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Sitting astride the barbed wire fence

By 2353NM 

The human mind is a wonderful thing. We all have different interests, ideas and methods of doing what is needed to stay alive. We also have different beliefs. Some will tell you that the contrails left in the sky following the passage of aircraft are

a 24/7/365-day aerosol assault over our heads made of a toxic brew of poisonous heavy metals, chemicals, and other dangerous ingredients. None of this is ever reported by any mainstream media. The US Department of Defense (DOD) and military have been systematically blanketing all our skies with what are known as Chemtrails aka as Stratospheric Aerosol Geoengineering.

Time magazine took the opportunity of the upcoming 50th anniversary of the Moon Landing to print a list of their ‘top 10’ conspiracy theories including the Moon Landing itself, the Reptilian Elite (who apparently rule the world) and JFK’s Assassination being faked.

Really, you are the only person hurt if you happen to believe aliens abduct people and implant material internally, or any one of the hundreds of conspiracy theories that routinely go around the world. While it might give the rest of us a laugh, in the scheme of things most of these theories are pretty harmless. Unfortunately there are conspiracy theories that do affect others, which is where conspiracy theories can be very dangerous.

You may have seen on social media the story of an ‘anti-vaxxer’ American mother who posted that her 3-year old child was not vaccinated and asking how she could protect her child from a measles outbreak currently occurring in her area. The linked article carries some of the responses which vary from the obvious (get her child vaccinated), through lecturing to humorous; there are thousands more ‘helpful’ comments in the various places where the post has been shared across the internet.

You can argue the mum has the right to decide how her children grow up or equally argue the obvious lack of empathy, parenting skills and abilities demonstrated by the American mum (and other anti-vaxxers around the world) in allowing their children to suffer the unnecessary illness, potential long term ill-health or even loss of life caused by not doing anything to stop their children suffering a completely preventable disease. However, the actions of the anti-vaxxers remove our right to determine if we want to inflict the same danger on our children or grandchildren, children who may be too young or have a genuine medical reason why they can’t be vaccinated. They don’t have the right to do that. We discussed herd immunity and vaccination with a bit more detail last November. It’s pretty obvious that American mum is now questioning her life choices.

The ‘great’ climate change debate in Australia is similar to the debate over vaccinations. For better or worse, then Opposition Leader Abbott rolled PM Rudd’s ambitions for an emissions trading scheme which would firstly manage, then reduce the levels of carbon and other nasties that are emitted into the environment. It’s now history that Abbott crucified Gillard over her ‘carbon tax’ (which even Abbott’s Chief of Staff, Peta Credlin, has since admitted was a ‘political tactic’ rather than actual tax). The subsequent Coalition Government under three Prime Ministers Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison have effectively fiddled while Rome burnt with ever increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Abbott, a Health Minister in the Howard era would have argued for the continuation of vaccination programs targeted at children to trigger ‘herd immunity’. When he was Prime Minster he mandated, with ALP support, the ‘no jab, no play’ policy. Effectively if your child is not vaccinated, they will not be eligible for any child care rebates, which can cause difficulties in accessing childcare services in this country as well as lack of eligibility for Family Tax payments. Clearly Abbott understands the science of ‘herd immunity’ as he didn’t attempt to stop vaccination programs.

Abbott, who has now assisted in rolling Turnbull twice when some action on climate change looked like getting implemented is on the record as suggesting that even if Australia did reduce carbon emissions, our insignificant contribution of 1.3% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions really doesn’t make a difference. Apart from the OECD disagreeing with the claimCNN reports two of the World Health Organisation’s ‘top 10’ list of global health threats are air quality/climate change as well as ‘anti-vaxxers’.

It is illogical that Abbott argues that Australia demonstrates his ‘faith’ in ‘herd immunity’ caused by vaccinations but also promotes Australia not attempting to reduce or eliminate carbon emissions because our small contribution wouldn’t make a difference. Like American mum, Abbott has the right to his own opinion. He doesn’t have the right to stuff up the future for generations of Australians (as well as those in the Pacific Islands who will probably lose their homes, lifestyles and countries completely).

For a person who mandated the vaccinations for Australia’s young, who frequently travels around Australia by plane with a mobile phone in his pocket and probably has little understanding of how they work, Abbott is sitting on both sides of the barbed wire fence here. When it suits him, he trusts the science and technology; when he can see a political advantage, he rails against it. As American mum has already found out, sooner or later it gets mightily uncomfortable up there when the issue becomes personal.

What do you think?

This article was originally published on The Political Sword.

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35 comments

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  1. New England Cocky

    Uhm … I don’t believe it!!! An Abbott Apologist!!!! Must be a member of the IPA!!

  2. pierre wilkinson

    a bit unfair NEC, methinks the article places Abbott in the right light: astride a barbed wire fence. a true wind vane in fact, prepared to believe pretty much whatever he thinks will get him a vote or two – after all, HE brokered the marriage equality act and he will gladly tell you so, just as ProMo likes to remind people that HE brokered the Banking RC
    thank you 2353NM for your comparison of immunisation with climate science and the strangeness of accepting one whilst denying the other

  3. Aortic

    Doesn’t this apply to all pollies? Prepared to forego the public interest if it advances their position and by chance also their party.

  4. Matters Not

    Re:

    Clearly Abbott understands the science of ‘herd immunity’ as he didn’t attempt to stop vaccination programs.

    Now that statement is one hell of a logical leap of faith. Just because an individual (Minister or otherwise) doesn’t stop a particular behaviour can’t be logically taken as an understanding. In Abbott’s case, it might have been his mistake, Now a regret. And so on.

    (Never let a chance go by. Abbott should be shown no mercy.) Now if his parents had been anti- vaxxers … (Just jokin…)

    In my view, parents who are anti-vaxxers engage in child abuse – but usually out of ignorance. Not that is an excuse. Just an explanation.

  5. Kyran

    What do you think?
    Well, thank you for asking. But I’m at the point of trying not to. Not about these fools anyway. Every day is a reminder of the ancient and time honoured definition of stress.
    “Stress; The confusion created when one’s mind overrides the body’s basic desire to choke the living shit out of some asshole who desperately deserves it.”
    To commence any argument based on Tony Abbott’s words or deeds is simply too much of a stretch. “Abbott, a Health Minister in the Howard era” famously denied the introduction of RU 486, misquoting swathes of evidence and engineering his department’s advice. In a nutshell (being the most appropriate shell for this nut);
    “The AMA also says that the drug will now continue to be denied to Australian women for political reasons.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2005/s1507408.htm

    For any conversation to have value, we must now, sadly, excise any reference to politicians, such is the paucity of their contributions. How Dud-do ‘won’ worst ever health minister when Abbott was a contender is one of those conundrums best left to greater minds.
    “The ‘great’ climate change debate in Australia is similar to the debate over vaccinations.”
    Of that, there can be little doubt. But it is more of a case of learning how to disseminate information in the information age. There was an interesting article on SBS about this very subject and how easily information can be corrupted.

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/why-anti-vaccine-beliefs-and-ideas-spread-so-fast-on-the-internet

    What the article doesn’t underscore is that we currently have the most ignorant, uncouth and crass bunch of imbeciles venturing ill-informed decisions for their pathetic ‘belief’s’ being brought into the conversations as some sort of authority. The chaos and anarchy of the past week alone should cause journalists to better source their material.
    Vaccinations and climate change do have commonalities, in terms of science and reality versus fear and hysteria. It is about time these fools were simply ignored and we get on with the job.
    “The human mind is a wonderful thing.”
    It’s such a pity there are so few of them in Canberra.
    Lol. Bet you’re sorry you asked now!
    Thank you 2353NM and commenters. Take care

  6. Henry Rodrigues

    Isn’t this sad example of a thinking functioning human being, the same one who declared that a gas that he could not see, or touch or smell, very likely didn’t exist or if it did, could not cause that much trouble ?? The selection committee for aspiring applicants for Rhodes scholarship need to reassess their whole and vetting process. Abbot is a glaring product of their failure to recognize an idiot posing as a intelligent being.

  7. Kaye Lee

    Abbott initially elected not to approve the HPV vaccine Gardasil for subsidy by the PBS. This Australian innovation, which led, as predicted, to a dramatic decrease in those high-grade abnormalities that precede cervical cancer, was not treated by the then-health minister as a cost-effective preventive marvel for a very common virus. Instead he misread it as an indulgence. Actually, it would prevent 70% of all future cervical cancer and Abbott was either wilfully misreading medical reports on its effectiveness or being a moralising turd. Howard stepped in, after female MPs from all sides protested, and approved the subsidy.

  8. Kerry

    MN I beg to disagree: Anti Vaxxers are not ignorant nor are they child abusers. They merely don’t swallow the collective pill of trusting drug Companies and their attendant paid off doctors, journalists and politicians with our health and welfare.

    Since when is it a crime to question scientific methodology? All science is the implementation of theory. Herd immunity is a decent theory that seems to stand up but it actually does not require the whole herd to participate to be effective. There may be other theories that work even better and don’t require poisonous cocktails of drugs injected into young vulnerable humans.

    Unless you have had exposure to the dark side of the medical establishment where drugs are lobbied for and doctors are paid to prescribe some drugs over over other drugs that may not be in the best interests of the patient,(not just vaccines) then you do no have a right to comment on the decisions parents make on behalf of their children. Do you support the right of the many to decide if a woman can have an abortion as well?

    I have witnessed first hand the destructive power of pharmaceutical drugs when prescribed incorrectly,I have experienced specialists lying about death rates and side effects of drugs so that their funded programmes are not in jeopardy. These are people at the top of their profession in two big city hospitals.

    When you have seen this level of depravity that actually kills people with impunity you don’t just “trust” the people who make the drugs, or the doctors and legislators who peddle them with tax payers money.

    Can you guess why there are not many whistle blowers in this scenario? Because treatment for loved ones will be withdrawn. I’ve seen this happen.

    So please consider before vilifying anti-vaxxers or supporting legislation that makes them into criminals. it is anti democratic. You can’t suppress debate on one topic and expect to be heard on others. It is a slippery slope.

    For the record I vaccinated both children in the days before i knew anything. Seeing the results i would not make the same decision now.

  9. helvityni

    Does Abbott still matter…???

    I thought we had bigger problems to worry about right now….

    Ouch… (see title)

  10. Peter F

    Henry,

    I believe that in Abbott’s case “The selection committee for aspiring applicants for Rhodes scholarship” included one Dyson Heydon …….. Read ‘Game of Mates’ to see how this can work, even if it takes years.

  11. Carol Taylor

    Excellent analogy. Do climate change deniers have the right to inflict their beliefs on to the rest of us, causing untold damage, the same as anti-vaxxers?

    Abbott was the start of it all…pre-Trump, Trump-lite. Abbott was where it became obvious that the MSM was interested in image only, rather than substance. Abbott could do or say whatever he liked, yet the MSM would swoon whenever he donned Lycra. It was all a clever game according to the MSM and if you ‘win’ by cheating and lying, it’s not the way you play that matters it’s the cleverness of the attack. And if you bring the game into disrepute, so be it. I am hopeful that having seen our game trashed that the Australian Public is now wiser; sorrier, but wiser.

  12. Kaye Lee

    I watched Tony play football back in the day. He was mediocre at best and had no hesitation in breaking the rules if he thought he could get away with it. Who could forget his infamous line “sometimes you have to throw a punch to be best and fairest.”

    And that sums Tony up to a tee. He isn’t good enough to win on merit/skill. All he can do is close his eyes and throw some ill-directed haymakers.

  13. Kaye Lee

    Kerry,

    I must disagree with you. The choice to not have children vaccinated puts other children at risk. Whilst you say we don’t need everyone to be vaccinated to attain herd immunity, there are some who cannot be vaccinated due to allergies or other medical conditions. Just choosing not to vaccinate removes our ability to eradicate diseases.

    A study published in January last year found twenty-three children in New South Wales died preventable deaths over the past decade from diseases for which vaccines were available.

    A further 30 children died from diseases for which a vaccine was available, the researchers said, but they were not considered preventable at the time. 16 of these 30 cases could now be preventable through maternal vaccination during pregnancy, the researchers found.

    The majority of deaths occurred in babies under six months of age and were due to influenza, meningococcal disease and pneumococcal disease, while several deaths were due to whooping cough.

    In 1980, 2.6 million people died from measles and in 1990, 545,000 died; by 2014, global vaccination programs had reduced the number of deaths from measles to 73,000. Rates of disease and deaths, however, increased in 2017 due to a decrease in immunization.

    I agree there have been instances of doctors and pharmaceutical companies behaving unethically but immunisation is not one of them.

  14. andy56

    Tony Abbott has no positions on anything. If labor votes one way he will vote the other. Its all due to his theory of distinction.
    Nothing else matters to the dick. What ever it takes is his motto. Dont believe anything i say unless its clearly written down ( his own words).
    As a matter of public record, why was he kicked out of the monastery? The truth please, not the watered down version.
    He says he is a catholic but i suspect he’s a weekend worrior.

  15. andy56

    Kerry, you are the classic example for people to study. Why you dont trust science. When in actual fact , its a mathematical quandary your confusing. 1980 2.6million deaths, 2017, 73,000 due to vaccination for measles. Its a pretty potent arguement.

    You are also confusing scientific methodology with distrust.
    Scientists cant say where an electron will be at one instance in time, but the probablility of where it will be.
    Your saying that because they cant tell with absolute certainty that its wrong.
    All science has this dilemma. But its worked well for us in the past 10,000 yrs.
    Absolutism is a dangerously deranged twist on science that can only lead to self destruction.

  16. Kerry

    Andy,

    Thanks but i am not confused about science methodology

    Modern science has not been around for 10,000 years only a few hundred years: what has worked so well for humans over that longer period of time is gut instinct and common sense.

    its s funny thing how people use statistics. what if i were to tell you that up to 85 million people perished in WW2 and in wars since then a conservative estimate is 15 million people. The number of deaths from vaccinated diseases is by comparison minuscule but i don’t see people getting hysterical about war (some of us do ) or governments legislating against sending soldiers to war, or against the making and selling of weapons etc etc.

    Wouldn’t you think that if we really cared about human life we would make ending wars a priority, then hunger and poverty and oh fixing the environment so we can all keep breathing? Disease is really not the worst problem currently facing human beings., not even if you use statistics.

  17. Kerry

    Kaye Lee, its ok with me if you don’t agree with me 🙂

    As a mother i am 100% entitled to protect my children,As far as I know, i am not yet by law required to sacrifice my children for the greater good.

    If lies and trickery can happen with the HPV vaccination, (and I have no doubt this is the case as the science is not even there for this vaccine as there is no proven link between HPV and cancer) there is no reason it can’t and has not happened with the traditional vacs as well. I saw your comment elsewhere on the HPV vac, why would you think this is just an isolated case?

    I am not an anti vaxxer and I am not telling anyone not to vaccinate. my children are grown so its moot. but i support parents’ right to be, as i support all basic human rights.

    I think all arguments and questions should be encouraged in our society. That way everything is out in the open to be examined. I cannot see what is wrong with that. Vilifying those who question just makes them feel there is something being hidden.

    The fear mongering around vaccines is not executed any differently to “refugees on boats”, “children overboard” or “African gangs”, this is worth pondering. Just as it was for the HPV vaccine. So many girls lives have been ruined so some greedy SOB with a knighthood could get rich.

    I don’t think throwing numbers at my comments is very useful as we don’t have the numbers of children who are ill or dead from being given the vaccines. And how do you argue ethically for sacrificing a few to save the many? Isn’t that the same argument used for war?

    India has banned the Gates Foundation from its vaccination programmes due to significant numbers in illness and death of children. In a country where you would think the first priority for free vaccination would be serious diseases like polio these children were experimentally given the HPV vaccination way back in 2009.

    So instead of criticising parents for asking questions about vaccines why don’t we all listen to thier grievances instead?

    I think that listening is the first step any of us can take and remembering that we are talking about human beings case by case , not numbers.

  18. Matters Not

    Kerry at 9:34 am. There’s so much in your post so I won’t respond to the all – just what I consider to be the crucial assertions After all space is limited and there will be much better refutations elsewhere if you choose to look. Early in the piece you say:

    when is it a crime to question scientific methodology …

    To the best of my knowledge, it isn’t and hasn’t been for hundreds of years. (Religion, broadly defined, didn’t like science – preferring faith as a means of knowing and even put people to death because they used science instead of relying on religious faith. Way back then – rejecting faith and using science in its stead was indeed a crime ) Then again, I probably don’t move in the same circles as you do and maybe faith and not science is you preferred epistemological position. But what part of scientific methodology do you want to question? Is it the public testability aspect – you know the notion that anyone can run an experiment to test a theory or hypothesis? And so on. Please explain?

    Re:

    All science is the implementation of theory

    Well I wouldn’t put it exactly that way but I think I know what you are getting at – a theory is just a theory and all that and is therefore not really important. Fact is we can’t successfully operate in the world without an enormous range of theories. Without a theory of redness, for example, we can’t count red objects – can’t draw a distinction between square and round ones – and so on – unless we have the appropriate theory. So yes all scientific practice flows from a theory. So important – you shouldn’t leave home without one – and make sure you appreciate the Theory of Gravity when it comes to high buildings, bridges and other sharp drops. We don’t have to test all theories all the time.

    So while on the subject of theories.

    There may be other theories that work even better

    Indeed. That’s how science progress (or so most believe.) Science doesn’t give us truth and it never claims to – scientific findings are always tentative – the best we have for the moment. Scientists don’t deal with absolute truth – they leave that to the religious folk – with their reliance on faith as distinct from science. All for better theories – so fire away. Then we can test them.

    Perhaps one final point (for the moments). You say:

    destructive power of pharmaceutical drugs when prescribed incorrectly

    Yes when prescribed incorrectly they can be fatal – a bit like an automobile driven incorrectly – or a parachute folded …

    Have a nice day.

  19. DrakeN

    Logic, MN.

    Not an acceptable process for the likes of Kerry.

    There are, unfortunately lots of “Kerry” types who would rather give credence to traditional myths than to observable fact.

  20. Matters Not

    I think I see the root cause:

    as it was for the HPV vaccine. So many girls lives have been ruined

    Yes it’s the dreaded HPV vaccine that lies at the heart of the problem, A quick Google and:

    Since 2010, Gardasil has been administered to more than 170,000 secondary school girls across the country.

    However, many of the girls here have since suffered serious illnesses after vaccination, which their parents believe are linked.

    Some of the girls were physically active in sports but since taking it a lot of them are now listless and confined to bed.

    And it’s spread to Denmark as well:

    Opting out, however, has become a big problem in Denmark. Since 2014, HPV vaccination coverage among 12-year-old Danish girls has dropped dramatically from around 90 % in previous cohorts to below 40 % due to safety concerns about the vaccine.

    According to some newspaper reports – Gardasil has been dropped in Denmark and is the subject of legal actions in the US, Australia and Ireland.

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/lives-130-teenage-girls-ruined-7013697

    https://www.who.int/features/2018/hpv-vaccination-denmark/en/

    Nevertheless, newspapers like to have a legal backdoor – even if it’s not prominently displayed.

    Much of the debate about the HPV vaccine takes place on Facebook , and this is where many parents get their information.

    And:

    representing Sanofi Pasteur MSD, the manufacturer of Gardasil in Ireland, also pointed the Irish Mirror towards the European Medicine Agency’s Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee.

    In a statement last month Steve Lockhart, Vice President of Development at Sanofi Pasteur MSD, said the research “reaffirms the safety” of the vaccines.

    Yes SOME people have adverse reactions (and they can be very, very serious) but not to proceed on the basis of rare exceptions is fraught.

    Perhaps some are worried that their daughters will become promiscuous after the jab and a life in hell will result. Perhaps young women are entitled to protect themselves from such beliefs?

    Seems like Facebook is spreading crap. And perhaps AIMN is aiding and abetting? (Just jokin ….)

  21. Kaye Lee

    Kerry,

    I welcome your questions and don’t condemn you for asking them but I hope you have an open mind so I am not wasting my time.

    “there is no proven link between HPV and cancer”

    High-risk HPV types cause approximately 5% of all cancers worldwide. Virtually all cases of cervical cancer are caused by HPV

    https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/infectious-agents/hpv-fact-sheet

    “lies and trickery can happen with the HPV vaccination”

    After hundreds of millions of applications of the HPV vaccine it has a good safety record and causes no serious adverse effects

    https://insights.ovid.com/pubmed?pmid=26107345

    “India has banned the Gates Foundation from its vaccination programmes due to significant numbers in illness and death of children.”

    That is completely untrue.

    In a statement reported by India’s Economic Times , a spokesperson from the Ministry of Home Affairs said: “Certain observations have been made by the ministry on utilization of funds related to PHFI’s projects on tobacco, HIV/AIDS and its financial reports.

    “PHFI has submitted the requisite information and documents to the MHA on the observations raised in the notification and provided the needed clarifications.”

    A spokesperson for the PHFI suggested to the the New York TImes that the organization was being punished for its anti-tobacco stance.

    “The letter [sent by the government last week notifying that the PHFI had lost its licenses] says that we have utilized funds from tobacco and HIV projects for lobbying amongst media and parliamentarians,” the spokesperson said. “The Gates Foundation provides most of the financing for the tobacco and H.I.V. programs.”

    https://www.newsweek.com/foreign-funding-threatened-india-modi-crackdown-intensifies-587303

    If I was you, I would start checking the credibility of your sources.

  22. Kerry

    MN,

    you didn’t respond to what i replied to you about: that “parents who don’t vaccinate are guilty of child abuse”.

    The science of vaccination is not proven. It appears to work in practice but we have no way of knowing whether we would have arrived at exactly this place in terms of disease had we not done anything and let nature work it out.

    However we can absolutely say that people do suffer and die from vaccinations.

    My point is if there was an open debate and open scientific enquiry we would be we looking for safer ways to vaccinate that don’t hurt anybody.

    Instead Drug companies are lobbying and suppressing debate all the while charging countries (taxpayers) mega trillions of dollars annually for vaccines that are not safe for everyone. Only recently has mercury in the form of Thimerosal, been removed from some vaccines including those given to very young children.

    Other toxic ingredients in vaccines include:
    Animal organs and other products
    Aluminium
    Formaldehyde
    acetone
    and a very long list of ingredients that no body would want injected directly into their tissues, let alone a tiny baby.

    Only one type of flu vaccine is made here in Australia, the rest are made in the US or Europe so we have no control over the quality or safety of vaccines we give to our children. We simply take their word for it.

    These are countries that are currently dealing with lawsuits against Monsanto for roundup toxicity: the pesticide that was supposed to be safe enough to drink! Bayer who now own Monsanto also make pharmaceuticals …can you see the dots joining up now?

    I always trust my toxic pesticide companies to make my vaccines- don’t you?

    Judging and blaming parents for simply asking questions and wanting to keep their children safe is not helpful.

    I know this is sort of off topic but the article used the analogy and a lot of very questionable data citations to back it up,so I probably should have been challenging the author, but I didn’t want to give Tony Abbot any of my writing time.

    So here we are 🙂

  23. Kaye Lee

    Kerry,

    Mercury and aluminium and many other elements are present in all of us already. As with anything, dosage is the crucial element.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_human_body#cite_note-bare_url-5

    Thiomersal’s use as a vaccine preservative was phased out because of popular misconceptions rather than scientific evidence of harm. Since 1999, the number of thiomersal-containing vaccines used worldwide is decreasing year by year, while the prevalence of ASDs cases is rising. There are no contraindications to the use of vaccines with thiomersal in infants, children and non-pregnant women. The risk of serious complications associated with the development of diseases in unvaccinated individuals far outweighs the potential risk of adverse consequences associated with immunization with thiomersal-containing vaccines.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25862449

  24. Matters Not

    Kerry – I didn’t respond to all that you wrote and I explained that. Nevertheless I will now respond to:

    The science of vaccination is not proven.

    I believe it is and that belief is the basis of much modern medicine. As for:

    appears to work in practice but we have no way of knowing whether we would have arrived at exactly this place in terms of disease had we not done anything and let nature work it out.

    Yes we have no way of knowing – but only if you rely on absolutes. You see we can’t be absolutely sure that the sun will rise in the morrow but the overwhelming majority of people (me included) proceed on the understanding that it will. What about you? There is a mountain of evidence that standing by and letting nature work it out is barbaric – particularly when we know (from experience) that intervention does make a difference. (By the way are you suggesting that Nature here is another word for some sort of God?)

    As to your first point – now repeated.

    parents who don’t vaccinate are guilty of child abuse

    Seems to me that parents have a duty of care and most parents accept that. They don’t let young children play on the road, swim in crocodile infested waters, stick scissors in power points and so on. That duty of care can be both positive and negative. Things they allow (even demand) and things they don’t allow (forbid.)

    Parents have a duty of care when it comes to a child’s mental and physical health. Seems to me that a child’s physical health depends on protection against diseases and the like. That’s where vaccination(s) enter the picture. Not vaccinating is the equivalent of not protecting. It’s the equivalent of not exercising your duty of care. It’s the equivalent of standing by and allowing abuse to occur Abuse by omission. Guilt by omission. Abuse by failing to act.

  25. Peter F

    Kerry, I am old enough to remember Polio. We blindly followed the instructions to have our series of injections. Just by coincidence, the outbreak ceased, as ‘experts’ had hoped.

    I understand that we have not reached perfection yet, but I am prepared to accept that vaccination has benefits for society.

  26. DrakeN

    I too remember schoolmates with polio; I also remember children blinded by measles; babies damaged by rubella (German Measles) in their mothers; infertility in young men as a result contracting mumps during puberty, as well as the trauma of the agonising and debilitating pain during the period of the infection’s incubation; young people permanently scarred by smallpox, their youthful beauty inflamed for ever; the list goes on…

  27. andy56

    Look, how do you tell somebody who can open their mouth that their logic is a failure? People nowadays seem to have this idea that they know better than scientists. I can only think of a dozen or so scientific stuff ups in the last 20yrs. How does that compare with the millions of bits of data that have been analysed.?

    Science and theory is not you suite of strengths Kerry. Data is collected and a theory is developed to match the data. Then the theory is tested. Its not a theory in a vacuum as you so assert. If the theory doesnt match the data, its modified or tossed. No theory is ever accepted if it doesnt match the data.

  28. king1394

    In Kerry’s defence, I suggest people should read the insert that is supplied with the vaccine and think about what is written on that document. Of course, a lot of people never see that piece of paper, let alone read it.

    I also think that we in Australia need to be aware that various countries differ in their vaccine schedules and that ours is on the high side in the number of vaccines given to babies. There is nothing wrong in questioning or being concerned about the combinations of vaccines either. No one seems to be able to say why it is quite difficult to arrange to have vaccines spread out over a longer term.

    Finally, I wonder how many people here criticising ‘anti-vaxxers’ have their ‘flu’ jab each year? And their tetanus shots up to date?

  29. Peter F

    andy … Spot on, relatively speaking.

  30. Kaye Lee

    king1394,

    Those inserts are obliged to list any possible adverse reactions regardless of how rare they may be. My concern is the disinformation that Kerry is spreading.

    She says there is no proven connection between HPV and cancer. That is wrong.

    She implies a link between vaccination and autism which was a scam perpetrated by one man who was paid by lawyers for some people who wanted to sue the drug company. His paper had been completely discredited.

    She said India has banned the Gates Foundation due to illness from vaccines. That is completely false.

    She said we don’t have the numbers of children who are ill or dead from being given the vaccines but that is also wrong. We have a database of Adverse Event Following Immunisation.

    With so many incorrect statements, it is very hard to accept what Kerry is saying.

  31. 2353NM

    Kerry.

    Yes anti-vaxxers are being criticised in the article as being no better than Abbott (and by inference Trump and the others who practice the politics of hate and division). How do I know, i wrote it.

    The facts are that a number of illnesses are first identified in a person about the same time that immunisations are given. Its not cause and effect.

    I have read the literature from the anti-vaxxers and it is like a ‘policy’ speech from Donald Trump – full of logical holes so large you could drive a coal train through them but with an innate belief that if you repeat something often enough to a small group of hangers on they will believe the unbelievable.

    Science is never settled, scientific ‘fact’ is the best explanation of a set of circumstances until a better explanation is developed AND PEER REVIEWED. The problem with the anti-vaxxers ‘demi-God’ Wakefield’s ‘bible’ of claims is that when it was PEER REVIEWED he lost his job and licence to practice in the UK because he faked it.

  32. Josephus

    Excellent discussion.
    I remember long ago the suffering of my children when they had mumps and measles, as no vaccinations existed then. I remember too my classmate whose legs were in irons; at least my children had access to anti polio vaccines, and TB immunisation too.
    Leaving Nature or God to decide? That was the argument used to discredit Dr Jenner, in the 1700s. If we were to do that today then half of us would be dead by adulthood. Having said that, it is likely ‘nature’ will assert itself in the end, when the water runs out or floods, forests desertify, crops cook, insects and marine life die out and there is no more pollination.
    PS Would people please not link ignorance and being old? Under educated, for sure.

  33. kerry

    Well there are an awful lot of assumptions flying around just because i stood up for parents rights to protect their own children.

    When i was a kid having measles was normal and nobody died from it. Why do we need a vaccine for measles? or Chickenpox? There is nothing wrong with getting sick and building up an immunity.

    Nowhere have I said that we should not vaccinate so all of you just back off and stop making assumptions and judgments that are not true!

    I am asking questions people, isn’t that what we are all supposed to do so our brains don’t run to mush and we all end up in Orwellian 1984?

    Fact: Anti vaxxers exist, they are not stupid, uninformed or child abusers, so get used to it! last time I looked we live in a democracy.

    For the record Kaye I did not say that Vaccines cause Autism you made that up. I am not even part of the anti vaxxer movement, I just happen to understand why they exist. So stop drawing false conclusions. Perhaps saying that India banned the Gates Foundation was a bit of an exaggeration – am I the first here to do that? Maybe that is partially my wishful thinking as I don’t trust them based on their track record. However they definitely had their funding cut in India and there is a lot more to the story i am certain.

    Here is the article on India and The Gates foundation and there are many more: India of course has left and right wing press, you chose to quote a pro government right wing paper the equivalent of the Australian.

    It is so hypocritical to be so condescending and judgy about non scientific and non mainstream sources for my information when we are all here on a non mainstream news and opinion site! Science is just a tool its not God!

    https://newspunch.com/india-bill-gates-vaccine/

    or this:

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/centre-shuts-gate-on-bill-melinda-gates-foundation/articleshow/57028697.cms

    FYI: The NY Times are about as honest as the Murdoch press and every bit as much of a tool for propaganda.

    You will find a lot of claims that HPV causes cervical cancer but if you drill down to the actual studies you will find that they are hypotheses that clinical trials and research have backed up. There is no 100% proof just an assumed causation. Which I admit could be true or it could be wrong. And I stand my ground here that drug companies who fund their own trials are be trusted only with great scrutiny and caution. This is not what happened in the case of Gardasil, it was sped into the health system here with the help of John Howard and achieved a similar speedy approval process in the US.

    If there is a real causation, giving every young teenage girl another vaccine should be a very long term consideration after long term testing and other hypotheses and alternative treatments should be thoroughly investigated.

    Girls all over the world are being hurt or killed by this vaccine whether any of you choose to acknowledge it or not. worse than that there are alarming statistics coming out after some years that the vaccine can cause permanent damage to reproductive systems. Where are those long term studies that prove the vaccine is safe? They don’t exist that’s where. You will not read these stories in the Australian the SMH or Pub Med.

    Anyway so far this feels like more of a witch hunt than a conversation so I am going to leave it there. I’m tired.

    2353NM: I just don’t know what to say to you as it seems you only responded so you could work in a comment about Donald Trump who is about as relevant here as his Mexican Wall.

    Good night all.

  34. Matters Not

    Kerry – apparently an excellent job in reassuring yourself. Clearly not troubled by evidence.

  35. Kerry

    An addition to the links on HPV:

    https://www.healio.com/infectious-disease/stds/news/print/infectious-disease-news/%7Baf692634-fd8f-4598-926d-1847b0ea5e5f%7D/many-hpv-infections-may-clear-quickly-without-treatment

    To Andy and Peter: You are naive about the combination of science and money. what could possibly go wrong? Right?

    Remember when Big Tobacco swore that cigarettes didn’t cause cancer and they had all the studies to back it up?
    Or that Roundup doesn’t cause Cancer: they had lots of Peer Reviewed scientific research too.
    Or Asbestos …or maybe one day Vaccines!!!!

    You are so busy being smug that you are completely missing the point.

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