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Let’s talk about immigration

Whilst politics has always been an adversarial arena, the last decade has seen parliamentary debate sink to such a low level that they have become an impediment to rational thinking and progress.  As they battle each other for the funniest zinger or most cutting accusation, the country lumbers on with no direction.

The reality show that is Canberra has dealt itself out of any relevance in addressing the issues facing our country.  They are more interested in keeping their job than actually doing it.  Looking for someone to blame is more important than looking for a solution.

As they tear each other apart, let’s ignore them for a moment and talk about immigration.

Immigration is a topic about which people often hold very strong views which can lead to passionate disagreement.

Some opponents to immigration offer reasonable arguments, concerned about unemployment, housing, inadequate infrastructure, dwindling resources, population growth and the strain it places on the natural environment.

Others fear people who are different.  They are suspicious of people who speak another language, who look different, who wear different clothing, who pray differently.  They think, because ethnic groups often gravitate together, that they are taking over areas and pushing out ‘locals’.  They will never ‘assimilate’.  They are frightened that Australian ‘values’ are under assault and that minorities will impose their ‘way of life’ on us all.

If we are going to stop the race to the bottom between Hanson, Bernardi, and the right of the Coalition, we need to address the genuine concerns and the unnecessary fears that opportunistic politicians are exploiting.

Many of the concerns of the first group could be addressed if we put our minds to it.

We don’t have a housing shortage in Australia.  Our problem is the concentration of people in urban areas exacerbated by policies favouring investors.  One of the reasons people concentrate in the cities is for the employment, another is for access to facilities and opportunities.

If we could encourage people to settle in regional areas, this would relieve the burden on the cities and revitalise our country towns which would improve the services they could provide.

Barnaby Joyce’s solution to this is to forcibly relocate people, moving existing jobs to his electorate.  He also wants to build an inland freight rail.  And some dams.

A far better plan would be to build the high speed rail passenger network linking Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney and Brisbane via 12 regional centres.

It would give regional areas the population to maintain schools and hospitals and small businesses thus providing employment and services in the town.  It would open up affordable housing.  It would allow fast access to the cities when required.  It would free up existing rail lines for freight, reduce the number of cars competing with trucks on interstate highways and the number of passenger flights clogging up our airports.  It would reduce congestion in the cities and demand on stretched resources.  It would reduce pollution from cars and planes.  Migrants could be encouraged to settle in country areas who would welcome them and help them become part of a smaller community where people know each other.  Tourists could get off the crowded beaten track on the coast.

Populations tend to plateau naturally as people become better educated and more prosperous.  In Australia, our fertility rate (average number of children born to each woman) is below replacement level at 1.9.  We are having less children and breeding later, which slows growth.

Aside from immigration, a contributing factor to population growth is our increasing longevity.  This certainly should influence our planning for the future but old people don’t keep having kids so the effect is not exponential.

It should also be noted that skilled migration saves us the cost of educating the worker and provides a significant return to the economy.  It should be used discerningly to fill temporary shortages whilst we train our citizens to fill identified areas of need.

The concerns of the second group of opponents to immigration I find harder to accept.

In my opinion, the more diverse, tolerant, inclusive and accepting our society is, the safer we are.  People come here knowing what the country is like – why would they try to change it into the country they have left?  We are all different.  We all have something to offer if accepted and encouraged to do so.  We don’t have to look alike or have the same beliefs or eat the same foods.

Problems arise when people feel alienated or isolated – all people, not just migrants.  It’s no fun when people keep putting you down, not because you have done anything wrong, for just being who you are.

If migrants are having trouble adjusting to life in Australia, we should help them.  We should not demand they give up their identity and their heritage.  We should help them learn English and educate them about cultural differences they may encounter. There are some cultural practices that are completely unacceptable in Australia and against our laws.  We should have in place a process that deals with new arrivals to explain any differences in the law between their country of origin and Australia that may cause problems eg child marriage and female genital mutilation which are common in some countries (this is more cultural than religious).

I cannot hate someone because they are different to me.  Differences teach us things, bring us new ideas, help us to evolve, combining the best of our experience and thoughts to improve and grow.

Australia is a wonderful country and we should not let our politicians, or a few extremists, try to scare us into thinking otherwise.

PS And for pity’s sake, just bring the poor souls from Manus and Nauru here.  We have a “ring of steel” protecting the seas to our north so an influx of new boats is unlikely and we would save a fortune and go part way towards restoring our international reputation.


140 comments

  1. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    see the freudian slip has been corrected. lol.

  2. Kaye Lee

    LOL yeah 🙂 made me chuckle too

    (For the sake of others, in the first line I originally typed “sink to suck a low level” instead of “such”)

  3. townsvilleblog

    Between 2011 and 2016 Australia had 1.3 million immigrants, this is far too many, this is a factor in our high unemployment and underemployment we cannot continue to accept this many immigrants, it’s ridiculous, especially given that Australia is the driest inhabited continent on Earth we simply cannot sustain this amount of people.

  4. helvityni

    If Australia doesn’t get his act together, we might have to start worrying about emigration/exodus from Oz to Canada, NZ, the UK, and other European countries….

    A young Aussie family(daughter’s friends) were sent to Holland for three years by husband’s company, they don’t want to come back here, hoping for another three years at least…

  5. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    i know a nineth generation non indigenous aust descendant from a first fleeter who wants to emigrate i.e. get out of the shithole that this country of unimaginative redneck philistines has become. nothing against contemporary migrants but there has been too many. 300k per year under howard. ten years ago adelaide had a pop of 1 mill it is now over 1.2 mil

  6. townsvilleblog

    helvityni, that should assist us in keeping a sustainable population here in Australia, perhaps some more people would like to go…

  7. Kaye Lee

    townsvilleblog, there is credible past evidence and future modelling that shows immigration actually creates jobs and boosts participation. It gives us economies of scale. We are a wealthier nation from the contributions of migrants.

    http://migrationcouncil.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2015_EIOM.pdf

    About 88 per cent of migrants are aged under 40 years, as opposed to only 54 per cent of resident Australians; almost half of newcomers are aged 20-34 years versus only one in five resident Australians. Migrants are mainly young and at their prime working age, something we need to help support our aging population.

    Australia is the sixth-largest country by geographical area – we have the room if we spread out.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-21/carvalho-why-migrants-may-be-our-greatest-economic-asset/6409042

    As far as water is concerned, we need to do much more about reusing treated waste water and capturing storm water.

  8. jim

    It’s all Labors fault , Labor made John Howard be the very first to send them to offshore detention centers and he was applauded for it big time only by the MSM of course.

  9. Robert REYNOLDS

    Dear Kaye,

    Thank you for your invitation to talk about immigration. I am pleased to advise you that I am very happy to accept that invitation. Having read your essay I would say at the outset that while I agree with some of your points, I totally disagree with your fundamental views on immigration.

    What are my basic views on immigration? Well I am convinced by the arguments which Dick Smith makes in his excellent series of 8 x 10 minute or so videos. Dick’s show was broadcast on television a year or two back.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W12MbEdKGM&list=PLA5869B0A4D8CC5DA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-I309BKU-o

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoymsXoApF0&list=PLA5869B0A4D8CC5DA&index=3

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3WSlqgcVoQ&list=PLA5869B0A4D8CC5DA&index=4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CWPYOh1K7o&index=5&list=PLA5869B0A4D8CC5DA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WkaZh4639A&index=6&list=PLA5869B0A4D8CC5DA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkrkLQjsmAY&list=PLA5869B0A4D8CC5DA&index=7

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQL1j4lwAPQ&index=8&list=PLA5869B0A4D8CC5DA

    I would also very strongly recommend Douglas Murray’s recent book, “The Strange Death of Europe”. This is a truly frightening account of what can happen to counties which have large numbers of immigrants coming into them. Reading Douglas Murray’ book caused me to think of the influx of Huns, Visigoths and Vandals, etc. into Rome nearly 2 millennia ago. We know how well that ended.

    Now Kaye, let me, if I may, address some of the specific issues that you raise.

    I am one of those who fit into your category,

    “Some opponents to immigration offer reasonable arguments, concerned about unemployment, housing, inadequate infrastructure, dwindling resources, population growth and the strain it places on the natural environment.”

    All of those things concern me. As a vehement opponent of large scale immigration, let me say that I am not fearful of people who look different. I have worked for a Chinese run educational institution for nearly 20 years now. The vast majority of my students have an Asian background. I have a very close personal relationship with an Asian lady. I grew up in a very Jewish area. I had many Jewish friends at school. Yet, Kaye, none of that stops me from discerning potential trouble when I see it. I see that potential trouble with groups who ‘pray differently’. We have allowed Catholics into this country basically since white settlement. To me that church has been a ‘thorn in the side’ of secularism ever since. Only a day or so ago on this AIM site, we had reports that Archbishop Denis Hart would never accept a law requiring Catholic Clergy to report instances of child abuse that came to light in ‘The Confessional’. Then there is the Church’s policy on contraception, women clergy, homosexuals, and the list just goes on.

    Now, a similar problem is evident with Islam. I am glad that you at least acknowledge that,

    “There are some cultural practices that are completely unacceptable in Australia and against our laws.”

    I would like you to explain to me please Kaye where in the world your proposed method of dealing with immigrants who bring with them these ‘completely unacceptable’ practices (I like the way that you skirt around any reference to ‘religion’ when you refer to these unacceptable practices) works. If you have some magic formula then I suggest that you immediately make it available to the many European countries which have major problems especially with the large numbers of Muslim immigrants coming into them.

    Your comment that,

    “I cannot hate someone because they are different to me.”

    is generous and it genuinely touches me. In a perfect world that is how we all should feel.

    However Kaye, why is it that you are apparently oblivious to the fact that there are plenty of Muslims in this world who would happily behead you because you are a non-believer. Once I could simply Goggle something like, “Image behead those who insult the prophet” and dozens of pictures would come up of Muslims parading around with signs echoing these sentiments. Even in Sydney we had the instance of a child holding up a sign like this at the mother’s instigation,

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/behead-sign-child-deemed-safe-as-mother-talks-to-police-20120917-26368.html

    Don’t the alarm bells ring just a little for you, Kaye?

    Kaye, I would also say, that my experience with people who seem to be of your persuasion, is that they appear to hold the view that it is mainly white, Anglo-Saxon male, protestants who are capable of hate and violence against those who are different. This view, is as narrow as it is naive.

    Now Kaye, I was rather gob smacked to read your remark that,

    “It should also be noted that skilled migration saves us the cost of educating the worker and provides a significant return to the economy. It should be used discerningly to fill temporary shortages whilst we train our citizens to fill identified areas of need.”

    From reading some or your earlier posts I thought that you had at least some sort of background that was sympathetic to the Labor side of politics. This is the sort of comment that I would expect from a free-market IPA zealot. Your remark implicitly legitimizes cutbacks to vocational and technical training in this country. I could say much more on this but I will simply say that this view is a disgrace. Furthermore you are encouraging trained and professional people who are often valued members of poorer countries to leave their homes where they are often desperately needed and come here.

    At the local level, I seem the effects of the unsustainable levels of immigration here in my own neighborhood. Multistory blocks of hideously ugly flats (Oh, whoops , sorry, Freudian slip, I mean ‘apartments’) going up where there was previously a nice home on a quarter-acre block. Dick Smith deals extensively with this sort of issue in his excellent videos.

    Another question to consider too, Kaye, why should Australia become a repository for large numbers of immigrants because other nationalities cannot control their fecundity? The world is heavily overpopulated already. If others cannot control their reproductive rates then that is not our problem. As far as that goes, I think that we should raise the drawbridge.

    Just a final question Kaye. When the white skins arrived at this place, do you think that the Aborigines should have welcomed them and justified embracing the newcomers by using the sort of logic you use in your essay? I mean look at how we have enriched their culture and expanded their culinary, and artistic tastes!

  10. Roswell

    Robert, our apologies but your comment was caught in the spam folder (which I have now cleared). As most spammers have heaps of links in their comments, the site’s spam filter is set by default to catch any comment with over X amount of links.

  11. diannaart

    Timely article, Kaye Lee, Pea-brain Hanson entered and sat in parliament today dressed in the full burqa – yup mesh across eyes “the full serve of chips”. 😛

    Somehow, this was to prove banning the burqa nationwide as a worthwhile policy.

    When TF is anyone in Canberra going to start work? Have had a gutful of personal tit-for-tat B/S.

  12. diannaart

    ON topic.

    Am concerned about population levels, a humane approach would be to increase refugee intake, reduce current immigration (non-refugee) and ensure that all schools from 5th year – even non-governmental and religious school teach sex ed and contraception.

  13. Robert REYNOLDS

    No worries at all, Roswell. Many thanks for letting me know. I really appreciate that.

  14. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    ‘the influx of Huns, Visigoths and Vandals, etc. into Rome nearly 2 millennia ago. We know how well that ended’. the romans themselves saw themselves as refugees from greek sacked troy who settled in eutruscain land and further expanded their reach. but i think you can find a few more recent examples. albanians in serbian kosovo? israel in palestine?

  15. Kaye Lee

    diannaart,

    I must give credit to George Brandis whose reply to Hanson rightly earned the applause of the progressives and even a few of his own side. He earned my respect with that answer and showed exactly how Hanson should be dealt with.

    Robert, I have a few things to do. I will take time to respond to you.

  16. Matters Bot

    Yes Brandis did very well and off the cuff. Nevertheless Hanson won’t have damaged her appeal to her base. Wong and Di Natale gave good support as well. Disgust was felt by the vast majority of the citizens I would hope.

    Give Hanson her due – she can plumb new depths.

    (And N is so close to B on my keyboard.)

  17. OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES

    hanson is right in one respect. the burqua is not religous garb or required by islam. it is imposed by patriarchial communities. nevertheless banning it would likely be impossible as it would discriminate on cultural grounds not religious ones. in any event i dont think fed gov has power to make these laws banning items of clothing but state govs might so one wonders why hanson is actually raising this in fed parliament where the feds have no power over attire. like xenophon bringing gambling issues to fed gov when gambling is controlled by states not feds. to me this shows how much hanson is trying to deceive the public. she is raising an issue with respect to which the parliament she is sitting in has no power to do any thing. shes just a con artist. in any event if there was a gov survey on it i would oppose its banning because i would like the option of wearing it so i can conceal my identity come the revolution. and i am a male.

  18. Robert REYNOLDS

    Too true, OPPOSE THE MAJOUR PARTIES.

  19. Sheila Newman

    “If we could encourage people to settle in regional areas, this would relieve the burden on the cities and revitalise our country towns which would improve the services they could provide.”

    That’s the mainstream Liberal Population Taskforce argument today. It has been Labor’s in the past. Basically Lib Lab work together to push the boundaries upwards and outwards, using this kind of justification. Not sure why such an argument is on an ‘alternative’ website.

    There are a few little towns that might in theory like to claw back some of their old population numbers but most of them have lost both services and water to big ag courtesy of rotten state govs. An example is Culgoa, in the Wimmera-Malley, whose water was diverted from the relatively sustainable dryland farms several years ago to service big ag in the Riverina. (A Bracks and Brumby initiative, but don’t worry, the Libs were fine with it and the Greens also seemed to fall for its sickening arguments whereby more $ per L of water should dictate where the water went – nevermind the social, ecological communities that depended on it. No, give it to pig feedlots and an oversupply of vinyards.)

    But the focus is really on towns and small cities like Ballarat and Bendigo which lack water themselves and which the politicians developer mates want to exploit for their services and resources, not caring that they stretch them to breaking point, and people have to pay more and more for less and less, and lose their gardens. The Libs, in fact, as they promote such a solution, warn us of how terrible the future is in their so-called population taskforce public forums: https://candobetter.net/node/5262 But they pretend that state governments have no control over this. See ‘Why does overcrowded Victoria still advertise for economic immigrants?’ http://www.candobetter.net/node/5268

    Better planning 20 yrs ago might have helped us absorb the mass immigration to date, but that planning was never engaged and now it is far too late to catch up. We are looking at a terrible future. Even the Libs will tell you this, but they won’t tell you that every state continues to advertise for more and more economic immigrants via websites that don’t tell the prospective immigrants that we have huge housing,environmental, vital resource, employment and infrastructure problems.

    Recent past planning did not help, was not designed to help, in the early stages of this mass immigration (especially from 2009 under Howard), mostly because the plan is really to give speculators an in on cheap land and to keep rolling that bitumen out for the toll-road speculators and those buying land next to their routes ready for the state, interstate and overseas influxes, which they cash in on in PPPs. Your leaders could care less about your welfare. They are just fine with new generations living on the black economy, doing burgs, drugs and the street. We are ruled by very nasty people who only care about how much money they can make. They seem blind to beauty and to nature, blind even to the welfare of their own children. See that excellent new book, Game of Mates.

    I have personally watched how the Mornington Peninsula, since Kennett declared it a part of greater Melbourne https://candobetter.net/node/4612, (but Bracks and Brumby went right along with it) has been savaged. Twenty years ago people tried to protect it as a biosphere and the Australian Wildlife Protection Council attempted to work with local councils and politicians to plan for wildlife corridors. But the state planners don’t want wildlife. Now we face a situation where roo fences, housing developments, new roads and freeways cut across the remaining pitiful wisp of wildlife corridors between the dwindling reserves. What the cars don’t get the hobby farmers get permission to shoot by DWELP. (DWELP not only purports to protect wildlife, it supports big ag and property developer/land production. Talk about fox in charge of the hens, or, in this case, shooters in charge of roos.) And all this havoc from which a few in the know benefit financially, is all fueled by completely unnecessary planned invited economic immigration. It has nothing to do with refugees except where the concept of refugee is exploited to confuse people about the 250,000 to 300,000 economic immigrants and the huge number of economic temporaries (who also buy houses and must resell within the year increasing turnover and shortage).

    Oh, and ‘smart cities’, built along a very fast railway. Yeah, sure. The plan being to alienate agricultural land and build the railway with the money inequitably gained from rezoning. A really bad Australian tradition. Read this or listen to this and the other vids on ‘Smart Cities’. They are the stuff of nightmares. http://www.candobetter.net/node/5233

    “Populations tend to plateau naturally as people become better educated and more prosperous. In Australia, our fertility rate (average number of children born to each woman) is below replacement level at 1.9. We are having less children and breeding later, which slows growth.” (At least you realise that living longer tempers this – not undesirable – slowing of growth).

    First, let me ask why anyone would expect or want to preserve the unnaturally sized post WW2 populations that many countries in the world now have due to a recent period of cheap oil? How are they desirable? It is these colossal populations that are pushing other species out and which are inflating the cost of every natural resource, driving water and land scarcity, driving wars, and, in Australia’s case, shutting down democracy so that we have lost in a couple of decades the right to control local environment and development. See many articles like this: http://candobetter.net/node/3396 Laws pertaining to planning are about to be totally deregulated if the Vic Gov gets its way. Only the speculators want this endless compounding population growth, but a lot of people seem to accept the MSN speculator message that we somehow have to keep these populations up. People seem to have been softened up by the erroneous conflation of refugees with planned economic immigration.

    Nothing ‘plateaus’ with mass immigration. This ‘plateauing naturally’ stuff is the demographic transition ‘theory’ of falling birth rates (based on erroneous promotion of the idea that ‘primitive’ people had stacks of children – not true -) but it does not account for immigration at all. Mass immigration, via wars or population growth programs, is what contributes to Australia and many third world countries’ population growth rates. Thus, we can use contraception and education all we want, despite our normalising our growth, the power elites are flooding the country with new customers who have no idea of the local conditions which have cued the locals to slow down their population growth. Those people will also temporarily boost consumption of land, housing, clothes, schools etc, which would otherwise stabilise.

    It is not true that populations of humans or any animal normally keep increasing. The norm is for fertility opportunities to be limited by kinship rules (humans) and instinctive incest avoidance (other species). Exceptions (like the Egyptian pharaohs or the naked mole rat exist, and bring about land and power aggregation) See Sheila Newman, Demography Territory Law: The Rules of animal and human populations. France had a so-called ‘demographic transition’ well before ‘development’. After the French revolution (1789) the population stabilised for about 100 yrs although life expectancy increased and so did marriages. They used contraception. See https://candobetter.net/node/4247 Population increased with industrialisation and war (although the French workers tried to purvey contraceptives and work against population growth, but these movements were outlawed – in Australia as well.) Africa and India carried mega biodiversity in the form of huge mammals and carnivores and forests for milennia. They could not have done this if they had been overpopulated before their disorganisation by industrial colonists. And they would not have built up any civilisations or traditions if they had all died before they were 30. There would not have been enough time for the first generation to learn enough to educate the second one. We are told such nonsense by economists via our moronic and cynical MSN about how life is ‘improving’ through industrialisation where in reality it displaces and impoverishes stable communities. There are so many reasons to question the demographic transition ‘rule’ that our leaders all seem to subscribe to without question, because it suits their agenda. And why trust them on this ‘need to grow’ bulldust? Why trust them on anything? They got us into a totally unnecessary mess and their disgusting wars are driving mass movements of population all over the world and they don’t care!

    Resist the bulldust!

  20. Robert REYNOLDS

    Pleasure Kaye! No rush.

    Please take your time.

    I look forward to receiving your reply in due course.

  21. Kaye Lee

    Whilst some new arrivals might choose to wear a burqa, I doubt the next generation would follow suit. Stop making it a point of contention. Girls raised and educated in Australia with 40 degree summers will make their own decisions. Empower the women by giving them choice.

  22. Kaye Lee

    Sheila, you raise some valid concerns and then blame them all on immigration whilst showing no connection whatsoever. Just saying it is migrants’ fault doesn’t make it so. The things that you mention seem to be more due to the rampant greed of developers, big business and unscrupulous farmers.

  23. Sheila Newman

    Just some fact checks. The temperature can reach 50 degrees in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Middle East and Indonesia are very hot, yet burquas or nicabs still worn. There has been an increase in the wearing of burquas in the Middle East, in Indonesia and in western countries over the past ? ten years, probably as a response to western warmongering in the Middle East and the great suffering and disorganisation it has caused. Whether more and more or fewer and fewer people continue to wear this kind of clothing in Australia would be influenced by how large, insular or defensive their community might or might not become over the next generation. It would be excellent if Australia were to cease to support wars in the Middle East or to promote takfiri fighters in the Middle East, because the consequence is to blow apart stable governments and leave religion as one of few organising forces. I must admit that burquas can be very convenient if you are recovering from a facelift, having a bad hair day, dissolving into middle aged fat or trying to change into a bathing suit on a crowded beach. It is sort of sad that they have been stigmatised and are clearly associated with customs that oppress women in countries where they have no choice about wearing them, cannot go out unescorted, may not drive cars or work etc. I suppose I am now going to be accused of being anti-muslim or something, but, in that case, please check our website which consistently publishes muslim authors on Syria and stands up for the Middle East at http://www.candobetter.net/syria for instance.

  24. Sheila Newman

    Kaye Lee, I have blamed nothing at all on migrants. I have talked about immigration levels and how these are being maintained in the face of all the impacts of population growth to which they contribute 60%. I have gone into detail about developers using these to benefit financially. The immigrants are not warned of the problematic situation that population growth is contributing to, whilst they are being invited. I have related problems to planning in response to the suggestion of regionalisation, Your criticism is inaccurate.

  25. Michael Taylor

    Criticism? I noted that Kaye Lee said you raised some valid points. I’d say that Kaye offered more agreement than criticism.

  26. Andrew J. Smith

    Population movement emerged from the remnants of the science of eugenics and racial hygiene; post WWII in the 70s it re-emerged as support for population control, fertility management and immigration restrictions via John Tanton and Paul Ehrlich and the Ford & Rockefeller Foundations’ ZPG Zero Population Growth (after the embarrassment of the Nazis and Kaiser Wilhelm Institute). Concurrently the Club of Rome (Rockefeller, VW & Fiat) produced ‘theories’ reliant upon ZPG’s ideas and more e.g. sustainability, limits to growth, steady-state economy etc.

    It’s about rebranding fossil fuel and automotive oligarchs’ and their businesses as ‘liberal and environmental’, and blaming non-European immigrants as unsustainable; mainstreaming nativism.

    John Tanton, an admirer of the white Australia policy and ‘passive eugenics’, had been described as ‘the architect of the modern anti-immigration movement’, especially the network of think tanks etc. which were key in supporting Trump and also Brexit (helped along in USA by what New Yorker’s Jane Mayer described as the Koch and Freedom Works ‘media assembly line’ or astro turfing)

    https://www.splcenter.org/20090201/nativist-lobby-three-faces-intolerance

  27. Robert REYNOLDS

    So Andrew, just what is it exactly that you are saying? That we should not be concerned with global population levels? That we should simply have a ‘let ‘er rip’ policy towards immigration here in Australia or the west in general?

    Quite frankly Andrew, I find your written expression to be less than fluent.

  28. Kaye Lee

    Sheila, we don’t live in the Middle East or Indonesia. If you think making a community feel defensive will contribute to more women being forced to wear the burqa then why alienate and isolate them? Your trivialising of the reasons for wearing a burqa are insensitive. I won’t be checking your website thanks Sheila. I seem to remember you doing a lengthy expose on how Martin Bryant is innocent plus my computer’s security blocks it.

    ” I have blamed nothing at all on migrants”

    “all this havoc from which a few in the know benefit financially, is all fueled by completely unnecessary planned invited economic immigration”

    And whilst we are fact checking

    “the 250,000 to 300,000 economic immigrants and the huge number of economic temporaries”

    The total permanent migration programme outcome for 2015–16 was 189,770 places

    The top three temporary visa holders category in Australia on 31 December 2016 were Special Category (subclass 444)
    visa holders (646,830) 30.9 per cent of the total – that’s Kiwis like Barnaby, Visitor visa holders (565,760) 27.1 per cent – that’s tourists who keep our tourism industry going, and Student visa holders (355,760) 17.0 per cent without whose fees our universities would be unable to continue the work they do.

  29. Sheila Newman

    Kaye Lee wrote: August 17, 2017 at 1:09 pm
    “townsvilleblog, there is credible past evidence and future modelling that shows immigration actually creates jobs and boosts participation. It gives us economies of scale. We are a wealthier nation from the contributions of migrants.

    http://migrationcouncil.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2015_EIOM.pdf

    The migration council is a vested interest organisation known for its association with big business which benefits from population growth through land speculation and cheap labour. There are many sources that show that we all lose out through population growth (of which 60% is currently through immigration), but one recent one is the Productivity Commission, quoted here https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/04/ode-to-peter-martin-immigration-extremist/ and in many other places.

    Kaye Lee wrote: “About 88 per cent of migrants are aged under 40 years, as opposed to only 54 per cent of resident Australians; almost half of newcomers are aged 20-34 years versus only one in five resident Australians. Migrants are mainly young and at their prime working age, something we need to help support our aging population.”

    FECCA itself says that “From 2011 to 2026 ethnic people over 80 will increase by 59% compared with 29% in the Australian-born population.” The rate at which Australia’s population is ageing has been accelerated by immigration. Furthermore, this effect will increase. Immigration is a major contributor to the dementing demographic, according to FECCA (Federation of Ethnic Communities). These statistics run counter to the ideology peddled by the growth lobby and its promoters should be held responsible.” See: http://www.candobetter.net/node/3295

    Kaye Lee wrote: “Australia is the sixth-largest country by geographical area – we have the room if we spread out.”

    Why do you think that some regions of the world are sparsely settled and others densely settled – by humans, plants and animals alike? It is because they are less hospitable. Are you seriously unaware that Australia has ten deserts? It is mostly desert and rangeland, inhospitable to agriculture. Australia is mostly only inhabitable on portions of the coastline, where Europeans compete with the Aboriginal population and all the other species for the most fertile earth? The Gobi desert is in China, but it has a very sparse population. Antarctica has a very big land area, but very few people, animals or plants. Why do you think that might be?

    Kaye Lee wrote: “http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-21/carvalho-why-migrants-may-be-our-greatest-economic-asset/6409042”

    The comments on the above article are far more sensible than the article itself, which is just a booster piece from the neoliberal ‘think-tank’ propaganda outfit known as the Center for Independent studies and the ABC, as a public broadcaster, should not stoop to promoting this kind of investment babble, but it does, more and more.

    Kaye Lee wrote: “As far as water is concerned, we need to do much more about reusing treated waste water and capturing storm water.”

    The governments have been unable to ‘plan’ for basic infrastructure. Why would you trust them with our precious water? What happens when most of us are living in slums outside the serviced areas? Our governments are seriously corrupt at every level. Read Game of Mates.

  30. Michael Taylor

    I seem to remember you doing a lengthy expose on how Martin Bryant is innocent …

    Ah yes. Now I remember. I thought her name sounded familiar.

  31. Michael Taylor

    And the conspiracies continue, I see.

  32. Sheila Newman

    Kaye, Your browser is probably taking you to an old website with a different IP address from ours. If you still cannot see our articles when you enter https://candobetter.net then your browser has been highjacked, probably by a pseudo free edition of Avast or AVG, which you may, if you are lucky, be able to get rid of by changing the options in your browser. Anyone can check our site by running it online site testers. Try this link which is also to an article about this problem. https://candobetter.net/node/5234

    It is, of course, silly to attack me rather than my arguments addressing the issues raised in this “Let’s talk about immigration”, by implying incorrectly that I wrote a controversial article on a website that is 11 yrs old and contains over 6000 articles by many different authors.

    However, I can understand you doing this because you don’t actually have many relevant arguments about the article, “Let’s talk about immigration” and you and Michael Taylor have an agenda to disrupt this forum and have tried to do so several times before in my experience.

    There are articles on Bryant on candobetter.net under the title ‘heresy’ indicating their controversial quality, but I would not myself put down their authors for questioning the lack of trial in the Bryant case, which most Australians are not even aware of, although articles on this have also been run by the MSN.

    I do take your point that the immigration numbers have varied slightly since 2009 but remain very high since that year and we are being prepared for higher rates by a growth lobby that has government support. As well as permanent immigration there are many temporary immigrants who convert to permanent onshore, which used not to be the case. What we can establish is that our rate of population growth is the highest in OECD countries (bar Luxembourg some years but not on our scale), immigration contributes more than natural increase. There is a good graph showing the numbers and their components here: https://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/regional-nom-2004-05-2017-18.pdf, “Figure 1-2: Components of NOM 2004–05 to 2017–18”

    Victoria’s Premier himself has told us that we have to fit in 10m people in Victoria by 2050 (i.e. about half Australia’s current population) and Tim Smith (Lib MP on the Population Taskforce) confirms this. So it is not exactly a secret that Australia is growing out of control.

  33. Michael Taylor

    and you and Michael Taylor have an agenda to disrupt this forum and have tried to do so several times before in my experience.

    Nah. Just another conspiracy theory.

    The only agenda I have is to ridicule conspiracy theorists.

  34. Sheila Newman

    Kaye Lee wrote: “The top three temporary visa holders category in Australia on 31 December 2016 were Special Category (subclass 444)
    visa holders (646,830) 30.9 per cent of the total – that’s Kiwis like Barnaby, Visitor visa holders (565,760) 27.1 per cent – that’s tourists who keep our tourism industry going, and Student visa holders (355,760) 17.0 per cent without whose fees our universities would be unable to continue the work they do.”

    The numbers, especially the growth, because they drive demand, cause a very high cost of living in Australia and make it very difficult for anything except big business (invested in property development and assets) to survive. The numbers drive road building and housing and land clearing and the loss of wildlife and green spaces. I must say the work that universities do these days is hardly defensible. They have been entirely corporatised. Game of Mates deals very well with this problem. Tourism can be a modest industry or it can be gambling casinos, which is what our government tend to emphasise to attract tourists, unfortunately.

  35. Carol Taylor

    Sheila, regarding “and you and Michael Taylor have an agenda to disrupt this forum and have tried to do so several times before in my experience.”. Michael is actually allowed to given that he is this site’s Blog Master and co-owner. Kaye Lee is our valued author, and this happens to be her topic, therefore a little difficult to accuse her of disrupting herself. 🙂

  36. Andrew J. Smith

    Rather than shoot the messenger, have you anything science or evidence based to offer?

    Dick Smith, Paul Ehrlich, Sustainable Australia, et al. do not have any expertise in environment, population or immigration science and data. However, Dr. Hans Rosling, statistician, development expert, medico and accordingly nemesis of Paul ‘buttefly expert’ Ehrlich does, and explains how most people misunderstand causes of population growth.

    http://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-population/

    While fertility rates have been declining in most of the developing world ex. Sub Saharan Africa, it’s improved prosperity, education and health care that has prolonged lives and led to cumulative effect; like Australia over 85 year olds are fastest growing demographic, any solutions? Soylent Green? No need, the baby boomer bubble will be part of the big ‘die-off’ backgrounded by global population peaking by mid century.

    I prefer science, evidence and clear thinking over sentiments, opinions and religion; Australians like elsewhere nowadays seem to defer to the latter?

  37. Sheila Newman

    Well, they sure act like trolls! I mean they have repeatedly attacked me with the untrue accusation that I wrote an article about Martin Bryant, which is also irrelevant to the arguments in question, and base. Who is the other owner of theaimn.com?

    Oh, I belatedly noticed that the article was by Kaye Lee. LOL! But her personal attacks make it seem as if she is trolling her own article.

  38. Sheila Newman

    “While fertility rates have been declining in most of the developing world ex. Sub Saharan Africa, it’s improved prosperity, education and health care that has prolonged lives and led to cumulative effect; like Australia over 85 year olds are fastest growing demographic, any solutions? Soylent Green? No need, the baby boomer bubble will be part of the big ‘die-off’ backgrounded by global population peaking by mid century.

    I prefer science, evidence and clear thinking over sentiments, opinions and religion; Australians like elsewhere nowadays seem to defer to the latter?”

    What makes you think this is true or incontrovertible science? For instance, it is based on scientifically challengable assertions that Sub Saharan Africa was always poor, uneducated, and died early.

  39. jimhaz

    I’ll argue for the 2nd group.

    Many Australians feel they possess nothing other or much more than their identity, even if they are not poor and are not really suffering deprivation. Identity is where you place yourself in the universe and is a kind of mother, father and home for the mind.

    You need to understand the majority are not like, nor will be like, this AIMN group.

    Some of you will have suffered more than they have, and found a release via becoming some form of equality warrior – but that in itself is also a strong attachment to an identity group.

    Others will simply have been blessed with high EQs via the luck of genetics and/or life experiences, such as the comfort of lasting loving relationships or experiences that lead to the development of the ability to overcome hurdles and evolve to be able to include an empathetic wider world view. People in this group also have a collective identity – the EQ elite.

    One can categorise people however they like, there would be other identity groupings to which a core emotional allegiance exists.

    Whatever the identity group, what does exist is a commonality of certain goals such as equality and a decrease in all forms of violence and real action on renewables. It is these goals that strengthen your identity strain within the collective of all Australians.

    From this identity you gain a sense of righteousness and superiority and you feel your identity emotionally. You are fulfilling the desires of your ego.

    And so it goes for all identities. There are those who do not have goals, those who have learnt to expect changes they dislike to be negative, those who struggle finding happiness within low EQ environments at the home or community level, those who lack the desire to modify their behaviour, those aligned with strict religious, those whose responsibilities mean they cannot afford the time to spend researching and making decisions, those who don’t or cannot think or reflect much at all, those who are hateful due to violence or ego madness, those who are struggling with multiple life problems, those who are authoritarian inclined, those who are selfish, those who are sadistically inclined, those struggling from housing costs, those who have had more negative associations with new migrants than others, those who fear through ignorance or contextually false shockjock misinformation…and so on.

    I would guess that a majority of those would have a stronger link to the Australian identity they grew up with, than with progressive types, and would therefore wish to maintain it. They have less scope for adaption.

    As Australia has been such a successful country, and was progressive until recently, this logically means we have had a superior culture and identity set than many others. Luck, wealth and knowledge allowed us to evolve further. If you believe in equality you cannot really dispute this.

    For me maintenance of an Australian identity is a rational viewpoint that personally I find aptly demonstrated by the original Australians.

    Notwithstanding that the harm to the originals has been so much very more intense, we are forward looking creatures, so naturally we fear what has happened to the Aboriginals identity group will slowly bit by bit happen to the identity they place their worldview within.

    Identities are pliable but the adjustment needs to be slow. Our percentage of overseas born is now so high and has been for so long that the learnt identity is severely threatened. It has spread into our equivalent of the “heartland”.

    In cities, once one could more to where they felt more comfortable. I’m sure most here have done that, even if that was to more cosmopolitan areas. Housing costs now prevent that.

    Considering that Australia is primarily now a “New Australian” country the level of racism has really been quite low. For the rapid and big European influx periods last century, my view is that the Immigration Toleration Glass was somewhat empty. They were also from mostly westernised societies.

    In the last twenty odd years though the migrant levels, combined with non-immigration such as increased 457’s, students and tourists, have been very high and from far more culturally distant countries.

    I would suggest that the Immigration Toleration Glass has filled and been overflowing for the last 10 or so years, demonstrated by the Cronulla riots/identity power clashes.

    We can see the migrant/refugee tap and it is getting closer and bigger and bigger.

    Had migration been at more moderate levels, say 70-100k per annum, perhaps Immigration Toleration Glass would not have been filled as we could have drunk from it at our own pace, like enjoying a refreshing ale, rather than having guzzle to keep up.

    To destroy an identity group by overpowering it via high migration is a form of identity mutilation, a species genocide, however to let it change via slower adaption due to much lesser immigration is form of evolution. Changes will slowly spread across a species population if they offer greater fitness, whereas if an existing population is overrun negative changes can ensue.

    Our levels of boganism may partly be due to a loss of a more stable identity, wherein uncouth and negative Australia identities are now exaggerated as a sort of natural offensive defence reaction. Perhaps Lebanese groups do the same, after all they were closely linked in some ABC comedies this century.

    A sense of declining identity could also be buried underneath other social problems such as DV.

  40. Andrew J. Smith

    Like Sustainable Australia, related anti-immigration astro turfers, intellectual racists and neo Nazis stressed about identity, culture, white genocide etc., relax and enjoy! Australia is a brown land, and becoming browner through mixing of different types, increasing diversity and thus ensuring stronger gene pool (less sunburn too); makes Australia both more ‘sustainable’ and ‘resilient’.

  41. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi Andrew,

    I have just finished watching the video featuring Dr Hans Rosling. I learnt quite a bit from that. He is able to paint a more optimistic picture than I thought might be the case. Thank you for posting the link.

    Robert

  42. Michael Taylor

    I mean they have repeatedly attacked me with the untrue accusation that I wrote an article about Martin Bryant,

    Please show me where I ever said that?

    I have never, ever said that. I call you a liar.

  43. Kaye Lee

    Sheila, you DID come here and write extensively about how Port Arthur was a conspiracy and linked to articles at your site. It is why I remember you so it is hardly a personal attack – it’s the truth. Your faux outrage is disingenuous. You may not have written the original article but you came here and tried to convince us all about the conspiracy theory. That made me doubt your credibility. As I recall, you were inviting Sean Stinson to come and write for you because you agreed with many of his conspiracy theories.

    You are also using the scatter gun approach….writing reams and reams and reams that I haven’t had time to read let alone respond to.

    “you don’t actually have many relevant arguments about the article”

    Ummmmmm……I made my arguments IN the article.

  44. Michael Taylor

    She might not be here for a while, Kaye. My guess is she’s searching through all my comments to see what I didn’t say.

  45. Kaye Lee

    Michael, I just checked. Sheila has so far written over 3000 words in her comments. The original article was less than 800 words and her first response alone was 1430 words. I might be gone for a while too if I try to read it all.

  46. Phil

    I applaud you Kaye Lee – you bring much clarity and meaning to what it means to be actively ‘Australian’

  47. Sheila Newman

    Kaye,
    I wrote a 100,000 word thesis on the history and future of population in Australia and ‘m a population scientist, author of two books on population theory, so this subject is very familiar to me and the arguments in your article are mainstream and familiar propaganda, with all due respect. I kind of expect more from an alternative site than personal attacks. I can touch type so it is easy for me to write fast. I responded to your suggestions, which were really just the same as the Liberal party population taskforce suggestions, which I’ve dealt with elsewhere. Maybe there should be a word limit here on comments and possibly a limit on diversity of arguments allowed by commenters? I don’t appreciate being insulted for my trouble in responding to your article.

  48. Sheila Newman

    Would you please show me where I ‘came here and wrote extensively about how Port Arthur was a conspiracy and linked to articles at candobetter.net.’

  49. Kaye Lee

    Thanks Phil. I sometimes feel like our politicians have given up discussing anything important. We need ideas. We need to listen to each other. I like to learn and I like to think about ways to solve problems. I certainly don’t have all the answers but talking to people who are willing to think can be helpful. It is one of the reasons I love this site – we have conversations and I learn a great deal.

  50. Sheila Newman

    Michael, No, haven’t gone searching.

  51. Michael Taylor

    I don’t appreciate being insulted …

    And I don’t appreciate being lied about.

    And I’m still waiting for you to provide the evidence to back up your claim.

  52. Sheila Newman

    “You may not have written the original article…”
    Thank you for admitting it.
    “As I recall, you were inviting Sean Stinson to come and write for you because you agreed with many of his conspiracy theories.”
    Stinson is a damned good writer. Do you and Michael attack everyone that disagrees with the mainstream as a conspiracy theorist?

  53. Michael Taylor

    Not me. I prefer to “attack” people who lie about me. And guess what? You have lied about me.

    And yes, Sean is a very good writer. I disagree with 99% of what he writes but I have never attacked him for it.

    It was me, after all, who invited him to write for The AIMN.

    I have met Sean and he’s a likeable young man.

  54. Michael Taylor

    And for the record – as far as conspiracies go – I believe the CIA killed Kennedy. I believe that there are a few unanswered questions over 9/11. I believe that aliens have visited Earth (and still are). I believe that the US is not run by a government, but a government “within” the government.

    So tell me again … where do I attack people who write about conspiracy theories.

    But as far as Port Arthur goes, that one is just weird.

    Now, I’m bored with you. If you can’t produce the evidence I asked for, I will forever think you’re a liar.

    Let me put it bluntly: you’re not welcome here.

  55. havanaliedown

    Interesting points Michael, rational minds can consider “plausibilities”. The Bryant theory is completely ridiculous. It involved the supposition that a lone shooter could not have possibly shot all those victims in so short a time. The first and only time I used a real gun was an M-16(!) on School cadet camp in the 70’s. The then 13-year old Havana scored 15/20 on the 25-yard range, on single-shot setting. It was like a toy.

    That Bryant was shooting his own weapons that he had used previously suggests that his heart wasn’t really in it and could have shot more victims had he put his mind to the task.

    Phill has military experience (so he said on Table Talk) so perhaps he could give us the benefit of his opinion about this weapon.

  56. Robert REYNOLDS

    Phil, implicit in your post is the assumption that to oppose immigration (as I certainly do at its current levels) is to be “un-Australian”. Interesting! However, you will obtain no other response from me as appeals to nationalism rarely ever resonate with me.

  57. Florence nee Fedup

    Pauline and Robert can’t have it both ways. Pauline claimed not religious but garb they wear by choice. Roberts’s claim is that they are forced to wear it.

  58. Zathras

    As for the Hanson stunt, I’m waiting to see Abbott enter parliament dressed in drag or a wedding dress as a protest about transgender people or gay marriage.

    Burqa-wise, the majority of the world’s Muslims live in Indonesia, Pakistan, India and Bangla Desh and burqas are more common in fundamentalist countries.
    People like Hanson are unable to discriminate between religion and local culture.

    Oppressed Muslim women “forced” to be Prime Ministers or Presidents –
    Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan (twice),
    Khaled Zia in Bangladesh (twice),
    Sheikh Hasina currently in Bangladesh,
    Tansu Çiller in Turkey,
    Aminata Touré in Senegal,
    Megawati Sukarnoputri in Indonesia
    Atifete Jahjaga in Kosovo currently.

    I don’t recall seeing any of these women wearing burqas but like in the West, they may be forced to wear makeup.

  59. helvityni

    Zathras, I hope Hanson followers read your post, excellent comeback to her childish stunt, it ought to shut her up…

    On the other hand she enjoys ANY attention….

  60. Robert REYNOLDS

    Florence nee Fedup, I feel that it is quite legitimate to suggest that in Australia some Muslim women are being forced to wear that hideous anachronistic, 7th century, garb, by those in their families.

    Dr Raihan Ismail is a lecturer in Middle East Politics and Islamic Studies at the Australian National University and she concedes that,

    “….. some women may be pressured into covering themselves.”

    She also has been quoted as saying,

    “There is a possibility that some husbands would tell their wives ‘please wear the niqab, I don’t want any other men to see you’ which is possessive,” she said.

    This information comes from an impeccable pro-Muslim source. I speak of course, of the ABC.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-23/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-burka-niqab-or-hijab/5761510

    While I am here, full marks to Pauline for her ‘stunt’ yesterday.

    I also liked Andrew Bolt’s article in this morning’s Herald Sun. For those who might like to read it it is behind a paywall but I find the if you google the headline together with Herald Sun and Andrew Bolt then sometimes you can access the article.

  61. Robert REYNOLDS

    Zathras really, what point are you trying to make with a comment such as,

    ” ….. but like in the West, they may be forced to wear makeup.”?

    What women in the west are, “forced to wear makeup”? And, pray tell, Zathras, what penalties are imposed on any miscreants who fail to abide by this ‘requirement’?

  62. guest

    All this talk about migration and population is worth talking about, but let us remember that migration has been going on since early humans came out of the African Rift Valley.

    Attempts to reduce population, such as the Chinese one child policy have been disastrous. Rats eat each other when too crowded. Humans bomb each other out of existence.

    As for religion and cultural difference, early Christians grew up under Roman rule and had no hope of successful uprising (to Judas’ sorrow) and developed a passive “love thy neighbour” philosophy.

    Islam developed with fear for its survival – hence more warlike and very protective of its women.

    The problem is, reading the writings is as difficult as reading the C8th phone book.

    As for Oz identity people imagine they can describe, what is it? And what does it mean to be a citizen of the world?

  63. Robert REYNOLDS

    helvityni, I would have thought that, “a childish comeback to an excellent stunt”, would better way to describe the situation.

  64. Robert REYNOLDS

    guest, although most people are unaware of the fact, we are all “citizens of the universe”. That may sound like some sort of “arty farty” nonsense but if anyone has studied the nucleogenesis of the elements (I have also taught the topic at year 12 level in chemistry) then they will know that we are all, as the late Carl Sagan said, “Children of the Stars”.

    However guest, I am not so stupid as to entertain followers of a religion who would destroy my culture, way of life and me and those like me, if given half a chance.

  65. Michael Taylor

    Robert, – barring the Seventh Day Adventists or Mormans knocking on my door – in my 62 years not one religious person has attempted to destroy my culture or my way of life. If anyone ever tries … I will ignore them.

  66. Michael Taylor

    Mind you, I am sick of arguing with Christians who believe God created the universe and everything in it, and did so in such a limited amount of time only a few thousand years ago.

    And I feel sorry for my Aboriginal friends who were raised in outback missions and had it drummed into them that even though they were not as good as white people, God still loved them anyway.

  67. Kaye Lee

    Robert, you seem to think the oppression of women is somehow alien to our culture. One woman a week is killed by a current or former partner. One in three women has experienced physical or sexual violence from someone they know. We have children suffering from eating disorders and depression because their body doesn’t match society’s expectations. We spend billions every year on the beauty industry and even undergo surgery to remove wrinkles and to get bigger breasts.

    I sometimes think wearing a burqa would be a welcome release.

    As for ” followers of a religion who would destroy my culture, way of life and me and those like me”….my Muslim electrician has been a great help to me. The Muslim boys I used to give a lift to to cricket never had a machete in tow. The Muslim kids in my maths classes were usually far more polite and co-operative than the football team.

    You are wrongly ascribing the cultural practices of other nations on Australian Muslims and you are ridiculously implying that all Muslims are just waiting to behead people. We live in Australia and your fear has no basis in reality.

  68. Robert REYNOLDS

    Mike, the Catholics have already had a go at changing the landscape here to suit their view of the world. Do not forget the political and industrial wings of the Catholic Church, the DLP and the NCC respectively.

    Now we face a new threat, which at this stage, is only moving very slowly here in Australia. However followers of the “Religion of Peace” have destroyed plenty of lives in recent decades, in countries like Iran and Afghanistan just to name two. I don’t know that the policy of ignoring them got the Iranians or Afghani’s very far.

    At home, the influence of the DLP and the NCC both needed to be strenuously fought.

  69. Kaye Lee

    ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH

    It is utterly ridiculous to compare other countries to Australia. They have different laws, different cultural practices, different political systems, different socio-economic circumstances, different welfare systems, different society completely.

    They also have different histories, very often dominated by successive invasions and war. They have different lives to us altogether.

  70. Robert REYNOLDS

    Now, Kaye I didn’t mean to upset you. I really do apologize. However sometimes reality can be very confronting.

    As I said recently, we live in an increasingly globalized world.

    Now Kaye, I must attend to a couple of lessons that I will be giving over the weekend. I want them to go as smoothly as possible. So I am going to have to grit my teeth and say that, “I fully intend to respond to both of your posts”. They absolutely cry out for responses. So I hope to get back to you later.

  71. Kaye Lee

    ” reality can be very confronting”

    Talk to me about the reality of Australian society. I am not interested in trawling through the combined atrocities of the world.

    I am not upset. I am frustrated because what you are doing is what every Islamophobe does – they talk about what happens in other countries, not about Australia.

  72. Johno

    Well said Kaye. And slightly off topic, Trump needs to move on, those statues represented oppression. Good riddance to them just like good riddance to the Australia day date (Invasion Day). Well done Melbourne.

  73. Jack

    Kaye, I like the utopian picture in the article. Everyone in the nude, not a religious garb in sight

    I’m a ‘phobe’ of all religions, not just the trendy Islamaphobe label. They have a lot of the basics in common; Contraception frowned upon. Produce as many followers as possible to ensure survival and growth. Influence/Lean on community leaders to get favourable legislation and laws.
    Ultimately religions(most, not all) want higher populations of themselves and greater emigration to where they’re not, then rinse, repeat.

    I will no doubt attract criticism for fear mongering that is outside the reality of Australia, but that reality has already come to parts of Sweden, France, etc…..

  74. Matters Not

    Some people really need to get a life. Frightened by what some women wear.

    But not only women. Look at the range of ‘frocks’ George Pell displays. Now he is truly frightening.

  75. Matters Not

    Johno re:

    statues represented oppression. Good riddance to them

    Yes, they can certainly be viewed that way, but I’m not sure that destroying same is the best way to go. Take Auschwitz as an example. A visit there is a powerful reminder of what happened and draws many visitors, including many Jews in full regalia. If in Warsaw, there is quite a small museum that was once the site of the Nazi interrogation of those involved in the Polish Resistance Movement (off the tourist track and hard to find). One of the best museums I’ve ever stumbled upon.

    In Germany, they initially made strenuous efforts to obliterate all traces of Hitler. Probably a mistake.

    Hitler like Lee are apart of history and we should not forget how things once were. perhaps putting historical objects in museums and the like, with suitable, explanations on plaques, might be the better outcome.

  76. Kaye Lee

    One of the things that made Australia’s immigration program so successful was the quality of our resettlement programs. You can’t dislocate people, plonk them in an entirely different system, and then abandon them.

    We can all work together to make Australia a welcoming, supportive country for those who choose to join us….or we can vilify innocent people for the sins of others….sins that these people have chosen to escape from.

    Of course there are some bad people. Being frightened gives them much more power than they deserve. We have a good law enforcement program that keeps ALL citizens relatively safe (ok maybe not our Indigenous people). There is nothing to be frightened of. If sections of our community are struggling, help them, don’t victimise them.

  77. Matters Not

    was the quality of our resettlement programs.

    With the emphasis on the was. We now ‘cut corners’ and it’s to the detriment to the long-term.

    When people enter a new culture, they really have no deep understanding of what the new ‘common sense’ involves. How could they. What we take for granted; what we think is the normal and natural simply isn’t the case. It’s only normal and natural for us. It’s only common sense for us. Sometimes it’s the little things that can cause conflict and bewilderment.

    Try a culture where the women stand back and allow the males to go first. And I am talking about a local one. here before the whites.

  78. Matters Not

    Seems to me that we can have a better functioning society if new members experience (roughly) a common socialisation process. We claim that we live in a secular society yet we not only allow religious schools we aid and abet their proliferation via public funding. Indeed we go further and fund teachers of religion into State schools. That’s madness.

    Seems to me that we should demand that all children, regardless of religious or ethnic background have a common socialisation through a common secular curriculum. Leave religious indoctrination to the home and certainly not within school hours. No religious schools of any kind – and that includes Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, … The lot!

  79. Kaye Lee

    I agree MN. Religious indoctrination should not be part of a school curriculum. Scripture should be replaced by citizenship and ethics classes and, dare I suggest, political studies.

  80. Johno

    Matters Not… point taken, however there are reams of books, pictures, movies, written records of the civil war to remind us and only a google away. I don’t know how memorabilia of the civil war is catered for in the US as far as museums go. They could melt the statues down and make one large statue of something to celebrate unity.

  81. Zathras

    Robert REYNOLDS,

    My remark about women being “forced” to wear makeup is about the tendency for people to try hard to adhere to cultural norms and is done for social acceptance and probably the satisfaction that comes from it – a bit like choosing to wear burqas I suppose.

    Our society seems to make women feel that they have to cover up any signs of natural ageing and supports a huge cosmetics industry in return. The punishment for not doing it is probably some sort of social consequence.

    Regardless of makeup, domestic violence against women is extremely high in our enlightened culture with one women killed every week by a partner or ex-partner and other very disturbing statistics. The can’t all be Muslim-related incidents can they?

    I find it amusing to think that Hanson sees the wearing of burqas as the oppression that comes from the removal of choice for women – but is also trying to force them NOT to wear what they choose – the other side of the same coin.

  82. Kaye Lee

    Let’s face it, Pauline Hanson is as dumb as a rock.

    I saw written about Donald Trump…

    “Far from being the saviour of the Republic, their president is politically inept, morally barren and temperamentally unfit for office.”

    Pauline is just pig ignorant.

  83. Jack

    Can you be dumb and savvy at the same time? Yesterday’s trick has probably doubled her vote in a day.

  84. helvityni

    Jack, you don’t seem to think highly of Oz voters…

  85. diannaart

    @ Jack

    Hence the expression, “dumb luck”.

    Have, unfortunately heard enough from some Australians, that Hanson’s jolly jape has plenty of support.

    One point, which is conveniently ignored, is that Hanson had no difficulties entering parliament, the security guards followed standard procedure for anyone wearing face covering and confirmed the wearer to be Hanson. BTW, “standard procedure” for security staff is for the burqa wearer to reveal her face to a female guard or officer.

    Therefore, Hanson was permitted to enter parliament, kind of defeating the point she was trying to make, but then we arrive back at dumb luck.

    Sheesh, when are our pollies going to start work? Any time before Christmas would be appreciated.

  86. Jack Straw

    Jack; NO it’s Dumb and Desperate !

  87. Jack

    Even so, a welcome distraction from the silly dual cit games

  88. Kaye Lee

    I am very confused about some people’s desire to ban the burqa. Are we trying to save women from oppression or are we scared they are terrorists? Seems to me that the bigots are contradicting themselves as they try to justify their own prejudices. Are we stopping them from being forced to wear it or forcing them to stop wearing it?

  89. Johno

    Fashions come and go. Flares, shoulder pads, skintight jeans, before we know it down the track when cc is prowling the world , the middle eastern garb could be all the rage.

  90. Matters Not

    Johno don’t forget the hairstyles. An example: Russel Fairfax – a dual international in League and Union.

    Although he was one of Easts and Rugby League’s biggest names in the mid 1970s, he was banned from Easts Leagues Club because of his long hair.

    Yep a hero on the field but with unsuitable appearance for other places. Then there was Twiggy in a mini skirt.

    Oh how we laughed.

    https://menofleague.com/2014/11/18/russell-fairfax-by-barry-ross/

  91. Kaye Lee

    I remember being at Cumberland Oval and yelling out as he was lining up for a kick, “Russell, hair number 53 is out of place” and laughing away at myself. It wasn’t just the long hair – he used to flick it back into place during the game. But he was a damn fine player and even calling out missy missy maggots, chewy on yer boot didn’t put him off.

    Ahhh the memories of silly days. Getting older has its advantages.

  92. Johno

    Classic, just too many analogies.

  93. guest

    Robert Reynolds seems to be preaching an anti-Islam sermon. He speaks of going off for a while to prepare a couple of “lessons” for delivery over the weekend. Clearly anti-Catholic, he is fundamentalist Christian, perhaps?

    Hence his reference to us all being “children of the stars” (Carl Sagan). But no reference to what that might mean in our dealings with other people. For him Muslims are clearly the enemy to be driven away – or worse.

    But I would point out that the people who really smashed up the Middle East in recent decades were children of the Enlightenment (The West), the Christian Coalition of the Willing (Bush, Howard, Blair).

    We have had Muslims in the world for some 1200 years. For some 200+ years we have had the biggest Muslim country just north of us. Only in recent years have we had some form of terrorism against us and we wonder why.

    For some 500 years the Christian West has colonialised, plundered and exploited the rest of the world and then left it to the ravages of economic exploitation by globalisation. And we wonder why we have political, economic and persecuted refugees seeking a better life and a share of the wealth enjoyed only by a small percentage of the world.

    Is that how the West, as “children of the stars”, sees the way to treat other “children of the stars”?

    Or do we see others as merely clients to be exploited for our profit? Or as converts to our (religious, political, economic, cultural) beliefs to the exclusion of all others?

    Here endeth my “lesson” for the day.

  94. Roswell

    Hilarious. Pauline Hanson says that the burqa is unsuitable for Australia’s climate. Her logic (if she has any) would be, I presume, that another reason they need to be banned is because they would be uncomfortably hot for the wearer.

    The genius is apparently unaware that they were first used in hotter climates to keep the sun off the wearer.

  95. Johno

    Only in Australia, to coin a phrase.

  96. Kaye Lee

    “Or do we see others as merely clients to be exploited for our profit? Or as converts to our (religious, political, economic, cultural) beliefs to the exclusion of all others?”

    We are all certainly more than happy to sell more and more weapons into the Middle East. All of the countries bemoaning the violence are facilitating it, us included.

    “Australian firms have secured contracts to supply military equipment to Saudi Arabia, an autocracy accused of ongoing war crimes in a conflict that has killed more than 10,000 civilians.

    Defence has approved four military exports to the kingdom in the past year and the Australian government has led the push for more.

    But the government is refusing to release details of the approved military sales, citing commercial-in-confidence rules.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australia-selling-military-equipment-to-saudi-arabia-during-brutal-yemen-conflict-20170324-gv5k7o.html

  97. Kaye Lee

    Shall we ban high heels too. They would have caused far more injuries than terrorism has in Australia not to mention excruciating pain, ongoing health problems and damage to floors..

  98. Zathras

    Who else remembers seeing the widows of European migrants on our streets during the fifties and sixties who – for the remainder of their (unmarried) life – dressed modestly and entirely in black and often with a headscarf ?

    I suppose many people thought of that gesture as being respectful rather than the result of religious oppression (the overwhelming majority of those migrants were either Orthodox Christian or Catholic).

    It’s unlikely their dead husbands were forcing them to dress that way so there’s a pretty good chance it was all down to a cultural practice.

  99. Kaye Lee

    Zathras,

    One of those black-clad Greek women was my friend’s grandmother. I would go there after school and she would always have great food ready for us. She couldn’t speak much English but she showed her love. Anna’s parents were very strict but that didn’t stop them from welcoming me into their home. Anna taught me to say Kalimera poss isse. Her grandmother would laugh at my attempts and hug me.

  100. Robert REYNOLDS

    I’ll be back guest, when time permits. Do not worry about that! And I have the guts to post using my real name. I see no need to hide behind a pseudonym.

    Obviously you have never studied any chemistry. I know that remark would confound the scientifically ignorant. I would imagine that you spend all day studying your navel.

    See you soon.

  101. Kaye Lee

    Robert,

    There are very good reasons for using pseudonyms on the internet when conversing with strangers and it makes absolutely NO difference to the conversation or exchange of ideas, Please don’t try to intimidate or bully those that choose to do so.

    Muslims are just people Robert – some good some bad. I know bad shit has been happening elsewhere. Think about how we might avoid that here and help it stop in those countries who actually DO have problems. I doubt hatred and vilification will help. Increasing foreign aid instead of arms sales might be a start.

    Also understand that other countries are different to here. Our Muslims are trying to protect us. Understand and appreciate their efforts. Work with them, not against them.

    The more we hate, the more the miniscule number of criminals have won. Why give them the power to scare you? That is how bullies succeed.

  102. ANDREW SMITH

    Agree, seems to have been the result of a long keeping an eye on demographic changes. LNP (lesser extent Labor) are now ideologically joined at the hip with the GOP in the US and Brexiteers in the UK. Clearly increasing nativist (and even Nazi) wedge issues via conservative think tanks, academia and media to influence society into quasi civil war that gridlocks parliamentary democracy hence maintains the status quo.

    If not the objective, it satisfies the top end of town or big business who despise democracy, government, policy, regulations and anyone not like them; while pretending to be patriotic, pro civil society and ethical.

  103. Matters not

    Do not worry about that! And I have the **guts to post using my real name**. I see no need to hide behind a pseudonym.

    It’s not your real name that adds or subtracts to a discussion but the power (or lack of) to any intellectual contributing arguments. (And how do we know RR is not a pseudonym? And who cares – apart from you apparently?) Seems to me RR, your next insightful contribution will be a first.

    And then I just wonder who is the navel gazing expert. But I suppose it Matters Not.

  104. guest

    Robert Reynolds, I look forward to a response from you in which you discuss chemistry with regard to my comments.

    If you are going to discuss how human bodies are made up of chemical elements forged by the stars, or that Muslims have a different chemistry from Christians, or some such nonsense, forget it.

    Irrelevant. I have studied Chemistry and I was familiar with Carl Sagan years ago.

    But I await your epistle with relish.

  105. Michael Taylor

    guest, just for the record, this site has no problem with you (or anybody else) using a pseudonym.

  106. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hello “guest”, my apologies for keeping you waiting for my reply. Some things take precedence over writing posts for this site. However, I am sure that you will find my reply well worth the wait.

    In terms of the nucleosynthesis of the elements, I would refer you to this short video. It explains things in more detail and with visuals that I cannot hope to reproduce myself in a post.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKqvjEE0wFg

    Having been a student of chemistry you will not doubt be aware the when the scientists in the video talk about “silicon burning” that they do not mean “burning” in the chemical sense. They are referring to nuclear fusion reactions in which matter is converted into energy. If you have a background in physics then you will also be aware that matter and energy are the same thing. If you use what are termed ‘natural units’, where c, which is the speed of light, is accorded a value of 1, then E=mc^2 becomes E=m and we can see that this is indeed the case. Should you doubt this then I would suggest that you watch the first two minutes of a lecture delivered by David Paganin formerly of Monash University at

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyMNZkgb_1w

    You will presumably also know that not all stars end their lives in a supernova explosion as the one does in this video. Only the largest stars end their lives in this manner. Usually this means stars that have a mass of roughly 10 times or more than the mass of our sun.

    Now guest, I was “going to discuss how human bodies are made up of chemical elements forged by the stars,… “. Why do you instruct me to “forget it?” Do you dispute this claim?

    I do not know how the chemistry of Muslims may or may not differ from that of a Christian or indeed that of an atheist like myself. You might be able to enlighten me on that score, guest. I now await your epistle equal relish.

  107. Robert REYNOLDS

    Kaye, you direct me to,

    “Talk to me about the reality of Australian society….”

    Apparently this injunction has something to do with the fact that,

    “I am not interested in trawling through the combined atrocities of the world.”

    I would ask you to reflect on the fact that by advocating, what appears to be from a reading of your article, large scale immigration (let’s face it you do not appear to put any limits on the numbers that you want to bring here) that you are, by definition, doing far more to bring the problems from other parts of the world here, than anything that I could do. Many immigrants do not leave their previous conflicts and prejudices in the old country Kaye. I can easily cite examples if you would like me to.

    When I say this Kaye I am not using it as an excuse or even a reason to stop immigration altogether. I am merely saying that we should be very careful about who is allowed into this country. If I want to stop immigration altogether then there are other more valid arguments to use.

  108. Robert REYNOLDS

    “Some people really need to get a life. Frightened by what some women wear.”

    I could not agree more with you Matter Not. I am sure that Pauline Hanson would wholeheartedly agree also!

  109. Robert REYNOLDS

    Jack, in response to your post of August 18th, can I just say that you are very close to the mark with your comments.

    I find that the observations you make in the final sentence/paragraph especially, seem quite reasonable and prescient to me. You are certainly not ‘fear-mongering’, instead, you are sounding a very sensible warning.

    If you have not already read it, then I would strongly recommend the book by Douglas Murray entitled “The Strange Death of Europe”. If you have not already read this book and you do decide to read it, then you will discover that the situation is even more dire than you first thought.

  110. Matters Not

    And if you don’t read the book then perhaps a review of same might be insightful.

    So here it is; a book for all those who found David Goodhart’s recent arguments about “white self-interest” – or preferring one’s own ethnic grouping, which he says is definitely not the same as racism – just too woolly liberal. A proper book, with footnotes and everything, about how godless Europe is dying in front of our eyes; and all because it’s too knackered and feeble to resist the barbarian hordes, welcomed in by idiots who’d gladly trade a few beheadings for some colourful ethnic restaurants. (I paraphrase, but barely.) And it probably won’t even matter, for true believers, that it is all so badly argued.

    … so badly argued . But wait there’s more.

    Before long, inevitably, we are reminded of the “prophetic foreboding” of Enoch Powell’s “rivers of blood” speech. Murray never quite spells out why it matters so terribly that people should come here from abroad – what is supposedly so awful about black and brown Londoners, including second or third generation immigrants, or indeed white people born overseas. There are token mentions of pressure on public services, and a grand assertion that the evidence suggesting immigration has economic benefits is all either wrong or fiddled by New Labour.

    More here.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/may/06/strange-death-europe-immigration-xenophobia

    Then there’s this one. https://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21723387-polemic-islam-and-migration-hits-unhappy-truths-paints-only-partial

    Yes my selection is – a selection only. But yes it will probably scare the shit of many – but only if you are so inclined. True believers and all that.

  111. Robert REYNOLDS

    Kaye, I am trying to catch up on some of the posts that I feel need a response. I am sure that I will miss some but I will do my best.

    On August 18th you suggest that I seem to be oblivious to the fact that oppression of women is not a feature of our society. I am very well aware of the fact that it is endemic. I deplore oppression of women wherever it rears its ugly head and in whatever form that that oppression might take. Do you really think that I am undisturbed by the fact that something like one woman per week is killed by a current of former partner?

    Kaye, without going into specific details I would say that I have, and have had, many more female relatives than male relatives. I have had a close relative suffer from anorexia nervosa and nearly die from it. I taught in an Anglican all girls Grammar School for 10 years on a full-time basis. I have some sort of empathy with how women think. So when I see women in the 21st century being coerced, or being persuaded that it is in their best interests to wear a head-to-to ‘bag’, I merely draw appropriate conclusions. So, as far as I am concerned,only in the plot of a Monty Python skit could the wearing of this hideous and anachronistic garb, be considered “a welcome release”.

    Yes, Kaye it sounds like your wonderful Muslim electrician is on a par with the wonderful Muslim NBN technician who came to my home and completely rectified the problems with my new NBN system that were so bad that I felt a need to complain to the Federal Communications Minister, Senator Mitch Fifield. But Kaye, I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but the threats to our way of life, to our (partial) secular society, cannot be assessed on the basis of those “lovely Muslims (or Catholics, or ……etc.) who live next door or who we meet at the cricket club. Kaye you have to look at the bigger picture. Evidently a number of people who contribute to this site have trouble in doing this.

    Oh, and by the way Kaye, before I go, let me tell you that I sincerely thanked that Muslim NBN technician after he completed the job. He also seemed to thoroughly enjoy the cup of tea and cakes and biscuits that my wife and I offered him. We also made some very pleasant conversation.

  112. Robert REYNOLDS

    Kaye, when you say,

    “Shall we ban high heels too. They would have caused far more injuries than terrorism has in Australia not to mention excruciating pain, ongoing health problems and damage to floors..”

    This is a trivializing insult to the women who are forced to wear the bag in whatever country you are talking about. You do yourself no credit by making comments of this type.

  113. diannaart

    Religion – Australia 2016
    http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mediareleasesbyReleaseDate/7E65A144540551D7CA258148000E2B85

    No religion – 30.1%

    Catholic – 22.6%

    Anglican – 13.3%

    Uniting Church – 3.7%

    Christian, (Not further defined)– 2.6%

    Islam – 2.6%

    Eastern Orthodox – 2.6%

    Buddhism – 2.5%

    Are we likely to be overtaken by a mass increase in Muslims?

    Not for many, many years, if ever, Muslims make up 2.6% from the 2016 census up from a whopping 0.4%

    Catholics which have a a great deal of influence on our government; both LNP and Labor, make up 22.6% and they are a lot more active than your average atheist.

  114. diannaart

    I am not sure what RR and Guest are on about – headaches blinding me, tend me towards the brief and succinct. Maybe the follwoing is unnecessary, if so I apologise.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_KyYFYNvpI

    About Star-stuff.

    Brian Cox presents the reason why we are all a result of a star or stars, most significantly, our own sun.

    Below is a very short video where Brian explains (without a touch of pomposity), how we can determine the elements which make our own star and the elements of nearby stars, using Spectroscopy, thus revealing the elements which make up us and everything else in our solar system.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_KyYFYNvpI

  115. Michael Taylor

    Hardly something to be fearful about is it, Dianna?

  116. Robert REYNOLDS

    Kaye, I notice a conciliatory tone in your post,

    “Robert,
    There are very good reasons for using pseudonyms on the internet when conversing with strangers and it makes absolutely NO difference to the conversation or exchange of ideas, Please don’t try to intimidate or bully those that choose to do so. It makes absolutely no difference to the discussion or exchange of ideas,
    I don’t understand what chemistry has to do with this. I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t belittle other’s contributions.
    Muslims are just people Robert – some good some bad. I know bad shit has been happening. Think about how we might stop it. I doubt hatred and vilification will help.
    Also understand that other countries are different to here. Our Muslims are trying to protect us. Help them.”

    I will respond accordingly.

    I suppose that having ‘cut my teeth’ at The Conversation, where it is compulsory to use your real name, I am used to doing this. I am aware that there are certain risks associated with using your real name in a public forum like this. However, I am sufficiently confident in my views to do this. Having said that Kaye, I hasten to add that sometimes I do make a wrong call. When that happens I will acknowledge my mistakes. I can assure you Kaye that I am very familiar with the taste of humble pie.

    The point that I was trying to make with the chemistry analogy was that all life on Earth, regardless of whether it is the smallest virus particle (biologists will argue as to whether a virion particle should even be classified as life) to the largest living organism on Earth, is based on carbon. All the carbohydrates (sugars), proteins, lipids (fats are lipids that are solids at room temperature, while oils are lipids which are liquids at room temperature) and the nucleic acids in the bodies of living organisms, are all based on carbon. All the carbon in the universe, not just on Earth was made in the cores of stars. So the basic building blocks of life in any human being are all from a similar source. So why we have to create the kind of artificial differences that we do is beyond me. To me, nationalism is an artificial construct with little, if any, intrinsic meaning. Religion is a total waste of time. It provides a good ‘cover’ for the devious and maliciously inclined to practice. It also is a crutch for those who cannot face reality. These artificially created and totally unnecessary differences are the cause of the vast majority of conflicts.

    I have, time and again, tried to make the point that I am only too well aware that the many Muslims are “just people”. But like any religious believers they have had their minds poisoned with hocus pocus and nonsensical fairy tales. The beliefs of religious people often cause them to behave in non-rational ways. And yes Kaye, I am well aware too, that those who may not subscribe to any religious belief may also behave in a likewise manner. But Kaye, I would put it to you that religious belief only exacerbates the likelihood that a non-rational person will behave in a non-rational way.

    I will try not to belittle others’ contributions. However, as we both know, the discussion can be a little lively at time. I know that you referred to Pauline Hanson as being “pig ignorant” and you describe her as being “dumb as a rock”. I would have thought that those comments were fairly ‘belittling’. So I guess it is a case of, “let he (or she) who is without sin, cast the first stone”.

    Finally Kaye, you say that

    “Our Muslims are trying to protect us. Help them.”

    Would you please be so kind to tell me how these Muslims “of ours” in Sydney are trying to protect us?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idZ7Uyq53ZY

  117. corvus boreus

    Regarding the humanitarian refugee component of immigration quotas, I think the most ethical, pragmatic and least controversial demographic distinctions that could be made would be ones conducted along the lines of the traditional gender/age discrimination/prioritization in lifeboat allocations (ie; women and children first).
    I think this holds particularly true regarding young female applicants from the more unstable/theocratic of the predominantly Islamic nations/regions, who seem to suffer greatly whilst harming few..

  118. jimhaz

    lol..I like the idea…but would than mean muslim men already here,….get their 72 virgins 🙂

  119. helvityni

    Stop ordinary immigration, let the countries that educated their people keep them at home, to benefit their own country…

    And take the equal number of asylum seekers, who have nowhere to go, many of them are also well-educated, some are journalists, architects… and I saw on the news a young Syrian boy, who looks like a promising violin player and who wants to come here. Why not let people like that in, and of course the uneducated ones are always willing to take any job and work hard….any job that is too low for the locals…

    An extra bonus for our Christian ( often in name only) politicians, they can be pleased that the many Syrians are also Christian…

    Win/win…

  120. helvityni

    jimhaz, where do you find 72 virgins these days, wishful thinking… 🙂

  121. corvus boreus

    jimhaz,
    I know you are fond of flippancy, but preventing such young lasses from becoming the spoils and chattels of militantly fundamentalist males is precisely the reason that I believe they, of all people, should be offered succor on our shores.

  122. jimhaz

    Well yes, and I do like your idea for the reasons stated, and it would lead to an improvement in relationships between Ozzies and muslims, but it does open the discrimination pandora’s box. The ALP did try and relieve some pressure by the children first concept – but that has left a lot of unwanted young males left in offshore detention for longer than should have occurred – ie males are disposable and more likely to be viewed as economic migrants. For the record, I do support offshore detention as a deterrent – but the period of such detention should not ever be more than 3 years.

  123. Robert REYNOLDS

    Matters Not, thank you for posting that link to The Economist’s review of Douglas Murray’s excellent and thought provoking (not to mention, alarming) book, “The Strange Death of Europe”. Like many, if not most of the commenters that followed that article, I remain totally unconvinced by the reviewer’s efforts to discredit Douglas Murray.

    Interestingly, the reviewer even seems compelled to admit that,

    “The author does hit on some unfortunate truths. ”

    But overall Matters Not, I prefer to read a publication and make my own mind up about its veracity rather than have others who have read it, make my mind up for me.

    No doubt there will be some who reject Douglas’s warnings.

    If this is the situation in Australia which has something like a 2.6% Muslim population,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T06Akk1f0Ss

    then what must it be like for some European countries where the percentage is much larger?

    Think about it Matters Not.

  124. corvus boreus

    jimhaz,
    I do not think that you would consider the statement that ‘fundamentalist Islam marginalises the female’ controversial.
    Nor do women feature heavily in the statistics on perpetrators of recent terrorist atrocities.
    Demographic discrimination becomes much more palatable when conducted within parameters supported by solid evidential justification, especially when covering both humanitarian and domestic security issues.

  125. Matters Not

    RR. I have thought about it. Lived among them. Visited the mosques. Listened to some Islamic scholars. And I’ve watched the ‘video’ at least until Devine made an appearance. Does Bolt appear later on? That much laughter at this time of day is not good for one’s health. Shakes head. And laughs again.

    As for you making up your own mind – I’m sure you do. Some people are so easy to scare. RR I wouldn’t waste your time. Not for the turning.

  126. Robert REYNOLDS

    diannaart, thank you for putting that link up and for giving the figures for the various religions. I have been aware of this information for some time now but it does no harm to be reminded of it.

    Those who are fond of downplaying the influence of Islam in this country frequently trot out these numbers in an effort to persuade those that can foresee problems in the future should this percentage of 2.6% be allowed to increase.

    Even at 2.6% diannaart, surely logic dictates that followers of this religion are “punching above their weight”. Followers of the proselytizing religion of Islam are often very focused and very determined. The problems are bad enough now.

    Although I do not subscribe to The Australian newspaper, I notice that Greg Sheridan, ….. at The Australian, writes that Western civilization is under threat. (He is of course talking about the threat posed by Islam). Unfortunately I cannot provide a link as there is a paywall around The Australian that is impenetrable to me. However reference is made to Greg’s view at,

    http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/australias-mono-cultural-provocateurs-and-terrorism/

    When non-Muslims hear opinions such as Greg’s being expressed it appears that they mostly seem to think of the terrorist aspect. They totally ignore what has been termed a ‘passive invasion’ that has been occurring in many parts of the world.

    There seems to be no shortage of this opinion here in Australia, (amongst our lowly 2.6% Muslim population)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T06Akk1f0Ss

    Furthermore diannaart, I have been ‘around long enough’ to know how those who genuflect to this religion think. At the moment it is a case of “Ohh, whadaya worried about? Gawd strewth, they’re only 2.6% of the population. “This and that other group” constitute a much larger percentage and they pose no problem. so wadya worried about?

    Then, should the unthinkable happen and that population increase to 5% or 10%, then the tune would change. Then it would be something along the lines of “Ohh they constitute a significant proportion of our population. We need to recognize this by granting them special dispensation to practice aspects of Sharia Law and finance, etc. We would almost inevitably hear the utterly inane moral equivalence arguments to support these claims.

    No diannaart, a stitch in time saves nine!

  127. diannaart

    Michael Taylor

    Nothing to fear at all*. In fact we can bring a little hope and help Australia’s credibility, by bringing more women and children refugees (agree with helvityni) and stopping economic migrants altogether.

    We have everything to gain from people brave enough to flee oppression and start new lives here in Australia – as a matter of fact, we have an excellent record of refugees from all around the globe making a contribution as well as settling into Australia.

    *Actually, I do fear the non-Christian Christians – too many of them in federal parliament in reversed proportion to their numbers in the population.

  128. diannaart

    @ RR

    Buddhism is increasing at a similar rate to Islam – should I be alarmed?

    BTW – No Religion at all is increasing at the highest rate of all.

  129. Robert REYNOLDS

    diannaart your recent post reminds me of why I chose to take the physical science path in life and not politics or especially the “dismal science” of economics. I am just so thankful that I made that decision.

    I even squirm when I use the terms “science” and “economics” in the same breath. Watching Brian Cox’s short video (thanks for the post) puts me into a totally different frame of mind to the one that I have when I am trying to make some progress in the political area. It really is logic and reason as opposed to emotion, prejudice and bigotry.

  130. diannaart

    @ RR

    We can all learn a lot from Prof. Brian Cox even if it is just how to present clearly and without patronisation.

  131. Robert REYNOLDS

    Sounds like you might be a little scared of Andrew Matters Not. I read his articles and watch him on the rare occasion on television. Sometimes he actually makes sense.

  132. Matters Not

    Re Bolt

    Sometimes he actually makes sense.

    Really? Never for me. Nevertheless, I now have a better understanding of how you make up your own mind. Thanks for that.

  133. corvus boreus

    Diannaart (%:30),
    Actually, from 2011-2016, after ‘no religion’ (ie, Atheist, Agnostic and IDGAF), the fastest growing religious affiliations in Australia were Hindi (up 0.6% from 1.3% to 1.9%), then Islamic (up 0.4% from 2.2% to 2.6%).
    In the last 5 years, Australian Buddhism declined (down 0..1% from 2.5% to 2.4%).

  134. diannaart

    OK, my bad. So Buddhism declined by 0.1% from 2011 to 2016. However, my point still stands; Islam is not the only religious group to have increased by a small percentage, but nowhere near “No Religion” rates.

    🙂

  135. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi diannaart,

    You make the following statement and then follow it up with a good question.

    “Buddhism is increasing at a similar rate to Islam – should I be alarmed?”

    Thank you for that excellent question diannaart (like any teacher, I always like the easy ones.)

    Let me answer it this way diannaart. Only when the Buddhists start to behave like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idZ7Uyq53ZY

    and having demonstrations like this

    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=image+behead+the+unbelievers+placards&client=firefox-b&sa=X&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0ahUKEwjB3fKs8ezVAhVHTrwKHes7C4YQsAQIMA&biw=1129&bih=776

    (I do not know about you diannaart, but I could not give ‘two hoots’ about their religion. However it seems that such an attitude could cause me to lose my head. Doesn’t that just cause you to feel even a moments unease diannaart? Unless of course, you are a Muslim yourself?)

    Then diannnarrt,

    If you want to get out of this religion you can be in some very big trouble, even if you are a Muslim in England,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjVhjbLy2qE

    I would particularly recommend this video, it is chilling to watch. Those people who are particularly concerned about womens’ rights should certainly see it.

    I could keep going but I will work on the assumption that you are starting to get my drift, diannnarrt. So I will finish here.

  136. Robert REYNOLDS

    Hi again diannaart,

    I just wanted to say that I totally agree with your comment about Brian Cox. We never stop learning. I still enjoy the experience immensely.

  137. Robert REYNOLDS

    No Matters Not, with respect I do not think you have even an inkling of how I make up my mind.

    Let me tell you how I like to try to do that in language that even you should be able to understand.

    I read and listen to all sides of the argument and then I try to distill fact from fiction and right from wrong. For instance, that is how I came to be a fervent opponent of the Vietnam War. I read material published by inter alia, the Catholic National Civic Council, the Liberal Party, the Australian Labor Party and the Communist Party.

    Nowadays I still follow the same approach. I will listen to Pauline Hanson, read The Spectator and Andrew Bolt and The New York Times, The Washington Post, Fairfax Media; and I come to this site, The Conversation and New Matilda, etc. I have an eclectic approach. I wanted to go to hear Geert Wilders when he came to Australia but it was a risk to do that because of the threat posed by so-called “left-wing” thugs.

    Please feel free to tell me how you go about making up your mind, for I am only a simple soul and I can always learn something.

  138. diannaart

    RR

    You are not my teacher.

    Nor am I yours.

    We are all students for life.

  139. Robert REYNOLDS

    “We are all students for life.”

    We certainly are, diannaart!

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