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An LNP Refugee Backflip, is it even possible?

In light of the so-called “Nauru files” questions are naturally being asked. However the questions being asked by decent minded people of conscious are decidedly different from the ones being asked by the government and our immigration minister Peter Dutton.

While those of us who would prefer our nation didn’t behave like a sub-branch of the Third Reich are asking questions like, “why are we spending billions of tax payer dollars torturing and imprisoning people who have committed no crime?”

And “How can we ignore blatant human rights abuses on our watch?” the government is asking questions like “Who told, who leaked the reports?”

Under the government’s carefully managed messaging the innocent victims of our concentration camps have, until now, been successfully branded as criminals in the broader public’s eye. But the cat is well and truly out of the bag. Everybody knows that we have not only been locking up innocent people, we have been systematically subjecting them to all manner of abuse, rape and torture on our watch.

So where to now for the government? At this point you would have thought someone in the LNP party room might have suggested they put down the shovel and step away from the hole, but no. They are sticking to their guns. In his Orwellian attempts to manage the message Dutton has chimed in with a range of assertions so patently absurd they would be laughable if they weren’t so agonisingly tragic.

From his accusing refugee advocates of encouraging suicide attempts, (an allegation that has subsequently been proven to be false), to claiming that allegations of sexual assaults in the camps are simply a misguided attempt to penetrate our boarders, Dutton is a man so deep in denial that he seems unable to contemplate the notion that any of the 2000 plus incidents listed in the Nauru files might actually be the awful truth. He has become little more than the unfortunate mouthpiece of a government so driven by distorted ideology and political opportunism that it has fully embraced the Seinfeildian logic of “it’s not a lie if you believe it”.

-nauru-children-904-super-169

But if we are to figure out how to move forward we must first look back and understand where we have been and how we got here.

Howard started it all with the children overboard scandal. A false claim made to demonise innocent people and gain political advantage. Down in the polls and facing electoral defeat, 9/11 landed on Howard’s doorstep like a political godsend. Suddenly he had a new Muslim bogey man to with which to terrify the public. Throw a compliant media and boatload of middle eastern refugees into the mix and he sailed back into office on the back of his successful scare campaign. So successful was his little man hate campaign that from that day forward everything changed. Where we once recognised refugees as hard working, often highly educated and entrepreneurial additions to our society, we were now encouraged to view them as self serving illegal interlopers bent on milking our benefits system and destroying our way of life. The torture and vilification of refugees was etched in stone into the LNP party platform, and the Murdoch rags gleefully cheered them on from the sideline.

Some of you will be too young to remember, but before Howard cynically exploited the Tampa crisis and invented the lie that was children overboard, refugees attempting to come here where greeted with a broad smile and hand up.

So here we are several years later, one of the richest countries on the planet, with the biggest houses and the largest per capita carbon footprint in the world, thumbing our nose at international law. With absolutely no sense of irony we seem able to torture and persecute innocent people for the outrageous act of fleeing torture and persecution. And for what? Why are we doing it? It costs us far more to persecute these people than it would to resettle them.

If you analyse it, the reason is clear. It is not about the money. It’s not about these people being a threat to the community. (As if 400 refugees are going to bring down the nation? It’s utter garbage, we have taken in thousands of refugees in over the decades and they have been overwhelmingly good for the nation).

What it is really about is political opportunism and advantage. Just like the Nazi’s did in the 30’s, the LNP get a lot of political capital out of fear of the other. Fear has proven such an effective wedge against labor and the greens, or any other party that can be packaged up by Murdoch and sold to the public as “soft of boarder protection” that the LNP are totally unwilling to give it up.

But it is not just a matter of the political advantage the LNP garner from prosecuting the case for fear, they have made the lie so big, and told it to us so often they simply can’t back away from it, even as it is crumbling around them. Even though the truth has well and truly escaped their control they are clearly willing to push back hard.  I’m sure they think that if they mount a good enough fight, with Murdoch on their side, they still might be able to save their precious rhetoric from being shown up for the lie that it is. After all if they back down now, not only will they lose one of their most valuable political cards, they are going to lose one hell of a lot of face.

In the wake of the Nauru files one thing has become abundantly clear. As human beings the LNP clearly lack the moral backbone and courage required to say, “we got it wrong”. Given the choice between owning their error and rethinking their policy or continuing on with the human rights abuses, clearly they prefer to keep torturing people.

So what now for us as a nation? More of the same I suspect.

70 comments

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  1. Möbius Ecko

    Standby for NoS…. “Labor”.

  2. DisablednDesperate

    I was thinking the same thing. They will just dig in their heels harder.
    They will be looking for a good terrorist scare about now I think.

  3. Matters Not

    attempt to penetrate our boarders

    There’s evidence of that. But was that your intent?

    And yes:

    we are soft on boarder protection

    We do have a duty of care.

  4. Fedup

    Yes we do have a duty of care. To our people first and foremost. Unfortunately it’s one of those cases where the government is dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t. We have to be much tougher on boarder protection and stop going on personal feelings. None of us like to see these thing happen to people but I doubt if they even give us a second thought. It’s a sad situation.

  5. The AIM Network

    Standby for NoS…. “Labor”.

    Indeed he will be here filled with anger that Labor locked up ‘x’ number of children – and so he should be angry, we all are and we’ve often expressed it – but there will be nought said about the Liberal’s treatment of refugees.

    It’s a given. His lips will be sealed.

  6. Kaye Lee

    The only way to stop politicians’ cynical use of refugees for political purposes is through the courts. PNG have already declared Manus illegal. The International courts should get active too. It seems our high court here has been compromised. George Brandis appointed four judges to the Family Court, Federal Court and Federal Circuit Court in New South Wales, Victoria and the Australian Capital Territory just days before the election was called. He no doubt chooses people sympathetic to his cause like Dyson Heydon.

  7. diannaart

    @Kaye Lee

    I have been wondering what PNG’s claims amounted to? Would love to see it battled out in the courts. The LNP will not back down and Labor will only talk around the problem.

    How does a third world nation like PNG, a little Island like Nauru go about standing up to the likes of Australia? The likes of us?

  8. pierre wilkinson

    boarders rent rooms, borders are where a sovereign nation says this is ours,
    given that, how stupid are we to spend billions keeping people in detention when it would be cheaper and fairer to allow them entry once their credentials have been vetted? $55 million alone on Cambodian detention – for one person

  9. Möbius Ecko

    Yes pierre wilkinson, Feedup goes on about the cost of welfare yet it’s costs $1.2 billion per year to keep refugees on Nauru and Manus. That’s $400,000 per refugee to keep them in spartan conditions, withhold medicines and treatment, and to treat them abominably.

    It cost half that to detain them in Australia whilst treating them more humanely and in much better conditions and it cost 5% of that to have them living in the community.

    In every way possible it’s stupid policy without even getting into the humanity and morality of it.

  10. helvityni

    Labor has behaved badly when it comes to asylum seekers, but there’s something that I do not understand: why didn’t the Liberals do their usual backflip and undo all Labor’s policies, and do things BETTER. No,when it came to asylum seekers, they made things WORSE.

  11. Kaye Lee

    Australia has no qualms about giving millions of dollars to corrupt leaders who gleefully accept the cash without any responsibility – Cambodia, PNG, Nauru. We also pay people smugglers to take people back. What a rort for them – double the money for a return trip.

    We simply cannot keep these people, who have done nothing wrong other than choose us to ask for help, locked up forever in places where we know they are being harmed. Sooner or later we will face a huge compensation bill for this and it won’t be coming out of Dutton’s pocket.

  12. helvityni

    If the majority of Australians want changes for the better, when it comes to asylum seekers, then why are the Greens not more popular.
    Is the majority of Oz population anti asylum seekers…?

  13. Annie B

    Kaye –

    ” won’t be coming out of Duttons’ pocket”. Well, it damnwell should – every cent of it. He has been given carte blanche to speak as HE thinks fit, and is a loose cannon, hopefully one that aims true, and brings down the LNP and the PM – who does not in any way take him to task for his inane lies, bloated ego, dictatorial stance, and cruel inuendo.

    While I personally like Gillian Triggs and how she runs the Commission, I cannot for the life of me understand why something is not done about this tragic situation, by the AHRC itself, and why she is being ( at the moment ) so very silent on the matter. [ stand to be corrected on that ].

    Went looking for what powers the AHRC has and found the link shown at the bottom of this post. It covers most of the situations as applies to Australian residents, b u t … as Manus, Nauru and Christmas Island ( which I believe is still functional ) are ALL under the auspices of Australian Government control – then within their own descriptions, they are obliged to listen to the recommendations of the AHRC. … And why this has not been brought to the attention of the International Human Rights Commission, is beyond me.

    Part of the IHRC covenent is : “Human Rights are the basic rights and freedoms to which all human beings are entitled, like civil and political rights, the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and speech/expression, equality before the law, social, cultural and economic rights, the right to food, the right to work, and the right to education. In short, human rights are freedoms established by custom or international agreement that protect the interests of humans and the conduct of governments in every nation.” ( conduct of governments in every nation )

    AND

    “Human rights laws have been defined by international conventions, by treaties, and by organizations, particularly the United Nations. These laws prohibit practices such as torture, slavery, summary execution without trial, and arbitrary detention or exile. Many human rights are secured by agreements between the governments and those they govern …. etc. “ http://www.hg.org/human-rights.html

    There are many ‘forward’ links to explore, if anyone wishes on the below link. …. I will try and get back to doing a more thorough search of that website, when I can.

    https://www.humanrights.gov.au/about/functions-australian-human-rights-commission
    ………..

  14. Dr Bones Snr

    Nice words on human rights, so sad to realise, as I read them, that they have no place in the real world.

  15. jim

    Here from the Guardian ,Shayne Neumann, Labor’s spokesman on immigration, told ABC’s Lateline on Wednesday night that Labor’s migration amendment (mandatory reporting) bill, put before the last parliament last October, would be reintroduced.

    The bill would require (every person) working in any Australian-funded facility, including offshore detention camps, to report any form of child abuse to the Australian Border Force commissioner, who must, in turn, report it to the relevant police authority and child protection agency. Neumann said Labor would also propose the creation of an independent children’s advocate.

    “We need action now,” he said. “An independent children’s advocate would act on each case individual case, dealing with each case as it does in any court.”Neumann said immediate action to protect children was needed rather than a public inquiry. “We don’t need a royal commission to tell us that there are real problems here.”

    He said the abuses on Nauru were, ultimately, Australia’s responsibility. “It’s all very well for the government to say, ‘Look, it’s Nauru’s problem’ – we are paying taxpayers’ money, we have indirect responsibility, we cannot abdicate a responsibility for vulnerable people, women and children and men in these circumstances.

    “We must get back in the game … it seems inaction and inertia is the LNP government’s approach in this regard and we should not find this acceptable and the Australian public doesn’t find it acceptable.”

    And remember when labor was in government the Liberals were saying “the more boats that arrive the better,and “we the LNP have to stop Labor stopping the boats”.All the reports are a conspiracy to make you look bad. Oh right! I see it so clearly now, there is no abuse, there is no trauma, there is no reason a bunch of Australians who served as teachers on Nauru are risking gaol to speak out, its all a big beat up to make you look bad.

  16. Kaye Lee

    Gillian Triggs hasn’t been silent. Two days ago….

    “Australia’s policy of deterrence is premised on making people in offshore locations suffer. This policy is inhumane and irresponsible, and it means refugees and asylum seekers remain vulnerable to further abuse and mistreatment. Men, women and children need to be removed from Nauru immediately.

    “We rely very heavily on the media to report these facts and ensure the public is accurately informed, and I think that’s the case here.

    “We really need the public’s attention to ensure that our politicians change the policy. This is unsustainable, and of course extremely expensive to the Australian taxpayer.”

    If media had access to the immigration centres, the Australian public could be moved in the same way they were over the Don Dale juvenile detention abuses broadcast last month.

    “Our democratic system depends on transparency and access by our journalists and also by other community groups who can speak up and take photographs. That is what really moves the public, when they actually see, preferably on video, how these children are being treated.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/10/gillian-triggs-says-onus-on-australian-public-to-change-detention-policy-after-nauru-files-leak

    We need the public to demand better solutions. We need regional leaders to consult with their communities to see if they would be happy with the influx of some new people to boost their local economy. We are forever hearing about the poor farmers who have to employ back packers. Surely there are regional areas who would be happy to have some more kids to keep their schools open and more residents to keep their shops and banks open. There are a lot of places with empty houses and shut up shops. Why not give these people a chance?

    Open processing centres in Indonesia and Malaysia where applications are processed in a timely manner. Up the intake to 25,000 and fly them here for free. Those who come by other means can either be flown back to their point of origin or detained onshore whilst their case is reviewed. If there is a real question about security, detain them on Christmas Island. The best way to regulate the flow and to put the smugglers out of business is to give people a legitimate way of getting here. People overstaying their visas is a far greater issue than the few asylum seekers who make it this far.

  17. Annie B

    jim ….

    That is certainly a good move in the right direction, but a) will the employed companies by this government circumvent the issues and not report – and b) if they do report, will this rabid government take any notice. I can see Dutton bunging it all in the too hard basket, located on the floor – or worse – shredding them. …. I believe he is also responsible for the Australian Border Force ?

    This mob can’t be trusted – they have flouted the law left, right and centre to date – why would they, especially Dutton change ?.

    However, it IS good to see the ALP taking a stand on this issue in this way. And barring Hanson, I think it would make it through the current Senate. Behoves the ALP to keep track of absolutely everything possible, if this becomes law … in order to keep the bastards honest ( ending on a positive note ).

  18. Annie B

    Kaye ….

    Thanks for that … I did think I’d heard something but was not at all sure – impossible to keep up with a lot of the news at times, which comes in from all directions ( especially internet ).

    Also not sure that this is the first time for a while, she has said anything – however, now she has come out with these spot on statements, the point is moot that she has been quiet in recent times.

    I will read the link –

    ……..

  19. Neilof Sydney

    Gillian Triggs hasn’t been silent.

    Maybe not now. But she was silent when Rudd/Gillard were in power. And that is the Coalition condemnation of Triggs. Where was she when Labor was doing this?

    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/31/young-looking-refugees-sent-offshore

    Young-looking children were chosen to be transferred to the harsh Manus Island refugee detention centre to discourage other refugees from coming to Australia, an inquiry has heard………..Gregory Lake, the former director of offshore processing and transfers at the Department of Immigration and Border Protection, told the inquiry he was directed by a ministerial staff member to choose the youngest-looking children from among those eligible for the first transfer of detained people from Australia to Manus Island in 2012, when Labor was in government.

  20. Kaye Lee

    “she was silent when Rudd/Gillard were in power”

    To start with, she was only appointed in July 2012.

    “Triggs mounted a strong defence of the commission’s impartiality, saying it had tabled numerous reports critical of the impact of mandatory immigration detention to the former Labor government and had intervened in the High Court to oppose its so-called “Malaysian solution”.

    “I am very disappointed that the substance of the report is being ignored for an inaccurate allegation of bias,” she said.

    The inquiry had been planned to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the commission’s first investigation of children in detention and was called “when the government was not releasing children and their period of detention had reached unacceptable levels”, she said.

    Reports raising concerns about the impact of detention on children had been tabled in 2012 and 2013 during the period of Labor rule, she said.

    “To suggest that, all of a sudden, the commission concentrated on the issue because there was a new government is a serious misrepresentation of the facts.”

  21. Kaye Lee

    “she was silent when Rudd/Gillard were in power” except for these reports….

    Those who’ve come across the seas: Detention of unauthorised arrivals
    HREOC’s report, tabled in federal Parliament on 12 May 1998, deals with the policy of mandatory detention of most unauthorised arrivals and the conditions of detention for those detained. The report had its origins in the many complaints received by…
    2008

    An age of uncertainty – Inquiry into the treatment of individuals suspected of people smuggling offences who say that they are children
    This report makes disturbing reading. It documents numerous breaches by Australia of both the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. As a nation that is understandably anxious that the…
    2012

    Community arrangements for asylum seekers, refugees and stateless persons (2012)
    Community arrangements for asylum seekers, refugees and stateless personsObservations from visits conducted by the Australian Human Rights Commission from December 2011 to May 2012July 2012
    2012

    DIAC Response to the Australian Human Rights Commission report on the use of community arrangements for asylum seekers, refugees and stateless persons who have arrived to Australia by boat
    The Department of Immigration and Citizenship welcomes the opportunity to respond to the Australian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) report on the use of community arrangements for asylum seekers, refugees and stateless persons who have arrived to…
    2012

    Human rights issues raised by the transfer of asylum seekers to third countries
    Human rights issues raised by the transfer of asylum seekers to third countries’ sets out the Australian Human Rights Commission’s position in relation to steps taken recently by the Australian Government to transfer asylum seekers who arrive in…
    2012

    Immigration detention on Christmas Island – Observations from visit to Immigration detention facilities on Christmas Island
    Immigration detention on Christmas Island Observations from visit to Immigration detention facilities on Christmas Island
    2012

    Human Rights standards for immigration detention
    This publication, Human rights standards for immigration detention, sets out benchmarks for the humane treatment of people held in immigration detention
    2013

    Background paper: Human rights issues raised by visa refusal or cancellation under section 501 of the Migration Act
    This background paper sets out some basic information about the process of visa refusal and cancellation under section 501, and discusses these human rights concerns about the process and its consequences.
    2013

    Casenote: FKAG v Australia and MMM v Australia
    The UN Human Rights Committee has found that the indefinite detention of 46 refugees with adverse security assessments was arbitrary and amounted to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights…
    August 2013

    Asylum seekers, refugees and human rights – Snapshot Report
    The purpose of this report is to provide an overview – or ‘snapshot’ – of the key human rights issues that arise from Australia’s approach to asylum seekers and refugees who arrive by boat.
    October 2013

    https://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/asylum-seekers-and-refugees?field_pb_type_value=All&field_cmn_date_value%5Bvalue%5D=&sort_by=field_cmn_date_value&sort_order=DESC&source=our-work

  22. Kaye Lee

    The first report was Review of Immigration Detention Centres (1999)
    Findings of the Human Rights Commissioner after inspecting four immigration detention centres in 1998-99.
    1999.

    Followed up by A last resort? National Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention
    This is an important report. It deals with our treatment of children in the most recent wave of boat people seeking refuge and a better life on our shores. It does so in the knowledge that there is a tension created by the community expectation that…
    2004

    The first report to Rudd was 10 years after the original report. The report to Abbott was 10 years after the fgirst inquiry specifically into children.

    Triggs gave the Abbott government a snap shot report just after he took office. She then announced a discussion paper early in 2014. National Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention 2014: Discussion Paper
    Why are we holding this inquiry? The purpose of this inquiry is to investigate the ways in which life in immigration detention affects the health, well-being and development of children. The inquiry will assess the impact on children by seeking the…
    2014

    She gave the final report to Abbott in November 2014 and they sat on it for 90 days – the maximum allowable time – before then feigning outrage like it was surprise.

  23. diannaart

    Well done Kaye Lee

    Not that it will make a shred of difference to NoS – but there are many, such as myself, who really appreciate the references to Gillian Triggs and all the hard work you do.

    NoS continues to appear very small, very narrow minded, as we have come to expect – nothing to see here.

  24. Freethinker

    When I read articles like this and the “No, we are better than this” my factor of sadness increase by 100%, not because I disagree with the articles but because on them it appears to me that the authors resist to accept the reality is that the majority of the electorate have voted for this, that the majority of the electorate have reelected these politicians including those cowers that attacked Gillian Triggs.
    What we have to ask ourselves is:
    Are this politicians agree with these crimes or just agree with their implementation because it is the wishing of the electorate?
    Well, IMO going for the 2 previous elections it is because the two above points.
    Fellow bloggers, accept it, we are a minority, it is painful but it is the truth.
    Blame the politicians if you like, but they are there because people voted for them.

    Now, I am going to have something strong…………….

  25. helvityni

    Freethinker, I have come to the same conclusion; we are in the minority.

  26. Freethinker

    helvityni, remember this?: Autism cage details emerge as United Nations investigates abuse of children (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/autism-cage-details-emerge-as-united-nations-investigates-abuse-of-children-20160809-gqo7m8.html)

    Well, the article finishing, quote:
    While 98 per cent of parents had taken their complaints directly to the school and 58 per cent had escalated that to education departments, parents were overwhelmingly dissatisfied that their concerns had been addressed.

    And despite two Senate inquiries last year condemning restrictive practices and educational neglect of students with disabilities, the group has warned that a lack of nationally consistent reporting and data collation on abuse has hampered attempts to guarantee standards of education and care. End of Quote

    This shows how authorities take action against torture, it is not only with refugees it is with the sick, the old, the disable.
    How low we can get?

    Some people will thing that I become a bitter man, not I am not I am realistic.

  27. diannaart

    Freethinker, Helvityni

    I agree, we are a minority, in fact I get the feeling that we are a minority within a minority.

    We have self-proclaimed lefties/progressives (insert preference here) who use the same language/tactics as our leaders/MSM.

    They refuse to directly address an issue.

    They are incapable of admitting to a mistake.

    They will present an opinion as fact.

    I thought I was despondent when Abbott was elected. Since then we have had mass murders, our worst suspicions confirmed regarding our penal and refugee systems, Donald effing Trump, Brexit, Pauline Hanson – 4 senators FFS!!!, we cannot get ANY action on climate change…

    I want to say something humorous – but nothing springs to mind. I really don’t know what to do any more.

  28. Neilof Sydney

    To start with, she was only appointed in July 2012.

    As your following posts show- Triggs knew what was going on but chose to do nothing. She even said why. There was an election coming up.

    The inquiry had been planned to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the commission’s first investigation

    Yes, less us wait until the 10th anniversary Triggs proclaims while who knows what child abuse is going on.

    And you wonder why Coalition voters detest this women.

  29. king1394

    When this inhumane and ridiculous ‘solution’ comes crashing down, these people will have to be brought to Australia. We (Australians) will probably be up for massive amounts of compensation, as is only fair, for ruining so many lives. Also we will have to face the consequences of allowing so many people from babies upwards to be treated so badly that they will be very poorly educated, mentally scarred, and have difficulties in joining our society. Why, after this treatment, would these people want to ‘give’ anything to such a cruel community as ours is proving to be.

  30. Kaye Lee

    Your last post makes no sense Neil. There have been reports made since 1998. The reporting has been ongoing. Chose to do nothing???? Why are you deliberately ignoring all the information I gave you about the various reports that were made to the Labor government. You are so one track Neil. It borders on ridiculous.

  31. Annie B

    Freethinker … ( August 12, 2016 at 5:13 pm )

    I feel your sadness, although – considering the amount of time it took to declare some form of mandate ( ?? ) for government, it was a close call – whichever way you look at it.

    I still consider that piddling little preferences can make or break a major party making it into government. July 2nd, we did not have hand-outs from umpteen parties that showed preferences … except for one ( which I now cannot recall the name of – may have been justice for animal conservation or something similar. ).

    An outright vote is an outright vote, and preferences should not come into it – EVER. … But that’s just my opinion. Let the first past the post on a positive [ 1 ] vote, decide the issue in the future. I would bet my life that Abbott got in, mainly on the weird little overnight sensations called ‘parties’ … and their preferences in the first place. I honestly think that one was rigged to high heaven.

    Paranoia on my part ? Maybe.

    No 1. post to do with elections.

  32. Annie B

    Freethinker …

    No 2. … I read the article you posted here : ( August 12, 2016 at 6:01 pm ) and the link you inserted.

    Was utterly appalled at the substance of that article, which leads me to say that the Diploma for Teaching, in all universities and other tertiary educational facilities must – in future – include serious training in the way to deal with autism – mild or severe.

    Bottom line is – no child should ever ever be subject to the brutality that is rising up against them … in detention centres, in schools, in public places – and wherever else ignorant people choose to lambast them, because they are ‘different’.

    Thing is, what are WE the people, prepared to do about it. … How far will we go to make sure this does not happen again. Rise up in marching protest – that is only a splash in the overnight pan for the MSM.

    Petitions often work – and offer a solution, although some here would disagree with that. Getting in the ear of the opposition ALP might also work, but one / many would have to be the proverbial squeaking chair (s) to have some impact. But – it has to be done.

    Don’t want to think that compassion and kindness is declining into the minority. There are many more decent people, who have opinions against this cruelty, but do not know how to express it. …. They / we, need to be taught how to do so. …. It is via the likes of any independent media that this can happen. And aggressive public promotion – like stickers on cars, notices on car windows and telegraph poles ( used one for climate change myself, for months … stuck on the inside of my car rear windows.) …. it CAN be done, it must be done.

    There is no excuse – not any more.

  33. Annie B

    N of S will always ignore facts. … They are his nemesis, his downfall which he aptly displays every time he posts.

    Then again, I wonder if he posts – to start an actual uproar – or even on occasions, debate. But he is obviously very right wing in his thinking, and never the twain shall meet. ( right and left, that is ). He has a right to be right wing if he chooses.

    N of S …. please, just please go educate yourself beyond your current tide of thinking, and contribute something that may be of help – to those who need it most .. in this case the cruelty being afflicted on children. SURELY, you must realise this is of prime importance and urgency. …

    If you don’t realise that, then shame on you – and pity for you. …. Try to realise the implications brought forth here – for the betterment of children ( in particular ) and all of us in general.

    Think, man – think.

  34. jim

    All the reports are a conspiracy to make you dutton look bad. Oh thats right! I see it so clearly now, there is no abuse, there is no trauma, there is no reason a bunch of Australians who served as teachers on Nauru are risking hard jail time and their life’s work to speak out (some people do tell the truth) , its all a big beat up to make dh dutton look bad.

    Hell no, we wouldn’t want to do anything to anyone that would incite them to harm us

  35. Neil of Sydney

    Why are you deliberately ignoring all the information I gave you about the various reports that were made to the Labor government.

    Triggs publicly stated there was an election coming up hence the delay in holding an enquiry. She obviously did not want to embarrass the Labor govt who had locked up all these children.

  36. Kaye Lee

    You said Triggs was silent when Labor was in government. I showed you that was crap. Why can’t you ever just say oh I was wrong.

  37. Michael Taylor

    Unbelievable, isn’t it Kaye? The same old crap day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year.

  38. Freethinker

    Michael, I started using plan B which it is treat some posts as spam.

  39. wam

    head in sand wont help anyone – to treat asylum seekers as refugees is to show a great majority of strong young men who have left their family home.- hardly a method to garner support
    Simple People Are Mainstream
    Annie B – have been involved with autistic children in small family ways and just received this – if you paste it in search – it will make your day.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06Pz2LFQ2s8

  40. Annie B

    Wam ~ ~ ~ … thank you for the link.

    I had read the story some years back, and it was really great to actually watch it now.

    Believe also, that education is addressing the problem with special instructions / courses. …. which should have been done years ago.

    After all, autism is not a new syndrome.

    …….

  41. Neil of Sydney

    Chose to do nothing????

    Yep and Triggs even said why

    I did want to hold an inquiry as a result of the escalating numbers of children. It was of great concern to the Human Rights Commission. But we were well aware that we were moving into an election period. As you know, the poll date was announced considerably in advance of the election. Although I knew the numbers were rising—and of course the Human Rights Commission would, in the normal course of events, want to hold some sort of inquiry into these rising numbers and the conditions of the children’s detention—I felt, and it was my judgement, that it would not be appropriate to hold that inquiry in an election year.

    Load of crap. Triggs did not want to hold an enquiry because it would shame the ALP. Bet you anything you like her answer would be different if it was a Coalition govt who locked up all these kids. The answer would be we must act to say kids from being abused if the Coalition was in power.

  42. Michael Taylor

    Oh FFS you talk a load of rubbish, Neil. You really do give me the utter shits. You are without doubt the most pathetic individual I’ve ever encountered.

  43. diannaart

    When the shit hits the vortex that Labor and the LNP have created, it will not matter who said what when. Everyone is going to look really bad. Australia is going to look really bad.

    No more moral grandstanding. To which I say about bloody time, as it means we can clean up our messes starting with indigenous, any vulnerable minority you care to name and finishing with those we treat as the detritus of war – innocent men, women and children.

  44. Freethinker

    Neil of SydneyAugust 14, 2016 at 2:06 pm
    Chose to do nothing????
    Load of crap. Triggs did not want to hold an enquiry because it would shame the ALP. Bet you anything you like her answer would be different if it was a Coalition govt who locked up all these kids. The answer would be we must act to say kids from being abused if the Coalition was in power.
    End of quote….er craps

    IMO you have to start refrain to post craps and start getting the right information.
    We have enough with Pauline and glad that she is not participating here.
    Perhaps Pauline or the same kind of individuals have a blog where you can participate without be ridicule.

  45. Freethinker

    Labor ‘gobsmacked’ by Tony Abbott’s U-turn on ‘Malaysia solution’
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/aug/14/labor-gobsmacked-by-tony-abbotts-u-turn-on-malaysia-solution

    TRANSCRIPT OF THE HON. TONY ABBOTT MP, ADDRESS TO THE SAMUEL GRIFFITH SOCIETY, STAMFORD PLAZA HOTEL, ADELAIDE ( http://tonyabbott.com.au/2016/08/transcript-of-the-hon-tony-abbott-mp-address-to-the-samuel-griffith-society-stamford-plaza-hotel-adelaide/ )

    Quote: I wonder, though, about the former government’s people swap with Malaysia.
    The 800 boat people that could have been sent to Malaysia was less than a months’ intake, even then. end of quote

  46. Trish Corry

    I think some people conveniently forget some very important facts when shoving Labor and Liberal down the same toilet.

    Labor had onshore processing, people drowned. The nation responded that they did not want people drowning.

    Labor then came up with the regional settlement of the Malaysia solution, which the Greens and Liberals rejected. People would have been settled in Malaysia, would have been able to go to school and work. Tony Abbott has now questioned the appropriateness of rejecting this model.

    Then to prevent people from drowning, they looked to another nation part of the UN Convention and that was PNG. Rudd organised this, but Labor was then ousted from power and the practices we have witnessed are from the LNP. Labor has spoken up many times about the treatment of refugees in parliament, but apparently that is also easily forgettable.

    The LNP removed the refugee tribunal, shrouded the entire operation in secrecy, paid people smugglers cash money and refused medical and legal treatment of individuals. Labor has done none of this. Yet are blamed for this.

    Gillian Triggs did a review, which also pointed out Labor had to improve in this policy area also. The Liberal made a lot of noise, pointed fingers at Triggs, called for her resignation. Labor, however, actually did take stock of that, and changed their policy, which some people blatantly choose to purposely ignore, regardless of how many times this has been explained.

    Labor was the party who actually took Gillian Trigg’s report seriously and worked hard to develop a new policy based on that report.

    Labor’s current policy although it includes offshore (to prevent drownings at sea), includes funding refugee camps in transit countries (also supported by the Greens, point 14 of their policy), which if this works ‘should’ see the need for Manus and Nauru redundant.

    Labor’s current policy also includes the removal of secrecy. Introducing transparency alone, will ensure that Labor is open to the humane treatment of people, as the Media and other politicians will be allowed to review the procedures there. (Which is supported by point 5 of the Principles of the Green’s policy and not supported by the LNP).

    Labor’s current policy includes increasing refugee intake and working with other countries for resettlement (as supported by item 16 of the Greens policy and not supported by the LNP).

    Labor’s current policy includes an Independent overseer and a child guardian (as supported in item 7 of the Green’s policy and not supported by the LNP)

    Labor’s current policy includes, access to medical and legal (as supported by the item 13 of the Greens policy and not supported by the LNP).

    Labor’s current policy includes KPI’s for processing and the return of the refugee tribunal (as supported by items 21 & 22 of the Greens policy and opposed by LNP)

    For those flushing Labor and Liberals down the same toilet and praising the Greens, my questions regarding Greens advocates are

    If Labor is so aligned with the LNP, and the Greens are far superior, why do the Greens have more alignment with current Labor policy than the LNP have with Labor? Why do Greens supporters keep flushing Labor down the same toilet as the LNP?

    Are there absolutely no questions to be raised with the Green’s policy? Are they suddenly the only party in the world to come up with the perfect model to a problem clearly defined as the strict definition of a wicked problem?

    In their policy they have absolutely nothing that deals with the real life existence of people smugglers to contend with in the region. The absence in the policy about boat arrivals makes me wonder if the Greens think people smugglers are just a myth.

    In their policy they do not outline how they will deal with people coming by boat (will they intercept and put them aboard a better boat and bring them to shore, will they just let people sail all the way to Australia and risk drowning?)

    Will the model of onshore detention for 30 days for security & health clearance and then released into the community, with full access to health, medical, legal and housing, have any implications on existing communities where access to health and housing may be tight or unaffordable? How would the Greens Govt manage dissent in communities with tight housing or scarce medical, going to refugees before Australians (a common outcry from anti-immigrationists).

    I see they want to disperse more refugees to regional towns (something I support, as does Labor), but the question for both parties, will they ensure the necessary infrastructure and services is in place in these communities, as living in regional QLD, it is frustrating that so many things are Capital city central – and surely this is the case in other states.

    There are no determinations on if this 30 days is a realistic time frame and what they do if they cannot clear someone after 30 days.

    They advocate a system of onshore detention, what are the guarantees of fair treatment in onshore detention, that cannot be achieved in an offshore system, which is designed to prevent a massive influx of people seeking asylum and risking death by drowning.

    How will the Greens manage a model that may see a higher rate of people seeking asylum coming to Australia, if they believe they will be settled here in 30 days? Who will they blame if people, including children do drown? Themselves? People smugglers? Asylum seekers? How will the Greens prevent people from drowning?

    My preferred model is a period of onshore detention for health and security and a billet program, however, I recognise that this is indeed fanciful and it not a simple solution, unless we break the people smuggler model, by simply flying people into Australia.

    The complications of this model are: Is there a cap – do we take an unlimited amount of asylum seekers? What is the maximum capacity of influx we can handle? What would our process be of denying flying people to Australia for processing from Indonesia? Is this fair to those who are currently in camps in other areas, who have not been able to afford to get to Indonesia?

    For every solution, there is a complex set of risks/problems. This is indeed the ultimate definition of the term ‘wicked problem’ What as a nation do we accept as the risks – drownings, unlimited intake, people being released into the community after 30 days, even if they haven’t done a proper health check etc., pressures on housing and medical services in regional communities? Do we accept an increase of unlimited asylum seekers, or will there be a cap? How do the Greens deny access to legitimate asylum seekers? If there is a huge influx of people seeking aslyum, what is their right to work? Will this have any impact on unemployment levels? (I am talking about a huge influx, not a sustainable one).

    The model of pushing more funding into onshore UNHCR camps in other countries, and a regional resettlement plan (which includes Australia) for quick resettlement, will undermine the need for the people smuggles and offshore detention and that is Labor’s model. That is the model I prefer.

    Lest we forget the Greens model of senate reform has delivered us the largest number of right wing anti-immigration cross benchers (I believe) we have had in our existence, coupled with their incessant bashing of Labor and dropping the ball on the LNP. What hope is there now for Asylum seekers? It is so easy for the Greens to be precious, rather than realistic and putting self interest aside for a common goal to affect real change. As the Greens do agree with so many aspects of Labor’s policy and share similar elements of Labor’s policy, they could have found agreement with Labor on this and a way forward. This is the biggest source of frustration for me, that it will now be a long time coming. Some people have been in detention for more than three years. How is that something we should accept?

  47. Freethinker

    Trish said, quote: abor then came up with the regional settlement of the Malaysia solution, which the Greens and Liberals rejected. People would have been settled in Malaysia, would have been able to go to school and work. Tony Abbott has now questioned the appropriateness of rejecting this model. End of quote
    The regional settlement as far as I know was not rejected by the Greens and the Liberals. It was illegal
    The amending the Migration Act was rejected.

    Trish, you are saying, quote: “Labor had onshore processing, people drowned. The nation responded that they did not want people drowning.”

    I would look it in a different way: The nation responded that they did not want people come to Australia.
    Since the increase of restriction for boat people to come to our shores, the refugee seekers were left or murdered by the people smugglers in countries in route to Australia.
    The “solution” by both big parties do not work unless the supporters of these policies do not care about what happens to the refugees ïn transit”

    This is the ALP solution: Thousands of Myanmar refugees, asylum seekers stuck in Malaysian poverty cycle
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-29/thousands-of-refugees-stuck-in-malaysian-poverty-cycle/6575134

  48. Trish Corry

    Freethinker: Are you really saying that people were fine with asylum seekers drowning, but just did not want them coming to Australia? Are you talking about the majority of Australians, or the loud pockets of right wing anti-immigration extremists? If it is the former, Australia is a pathetic country.

    I’m a bit confused about the restriction of boats coming to our shores. Is that from Liberal or Labor or both? People smugglers are the model that both of these parties have been trying to break. They extort money from people, rape them, kill them, put them in holes in the ground. Will ‘open borders’ (although that is not the Greens chosen narrative, but current common narrative) do anything to change this model, or will 30 days clearance and then living in the Australian community create more need for people smugglers? That is a question to be considered. No nice answer to this problem is there?

    If you think that as a supporter of the Labor party I don’t care with happens to people seeking asylum, you can stick that up your jumper. To be frank. I have outlined above that this situation is a wicked problem. A wicked problem means that for every solution, there is a set of opposing serious problems. There is no perfect model. We can do better, indeed, but unless Labor is in Government to effect change, and keep progressing improvements to the care and processing of those seeking aslylum, (which will be forced upon them by the inclusion of transparency and KPIs and refugee tribunal – unless you cannot see the significance of this!) then there is no way forward.

  49. Annie B

    I guess everyone is up to speed on this ‘delightful’ piece of news.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/federal-government-asks-australian-federal-police-to-find-nauru-whistleblowers-20150930-gjyj0i.html

    This is beyond despicable. It is dictatorship at it’s worst. … Am wondering if the AFP are closely examining their policies and authorisations, to avoid doing whatever the Minister for Immigration ( I can’t bare to type its name ) is dreaming up in furthering the inhumanity to not only refugees, but to the tellers of truth. … not something the M for I can stand – i.e. truth, obviously.

    **************
    Neil of Sydney … don’t bother to click on it. …. You might do yourself a mischief – might choke on the report or something. … But then maybe not – you ‘don’t do facts’ … do you.

  50. Annie B

    And yes Trish, initially and ideally it was the smugglers the Aussie governments went after. …

    Somewhere along the way, that morphed into the refugees themselves being ‘dealt with’ … in a most inhumane, cruel and severe manner. …

    It is shameful – and most of us I believe, feel shame, or at least utter perplexity – to be living in the same country as this rabid mob called ‘a government ‘.

  51. Freethinker

    Trish CorryAugust 14, 2016 at 5:28 pm
    1) Freethinker: Are you really saying that people were fine with asylum seekers drowning, but just did not want them coming to Australia?
    2) Are you talking about the majority of Australians, or the loud pockets of right wing anti-immigration extremists?

    Trish, I said that people in Australia do care less about the damage the the Howard government together with USA and UK in the Irag.
    The information is out there about the consequences of it and also the closure of our borders.
    I have to assume that in a case like this people are informed that have choose to not take the responsibility of the actions by the governments that they have voted.
    I have to assume that people know what happens to those refugees in the way to Australia that were stopped or left on the countries on the way here.
    I have to assume that people know that the Australian Border Force Act, supported by the ALP and opposed only by the Greens, effectively turns the Department of Immigration into a secret security organisation with police powers. Although the Act seems to be directed at Customs operations, it also seeks to regulate and control access to information about asylum seekers in immigration detention.
    Under the Act, it is a criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment of up to two years, for any person working directly or indirectly for the Department of Immigration and Border Protection to reveal to the media or any other person or organisation (the only exceptions being the Immigration Department and other Commonwealth agencies, police, coroners) anything that happens in detention centres like Nauru and Manus Island.

    Regarding the second point, I am talking about what people have vote for.

  52. Trish Corry

    Thanks Annie. So People Smugglers no longer a thing? Just people seeking asylum getting on boats of their own accord? I’m not following your logic here about the morphing process. I understand that the Liberals use language that vilifies Asylum Seekers and agree some things Labor says, they need to also change their narrative…..but people smugglers still exist.

  53. diannaart

    ……..but people smugglers still exist….

    Yes, and? Smugglers are not going anywhere so why are we still persecuting the refugees?

    We could cooperate with Indonesia and help them set up humane, safe clean housing while assessing people – we can also select people for immigration to Australia at the same time.

    The money wasted on private companies and off shore encampments can be used far better than we are doing currently.

    Labor can bite the bullet and say there are better ways to do things, can’t it?

  54. Trish Corry

    Under the Act, it is a criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment of up to two years, for any person working directly or indirectly for the Department of Immigration and Border Protection to reveal to the media or any other person or organisation (the only exceptions being the Immigration Department and other Commonwealth agencies, police, coroners) anything that happens in detention centres like Nauru and Manus Island.

    This is a contentious issue. On one hand a nation divided on security measures opens itself up to being a weak country and a legitimate target. On the other hand, the wording of the legislation, and the advice from the parliamentary committee process, stated that these people were protected under whistle blower legislation. Labor took that is appropriate advice from a respected process. When it became evident that this was misleading by the Government, then Labor included in their policy that reporting is Mandatory.

    I hope that clears that up for you, that that, circumstance was not black and white and to understand this takes a lot of digging and piecing together of what was said in the senate daily journals.

    I am in full agreement that asylum seekers and their treatment do not seem to be a prominent issue for Australians. This is indeed reflected in the current voting of the last election.

  55. Trish Corry

    “We could cooperate with Indonesia and help them set up humane, safe clean housing while assessing people – we can also select people for immigration to Australia at the same time.”

    Which is Labor’s policy, you appear to be choosing to ignore. However, Labor along with the Greens also advocates for a regional solution as well as settlement in Australia.

    “Labor can bite the bullet and say there are better ways to do things, can’t it? ”

    Maybe that is their existing policy you choose to ignore. What can Labor do if people such as yourself choose to ignore the current policy? You can’t say you haven’t seen it. I’ve outlined it on AIMN, a number of times, as blog posts and during conversation to which you were a part of

  56. diannaart

    Labor does not intend closing the detention centres on Nauru or Manus Island and to continue “turning boats around” we know that doesn’t stop people from getting on boats and, therefore, deaths. There have been drownings and deaths at sea since the TurnBackTheBoats – we are just not told about it.

    We need to start helping in Indonesia AND in the Middle East where most of our refugees are running from. This would prevent far more de4aths than anything we have done thus far.

    Check for yourself: http://www.alp.org.au/asylumseekers

  57. Trish Corry

    If Labor is going to be working with Indonesia and funding UNHCR camps there and other transit places and work hard to process people out of these camps and resettle them quickly, please present a solid argument as to why the need for people arriving by boat via people smugglers will not decrease? Until that time, offshore to prevent more people coming via people smugglers, is definitely the preferred option, rather than onshore, as detailed for the reasons outlined in Shorten’s address at National Conference.

    The Greens will be doing the same thing, but do not address anything at all about people arriving by boat, so……..what happens there? What do the Greens propose? IF they are funding camps the same as Labor, will the boats magically stop for the Greens, but not Labor? What are you suggesting here?

    No need to link me Labor’s policy – I can debate this without looking at it. I’ve actually invested time in not just reading it, but comprehending it, analysing it and discussing it widely.

  58. Trish Corry

    We need to start helping in Indonesia AND in the Middle East where most of our refugees are running from. This would prevent far more de4aths than anything we have done thus far. –

    Just to point this out very blatantly in capitals – you do know THIS IS LABOR’S POLICY?

  59. Annie B

    Trish … your comment ( August 14, 2016 at 6:02 pm ).

    Don’t quite understand your misunderstanding of the word ‘morph’. …

    It means ‘change’ from one thing to another ( plainly speaking ) – but also applies to graphics etc. in computer technology but we ain’t on that subject.

    ” So People Smugglers no longer a thing?” ,,,,, NO, and I didn’t say that.

    There is absolutely NO DOUBT that people smugglers will continue to exist. They might go quiet for a while, but will inevitably re-emerge. They are the crap of the earth, seeking as many $$$ as they can get, from people who can ill afford any such thing, but are desperate. So – people smugglers ‘trade’ and exist on other peoples’ suffering, anxiety, panic and fear. … They should all be dealt with way MORE than severely, not just in our own waters, but across the globe ( see Europe / Britain for instance ).

    I was referring to the original concept by the Liberal Government of ‘turning the boats around’ ( starting surreptitiously with Howard ) … then Labor condoning and then going back and forth on the concept — and finally the current LNP government ( if one could call it that ) … making the refugees the problem – and not anywhere near as much as the mongrels that will still use unseaworthy boats, while extracting money from desperate people.

    THAT seems to have been put on the backburner, so … I repeat – it has ‘morphed’ from seeking and downing the smugglers, into making refugees the problem ( where to put them, how to deal with them, they don’t benefit us, blah, blah ) … and thus, we have the evolved inhumane, filthy and unutterably cruel detention centres that are Manus, Nauru and Christmas Island, although Christmas Island has not come under scrutiny recently. …..

    Children are the main worry ( as far as I am concerned ) in these prison like ‘centres’ devised by this guv’mint, to keep unwanteds (?? ) out of Australia, when in fact they are genuine refugees, and should be considered as such, until all details of said refugees are checked …. there would undoubtedly be some culling of those who are trying to be ‘economic’ refugees – but that blanket does NOT cover 100% of them. …. For God’s sake.

    I believe diannaart ( August 14, 2016 at 6:08 pm ) summed it up more eloquently than I have.

    But much more has been said here … and frankly – the entire situation must be re-addressed, ideally – but who is going to do that, without damaging their precious egos’ and wilful determination to be dictators ….. at the expense of fearful people, who seek a home, but are not welcome in the wonderful island continent that is Australia.

    The undeniable persecution of refugees / asylum seekers / or just ‘terrified human beings’ MUST BE STOPPED … somehow.

    I think Labor might try – and even succeed – – – the LNP and their current M of I ……. NEVER. …. Think about why Turnbull did not oust that cretin from his Abbott days post. … Think.

    And then reconsider.

  60. Trish Corry

    Thanks – I’m quite clear as to what Morph means. But your comment below implies what I thought you may have meant. The original post kind of read (to me) that there is now an absence of people smugglers. I think Labor mentions People smugglers frequently in this topic, however, I do agree that LNP do not and stigmatise refugees as their main objective, just as they do with anything they want to eradicate such as stigmatising those on welfare.

    “I was referring to the original concept by the Liberal Government of ‘turning the boats around’ ( starting surreptitiously with Howard ) … then Labor condoning and then going back and forth on the concept — and finally the current LNP government ( if one could call it that ) … making the refugees the problem – and not anywhere near as much as the mongrels that will still use unseaworthy boats, while extracting money from desperate people.”

    Sorry, but I don’t think Diannaart summed it up great at all. I’ve been talking to Dianna all day, and frankly, as long as it is anti-Labor it seems to suit her purposes. We need to seriously move away from this idealistic type rhetoric and deeply engage in the actual problems that arise from the solutions proposed. Rather then talking about little quips about politicians and their egos. I don’t think ANY politician wants this to be a contentious issue. Liberal won this on the populist vote, but now it is unravelling as populism doesn’t hold the value of wisdom (not mine – I borrowed that from JK Rowlings from Twitter today – it really resonated with me!) I say this, because the handing of everything to do with Asylum seekers is theoretically defined as a wicked problem. That is a problem that for every solution, there is an equal or damaging problem that will arise.

    We need to stop beating around the bush and just debating blatant nice-ities like “just bring them to shore’ or “down with offshore” or Labor bad, Greens good. It helps nothing. What does help, is looking at the proposed solutions and discussing what problems arise from these solutions, what we will accept from these arising problems and the best way to progress it. It would also be helpful, if people who want to sincerely engage in this topic, actually are cognisant of the various policy options available – in depth – not at surface level.

    The latest batch of emails that were released is sickening and I am angry that no major or minor-major party – including Labor, of which I am a member made this a contentious, agenda setting issue during the election.

  61. Annie B

    From Freethinker ….

    “Under the Act, it is a criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment of up to two years, for any person working directly or indirectly for the Department of Immigration and Border Protection to reveal to the media or any other person or organisation (the only exceptions being the Immigration Department and other Commonwealth agencies, police, coroners) anything that happens in detention centres like Nauru and Manus Island.”

    Who the HELL dreamed that one up … and worse, who in the Senate ( and other parties ) condoned it and put their signatures to it. ?

    I have no doubt someone here has already answered the question, but – there is so much to consider, forgive me if I have missed something ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/aug/10/the-nauru-files-2000-leaked-reports-reveal-scale-of-abuse-of-children-in-australian-offshore-detention

    Don’t bother to click on the link ….. I have little doubt most here have read it. !!

    On second thoughts .. read it. It is a shortish precis of the Nauru files. AND if just one of the ‘leaked’ files is true, it is one too many. The M of I, considers this all to be ‘put up job’. He is a brute of the highest calibre….. In my 70+ years, ( minus years as a child ) … I have never witnessed such crass, vile and wicked intention, from any government, or any government minister.

    Fascism – show thy face. … It is already doing that …. Secrecy in the form of legislation – passed as “The Border Force” Act … .

    “The Border Force Act goes much further than any other Commonwealth, state or territory legislation in seeking to reduce scrutiny of government actions in a detention setting. This legislation is antithetical to a society that professes to be a liberal democracy where independent scrutiny of, and protection for those who lift the veil on human rights abuses ought be the norm.” …. from http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-28/barns-newhouse-detention-centre-secrecy-just-got-even-worse/6501086

    Written by ” Greg Barns is a barrister and spokesman for the Australian Lawyers Alliance.” and ” George Newhouse is a Special Counsel with Shine Lawyers Social Justice Department.”

    I rather think they just might know what they are talking about.

    Hope that clears a few queries and questions here. !!

  62. Annie B

    Trish ….. problem can be when people are posting at the same time !! 😉 …. Things cross.

    I should have mentioned the time and day that diannaart posted .. .. to which I agreed. It was ( August 14, 2016 at 6:08 pm ).

    I have never found diannaart to be anti-Labor over many moons, but then – it is possible that anyone can change – we all could. I doubt it though in diannas’ case. She is I believe disgusted that Labor has not stood up more strongly against this rabid mob in the past. But ( I am soooo hoping ) they should and hopefully will this time – with the Nauru leaked files, being their armoury ….

    Remains to be seen … politics is dirty – always has been, always will be, and no-one can second guess what any of the bastards will do …. including the Greens ( who say one thing and then change their minds ), which has happened in recent past.

    Your last two paragraphs ( August 14, 2016 at 9:38 pm ) hit many notes, but I have to ask – just WHO is going to “look at the proposed solutions and discuss what problems arise from these solutions ” … Certainly will not be this current government, who hide behind as much as they can – the realities that arise, because they are the ones in power … the head honcho just clams shut and spouts more rhetoric. … Aimed at bamboozling the public.

    And with due respect, I don’t think the ‘last batch of emails’ sickening as they were, were available during or prior to the election, so Labor could have done nothing with them. … ( a pity ).

    I still believe Labor has much to offer – but given the current calibre of politicians on display, I have to wonder. Not at all sure that ” politicians don’t like contentious situations ” … it gives them grist for the mill, to put forward as ‘something for the public to think about’ situations that DO need to addressed, but ultimately won’t be. Not many of them however, ever say exactly how they are going to address any given situation, … specifically.

    Not swaying away from Labor …. just wondering – – a little bit.

  63. Trish Corry

    “Just WHO is going to “look at the proposed solutions and discuss what problems arise from these solutions ”

    Us – the people, the people who are interested in this debate. I am a strong believer that narrative is a powerful tool and narrative shapes society. People also have an influence in politics.

    I should have made it clear – it was not the emails I was talking about – but the relative silence on the Asylum seeker debate itself during the election.

    What I mean by contentious is no party wants any issue that would lose them seats and power. The handling of Asylum seekers by the LNP is disgusting and abhorrent and I refuse to believe that Labor would treat people in the same manner, even if they were also managing offshore detention. The Secrecy would not be there for a start. That alone would force change. Look at what the reveal of the emails has done. Imagine if that had been transparent all along.

  64. Annie B

    Agree with you Trish – mainly ….

    But we the people can only do this via independent media, social media and by direct interaction with others … which translates to a very small %age, considering the brick walls one would encounter from – a) those who still ( ridiculously ) believe in the LNP, b) those who say ” I don’t discuss politics – piss off ” .. c) those who would join a debate on it, which could backfire – – – or perhaps have an impact ( hopefully ). …

    It is a small percentage whichever way we look at it —– and the bastards in government know this only too well.

    So – do we wait until the next election, or rise up now in revolution ? … only to be brought to heel by the iniquitous “Australian Border Control ” who seem to be enabled to pluck bods out of anywhere, as suits the time and the LNP ….. or the AFP, or the local police – for causing a riot ? … into which no doubt the likes of Hanson and her conquistadors, and the United Patriots / True Blue Crew .. would undoubtedly stick their dirty long noses in, just the for the fun of a public punch up and further notoriety via the Murdoch ‘menage’ who would delight in promoting these morons via nightly newscasts.

    Narrative is indeed a strong tool, but not the only one, although at the moment I cannot think of any other alternatives…

    ” Imagine if that ( the emails ) had been transparent all along” …. agreed, but they were not.

    There is a long row to hoe here Trish.

  65. Trish Corry

    Personally, my belief is that the emails have tipped the debate over the edge. Regardless of how Labor would have managed Asylum seekers offshore, as opposed to the Liberals, is now irrelevant.

    I am struggling to see how any party – including Labor, can advocate for an offshore policy that would have the trust of not just the people in Australia, but other countries. Regardless of how Labor would manage this, offshore is synonymous with mistreatment and abuse in the eyes of many.

    I know this, because although Labor’s policy is extremely sound and detailed in how their practices would ensure fair and just treatment, people consistently turn a deaf ear to it. The damage has been done. People don’t want to know. They don’t want to listen.

    I see two ways forward. For Labor to insist and use whatever leverage they can to insist on transparency and the adoption of their policy (which is highly unlikely the Libs will accept this)

    Or Labor needs to come up with an alternative onshore policy, but the must explain what they will do if this brings with it a huge influx of people coming via people smuggler and people drowning again and also the people who have pushed and pushed for onshore, must also come to terms with that there is NO perfect solution and that problems will arise with any solution put forward.

    The only other way to break the people smuggler model is to fly people here directly, but then that also has associated counter problems. Every solution that is put up does. People need to just stop talking about this issue as if there is a perfect solution to it. It is complex.

    I think the camps need to be shut immediately under the current regime. It cannot go on this way. If Onshore is returned and people drown and then people blame Labor for it – what then? No one wants to talk about that. There was a chance that Labor could have Governed and implemented their policies which would have vastly changed the ways things operate, but this is not a serious enough issue for that to occur. Many people – especially Greens voters loudly condemn Labor before they have been able to even implement their policy and practices on this. They loudly praise the Greens policy – but never, ever question it. I find this a real source of frustration.

    Labor as the alternative Government and opposition, do have a responsibility to move this forward and I am interested to see what this will be and how they will manage it.

    Never underestimate the power of the narrative on social media, independent media – these conversations extend to workplaces, homes, dinner table, etc,. March in March was a powerful movement and created solely online.

  66. diannaart

    Thanks Annie B

    I really appreciate your support and the fact I made some sense to somebody.

    I am angry at Labor.

    I am angry because Labor can do a lot better.

    Even in Labor’s current list of policies (promises which can change), there is no outline for weaning off coal mining, nothing about what happens to the situation of those people held in off-sore detention for so many years now – will they be given a chance here in Australia, will they have the life-long medical and health support they will need after the horrors of detention? Will Labor redress the abomination of the Newstart allowance? Will Labor reinstate the many cuts to public services? And slashes to community programs, the ABC, the ABS, even the ATO? CSIRO????? Properly fund publics schools? Speak out against the USA, regardless who who wins the election?

    F*ck, I am still so tired, even though the day outside is dripping in sunshine…. I don’t handle abuse very well. Not here. Not anyone here on AIMN (well not recently) but on another blog… Note to self; “my suspicions of people who are unexpectedly excessively fulsome with their praise are spot on”.

  67. Annie B

    diannaart …. ( August 15, 2016 at 11:07 am )

    You are welcome. …. and I can totally understand your frustration and anger at an apparently ‘submissive’ Labor party – as it seems to be on occasions. Admittedly, during the election lead-up, Shorten did use stronger voice and language, and it almost got him there … but near enough is never close enough or a win.

    My own discomfort comes from the hints from Labor that they are leaning considerably right wing, so your list of things they should do when in power ( and that will happen, sooner the better ), may not come to fruition. Some will, but not all.

    I feel like putting a cattle prod into Shortens backside, to get him moving – but then, silence can be golden at times, ( it tends to make the opposition [ to anything ] feel somewhat uneasy ) … and I don’t believe they are sitting back and doing nothing. Thinking caps most certainly would be on in the Labor camp.

    ……….

    Had a phone call last night allegedly from a Greens representative who was more than a little verbose. It was not in the form of questions, but rather just a conversation ( which rang a few alarm bells ) … he was not abusive, in fact was over effusive if anything. I was careful in the way I responded, but did point out that the Greens have swayed back and forth in their adherences to Labor and Liberal policies recently, in which case I would be wary. Also told him I was a staunch Labor supporter. And that was about it. … All this while I was accessing the Greens site, which listed their ‘initiatives, if in some powerful position. … There were no less than 109 items classified under those ‘initiatives’. … One helluva lot to deal with and put forward.

    Some of them related loosely to others … but I saw it as biting off more than they could chew. … However, being quick to judge is not a good thing. Remains to be seen. .. I should have asked him where he accessed my number, as the landline phone here is not in my name. But, perhaps it was a random call.

    Am wondering if anyone else here has had such a call. ? Could have been one of the major parties, fishing for information … ?? …

    Nothing is impossible in politics’ dirty game.

  68. diannaart

    I cannot see an end to the two-party system, without mutiny on both sides. Both Libs and Labor are all about winning power, if this results in some things being done FOR Australia, it is more by chance than intent.

    I cannot return to the Labor fold, the actions on asylum seekers, not good enough. I don’t regret voting for them this year, but will not in future. I just really hoped the LNP would lose.

    Which is why I will continue to give support to those progressives wherever I can.

    As for your ‘Greens’ call, haven’t heard anything like that from the Greens, before or after the election. Although we do wind up on phone lists even when we think we are being careful.

    Regards

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