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Maths is a marvellous thing

Like climbing mountains, maths is a marvelous thing. It is objective rather than a matter of opinion. It can’t be argued with. A fact is a fact.

But like many other powerful tools, maths can be used for evil in the hands of the unscrupulous.

Take our present government – please.

On a Liberal Party page called “The Prime Minister – securing Australia’s economic future” our fearless leader makes certain claims.

“When the Coalitions (sic) last left office, Australia had a $20 billion surplus and $50 billion in the bank but over six years, Labor squandered this and ran up five record deficits and a further $123 billion in projected deficits and gross debt headed towards $667 billion.”

Firstly, how many Coalitions do we have? There is the one with various forms of the National/Country party – are there other agreements I should know about?

Now, how about those numbers.

From the 06-07 Budget papers:

“Net debt, which reached zero in 2005-06, improved by $25.4 billion over the financial year to -$30.8 billion”.

From the 07-08 Budget papers:

“Over 2007‑08, the level of Australian Government net debt improved to reach ‑$42.9 billion by 30 June 2008”.

Labor won the election on November 24, 2007, so the Coalition left a net debt somewhere between -$30.8 and -$42.9 billion – not the $50 billion claimed by Mr Abbott.

In 2006-07, the Australian Government general government sector recorded an underlying cash surplus of $17.2 billion, not quite the $20 billion claimed but that could have been the case by the time of the election.

When Mr Abbott said we had $50 billion in the bank when these “Coalitions” left office he was speaking about net debt, albeit somewhat inaccurately. Gross debt is another matter. The Howard government never eliminated gross government, and never once since Federation has any government eliminated gross government debt. Nor should it and no government ever will. As at 30 June 2007, our gross debt was $58.284 billion.

In the first decade of the century, Australia struck it lucky. A voracious global appetite for commodities meant that we could sell unimaginable quantities of our mineral resources at unimaginable prices. The result was a windfall to our public coffers of at least $180 billion over and above long-term GDP growth trend over the six years from 2002 to 2008.

In 2001-02, a ton of exported thermal coal sold for around US$27. A ton of iron ore went for US$13. By 2008-09, these prices had reached US$131 and US$106, increases of fivefold and eight-fold respectively.

In 2001-02, we exported 90 million tons (mt) of thermal coal and 165 mt of iron ore. By 2008-09, these figures were 115 mt and 363 mt. Eight years into the decade, growth in exports of these two commodities alone were delivering an extra $49 billion in national income to Australia each year. The gold price increased by 600% from 2001 to 2011, while the value of our liquid natural gas exports almost doubled over the same period to $11.1 billion.

What Tony also fails to mention is that $61 billion of the reduction in net debt came from the sale of Publicly Traded Enterprises (PTEs) between 1993 and 2006.

Telstra $45.6 billion

Commonwealth Bank of Australia $6.8 billion

Airports $8.3 billion

Qantas $2.1 billion

Having a look at the profits of these companies (OK maybe not Qantas), one wonders whether we should have shown less haste in selling off our assets to reduce a debt that could have been paid off from the profits these companies make. We would also be able to afford a real NBN because we wouldn’t be paying Telstra billions for the privilege.

And it’s not like the Howard government stopped borrowing money. Even though they were raking money in from the mining boom and the sale of assets, including most of our gold reserve at rock bottom prices, the Howard government went to capital markets on no fewer than 400 occasions to borrow money.

Between March 1996 and November 2007, there were 135 lines of bonds that were taken to market in various bond tenders which were issued with a face value of $51 billion, while there were over 280 T-Note tenders with a face value of over $220 billion.

Indeed, in the three months before the November 2007 election, the Howard government went to the bond market on 8 separate occasions to borrow money with a series of bond tenders. Even during the election campaign, just 11 days from polling day, it borrowed an additional $300 million in bond tender number 236. In the final term of the Howard government, from October 2004 to November 2007, there were 43 bond tenders or times the government borrowed money. If we had tens of billions in the bank, why was he still borrowing right up until the death?

In its last five years, the Howard government spent $250 billion, including $133 billion in new spending and $117 billion in tax cuts. Australians could be sitting on a $300 billion sovereign wealth fund to rival the oil-rich nation of Kuwait if we had banked the budget windfall of the now deflating mining boom.

Compared with gross debt, net debt is a better measure of a government’s overall indebtedness as it also captures the amount of debt owed to the government. Which begs the question as to why Hockey and Abbott use net debt when referring to Howard and gross debt (projected in ten years’ time no less) when referring to Labor?

For some historical perspective, gross Australian Government debt increased from around 40 per cent of GDP in 1939 to around 120 per cent of GDP in 1945. By 1974, it had declined to around 8 per cent of GDP.

Net debt reached 10.4 per cent of GDP in 1985-86. It took only three years (from 1986-87 to 1989-90) to reduce net debt by around 6 percentage points of GDP.

Ignoring the war years, net debt peaked at 18.1% of GDP in 1995-96. According to Mr Hockey’s own budget, gross debt in May 2014 was $319 billion and, in 2014-15, net debt for the Australian government is estimated to be $226 billion (13.9 percent of GDP) as opposed to the $667 billion bullshit.

Tony tells us that Labor ran up 5 record deficits. Whilst this may be true if you look at scary numbers with lots of zeroes after them, it is completely false if we talk percentages of GDP. For example, the deficit in 83-84 was 4.2% of GDP, as was the peak deficit in 2010 at the height of the stimulus spending. Since 2010 the deficit has been decreasing and was 1.2% of GDP in 2013.

Then there is Tony’s claim that Labor left “a further $123 billion in projected deficits and gross debt headed towards $667 billion”.

This claim is based on MYEFO which can only be described as a Coalition propaganda sheet rather than any sort of realistic fiscal outlook so I will treat that document with the ignore which it deserves and go back to PEFO which was an independent assessment of our fiscal outlook just before the change of government, based on Labor policies.

According to PEFO, the cumulative underlying cash balance (total deficit) over the forward estimates was $54.6 billion with a surplus in 2016-17. Mr Hockey’s budget shows a cumulative deficit over the same period of $107.4 billion – a deterioration of $53 billion in 9 months, with no surplus predicted over the forward estimates.

Mr Abbott then goes on to say:

“Our plan will strengthen the economy, create jobs and reduce Labor’s debt by almost $300 billion. We need to take action now or an even greater burden will fall on our kids’ generation. Now, the Labor Party is desperately trying to scare people by spreading untruths about the Budget. For example, they won’t tell you that funding for schools and hospitals increases each and every year under our Budget. And that the rate of the pension will continue to go up twice a year, every year.”

By Mr Hockey’s own words, the debt is projected to rise to $226 billion in the next financial year – reduce Labor’s debt by $300 billion? I don’t think so.

And speaking of our kids, how about the danger you are placing them in, both physical and fiscal, by taking no action on climate change.

And what the Coalition won’t tell you is about the myriad of cuts to health and education and pensions. Yes, there will be increases on current funding each year but they will be much smaller than previously agreed to and many programs and concessions have been cut. They also do not take into account population increase which necessitates yearly increases in funding regardless of any reforms.

Joe Hockey said “Of the 17 top surveyed IMF countries, Labor left us with the fastest growth in spending of anyone in the world … and they left us with the third highest growth in debt of anyone in the top 17”. This is true if you look at percentage increases but if you spent $10 last week and then $20 this week, that represents a 100% increase, so these figures mean nothing without context.

Saul Eslake, chief economist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch, says Mr Hockey’s comments “represent only a partial summary of what the IMF actually says in this section of it its report”. He says Mr Hockey omits one important conclusion, “namely that Australia would still have the second-lowest general government net debt as a per cent of GDP among the countries shown by 2018”.

In its generally upbeat assessment of Australia’s economic position, the IMF says “gross debt is expected to peak at around 32 percent of GDP in 2015 and is among the lowest in advanced nations”.

Elsewhere, in the fund’s recommendations for Australia’s fiscal policy, it says “Australia’s modest public debt gives the authorities scope to delay their planned return to surpluses in the event of a sharp deterioration in the economic outlook”.

There is only one side of politics trying to scare people by spreading untruths. Maths doesn’t lie.

 

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140 comments

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  1. M-R

    Commented yesterday. Same goes.

  2. patsy

    if only the people understood what was really going on….thank you kaye your articals are so informative and truthful…if only abbott and co read them……maybe just maybe they would really know what the truth looks like…..and they call labor stupid !!!!!!!!

  3. john921fraser

    <

    @Kaye Lee

    I can't begin to tell you my disappointment in this Article of yours.

    Why ! … oh why Kaye Lee did it take you 32 paragraphs to get to "$627 billion".

    Joe Hockey can do it straight after he says …. "I thank the Member for blah blah".

    Kay Lee you did redeem yourself though …….. "There is only one side of politics trying to scare people by spreading untruths."

  4. Kerri

    You are so right Kaye Lee.
    When the Government spouts statistics it is better to look at the words NOT the numbers.
    Is essence you can take any set of numbers and twist them to suit your bent by including and ejecting stats that do and dont help your story.
    Similarly surveys can get any result they want by the wording of the questions.

  5. Kaye Lee

    I know john. I want to paint the $667 billion lie on the front door of Parliament House in letters a metre high. I have said it so often I hope my articles aren’t getting too repetitive. I try to give you a bit more ammo every time to shoot the BIG FAT LIE down.

  6. Matters Not

    Yes if one is looking for ‘truth’ then one must go to either ‘logic’ or ‘mathematics’. Science, for example. doesn’t give us ‘truth’ but ‘probabilities’ with degrees of confidence. Yet while ‘mathematics’ gives us ‘truths’, the problem them becomes what ‘meaning(s)’ will be given to same.

    How often do we see agreement on ‘facts’ and at the same time see great differences given, re the implications of those very same ‘facts’.

    And that’s the ‘truth’.

  7. bobrafto

    yea, maths is a wonderful thing if only the majority of the population can understand the mumbo jumbo of the figures and to understand the govt. doesn’t have a credit card.

    The LNP is force feeding the population with F E A R with a mythical $660B debt and we will all go down the gurgler.

    As the word fear entered my brain my thoughts meandered to witch doctors, who also used fear to maintain power and then my brain meandered to Abbott and I tried to visualize him as a witch doctor and instead Screaming Jay Hawkins exploded in my head with raucous laughter of his performance of ‘I put a spell on you’.

    Could this be our Tone, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGPhpvqtOc

    ENJOY!

  8. DanDark

    Love it Kaye, the cartoon tells it all LOL
    Just thought I would drop in and say
    “Time is precious, but the truth is more precious”

    Keep telling the truth, but Tone’s has the country by the balls I am afraid
    He is still running us into the ground and will continue to, because he as the power
    I have dealt with a man like him, and we will never win
    they keep the power for years and years, with the help of their enablers,
    money, lies on lies, even murder to shut someone up who knows the truth about them

    I am winding my life own, cant afford piano lessons now for my 8 yr old GIRL,
    paid teacher, and pulled her out
    and she is losing money then, no students, no money, rich get poorer LOL
    Taken her out of school, no point now, the standard of education has been declining in this country for years
    thanks to gov policies, public schools are finished, they will become a distant memory in this country
    Well whats left anyways in VIc after Kennett closed many down, and railway stations etc
    Kennett faaarked this state in 90s, oh but left us with “Jeffs shed” lucky us LOL

    I have got me house on market, have quit all my jobs, except for one
    cos as I see it, having an insight into the future,
    there is no future for kids and women in this country
    the old rusted on oligarchs and rich liarbils left, can clean up their own shit up:)
    Take care AIMN….

  9. Stephen Tardrew

    Kaye thank you again for a great and well put together article. The facts are undeniable and a clear indication that maths and logic have been thrown out the window in the face of fear and cowardice. Only cowards revert to lies to save their privileged position while blaming those who can least afford it.

    The right are morally corrupt. To lie is to corrupt the truth and there has been so much lying that the public have no idea what truth is anymore. The scary thing is these fools know the maths, they know the truth, yet they willingly lie and deceive.

    In my mind they have stepped over a morally responsible boundary in a reprehensible attack on those who struggle to make ends meet.

    This is beyond the pale. Yes Kaye things really are that bad.

    These people are immoral liars lacking any sense of probity and sympathy for others.

    I am disgusted.

  10. Kaye Lee

    Letter to the Herald:

    “What is it with Tony Abbott in his inability to accept manifest truths if they don’t suit him? He continues to deny established climate science. More recently, he has denied breaking published pre-election promises, and today he has denied that his budget hits the poor and protects the rich (“PM rejects analysis showing poor worst hit”, May 23). I fear we have elected a leader with a particular deficiency, maybe something like anosognosia. He needs help”

    Anosognosia is viewed as a deficit of self-awareness, a condition in which a person who suffers certain disability seems unaware of the existence of his or her disability. Anosognosia results from physiological damage on brain structures. Whilst this distinguishes the condition from denial, which is a psychological defense mechanism, attempts have been made at a unified explanation. Both anosognosia and denial are almost always connected with damage in the right hemisphere.

  11. Kaye Lee

    And continuing on the delusional ideological disconnect from reality and truth

    “Senator Abetz is urging employers and unions to act responsibly when negotiating new pay deals.

    “If this is not done then we risk seeing something akin to the wages explosion of the pre-accord era when unsustainable wage growth simply pushed thousands of Australians out of work,”

    And then there’s the truth, which happens to be the exact opposite, but why let the facts come into it.

    “The worries about a wage blowout have been shown to be utterly misconceived, and for the decade ahead the real concern should be about wage collapses and the rise in inequality that will follow”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-28/jericho-id-wager-our-earnings-arent-too-high/5480428

  12. donwreford

    I commented on a entirely different site on mathematics, as all what I read on mathematics been praising this discipline, I commented that I disagreed, that in fact mathematics can and is used as a evil tool, I suggest the area of engineering is also in question, military is all part of mathematics and engineering, the expose on this discipline has hardly been touched, I am sure the reader can think of many example’s of how mathematics have been a curse in their life if not a handicap.

  13. Don Winther

    There is Maths and there is Accounting, two entirely different things.

  14. Don Winther

    1 million seconds = 12 days ( 11.5 )
    1 billion seconds = 32 years

    So was that $1 million or $1 billion Tony?

  15. Kaye Lee

    “There is Maths and there is Accounting”

    kinda like there is the legal system and there is justice.

  16. DanDark

    This I off the maths subject Kaye
    But Liar Morrisons pretend sympathy the other day
    and the supposed truth as to what happened at Manus
    after he very quickly came out to tell us lies, as quick as he could back in Feb
    “the animals are rioting and its their own fault they were
    injured and killed,if they break out of the center,bullshit
    bullshit and more bullshit now from Morrison and is crap findings

    Morrison and co orchestrated riot, purely for political points, they had the script ready for the press release
    But it backfired, when they let the most brutal police force in the world into Manus on the unarmed asylum seekers
    I will post a couple of letters I wrote to Morrison and the J Bitchsop

    Scott Morrison
    You are sub-human You are a disgrace, and bringing this country down Its all falling apart for you though yep Its your responsibility and your fault that young man died at Manus at the hands of barbarian you hired,
    Manus is an experiment on human misery by your gov
    Sounds a bit like Hitler did in his concentration camps “Time is precious, but the truth is more precious’

    There is a protest organized against you and your heinous gov March in March
    why are your such a liar? and demonize Asylum seekers at every chance you get,
    even lying about Manus as soon as you could they are not criminals as you want people to believe,
    it has won you votes off the back of the racist and bigots like you Sir
    But they are even dropping off like flies now No one wants to be on a losing side, and you are losing You are an evil man, just Abbotts enforcer and involved in crimes against humanity, and it will catch up on you sir,

    I hope the ghost of Mr Barati haunts you and your phony gov for the rest of your lives
    Have a great day Sleep well, MONSTER MORRISON
    Regards
    Dan
    26/2/2014

    You are trying to blame the Labor party Miss Bishop now,
    because of the disgrace you and Monster Morrison caused to Navy

    The secrecy has not paid off has it Miss
    Someone died
    And its all looking like an inside job
    You know, a set up,
    but it back fired and a young man died

    The animals are rioting rhetoric.
    demonizing humans in need
    you and your gestapo flap on about
    the same old same old

    You Liberals all need to take responsibility for That young mans death
    The entire liberal Government have blood on their hands
    So dont defend your tin pot general with his shiny badges, he is the enforcer, that’s all
    And the Aussie people know he is embroiled in a “political cover up”

    There is a protest march country wide
    March in March, a no confidence vote in Abbotts Government, this means you too Miss

    Running to Cambodia looking to put asylum seekers in a worse position than they are at Manus Island.
    Do you even have any sense of decency left.

    You have destroyed yourselves
    but you have taken your dictatorship to the level of despicable tyranny

    Enjoy your retirement from parliament,
    I think it will be a lot sooner than you could of imagined
    Have a great day Miss.

    Regards
    Dan

  17. Kaye Lee

    PETA CREDLIN: “Three Brazilian soldiers have just been killed:”

    TONY ABBOTT: “Oh no! That’s terrible……how many is a brazillion again?”

  18. Stephen Tardrew

    Kaye:

    Abetz is aiding and abetting the entrenched dishonesty of political party in rapid moral decline. What are the implications. One would hope some form of accountability however the opposition must stop quacking on about the speakers office and do a full frontal on the big bad lies. They need a single line of relentless attack. Where the hell have the spin doctors gone.

    Wages explosion! That’s got to be the laugh of the century along with the scary inflation and debt monsters. When you think they are done they just keep piling the detritus higher and higher in an attempt to drown us in incoherent irrationality and unfounded misinformation.

    These guys just don’t know when to give up and show some restraint.

  19. john921fraser

    <

    @Kaye Lee

    Even if you painted "$667 billion" in letters big enough to stretch between Parliament Hill and the War Memorial people would think that Hockey was telling the truth.

    I wonder how long it takes before it becomes an ear worm.

  20. Jan Dobson

    Just to follow up with Don Winther. There is maths, there is accounting and there is economics. While I think it is good for everyone to be numerically literate, wouldn’t it be great if we had politicians and media who could be trusted to have a frank, open and above all honest discussion of these matters.

    An excellent article although can I suggest a key (or links) for those who are new to the jargon of economics?

  21. Kaye Lee

    The truly terrifying thing Stephen, is that a quick trip to the Liberal Party facebook page (where I am no longer able to comment) shows that many people are swallowing this crap. How truly cruel to lie to people who trust you purely for your own ambition.

  22. Rob Alan

    “There is Maths and there is Accounting”

    ‘kinda like there is the legal system and there is justice.’
    Yes Kaye,

    Aside from growing trends I see toward cooperatives, salary based rule of law operates in every workplace. Your income tells you who’s ass you can kick. Your income also tells you who’s ass’s you may not kick.

    Pick any authoritarian system and it’s all about obedience to income regime rules.

  23. bobrafto

    Loved this!

    This lot are already so low they could parachute out of an earthworm’s bum

    enjoy!

  24. Don Winther

    Tony Abbott ” I got one the other day, it really hurt.”

  25. Don Winther

    bobrafto

    Thanks for the laugh 🙂 Liked that.

  26. Neil of Sydney

    This post is a load of deceit/falsehood

    “The Howard government never eliminated gross government,

    So what?? They could have if they wanted to. The decision was made to continue lending/borrowing money because some organizations like Superannuation Funds like to put their money into low risk govt bonds. So the Howard govt borrowed the money and then reinvested it. So we had gross debt but no net debt in 2007. Howard/Costello wanted to keep the bond market open. It was the advice they received.

    In 2001-02, a ton of exported thermal coal sold for around US$27. A ton of iron ore went for US$13. By 2008-09, these prices had reached US$131 and US$106, increases of fivefold and eight-fold respectively.”

    Even more deceit. Why did you stop in 2008??? Here is the Index of Commodity Prices

    http://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/commodity-prices.html

    Prices and volume exported exploded after Rudd won office. There was nothing like the boom during the Rudd/Gillard term in Australian history. same goes for the terms of trade. Highest ever during Rudd/Gillards time in office.

    Deceit is a marvellous thing

  27. Don Winther

    Neil of sydney

    “So what?? They could have if they wanted to. The decision was made to continue lending/borrowing money because some organizations like Superannuation Funds like to put their money into low risk govt bonds. So the Howard govt borrowed the money and then reinvested it.”

    So Whats Abbott so worked up about?

    We are all saying “So What ” except abbott and Hockey. A scare campaign?

  28. jimhaz

    Iron ore is till $122 US dollars per tonne. This is still a minimum of triple the price when investments were made (more likely 5 times). So they are still making a motza over what they may have considered a good investment in the early 00’s.

    Perhaps the price will fall further due to over-investment increasing supply over demand but it will not go below $60 due to incredible and unfinished Chinese demand. $60 per tonne is still double the 2005 value.

    The loss of the original super profits tax will be a massive loss to Australia, now the production is ramping up and the investment depreciation preventing super profits taxation during the ALP term has mostly been cleared off the books.

    All this money going OS to rich shareholders.

    http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=iron-ore&months=180

  29. Neil of Sydney

    “So Whats Abbott so worked up about?

    Because we now have gross and net debt starting to explode

    “In the final term of the Howard government, from October 2004 to November 2007, there were 43 bond tenders or times the government borrowed money. If we had tens of billions in the bank, why was he still borrowing right up until the death
    ?”

    Because some organisations like Superannuation Funds like to park their money in ultrasafe govt bonds. So Howard/Costello made the decision to continue to borrow money even though they did not need to and then reinvested the borrowed money in shares etc.

    Deceit is a marvellous thing

  30. DanDark

    Peoples Neil from Sydney is a bot, not real person
    Not sure how liberals are doing it, but it’s a bot
    Not a real person
    If people ignore it, it will go away
    It responds automatically, it has no brain, it’s a bot

  31. Don Winther

    They have also dropped import duty on cars 5% = $1 billion which should have been 30% =$6 billion and destroyed our auto manufacturing industry and local manufacturing in general $?billion by signing ONE SIDED free trade deals with Korea, China and Japan. Hundreds of thousands of direct and indirect jobs lost $? billion. What are they up to ??

  32. Don Winther

    Melbournes biggest export is empty shipping containers

  33. Don Winther

    @DanDark

    “It responds automatically, it has no brain, it’s an Abbott”

  34. DanDark

    ROFL
    You got it Don, it’s a Ab bot

  35. Don Winther

    The only reason I am sitting here at work writing all this shit is because I run a manufacturing business in Melbourne supplying the auto and general industry and since Abbott shut down local manufacturing we have no work, my staff are on indefinite leave and I cant get a pension.
    Any answers Neil from sydney?? Have you got any work Neil ??

  36. Stephen Tardrew

    Kill off consumer confidence now that’s going to help. Remove income and shrink the economy. God who did that in Europe let me guess? Things going swimmingly there hey? US wonderful example of neocon deregulation. Howard who tagged along behind Bush and destroyed Iraq. Trust him he was a good guy. You think we have no memories? Now I think it may have been the banks that caused the GFC and deregulation didn’t that go down a treat. And now we are going to have more of the same by the same dunderheads who brought about this disaster. I seem to remember the GFC was in 2008 and Australia is one of the few countries that can be proven empirically to have survived in tact.

    Have you read any of the alternative budget suggestions on this site that would not do untold damage to the less well off?What about PEFO as opposed to fake MYEFO. Abbott jumping onto the Tea Party religious far right magical thinking. Lets just beat the hell out of the poor and marginalized and completely throw the moral compass out of the window. Economic rationalists. And we great brainy economists cannot think our way out of a paper bag. Yeah right you really impress me. You cannot put bandages on a lemon and hope all is going to be well. Just screw the poor and underprivileged.

    The cycles have to stop and relying upon backward referring conservative failure is going to help? What do you think we are just more of your dyed on lackey surfs. No we want originality and change not more of the same crap. Go play with your decrepit neoconservative buddies.

    You may have noticed I am as mad as hell.

  37. DanDark

    I am from Vic too, and this state is stuffed
    I have stopped spending, I have taken all my money out of banks
    I have taken my little one out of piano lessons and schooll
    I am just paying bills, gas, electricity, rates, food
    Until I sell my little bit of Australia, my house
    And get away from hitler and co ASAP

    I knew when car industry went, we were stuffed
    Tone!s plan of destruction started working the day
    He killed our car industry and all industries connected to it
    a few months ago

  38. Lost2

    Yes Tony and Co are getting scared of Independent Newspapers, and even worse it’s online, away from theirs and Murdoch’s control, sales of papers sold under the Murdoch flagship are falling drastically, people are turning away from being fed bullshit, mistruths and lies. So now the spin doctors employed to scour the electronic media, have been given clear orders, seek and destroy, spread the lies, the deception, the mistruths, paint the Lieberal Noalition as the saviours, the adults, the people to trust, for the rich to get richer and bugger the poor, they are just lazy buggers who don’t want to get of their arses, to work for slave wages and be thankful they have the rich look after them, from the trickle down economics.

  39. Don Winther

    Pure arrogance and ignorance. He is an idiot but he is not stupid, he is up to something.

    “It responds automatically, it has no brain, it’s an Abbott”

  40. Bacchus

    So now the spin doctors employed to scour the electronic media, have been given clear orders, seek and destroy, spread the lies, the deception, the mistruths, paint the Lieberal Noalition as the saviours, the adults…

    Hmmm – does this explain the sudden appearance of “Terry” and ‘Kdub” and their ilk? 😉

  41. Neil of Sydney

    “What Tony also fails to mention is that $61 billion of the reduction in net debt came from the sale of Publicly Traded Enterprises (PTEs) between 1993 and 2006.”

    Even more deceit. I think deceit and lefties go together.

    He fails to mention it because it the statement is a load of crap. Furthermore Howard was not even in power in 1993. Keating was.

    Once again and i am sick of saying this. Costello ran $100B in surplus budgets AND $80B in asset sales.
    This enabled the debt to be paid off and a $80B Future Fund to be started.

    You can shuffle the money around anyway you want. You can say asset sales went off in to paying off the debt and surplus budgets went in the FF or the other way around.

    But people who say asset sales paid off the debt are wrong. It was a combination of asset sales and surplus budgets.

  42. DanDark

    Spot on Bacchus
    So how has your day been good I hope
    Bit of sun down here in Vic today
    Just ignore the bots,
    The “Abbotts” are panicking
    The great messiah Tone’s cannot walk on water as he claims LOL

  43. bobrafto

    Don

    It just didn’t make sense to me that monies for the car industry was cut with the loss of your job and thousands of others while we give the miners who are making handsome profits, billions in subsidy.

    One thing can be sure, this govt is not governing for all the people.

  44. Don Winther

    It took 64 years to build GMH in Australia and Tony 4 months to destroy it. It started years ago but he stuck the knife in so I will remember him for that.
    I guess I could be a politician $507,000 plus entitlements etc for life. Im good at bullshit but I havent had much chance to use it because you cant bullshit in manufacturing it is either right or its wrong thats it not half right, maths is maths.
    What happens when China says we dont like your politics Australia, we cant make a washing machine, a TV, and more importantly a refrigerator or a car. We have lost our independence that we almost had. We would have to change our politics to suit them but at the moment they do like our Tony.

  45. Kaye Lee

    Neil,

    There is nothing worse than someone who stubbornly reposts the same things year after year after year without ever addressing the facts let alone the ongoing discussion. Tell me Neil….what was the debt when the Coalition formed government? Just answer that one question for me please.

  46. DanDark

    Oh Kaye is going for the”gotcha moment”
    And the answer will be from Neil?

  47. Don Winther

    @bobrafto

    I havent lost my job yet, I have some work and I can sit here for a while longer because I have to, I have a factory full of machines but my workers are in a different situation they have only bills to pay and no work. I told them if they have to rob and steal to survive I will drive them to Tony Abbotts house so they can rob and plunder his home and not rob some poor innocent person that is also just trying to survive in the Lucky Country.

  48. Kaye Lee

    Dan,

    It is the question I wish every Labor politician and every journalist would ask. Sadly, asking Neil will just get a repost of something about Howard.

  49. john921fraser

    <

    Todays word of the day from the Abbott gang is …. deceit.

    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
    George Orwell (1903-1950)

    For some unknown reason the evangelical extreme right come onto this sight and practice their deceit.

    Perhaps its their fear of the truth.

  50. Neil of Sydney

    “There is nothing worse than someone who stubbornly reposts the same things year after year after year without ever addressing the facts let alone the ongoing discussion.”

    Absolutely. How many times have you posted this??

    “If we had tens of billions in the bank, why was he still borrowing right up until the death?

    Howard kept borrowing because he wanted to keep the bond market open. Some organisations like to park their money in low risk govt bonds. So Howard borrowed the money and then reinvested it. That is why Howard could say he had gross debt but no net debt.

    “Tell me Neil….what was the debt when the Coalition formed government?

    If you are talking about in 1996 it was 18% of GDP and rapidly increasing. In a remarkable achievement Costello took this to -3.8% of GDP in 2007. Yes that is right it was less than zero.

    Hand over to Swan in 2008 and in no time flat Swan took it from -3.8% of GDP to 10% of GDP. One of the fastest turn arounds ever.

    We now have one of the fastest increases of debt in the Western World. And if not for Costello, debt would be at 60% of GDP.

  51. Kaye Lee

    Don,

    When you say you will drive them to Tony’s home, would that be his home in Warringah or Kirribilli House or the Lodge or the mansion we rented for him that he refused to move into or the Police Academy where he stays for $110 a night (waiting in eager anticipation to see how much he claims in “entitlements” for that)

  52. Don Winther

    Shit Kaye Lee I thought you were writing about me.

    “There is nothing worse than someone who stubbornly reposts the same things year after year”

    Oh and I was told that Neil is a bot

    “It responds automatically, it has no brain, it’s an Abbott”

  53. Kaye Lee

    How many times have you posted this??

    “If we had tens of billions in the bank, why was he still borrowing right up until the death?”

    I have written it once, you have reposted it twice, and if you count this, I have reposted it once.

    “Howard kept borrowing because he wanted to keep the bond market open.”

    Did his borrowings cost us interest? Do we do what is right for “organisations” like super companies and Tony’s rich mates or do we decide what is best for the country? I am not judging whether the borrowing was justified or not…just stating that the “live within your means” mantra is crap from naïve people who do not understand government finances.

    And once again I ask

    Tell me Neil….what was the debt when the Coalition formed government?

    I note that while quoting me you failed to answer me. If you aren’t Tony Abbott then you could be.

  54. Totaram

    Neil of Sydney:

    “Because we now have gross and net debt starting to explode”

    That is indeed deceit!

    No economist of repute will agree with that and figures comparing with other countries (as a % of GDP) bear that out. And as the article points out, Mr. Hockey has added to the debt (deliberately).

    On the other hand, you have used the word “deceit”, but haven’t pointed out anything untrue about the statement you quoted. viz.

    “The Howard government never eliminated gross government,(debt)”

    Obviously your understanding of the word “deceit” works differently in different contexts! Please do think about it.

  55. DanDark

    Yep Kaye, a lot of cut and pasted from others comments
    He is picking on you tho
    So stay calm, strong and carry on..
    A bot has no brain, nor heart, nor any idea about anything really
    Cuts and pastes, same as pre schoolers do, any early form of learning
    For an uneducated brain, still forming like his Kaye

  56. Stephen Tardrew

    Don

    Gee Don ain’t guilt a marvelous thing. We might let you off though seeing you fessed up.

    Now as for that other bloke I don’t know.

    Decided: just piss him off.

  57. Carol Taylor

    Neil addressing Kaye Lee,

    “There is nothing worse than someone who stubbornly reposts the same things year after year after year without ever addressing the facts let alone the ongoing discussion.”

    Absolutely. How many times have you posted this??

    Kaye Lee, Neil’s theory (tried and true and utilised so many times over the past umpteen years that it would be impossible to estimate, although Migs gave it his best shot 😉 ) is that if you say something over and over and produce the same (dis-proven) ‘evidence’ over and over that just one day..somewhere and somehow, it will actually become fact.

    However, Neil is an old friend and we give him credit for trying..sometimes he’s VERY trying. 😉

  58. Don Winther

    Kaye Lee I dont want to steal from the Australian people. Does he own a home of his own. He only worked for a couple of years so it wont be much good.

  59. Kaye Lee

    He has a place in Warringah. When his salary dropped by $70,000 pa when Howard lost the election he borrowed $700,000. This was not to buy the place…this was to maintain his lifestyle. Oh the hypocrisy.

  60. Möbius Ecko

    Police Academy where he stays for $110 a night

    Kaye Lee haven’t got the links to hand but he’s spending a considerable amount doing them up and I think I read that included adding or refurbishing another room for himself. He’s also got a room near his parliamentary office converted to a private gym.

    If you read the budget, and I admit I haven’t read this bit yet, but buried in the small stuff is the fact the budget increased the cost of Abbott’s residents and living expenses at double the rate of CPI where all other cost like those for aged pensions, veterans and the disabled were reduced to below CPI.

    But you will never hear the likes of Neil ever mention Abbott’s costs, like being the most expensive LOTO in our history, costing more than the PM at the time, or Neil mentioning Abbott’s rorts in claiming expenses that makes all others pale to frugality, nor the significant costs Abbott has incurred to the tax payer since he became PM. All things Neil would have railed against if Labor had done a a mere fraction of.

    Nor will you ever see Neil answer to Abbott’s now considerable and growing list of blatant lies and deceits, nor those of the rest of the Liberals including Howard, also a massive liar.

  61. Möbius Ecko

    Oh and to pre-empt his response. Labor.

  62. Fed up

    Poor Neil, he hates, or is it fears numbers. Has trouble with all.

    Wonder what happened to Madam Speaker this day., Acted a little like a reasonable speaker. I believe Pyne might have taken them to the brink of the Abyss yesterday. Someone has got through to her, id not Pyne.

    The look o Hockey’s face when Madam speaker pulled hum into line, was s sight to see. Hope someone has taken a photo.

  63. Fed up

    MPI on education., Brandis being put through the wringer over the many RC.

  64. Neil of Sydney

    “Did his borrowings cost us interest? Do we do what is right for “organisations” like super companies and Tony’s rich mates or do we decide what is best for the country?”

    Well of course the borrowings cost us interest. But it was reinvested.

    I think you will find the bond market was kept open for the good of the country and economic stability.

    “Tell me Neil….what was the debt when the Coalition formed government?

    I told you. It was at 18% of GDP and rapidly increasing in 1996 and now it is at 10% of GDP and rapidly increasing.

    Just imagine if Keating had won in 1996?? Debt went from 5% of GDP to 18% of GDP under Keating and would have tripled again if he was not thrown out. So we would have hit the GFC with debt at 60% of GDP.

    We should all be grateful to Costello and what he did.

  65. Kaye Lee

    So Neil, do you accept that when Tony and Joe say that Labor left a debt of $667 billion they are in fact lying by about $450 billion?
    “in 2014-15, net debt for the Australian government is estimated to be $226 billion”

  66. Don Winther

    At least he is a consistent hypocrite. How much is his fully imported push bike worth, na I want one that is Made in Australia and I bet he drives an Imported BMW, dont want it. Guess my workers could sleep in our factory like they do in China, we have a free trade agreement so I guess we now have a leaves playing field. Whats ok in China is OK in Australia except for work safe and a thousand other industrial laws they dont have in China. Another one sided deal. Shit we cant win!!

  67. Don Winther

    Sorry typo:- Level playing field

  68. Stephen Tardrew

    Mobious Echo echo echo echo…….

    Police Academy isn’t that where Leslie Neilson’s Ghost roams.

    Tony the joka might be infected with slapstick ether.

    It may explain his total lack of grasp upon reality.

  69. DanDark

    I rang Cheshire chesters office yesterday and said

    ” if I get any sort of advertising nazi propaganda from Tone’s
    About his budget full of pain and misery, I will put some advertising about his brother that is principal of local secondary college, Wayne Chester, on the back of it, photo copy it
    and spread some joy for his reputation around town
    until about 2 weeks ago he had a pedophile working at his school as a teacher,
    But is being kept very quiet that he has been exposed, so don’t push it will you, thankyou”

    they know I know, and it’s the Truth, in chesters office, but it dosnt surprise me,
    Pedophiles are as common as snakes in the country, and with the budget, it will be open slather for the rock spiders on the young and vulnerable of this country with disastrous consequences for the whole country

  70. Neil of Sydney

    I think you will find that without any action taken that is what we are heading towards ($667B). I am not sure he said Labor left $667B in debt. It is a projected figure.

    But labor must have racked up about $250B of debt in 6 years. because we started at approx. -$50B and it is now $220B. An those are net figures. Gross debt would be different.

  71. DanDark

    Lol Stephen
    Slapstick,I am sure alot of Aussies would love to slap that smug prick Tone ‘s
    With a big stick, and that’s a lot of sticks, millions even lol

  72. Kaye Lee

    Neil,

    I hate to destroy your idol but here is the quote from the Prime Minister of Australia government page

    “Over six years, Labor ran up a $667 billion debt on the nation’s credit card. ”

    No future projection mentioned. And why say a possible debt in ten years time….why not go the whole hog and tell us the debt in 2050? Get real Neil….Abbott, Hockey and that silly Cormann are all liars.

  73. RalphG

    Neil said:

    “I think you will find the bond market was kept open for the good of the country and economic stability.”

    No Neil, the bond market was kept open for the good of the bond buyers. It was just another form of corporate welfare. Australian Government bonds are not a low risk investment, they are a zero risk investment.

    Neil also said:

    “I told you. It was at 18% of GDP and rapidly increasing in 1996 and now it is at 10% of GDP and rapidly increasing.”

    Where do you get that data from? According to tradingeconomics.com, Australia’s government debt was at around 30% of GDP and falling from a high of around 32% in 1995. The same site indicates that the current debt is around 20% of GDP.

  74. Kaye Lee

    Ralph,

    This is what happens when you use net debt for one government to compare to projected gross debt for another. It’s just a dog’s breakfast. Trading economics shows gross debt (I think). Net debt is a better measure of fiscal position- I don’t know why they don’t all use it. Well actually yes I do. Gawd I hate politics.

  75. Fed up

    ME. he also has a cook near his rooms that is employed to cook meals for him. By the way, no facilities at the Academy, but there is one half staff, to keep his room clean.

    His meals are cooked by a chef at government house. What us wrong with the parliamentary dining rooms?

    I wonder whose bank account that $700,000 ended up in.

  76. Fed up

    Neil, I was reminded of the $1000 Howard handed out to pensioners, a bribe for the, then up coming election. Yes $1000.

  77. RalphG

    Thanks Kaye, that makes sense.

  78. Stephen Tardrew

    Kaye your endless tolerance of whacky ideologues is admirable and maybe, just maybe, a smidgen might get through. One can only live in hope.

  79. Fed up

    Yes, Neil, I do believe we are heading for massive debt. That is what happens when one kills consumer confidence, sending budget into few fall. Yes high unemployment plays havoc with the budget bottom line.

    Yes, and with the low interest rates, we do not have much wriggle room to take remediate action.

    Wonder if we could end up, with what Howard as treasurer delivered., Yes, it was called stagflation. High inflation. High unemployment., That one takes some doing. Left a massive black hole for Keating and Labor to clear up. Was only beginning to get on top of it, when Howard came back as PM.

    Recall all those, how many interest rates rises during Howard’s PMshjp?

  80. Fed up

    and what cannot be denied, is the record private debt, that Howard left behind. Now we have Abbott and co transferring government debt and responsibilities onto the individual

    The changes to university alone is going to leave many with huge personal debt. Yes, this even before marriage, buying a home or setting oneself up in business.

    In many partnerships, there will be two huge debts, taken it to the new family,

    Private debt good,. Government debt bad,.

    This government is saving nothing, It is just transferring the deb t, along with it’s responsibilities to the individual.

    The government, today has changed it tack back to the bogus debts.

  81. RalphG

    “We should all be grateful to Costello and what he did.”

    Would you please refrain from making comments like that. I almost sprayed coffee all over my computer screen.

  82. Neil of Sydney

    “Get real Neil….Abbott, Hockey and that silly Cormann are all liars.”

    What about Swan???

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/speech/html/speech.htm

    The four years of surpluses I announce tonight are a powerful endorsement of the strength of our economy, resilience of our people, and success of our policies…………..This Budget delivers a surplus this coming year, on time, as promised, and surpluses each year after that, strengthening over time.

    Wayne Swan Budget Speech 2012.

    Also i think you will find that $667B in debt is a 10 year projection. We will have $460B of debt in 4 years and $667B in 10 years if Labor was not thrown out.

  83. Kaye Lee

    Neil you really aren’t worth my time but have a blast living in your version of the past won’t you. As a farewell gesture, here’s a tip for you….look at PEFO for some truth.

  84. Neil of Sydney

    “Neil you really aren’t worth my time

    Well you learned one thing. The Howard govt continued to borrow money because some organisations eg Super Funds want to lend money to the govt to have a low risk deposit. I am sure some people also invest in govt bonds.

  85. Kaye Lee

    What did you learn Neil?

  86. corvus boreus

    Neil, you should known that when you are going to talked, you shouldn’t mix your past, present and future participles.

  87. Casablanca

    Kaye, Another great article. There are several Coalitions – Libs+Nats; LNP+IPA; LNP+BCA; LNP+2GB; LNP+Murdoch to mention the obvious ones.

  88. Michael Taylor

    Casablanca, they all add up to eleventy. 😉

  89. Neil of Sydney

    “Kaye, Another great article

    No it wasn’t. It was full of falsehoods. Here is another one

    “What Tony also fails to mention is that $61 billion of the reduction in net debt came from the sale of Publicly Traded Enterprises (PTEs) between 1993 and 2006.

    For a start Howard was not in power in 1993. I notice lefties like to make out Costello paid off debt by asset sales. FALSE. Lefties like Koukoulas always forget about the $80B in the Future Fund

    Costello paid off $96B of debt he inherited and established an $80B FF. Costello did this by a combination of surplus budgets ($100B) and asset sales ($70B)

  90. Kaye Lee

    Neil, what does Howard have to do with the comment that debt was paid down by asset sales? Your comment is a total non-sequiter. Are you saying that we didn’t sell those assets? In what way is my comment false? Do you ever move to the present or think about the future or are you irrevocably stuck in the Howard years?

    And as for the Future Fund, there is a strong argument that that was a waste of money.

    https://www.cis.org.au/images/stories/policy-monographs/pm-126.pdf

    I will try once more….

    Do you agree that when the PM says Labor ran up a debt of $667 over 6 years after being left $20 billion in the bank it is a downright lie deliberately falsified to fool people about the current state of our economy to justify his class warfare? One is net debt, the other is projected gross debt in ten years time under Coalition policies. Your hero is a liar.

  91. Neil of Sydney

    Debt was not paid down by asset sales only. It was paid down by a combination of asset sales AND surplus budgets. Costello ran $100B in surplus budgets from 1996-2007.

    The FF was started up to fund the Superannuation of Public Servants (Politicians, Military, Police etc). Previously Super was paid out of general revenue.

    Some of the Telstra sale money ended up in the Future Fund.

  92. Kaye Lee

    and you steadfastly ignore the lies this government is telling us. I am aware of what the future fund was supposed to be for. I am also aware that many consider this a waste of money to just sit there when it could be put to a far more productive use…like building the NBN, or introducing a NDIS, or education reform, or action on climate change, or even paying off our debt. It is only people who have a hissy fit whenever we have a deficit who think locking money away is a good idea. No business would ever waste money like that – sitting there idle when it could be being used.

  93. Möbius Ecko

    …and you steadfastly ignore

    Kaye I admire your fortitude but if you haven’t already you will quickly learn that’s what Neil does, steadfastly ignore facts and credible information to push the same wheelbarrow full of shit up and and down the same dung pile over and over, and that wheelbarrow almost always dumps its shit on Labor.

    I know you go to lengths to research and present facts that as much as possible can be sourced and verified, but that is totally wasted on Neil, he will just ignore all your time and effort and still push the shit he always has and it seems always will. It’s why I stopped reading his posts a while ago, he just repeats until it becomes nauseous, and not just for a short or medium time but repeats the same stuff frequently for years, almost word for word no matter what evidence is offered to the contrary.

    I admit there have been a couple of times Neil has been right and pulled me up on information I had wrong. I admitted my mistakes and apologised, but don’t ever expect the same from Neil, he takes being proven wrong and ignoring that as a badge of honour. So he’s not even gracious when proven right. He will then repeat that one correct fact in amongst his wrong ones as reinforcement that everything he says is true, even when it’s blatantly obvious he’s wrong.

    Kaye you might as well argue with a brick wall, but at least I’m gathering new sources in your replies to him so there is at least one thing Neil is good for, the gathering of more information to prove how bad the Liberals he so adores are.

    Also note that he never ever addresses the Liberals lies, instead he always immediately diverts to Labor, no matter how far into the past he has to go to do that.

  94. Neil of Sydney

    ” I am also aware that many consider this a waste of money to just sit there when it could be put to a far more productive use

    Yep. Lefties have never seen a pile of money they don’t want to get hold of.

    That is one reason i stopped salary sacrificing. I can see the next leftie govt will produce so much debt we will have to liquidate some of our Super savings to pay off the debt.

    Hence if i have any spare money i don’t put it into Super.

  95. Fed up

    Neil, yes there is a debt problem. A big one, but not the one that seems to worry you.

    Neil, do you remember that debt truck that Howard ,as Opposition leader ran around the country with,. Yes, the one with shocking graphs of the nations debt.

    Neil, the problem is, that he private debt that worried Howard before that election, has grown to record highs when he left. The funny thing is, that Howard retired that truck quickly.

    Now we are moving back to the days of Howard. Yes, user pay and transferring government debt and responsibly to the private sector and the individual.

    Neil, it does not get rid of the debt or cost, it just transfers it.

    The real question, should be, what is the most efficient way to provide education and health, among other essential services.

    The country needs a healthy, well educated and skilled workforce to thrive. Who should pay. Education is not a privilege, it is a right. Education is essential, for one to be able to survive in our society.

    Yes, Neil, the danger of private debt growing is real. It is private not government debt that bought many nations down, during the GFC,

    While I am at it, who are these taxpayers that Abbott shows so much concern, when talking abut providing essential government services.

    Are we all not taxpayers. Yes, even these on pensions and other benefits.

    blockquote>

    The Real Debt Danger

    By Ian McAuley

    Ignore the noise about government debt, it’s the borrowing of individuals and households that should have us really worried – especially as the mining boom fades, writes Ian McAuley

    Australia has a debt problem, but it’s not about government debt.

    First, the facts about government debt. When Kevin Rudd came to office in 2007 the Commonwealth had net financial assets of four per cent of GDP, and when Labor lost office in 2013 the Commonwealth had net debt of thirteen per cent of GDP. In its first budget the Rudd Government actually planned to run significant surpluses during its first term, but these plans were derailed by the Global Financial Crisis (GFC), which took on full force in late 2008. As any responsible government would have done, in order to sustain economic activity it rapidly switched to running stimulatory deficit budgets, thereby managing to get through the crisis without a recession…………

    The Real Debt Danger

    Neil, at the end of the day, what happened in the past cannot be changed, no matter which PM was in charge. Neil, it is what is happening now that counts.

    Why linger in the dark ages.

  96. Fed up

    Sorry, I mucked the blockquotes up.

  97. Michael Taylor

    Neil, we are quickly growing bored with you.

    You haven’t changed in seven years. Your sole intention has always been to disrupt any discussion you have the audacity to enter into.

    Either you grow up or get out.

  98. Stephen Tardrew

    Michael thank heavens. Starts wearing thin after a while and tends to detract from important issues.

    Very naughty Fed up.

  99. Michael Taylor

    That’s his aim, Stephen. Always has been, always will be.

  100. Fed up

    Once again, Pyne and Hockey have made a statement, only to be corrected by the PM. Both said that HECs is just a debt, that should be collected, like all other debts after death.

    Abbott’s stunt today is new overseas adoptions laws. I hope for the kids sake, that one does not come back and bite him.. Turn up, at the beginning of parliament to launch the bill himself.

  101. Kaye Lee

    Oh the overseas adoption fiasco. On Nov 8, the Coalition disbanded the National Intercountry Adoption Advisory Group. Then a couple of weeks later we see Tony cuddling up to Hugh Jackman and his wife announcing that he had ordered his department to set up an interdepartmental working group on overseas adoption. The man is insane.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-disbanded-expert-adopt-advisory-group-weeks-before-pledging-action-on-the-issue-20131220-2zp3u.html#ixzz333a9ZJXc

  102. Fed up

    Kaye, he knows not what he is doing with this one. Wonder where the state bodies stand. Cannot see them coming to the party.

  103. DanDark

    Neil of Sydney
    Go spruik you lies and crap
    To your dumb and faithful
    We have got more important things to read,
    than your Copied and pasted baloney
    You are wasting your time here,
    Life is too short matey to be wasting your time
    When you waste time, life goes quicker
    Death becomes sooner and faster
    And all you have done is waste your time
    Now that is productive hey, NOT

  104. Fed up

    Did anyone hear Hockey’s lecture on economics today. It appears we are the only country whose government borrows money overseas.

    Not that I believe much of wheat Palmer says. Rather believe him than Hockey.

  105. Neil of Sydney

    Why have i been banned???

  106. Kaye Lee

    You don’t seem to be banned Neil. You were asked to be a bit more receptive and to move on from the Howard years because quite frankly, the repetition is mind-numbing. I would be interested in your views on this government’s policies. See if you can say something that doesn’t start with Howard and that doesn’t refer to a non-existent budget emergency.

  107. Michael Taylor

    You have not been banned, Neil, as delicious as the prospect would seem.

  108. Matters Not

    If Kneel isn’t banned, then why not? There’s no justice in the world!

    By the way, why all these repetitive question marks? Does he stutter?

  109. Fed up

    “Does he stutter?”\Bu56 kee”

    He does keep repeating the same rubbish over and over. Yes, one could sat it is a type off stuttering. Been doing it for years. Some say since at least 2008.

  110. Wazza

    And if Labor DIDNT come in to power with a surplus and money in the bank WHY DOESNT LABOR SAY THAT, only their deluded faithful believe that. The silence from the Labor Party tells the story.

  111. Fed up

    Labor faced the GFC. That is a fact, that this mob like to ignore.

  112. Wazza

    And of course there is NO budget deficit, Labor paid it off ON TIME, AS PROMISED by 2012.

  113. Wazza

    I think this says it all, we are in surplus now and will be for the next 4 years according to the Labor Party
    http://youtu.be/EHodLBFDBds

  114. Kaye Lee

    Wazza, I am not a member of any political party and I have learned to check for myself on anything I am being told. You too can check if you want. No Australian government in history has had zero gross debt. As I stated, this government uses net debt when talking about Howard and compares it to gross debt when talking about Labor. Abbott and Hockey are so deceitful they actually are talking about a possible gross debt in ten years’ time and telling people like you that that is the debt Labor left. Can you not see how you are being conned?

  115. Fed up

    I read a story that arose it seems from our illustrious treasurer. Hockey rang Koch one morning, around 2007, telling him his wife wanted to sell all, including the family home.

    Hockey said he saved the family home. It appears his wife seen the GFC coming.

    I wonder if she is once again telling the head of the house, it is time to sell up again,

    Could it be, Rudd’s actions in saving Australia from suffering the plight of all others be the reason that many on the right hate Labor.

    Could it be, the likes of the Hockey were unable to clean up on fire sales that followed the GPC,

    Sadly for them, this did not occur in any big way in Australia, as elsewhere in the world.

    The business and jobs were saved.

  116. Wazza

    That’s ok Kaye Lee, we don’t have a budget deficit any more, Wayne Swan told us it’s all right and the budget is back in surplus ON TIME AS PROMISED IN 2012.

  117. Kaye Lee

    Wazza I could show you many quotes of Joe Hockey continuing to promise a surplus long after Swan agreed it wouldn’t happen.

    If you care to examine the budget papers you will see that the deficit has gone UP by $53 billion since the Coalition took office. Where is your outrage for that? You will also see NO surplus in sight over the forward estimates. So much for your economic saviours…all this pain to go backwards.

  118. Wazza

    Kaye Lee, of course debt has risen since Liberals took over, do you also expect your house mortgage doesn’t continue to accrue interest when you leave the house? We are still operating under Swans last budget and honouring the spending outlined in that budget. Please attach the videos of Hockey promising to balance the budget by 2014/15 that you said you would, it would be interesting to see them.

  119. Kaye Lee

    Joe Hockey: “we will achieve a surplus in our first year in office and we will achieve a surplus for every year of our first term.’’

  120. Wazza

    It must really hurt seeing Swan in that video, it makes all Labor supporters look like fools.

  121. john921fraser

    <

    Looks like "Wazza" has some of Abbotts "new and credible information".

    Care to share it "Wazza" ?

    Or do you only "fly" with old news (News Corpse) ?

  122. Wazza

    John, just stating the facts and attaching proof, sorry, but the source isn’t Newscorpse it’s the AlpBC and YouTube.

  123. Wazza

    Kaye Lee….attach the video please!

  124. Wazza

    Don’t worry, I found it, dated prior to Swans infamous speech and included “based on the numbers provided by Labor” first before that line. BASED ON THE NUMBERS provided by Labor, we can see how accurate those numbers were now, just watch Swans video he didn’t even know the numbers.

  125. john921fraser

    <

    @"Wazza"

    News Corpse …… your a very funny person "Wazza".

    Are you still angry with your fifth grade teacher for promising you would pass your mid term exam ?

    Appears you have lots of pent up anger left in your past.

    Here's a tip.

    Try hard to get current.

    Ac or DC ….. doesn't much matter.

  126. Kaye Lee

    Wazza here is the video with the transcript which actually makes for very funny reading considering what they have done since coming into office. Note their absolute objection to raising the debt limit to $300 billion, yet Joe’s first move was to raise it to $500 billion….go figure

    Joe Hockey’s National Press Club Budget Address

  127. Kaye Lee

    Wazza, can you tell me what our current debt is?

  128. Wazza

    John, Fifth Grade, are you American? Since the same fools are still senior Labor MP’s the video is current. AC and DC, there is a huge difference but I suppose Labor can best be described as DC because they could never change the direction they were sending our economy, downwards.

    Here’s a tip, get relevant.

  129. corvus boreus

    A sideswipe from the wings.
    Wazza, Wayne Swan does look a bit exposed in a present viewing of his prior comments. He is now a spent force in politics, and his his cotribution,or lack thereof should be discussed(hopefully rationally) in the context of hindsight analysis. The critical focus should be on the current situation.
    Wazza, There is unequivocal evidence(I’m not going to link, there’s links aplenty on this forum and don’t have the techs for linkspeak) of on camera spoken ..um..inaccuracies with regards to subsequent actions, shall we say, uttered by our Prime Minister elect speaking with regards to taxes and public funding in the previous election campaign. In fairness you should occasionally address queries on this and other matters.(Utilises militaristic phraseology with parenthetic hand gestures) Take up the shield as well as the sword, so to speak.
    Kaye, know you’re juggling for the love of us all, but dates on quotes is invaluable to research on context. I Don’t necessarily need a video link, I can read good!
    Back to the brawl boys and girls, I’m off for corn.

  130. john921fraser

    <

    @"wazza"

    "Here's a tip get relevant".

    your a funny fellow "Wazza" ……. "dated prior to Swans infamous speech " and "It must really hurt seeing Swan in that video, it makes all Labor supporters look like fools"

    "Wazza" living in yesterday land and trolling around in the cemetery.

  131. john921fraser

    <

    By the way "Wazza" how old are you ?

    Fifth grade ?

  132. Fed up

    No, Swan did not achieve his desire, ain=m to bring the budget back into surplus. Ir was not for lack of trying, even if his aim was wrong.

    What is also true, even though we did not end up with that surplus, we were trending to it. Yes, the deficit was coming down with each budget.

    Hockey’s actions seems to have undone all the good work. In fact he has increased the debt,, placing the economy in a dangerous position

    Will be more than a deficit, or even debt we will be worrying about.,

    We are now seeing business and consumer confidence in free fall. That leads, I believe to higher employment. Yes, less revenue, leading to a bigger deficit.

    This budget has transferred government debt and responsilibili6ty to taxpayers. Yes onto the family, now and well into the future.

    Has increased the debt load on the same taxpayers, he is always spruiking about.

    Yes, tax payers means, all of us. Not some mythical group that pays taxes, but gains no benefits.

  133. john921fraser

    <

    "WAzza" why don't you tell everyone how Australia's current deficit is hurting you ?

    Seeing as how you do not appear to be working at the moment.

    Plenty of free time to ruminate of the past

    Tell everyone how the here and now of the economy is hurting you.

    Who knows we might do an SPC and purchase/employ you..

  134. Kaye Lee

    “Kaye Lee, of course debt has risen since Liberals took over”

    I was speaking about the DEFICIT blowout Wazza. I assume you understand the difference. PEFO showed a cumulative deficit of 54.6 billion over forward estimates. The budget shows a cumulative deficit of over $107 billion. Can you tell me why they would persist with their decisions to cut revenue and increase spending considering their pre-election commitments?

  135. Fed up

    Wazza, the numbers at the time were projections. guesses. therefore cannot be right or wrong. Yes, they proved to be overtly optimistic.

    The were based on information known at the time. Yes, those numbers needed the value of the high dollar to act, as normal, . that is to come quickly down. This did not happened. It is still maintaining a value above expectations.

    Wazza, no one has a crystal ball, not even Hockey.

    It is easy to know the answers, when one looks back,

  136. Fed up

    John, I know if the toxic budget proposed survives the senate, I and many of my family will suffer.

    What makes it worse, it does and will not add to the bottom liner. Will not address the structural imbalance within the budget. Will send the economy intpo free fall.

    Yes, many will suffer for the ideology of some.

    Yes, there is no budget emergency, but one cannot be so sure there will not be in the near future.

    See Abbott is on his way to France. I wonder what attracts our illustrious PM to gay Paree.

  137. Fed up

    It is said that Abbott is back to the big bad debt. All we have heard yesterday and seems today.

    At the end of the day, all Abbott has is inane and fraudulent slogans, that are wearing thin, I do not even believe the likes of Neil, Wazza and scaper have their heart in the job they have taken on,

  138. Stephen Tardrew

    I Wazza gonna comment but rigor mortis set in.

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