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You, madam, are most definitely a racist

I wonder if Pauline Hanson understands the word irony.

Please explain.

In her inimitable style, Pauline stood up in parliament to tell us she was “fed up with people inside this parliament and outside this house calling me a racist.”

The ironical part is that it was in the context of a bizarre speech in which she was bemoaning the fact that, due to political correctness, she can’t call people wogs anymore – something they apparently enjoyed according to Pauline.

“People have come to our country — and I remember most, years ago, when they came; there was the Greeks and Italians and different ones, they were called ‘wogs’ — they keep telling me, they said ‘my God we actually had everything thrown at us…'” she said.

And Pauline was right in there throwing the taunts.

“…when the Aussies had a go at them in that Aussie way they then became part of the community, they assimilated. I remember all the guys at the fish markets, the Greeks and Italians, we all had jokes together and it was taken in a good sense of humour, and we’ve lost that in Australia.”

“I think people have become so precious that you can’t say or do anything anymore, otherwise you’ll be dragged off to the law courts.”

Particularly if you call Pauline a racist. Apparently she feels she is being victimised.

“I’ve had it up to here with my tolerance,” she said. “I believe we have a right to have an opinion and to debate it.”

Pauline threw out a challenge, saying her detractors “cannot define one word that I have ever said in policy, or anything, that is racist.”

Well here is some “empirical evidence” for you Pauline.

Soon after her first election to Parliament, Hanson’s book, Pauline Hanson — the truth : on Asian immigration, the Aboriginal question, the gun debate and the future of Australia, was published. In it she makes claims of Aboriginal cannibalism, in particular that Aboriginal women ate their babies and tribes cannibalised their members. Hanson told the media that the reason for these claims of cannibalism was to “demonstrate the savagery of Aboriginal society”.

“I am fed up to the back teeth with the inequalities that are being promoted by the government and paid for by the taxpayer under the assumption that Aboriginals are the most disadvantaged people in Australia.”

“Anyone with a criminal record can, and does, hold a position with ATSIC”

Yesterday she told Andrew Bolt that there is no definition of what an Aboriginal person is.

“If you marry an Aboriginal you can be classified (as one), or if the community or the elders accept you into that community you can be defined as an Aboriginal,” the One Nation leader told Andrew Bolt on Sky News on Monday.

“That’s not good enough because then if you make a comment about it, well what are you? Are you an Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal?”

In 1996 she feared the Asian invasion.

“I and most Australians want our immigration policy radically reviewed and that of multiculturalism abolished. I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians. They have their own culture and religion, form ghettos and do not assimilate.”

In 2006, it was the Africans.

“We’re bringing in people from South Africa at the moment. There’s a huge amount coming into Australia, who have diseases; they’ve got AIDS,” Ms Hanson told AAP. “They are of no benefit to this country whatsoever; they’ll never be able to work.

“And what my main concern is, is the diseases that they’re bringing in and yet no one is saying or doing anything about it.”

“Do you want to see your daughter or a family member end up with AIDS or anyone for that matter?”

In 2016 it’s the Muslims.

After the Orlando night club shootings, Pauline said, regarding Muslim immigration, “We have laws here that we don’t bring in Pitbull terriers because they are a danger to our society… we have laws to protect Australians.”

Pauline has announced policies including a ban on building new mosques until a royal commission into whether Islam is a religion or a political ideology has been held, and installing CCTV cameras in all existing mosques. She has called for a “moratorium” on accepting Muslim immigrants into Australia saying “We are in danger of being swamped by Muslims who bear a culture and ideology that is incompatible with our own.

Same old line with a different target.

Racism was defined by the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission in 1998.

“Racism is an ideology that gives expression to myths about other racial and ethnic groups, that devalues and renders inferior those groups, that reflects and is perpetuated by deeply rooted historical, social, cultural and power inequalities in society.”

Pauline’s stereotyping is based on the ignorant and arrogant belief that the world would be a better place if we were all just like her. Imagine the sort of country we would have if we were swamped by Reclaim Australia and United Patriots.

As Mick Dodson said, “Irrespective of its sources, racism is racism. Ignorance is no excuse. Insecurity is not justification…racism in all its forms should be uncompromisingly condemned.”

So I will take this opportunity to exercise my freedom of speech and say Pauline, you are the epitome of all that is ugliest about Australia and you, madam, are most definitely a racist. You earned the label so wear it and do not expect my automatic respect because your repeated endeavours to re-join the gravy train finally bore fruit. I will resist your attempts to divide us and I will stand with those who you seek to vilify.

Racism. It stops with me.

 

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212 comments

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  1. townsvilleblog

    Parliament is open to any Australian, and so it should be, however we have never counted on a person of such low IQ being elected to the Australian parliament.

  2. Miriam English

    Pauline the whiner.
    Pauline the nasty, scared, racist whiner.

  3. Stephen Griffin

    “I wonder if Pauline Hanson understands the word irony.”

    I suspect she thinks it’s something to do with ironing.

  4. John Lord

    All I have to say Kaye is this.
    I will take this opportunity to exercise my freedom of speech and say Pauline, you are the epitome of all that is ugliest about Australia and you, madam, are most definitely a racist. You earned the label so wear it and do not expect my automatic respect because your repeated endeavours to rejoin the gravy train finally bore fruit. I will resist your attempts to divide us and I will stand with those who you seek to vilify.

    Thanks for putting words into my mouth.

  5. Ella

    Kay Lee , WOW WOW!
    Your blood is worth bottling.
    I agree ignorance, a lack of empathy, a lack of understanding that we are all human is what I see in the Hon. P . Hanson’s comments.
    There is up side to this Kaye it shows us how NOT to be , how Not to think.
    It gives us all collectively the opportunity to clarify our thoughts and where we stand.
    NOT with P.Hanson !!!!

  6. abbienoiraude

    Kaye;
    You speak for me.

    Racism stops with me!

    Thank you!

  7. David1

    Now I know where the term ‘mad cow’ originated. Hanson come on down.

  8. helvityni

    Stephen Griffin, Pauline wears polyester, it does not need ironing; people like her always know what they don’t like: most of their neighbours, especially the coloured ones, people with funny accents, foreign food, people who are better off, especially if they happen to be foreigners, poorer folk coz they are too bloody lazy to work…etc, etc….

  9. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    I think that all you have proved is that P.H. is, rightly or wrongly, critical of other cultures and not that she is a racist.
    Racist she might be but, you have not proved it, at least not in this submission and Islam is, in my opinion, not a race.
    Go ahead one and all and blast me. I am expecting it.
    Cheers.

  10. Miriam English

    H, did you read the parts where Hanson attributed horrible, untrue things to people who are different from her? That is called racism. Kaye demonstrated that very nicely, so she did, indeed, prove Pauline Hanson is racist… by using Hanson’s own words as damning evidence.

  11. Ill fares the land

    A real concern with Hanson, aside from the fact that she is too stupid to ever realise just how stupid she is, is that when she first came to prominence she was the voice for the more disgusting side of one of Australia’s most disgusting political figures, Rat Howard. He didn’t have to give a voice to those ideas, because Hanson did it for him. Howard’s attempts to repudiate both Hanson and her ideas were largely perfunctory.

    She now returns to power, swept up in a tide of anger – a large number of people who are angry at, well, pretty much everything and Hanson’s vacuous ideas and supposedly tough rhetoric focus their anger on someone or something. But now, the major parties see her as a genuine threat and that means that conservatives in particular, now believe they need to try to meet her on her territory.

    Culturally, Australia has never needed a “tough” leader – strong yes, but not a thug. This is not how it is in the Middle East and Russia, for example – in those countries/regions, people take comfort from having a dictatorial thug in charge. Presumably this, perversely, engenders a feeling of safety.

    But the US now has a thug as its leader (he is also, for example a disturbed,misogynistic, vile, petulant, narcissistic and vengeful thug, but still a thug). Marine La Pen is a thug and she is likely to lead France. Hanson is not a thug, but believes that she “talks tough” and she surrounds herself with men who think they are tough guys (who don’t seem to realise that they are simply boofheads).

    Welcome to the world we created – where the poor are angry because they have nothing; the middle class are angry because they think they deserve more; the wealthy are angry because they don’t yet control enough of the world’s wealth and still have too much regulation in the way of creating even more wealth – for themselves of course.

    The whole freakin’ world is disaffected about something and they don’t want leadership. They want someone who promises to crush those that are, apparently, responsible for their personal malaise.

    Ironically, it will take some time before the world realises that stopping Muslims, or Asians, or whatever, didn’t unlock the riches of the world for them – they will still be disaffected and just plain angry, because these thugs are only about acting out their own deluded fantasies about them being powerful. They don’t want what you want – they want only what they want and we are the schmucks that give them their voice and their power.

    And don’t imagine that once Hanson has power she is intelligent enough to use it wisely – that is not within her limited mental capacity. Moreover, because she surrounds herself with boofheads like Culleton; deluded ultra-conservatives like Roberts and absolute devious little twerps like James Ashby, her stupid views will only be reinforced. Funnily enough, I suspect those who stand behind her are not supportive – she is merely a way of them achieving their persona (albeit deluded) goals.

  12. Kaye Lee

    Her stereotyping is racist. Her assumption that our culture is better is racist. Her fearmongering is racist. Her intolerance of difference is racist. Her words taint whole groups of people, not for anything they have done, but for being of a certain ethnicity or religion. She shows no empathy for the needs of others and offers nothing but collective labeling.

    For example, about Asians…”They have their own culture and religion”. What exactly is Asian culture? Japanese? Indian? Malaysian? Syrian? It’s just an ignorant racist collective putdown of “the other”.

  13. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    I have read Kaye Lee’s submission twice.

    Most prefer their own culture and the belief that one’s own culture is superior to another is not racism.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism

    Cheers.

  14. Kaye Lee

    “Racism is an ideology that gives expression to myths about other racial and ethnic groups, that devalues and renders inferior those groups, that reflects and is perpetuated by deeply rooted historical, social, cultural and power inequalities in society.”

    Sounds pretty clear cut to me. All Africans have AIDS??? You don’t want your daughter associating with them????

    Preferring your own culture is one thing. Wrongly vilifying others is another.

  15. totaram

    Anyone wishing to migrate to Australia must undergo a medical test, which includes a test for AIDS. Testing positive for AIDS is usually grounds for denial of an immigrant visa. So to say that people migrating from South Africa all have AIDS is blatantly false.

  16. Kaye Lee

    Pauline said she is sick of being tolerant. Well I would suggest she put her hand up for the wrong job because, not only is it incumbent upon her to be tolerant of minorities, she is duty bound to protect their rights and offer them the assistance they need.

  17. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    I am not disagreeing with the thrust of your argument denouncing racism however, criticizing or even vilifying another culture is not racism. Sorry.
    Cheers.

  18. jimhaz

    You can look at it another way and say if more political people had of listened to her, that we would be better off now.

    I most definitely believe that.

    We would have still imported many Asian migrants, as they were found to be cooperative and don’t ask for anything, but few of the groups now with the highest percentages of crime (other than Vietnam, whom we owed).

    Non-discrimatory immigration is just dumb – that is why it is a belief of both the far economic right and the far left.

  19. Kaye Lee

    The law disagrees with you H. Sorry.

  20. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    It often does.
    Cheers.

  21. Kaye Lee

    We have never engaged in non-discriminatory immigration. We discriminate against those with health problems. We discriminate against those with criminal records and security concerns. We discriminate against people who come by boat.

  22. jimhaz

    [all Africans have AIDS???]

    We all exaggerate when no one who can change things appears to listen. Adult percentages with aids was very high, still is. High enough to raise concerns.

  23. Chris

    I’m not keen on this type of slagging, For example, what do those who insult Ms Hansen by calling her a racist stop and examine their personal thoughts before logging on. Over 70% of my life has been in Australia and had I access to a time machine, I’d travel back and throttle the lying imbeciles in Australia House. I have been in full time employment until my health failed and I was retired. I’ve traveled on diplomatic passports and been the principal Australian speaker at a couple. However, from the moment I stepped onto a rain-sodden and cold Essendon airport, the verbal abuse was amazing. The problem was that I a #……# Pommie bastard and white. The fact that I spoke Grammar school English weighed on me. So it came down to a punch-up in an internal courtyard and funnily enough when you can as I did hit harder, they didn’t speak to me except if that was necessary. Ironically, the guy I hit was playing in the VFL and we became friends. Unlike Germans, Dutch, Belgian, French people in those days, there was no particular suburb for people who came from the once UK. I’d dearly like to have the cash to send some of those who have crooned the tune (above) to go to the UK and live on their equivalent of what we call the dole for a time such as October to May. And if I really could get back to that early time, would I have bothered? The answer is no, and I would have traveled more before making a decision.

    As for the Senator, she was voted in: she has a right to be there and heard. You could also listen to what flies around in Federal parliament. Worse now than it has ever been, it’s still an experience.

  24. Kaye Lee

    So we should say no to the Africans who are proven healthy who want to come here to avoid the health and social problems, oppression and wars there? Those who want to give their children the same opportunities our kids have? I know we can’t open the gates to all but we must help in times of crisis. I think many of them would happily go home if it was safe…but it isn’t…and the colonisers have played a part in that. These are just people, not someone to fear.

  25. keerti

    Pauline is almost a one woman argument for entry tests to stand for parliament. The two that come to mind are English ( spoken, written and comprehension), and psychological. Perhaps reading a little might give some insight into how much some of her friends of yore liked being called daigoes, wops, and wogs pakis or chaparti munchers.
    Beginning with They’re a Weird Mob….Nino Calota

  26. Terry2

    Initially I said that One Nation would be a non-event in the Senate but I didn’t factor in the coalition cuddling up to Pauline and now, with the backpacker tax concession to One Nation’s demand for a 15% tax , it’s a whole new dynamic.

  27. John Brame

    Hopefully one nation will implode on their own hate.

  28. Zathras

    Civil Rights activist Stokely Carmichael once said –
    “If a white man wants to lynch me, that’s his problem.
    If he’s got the power to lynch me, that’s my problem.
    Racism is not a question of attitude, it’s a question of power”.

    Anyone can make racist statements but true racism comes from a position of power plus privilege.

    Now Hanson is back in the Parliament she’s appealing to the worst aspects of the worst people and empowering them to display their hatred in public. Further boosted by the Trump victory she’s ready to ramp it up to the next level.

    For her to now describe herself as some sort of victim is not only absurd, it’s insulting to the intelligence of most reasonable people.

    Seventy years ago she would have had the manners to hide her face under a white hood.

  29. bobrafto

    There are some commentators here who think she is a racist and some don’t and another said we should have listened to her rants on her xenophobia, I, just believe she is an evil and vile piece of work who is using the political system to line her pockets while pretending to represent the people who voted for her.

    As an aside, Pauline said of her GBR visit that she was promoting the tourist industry by visiting a healthy part of the reef, (1) The tourism board normally appoint babes like Lara Tingle to do that job, in fact, her face has the opposite effect of keeping people away. (2) It probably would have been more appropriate for her to say ‘Visit the glory of the GBR before the miners and the farmers completely fcuk it up’.

  30. silkworm

    Imbeciles like Chris, jimhaz and Harkebus who try to defend Hanson against charges of racism are like dogs who keep returning to their own vomit – they know it’s wrong, but they just can’t help themselves.

  31. silkworm

    Bob Rafto, Hanson was saying we should visit the reef before it begins to look like her.

  32. petenotpeat

    irony would be similar to tinny only a bit heavier and better to hit people with

  33. jimhaz

    [Imbeciles like Chris, jimhaz and Harkebus]

    Be nicer, or you will justify disgust and in that case you will be the imbecile.

    Fine to call me wrong – but honestly that is often nothing to do with brains but the type of personality one has, or ones multicultural experiences giving a positive outlook, rather than a negative one.

    I’m not really defending Hanson. I do not like her in any way. I’m defending ordinary people whom are rightfully tired of high level of immigration and the over playing of multiculturalism limited benefits. I’m sick of people exaggerating the whole effing racism deal and treating all negative comments as if they were inquisitioners looking for blasphemy.

    You’ve had your way for 20 odd years of high immigration and now it is time to shut the eff up.

  34. helvityni

    silkworm, maybe we ought to send some of our healthy and wholesome looking Olympic winning girls and boys to promote the Barrier Reef, they are young and articulate…Hanson might scare the tourists and other living things off….

  35. Kaye Lee

    I don’t think name calling helps (says she who just called Pauline a racist).

    jimhaz,

    “Fine to call me wrong – but honestly that is often nothing to do with brains but the type of personality one has, or ones multicultural experiences giving a positive outlook, rather than a negative one.”

    Or fear of the unknown? Pauline’s support is not coming from the people who actually live in multiracial areas.

  36. Terry2

    It may already be too late for us. The advent of false news in the USA Presidential election undoubtedly influenced a lot of voters to support Trump, many of whom would probably never have considered him a sensible alternative in normal times.

    Social media was flooded with the apparent endorsement of Trump by the Pope:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20161115024211/http://wtoe5news.com/us-election/pope-francis-shocks-world-endorses-donald-trump-for-president-releases-statement/

    It is hard not to believe that many of the 69.5 million Catholics in America were not influenced by this endorsement and voted accordingly. Abbott tried a similar tactic to reach out to the swinging voters with his election eve assurance that there would be : ‘no cuts to education, health, or the ABC and SBS, and no changes to pensions’. That assurance would have comforted many who had prior doubts about voting for Abbott – it worked and we are all the poorer for that democratic lurch to the conservative right.

    There is no doubt that Hanson and One Nation will have been watching closely how easily social media and as a result mainstream media were manipulated for political effect. Dutton for all his apparent stupidity is right on to it too.

    Those who follow politics and the media closely, and that includes many contributors to AIMN, would not easily be fooled by this epidemic of false news and ‘rhetorical electioneering promises’ that dissipate like the morning dew once the election is concluded. But there are many who walk among us who take it all in and vote accordingly.

    May your Dog go with you !

  37. silkworm

    No, it’s time for the racists and white angle monoculturists to shut the f*ck up.

  38. David1

    jimhaz what country are you referring to with your sick of high level of immigration comment? I am interested, as surely it is not Oz or our neighbours NZ. Of ‘whom’ do you speak?

  39. Kaye Lee

    Hanson’s strongest appeal in is the Wide Bay Burnett region, rural areas west-south-west of Ipswich, and Maranoa on the Western Downs. All are strong, traditional National Party territories. The electorates are Wright, covering the Lockyer Valley (21 per cent), Hinkler, based on Bundaberg (19.6 per cent), Flynn, south and west of Gladstone, (nearly 17 per cent), and Wide Bay, covering Maryborough and Gympie, (nearly 15 per cent).

    She also polled strongly in the Townsville-based seat of Herbert, picking up 13 per cent of the vote. Interestingly Family First polled poorly in precisely those electorates where Hanson did well. It is possible that both Hanson and Family First are competing for the same segment of the regional vote.

    Hanson scored her greatest support in Sydney from voters in the western urban electorate of Lindsay which was the seat where, in 2007, the husband of the sitting Liberal was caught distributing bogus racist material during the federal election campaign that featured “The Islamic Australia Federation” thanking Labor for supporting terrorists involved with the 2002 Bali bombings.

    And they want to talk about Mediscare???

  40. bobrafto

    JH
    You’ve had your way for 20 odd years of high immigration and now it is time to shut the f*ck up.

    We really don’t have a choice, the country is underpopulated for a Capitalist system that depends on growth and that’s why we have to have immigrants.

    It’s people like you and your mates that have not been procreating enough to have at least 10 kids each even when Costello was giving out baby bonuses.

    Boost the local population and immigration falls.

  41. Wayne Turner

    Pauline’s a moronic hypocrite – Of course too stupid to know it. Sounds and looks like Hanson being “politically correct”.

    Folks are dumb where Pauline Hanson votes come from.

  42. Mercurial

    “We’re bringing in people from South Africa at the moment. There’s a huge amount coming into Australia, who have diseases; they’ve got AIDS,”

    The definition of racist. They don’t ALL have Aids, therefore it’s a blight against people from a certain origin.

    That’s racism.

  43. Matters Not

    KL, the numbers you provide presumably relate to Senate voting in the last election. Going booth by booth and relating those Senate numbers to State boundaries her numbers are even more worrying. Places like Lake Clarendon, Ma Ma Creek, Laidley and Hatton Vale see her figures above 30%. While in Flagstone Creek they are above 35%.

    The current State Member for Lockyer which includes many of the above booths has already announced that he won’t run – wants to spend more time with the family and so on.

    My figures are from my calculations, have you a link for yours, which relate to Queensland Federal seats which are contested under the LNP banner and not the Nats as such?

  44. Matters Not

    Just for conceptual clarity. The belief that one race is superior to another, and therefore legitimate to judge people on the basis of their race lies at the heart of RACISM .

    The belief that one culture is superior to another, and therefore legitimate to judge other cultures according to preconceptions originating in the standards and customs of one’s own culture is the concept of ETHNOCENTRICISM.

    Both are ‘useful’ concepts but while ‘racism’ as a concept is pretty well understood and is in general use – ‘ethnocentrism’ is rarely used in day to day conversation and its explanatory power is often ignored. Indeed ‘racism’ is often used to encompass ‘ethnocentrism’. In that process, the explanatory power of both concepts is weakened.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism

  45. Kaye Lee

    MN the article was from the day after the election so not final figures…just an indication of where the support was coming from

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2016-opinion/federal-election-2016-where-pauline-hansons-support-comes-from-20160703-gpxp87.html

    This was the article about Sydney

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/how-hanson-won-the-west-20160722-gqbltw.html

    Another interesting article…

    Since being elected to federal Parliament in 1996 in the Ipswich seat of Oxley, Ms Hanson has contested a further nine elections. She had been unsuccessful in all of them until July 2.

    But it could have been so different for Ms Hanson if she’d only won an extra 114 votes. In last year’s Queensland election, that is.

    Ms Hanson narrowly missed out on winning the Brisbane seat of Lockyer last year. So close, in fact, that after preferences she only lost out to Liberal National MP Ian Rickuss by 0.4 per cent (or 114 votes).

    If Ms Hanson had won a seat in the Queensland lower house, it’s unlikely she would have run as number one on the One Nation Senate ticket in last Saturday’s federal election.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/how-114-votes-could-have-stopped-pauline-hanson-from-winning-a-senate-seat/news-story/12e1184232d628fa3f3c62c2337a7519

  46. silkworm

    Pauline Hanson is a crumby witch. She lives at the bottom of a dirty ditch.

  47. silkworm

  48. Deanna Jones

    Thank you, Kaye. It is quite bizarre that in 2016 we find ourselves still having to explain that Pauline Hanson is racist. Her views are racist and she is in fact a white supremacist and a male supremacist and I resent the air space she takes up.

  49. Matters Not

    Thanks KL. Yes Pauline has been a serial ‘contestant’. I await research which shows how many dollars she’s received over the years – all part of the public record just awaiting the effort of some aspiring journalist, given the professional ones simply won’t do any homework.

    And perhaps an educated guesstimate as to how much she actually outlaid.

    I suspect the evidence will indicate that she has been a long-term sucker on the public teat. A bit like Nick Cater.

  50. Kaye Lee

    Interesting you should ask that MN. I was just reading an article which said this election alone “Pauline Hanson’s One Nation Party has received more than $1.6 million, and the Nick Xenophon Team will get a fraction under $1.2 million.

    The Liberal Party has received the most electoral funding, just under $23.5 million, while the ALP gets almost $22.4 million.

    Of the Independent candidates, Cathy McGowan has been handed more than $80,000 after her successful campaign in the regional Victorian seat of Indi.

    Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott may have lost their fights to reclaim the seats of New England and Cowper, but both will reap more than $70,000 in public funding.

    Former Australian Idol host James Mathison, who ran as an independent against the former Prime Minister Tony Abbott in his Sydney electorate, will receive almost $28,000 for his efforts.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-27/election-2016-hanson-xenophon-big-winners-in-election-funding/7665618

    They paid out about $60.5 million to 24 parties and 24 independents

  51. Matters Not

    That recompense is based on ‘votes’ (above a minimum) and completely unrelated to expenditure is outrageous. No receipts required. Indeed no even (claimed) statement of expenditure needed?

    Today, we went to a government office to report the loss of our Medicare Card. Only took a few minutes to establish our credentials (when called), receive a couple of ‘temporary’ cards with the promise of hard plastic to follow and we were on our way. But not so with most others. They had more ‘paper/documents’ than I would see in a year. A bureaucratic nightmare for the many who were not really equipped to deal with same.

    Yet we have individuals (Yes PHON is effectively hers.) be gifted $1.6 million and she has to submit not a page of paperwork. I should add that the ‘majors’ are in on the arrangement and therefore no change likely in the foreseeable future.

    Mugs one and all.

  52. Kaye Lee

    A personal family anecdote…

    My father was serving in the army in WWII when there was an election (not sure if it was state or federal). Dad found out that if you ran for parliament you got leave so that’s exactly what he did. Came home and did NO campaigning – just a lot of carousing thinking himself very clever. And just to add to his smugness, he got more than 4% of the vote so got his deposit back.

  53. jimhaz

    [No, it’s time for the racists and white angle monoculturists to shut the f*ck up]

    I have a feeling it is people like you that leads to a few percent more Trump and Hanson voters than would otherwise exist.

    Monoculturalism is the extreme. I simply do not feel comfortable with the loss of what was my social Australia due to the need to accommodate other cultures when immigration rates are very high and are coupled with large numbers of OS students and 457 like visas.

    I do not like the modern Australian that much. I think we are losing it due to being divided as a result – in part only but to me at least of a recognisable degree – of immigration levels that are too high.

    With that assessment I have no idea how much externalisation I’m doing, which is something most people don’t know. I do feel it may be driving uneasiness in quite a few others as well. It is not all about fears about others such as terrorism and crime, or fear of job taking, or cultural distrust or dislike.

    We are not really the team Australia we were in the 2 decades up to the Olympics. What I’m talking about here is the difference between a brilliant team and an average one.

    Gough, Hawke and Keating set us up with the right conditions to be a brilliant team able to cope in the new world of increasing globalisation, as it was then. We needed some new blood to liven things up and to broaden our viewpoints, and to provide a working class to give the more educated or adaptable the opportunity to move into services, so the policy of multiculturalism was a good idea. The vibe was good. The things Hanson was on about bubbled up but didn’t really stick. We got through hurdles like high unemployment and interest rate periods. We had the “back to reality” recessions we had to have. We were less stressed, forward looking and more equal.

    We won so much we got greedy. We changed coaches to the Clever Dick Howard. Though destiny, under the spell of the entertainment and media industries, we followed what was going on in decadent USA – drugs, self-absorbed personalities and music, wealth excesses, greed is good, over-zealous leftism, neo-liberalisation and other forms of shonky business and insane politicians. We went into debt, big private debt and growing public. We split into the super leagues and the unworthy priced out of the market. We stopped looking after the backyard. We stopped paving the way for the next group of players, because we stopped looking after the grassroots – dropped them from the team, even took away their future houses. We rely mostly on imported players rather than training our own young. We got fat and slovenly.

    Human nature being what it is, I’m not at all saying that a low immigration level over this period would have meant those changes would not have occurred, however I deal feel we would have been just a little bit more resistant and as a result would have taken greater care of the worst off, so the negative effect would have been less.

    I’ll just give one example. Hypothetically, our union membership might have been a few percent higher (eg less availability of contract staff, more historical propensity for Australian born to join, less obedience to unfair business practices, more investment in training locals). The flow on effects of that might have been enough for Australia to resist voting for such low quality, intensely negative LNP parties.

    When a social system starts to throw out wobbles like Hanson, it is a sign that something fundamental needs fixing. Might just be overheating or running out of petrol. Or maybe it is the external weather. Whatever the reason surely a good time to slow down.

    In any case, what is this race we are in? To get to the end quicker by the logic of picking up as many passengers as we can seat? Lemmings Hill Express?

    Limitation of population increase here, using soft political tools, is a core desire of mine. Immigration that increases our population fails that initial test of being “the right thing”.

    Morally, as debt is a drawn down on the future to come, and immigration increases housing debt and environmental loss debt, and as even with high immigration we have an increasing public debt, this generation needs to take the economic loss that would occur from lower immigration and will need to pay for higher care salaries.

  54. silkworm

    “We are not really the team Australia we were in the 2 decades up to the Olympics.”

    Team Australia??? F*ck off!!!

  55. Matters Not

    Human nature being what it is

    Please explain? What do you think ‘human nature’ is? Is it your view of ‘human nature’ we are talking about? An agreed definition I can consult? Is it ‘human nature’ to be fearful? To be cruel? To be kind? To be racist? To be ethnocentric? Or what?

    And if it’s all or some of the above, can ‘human nature’ be seen as ‘plastic’ – in the sense that the society or culture we are located in will modify, (if not radically alter) same?

    In short, is human nature a physiological ‘given’ or a social ‘work in progress’? Perhaps you might give some examples of ‘human nature’ which can be universalised across cultures, historical epochs and the like?

    Not saying that they’re not there. Just interested in your views?

  56. Sam

    That personal anecdote from Kaye Lee made me laugh so hard.

    Your dad is a legend, well done Sir.

  57. silkworm

    “… over-zealous leftism…”

    F*ck off again!

    (This guy is really giving me the shits.)

  58. Miriam English

    jimhaz, I hate to tell you this, but that unease you’re feeling about other people coming to Australia and changing it to something different from what you feel is familiar… that is xenophobia. In your case it seems to be simmering on low heat and at little risk of boiling over, but this exactly the emotion that Hanson, Abbott, Bernardi, and Christensen exploited so well.

    We don’t have a high immigration rate. Economically Australia has done extremely well out of immigrants. They are not a weight on personal or national debt; they actually help to fix such problems.

    That malaise you’re putting your finger on is generated by the uninspiring politicians and mass media. It has created a lethargy, cynicism, and pessimism that is bleeding Australians dry. We are still the lucky country in many, many respects, but it sure doesn’t feel like it anymore. But nothing has changed except the politicians and mainstream media — both have gone bad.

    There are good reasons not to want much immigration, but they don’t have to do with those put forward by most people who are opposed to immigration. The most important one, to my mind, is Australia’s incredibly fragile ecosystems. That can be answered by ensuring most people move into the cities and by changing the way farmers, miners, and “developers” damage the land.

    Socially, culturally, economically, migrants enrich Australia immeasurably. They are not the problem.

  59. wam

    I don’t know a banana bender socially who doesn’t believe Aborigines killed and ate humans.
    When we put an intelligence scan on hanson. Who thinks she can understand why her truths are not right?
    Her fears of Islam are real and therefore true?
    Her stereotypes are supported on the TV?
    Her reef is undamaged?
    If Australia cannot get hanson to learn what hope is there for her supporters? They are actively recruiting in qld and wa but there are rednecks everywhere.
    The numbers will equal or exceed the dixxbransims by the next election.
    ps true miriam: ‘Socially, culturally, economically, migrants enrich Australia immeasurably. They are not the problem.’ You left out the only important item which is the problem. Religios belief.

  60. Matters Not

    wam within any successful ideology, there must be a grain(s) of truth. And so it is with Hanson. Grains of ‘truth’ generalised out of all proportion.

  61. bobrafto

    JH
    Perhaps life has passed you by and haven’t come to that realization that life is in a state of flux and you’re upset because it has moved on instead of staying in the 70’s and 80’s. It would be great to stay in those glory years of young adulthood before marriage I might add.

    Anyway, just imagine if whatshername could stop immigration, the construction industry would slowly grind down to a halt. We are not breeding enough brats to maintain that industry without immigration.

    Try looking for inner peace.

    Cheers

  62. Kaye Lee

    I think migrants are being wrongly scapegoated for the economic woes that people are feeling due to the unfair distribution of wealth. Much easier to point the finger at migrants than the big corporates who are the real villians and the politicians who facilitate their wealth accumulation, tax avoidance, and erosion of working conditions. The rise of part time work and sham contracting started decades ago.

  63. abbienoiraude

    Finally after all these hours I can breathe out because of you Miriam.
    Thank you.
    We are better’n’this.
    You explain it well.

    I have heard the ‘overpopulation’ argument since 1970. I am over it.
    I can trace the tragectory downwards from my ancestry till it gets to me and my husband.
    Down from 10-12 children a piece to now three who only one has reproduced. The other two say; No; Never.

    Children are the future.
    Babies are the hope.
    Immigrants are the educators.
    Asylum seekers teach us compassion and empathy.
    Refugees give us food for thought.

    Our Original Australians keep us grounded and our ancestry teaches us humility.

    Fear should not have any place in this Nation of ours…not if we had good leadership.

  64. Brian Walley

    PH is a racist and a bigot. Her irrational hatred of muslims is bigotry, not racism. You should expand your vocabulary and learn some new words.

  65. Captain Awesome

    1) Islam is not a race. Being opposed to Islam is not racism. 2) Before whining that anyone is a racist, you should first establish why you believe that assertion is useful at all. I mean, why do you say racism is a bad thing? Any time you wish to portray anyone as a villain because they’re X, you must explain why X is bad. 3) To all those whining that Hanson is whining, well, all your comments here are actually whining. 4) Finally, disliking Islam is neither irrational nor bigotry. It’s a perfectly rational position given that an increasing number of Muslims are embracing extremism, and every single group recognised as a terrorist group by Australia is Muslim. Every Muslim nation applies different rights for men and women. Most Muslim nations oppress the heck out of homosexuals and pretty much everyone else. Islam is an ideology which is all about crushing the human spirit and destroying individual liberty. Every Muslim nation in the world demonstrates this, despite the protests of Western social justice warriors.

  66. Harquebus

    Bobrafto
    “underpopulated for a Capitalist system that depends on growth”
    This why capitalism will fail. I hope that you were being sarcastic.

    “Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.” — Kenneth Boulding

    Matters Not
    Thank you for that ethnocentism link. I had not heard that term before.

    “Perhaps you might give some examples of ‘human nature’ which can be universalised across cultures, historical epochs and the like?”
    Warfare and social hierarchies.

    jimhazNovember 29, 2016 at 10:14 pm
    Great post mate. I agree.

    Cheers.

  67. Captain Awesome

    And no, racism is not about power or privilege. Racism is racism no matter who says it, regardless of whether they’re a member of a minority or a majority, regardless of their power or privilege. If a poor, unemployed person who is a member of an oppressed minority says “I hate all people or racial group X because they’re all inherently evil!”, that is racism. His personal wealth and status have no effect on the definition of the word racism.

  68. Diana Lea

    Pauline Hanson is where she is purely and simply for MONEY! She will say and do anything
    to ensure that it keeps coming into her coffers! Nuff said!

  69. Carol Taylor

    Kaye Lee and,

    I think migrants are being wrongly scapegoated for the economic woes that people are feeling due to the unfair distribution of wealth. Much easier to point the finger at migrants than the big corporates who are the real villians and the politicians who facilitate their wealth accumulation, tax avoidance, and erosion of working conditions. The rise of part time work and sham contracting started decades ago.

    Exactly! Which is why every single time there is bad economic news, recommendations about how negative gearing is unsustainable, flat wages, the weakening of the full time work force, out pops a Dutton or a Hanson to play the race card, thereby taking the real news off everyone’s radar. You have a problem? There’s the reason..it’s that woman wearing a burqa…attack now!

  70. Kaye Lee

    “why do you say racism is a bad thing?”

    It can cause terrible trauma for its victims. It can lead to mental health issues, feelings of depression and isolation, radicalisation and suicide. It can lead to people being denied equal access to jobs, services and education and therefore not fulfilling their potential to be a contributing productive member of society. It can make children not want to go to school. It shows an unjustified arrogance of superiority from the advantaged who, by luck of birth, have been gifted far greater opportunity. It threatens social cohesion and shows a distinct lack of empathy.

    And mainly, it shows ignorant irrational fear of “the other” and is nothing more than cowardly bullying.

    “Finally, disliking Islam is neither irrational nor bigotry. It’s a perfectly rational position ”

    It is entirely irrational to blame billions of people for the actions of a few. By all means, condemn the behaviour of terrorists, but don’t blame entirely innocent people who have suffered far more from this terrorism than any of us can ever imagine. It is their countries being decimated, their families being killed. Innocent people who have done nothing wrong are vilified for no reason. Religions of all description have a lot to answer for, as do we who have interfered in the politics of other countries, and the colonisers who raped, pillaged and plundered their way all over the world, dividing up the spoils.

  71. Freethinker

    Kaye I wonder if the problem is the religions or just the people that use it manipulating their sacred book to their benefit.
    Unfortunately they get away with it exploiting the ignorance of their followers.

  72. Kaye Lee

    Freethinker, I was an active member of my church for a long time. The thing I enjoyed was the good deeds they did in the community. The thing that drove me away was the emphasis on worship and the intolerance. I also strongly disagree with their stance on reproductive rights and the second class status afforded to women. Their fixation with procreation is based on building up their tribal numbers. It is ludicrous to base laws on man’s interpretation of ancient parables.

  73. OrchidJar

    I think it’s a huge mistake to dismiss people like Hanson and her supporters outright as simple racist idiots or other such abuse. These are very real people with very real concerns and any attempt by the left to condescendingly ignore them only confirms their belief that no one is listening to their plight, and that the left is now defined by a disgusting arrogance.
    They’d be right on both counts.
    Nearly every oral account i’ve read on the US election as to why people voted for Trump has one or both of those reasons bubbling up.

    I think the important thing is to engage them in a contest of ideas; discuss, debate, argue their issues and redress with facts and figures, with policy and with appeals to our common humanity, our common responsibility to, for example, the asylum seekers who seem to worry them so much. I think it’s important to listen to ideas you don’t particularly like in the hope that, by listening, and maybe by empathising, you can arrive at a place of dialogue, rather than remain in the hateful screaming match that’s so far defined relations.
    Look how well that’s just worked out for the US.

    Dismissing them outright, or dismissing any legitimate attempt at a conversation of ideas, with a ‘f*ck off’ is not only the response of an idiot but also an obvious recipe for disaster and in my opinion only demonstrates the axiom that two extremes meet.

  74. OrchidJar

    to jimhaz,
    “When a social system starts to throw out wobbles like Hanson, it is a sign that something fundamental needs fixing”

    Absolutely agree.

  75. jimhaz

    We don’t have a high immigration rate, says Miriam

    From the ABS

    “Overseas born Aussies highest in over a century

    The proportion of Australians who were born overseas has hit its highest point in over 120 years, with 28 per cent of Australia’s population born overseas, according to figures released today by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS).

    “Australia has traditionally had a high proportion of migrants, but we’ve now hit a peak not seen since the late 1800s,” said Beidar Cho from the ABS.

    The percentage of Australian residents born overseas has increased every year for the last 15 years.

    The number of Australian residents born in India has almost tripled over the last 10 years and residents born in China have more than doubled in this time.”

    Me

    In terms of overseas born population we have the 7th highest rate in the world of those countries with populations over 5 million.

    All 6 countries above us have special circumstances: UAT, Saudi Arabia have high rates due to servants from the Phillipines. Jordan would include war torn neighbours and is attractive to moderate muslims. Singapore and Hong Kong are countries created as trade hubs. Switzerland is a finance hub for Europe.

    Country Immigrant %
    United Arab Emirates 83.7
    Singapore 42.9
    Jordan 40.2
    Hong Kong 38.9
    Saudi Arabia 31.4
    Switzerland 28.9
    Australia 27.7

    Compared to:
    Canada 20.7
    New Zealand 25.1
    Ireland 15.9
    Germany 14.9
    United States 14.3 and voted for Trump
    Sweden 14.3
    Spain 14
    United Kingdom 11.3 and still had Brexit
    France 11.1
    Netherlands 11.1
    China 0.3
    Philippines 0.3

  76. Kaye Lee

    “I think it’s important to listen to ideas”

    Me too. Hanson doesn’t offer ideas (well not legal ones anyway). She tries to apportion blame in all the wrong directions.

    “Populists across the globe are using immigration and free trade as simple, understandable scapegoats for legitimate grievances. To counter the appeal of these deeply misleading, but also deeply effective, scare campaigns, established political parties must focus their manifestos on the underlying causes of economic dissatisfaction: stagnant incomes, rising inequality, falling economic mobility, and flagrant tax avoidance by the richest individuals and corporations.”

  77. Miriam English

    Captain Awesome, you are correct that an informed opposition to Muslims is not racism. It is, as Matters Not explained, ethnocentrism. However Pauline Hanson and many of her more unenlightened followers think “Arab” when the word “Muslim” or “Islam” is used. They do use it as a racist term.

    Those who are a little more knowledgeable protest that it isn’t racism. Often this protestation is made in attempt to legitimise it, but it is still wrong. You can’t characterise a whole group of people as anything. All Australians are not greedy, obese pigs fixated on squandering as much of the world’s produce as they can suck up. Some certainly are (Gina Reinhart comes to mind), but many people think I’m dangerously skinny and that I consume far too little food and other goods. Australians are a diverse group, just as Chinese, black-skinned people, Eskimos, Scandinavians, and others are.

    You say increasing numbers of Muslims are embracing extremism and every single group recognised as a terrorist group by Australia is Muslim. I think you’ve been spending too much time having your brain washed by the mainstream media. I have never seen any evidence that Muslims are increasingly becoming extremist. What terrorism there is in Islamic countries tends to have been created by Christian terrorism — invading countries to steal their resources or to destabilise their governments as part of lunatic global power-plays, using drones to assassinate people but often blowing up weddings, schools, and hospitals.

    Did you know the genocide in Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia, the snipers picking off people in markets, turning families out in the street and confiscating their homes, the concentration camps systematically starving people to death, the mass graves filled by people lined up and shot… that this was done by Christians against their Muslim neighbors that they’d lived peacefully with for decades? In some cases, centuries.

    Did you know that the bloody genocide in Rwanda, where the Hutu population rose up and used machetes to hack to death vast numbers of Tutsi people, was propelled by Christian preachers?

    Do you know that the genocide sporadically continuing in Sri Lanka is being waged by Buddhist Sinhalese against Hindu Tamils and Muslims? Has been for decades now.

    Do you remember Anders Behring Breivik, the Christian terrorist in Norway who killed 85 people, mostly children at a youth camp?

    Of all the mass shootings in USA, I can only think of one who was Muslim. All the rest were Christian.

    We’ve had no Muslim terrorism inside Australia, but plenty of angry husbands killing their wives and children and then themselves. And a number mentally unbalanced individuals shooting random people. It is frankly amazing we’ve had so little Muslim disaffection here, considering idiots like Abbott, Hanson, and others vilify them every chance they get and we’ve taken part in absurd wars whose targets were Muslim.

    And yes, Islam, like every idiotic religion that people dream up, is not a good thing. But Muslims have a great track record of helping the poor. Charity is very important in that religion, so that many Muslims are warm, helpful, and generous. Christianity is a terrible religion filled with horrid violence (Crusades, witch burning, current blood-thirsty Christian wars), but many Christians are lovely people who would go out of their way to help you. You can’t characterise a large group of people by their religion, no matter how dopey, homophobic, and misogynist that religion is.

    You asked, “why do you say racism is a bad thing?” Kaye gave you one answer. I would answer that aside from the day-to-day evils that racism perpetrates, it makes possible the nightmare of genocide.

  78. jimhaz

    “Populists across the globe are using immigration and free trade as simple, understandable scapegoats for legitimate grievances. To counter the appeal of these deeply misleading, but also deeply effective, scare campaigns, established political parties must focus their manifestos on the underlying causes of economic dissatisfaction: stagnant incomes, rising inequality, falling economic mobility, and flagrant tax avoidance by the richest individuals and corporations.”

    If one examines in more details each of those factors in this quote by a pair of spin doctors, Andrew Charlton and Lachlan Harris, high immigration plays a big role in at least the first two.

    stagnant incomes – because we keep importing cheaper labour, there is no wage inflation for the working class. No benefits at all from increased productivity other than (possibly only) keeping ones job

    rising inequality – because only a certain more highly skilled group of people end up as managers of the migrants – the optimistic opportunistic bullshitters mainly. Often driven or money hungry people that will find a way in any circumstances – other than recessions.

    The latter two, economic mobility & tax avoidance are partial outcomes of the first two.

    They are talking about stuff that yes should be done IN ADDITION to lower immigration. Economic mobility shouldn’t need to be a big issue – though it is in an intergenerational sense (need death taxes).

    Charlton worked for the Boston Consulting Group – he would be severely tainted. I feel Harris helped Rudd ruin the ALP by giving him bad strategic advise (the advise of under-experienced youth).

  79. Kaye Lee

    jimhaz, the stagnant wages and rising inequality are because the increased profit is taken by the owners of the capital. Blame them. trickle down does not work. Also blame Hawke’s Accord and the undermining of unions.

    I will never understand why the migrants are blamed for the exploitation by businesses. Blame the government. Blame the corporates. It is them who would rather import a ready made worker than invest the money to train our own. It is them that offshores our contracts because it is cheaper in the short term but so much more expensive in the long term social cost. It is them who refuse to buy Australian.

  80. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “It can cause terrible trauma for its victims. It can lead to mental health issues, feelings of depression and isolation, radicalisation and suicide. It can lead to people being denied equal access to jobs, services and education and therefore not fulfilling their potential to be a contributing productive member of society. It can make children not want to go to school. It shows an unjustified arrogance of superiority from the advantaged who, by luck of birth, have been gifted far greater opportunity. It threatens social cohesion and shows a distinct lack of empathy.”

    It is not racism which causes these problems. Racism is an ideology, a belief, nothing more. What causes those problems is unjust and uncompassionate actions against people, which may be driven by racism or may be driven by any other ideology. It’s not the ideology which is a problem. It’s the actions.

    “And mainly, it shows ignorant irrational fear of “the other” and is nothing more than cowardly bullying.”

    Why do you believe it is ignorant and irrational? Consider the example of the young girl who was gang raped by African migrants a few years ago in Sydney. If she has developed a deep fear of African men, or men in general, that is neither ignorant nor irrational. It is perfectly reasonable and rational based on her experiences.

    “It is entirely irrational to blame billions of people for the actions of a few. By all means, condemn the behaviour of terrorists, but don’t blame entirely innocent people who have suffered far more from this terrorism than any of us can ever imagine. It is their countries being decimated, their families being killed. Innocent people who have done nothing wrong are vilified for no reason. Religions of all description have a lot to answer for, as do we who have interfered in the politics of other countries, and the colonisers who raped, pillaged and plundered their way all over the world, dividing up the spoils.”

    Extremist attitudes are spreading in Islamic nations and communities. The number of people believing homosexuals should be killed, for example, is increasing within that subset of the human race. Similarly problematic beliefs (e.g. women should not be educated, should shut up and stay home, can be beaten, et cetera) are also spreading among Muslims. And as more Muslims inhabit Western nations, that means more people in Western nations have those beliefs. Those beliefs are entirely at odds with the values of any liberal and free society. Therefore it is not irrational to want them to not be here.

    Analogy time. If 10% of all dogs have rabies, and the percentage is increasing by 5% every year, it is entirely rational to not want to leave my door open so dogs can come and go. I don’t care if some of those dogs don’t have rabies. More and more of them do have rabies, and every second my door remains open increases the risk of my child being bitten by a dog with rabies.

    It should be noted that terrorism related deaths increased in OECD nations by 650% last year, and it was primarily due to Muslim terrorism.

    As for the naughty actions of other religions and groups in history, past misdeeds do not justify current or future misdeeds.

  81. Captain Awesome

    @Miriam English:

    “However Pauline Hanson and many of her more unenlightened followers”

    Are they “unenlightened” merely because you don’t agree with them? You should read this: http://www.captain-awesome.net/2016/10/12/linking-ideology-and-intelligence/

    “They do use it as a racist term.”

    Can you support that assertion? Or are you just making stuff up to suit your narrative?

    “You can’t characterise a whole group of people as anything.”

    Actually I can. You simply prefer that people don’t. There’s a difference between what people can do, and what you prefer.

    “You say increasing numbers of Muslims are embracing extremism and every single group recognised as a terrorist group by Australia is Muslim. I think you’ve been spending too much time having your brain washed by the mainstream media. I have never seen any evidence that Muslims are increasingly becoming extremist.”

    Pew Research is one of the most respected and trusted statistical research companies. You can view their results and discussions here:

    The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

    And as I stated earlier, every terrorist group recognised as such by Australia is a Muslim group: https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/Listedterroristorganisations/Pages/default.aspx

    “What terrorism there is in Islamic countries tends to have been created by Christian terrorism — invading countries to steal their resources or to destabilise their governments as part of lunatic global power-plays, using drones to assassinate people but often blowing up weddings, schools, and hospitals.”

    1) How is it Christian terrorism?

    2) Why does one harmful act justify another harmful act?

    3) Please believe me, I am 100% against Western governments screwing around in other countries for their resources or for anything else.

    “Did you know the genocide in Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia, the snipers picking off people in markets, turning families out in the street and confiscating their homes, the concentration camps systematically starving people to death, the mass graves filled by people lined up and shot… that this was done by Christians against their Muslim neighbors that they’d lived peacefully with for decades?”

    Yes. I was aware of that. How does that justify Muslims killing people?

    “Did you know that the bloody genocide in Rwanda, where the Hutu population rose up and used machetes to hack to death vast numbers of Tutsi people, was propelled by Christian preachers?”

    Bullshit. That was inter-tribal violence, pure and simple, and happens every other day in Africa.

    “Do you know that the genocide sporadically continuing in Sri Lanka is being waged by Buddhist Sinhalese against Hindu Tamils and Muslims?”

    What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China?

    “Do you remember Anders Behring Breivik, the Christian terrorist in Norway who killed 85 people, mostly children at a youth camp?”

    Of course. Does his ridiculously moronic belief or his evil act justify anything?

    “Of all the mass shootings in USA, I can only think of one who was Muslim. All the rest were Christian.”

    I’m not surprised, given the number of armed Christians there. Does this somehow argue against anything I said earlier?

    “We’ve had no Muslim terrorism inside Australia…”

    Lindt Cafe, where the perpetrator specifically asked the police to bring him an ISIS flag…?

    “But Muslims have a great track record of helping the poor. Charity is very important in that religion, so that many Muslims are warm, helpful, and generous.”

    Bollocks. There’s a reason why the bottom countries on every quality of life index are Muslim, and in Africa or the Middle East. It’s the exact same reason why people migrate from those nations to Western nations, and not the other way around.

    “You can’t characterise a large group of people by their religion, no matter how dopey, homophobic, and misogynist that religion is.”

    Sure I can.

    “I would answer that aside from the day-to-day evils that racism perpetrates, it makes possible the nightmare of genocide.”

    Entirely wrong. Look at the huge number of deaths attributed to Mao’s China, and they were all atheists. Look at the Stalin era, and they were atheists. It wasn’t racism responsible in either case. It was political ideology and the desire to expunge religions.

  82. Miriam English

    Captain Awesome, I suppose that means you don’t sit on furniture, as people dying in accidents falling off furniture exceeds the number of people killed by terrorists.

    I imagine you don’t go out on the roads either. They are incredibly dangerous, with about 1.2 million people killed each year, worldwide.

    I do hope you don’t smoke — about 5 million killed each year.

    But I know you are a genuine person who truly believes bad things should be fixed. Please do explain your (I’m sure magnificent) efforts to stop the worst and most deadly scourge that kills around 16 million people every year — starvation.

    But you’re right, terrorism is awful. It kills about 600 people each year, worldwide.

    Where did you get your figure of a 650% increase in terrorism-related deaths? I sincerely doubt its validity. It would still only increase the number to the amount of people killed in the twin towers attack (surely not a coincidence).

  83. Miriam English

    Captain Awesome (such a humble name to hide behind) you also make a very strange and flawed attempt to distance racism from the evils it causes. You can see, can’t you, that without racism such evils would not come to pass? Racism is pivotal in such things. It is usually the overriding factor.

    You are twisting yourself in semantic knots trying to make racism not responsible for such attacks. “Oh, but it’s just another harmless philosophy.” Yeah, right. Pffft!

  84. Miriam English

    Captain Awesome, you seem to have missed my point in listing other xenophobic evils. I wasn’t trying to justify evils perpetrated by muslims. I was trying to indicate that your concentration on them as a group is misguided. Xenophobic people tend to be mean and dangerous to other people.

    Look a little further into the Rwanda massacre. The good Christian churches were largely responsible for pushing it. But, yeah, racism was the main motive.

    When I lived in Melbourne I had a number of friends and neighbors who were Muslim. They were always kind and generous. The Koran is very explicit about helping the poor. Most Muslims, like most Christians, are able to ignore the nasty parts of their holy books. Some small number of each group are fundamentalist and concerned with imposing their will on others.

    I normally try to be very careful in my choice of words. I made a silly mistake when I said,
    I would answer that aside from the day-to-day evils that racism perpetrates, it makes possible the nightmare of genocide.
    I should have said “enables” instead of “makes possible”. I’m well aware that a number of genocides have occurred that weren’t motivated by racism — in fact I listed some myself.

  85. Kaye Lee

    Ummmm….no – I don’t see our constitution as evil.

    Section 116: “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion”

    Have a look at her campaign poster at the top of this article. She can’t ban mosques. It’s against the same constitution that she wants all our migrants to honour and respect.

  86. nurses1968

    “She can’t ban mosques”
    I think they could if the extreme right had the numbers in Parliament and named Islam a proscribed organisation.
    I could be wrong but that is the way it reads to me

  87. OrchidJar

    Well done to jimhaz, captain, Miriam, and Kaye for a lovely, hopefully still ongoing, conversation.

    To Kaye – November 30, 2016 at 12:55 pm,

    Yes. I read the Monthly article also ( I suggest you reference in the future) and found it not only a wonderful read but even better, highly contentious.
    So much to argue with, so little time.

  88. Kaye Lee

    “The concept that ideas can be legal or illegal is quite problematic”

    Tell that to the “second and third generation Lebanese youth” that Peter Dutton so helpfully pointed to.

    I stick to my original assertion that Pauline is peddling ideas that she cannot implement as they are unconstitutional.

    “Racism is an ideology, a belief, nothing more. What causes those problems is unjust and uncompassionate actions against people,”

    Must we really have the tree is the forest argument? If someone harbours bad thoughts that they never express in action or deed then no-one except them will ever know. I assume you don’t just mean physical actions. Are exclusion, verbal harassment and Lord of the Flies type group persecution considered actions?

  89. Miriam English

    Captain Awesome, I guess you thought I wouldn’t bother to read the article you linked to. It does not talk about an increase in Islamic extremism. It briefly discusses Muslim people’s fears of Islamic extremism, and another article it links to discusses this more fully:

    Chapter 2: Religion and Politics


    It seems most Muslims are very worried about Islamic fundamentalists and strongly disapprove of suicide bombing and killing civilians for Islam.

    You need to rethink your assumptions.

  90. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “Tell that to the “second and third generation Lebanese youth” that Peter Dutton so helpfully pointed to.”

    Hang on. Are we now debating something Dutton said? Did you just take a wild left turn into a completely different topic?

    “I stick to my original assertion that Pauline is peddling ideas that she cannot implement as they are unconstitutional.”

    That was not your original assertion. Your original assertion was “Hanson doesn’t offer ideas (well not legal ones anyway).” You specifically referred to the legality of ideas. The very concept that some ideas can or can’t be legally permitted in a society is directly contrary to the fundamentals of democracy and liberty.

    “Must we really have the tree is the forest argument? If someone harbours bad thoughts that they never express in action or deed then no-one except them will ever know.”

    I have naughty thoughts all the time. All manner of naughty thoughts. But I don’t act on them because I recognise that the sanctity of life is a wee bit more important than my preferences regarding what to do with other peoples’ lives. Thoughts and actions are absolutely not the same thing.

    “I assume you don’t just mean physical actions. Are exclusion, verbal harassment and Lord of the Flies type group persecution considered actions?”

    To quote Tommy Smothers: “The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen.” As long as you’re not committing any harmful physical act, or lobbying to get people fired (thus losing their homes) because you don’t like what they say, then you should feel free to say whatever the hell you want. And that latter (the lobbying and regulations thing) really just depends on having a government full of grown ups who accept free speech, rather than nanny state rejects who pander to special little snowflakes.

  91. Kaye Lee

    “then you should feel free to say whatever the hell you want”

    You have obviously never been a teacher. We spend 13 years instilling in your children that it is NOT ok to say whatever the hell you want. A little bit of support and we mightn’t be in this position.

    We do harmony day at school, and cooking from other countries, we learn about their cultures and their histories. We actively work to teach your children that bullying someone verbally or physically, for whatever reason, is never ok.

    In 2015, suicide was the leading cause of death among all people 15-44 years of age

    Aboriginal children aged 14 years and less are 8 times more likely to die by suicide than their non-Aboriginal peers.

    Nearly one in three deaths of Aboriginal people aged 15 to 35 years are suicides.

    There are no stats about suicides in the gay community but there was another young man who sadly died last week, his mother putting it down to the taunts from high school bullies towards her effeminate son.

    My nephew was born in the Philippines. He is still in infants school. He was watching the news and saw protests about police shooting black people. He looked at his mother and said a little fearfully “I’m black” (which I suppose he is compared to some of his friends though not others). How sad for him to have that brought to his attention.

    I would suggest you need to think more on the idea that words don’t hurt.

  92. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “You have obviously never been a teacher. We spend 13 years instilling in your children that it is NOT ok to say whatever the hell you want.”

    Yeah, teachers these days have no idea about the fundamentals, and teach kids very wrong things. We need to bring back courses in fundamental civics. Kids need to be taught the absolute importance of the fundamentals of a free society, including free speech.

    “We do harmony day at school, and cooking from other countries, we learn about their cultures and their histories.”

    We do harmony day where I work too. So what? Does the fact that you have harmony day mean kids should be taught they don’t have the right to free speech?

    “We actively work to teach your children that bullying someone verbally or physically, for whatever reason, is never ok.”

    I agree. However, it should not be dictated and regulated by destroying free speech. It should be up to parents to teach children morals and social behaviour.

    “In 2015, suicide was the leading cause of death among all people 15-44 years of age.”

    Overall leading CODs: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2015~Main%20Features~Australia's%20leading%20causes%20of%20death,%202015~3

    Suicide: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2015~Main%20Features~Intentional%20self-harm:%20key%20characteristics~8

    Are you suggesting that doing away with free speech saves lives?

    “Aboriginal children aged 14 years and less are 8 times more likely to die by suicide than their non-Aboriginal peers.”

    And our government spents 50% more per capita on aborigine health than on others. They have all sorts of special programmes and support systems which are not available to the rest of the population. Yet they still kill themselves.

    “Nearly one in three deaths of Aboriginal people aged 15 to 35 years are suicides. There are no stats about suicides in the gay community but there was another young man who sadly died last week, his mother putting it down to the taunts from high school bullies towards her effeminate son.”

    I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Are you suggesting something along the lines of “Young aborigines and gay kids keep killing themselves, and I blame free speech!”?

    “My nephew was born in the Philippines. He is still in infants school. He was watching the news and saw protests about police shooting black people. He looked at his mother and said a little fearfully “I’m black” (which I suppose he is compared to some of his friends though not others). How sad for him to have that brought to his attention.”

    So… a cop shot a black guy somewhere, and this means free speech is bad?

    “I would suggest you need to think more on the idea that words don’t hurt.”

    Of course words can hurt. Did I say they can’t? No, I did not. That’s another straw man by the way.

  93. Michael Taylor

    And our government spents 50% more per capita on aborigine health than on others. They have all sorts of special programmes and support systems which are not available to the rest of the population.

    Without substantial evidence, I would dispute that.

    It is only an urban myth that Aborigines get more than non-Indigenous Australians.

    In discussions with the Bureau of Statistics in the not too distant past I was informed that the government spends on average $x on each Australian. For Aboriginal Australians it was $x plus a whole $2. The reason it was a whopping $2 per person per year more was because of costs incurred in providing services to remote communities. And given the funding cuts to services for Indigenous Australians since 2013 I’d suggest that much of that $2 per person per year has been eroded.

  94. Kaye Lee

    Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce says he is grooming maverick north Queensland backbencher George Christensen for a future as a cabinet minister.

    Mr Christensen – who has made controversial statements on Muslim immigration, the Safe Schools anti-homophobia program and climate science – has caused headaches for the Turnbull government by threatening to cross the floor on issues such as superannuation and a banking royal commission.

    Mr Joyce spoke to Fairfax Media as part of a profile of Mr Christensen in Saturday’s Good Weekend magazine. The cover photo features Mr Christensen displaying his Coptic arm tattoo of the Virgin Mary and baby Jesus, and holding the Nationals stockwhip, which has been used since 1917. On Wednesday, when asylum seeker advocates loudly protested during question time, he tweeted a photo of the whip and the caption: “Say hello to my little friend, hippies”.

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/barnaby-joyce-vows-lnp-maverick-george-christensen-will-become-a-cabinet-minister-20161130-gt12kw.html

    http://nnimgt-a.akamaihd.net/transform/v1/crop/frm/silverstone-feed-data/c01160d3-6ce5-4c97-adad-af567895b76e.jpg/r0_0_729_409_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg

  95. Michael Taylor

    Perhaps he should be the Government Whip. ?

  96. Kaye Lee

    I have no words

    On your previous comment Michael, you may find this article interesting. They include “law and order” and all sorts of things when inflating the Aboriginal spend.

    $25.4 billion spent on Aboriginal disadvantage is a lie

  97. Robyn Dunphy

    Great work Kaye. Just great work.

  98. Kaye Lee

    And could I say, I am sick to death of this ridiculous notion that anti-discrimination laws restrict the freedoms of the majority. Conservative claptrap! We have enormous freedom of speech here, only curtailed by the Liberal government who don’t want anyone criticising them.

    Thanks Robyn. I have appreciated your pieces too.

  99. Michael Taylor

    Thanks for that link, Kaye. There are so many fallacies out there. Just when you think you’ve heard them all, up pops another one.

  100. Kaye Lee

    That was October 2013, before they cut kazillions more from the ATSI budget. But I think I remember Tony building a few more police stations and hiring more truancy officers and I am sure they have built more prisons so that would have compensated for any cuts. Look how much we are spending on them. (Note they include teachers’ salaries, all normal welfare payments that any Australian receives, etc etc )

  101. Kaye Lee

    I think there has been valid criticism of the lack of formal centralised evaluation of what works and what doesn’t….but that is not what was addressed by Abbott’s cuts and the installation of Warren Mundine who is so very obviously out of his depth. I am also less enamoured by the sonorous tones of Noel Pearson when he strays into the area of education. Far too many people with no teaching experience think they know what’s best.

    What is NOT working is the punitive approach, regardless of how much money they throw at it. And they have the hide to say that more money for education won’t help. It would be a damn sight better there than on prisons.

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/68/1c/c6/681cc6db95b4ceee9ed8d54ad302416f.jpg

  102. Matters Not

    Captain Awesome is the source of much amusement. Example one:

    Racism is an ideology, a belief, nothing more

    Make of that what you will. Hilarious.

    BTW, if you visit his site, which I suspect his visits are all about, you will only do it once.

    Personally, I blame the education system.

  103. Matters Not

    What I really find concerning is the number of Australians who construct their own (fear) reality when it comes to Islam.

    Seems to me that Muslims have much, much more to fear from Christian Australians and their terrorist activities than vice versa. Do the maths. How many Australians, in Australia have been killed in Australia by Muslim ‘terrorists’ over the last decade? Certainly in single figures. As to how many Muslims have been killed in the Middle East over the last decade or so by Australian ‘terrorists’ probably runs into the thousands,

    (And for those who think Australian aren’t ‘terrorists’ (definitions are always problematic), put yourself into the shoes of those Iraqui citizens who dreaded the advent of the gloaming which saw the beginning of another night of bombing which resulted in the deaths of any number of Muslims as well as the almost endless destruction of property.)

    Yes we were the uninvited ‘terrorists’ and we fill that very same role today.

  104. Matters Not

    teachers these days have no idea about the fundamentals

    Again, it’s hilarious. Try a little historical investigation re claims about the decline in ‘standards’.

    In the English speaking world, that decline in standards (supposedly) began in or about the 12th century when those who could read and write was perhaps in the single digit category – and as every critic knows that decline has been accelerating over recent years.

    It’s a ‘fundament’ argument with a particular emphasis on the ‘buttocks or anal region’.

  105. Kaye Lee

    Direct instruction, standardised testing, discipline, religion…that’ll do it!

    We don’t want no stinkin’ creativity, initiative, co-operation, teamwork and communication. We don’t want the kids doing research, critical analysis or lateral thinking. We don’t want them asking questions and we don’t need their suggestions.

    And the arts are just a hobby.

    More time on phonics I say so they will be able to pronounce everything and understand nothing.

  106. Matters Not

    TIMS was all over the media today with the emphasis on ‘relative position’ as measured. That Australia’s ‘achievement’ continues to be handicapped by those students in the lower SES categories only warranted passing reference was telling.

    We keep pouring extra dollars into the higher SES (advantaged) students and continue to deny ‘equity’.

    To be quite honest I found Tanya’s response to be rather weak. There’s a very sound case to be made (above and beyond the Gonski mantra – which Labor ran away from) but there was no evidence that the policy homework is being done.

    The Gonski recommendations are history. The ‘model’ can be rescued but serious policy options need to be developed.

  107. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce says he is grooming maverick north Queensland backbencher George Christensen for a future as a cabinet minister.”

    Is there some problem with either his Christian tattoo, his traditional attire, or his beliefs? Are you trying to discriminate against him?

  108. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “And could I say, I am sick to death of this ridiculous notion that anti-discrimination laws restrict the freedoms of the majority. Conservative claptrap! We have enormous freedom of speech here, only curtailed by the Liberal government who don’t want anyone criticising them.”

    Enjoy your moral outrage. But when you find your own rights curtailed, and restrictions placed on what you can think or say, don’t start crying.

    And no, we do not have free speech. The High Court has the ability to literally outlaw any ideas or words at any time.

  109. Carol Taylor

    If we have our rights curtailed in this country, it won’t be because of any minority group but because of the likes of Brandis.

  110. Carol Taylor

    Nope, no problems with the tat (well, I’m not all that into tats, but each to their own) but it’s probably the whip that phases me. What on earth does he think that he’ll be the Minister for..BDSM?

  111. Michael Taylor

    Captain A, thank you for those links. Now if you could find the time perhaps you might like to do some research into the factors behind poor Aboriginal health. It’s not all black and white.

  112. Michael Taylor

    Captain A, I might add that I find your arguments are similar to thus: Everybody who ate bananas in the 18th century is now dead. Therefore, eating bananas in the 18th century killed you.

  113. Kaye Lee

    You could also read the article I linked to which shows just how spurious those figures are. Look at what they include when they talk about what is spent on “Aboriginal disadvantage” and how much of that money actually makes it to Aboriginal communities. Or do you think they should be thankful for their new prison?

    As for education standards declining, I am with MN. Our children know more now than they ever have. They have access to a world of information, more than we ever had. You are basing your premise on standardised testing which ranks countries but does not measure actual achievement. Other countries improving makes our relative position go backwards, not our actual attainment.

    And there are many educators questioning the value of standardised testing. There are very promising results from programs that encourage continual improvement through individualised programming – each student aims for personal bests, not to beat the other kid. This allows them to develop their learning in the way best suited for them to achieve their potential – something that can be done by very different pathways for different individuals.

    As I said before, to empower the minds of the future we must encourage curiosity, creativity, initiative, co-operation, teamwork, communication,research skills, critical analysis and lateral thinking – or we can restrict them to what WE know and make every teacher’s pay dependent on Naplan results and watch all that wither as we teach to a test.

  114. Michael Taylor

    Captain A, you show a lack of knowledge when it comes to Aboriginal Australians. That’s not uncommon.

  115. Michael Taylor

    So first you say there’s no more spent on aborigine health services,

    Please show me where I said that. I’ve searched this thread, I even searched Google to see where I said it. Can’t find it anywhere.

  116. Kaye Lee

    As for George Christensen, I have written thousands of words about why this man should be nowhere near a front bench, or any sort of position of power for that matter.

    Regarding the photo, just why do you think he is thrusting his Christian tattoo at the camera? And does it not disturb you that he calls the whip his “little friend” implying he would like to use it on people who disagree with his special brand of ignorance.

    I find that photo very disturbing, just as I did when Alexander Downer, Cheryl Kernot and Julia Gillard did a similar thing. When Gillard did a photo shoot Julie Bishop ridiculed her.

    “I don’t think it’s necessary to get dressed up in designer clothing and borrow clothing and make-up to grace the cover of magazines,” Ms Bishop told The Sunday Times.

    “You’re not a celebrity, you’re an elected representative, you’re a member of parliament. You’re not Hollywood and I think that when people overstep that line they miss the whole point of that public role.”

    Ms Bishop said posing for magazine covers was “not my style”.

    “Of course, people want to know more about you, but I don’t think you should be courting that celebrity status as if you’re a fashion model or a TV star, because you’re not,” she said.

    That was, of course, before she appeared in Harper’s Bazaar and Who magazine where she “talks fashion, running, and style”.

  117. helvityni

    Captain, those arts/humanities types as you call them, might build bridges between people, between nations: they’ll prevent wars and suffering from happening…not bad?

  118. Kaye Lee

    You are speaking to a maths teacher so let me explain how wrong you are.

    When I was at school I had to use log tables to do calculations. This was so time consuming that it placed great restrictions on what we could do. We could learn concepts but applying them to real world data was a very slow process. Then we got calculators and then computers. This opened up whole new areas for us and gave us the time to start teaching things like coastal navigation, the maths of building and construction, space mathematics etc – we could apply the pure maths.

    Children get out of the classroom a lot more nowadays. They see maths in action. They are challenged to problem solve. They are involved in designing robots and solar-powered vehicles and you should look up how well we do in those international challenges.

    “Our student wins international aerospace ideas competition”

    https://www.maths.unsw.edu.au/news/2016-11/our-student-wins-international-aerospace-ideas-competition

    “USC students win international law competition”

    http://www.usc.edu.au/explore/usc-news-exchange/news-archive/2016/september/usc-students-win-international-law-competition

    UQ students win international design competition

    http://www.architecture.uq.edu.au/node/789

    Aussie students win global Land Rover competition

    http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/ED4F8E5177B97F0BCA257FF1000D068F

    Student team crowned champions in autonomous robotics competition

    http://media.uow.edu.au/news/UOW222054.html

    I would also like to point out the ethnic diversity of most of those Australian winning teams. Our children know how to work together to achieve.

  119. Kaye Lee

    Which brings me to the very obvious point that it is largely children from low SES areas that are making overall results comparatively bad so that is where the most resources should be directed – except of course the privileged taxpayers want it to be spent on a 5th school oval and a world class recording studio and some Olympic grade rowing sculls. Aboriginal communities can have more truancy officers.

  120. Captain Awesome

    @helvityni:

    “Captain, those arts/humanities types as you call them, might build bridges between people, between nations: they’ll prevent wars and suffering from happening…not bad?”

    We know all the advancement of the species stuff is produced by the scientists and engineers and medical researchers.

    We know all the wars are created by lawyers and businessmen (arts/humanities graduates) who go into politics.

    How do arts/humanities people prevent wars and suffering? Do they give up on teaching wrong things and get medical degrees?

  121. Kaye Lee

    lol that’s what climate change deniers do – try to use some pseudo-babble that means nothing. See my comment from 10:01 am for some applied thinking.

  122. Michael Taylor

    Kaye, I’m beginning to think that my earlier assumption was absolutely spot-on:

    Captain A, I might add that I find your arguments are similar to thus: Everybody who ate bananas in the 18th century is now dead. Therefore, eating bananas in the 18th century killed you.

  123. Kaye Lee

    Yes Michael. I don’t think we have hope of anything but a circuitous argument for argument’s sake. Playing devil’s advocate is one thing. Being third speaker in the debate is another.

  124. Kaye Lee

    Because I spent more of their waking hours with them than their parents did CA. Teachers have a duty to not only teach their subject area, but to also provide a safe environment in which all children can learn.

  125. Captain Awesome

    @helvityni:

    “Captain, those arts/humanities types as you call them, might build bridges between people, between nations: they’ll prevent wars and suffering from happening…not bad?”

    Yep. Here they are building bridges and preventing suffering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_o08OyRvY

  126. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “Because I spent more of their waking hours with them than their parents did CA. Teachers have a duty to not only teach their subject area, but to also provide a safe environment in which all children can learn.”

    How does “I will teach them my personal morality, which is not included in the set curriculum I’m paid to teach” equate to providing a safe environment?

  127. Kaye Lee

    The first lesson every year usually involves a discussion of classroom rules. My first one was always “This is a hassle free zone. No-one has the right to make anyone else feel uncomfortable or to interrupt their learning. Questions are welcomed. We are a team and we will support each other to make this experience as rewarding and pain free as it can be.” My morality, as you call it, serves a practical purpose.

    There are social mores that allow a growing society to live together in harmony showing mutual respect. I am sorry you think them unnecessary. That is perhaps part of our problem, people are more concerned about their right to be amoral.

  128. Kaye Lee

    “To learn, children and adolescents need to feel safe and supported. Without these conditions, the mind reverts to a focus on survival. Educators in high-performing, high-poverty schools have long recognized the critical importance of providing a healthy, safe, and supportive classroom and school environment. At Port Chester Middle School and other HP/HP schools, this means all forms of safety and security while at school—food if hungry, clean clothes if needed, medical attention when necessary, counseling and other family services as required, and most of all caring adults who create an atmosphere of sincere support for the students’ well-being and academic success. When students who live in poverty experience comprehensive support that works to mitigate the limiting, sometimes destructive poverty-related forces in their lives, the likelihood for success is greatly enhanced.”

    Learning is not just about a curriculum. We also have to know how kids learn and create the conditions that facilitate that. Self-esteem is an important factor in future growth because it gives you the courage to try and the strength to try again.

  129. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “The first lesson every year usually involves a discussion of classroom rules.”

    Nothing wrong with setting the approved rules at the start.

    Are they approved by the school or government legislation? Or your own rules? Not that I disapprove of your rules as stated, apart from the “uncomfortable” thing. People being uncomfortable is subjective and dependent on the individual’s preferences, and not on the one who may allegedly make someone else uncomfortable. For example, a student may say “Anyone sitting within five metres of me makes me uncomfortable”, which is completely ridiculous but demonstrates that it depends on that person rather than anyone else.

    I’m not joking. Special little snowflakes will think up anything as an excuse to claim other people are making them uncomfortable and violating their “safe spaces”: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3323166/Some-college-students-Yale-Brown-prefer-finger-snapping-applause.html

    “There are social mores that allow a growing society to live together in harmony showing mutual respect. I am sorry you think them unnecessary.”

    These are based on Maslow’s famous pyramid, Nash’s governing dynamic, and Hamilton’s Rule.

    I never claimed they were unnecessary. That’s another straw man. I did, however, question your desire to inflict your own person morals on impressionable young minds when you are not being paid to do so.

    “That is perhaps part of our problem, people are more concerned about their right to be amoral.”

    No. The problem is that you perceive your own personal beliefs as moral, and anyone else’s as amoral. And your “I’m right and they’re wrong” morality is being inflicted upon impressionable children, with no remit to do so. And this is one of the factors contributing the decline of education in Australia.

  130. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “Learning is not just about a curriculum. We also have to know how kids learn and create the conditions that facilitate that. Self-esteem is an important factor in future growth because it gives you the courage to try and the strength to try again.”

    Teaching morality is what parents are for. Self-esteem can not be achieved by telling everyone they’re all special little snowflakes and coddling them. Self-esteem is acquired through achievement.

  131. Kaye Lee

    And how do they achieve if every day they are told how worthless they are? How do they achieve if they are scared of being beaten up either on their way home or, worse still, when they get there. How do they achieve if they are hungry or can’t afford a calculator. How do they achieve if they are forced to become invisible to survive.

    You continually accuse me of “strawman” while saying that I am imposing my morality on others.

    Schools are organisations with hundreds if not thousands of members who successfully co-exist. There is no corruption from the elite pocketing money from the budget or receiving personal financial gain from their decisions (I am obviously not talking about private colleges here). All particpants are particularly aware and respectful of cultural and gender issues and these are considered in applicable areas of programming as well as behaviour management and support services. We manage to get hundreds of hormone filled teenagers who are flexing their independence muscles for the first time to focus on working together to learn.

    And then they hear the arguments from, say, George Christensen that he won’t be having any Syrians in HIS electorate, they see his anti-Islam website, they hear him denigrating people on welfare and his view that homosexuality is deviant behaviour, and then they hear the Deputy PM praising him and grooming him for leadership. His chosen photo would look equally at home in a white supremacist magazine as it would in a gay bondage mag.

    As Liberal Senator Broadbent said about Christensen’s diatribe against Muslims….

    “The politics of fear and division have never created one job. Never come up with one invention. Never started a new business. And never given a child a new start in life, or lifted the spirits of a nation.”

  132. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “And how do they achieve if every day they are told how worthless they are?”

    Who is telling them that? They achieve by: 1) Quality education aimed at excellent academic results; and 2) Working hard.

    “How do they achieve if they are scared of being beaten up either on their way home or, worse still, when they get there.”

    What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that the decline in education standards in Australia is due to kids getting beaten up on the way home from school?

    “You continually accuse me of “strawman” while saying that I am imposing my morality on others.”

    You said it. You said “We actively work to teach your children that bullying someone verbally or physically, for whatever reason, is never ok.” That’s not some universal law. That’s your morality. I personally don’t approve of bullying, but I don’t assume my own belief is some carved in stone law of the universe. Any familiarity with history will show that it’s not any sort of universal rule. Our society has lasted two hundred years and has already lost most of its manufacturing, and its education system is in decline. The Spartans used bullying to enhance strength, and their society was on top of the world for eight centuries.

    “We manage to get hundreds of hormone filled teenagers who are flexing their independence muscles for the first time to focus on working together to learn.”

    Yes, and schools and military forces have been doing that for millennia.

    “And then they hear the arguments from, say, George Christensen that he won’t be having any Syrians in HIS electorate, they see his anti-Islam website, they hear him denigrating people on welfare and his view that homosexuality is deviant behaviour, and then they hear the Deputy PM praising him and grooming him for leadership.”

    It’s supposedly a free society. He can have those beliefs if he wants. And parents can teach such ideas to their kids if they want. That’s their choice.

    “The politics of fear and division have never created one job. Never come up with one invention. Never started a new business. And never given a child a new start in life, or lifted the spirits of a nation.”

    1) It’s based on one of those leftist assumptions that those with whom they disagree are all about fear and division.

    2) Fear and division have created jobs, inventions, businesses, new starts in life, and lifted the spirits of nations. Again, a familiarity with history is good. The rise of the NAZIs was all about fear and division.

    – It created a huge number of jobs, turning the economy of Germany around completely.
    – It resulted in many new inventions. Unfortunately many of them were about killing people.
    – It started many new businesses (many of which are still operating today, such as the big chemical manufacturers).
    – It gave many children a new start in life. The NAZIs literally set up breeding houses for single Germanic women, where they would be visited by appropriate German men and be impregnated.
    – The German people had been crushed in all ways after WW1, and their rise toward WW2 lifted their (many of them at least) spirits greatly.

    While I do not approve of the whole fear and division thing, the quote about it is demonstrably wrong.

    It is also wrong and simple-minded to assume “Anyone who doesn’t agree with me is all about fear and division”.

  133. Kaye Lee

    This discussion on the Conversation is relevant.

    the big moral question is surely, “how should we live together?”.

    In approaching such a question, the individual ethical answer can be limited by its essential egotism. It can be restricted to one’s own worldview rather than being inherently aware of the existence and relevance of others. Since recognition of others is implicit to moral questions moral questions can and must be answered universally. This requires having a shared dialogue – precisely since these questions deal with good, right, and justice for all.

    Put another way, moral decision-making relocates ethical decision-making away from an individualistic reflection on imperatives, utility or virtue, into a social space. In that space one is implicitly aware of the other, wherein we understand from the start that we need to have a dialogue. There is a difference between what I should do in an ethical dilemma, and what we should do in a moral dilemma.

    In ethical dilemmas, individual decision-making may draw on the frameworks of “must-do” imperatives, utility consequences, the seeking of goodness, or a guiding framework from God.

    But ethical decisions should recognise the context within which they are set. That is, they must recognise that duties can be ranked in a hierarchy (for example, to stop at an accident to render assistance trumps the promise of meeting for coffee); in a similar way, consequences can be ranked too.

    In moral decisions, in which the importance of others and their actual situation in the world, is recognised, community decisions are based on dialogue between all those on whom the decision impacts. That dialogue should aim to be inclusive, non-coercive, self-reflective, and seek consensus among real people, rather than seek an elusive absolute moral truth.

    https://theconversation.com/you-say-morals-i-say-ethics-whats-the-difference-30913

    Are you suggesting Nazism was a successful sustainable model or just a temporary sugar hit for the privileged and elite based on lies whilst minorities suffered incredible torment. Slavery created jobs too

  134. Terry2

    Is Captain Awesome the reincarnation of Neil of Sydney ?

    I’m detecting similar pedantry !

  135. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “This discussion on the Conversation is relevant.”

    I try to avoid it, as it is primarily an echo chamber for social justice warriors.

    “the big moral question is surely, ‘how should we live together?’.”

    That’s actually a secondary matter. The first question, upon which it relies, is “Should we live together?”

    Improvement comes from competition, from adversity. Predators are smart because it requires skill and effort to acquire sustenance. Cows are dumb because it doesn’t take much brain power to catch some grass. All our advances have been achieved as a result of attempts to overcome some form of difficulty, and competition with others has been a major source of such difficulty.

    If all of humanity existed in perfect peace and harmony, our progress would probably slow down quite a lot. We’d also be completely defenceless and destined for extinction when one group decided to abandon that peace and harmony and knock off the rest of us.

    In short, competition is good, and competition requires the existence of groups.

    Then there’s the issue of diversity and evolution. Evolution is served well by diversity among any species. The probability of survival increases if there is more diversity. Making us all homogenous is bad.

    If you consider the long term future, and the possibility of humanity hopefully spreading to various different star systems, diversity is unavoidable. Different environmental conditions, sustenance options, technologies, and so on will unavoidably result in humans on different worlds evolving differently. That is an absolutely unavoidable fact if we end up on different planets.

    Actually this can be seen in past and current evolutionary differences between groups of humans.

    Difference is good. Divergence is unavoidable. Competition is beneficial.

    Then, after all that, you can get into the matter of “How should we live together?”, but that is a question for community within each competing group, and between separate groups. Again, there will probably be different types of communities in such a distant future, just as there are today, and that diversity of social forms will serve evolution well.

    https://theconversation.com/you-say-morals-i-say-ethics-whats-the-difference-30913

    “Are you suggesting Nazism was a successful sustainable model”

    I don’t think I suggested that.

    However, if they left out the part about attacking pretty much everyone, it may have been sustainable. I don’t know. Certainly there are similarities with the Spartans, who, as I said, remained on top for eight centuries.

    “or just a temporary sugar hit for the privileged and elite based on lies whilst minorities suffered incredible torment.”

    That seems much more likely.

    “Slavery created jobs too”

    Yes it did.

  136. Captain Awesome

    @Michael Taylor:

    “Captain A, you show a lack of knowledge when it comes to Aboriginal Australians. That’s not uncommon.”

    I know, lefties like to assume they have the monopoly on enlightenment, knowledge, morality, facts, et cetera, but that presumption is both arrogant and demonstrably wrong. Again, I have discussed it here: http://www.captain-awesome.net/2016/10/12/linking-ideology-and-intelligence/

    Beyond that… if you dislike the facts I provided earlier, take it up with the authors of the presented reports and statistics.

  137. Kaye Lee

    ” lefties like to assume they have the monopoly on enlightenment, knowledge, morality, acts, et cetera, but that presumption is both arrogant and demonstrably wrong. ”

    We should all sit at the knee of the Awesome Captain and await true enlightenment? I would suggest that conservatives dealt themselves out of the morality and enlightenment debate by their rapacious greed and willingness to lie to protect their personal interests and their total unwillingness to share the wealth created by the labour of the masses and the development of the resources owned by us all.

  138. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “We should all sit at the knee of the Awesome Captain and await true enlightenment?”

    If you want facts, you should look at science, numbers, and results. But don’t feel all uppity if the facts presented to you are in opposition to your beliefs. The facts won’t change. Your beliefs can.

    If you want enlightenment, you should look to the great teachers, Confucious, Jesus, Buddha, and so on.

  139. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “I would suggest that conservatives dealt themselves out of the morality and enlightenment debate by their rapacious greed and willingness to lie to protect their personal interests and their total unwillingness to share the wealth created by the labour of the masses.”

    Does this look familiar?

    “It is entirely irrational to blame billions of people for the actions of a few.”

    There are many conservatives out there. And most of us aren’t as you describe.

    Have you ever considered what conservative actually means?

    It means conserving, protecting, maintaining, and so on. Among Americans, it is usually applied to things like constitutional rights and the traditional social forms which built their nation. Among people like me, it means conserving the things that are necessary and the things that are most beneficial.

    It is true that the more conservative political party in the USA (the Republicans, supported by those most interested in conserving their constitutional rights and such) have been bought and paid for by big business for a long time. But those same backers own the Democrat party, including Clinton. You can see this in all the campaign funding records: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

    All said and done, it is simply vastly mistaken to blame big bad evil conservatives for all the evils of the world.

  140. Michael Taylor

    Link to as many sites as you like, but I still maintain you lack an understanding of Indigenous issues. I think it’d be wise not to even discuss Indigenous issues if I were you. You know zilch and are happy to keep it that way.

  141. Kaye Lee

    Considering the diversity of indigenous peoples, an official definition of “indigenous” has not been adopted by any UN-system body. Instead the system has developed a modern understanding of this term based on the following:

    • Self- identification as indigenous peoples at the individual level and accepted by the community as their member.
    • Historical continuity with pre-colonial and/or pre-settler societies
    • Strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources
    • Distinct social, economic or political systems
    • Distinct language, culture and beliefs
    • Form non-dominant groups of society
    • Resolve to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive peoples and communities.

  142. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “Considering the diversity of indigenous peoples, an official definition of “indigenous” has not been adopted by any UN-system body. Instead the system has developed a modern understanding of this term based on the following…”

    Indigenous means originating from the location (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/indigenous). They didn’t. They migrated here, the same as everyone else. They are also not one homogenous people, but many people who migrated here in many waves over the years.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/5/1803.abstract

  143. Michael Taylor

    My apologies, Captain A, I wasn’t aware of the great extent of knowledge you process. I know nothing, of course, because I’m a lefty. Lefties don’t have your level of knowledge.

  144. Michael Taylor

    I think you’ll find I’ve already done that.

  145. Captain Awesome

    @Michael Taylor:

    Given that your beliefs…

    “Without substantial evidence, I would dispute that.

    It is only an urban myth that Aborigines get more than non-Indigenous Australians.

    In discussions with the Bureau of Statistics in the not too distant past I was informed that the government spends on average $x on each Australian. For Aboriginal Australians it was $x plus a whole $2. The reason it was a whopping $2 per person per year more was because of costs incurred in providing services to remote communities. And given the funding cuts to services for Indigenous Australians since 2013 I’d suggest that much of that $2 per person per year has been eroded.”

    … Are in direct opposition to reality, I would dispute that.

  146. Kaye Lee

    I like facts too. These are from the Productivity Commission.

    • similar proportions of Indigenous and non-Indigenous expenditure were devoted to education and training (14.9 and 14.0 per cent), healthy lives (20.7 and 20.6 per cent), economic participation (18.2 and 22.8 per cent) and home environment (9.6 and 10.0 per cent)

    • a greater proportion of Indigenous expenditure (26.4 per cent) than non-Indigenous expenditure (13.1 per cent) was devoted to safe and supportive communities. This mainly related to expenditure on:
    – public order and safety — which accounted for 11.2 per cent of direct total Indigenous expenditure, compared with 4.6 per cent of total direct non-Indigenous expenditure
    – community support and welfare — which accounted for 13.6 per cent of total direct Indigenous expenditure compared with 6.8 per cent of direct non-Indigenous expenditure.

    • a much lower proportion of Indigenous expenditure (10.3 per cent) than non-Indigenous expenditure (19.5 per cent) was devoted to other government services, which mainly related to services estimated on a per capita basis.

    In 2011, the median age of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population (21.8 years) was lower than the median age of the non-Indigenous population (37.6 years) (ABS 2013b). A lower median age is likely to increase demand for school education

    In 2011, 21.3 per cent of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population lived in remote and very remote areas, compared with only 1.7 per cent of the non-Indigenous population (ABS 2013b) The cost of service delivery to regional, remote and very remote locations is likely to be greater, due to reduced economies of scale, high transportation costs and higher wages or allowances to attract staff to remote locations

    On average poorer outcomes against a range of health, education, income and other indicators are likely to increase the demand for government program and services by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians.

    http://www.pc.gov.au/research/ongoing/indigenous-expenditure-report/indigenous-expenditure-report-2014/indigenous-expenditure-report-2014.pdf

  147. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “I like facts too. These are from the Productivity Commission.”

    Good. What is the point?

  148. Kaye Lee

    It goes into much greater detail for each category. For example, on health…

    • healthy lives — $2.09 was spent per Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person in the population for every dollar spent per non-Indigenous person. The difference in expenditure per person was:
    – higher for public and community health services (a ratio of 5.24 to 1) — which includes expenditure on Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organisation services
    – lower for health care subsidies and support (a ratio of 1.15 to 1) — which includes expenditure on Medicare rebates, pharmaceutical benefits subsidies (such as the PBS) and private health insurance rebates

    Indigenous specific services accounted for $5.6 billion (18.6 per cent) of direct Indigenous expenditure in 2012-13

  149. abbienoiraude

    So many are being so so patient with this heartless unfeeling emotion-denying time waster on this thread.
    So patient, Kaye and Michael, Matters Not and helvityni!

    I just couldn’t follow his logic and his arguments as he decried, dismissed and denied the importance of feeling, caring, curiosity, protecting, sharing and all matters that belong to Emotional Intelligence.

    Was not going to comment till I read two ‘gotcha’ moments from this materialistic ‘engineer’…( sigh…* Why are Engineers like this?)

    Setting aside all his racist claptrap and stupid whingeing about ‘aborigines get more’n white folk’ rubbish;

    This for starters;
    “…wherein I work and pay taxes so you can sit around watching television all day.’

    He is no economist and certainly has a huge gap in his understanding about how it is to be on Social Security…and..how come he is spending so much time ‘sitting around’ himself?

    and this:

    He believes in an Imaginary Friend who was/is a ‘teacher’.

    Good grief!

    Here watch and play catchups on ‘paying taxes’ blah blah…

  150. Michael Taylor

    You asked Kaye what the point was. Perhaps it’s because only moments earlier you mentioned something about facts. You must have forgotten. Maybe your attention span is suffering.

  151. Michael Taylor

    I’m growing tired of him too, abbie.

  152. Kaye Lee

    Could I add that the majority of the money comes from the State governments’ allocation of the GST which EVERYONE pays, including those people on welfare. Oh…hang on…businesses don’t – they can claim it back.

    In 2012-13, the Australian Government provided $49.3 billion in general revenue assistance to the states and territories, nearly all ($48.1 billion) in Goods and Services Tax payments.

  153. Kaye Lee

    I tend to agree..

    He bemoans our lack of factual evidence, is offended by the idea that conservatives don’t like facts, then when presented by a whole heap of facts from a right-leaning government agency he says “what’s the point”. He also shows a blinkered approach to the long term economic cost of social disadvantage and disharmony.

    The point is we are realising that you are not actually here to discuss – just to dictate, dismiss, and derail with your scattergun approach.

  154. OrchidJar

    Not quite Kaye. I understand why you would say that, but it’s not quite true.
    The arguments are there.
    He’s making them.
    If you want to “beat” him you need to calibrate your arguments better and marshall more direct and formidable rebuttals that speak directly to his address/argument.
    Again, as specific as possible.
    I think that much is clear.

    To Captain, either you address specifically the questions posed, or you get to a specific point and hold fast; arguing directly
    to that.
    No deviations.
    Out of (conversational) courtesy.

    Just my 2 cents on this wonderful ongoing conversation.

    People are reading.

  155. Kaye Lee

    I don’t want to “beat” anyone and have made a real effort to answer his arguments but by the time I’ve written a response he’s changed the argument and he very rarely responds to the substance in others’ posts.

  156. Freethinker

    I just wonder if cases like this do not give One Nation more arguments and votes.

    Woman cannot give evidence in a niqab, Australian court rules
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/dec/01/woman-cannot-give-evidence-in-a-niqab-australian-court-rules

    Quote for the article in case that some cannot access the link:

    “An Australian judge has declined a request from a Muslim woman to wear a niqab while giving evidence in a damages claim against police where she alleges that officers assaulted her during a raid on her home.

    On Tuesday in the New South Wales district court, Judge Audrey Balla ruled on a request from Moutia Elzahed to wear her niqab while giving evidence to the court, in what may by one of the first rulings of its kind in Australia.

    Balla offered a number of alternatives to Elzahed – including that the court be closed to the public or that she give evidence in a remote room – but she declined to accept the alternatives, because there would still male legal representatives in the room.” End of quote

    My question is: why they come to a country in which they cannot or do not want to integrate to the way of living?

  157. Kaye Lee

    According to Islam “Muslims living in non-Muslim countries have to comply with laws and regulations of the country they have been entrusted though valid visas to enter”.

    http://en.islamtoday.net/node/604

    The niqab is not proscribed Islamic dress. All Islam says is you must dress modestly. There will always be people who cause problems where there should be none.

  158. Freethinker

    On that note Kaye, my question it is valid.

  159. Michael Taylor

    Freethinker, I think that might have more to do about a person being ‘recognisable’ in a court of law. Similarly, if I were to wear a hat or sunglasses in a court, the magistrate would more than likely ask me to remove them.

  160. Kaye Lee

    It would also make it difficult to hear them I would imagine? Freethinker, I think the court did what they could to accomodate the woman. I think she is being unreasonable deliberately.

  161. Orejano Chucaro

    I agree with both of the above comments, but my point was that the person in question refuse or does not want to comply or agree with the Australian laws or regulations.
    I would never do that, if I emigrate to a country I will be respect that laws and if they are going against my way of living or belief I will not go there.
    A matter of education I guess.

  162. Kaye Lee

    I am reminded of when I taught Brethren kids. They couldn’t watch videos or use computers and they were excused from lessons about evolution. English teachers gave them different texts that their parents approved of. We did everything we could to help them whilst being respectful of their beliefs. I then had the situation where one student wouldn’t enter the history room that my maths class was timetabled in because he objected to the war propaganda posters on the walls. We moved a desk outside the room for him and I told him the exercise we would be doing. When he realised it was a bit tricky when he couldn’t see what I was writing on the board he moved his desk into the doorway. I explained he couldn’t block the doorway for emergency exit reasons at which stage he complained I was discriminating against him.

    Sometimes you just have to say the rules override your beliefs.

  163. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “It goes into much greater detail for each category. For example, on health…”

    Sure it does. Let’s take a look at that.

    The difference in expenditure per person (left side for indigenous, right side non-indigenous) was:

    Early child development, education, and training: 2.21:1.
    Public and community health services: 5.24:1. (524% of the figure spent on non-indigenous people!)
    Health care subsidies and support: 1.15:1.
    Labour and employment programmes: 3.3:1.
    Housing: 5.51:1.
    Safe and supportive communities: 4:18:1.
    Public order and safety: 5.03:1.
    Community welfare and support: 4.16:1.

    Page 13-14: http://www.pc.gov.au/research/ongoing/indigenous-expenditure-report/indigenous-expenditure-report-2014/indigenous-expenditure-report-2014.pdf

  164. Captain Awesome

    @abbienoiraude:

    “So many are being so so patient with this heartless unfeeling emotion-denying time waster on this thread.
    So patient, Kaye and Michael, Matters Not and helvityni!
    I just couldn’t follow his logic and his arguments as he decried, dismissed and denied the importance of feeling, caring, curiosity, protecting, sharing and all matters that belong to Emotional Intelligence.
    Was not going to comment till I read two ‘gotcha’ moments from this materialistic ‘engineer’…( sigh…* Why are Engineers like this?)
    Setting aside all his racist claptrap and stupid whingeing about ‘aborigines get more’n white folk’ rubbish;”

    Numbers don’t lie.

    Your accusations of racism, denying emotions, being unfeeling and heartless, et cetera, are unfounded and pathetic. Actually everything you typed, which I quoted there, falls into the category of “personal attack”, which is another very common logical fallacy.

    “He is no economist and certainly has a huge gap in his understanding about how it is to be on Social Security…and..how come he is spending so much time ‘sitting around’ himself?”

    I’m rather lucky, in that my job permits me quite a lot of spare time on most days.

  165. Captain Awesome

    @Michael Taylor:

    “You asked Kaye what the point was. Perhaps it’s because only moments earlier you mentioned something about facts. You must have forgotten. Maybe your attention span is suffering.”

    Again with the personal attacks.

    Please note the difference: I quoted the report and provided a reason for it, whereas Kaye Lee quoted something and did not.

  166. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “He bemoans our lack of factual evidence, is offended by the idea that conservatives don’t like facts, then when presented by a whole heap of facts from a right-leaning government agency he says “what’s the point”. He also shows a blinkered approach to the long term economic cost of social disadvantage and disharmony.”

    I asked for your point because when you provided a quote, you did not provide a context, relevance, or reason of any sort.

  167. Captain Awesome

    @Freethinker:

    “Woman cannot give evidence in a niqab, Australian court rules”
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/dec/01/woman-cannot-give-evidence-in-a-niqab-australian-court-rules

    Regarding this first issue: In a supposedly free society, the government should never have any authority whatsoever to dictate what people can and can’t wear, any place, any time.

    “My question is: why they come to a country in which they cannot or do not want to integrate to the way of living?”

    Migration always happens for one of two reasons, and only these two reasons:

    1) People are seeking a better life. Whether legally or illegally, rich or poor, fleeing persecution or merely chasing a better economic situation, it’s always just seeking a better life. I can’t blame anyone for wanting a better life for themselves or their kids, even if I don’t approve of unlimited illegal immigration.

    2) People are infiltrating with the intention of causing harm. This has been going on for ever. Armies have been sending troops under cover ahead of the regular forces for thousands of years. Today, ISIS press releases have explicitly stated they have sent agents into European and Western nations among refugees.

  168. Freethinker

    Captain Awesome, when I emigrated due to political issues I did not selected a country where their laws, religion or values contradicted mine.
    There are many countries where people can go in which the way to live is compatible with their ways.
    I do not blame or are against those that have to emigrate to have a better life I just think that they have to respect and integrate to the way of living of the new country and if they cannot because go against their values then they can leave but not try to impose their ways.

  169. Captain Awesome

    @Freethinker:

    “I just think that they have to respect and integrate to the way of living of the new country and if they cannot because go against their values then they can leave but not try to impose their ways.”

    I agree 100%. On the other hand, it depends on scale. If you’re the larger force, you don’t integrate, you take over. If you’re one or two people, you integrate.

  170. Miriam English

    I think Terry2 might be right. Captain Tiresome could well be Neil of Sydney. He has the same approach where he tries to initially look like he is interested in reason, but then he either cherry-picks data to support his rather outrageous statements and switches topic in a slippery way when it’s getting difficult.

  171. jimhaz

    @Captain,

    [Regarding this first issue: In a supposedly free society, the government should never have any authority whatsoever to dictate what people can and can’t wear, any place, any time.]

    Would it be your desire for the public to govern what people could wear?

    I’m sort of just asking how libertarian you might be. Who would do the policing within this more free society?

    What would you define as progress?

    Personally I find the logic of many of your arguments to be quite valid. They are genuine arguments to me, and I like the way you take away the inclusion of issues with a different set of causes.

    “Impractical” or a bit extreme in parts, relative too my view, but still quite worthy of evaluation (though I’ve not read any links, other than a couple of your own pages).

    I say impractical, as if I try and read behind the lines, I have a feeling that you like most conservatives seem to think that the right self progressive attitude will somehow just manifest if less government assistance was given so people had to stand more on their own feet. While I agree with the theory, I don’t think the nature of the modern world allows for that. Won’t the policies that would cause that shift in attitude, just result in more havoc thus more irritation? Do you want Oz to be like say Singapore?

    Would you be happy if by some chance a V type revolution occurred?

    I suppose I’m just asking what you want to change.

    I want more free speech and am anti the degree of political correctness that exists – it allows too many powerplays. It is more as I’m concerned about generated hypersensitivity – we need to be able to cope with harder personal verbal conflict and off the cuff phrasing.

    The problem I find is that the right wing IS so much more dirty and simplistic – they prove it time and time again. The left are usually found to be more correct in the long term in temrs of what actually results in society. At a time of such abuses of income distribution and submission to lobbyists, I’m reluctant to give the right any more power to use propaganda and side with the left.

    (I’m not a great responder, it takes too much time)

  172. Michael Taylor

    Miriam, NoS would have been repeating the same old same old. Every comment would have said the same thing.

  173. Michael Taylor

    Freethinker, I like your gravatar. You look very distinguished.

  174. abbienoiraude

    Wow.
    Lil ol me got a personal reply from CA ( Cause Alternative).
    Wow.
    I feel honoured.
    Well..not ‘honoured’ …more horrified.

    I am nobody.
    I am nothing.
    And you deigned to direct a comment to me!

    Well then.

    Did I hit something?
    I do not know you. I do not aim a ‘personal attack’ except by the fact you yourself denied anything to do with ‘art’, or ‘feelings’ or ‘passion’ or the ‘heart’ or ‘caring’ or ‘compassion’ or all those female qualities, are worthless unless they can ‘get you a job.’
    Unless you have been a carer…you have NO idea what ‘work’ or a ‘job’ is.

    Ask me a question.
    Ask me something that shows you have interest, curiosity, compassion, caring…you know human qualities that really matter…

    I really want to understand you.

  175. Michael Taylor

    I wouldn’t hold my breath, Abbie. ?

  176. abbienoiraude

    Thanks Michael.
    He is such a needy person. I think he is missing something…much like my daughter’s abuser.

    Tried to understand him too…but gave up…just a Personality Disordered person. Sad and can’t be helped…but I will protect my grandson, no matter what…until death…but CA would NEVER understand that feeling at all.

    Cheers.

  177. Kaye Lee

    “when you provided a quote, you did not provide a context, relevance, or reason of any sort.”

    That just shows that, whilst you may read others comments, you do so only with your next comment in mind, not with any consideration or comprehension.

    The point of my post was to show that there is more to the spending figures than the gross figures and ratios you quote (with no examination).

    Health for example. There are no specific non-indigenous medical centres but there are Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organisation services. They inflate the comparison figure. Poor health obviously leads to higher per capita expenditure.

    Education – spending for the Aboriginal community is higher because they have more children (lower median age). It is done per capita rather than spending per child.

    A lot of the spending is the wages of people who provide the services. They also include transport and delivery costs which are obviously greater for remote communities regardless of their ethnicity. As a much higher proportion of the population of remote communities is Aboriginal, that cost is amplified compared to the non-indigenous population. But they are really behind when it comes to “other government services.”

    But the real killer comes when you see they include the cost for keeping them in jail. A higher proportion of the Aboriginal community is in jail and so their per capita outlay is much higher than for the non-indigenous community.

    safe and supportive communities — $4.18 was spent per Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person in the population for every dollar spent per non-Indigenous person. The difference in expenditure per person was larger for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians for both:

    – public order and safety (a ratio of 5.03 to 1) — which related to the overrepresentation of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population in the justice system. However, care should be exercised in this area because of the relatively poor quality of the data and limited information on per-incident costs
    – community welfare and support (a ratio of 4.16 to 1) — which mainly related to the greater per capita use of welfare services, such as support for people with a disability and support for families and children.

    Low incomes and high unemployment are of course going to lead to higher per capita spending comparatively.

    It is you who are quoting things with no context, not me.

    I will also reiterate the point that the vast majority of Indigenous funding comes from the GST that we all pay, NOT from income or company tax, so please leave off with the “I work and pay taxes so you can sit around watching television all day” crap. There are a shit load of people who sit around all day collecting increased dividends on their shares based on the productivity gains of workers whose wages are going backwards.

  178. Captain Awesome

    @Miriam English:

    “I think Terry2 might be right. Captain Tiresome could well be Neil of Sydney. He has the same approach where he tries to initially look like he is interested in reason, but then he either cherry-picks data to support his rather outrageous statements and switches topic in a slippery way when it’s getting difficult.”

    I merely point out the wrong things people believe and say, and generally provide evidence to explain why they are wrong. Unfortunately most people have beliefs which are not based on objective reality, but only on a combination of their perceptions and imagination.

  179. Captain Awesome

    @jimhaz:

    “Would it be your desire for the public to govern what people could wear?”

    It should be up to each and every individual.

    “Who would do the policing within this more free society?”

    Fashion is not something which requires policing. Except perhaps in the case of hipsters, who really should be tossed in prison for crimes against evolution.

    “I say impractical, as if I try and read behind the lines, I have a feeling that you like most conservatives seem to think that the right self progressive attitude will somehow just manifest if less government assistance was given so people had to stand more on their own feet. While I agree with the theory, I don’t think the nature of the modern world allows for that.”

    I’ve seen how it works in China and other nations first hand. Less regulation of business has its down sides, but also great benefits. People don’t sit around waiting for hand outs so they can play World Of Warcraft all day. They use whatever they can get their hands on to make some money. If they’ve got a bicycle, they start work as a courier. If they don’t have a bicycle, they carry things by hand, save up, and buy a bicycle. In a welfare state, on the other hand, people just get lazy, and they wallow in the rut of welfare life.

    Provided there are rules in place for the protection and safety of citizens and the natural environment, the rest of it should be an open playing field, with no government interference. Let people stand on their own two feet. Let families support their kin who can’t work, and their elderly, as humanity has done for countless millennia. Got no family? Get a job, support yourself.

    Before anyone starts up with the all too easy response “That’s easy to say from a position of PRIVILEGE!”, or some such, I would point out that I came from extreme poverty, such that for a time my family had no running water or electricity, and some nights we literally could not buy or otherwise acquire food. However, I worked hard, paid my own way through university, and now own a three bedroom home in a capital city, have a relatively decent car, and a fairly cushy job. Nobody gave it to me. I achieved it myself.

    Regarding what the modern world allows, it’s a matter of evolution, again. If a society is too easy, and more and more people get on welfare, then more and more of the population become drains on society and not creators or producers. This was one of the contributing factors in the decline of Rome. We’re already on the downward slope as a civilisation, losing our production capability, and basing claims of economic growth purely on inflation. The common concept of the modern world is wrong and dangerous, and in the end quite harmful.

    “Would you be happy if by some chance a V type revolution occurred?”

    I’d be happy if humanity could learn to see long term and act accordingly. Long term survival requires humanity spreading to other star systems very distant from this one, preserving or improving upon what works best for us, and shaping all our political and developmental programmes around that cause. Anything other than that is merely blowing smoke up our own arses, sitting around waiting for extinction.

    “I want more free speech and am anti the degree of political correctness that exists – it allows too many powerplays. It is more as I’m concerned about generated hypersensitivity – we need to be able to cope with harder personal verbal conflict and off the cuff phrasing.”

    Indeed. Political correctness and all this “I’m offended by that!” nonsense is nothing more than another version of fascism rising through the delicate snowflake movement.

    “The problem I find is that the right wing IS so much more dirty and simplistic – they prove it time and time again.”

    I disagree. It’s consistently the liberals/lefties who try to ban ideas and words because they want to protect everyone’s feewings. This is incredibly dangerous.

    People like Dick Cheney and his Mini-me George Brandis tend to be the folks trying to screw us all over through regulations and other political machinations, but personally I don’t see anything about such people which could be called conservative. They are corrosive parasites.

  180. Captain Awesome

    @abbienoiraude:

    “I do not know you. I do not aim a ‘personal attack’”

    All that stuff about “decried, dismissed and denied the importance of feeling, caring, curiosity, protecting, sharing and all matters that belong to Emotional Intelligence” is aimed at character, not at the content of posts or anything else. That is inherently a personal attack.

    “except by the fact you yourself denied anything to do with ‘art’, or ‘feelings’ or ‘passion’ or the ‘heart’ or ‘caring’ or ‘compassion’”

    No I didn’t.

    “or all those female qualities”

    They’re not female qualities.

    “Unless you have been a carer…you have NO idea what ‘work’ or a ‘job’ is.”

    So… caring is a profession, requiring payment? I do it for free.

    “I really want to understand you.”

    That is an unlikely eventuality.

    He is such a needy person. I think he is missing something…much like my daughter’s abuser.

    “Tried to understand him too…but gave up…just a Personality Disordered person.”

    Again, that is an ad hominem, an attack at personality.

    “but CA would NEVER understand that feeling at all.”

    Ludicrous.

  181. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “That just shows that, whilst you may read others comments, you do so only with your next comment in mind, not with any consideration or comprehension.”

    You literally provided no reason or point in the post under consideration. Only a quote of figures without a “this means X”.

    “There are no specific non-indigenous medical centres but there are Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organisation services.”

    Indeed. An inherently racist government policy. A service is provided for one racial group but not another, and it is paid for by all citizens.

    “Education – spending for the Aboriginal community is higher because they have more children (lower median age).”

    It’s also because they have so many problems generated by themselves. For example, it is estimated that less than 30% of child sexual abuse among indigenous communities is actually reported, but even so, that reported is double the rate of non-indigenous people. Twice as many indigenous children are infected with STIs. Twice as many indigenous children suffer from neglect by their families. They keep having kids, keep sexually abusing them or neglecting them, and it costs money.

    https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/child-protection-and-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-children

    “But the real killer comes when you see they include the cost for keeping them in jail. A higher proportion of the Aboriginal community is in jail and so their per capita outlay is much higher than for the non-indigenous community.”

    That’s because they keep committing crimes. Nobody else is at fault for that. It’s not society’s fault. It’s the criminal’s fault.

    “Low incomes and high unemployment are of course going to lead to higher per capita spending comparatively.”

    Solution: Stay in school, get a job, stop committing crimes. Be a productive member of society. Stop costing the rest of us so much money.

    “I will also reiterate the point that the vast majority of Indigenous funding comes from the GST that we all pay, NOT from income or company tax, so please leave off with the “I work and pay taxes so you can sit around watching television all day” crap. There are a shit load of people who sit around all day collecting increased dividends on their shares based on the productivity gains of workers whose wages are going backwards.”

    Where do you think GST comes from? It comes from the money that I earn. It comes from me.

  182. Captain Awesome

    Regarding people committing crimes, being lazy, raping children, and so on, ONLY the perpetrator is to blame. They have free will and choices, the same as everyone else.

    The idea that “They are all VICTIMS! They have no free will! They are incapable of doing anything else!” is utterly racist, insulting, and belittling.

    They have free will. They have the option of working to improve their lives. They have the option of caring for their children.

  183. Michael Taylor

    Captain A, I find a large proportion of your comments to be racist and insulting. Racism, I have learned, is often the result of ignorance.

  184. Kaye Lee

    I had hoped that you were capable of some sort of critical analysis CA. You have made it patently clear that is not the case and I have no need to read reams and reams of the stereotypical regurgitated learned-at-daddy’s-knee party line. I will not waste any further time reading what you write – I have heard Rowan Deane repeat it all before. Not an original thought in it.

    You bemoan the $5.6 billion spent on Aboriginal programs? Let’s compare how much tax the government foregoes on tax concessions for the wealthy and what percentage of that goes to Indigenous people.

  185. Captain Awesome

    @Kaye Lee:

    “I had hoped that you were capable of some sort of critical analysis CA. You have made it patently clear that is not the case and I have no need to read reams and reams of the stereotypical regurgitated learned-at-daddy’s-knee party line. I will not waste any further time reading what you write – I have heard Rowan Deane repeat it all before. Not an original thought in it.”

    No. Analysis was conducted. What you want is for me to agree with you. I don’t. Specifically because I believe in equality and free will.

  186. Michael Taylor

    I don’t think you’re in any position to question my knowledge and understanding of Aboriginal Australia.

  187. randalstella

    You like equality Captain A?
    Where would you start?
    Who with, and by which measures?

  188. Kaye Lee

    Nor my knowledge of where the money comes from and where it goes and how those figures are determined. Your “analysis” was a superficial copy and paste with no mention of the context or analysis of the figures..

  189. Michael Taylor

    Kaye, have you had enough of this jerk?

  190. Michael Taylor

    What is wrong with me? I am intolerant of fools.

  191. Michael Taylor

    Follow a link to your site! Nope.

  192. Miriam English

    CA… screw people over, beginning with genocide, continuing it with slavery and stealing their children and constant denigration and racist attacks, preventing them from gaining a foothold in society, treating them differently before the law so that a white is let off for an offence that a black is imprisoned for, picking up black people for no clear reason and if their response not “Yes Master” slap them in an overnight cell. If they respond angrily they go to prison. And then blame them for it, saying they are in prison more because they commit more crimes and that they are poor because they don’t want to work.

    Do you have any awareness at all of what incredible bullshit you spout?

    You, sir, are a racist.

  193. Freethinker

    Captain Awesome IMO, I guess that when you find that your comments are offensive and not compatible with the writers and readers in this blog the best thing will be move on and find a place where your views will be accepted.
    It is nothing to do with freedom of speech it is that what will be your point to stay, you are not going to convince us or expect that we are going to come down to a lower level in this issue.

  194. jimhaz

    [You, sir, are a racist]

    I would doubt that. I’d say he is just not empathetic, much like me. He acknowledges the weakness that excessive continuous support creates.

  195. Captain Awesome

    @Miriam English:

    “CA… screw people over, beginning with genocide”

    There was no genocide. White settlements in Australia during the early period were confined to a few small locations (the six colonies). The vast majority of aborigines were not even close to those locations. While there were conflicts and even some massacres around those colonies, it was quite limited and small scale. Genocide is literally wiping out an entire genus, or legally the act or attempted act of wiping out an entire race, tribe, religion, et cetera; that didn’t happen.

    “continuing it with slavery”

    Most people don’t bother to research this matter. The reality was, most of the work in developing those early colonies was conducted by white slaves. 95% of convicts sent here from the UK were employed as slave labour. Only about 5% were actually in prison. While there was slavery, it was not a racial issue. Same in the USA, where the English sent many white slaves, particularly unwanted Irish and Scottish people.

    “and stealing their children”

    There are truths and lie about that. While there were definitely racist government policies I place, there were also racist policies in place among aborigines. Frequently they would leave half white, half aborigine infants to die in the wilderness, as they were unwanted. Additionally, child abuse (including sexual abuse and neglect) were always common among aborigine communities, and the government was forced to intervene then as it has been now. They could not in good conscience leave children to be sexually abused by their parents and extended families.

    “constant denigration and racist attacks”

    Not really. Most people don’t go around insulting others, as some of you have been on this page. Most of the time, most people get along just fine, and don’t go around hurling racial abuse and other insults.

    “preventing them from gaining a foothold in society, treating them differently before the law”

    Certainly that was the case. Actually it still is, in that, as demonstrated, the government provides more funding for services for aborigines than it does for others.

    “If they respond angrily they go to prison. And then blame them for it, saying they are in prison more because they commit more crimes”

    That’s the sad truth of the matter. People go to prison because they commit crimes.

    “and that they are poor because they don’t want to work”

    They have the opportunity to work. And more government support to help them in that regard than anyone else. If they don’t, that’s on them.

    “Do you have any awareness at all of what incredible bullshit you spout?”

    Now you are just controlled by your anger, allowing your beliefs to be shaped by your feelings rather than facts.

    “You, sir, are a racist.”

    Consider these two beliefs:

    1) “Aborigines are 100% controlled by things that happened to their ancestors, therefore do not have free will, and are not responsible for their own actions.”

    2) “Everyone has free will. Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions.”

    Which one of those beliefs is actually racist?

  196. Michael Taylor

    Captain Awesome IMO, I guess that when you find that your comments are offensive and not compatible with the writers and readers in this blog the best thing will be move on and find a place where your views will be accepted.
    It is nothing to do with freedom of speech it is that what will be your point to stay, you are not going to convince us or expect that we are going to come down to a lower level in this issue.

    Well said, Freethinker. You’ve nailed it. It is pointless engaging with Captain A. He is not here to engage.

  197. Miriam English

    CA, so that’s a no, then. You don’t realise.

    What an amazing list of rationalisations.

    Denial of genocide. Wow. “While there were a few massacres…” A few???
    Hunting them for “sport” was common. Close to a million people were wiped out. Tasmania was systematically cleared of original populations, with only very small numbers escaping.

    The way you excused stealing children was particularly hard to stomach. I guess you don’t realise there was great panic whenever the police visited settlements. They hid their children so the police wouldn’t take them. Have you talked with any of the women who had their children stolen? The grief and torment you excuse wreaking.

    Your denial of overt racism was gob-smacking. I didn’t even mention the more subtle effects as well, where white people are hired instead of blacks, or where people in poverty tend to commit more petty crimes regardless of skin color. Raise the standard of living and those petty crimes disappear. But you’d prefer to blame the color of their skin. You see? That’s called racism.

  198. Michael Taylor

    Miriam, there is so much in our history that Captain A is not aware of. I’d say that I know more about Aboriginal Australia than most people and I’m always willing to share what I know, but in CA I detect a person who is not willing to learn.

  199. jimhaz

    The stolen generation still had an underlying intention of making their lives better.

    Personally I am yet to be convinced that it did not succeed, though IF it did it did so only by a very slim margin. Those who find it 100% appalling concentrate entirely on the negative aspects, and I agree there are many. Many of those involved who speak of the horrors can do so as a result of their westernisation, many of those who were not stolen may have died in the meantime from alcohol abuse or domestic violence.

    Unfortunately it is another hypothetical statistical situation – including flow on effects to other aboriginals, were there more suicides or did alcohol abuse increase as a result, than were saved by this attempt at forcing them learn how to live within the prevailing society?
    I’ve no doubt that there would have been better policies that could have been put in place and they were far too indiscriminate – but hell, attitudinally it was a far tougher world in all societies. Plenty of white women also had their babies taken away by the same dominant attitudes.

    I actually find it reasonably similar to the ALP’s initial relaxation of Howards refugee policies – trying to be kinder backfired in a big way.

  200. Michael Taylor

    Why is it that people identify alcohol abuse with Aborigines more than they do the wider community? Would people be aware that alcohol consumption is greater among non-Indigenous Australians (75%) than it is among Indigenous Australians (66%)?

  201. Carol Taylor

    The underlying intention of the The Stolen Generations was the eventual eradication of “Aboriginal blood” with the marker being the paleness or darkness of the child’s skin, so much so that 2 siblings might be taken but their darker brother or sister left behind. It was assumed that skin colour was the prime indication of how much “white blood” and therefore an indication of how “trainable” the child might be. Paler skinned children, it was promoted could make excellent house servants and stable hands, and might even (with correct training) become nursery maids and trusted with the care of children.

    These suitably house-trained Aborigines, it was envisaged, might eventually mate with lower classes such as the Irish, thereby further diluting the black blood until in several generations it would be barely discernible. All other Aborigines would eventually die out. And didn’t the powers that be do their best to achieve this, depriving communities of basic health and sanitation services..a waste of money which would just prolong the inevitable.

  202. Freethinker

    Michael TaylorDecember 2, 2016 at 4:29 pm
    Why is it that people identify alcohol abuse with Aborigines more than they do the wider community? Would people be aware that alcohol consumption is greater among non-Indigenous Australians (75%) than it is among Indigenous Australians (66%)?

    Because it is embedded in the Ango Saxon culture, even to the point when English scientists were busy measuring various parts of the human anatomy, hoping to establish a justification for their new racial-scientific theories about the origin and hierarchy of races. Collecting reminds of natives and keeping until today in museums and universities.
    The Anglosaxonism towards other races is well present in USA and in all the ex British colonies.
    There are other European with the same characteristics and the majority of them are from countries were colonization and taking over other countries was quite acceptable.
    The damage that the Spanish, English and Portuguese than in the “New World” with the pretext on getting more wealth for their royals is appalling and a shame to those countries and the history of their royal families.

  203. Kaye Lee

    imhaz,

    Do you think those children were ever actually accepted by the white community they were transplanted into? What of the many who were put into orphanages were they were abused? Would they not have been better with their extended family in the country where they had a connection?

  204. Michael Taylor

    Carol is right. The children weren’t taken from their families to ‘improve’ their lives. They were taken in an effort to try and breed out Aboriginality. ‘Full-blood’ Aborigines weren’t taken; they were segregated from the wider community until they died out.

  205. Kaye Lee

    In 1995, the Australian government launched an inquiry into the policy of forced child removal. The report was delivered to Parliament on the 26th May 1997. It estimated that between 10 per cent and 33 per cent of all Indigenous children were separated from their families between 1910-1970. The report acknowledged the social values and standards of the time, but concluded that the policies of child removal breached fundamental human rights.

    The Keating government commissioned the inquiry into the Stolen Generations, but the Howard government received the report. Howard’s government was skeptical of the report’s findings, and largely ignored its recommendations.

  206. Tony

    Well well what a mob of wanabees we have here, scared of the truth ..stick with it Pauline these are just a small few who hide behind a racist card …
    I’ve just bought a lot of gollywogs to hand out with white balloons does this make me racist and why. Your Just living in the past rather than looking to the future .
    How many of you actually help these so call down and outs .
    Dr Isaac who went to Clontarf boys town WAS HE ABUSED ,not that I saw.
    Was he stolen, NO he was put into the orphanage for his safety and to have a good home as were many aboriginal lads who all mixing with poms, wogs, dagoes, Irish Welsh, Maltese, Scottish lads, WAS he racist for being there with his friends.
    We didn’t see his card or of any other aboriginal or part of … holding up a racist cards its people like you making the true blue aboriginal a disgrace to the community and themselves.
    They don’t need this shit. STOP BRINGING UP THE PAST they need to look to the FUTURE. with your HELP .

  207. Terry2

    It is currently estimated that there are over 15000 aboriginal children in foster care or in state institutions :

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2015/s4179209.htm

    Approximately 20,000 to 25,000″ children were removed between 1910 and 1970, based on the Australian Bureau of Statistics report of 1994.

    It seems that collectively “we” are not doing much better than “our” forefathers.

  208. Kaye Lee

    Tony,

    I agree that we need to help our Aboriginal people but to address a problem you first have to understand what is causing it and work on prevention rather than punitively reacting to symptoms..

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