Refugee advocate slams Dutton’s deadline
Media Release
Refugee Action Coalition Sydney Coordinator Ian Rintoul today said of Dutton’s asylum seeker processing deadline:
“It is a completely arbitrary deadline and a cruel hoax on people who the Government has left in limbo for years.
“These people have been denied legal help by this government, said Mr Rintoul. They have systemically denied them the possibility of making an application.
“To suggest that they are unreasonably consuming taxpayers dollars is simply vicious.
“The government could save billions in taxpayers dollars by closing offshore detention.”
Mr Rintoul was visiting Canberra to attend the ARAN 2017 conference.
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58 comments
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Jennifer Meyer-Smith -
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john ocallaghan -
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Cara Clark -
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Terry2 -
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Michael Taylor -
Michael Taylor -
Kaye Lee -
Johno -
Helen Bates -
Kaye Lee -
Matters Not -
Terry2 -
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Michael Taylor -
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corvus boreus -
Helen Bates -
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Peter F
Return to home pageMr Rintoul is voicing what all fair-minded, compassionate advocates and activists for refugees think.
More power to the Refugee Action Coalition!
It is a shame that Mr Dutton’s deadline, for himself, isn’t up!
I am sure that this deadline by Dutton will be popular in the polls.
I detest this man and I cannot believe how people can support him.
Dirty Dutton is once again appealing to the lowest commom denominator in our society,but i am optimistic that the views of many Australians has changed, and Duttons views and that of his racist supporters will soon be a thing of the past!
Hear, hear john ocallaghan
As sure as the moaners here have a lock on their front doors… the majority of Australians wish to retain a proper immigration system. They do not want another influx of chancers, the likes of which we saw in 2008-2013 (50,000 of them costing us a fortune forever more), circumventing our immigration system and claiming “asylum”. It’s well known that many have returned to their countries of origin for lovely holidays once they have secured their place on the Centrelink gravy train. The same countries that they supposedly fled in fear of their lives. It’s a joke, and the joke is over.
Those that believe that “there is no such thing as an illegal immigrant” should not be in charge of our immigration system – or in government, for that matter.
Dutton & Hanson, a disgusting pair of people from Queensland, is there something wrong with their drinking water, or is the nastiness in their genes….
Who votes for these people…
havanaliedown,
kindly please answer Helvi’s reasonable question @ 8.16pm.
GetUp are running a petition to stop Dutton’s disgraceful proposal: https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/refugees/in-australia/sign-the-petition?t=wLxVQue0Y
JMS, I doubt that these rhetorical questions were being asked of me in particular, but I’ll hazard a response out of courtesy:
1. “is there something wrong with their drinking water“ – I have not detected anything wrong with their drinking water
2. “Who votes for these people” – your Liberal friends in Bowral that you no doubt kiss up to then regularly backstab on these pages. Oh and many, many more vote for them.
But what makes you laugh these Fascist Arseholes go to Church each Sunday. The WA state Liberal Party has been taken over by one of these new warehouse churches that are more about putting on a production on Sunday and harvesting the $’s
talk about abusing taxpayers dollars…
… sacking Dutton would save heaps
Personally, I quake at the thought of having to confront the very people who would support Dutton.
It’s bad enough trying to maintain a resistance in McMillan but deep redneck territory that would vote Dutton again and again must be very scary for grassroots people like us to contest.
You have my respect, Dutton opponent constituents.
For the record, the most detestable MP in modern times is Peter Dutton. He’s a cancer on our humanity and our political system.
Dutton’s comments and the suggestion that these people are fake refugees and are bludging on the Australian taxpayer are comments that really have nothing to do with these asylum seekers, it’s all about politics and attacking the Labour Party.
A simple statement saying that all those on temporary protection visas will need to apply for permanent visas by a given date would have been sufficient.
I have just spent forty minutes ploughing through the Department of Immigration & Border Protection website as if I were an asylum seeker wanting to put an application in and I have to say that I am confused as I got into a loop and couldn’t even find the forms to complete. If I were an asylum seeker with limited English I would be entirely lost.
What Dutton needs to be saying is how he and his Department are providing assistance for asylum seekers to ease them through this bureaucratic nightmare.
A simple message to Peter Dutton, get off your hobby-horse and do something positive to help these people and cut out the insulting and emotive rhetoric.
Terry2…. Well said.
Terry2,
that would mean Dutton would have to engage his brain and do that thing called work. He doesn’t like either activity.
“do that thing called work” – his “work” is not to facilitate those that wish to circumvent our immigration system.
You seem to be expecting Peter Dutton to reshape our immigration system into no system at all. Thanks for your advice. Don’t call us, we’ll call you!
Dutton trades on whipping vulnerable people.
It’s easy to kick people when they’re down. It’s easy to demonise them instead of taking a responsible approach.
Clearly that would not suit his fascist agenda.
What is wrong with Dutton giving them till October.Remember there are 7500 ILLEGALS here now so he is just saying put up or shut up and if you can’t prove it then piss off.ILLEGAL means they are breaking the law so personally I would ship them all out as Australia has a big enough population for the driest continent .We could do a reverse 10 pound pom and send them on their way.
Also could snyone tell me if the rich ones who spend 20s of thousands on people smugglers have to pay for their food medical treatment and board and lodgings. They should !
Helen, you mentioned earlier that you are likely to vote for Pauline Hanson at the next election.
I really think you should, as you’re the type of person she’s trying to appeal to.
havanaliedown said:
I have two questions:
1. Well known to who?
2. Do you honestly believe that Centrelink pay enough money to recipients that they can afford overseas holidays?
If you have a temporary protection visa you cannot leave and return to Australia without permission and you cannot sponsor family members to come and live with you in Australia. Your case will be reassessed every three years at which time you may be sent back where you came from.
Some asylum seekers who are living in the community may be able to access the Asylum Seeker Assistance Scheme (ASAS) or the Community Assistance Support Program (CAS). Both programs are funded by the Immigration Department and administered through the Red Cross.
While there are some exemptions, most asylum seekers have a number of requirements to meet before being able to access an ASAS or CAS payment, such as having to have been waiting for a protection visa decision for at least six months. The maximum amount of an ASAS or CAS allowance is always set at 89% of the Centrelink NewStart benefit.
If you are receiving unemployment benefits they will cease on departure unless you satisfy the following:
Newstart Allowance may be paid outside Australia for a negotiated period of up to 6 weeks for the following approved reasons:
attending an acute family crisis. For example, to visit a family member who is critically ill
humanitarian reasons. For example, to adopt a child or attend custody proceedings, or
receiving eligible medical treatment that is not available in Australia
They used to say Australia is girt by sea, now we seem to be girt by a ring of steel and a thug called Dutton.
Michael Taylor thanks I take that as a compliment as would all my friends who intend to do likewise
Helen, could you tell me what solutions you think Pauline Hanson is offering? Which policies of hers have your support and why?
Yes if you engage in an ‘illegal’ act then you are charged and if found guilty then subject to a penalty which may include a prison term. Helen Bates, how many of your so-called ‘illegals’ have been charged with breaking the law? If the answer is none (as I suspect is the case) – can you explain why? Is it the fault of the police? Are they not doing their job? After all you claim they are breaking the law.
I await your response.
Maybe, just maybe, they are not ‘illegals’ after all? And you are speaking an untruth. Just like Dutton is.
Gee you’re easily sucked in.
No doubt you have heard the news that Hanson and Ashby discussed how to engage in illegal acts.
And they did it on tape. Hilarious.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-22/one-nation-ashby-denies-plan-to-cash-in-on-election-materials/8546160
Pauline Hanson stood up in the Senate recently to make a contribution to the debate. Clearly she was not familiar with the subject matter and kept on wandering off-point. She was ill prepared and as soon as she had finished her so called contribution, she left the Chamber.
For the life of me I cannot understand why she bothered to stand up other than to record her brief presence in the Senate Chamber.
Be very careful of these One Nation dead-beats, they’re just in it for the money as far as I can see.
Just in case the link is not read:
Yes – vote for One Nation. They have a great (but illegal) business model. Hanson’s been doing it for years. While the returns vary from election to election she rakes in the dollars and the ‘dumbos’ don’t even realise. Word has it she will float on the ASX.
If she survives another prison term.
Can’t wait for the conspiracy charges to be pressed. They might include her voters who aid and assist her in illegal undertakings. LOL
So, can someone please explain to me what the Right Honourable Peter Dutton’s concern was?
The math’s bit didn’t seem to add up. Is he concerned that 7,500 people are receiving $33,333 per annum? A budgetary catastrophe, totalling $250mill. If that is catastrophic, how does it compare with his preferred model of spending $400k per person per annum imprisoned in our Gulag’s? Here’s a bit of math’s for you. If we bring all of those in our Gulag’s over here and pay them $33,333 each, we are actually saving a little bit. The savings from bringing one of them here wipes out the entire $250mill.
That’s before we eradicate the costs of running the Gulag’s. At least $1bill of which, Dutton was unconcerned about. Well, not to the point of accounting for it.
Maybe he’s concerned about the legality? The ‘Fast Track’ process was designed to remove any access to legal redress. His removal of legal remedy for those effected by his illegal edicts surely confirms he has no concern for legality?
Maybe it’s the morality? Yeah, my bad. It wasn’t even worth a try.
Cara Clark’s reference to the Getup petition is probably closer to the truth. Getup were the one’s targeting Dutton’s seat at the last election. He’s now pandering to the PHON’y vote. How can he possibly become PM if he cannot retain his seat? It’s not like he’s little johnnie. The only PM who lost his seat and retained his influence.
For what it’s worth, that Getup petition seems to be getting some attention. For what it’s worth, sites such as RAC and ASRC are also getting a bit of heat.
I’m looking on the bright side. We must have reached the bottom by now.
Thank you RAC, AIMN and commenters. Take care
.For three years every arrival was proclaimed on front page news From the blogs of the enthusiastic election-now! right, from newspapers of like mind. In the recent federal campaign, Tony Abbott even gave his support to a touring billboard that counted down every new boat arrival.
The political line was simple and eager: the then government had lost control of our borders, it was unable to secure the perimeter…………… In opposition every boat was numbered and paraded for full political effect. In government the shutters come down………(If thats not ruling the media than what is).
..BUT it was OK to put lives at risk because they were in opposition…… Logically that is precisely what Messrs Morrison and Abbott have spent the past three years in opposition doing: spreading information for political purpose that by their own standards of “shipping news” encouraged the smugglers and thus put the lives of asylum seekers in terrible jeopardy.
Those who supported an ‘open borders’ approach to asylum seekers in 2001 did so mainly for humanitarian reasons, and also claimed that the Howard Government’s hardline policies were damaging Australia’s reputation overseas…and what has Abbott/Turnbull governments done?……And now if Labor even start to look “soft” on boat people they’re branded as aiding the terrorist ……….The Howard Government rejected the findings and recommendations of the report and in June 2004 reaffirmed its commitment to the policy of mandatory detention, including that of children ……….The then Immigration Minister, Senator Vanstone, stated that ‘to release all children from detention in Australia would be to send a message to people smugglers that if they carry children on dangerous boats, parents and children will be released into the community very quickly’.
.And remember, 92% of boat people since 2009 have been found to be genuine refugees, as assessed against the regulations set out in our Migration Act…….more at AIMN.https://theaimn.com/facts-boat-people-government-media-lying/
While the Australian government states that it has stopped boats coming to Australia, a recent report from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) found that in 2014 more people than ever took to the seas in search of asylum – an estimated 350,000 people………(After waves of bombings from western countries)
The UNHCR and other agencies estimate that last year 2015 more than 4000 individuals, including hundreds of children, did not survive these journeys in 2014.
Approximate Australian dollars spent on offshore detention centres on Manus Island and Nauru In 2013-2014, the centres cost $1.2 billion. Source: Australian Parliamentary Library.
Helen, the irony is delicious.
By way of correction,
“The savings from bringing one of them here wipes out the entire $250mill.”
My bad. Math’s was never my strong point.
We need to bring 63 of ‘them’ ‘here’ to recoup the $250mill. Otherwise, all good.
Jim, we no longer have arrivals. We have the ring of steel. Three boats turned back this year. Clearly, people smuggling is no longer a problem, let alone a business model. Except in the nearly new Prime Minister’s mind.
If you wish to see inside his mind, best of wishes. Bring a microscope.
If you want to see inside his heart, best of wishes. Bring a shovel. It has to be buried somewhere.
Apologies for the math’s. Take care
Michael Taylor you jnow, my sister lives in Peter Duttons electorate and they were a bit concerned he might lose at the last election then the Getip mob and the Greens turned up hurling abuse at the locals and he won.Matters Nut. illegal what bit of that don’t you get even with all your posturing and gum flapping? Illegal,7500 of them bye bye hope they enjoy the flight better than the smugglers boats and when they get home they can tell all about the oceanside holiday they had on the taxpayers of Australia
If you were concerned he was going to lose his seat at the last election, I can only imagine your concern at the next one. It will be horrible for you.
I am always very dubious about someone who purports to know how “all my friends” are going to vote at an election that could be two years away. Do you do this group think about everything? Policies not important? I note you totally ignored my invitation to explain why you supported Hanson.
Methinks one could scratch Helen and watch the racism flow.
Just for the record, again, it is not illegal to seek asylum. It is not illegal to arrive without papers. Australia agreed to be part of the refugee convention. What IS illegal is indefinitely incarcerating innocent people as the PNG courts recently showed.
Helen Bates,
You seem rather disinterested/unconcerned by the fact that Pauline’s chief adviser, James Ashby, is yet again a ‘person of interest’ to law enforcement authorities after he was caught on tape explicitly suggesting that One Nation should engage in systematic electoral fraud (what Ashby proposed is not just ‘illegal’, but constitutes a serious criminal offense).
Do you not understand the ramifications, or do you simply not care?
Michael Taylor He will win again because the same lot of misfits from down south will arrive to tell the locals that they know better and do the abuse thing again and will aid in Peters re election.You were’nt amongst the rabble were you?As for James Ashby I couldn’t care less if they lock him up because One Nation have good candidates and as far as I know Ashby isn’t one of them and again to use the line of the other commenters, you should be giving him the benefit of the doubt until guilt is proven,I recollect over the years people were always assuming he would go to gaol but nada.Pauline has been through all the grubby attempts to silence her including Abbott framing her but the people see through that spin and it just makes the support stronger knowing that the other Parties are so scared of what she has to say they try and frame her and get her away from their incestuous little playpen
“you should be giving him the benefit of the doubt until guilt is proven”
It’s on tape. He has admitted he proposed the idea. He is trying to deflect it by saying the tape was made without his consent. He can’t deny that he quite literally and unequivocally proposed electoral fraud. And he is Hanson’s chief of staff. The long time One Nation treasurer was sacked by Pauline who inserted her brother-in-law into the job. Can’t have anyone outside the family looking at the finances now can we.
Another comment from Helen that says nothing about policies. It seems she just likes lying bastards regardless.
CB, KL, and MT, give Helen a break. She’s now red faced, embarrassed, if not shamed. Her political ‘world view; is collapsing around her. Her credibility is in ruins. She ‘bet the rent’ only to find the game was rigged. Her ‘friends’ are in stitches. Talking behind her back. Giggling and all that. Deathly silence when she arrives. LOL.
Offer pity or sympathy. She needs it at this time.
Helen Bates is a nasty little boy apparatchik supposedly working for Hanson but equally possibly working for Duddon and Co.
Nobody else could be that stupid!
Suddenly and after all this time this has become an urgent issue.
How many of the 7,500 are receiving benefits and how many are actually employed and paying taxes or is this just another “children overboard” dog-whistle I hear?
There’s no data, just a vague accusation, a deliberate attempt to scapegoat a large number of people and hopefully attract One Nation voters back into the welcoming arms of the Liberal Party.
Also, things aren’t going so great for them poll-wise after the latest budget so they really need a new narrative to keep the media occupied and the public fearful and angry.
Also it’s nice to see Ashby back in the spotlight. I wonder how long it will be before the media reveal that his alleged harrassment from Slipper happened BEFORE he was working for him and while he was still haggling for that job?
James Ashby has always been a thoroughly nasty piece of work and the notion that the poor little petal was being harrassed is utterly ludicrous.
In 2002, Mr Ashby resigned from Newcastle radio station NX-FM and pleaded guilty to making abusive calls to a drivetime host from a rival station.
Mr Ashby, who had been working as a DJ, was convicted of using a carriage service in an offensive manner, fined $2000 and given a three-year bond.
DJ Paul Fidler said the calls “freaked me out”.
“He knew stuff about me; my real name, where I lived, that I was riding a bike to work,” Mr Fidler said.
While on air in 2002 he had three calls from Mr Ashby, posing as a mystery caller.
When Mr Morrison told the caller he was being taped, court documents reveal Mr Ashby said: “Yeah, go for it you f … . . g psychopath. Next time I see you riding on your f … . . g bike I’ll hit you, you idiot, all over the sloppy road, you dumb p … k. F. . k it, if I was your mother, I would have drowned you at birth.”
Pauline seems to like scammers. Birds of a feather and all that.
All jokes aside. PHON is a political force in Queensland and of some magnitude. Thus there will be an ‘alliance’ between the LNP and the ALP to legally pursue Hanson and Ashby’s apparent ‘conspiracy’. And I suspect they will have a willing servant in the Police Commissioner, who is always ‘prim and proper’. A man of integrity Yes appointed by Labor but retained by the LNP and now once again serving under A labor Government. He will be fearless.
Currently, Ashby is coming across as the ‘baddie’. Hanson, being as cunning as a shith@se rat, will be contemplating whether she should unload him. Whether his time has come.
All good (surviving) politicians know that the first thing you do is build a ‘back door’ – a means to escape when the going gets too tough. Maybe, Jimmy Ashby, is Pauline’s back door? You know throw Ashby to the pursuing ‘wolves’? If you read above, Helen Bates provides the odd clue as to future possibilities.
Look above, and read:
Perhaps the fact that not one of these supposed ‘illegals’ has ever been prosecuted? Not a conviction on the historical record! That’s the bit I get. What about you?
Putting that nonsense aside. Why is it that so many citizens have no understanding of the ‘democratic’, ‘rule of law/legal” world in which they live? And while it’s not confined to Queensland. in particular its rural locations, I am perplexed.
Plato’s Republic and the underlying assumptions become more attractive day by day. (Just jokin .. )
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/republic/section6.rhtml
Matters Not,
I don’t think Hanson will be able to throw Ashby to the wolves. From his own track record, Ashby will be looking after his own interests and if it come to that, would probably use the Nuremburg (“just following orders”) defence and try to put it all back onto Hanson.
The truth is likely that they both colluded.
George Brandis used his personal Victorian Police Commissioner friend to send detectives to NSW to publicly arrest and humiliate Craig Thomson, deliberately timed to happen during (heavily botoxed) Abbott’s press conference for maximum political effect.
If they want to, the Government can get to Hanson and Ashby somehow – but only when the timing is right for their own interests.
It’s quite a transparent democracy we have at work here.
Helvityni, I think you will find the people of Dickson, Dutton’s seat, are rather like the people everywhere. Most who vote for the incumbent had their hand shaken by him at an event in the electorate and he seemed like a nice guy. BUT it has previously been quite a swinging seat and the last member was Cheryl Kernot who was elected as an Australian Democrat, but who moved to the ALP.
At the 2016 election there was a swing against him of more than 5%, unfortunately another 2% was needed.
And Helen Bates: what a good name for a troll. He/She is here to bait us and to divert us from serious discussion
The One Nation defence is that the matter was raised but knocked on the head in the meeting!
Let’s ignore for a moment that the ABC have a recording of later in the matter where it’s far from clear that the idea was rejected…
If you were recorded planning a bank robbery, I don’t think that many people would regard it as reasonable to say that there’s no problem because the idea was rejected.
As for a terrorist attack…
king1394, yes Dickson is a ‘swinging seat but despite a concentrated effort at the last election Dutton hung on. As did Luke Howarth in the neighbouring seat of Petrie which was against all the odds. GetUp really put some effort into Dickson and therefore the swing but I hoped I could wave him goodbye. His ALP opponent, Linda Lavarch, is the ex wife of the first member.
Dutton himself tried to switch seats – a safe one on the Gold Coast but the local libs revolted and he was forced to remain.
Just for the record Cheryl Kernot was elected to the Senate as a Democrat but when she ran for Dickson she was already an ALP member. (And a very lazy one. Campaigning ‘on the ground’ was beneath her.) The seat was only created in 1992 so it doesn’t have an extensive history. Hopefully, next time.
A quick look at Pauline Hanson’s facebook page is frightening.
Jesse Walker: “I feel ripped off as a tax payer! Peter you did the right thing. Shame of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.
Thankyou One Nation for pointing out another stupid decision made by people who should know better.”
Pauline Hanson’s Please Explain: “You’re right Jesse, we’re all feeling ripped off. One of my staff just spoke with the Ministers office and they’ve said the constitution gets in the way of being able to remove these people from the country. I’ve asked for a copy of the transcripts in the tribunals decision. We’ll see if I can get a copy?”
So Pauline wants to overrule the constitution and the courts because she knows best!
Pauline Hanson’s Please Explain: “How do you feel about your local council segregating areas of your local swimming pool for Muslim swimmers? 2% of Australia’s population don’t want to integrate and are having increased financial impacts on our Councils, State and Federal budgets.”
Pamela Walsh: “I say- fk off back to the M.E. -where u can live exactly how u want. Ride camels, enjoy your husbands infedelity, eat your halal foods, wear ya bedsheets and live happily ever after!”
The four biggest Muslim countries are Indonesia, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. One wonders if Pamela wants them all to go back to the Middle East and ride camels too.
Pauline Hanson’s Please Explain: “I might be a fish and chip lady to some of you, but I was a bloody good business women. Our Government are treating our country like a latenight Demtel commercial.”
Spelling and grammar are not our Pauline’s strong suit.
Pauline Hanson’s Please Explain: “In our current state of debt, I have been very upfront with the people of this country by saying, we cannot afford to take more refugees or the level of immigration in general until we arrest the problems of debt, infrastructure and welfare in this country.”
Kaye Lee: “In our current state of debt” how do you feel about people who suggest scamming money from the electoral commission by fraudulently inflating invoices?
Firstly, congratulations to the One Nation staffer who recorded this meeting and quite properly sought to blow the whistle on this scheme to defraud the Queensland Electoral Commission. That person should receive an Order of Australia.
No amount of spin from Hanson and Ashby can get away from the fact that this scheme was put up as a serious strategy to defraud the electorate and it was way beyond brain-storming. This was the formation of a criminal conspiracy to defraud taxpayers, had they gone through with it there would have been criminal charges without a doubt.
The question now is the extent to which our legal framework can prosecute the likes of Hanson and Ashby.
One wonders what monies were paid to PHON following the recent election in Western Australia? I can’t seem to find up to date info.
Did PHON use the WA election as a trial run for QLD? Presumably, the ‘law’ will look closely.
Not sure about WA but Hanson got $1.62 million for the federal election
If it is the same as federal elections….
The election funding rate from 1 January 2017 to 30 June 2017 is 265.675 cents per eligible vote. In the LA she got 65,192 and in the LC 110,480 which gives $466,716.59….but don’t quote me. The official sites haven’t done returns for 2016-17 yet as far as I can find.
KL, I’ve checked the WA ‘rules’. Have to get more than 4% and receipts are required – unlike the FEDS. What I can’t find is the detail for 2016. It’s there for earlier elections but not the most recent – as far as I can establish
https://www.elections.wa.gov.au/candidates-and-parties/funding-and-disclosure
https://www.elections.wa.gov.au/candidates-and-parties/funding-and-disclosure/submitting-return##ElectionFunding
“election-related returns are available 19 weeks after polling day.” which would be by July 22nd
For each eligible candidate, the election funding reimbursement amount, calculated under s.175LC(2) of the Electoral Act 1907, is to be paid to that candidate for each valid first preference vote received in an election. This amount is $1.869934 as at 1 July 2016, and is adjusted annually, in line with CPI.
If actual eligible electoral expenditure incurred by that candidate or group is less than the amount that would be paid using the above calculation, then this lesser amount is the amount to be reimbursed.
Confusingly it then says “To lodge a claim for payment, a completed application must be submitted to the Commission within 20 weeks of polling day.”
Fraudulent claims
Payments made for a false claim, or made in error, can be recovered by the State through court proceedings (see s.175LH(4) and s.175LI of the Electoral Act 1907).
Penalties for the lodging of false or misleading claims or information for the purposes of a public funding claim apply as follows:
party agent, $15 000
person not being an agent of a political party, $7 500
person supplying false information to another person who must lodge a return for the purposes of electoral funding, $1 500.
Helen Bates ” “you should be giving him the benefit of the doubt until guilt is proven”’ I take it that this only applies to Ashby. You apparently do not apply it to the ‘illegal’ immigrants who have not been charged with any offence.
I know that I am wasting my time in trying to get a logical view across to you, but needed to try.