Message in a bottle

Kaye LeeFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:08 pm

Jason,

I also appreciate your insights but I disagree with you here.

Jihad is the Arabic for what can be variously translated as “struggle” or “effort,” or “to strive,” “to exert,” “to fight,” depending on the context.

Jihad can also mean an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort.

It is Westerners who have narrowed the definition to mean some sort of holy war (which is certainly one of the definitions)

Would you think it sensationalist if I used French words instead?

Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité

TracieFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:16 pm

I agree. This country is turning into a Nazi state. History is repeating right on our shores.

The only difference between the Taliban (and Nazi Germany) and our country is action. From recent history, it appears the Taliban learned very well from USA.

Already the international community is laughing at us.

We need help.

Kaye LeeFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:17 pm

Perhaps I should have called it economic cleansing?

mars08February 10, 2014 at 11:17 pm

I can see what you mean Jason. You make a very good point. Even though I took the word in the first para to mean a struggle by true believers, it does have a hint of Faux News about it.

That said, the rest of the message is clear enough.

Kaye LeeFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:28 pm

I used the word jihad purposely and I am glad it has shocked you. How do you think it makes Muslim Australians feel when we spend two weeks of sitting time in Parliament talking about the “Egyptian jihadist terrorist kept behind a pool fence” who, as it turns out, was a bookkeeper who had fled being locked up for spurious charges that were later proven to be completely false.

People are so scared of anything Arabic or Muslim that we can’t even use their vocabulary any more. You do realise they gave us our numbers?

It makes me very sad.

RoswellFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:36 pm

The country is getting screwed and people are worrying about a word. I’m more worried about the country getting screwed. There are no words to describe the mess.

Trevor VivianFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:40 pm

Hey Kaye Lee. This country needs help.
capt’n Cook was found lost by the local people after running aground in his little ship in a place since called Cooktown.
From cook onward this country was sliced, diced and emasculated by Histories “winners”.
The local people looked like shadows to the winners and were treated worse than paddock hacks on account of the colour of their skin and an absurd world view of “White is right”.
The country needed help then.
I was born in 54 and in Melbourne the shadow people didn’t exist.
Along the way a sense of outrage affected a small % of the winners, but the country needed help then.
Centuries changed numbers to 2 and the Supreme Law people said the shadows really did own this country after all. Some arsewipe politicians fed fear to the winners, held up a map of land lies told. This country needed help then.
Now the adults are in charge but they only know lies and the country needs help now.
Between Cook being found lost and now was 2world wars and the fear remained of the third coming.
The country needed help.
The Third World War began at the end of the 2nd world war and is known as the war on the environment. This county and the world needs help.
The Third World War has raged unheralded since the end of the second with the winners lieing that it doesn’t exist.
In this country the winners grow strong and the shadows are still largely outta sight.
The shadows know, the winners lie, the Third World War exists, this country needs help.

silkwormFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:41 pm

They also gave us soap … for cleansing. 😉

Kaye LeeFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:43 pm

We are getting screwed and we are allowing our government to screw other people to the wall.

“Screwed”….”jihad”….”shitload of trouble”….whatever you want to call it – stand up against it.

Kaye LeeFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:50 pm

OH…my husband just reminded me that saying jihad on the net would have alerted ASIO or some other monitoring body. Stand easy guys….I am non-violent….but don’t expect me to keep quiet. When I get pissed off I am hard to shoosh.

Matters not.February 10, 2014 at 11:53 pm

neither can the words pizza, siesta, entrepreneur, or thousands of other borrowed words.

What’s with this word ‘entrepreneur’?

Didn’t George W. Bush say the problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur?

And so it goes.

jasonblogFebruary 10, 2014 at 10:59 pm

Hi Kaye Lee – I usually love your work, but your use of “jihad” is sensationalist and conforms to the stereotyping favoured by rage radio shock-jocks. Wikipedia has some good introductory stuff on “jihad” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad and there is more to it as a spiritual concept than the crude usage denoting terrorism.

I am not a Muslim myself, but I can appreciate that a degree of respect should be afforded to the religious sensibilities of others & certain terms should not be unduly sensationalised. To do so is to indulge in the sort of “dog-whistle” journalism that Fox News perfected.

Matters not.February 11, 2014 at 12:03 am

have alerted ASIO or some other

ASIO, these days are just a bunch of ‘pussies’.

Will someone now tell me that words have ‘meaning’? Or that words change their meaning (as though they have a life of their own)? Or perhaps humans change the meaning(s) they give to words?

Just askin …

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:03 am

G W also wanted us to live together with fish.

lawrencewinderFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:04 am

K.L., it is a Jihad.. they know their time is short ( The unelected cabinet, the IPA have said so) and they have to wreak as much change/damage as possible so that, as in The Tardis State of Victoria ( Where-All-goes-Backward), it is almost impossible to redress the wanton wrecking that Kennett oversaw.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:07 am

lol Sue, no doubt. Middle-aged women in jammies are a force to be reckoned with!

Michael TaylorFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:07 pm

I disagree, Jason, with due respects. To say that the word jihad cannot find its way into our language is akin to saying that neither can the words pizza, siesta, entrepreneur, or thousands of other borrowed words.

Michael TaylorFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:08 pm

But the point remains: this country does indeed need some help. God knows where it’s going to come from.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:10 am

Ok, I have to ask, which government exactly are you mad at? Not only was some of that rant grossly inaccurate but wandered into two separate levels of government and both parties…

John.RFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:13 am

Sooon very soooon,a great big crack is going to appear in the financial system( between April and June ) and thanks to fractional reserve lending they won`t even be able to print enough money to fill it as there won`t be enough trees,and that will be the end of many corporations and they shall be bankrupt and have to sell off any assets to whoever is left with a bit of money
Yes,it is time for a rethink of how we exist on this planet but that won`t happen till we are shaken to our cores and people wake up to the fact that having a leader yet alone following one is a really dumb thing to do especially when the leaders are clueless.! ! and corrupt ! !

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:18 am

Let’s start with the Federal Coalition government rc and I will work my way on down.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:32 am

Ok Kay, give me a list of things you’re upset with the Federal Government over.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:44 am

inaction on climate change, promoting income inequality, lack of equal opportunity, paying billions for an NBN that most of us won’t get hooked up to, treatment of asylum seekers, sacrificing jobs, vilifying people on the basis of gender, race, religion, economic status and sexual orientation, refusal to listen to expert opinion other than from the business sector, sacking scientists and stopping research….the list grows every day rc.

Sue LofthouseFebruary 10, 2014 at 11:51 pm

Kaye Lee, unlike jasonblog I took your use of “jihad” (the Arabic word for war or struggle) to be an ironic pairing with the term “capitalist fundamentalists”. Taken in that context, I found the reference to be clever rather than sensationalist and without any religious overtones.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:00 am

Well, there is a start…

Climate Change: Real or other-wise, Australia could cease all human induced CO2 emissions tomorrow and it would make precisely zero difference to global temperatures, in-fact, even if we did reach our reduction targets by the time we did so China’s emissions growth would make it insignificant. Also, on a scientific note, if the world doesn’t actually plan on increasing carbon absorption through natural mediums all the CO2 reduction measures the world takes will be a pointless exercise.

Income Inequality: That is a new argument, not sure what you’ve based that on, however, federal legislation regarding equal pay for equal work hasn’t been changed nor is it expected to be changed. More information please.

Equal Opportunity: Is this because only woman made it into cabinet? Only one women was in Hawke’s, Keating’s and Thatcher’s (herself) Cabinets, were they horrible misogynists too? Or did you mean something else? Government still remains the largest employer of women in Australia and no-one is suggesting that is going to change.

NBN: The previous government had no funding contingency to complete the NBN, in-fact only the current government has any chance of getting the thing built close enough to the original funding limit. It was a great “idea” to start with but so poorly executed that in hind-sight it shouldn’t have been attempted.

Asylum Seekers: Yeah, we treat them pretty bad, but we could shoot them like they do in Northern China I suppose, or beat them and send them back out to sea to drown like Burma and co do. At the moment it isn’t an issue, the flow has ceased and current detainees will be free as soon as they’re settled elsewhere.

Sacrificing Jobs: Jobs aren’t sacred and not every job is the government’s to save.

Vilification: There are laws against that, maybe you could try your luck in a law-suit. Though I think you’re most upset with the Gay Marriage over-turn, well, unfortunately the Constitution is pretty clear-cut, maybe you could write a letter to the ACT government complaining that they wasted millions of your dollars on a law they knew was unconstitutional.

Sue LofthouseFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:05 am

Kaye Lee, get real! You’re a loony left-leaning journo on the AIMN. In all probability your ASIO file is already an inch thick!

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:05 am

rc I give you credit for being vaguely intelligent. I could rip every one of those arguments to pieces and you well know it. You are taking advantage of the fact that I am old and need to go to bed. I am sure you know what I would say to every one of the excuses you have proffered.

Dorme bien.

troglodite53Jan PascoeFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:06 am

Kaye Lee, I don’t think “they” even realise the country is burning let alone watching it burn. This Government is soooo totally blind!

John FraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:17 am

<

@Revo

Your idea that no one should change their polluting ways is, as usual, your own personal cop out. But you are in "illustrious" company … Murdoch etc etc

Surprised you don't know about income inequality … give reason to the argument that you are from a privileged family.

Gee just think if we all just stayed in bed and didn't start anything …. better spend your time looking at broadband across the rest of the world, why even the LNP lOrd Mayor of Brisbane thinks high speed internet connection is worth $3 trillion to the Australian economy ….. and he is putting it into action by getting free internet across Brisbane.

So our treatment of asylum seekers is not as bad as some other country …. jesus just where do you get off !

And finally homophobic …. and that's no surprise.

"Revo you're a real deadbeat, why don't you get up early and get a job ?

Better yet send in your CV and lets see what job you're suitable for.

Because pathos isn't one of your finer points, humanity has passed you by and whatever potential you may have looks like being intact when you die.

Michael TaylorFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:24 am

Revo, have you been brainwashed?

Michael TaylorFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:26 am

Either that, or you are a person who is quite at peace that there’s so much wrong with the world? You might be comfortable with it. Many others aren’t.

CMMCFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:02 am

Don’t feed the trolls, especially those who pollute the discussion with their cut-and-paste sophistry.

DissenterFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:43 am

Kaye Lee Thanks for your assessment. SO TRUE.

Our country now needs help BUT IT IS not without HOPE.
WE all have within us the capacity to HELP. The social disasters wrought by high unemployment have not yet happened and the CUTS have not been legislated.

SO each of us can make a difference.
We can ensure that we are UNION members. We can DONATE to the OPPOSITION parties to assist them to advertise or mobilise.
We can become activists ourselves and letterbox our local areas with articles such as yours or cartoons or memes which tell it how it is, in order to stimulate others to think about politics and adverse events such as the future closing of Toyota.
We can each write letters to the LNP government expressing our concern both federally and state members.
We can each email LNP government members expressing our concern in detail.
We can mobilse within our local OPPOSITION party and take action within our branch or UNION.
We can become an activist in our workplace denouncing the latest government outrage and stimulating vigorous debate.
All of these things WE each can reasonably do in a measured way that does not disrupt our lives and we should.
MAKE A DIFFERENCE TODAYand STOP ABBOTT STOP.

TracieFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:52 am

I think music has created change and revolution. How about we use music to our advantage?

It hasn’t been used recently for political reasons, but look at what John Lennon did…

Colleen McgregorFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:54 am

great piece,keep up the good work my friends & I always look out for your articles they are spot on,God help our country under this horrendous Abbott Gov!

Howard MillerFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:20 am

Great article, Kaye, but your “sisters” have taken away “The right to bear arms” for alpha males such as me who would give their life in mortal combat to save you and our next generation from the right wing monsters.
Sad but true, all of the supposed myths about illuminati and all the other perverted wealthy schemes to “make the world a better place” tend to come from Right wing politics. So a simple message in a bottle is too little. too late.
I really feel for the feminists, naively thinking girls in high heels and short dresses can stagger about the streets of any nation, with a skinfull of liquor, is a step forward in humanity.
You may have made a slight error.?
This is only one of the sad places we have visited, the “Right to have a well paid job” is another myth, as the girls in the Philippines know about that one, if you do not have a University degree in that country,? best you can manage is to earn a living on your back.
So we have made a few mistakes in Australia and we are about to reap the harvest. Thousands of former well paid, men and women are about to feel the sting in the tail of conservative politics and it is sadly women who have the most to loose and be certain that is who will cop the worst.
As a result of our apathetic attitude to important issues, we have installed, “Dracular” in the throne room and the blood is about to flow.

John FraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:25 am

<

There's definately a message here :

https://www.facebook.com/SPCsundays

PatrickFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:42 am

This sad, greedy, selfish, prejudice little country has the government it asked for and the government it deserves.

I have no doubt that the excess and avarice that is driving the economy will soon run its course and the mountains of debt will crash down on our heads. Regression toward the mean; it is an inevitability.

I’m so disappointed in what my home land has become. I hope that by the time my children are adults, our moral and ethical compass will have been restored.

Terry2February 11, 2014 at 8:49 am

We were told that any investment in SPC Ardmona would have to be borrowed money…………a Royal Commission costs a lot more than $25 million so, do we have to borrow for that too ?

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 9:08 am

Terry2,

I guess we are borrowing the $10 million to give to the Manly Sea Eagles to do up their grandstand (which happens to be in Tony’s electorate) too.

rossleighbrisbaneFebruary 11, 2014 at 9:16 am

Yes, it sometimes depresses me when I think of the number of people who’ll lose their jobs over the next three years. But then to cheer myself up, I stop thinking of them as numbers and think of them as individuals: Tony, Julie, Peta, Christopher, Joe, Brownyn, Mathias…

davidgraylingFebruary 11, 2014 at 9:18 am

And Tony, the human wrecking ball, has just single-handedly demolished our car industry. What a fool! And wait until he starts on the welfare budget. Recession stalks our country.

Abbott is the greatest catastrophe Australia has ever had!

Douglas EvansFebruary 11, 2014 at 9:19 am

revolutionary citizen
“Income Inequality: That is a new argument, not sure what you’ve based that on, however, federal legislation regarding equal pay for equal work hasn’t been changed nor is it expected to be changed. More information please.”
you have a short attention span
In a previous exchange I pointed out to you that:
“while the median wealth of adult Australians stands at US$219,500 ($233,504), the highest level in the world, according to the Credit Suisse 2013 Global Wealth Report, OECD’s data appears to show that, Australia’s income distribution is the eighth most unequal in the Western world, topped only by the US, Israel, Portugal, Britain, Spain, Greece and Japan. Guess which countries come out on top. Iceland shared its wealth the most, followed by Slovenia, Norway and Denmark.

The Oxfam study ‘Working for the few political capture and wealth inequality launched at Davos WEF meeting directly implicated reductions in top marginal tax rate to wealth inequality. In the UK and the US for example both with worse wealth inequality than us top marginal tax rates have fallen from 60% and 70% to around 42% respectively since 1975 and Abbott has announced that as soon as he can manage it he intends to bring down our top marginal tax rates.”

So, not to put too fine a point on it it appears that despite the impressive air of certainty with which you comment and blog, like your fellow travellers in the IPA, you either don’t know what you are talking about or are running a rather unpleasant agenda you choose to conceal.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 9:21 am

Reading the news every day is becoming a very depressing exercise. In typical totalitarian fashion Tony is sacking anyone who opens their mouth to give him advice he doesn’t want to hear. The latest to go is the boss of Infrastructure Australia because they don’t want him scrutinising the benefit, or lack thereof, of spending billions on roads.

Abbott gets pork on his fork

patsyFebruary 11, 2014 at 9:00 am

Patrick….so true I feel so sad to read or see news these days I sometimes cry…….look at our homeless now….imagine what homeless will be like in three years time……..the lower income people and the people losing their jobs also their homes …..I am getting old now and I pray my grandchildren will have a better life when I am gone….

Carol TaylorFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:01 am

The word jihad means “struggle” and is the problem with this is? Perhaps all Arabic words should likewise be banned..instead of having a damask bedspread we could call it this thingy for the bed with shiny silky stuff enbroidered on it, and heaven help the woman who wears a taffeta skirt, she is clearly spreading Muslim fundamentalism. 😉

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:04 am

Better get rid of those Hindu-Arabic numerals too. We will now work on base eleventy.
And Barnaby Joyce has decreed that kaftans will now be known as moo moos.

TracieFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:08 am

And considering many Anglo-Saxons very distantly came from the Arabic nations many centuries ago, perhaps we should get rid of ourselves too…

Even my name could have (very distantly) come from Arabic. Said in a particular way, it means ‘water’.

oldfartFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:10 am

sounds so third reichish doesnt it. Funy though Tony keeps banging on about building a great road network , the same as Adolph did

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:17 am

Working backwards,

Douglas, I am well aware (and have read many of the reports that detail income inequality) of what the perceived income inequality entails. But the fact remains, it is against the law to pay a woman less than her male counterpart when doing the same job. But that is not what the reports on income inequality are measuring, their measuring female dominated industries versus male dominated industries, which is at best disingenuous and at worst a deliberate attempt at being dishonest.

There are factors that are beyond governmental control in this area, mostly it is personal choice. Women make up the majority of public sector workers, because the public sector offers the most flexible working arrangements (often to fit in with raising children and so forth). Also, even in the private sector women still choose or prefer to work part time (for much the same reason). Also, even in like for like positions the average female worker will loose two years experience compared to the male counterpart (for much the same reason) and that can be reflected in earnings and promotional rate. Even now after years of girls achieving not just equality but dominance in the classroom there has been little transfer of that to the numbers of women undertaking business, law, medicine and engineering at university, which are still quite male dominated and gives males a head-start in the earnings game. Also, none of these reports mention that the average male worker can be at work for up to 60 hours per week to achieve his income, on average female workers don’t come anywhere near that.

So largely, it is a myth based on the biological requirement that we breed for the purposes of our species surviving.

Terry2, Coca Cola Amitil who owns SPC Ardmona makes an annual profit of $500,000,000 and if it is refusing to invest in its own business, then quite frankly we shouldn’t be doing it for them. They’re making more money than our government is at the moment and still asking for a hand-out. It’s that level of pathetic business leadership that has seen this country take the long slide to third-worldom.

Michael, there is a lot wrong with the world, sitting around complaining about if from some fanciful ideological point of view won’t solve any of it. Truth is, we should only be making pragmatic decisions that best suit us, and one of those is accepting that Australia’s human induced CO2 emissions make zero difference to the world’s temperatures.

John, poor John…

One does not need to be homophobic to be able to read the constitution, which clearly states that when laws of the state and laws of the commonwealth are in conflict the laws of the commonwealth take precedence. It is as simple as that, and any first year law student could have told you that. So, yes, the ACT government knew that the law they passed was unconstitutional, and they wasted millions of dollars in the process.

We don’t treat asylums seekers as poorly as other countries, and we wouldn’t have to treat them at all if Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard didn’t see them as an easy means of importing votes to fill marginal seats.

NBN worth $3T? Bull****, not even making the computers that connect to the internet would provide a $3T return to our economy. In-fact even on NBNco’s own analysis it will never ever return a single dollar back to the tax-payer as profit. The fact is as it has always been, business has had access to a fibre network delivering unlimited band-width for 20 years. Australian business’ just aren’t interested in trying to compete with the US of A in an area they own, software development. All we will be using the NBN for is downloading porn and music, much the same as we use the internet now for. As for Europe, NBNco will have to wire an area greater than the entirety of the EU to complete its network, it is one entity with one funder with 23.000,000 to pay for it, the EU has over 500,000,000 people to pay for their network. Maybe compare apples to apples in future…

Income inequality is largely a myth perpetuated by those who need to justify their jobs, as explained above.

As for AGW, I stated a scientific fact, not a theory, not a supposition, but a fact, Australia’s human induced CO2 emissions are insignificant to global temperature, and well short of our natural CO2 emissions by all measure. Also, CO2 won’t disappear from the atmosphere, it actually needs somewhere to go, much of the atmospheric increase in CO2 has been caused by a decline in natural absorption (deforestation) and not purely as a result of increased out-put. Even if we decreased out-put, without addressing the decline in absorption the atmospheric CO2 concentration will continue to increase.

And that is science, real science, as practiced by real scientists with real degrees in the fields they study, maybe next time you won’t skip science class…

Kay, I am sure you would offer great argument, as you know I would only then offer a great counter, and on and on it would go.

TracieFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:24 am

RC I read your first paragraph and just had to comment. There’s no inequality, unless it’s a ‘female’ dominated industry… Is that what you are saying?

Seriously, which mushroom did you come from?

There is inequality. It’s the reason why I was paid 2/3 of the amount that a typical male lawyer would be paid in the legal industry. That philosophy was basically drilled into me the whole time I was employed by that particular law firm. As a female, that ex-boss continually hinted that I couldn’t be trusted.

John FraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:31 am

<

@Revo "reading backwards" … that's just perfect and sits well with you dragging out the Australian Constitution that was written at the beginning of last century and failed to account for Australia's Indigenous population.

Give it up Revo you don't bother using the brain you were born with so don't bother asking others to do your thinking for you.

John FraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:33 am

<

@Revo

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/business-it/a-plea-to-brisbane-business-go-forth-and-be-digital-20130312-2fxbz.html

You're the slow one here.

Stephen TardrewFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:34 am

Kaye Lee I completely agree with you. In my experience most people are just trying to survive and work their way through the world. It’s not that people are really mean and nasty it is however the case their opinions are shaped by a media that is betoken to our corporate rulers.

Interestingly there are a broad variety of well formulated solutions to poverty and inequality. When I see Jeffery Sachs near to tears because of the cruelty and injustice of his countries approach to inequality it is time to worry. The Earth Institute at Columbia University has an extensive and comprehensive approach to poverty and inequity as does Australian philosopher Peter Singer in his book “A Life You Can Save.” Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler in their well researched book “Abundance” clearly outline the fact that we have abundant resources to cope with resource depletion. The amazing work of engineer, inventor and futurist Jacques Fresco and his Venus Project demonstrates how self replicating machines and planning can take the drudgery out of life and provide all of the necessities of life in a moneyless society. The Millennium Project promoted by Kofi Anann and Jeffrey Sachs is also a vibrant and coherent solution to world poverty. There is not room enough here to cover all of the progressive people and institutions struggling to formulate a more just and equitable paradigm.

The point is it can be done however the wealthy oligarchs and corptocracy continually drive the fearful narrative that their way is the only way and if we challenge capitalist greed the world will fall apart. Well guess what things are looking pretty shitty at the moment thanks to them. Abbot and his lot are selfish ignoramuses willing to vilify anyone who does not agree with them. There is hope while so many talented people and institutions are silently, yet single mindedly, struggling to solve the dysfunction of capitalism and inequality. In this respect I am both pissed of and angry yet hopeful that there are rational solutions to rampant capitalist greed.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:39 am

Just looked back at my original comment. I actually meant income inequity. Doug has given a very good explanation of that, and it has been identified as one of the greatest economic challenges facing us along with climate change.

You keep ignoring the hypocrisy of handing over 16 million to one very profitable company while rejecting others, 10 million to his footie team, 3.5 million to a fish farming couple etc etc. If you donated to the Liberal Party or you live in a marginal seat or are lucky enough to live in Tony’s electorate then ask and you shall receive.

And even you can’t believe the rot you say about climate change. You ignore our exports which put us up to being responsible for about 5% of emissions (from memory). Greenhouse gases stop us from being able to emit radiation back into space ttrapping it here and causing warming. That’s not a good scientific explanation. Go look at sceptical science and educate yourself.

Come on rc…..porn and music? Could I suggest you have a look at the CBA done by New Zealand for their FttP network. If we can facilitate 20% of elderly people being able to remain in their homes 1 year longer before going into care we will save 60 million over the next 10 years. I could go on but you are obviously just being silly with that comment too. Can you show me the link where NBNco have said “it will never ever return a single dollar back to the tax-payer as profit”? It is of course a loan…are you saying we won’t get our investment back?

mikestasseFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:47 am

@ Terry 2…. “We were told that any investment in SPC Ardmona would have to be borrowed money…………a Royal Commission costs a lot more than $25 million so, do we have to borrow for that too ?”

ALL money is created as debt. NEVER forget it……..

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:52 am

“The NBN will eventually cover approximately 12,000,000 premises, so lets do some really simple maths — and presume that only 50 percent of all premises take up a service, and they all take up only the basic service:

Yes. That is 1.728 BILLION dollars of revenue. In a year. If 50 percent of people take up a basic service. Before we add in CVC pricing. Of course, NBN Co has to spend some of the money maintaining the network, and paying its employees – (so it’s not “profit”) – but $1.728bn is a lot of money.”

John FraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:54 am

<

@Kaye Lee

Try this :

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/Bankrupt-builder-Walton-still-donated-430000-toLNP/2164311/

"Age of entitlement" and "personal responsibility" ?

But not for developers who "donate" to the LNP.

Rob SuperinaFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:02 am

I find it amusing that you refer to yourself as revolutionary citizen.. Revolting against what? you seem to be more a confirmist to me or perhaps you are going for the Corey Bernardi type of revolution? either way your answers or comments are purely selfish. Selfish in the way that you are not endeavouring to debate rather you are using this opportunity to try and establish some type of intellectual ascendancy over not only the topic but individuals. That is rather sad. However one would assume that by now you are used to people tuning out of your overbearing manner of conversation because you have been doing it for years no doubt. There is a major difference between using your intellect to create dialogue and debate rather than to self promote. The later leads to no one listening.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:02 am

John,

I saw that article, and they aren’t the only ones. Give hundreds of thousands to the Liberal Party then declare yourself bankrupt so you don’t have to pay the subcontractors. nice scam that!

Regarding the NBN, this is a good recent article.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2014/2/6/technology/nbn-boss-faces-uphill-battle

John FraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:21 am

<

@Kaye Lee

Looks like the NBN will go ahead as planned with Turnbull insisting that the cost is exorbitant and its Labor's fault ….. now where have I heard that before ?

TPG has even less credence than newman rolling out fibre through the sewer system when he was Lord Mayor of Brisbane.

I think Turnbull will convince the trogs that it is in their best interests to go along with the NBN and all the polls will show that.

DissenterFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:30 am

To all, As many of the IPA and NLP trolls confirm in the attempts to subvert the key points of every article written on this site The NLP are embedding themselves for a very very long period in government.

They are doing this with a large number of strategies which include annihilating all opposition and the avenues for funding that is available to them,2 by stealing away democracy through the prevention of facts being aired or printed in the mainstream media and on TV, by falsifying facts on a daily basis on the same and by changing laws and everything else they can to ensure that any opposition is neutered and impotent.
They will subvert the course of elections wherever possible.
They are preparing to use the military to legitimise their control in government.
Their propaganda employs the same technique that revolutionary citizen uses- the misuse of words to misrepresent themselves and their intentions.

It is very unwise to think that this can be FIXED by next election. It is going to TAKE a STRONGER harder struggle than that because WITHOUT that FIGHT and the GROWING OF OPPOSITION power and resources, funding, the unions and Opposition or independent media TV and MSM they will win the next election IN SPITE of their mismanaged government because the majority of people will be ENTIRELY misinformed and their SCANDAL AFTER SCANDAL DIRT TEAM will have manufactured SO MANY SCANDALS about the Opposition which are NOT TRUE that again they will win government.
It is necessary for every ETHICAL and LOYAL AUSTRALIAN to Take up OPPOSition vigorously whether you support the GREENS, Labor or an independent and it is necessary to KEEP uP THE PRESSURE for the FULL 3 years so that you have convinced as many people as possible that the LNP government are a SHAM- they are not what they said they would be and are mismanaging the economy and government FOR THE MOST corrupt of reasons. GREED.

Australia is the new RIPE fruit for the picking and the GREEDY global wealthy want to SUCK US DRY and turn us into another THIRD world country when they are FINISHED.

TracieFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:42 am

Dissenter, I fully agree with every word you said.

I’d love to have this song become popular again – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgRWJP1Ktww. It’s relevant today as it was back then.

Paul Raymond ScahillFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:56 am

Cannot help but endorse every word you write (including jihad). I am retired, as is my lovely wife of 43.5 years, however it would appear that whilst the ring-master and his bunch of clowns are in charge (Alfred Lord Tennyson) I think, Charge of the Light Brigade, we may well have seen the best of it. Apart from the Howard era, for which we were barely able to hold on, the clown prince Tony Abbott would appear as though he is hell-bent on destroying 226 years of hard-work and toil by all those before him. As for R.C. I now dont even bother wasting my time reading his CRAP.

cassilva48February 11, 2014 at 11:17 am

Let’s hope Kaye Lee, that the next step is not the establishment of work camps, perhaps then Tony Abbott will finally rid himself of the menacing blue collars that once upon a time, built Australia to the nation it is today.

Gregory TFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:24 pm

I’ve said this before, but I feel it is worth stating again.

‘If income, wealth, and economic position are also political resources and they are distributed unequally, then how can citizens be political equals?

And if citizens cannot be political equals, how is democracy to exist?’

Robert Alan Dahl

Dan RowdenFebruary 11, 2014 at 12:36 pm

Is there any chance at all that we could stop labeling people trolls simply because they disagree with us? It’s so infantile it’s embarrassing. Possession and expression of a different socio-economic perspective and ideology does not give anyone carte blanche to dismiss such a person as “brainwashed”, “vaguely intelligent”, “homophobic” or any of the rest of the nonsense being tossed around. If their defense of that ideology is weak, then ought it not be easy to disassemble and show to be faulty? I don’t agree with most of what RC argues or his general worldview, but his contributions to this commentary thread in no way warrant the response he’s been given.

Did Kaye Lee’s and John Lord’s recent articles mean nothing at all? Presumably so.

RC,

You can’t seriously imagine that, with respect to the issue of Asylum Seekers, that, “It could be worse.” constitutes a meaningful rebuttal to the view that our present conduct is anywhere near satisfactory. Given what appears to be your perspective on the matter, can I ask you this question – Do you believe Australia should remain a signatory to the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees?

John FraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:17 pm

<

@Dan

A nice reasoned and balanced question that Revo should have no trouble answering.

Whereas I just flew of the handle and asked him if Australia should be as bad as other countries as if that is some sort of standard we should accept.

I should have realised that "baddies v baddies" is not a reasoned and balanced reply.

I take full personal responsibility for the lack of entitlement that I have refused Revo from expressing.

So !

Good luck with your question.

DissenterFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:24 pm

Dan, No-one questions the right of anyone to disagree with anyone about any point.

But there are commentators who are using avatars that misrepresent who they are within the name itself and those commentators see it as their responsibility to trivialise, disprove, abuse, reject and admonish all of the other opinions expressed and the commentators themselves.
It is not the rebuttal it is the consistent intent to confirm CONSERVATISM and the righteousness of the LNP that is the key.THe ASSERTION of the AUTHORITY over others.

That is precisely WHY we have to be aware that this is AN ORGANISED attack on freedom of speech and the freedom of expressing ideas and that these paid commentators are BULLY boys in the same way as the Brownshirts were in pre Nazi and nazi Germany.
Once we have that awareness we are EMPOWERED to understand it and take action which is necessary when needed.

Dan RowdenFebruary 11, 2014 at 1:30 pm

John,

I’m really very curious as to “Revo”‘s reply to it, because whilst I don’t want to leap to conclusions about his views on it, much of what he says leads me to think that he may be unconcerned about whether we are signatories to it or not. He gives the appearance of having a significantly parochial attitude when it comes to international and diplomatic dynamics, hence his view that, with respect to, say, Indonesia having an opinion to express in relation to Australian political events, he dismisses them entirely on the grounds that, “They need us more than we need them”.

We’ll wait and see but all that seems to be expressive of a somewhat classic insularity.

MurphyFebruary 11, 2014 at 3:06 pm

Revo uses the mediaite.com method. All about money, nada about consequences, responsibility for persistent failed outcomes and in current times, well funded rebellion industry designed to turn over un-obediant govts..

The devil in the pie chart – http://blog.sfgate.com/morford/2014/02/04/the-devil-in-the-pie-chart/

abbienoiraudeFebruary 11, 2014 at 3:15 pm

The more succinct your message, Kaye, the more overt your choice of words, the better we can get a handle on the message. I totally agree with your post ( as usual).

The greatest shock that is visiting upon me is that we no longer value, understand or encourage emotional intelligence. No longer is compassion, empathy and caring considered ‘worthwhile’ traits in us as a peoples. With the name calling throughout the Howard years ( ‘bleeding heart’) Abbott is the leader to take it to the next level of being completely without understanding or recognition of the needs of the ‘least of us’.

So we have lost the land of the ‘fair go’ ( if ever it existed), or the country who ‘stands by their mates’ ( except if that ‘mate’ was a woman), or a Nation that believed itself to ‘barrack for the underdog’.

What have we become?
What am I to teach my new grandson? If he is to survive in the future is his being helped to become empathetic going to put him behind the ability to ‘succeed’?
I fear for the next three years let alone the next 6 under this cruel, self serving and visionless Government.

Those arguments of RC’s are truly exhausting. I get to the stage where I think; Well if you have to have it explained to you the argument won’t reach your heart let alone your brain. It is a waste of my energy and being 60 years old I value that to fight for more important things than to play games with Conservative apologists.

John.RFebruary 11, 2014 at 5:15 pm

I hope Tony Abbott likes to eat pie…of the humble variety…..as that is what is heading his way.
On another subject I saw his sister on telly today,she wants to marry another woman,just another excuse to put your head further into the sand,but the pie is coming from a different place and it doesn`t contain capitalist ingredients

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 5:23 pm

Tracie, what you experienced was/is against the law, nor directly related to the point I made about how the claim of income inequality is made. As far as practicing law goes, Australia’s largest law firm has a majority of female lawyers and managers. So things do change, but that doesn’t change the underlying point in regards to the out-come of income inequality is far more directly related to the inequality if in-put, not structural bias. Claiming women are underpaid because nurses don’t earn what engineers do is really what some are arguing when they mention income inequality, and that sort of bastardised logic does need challenging.

John, the constitution is what it is, it doesn’t change the fact that what I said was absolutely correct. If you can’t handle that then you need to petition for a referendum to change the constitution to whatever it is you want it to be, with that, I wish you luck. Also, it matters not what the Lord Mayor wants, the reality is Telstra has been offering its business clients a complete fibre-optic connection for 20 years, and the resulting up-tick in IT development was negligible.

Kay, the capital expenditure cost of the FTTH network exceeded $60B, even on the best figures produced by the NBNco the company would never recoup that money before the network was replaced due to age. Tesltra never recouped its capital investment either, so it isn’t a one-off. Even NBNco concedes even the cut-price FTTN model is unlikely to recoup its capital out-lay either, so both are a net loss to us, the tax-payer.

As for the climate-change issue, what I said was correct. What people fail to realise that reflective properties of gasses actually work in both ways, for heat to be trapped beneath heat must also be reflected above. I am not arguing the theory, only that it is much more complicated than that. Also, you have to factor in the thinning of the O3 layer, which lets in ever increasing amounts of energetic radiation which in itself would cause temperature increases even if atmospheric CO2 concentrations were normal. Adding to this, there is the human experience and direct manipulation of weather, this is the correlation between terraforming and how we experience the result (Heat Island Effect), by changing the underlying natural state we have created weather that sits out-side of normal climactic systems. For example, Kuala Lumpur has experienced greater and greater rain-falls because the heat-island effect of the city draws more moisture into the atmosphere, where it then becomes trapped between the mountains and the seas, until it falls as rain over the city. Or Sydney, a vast urban metropolis that extends from the Pacific Ocean right up to the base of the Blue Mountains (Brisbane is in a similar position), the heat generated and stored by this man-made environment has created an entirely unnatural weather pattern. Even if we abated climate change, places like Sydney won’t get substantively cooler, and if the city-scape grows it will continue to get hotter. As for our emissions, Australians thing that because we export a lot of coal we are the largest miners of it, plenty of countries mine more coal than we do. Our exported emissions aren’t ours, (although we count them as such) and even with that included it is still insignificant, mainly because Australia has such a small heavy industry base (and shrinking). Far more pollution is made turning Iron into Steal which the Europeans/China/Japan/USA and Russia are far more responsible for than us. So for us to do something practical about AGW we should be focusing on returning as much of our former natural state back to natural state and begin the process of better urban planning before Sydney’s population reaches 20 or so million people.

Paul, that’s your opinion.

Rob, Am I self promoting? Hardly, I have no need to. And I have never argued the person rather than the topic, and I have never stated anything about myself here, so I think you’re reading a great deal into something that truly isn’t there. But if that is your opinion, so be it. As for dialogue, I attempt to answer everyone’s points without unduly being negative towards the person raising the point, I assume everyone hear is an adult and is here for noble reasons and treat them as such, which is a lot more than what can be said about some others here. As for being over-bearing, people may take it that way, for that I apologise, however, I do try and be thorough and relevant, again, more than what could be said about some others.

Dan, thanks for your post. But I do believe in the absolute right of people to say what they think, and people are free to call me whatever they wish, I certainly take none of it personally, as I dare say very few people here would take everything said about them to heart either. I have my own reasons for doing what I do, and they are often quite removed from the politics of the day.

As for the second part of your post. I saw no need to provide rebuttal to the obvious, I merely pointed out that people have invested far too much emotional energy into a system by world standards is hardly the worst. Remember, on Kevin Rudd’s own back-of-napkin mathematics his changes to the immigration system got over 4,000 people killed, so which is worse, what we do now, or what we did then? You also have to remember that a UN Charter is largely meaningless in legal terms, yes we’ve agreed to it but we also know that no-one can enforce it. What people must also remember is that our law is sovereign, what we determine under the law is absolute, so, that means everything our government is doing is perfectly legal, both domestically and internationally with only one single exception, the forcible transference of persons from one vessel to another on the high-seas may be in contravention of the Laws of the Sea, but still yet to be tested. Which makes the question of remaining signatories to the charter meaningless, because it truly doesn’t make an ounce of difference one way or the other.

As for how I may or may not view international relationships, that can be another conversation some other time.

And by the way, yes, Indonesia does need us a whole lot more than we need them (at this point in time, subject to future change).

john921fraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 5:46 pm

<

@Revo

"What people must also remember is that our law is sovereign, what we determine under the law is absolute, "

Until the next government changes it …. due to people pressure.

You just can't quite get democracy right.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 5:48 pm

John, they don’t even need to change the law, they can just change the regulatory provisions through executive compact.

Democracy? Has nothing to do with it.

TracieFebruary 11, 2014 at 5:52 pm

That’s true RC. There’s no such thing as democracy here anymore. That’s been recently proven again and again and again… Recently…

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 5:55 pm

Australia was never a democracy Tracie, it was a nice sounding word they used to con people into agreeing to the constitution.

john921fraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 6:03 pm

<

@Revo

Then once again we come back to your much vaunted Constitution.

Keep digging.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 6:03 pm

rc,

you make statements like they are facts but you never provide links to your sources and I know that much of what you are saying is…well…just wrong. (polite version)

Although 61.4% of law graduates are women, only 23% make partner in top-tier corporate law firms, 18% in mid-tier and 17% in small firms. The Courts are also rollicking penis pageantries with the Federal Court, for instance, having a mere 16% of women on its bench. Male law graduate starting salaries on average $4,300 higher than female law graduates.

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/why-women-cant-get-ahead-in-law-firms-20130920-2u4xz.html

Re same sex marriage legislation, had they made amendments that created a distinct status of marriage called ‘same-sex marriage’ the constitutional argument would have been nullified.

Re NBN “NBN Co’s new model would likely see demand for upgrades starting from when it was slated to be completed in 2020, whereas Labor’s original NBN model would not need to see its fibre upgraded in the foreseeable future.”

I refuse to argue climate change with you. Whatever spurious argument you are putting forward will be far better answered here. http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

“Our exported emissions aren’t ours, (although we count them as such) and even with that included it is still insignificant,”. We live on the same planet, we do NOT include our exports when calculating our emissions and 5% is NOT miniscule considering our population – we are the highest per capita emitter in the world. Where’s your personal responsibility?

“changes to the immigration system got over 4,000 people killed”
Where did THAT figure come from? Between 2000 and 2007 (the period which includes the introduction of the “Pacific Solution” for asylum seekers travelling by boat under the Coalition government), the database documents 746 reported deaths of asylum seekers. Between 2008 and July 2013 (under Labor), 877 asylum seekers have reportedly died.
http://theconversation.com/factcheck-have-more-than-1000-asylum-seekers-died-at-sea-under-labor-16221

Stating something does NOT make it a fact rc and you really need to broaden your sources of information because wherever you are getting it from it is telling you fibs.

silkwormFebruary 11, 2014 at 6:18 pm

RevHead, CO2 is not a reflective gas; it’s absoptive. You are full of shit.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 6:40 pm

Silk, no, CO2 is a reflective gas and an absorbent gas. (you’ll find plenty of gasses work in that fashion)

Kay, the operative word in “Gay Marriage” is “Marriage” any law that used that word must comply with the Marriage Act which sets out in law what defines “Marriage”. So, unless you can change that act no state or territory can create any law that creates or seeks to create an institution called “Marriage”.

Do not mistake upgrade with age induced replacement, fibre-optic cables are not immune to age, every single cm of fibre-optic cable laid by NBNco will have to be replaced, and that is likely to occur before it repays its capital expenditure plus interest. (because every penny of it is borrowed)

5%? Try 1.8%… (And yes, that is insignificant to temperature, and no, I don’t feel the slightest bit responsible)

I quoted a Kevin Rudd campaign speech in which he gave the ration of 1 in 12, if he was wrong, I withdraw the claim.

Lastly, only now are there more female law graduates, and considering the average age of judges it is going to be a while before that transfers across. Slater and Gordon mirrors the current law graduate trend (by simply getting rid of older male staff in order to hyper-accelerate the demographic shift). as for first year earnings, that may require a complete breakdown of, what areas of law are favoured by males/females and hours worked. Again, every workforce study shows men simply put in far greater hours in the workplace. I would be more concerned if we were in 5 years time having the same discussion, that may be a different matter.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 6:49 pm

I should have also pointed out that, gay couples are recognised by almost every piece of federal and state legislation and every governmental institution, gay couples are determined to have the same legal status as married couples under the “de facto” recognition within the law.

So when a gay couple separate it is treated as a normal divorce proceeding in the federal court with the normal rules applying. They’re recognised by the Family Court when dealing with separation and custody matters. And so on and so forth, the only thing they can’t do is actually apply for and receive a marriage license, which is really, they’re exempt from paying the marriage tax…

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:02 pm

“Greenpeace estimates the mega-mines planned for Queensland’s Galilee Basin alone would produce some 705 million tonnes of CO2 each year. That’s enough to chew through around 6% of the CO2 the entire world can release to keep warming to 2C above pre-industrial temperatures.”

“the federal parliament has the constitutional power to introduce a national law allowing same-sex couples to marry.” WITHOUT changing the constitution.

“women have been graduating from law school at equal numbers to men for over twenty years.”

Show the links to this stuff you are saying. You must be getting this info from somewhere or are you just making it up?

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:12 pm

Let’s go back to 2004

“Less than an hour after Prime Minister John Howard announced the changes to the Marriage Act, the government rushed legislation enabling the changes into parliament.

Mr Howard said the Marriage Act would be changed to include a definition of marriage as the `voluntarily entered-into union of a man and a woman to exclusion of all others’.

The laws currently do not define marriage.

“We’ve decided to insert this into the Marriage Act to make it very plain that that is our view of a marriage and to also make it very plain that the definition of a marriage is something that should rest in the hands ultimately of the parliament of the nation,” Mr Howard told reporters.

”(It should) not over time be subject to redefinition or change by courts, it is something that ought to be expressed through the elected representatives of the country.”

Who the hell does this man think he is?

How come HE got to change the Act with no referendum?

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:15 pm

Greenpeace may estimate all it likes, reality is we are are 1.8% of global.

I never said otherwise, I said you’d have to change it to allow the states to change their laws.

Then we will shortly see a rapid increase in the number of female magistrates as they reach seniority, if they’re still practicing in that demographic. I was going to also point out that lawyers are paid like salespeople, the more you do the more you earn.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:31 pm

Kay, I did not see your 2nd post, is it adequately covered in mine above?

doctorrob54February 11, 2014 at 7:34 pm

Reblogged this on doctorrob54.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:35 pm

Show me where 1.8% comes from and that it includes our exports.

“While Australia’s domestic greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions represent some 1.5% of the global total, its global carbon footprint – the total amount of carbon it pushes out into the global economy – is much bigger.

Australia is the world’s largest coal exporter. By adding emissions from exported coal to our domestic emissions, Australia’s carbon footprint trebles. Its coal exports alone currently contribute at least another 3.3% of global emissions.

In aggregate, therefore, Australia is at present the source of at least 4.8% of total global emissions. That’s without considering natural gas exports.”

http://theconversation.com/why-australia-must-stop-exporting-coal-9698

And that is WITHOUT the Galilee Basin.

STOP MAKING STUFF UP!!!

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:42 pm

I didn’t include exported coal because those emissions are counted by those whp burn it. Thus it is double counting and not very scientific. Yes, we are the largest exporter of, not the largest miner of, not one and the same. You’re pre-export figure is 1.5% which makes us even more insignificant and me even less inclined to feel guilty about it.

Buff McMenisFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:42 pm

It’s alright, Kaye .. help is on the way! We shall be saved .. saved, I tell you! Robinson Crusoe found the bottle and Friday is on his way! Or was the Huckleberry Finn? Whichever, they shall be here soon, along with all the goodies (yes, them too .. The Goodies, including the Giant Kitten) they can find in our imaginations and derived from our childhood reading. 🙁

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:53 pm

And NO your comment didn’t answer my point. John Howard took it upon himself to change the act and define marriage to HIS view. What gives HIM the right to do that with no reference to the people who elected him?

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:10 pm

Ok, Kay, that is an entirely different question…

Firstly, he has every legal right to, we are governed by consent, that is, when we vote we give our consent to be governed by whomever gains a parliamentary majority, and under the constitution we have that majority is free to do just about anything it damn well wishes. (within constitutional confines)

Since marriage is the domain of the Federal Government he upon achieving a majority had every right to by our consent to change that law to whatever he determined fit, and likely to pass through the parliament as it was then constituted.

Does it make what he did right? That’s a matter of subjective opinion…

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:18 pm

I am fully aware that the words “elected representative” mean nothing to the Liberal Party. Far be it from them to do what the people who elected them want. They apparently know better. They will slavishly follow populist polls, Tony is a self-confessed “weathervane”, until it comes to things that go against big business or his religion. THEN we receive edicts from above regardless of what the majority of the population want. They pay lip service to the word democracy as they sell us down the river.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:25 pm

This blog isn’t large enough to go through how many laws both sides have introduced that are truly aweful.

However, they do what we elect them to on every occasion, govern an pass laws.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:37 pm

Well that’s where we differ rc. I elect them to represent me, not to have open slather to do whatever the hell they want regardless of what the majority of the population want.

Abbie NoiraudeFebruary 11, 2014 at 7:41 pm

You are so so patient Kaye Lee.

revolutionarycitizen: ( glad I got under your radar) IF you are going to address the writer of this piece Please get her name Right!!!!! You are being disrespectful!

rossleighbrisbaneFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:44 pm

Gee, I hope that spelling of “aweful” was intentional, RC. Not going to mention the “govern an pass laws” bit.

rossleighbrisbaneFebruary 11, 2014 at 8:46 pm

And yes, you can say that spelling don’t matter (intentional, ironic) but don’t come back talking about the functional illiteracy of kids today.

Matters not.February 11, 2014 at 9:23 pm

Don’t worry about the spelling so much Ross, consider the ‘equating’ of the singular with the plural.

It’s both ‘awful’ and ‘aweful’.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 9:54 pm

You have to remember Kay, we’re a captive of the system, we have no choice as to how the system works, we only get to decide who controls the system. Governments do not exist for the whims of the majority, they exist only to perform the functions of the institutions.

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:16 pm

I have been told many times that I can’t do something, that I should just accept that’s the way it is. Every time I get told that it only serves to make me more determined to achieve my final goal, cause I’ve heard it all before and I’ve been down there on the floor, No-one’s ever gonna keep me down again. Yes I am wise but it’s wisdom borne of pain, yes I’ve paid the price but look how much I’ve gained. If I have to I can do anything.

You could learn a few things about activism and the power of the people rc.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 10:32 pm

Activism only goes so far, you can change attitudes, you can change a great many things, but changing the system is quite another thing entirely.

The notion that government is the be all and end all, the doer of all things we want only keeps us enslaved by its demands. The idea that we get to decide when to change the who in government is democracy is poisonous, choosing someone to represent you on your behalf is an absolute abrogation of what democracy is, it also leads to the severance of government from people, it becomes something done by others on our behalf, not something done by us for our benefit.

You don’t like Tony Abbott, or the Liberal Party, that’s fine, but they’re only a product of the system, they’ve managed to play the game better than their opponent, an opponent who is now barely clinging to life with less than 1/3 of the primary vote (and falling). It is all well and good for people to bang on about “One Term Tony” with plenty of conviction, but at some point you do have to face reality, that right now there is no plausible alternative that could beat him in an election within the ranks of the Parliamentary Labor Party, there just isn’t.

And by those who oppose Tony Abbott being so openly venomous they leave themselves caught between a rock and a hard place, they give Tony Abbott every reason not to govern for them and by being so venomous actually destroy votes for their own side.

I would wager real money that if more people on the left were as well considered as you are Kay you may have a chance of winning the next election, unfortunately for your side of the divide that possibility gets further and further away every day.

Matters not.February 11, 2014 at 10:55 pm

Here we go:

we’re a captive of the system

I know RC you have a habit of equating the ‘plural’ with the ‘singular’ and not distinguishing between same, but perhaps you might explain the ‘we’ in this statement. Is it ‘you’ with perhaps multiple personalities? Or is it supposed to include ‘me’ and if it does can I beg to opt out of your shallow analysis.

Then we have:

we have no choice as to how the system works

This ‘system’ to which you refer – is it a human construct or is it ‘god’ given or is it just ‘natural’? BTW, I won’t do the ‘we’ question again and I’ll leave the concept of ‘choice’ alone for the moment.

As for:

Governments do not exist for the whims of the majority, they exist only to perform the functions of the institutions

So many questions here, mainly because there are so many ‘undefined’ concepts. Take ‘institutions’ as a prime example.

Shakes head ..

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:15 pm

“changing the system is quite another thing entirely”

Yes rc, it takes guts and determination and vigilance and action. That’s how women cast off the shackles imposed on them by men who had a certain view of our place in the world.

“The notion that government is the be all and end all, the doer of all things we want only keeps us enslaved by its demands.”

The government has not been elected to make demands or to enslave us. They are our employees and I will demand that they do their job which is to make decisions in the best interests of the people, to act for the common good.

“they’ve managed to play the game better than their opponent”

Since when did governing become a game? Are there any rules to this game? Would spreading misinformation be against the rules of this game?

“right now there is no plausible alternative that could beat him in an election ”

I will remind you that at the last election the Liberal Party didn’t have a “plausible alternative” and they won. You thought the internal fighting of the Labor Party was bad….I would suggest that another two years down the track and Tony and Peta will be clinging to each other and watching their backs.

“if more people on the left were as well considered as you are Kay ”

You can’t hear what I am saying as I type VERY hard and you don’t know how many times I have had to self-edit. I am very angry about what is being done to my country.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:18 pm

No, “we” as in the collective is used correctly, and no, you can’t opt out, because you can’t opt out of the system. You may decide to confront the system in order to force it to change, but that begs the question, have you changed the system? Or have you merely changed the who in the system?

Without the ability to alter the system by your own volition you are not changing it, in our instance, we do not have citizen initiated referenda, we must elect someone to do so on our behalf, and look how well that has turned out. This is a reflection of the system, it empowers those who have the greatest interest in keeping the power to themselves.

Again, you may confront the system, but have you changed the system? Or have you merely changed the who in the system?

The fundamentals of our system have only been changed with our consent 4 times in a century, so are we not captive to it? You could argue that we need a measure of captivity to ensure functional cohesion, that a truly malleable instrument of foundation would be unworkable, that may be so, but it does not change the underlying reality, we’re still captives.

Institutions can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, do you really want my definitions of them, or would you rather build your own?

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:34 pm

Kay,

In the first instance, nothing within the system has changed in regards to he view of women, women in Australia obtained political equality by ballot (one they couldn’t vote it, granted) when we federated in 1901. What has changed is the attitudes of those people within the system, not the system itself, I hope you understand the separation I am making here, as the argument I was making was about the system, not the people within it, as they come and go, the system is permanent.

To your second point, that is our view of the situation, that is not necessarily their view of us, we have largely become the means to an end, true we are the means by which they who govern us survive, but isn’t the reverse also true? And if so, who really has the power in that relationship? Us who are reliant on their decisions, us who are forced to vote for one or the other in some torturous game of musical chairs, us who are largely unaware or uninformed as to the machinations of the system they alone operate? Or is it them, they who have unlimited power and authority, unlimited scope and unlimited money? We’ve been largely conned into thinking that to some degree we matter in their equations, we matter only as a means of garnering the authority to perpetuate their ideals and ideologies, everything is measured in votes by them, not the good it does, or even the harm it does, it’s a mathematical calculation of the probability of re-election.

After-all, that is the prime directive of every politician, get elected, then get re-elected, rinse and repeat.

Lastly, I understand you’re angry, I am angry too, probably for different reasons, but, neither can discount the validity of that anger, you are angered by what you see as an affront to your ideals and have chosen quite rightly to do something about it, and for that you should be commended. But, do not underestimate the validity of the anger felt by those opposite who see/saw everything done in the name of socialism-lite by the previous government, because that anger will be slow to fade, and quite easily renewed if they perceive any chance of what they experienced being repeated.

The only way the ALP have a hope of returning to government within a decade is to remove almost everyone on its front bench, and I mean everyone. It literally needs to find someone new and start again.

PS: You don’t need to show restraint on my account, I can assure you I have heard far worse than you are likely to call me or say about anyone else.

john921fraserFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:42 pm

<

@Revo

An exceptionally good laugh at you tonight.

Good of you to expend so much of your miniscule intelligence on us.

Looking forward to your next installment of meaningless dribble.

Must say I especially liked this ….

"You don’t like Tony Abbott, or the Liberal Party, that’s fine, but they’re only a product of the system, they’ve managed to play the game better than their opponent, an opponent who is now barely clinging to life with less than 1/3 of the primary vote (and falling). It is all well and good for people to bang on about “One Term Tony” with plenty of conviction, but at some point you do have to face reality, that right now there is no plausible alternative that could beat him in an election within the ranks of the Parliamentary Labor Party, there just isn’t."

Without doubt that is your finest piece of bullshit today.

Matters not.February 11, 2014 at 11:49 pm

No, “we” as in the collective is used correctly, and no, you can’t opt out, because you can’t opt out of the system.

Dear oh dear. Such surety. Is this ‘system’ the planet, or simply your own construct?

You may decide to confront the system in order to force it to change, but that begs the question, have you changed the system

Perhaps you intended to say ‘raises’ the question. Yes I know it’s a form of pedantry’.

As for ‘have you changed the system’? Who decides? Or is that decision always down to you as the final arbiter?

Then we have:

we do not have citizen initiated referenda

I’m not sure if it’s a case of the ‘plot thickens’ or whether it’s a case of your agenda unravelling?

Will you now reveal that your whole agenda is simply driven by the Tea Party rationale.

You know. Come clean! Be honest! Perhaps just for once?

I’m told it’s therapeutic.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:55 pm

Ah Matters, not everything is a conspiracy or plot.

The system is the system, explore, create your own even.

As for your pedantry, “begs” is just as good.

Agenda, I have no agenda, I have no time for one. And my love of dentistry certainly keeps me out of the TEA Party crowd. (if you don’t get that joke you need to watch more of The Daily Show)

Kaye LeeFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:58 pm

“nothing within the system has changed in regards to the view of women”

Ummmmm….expansion of subject choice at school, acceptance into university courses, the right to keep working after marriage, equal pay, contraception and quasi-legal abortion, entry into male dominated careers like the military (as something other than a nurse), maternity leave, childcare, having your wage considered when going for a loan even if you are married and of child-bearing age (I am still pissed off with that bank manager)…..I could go on and on

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:10 am

Those things are only reflections of attitudes in the system, all the parts of the system that actually made all of that possible still exist. In-fact at the stroke of a pen every single thing you have gained can be taken away from you.

Just think, tomorrow morning Tony Abbott could walk into the Cabinet Room and write women out of the ADF by merely changing the regulations as per executive authority and have it signed off by the G-G by days end. Same goes for a whole bunch of other things, you could lose subsidised contraception at the stroke of a minister’s pen. (Changes to regulations do not require a new act of parliament be passed, many of the regulatory mechanisms that make the things we have managed to change can be undone by the executive at any time)

Yes, you’ve made the face of the system more palatable, but the underlying structure remains the same. Which was the point, none of its authority has been taken away, none of its powers have been taken away. You are every inch as vulnerable before the system today as you ever have been, we all are.

The authority the State has over you is mind-bending, and nothing we have done collectively over 100 years has changed that authority for our benefit.

Matters not.February 12, 2014 at 12:17 am

not everything is a conspiracy or plot.

Very insightful. A recent development, apparently. The ‘system’ isn’t totally controlling? Not sure who flicked the switch at that point.

Then we have:

The system is the system

Very insightful! LOL. About as useful as stating that ‘bullshit’ is ‘bullshit’. Still retreating BTW.

Then we have:

As for your pedantry, “begs” is just as good.

As always, you will decide. Demonstrates again, that the ‘system’ isn’t all powerful? Or are you contradicting yourself and failing to realise same? Probably.

Alan SmithFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:18 am

Much as I dislike Abbott, and his cabinet of ultra-conservatives (and the gang of rich entrepreneurs that give him his orders) one must make the point that he is really not to blame for this situation.

If you recall, there was a democratic and fair election held. There is no evidence whatsoever that this was in any way rigged, jerrymandered or otherwise. Nor did Abbott sail in any way under false colours. In fact, over and over, before the 2013 election he made his views quite plain. That he is an economic conservative, an elitist, a fundamentalist Christian, a racist and a homophobic.

And millions of swinging voters, despite knowing Abbott’s platform and ideals, nonetheless voted for him, simply because they didn’t like that Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd didn’t get on. They went out and voted against their best interests simply because Rupert Murdoch told them to. They ignored the respective policies of the two opposing contending parties, and cast their lot in with a party that made it plain they were going to declare war on the poor, the non-WASP, homosexuals, intellectuals, the arts, freedom of thought and expression, equality and fairness.

The lesson is this. A vote is a precious thing. And before you cast it, it’s as well to research thoroughly, rather than go ahead on the basis of half-cocked soundbites from commercial TV and shock-jock headlines from the Murdoch press.

To anyone who voted for the Coalition, and now resents the loss of their disability pension, the higher tax paid on their super, the loss of their job, inhumane persecution of refugees, discrimination against homosexuals, attacks on the ABC and other atrocities of the Abbott government, one phrase comes to mind.

BED. MADE. LIE.

And hopefully, the next time you are asked to vote, you’ll research a bit more thoroughly, instead of doing what Uncle Rupert tells you.

doctorrob54February 12, 2014 at 12:22 am

Back to earlier posts,Kaye’s description of our situation to be in a state of jihad is 100% correct.Be it in a spiritual or physical aspect,we are being smashed both ways.The only thing missing is the blood and the bombs.
In physical terms you will see more job losses,divorces,charities unable to cope with demand,alcoholism,all the negative things that happen in a society with no hope and long term security employment.
As for the spiritual side,well it is obviously the Catholic institution led by Pell/Abbott and faceless men with the same school tie.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:23 am

Matters, you’re applying your idea of what the system is, to what the system is, they may not be the same thing…

Yes, it was insightful, but accurate too.

Ah, but perhaps the system dictated that “begs” was a suitable substitute, perhaps that is the true nature of its perverse powers?

Only time will tel…

Kaye LeeFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:28 am

“the things we have managed to change can be undone by the executive at any time”

See you in court buddy! In case you were unaware, discrimination on the basis of gender is …what’s that word Tony so loves…ILLEGAL.

“You are every inch as vulnerable before the system today as you ever have been”

Ya reckon? Try me. Men have tried to tell women they are vulnerable for ever. I would suggest, sunshine, that men are the vulnerable ones because if women decide to down tools you guys are up shit creek.

Matters not.February 12, 2014 at 12:39 am

men are the vulnerable ones because if women decide to down tools you guys are up shit creek.

It’s been done before (hypothetically), but I’m not sure that ‘tools’ was the descriptor used in that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

Kaye LeeFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:45 am

Matters not,

When that is your only tool I guess you use what you have got. Nowadays we women have a full armoury at our disposal. Cutting off (my nose to spite my face) would be a last resort.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:48 pm

If that is all you have John you’ve already lost,

Newspoll: ALP Primary Vote -1 to only 30 points, on a downward trend. In-fact the Griffith by-election saw an extra-ordinary historical swing away from the opposition party, which when measured against other by-elections is near unheard of.

If you’ve actually got something to offer John, I am sure everyone here would like to hear it. (so to speak)

If not, I can suggest you find another sand-pit to play in, one that’s obviously nearer your intellectual maturity.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:50 am

And if men decide to down tools Kay? Then what happens? The reverse is as equally true and effective.

Also, there is nothing within the constitution to stop government exempting itself from discrimination legislation, in-fact it already has in regard to enlistment provisions for the ADF. Not only that, in regards to the ADF it can set the physical requirements for entry to such a standard that it would be impossible for all but a tiny few women to pass, and that would also be entirely legal. (In-fact, that can by done by legislative implement without parliament’s consent).

Same for removing funding for contraceptives, as funding isn’t applied equally to all forms of contraceptive there is no legal impediment to removing funding for them absolutely, and that can be at the stroke of the Health Minister’s pen at any time. Same for funding for quasi-legal abortions, gone in the stroke of a pen. Actually, the Federal Government can (if it were to be sneaky and rather legally risky) prohibit abortion tomorrow by adding it to the regulatory list of cruel and unusual punishments that it has out-lawed using its treaty powers. (It may be highly unlikely that it would survive a High Court Challenge, but it is possible) Or the government once it receives a majority in both houses simply legislates abortion out of existence by passing a law defining personhood as to include unborn children at a certain gestational period. (I am not saying that such a thing will happen, only that it could happen)

Everything women have achieved in the past 100 years in Australia can be undone, every legal protection (what few we have left) we have can be taken away or restricted, every right we think we have is circumvent able (and many already compromised) because at no point have we decided (or be allowed to decide) to add those beneficial changes to our society to be protected within the system by having them declared constitutionally protected.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:52 am

<

@Revo

"Newspoll" …. ha ha that's a good one.

Next !

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:56 am

<

Old Revo is really going off the deep end now.

But don't worry Revo, hard times are coming and you will get more than your fair share of "revolution" …. though I doubt very much that you will be seen.

Still you will be able to revel in the discomfort of others …. as usual.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:56 am

Poor John, unfortunately for him, every poll has shown that the ALP’s primary vote has not recovered from its record 100 year low in September.

Are you saddened by the prospect that Bill The Pie Man just can’t drag the ALP off the bottom? Though, I do suspect that poor old Bill has other more pressing concerns to face these days.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 12:59 am

<

@Revo

Poor old Bill …. such a wimp pretending he is relevant.

O ! sorry Revo obviously you thought I was a Shorten fan.

You silly, silly boy.

doctorrob54February 12, 2014 at 12:01 am

RC,you can’t be serious,so seriously pathetic.A captive of the system.No choice how it works,just choose who controls,not for whims of the majority,only to perform function of the institution.WHAT ARE YOU ON ?
So we are going to be f’ed one way or another whether we like it or not,and you would rather be shafted by Abbott.
Activism is the main element in changing the system,it is a way of changing attitudes.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:04 am

Only if more people were Shorten fans John, they might stand a chance of winning an election some time…

I, I am a great Shorten fan, the longer he stays leader of the ALP the longer the LNP stay in office.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:07 am

<

@Revo

Your so "short" sighted.

No wonder your posts are always so negative and depressing.

🙂

Kaye LeeFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:08 am

I am so tired of silly testosterone fuelled chest poking. I am also tired of totally crap hypotheticals. In many households women not only work but they still do the bulk of the child-rearing and housework and cooking etc. Let’s down tools together and see who lasts longest.

Degenerating to that level of argument tells me it’s time to go to bed.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:10 am

Kay, I would be the first person to line up at a polling booth to vote the protections for women into the constitution, if only those in-charge would give us such an option.

And indeed it is getting late…

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:11 am

John, it isn’t short-sighted, it is a great insurance policy, I am even considering joining the ALP so I can vote for Bill Shorten to remain as leader at the next leadership spill.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:14 am

<

@Revo

Oh I got the joke earlier.

Now you are just being childish …. perhaps you should go to bed and try getting up early for a change.

🙂

Alan SmithFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:15 am

I reckon the pair of you are secretly in love. Lot of slap kiss going on here. :^)

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:17 am

<

@AS

Highly unlikely because Revo doesn't even like himself.

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:20 am

John, how bored I would be… how bored I would be…

One can not afford to be serious all of the time, if we can not engage in humour, we’re just dying with only tears as memories…

Alan, John keeps me entertained and he certainly has interesting view on things.

Alan SmithFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:21 am

“Dying with only tears as memories” – beautiful phrase.

Marry me?

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:24 am

Sorry Alan, that is still illegal in this country… plus, my poor wife would not be impressed… hahaha 🙂

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:24 am

<

@Revo

Watch it AS … Revo is now trying to drag you in.

Well Revo how good is the Napthine government doing ?

The newman government support is collapsing daily.

And both of these States will punish Abbott.

Why don't you drag out your Newspoll again ?
🙂

Alan SmithFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:24 am

LOLLing like mad at rev now!

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:29 am

I’m neither a Victorian nor a Victorian, John, so I have no great affection for Napthine, from what I can gather he’s been less than effective and will probably not be re-elected. As for Newman, he was elected with such a massive majority that even if he stabbed puppies on live television he’d still get re-elected. There were certainly better candidates than him, but you deal with what you’re given.

Any ALP leader who faces Abbott at the next election would have to beat Rudd’s 2007 performance in beating Howard (Abbott beat Rudd by more seats than Rudd beat Howard by) and that just isn’t going to happen, and anyone who projects that happening has zero political credibility.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:32 am

<

@Revo

Then you should take a closer look at the voting numbers as opposed to the seats.

A swing against Abbott across a range of seats is minimal.

For him to be tossed out.
🙂

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:32 am

And how good does laughter feel?

Certainly we should have more of it.

By the way, the quote is an original of mine (as far as I know)

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:34 am

Such a swing is still highly unlikely, you’d still be talking the achieving one of the greatest land-slide wins ever, against a first term government.

It just won’t happen (and now that I have suitably jinxed the whole thing, if they lose it will be on me).

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:35 am

<

@Revo

How about that tour of the "Golden Circle" factory ?

http://www.goldencircle.com.au/

We could check out their EBA.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:36 am

<

@Revo

"Such a swing is still highly unlikely"

You really do just make things up.

You are sitting there in your spiders web completely disregarding the Australian population.
🙂

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:37 am

We could… we could…

Are you a pears man, or tinned apple?

Don’t tell me you’re a tinned apricot man, John, that would simply be too much…

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:40 am

I am not disregarding anyone, John

I am using a historical guide, such a thing would be a totally new phenomenon in Australian politics.

It just won’t happen, you’re talking about having 100 years of election trends being tossed on their head, again, it just won’t happen.

Sure, Labor could reduce them to a two term government but any talk of a one termer is just nonsense.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:40 am

<

@Revo

Once again you are showing your ignorance of what is canned in the Golden Circle factory at Northgate.

Just winging it as usual.

And getting caught out again.
🙂

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:41 am

Actually, I was just asking you a personal question, John, you read something into it that wasn’t there.

So, do you eat tinned apricots or not?

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:41 am

<

@Revo

Your "nonsense" is in believing you know what you are talking about.

And I don't just mean voting patterns.

🙂

revolutionarycitizenFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:43 am

The voting patterns are set in stone (pardon the pun), what you’re suggesting suggests to me that you’re a whole lot full of wishful thinking and running empty on statistical analysis…

It’s probably all the tinned fruit you’re eating…

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 1:44 am

<

@Revo

You're losing it again.

🙂

Stephen TardrewFebruary 12, 2014 at 2:52 am

Revo you have no idea what you are talking about. Complexity and systems theory are much better predictors of human behavior than human predilections derived from politics and economics. Value free detached observation suggested by Webber offers the grounds for observations based upon empirical evidence and while you bash on about politics and economics you do not set out the meta-theoretical basis for your beliefs. What are your meta-theoretical grounds for turning scientific proof into rational statements about the world.

Our cultural narrative, and I must say your narrative, is replete with metaphors derived from religious ideology, and because you are so deeply bound up in them and your own opinions, you cannot see the wood for the trees. Negating religion does not mean that you are not implicitly influenced by magical and mythical thinking. You duck and dive around issues like a magician who never discloses the theoretical foundations of your beliefs.

You may think this is disingenuous but the problem is most people do not have a cohesive meta-theory of their place in existence because the foundations of knowledge, truth and proof demand a vision of the organizational whole, the gestalt sum of its parts and not the minutia of subjective opinion. Reductionism in science does not get to the unified thing in itself. Now the deeper philosophical implications of science are nothing like the political and economic assumptions that abound in the public domain on the right or left. If you do not have a rounded understanding of physics, cosmology, mathematics, philosophy of mind, neurology, evolutionary theory, statistics and scientific methodology then you opinions are nothing other than value implicit fairy stories concocted to reinforce your particular prejudices.

To be fair this is not yours or anyone else fault because the universe unfolds the necessary pathways through the block time meta-matrix regardless of human opinions or values. So how do you conjoin the empirical facts of a largely deterministic universe with value implicit irrationality derived from early human magic mythology and religious phantasy.

Understanding relativity theory, the paradoxes in physics, cosmology and the problem of mathematical Platonism, and so on, places the mind in a realm of context that regular people do not get a chance to explore because of scientific exclusivity and elitism. Obviously the devaluation of science by religious nutters hides the facts behind ideological vacuous lies. How can we have any faith in people who believe in a brutal and punishing God.

The problem is that humans are a primitive species driven by visceral autonomic and subconscious drives evolved to protect us from tooth and claw yet these traits are completely dysfunctional in a milieu of cooperation, mutual sustainability maintenance of the ecosystem and reduction in global warming.

You see both you and I are victims of irrationality however you can either strive to understand your place in the world and accept that the only choice is the choice to goodness or you can keep floundering in the duality of good and evil.

So unless we have absolute knowledge we are all in some fundamental way flawed yet I and my fellow progressives have a vision of a world in which exploitation is reduced and resources are equitably distributed. We may still be struggling to set out a cohesive meta-theory but at least we know accept that unwarranted suffering and inequity is unfair. Now I could go on and demonstrate how such a meta-theory can be constructed but I doubt that the facts will alter your opinions simply because your style is overly assertive, verging upon aggressive, and it serves none of us to continue on with these negative and self defeating debates while the solution to suffering is an engineering solution and not a political or economic one.

We are the future primitives and if we can recognize the primitive elements of human dysfunction then we can effectively move into the future. However to repeat the same old mistakes bused upon some irrational belief in free markets is just plain stupid.

Stephen TardrewFebruary 12, 2014 at 2:53 am

My apologies for mistakes. Had dyslexia when younger and can proof read a dozen times yet still miss errors.

TracieFebruary 12, 2014 at 8:28 am

Stephen I don’t care about your mistakes. I love what you write. You are spot on each and every time. I always thoroughly enjoy your input, and agree with it in totality.

john921fraserFebruary 12, 2014 at 10:05 am

<

@Stephen

Nice comment.

But Revo is far less complicated than people might think.

Prejudiced and indoctrinated.

Your own childhood problem is a pointer to Revo and his behaviour.

Last night was an experiment to see how long/far he would go.

Nowhere near as far as I thought he might …. another disappointment.

He gets so close to understanding himself and then stops.

A fearful child trying to be someone else's idea of an adult.

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