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The flaw in the glass

There is a weakness in the Armour, a flaw in the glass of the politically educated upper middle-class in these times … I have witnessed it when I prod and tease some posters who come to the site “trying it on” with their presumption of “authority of opinion” which they mistakenly presume is backed by an accepted “nod of approval” toward their academic qualifications as being enough to “get them over the line”, to give them a pedestal position equal to their own self-esteem rating … and are quite surprised and even offended when they get mocked or confronted and challenged on their posts … where approbation was expected, they get confrontation .

Even in the new recognised blogs of social media, where so many who hold the presumption of THEY having the “correct” opinion, of THEY holding the shining light to guide the new direction for the working producers of society, they become crushed when they learn it is not all about THEM and their bourgeois values at all! … and their high opinions of themselves as a front and a font of social correctness turns out to be nought but a reflection of the shallow pool of self adoration!

I would call this “confrontational anxiety”: The shock of the new … the surprise of the sudden mocking or outrage against what we held to be a long thought-out, carefully constructed argument for or against a subject dear to our hearts, by sometimes gross innuendo and vulgar comparison and/or language that has sent shockwaves through more than just a few bloggers on social media sites, we can see it creeping into and from the audiences of Q&A shows, where the orderly manner of the format degenerates into a slanging-match almost replete with the cry of; ”Fight! Fight! Fight!” coming from the audience … This is the new media arising …

It is a new age of, possibly, true democracy … peoples’ democracy, proletarian democracy, where the unlearned and politically naïve along with the rat-cunning compete with decibel space for the ears of the politicians … drowning out the Machiavellian whispers from the main-stream media and lobby groups, exposing to the glaring spot-light of the mobile camera the secret meetings and assignations of those incumbents to a twitter-feed ravenous for victims and outrage! … No more brown-paper bags of dosh passed under tables at the local café, no more oversees trips without cost or confession … no more helicopter flights for the pancake face-pack privileged … and no more secret “kissy-kissy” assignations!

We, The people, have arrived!

Our clothes are crumpled, our complextions varied, our hair awry, our pockets empty, our manners uncultured and our disposition very, very angry … and we are coming for YOU, Mr/Ms Political Dismissive. And we are coming to get what is rightfully ours and if that means walking over a few egos and trampling on many eggshell vanities, so be it … this is a class-war and we are fighting fit for it!

There is a cry in the streets for majority representation and it is with social media that it will be delivered … the voice of the internet has grown exponentially in these last several years despite this gormless LNP govt’ doing its best to blunt the edge or slow it down … There is now a gathering speed of technology outside the controlling arm of censorship that, like the age of steam against the age of petroleum, the ingenuity of humanity, unrestricted now and certainly into the future of non-gender delineation, will see an explosion of delivery systems of internet width, distance and speed beyond the limited imagination of capitalist financiers and corporate controllers.

The future government will have to step into a new set of boots to both finance and deliver those up-dated delivery systems to have any sort of say as to how they are regulated and censored. If at all. The major religions will have to step aside for a new, growing belief in a more Earthly power of instant awareness and concern for cruelty or misdemeanour anywhere in the world and any given time … after all with the growing capacity of “smart-phones”, every public act of delinquency will be recorded on at least a dozen phones and instantly transmitted to the eyes of the world.

Get ready, my little chickadees, there is a tsunami of social-media technology coming where information both good and bad, accurate or shit, will be at our fingertips and any debatable point that you have developed, harboured and stewed over on long sleepless nights, to be delivered with accurate, concise language to blog and Facebook page could be instantly pulled apart, confronted and debased in the most vulgar fashion for sometimes just the fun of it from some arrogant bastard who has no effing idea from deep in the jungle of inner Congo or outer suburbia … and their opening line just might be: WTF!

This poem by Henry Lawson could reflect the confrontational aggressiveness rising from the working poor and the under-educated in regions and suburbia … A poem that speaks for one and many, that now, with the rise of social media platforms, have a voice and heart and policy ideals to be heard and be heard they shall! And neither media mogul nor lack of manners will hold that tsunami back … Prepare yourselves!

The Uncultured Rhymer To His Cultured Critics

Fight through ignorance, want, and care —
Through the griefs that crush the spirit;
Push your way to a fortune fair,
And the smiles of the world you’ll merit.
Long, as a boy, for the chance to learn —
For the chance that Fate denies you;
Win degrees where the Life-lights burn,
And scores will teach and advise you.

My cultured friends! you have come too late
With your bypath nicely graded;
I’ve fought thus far on my track of Fate,
And I’ll follow the rest unaided.
Must I be stopped by a college gate
On the track of Life encroaching?
Be dumb to Love, and be dumb to Hate,
For the lack of a college coaching?

You grope for Truth in a language dead —
In the dust ’neath tower and steeple!
What know you of the tracks we tread?
And what know you of our people?
‘I must read this, and that, and the rest,’
And write as the cult expects me? —
I’ll read the book that may please me best,
And write as my heart directs me!

You were quick to pick on a faulty line
That I strove to put my soul in:
Your eyes were keen for a ‘dash’ of mine
In the place of a semi-colon —
And blind to the rest. And is it for such
As you I must brook restriction?
‘I was taught too little?’ I learnt too much
To care for a pedant’s diction!

Must I turn aside from my destined way
For a task your Joss would find me?
I come with strength of the living day,
And with half the world behind me;
I leave you alone in your cultured halls
To drivel and croak and cavil:
Till your voice goes further than college walls,
Keep out of the tracks we travel!

(Henry Lawson).

Yes! … We come with the strength of the living day …
And on your doorsteps will you soon find me!


114 comments

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  1. Josephus

    Populism of the right and left easily merge, viz the double origin of the Nazi Party. Fascism is not a palatable alternative to plutocracy. Which social class brought about the social democracies of the Nordic states (not so viable in Sweden right now …) ?

  2. Joseph Carli

    I was going to hang off for a while longer before I posted any more pieces…at one point I thought : “NEVER”…but by jingo!..after reading all the slurping and lapping like a pack of Lazerus’s dogs, I thought I better stick my oar in a tad or we’d be reduced to the level of exchanging sauce and syrup recipes!…it’s getting that tacky and sticky!

  3. Miriam English

    Joe, one thing you and Trump have in common: you both harbor a deep resentment of educated people.

  4. Joseph Carli

    “. . . viz the double origin of the Nazi Party.”….rubbish!…this notion that gets boosted by the right-wing bozos that National Socialism, because of the second word in the name means that it is a left-wing party is the stupidist piece of rubbish that has hit social media for some time….and I am surprised…..no I’m not!…that YOU would further proimote such here…and who cares if the Nordic states are social democracies…their policies still are directed to most benefit..and rightly so..the producing class….and, BTW…I don’t necessarily agree that those states are governed in what could be the best manner..they could be more communist for my taste!

  5. New England Cocky

    Uhm Joseph ….. I think there may be a back story here that you may have overlooked.

    This poem is generally regarded as Lawson from his slum hitting out at Banjo Paterson in his mansion.

    Paterson was a family member of the establishment which advantaged publication of his poetry

    Lawson was an alcoholic “worker” who did life tough, as seen in the above lines.

    Certainly the thrust of your article is a call to man the barricades, but really, can you expect Australians to give up a weekend of sun, surf and sex to participate in the removal of an inept, corrupt, unthinking misgovernment of self-serving megalomaniacs?

    Naw!! Pass me another beer from the Esky, mate.

  6. Joseph Carli

    Rubbish, Miriam…I have said time and time again that I believe that those working class people who are the first of their families (like Sally McManus) to attend a tertiary education institution would be the best to govern.

    I just revile those ponces who come from a private schooled backgound and then pontificate what would be the best for the rest!

  7. Joseph Carli

    NEC …Forget the “back story” , forget the waffling bulldust and one line witticisms that don’t really work…I..am using the poem for MY needs..and those “needs” are reflected in the article..

  8. Joseph Carli

    I don’t have a problem with any of you individuals who bask in some fatuous glory of being a member of the middle class…that is no concern to me except when you come after ME…What I am complaining about is the Middle-class as a managerial governing body…..I am saying that the Middle-Class …IS…the problem and has been the problem from the time of Augustus to now.

  9. Paul Davis

    NEC
    Ian Mudie’s 1940 poem “Corroboree to the sun” remains my favourite ‘call to man the barricades’. I love the reference to “befuddled mediocrity”.

  10. Joseph Carli

    My dear Miriam…How much time and words do you spend on these pages and in your own little homilies (“on being happy”) giving sage advice to ignore those who would put one labeled in a box?..and yet just there above, you connect me to Donald Trump..: ” Joe, one thing you and Trump have in common. . . “….you could have said ; John Setka..but no..you stitched me to Trump because that is the type what you want others to connect me to…

  11. Joseph Carli

    And , no…I am just as critical of the working class when they go all stupid on me…

    Bring me no roses.

    Bring me no roses, on this sad day.

    No fancy words, no bright eulogy, pray.

    Bring nothing but your tears,

    Your regrets and fears..for what has gone awry,

    And what is now come into play.

    My people are scattered, their works repealed,

    Their strikes, their rights, their hard-won wages reviled.

    Their lives of toil and camaraderie forgot,

    Traded away as an auctioned lot,

    Along with their “crude and clumsy jot”.

    Their fumbling demands for rights at work,

    Dismissed by “class-less” finishing-schooled dolts,

    With soft, crème’d hands and a tongue that is forked.

    No..bring me no roses on this, such a day,

    For I am still weeping for my lost comrades..

    Give flowers to the “pretty people” as they go about their play,

    The soft, sweet scent will hide the stench as they betray.

    The working class Australia I grew up with is gone…dead..replaced with a younger, new class of risky-financed middle-class aspirants of part-time/casualised.. barely anybodies.. that, I have to confess..I have never seen SO ambitious to clamour toward such radical mediocrity.

  12. James Mason

    As always an interesting read Joseph.. Many thanks once again .. I have posted it on FB as I feel (and as I have stated on FB) Your pieces are always interesting and I think this piece is not only relevant for our time at the moment, it’s a positively uplifting viewpoint .. Cheers .. look forward to more this year .. JHM

  13. Joseph Carli

    Thank you James…very muchly indeed…

  14. Oscar

    Miriam Trump went to all the finest Schools and Colleges.Though he’s still an arsesole.It didn’t help him very much.

  15. Kaye Lee

    I am not sure we can categorise people on the basis of what school they went to. I also question whether confrontation is the best way to achieve progress. The internet has given us an amazing opportunity to learn and to discuss varying opinions but it brings with it the danger of misinformation being given as much credence as fact-based evidence – climate change being an obvious example. I think we also have a responsibility to avoid discussions degenerating into a slanging match rather than a genuine consideration of differing opinions.

  16. Joseph Carli

    Kaye Lee….what you have written above, is what I see as one of THE basic problems when it comes to seeking political solutions…It is what got Trump elected, it is what is driving so many people to look at “independants” as a solution to what they see as the problem….it is that seeming endless obfuscating waffle by the “educated” that is little more than throwing oil on troubled waters…that notion of “calm, calm…just relax…take your Soma…we’ll look after you…”….and that’s just it!!…NOTHING’S been looked after…the middle-class has been in charge for hundreds of years and this is what we end up with….It’s not good Kaye Lee….it’s not good at all…in fact ..it’s bloody shithouse!..and I cannot see this new breed of managerial class doing anything about it….TALK!…that’s about all….

    No..time to forget “differing opinions” when they all add up to the same solution…I ..and this is MY opinion…believe we need a bit more “affirmative action”…and one of those is to kick the middle-class out of ALL managerial positions for a start!

    They really don’t know what they are doing any more…..if they ever did!

    And private schools!!…over 80% of the Abbott govt’ and THAT passed over to the Turnbull and Morrison govt’s came from a background of private schooled education…and at least 50% of Labor…what do you reckon you are going to end up with?
    “Dolce et decorum est . . .” ?

  17. Miriam English

    Joe, I said ONE thing you and Trump have in common. And I didn’t do so for other people’s benefit. It was purely to get you to rethink your peculiar anti-expert inverted snobbery. It seems to be rearing its head among many people who should know better.

    It baffles me that you, who spout classical poetry and classical literary references, wishing to appear in a class above also have this odd hatred of the very people who you weirdly admire the most.

    It has this feel to me of those most homophobic people who turn out to be gay — hating the very thing they are attracted to.

    How much time do I spend…? Too much. My piece about being happy was written years ago for a dear friend who spends a lot of time depressed and I became fearful for. I am perhaps the happiest person I know, so wanted to pass on something of what I’ve learned. Since then I’ve resurrected it a few times for other people (depression seems horrifyingly common), so some months back decided to make it a permanent feature of my website. If it can help anybody then I’m glad. Why would you sneer at that?

  18. Kaye Lee

    I don’t really understand the term middle-class in an Australian context. Can you define what makes someone middle-class? Are teachers middle-class? And if so, should they be kicked out of their jobs because of their education?

    PS I don’t think you can extrapolate from the 226 people who chose to go into federal politics to make judgements on the broader community.

  19. Joseph Carli

    Miriam..I have stated to friends ( I DO have a couple) that studying Roman History was both a good and bad thing…Good because it allowed me a window into those primary sources that tell one the colourful and detailed accounts of the fall of the history of those times…Not so good, because it showed me the inside knowledge of how the ruling classes manage and manipulate the masses for political and economic reasons…that old chestnut of : “When you gaze into the abyss. . . “…….What did Conrad say..: “The Horror, the horror!”

    I wrote on it once…:

    “This principle of the “Established order” has come down through the ages more or less intact.. and Vico’s theory of “cyclical order” of Theocracy, Aristocracy, Democracy became entrenched with the rule of The Popes and the rise of the “Machiavellian Princes”in the age of the Medicis etc. The well-informed nineteenth / twentieth century social economist ; Thorsten Veblen noted this “management” within the higher learning establishment..

    To quote:
    “So far, nothing has been said of the Maecenas function of the well-to-do, which is habitually dwelt on at some length by writers and speakers who treat of the development of culture and of social structure. This leisure-class function is not without an important bearing on the higher and on the spread of knowledge and culture. The manner and the degree in which the class furthers learning through patronage of this kind is sufficiently familiar. It has been frequently presented in affectionate and effective terms by spokesmen whose familiarity with the topic fits them to bring home to their hearers the profound significance of this cultural factor. These spokesmen, however, have presented the matter from the point of view of the cultural interest, or of the interest of reputability, rather than from that of the economic interest….By way of characterization of the Maecenas relation, it is to be noted that, considered externally, as an economic or industrial relation simply, it is a relation of status. The scholar under the patronage performs the duties of a learned life vicariously for his patron, to whom a certain repute inures after the manner of the good repute imputed to a master for whom any form of vicarious leisure is performed…”

    The maintaining of influence of what Veblen calls :”The Maecenas factor” (of patronage) has to be backed , if it is to be a continuity of culture, by some very deep pockets and very serious power. It has not come down the ages intact to be let slip so easily from the vice-like grip of inherited establishment. “

  20. Joseph Carli

    ” Can you define what makes someone middle-class?”………..: You.

  21. Miriam English

    Oscar, I expect you’re right that Trump went to expensive schools. It looks like he didn’t learn anything, though. He is appallingly uneducated.

    Joe sees himself as lacking in conventional education, but he’s actually far better educated than Trump could ever hope to be. Joe learned a trade and enjoys books.

  22. Kaye Lee

    Soooo….both my parents were teachers. I went to a public school in the western suburbs of Sydney. I won a scholarship to go to university in return for which I had to promise to work for four years wherever they chose to send me. We lived with my grandparents until Dad eventually got a war service loan to buy a house that they never finished paying off until Dad retired and took a lump sum super payout. That makes me middle-class?

  23. Joseph Carli

    Strange, Kaye…every time I hear your bio, it becomes something else…didn’t your family once run an hotel “out west”?

    But it’s your condescending nature that marks you off as middle class…

  24. Miriam English

    Joe, interesting. I’ve never heard Kaye be condescending. On the other hand you often sneer at and are patronising to people. Why do you hear something in Kaye that isn’t there, I wonder. What has made you so alarmed by someone who speaks with knowledge and equanimity?

  25. Kaye Lee

    My grandfather owned a pub in a very small country town on the mid-north coast of NSW. Many of the family worked and lived there. Because my mother chose to leave and pursue a career herself, she was left nothing in his will. My other grandfather, who we also lived with for a while, worked on the railways.
    You know nothing about me Joe. Why do you always make it personal?

  26. Kaye Lee

    Miriam,

    I made the mistake of possibly over-reacting to a couple of Joe’s early pieces because I am overly sensitive to the objectification of women. I tried to explain that it was an issue that I am sensitive to. I don’t like the concept of women being viewed as a luscious fruit ripe for the peeling and the idea of men ogling me as I do the grocery shopping is very uncomfortable for me. It’s been downhill from there. I guess some would see me as prudish. (My husband knows better but he is the only man that does and that’s how I like it)

  27. RomeoCharlie29

    Upon review I have decided the following is garbled garbage, read it at your peril.

    I love the stereotypes that seem to excite Joe so much. My dad was working class my mother aspirational to be middle class. As the oldest child, and a son, she desperately wanted me to be educated and go to uni, so sent me to a private school which I hated but which, my sister (afforded no such opportunity) pointed out actually gave me some educational advantages despite my recalcitrance and, being honest, laziness and bloody-mindedness. I repeated Intermediate and Leaving for a bare pass and didn’t get to uni. Did it help me into a solid middle class career though? Probably. And along the way my mother dragged my father into a quasi middle class (they were founding members of a golf club, and what is more middle class than that?) So, approaching my fourth quarter century in age, I describe myself as non-working middle class but a social democrat, even socialist and have been called a Trotskyite for some of my views ( though I don’t know which views) but I play golf. All this is a roundabout way of saying I resent being lumped into a category seen as an oppressor of the working class.

    But I am going to post it anyway.

  28. Kaye Lee

    RC,

    What you called “garbled garbage” is exactly the point I was trying to make. Our lives are a mish-mash of experience and opportunity. I find it hard to understand exactly who Joe is cross with (aside from me).

  29. Miriam English

    Kaye, ah, I see. That’s a pity.

    Joe is so angry and combative… he tries so hard to alienate people, and wears it as a perverse badge of pride. (Mocking educated middle class people, for example.) He tries to justify it by attributing all the bad things to middle class people, but that really doesn’t make sense. He hates and desires higher education both at the same time.

    I used to be very close to someone who is desperately unhappy and angry almost all the time. Her alcoholism has, for some time now, been eating away at her ability to have healthy relationships with people. Many of the things Joe says, and the way he says them, remind me of her. If you have a problem with alcohol, Joe, there is no shame in that, but if it is the case, then for your own sake and those around you, seek help. It has been utterly harrowing watching slowly it destroy my friend. Only she can help herself, but she refuses to… and the anger and resentment just grows and grows, consuming her and alienating her from friends and family and everyone around her… and the only way is down… because she refuses anything else.

    Miriam….
    you’re incorrect about Trump not learning anything…He learned EXACTLY what was expected of him to learn in one of those institutions…: How to be an avaricious bastard!…
    The selection process that filters out those who are “one of the team” from those who are “difficult” is the singular reason such institutions exist!….NOT to give a good education, THAT is a by-product of the selection process..When you consider most of these old sandstone schools were started by a financial mogul, you have to concede THAT is the preferred modus operandi of that school!…
    In Sth Aust’ , the most prestigious schools (St Peters..Pultney Grammar) were started with moneys from (and who also sat on the board of governors) the entrepreneurial / speculative middle-class.

  30. Joseph Carli

    sorry about that edit…but the site wouldn’t let me comment to you any other way.

    Well…that IS weird!!

  31. Joseph Carli

    Miriam, Kaye, RC…..All that stuff you say..it’s gotta be a laugh…doesn’t it!!!

  32. Joseph Carli

    Oh..sweet jesus!…oh oh oh! hold my sides!…the way you chat to eachother..it reminds me of when I had a job moonlighting behind a club bar as a barman…you become “invisible” and the customers just chat away like you’re not there…hilarious…
    But seriously…I had to post something and stir the pot a bit…it (the comments section ) was starting to sound like one of those new-age ; “Pass the talking stick and say something sweet about the person sitting next to you” sessions…except this time you find yourself sitting between Myra Hindley and the Boston Strangler!

  33. Joseph Carli

    I’d rather be Bolshie than Bourgshi

  34. Joseph Carli

    Miriam… ; ” Joe, interesting. I’ve never heard Kaye be condescending.”….you must have Van Gogh’s ear for listening!

  35. Miriam English

    Trump learned most of his life lessons from his repulsive white-supremacist father. I don’t think he learned much, if anything from educational institutions. He can barely read or write.

    A while back I watched a documentary made by the heir to the Johnson & Johnson family fortune. He was a gentle person who didn’t understand the aggressive, cut-throat attitude of his classmates. He interviewed a lot of them and many seemed like lost people. It made me pity them. One awful interview was with one of Trump’s daughters, where she mocked and laughed about poverty. My point is that not all of those people are monsters. And it’s not the schools that make them into horrible people. In fact, in the documentary it was clear that the school was trying very hard to heal one of the most lost kids. There was never much that could be done for Trump’s kid. She was screwed the day she was born; she’ll be very lucky not to turn out as a monster.

  36. Joseph Carli

    I would like to see the Labour movement along with the unions and the political arm of the Left bring more rank and file workers to the political fore and utilise the “in-situ” experience of long-term skilled people to create a new, more structurally sound body of political grunt to confront and defeat the filth from the Right wing .

    The reserves of power and enthusiasm in the over-shadowed educated working class must now be utilised and promoted to the highest levels of political office. What some would see as the “vulgar” or “crude” mechanism of leverage of power has to be reconsidered in the light of what we see now in this current government; a politburo of poisonous, poltroons with not the slightest trace of decency and honour for all their years of private, expensive schooling and the best suits and bling OUR expense accounts can buy. We are looking at filth of the lowest order and if these criothans can lay claim to the highest standards of rhetoric and education, then I say ;

    F#CK THE BULLSHIT…give the workers the power, we’ll straighten them out !

  37. Joseph Carli

    Working class politics of today is held captive by what could be called “middle-class protocol”. There seems to be little far reaching political radicalism that would benefit the producing classes that has not first been vetted and screened through “approved” channels of middle-class perception and acceptability..that is : “keep it respectable, keep it tidy and clean”..so that any venture into radical left-wing politics now looks and smells like a sterilised and white-washed version of capitalist aspiration.

    My mother worked on a sheep station along the Murray River many years ago, where if a flock of sheep were needed to be brought across a shallow ford, a tame, domestic pet sheep well practised in entering the water , would be brought to act as lead sheep to encourage the flock to follow it into the river and so to cross to the other side. Its job done, it would be once again cut from the herd and taken back to the homestead and suitably rewarded. There are those of the middle-class embedded within the left-wing of politics who act as such a drone to “guide and direct” both political aspiration and social aggression to a place safe and secure for those wanting to control any outcome from political dissent.

  38. Kaye Lee

    Joseph,

    You may not be aware of how this site came about. Michael used to host a great site called Cafe Whispers where he would throw up a topic for discussion, we would pull up a chair and chat about it. People often disagreed but that was ok. It got to the stage where people wanted more in depth conversation and this type of forum was better suited to that. How we chat to each other, provided it is done civilly, is not your place to dictate. Being respectful to each other is not a sign of weakness.

    And you still haven’t explained what middle-class means. You stereotype and generalise and then, when asked to explain, all you can come up with is “you”?

  39. Diannaart

    “Criothans”

    Anyone familiar with the etymology? I suspect it is some kind of slang, not found in any dictionaries (Oxford,Collins).

  40. Joseph Carli

    Au contraire, KL…I used to post on The Whispers…I even had to squash a crumb rwnj there who had a blog called ;”Ian’s sand pit”..I forget his name…but I have been around the oval a couple of times myself…

    Now, you say : ” How we chat to each other, provided it is done civilly, is not your place to dictate.”……I don’t recall ever dictating that…but hey…don’t let accuracy get in your way..But I would like to give a little hint..to yourself and perhaps anyone others who would like to listen…after all, we all of us have had long experience with blogging / Twitter etc…
    I have been blogging for many years now..and have contributed to several long term sites with articles, stories and cameos..here included, and on “Cafe Whispers”, back in “the good ol’ days”….along without fear of stated comments ..and why not..why not?…I am a grown adult, of satisfactory intelligence and education..just like so many others here there and elsewhere…why do we not all contribute our learned wisdom or experience in the blogosphere’s rich tapestry? Like most other Australians, I too have lived and experienced the political and social vicissitudes that come all our ways…yet…yet there appears this mute indifference now to make waves in what can be described as the calm pond of shared misfortune of living under an anarchistic government.

    There appears to me to be a almost involuntary or uncontrollable design by some members of a regular blogging fraternity sited on established blog-sites to corral and herd those other commentators on the blog around one particular doctrine that their own psyche of control demands charge of. A cabal or clique is slowly formed…the followers identifiable by the flattery they exercise toward one or two favourites and these “apostles” are jealously guarded and stroked in agreeable condescension, while those who are contrary are gradually chipped off the mother-load and discarded as blogging mullock to be cursed or mocked until they drop off the conversation…every conversation..and eventually out of the blog altogether.
    The end result being a blog with no more than a core of regular commentators each stroking each other in oily concurrence with little original conversation but a plethora of cut and paste Tweets and links…until there is really not much point even commenting any more..the vacant commentary page a symbol of their success..NOT in the form of intelligent discussion, but rather, in the evidence of the vacant page, of their command and control of the conversation of those “once were warriors” posters, whose only claim to any residual originality being a quirky “Gravitar” of their own design.
    The “power” of their persuasion or coercion becoming the portent of doom of a once vibrant blog becoming little more than a “zombie blog”.

  41. Rhonda

    Can’t be helpful for your anger management issues JC

  42. Joseph Carli

    Diannaart…It is Irish…Frank O’Connor used it in one of his stories…:”Orpheus and his Lute”…I never could find out what it means…can YOU identify with it?…it IS a bloody good word!

  43. Joseph Carli

    Oh, Rhonda…how thoughtful…”muh, muh!” (air kisses for you).

  44. Diannaart

    Joseph

    No I can’t, never heard of it.

    Which is why I posited the question.

    Google thinks I am searching for Corinthians 😝

  45. Michael Taylor

    Of the number of people who read our articles only a small percentage of them actually comment here. Most of them return to where they came from (mainly Facebook) to add their comments. Oddly, they sometimes even comment about our comments.

    Whilst discussion under our comments is always welcome, it’s how the discussion develops that has a greater success for the site than the quality of our articles.

    Sadly, tit for tat stuff affects us badly. When discussions plummet into tit for tat … our readership drops severely. I know this because I keep an eye on the stats all day. When readership drops, so does our income. Carol and I put $4,000 a year into this site from our own pocket. One would expect that we know how we want this site to run. We think we’re doing just fine as it is. We don’t want it changed.

    Kaye was right in that it’s much like the Cafe. There were a number of topics being discussed and you’d just join in to the one that interested you. We want to keep that here. We want a cafe atmosphere … not a front bar of an outback pub.

  46. Kaye Lee

    Joe,

    I remember Iain. He was all over the internet with his weirdo views and it didn’t matter how many times he was shown facts, he was just unstoppable. I wish you would understand that we are on the same side. I feel no malice towards you. I am bemused as to how we got to this position but could we try to start again?

    I’m sorry Michael. I understand what you are saying. I do tend to antagonise some people. I am trying to work on that.

  47. pappinbarra fox

    I always start to read Joes articles and am mightily impressed but I can never finish them because they become too intellectual for this true working class mind.

  48. Matters Not

    Iain Hall. Now he could annoy. And he was here, there and everywhere across the Net. Had an ego problem also.

  49. Joseph Carli

    “. . . they become too intellectual for this true working class mind.”…..as a carpenter, I can sympathise with you…I was always more comfortable with the first length of the tape measure..once it got out past five metres, I was all out of my depth…that is why none of my constructions are more than five metres any which way… 🙂

  50. DrakeN

    Y’no, Joe, your remind me of my father – a classic case of inverted snobbery.

    I met a thick-as-pigshit shop steward who was especially respected on the shop floor – he was convinced, and managed to convince a majority of his acolytes that the “intelligencia” were the source of all the world’s wrongs and that they should be excluded from all decisionmaking affecting society.

    You may not be as stupid as that man, but you really do have a lot to learn about the actual workings of the world.

  51. Joseph Carli

    DrakeN…you write as one who has “turned the pages” of some ancient tome of portent, but are reticent to tell of what you found there…To claim that one has “a lot to learn about the actual workings of the world”…would imply that YOU know of these things….So prithy..kind oracle..tell us of these mysteries…. ?

  52. Kaye Lee

    For me, this conversation kind of links in with Labor’s latest plan to improve our comparative standing in the world of standardised testing by requiring higher ATAR scores for teaching. After many years in the field, the best teachers are not necessarily those who got the top marks in the HSC. Effective teaching has a lot more to do with understanding student’s individual needs, having good communication skills, resilience, compassion, being able to impart an enthusiasm for learning etc than what mark the teacher got in some test when they were 18. It’s not what I know that matters….can I enthuse others to want to find stuff out themselves.

  53. Miriam English

    “Criothan” may simply be a typo with a misplaced “i”. Some people in Latin American countries contract the word “Corinthians” to “Crothians”. The word “crothian” can also refer in a military context, I think, to a melee fighter… I don’t know much about that though.

    Joe, a person (such as DrakeN) doesn’t have to be a genius or holder of transcendant knowledge to see that inverted snobbery doesn’t solve anything.

    During dinner tonight I watched a documentary on the technological problems in building a space elevator — something that would make space travel about as cheap as airline flight. I couldn’t help wondering how a world run by working-class people could manage such a thing… or building computers whose CPU chips need more than three quarters of a trillion transistors on a piece of silicon a few centimeters by a few centimeters… or maintaining programs of millions of lines of code… or catering for telecommunications satellites 35,000km above the Earth… or dealing with the next virus that jumps species boundaries and runs rampant.

    Now, don’t misunderstand me. I know working class people are perfectly capable of learning how to do these things. My point is that they are no longer working class people. They are now higher-educated middle-class people.

  54. RosemaryJ36

    I come from England where the class system is firmly entrenched. All my education, primary, secondary and tertiary, was fully funded by the government and, on merit, my secondary education was in a grammar school, geared to lead to university. I am well acquainted with inverse snobbery. I do not regard myself as special or superior but I have been privileged and feel an obligation to put something back into society. That is not being condescending, it is a genuine acceptance that I have a debt which I must repay as a matter of honour.
    I have close friends from all walks of life and we have serious discussions on issues over which we strongly disagree.
    Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but when it comes to matters of fact, then there is truth and there is mistake.
    My education leads me to feel confident that global warming, climate change, whatever you choose to call it, is for real and I fear for the future of my 3 great grandchildren.
    At 83 next week, having continued study throughout my life, I am concerned that we are running out of time to take action which might, eventually enable mankind to slow down their impact on climate.
    We really cannot afford to be squabbling over hurt feelings.

  55. Diannaart

    Kaye Lee

    Labor’s plan is something I would expect from the LNP. Appearing to be doing something without dealing with the reality of low pay, contracts instead of ongoing, cuts in funding to public schools, administrative tasks which swamp the teacher, teacher’s aids a rarity.

    My sister could explain this better than I. Eight years ago she graduated as a secondary teacher, after years of working as an electronics technician, she has finally found an ongoing position teaching electronics, woodwork and maths to years 7, 8 and 11.

    She loves teaching, however the lack of support in a rapidly changing environment wears her down.

    The problem is not whether teachers scored a high mark, as Kaye Lee pointed out, it is the lack of investment by successive governments in education.

  56. Joseph Carli

    Miriam…a fault in your undrstanding of many things is that you spend more time thinking of a response than listening to what is being said to you..Did you not read my reply to Diannaart…the word; ‘criothan” is an Irish word, used by Frank O’Connor in a short story…a very funny short story…that has been reprinted many times where any typo would have been discovered and corrected…the story is “Orpheus and His Lute”…..

    Likewise your undrstanding of just what and how much the working class assists many of your “higher-educated middle- class people”….For instance, it would not surprise me if that virus that jumps species boundaries would be resolved by a cleaner who, upon seeing that petrie-tray with the guilty species in it , didn’t give it a quick spray of “Mr Muscle” shower-power cleaner and solved the problem once and for all…I have had experience first hand with the “floating genius” of the working class when confronted with a physical / scientific conundrum…for instance..:

    “Static Electricity”.

    I hope I have not given the impression that the only intellectual activity in the front bar of the Seacliff Hotel was “bending the elbow”…and getting inebriated?….I would like to assert that, like many front bars dotted about this great country, a good deal of instructive and philosophical comment was conducted on any given night of the week in that establishment…I would like to assert that..I really would….why, it would not surprise me in the least that the great discovery of the healing mould from which Florey extracted penicillin was not in a Petri-dish in his sterile laboratory, but rather scraped from the underside of a drinks-coaster surreptitiously slipped into his hip pocket by the very same Florey from down the local hostelry.

    The front-bar of “The Cliff” had it’s own level of curious and investigative clientele right there on the spot…amazing revelation was not a stranger to that den of iniquity…there were things….strange things.. For instance, there was the night of Mick’s discovery of anti-gravity. It happened like this..:

    Mick, in the middle of a discussion group debating the case of whether the Morris Minor 850. was the better than the Datsun 120Y. in both acceleration and cornering capability, suddenly felt the urge for “ablution”, excused himself with a polite “gotta have a leak” and made for the men’s toilet there just behind them…taking his pint-glass of beer with him because he was too lazy to place it on the busy bar, he alone, fronted the porcelain…the old ceramic urinal was in the corner, and as every male knows, you have to go to the least exposure risk place while “shaking hands with your first lover”…there, while doing his business, Mick leaned with his pint glass held pressed into the corner of the walls..the plaster there being softened from years of warmth and steamy moisture had become somewhat softer, so when Mick leaned his weight against the pint-glass pressed into the corner the plaster “gave” a tad so that the glass became “wedged” into the corner..at least, that is what a “novice” like myself would have concluded..A curious and investigative mind such as Mick’s concluded differently. When he zipped up and pulled away from the urinal and the wall, the glass stayed there, suspended, unaided by anything visible to the naked eye…almost like anti-gravity!….Now, Mick was already given to occult-like sympathies..”the paranormal” was normal to Mick…to inform that he once gaily announced to his mate ; Mark that when he and Tracey have a child they will call HIM “Andromeda”..well?

    “Have a look at this!” Mick announced loudly from the door of the men’s toilet..indeed, there was hesitation…then as the obvious faded and curiosity took over the crowd surged toward the doorway…there being room only for a small number to enter, the crowding was extreme, the interest also…the general hubbub of opinion on “what was the power?” suspending the pint-glass of beer mid-wall, mid-air as the case may be was discussed…many worthy theories were put forward and rejected with equal intelligence…until, in a moments pause in the hubbub, the high, falsetto voice of Jeff Otto sang above the crowd…

    “Static electricity”….

    There was a gasp of wonder at the obvious simplistic truth of this explanation that solved the puzzle and the crowd, in accepting the obvious resolution quickly drifted back to their previous conversations at the bar.

    And throughout the rest of the night, in those curious hushes that every now and then descend upon crowd chatter, Jeff Otto’s attractive falsetto could be heard to pronounce in a now more confident assertion…

    “Yep!…that’s what it was…static electricity..simple, when you think on it !”

  57. Kaye Lee

    You tell a great story Joe but I most certainly do not want people like Mick running the country. I kinda like facts rather than tall tales from the pub toilet.

    We all have different skills. We need each other.

  58. Joseph Carli

    ” I kinda like facts rather than tall tales from the pub toilet.”…………………………….bad news, Kaye……

  59. Kaye Lee

    Huh?

  60. Matters Not

    Re Tanya Plibersek’s comments which are an ongoing worry, given her husband was once a DG of Education in NSW. The negatives such as:

    reality of low pay, contracts instead of ongoing, cuts in funding to public schools, administrative tasks

    seemed to fly below her radar. And it’s not the first time she’s disappointed. In fact her ‘positives’ are few and far between. For me, she’s been a big disappointment

    Re:

    best teachers are not necessarily those who got the top marks in the HSC

    Yes – but it’s even a bit more complicated than that. Take mathematics teachers as an example (generalisations follow). Separation rates are higher than average, particularly in the beginning years. And that’s a fact. For some, it’s the better pay in the private sector (away from teaching) etc but there’s also ‘personality factors’ – broadly defined. Those attracted to mathematics are often more comfortable manipulating symbols (on a BB for example) than they are with communication via verbal skills. (And so much of teaching below university level demands good verbal skills.)

    A teacher who can’t control a class has a miserable life and soon yearns for a more comfortable existence. (Self separation results.) For those who persist, on average, they are more likely to come to the attention of Principals etc. (Forced separations are also above average.)

    What makes a good teacher is a complicated issue. Defining same seems to be a necessary starting point.

    In fact defining terms or concepts is essential for any discussion if it’s to have any validity or usefulness.

  61. Michael Taylor

    ” I kinda like facts rather than tall tales from the pub toilet.”…………………………….bad news, Kaye……

    But, Joe, isn’t that the premise of your post? The pursuit of facts?

  62. Kaye Lee

    Of course those of us who are good at maths can earn more money in a far less stressful job. I earned more in my part time job as a bookmaker’s clerk than I did teaching in the early days. A “good teacher” imparts a love of learning. They bolster self-esteem and resilience in kids. They encourage kids to try. They teach skills that enable kids to research and to question the credibility of their sources. They enable. They reassure kids that getting something wrong is not a bad thing but a chance to learn. We don’t just teach academic intelligence. We try to foster emotional intelligence and respect for others. I could go on for hours about what makes a good teacher. I very much agree that it is a hellish job for those who have trouble with discipline. Winning the kids’ respect is important as is insisting that they respect each other.

  63. Matters Not

    Facts are necessary – but only as a starting point. Necessary but NEVER sufficient. Facts are terribly overrated.

  64. Miriam English

    Joe said, “Miriam…a fault in your undrstanding of many things is that you spend more time thinking of a response than listening to what is being said to you..Did you not read my reply to Diannaart”

    And you think Kaye is condescending. God, Joe, your comments so often positively drip with sneering disdain. No, I missed that reply. The word piqued my curiosity. I’m interested in words and was merely trying to be helpful.

    And then you go on, wanting to dismiss my point about learning to do complex things, but attempting to do so with a story that quite literally goes nowhere and doesn’t even support what you’re saying??? I don’t think I have the patience for this anymore.

  65. Diannaart

    MN

    What makes a good teacher is a complicated issue.

    I agree.

    I wasn’t writing a thesis on the issue, just a brief comment underlining the lack of thought by successive government towards education and other public necessities.

    Plebersek can do far better than a dog whistle to the blamers among the voting public.

  66. Matters Not

    Diannaart, frankly I don’t care what the LNP think about teaching (broadly defined) because they are now history (and for very good reasons) but I do care what future Labor Ministers think. And it seems to be that their aspirations need some work.

  67. Michael Taylor

    I don’t think I have the patience for this anymore.

    If there’s one thing that pisses Carol and I off is when good people leave a thread – or this site – because of the way they’re treated.

    What’s the point of us paying people to promote our articles if people are being driven away?

    We may as well shut up shop.

  68. Diannaart

    MN

    Labor is in dire need of remedial social democracy, they’ve forgotten their roots.

  69. Kaye Lee

    Diannaart,

    You are so right. Teachers spend so much time doing stuff like marking rolls, doing playground duty, doing bus duty, sitting with the lunchtime or after-school detention group, filling in paperwork etc etc etc when we should be preparing lessons, marking kids’ work to get it back to them while it is still relevant, helping those who are struggling and extending those who are excelling…..I know how your sister feels.

  70. RosemaryJ36

    Michael – maybe you need to be more selective about the authors or comments which you post? It is one thing to encourage debate but quite another when the discussion becomes personal or overly antagonistic. If your authors cannot accept criticism they should establish their own blogs!

  71. Trevor Vivian

    As far as the Labor party goes, Pissants was the great Whitlam’s succinct oratory.
    The foulest of the foul have always contended they are born to it, true Libs with Agrarian Socialism farms.
    You know, that Ruling, the class that rules.
    Almost seems no relevance from this past can remain.
    Instead of mechanics for cars, it’s now technicians rule the day..
    Can anybody tell me did anything change with the words.
    Did anything change apart from rising anger and dismay as
    The future thought to become comes undone.
    Even if Labor wins, or forbid it, looses, just as likely
    Australia, this stolen land remains,
    abused from generations of fear filled hate, still inculcated to this day.
    Ps: these words were distilled by the comments from the clarity the article displayed.

    Instant arseholes, Add alcohol.

  72. Terence Mills

    I have no idea what’s going on here : I think I’ll walk the dog !

  73. Joseph Carli

    LISTEN…The point of this article and what is MY PERSONAL OPINION..is that the middle-classes ought NOT BE IN POSITIONS OF POWER IN BOTH GOVERNANCE OR ECONOMICS….Other than that , I don’t give a rats about them..they can go about their little squrilling away businesses…their : “Ooo you take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves” world…JUST DON’T LET THEM GET COMMAND OF EITHER THE ECONOMY OR THE POLITICAL POWER……because they are shithouse at running either!!…and if or when they do, you can almost gaurantee it is the end of that society and in some extreme cases, the end of that civilisation.

    Oh…just reading the later posts…I was away from the site watching Wolf Hall so I didn’t finish off last night…
    Michael..what I meant by : “Bad news Kaye”…was that it sometimes seems that most governmental decisions are made in the toilets!!

  74. Joseph Carli

    So many are here defending their class status…and THAT’S got nothing to do with the thesis…I claim that the middle classes, from the time of the Ancient Greek Oligarchs, to the Ancient Roman Equestrian order, down through to the British Empire’s Captains of Industry, to now with the stock market’s “Masters of the Universe” speculators…those classes have destroyed their respective societies…You can dig around the entrails of those mentioned above but I can tell you for a fact that here in Sth Aust’, a settlement…NOT A COLONY…a settlement started by a group of middle-class wankers and speculators was a complete schamozzle that didn’t even get started before it was bankrupt and had to be rescued by the British taxpayer to the tune of over 300,000 pounds..a classic example of : “Private profit and social cost”….and they completely f#cked up the land, the indigenous peoples, the civil order and anything else they could get their hands on….an absolute balls up!!…and STILL we get f#ckwits like the Downers running around saying : “We’re nation builders!”….they’re shit!!!..

    Right..they..: the middle classes can go about their business, just DON’T let them or theirs ANYWHERE near management…

  75. Joseph Carli

    And Michael…if a few pissant commentators get weak in the knees and piss off…so what!…Blogging is like a highway…you build a good one that gets people places and they will come and fill it…if conflict was a turn-off for commentary, Twitter wouldn’t exist!

    And RosemaryJ36….I do have my own blog…but it is only a obscure private blog…not with standing that, even for just two articles over the last two days that I put up on Twittr I got over a hundred hits..and I’m a nobody..So if there are so many “delicate” people out there, they are not telling me!

  76. Kaye Lee

    I agree that greater diversity in our parliament would help decision-making but our system of winner takes all means that once they are there they don’t want to frighten the horses. We should really be thinking about what sort of government we want when we become a republic because the current system is not working well. As I have mentioned before, I would like to see a multi-party executive. And the teacher in me would change the current seating arrangement and make people sit next to someone who is from another party and put the two leaders at the same table under the Speaker, No more treasury and opposition benches, just elected parliamentarians all in together. And I wouldn’t give hecklers an early mark to get to the bar first – they can come and sit in single file in the middle in the naughty kids chairs straight in front of the speaker and their leaders. THAT might make them behave rather than feed off each other’s bad behaviour.

    (PS Twitter is a different universe to here.)

  77. Joseph Carli

    ” (PS Twitter is a different universe to here.)”…But you are not on Twitter, Kaye…and It is not that different than here…for a while there I was using Twitter as a blogging site, the only trouble is that it sometimes moves so fast, that you have to keep uploading your post and it makes some think you are trolling…there is an art-form to using either…blogging on a site like this gives the author time…but sometimes not THAT much time ..to get their point across..but the toruble is, if the article exceeds more than approx 1000 words, it is hardly read at all..just skimmed…and sometimes the point is missed..where-as with Twitter, the synopsis post is short so people read it all and if it jars their interest they will go to it or save it for later…and THAT is where the art lies..in the attraction of the synopsis..

  78. Joseph Carli

    Miriam..you talk of all these extreme scientific projects..: Space elevators and exploration and satellite catering stuff…that’s just entertainment for the super trained…it REALLY does not concern the majority on Earth..it’s just a lot of fooling around with squillions of dollars to do what?..a settlement on Mars??…what a crock!…what need is there for that?..and even if they did..with the attitude of philosophy thay have here on Earth, it woiuld only be a matter of time before they did the same there….It’s all just a tease, while here on Earth we are going to pieces because of free-market philosophy…
    But it is those virus’s I’d worry about.

  79. Kaye Lee

    It has its place Joseph but I enjoy the conversation that follows articles here (usually). As we all know, I talk too much.

    Go back a few years and who would have believed we would all have computers and the internet. Who would have believed the things we can now do with mobile phones. I am still astonished at how faxes work. I can’t keep up.

  80. Vikingduk

    Once again and for the last time, l’ve had it confirmed why I delete joe (the ego has landed) Carli dribbles, unread. That legend in his own headspace to me is just another pretentious wanker. So joe, please fuck off.

    Apologies to administrators, etc., writers and commenters usually don’t piss me off to this extent, so no more, straight to the bin goes Carli.

  81. Kerry

    This post is not directed to Joseph but to the editors and readers here: I do not understand why you publish so much of Joseph’s writing when he is clearly only writing to get attention and engage in pointless arguments with your readers. He is doing the exact thing that he is supposedly writing about.

    Calling readers “little chickadees” as if we came down in the last shower and are completely unaware of social media is just strange and out of touch. Condescending yet sad.

    I have no experience of being a barfly so cannot relate to the tale. I found it boring and irrelevant. My father volunteered as a coach after working as a teacher all day, I don’t recall him ever hanging out at the pub. Everyone has to do what they gotta do but it there is no moral superiority to getting slowly pissed at the pub every night of the week and hallucinating science at the men’s urinal. This is not interesting reading.

    And goodness knows what it had to do with social media!

    This is the real issue with Joseph’s writing: it lacks coherent argument. This makes for frustrating reading and no doubt frustrated comments.

    A good writer knows what they want to say and then they say it. Saying one thing then writing about another entirely unrelated thing is sloppy and self indulgent. Even the most creative writer understands this: refer to Lawson’s poem: its one theme from start to finish.

    I agree with Rosemary he would be better off with a Blog or at the very least some heavy editorial reviewing before publication. This will help the author as well as the reader.

  82. Karl Young

    Joseph how would you measure and collate these Middle Class people? Give them a number like the Nazis’s?

  83. Joseph Carli

    Vikingduk…You have a misplaced consonant in your name……just sayin’.

  84. Joseph Carli

    How would YOU do it, Karl..after all, it is your suggestion…you go first..

  85. Joseph Carli

    Christ!!…you’re an agressive lot, aren’t you?…wassamatter…the article get under your skin?…touch a sore spot?…Well…they made Socrates drink the hemlock for just the same reason…..they condemmed Gallileo for saying “uncomfortable” things…but y’know…I reckon I can take you lot on with one hand tied behind my back…

  86. Diannaart

    Perhaps a big yellow star or wrist tattoo, or, this being the 21st century, a microchip … of course identifying the middle class person maybe tricky …

    Final solution?
    In keeping with political fashion, just lock ‘em all up in detention camps.

    🙄

  87. Kaye Lee

    Aggression breeds aggression which is why I don’t think confrontation is the best way to make progress.

    Joe, it is you who wants to kick the middle-class out so you surely must have some way of defining them or identifying them. It surely can’t be just me? The guy who just did some work on my bathroom was telling me he had just bought his third investment property. Is he middle-class?

  88. Joseph Carli

    Diannaart..: ” of course identifying the middle class person maybe tricky …”

    Back in my primary school days, the game of marbles was a pretty big deal. There were several variations played in the dirt of the playground..I can remember a couple..one was a large circle where you had to hit and knock another player’s “dooks” out of the ring ..AND..hit it hard enough so your marble would also ricochet out of the ring or you would have to leave it in the “kitty” for others to have a shot at..There was another with a smaller ring..but I forget how that worked..however, you only used your “big-hitters” when you were more or less certain of the shot..you didn’t want to lose your best marbles.

    I remember my favourite was a “bloodtracker”..there were “cats-eyes” of various value , there were others that I can “see” but cannot remember their names..and of course, there was the mighty “Tombola”!

    As eight or nine year old kids, we traded and valued our marbles..there were some kids who never played the game. But always seemed to be hanging around the circle with a big string-pull bag of marbles that they would “trade”..these would grow to be the aspiring capitalists of the future.

    Every kid there knew the “exchange rate” for marbles..how many cats-eyes , or how many bloodtrackers etc…for a Tombola or the others in exchange. As young kids, we were pretty savvy at wheeling and dealing in those things we knew the value of.

    But there are always those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing…THAT, Diannaart is how you tell the middle-class.

  89. Joseph Carli

    Kaye Lee…why did he feel the need to tell you that?

  90. Diannaart

    Joseph

    There are always those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing …

    No, that’s how you identity an economic rationalist, who maybe from so called working class, middle class, upper-middle-bogan …

  91. Kaye Lee

    Where I live we all know each other Joseph. My tradies are also my friends. We chat. He wasn’t skiting. We were talking real estate because my daughter and her partner were looking for somewhere to buy. So is he middle-class?

  92. Joseph Carli

    Kaye Lee…what did he do on your bathroom…touch up the gold-plating on your taps?…but if the tradie can afford 3 investment properties, he’s probably charging you too much!
    Anyway…going out..cul8tr

  93. Kaye Lee

    Jesus Joe. You are impossible to talk to. What people are asking you is how you identify these middle-class people and it is obvious you have no answer.

  94. Sheep Dip

    I’d like to know why The AIMNetwork is run by The South Australian Mafia?

  95. Diannaart

    Many years ago when arguing with my then husband, I would start laughing, he could argue indefinitely, me? I just reach a point of “this is ridiculous” and laugh.

    Now, that sounds kinda cute, buuuuuut, that’s when my partner in life would hit me.

    Seeing as my sense of humour overrides my sense of self preservation, l left the dick.

    I still have my sense of humour and I am happy to share some today, because this thread has reached the Point of Ridiculousness.

    https://youtu.be/jnUBbEM3Mj8

  96. Josephus

    The author slams my comment on the double origin of the NS party as rubbish because he is not well informed. Hitler did hate the Bolshevists, but made a pact w that regime later, as you know. He also hated liberalism, though he came to power legally under Weimar. Early on Hitler’s thugs killed off the left of the party; some ex communists and socialists became Nazis out of a common hatred of capitalism, seen as venial and ‘Jew-ridden’. Stalin was an anti Semite. Extreme Left and Right do overlap in many ways; anarchists have long seen the State tyranny of both extremes as equally vile. Your views are relative, Joseph, as mine are, but I have read widely, and spoken to informed witnesses of that era.

  97. Peter F

    I just don’t get it, Joe. I was fortunate enough to go to private school in Brisbane at a time when the QLD government did not provide education for everyone beyond year 8. I won a Commonwealth scholarship and undertook studies at UQ. I have worked in the building industry since the mid ’60s and have always respected the knowledge and experience of those I have worked with. I hold the view that all work is to be valued, and so are all workers. I have learned much from those who have ‘hands on’ experience while also being able to (occasionally) give advice to those who seek it.

    I do not consider myself above or below anyone else. I despise out current ‘leaders’ for their shallowness.

    Please give some thought to the possibility that many here do NOT consider themselves superior to others.

  98. Diannaart

    Have been hopping through the multitudes of rabbit holes on YouTube.

    Thought this might help with the outing of those pesky middle class tosspots Joseph has difficulty with.

    The following video identifies an “Over-educated snow-topped nancy-boy”. Might be useful.

    https://youtu.be/YPK-pAq0W60

  99. totaram

    Diannaart: Thank you for that link.

  100. Paul Davis

    Diannaart, also thankxxxx. That was gold gold gold for ozstraya.

  101. guest

    Mm, Joseph “Grachus” Carli, Esq.

  102. Uta Hannemann

    The Uncultured Rhymer To His Cultured Critics

    Why does nobody refer to this poem and what Henry Lawson was on about?

  103. Peter Hannemann

    It seems to me the discussion has developed into a free-for-all slinging match. Other people have thought about the problems you are discussing here. For instance “The Frankfurt School” has investigated the pro and cons of several political systems.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

    The people belonging to this group were all educated people from the middle class who knew the middle class from the inside out.

    Joe Carli does not hate educated people. He dislikes people who use their education to screw the rest of us. “Real education” is something altogether, it prepares you to be of service to humanity in your chosen field. The Germans have a word for it, “Bildung”. The form of education forms the whole person makes him or her into an exceptional person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung

  104. Joseph Carli

    Thank you Peter for that recognition that I have nothing against higher education….and yes, I am fully aware of the Frankfurt School…my partner did her PhD. on post-modernism in her area of professionalism…and I did , vicariously , read many papers on the subject…And on the subject of higher education…of course I respect it, but as you have said, Peter..it is the way it is used that rubs me the wrong way…I wrote on my experience with a mature entry tertiary classics course..:

    https://freefall852.wordpress.com/2016/05/27/warming-the-seat-keeping-it-warm/

    I will add, that with only a couple of exceptions, I have posted a fair spread of comments stating my position and status on the subject as against some very ordinary replies…and I have to ask..: Just WHO is it who is not willing to discuss the topic?

  105. David Bruce

    Well done Joseph, you have stirred up a storm!

    It seems to be a generational issue as today I read a short poem online, it read:

    Hard times create strong men,
    Strong men create good times,
    Good times create weak men,
    Weak men create hard times.

    The poem struck me as I read it.

    The circle of life, what goes up, must come down.

    Unfortunately, in January 2019, I believe that we are in the “weak men create hard times” part of the cycle.

    https://stefanaarnio.com/2016/11/19/weak-men-create-hard-times-hard-times-create-strong-men/

    Our politicians have lost touch with their electorate and they wonder why we don’t trust them!

    One question I would love to ask of all the politicians in Parliament is “who are your customers?”

  106. Joseph Carli

    Thank you David..I hope to give a partial explanation to that conundrum later with a post reflecting on the generational shift that is now upon us…
    Watch this space……

  107. Trish Corry

    An enjoyable read Joe. I must have missed this one. Did you post it on Twitter? I thought the Lawson Poem was quite fitting.

    Middle class is not just about wealth right now. I get paid very well and I am University educated, but I was raised as a housing commission kid with a disabled parent in the second lowest socio Economics suburb in town and I could win the 100 million next week and I will still be that kid, because I always am that kid.

    Middle class is more an attitude. In politics it is more an attitude to solutions. I have written numerous articles about Stop Adani and the radical solution of shutting down coal too soon (middle class) vs the plight of the workers who will be left in poverty if nothing is put in its place (working class)

    It’s also the attitude of mocking those who aren’t in the “in group” who have a different style or opinion, who aren’t part of the clique. Because the middle class have never been the kid with the wrong uniform or no text books and in fights, the headmaster sure as hell will come out and side with the middle class kids, because there is a stigma to being poor that always shines a bad light. So poor kids will tend to withdraw and may become academic, library nerds, poetry lovers or they go the other way and beat the living hell out of the kids who passive aggressively mock them with Jibes, jeers and looks all day and some days it just gets to much.

    But don’t worry, the headmaster always knows whose side to take. So it just gives the middle class kids a false entitlement that they are right and superior and can push the poor kids around and tell them what’s good for them, so they can be better (just like them).

    Then the poor kids become big kids and the problem is that these experiences don’t bring enough of them into politics because by the time they are grown the rinse and repeat of the moulding of school years has them believe they won’t be heard or will be mocked anyway.

    Yes, working class kids know real instability of moonlight flits, sleeping rough, not having the appropriate clothes, hair, shoes. They know hunger. They know snickering by gangs of “proper kids” They know they have a path to over compensate and that path will be a good education and the other extreme will be crime. Working class kids know stress and real fear of helplessness and the fear of isolation and no solutions.

    The middle class kids don’t. They know judgement and how to turn on condescending behaviour. They know how to think of solutions for poor people and the marginalised with no lived experience or asking those who do. They just “know” their solution is the best for them. And make no bones about telling them so.

    Even when the working class achieve middle classdom, it’s almost like pheromones, The middle class will make sure they know one way or another that they aren’t welcome. Just like Turnbull’s knees under the table jibe at Shorten,

    Or “What about Prom Blane! What about Prom” for those who know pretty in pink.

    Working class know true humility. The middle class exude rights and expectations. Working class know the desperate need to gain ground inch by inch. The middle class shout that down because “I want it now” This is very evident in Labor vs Greens politics and very evident in political commentary.

    Working class people who become middle class income people, never forget. They will always be working class.

    It’s about lived experience and how that lived experience affects you, whether you will be working class until you die.

    For the record, I speak to Joe on occasion by telephone and he is one of the kindest, funniest and down to earth people I have ever met, and an amazing historian. The treatment of Joe in the comments section is terribly unfair and this thread and the defence of that treatment and the gaslighting that it’s all him.. when I see the innuendo between his lines…because it’s been going on a long time….well it just breaks my heart.

  108. Barry Thompson.

    Enjoyed that Trish. Thank you.

  109. Joseph Carli

    Kerry..: ” This is the real issue with Joseph’s writing: it lacks coherent argument.”….and I have not the least doubt, based on your own “fraustrated capabilities”, that you consult and refer to Wikipedia for all your cogent information…Because if you are trying to claim that a lack of direction in my article, or a confrontational attitude is fault enough to drive such as I off a blog site, then you could say much the same for any amount of complete Phd’s on any amount of subjects..I need not list some of the more obscure thesis’…you can google them…and if you are telling us that you come to a blog site to gather and glean intricate and informed information, then you have to be more of a fool that the one who goes to Wikipedia for their facts and figures….oops!!
    But hey!…you certainly SOUND like you know what you are talking about…………….even if you don’t.
    Now go press your pleats.

  110. Kaye Lee

    According to Wikipedia, condescension is “A form of incivility wherein one displays an attitude of patronizing superiority or disdain.”

    (scurries off to polish “gold taps” and “press some pleats”)

  111. Joseph Carli

    ” Kaye LeeJanuary 12, 2019 at 8:57 am Edit

    According to Wikipedia, condescension is. . . “…..and THERE is the flaw in the glass…that a certain class of society always needs to have their personal opinion “legitimised” by a recognised authority, or else they see themselves as a failure…It is why the ABC always introduces a guest with an arms length list of glitering prizes or qualifications…as if THAT cements the opinion as one of “proven quality and veritability”…when all it is is an up-dated version of the old Aussie cultural cringe.

    If there is but ONE thing I can do in this short period of time left to me, is to totally destroy this idea that reasoned debate can only come from one resourse, via one class and with one set of rules…and that set of rules is the one inculcated within academic circles most populated by one class of society…A set of rules that states all conclusions must be channeled down a lineal process of : Research, collate, seperate, cogent debate that resonates with a certain level of academic achievement, more collate until reasoned conclusion and then a middle-class umpire’s decision….

    THAT is not the way the lesser educated working class “talks an issue out” nor comes to it’s conclusion…The working class ‘feels’ it’s way using experience and emotion, it only attaches “so-called facts” if it cannot lucidly express its emotion on the subject…and the conclusion it comes to is legitimised by mob approval..and it is THAT what ‘urts the middle-classes so badly…that they cannot..in the end..control the mob action….

    And if I can contribute in the most tin-pot way possible to destroy the gormless and useless debating “quasi educated” style of arguement…then by the livin’ jaysus…I will do it!…because as I see these days of political discourse, when we ALL know just who the crooks are, WHO is gouging and ripping off us citizens and state, WHO did the treason that destroyed nation social and technical infrastructure , but we cannot for the effing life of us drag the bastards to some sort of star-chamber court and charge the bastards and try them to their back teeth, it is because the useless private-schooled middle-class that holds ALL the relevent position of authoritative office just can’t get a debate up to decide just who did and what law they have broken…OR they are already TOO corrupt to want to do so.
    Well F#CK ‘EM!….I tell you what…it makes me go all sentimental to dwell on it, but…Mao or Joe S would have made short work of them!

  112. Kaye Lee

    Lighten up Joe. It was an attempt at humour (well it made me chuckle anyway)

  113. Joseph Carli

    Kaye…I hate to say it, but …well…you don’t “do” humour…or at least you don’t do it well…it’s kinda like having Sweeney Todd say to the delivery boy come to pick up his fresh batch of pies..:
    ” I’ve marked the ones with curry in them “.
    In that he’s the only one that can “get” the joke.

  114. Kaye Lee

    Sorry. I have no idea what that means.

    We are all different Joe. Some people think I’m funny. Lots don’t. But it made me smile.

    At the risk of incurring your wrath, I would suggest that plenty of people like your tales but it is your comments where things get outta hand. You take things too personally and you react too aggressively. Relax. People disagree. They have different reading tastes, different opinions. Don’t attack them personally. Don’t feel personally attacked. We are all just here for a chat. If your contributions start a discussion you should be pleased, not threatened. Surely that is the reason we post here?

    (nervously fiddling with my pearls – I know, I know…not funny)

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