessible higher education, workers’ rights, Medicare, housing affordability, national infrastructure such as public transport and the National Broadband Network, and I could go on on and on.

I can’t imagine how privileged your life would have to be, sitting in an inner-city Café, drinking a luke-warm Latte, to not have a care in the world except maintaining your comfortable spot on your high horse, screaming at anyone unlucky enough to come into your path that the Labor asylum seeker policy is THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS THIS ELECTION. And even if no other policy mattered to you, if you really were so privileged that you didn’t care about any other progressive policies because you hadn’t been hurt by, nor cared if your community was hurt by Liberal policies, and all you really did care about was immigration policy, how on earth can any sane, compassionate person possibly equate this one-and-only-care with the risk of continuing the Liberal’s asylum seeker policy, which results in zero chance of resettlement for refugees, thousands and thousands fewer refugees given a chance to live in Australia and complete and utter disregard for the safety, health and wellbeing of the poor, desperate people living in indefinite detention. And not only risk this outcome, but betters the chances of it through a preference deal? Really? You’d help the Liberals keep their asylum seeker policy if it meant stealing a few seats off Labor? Really?

If the Greens continue with their ‘beat Labor at all costs’ campaign and do make a deal-with-the-devil to win inner-city Labor seats, and Labor do manage to win the election regardless, this progressive win will be despite the Greens. Because the Greens aren’t just not helping. They’re determined to be a hindrance to Labor and therefore are effectively giving a leg-up to the Liberals. How they live with this reality, and vote for it, is beyond me.

 

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457 comments

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  1. David

    Di Natale in cohorts with Krogan and Deveny where the hell has the heart of the lefties Greens disappeared to. I cannot believe the Sarah Hanson Youngs or Scott Ludlams are buying this crap.

  2. australianphotographcollector

    Labor only has itself to blame through maintaining the abhorrent incarceration of asylum seekers.

  3. silkworm

    Where is the article from a Greens supporter to counter this rubbish?

  4. Steve Laing - makeourvoiceheard.com

    Actually, if you check De Natale’s statement, it is clear that the facts have been completely misrepresented and then compounded by the MSM. Which doesn’t stop the smear being repeated ad infinitum. Politics. Come on Victoria, you can do much better than this.

  5. Arthur Graves

    I see the Australian Sex Party is preferencing Labour in inner city Sydney seats that the Greens expected to hold/gain. Wouldn’t it be better to leave the Green’s to win winable seats off the Liberals?

  6. cornlegend

    Dicky wasn’t quite truthful on his property statement

    On 19 July 2011 Di Natale signed the Statement
    of Registerable Interests for senators.

    In this declaration to parliament he stated that
    he received income from “Twin Gums” –
    a small rural property, near Deans Marsh in Victoria .

    On 4 August 2014 he again declared income
    from “Twin Gums” farm.

    Senator Di Natale told The Sydney Morning Herald
    (in a video) in June 2015 that the property
    was purchased “about ten years ago”.

    On 20 May 2016 he was quoted in The Australian as
    saying that his wife Lucy Quarterman became
    a full owner of this farm in October 2012.

  7. Coralie Naumann

    Catherine Deveny does not talk for Greens and Di Natale has done what was required from parliament re his farm.

    If fighting to get a seat in an electorate is a crime against Labor, does that mean we can’t fight for any seats going?

    Greens in general, 2nd preference, or put Labor ahead of liberals. So take a long hard look at what you want before you shoot yourself in th foot.

    I am one member of Greens who will always put Labor before LNP.

  8. Jaquix

    Its a great shame that the Greens are going down this path. Its obvious that Di Natale is ambitious to the point of blindness. The future for this country is with a progressive government, and to have the 2 progressive parties working against each others interests, is truly counter-productive. After all the LNP would NOT be in power if the Nationals had not been seduced into the “business arrangement” with them. Surely The Greens and the Labor Party could at some stage in the future agree to some sort of alliance to end this competition between them for scarce seats. The enemy are the LNP. They know the truth of the old saying UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL.

  9. Miriam English

    When you have wiped the foam from your mouth Victoria, notice that most Greens are hoping for a Labor win. Yes, there will be stupid mistakes committed by politicians on all sides. I’m very disappointed by Richard di Natale. What a stupid thing to do. He has let his party down badly.

    However, running Greens candidates against Labor candidates who are tainted just makes good sense.

    I can imagine the machiavellian bastards in the LNP trying to throw the cat among the pigeons by announcing a fictional deal with the Greens. It would sow discord and make for knee-jerk angry rifts between the Greens and Labor, who together represent a genuine threat to the LNP. I’m sure someone in the LNP is grinning widely and rubbing his hands together in Bond-villain manner reading your reaction, Victoria.

  10. Divergent Aussie

    Doesn’t say much about Greens voters then does it. Being supposedly more intellectual, shouldn’t Greens voters be able to exercise their own judgement and ignore the how to vote card allocating their preferences directly to Labor?

  11. cornlegend

    Miriam English
    “However, running Greens candidates against Labor candidates who are tainted just makes good sense.”
    Most of the Greens spend has been against Albanese and Plibersek
    Tainted? in what way?

  12. Bighead1883

    Miriam English May 21, 2016 at 12:02 pm

    You are a pathetic Greens apologist who can`t hide her disdain
    Go on praise di Natale for paying $3.50 au pair rates

  13. andrew moran

    In the State election locally the Greens refused to preference. Which returned an LNP candidate. They like to pretend they didn’t vote LNP.

  14. Backyard Bob

    Steve,

    Come on Victoria, you can do much better than this.

    All evidence to the contrary.

    Vic wrote: (which is questionable in the case of Casey who admits to loving the idea of an Abbott government, at least he’s honest)

    I would strongly encourage everyone to actually watch the video of Casey in Victoria’s link to get a proper idea of what he said. I don’t strictly agree with his view but I get it; Victoria’s characterisation of it is, well, dust in the wind, frankly.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2016/star-greens-candidate-prefers-abbott-to-shorten-because-it-would-trigger-street-protests-and-civil-disruption-with-video–20160511-gosfrx.html

    The penultimate paragraph of this article is just insulting. For me it speaks to the deep embarrassment Labor progressives are feeling over their Party’s asylum seeker policy. If it is vote changing for some people, Labor, and supporters like Victoria, should just suck it up instead of insulting people in this manner.

    I think I’m gunna go sit in a cafe somewhere and drink a friggin’ latte.

  15. Jexpat

    Great.

    Another self-entitled laundry list of umbrage, histrionics and hypocrisy.

    What this reads like are some of the bits being chucked out by Clinton supporters (complete with “proof” by a cherry picked “tweet” of some Sanders supporter) -which have done nothing but alienate the people that they’ll need in November to defeat the Republican nominee.

    It’s as if some people don’t understand their own election system works (or rather, feel entilted to some sort of coronation instead of earning their votes the old fashioned way).

    If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it 100 times: there’s a reason why polling here is done on a two party preferred basis. Labor loses many if not most seats in a first past the post system.

    So keep it focused on the issues, because ginning up these shallow shitstorms does no one any good.

  16. Miriam English

    cornlegend, Albanese is tainted by the lies he spouted during the changes to the senate voting, but when I said “tainted” I was mostly thinking of Feeney. I don’t know enough about Plibersek to say.

    Dickhead1883, do learn to read. I said “I’m very disappointed by Richard di Natale. What a stupid thing to do. He has let his party down badly.”

  17. ace Jones

    The Greens are careless in regards to the country’s best interest, they have never been much good at all to the general public’s health. Current mob of Green maggots seem to crave the limelight with their perceived self-importance and whats more staggering is the rest of the mob of them seem to go along with these nut-job ideas/policies. All in all the Greens current policies of brown-nosed election manipulation are a blot on our political landscape, the Greens are a blight which we cannot seem to leave well enough alone. akin to that hidden annoying mosquito that keeps you from sleep at night, something you would dearly love to swat , a rotten bloodsucker ….

  18. The AIM Network

    Where is the article from a Greens supporter

    Silkworm, if anybody wants to submit an article, we would happily publish it.

  19. cornlegend

    Feeney is being attacked over property declarations, the same as Di Natale

  20. Backyard Bob

    because the opposite of not voting Labor in our preferential electoral system is voting Liberal instead

    Funny what happens to one’s brain in a heated moment. The opposite of “not voting Labor” is voting Labor.

    Sometimes you get the awkward feeling that some Labor folk think of the Greens as some sort of adjunct to their own Party and therefore the Greens ought never act out of self-interest if that harms the interest of the Labor Party. Oh, yes, they’ll acknowledge the right of the Greens to do this, as did Victoria, then lambaste them to all hell if they actually do it!

    Politics is hilarious.

  21. Kaye Lee

    I too am disappointed by what I see as petty squabbling. It reminds me of when my children were little and fought over a toy or a game or the tv or whose turn it was to sit in the front seat – the toy would be confiscated, the game packed up, the tv turned off and all children to sit in the back seat in future – no argument about who said what or who did what. My children learned to negotiate early which made all of our lives much more enjoyable.

    Stop the unproductive sniping and, as so many people are pleading with you to do, focus on the important issues.

  22. cornlegend

    What Albo said is about, and why 40 odd Micro and Independents are campaigning against the Greens
    Anthony Albanese MP

    “It says everything about this government that their final act is not to reform anything that helps average Australians; it is reform to help themselves.”

    My speech to the House of Representatives this afternoon about what the real aim of the Senate reform fix is – protecting the jobs of Liberal and Greens senators at the expense of our democracy

    https://video-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t43.1792-2/12819755_1133620746662000_1481617341_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjE1MDAsInJsYSI6MTgzMSwidmVuY29kZV90YWciOiJzdmVfaGQifQ%3D%3D&rl=1500&vabr=326&oh=9e95be040e7a45f61734d6949a0fcdff&oe=574004F8

  23. townsvilleblog

    Victoria, another great piece from you. The Greens began in a “leftie” way but I note that they have gone more to the centre under Di Natalie. They should be fighting against the reckless ideology of the LNP, instead they attack Labor, misguided priorities for sure. Australian workers need more people and parties on their side, refugees are NOT Australians, yes we need to consider the issue but for goodness sake as you quite rightly say there are many issues to consider. The Abbott/Turnbull perhaps Abbott again government needs to be gotten rid of. I will be voting Labor in the House and Lazarus in the Senate.

  24. kathysutherland2013

    As far as I’m concerned, the Greens are just another party. I used to think they had high principles, but now I’m not so sure. I certainly won’t put them last ( that honour will go to the Liberals!) but I need to do lots of research on all the candidates in my electorate. This voting thing is hard work!

  25. Jexpat

    LOL at “ace”

    I guess we had to have an old school LNP temper tanty (complete with baseless vitriol) to go along with the Labor’s enraptured whinging.

  26. Kaye Lee

    townsvilleblog,

    You will be electing 12 Senators for your state. You need to think beyond Lazarus. By all means include him but investigate further.

    cornie,

    Rather than railing about the past, how about educating the electorate about Senate candidates and encouraging people to vote below the line.

    Victoria,

    Asylum seekers is an issue that has been blown out of all proportion for political purposes but it is nevertheless something that concerns many people throughout the community. Labor has decided to align with the Coalition on this issue and are not vocal enough about the differences between their policies. They have also offered no solution for those currently incarcerated offshore.

    I truly don’t care about preference deals and who runs candidates where. I have full control of my vote.

  27. Bighead1883

    Moron English May 21, 2016 at 12:32 pm

    So dickhead is fine with this moderator?

  28. Michael Taylor

    Well you did call her pathetic. I think that most people would respond with some angst.

  29. Michael Taylor

    But no, I don’t think it was appropriate to call you a dickhead, or you to follow it up by calling her a moron. However, you put your toe in the water first so I guess you have to wear it.

    Perhaps we can all move on and talk about the issue instead.

  30. Bighead1883

    OH FFS have a look at the prerequisite created angst and treatment these creatures do Trish Corry and Victoria Rollinson because of pro Labor writing
    If you are just a pro Greens publication declare so Michael

  31. Michael Taylor

    That was a silly comment and you know it. To suggest that is just a pro Greens publication is ludicrous. You know for a fact that I’ve voted Labor because I told you do.

    Anyway, I’m heading out now so I’ll have to rely on other moderators. If you don’t like the tone of the comments directed at you then perhaps you should throw the first stone.

  32. Jexpat

    Bighead:

    This piece was by no stretch of the imagination “pro-Labor,” in either content or effect.

  33. Nick Chugg

    Honestly, you call this journalism? lol
    Funny how you mentioned absolutely nothing about Labor waging an election war against the Greens. lol
    A real academic would also state their own personal political preference. Luckily you ave made it obvious enough through this propaganda piece.
    The Greens potentially doing a deal with the LNP – you surely have to be joking. On the political spectrum, and policy-wise, the Greens are diametrically opposed to the LNP. Having at look at the political compass from last election, the bigger worry is Labor doing a deal with the LNP.

    How many times did the Greens vote with the LNP in the senate? 3!!
    How many times have Labor voted with the LNP? At least 23!!! Labor voted and sided with the LNP on some extremely draconian legislation, data retention, detention without charge, increased powers for the police regarding the tranche of terrorist legislation. Basically Labor has voted with the LNP on some of the worst pieces of legislation every tabled and passed in the Australian Federal parliament!

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2013

  34. paolo soprani

    The Greens, to me, when I listen to what they have to say, and the policies they espouse, are the only political party, apart from the Australian Sex Party, that seem to make any sense whatsoever, and who seem to have any integrity. I can only vote for a party that has integrity. The Coles and Woolies political parties are finished, and are being cast aside just as Uber is demolishing the taxi industry. Sure, the dreadful Coalition may win in the coming months but they are all dead men walking. And I will never forgive Labor and Kim Beazley for rolling over with The Tampa. Finished them, and me, forever. And I am fortunate to live in inner Melbourne where my local member is a Green. So I can have this opinion, and rail and write against the dreadful Coalition at the same time.

  35. cornlegend

    Kaye Lee
    “how about educating the electorate about Senate candidates and encouraging people to vote below the line.”
    I am and will continue to do so for the next 5 weeks while on the road
    There are good Independents and Micros amongst the 40 who rallied against the Greens and these are who we will be pushing for.
    We will be distributing “how to votes” {non ALP approved} encouraging 12 below the line and that will comprise ALP and Micros
    We will also be doing an above the line card, as I assume that will continue to be the voters choice

  36. Backyard Bob

    Nick,

    Honestly, you call this journalism? lol

    Strawman alert. Honestly, no-one called it journalism. It’s an opinion piece posted on a left-leaning political blog. That’s all. Mind you, the points you make about legislation voting practices are quite reasonable.

  37. Jexpat

    Cornlegend has apparently forgotten about the Steven Fielding debacle.

    That one cost the nascent Rudd govenment the ability to follow through with several important campaign promises.

    I suppose some sorts just can’t help being their own worst enemies.

  38. cornlegend

    JexpatMay 21, 2016 at 2:14 pm

    “Cornlegend has apparently forgotten about the Steven Fielding debacle.”
    Oh no I haven’t, who could forget that cock up
    I don’t mind owning up to blunders

    Sort of reminds you of the Greens own dirty deal doesn’t it?

    “A Greens preference deal has snared votes for Sarah Hanson-Young while funneling preferences to conservative former HR Nicholls Society board member Bob Day, who has the effective balance of power.”
    The Greens’ right-wing preference strategy in South Australia has come home to roost with a re-elected Sarah Hanson-Young gifting Tony Abbott’s good mate and conservative Family First candidate Bob Day the Senate balance of power

    It’s Family First’s Day thanks to Greens preferences in Senate race

  39. Catherine Deveny

    I don’t vote Greens.
    I don’t vote Greens.
    I don’t vote Greens.

    This is HILARIOUS!

  40. kathysutherland2013

    Kaye Lee is right – the senate vote is important. I’ll be making my own how-to-vote card, as usual, to try and control my vote. I’d love to get rid of Eric Abetz, but, sadly, I only have one vote.

  41. Jexpat

    Cornlegend:

    Bob Day never had balance of power (Fielding of course, actually did- and actually wielded it to our detriment).

    Even so, you’re correct: these sort of games can be self defeating- at times precipitously so, which was precisely my point.

    So it’s generally wise not to play them.

  42. Catherine Deveny

    I I don’t vote Greens. I don’t vote Greens. I don’t vote Greens. I don’t vote Greens. I don’t vote Greens. I don’t vote Greens. I don’t vote Greens.

  43. cornlegend

    “So it’s generally wise not to play them”
    and what games precisely were you on about?

  44. Miriam English

    I’ll still be voting under the line and giving Greens and Labor highest votes, along with Online Direct Democracy, Sex Party and a sprinkling of independents as most progressives will, despite Victoria’s irresponsible vitriol.

    I doubt Labor will be able to win without the Greens voters. Some of the diehard Labor people here should take note of that. I’m absolutely certain LNP strategists have.

    I would like the Greens and Labor to form a coalition of their own to fight reliably against the right-wing loons, but while we have such venom from Labor people it is sadly not likely to happen.

  45. Jexpat

    You know perfectly well: those outlined in your post, which could cost us a Fielding or two or worse- and control of the Senate to LNP allies.

    A scenario that presumably most (though possibly not all) here would want to avoid.

  46. David Spry

    The current conduct of Di Natalie and his cohorts reminds me strongly of the Democrats under Meg Lees. They are prepared to sacrifice the general thrust of their policies and publicised principles for the sake of parliamentary advancement.

    Like Meg Lees the deals they make give them no hope of gaining real political power and are focused on getting greater status for their minority position.

    They might claim that their strategy against Labor has the goal of furthering their policies, but in reality their strategy of guaranteeing a return of an LNP majority government will ensure that many of the policies they claim to hold dear will not be implemented.

    The Greens have always competed for votes with the ALP and they know that they are extremely unlikely to draw votes from LNP supporters. If the election was just a competition for the padded seats in parliament then a fight with the ALP seems justifiable.

    By reducing Labor seats and supporting retention of the LNP majority Di Natalie et al are supporting the policy status quo. Even in the unlikely event that they obtained the balance of power in the Senate they will not be able to change existing policies on:-

    Asylum seekers and their detention;

    Protection of the Great Barrier Reef (James Cook Uni researchers last week said the next 5 years are critical for action);

    Control of Coal Seam Gas Fracking;

    Land Clearing; and a host of other “green” policies.

    By making the ALP their enemy they are less likely to have a positive working relationship with them in any parliament, and for all the beating of breasts about certain policies, the Greens will always be closer to Labor across the full range of policies.

    I do not doubt the sincerity of the Greens party faithful and the principles they pursue, but it is those very principles that will not be served by the current aims of their leaders.

    A Greens majority is just a pipe dream and with examples of popular principled independents like Andrew Wilkie the dream has become even more distant.

    If the Greens are to act responsibly for the betterment of Australia and the fulfilment of their own policies they cannot support the return of the LNP.

    In the matter of asylum seeker policy, of the two major parties there is far more backbench and grass roots dissent in the ALP, and the hope of the Greens influencing that policy has far more chance of success with a Labor government than with the LNP.

    I have never had party affiliations and over the years I have voted for both ALP and Greens candidates as seemed appropriate.

    The cynical self-serving of the current Greens hierarchy, claiming the moral high ground relating to asylum seekers in order to take seats from Labor, whilst having to be aware that the outcome is an almost certain continuation of the policy under the LNP, means that if I care about the issues listed above and many others based upon fairness, equality and responsibility for people and places, I will have to ensure that the Greens appear much lower on my ballot paper than would normally be the case.

    The proclamation of principles is not enough, the true measure is in their successful application in the real world.

  47. Kaye Lee

    Anyone who has been married knows that, if you are going to rehash past grievances endlessly, you are going to have a lot of grief.

    I am pleased you will be encouraging below the line voting in the Senate cornie, but I think the war against the Greens is detrimental to the cause. I think the Greens have also said and done silly things. I just wish the distractions would stop – they are counterproductive in my opinion. Party people might have grievances against each other but they are unimportant in comparison to the existential threat we face from a returned Coalition government.

  48. Jexpat.

    David Spry:

    Here we go again with the nonsensical spin.

    It really is like some (and not just here, today) are either wholly iignorant of how their own political system works- or are congenitally inclined to be disengenous (or perhaps, LNP supporters attempting to sow discord). Hard to know.

    Let me explain it in simple terms: in a mandatory preferencing election, in order for a liberal to take progressive or in some cases marginal seats a Green voter or a Labor voter would have preference the Liberal or National higher than the Green and Labor Candidates.

    That’s it- all the other rambling above are irrelevant, unless out of spite (or obsession or misunderstanding) a Labor voter or a Greens voter wants so dearly to “punish” the other party that they’re willing, in essence, to vote for the LNP.

    Unfortuately, there appear to be several here who seem willing to do just that.

  49. cornlegend

    Kaye Lee
    The Greens to me are nothing more than another political party out to gain votes to push their own agenda .
    I have no problem with that, but to me they are just another opposing political party and will be treated as such.
    I have no time for the Greens, {or Liberal, National, Hanson, Pup etc} as they are all out htere pushing their agenda and trying to attract voters .
    I am out there campaigning for the ALP and some decent Micros and hope to secure a vote for them .
    The Greens and others are doing the same thing.
    I owe them no favours, and in fact think some of the micros would in fact be a good coalition to work with Labor, not in some formal alliance, but on individual policy

  50. Kaye Lee

    I must reiterate, we are all in control of our OWN preferences. Has advertising and marketing blinded everybody? Do you really think that your endless junk mail determines for whom I will vote? Do you think those portrait placards that increasingly invade the space I live in will make me vote for someone?

    Tell me about your policies, and even dare to talk about suggestions for future discussion. Stop telling me how much you hate the other guy.

  51. Backyard Bob

    Following on from Jexpat’s point, I found this bit in Victoria’s article curious:

    Unless you put the Liberals last – or at least below Labor – you are effectively voting for them.

    I mean, in the real-world, fair-dinkum stakes, what leftist or progressive type isn’t going to actually do this? What sort of person who identifies with either of those labels isn’t going to do this very thing [put the LNP last], regardless of the current political argy-bargy between Labor and Greens?

    Well, guess who might actually be that way inclined! – centrist/conservative Labor voters who have been convinced that the Greens are the devil incarnate. And, ironically, convinced by Labor progressives pushing this very agenda. It’s as if certain Labor Party members and public advocates don’t even understand their own Party and the extent of its ideological and cultural diversity.

    For God’s sake just let the Greens be what they wish to be. Let them compete with Labor for Labor seats. It will not hurt Labor for this to happen – unless! – unless this crew of anti-Green types convince enough centrist Labor voters to preference conservative candidates, if not the LNP themselves, above the Greens.

    For me, that’s the real danger in this current rhetoric.

  52. Matters Not

    to gain votes to push their own agenda …. out htere pushing their agenda and trying to attract voters .

    Yep they are trying to push an ‘agenda’. Perhaps a set of policies?

    On the other hand.

    out there campaigning for the ALP and some decent Micros and hope to secure a vote for them

    One gets the clear impression, it’s all about the ‘party’ while the ‘agenda’ pursued (the policies) are somewhat secondary. It’s all about the ‘party’. Right or wrong.

    The ‘means’ (political parties) have become the ‘ends’ in themselves. Sad!

  53. cornlegend

    ‘agenda’ is their set of policies
    I thought maybe you’d realise that
    You can try your own literal interpretation but the show goes on

  54. Jagger

    Progressives versus progressives , no wonder the LNP is confident of winning the election, they throw a bone and the so- called progressives want to fight over it. Poor, poor country.

  55. clarelhdm

    dear me Victoria, same song, different verse apparently. You are the one who is fixated on Green’s bashing, and it seems to be a never ending story with you. I would first preference Labor if they had any bollocks, and I do think that their asylum seeker ‘policy’ is a deal breaker. It’s like your child dating someone who is basically a really nice person, much better than your average jock or barbie doll, but just happens to be a bit of an accessory to murder. Higher order consideration. Over-shadows everything else. Call me privileged and blinkered if you like, but those on Manus and Nauru need someone to say that their lives matter.

  56. cornlegend

    clarelhdm
    and is electing one Green to the HOR going to change that?
    Their current 0.66% of H.O.R numbers might mske you feel warm and fuzzy but will gain diddly squat

  57. Keitha Granville

    agree with those who compare Di Natale with Meg Lees. And sadly I think it will take them down the same road unless Green supporters – and I have been in that camp since the Franklin Dam – tell their leaders and members how they feel and what they want. And then also make their own preferences up without anyone in the party telling them what to do. I will be voting Labor for the Reps and the Senate this time as I see that to be the only way to give them the best chance of forming government. It is ridiculous that the 2 parties on the left of centre are fighting with each other – this is simply a gift to those on the right. Think about the end game, and go from there.
    We MUST turf this mob on July 2nd or we are on our way to being a little USA.
    And for the asylum seeker issue – those on Manus and Nauru have NO chance now, in spite of a populace who want things changed. -The only chance they have is if we get a Labor government in and THEN we can force a change of heart. Totally pointless to not support them because they have 1 policy that we hate. We can only change them when they are in power.

  58. Michael Taylor

    I’m with you on that one, Miriam. I’d also like to see them form a coalition. If they did, they’d take government easily.

    There would be a zillion issues to work on before that happened, but nonetheless, a coalition between Labor and the Greens – despite the teething problems – would still make a hell of a better government than the LNP. I guess we’ve got to get rid of them first and take it from there.

    I’m also a big fan of a number of independents, by the way.

  59. kathysutherland2013

    Me too, Michael Taylor. I live in Denison. Andrew Wilkie seems to have some principles.

  60. clarelhdm

    dear cornlegend, no where in my message did I mention voting Green. You assumed that. I talked about why many won’t first preference Labor. I’m a bit old school: I won’t vote for someone whose policy I don’t agree with. We have a representative government…it really isn’t up to me to say what ‘difference’ one or more Green candidates in the HOR will make. It is up to me to support someone who represents my views. Labor does not. Basically none of the alternatives make me feel warm and fuzzy, and your insulting my concern regarding asylum seekers by denigrating it as some sort of need, of mine, to feel emotionally content, is about on the level of Mal’s misty-eyed comment. Pretty much calling me a overly emotional woman.

  61. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Just one question,

    why do people, who rightly want to see the Greens and Labor acting as friends so they demolish the LNP on 2 July, refer to that preferred scenario as a ‘coalition’ and not the Alliance?

    I would have thought it better to distance ourselves from the odious LNP Coalition nomenclature. Just asking.

    My vote is going to Labor or the Greens as long as I am convinced their reciprocal votes will preference each other. And, I will ensure the Liberals are last and the Nats 2nd last.

  62. Jane

    The greens have a track record with this type of one upmanship. We could have locked in Carbon trading with Rudd all those years ago when the Greens wouldn’t budge. “The Search for Perfection is all very well but to look for heaven is to live here in hell,” To quote Sting.
    I agree with Victoria. There is only one real cancer and that’s theLNP.

  63. cornlegend

    Michael,
    “I’d also like to see them form a coalition. If they did, they’d take government easily.”

    they’d take government easily.”
    How did you come up with that conclusion?

  64. Michael Taylor

    Cornie, it was said without a lot of thought. More on hope I guess.

  65. David Spry

    Jexpat.

    Do you actually have the figures that show that if a Greens candidate is eliminated and their second preference is to the LNP that the Labor candidate will not be adversely affected?
    Deeply dividing the non-LNP vote in order to defeat a rival can only be achieved by not preferencing that rival – vote Green 1 and don’t preference Labor. If the primary non-LNP vote is split and the Greens are eliminated and their preferences then go to the LNP could this not put the LNP candidate ahead of Labor?
    In the past Green preferences have tended to go to Labor ahead of the LNP. The point at issue is what happens if Green voters follow some of their leaders and put defeating Labor ahead of defeating the LNP?

  66. bossa

    Anyone who gets a glowing reference from chief LNP wanker Michael Kroger must surely be on the nose. (Yes that was a reference to Kroger’s Karl-Malden-Class proboscis). Sadly, I can actually remember that clown from when he was a Young Liberal.

  67. Miriam English

    Jennifer, that was me. I confess wasn’t really thinking on names, just the end result. I think in the minds of most Greens- and Labor-voting folks it already is an alliance. Just a few angrily fixated Labor voters and unreasonably single-minded Greens voters don’t think so.

    Thinking more about the names, it occurs to me that it would be lovely to steal away the name “Coalition” from the LNP. 🙂 But yeah, I know that’s impractical. Alliance would be better. However with people spreading hate it’s not likely to happen anyway, whether coalition or alliance. A pity. Turnbull would be delighted at Victoria’s foam-flecked outburst and how it incites progressives to work against their own interests.

    I normally have a lot of respect for Victoria.

    Just sad.

  68. Backyard Bob

    David,

    The point at issue is what happens if Green voters follow some of their leaders and put defeating Labor ahead of defeating the LNP?

    For me, the converse of that is equally troubling:

    The point at issue is what happens if Labor voters follow some of their leaders and put defeating Greens ahead of defeating the LNP?

  69. bossa

    @David Spry

    The policies of The Greens are my policies too, it’s just that they are being used in the current context as bait to defeat an ally instead of an enemy. The policies they, supposedly, uphold have no chance of success if LNP are returned, and, with the accelerated demise of the natural world that brings, they never will.

    I’ve been a Greens voter for over 20 years, but now, I refuse to vote for a party who is prepared to weaken the chances of the very party who created this country just so they can become the alternative opposition. DLP ring any bells folks?

    Di Natali, hopefully you’re reading this, you can EFF OFF. You will get no money or my vote this time around.

  70. Kaye Lee

    Why on earth do any of you care about preferences. I hate to sound like a broken record but we all have the ability to direct our OWN preferences. I get the sinking feeling that many people do not understand this.

  71. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    From what I see and hear, I think we ALL have a good opportunity to demolish the LNP. I really want to see their devastated faces as spiteful as that sounds. We can’t afford to bitch at each other any more. Any bitching I’ve done has been aimed at the destructive LNP or the earlier complacent Labor before they started to stir. Now they have stirred.

    I’m helping both the Greens and Labor in my electorate of McMillan. They know I am but I won’t continue, if I get any indication either won’t preference the other.

    I want Labor and Greens candidates along with a few other decent, progressive candidates from the Micro parties and independents to win sufficient seats to wipe the LNP out. Labor might win the majority, but I want Labor to see how much community support is out here for the other diverse political policy platforms.

    Just winning isn’t good enough. Labor must remember its friends and keep working for political reform and progress that suits us all. No sweetheart deals with Big Biz like filthy Adani at the expense of the Great Barrier Reef. No Great Forest sacrifices. No continuation of off-shore detention. No turning backs on vulnerable people on welfare.

    If Labor wins the right to the larger share of government, I don’t want them to get lethargic again on these issues. I want dynamic collaborative work with and for ALL the public. Labor’s first job will be declaring the implementation of a fully enforceable Federal ICAC,

  72. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Kaye is right. We can choose our own preferences. I will be. If however, for those who trust their Greens or Labor parties, just be careful they are preferencing either the Greens or Labor, and putting the Liberals and the Nationals last.

  73. Kim Wright

    Will I won’t I reply…such a disappointment AIMN.I have been a supporter since your first article..I think I may even still be a paid up subscriber. I have posted and reposted so that people had an opportunity to think and consider different views. I didn’t always agree with them but I believe in people making up their own mind. But this article is truly not to your standard. One candidate tweets, makes an article. The many olive branches put out by the leadership to Labor don’t warrant discussion. I read a lot on the net and there seems to be some myth that this is some sort of equal battle ground..it is and hasn’t been. The abuse that roles on pages to the Greens is ugly and very disappointing,,,,and in all honesty does nothing to garner support for their party. To cut to the chase the Greens Leadership, like all political Leaders role is to grow and develop their parties in line with their memberships wishes…probably more so The Greens as they have a grassroots format for decision making. This means going for achievable seats, increasing their numbers in both Houses. The Greens are not the lackeys of Labor…but everything I have read and heard on the net suggests that the Greens and their membership would be prepared to work Labor……and yes that would mean negotiating what is important to them. What no one seems to get is that the vast majority of Greens voters have historically preferenced Labor…getting them over the line on a number of occasions. The Greens Leadership has clearly noted they cannot imagine any Greens group preferencing LNP on their how to vote….but as others have mentioned that is irrelevant..Greens voters like all voters have the capacity and responsibility to choose their own preferences.

  74. Miriam English

    bossa, you’re getting your knickers all tied in a knot over Victoria’s hit-piece? Relax, please. The Greens are still a progressive party still strongly committed to the same things they ever were. They vote against the LNP far more than Labor does, so any deals with the LNP are likely in Victoria’s imagination.

    Labor seems to be waking up to what their constituents really want. They have always been a progressive party, even if they lost their way a little bit. I think they’re coming back on track. It wouldn’t surprise me if they changed refugee policy to a humane solution after the election. Unfortunately, given the rampant racism unleashed by the LNP and mainstream media they’re unlikely to do so before the election. Regrettable, but understandable.

    As Kaye and Jennifer say, we can choose our own preferences. Vote Labor and Greens in the two lead places, however suits you best, then other parties in descending importance to you. Vote below the line, number at least 12.
    Don’t number the LNP — not even as number 12.

    Control your own vote.

  75. cornlegend

    You know, sometimes you are damned if you do, damned if you don’t in the Labor Green discussion.
    Some want warm and fuzzy, so, take them by the throat .
    An article 2013 as an example
    A soft Green underbelly
    LABOR could have destroyed the Greens if it had chosen to preference against them.

    Instead, it has made a stunning admission of weakness with the weekend announcement that it will put the Greens second in the Senate in every state except Queensland — an admission of weakness that will only prolong more than two decades of pain for the party, causing division and damaging its electoral appeal.
    Instead of exploiting the Greens’ greatest weakness, Labor has said it will help them overcome it. That weakness is reaching a Senate quota, the magic 14.3 per cent of the vote in the states or 33.3 per cent in the territories that sees a senator elected.

    Last election saw the Greens score their highest vote ever. Yet preferences were needed to get most over the line.

    The Greens achieved a quota in Tasmania and Victoria.

    But they fell short in West Australia, where they achieved only 90 per cent. In Queensland it was 83 per cent, in South Australia 80 per cent and in NSW, 70 per cent.

    The Greens need preferences — particularly since Newspoll has consistently shown their vote well down on its 2010 levels for much of the past three years.

    Labor has come riding to the party’s rescue.
    hree Greens are up for re-election at the poll: Peter Whish-Wilson in Tasmania, Sarah Hanson-Young in SA and Scott Ludlam in Western Australia.

    Hanson-Young is struggling. She and popular local independent Nick Xenophon will battle it out for the state’s sixth senate spot. Even with Labor’s preference decision, she faces an uphill fight. But a tougher preference play from Labor could have guaranteed her fate, and perhaps also ended Ludlam’s career.

    The Greens would have been down to seven senators. Some further hardball at the 2016 election — when six of those seven would face election — could see their numbers reduced to two or three.

    They would become a fringe grouping. Worse, they would lack official party status and the extra staff and resources that brings. They would be emasculated.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/a-soft-green-underbelly/story-e6frg6z6-1226699521530

  76. Brad

    So much for cooperation on matters more important than tactical wins, wedging and one upmanship. The country has a quickly narrowing opportunity, along with the rest of the world, to get things right before we reach the point of no return regarding global warming and what’s getting in the way? political games. A quick glance down this list of comments yells me how divisive they can be.
    I shake my head!

  77. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Miriam is right too. If however, you are so inclined and want to number ALL the 100-odd candidates for the Senate below-the-line, you would be wise to put the Liberals last and the Nats 2nd last.

    OK Brad, we’re not all playing political games. Some are actually trying to find solutions to get rid of the LNP so we can combat global warming in our most effective way.

  78. mars08

    The willingness of the ALP to do deals with the government? Doesn’t that worry anyone?

  79. Michael Taylor

    Kim, thank you for your support. We truly appreciate it.

    Most people here don’t like seeing anti-Greens (or for that matter anti-Labor) articles but I (and all at The AIMN) will never discourage our authors from writing what they want to write about. We may not personally share that view, but that is an aside.

    If we instructed our authors to write about such and such only, then we might as well all try and get a job with Murdoch.

    I can’t predict what’s going to be published in the next week, or the next month, but it’s a fairly safe bet that the articles will be back attacking the government. 🙂

  80. Athena

    Bwahahaha! Victoria obviously hasn’t been following numerous other articles here at AIMN, where Greens supporters have voiced their support for the Greens and ALP working together (as have the Greens politicians themselves), only to be howled down by rusted on ALP supporters bleating that there will not be any partnership with the Greens, and quoting various ALP politicians on the matter. But Victoria never misses an opportunity for a shot at the Greens. She must be worried that the ALP isn’t going to win.

    @cornlegend & bighead1883

    Richard Di Natale posted this on his Facebook page yesterday.

    “Hi folks,
    I wanted to respond to the disappointing beat up about my family’s farm and au pairs we have hired in the past.
    I want to start by saying really clearly – the media beat up is just wrong.
    I have a little farm as some of you would know, and from the moment I took office the farm was declared. Because it’s a small working farm I declared it under my interests as a business interest and under Lucy’s name as well.
    One of the reasons the register of interests exists is to ensure there is transparency around what politicians own and that there is no conflict of interest in the course of our work as pollies. Lucy and I have a small farm, we have a house in Melbourne that we bought when you could still afford to buy in the city, and we have a mortgage.
    I believe it’s important to know what assets Members of Parliament own. People should know if you have fifty properties and they are negatively geared because you might have a conflict of interest if you are making policy decisions regarding negative gearing, for example.
    The accusations regarding au pairs who were living and working in our home are also untrue.
    Lucy and I live out on the farm so child care options are pretty limited. When we had our two boys, Lucy decided she wanted to get back into the workforce and so we needed some help with the kids for about 25 hours a week when Lucy was at work.
    We went to a specialist employment agency to get some advice on pay rates and based on that advice we offered a package of close to $500 for 25 hours a week including rent, meals and sundries.
    What the newspaper did, was fail to take into account accommodation, meals and sundries. We had a really positive experience with au pairs, and were rigorous in making sure that we did the right thing by them. That’s why this story is so disappointing.
    Today I’m looking forward to announcing a massive boost to science and research funding. I’m going to be in Melbourne with Adam talking about our $64 billion investment in science and innovation right through to the end of the decade. Watch out for that.
    Thanks for your support,
    Richard.”

  81. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Thanks Athena,

    for helping to put the record straight pertaining to Di Natale.

  82. cornlegend

    Will respond monday, off to an ALP fundraiser

  83. Miriam English

    And be careful who you vote for. I believe the LNP are going to be putting out some fake independents who will actually be LNP people. Last time there were heaps of fake parties that got Tony Abbott into power.

    The LNP will be employing every dirty trick in the book, including trying to make progressives fight against each other.

    Please be careful with your vote.

  84. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    cornlegend,

    your response suffices. Go to your ALP fundraiser and remind your comrades that there are thousands more out here in the backblocks who care for the Greens and ALP too, and who adamantly want CHANGE of government with a reputable government that is made up the ALP, the Greens, and other sympathetic parties who want Progress and Reform.

    Policies and Progress before Parties.

  85. Athena

    “The Greens to me are nothing more than another political party out to gain votes to push their own agenda .”

    *facepalm* What a freaking revelation. They’re all out to gain votes to push their own agenda.

  86. Gangey1959

    Wow. That is a lot of heavy reading.
    Bugger, bum, bitch, witch, shit, front-bum. That takes care of the language issue. (I learned that in grade one.)
    Michael T. Rule 303 is always an option.
    Now for MY two bob’s worth.
    I think kathysutherland2013 at 12.49 said it all. Personally, I wondered WTF when dinatale sided with those to the speakers right (Some call them the government but I beg to differ) on the issue of senate voting reform. It will bite the Greens in the arse big time and it will cost Australia as a whole.
    The entire Pythonesque campaign is going to get dirtier and uglier than ever, as evidenced by the AFP action last week. (Like that wasn’t planned well in advance. I’m sure they were hiding in the bushes for weeks waiting for the GO whistle)
    I am expecting a ‘Rescue Package if we are re-elected’ from the lnp about June 20 for the Dairy Farmers, just to show Australians that they are aware of what is happening and can make decisions etc etc bullshit bullshit bullshit. Shortarse needs to come up with something NOW to steal barneyandturbott’s thunder and throw them off track. (A full strike at Fonterra wouldn’t hurt either. Nothing in, nothing out)
    Uncle muckraker hasn’t even started to get involved yet. My sympathies to the footballers with career ending injuries, and Hawthorn’s Jarryd Roughead’s really tragic cancer news, but stop taking up the front pages. There is mud to sling and lies to tell, and history to misrepresent.
    I am quite aware that this is NOT a lnp leaning forum, Everyone needs to just calm down a bit and allow us all our opinions without too much vilification. Let’s wait for NoS to pull silly head out of his arse, then we can all have a swing at leisure.
    Just remember, on July 2, VOTE LIBERAL / NAT LAST. It’s all we have to do. That, and fill in ll the squares below the line on the senate ticket.
    By for now. My pizza’s here. The guy at the local shop has only one eye, but makes a brilliant pizza.
    Manana amigos e amicas.
    ( I started this at 6:15. Shit)

  87. Kim Wright

    Point taken Michael Taylor

  88. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    🙂 Gangey

  89. Pamela

    well this type of article does the ALP no favours and frankly I’m sick of this type of hysteria and smearing that is going on by ALP supporters, when the Greens have said they would be willing to work with the ALP… yoou seem to forget they are a separate party and have every right to oppose the ALP for seats… thank you for this article Victoria you have just talked me into NOT voting for the ALP…ever!!

  90. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Pamela,

    please use your vote for the Greens and any other party or Independent that is clearly putting the Libs last plus their mates in the Nats and other neolib pretenders.

  91. Miriam English

    Pamela, don’t let Victoria get under your skin. Labor are better than she makes them out to be. Plenty of Labor supporters are more progressive than that. I’m a Greens voter, but always vote Labor too. Yes, Labor have made some pretty horrendous decisions lately, but including them in your vote is the best way to displace the bastards currently in power. Don’t forget to use all 12 of your votes below the line. Just don’t number the LNP or any of their shady henchmen.

  92. kathysutherland2013

    Pamela, I think we need to make our decisions based on our careful research into candidates and their policies in our electorates, not by reacting to others’ comments.

  93. Jennifer G

    I was out and about in Batman today and, frankly, the conviction that replacing sitting Labor members with Greens will magically help asylum seekers has me flabber totally gasted.
    For every seat Labor loses, they have to win one from the Libs or Nats. If that were so easy, the Greens might do it.

    As to the coalition or alliance: Julia Gillard formed government with the support of 2 indies and 1 Green. The Greens have never admitted that they contributed to the destruction of that government, which they walked away from. Labor has been thoroughly punished, the 2 indies left parliament and the Greens are Green, still bashing Labor, making it clear that they want to replace Labor and then talking as tho they are the reasonable ones.
    Do you really expect Labor to line up for another “alliance”?
    I have to wonder whether Greens talking about such an “alliance” are being naive or mischievous. You see, to form government a party needs to win seats from all contenders and leave the inner city to appeal to voters 10+ k from the CBD. Outside the inner city the Greens get around 2% of the primary vote.

  94. Athena

    “Do you really expect Labor to line up for another “alliance”? I have to wonder whether Greens talking about such an “alliance” are being naive or mischievous.

    I can’t decide whether you’re having a go at the Greens or telling Victoria that her article is shite.

  95. David

    Jennifer G I smiled…that will get em going again, cheers

  96. Jaquix

    It occurs to me that too much emphasis is placed on the past – eg the Greens did this in 2009, Labor did that in 2010. Both parties now have completely different leaders which must make a difference. Times change. Peoples attitudes change. Plus they have a truly bad common enemy in the LNP. Parties always deny in advance that they would negotiate with another to get the numbers (in the event of a tight finish) but you can bet your bottom dollar that they will if they need to. Bill Shorten has negotiated all his life, its inconceivable he would stop now. Di Natali is a bit of a loose cannon, but he too would surely see where the future lay, and do a deal.

  97. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Oh, well done David,

    for fanning the flames. Congrats. Don’t expect any of us, Labor and Greens together to thank you for helping to build obstacles to a New Government’s win over this useless LNP monstrosity.

    While the asylum seeker and detainees in Labor and LNP made gulags is a predominant issue, duh, there are other prominent issues that Labor has been slack on.

    Remember, impoverished Newstart recipients or single Mums taken off better paid family supports???

  98. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Jennifer G,

    perhaps you could examine Feeny a little closer. This is the parachuted Labor representative in Batman, who did not previously live there. Examine how the Right faction of Labor manipulates their supporters and constituents so that they are made to accept somebody they may not have supported.

    Feeny also happens to be one of the main Right faction power brokers who manipulate party policy that does not address the wide spectrum of needs and spirit of our community.

    Feeny is not as bad as Dutton but I’m struggling to explain the difference.

  99. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear Jaquix,

    but I want more than mere political expedience from both of the morons.

  100. Conrad

    Victoria, I always give very great consideration because I consider you to be one of the most intelligent and clear-sighted political commentators on the Web. However, in this case I must state that I have reservations about your posting against the Greens.
    (1) The Greens have a right to plot their own survival strategy rather than always being subservient to the Labor Party (which of late has been infested by an ‘occupation’ by time serving mediocre people who have been self-seekers and very light on their left-of-centre credentials (some Labor MPs have been shockers))
    (2) Also, in the 2013 election the ALP did very smelly preference deals and in 15 electorates it put ratbag Rise Up Australia Party (which is against multiculturalism, abortion, marriage equality, and burqas) ahead of the Greens and other independents.
    (3) The Green how-to-vote card will not be directing voters to vote Liberal, and now with party symbols displayed on the voting paper it will be much clearer to left-leaning voters how to give minor preferences to Labor anyway.

  101. gee

    Oh Victoria. really? Sad to see an article of this nature a) from you and b) on this site.

  102. Wam

    Wow this has cleared some pipes. The green boys have embraced pragmatism and are prepared to accept short term collateral damage with a returned turnball government for the long term ambition to be a coalition member with left, right or centre.
    They have cleverly silenced the green women and why not because it is good to have ambitions???
    ps
    Pamela listen to JMS she is a clutch pragmatist in any vote in a storm.
    pps great to read emasculation and Di Natali loose cannon

  103. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I was wondering when Wam was going to pay me back for calling IT a robot!

  104. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Thanks (Not) Victoria,

    for the vitriolic article that has forced many of us to waste our time fighting trouble makers who don’t care if we win or lose the upcoming election.

    The focus should be on outing the LNP from government before they destroy everything we hold dear. Then we can improve further, so that we have a true working Alliance that brings institutional reform and progress.

  105. Keith

    The Greens are pushing climate change as the most crucial matter that must be tackled; nothing matters if that is not sorted out ( I’m not a member of any political party).

    For 2015, NOAA indicated that the global radiative forcing taking into account all greenhouse gases is 2.974 Watts/per square meter. NSW has 809,444 billion square meters; when 809,444 billion is multiplied by 2.974 a huge amount of energy is created. NSW is a fairly small portion of the globe. It has been stated that the energy created is equivalent to 4 Hiroshima bombs going off per second.

    Mona Loa has measured CO2 at 407.6 ppm in 2016, the rate of increase in CO2 should it remain the same will mean that before two decades have elapsed it will be at 450 ppm.

    We cannot afford to have the LNP elected as they really don’t have a policy on climate change. Labor must create a much more stringent policy. Regardless of how to vote cards, Labor voters are best served to give Greens their second preference, and Greens provide Labor with their second preference in my opinion.

    If we are serious about wanting to tackle climate change then we need some kind of Marshall Plan.
    A few examples, no new coal mines, existing mines closed as quickly as possible, fracking stopped, reduce speeds vehicles may drive on highways, discourage airlines; these are exceptionally unpopular. These ideas create hellish circumstances for many people and are impractical ; however, if we do not take a survival mode and just make a few modifications, then we are stuffed.

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/aggi.html

  106. Adrianne Haddow

    An excellent, well- articulated contribution Keith.
    Straight to the heart of the matter and the difference between the parties.
    We need to minimise the damage done to our environment, our air quality and our water quality, and we need to do it soon.

  107. Matters Not

    Labor voters are best served to give Greens their second preference, and Greens provide Labor with their second preference in my opinion.

    Beg to disagree. There’s absolutely no chance that the Greens will form government or even win a significant number of HOR seats. Putting the Greens second to Labor will go ‘straight through to the keeper’ in terms of political recognition because no-one will ever know (in the counting wash-up) or recognise their ‘influence’. Putting the Greens first with second preference to Labor will cause Labor to rethink their priorities. The ‘looming’ threat and all that.

    Parties are but a means to an end. Certainly not an end in themselves. Let’s start voting for policies rather that parties, given their recent track record. Remember the neo-liberal ideology promotion is down to Labor.

    That’s why I will vote Green with Labor as second preference.

  108. Jennifer G

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith, equating Feeney with Dutton is ridiculous, perhaps an example of the Greens cry “Labor is as bad as Coalition. Only greens are pure and never do anything wrong”
    Shall I tell you some differences? Feeney supports marriage equality, believes in climate change, promotes renewables, is not a racist, is not cruel, supports workers’ rights … must I go on?
    He would not have been my choice, but he works hard for the party and is proud of his exceptionally competent and successful wife.
    Alex B seems a nice enough woman, but really, what use would she be? What impact has Adam Bandt had on the current government’s policies? What impact have the 2 celebrated Greens in the Vic lower house had on Vic politics?

    Greens are kidding themselves if they really think they are going to legislate or fund anything.
    I have voted Green in the past, but during the Vic election 2 Greens candidates stood in public meetings and showed that they were either lying or they don’t know how Australian politics works.
    I am not willing to risk all that is good and worthwhile to give a parliamentary seat to a Green.

  109. Duffa

    Who is it that is being betrayed?
    It seems Ms Rollinson’s attitude is you have to either LNP or Labor, you not allowed to be anything else.
    In our virtual two party system it is easy to understand why.
    But neither of the two parties have all the answers. The LNP as conservatives are the natural party of government NOT because they are better but because people don’t like change (and many don’t like taxes).
    Labor do want change but they are scared to offer to much change because it is so hard to convince people of the need.
    On the anti-conservative side there are people who want more than Labor wants
    Labor in trying to be the alternative to the LNP tries to create an image of the sensible voice for change and that both conservatives and non-labor anti-conservatives are wrong. But instead of making their case they play the political game demonising the greens, in the same way the LNP does and in so doing in mimics the LNP.
    In the end it reinforces the two party system where there is little change as people generally don’t want change and those advocating big change are characterised as dangerous.
    If the Greens offer open preferences than that seems to be an honest expression that they can’t really support either party. To do otherwise seems to be a betrayal of their own supporters.
    If Labor wants change they just have to work harder at convincing the public of the need and the benefits and stop complaining about the Greens.

  110. nurses1968

    Matters Not
    “or recognise their ‘influence’”
    So vote for the Greens knowing they can’t win will never form Government, but give them some “influence”?
    Could that not also be argued for the Sex Party, Labour Coalition or any of the other parties, to acknowledge their influence or is it just a power thing with the Greens ?
    Duffa
    Parts of your response strike a chord with me
    “If the Greens offer open preferences than that seems to be an honest expression”
    Would you also advocate that Labor offer open preferences as well?
    If so, you have me onside as I feel it is time Labor “cut the cord”
    I would go so far as to support optional preferential voting and I would support that?
    Why should any voter have to tick a box of a party or candidate they dislike or would never vote for?

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith
    “Thanks (Not) Victoria,
    for the vitriolic article that has forced many of us to waste our time fighting trouble makers who don’t care if we win or lose the upcoming election.”
    If “we” win or lose?
    You have taken a dozen different stances over the past few months, have you settled on one in particular yet?
    Do you now give up on your coalition idea

  111. Duffa

    Nurses1968. The question of preferences is tricky. If the number of members of parliament reflected the party voted for, then preferences wouldn’t be needed at all. But how to do that, I’ve no idea. To follow the preferences ‘suggested’ by any party isn’t really giving much thought to the preferences so I don’t know if optional would be worse.

  112. corvus boreus

    Kaye Lee (5:36pm, 21/5),
    “I get the sinking feeling that many people do not understand this”.
    Ditto.
    General;
    If/when voting below the line on the senate ballot, voters do not have to follow any party allocations of preferences, nor follow the order in which the party places their own candidates (You don’t have to put Bullock over Pratt).
    Now we can simply number 12 or more candidates, in your own order of preference (with allowance for 5 errors), then toddle off and enjoy a steak sandwich.

    Voters do not have to play party games any more.

  113. Kaye Lee

    Thankfully Bullock decided he couldn’t run for a party that allowed deviants to marry. Good riddance to bad rubbish. The treatment of Louise Pratt and Lisa Singh by the Labor Party has been shameful.

  114. Miriam English

    nurses1968, from what I’ve seen Jennifer Meyer-Smith has been quite consistent in her stand. She wants the LNP gone. She wants to see Labor in power. And she sees the most reliable way to do that is with the help of the other progressive forces, the strongest of which are the Greens. She ideally would like an explicit Alliance between Labor and the Greens, or at least a de facto one. She feels there is a natural confluence of intentions between the progressive parties and progressive independents, and they should work together to get rid of this disastrous mob currently in power.

    What part of that could you possibly disagree with? Why the desire to pour scorn upon her?

  115. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Jennifer G,

    of course Feeny is not as bad as Dutton. Feeny is smart and Dutton is a zombie, who needs putting to rest. Feeny however, is what my post stated. My only crime was I compared him to an idiot instead of a manipulative, backroom dealmaker counterpart.

    You seem to be blissfully unaware of the fact that the defining differences between Labor and Greens are several important issues beside the humanitarian one of asylum seekers and gulag detainees.

    Have you considered those, who are languishing on Newstart, which Labor has ignored over their last terms of government and only now might be making a few murmurs about how it is “too low”? And, have you considered the multitude environmental issues being compounded by the preposterous dependence on the coal industry?

    Matters Not,

    I agree @ 11.05 pm last night for people who want their Greens vote to count while ensuring Labor gets the second benefit and NOT the LNP.

    nurses @ 6.50 am,

    who says the Greens can never win? That attitude would restrict any human endeavour. You obviously haven’t been reading my comments closely because I think it is abundantly clear I continue to advocate working together for the Alliance.

    Wake up nurses, if you’re going to throw mud, at least be accurate! 🙁

    Vote Greens #1, Labor #2 in the House of Reps.
    Vote 12 below the line in the Senate with the Greens at the top and a combination of Labor, Progressive Micro Parties eg the Australian Progressives, the Pirate Part – and sane Independents eg Muir, Mark Dickenson in Victoria, Wilkie and Lambie in Tassie, Lazarus in Qld.

  116. Anomander

    A very vocal and impassioned rant there Victoria. Thanks so much for propagating the overeducated, inner-city, latte sipping, Greens stereotype – much respect to you for that one.

    But… there are a few areas of your hysterical, diatribe I’d like to clarify:

    Are you saying that only the ALP have the right to compete for seats in any electorate?

    That no other parties should be allowed to challenge the ALP – because that’s not fair?

    If I’m reading correctly – no party should be allowed to run unless they have the wherewithal to govern in their own right?

    And because the Greens don’t fit this mould, they should just abandon their plans and get out of the way?
    To do anything different means you are a traitor and handing your vote to the Libs?

    Am I still on track here?

    So, all those people who are fed-up with the ALP continuously drifting further and further to the right – they should simply surrender and accept that as a fact of life – that there’s nothing we can do about it?

    That while the ALP may not be perfect, they are better than the Libs?

    That it is better to have to drink a cup of vomit than to eat a whole plate of shit?

    That the ALP are acting in our best interests in ignoring climate change?

    That the ALP are protecting Aussie jobs by supporting the CHAfta and the TPP?

    That they are merely doing what is good by allowing billions of dollars to flow through tax havens?

    That they are morally correct about locking people up in foreign hell-holes for years?

    I just realised, that is must be hard for Labor – being so perfect and all. With perfect supporters and perfect policies, which everyone should be made to get behind, without question.

    Those dissenting voices are hard work aren’t they?

    I can fully understand how it is so much easier to disparage them and their opinions, than it is to look inwardly and see the reason why those lifelong supporters are abandoning your party in droves, for a party that has a long-term vision, that has principles, who is willing to embrace change, does not take bribes, and above all cares for our environment and our future.

  117. Miriam English

    It would be wonderful to see the Greens in power. It would really reset the two big parties. LNP would have to stop being so viciously extremist and might even come to their senses sufficiently to drop-kick the IPA. Labor would go back to its core values and really start looking after ordinary Australians and the social and environmental issues of the day.

    Unfortunately I doubt there is any chance of that with King Rupert in power. Until he’s deposed the two main parties will be increasingly corrupted trying to placate him.

    King Rupert has made the LNP almost impossible to defeat, even with a bunch of inept half-wits running the show and ruining Australia’s economy and destroying the fabric of society. The only chance, as I see it, is for all the progressive forces to help each other to kick them out. Together we stand, divided we fall.

    The strategists in the LNP are, I’m certain, quite aware of this, so I expect we’ll see a number of faked up propaganda pieces in the Mainstream Media that attempt to break up any such alliance. Unfortunately those ignition points will be easy to turn into major conflagrations because of the brittle-dry hatred nurtured by otherwise sane people such as Victoria, Bighead1883, Nurses1968, and a number of others.

    Sadly, I have a sinking feeling this might be our last chance for a progressive government… ever. It’s now or never.

    One of my personal heroes, Benjamin Franklin, scientist, politician, writer, printer, philosopher said it well: “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

  118. corvus boreus

    Jennifer M-S,
    There are a few minor and Independent aspirants that I will be putting before any Greens candidates on my senate ballot.
    With the senate changes decreasing the likelihood of any minors gaining seats through preferencing, I think the worthier minnows need/deserve our priority to help to maintain an independent presence in the house of review.
    For Labor, the public silence and consistently disappointing voting performance of their current players on (for me crucial) matters like CSG (including owners’ right of refusal), political donations and a fed ICAC, earns them a blank space on my big sheet.
    (I had pondered throwing Jenny McAllister an encouragement vote based upon her potential, but when she visited this electorate she seemed much more interested in promotional photo ops than any public engagement to clarify policy.)

    As for my HoR vote, geographical demographics render it practically irrelevant.

  119. Athena

    “But… there are a few areas of your hysterical, diatribe I’d like to clarify:

    Are you saying that only the ALP have the right to compete for seats in any electorate?

    That no other parties should be allowed to challenge the ALP – because that’s not fair?

    If I’m reading correctly – no party should be allowed to run unless they have the wherewithal to govern in their own right?

    And because the Greens don’t fit this mould, they should just abandon their plans and get out of the way?
    To do anything different means you are a traitor and handing your vote to the Libs?

    Am I still on track here?”

    Anomander, you understood the message perfectly. 😉

  120. Athena

    “Jennifer Meyer-Smith….

    You have taken a dozen different stances over the past few months, have you settled on one in particular yet?
    Do you now give up on your coalition idea”

    Nurses1968, do you troll these articles looking for posts from Jennifer just to have something to attack? It sure seems like it. Jennifer hasn’t changed her view and it appears you haven’t read Victoria’s rant either.

  121. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Thanks Athena.

    corvus boreus,

    I acknowledge your wise comments regarding the Senate but even if making any difference in the House of Reps looks like a daunting impossibility in your electorate, your vote is still counted for your party of choice and makes its own statement, if there’s any rise and swing against the incumbent.

    Let’s live in hope for better things to come even in the forgotten, non-marginal seats.

  122. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear Anomander @ 9.07 am and Miriam English @ 9.15 am.

  123. Adrianne Haddow

    Great rebuttal, Anomander.
    Cheers.

  124. Backyard Bob

    The treatment of Louise Pratt and Lisa Singh by the Labor Party has been shameful.

    Speaking about shameful treatment by Labor, what about Chris Brown in Freemantle? I’ve never seen a bigger load of bollocks than that. It might be argued, perhaps, that politics ought be among the exceptions to the rules pertaining to spent conviction revelation, but it currently is not, therefore the Labor Party is breaking the law (or at least would have been in Qld).

    I mean, FFS. The whole point of the spent conviction idea is so people who made mistakes in their youth can still do stuff like get involved in politics – without fear of prejudice!

  125. The AIM Network

    The whole point of the spent conviction idea is so people who made mistakes in their youth can still do stuff like get involved in politics – without fear of prejudice!

    Precisely.

  126. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Spent Convictions should be overhauled. Time served should suffice. Police records too except for heinous crimes. Chris Brown highlights injustice that Labor must address.

  127. Keith

    Backyard Bob, you single out Louise Pratt and Lisa Singh, to be objective you would’ve added Colbeck who is placed 5th on the Liberal ticket in Tasmania. Factions operate in both parties.

  128. diannaart

    I have arrived here very late, but wish to give a big thank you to Athena,

    For
    publishing truth about Di Natale’s farm – just the one property, declared from the start of entering politics, not negatively geared, is a project for both himself and wife, only other property is family home – hardly making a motzah on a portfolio of properties like many other Labor & LNP politicians.

    Same for explanation of paying for nanny – not underpaid and definitely needed for busy family where both parents work.

    Richard Di Natale gave interview on these spurious accusations to Jon Faine on radio 774 earlier this week.

    If people want to fling dirt, a fact check is recommended.

    All of the above can be verified by any aspiring seeker of truth, through the usual means of fact checking on who owns what properties.

    Also, just think a little, Richard Di Natale is an intelligent man who is aware of the vicious nature of politics – if he had something to hide, I would expect him to do a better job.

    Just to remind a few regular Labor rusteds:

    I am voting Labor for the House of Representatives; Greens and Independents for Senate and placing LNP as last as is possible.

    As are many progressive supporters.

  129. nurses1968

    Di Natale was elected to the Australian Senate at the 2010 federal election and his term began on 1 July 2011.

    On 19 July 2011 Di Natale signed the Statement of Registerable Interests for senators.

    In this declaration to parliament he stated that he received income from “Twin Gums” – a small rural property, near Deans Marsh in Victoria .

    On 4 August 2014 he again declared income from “Twin Gums” farm.

    Senator Di Natale told The Sydney Morning Herald (in a video) in June 2015 that the property was purchased “about ten years ago”.

    On 20 May 2016 he was quoted in The Australian as saying that his wife Lucy Quarterman became a full owner of this farm in October 2012.

  130. diannaart

    nurses1968

    What you have stated concurs with my knowledge of the farm.

    Were you making a point or merely a comment?

  131. nurses1968

    Just what had been written, and I overlooked the link. I did think if putting the whole content on here would just draw the Greens apologists out
    I include the rest of the comment and link for your perusal

    Saturday, 21 May 2016
    The Greens stumble in Week 2 of the 2016 Australian federal election campaign
    posted by clarencegirl

    To be honest I find it hard to warm to the man, but I was still very surprised to find that Greens Senator for Victoria Richard Di Natale had not properly declared the property interests of both he and his wife……..

    A spokesman for Senator Di Natale’s told Fairfax: “the farm was listed as a business interest from the time Richard was elected” and that by declaring income from the farm, he had met the requirements for declaring property in the register of senators’ interests.

    This has been a significant misstep and is likely to affect The Greens party image with some voters.

    http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/2016/05/the-greens-stumble-in-week-2-of-2016.html

  132. Miriam English

    Smear. You should know by now not to believe the mainstream media, nurses1968.

  133. diannaart

    @nurses1968

    How is owning a small profitable farm wrong?

    Declaring income from said farm “a misstep”?

    Putting farm in wife’s name – most politicians do this from all sides of the spectrum? To a great deal more than a small farm.

    Maybe I am having a bad brain day, nurses1968, please help me and explain what error Di Natale has committed?

    As Miriam stated this is a pathetic attempt at ‘smear’.

  134. nurses1968

    Miriam English
    This is from a very reputable blogger, Clarencegirl who normally, if you bothered to visit her site would see is pro Green
    The link is there check it out
    The point being, check discrepancies in ownership/income/declarations

  135. diannaart

    Nurses1968

    “Clarencegirl” got her information from the SMH article.

    http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/2016/05/the-greens-stumble-in-week-2-of-2016.html

    Doesn’t prove any “misstep” – the SMH has been know to make mistakes…

    Besides, Clarencegirl posted from the Guardian

    A spokesman for Senator Di Natale’s told Fairfax: “the farm was listed as a business interest from the time Richard was elected” and that by declaring income from the farm, he had met the requirements for declaring property in the register of senators’ interests.

    OK, so she doesn’t “warm’ to the man – so what?

  136. Athena

    Pfft.. it’s a working farm so it was declared as a business. When has Di Natale ever tried to cover up for owning a farm? He hasn’t. It has been public knowledge for years. Move on. Nothing to see here.

  137. Miriam English

    nurses1968, Athena already posted a clarification of this, above at May 21, 2016 at 6:29 pm.

  138. Daniel

    It’s entirely in the LNP’s self interest to preference Greens above Labor so Labor has a lower chance of forming a majority government. If Labor doesn’t have a majority then Liberals can negotiate with Labor to get bills passed.

    That doesn’t imply anything about the Greens policies or imply any deals took place. A hung parliament with Greens in the balance of power will mean that the Greens will have much more ability to implement their policies, and they don’t owe either major party anything.

    Personally I would never vote for a party that deeply fears being held accountable from the left and pledges to be uncooperative and only listen to itself.

  139. Daniel

    The Greens are targeting the seats where they have the highest chance of winning. Most of them happen to be Labor held, some by progressives (Albanese, Plibersek), some by conservatives (Feeney, Danby), some by nobody (Fremantle). They are also targeting a Liberal held seat (Higgins). Senate races can come down to Greens vs right wingers; Greens have a decent chance of replacing ACT’s Zed Seselja (part of the Abbott/Bernardi faction), and it will likely come down to Greens vs Family First for the final senate seat in SA.

    It’s also worth pointing out that Labor are trying very hard to win the seat of Melbourne back from Bandt.

    The simple explanation for all of this? Liberal, Labor and Greens are all parties with their own interests, they all have a right to exist and they all have a legitimate motive to win as many seats as possible for their own parties.

  140. Eelboy

    The bigger issue is that Di Natale, whilst pretending to champion living wages & penalty rates (& trying his darndest to wedge Labor here), is quite prepared to pay his employees peanuts. No amount of spin can hide this simple fact.

  141. Athena

    Thank you for the voice of reason, Daniel.

  142. Jexpat

    David Spry:

    In scrunteering booths (and in one instance, two entire council wards), I’ve seen all sorts of strange preference flows. Often times, these can be attributed to local issues (destruction of rail service- literally tearing out the tracks in one community led to some strange bedfellows) or larger concerns (nationalist and/or bigotted party voters preferencing the Greens #2, which I surmise is based the Greens’ opposition to offshoring, sales of privitised public assets to foreign concerns, as well as foreign ownership of Australian properties and farmlands).

    I’ve also seen what appeared to me to be an ill advised backlash by Greens voters to a parachuted in candidate from Labor right- with the Liberals running a charismatic wet and well funded {corruptly funded, per ICAC} candidate. This candidate was elected, but subsequently had to resign, along with a Lord Mayor who’s now famous for {literally} handing out paper bags full of cash to cronies through the window of his Bently.

    So yes, it does happen. There’s also some evidence of what happens whth the Greens and Labor work together and preference rationally (the formerly safe National seat of Ballina fell to the Greens in the 2015 NSW election). Had they done so to a greater extent in Lismore, Labor or the Green would have taken that seat, too.

  143. diannaart

    What continues to amaze is the readiness for some to believe any amount of smear about the Greens, without any thought at all.

    Similar to the campaign against Julia Gillard – people wanted to believe the worst. You’d think people would’ve learned from those woeful days, but, apparently not.

  144. Jexpat

    Crovus Borueus wrote: “Voters do not have to play party games any more.”

    Having Glenn Druery out of this line of work is a welcome development, at least.

  145. nurses1968

    Eelboy
    I find $3.75 an hour disgusting, so it is no wonder the Greens failed to put a submission before the Fair Work Commission.

    Even the LNPs $4 traineeships seems generous compared to what Di Natale paid

  146. Athena

    nurses1968, i find your lack of critical thinking ability amusing. Au pair jobs commonly include accommodation and meals. Taking the entire package into account the encumbent was paid approx $18 per hour.

  147. nurses1968

    Athena.
    Apart from my nursing job I do 10 hours a week performing duties not unlike Richards “au pairs”
    My employer pays the casual rate of $28.90 p.h
    I assume someone on taxpayer funded $200,000 p.a income, plus similar in benefits, plus farm income would be in a position to pay fair and equitable wages.
    Surely Richard and the Greens advocate a fair go for workers?
    It does seem strange that those defending Di Natales slave rates were very vocal on the 711 pay scandal

  148. Athena

    Nurses1968, yours is a current casual rate with a 20% loading. Di Natale wasn’t paying a casual rate and it was a few years ago. Got any more apples and oranges you want to compare? He checked with an employment agency and paid the going rate at the time. If it meets minimum wage, that’s all that matters. There’s no obligation for any employer to pay more than that. I did see one commenter state that minimum wage for that job at the time was approx $16 per hour.

  149. diannaart

    @nurses1968, you get food & board with that $28.90?

    (Richard Di Natale) He also hit back at the au pair claims, stating that the total package of benefit to the employee was around $500 a week for 25 hours work, once room, board and other expenses were taken into account. The package, $20 per hour, is above the national minimum wage of $17.29 per hour.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/05/19/richard-di-natale-defends-paying-au-pair-150-a-week/

  150. Miriam English

    It’s not worth responding to nurses1968 any more than it is to respond to Neil of Sydney. She is determined to hate regardless of what the facts are. Nothing will dissuade her. People in the Greens could raise the dead, bring about a new age of knowledge, and eliminate global warming and she would still find something to hate about it.

    Best to ignore her. Let her nestle against the bosom of Malcolm Turnbull, who I’m sure derives much comfort from her attempts to sow discord.

  151. Jexpat

    diannaart:

    What I find impressive is that some Labor folks seem to think that attacking Di Natale somehow assauges their decision to drop penalty rates like a hot potato a mere three days after sending out this missive in a fundraising email:

    “”From cuts to hospitals and plans to privatise Medicare, cuts to schools and kids dental to $100,000 university degrees, the roll back of marine reserves and plans to scrap penalty rates Australians rely on, we all have plenty of reasons to fight for an end to the Abbott/ Turnbull era.”

    It seems to me better to make the affirmative case to supporters and potential supporters, i.e., that legislation on penalty rates could be overturned by a subsequent government. Ergo, its wiser and more strategic to go with the Fair Work Commission decision (even if the umpire have been stacked, etc) first. It might also be bait, in the event of an adverse decision, dramatically reigniting the work choices sort of theme.

    That may not be persuasive to everyone relying on penalty rates, but it would be a better look- and more effective than relying on an equivical beat up of someone whose party is unequivocal in their support for them.

  152. nurses1968

    diannaart.
    I get discounted rent, the employer is also my landlord, and fed when I’m there plus other employee benefits

    Miriam English
    I am a unionist and supporter of workers rights
    Sorry if that offends you

  153. diannaart

    Jexpat

    Attacks on Greens, cover for Labor doing far less for; environment, mining subsidies, CSIRO cuts, private school subsidies…. and so on….

  154. diannaart

    nurses1968 I get discounted rent, the employer is also my landlord, and fed when I’m there plus other employee benefits

    So? Di Natale covered all the rent and all the food and related expenses, what was your point again?

  155. Athena

    Notice that Nurses1968’s other benefits weren’t mentioned up front when she was trying to make a case for Di Natale paying below award rates. lmao.

  156. nurses1968

    I find even exploiters pay more than Richard
    The Influence of Market Forces
    The market place plays a large part in the question of how much an Au Pair may receive. Whilst there is a generally accepted rate under which Au Pair pay should not fall ($6), if there are less Au pairs applying for positions, than families looking, they will naturally be attracted to those able to offer slightly more money.
    http://www.aupairadvice.com.au/how-much-to-pay-your-au-pair.html

    Free room and board

    Throughout the entirety of their stay with you, the au pair is entitled to free room and board. Naturally, this also applies if your au pair falls ill or is on holiday. Furthermore, the au pair should be offered an individual room in your home.
    Pocket money

    Your au pair will receive pocket money from you, which should be paid on a weekly or monthly basis. As there is no official au pair programme in Australia, there is no regulation on the amount of pocket money which should be paid. However, from our experience, we can recommend an amount of:

    200-250 AUD for 30 hours/week.
    https://www.aupairworld.com/en/au_pair_program/australia/family/pocket_money

  157. Jennifer G

    The Labor Party (founded by the unions, remember) supports penalty rates, but wisely is waiting for the report.
    If the Greens are really such avid supporters of penalty rates, why did they not make a submission?

  158. Athena

    Seriously Nurses1968, your reading comprehension skills suck. Why are you quoting something that no employer is obliged to do? If Di Natale has broken the law, provide the evidence. Otherwise, stop the ridiculous harping. Gee if you’re any indication of the average intelligence of the ALP then we’re doomed.

  159. Jennifer G

    Yeah, go ahead.
    Vote Green, feel smug and superior.
    Then, if you succeed in getting us another LNP term, enjoy watching while we lose everything that is worthwhile.
    Just keep shouting, a handful of Greens in the lower house will solve everything.

  160. Athena

    Jennifer G, keep on voting for the same old shit and expect a different outcome.

  161. Trish Corry

    As always, absolutely BRILLIANT article Victoria. My sentiments exactly! You hit so many nails on the head, you may qualify for an honorary carpenter’s indenture papers. The only way to get rid of the Liberal trash that is ruining our country is to put Labor FIRST and LNP Last. There is nothing else. No other party can Govern, no other party has the experience to Govern and I cannot see why anyone in their right mind would risk one seat to any other party, in such disastrous times including the ‘so called leftist Greens.’ But, in the lower house, I may have no choice to keep putting them second, as here in Capricornia we have ALP, LNP, One Nation, Greens, Family First and usually a right wing supporting candidate. However, the Senate is a much bigger story now with OPV. I won’t start, cos I will be here all day.

    Ok…I may start just a little bit…The ‘mood’ amongst the active politically engaged on social media is becoming one of anger and frustration between Labor and Greens, due to the pretentiousness of the Greens and their die hard supporters. My oh my don’t the self-righteous nasty comments come out, too. Nothing like an indignant Green’s supporter trying to battle for Labor ground, bouncing off the coat tails of more than 100 years of hard fought Labor progressive policies. They are like that sneaky little office worker, who sucks up to the boss, takes credit for your work and expects and even demands a promotion!

    SM Political discussion is more about Labor vs Greens than anything else, which Is SO Wrong. The Greens and pushing the energy away from fighting the Liberals, by fighting against Labor. Adam Bandt’s page spends more time bagging Labor then he does raising any concerns about the Liberals who are destroying the country. I have told him so many, many times.

    Labor will win this election with zero help from the Greens and I am so glad that Shorten is not even responding to their rubbish. I predict the after party in my electorate will be huge, as we will knock off a LNP MP and have an educated, compassionate Labor MP in their place and Labor will win the election in a landslide and Bill Shorten will be the Prime Minister. I predict I will be extremely drunk by the end of the evening. However if Bandt loses his seat and Labor take Greens seats in the Senate, I will be even more drunker-er-er-er.

    Once again, well done. I always love you work. Keep it up!

  162. safronicus

    You state, “…while the likes of Deveny and thousands of other Greens supporters spend all their time and energy ranting and yelling about…”. Who are the ‘likes of Deveny’? How many thousands exactly and how did you arrive at that figure?

  163. Athena

    “Nothing like an indignant Green’s supporter trying to battle for Labor ground, bouncing off the coat tails of more than 100 years of hard fought Labor progressive policies. ”

    Bwahahaha! Need i remind you Trish that subsequent ALP governments have been undoing Gough Whitlam’s achievements. The ALP’s golden age is long gone and shows no signs of returning any time soon.

    The message I get from you and Victoria is that no progressive is allowed to be disappointed with the mighty ALP, no matter how much they drift to the right. Heaven forbid that any progressives start another party with policies that reflects what the voters want, and gosh.. how dare they vote for them. Get over yourself.

  164. nurses1968

    Athena
    Ever heard of moral obligation?
    “No employer is obliged to do” pay wages you mean? ”
    Great idea. lets have Nursing homes, Child care facilities, Motels all jump on the pay them what you think they are wort bandwagon”
    You would have to support that wouldn’t you?

    Seems to have escaped Dicky an you too it seems .
    Why pay anything, just throw them a bone at the end of the day

  165. didisaythataloud

    Bravo, Victoria, and I’ve been saying this for months. I’ll go further: Greens are not only fulfilling the main item on their agenda – expansion of The Greens – by whispering with the LNP behind the scenes, but they also push a campaign of deliberate misinformation about Labor and its actions/statements. I’ve had this argument with many Greens supporters; I give them examples, which they counter with wide-eyed pleas to join with them and stop all this nonsense. I finish by pointing out – to the Greens supporters and ALP members who are all-too-ready to swallow everything they are told – that everything they believe and quote about Labor comes from… The Greens. But Greens have managed for decades to give the impression that they are not really a political party, and this means they are NOT held to standards and their often gobsmackingly-mendacious claims about Labor are swallowed hook-line-and-sinker. I’ve see Larissa lie on Q&A. I’ve read Whish-Wilson’s breathtaking spin on Labor and legislation in parliament. I’ve seen the virtual grave-robbing Greens indulged in after Gough’s death. It has served to remind me just how self-referential and appallingly insensitive the privileged middle-class can be.

    All well and good. But we should remember that The Greens have made a choice: two or three extra seats for Greens are, apparently, worth the demolition of education, health, human rights and the environment.

    – Judy Crozier

  166. Kaye Lee

    Trish,

    “‘mood’ amongst the active politically engaged on social media is becoming one of anger and frustration between Labor and Greens, due to the pretentiousness of the Greens and their die hard supporters. My oh my don’t the self-righteous nasty comments come out, too”

    The MOOD is indeed anger and frustration with divisive insider bs like this article and your comment. Have you even read what Labor people say about the Greens? How can you call Greens supporters “nasty” when saying this article was “brilliant”?

    You don’t seem to understand that you are LOSING support with these attacks!

    Like a bunch of squabbling children. You are being so easily manipulated into this. Those of us who are not as emotionally invested in a party can see it. You should be smart enough to as well. What a gift you are giving the Libs. Ask yourself, why would Michael Kroger announce doing deals with the Greens? It is certainly not going to impress his constituency but you lot fell for it hook line and sinker and seem determined to blow ANOTHER election with your childish fights!

  167. Trish Corry

    didisaythataloud
    “All well and good. But we should remember that The Greens have made a choice: two or three extra seats for Greens are, apparently, worth the demolition of education, health, human rights and the environment.”

    Hear Hear!

  168. PK1765

    Aaah Trish Corry another ALP stooge… Lets NOT forget the ALP preferenced Family First & Bob Day who has voted with the LNP 90% of the time and Nick Xenophon who has voted with the LNP 35% of the time before the Greens in 2013, the Greens owe the ALP no loyalty, and neither does anyone on social security as they have F*cked us over big time!!

    The ALP also helped to pass the Cashless Welfare Card and the work for the dole, as well as a review of DSP recipients under 35… and no one should forget the ALP changed the DSP criteria under Gillard that now sees terminal cancer patients on Newstart.

    Then there is sole parents yes, the Howard Government introduced moving sole parents to Newstart when there youngest turned 8, but the ALP had reports from the own commissioned review that showed that children living in poverty of sole parents had increased and that homelessness of sole parent families had increased, but instead of addressing the problem they decided to move another 100,000 sole parents to Newstart effective 1st January 2013. The only ones who have fought against these changes have been the Greens… and Ricky Muir of late.

    AND yes the LNP are talking about preference the Greens, which is purely a strategic move of the part of the LNP to take votes from the ALP, as they have done previously… BUT the Greens are MOST definitely NOT preferencing the LNP… And Adam Brandt of the Greens was quite clear on Q&A where he said and I quote ” I think Liberal policies are reprehensible.”

    ADAM BANDT: I would like to see Greens working with Labor. I think the big question will be whether Labor wants to do it. We’re up for it, and I think you’d want an agreement that delivers a stable and effective and progressive parliament, and everyone would have to give a bit, because it would have to be reasonable, it means no-one’s won by definition, but it certainly, I think, would help us kick-start, for example, clean energy and close the gap between the rich and the rest in this country.

    In the 2013 election 83.3% of the Green voters preferenced the ALP, the Green Ballot has always allowed the voter to choose there own preferences, the Greens, nor the ALP or LNP have had no say on who the voters preference… AND now with the new voting reform with the white ballot the preferences are ALSO up to the voter… AND with this continued beat up and ALP position I can tell you that the Greens voters are getting very angry the ALP are shooting themselves in the foot with this continued smear campaign.

    And you will NOT see the demolition of education, health, human rights and the environment, as they are bigger supporters of these.

    AND Kay Lee is correct YOU are losing potential supporters…

  169. Kaye Lee

    Could you please explain how you can reach that conclusion? The only way that can happen is if the Coalition win 76 seats, or can get close enough to convince a few crossbenchers to support them. The Greens will never vote to demolish those things, nor will Labor. And that is the point. Stop fighting each other and be happy for the success of either because you can, together, defeat this lot. If, however, you choose to use your time and resources ripping each other apart you will destroy any chance we have, just as you did fighting over Rudd and Gillard. Focus on the goal.

    And PK1765,

    I find Green attacks on Labor just as counterproductive. As I always said to my kids, I don’t care who did or said what. Let’s pull together to give us a chance of ridding ourselves of the common enemy. Devote your thinking to that with positive policies that convince the voters. Negotiate later to improve things.

  170. diannaart

    The Abbottoir celebrating division between Greens and Labor:

  171. cornlegend

    Geez, what have I missed 😀

    Kaye Lee

    “The only way that can happen is if the Coalition win 76 seats,”
    That is the likely scenarion, minimum.
    Much as I hate it and get driven to distraction by Labors incessant focus groups and internal polling, the latest lot {pre AFP kerfuffle, which coincidentally doesn’t seem to be concerning ordinary voters} is ALP falling 7 seats short.
    Anything can happen in 6 weeks but I will stick with the bet I put on an LNP victory.
    In reality, if Labor can haul back 14-16 seats it will be a pretty fair old effort.
    If they can get the 21 necessary it will be a monumental result

    Good article Victoria, even though you branded me a deadbeat landlord in one of your previous articles 😀

  172. Kaye Lee

    Polls and focus groups have a HUGE margin of error. Firstly, the sample group is so small that the level of confidence in extrapolation would be very little. Secondly, it is a seat by seat contest. Remember the analysis that showed 30,000 in the right places would have seen a different result last time? Remember how many young people didn’t enrol?

    Polls be buggered. We CAN kick this mob out .

  173. Jennifer G

    You are right.
    If Libs get 75 or 76 seats, they can rely on Katter and any NXT MHRs to support them.
    They will not need the Greens.
    This is the most likely outcome as Labor is really pushing whatsit uphill, having the LNP, the Greens and the msm against them.
    As to “Could you please explain how you can reach that conclusion? The only way that can happen is if the Coalition win 76 seats, or can get close enough to convince a few crossbenchers to support them. The Greens will never vote to demolish those things”
    No-one in the LNP will care how the 1-3 Greens vote.
    Arithmetic, people!

  174. cornlegend

    “Remember the analysis that showed 30,000 in the right places would have seen a different result last time?”
    that was basically a mathematical equation, the reality was almost impossible.
    Did you ever read how they came to that conclusion?
    As for polling, the internal polling on individual seat that are critical has over the years been pretty damned close .{and as for the focus groups, don’t get me started}
    I’ll go along with your sentiment
    “Polls be buggered. We CAN kick this mob out .”
    Just cross fingers, toes, eyes, buy a voodoo doll etc etc

  175. diannaart

    Cornie

    What plans are proposed for AFTER the election? Attempts to control damage over funding cuts? Blocking supply with the Greens, perhaps?

    😛

  176. cornlegend

    diannaart
    They are still planning FOR it , as you know, a day is a long time in politics, 6 weeks is a bloody eternity
    The ALP will have a strategy if they fall short, as I’m sure the Greens will.
    Whether they are on the same page is another thing for another time, another place

    I have to say though, having been out and about a few electorates, even though Shorten has been going gangbusters, there is a whole lot of disinterest out there.
    I will hit the trail again tomorrow and charm a few more onside 😀

  177. cornlegend

    Jennifer G
    If the LNP get 76 they are home, then with Katter, Mcgowan and a NXT they can pick a Speaker, and off they go

  178. Jaquix

    I look to the last Queensland State election – where the Labor Party only had 9 seats, all the polls were saying LNP win (theme: we have a plan, plan, plan) and what happened? Labor won by 1 or 2 seats. About 30 seats from memory. With an untried leader, a woman named Annastacia Palaszczuk. Amazing feat, despite 100% Murdoch propaganda campaign. The swings were huge in some places eg 20% . None predicted. So it can be done.

  179. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear Kaye Lee,

    “Polls be buggered. We CAN kick this mob out ”

    Defeatist talk at the end of Week 2 will just grow the LNP Degenerates’ misplaced confidence and any undecided voters may be influenced by thinking if we don’t think we can beat them, then why bother vote either Greens or Labor or anybody who will deny the LNP a vote.

    Like the more intelligent people on this site are saying, stop the bitching and work together to eliminate the LNP from government.

    If you want a bitch, hit Michael Kroger with your outrage. He could do with a good whack.

  180. Athena

    Goodness knows how many of those polls are just more of Murdoch’s propaganda.

  181. cornlegend

    Which polls can be trusted? How often are are they wrong?

    Rarely. Professor of political science at the Australian National University Ian McAllister says that for the most part, pollsters can be relied upon. From time to time, there are rogue polls and outliers when the sample hasn’t been correctly selected. However, a look at poll records prove reliability. O’Shannessy said: “Newspoll has done 52 polls handled immediately before a state or federal election and we got it right every time. In fact we even often detect late swings at the last moment. For example, in 2010, everyone was calling it a Labour parliament, but we actually called it a hung parliament based on our poll.”
    Richardson says Roy Morgan, Nielsen and Newspoll have a long history and generally been accurate: “Newspoll generally puts its neck on the line a bit more because it comes out more frequently, and so you get slightly more variations. Nielsen is probably better at giving you a longer-term trend, but because it has those long intervals, you might miss out on some of the movement in between. Galaxy has a less-established record but in the time it’s been operating, it has been very accurate.”

    Crikey Clarifier: how are polls conducted?

  182. cornlegend

    Jennifer
    “Defeatist talk at the end of Week 2 ”
    How about, “accepting reality ”
    As I pointed out, the polls are predicting that at this stage .
    If you read my comment I did indicate 6 weeks is a long time and anything could happen
    Geez, we might even have Abbott challenge Turnbull in the next week or two.
    “A day is a long time in politics”

  183. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Polls or no polls cornlegend,

    defeatist talk plus bitching between Labor and the Greens gives us lesser chance of defeating the Degenerates.

  184. diannaart

    BB has the right of it…. open tickets

    …all the best, you old schmoozer…

  185. Matters Not

    Kaye Lee @ at 5:25 pm said:

    You don’t seem to understand that you are LOSING support with these attacks!

    Yep! And at so many levels.

    Or perhaps it’s (seen as) a clever strategy to entice disillusioned, thinking Labor supporters back to the Party? You know, those revulsed by the third rate arguments advanced by some of the current ‘spear carriers’.

    Just dumb!

  186. cornlegend

    Matters Not
    I think it just worries those with a foot in both camps
    What do you think about Bob Brown calls on Greens to ditch preference deals run open tickets?
    A possible Labor direction also?

  187. Matters Not

    cornlegend, preference deals have absolutely no personal impact. Only relevant for the mentally challenged.

    Labor should provide ‘leadership’ and stress that ‘preferences’ aren’t a plaything of the party, but the right of each and every voter. And need to be exercised.

    You know, dispel ignorance. Promote ‘education’ at all levels. Walk the talk.

  188. hforward22

    I’m pretty sure both Greens and Labor voters want the same thing. To thrash the LNP. But I’m not too sure about DiNatale. The Meg Lees comparison is pretty spot on, IMO. And I’m sad about the rumoured agreement between Greens and Liberals.

  189. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Every Green leader I’ve spoken to has assured me there is NO agreement with the Liberal fatcats.

  190. cornlegend

    Matters Not,
    I am on a 5 week road trip encouraging below the line voters and campaigning for Labor
    We pick up 20,000 Senate how to votes to distribute {not ALP approved} to vote 12 below the line
    Sam Dastyari ALP
    Jenny McAllister
    Deborah O’Neill
    Doug Cameron
    Tara Moriarty
    Vivien Thomson

    Ross Fitzgerald Sex Party

    Sam Kearns Pirate party
    Darren McIntosh Socialist Alliance
    Ken Canning
    Susan Price
    Leroy-Dyer

    The preference deals don’t have an impact on me either, but as you know they are aimed at the masses .

  191. Eelboy

    @Athena “If it meets the minimum wage, that’s all that matters”. You give yourself away. Also you’re pretty naive if you accept Di Natale’s claim that an au pair looking after two infants while both parents were at work only puts in 25 hours a week.

  192. Jexpat

    In all of Cornlegend’s posts on this thread, has anyone seen the slightest glimpse of anything useful for all of us here in 2016 -or going into the 3rd decade of the 21st Century?

    Or for that matter,in ForHoward’s -LOL- corporate media style rumor and gossip mongering above?

  193. Matters Not

    as you know they are aimed at the masses .

    I ‘know’ that but I lament exactly that. Where is the ‘leadership’? The ‘education’? The ‘vision’?

    As for Ross Fitzgerald, and ‘sex’, he’s well qualified as many a student will attest. And he’s known to bridge the gender divide. I am confident he will support ‘marriage equality’.

  194. Athena

    “@Athena “If it meets the minimum wage, that’s all that matters”. You give yourself away. Also you’re pretty naive if you accept Di Natale’s claim that an au pair looking after two infants while both parents were at work only puts in 25 hours a week.”

    @Eelboy

    1. I meant to say if it meets the award wage. An employer is not required to pay more than the award wage. If you disagree with that, please quote the appropriate legislation as evidence.

    2. Provide the evidence that Di Natale’s au pair was required to work more than 25 hours per week.

  195. trishcorry

    Corny if your five week road trip includes Capricornia in QLD, make sure you let me know ^^ Great work. I’ve been very upset as I have not been well for a number of weeks now and I can’t really offer physical assistance to our candidate at this time with many activities and it is truly the most exciting time to over throw the LNP!

    Keep up the great work! We can do this!

  196. Athena

    “In all of Cornlegend’s posts on this thread, has anyone seen the slightest glimpse of anything useful for all of us here in 2016 -or going into the 3rd decade of the 21st Century?”

    I’ve only just stopped laughing at the comment re: open ticket being a good idea then admitting he’s circulating his own list of preferences to voters.

  197. Jexpat

    “trishcorry” wrote: “We can do this!

    What would that be?

    Overthrow the LNP tribe all by yourselves? Without any help from anyone- or worse, by alienating folks?

    That’s surely a positive thing for all to rally around.

    /s

    About as positive as getting into government and backstabbing people who supported you, based on your promises to protect the barrier reef.

  198. cornlegend

    Athena
    You really don’t have a clue do you ?
    “3rd decade of the 21st Century?”
    bit ahead of yourself. or space cadet?

  199. Matters Not

    This thread’s been a disaster for the ‘left’ side of politics.

    Shakes head.

    But I am confident (and very sad) the ‘disaster’ will continue.

  200. Matters Not

    How can the ‘left’ stop this ‘road trip’? And contribute to the defeat of the LNP in the short, medium and longer terms?

  201. Miriam English

    It just goes on and on.

    I’m sure the LNP will be laughing it up, realising how fruitful a sprinkling of lies can be in turning progressives into a rabid mob slitting each others’ throats.

    This is insane.

    I’m starting to wonder if we have any hope at all of knocking the LNP out of power.

    We’d better hope the rest of Australia’s progressives are smart enough not to put on the kind of shameful performance we’ve seen here or we’re all screwed and can expect Turnbull & Co. to be elected.

  202. Jexpat

    Matters Not:

    Better to vent early, rather than later, I guess.

    Cornlegend: I’ve known people who beat down on others (or do worse) when they’e too young to hit back effectively. That changes sometimes, as we all get older.

    You got a whack back once as I recall, thereafter whining to whoever it was on another site. What was it that you got called (in the context of deconstructing some foolish bullying post of yours?) A corrnpone I think it was.

    Well, here we go again.

  203. cornlegend

    Matters Not
    How can the ‘left’ stop this ‘road trip’?
    The ‘Left” as in the micros and parties on the H.T.V will be assisting

    Jexpat
    What are you waffling about?
    Last I heard from you, you were demanding Michael Taylor produce documentary evidence as to my isp or somethimg.
    I will re find your request

  204. Jexpat

    Yep, I surely did make an allegation/inquiry in regard to cadre of bullies who (like mean girls or cowardly “men”) had a pattern of turning up “in company” in various places at the same time and ganging up.

    I suspected that it was the same person behind the screen names (as it was difficult to imagine that many self-defeating sorts of individuals in the same places at the same times).

    Micheal Taylor responded that this wasn’t the case, and he being a trustworthy source, I accepted his assurances.

    This is all on record. Knock yourself out and repost whatever you find, if it suits you.

  205. Garth

    Miriam
    My thoughts exactly. I don’t pretend to be any sort of authority on anything but reading through this extensive list of comments my thoughts were :-
    1) unedifying
    2) self defeating
    If that sounds pretentious, so be it. The progressive parties need to unite, not tear each other a new one.

  206. Trish Corry

    There is a word for the Greens supporters on this site, who continuously have a go at Authors or commentators who support Labor but don’t like it when the Greens are criticised. It is called HYPOCRISY.

    Cornlegend is NOT a bully. He is exactly the opposite. There are certainly bullies on this site and he is certainly not one of them.

    Victoria is 100% correct in everything she says in her article. She is an excellent author and frankly, the disrespect towards her in this thread is mindblowing. This is a person young enough and intelligent enough to make a real change in terms of left commentary in the media. I certainly would prefer to see Victoria on Insiders than Gerard Henderson any day. She has my full support and best wishes for everything she chooses to do. Some people really need to pull their heads in.

    The Greens and their supporters would rather three more years of Turnbull, if it meant just one more seat for the Greens. To the Greens and their Supporters this is “The real left making progress and holding LABOR to account” Not the LNP – Labor. See where the problem is here? Go have a read of Adam Bandt’s page and ask him straight up, why he prefers to attack Labor over the Liberals.

    It is people like Corny who get out there and actually engage with real life people to win votes for a great party, who can actually Govern in their own right. The only party who can rid Australia of the nasty destructive regressive Liberals and that is THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY. It is so easy to sit behind a keyboard and criticise the people who actually do put in the hard yards though, isn’t it?

    Also NO, Labor isn’t losing votes to the Greens. I don’t know in who’s lunch box that is, but Labor is forging ahead day after day. Not everyone lives in Melbourne. In Queensland, no one gives a stuff about the Greens. The battle is between the real enemy – the LNP and Labor, the fascist right is more of a threat than the Greens. I have seen so many comments on social media of people turning away from the Greens for two reasons. 1. DiNatale’s obvious grab of power is creating trust issues and 2. People are saying that they want LNP out, so they are changing their Green vote to second and Labor 1st. Medicare is the biggest issue they are worried about.

    I have always put the Greens second on my ballot. Under DiNatale and his personal little battle with power and the constant attacks by Greens members on Labor day after day, they can go and shove it. I will be working hard to research my senate ticket and they will not be getting one vote from me and neither will the LNP.

    And If I am a mindless ALP Stooge or whatever other insulting crap you want to fling at me – so be it. I’m Labor and bloody proud of it. It is the party who has made Australia what we are today. No other party has put forth and legislated progressive reform – except Labor. The Greens have never even had an ORIGINAL progressive idea in 22 years. They just jump on Labor’s coat tails and scream ‘We can do it better” That is NOT the party who is ready to lead this country.

    I fought alongside so many good people fighting so hard, day in day out to rid QLD of Newman.. If the Greens would have acted in QLD like they are now, WE WOULD STILL HAVE NEWMAN. This election is not a joke. If they are so bloody good, they should be attacking conservative seats, not Labor ones, like Albo and Plibersek’s. If Labor has to fight Lies from the Greens and Lies from LNP and Lies from Murdoch and Lies from the IPA – the Greens are doing nothing but helping the LNP. If they can’t win anything on their own merits, just slander and lies about Labor, then what is the point of them?

    I want Bill Shorten as Prime Minister, because he will be a great Prime Minister and he will be a long serving progressive Prime Minister. I want to see our MP Labor in my electorate. I want to see the LNP obliterated. That means fighting the LNP full on. The constant nitpicking by the Greens, does nothing but takes energy out of that fight. It is a constant fight with the LNP and the Greens are nothing but a beast of burden.

    If the Greens weren’t the ones trying to stuff up getting rid of the LNP, this article would not have even have been necessary, but it bloody well is and that is nothing but a shame.

  207. Jexpat

    Trish: did I read this bit of your post correctly: “the fascist right is more of a threat than the Greens?”

    If you really believe that, then wouldn’t it be a better idea for us to join together against that common threat, rather than devolving into the sort of petty tribalism that divides us all and in turn -allows “the fascist right” to prevail?

  208. Miriam English

    Trish, normally I have respect for Victoria, but this piece was so full of errors and over-the-top hate that it is beneath her.

    By carrying on with the bile you are alienating the supporters Labor will need. All the progressive parties need to work together to get rid of the LNP, not indulge in this suicidal cat-fight.

    If we keep this up you know exactly what the LNP/Murdoch bunch will do. They’ll put out more lies again to set the fireworks off among the Progressives again because it works so incredibly well.

  209. corvus boreus

    I used to vote 1 Labor in both the lower house and senate.
    Since the current Labor senators have, by voting record, proven themselves to be at complete dissonance with many of my own core views (them being both pro-CSG and anti-ICAC), I will no longer cast any vote for them.
    This will change if/when Labor stop supporting utterly unsupportable and corrupt practices.

    Ps, if I wanted to read clichéd drivel about ‘latte-sipping’ strawfolk, I would buy Rupert’s slime rags.

  210. Athena

    Nick Xenophon’s team is generating a lot of interest in SA. Several progressives I know who are done with Labor are saying they will vote NXT. I won’t be surprised when, come election day, Labor gets a very big kick in its backside.

  211. Athena

    @Trish

    The Greens are not to blame for the ALP losing the last election, nor will they be to blame if the ALP loses the next one. That responsibility lies with the ALP. If people don’t wish to vote for the ALP, that is the ALP’s fault. It’s time for you and Victoria to put your big girl panties on, start adulting and accept that Labor has to take responsibility for their own actions. Write your entire post in upper case if you wish. Your histrionics won’t make me vote ALP.

  212. Kaye Lee

    “With six weeks to go until polling day, the Newspoll represents a two-party swing against the government of 4.5 per cent. If repeated on election day with a uniform swing, it would suggest about 23 Coalition seats would be lost and Mr Shorten would lead a Labor government with a narrow majority.”

    Do you think you could, for the sake of your country, stop the bitching and work together towards an achievable goal. I had every intention of voting Labor but you people are seriously pissing me off.

    In pretty much every job I have ever had, I have had to work with people with whom I disagree. It can be done if you approach people with respect, listen to their concerns, and work together to negotiate acceptable outcomes which may not completely satisfy you but at least improve a bad situation. Is it too much to ask that the people we elect display similar people management skills?

  213. Miriam English

    Oh, corvus and Athena, not helping.

    Highest priority is getting rid of LNP. It is difficult to imagine the amount of destruction Australia will suffer at the hands of another term under the LNP… and how many years it will take to recover.

    There are many things about Labor that years ago stopped me, a long-time Labor voter, from voting for them, but I always give my first preference to them after my primary vote to Greens because practically, there is little chance of any other group having the chance of opposing Rupert Murdoch when he backs the current vicious, inept, racist, LNP idiots.

    Labor has done some stinky things, it is true, but Labor has at least a chance of changing for the better. We must get rid of the LNP before that can happen, though. I know voting for someone because they are less evil is not much of a selling point, but it is nevertheless a fact. Their policies will do far less damage to Australia and will repair much of the damage done by the LNP clowns.

    Don’t give in to tit-for-tat exchanges with the tragic haters of anything not of their beloved party. I don’t think they truly represent Labor. Every time they start spewing vitriol and I catch myself thinking, “Right. Screw this. Labor just lost me entirely.” I remind myself that they don’t ultimately speak for Australia. They are merely about petty tribalism. The Labor Party is still our only way to oust the LNP, like or hate it.

    Sure, vote Greens, Xenophon, Sex Party, Online Direct Democracy, or any of the independents that you like, but I think it’s important to give your next preference to Labor. If they are elected on preferences instead of primary vote then Labor (unlike Abbott, who I believe rode to power almost entirely on preferences) are likely to be a more conciliatory and positive power for change.

    We must get rid of the dangerous LNP clowns first and foremost.

  214. diannaart

    Trish Corry May 23, 2016 at 12:55 am

    I stopped reading after:

    Victoria is 100% correct in everything she says in her article.

    There is nothing I can say, Trish, except to wish you well, I hold no animosity to you or Victoria. However, I will continue to challenge anyone who engages in smear campaigns, such as the one against Richard Di Natale. There are far worse politicians endemic to the LNP, yet you and Victoria join with the MSM in denigrating Di Natale.

    🙁

  215. corvus boreus

    Miriam English,
    I meant all I said.
    Labor’s online ‘barrackers’ have not greatly influenced my voting intention, but Labor’s voting record on important matters certainly has. Whilst they support shit like fracking and brown-bagging, I will not give them a shred.

  216. Athena

    Miriam, I’m in Christopher Pyne’s electorate. I’ll be putting him last on my ballot paper. I doubt the order of those before him makes any difference. because he’s going to get the preferences anyway. As for the ALP candidate, he hasn’t answered the questions I put to him about 2 weeks ago. He dodged important questions during a recent radio interview. His candidacy was only announced on April 19th, long after the after candidates were named. He is not as high profile as any of his opponents. His website tells us almost nothing about him. He isn’t making much use of his Facebook page, except to tell us about past events. The NXT candidate uses his to tell people where he will be in the future so that they can meet him and talk to him. Of course, I could contact the ALP and find out where their guy is going to be, but I’m not inclined to do their job for them. If he isn’t motivated enough to be noticeable during the campaign, he’s going to be a non-event in parliament, I am not getting the impression that the ALP cares anything for the people in my electorate and wants to give us an alternative to the Liberal Party.

  217. Kaye Lee

    Party allegiance screws people up in my opinion. If I went into a job interview and spent the entire time sledging the other applicants do you think I would deserve to get the job? If I can’t win the position on my merits, I am hardly likely to be given it because I am good at denigrating other people. When I am employing people, I want to know that they can work successfully with others. Party politics is making that impossible. This tribal allegiance which brooks no criticism, no scrutiny, no negotiation, has led us to the sorry state we are in now.

  218. Athena

    “Party allegiance screws people up in my opinion. If I went into a job interview and spent the entire time sledging the other applicants do you think I would deserve to get the job?”

    Exactly. If the campaign exists of “You have to vote for x because it’s the only way to keep y out” then they’ve got nothing. I want to use my vote for someone who represents what is important to me, not for someone who spends their time blaming everyone else for their own misfortunes. There’s no honesty and transparency there.

    We’ve had weeks of “discussion” on this site, with progressives supporting centrist and left leaning parties working together, only to be howled down by ALP supporters bleating “No deals!”. For Victoria to then come on here and blame the Greens for not wanting to deal is nothing short of moronic.

  219. Kaye Lee

    Victoria is far from moronic but her confrontational style almost invariably leads to this sort of a shit fight, fuelled by both Labor and Greens supporters, which I find enormously destructive for the progressive cause.

  220. helvityni

    Kaye Lee, amen to your post, a shit fight indeed…not very uplifting reading on a grey Monday morning…

  221. Anomander

    As a lifetime Labor voter, I can honestly say that Labor have left me, not the other way around.

    In their pursuit of the swinging voter, the ALP are the ones who have abandoned their heartland.

    For me, the Greens now fill that void. They are the ones who have the long-term vision of Whitlam.

    They are, and have been, the only ones standing up for everyday working people; opposing attacks on services and jobs.
    The only ones prepared to stand against the corrupting influence of money from big business, miners and developers.
    The only ones desperately fighting to protect our air, water and environment.
    The only ones standing against these destructive trade agreements.
    The only ones prepared to stand for humanitarian processes.

    I live in Bennelong and I hate the Libs with a passion. I know full well there is no way my local Greens candidate will be elected against the Memeber for Tennis, so Labor will get my second preference. But it is vital that I send the message to the ALP that they won’t get my first preference while they continue to pander to the right-wing side of politics.

  222. Keith

    There is one thing that the Greens and Labor have in common and that is that the LNP is believed to be poison.

    In relation to climate change all parties attempt to say the right thing; in relation to the LNP they spout words, not policy; Labor has a better policy. The Greens will not form government; their policy on climate change is the strongest, though probably still not strong enough.

    The area of Australia is 7.692 trillion square meters multiply that by the forcing created by greenhouse gases and a stupendously amount of energy is derived ( 7.692 trillion square meters X 2.974 Watts). A forcing of 2.974 Watts is created for every square meter using 2015 forcing, those forcings have been increasing over 1% per year ( view chart at end of reference).

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/aggi.html

    Jason Box, a thoughtful Glaciologist on hearing about the pingoe explosions in Siberia in 2014 said WTF in an unguarded moment. He went on to say we are stuffed.
    Much effort over the last few years has been devoted to studying permafrost areas, the results are not encouraging.

    What needs to be done is equivalent to trying to sell ice to Inuit in mid winter; rather than build new airfields, airlines need to be phased out; coal mining must cease, trading with China drastically be reduced until the Chinese phase their use of coal, where possible people grow their own vegetables, meat be phased out of people’s diets, a huge increase in public transport, push renewable energy extremely hard.
    From a climate point of view those examples and others give us a chance; from an economic point of view it will blow up economies.
    We will continue as we are as the pragmatics of real action pose huge problems; not just political.

    Currently there are millions of people in South East Asia in dire circumstances in relation to water resources and crop failure.

    A few points in relation to climate:

    The AMOC, commonly termed the Gulf Stream has been slowing down according to a number of scientists.
    Rain bombs being experienced throughout the planet.
    Cyclone Haiyan has been the strongest storm ever to be experienced.
    Drought in Southern California is highly likely to continue despite the El Nino.

    One sobering matter is that in reducing emissions, particulates in the atmosphere will decrease, and some are arguing there will be increased damage by greenhouse gases. A further reason for post haste action.

  223. Adrianne Haddow

    Anomander, your post mirrors my political journey.

    The difference is that I live in a “safe” Labor seat. Although our local member is a tireless worker for the local community, Labor has been unable to make a great deal of difference to the dirty LNP deals and decisions made by the Liberal/Nats and their lobbyists in our area.

    Air quality is worsening, water is going the same way. Half of our water reserves have been poisoned by the Dept of Defence fire drills.
    People have lost businesses and have had their home and land values degraded due to this, and this poisoning occurred not just during the Libs government. It’s been an ongoing polluting process for many years.

    The Green’s biggest crime in this thread appears to be that they are emerging from the indulgent “loony lefties” characterisation, to a party whose support is growing, particularly among young voters, who recognise that the established political parties don’t offer them or the planet much in the way of a future.

  224. Athena

    @ Keith

    Climate change is our most pressing problem at the moment and neither of the major parties seems to be taking it seriously. In publications I’m seeing from Europe, Joseph Stiglitz is urging for drastic action on climate change because it increases inequality between rich and poor and will have a huge impact on our economy. The poor will be hardest hit by climate change.

    It’s embarrassing that European nations that spend their winters under snow are way ahead of Australia when it comes to harnessing renewable energy. We’ve got so much land that is useless for farming and no major political party that wants to use some of it for supplying clean energy. My partner quoted someone at the weekend lamenting that the bottom has fallen out of electricity. I thought he was reading from Saturday’s Advertiser but I cannot find the article with a quick search now. Thank our stupid leaders, who were so hasty to kiss the butts of coal miners and sell off the profitable portion of electricity supply. We now find ourselves between a rock and a hard place because governments won’t invest significantly in solar energy and therefore private companies are unwilling to do so either. Their attitude becomes even more clear when they allow farmland to be ruined by mining.

    Our major parties are a major disgrace. I want to know who got what kick backs for signing the TPP. I’m yet to read of any benefits for Australia. We’re being sold off to the Chinese by the people we elected to represent us. I’ll be damned if I’m voting for more of the same.

  225. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    We will win this election.
    We will win this election.
    We will win this election.

    I take heart from Kaye Lee’s 7.19 am post which quotes:
    “With six weeks to go until polling day, the Newspoll represents a two-party swing against the government of 4.5 per cent. If repeated on election day with a uniform swing, it would suggest about 23 Coalition seats would be lost and Mr Shorten would lead a Labor government with a narrow majority.”

    STOP the bitching. Promote ALL Progressive forces against the LNP in every seat. I empathise with Corvus that the policies and principles matter, but I’m pragmatic enough to agree with Miriam @ 7.32 am.

    We MUST vote the LNP OUT before they destroy Australia and our quality of life full stop.

    Treat it as a 2 stage process:

    1) Vote either Greens or Labor #1 and Labor or Greens #2 for the House of Reps and 12 below-the-line Senators for your state.

    For me in Victoria, I will vote Greens #! and Laborr 32.

    I will be definitely putting the Greens Senators, Russell Hayward from Australian Progressives, Mark Dickenson an Independent, Ricky Muir an Independent, and a mixture of Labor, Pirate Party and other Progressives.

    This means I am ensuring that my vote is going towards a change of government immediately because those votes are non-LNP affiliated.

    2) Once the New Government is in power, it must act responsibly as the Gillard Government had to with Oakeshott and Windsor.

    This time the Shorten Admin will need to demonstrate its leader’s refined skills honed in Union and Big Biz mutual agreements, where positive negotiations work to address the policy objectives of all Alliance partners.

    This is the part where we will effectively pull Labor left/centre and we can address Corvus’ and all our principles of a better future based on clean energy and NOT CSG fracking or Adani coal mining ports perilously near the Great Barrier Reef.

    It is also where we will address the screaming need for humanitarian treatment of legitimate asylum seekers and humanitarian treatment of people on welfare.

    I don’t listen to naysayers. This is politically incorrect but as a fat person, I give myself permission to say this: ‘It ain’t over til the fat lady sings’.

    Don’t bitch and don’t give up!

  226. diannaart

    Thanks, Jennifer

    Good advice, especially for listing those who have no affiliation with LNP.

    🙂

  227. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    “For me in Victoria, I will vote Greens #! and Laborr 32.” Oops!

    This should read:

    For me in Victoria, I will vote Greens #1 and Labor #2 in the House of Representatives.

  228. Backyard Bob

    I would like to pause and thank Victoria, and more especially, Trish, for reaffirming my reasons for never having joined a political party. Look at what it does to people.

    MAYBE I SHOULD SAY THAT IN CAPS FOR THE SAKE OF EMPHASIS.

    What an intriguing dynamic.

  229. Trish Corry

    Why I like this article so much and why I agree with it 100%, is that it brings to the front something that absolutely needs to be discussed, regardless of how uncomfortable Greens supporters are with it. For about 20 years the Greens have been able to say whatever they like to say without scrutiny. They can claim that they will do this, this or that without having to stand up to scrutiny for fully costed policies, or deal with electorates where whatever policy they may be talking about may have a detrimental affect on jobs for example. They have never had to stand up to scrutiny for how they will operationalise something, or how it will affect us on a global scale. As a protest party, this is their job. To protest.

    However, now they want to be more than a protest party, they simply must be expected to stand up to scrutiny. I understand it is uncomfortable for Greens supporters to have to come to this realisation, that sometimes when you research the facts on Greens facebook pages, that it isn’t the whole truth. Such as the “Labor refuses a federal ICAC” when in fact it was the Greens who gagged the debate in the Senate as an example. The more the Greens want to try to take up progressive held seats and try to stand up against Labor, these things are not going to left untouched. They will be exposed and defended. Do you just expect Labor to ‘cop it on the chin’?

    Labor and their supporters are used to being, condemned, vilified, name called, laughed at, ridiculed by so many people who frequent this site, but point the scrutiny stick at the Greens and it is “ALL Labor’s fault” straight out of the LNP hand book. How about being the ‘balanced, intelligent, superior people’ you claim Labor supporters who frequent this site are not, and view this through a different lens?

    How about you look at it through the lens that the Greens are trying to take up a space in Government, through all political means necessary to all parties and they need to be held to account. If they want to do deals with other parties to win power, if they want to spread untruths about Labor, if they want to say they can do it better – then they MUST be held to account and people need to stop walking around on eggshells around them, as if they are some frail individual to treat with kid gloves. If they want to reach out to the dark side and play footsies with the right then, there will people who have disgust and mistrust towards them. Including me and that is something that DOES need to be discussed.

    People voting blindly for Greens because they are the ‘assumed good guys on the left’ when clearly the turn of events over the past year sheds a huge spotlight on the fact that maybe they are not. Maybe they are no longer the party that Labor can rely on if Labor governs in tight circumstances? I’m sorry, but I do not trust Di Natale to guarantee Labor support in the event of a hung parliament. There are many things that Greens supporters do not understand from the Labor perspective and that has a lot to do with the protests and demands of the Greens of the past have impacted negatively on Labor and the nation as a result. Carbon Tax and Malaysia Solution are two I could name.

    The Greens need to stop just trying to look like the cool kids, they need to actually now earn people’s respect and as much as many who comment on here don’t like that – not every one respects them and and considering they claim to be left, that is something we should talk about. Not shut down.

  230. Trish Corry

    Bob, after the vile, nasty diatribe you left for me on my other blog; you can choke on your opinion for all I care.

  231. Jexpat

    Trish:

    Here’s something to think about:

    BUSTED: Trump-loving comment trolls pose as Sanders and Clinton supporters to divide Democrats

    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/busted-trump-loving-comment-trolls-pose-as-sanders-and-clinton-supporters-to-divide-democrats/

    Obviously, I’m not making any sort of similar accusations here- just pointing out the effect (and why the far right loves such the effect so much that they take their own time to stoke and encourage it).

  232. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Like I said before Trish, we need to STOP the bitching and work together to get rid of our common enemy, the LNP, on 2 July 2016.

    Then, when we sort out all our won Greens, Labor, Indies and possibly new Progressive seats, we negotiate for Good Governance based on principles and policy prioritisation that satisfies the various participants of the Alliance. That will bring a refreshing change into how good governance is done while neoliberalism will be snuffled out.

  233. Jaquix

    Trish, you make very valid points and your comment really could be expanded a little and become an article on this forum? I agree with you, I think the Greens are at a bit of a turning point. Do they for instance have their policies costed, and a shadow budget prepared? Yes they have been a very useful ginger group in the past, but now perhaps they need to become more mature and not rely on the protest vote.
    Nasty Comments – One thing I have always enjoyed about TheAIMN is that the comment-ers generally stick to commenting on the articles. They do not act like trolls, or attack those making comments that dont accord with their own opinions. I would hope that there is a moderator who keeps nasty comments out of these pages. There is enough of that elsewhere. TheAIMN is a breath of fresh air. Lets keep it that way.

  234. Trish Corry

    JMS – holding a party to account and bitching are two very different things.

    Jexpat – Yes, the Sanders group – the Group that is promising the earth knowing full well it will never get passed in their parliament, trying to destabilize the moderate left who will need to make concessions and negotiate is very typical of the Greens/Labor dilemma.

    Where this differs is whoever does not win the Democrat selection, has the opportunity to rally behind the other person and maybe even be their running mate, refocus for the Presidential campaign. That is not the case with the Greens. They will continue to try to undermine, dig and stab at Labor until election day and beyond in their pursuit for power and MUST be held to account.

  235. Backyard Bob

    As a protest party, this is their job. To protest.

    Jesus H. Could you be any more patronising? That’s rhetorical, it’s you, of course you can. You know, I’m a Labor man, a true believer, of sorts, but this sort of rhetoric makes me want to apologise for it, and that, I have to admit, pisses me off (partly because such a feeling is somewhat irrational).

    Labor and their supporters are used to being, condemned, vilified, name called, laughed at, ridiculed by so many people who frequent this site

    Oh, madam, you need therapy for that gigantic victim neurosis. Seriously. When you speak like this is does nothing more than to reinforce why you cannot, possibly, be taken seriously. But there’s a little nod here to another discussion about racism, identity and in-group preferencing dynamics that lead to problems.

    How about being the ‘balanced, intelligent, superior people’ you claim Labor supporters who frequent this site are not, and view this through a different lens?

    Trish Corry, the gift that keeps on giving.

    Bob, after the vile, nasty diatribe you left for me on my other blog; you can choke on your opinion for all I care.

    Oh, you mean the one where I suggested you flush your head down a toilet? Oh, wait, that was you ….

    [rolls eyes]

    The Trish/Bob mutual hate-fest aside, this Labor/Greens bickering dynamic is nevertheless interesting. What’s behind it, exactly? From the Labor side of things surely it can only signify that Labor feels threatened by the Greens. Why else would they bother? From a Greens point of view this can only be heartening in terms of their own political ambitions. It indicates they matter. Both the ALP and Liberals started from not that much….

  236. Trish Corry

    Jexpat – as for Trump supporters posing as democrats. It happens here. With Greens and Liberals on Labor sites. It starts out with “As a lifetime Labor voter………….” some have been busted. I just ignore them.

  237. Trish Corry

    Honestly Bob, go soak your head with your nasty personal crap attacks at me. They don’t work and I don’t know what jollies you get out of them. This is Victoria’s post, but you will never have a comment approved on my posts ever again.

  238. Backyard Bob

    One thing I have always enjoyed about TheAIMN is that the comment-ers generally stick to commenting on the articles. They do not act like trolls,

    This article is an exercise in trolling, so I think all bets are sort of, well, off, at least in this context.

  239. Kaye Lee

    Trish,

    ” I understand it is uncomfortable for Greens supporters to have to come to this realisation, that sometimes when you research the facts on Greens facebook pages, that it isn’t the whole truth. Such as the “Labor refuses a federal ICAC”

    How about YOU do some research!

    Tony Sheldon, national secretary of the Transport Workers Union and a former party vice-president, had included a motion for a federal independent commission against corruption at the 2015 national ALP conference but it was taken down at the last minute.

    It failed to get internal parliamentary party support, including from Gray, Labor’s shadow special minister of state.

    Asked by Guardian Australia why he did not support the concept of a federal Icac, Gray said the ALP national conference had never done so.

    “The [final] resolution spelled out in detail the multiple levels of integrity and assurance in place at the federal level which already work,” Gray said. “An Icac-type body is needed where there is a lack of institutions to protect the integrity of public processes and the public interest. This is not the case federally.

    “Although the need for an Icac-type body has been discussed for 30 years, the ALP has always rejected a federal Icac while supporting and reviewing existing integrity measures.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/jul/29/labor-conference-rejected-push-federal-anti-corruption-commission

    You also state “They can claim that they will do this, this or that without having to stand up to scrutiny for fully costed policies”

    Perhaps you have never checked but the Greens DO do costings for their policies. In fact they do them and release them well before Labor does if the last election is anything to go by.

    “All up, the Greens have sent 74 policies to be costed by the PBO since 14 August.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2013/sep/05/greens-credit-upfront-costings

    Let’s get some truth in this debate rather than over-emotional bullshit

  240. Backyard Bob

    Trish,

    Honestly Bob, go soak your head with your nasty personal crap attacks at me.

    Oh, for Christ’s sake get a clue. My “attacks” on you are not personal. I’m “attacking” you as a Labor mouthpiece. If you don’t like that I suggest you stop being one.

    God give me strength.

  241. Backyard Bob

    Kaye Lee,

    Shorten has himself stated he sees no need for a Federal ICAC (Lateline interview, I think – can’t be arsed Googling it). Maybe Trish is thinking of the Labor members who actually do want such a thing, in the same sense as Labor members who want a different approach to Asylum Seekers.

    Ok, now I’m being generous to her for no reason… geez….

  242. diannaart

    @Trish Corry

    Do you even stop to ponder what you are saying?

    …as for Trump supporters posing as democrats. It happens here. With Greens and Liberals on Labor sites…

    …and Labor never, ever infiltrates Greens or the Ellenpees?

    Pot, kettle.

    However, you have provided an example of the bitching, Kaye Lee (and many others) wish would cease… consider how much more easily the Ellenpees can be toppled with concerted effort by all progressives. Labor still is progressive isn’t it? (Ooops, I’ll go sit in the naughty corner, KL)

  243. Trish Corry

    Kaye, your obviously defensive angry stance in response to my comment highlights that you are indeed uncomfortable with the Greens being held to account. I knew that instead of addressing the broader context of the Greens need to be held to account, that someone would nitpick at the other information I put in the comment above. I am not hear to discuss the merits or not of ICAC or argue who said what. However, time and time again, I see a Greens post and it is not the whole truth or a half truth. Please accept that they are a political party and not a party of Angels.

    The Greens may cost their policies, I never said the didn’t have them costed, but they are NOT held to the same standard as Labor and Liberals by the public, nor the media. That needs to start happening.

    Why is it ok for you to hold Labor to account, but the Greens get off scott free? Are people not allowed to talk about their distrust of the Greens, even if it is happening? Are people not allowed to start questioning the Greens motives as a party who claims they can take power? Should the public not concern itself about what sort of leaders they will be? Yes, they should.

    My post was not over emotional bullshit either. Who made you judge and jury of my emotions?

  244. Stuart Dobson

    Why not just vote in this order:
    – Greens
    – Labor
    – Everyone else
    – Liberal

    Could also swap Labor and Everyone else.

  245. Backyard Bob

    I am not hear to discuss the merits or not of ICAC or argue who said what.

    Oh… my… God, I’m in the Twilight Zone. I knew it! I knew all along this couldn’t possibly be real! Hah!

  246. Athena

    “For about 20 years the Greens have been able to say whatever they like to say without scrutiny. They can claim that they will do this, this or that without having to stand up to scrutiny for fully costed policies, or deal with electorates where whatever policy they may be talking about may have a detrimental affect on jobs for example. ”

    @ Trish
    As has been discussed on this site many times, Australia is sovereign to its own currency. So your argument of costed policies is irrelevant. There’s plenty of money for searching for a missing Malaysian jet, mistreating asylum seekers, buying fighter jets and getting involved in wars that are none of our business.

    Has it ever occurred to you that investing in the slowing down of climate change will create jobs? That investing in science will create jobs and industries? ALP has jumped on the bandwagon now and is dropping the “I” word at every opportunity – Innovation. But ask them how they intend to invest in innovation and they can’t provide any specific answers, because they’re as clueless as the Liberal Party when it comes to innovation. Both are expecting the private sector to do all the heavy lifting, on the verge of a recession. I don’t need a crystal ball to know that isn’t going to happen.

    Bring on the hung parliament. Until then it will just be one or the other major party bowing to big business.

  247. Trish Corry

    No idea Dianne. I don’t frequent the Green’s or Labor’s pages, enough to take notice. But I know it happens on Labor pages, because people were exposed for it.

    Do you even stop to ponder what you are saying? Was there a need for that remark? Honestly? Did that little quip fill you with personal bravado for a few seconds? Of course, I clearly think about what I say. I would never insult you to ask you the same.

    Two things are happening in the comments. There are 95% of commenters who support Greens on here and Victoria’s post has made them very uncomfortable that someone has spoken up and said the Greens need to be held to account.

    There are a small number of people who agree with the post and the ones who are uncomfortable with the Greens being held to account are increasing their attacks on the people who agree with the post. It is consistent throughout the thread.

    Maybe ask yourself, why are you so uncomfortable with the Greens being held to account and why you think that Labor supporters should just shut up and not defend or deflect the lies and deceit from that camp?

  248. Keith

    There are matters that I don’t like about the Greens and Labor; but, I loath the lies coming from the COALition. I loath how the LNP is pulling apart all the civilizing features that have made Australia great. They have presented us with a shambolic NBN, and they have been sneaky in relation to medical services generally. Wages have not been going up for years; and yet, they are tackling penalty rates. Even though wages have not been going up it has not been reflected in more jobs being created. They try and con us with the trickle down theory. Thousands of jobs are about to be lost in the motor industry.
    Culture is being is being torn apart by these philistines.
    Education represents the future for our Nation, another area that is being attacked.

    The direct action plan is nothing but a scheme to hand tax payer monies over to the big end of town.
    Three more years of the COALition means loss of effort in dealing with climate change; we do not have three years to waste.

    The up shot is that progressive voters have a common enemy to deal with; infighting now provides oxygen for the dark side.

  249. Jexpat

    Trish Corry:

    You seem not to understand the US political system. Sanders voters would LOVE nothing more than to have the opportunity that we have to preference him first, and Clinton second (and visa versa for Clinton supporters).

    Unfortunately, they cannot do that in a first past the post system- so they’re stuck (and so the country’s marched endlessly on into oligarchy, as confrimed by researchers Martin Gilens and Benjamin Page in their landmark study).

    Ask Canadians how they feel too, having suffered through years of a right wing Harper regime, that received less than 40% of the vote, due to first past the post vote splitting between the progressive NDP and the centrist Canadian Liberal party.

    In Australia, we have the opportunity to avoid that, provided we use our preferential voting system wisely.

    To succeed, folks need to set aside their tribal bickering for the next several weeks- and realise that there are bigger fish to fry.

    To do otherwise is in effect, Trump trolling.

  250. Kaye Lee

    “Kaye, your obviously defensive angry stance in response to my comment highlights that you are indeed uncomfortable with the Greens being held to account. I knew that instead of addressing the broader context of the Greens need to be held to account, that someone would nitpick at the other information I put in the comment above.”

    I have nothing to defend except the truth. I have no affiliation with the Greens or with Labor. If you mean by “addressing the broader context” that I should ignore the incorrect statements you are making then I am sorry, that’s not what I do. The truth is important to me.

    You are “allowed” to discuss whatever you want but people here rely on us to be factual.

    “Who made you judge and jury of my emotions?”

    What an incredibly silly thing to say from someone who has just described my attempt at correcting your mistakes as ” your obviously defensive angry stance.” You take all this far too personally Trish.

  251. Trish Corry

    Oh Dear, Athena, you need to catch up on Labor policies. They had innovation as the core of their policy set and the Libs ran with it. This is including a funding network for entrepreneurs.

  252. Athena

    “Kaye, your obviously defensive angry stance in response to my comment highlights that you are indeed uncomfortable with the Greens being held to account. I knew that instead of addressing the broader context of the Greens need to be held to account, that someone would nitpick at the other information I put in the comment above.”

    Trish, go home. You’re drunk.

  253. Trish Corry

    Athena, you have called biggy a dickhead, Nurse a Numpty and implied Victoria is a moron. Now I’m drunk. Maybe you should just pull your head in.

  254. Athena

    “Oh Dear, Athena, you need to catch up on Labor policies. They had innovation as the core of their policy set and the Libs ran with it. This is including a funding network for entrepreneurs.”

    Oh dear, Trish, you need to communicate all that fabulous ALP innovation to your politicians so they can answer questions intelligently.

  255. Athena

    “Athena, you have called biggy a dickhead, Nurse a Numpty and implied Victoria is a moron. Now I’m drunk. Maybe you should just pull your head in.”

    Well I certainly won’t bother to read any more articles written by you or Victoria. Good luck trading on your kids’ future. You’re going to need it.

  256. diannaart

    Of course, I clearly think about what I say.

    Please let me know when you intend doing this, because comments like “greens & Libs” infiltrating Labor blogs, yet no mention of Labor supporters doing same indicates a complete lack.

    I do not get ANY pleasure arguing with you. How many times must I and others here call for collaboration, instead we get nonsense like this:

    “..the Greens need to be held to account…

    Have you been living in a cave for the past 30 years? The Greens have been pilloried by both Labor and Liberals since its formation.

    Do you understand the difference between a smear campaign and holding to account? After the appalling treatment of Julia Gillard, I would think you would, guess I am wrong – not that there’s anything unusual about me being wrong, but at least I can admit it.

  257. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Further to Athena’s intelligent comment, I would like Trish, Victoria and the other such Labor people to go to Billy Shorten and to promote the fundamental need for microfinancing to be made available by Government NOT banks NOR crowdfunding NOR venture capitalists, so that ordinary Australians with energy, passion, good ideas, work ethics, skills, qualifications and/or experience, can get their micro businesses up, running and sustainable.

    Our Sovereign currency allows for the distribution of sufficient funding to fund such enterprises that will help people OUT of unemployment or under-employment and INTO their own self-employment that in reasonable time will provide further employment for others languishing on welfare or in deadend jobs.

    Labor needs to pull its head out of the sand and see where the true Innovation can happen by providing Micro Finance for a reasonable interim period that is over and above low and no income workers. It can take the form of either Micro Finance Grants or Micro Credit Loans.

    Then, not only will we have a robust employment market, but a flourishing homegrown diverse industrial base that will make Australia strong again and not dependent upon sellout trade agreements like CHAFTA and TPP.

    This will promote a healthier, happier socio-economic system that will promote Micro Biz and snuffle out neoliberalism that concentrates money-making power in Big Biz at the expense of a equitable macro and micro economic system.

    (Before I’m accused of picking only on Labor, I strongly advocate this proposal to the Greens too.)

  258. Matters Not

    This was never going to have a happy ending.
    And the hole keeps getting deeper. ?

  259. Keith

    If you are very passionate about the policies your particular party is promoting why not put effort in writing about that on another forum…Green or Labor. Labor was accused not long ago about giving the COALition a free run; they had been putting policies together which now have the COALition looking dopey. The Greens have been pushing hard in relation to climate policy ( though still not strong enough) and like Labor have strong views on social justice.
    Rather than fight here, present a case for your preferences on other forums without attacking perceived progressive foes.

  260. Trish Corry

    “Well I certainly won’t bother to read any more articles written by you or Victoria. Good luck trading on your kids’ future. You’re going to need it.”

    Oh Someone called me out on my nasty name calling. I’m not going to read anything they have to say now………..

    Here is a hint Athena – debates such as these are NOT comfortable. But you do not need to resort to name calling, nor snide remarks. I don’t care who reads my stuff to be honest. I write because I have something to say. Take it or leave it. It does not affect me.

  261. Backyard Bob

    This was never going to have a happy ending.

    Depends how much you enjoy watching chicks fighting, I suppose. Yeah, ok, ok, that was wrong on a few levels. I needed the laugh, at any rate.

  262. Trish Corry

    Jennifer – In the Labor party you can actively participate in policy formation. We have a regional conference, a state conference and a Federal conference. I participate in that and put forward policy ideas. You can either join a party and be part of the change you want to see, or as a citizen you can write to any politician you like and advocate for change. I am not anyone’s lackey. I advocate for the areas that interest me. I suggest if you are so concerned about Labor’s lack of innovation policy, you contact him yourself.

    I am always suspicious when someone doesn’t address the actual policy and what is wrong with it, or how it can improve, but just talks about some ideal they think it should be, without even knowing if any of those elements exist within current policy, or if they do or don’t, they do not articulate it. Why is that?

  263. jimhaz

    So the ALP are also a born to rule party it would seem.

    Those who are closest together often fight the most. This tiff reminds me a bit of the inanity of Sunnis and Shiites warring each other over technicalities.

    The ALP might blame the Greens for losing the last election to Abbott – perhaps too many compromises under Gillard leading to a carbon tax set at too high a rate, thus attracting a plethora of enemies.

    Next to the recognised opposition, the biggest enemy was actually the media. I reckon they should form a single issue alliance to go on a fully fledged strategic attack on the Murdoch and shockjock media, until the war is won. We cannot progress with those cretins having tied the Ship of Australia’s steering wheel to always go to the right.

  264. Trish Corry

    Diannaart – “Of course, I clearly think about what I say. Please let me know when you intend doing this……”

    I have already articulated that I do not frequent other groups to take note. It was merely an observation on my part that people have been exposed on Labor threads (I do frequent) that are Greens or Liberals pretending to be “Ex Labor voters” I cannot understand your rationale for generalising this into an all encompassing view that I must be a complete moron and can’t think for myself. I did not say it doesn’t happen on other sites, and nor do I care. I don’t participate in it, but I have seen it in groups I frequent as they were exposed. I hope that is clear enough. If you have any examples of Labor people posing as ex-greens voters or ex-liberals – please cut and paste, but that was not my argument, but you can make it yours if you like. It is not something I am particularly interested in. I just ignore those people.

  265. Athena

    Trish, I don’t give a damn about name calling. Call me all the names you want. It’s all water off a duck’s back to me. I won’t be bothering with your articles any more because you’ve totally lost the plot. I’ve noticed in the past that you seldom answer questions put to you and rather than accept that your chosen party has some problems, you seek to distract by pointing at the Greens. But you really have totally lost it this time. You can blame the Greens until the cows come home. The fact is, that will never fix the problems with the ALP. Just as we see through the LNP’s distractions by blaming Labor for everything, so too we see through yours.

  266. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Trish,

    I have actually written to several Labor politicians advocating my Government-backed Micro Finance Grants and Micro Credit Loans proposals. Jenny Macklin expressed an interest in her response.

    I have also spoken at the Labor Conference in Melbourne last year in front of Ed Husic and Jason Clare about this same proposal. Unfortunately when Bill Shorten a little later came into the room, he went onto emphasise how any funding would be Bank-banked. To be fair, he wasn’t in the room when I advocated Government-funded Micro Finance for struggling people wanting to start up Micro Businesses, but Labor’s automatic assumption that the funding would be Bank-backed proves to me their lack of realistic awareness about how many projects are potentially lost because they are the brainchilds of lowly-resourced people, which the Banks wouldn’t condescend to deal with.

    Does that answer your suspicion?

  267. Trish Corry

    Oh lol Ok. Now it is the Trish has totally lost it stance. I haven’t called you any names Athena. I asked you to pull your head in and stop calling other people names. You don’t know a thing about me. Please stop assuming you do. Good luck with fixing the country with your one seat in parliament.

  268. Athena

    “I am always suspicious when someone doesn’t address the actual policy and what is wrong with it, or how it can improve, but just talks about some ideal they think it should be, without even knowing if any of those elements exist within current policy, or if they do or don’t, they do not articulate it. Why is that?”

    Ok, I’ll ask. Which of those elements mentioned by Jennifer exist within ALP policy? What provisions have been made for them?

    As I stated before, ALP politicians are being asked how the ALP intends to invest in innovation, but we’re not being given answers. Why is that?

  269. Kaye Lee

    “that was wrong on a few levels”

    make that every level.

    One thing I find interesting is the annoyance of Labor at the Greens running campaigns in the seats held by Albanese and Plibersek. Do they think the Greens will have more chance of winning a seat where the majority of people are Liberal voters? They are making inroads against the Nats in some places but it is surely understandable that they would contest seats where voters are inclined towards their policies. Just like Labor is doing by running Sophie Ismail in Bandt’s seat of Melbourne who immediately gained publicity for disagreeing with Labor policy. All parties play the same manipulative games for their own ends.

  270. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Where has Victoria gone? I’m starting to feel a bit sorry for Trish trying her best to withstand the onslaught of our questions alone.

  271. Athena

    “It was merely an observation on my part that people have been exposed on Labor threads (I do frequent) that are Greens or Liberals pretending to be “Ex Labor voters” ”

    Oh yeah, must be a lie because there’s no such thing as an ex-Labor voter. Bwahahahaha!

  272. Athena

    “Where has Victoria gone? I’m starting to feel a bit sorry for Trish trying her best to withstand the onslaught of our questions alone.”

    Jennifer, I’ve never seen Victoria comment on any article on this site, not even her own.

  273. Trish Corry

    Athena if you are just going to troll all day without contributing, please expect me to ignore you. Which I will be from now on.

  274. diannaart

    ….All parties play the same manipulative games for their own ends….

    Except for Labor who never do any of that cloak ‘n dagger stuff, I know this to be true because a Labor supporter told me so…

    😛

  275. Athena

    “I really hate looking stuff up for lazy people but here you go

    http://www.alp.org.au/poweringinnovation

    Thank you Trish. Do you mind if I send this to my local ALP candidate? He doesn’t seem to be aware of this.

  276. Kaye Lee

    I should add, I hope Albanese, Plibersek and Bandt all win their seats again because I believe all three to be valuable hard-working representatives. I can say this because I do not belong to any political party 🙂

  277. helvityni

    “We MUST vote the LNP OUT before they destroy Australia and our quality of life full stop”

    Thank you Jennifer Meyer-Smith for your sensible advise.

  278. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I do too, Kaye.

    I also want to see Feeney of Labor replaced by Alex Bhathal of the Greens. I never see him doing anything for his constituents. Maybe he’s made the same mistake as Sophie Mirabella of the Liberal Party by doing too much behind the scenes work for his Right faction within his party and not enough for his constituents.

    To critics, don’t start bitching because in this scenario, it would 2 + 2. That’s what democratic representation looks like.

  279. Andrew.

    So you think it is not okay for Greens to criticize Labor when Labor has been attacking the Greens now for ages? Progressive? how progressive do you see Labor as being? Not since Gough has labor been anything like of the Left. If Labor wanted progression it would not be attacking the Greens or supporting the TPP. Corporate centre right sell-outs.

  280. nurses1968

    I won’t butt in but I did read an interesting comment on Independent Australia that got me thinking.
    Wow, I think I agree, Jennifer, that sure soiunds like an ‘Alliance” to me, don’t you agree?
    The comment,

    “I can’t say I have been too interested in this election but given I have to vote I will follow Red Neds vote for the Senate and as I live in Wentworth of course Malcolm would be last on my green slip.
    What i am waiting for is Labor to grow a set of testicles and cut the Greens adrift.
    Labor poll about 4.5 to 5 million votes The Greens about 1 mill so preferences are always keeping the Greens afloat.
    Imagine if Labor were to direct that 5 million second preferences to the progressives as listed in Red Neds choices and leave the Greens out of the 12.
    We may then see a diverse Senate with Sex Party, Pirate Party and Socialist Alliance Senators, all ready to keep the Senate on its toes”

  281. Athena

    “What i am waiting for is Labor to grow a set of testicles and cut the Greens adrift.”

    Oh yeah, that definitely looks like the Greens refusing to work with the ALP. Great pick up there, nurses1968. Nothing gets past you, eh?

  282. corvus boreus

    Trish,
    I suppose I should take it as a given that you (who isn’t here to discuss any facts regarding a federal ICAC) were as outraged by Labor’s attempted ‘gag’ motion’ (aka ‘stop obfiscating and just phuqqen vote’ motion) on same-sex marriage recently as you seemingly still are about the Greens attempted ‘gag’ on the endless filibustering regarding an ICAC motion (one of several) a few years ago.
    Anything else would reek of HYPOCRISY.

    Ps, here’s the record for the last vote on a motion for an ICAC;
    https://theyvoteforyou.org.au/divisions/senate/2016-04-19/7

  283. Trish Corry

    I won’t be voting Green in the Senate at all if I can help it. It depends on what my choices are for QLD.

  284. nurses1968

    Athena
    Surely you lot would welcome evil Labor going it alone and letting the Greens get on with doing whatever they do unimpeded.
    The thing that surprises me with you lot, is if Labor are so bad, have bad policies ets etc
    Why the hell are you all so desperate to have them side up with the Greens?
    Do what Brown advocates, run an open ticket and go it alone
    Let Labor do the same.You know, that Labor that is so bad, so horrid
    Or do you realise just where you would be without Labor preferences
    I have read enough on here to advocate loud and clear to anyone who listens to leave the LNP and Greens off their Senate ticket and pick decent Independents or alternate parties to replace any thought they may have of putting Greens on a House of Reps ticket

  285. Trish Corry

    Guess what Corveus…..In politics, all sides do political maneuvering in parliament. It is the nature of the beast. I’m not sure what you are trying to suggest. Are you suggesting the only Labor does this and the Greens don’t?

    I have already stated the ICAC thing was just one example of the Greens spreading lies about Labor on ICAC. Labor would want a review of all systems before they would support an ICAC. That is how Labor operates. They aren’t a fringe mob who jump up and down, they need to determine what is wrong with the current system first, regardless of how untrendy they sound. BUT that does not mean, they would not consider an ICAC if there were failures in the current system that cannot be fixed.

    The ICAC example was not the focus of my comment, just an example. My question put to people that people haven’t answered is, why does holding the Greens to account and Labor defending their stance or labor supporters defending Labor against the Greens make people so uncomfortable?

  286. Athena

    “The thing that surprises me with you lot, is if Labor are so bad, have bad policies ets etc
    Why the hell are you all so desperate to have them side up with the Greens?”

    Nurses1968, once again you don’t seem to have noticed that Victoria’s article is about blaming the Greens for not wanting to work with the ALP.

    Another attempt by nurses1968 to derail another rusted on ALP supporter with more evidence that the ALP does not want to work with the Greens coming up in 3, 2, 1…..

  287. Athena

    “The ICAC example was not the focus of my comment, just an example. My question put to people that people haven’t answered is, why does holding the Greens to account and Labor defending their stance or labor supporters defending Labor against the Greens make people so uncomfortable?”

    There’s no discomfort here. If the Greens felt that they had something to hide, they wouldn’t be supporting the implementation of a federal ICAC. I would expect everyone to be held to account there.

    ” Labor would want a review of all systems before they would support an ICAC. That is how Labor operates. They aren’t a fringe mob who jump up and down, they need to determine what is wrong with the current system first, regardless of how untrendy they sound. ”

    That’s the purpose of ICAC to determine what is wrong with the current system without partiality. Leaving the government to investigate their own backyard is like leaving the rat in charge of the cheese.

  288. silkworm

    Trish has shown her true colours by voicing her opposition to Bernie Sanders.

  289. Trish Corry

    Once again. misleading comments from Greens about ICAC is an example. I’m not interested in debating ICAC. I can see very clearly that Victoria’s post and supporting comments have made many people uncomfortable.

  290. Jexpat

    Athena: the quote “What i am waiting for is Labor to grow a set of testicles and cut the Greens adrift.”

    Has now appeared under a new low post count, hidden posting history identity on another progressive site- attempting to sow discord.

    Curious, isn’t it?

  291. Athena

    Jexpat, I’m not surprised. Good thing I don’t take any notice of personal opinion when I vote. 😉

  292. Deanna Jones

    It’s not easy being Green.

  293. corvus boreus

    Guess what Trish,
    There are clear and blatant examples of shonky trade in the current political process that obviously show it needs fixing, and the last public poll on the subject (SMH) showed 98% public support for a federal ICAC-style body.
    You may think the notion of accountability for our politicians (and the courtiers who surround them) is ‘trendy’ or ‘fringe’, but to most residents of NSW, who have been pillaged by corrupt conduct from within both the LIBS and LABS (esp.the Terrigal mob), a federal ICAC seems like a sound and necessary measure to protect the public interest from policy purchasing.
    I understand that some controls and safeguards are necessary for such a body, but the only response from Labor people thus far has been obfuscation, denial of necessity or the old and stale ‘the greens tried to gag debate’ chestnut, with no sensible amendments or counter-proposals being tabled.
    What am I trying to suggest? Simply that some entrenched forces within the ranks of Labor (and others), namely those who draw benefit from dubious or corrupt dealings, are opposed to any real measures to hold them publicly accountable.
    I do not for one minute believe that the Greens are entirely pristine, but their willingness to open their own lockers suggests they have far less to hide than the older players at the table.

  294. Trish Corry

    Silkworm – True Colours? I don’t oppose Bernie Sanders WTF? But I’m certainly no radical leftist who just likes shouty shiny things and I certainly back those who can actually achieve reform, rather than those who just talk about it. That does not make me a Bernie hater at all. But I think he should be a bit more realistic rather than populist. Abbott was a populist and that went well didn’t it?

    I don’t really care about the current USA political debate. I want Obama to continue forever. No one really strikes me as being close to the leader he has been.

  295. Trish Corry

    Guess What Corvus, I don’t give two shits about ICAC. Frankly, it bores me as much as negative gearing. This is not the topic of debate here. Please stop trying to derail the topic to one that suits you. We are talking about this article. Not ICAC.

  296. Kaye Lee

    You are damn right the post is making me uncomfortable! This ridiculous division is such a party insider thing that the rest of us don’t give two hoots about except for the fact that you have naively been manipulated into doing Michael Kroger’s work for him.

    You say others don’t answer your questions – I ask you again Trish….Why would Michael Kroger make public a deal to preference the Greens?

    Remember how you lost the last election by squabbling and attacking your own side? Perhaps you need to listen to unaligned voters during a campaign. You talk about Greens being on their high horse – look at what you are doing! Green germs, fingers crossed, no return. Too damn silly for words.

    Both you and Victoria write very well Trish. I wish you would devote that talent to explaining, or even improving, Labor policy and to explaining to people that preference deals mean nothing at all because they have the power to direct their own preferences.

  297. nurses1968

    Athena,
    Typical, you didn’t answer one question.
    please refer back to my comment and answer rather than rant

  298. Kaye Lee

    As for Federal ICAC, it was you who brought it up as an example of a lying smear campaign from the Greens but when faced with facts, you no longer want to talk about something that almost all of the rest of the population see as very important. It is something that would win Labor a lot of support but you aren’t interested. To say that the current system is working, or to have yet another “review”, is laughable.

    Are you campaigning for votes or for party purity?

  299. corvus boreus

    Trish,
    OK, since the fact that corrupting influences blatantly pervert public policy is so tedious (or uncomfortable) to you, and any potentially constructive discussion of such is seen as ‘attempted derailment’, I’ll leave you to it.
    You reinforce the reasons I am unwilling to cast any vote for your party.

  300. Athena

    Numpties1968, I’ve already stated I’m hoping for a hung parliament. In case you still can’t manage to work it out, I’m not desperate for an alliance. I’ll be voting for the party that is best fit for what I view as important for the future of all Australians. I expect everyone else will do the same. We are supposed to be living in a democracy after all, aren’t we?

  301. Trish Corry

    “Green germs, fingers crossed, no return. Too damn silly for words.”
    What on earth do you read INTO my comments Kaye? Seriously?

    It appears that people cannot legitimately dislike the Greens and have an opinion on it, but it is fine for people to champion their hatred for Labor.

    “Both you and Victoria write very well Trish. I wish you would devote that talent to explaining, or even improving, Labor policy and to explaining to people that preference deals mean nothing at all because they have the power to direct their own preferences.”

    And what would you know about what I do or do not contribute to policy or debate within my own party? I don’t know Victoria, but you are making the same assumption that she doesn’t contribute either! How would you know? Why would you even make this assumption?

    You have implied I take things personally and I’m too ‘over emotional’ but seriously, you cannot keep making value judgements about people and expect them NOT to take it personally. You talk about an individual and not a topic – that then is personal.

    Have I even focused on preference deals? No, I don’t think so. I heard DiNatale say with my own ears in a TV interweave that he would consider working with either side if it gave his people portfolios. He then went on to say he is in the business of one day winning Government. That was the day the alarm bells starting ringing for me with the Greens and it just got worse from there. This has nothing to do with Michael Kroger or any other rubbish you are trying to imply I am saying or believing.

    Squabbling and attacking our own side is history. Shorten has united the party and it is going from strength to strength. Defending attacks from the Greens or pointing out Greens hypocrisy is not the same thing. Please stop implying the Greens are an extension of Labor. They are not. They are a completely different party altogether. The are in Opposition to Labor.

    This is WHY we need to discuss articles such as Victoria’s so these myths start to get cleared up. The Greens and Labor may agree on some things, but they are not an extension of each other and they take very different views in terms of policy and practice on a range of issues. Labor has enough intelligent, compassionate, social democratic people within their own party to determine their own direction. We don’t need to be lumped with the Greens. I’m sure they can stand on their own, like we have for over 100 years.

  302. Kaye Lee

    nurses1968,

    Having reread your questions, I don’t think you were actually asking for a response.

    “Surely you lot would welcome evil Labor going it alone and letting the Greens get on with doing whatever they do unimpeded.”

    “The thing that surprises me with you lot, is if Labor are so bad, have bad policies ets etc why the hell are you all so desperate to have them side up with the Greens?”

    “Do what Brown advocates, run an open ticket and go it alone let Labor do the same. You know, that Labor that is so bad, so horrid
    Or do you realise just where you would be without Labor preferences.”

    “I have read enough on here to advocate loud and clear to anyone who listens to leave the LNP and Greens off their Senate ticket and pick decent Independents or alternate parties to replace any thought they may have of putting Greens on a House of Reps ticket”

    Sigh….what do you expect in answer to that belligerent chest poke?

  303. Athena

    “You reinforce the reasons I am unwilling to cast a vote for your party.”

    I agree with your assessment, CB.

  304. Trish Corry

    “As for Federal ICAC, it was you who brought it up as an example of a lying smear campaign from the Greens but when faced with facts, you no longer want to talk….”

    OH FFS – can someone not use something as an example without having to get into a full debate on the and thus derail the conversation? Yes, they should. It is an example. For Gods sake shut up about it and take your snide remarks with you. I’m getting a bit over it! I haven’t refused to discuss it, I have stated I don’t wish to, it is not the topic, I’m not interested in this convo being derailed and I find the topic boring. If you want to debate it, do not include me.

  305. Trish Corry

    Lol why Corvus? Let me get this straight. As a Labor supporter, because I don’t want to buy into your derailing of a topic, you refuse to vote for Health, Education, a proper NBN and so many other great policies because of my opinion? No wonder we have had Abbott and Turnbull for 3 years!

  306. Kaye Lee

    Do you “legitimately dislike” the Greens because of their policies, and if so which ones? I don’t hate Labor at all but I think you are doing them a great disservice by your attitude.

    I have no interest in your personal life Trish – my comments are in response to what you write here.

    You told me to get back to Victoria’s article – she mentioned many things in it including prefernec deals – but that’s another topic you aren’t focusing on. I would be interested to hear what you think Victoria’s article is about so I can restrict myself to the parts that interest you.

    I am not saying that the Greens are an extension of Labor. I am very aware of the policy differences, most of which you don’t want to actually talk about.

    And Trish, only you can leave you out of a conversation. You are under no compulsion to respond. I am sorry if you feel my comments have been snide. I have been doing what you consider so very important – discussing Victoria’s article. But that’s not what you want – you want me to agree with everything. Then you will have to do better to convince me.

  307. Athena

    “And what would you know about what I do or do not contribute to policy or debate within my own party? I don’t know Victoria, but you are making the same assumption that she doesn’t contribute either! How would you know? Why would you even make this assumption?”

    Trish has a point. For all we know, she and Victoria could be agitating within the ALP for an irrational attack on the Greens to distract from ALP deficiencies.

    “He then went on to say he is in the business of one day winning Government. That was the day the alarm bells starting ringing for me with the Greens and it just got worse from there.”

    People usually do run for government in the hope of winning.

  308. Trish Corry

    I think you missed the point that the alarm bells were he would side with the Libs if it meant portfolios. Surely so many people in love with the Greens here remember that fast backtrack!

  309. Athena

    “Labor has enough intelligent, compassionate, social democratic people within their own party to determine their own direction. We don’t need to be lumped with the Greens. I’m sure they can stand on their own, like we have for over 100 years.”

    Good. Now that we have that sorted, can we please cease and desist with the “If you don’t vote for ALP then you’re to blame for a Liberal government” nonsense? It clearly isn’t necessary when Labor is so good at standing on its own and is full of intelligent, compassionate, socially democratic people.

  310. nurses1968

    Kaye Lee, or any other closet Green or Green
    Should there be a clean break between Labor and Greens and each go their own way ?
    That surely is an easy question to answer

  311. Athena

    “I think you missed the point that the alarm bells were he would side with the Libs if it meant portfolios. Surely so many people in love with the Greens here remember that fast backtrack!”

    I only recall him mentioning portfolios in a Labor government.

  312. diannaart

    … and another thing, Labor has sided with LNP whenever the politics have suited them… why is it only outrageous if the Greens do the same?

    This hysteria because Di Natale is aiming to win more seats for the Greens? – no one in Labor saw that coming and are now very disappointed that Greens have not kept their place as second string to Labor’s bow.

    Boo Hoo

  313. corvus boreus

    Trish Corry,
    As I have stated before, the local Labor candidate will get a flow on vote in my HoR ballot (the one that goes towards forming the actual government). This will ultimately matter little towards who claims power, since my electorate is safe National.
    In the senate (the house of review), I will be voting for candidates (indi or minor) who clearly stand in alignment with my own views and values, likely starting with the Australian Progressives, working down through the more reasonable minors, then throwing a few morsels to the cleaner offerings amongst the Greens (who oft disappoint).
    I will not be voting for any Labor senate candidates because they have repeatedly bloc voted against motions that aligned with my core values and priorities (not just on ICAC, either).
    Your opinions, except in so far as they reflect those of your party, are irrelevant to my considerations.

    As for your attempt at projecting guilt for a coalition government, it is seriously misplaced, particularly since your party leader publicly stated that he was not willing to enter any negotiations to form a minority government in the event of a hung parliament.

  314. Athena

    “Should there be a clean break between Labor and Greens and each go their own way ?
    That surely is an easy question to answer”

    It’s a stupid question. The fact that some people have formed another party shows that each has already gone their own way. As we see in parliament, parties and independents vote for and against everyone else at some stage, depending on the issue. Regardless of their chest beating and posturing before an election, the major parties will negotiate with the minors and independents when they need the numbers to get their bills passed. I doubt that many Australians would be pleased with an election every year just because someone is opposing for the sake of opposing.

  315. Kaye Lee

    “Should there be a clean break between Labor and Greens and each go their own way ?”

    I don’t know how many effing times I have to say I want you to stop your bloody ridiculous childish squabbling, recognise that you broadly represent the same people, and stop actively undermining the chance we have to get rid of this government. Toddlers on Sesame Street are taught how to co-operate. In schools we teach children to tolerate difference. At work we must learn to negotiate to achieve goals. But bring on an election and watch all semblance of public interest be thrown away in favour of personal power.

    Is that a clear enough answer for you?

    As for your “closet Green” comment,….no party tells me what to think!

  316. Anomander

    So many short memories. The last government was a minority that incorporated the ALP, the Greens and independents, and together they managed to pass huge volumes of legislation including; a price of carbon, Gonski and the NDIS.

    All up against the white-anting from within the ALP, under constant onslaught from Abbott and the Libs, and abetted by the distorted Murdoch media, who went out of their way to undermine every one of their formidable achievements.

    The ALP and the Greens are not enemies – together we can change the country for the better. The sooner we realise we should join together to fight the common enemy, instead of pointlessly bickering, the better we will all be.

  317. nurses1968

    rephrase the question then
    Should the Greens stop their dependancy on Labor preferences and stand or fall on their own
    No Aliances, Coalitions whatever, or at least none involvong Labor

  318. nurses1968

    “I don’t know how many f*cking times I have to say I want you to stop your bloody ridiculous childish squabbling, recognise that you broadly represent the same people,” no they don’t

    “The ALP and the Greens are not enemies” I disagree there, just read comments

    “Toddlers on Sesame Street are taught how to co-operate” sometimes it is better to put them in individual classes

    Enough ALP heavies have made it known that they don’t want to deal with the Greens
    Kaye Lee as a “non party” participant don’t you think they have the right as members to determine their own parties position

  319. Kaye Lee

    Of course they do. Do I think they are shooting themselves in the foot AGAIN? Of course I do.

    You can play your little games about preferencing all you want. It means nada. WE get to choose our preferences.

    Party members are, from what I can see, completely out of touch with anyone outside their own little echo chamber. Good luck with it all.

  320. nurses1968

    Nick McKim confirms on #abc24 that a re-elected Liberal govt with more Green MPs would be a ‘good result’ for the Greens in this election.

  321. Kaye Lee

    And Labor confirms that they would not consider forming government if they had to negotiate with anyone at all.

  322. Jexpat

    nurses1968:

    Looks to me that a re-elected Liberal government would be “good for you” in some way.

    I’m curious as to what that way might be.

  323. Anomander

    Even the Libs recognised a long time ago that they could not form government in their own right. So they formed a coalition with the Nats.

    Sure, neither party gets their own way, the Libs are forced to adopt policies from the Nats and the Nats have to accept policies they may not always agree with.

    The Greens have openly stated they are prepared to work together to ensure the Libs are constrained. And if you look at the voting patterns, you’ll see that the Greens have been the only party opposing all the divisive Liberal policies.

    The ALP in being recalcitrant and refusing to even consider a deal with the Greens at all are demonstrating that they are far more stupid than the Libs, and in doing so they are the ones who are effectively handing government to the Coalition.

  324. Bighead1883

    Well there`s enough manure from the Victoria Rollinson “Greens Maiden Plate” to fertilize the Sydney Botanic Garden
    The horseshit from the regular jockeys trying to break Maiden status here is especially thick and my moderated comment was bang on
    Well done Victoria and Trish and do keep writing here just to give to these Greens brain aneurysms

  325. Athena

    “rephrase the question then
    Should the Greens stop their dependancy on Labor preferences and stand or fall on their own”

    You really are a nuisance1968. We’ve just had a change to senate voting so that people choose their own preferences instead of having the parties choose for them. On what planet is that equivalent to the Greens being dependent on Labor preferences?

    Now here’s a question for you. Can you post anything on this site without agitating between Labor and progressives? Because from day 1 you have been trolling and only posting to stir up crap. If your precious ALP loses, they can thank idiots like you for it.

  326. corvus boreus

    Athena,
    I suggest that you not set precedent for more serious personal abuse on this thread.

  327. Athena

    I’ll bet nurses1968 isn’t even a Labor voter. Every single post of hers has been aimed at agitation between people who mostly hold similar political views. She’s probably a Liberal stooge.

  328. Miriam English

    Perhaps sense will prevail and people will see the value in not alienating the people who would give preferences to Labor after voting for their own party.

    If I’m wrong and Victoria, Trish, nurses1968, and bighead1883 truly are representative of Labor and the party really is that aggressively insecure and anti-everybody then heaven help us if that becomes widely known, because Labor don’t have a snowflake’s chance in hell of being elected without preferences from other voters, especially with Murdoch pitted against them.

    The LNP strategists know this. That’s why they’re getting lying propaganda printed — to inflame division between Labor and Greens, which Victoria, Trish, nurses1968, and bighead1883 obediently gulp down and spew out here. And expect plenty more soon, to isolate Labor from everyone else too. Probably the same true-believers can be relied upon to drive Labor away from more people.

    Trish, Victoria, nurses1968, and bighead1883 just try to hold onto your hate for just a moment and stop doing the LNP’s job for them. You don’t have to be friends with the Greens or preference them. Just please don’t be so effective at convincing people that they shouldn’t vote Labor. You are doing Labor a massive disservice.

    And those arguing with them, please, please, I know it is hard to resist when they say things that are patently nonsensical, but please don’t keep this ridiculous argument going. The more they argue, the more of a wedge is driven between progressives, the more the work of the LNP is done.

    Labor can’t gain office without preferences from other progressive voters. The other progressives need Labor to win so they have a chance of some sanity in government. We, the people, need Labor to win and for their bad side to be held in check by the other progressives.

    We need each other in order to get rid of the LNP.

    Now, as Kaye said, can we just start acting like adults?

  329. Miriam English

    Please, Athena, you’re not helping.

  330. nurses1968

    Really, very patronising and Athena you really are a piece of work as I have said on here over the years {if you had been around long enough to read them} that I am a paid up member of the Socialist Alliance, have been since 2003 and don’t see any reason to change. Your ability to digest information seems to rival that of a goldfish so I won’t bother any further explanation.
    I will be voting ALP in this election as I know my party can’t win {again, something I have stated over the years} and I think it time the Greens acknowledged similar and the Greens won’t figure anywhere on my voting.
    Athena, if EVER you say anything even vaguely intelligent I think I will fall off my perch.
    There you are that leaves an opening for Greens and closet Greens

  331. Matters Not

    Only one hour to go before the time for enrolment of new voters expires. Did a trip around the neighbourhood this afternoon after collecting ‘Forms’ from the local Post Office.

    Yep, registered 6 new voters, all of whom are youths of Sudanese descent. (Their lack of ‘understanding’ is very worrying).

    Then I found you can do it ‘online’. Silly me.

    http://www.aec.gov.au/enrol/

    Ring around now! Go fishing.

  332. Kaye Lee

    Well done MN. All of my young relatives and their friends have already been harassed by me. My kids, 22 and 24. still live with me. Half the time their partners do too. When their friends come over I always do what I can to get them talking about the issues. The young people are my hope.

    On a personal note, I have to say how disappointing I find it that, after the literally thousands of hours I have spent over the last several years trying to hold the conservative government to account and to advance the progressive cause, that I am now to be dismissed as a “closet green” who is trying to “derail the topic”. Ok, that was my self-indulgent moment. Slaps self and gets back to the fray.

  333. Matters Not

    to say how disappointing I find it that, after the literally thousands of hours I have spent over the last several years trying to hold the conservative government to account and to advance the progressive cause, that I am now to be dismissed as a “closet green” who is trying to “derail the topic

    KL, frankly I am amazed that you ‘cop it’ with all good grace. Often I don’t. As a blog participant for perhaps longer than you, I’ve seen many, many good people come and go. It’s very, very sad.

    It’s why I blog under the moniker of Matters Not, because I am only interested in ‘ideas’ and try to keep the personal well away from the public.

    Nevertheless, this is a crucial time in the electoral cycle. You, me and others must keep ploughing on.

    One wonders whether Labor strategists monitor sites such as this. If so, I can imagine their horror when they see so many ‘bulls in the china shop’ as it were and the damage they do.

    It’s not ‘intentions’ that’s important at this time, but ‘outcomes’. Shakes head.

  334. Athena

    “I will be voting ALP in this election.”

    Jolly good for you, nurses1968. It must be wonderful to know so far out from an election, no matter what corruption is revealed, nor how bad it is, you’ve got your votes all worked out. Congratulations.

  335. Keith

    Kaye, I’m always impressed about the research you put into what you write and the quality of your contributions.
    I know you weren’t seeking any compliments. I’m of an age where ideas were much more respectfully discussed.

  336. corvus boreus

    Keith,
    I agree with you entirely regarding the informational quality and ethical soundness of Kaye Lee’s contributions.
    I would also like to add that the rational decency of your own inputs (even when discussing dire events like the emerging ‘permafrost’ melt) has not passed entirely unnoticed.

  337. Jexpat

    Kaye Lee wrote: “The young people are my hope.

    They embody all of our hopes- always have, and always will, since and on into time immemorial.

  338. Matters Not

    Keith, I am impressed with the quality of your links.

    Not that they provide any ‘new’ information of the scientific variety but that they ‘illuminate’ same in spades.

    Nevertheless, I must admit I had to ‘google’ a few concepts.

    I await your future posts.

  339. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Well done Matters Not,

    for encouraging young voters to enrol today before the deadline. I ensured my own young ones did and asked ABC774 radio with Jon Faine to do the same.

    Now, that the deadline is passed, we must encourage existing enrolled voters to see the reprehensible treatment dished out on all of us by this ugly LNP Government.

    So, nursers1968 and Bighead, I suggest you save your antagonism for the real opponents, who are the LNP.

    Like Kaye Lee, Miriam, diannaart, Anomander, Matters Not, Keith and other thoughtful commenters have informed you, keep your eyes on the prize of a landslide win on 2 July 2016 and be prepared to work with your allies in the Greens/Labor/Progressives/sane Independents Alliance.

  340. diannaart

    Thank you Jennifer and to all.

    An end to LNP in 2016.

  341. helvityni

    “Austria’s new president Alexander Van der Bellen: The green professor who beat the far-right”

    Good news from Austria.

    Maybe if our Greens and Labor are able to kiss and make up, there’ll be good news to come from Australia as well.

  342. nurses1968

    Athena, as I said, your attention span rivals a goldfish,this just confirms it
    “Jolly good for you, nurses1968. It must be wonderful to know so far out from an election, no matter what corruption is revealed, nor how bad it is, you’ve got your votes all worked out. Congratulations.”
    I note Kaye Lee Matters Not, Jennifer,diannaart and a bunch of others have said who they will vote for jusyt on this thread
    I guess your comment is aimed at them too?

  343. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Athena speaks good sense, nurses1968.

    I’m advertising my vote decision making, so I can open up discussion and give some undecided voters ideas about how they can plan their vote to the greatest effect for a New Robust Reformist Government that is a combination of the Greens, Labor, Progressive Parties and Independents.

    Listen to Helvi’s good news from Austria. Add a few letters to the end and that will be Australia too!

    Anyway, aren’t you late for work since you purport to work two jobs? Don’t let us keep you.

  344. Athena

    nurses1968, from what I’ve seen, Kaye Lee has not made up her mind. The others you list have mentioned multiple parties and tried to initiate discussion of the options. Unlike you, they’re certainly not brow beating everyone else into voting for their party and trying to lay down a guilt trip for everyone else who doesn’t do what they say. You really are deluded if you think that people who regularly frequent and contribute to a site like this are going to rush out and vote for your party just because you said they must. We’re capable of making up our own minds. We don’t need to join a party just so we can be told what to think.

  345. Miriam English

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/23/far-right-candidate-defeated-austrian-presidential-election-norbert-hofer

    It’s going to be a rocky road for Europe with the rise of racism there. Let’s hope Alexander Van der Bellen can make a difference there, though being elected on such a slim margin is very scary.

    All this racism, provincialism, and tribalism. [sigh] It makes be feel quite pessimistic for humanity sometimes.

    We are capable of such amazing things.

    I watched an interview with a 105 year-old Sydney-sider last night. This guy still builds electronic circuits and fixes people’s equipment, still clambers up on his roof and tinkers with his solar panels.

    He’s also an artist, and I love his comment about John Howard. 🙂

    I’ve been able to post a cheap tablet computer to a young girl in Zambia as a gift. It astonishes me that I’m able send a box to the other side of the world for someone I’ve never met — that I’ve only known through the internet. Out of all the billions of people on the planet it can make its way to that single human being!

    One of my amazing nieces returned from a trek across the mountains in Estonia recently. She met wonderful people there and was welcomed into the cabin of a dirt-poor couple who were intrigued by this young girl who’d travelled by herself into the wilderness from Australia and could speak Russian with them. They had nothing, but shared dinner with her. My niece is very poor in Australian terms, but unbelievably wealthy compared to these people.

    NASA has found thousands more planets around other stars, so that we now know that planets vastly outnumber stars. Ponder that when you look up at the night sky next.

    Edison Electric, a Canadian company, is creating communities that are sustainable, independent of the electric grid, have methane digesters, solar panels, banks of rechargeable EESDs developed by Robert Murray-Smith. They’re also building a new kind of electric car.

    Elon Musk has launched his Tesla Model 3 electric car with a more accessible price and stunning features that are available even in the base model.

    But at the same time we have racism and tribalism rearing its ugly head everywhere, needing very little encouragement from a cynical and exploitative mainstream media and vicious, opportunistic, right-wing politicians who make a virtue of ignorance. It sometimes feels like no matter how much we as humans learn, the shell of civilisation needs only a tiny poke and it is willingly shrugged off, as, fangs bared, we lunge for the kill. Everything lost in the moment of rabid abandon.

    [sigh] We need super-human artificial intelligence to rescue us from ourselves.

  346. nurses1968

    Jennifer,
    Sorry, I start at midday,
    What about you? paying your taxes are you
    A little desperation there trying to seize on Austrias effort, why not Britain?
    Aussie Leader of the Greens there

  347. Athena

    “But at the same time we have racism and tribalism rearing its ugly head everywhere, needing very little encouragement from a cynical and exploitative mainstream media and vicious, opportunistic, right-wing politicians who make a virtue of ignorance. ”

    Caring about anyone else besides yourself is a sign of weakness apparently and only worthy of ridicule.

  348. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Oh hum, nurses1968. Have a nice day!

    Miriam, thanks for your thought provoking post. Yes, I wish humanity’s advances were given the respect they deserve so that the pathetic tribalism is snuffled out.

  349. jimhaz

    [All this racism, provincialism, and tribalism. [sigh] It makes be feel quite pessimistic for humanity sometimes]

    These things probably were the greatest driver for our mental evolution so far (next to opposable thumbs).

    We have come a long way since our maximum level of racism – as cannibals :).

    Competition is like Time, it is intrinsic in everything. Groupism is here to stay, permanently.

  350. diannaart

    nurses1968

    My reasons for voting Labor for the Lwr House are purely pragmatic, which I have explained before. Of course, if Labor was revealed to be in league with the LNP, prior to 2 July 2016 …. I can always change my vote.

  351. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Spot on, diannaart.

  352. Miriam English

    jimhaz, I’ve heard people say before that such regressive forces as hate and war were great drivers of inventiveness and technology, but honestly, I’ve never really seen proof of it.

    Usually the things offered to shore up those claims actually tend to show the reverse. People will point to how a country can suddenly change their production from cars to fighter planes and bombs in months, women enter the workforce, people have a great sense of purpose and camaraderie, but to my mind they don’t show hate and racism as a driver of anything. They look to me as proof of how people coming together can do amazing things. In any case I believe production of useful* things drops during war and outbreaks of racism. They also tend to be accompanied by destruction of nature, goods, and people, whereas during peace and periods of general goodwill there is a flowering of invention and production of useful things.

    Thankfully we are gradually becoming a less racist and group-obsessed species. I live in hope that those petty hates and greater conflicts are one day entirely eradicated from our cultures.


    • I don’t consider guns, bombs, warplanes, tanks, submarines, and so on as useful things. They either destroy other things or are destroyed themselves (e.g. bombs). Useful things are food, books, movies, clothing, homes, beds, consumer electronics, pets, gardens, and so on.
  353. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear Miriam.

  354. nurses1968

    Reality check time for Greens as this echange shows
    GreensNthernBeaches
    “Liberals don’t have a plan to fix our economy. We need to invest in health, education and infrastructure. The Greens will’

    Heather
    ..”.Now,how will the Greens with 0.66% representation in Federal Parliament do that?”

    GreensNthernBeaches
    “Because the Greens punch way above their weight – always”

    Heather
    “Just tell me one thing Bandt has got through or done other than wasting space”

    GreensNthernBeaches BLOCKED Heather

    Heather

    “OMG, delusional”

  355. Athena

    nurses1968, why are you so upset about voting reform and keeping the micros out of the senate? What are they going to do with a handful of the votes?

  356. nurses1968

    there are some good micros and with careful distribution of preferences they could get up
    The voting ticket printed somewhere on here has very progressive micros include in the 12 and if they got elected and worked with Labor it would be exactly what Jennifer Meyer Smith has been arguing for in her “Alliance”
    I haven’t seen her acknowledge that but would expect her to acknowlege and endorse such a measure particularly this time round because of the DD. As Pauline Hanson seems likely to win one spot, progressives like Socialist Alliance, Sex Party and Pirate party could be strong allies for Labor and they may well end up with Labor in a loose {Jennifer Meyer Smith}Coalition to fight off the LNP
    With encouragement and if Labor had the tenacity to direct its almost 5 million Primary votes second preferences to the 3 Parties mentioned anything is possible
    Small amounts of votes add up as Scott Ludlam would attest having lost his Senate spot last election only to gain it back by I think about 14 votes in the re run

  357. Athena

    So in other words, the micros could hold the balance of power. So can the Greens, with a lot more votes. That’s how they achieve stuff with 0.66% representation.

  358. nurses1968

    Lets hope the Micros hold the numbers in the

    “That’s how they achieve stuff with 0.66% representation.”
    What has he achieved?
    I will repost the question asked by another
    Heather
    “Just tell me one thing Bandt has got through or done other than wasting space”

    “So can the Greens, with a lot more votes.”
    I’m hoping Labor don’t preference them so,

    from 2010 election till the 2013 one they managed to lose 507,813 votes in the Senate and 342,079 votes in the House of Representatives

  359. Athena

    You’d better hope there isn’t a hung parliament. The polls are looking that way at the moment. The LNP will form government since Shorten won’t deal with the Greens. 🙂

  360. Backyard Bob

    Nurses,

    Changing names to protect the “innocent? Is that it? The actual Twitter exchange:

    Mike Hall ‏@mikehallsydney

    The Liberals don’t have a plan to fix our economy. We need to invest in health, education and infrastructure. The Greens will. #qanda

    cornlegend ‏@cornlegend1 May 23

    @mikehallsydney @u_hardy Now, how will the Greens with 0.66% representation in Federal Parliament do that ?

    Mike Hall ‏@mikehallsydney 22h22 hours ago

    @cornlegend1 @u_hardy Because the Greens punch way above their weight – always have done

    cornlegend ‏@cornlegend1 18h18 hours ago

    @mikehallsydney @u_hardy Just tell me one thing Bandt has got through or done, other than wasting space

  361. Athena

    Well she is a Liberal stooge.

    “@mikehallsydney @u_hardy Just tell me one thing Bandt has got through or done, other than wasting space”

    Tell us what the ALP are achieving in the lower house this term with their 50 odd seats and a clear LNP majority.

  362. nurses1968

    No altered name to keep my part time employer out of my arguments
    The questions remain the same
    and as for transparency, to my knowledge Michael Taylor was informed way back of my association with Cornlegend.
    He can respond for himself
    Would you like to answer the question the Greens avoided

  363. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Is that why cornlegend goes quiet sometimes???

  364. nurses1968

    no, he happens to be all over the place with his business and political interests

  365. Keith

    The tiffs go on, do you really think that in the scheme of things that difference between the Greens and Labor is of such great importance?
    I sent this to John Lord’s article earlier with a few more references:

    Should the COALition win it will be 3 years lost as far as the very urgent action necessary on climate change.
    In the event of neither the COALition or Labor gaining a majority; then, no Ministries should be offered to Greens for the long term well being of both Parties. The Coaliion between the Greens and Labor in Tasmanis was a disaster where both the Greens and Labor lost much support in the electorate and from within their own Parties. Better some kind of Agreement of Support.

    In relation to climate change; it is almost a case of kiss your children and grandchildren goodbye as huge amounts of energy is being created in the atmosphere. The degree of energy at present is equivalent to 4 Hiroshima bombs going off every second.

    The concept of equivalence of 4 Hiroshima bombs going off per second did not hit home until a NOAA reference displayed the amount of forcing created by greenhouse gases for 2015, there is an increase of over 1% per year. The amount of forcing for 2015 was found to be 2.974Watts per square metre. The area of Earth is 510 million square kilometres, land mass is 149 million square kilometres. Hence, to obtain the amount of forcing in relation to land mass it is a matter of multiplying 149 million square kilometres by 1,000 to convert to square metres and then multiply the result by 2.974, a huge number of Watts is derived, even greater when taking into account Oceans and Seas…510 million square kilometres.

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/aggi.html

    An eleven year research project conducted at two locations studied the CO2 effect.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150225132103.htm

    The summary from the reference states:

    “Scientists have observed an increase in carbon dioxide’s greenhouse effect at Earth’s surface for the first time. They measured atmospheric carbon dioxide’s increasing capacity to absorb thermal radiation emitted from Earth’s surface over an 11-year period at two locations in North America. They attributed this upward trend to rising carbon dioxide levels from fossil fuel emissions.”
    The origin of CO2 can be observed by the isotopes displayed.

    Since 2012 the increase in CO2 ( and not counting other greenhouse gases) has been over 3ppm per year; for April 2015 the reading for CO2 had been 403.26 and for April 2016 the reading was 407.42, a slightly higher reading has been derived since. El Nino hopefully has cranked up the last readings.

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

    To add to the issue permafrost is thawing; land subsidence has been noted, and creeks of land acting virtually as water have been filmed.
    Anton Vaks et al has studied cave structures in permafrost areas, areas where permafrost has been intermittent, and in areas where cave structures have built where permafrost has not had an impact. The study concluded that permafrost thaws at 1.5C increase in temperature over pre Industrial times. Anton Vaks et al have had their work published in peer reviewed Journals.

    We cannot waste 3 years with a COALition government. To have the Shenhua and Carmichael mines go ahead spells disaster, coal mines generally need closing very quickly.

    In addition:

    Google “Drought and Famine”.

    Thousands died last year from heat stroke, many are dying from the same complication this year. Many Indian farmers have been committing suicide due to the failure of their crops. The lives of millions of South East Asians are depending on the monsoons being favourable, they hadn’t been the last couple years. Chances are the monsoons will improve going into a Neutral or El Nina cycle. Last year the Rio Negro a very large tributary of the Amazon Basin was severely impacted by drought. The drought is highly likely to continue in Southern California, Northern California is now fine apparently etc..

    We can’t afford for the COALition to be elected, the idiot ideological driven section of the Party has control, they do not believe in climate change.

  366. Backyard Bob

    The LNP will form government since Shorten won’t deal with the Greens.

    We all know this isn’t actually true, right? I mean, of course Shorten will do a deal with Greens and Indies to form government. It’s simply dangerous for him to make any such statement in an election campaign. In doing so he risks alienating two particular demographics – centrist labor voters who while still voting Labor might allocate their preferences differently if they think their Party is getting into bed with the Greens.

    More importantly, the few thousand swinging voters, many of the them also centrist or quasi-conservative voters who would never vote for the Greens who might respond negatively to such an announcement and decide to stick with the Coalition.

    Shorten will form a minority government with the Greens if that choice exists. 100% certain.

  367. Backyard Bob

    Nurses,

    Would you like to answer the question the Greens avoided.

    No, I don’t do stupid.

  368. Backyard Bob

    Nurses,

    Would you like to answer the question the Greens avoided.

    No, I don’t do stupid.

  369. Athena

    “The tiffs go on, do you really think that in the scheme of things that difference between the Greens and Labor is of such great importance?”

    Is it a tiff? I thought nurses1968 was simply determined to prove that she’s clueless about how our parliamentary system works.

  370. nurses1968

    Athena, actually I thought you were the clueless one with not much idea with the differences in seanate and house of reps with this
    So in other words, the micros could hold the balance of power. So can the Greens, with a lot more votes.
    “So can the Greens, with a lot more votes. That’s how they achieve stuff with 0.66% representation.

    and sorry I have to go to work will respond when time allows or if I could be bothered

  371. Backyard Bob

    Keith,

    The tiffs go on, do you really think that in the scheme of things that difference between the Greens and Labor is of such great importance?

    Depends what you mean by “difference”. At the political level I don’t think this current “tiff” means that much. It is, after all, politics. I am a little concerned, however, that many Labor people are not seeing it for what it is – politics. Some of them, you know, the writer of this article and her supporters, appear to have decided it ought be fought as some kind of moral and ideological crusade. That approach does seem to be their raison d’être, or maybe it’s just a symptom of political loyalty, which has always eroded the capacity of people to see things objectively.

    The potential problem I see for the Greens is that of them losing that objectivity themselves and being blinded by a combination of political ambition and a perceived opportunity to advance it. That can make one a bit uppity and inflexible and prone to bad judgement calls.

    For me, I generally prefer to step back and leave inter-party dynamics and negotiation and strategies to the parties. I mean, what the hell do I really know about such stuff? That said I absolutely think we should all be as vocal as time and capacity permit in terms of expressing our views on policy and its formation and of how our political representatives are performing in the sense of that very duty.

    I mean, when Shorten says he won’t deal with the Greens to form a minority government, he’s lying, flat out. He’s lying for obvious political reasons. It’s always a shame when that sort of thing is necessary, but the truth is people aren’t especially rational about shit like this and it, very sadly, becomes necessary.

    My tip: Shorten minority government with a couple of Indies and at least one extra Green( HoR – anyone who tips about the Senate has got to be insane! 🙂 )

  372. Athena

    Balance of power has the same effect in both houses. Those who have it have the power to negotiate.

  373. Keith

    Athena, the comments coming with this article display exactly why I do not belong to a political party.
    I have been following climate change for a number of years, the changes over the last few years have been increasingly worrisome.
    Never before have so many people been so vulnerable to the impacts of climate change as in 2016, we are getting a taste of the future at present.

  374. diannaart

    ByB

    I mean, when Shorten says he won’t deal with the Greens to form a minority government, he’s lying, flat out. He’s lying for obvious political reasons. It’s always a shame when that sort of thing is necessary, but the truth is people aren’t especially rational about shit like this and it, very sadly, becomes necessary.

    I think you may well be right…. but would Cornlegend agree? ….thinking about deliberate actions to divide progressives.

  375. Athena

    “I have been following climate change for a number of years, the changes over the last few years have been increasingly worrisome.
    Never before have so many people been so vulnerable to the impacts of climate change as in 2016, we are getting a taste of the future at present.”

    I completely agree with you, Keith. Climate change is a very big factor in why i won’t vote for either of the major parties. The effects of climate change are going to be devastating to our food supply, our economy and to the people on lower incomes.

    There is a common misconception, as displayed by nurses1968, that smaller parties cannot achieve anything, thus many people would never consider voting for them. I think it is very important that people understand that is a myth. Small parties and independents have the ability for achievement in certain circumstances and they do make use of it to get what they want.

    I agree with BYB too about Shorten refusing to work with the Greens. If there’s a hung parliament, anyone with half a brain knows it is going to be closely followed by Shorten’s first proven lie.

  376. Athena

    “I think you may well be right…. but would Cornlegend agree? ….thinking about deliberate actions to divide progressives.”

    Who cares what Cornlegend thinks on the matter? Who in their right (no pun intended) mind is going to throw away a chance at governing the country after spending millions of $ on a campaign when an election ends in a hung parliament? Any party leader giving that up will never work again.

  377. Backyard Bob

    I don’t know about anyone else but I’m really quite confused as to Nurses1968’s actual political position. They say this:

    there are some good micros and with careful distribution of preferences they could get up

    At the same time as posting and apparently agreeing with Cornie about the Greens:

    Now, how will the Greens with 0.66% representation in Federal Parliament do that ?

    It’s all rather mind-boggling. What political limitations that such speakers would impose upon the Greens don’t necessarily, and in truth, moreso apply to any micros and indies? I swear some people have decided to burden the Greens with a different standard and philosophical outlook to everyone else. Ya gotta wonder why.

    The policy statements and ambitions of any minor party in this current system must necessarily be largely aspirational. Does that make them wrong? Does that make them “delusional”? Why would any new party, or even the Greens for that matter, bother formulating policy at all if we’re entitled to just outright dismiss them because they’ll never form government in their own right”?

    Classic born to rule major party vanity, as far as I’m concerned (and that’s coming from someone who thinks single issue parties are a farce and ought be, in fact, dismissed).

    I will be preferencing the Greens in both houses – well, strictly speaking I’ll be doing it in the voting booth, but you know what I mean. For this particular progressive, they have done more than enough work on environmental and social policy fronts to be entirely deserving of that support.

  378. diannaart

    Athena

    I wasn’t questioning Bill’s motives… I was questioning Cornie’s

  379. Athena

    “I don’t know about anyone else but I’m really quite confused as to Nurses1968’s actual political position. ”

    Yes she is all over the place and only posts to have a go at someone here. That’s why I think she is a Liberal troll.

  380. Backyard Bob

    If there’s a hung parliament, anyone with half a brain knows it is going to be closely followed by Shorten’s first proven lie.

    Yes, I suppose it will technically be a lie, but I think a necessary one and so I’ll forgive him for it. I did compose a post explaining the political reasons for his current stance but I didn’t have my VPN running and it got swallowed. Not sure I can repeat it, but the gist is to publicly announce a willingness to “deal” with the Greens to form government risks alienating at least two potentially important demographics. This will be close. Shorten can’t afford to do that.

    As an aside, the word “deal” appears 15 times in Victoria’s article. It’s all about the narrative.

  381. Athena

    “I wasn’t questioning Bill’s motives… I was questioning Cornie’s”

    Fair enough. I just considered him a one eyed ALP supporter. He’s made some really daft statements about the Greens, such as criticising them for wanting to win seats. Why else would anyone run for parliament if they don’t want to win a seat? Isn’t that the whole point of an election?

  382. Athena

    “Not sure I can repeat it, but the gist is to publicly announce a willingness to “deal” with the Greens to form government risks alienating at least two potentially important demographics. This will be close. Shorten can’t afford to do that.”

    He could always respond with a more honest answer, like Di Natale’s answer that ALP supporters love to take out of context. “I won’t say never but…”. It’s treating the electorate as stupid to come out with such a bold faced lie.

  383. Backyard Bob

    It’s treating the electorate as stupid to come out with such a bold faced lie.

    Perhaps Shorten has in mind that this “electorate” voted in an Abbott government with a fairly handsome majority. Stupid is as stupid does.

  384. diannaart

    Treating the electorate as stupid has been rather successful in recent history…

    Honesty can be a death sentence – just ask Julia.

  385. paul walter

    Nearly four hundred comments? Wow!

    I think it is far more complex than some think and as ever rate the blame at about fifty fifty.

  386. Backyard Bob

    Paul,

    It’s really not that surprising. When someone writes an op ed effectively trashing a political group on their own side of politics, the poop is bound to connect to the rotary cooling device. For me the content of the discussion has been quite fascinating, at least in terms of the elucidation of people’s political perspectives.

  387. Athena

    “Perhaps Shorten has in mind that this “electorate” voted in an Abbott government with a fairly handsome majority. Stupid is as stupid does.”

    Yes that did cross my mind when I wrote it. I have no tolerance for lies and I’m tired of politicians lying to us. How does anyone make a choice based on policies when they contain so many lies?

  388. Athena

    “Nearly four hundred comments? Wow!”

    Perhaps that was the purpose of posting the article in the first place. Perhaps there’s a bet running somewhere re: the number of comments one can accumulate, so the object is to inflame.

  389. silkworm

    When Shorten says he won’t deal with the Greens, he is also saying he won’t deal with the Left within his own party.

  390. silkworm

    “… the gist is to publicly announce a willingness to “deal” with the Greens to form government risks alienating at least two potentially important demographics.” ByB, I’d be interested in hearing what you think these two demographics are. One I can think of, which you may not have thought of, is a Catholic DLP-type faction within the ALP, who hold an anti-Green position because of their secular views.

  391. Athena

    Silkworm, BYB did post after that but the post seems to have disappeared. Here are the groups he considered may be alienated.

    “In doing so he risks alienating two particular demographics – centrist labor voters who while still voting Labor might allocate their preferences differently if they think their Party is getting into bed with the Greens.

    More importantly, the few thousand swinging voters, many of the them also centrist or quasi-conservative voters who would never vote for the Greens who might respond negatively to such an announcement and decide to stick with the Coalition.”

  392. corvus boreus

    Overall Green representation in parliament is 4.95% (11/222 overall positions).
    If referring only to the Greens influence in the HOR (1/150 or 0.65%) then you can also similarly discount the potential influence of any other minor parties or independents, who are highly unlikely to gain more than 1 seat each.
    If consideration includes Senate influence, which is the only house where the likes of the Pirates and Sex partyers* have any chance at all of achieving any seats, then the statistic quoted by ‘Heather’ is entirely irrelevant.
    *I do not include Socialist Alliance because, with less than 0.1% electoral support, they are less than unlikely to play any role at all in the next federal parliament.

  393. Kaye Lee

    Could I also point out that in the NO CARBON TAX election, with a 3.1% swing away from the Greens, they garnered 8.6% of the primary vote which, if we had proportional representation rather than single member electorates, would have given them 13 seats in the HoR. Their support base is very large but dispersed, unlike the Nats who get far more seats than their primary vote deserves.

    Also in the 2013 election, Labor got more votes than any other single party. The Coalition mixes together 4 different parties. Even amalgamating all of those parties, the Coalition, at the 2013 election, got 45.5% of the vote which would, under proportional representation, equate to 68 seats, well short of the 76 they need to form government.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/results/party-totals/

  394. Jennifer G

    Frustrating, isn’t it?
    Because of where I live and various political things I have done, I receive all the Greens’ guff about how wonderful they are.
    Adam Bandt: We will win 3 seats
    Me: Whoop dedoo, only another 73 to get a majority.

  395. Jennifer G

    Politics is about compromise, often accepting good enough or better rather than perfect. The Greens have proven that they prefer 100% of zero, rather than 60-70% of something (CPRS, etc)
    Politics is also about gaining power and the Greens cannot when they don’t fuss about winning seats from Libs or Nats or interacting productively with anyone 10+ k from the CBD.
    I see Green supporters complaining about single rep electorates. The Senate represents the states — OK? Do you really want the whole parliamentary system changed for you?
    The Greens should read up on the old DLP. The resemblance is striking

  396. Backyard Bob

    silkworm,

    “… the gist is to publicly announce a willingness to “deal” with the Greens to form government risks alienating at least two potentially important demographics.” ByB, I’d be interested in hearing what you think these two demographics are. One I can think of, which you may not have thought of, is a Catholic DLP-type faction within the ALP, who hold an anti-Green position because of their secular views.

    Actually, that’s exactly one of the demographics I was thinking of, although expressed in different terms. Athena posted some of my post that I thought had disappeared. Anyway, yes, there’s a meaningful demographic within Labor ranks – not just DLP types, but also hardcore union types – who cannot be described as “progressives”, who generally vote Labor, but who are highly suspicious of, or who outright dislike the Greens. I drink with those types all the time. They frankly scare me just a little bit because their political ignorance is nothing short of breathtaking. They are the Murdoch Press educated Labor voters.

    I’m in Queensland; such types are more common than you might wish to imagine possible (assuming you’re not from Qld and know that already)..

    The other, more important demographic is that of which we’ve spoken many times – the so-called 30,000. The number of voters it seems are capable of turning and determining an election result. They are not leftists, they are not progressives, per se. They are, for the most part (and I’m trying not to falsely generalise here) centrist or quasi-conservative voters who will swing between Labor and Coalition but who would never vote Green.

    They are highly significant. Labor cannot risk alienating this demographic. They simply can’t, even if it means telling a fib about their intentions should a “hung” parliament occur.

    Truth and honesty in politics is an enormously slippery and complex thing. I sometimes think we’re foolishly strident and inflexible about it and that reveals our ignorance of how politics actually works. The problems we face today with respect to “truth” in politics were evident for the Ancient Greeks.

  397. corvus boreus

    JenniferG,
    The only person who even mentioned the problems that exist with single member electorates was Kaye Lee.
    People who see virtue in a system of true proportional representation are by no means restricted to ‘Greens supporters’.

    Ps, personally, I would also like to see per-state senate allocations altered to better reflect comparative population sizes (eg, a Tasmanian casting their senate ballot currently has 14 times the power of a NSW voter).

  398. Jennifer G

    Jexpat, re Prahran:
    It is not a Liberal seat, it has always been a tight contest, and this time the Greens won it. Well done.
    BTW, what is the name of the chap who won it and what impact have he and the other Green had on Victorian politics?

  399. kathysutherland2013

    @ corvus boreus – I wish I could use my senate vote x 14 to get rid of Eric Abetz!

  400. Kaye Lee

    Jennifer G,

    “Whoop dedoo, only another 73 to get a majority.”

    Balance of power mean anything to you?

    “Politics is about compromise, often accepting good enough or better rather than perfect. The Greens have proven that they prefer 100% of zero, rather than 60-70% of something ”

    Labor pilloried them for accepting the compromise to make private companies earning over $200 million instead of $100 million to have to disclose their tax affairs. I assume the thinking was we at least get something into place.

    “Politics is also about gaining power ”

    And governing is about the best interests of the people.

    “they don’t fuss about winning seats from Libs or Nats or interacting productively with anyone 10+ k from the CBD.”

    The Greens won Ballina from the Nats and went damn close to taking Lismore in the NSW election. Last time I was up that way there wasn’t a CBD in sight.

    “I see Green supporters complaining about single rep electorates.”

    I am the one who spoke about proportional representation and I do not classify myself as an anything but a truth supporter. I do not like political parties.

    “The Senate represents the states ”

    Thanks for that info. And the 500,000 people who live in Tasmania have 12 representatives just the same as the 7.5 million who live3 in NSW.

    “Do you really want the whole parliamentary system changed for you?”

    No. I want it changed for the sake of the country.

    And if you think the Greens are anything like the DLP then you know nothing about either party – or you think factional politics is more important than policy.

  401. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Well said, Kaye Lee.

    Jennifer G, you’re missing the point of Representational Government. The Greens have Bandt and they may well take Feeney’s seat. 1 or 2, there presence counts especially when passing policy in close parliaments.

    Your strident support of the dinosaur duopoly is depressing.

  402. Athena

    “Politics is about compromise, often accepting good enough or better rather than perfect. The Greens have proven that they prefer 100% of zero, rather than 60-70% of something (CPRS, etc)”

    Jennifer G, I believe it was the Greens who negotiated with the LNP on the issue of aged pension reform, securing an increase in pensions for the poorest of aged pensioners. The ALP opted for 100% of zero.

  403. Backyard Bob

    Politics is a bit like this:

    A couple have 12 kids, each of whom having different temperaments and aspirations, They want the best for each of their children but can’t possibly deliver that in the same way they delivered said children.

    They have to pacify those kids in an attempt to not make them feel like one or the other is being favorited. They promise this and that, every promise well intentioned, but every promise aspirational, as it must be because they can’t possibly deliver what every kid wants.

    They have to fib to some of the kids some of the time or risk their kids hating them.

    This is not a “rough” analogy or metaphor. This is exactly how politics works. Possibly how it must work in a pluralistic society.

    That’s what you want, right? A “pluralistic” society? Ok, suck it up.

  404. Len sherrott

    What is really crazy is how a “respected? ” journalist can run with half facts and energize so many people. But it’s obvious that our democracy is in a healthy state. May it never change.

  405. cornlegend

    Geez, Ill try to respond
    Nurses feel free to say and do as you see fit ,
    Backyard Bob “, of course Shorten will do a deal with Greens” he said NO, will find out if he had a change of heart early next week

    Diannaart “I wasn’t questioning Bill’s motives… I was questioning Cornie’s”
    the motives are the same

    BYB “this “electorate” voted in an Abbott government with a fairly handsome majority. Stupid is as stupid does.”
    and they are the ones we are targeting with the Senate HTV

    silkworm “When Shorten says he won’t deal with the Greens, he is also saying he won’t deal with the Left within his own party. ”
    RUBBISH it was some from the Left that pushed this issue
    Show me a link as to how you came to that conclusion

    corvus boreus “Overall Green representation in parliament is 4.95% (11/222 overall positions).”

    for someone with an interest in Senate, you are using smoke and mirrors there .
    You know full well the difference between both the House of Reps and Senate
    Greens representation in the HOR is 0.67
    The House is the only place Legislation and Bills came be passed
    The Senate is a States representative “House of Review”, to review Bills, not make them

    I think it was BYB,
    The Micros can’t win seats
    No but they have a whole swath of preferences in the Senate to distribute Micros and Independents in the last election attracted 3.1 million votes
    They are quite willing to use those votes following the Sydney/Melbourne meetings as a “get square”and they are willing to campaign in seats where LAbor could come under attack, and why not capitalise on that ?
    I will continue to campaign for Labor in any seat I can, the HTV I posted is not an official LAbor HTV but distribution is being done by some Micro supporters.
    On the HTV, it has gone down a treat in Sydney but there will be some refinements.
    The new batches will be printed on beer coasters.
    Distribution will be concentrating on morning/evening commuters in metro areas trains, buses ferries etc .and pubs and clubs night time and will stay in metro areas,
    Last 2 weeks, once tickets have been finalise and printed {coaster type} there will also be distribution in Feeneys seat, metro Melbourne and Brisbane {for the last 2 weeks of campaigning} by a new bunch of volunteers and I will have a trip to Melbourne to help out {and Crown}
    Thats the update, must dash need to go to the printers

    Oh, Kaye Lee I wouldn’t mind seeing optional preferential voting, and can’t see why even the LNP or Greens would object as the new Senate voting is a form of optional preferential
    I can’t see why anyone should be forced to vote for anyone other than their choice.
    I would never vote LNP but to have a formal vote I need to number them.I would rather have the option to leave them, and others out and still have a formal HOR vote
    I will respond if necessary next week

  406. Athena

    “I would never vote LNP but to have a formal vote I need to number them.I would rather have the option to leave them, and others out and still have a formal HOR vote”

    Cornlegend, I too would like optional preferential voting. It sucks that Christopher Pyne is going to derive some benefit from everyone’s votes in Sturt. I see preferential voting as part of the reason why the major parties are not responding to the protest vote.

  407. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I support Corvus’ depiction of Greens’ vote as 11/222. That is Proportional Voting. I would support this new parliamentary reform with an Optional Preferencing blend.

  408. diannaart

    Diannaart “I wasn’t questioning Bill’s motives… I was questioning Cornie’s”
    the motives are the same

    If you are in the public spotlight, your response would make sense – do you have such public influence?

  409. Gangey1959

    I know that I have to vote for the lnp, but if I fill in all the numbers, and give them the last 2, aren’t I effectively NOT voting for them?
    I just hope that the people who decide to vote below the line and stop at 12 or more but don’t go all the way are not wasting their votes.
    @ Cornlegend. Can you send your HTV card to me. MT has my email, or you can post it on here.
    I’m NOT voting for sukkar, if for nothing else but because he is against marriage equality on the basis of his own religious beliefs. Australia’s government is Secular. It says so in the Constitution. Screw him and his religious holier than the rest of us god exists cos he’s in an old book and evolution didn’t happen because it’s not dickhead mates.

  410. jimhaz

    I wonder how things would go if senators were not allowed to be a *current* member of a party or perhaps something more practical a low maximum per party was set (say 20).

    “As was foreseen by some of the framers, soon after federation parliamentarians began to vote as members of political parties rather than as representatives of states. While this has obscured the role of the Senate as a protector of the less populous states, the state-based system of representation has ensured that legislative decisions are not made only by the representatives of the more populous states. The Senate has also assumed greater importance as a check on the power of the government of the day”

    A major party majority in both houses means there is no check. I’d rather pollies spend their time convincing senators of X policies, rather than them spending all their time dealing with business and media as they do now. it could force real debates to occur.

  411. silkworm

    Cornie, you support Feeney? You know he’s from the hard Catholic right of the ALP, don’t you, and that he is tight with LawJack, who are tight with Tony Abbott?

  412. corvus boreus

    cornlegend,
    You should be explaining the difference to your tenant, not me.

  413. Al

    “I can’t imagine how privileged your life would have to be, sitting in an inner-city Café, drinking a luke-warm Latte, to not have a care in the world except maintaining your comfortable spot on your high horse” – WTF is this comment. I am a Greens member who does not live in the inner city, doesn’t frequent cafes (I generally find them too congested) and i don’t drink f*cken lattes.

  414. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Yes, cornlegend or nurses1968 or whoever you may be,

    stop pigeonholing Greens voters.

    We are widespread, diverse socio-economic people, who have diverse life experiences but the preparedness to do politics differently from what the duopoly dinosaurs have been doing it for 3-4 decades.

    It’s Time to abolish the neoliberalist economic system that has withdrawn oxygen from every innovative enterprise for decades.

  415. Keith

    The attached film clip explains how the economy is the least of our worry. A few years ago I saw a clip of Jeremy Jackson (Oceanographer) providing a session for high ranking Naval Officers. It was quite subdued in comparison to the talk referenced below. He had raised some of the matters discussed in the more recent session; except, now there is much more evidence.

    The COALition are a real danger in relation to anybody who has at least 20 years plus of life expectancy; we do not have 3 years to waste.
    Currently, 2C is a certainty before 2 decades have elapsed unless there are huge reductions in CO2 emissions and other greenhouse gases. Clearly, countries such as the USA and China need to push hard as well. As Jeremy Jackson says astronomical costs will be accrued through sea level rise with millions of people displaced. A recent paper confirms the instability of East Antarctica. There are many references in relation to Miami and other South Eastern US coastal cities and towns being impacted when king tides occur, without rainfall or high winds pushing sea water onto Streets.

  416. Miriam English

    Thanks for the link, Keith. Amazing talk.

  417. Miriam English

    Hmmm… Vikingduk’s post has disappeared…

  418. Miriam English

    I was going to thank Vikingduk for the link to NASA’s climate change mailing list. I’ve now signed up.

    I already receive emails from NASA:
    JPL News – Day in Review – general cool stuff NASA is working on (every few days)
    – Earth Observatory – looks back at Earth (weekly)
    – Natural Hazards – also looks back at Earth, but concentrates on threats. (roughly weekly)

    There are a lot of great mailing lists from NASA, but they don’t seem to have any one place where a list of them is collected, making it easy to miss important ones… like the climate change newsletter.

  419. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Thanks Miriam. I signed up.

  420. Miriam English

    Crap. I’m such an idiot. Vikingduk commented to the recent “Let’s talk about climate change” post here on AIMN.

  421. cornlegend

    Jennifer Meyer-SmithMay 26, 2016 at 8:13 pm

    “Yes, cornlegend or nurses1968 or whoever you may be,”
    Whats this shit ?
    I thought you were better than that,
    Usually that sort of rubbish is then followed by troll accusations or whatever when commenters get desperate .
    Just for your sake, I met Nurses years ago when I had surgery {and was openly discussed on numerous other sites {Truthseekers Musings, IA, here I think etc way back then}
    She was a tower of strength to me my wife and family when my sister in law had a double mastectomy and provided ongoing after care {also on some sites}
    I have tried to convert her to the ALP but respect her choices and it makes bugger all difference in regard to the friendship with my wife self and extended family
    She is employed casually by my wife, part time , and we wish it was full time {working on that}
    Michael Taylor has been made fully aware months ago that both Nurses and {Dr} Fran Whitfield log on with my ISP. Fran when in Australia, currently in Cuba, as she has a granny flat on our property , Nurse if she is working .
    HAPPY?

  422. Backyard Bob

    Miriam,

    I already receive emails from NASA:

    You don’t get Spot the Station notifications? It’s a bunch of fun, despite it all being faked CGI an’ stuff 😉

    https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/

  423. Miriam English

    I hadn’t heard of that. Thanks Bob, I’ve now signed up. Cool. 🙂

    If you like space try installing Celestia. It is a free, open-source program that lets you visit the space station, the Moon, Mars, any of the solar system’s bodies. All planets and moons orbit in real time and are where they are in reality. Celestia even lets you go to other stars (though the simulation is more guesswork the further away you venture, of course). There is quite a community of people uploading and sharing free models and textures that you can add to Celestia to enhance it.

  424. Keith

    While the ABC might be seen as partisan to the COALition, some reports still get through.
    Clive Palmer’s comments have been basically corroborated by Michael Yabsley in relation to the dark world of Liberal Party donations.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-26/clive-palmer-turns-liberal-wrecking-ball/7449858

    A section of the US currently being pummelled by rain bombs:

    https://www.wunderground.com/news/flash-flooding-texas-severe-weather-forecast-plains-may27

    Texas and Oklahoma have been impacted by drought and rain bombs over the last years.

  425. Backyard Bob

    Miriam,

    If you like space try installing Celestia.

    I have it, but I find Stellarium shits all over it, so to speak. Matter of taste I suppose (it could also be that I haven’t fully explored Celestia’s features). I find Stellarium much more user-friendly.

    http://www.stellarium.org/

  426. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    cornlegend,

    only you know the real identity. I usually fall over myself backwards to apologise when I think I have made an offensive remark or wrong accusation.

    However, let the matter rest, as I would not want to add any ill-feeling, because despite what this article originally attempted to argue, the Greens and Labor have much, much more in common than what differs between us all.

    You might want to tell your ‘friend’ nurses1968 that too.

    For the record, I respect your contributions 75% of the time, except when you put the boot into the Greens.

  427. helvityni

    Jennifer, this Labor/Green imbroglio upsets me, we ought to be there to fight together the real enemy, the Coalition.

    Life-long Labor voting hubby turned Green when Labor’s asylum seeker policies turned as harsh as the Coalition’s. I’m not happy about that either, but I’m more pragmatic and still see the Labor as the better one of the two major parties.

  428. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    You’re right Helvi and so is your husband.

  429. Michael Taylor

    You don’t know how much I appreciate hearing about those apps.

    I was very lucky to be given an astronomical telescope for my birthday. To calibrate it I need to align three known stars with the time and my exact location. I only know a few stars but they’re never out at the same time, and the apps I’ve downloaded are useless.

    I’ll be trying out those apps when I get home.

  430. cornlegend

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith
    Nurse 1968 can form her own opinions thank you, without any interference from me.
    I think I have made my views on the Greens perfectly clear and have seen nothing to change them, moreso reinforce them
    As for your Alliance, it ain’t gonna happen but you keep knocking yourself out as it obviously keeps you occupied.
    You did see the multi party Senate ticket for NSW, hows that for an Alliance or not Green enough?
    I’ll pop the Victorian and QLD ones up once sorted and printed

  431. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    cornlegend,

    I never said the Alliance would happen overnight but we can be preparing for it right now and it will happen sooner rather than later.

    Your Senate ticket material, as it will be presented on 2 July, does NOT change a thing.

  432. cornlegend

    “Your Senate ticket material, as it will be presented on 2 July, does NOT change a thing.

    why wouldn’t it?

  433. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    coz it doesn’t represent the True Alliance of the Greens, Labor, Progressive Micro Parties and sane Independents.

    Don’t play games coz it won’t work.

  434. cornlegend

    “coz it doesn’t represent the True Alliance”
    yoo hoo, there is no such thing, it is a figment of your imagination
    I thought you would have figured that out from the responses of politicians and Parties to you
    What games?
    I’m have tried in vain over month to let you down gently
    Any proof otherwise from pollies

  435. Miriam English

    Bob, Stellarium is a great planetarium program, but Celestia is far, far more. Celestia lets you wander at will all around space in 3D. I’ve had fun riding along with the International Space Station watching the sun come up over Eurasia. I’ve floated alongside the Hubble Space Telescope. I’ve stood on the Moon where the various moon landings were. I’ve followed comets as they plunge toward the Sun. I’ve zoomed out from our entire galaxy. It is a very cool program.

    Michael, for your telescope, if you have a smartphone with GPS, try GoogleSky (it is free). If you hold your smartphone above you it will display the stars and planets wherever you are pointing it. It is the most amazing app I’ve seen. Many times I’ve been able to identify for friends and family that the bright light in the sky is Jupiter or Venus. I’ve also used it to see what stars and/or planets are soon to rise, as it shows the sky “beneath” your feet too. Brilliant program.

  436. Keith

    A New Scientist article does not provide good news in relation to climate change. You need to register to gain free access to article .

    Quote of first paragraph:

    “WE MAY be in for more global warming than we hoped, New Scientist can reveal.

    Over the past few years, a number of studies have concluded that a given level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere produces less warming than previously thought. This rare good news on climate made headlines around the world.

    But these studies were carried out towards the end of a period of little warming. Do the results still stand given the record warming in 2014, 2015 and 2016? To find out, New Scientist asked those behind the studies what would happen if the latest global temperature data was plugged into their models.”

    Reference:

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23030754-400-exclusive-effect-of-co-on-warming-is-worse-than-we-thought/?utm_source=NSNS

  437. Miriam English

    🙁 That’s a bit of a worry.
    The only positive aspect is that the climate change deniers won’t be able to deny global warming for much longer.

    Of course, the human ability to deny reality is almost unlimited (just talk to any alcoholic, or any devoutly religious person) so no doubt the climate change deniers will merely switch to saying that the climate change is natural, and not human-induced. They will steadfastly maintain that having our foot firmly pressed on the accelerator pedal has no effect on how we’re rushing toward the cliff edge. They will refuse to consider that, even if it is natural (which plenty of evidence indicates it isn’t), accelerating toward the edge is not helping.

  438. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Thanks Keith @ 8.14pm on 26 May. I watched what you posted for us too.

    If the human race listens to him, we can significantly decelerate environmental and ecological damage.

  439. corvus boreus

    We seem to be entering a phase of abruptly accelerating destabilization, as indicated by events like polar and permafrost melts.
    This is the territory where feedback loops start to kick in and escalatively self perpetuate the problem, where symptomatic manifestations trigger further degenerative processes. Things like loss of ice-sheet albedo and the eruptive release of thawing methyl hydrates increase the momentum of climatic changes, disempowering our potential ability to remediate the situation.

    Meanwhile, here in oz, we continue to locally contribute to the overall problem, with things like legislatively re-invigorated land clearance in our more densely and diversely vegetated areas, and our expanding extraction of fossil fuels for combustion.
    We are engineering our own methanous eruptions through the fracking of our sub-strata, and our forests, increasingly fragmented and biologically depleted, are starting to die-off of their own accord. Whilst the northern coral reefs bleach, the southern end is actively sludged and dredged.

    Media-fed public disbelief is merely a primary buffer before the barrier of general ignorance and incomprehension of the overall scope and scale of the serious biospheric problems that we are, by our collective actions, investing in.

    Ps, Regarding the human power to deny or defy inconvenient evidence warning against destructive acts of self-gratification, a large percentage of my colleagues in applied ecology continue to smoke cigarettes despite the clear messages on the packaging.

  440. Miriam English

    I’m amazed that insurance companies are not our greatest allies against climate trends. They should be, if the people who ran them had any kind of sense, but here they are, milking the system, making short-term money by overclaiming from the government (in USA) and doing nothing about the root of the problem.

    Here in Australia the insurance industry has always had a bad name for not paying out on their part of the bargain, and there seems to be an increase in such incidents reported. Whether they’re actually cheating their customers more often, or whether our more connected society simply lets us hear about it more frequently, it’s difficult to say, but it is very strange that the insurance companies are so quiet about environmental changes that could ruin them and so badly damage all of society.

    I guess they figure that if there are major, bankrupting claims they’ll be able to get away with defaulting the way the banks did in the global financial crisis, and call for bailouts the way the banks did. There’s apparently no long-term thought to what they would do afterward, or even about social justice. It seems now is everything to them. How very weird.

  441. Backyard Bob

    Of course, the human ability to deny reality is almost unlimited (just talk to any alcoholic, or any devoutly religious person)

    Or go to Youtube and search for “flat earth”. Mind you, they too are mostly devoutly religious folk who’ve given up trying to win the battle against evolution.

  442. diannaart

    Proving climate change is now redundant, along with most of CSIRO’s climate scientists, according to Abbott apointee, Larry Marshal:

    Our climate models … [proved] global climate change. That question has been answered, and the new question is what do we do about it and how can we find solutions for the climate we will be living with?

    Riiiight, Larry, coz we don’t need to monitor climate when designing solutions to it, now do we?

    Also, monitoring climate isn’t just for those boffins at CSIRO:

    Australian farmers and the fishing industry, the Royal Australian Navy, anyone who lives on the coast and worries about erosion or sea level rise, this is a kick in the guts to them because there are so many stakeholders and users of this CSIRO capability who not only need it now but are going to need it more in the next 30 years.

    http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/feb/08/csiro-climate-cuts-would-be-attacking-a-national-treasure-when-we-need-it-most

    So, people, for f*ck’s sake, stop the bickering, get over yourselves, we have to face a far greater threat than who gave preference to whom.

    Just grow UP!

    Get together and fight!

  443. Keith

    Jennifer
    Thanks for your reference, the strong message is that deniers of climate change are delusional; and others less so, depending on the efforts they put into trying to use as little energy as possible.

  444. Bret Fishley

    What a dreadful article. What a misrepresentation of the situation to suggest that the only issue on the minds of Greens who advocate not preferencing the ALP is asylum seekers. Lets not worry about the deals the ALP has made with CSG companies, or their lack of any significant commitment to addressing global warming, or the fact that they are in lock step with the LNP when it comes to policies that affect First Nations people, or the fact that the ALP are very nearly as neoliberal as the LNP evidenced by the fact that they have refused to up Centrelinks payments, have done bugger all to address tax regimes that favour the top 1% etc etc. Stepping back from the ALP is absolutely essential if the Greens are to be able to claim any ethical legitimacy. Saying to the electorate that they do not endorse the neoliberal environment wrecking policies of either party by not endorsing either side with electoral handouts sends a very clear message that the Greens is a very different political animal to the ALP and LNP. The person who wrote this article is very clearly a huge ALP supported and as such is the one betraying the environment and social justice values. What a hypocrite.

  445. Miriam English

    Bret, thank you for reminding me of this terrible article and its astonishing, lengthy response. I remember so many of us warning that this kind of bitching by the devoted Labor faithful against the Greens would go a long way to sabotaging any chance of progressive forces beating the LNP Coalition. I remember our fear of the damage the awful LNP could do in office for another term. Of course, we didn’t see how much of that damage would be wrought upon themselves, but our society nevertheless was a casualty not only from their determination to wreck what they could, but also from neglect in their inability to govern.

    Labor’s fanaticism against allowing other progressives a place alongside them must take some of the blame, but also the drift right-ward of Labor’s policies, so that they no longer reflect the values of their base, helped guarantee another term of awful LNP “rule” (if being paralysed by squabbling can be called “rule”).

    Can all the progressives work together this time? Can they good-naturedly duke it out in contested seats as friends and allies? Or will there again be a repeat of this poisonous fight that punishes us all with another term of the LNP ripping up our social fabric?

    The repellent lizards in the LNP can cooperate to keep power with a ridiculously small part of the vote each. Surely the progressives can join forces to boot them out this time. It doesn’t take much — Labor should just ask their followers to preference Greens, Reason Party, or whatever other progressive is competing, and to put the LNP last, and other progressive parties should ask their followers to give Labor first preference after their own party. It’s not difficult. Even better would be a formal alliance, which would guarantee office.

    If the progressives ride into power this time, the very first thing that must be done is to break up Rupert Murdoch’s scary hold on the media. He is even more dangerous to Australian democracy than the insidious IPA, his creepy father’s creation.

  446. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear Bret and Miriam.

    My contribution for today as follows:

    Day 223
    💩#SnottyPM_EsquireFromTheShire

    GREENS/LABOR/PROGRESSIVES #TheALLiance #AusVotes2018

    VOW DOUBLE NEW$TART @billshortenmp @AustralianLabor
    SAME FOR YOUTH/SOLEParent/DSP
    LET $500/FN pd income:N$/YA
    #NOMutualOb
    #NOIndueCard
    #UBI #JG
    @LindaBurneyMP/@ClareONeilMP 👍Ethics

    PROMOTE LABOR VISIONARIES
    NOT LABOR NEOLIBS

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