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Why Labor needs the Greens

I can hear the howls provoked by that headline already but hear me out.

History shows us that the Greens often drag Labor, kicking and screaming, to where they need to be.

Take marriage equality.

This had been a Greens policy for years but, as recently as 2012, a private members bill from a Labor backbencher got only 28% approval in the lower house with both Gillard and Swan voting against it, though I believe Shorten voted yes.

Or a federal anti-corruption watchdog.

In February 2017, at the second reading of the National Integrity Commission Bill 2013, Senator Scott Ludlam gave the following speech:

In 2010, Greens Senator Bob Brown introduced the National Integrity Commissioner Bill. In 2012 our member for Melbourne, Adam Bandt, introduced a similar bill into the House of Representatives. In 2013 Senator Christine Milne introduced a National Integrity Commission Bill. In 2015 Senator Rhiannon introduced a motion calling for a national anti-corruption body and political donations reform. I can remember sitting here on the crossbench and having that motion voted down by the Labor Party and the Liberal Party. If my memory serves me, a substantial number of crossbenchers supported the Greens and of course the major parties did not. In 2016 Senator Rhiannon reintroduced the National Integrity Commission Bill. How long is this debate going to need to run for?

Labor Senator Jacinta Collins said they were still thinking about it.

“Labor is open to the idea that a dedicated federal anticorruption body may be required but, at this stage, a case for one has not been made and it definitely has not been made through the discussions on this bill.”

Yesterday’s National Press Club Address revealed that, finally, Bill has come to the party.

Dying with dignity is another long-held Greens policy.

In August 2013, SBS reported “The Labor Party says euthanasia is a sensitive and complex issue and that members of the community have strong concerns about dying with dignity, compassion and with minimal pain. Labor won’t amend existing Commonwealth laws or seek changes to State and Territory laws at this time which state that euthanasia is illegal in Australia.”

But now the Victorian Labor government has passed the bill, similar legislation was defeated by one vote in Tasmania, South Australia and NSW, and the Queensland government is under pressure to join the debate.

The Greens have an optimistic renewable energy goal of 90% by 2030.

The former Labor government set a target of 20% by 2020.  Bill Shorten has announced a goal of 50 per cent of our electricity generated from renewable sources by 2030.

Other countries are more ambitious, like New Zealand whose goal is 90% by 2025 or Denmark who are aiming for 50% by 2020.

Asylum seekers is one area where Labor won’t budge, still licking their wounds from the Stop the Boats campaign.

But they must have a strategy for dealing with the refugees on Manus and Nauru if the Coalition fail to find them homes before the election.

And they must have a policy that reflects the obligation to provide safe haven for people fleeing war and oppression rather than demonising them for their manner of arrival.  The best way to put people smugglers out of business is to give asylum seekers ways to get here legitimately.  If we reduced the 457 visa rorting, we could accommodate a larger humanitarian intake and employ people to assist them to settle in, perhaps initially, for some, in regional communities who express a willingness and have the capacity to help.

The Greens cop a lot of flak as being job-destroying populist loonies, but it’s informative that, over time, others come to agree with what they have been proposing all along.

I do understand the bad blood that campaigning for the same cohort of votes has given rise to.  Die-hard Labor members do not want the Greens to compete for the progressive vote and resent them fielding candidates in Labor-held seats.  They also accuse them of scurrilous tactics, but I am yet to see a campaign from any party free from the mud-slinging, misrepresentation and dirty tricks that sadly now typify every election.

I don’t expect, or even want, any formal coalition but it would be useful on a policy front if Labor recognised that, in many areas, the Greens actually represent the direction in which community expectations are, or should be, moving.


300 comments

  1. Joseph Carli

    The Greens are like that house painter’s observer…contributing nothing in the way of real work, but with finger pointing accusatively : “You missed a bit”..

  2. Kaye Lee

    The Greens don’t own the paint brush and they are never going to be given access to the paint, but colour selection and quality control serve a useful purpose.

  3. Kim Waller

    For years I have been perplexed as to why Labor and the Greens do not form a progressive coalition. If they truly had the country’s best interests instead of their own at heart, and were able to sensibly compromise on their policy positions, we would be able to rid this country of the odious Liberals and Nats for ever. Obviously they are still not mature enough to even consider this, career and party politics continue to rule supreme. So disappointing.

  4. Joseph Carli

    What!..50 shades of Green?….C’mon…we all got good memories..and what I can recall of the Green’s actions when it came to the crunch was a spoiler or two in conjunction with the LNP.

  5. Zathras

    If nothing else, the Greens serve as a reminder of the conscience that the two main parties have chosen to ignore.

    Talk is cheap – especially in politics – but somebody has to remind them of the difference between right and wrong and say the things that often need to be said.

  6. Kaye Lee

    I did not mean to imply that the Greens are perfect. I have disagreed with many of their decisions where they have sacrificed action in pursuit of perfection. Or when they have agreed to bills for some sort of token gesture like a one-off payment to Landcare which only partially restored the funding cuts with no future security.

    They can only be aspirational as they will not form government. I am just saying that their aspirations are often worthwhile pursuing.

    A conscience is a good way of putting it Zathras.

  7. Joseph Carli

    Aspirations as interpreted in the public sense (as warm-fuzzy stuff) and aspirations in the political sense (as in long-term policy infrastructure) are two different beasts..the first, which is the main in the Greens media doorstops serves only to recruit new members disgruntled with a lack of short-term “hits” from Labor on the LNP….a sort of ; “Why aren’t you sinking the boot in…” reaction…and sure, I’d like to see Labor sink the boot deep into the groin of many LNP ministers…I sometimes imagine a slow-motion pictorial of such a thing happening to Barnaby and his eyes bulging just that little bit bigger as the “truth” sinks home!..But the reality is that this monumental mess and chaos of LNP economic rationalism is going to take careful and considerate action to clean up and get what we used to call “good governance” back in order…and the only way to get THAT is through a confident, secure and solidly-entrenched bureaucracy methodically enacting public policy…NOT flash-in-the-pan popularism..

  8. Joseph Carli

    But having said that, I’d still like to see a “Star Chamber” set up and a gulag in place for those IPA bastards!

  9. Miriam English

    If Labor and the LNP go low enough the Greens could well form government.
    There have been plenty of cases around the world, and even in Melbourne, of this happening.
    It won’t happen federally in Australia yet, but if the big two parties get bad enough, it will.

  10. Frank Smith

    I certainly agree with you Kaye Lee. I would like to see more “accommodation” between Labor and the Greens as splitting the progressive vote is quite damaging in our present “democratic” system. Many European democracies that have proportional representation handle this problem a lot better than the Australian Westminster or the USA Congressional systems do. We have the ridiculous situation at present where the Greens and Nats get roughly equivalent support, but the Nats are dis-proportionally represented in Parliament and in the Ministry.

  11. Kaye Lee

    I agree with you to a large degree Joseph. A Labor government is the desired outcome. But Labor have some improving to do.

    Yesterday’s announcement was a good start. Bill has also provided policy detail answering most of the questions they raised about the Green’s bill. They seem to have done the hard work to make the aspiration a reality.

    http://www.alp.org.au/national_integrity_commission

    Jacinta Collins did a lot of work towards this. She seems a quiet acheiver.

  12. Michael

    Joseph – an idea normally precedes action and is separated by a decision.

    It has always amazed me that humans suffer from idea envy (only a spur of the moment label) – no matter how good the idea is (in this case, for the citizens we represent) if it was not ours/mine it’s either no good or ignored or go the opposite – an art form perfected by Abbott and now in LNP DNA.

    Blame may also lie in the hands of those who introduced the idea and not given the opportunity of actioning it but taken up by others, that it was copied as if the idea was registered or trade marked.

    Yet both deserve our praise as a collaboration for the good of most if not all.

    A true representative in a position to act would invite the idea maker to collaborate and bring the idea into a reality – and we citizens would express our gratitude equally.

  13. Steve Laing

    I think that one of the problems is that so much of the two major “parties” (the Nats now being really just the country faction of the Libs), is that they are so focused on what the other is doing, they aren’t looking at what is going on in the rest of the world. For the Coalition this is completely the case – they are entirely reactive. Let us not forget that Marriage Equality only was dealt with because one of their own backbenchers was threatening to cross the floor, not because Turnbull thought that the time was right. Or that Snowy 2.0 was determined because the Coalitions lack of energy policy was resulting in the national market falling apart from lack of clear future direction. However in both these cases, the Coalition is hamstrung by being unable to do anything that Labor suggests, even if entirely sensible, because that would be an admission of their own colossal failure to have any tangible policies at all.

    The Greens, on the other hand, whilst “politically naive”, “idealist” etc, seem to be focused on the real world and consider politics as the means to change it.

    As I see it, the Greens see politics as a means to an end. Labor and the Coalition increasingly seem to view politics as an end in itself. But this is the problem with party politics. They party bit becomes more important than the policies bit.

  14. Kaye Lee

    Well put Michael.

    I remember some graffiti in the toilets at the pub we went to from Sydney Uni

    “Knowledge Isn’t private property”

    underneath which someone had scrawled

    “does that mean we can stop putting footnotes on our essays?”

    ….a sentiment with which I empathised at the time.

  15. Matters Not

    Re Jacinta Collins. I watched her in Senate Estimates Committees over a period of time and she is very sharp – across a number of areas. She is one of the few who really understands the history of Commonwealth funding to non-government schools and the anomalies involved. In many ways she reminds me of Senator Elizabeth Warren. Doesn’t miss a trick. (Opposed same sex marriage by the way.)

    A big test coming up for Labor is the ISDS contained in the latest version of the TPP,

    Previously the ALP has said it would not sign any trade agreement containing ISDS provisions and hopefully it sticks to that position. Hopefully too, enough of the cross benchers in our Parliament do likewise, opt to protect Australian sovereignty, and insist that TPP-11 ratification by Australia is dependent on the ISDS provision being deleted.

    Really protect our sovereignty . Can’t see the Greens playing in that ISDS ball park.

    http://johnmenadue.com/greg-wood-the-tpp-11-discarding-australias-sovereignty/

  16. Geoff Andrews

    As usual, spot on Kaye.

  17. Kaye Lee

    Steve,

    Too many politicians see winning elections as their job.

  18. kerri

    Great article Kaye Lee.
    I am always at a loss to comprehend why the ALP like the LNP shuns the Leper Party?
    There is an old saying in the business world, the best way to beat your competition is to buy them.

  19. stephengb2014

    Indeed Joseph, “a Star Chamber”.

    Meanwhile I am sorry folks but I cannot for the life of me warm to Di Natalie or Sarah Hanson Young, those two alone make me regard the Greens as a claytons party.

    This comment in spite of those silly one line things that put me firmly in the Greens sphere of political ideology.

    In my humble opinion, the Greens will never ever become a governing party, I see them as merely a waste of a political vote

  20. Möbius Ecko

    Kaye Lee at 1:06 pm

    That and destroying oppositions. Way too much time and energy goes into getting the opposition instead of governing in the first instance and being an alternative government in the second.

  21. Geoff Andrews

    Stephen,
    So if you vote Greens 1 and fill in the rest of the squares, your vote is wasted?

  22. pierre wilkinson

    DiNatale has sided too often with Malcontent for my liking and believes in too many things that I totally disagree with, but if they could stop sniping at Labor all the time then a confluence of like minded thoughts could and should occur.

  23. totaram

    I concur with pierre wilkinson. I think Di Natale is naive and tryng to put his stamp of “leadership” on the party, by doing deals with the coalition. Most of these deals mean the coalition gets its way and the Greens get nothing tangible except a vague “promise” which is never kept. Sniping at Labor is sometimes useful when there are principles at stake, but sometime it is just the “usual” retail politics.

  24. Alan Luchetti

    Labor and Greens need to stop sniping at each other because that is primacy of politics over policy when the electorate achingly wishes for primacy of policy over politics. All the kabuki insincerity involved in the internecine warfare between our anti-conservative parties is an utter turn off. It only advantages their and our common enemy, the coalition.

  25. Jai Ritter

    Rusted on labor supporters are no better than liberal supporters. You mention the greens and they can’t help themselves but start frothing at the mouth. This is why so many people are pissed off at the major parties, they try to shout down any outside views or policies because they are not their own. Even if it’s for the better.

    I always preference Labor after the greens because they are obviously closer to my views but in all honesty, we really don’t have a choice. They are the lesser evil.

    We need to stop this bullshit and just work together.

  26. JohnI

    “DiNatale has sided too often with Malcontent…”

    It’s true that, in the Senate in the last Parliament, the Greens voted more with the Government in the Di Natale/Turnbull era (28%) than in the Milne/Abbott era (8%). But – Labor voted with the Government 40-41% of the time through both eras.

    http://www.hawkerbritton.com/images/data/How%20the%20Senate%20has%20Voted%20May%202016.pdf#page=5

    Yesterday on Twitter I muted someone who opined, in ALL CAPS, that “a vote for the Greens is a vote for the LNP”. Figured it wasn’t worth the grief that would have come from pointing out that the same could be said of Labor – only more so.

  27. Chris

    ^^Good point but you don’t expect Labor to be held to any kind of standard as that though ?

    Labor is busy having working holidays in the US winning elections for Russia…. 😉

  28. Graham Parton

    Several of these writers complain that the Greens are out on their own too often, while others complain that they have agreed with the Government too often. They can’t win! I think their current policy of sticking to their principles might not deliver government but it they are at least a lot more honest than the other parties.

  29. corvus boreus

    Johnl,
    3 observations.

    1) Evidential citations of senate voting records are often given little credence in online political discussions.

    2) Twitter is predominantly used by ‘TWITS(!!!)’.

    3) For achieving longevity of success in your publishing ambitions, I recommend you might consider compiling an additional cookbook ; “Cockroach Hors D’oeuvres and Jellyfish Desserts” (A selection of nouveau-cuisine recipes, incorporating increasingly predominant terrestrial and aquatic invertebrate ingredients, adapted as realistic culinary solutions for hosting social soirees within futuristic survival situations).

  30. Sean Crawley

    It’s easy to pick on the Greens. Any political error they make feeds people’s fear that only the LNP or Labor have the experience to run the country. Yes, I’d prefer a Labor government over a LNP government anyday, but really I’d like the electorate to have the guts to vote in a serious and socially progressive party and give the underdog a fair go. They couldn’t do any worse than what we have had over the last twenty odd years.

  31. Matters Not

    Jai Ritter re:

    always preference Labor after the greens

    That’s why Labor shifts ‘left’ on the odd occasion so as to protect its progressive flank. Thus, there’s the perception that Labor is a follower rather than a leader in some (but certainly not all) areas of policy development.

    Now if the progressive side of politics could hold hands before each election (we know that if they might win government they will) perhaps they might be more successful.

  32. Miriam English

    Sean Crawley, I totally agree.

    Just one term of a Greens government would fix a lot of the problems Australia is having to deal with — not necessarily because the Greens would repair a lot of the damage (though I think they would), but because it would reset Labor and the LNP to more sane standards. It would force Labor to be more progressive, and cause the LNP to soften a lot of their worst policies and rein in their most loud-mouthed, more repellent politicians.

  33. wam

    it is easy to dismiss the green comments because they can say and do anything without upsetting their 10% funding base.
    Their women were strong, like Miriam, but threatened the new pragmatism which is why the party became the diludbransimkims.

    For this little duck Labor ran with the equality despite party disunity which eventually brought bullock to replace pratt years before dinatale hit the air waves.

    The greens wish for the status and support of the nationals and they may get there, as long as the boys keep squeaking anti-labor and are believed,

  34. Roswell

    I’m a Labor voter. Always.

    I don’t really have much time for the Greens since di Natalie took over, but secretly (well, as of now it’s no longer a secret) I’d like Labor to be more like the Greens.

    Either Labor has moved a bit to the right, or they’re afraid of being wedged.

  35. johno

    Thumbs up Kaye, keep up the excellent work.

  36. Mick Byron

    “the Greens actually represent the direction in which community expectations are, or should be, moving.”
    Why is it people assume the Greens somehow represent community expectation?
    Correct me if I’m wrong but the Greens struggle to get 8-10% of the vote so, couldn’t that be interpreted that 90+% of voters think the Greens DON’T represent community expectation.
    A case in point, Queensland State Election the Greens ran an almost exclusive anti Labor Stop Adani campaign.
    The Greens failed miserably in Qld, so on “community expectation” does that get interpreted as 90% 0f QLD voters support Adani ?
    People continue this delusion that somehow the Greens are the moral conscience but let’s be real,they are on election figures the “conscience” of 8-10%
    In Queensland didn’t Hansons circus outpoll them almost 2 to 1?

  37. Kaye Lee

    “Why is it people assume the Greens somehow represent community expectation?”

    For the reasons I wrote in the article – marriage equality, federal ICAC, euthanasia, renewable energy, humane treatment of asylum seekers

    All Greens policies that Labor have been slow/reluctant to adopt.

    They may not get the votes in a system that expects one of two parties to always win but they do put policy pressure on the major parties. How long will it take for Labor to finally abandon Adani?

    It is also interesting to note that many people who would never vote Greens, when they do that vote compass test, come out as being in the Greens camp. People like their social justice and environment policies….they just think our only choices are Liberal or Labor for government and are perhaps dubious about the Greens economic credentials because they have never been given a chance to prove them.

  38. corvus boreus

    KL,
    CSG ‘fracking’ is another issue where Greens policy more closely represents majority opinion than the policy of either major party
    .http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/fracking-fails-the-poll-test-20130402-2h55t.html
    However, on this issue, voters also have a far-right alternative, as the PHON CSG policy is more environmentally precautionary and ‘farmer friendly’ than those of either the Lib/Nats or the ALP.
    This populist stance has most likely been adopted because of the resonance of the issue in areas of central QLD,

  39. Matters Not

    In Queensland, The Greens shifted Labor’s policy re Adani as the recent election progressed. It was interesting to watch Annastacia Palaszczuk distance herself from Adani in an effort to both repel the Green vote while, at the same time, cultivate their preferences.

    For the record PHON now has one MLA and so does The Greens. The PHON MLA was elected because of his personal popularity and the mediocrity of his opponent. His membership of PHON is somewhat incidental and probably temporary.

  40. Mick Byron

    “For the record PHON now has one MLA and so does The Greens.”
    For the record
    PHON contested 61 seats polled 371,193
    The Greens contested 93 seats polled 270,263

    Antony Green Verified account @AntonyGreenABC

    At #qldvotes One Nation polled 13.7%, 9.7 in south-east and 21.4 in rest of state. Looking only at seats One Nation contested, the party polled 20.7%, 18.4% in south-east 23.1% in rest of state.

    “They haven’t done well outside of the south-east. Have a look at regional Queensland, the Greens only have 5.8 per cent.”

    @AntonyGreenABC

  41. Miriam English

    Mick Byron, you only need to speak with a smattering of people to realise how many agree with the Greens’ stand on many — or even most — things, but don’t vote for them because they’re scared of “wasting” their vote. This is why the Greens are simultaneously the popular conscience of the nation, yet poll badly. The numbers are meaningless unless you also take into account what people want.

    Many people vote for the lesser evil (Labor) simply because they are terrified of the greater evil (LNP) getting into (or retaining) power. While our election system is so badly broken that is sadly a sane way to see it. If instead, the government had to be made up of proportions of parties, rather than solely the winning party, we might see this change. It would also help to stop politicians being so divisive because they’d know they have to work with their opponents later.

  42. Trish Corry

    Matters Not “The mediocrity of their opponent” are you freaking serious? Any idea of Jimmy Pearce’s history and how well liked he is? People were saying how much they liked and respected him but were voting One Nation. This loss is one of the saddest because when everyone moans about corrupt politicians, you could not get a nicer, honest, dedicated and sincere man than Jimmy Pearce.

    You obviously have no idea about the issues in that seat. PHON won that seat because of a promise by PHON to allow them to have a shotgun they can’t have and the huge campaign by the Greens that was centred on Annastacia is corrupt, which turned people towards Hanson, cos Greens don’t rate a mention in regional QLD.

    We talk to people on the street- you don’t. So a round of applause for Greens literally running a campaign for PHON. All those Greens southerners that came up and who flooded social media have no freaking idea about the mindset of regional QLD. Or maybe they do, because targeting AP as corrupt did the job of whittling away Labor votes, which is what they wanted. They just didn’t give a stuff if those votes went to PHON.

    The Greens don’t give a stuff about us and what it would have been like under a LNP PHON Government. Not ONCE did they target that threat! Not once! There are some things worse that a mine that hasn’t even started and that’s it right there!

    The Greens don’t have an honest bone in their body. The election in QLD was absolutely disgusting and their behaviour was shameful. The amount of complaints we had about Greens was unprecedented. At my booth the Greens candidate went and stood with the LNP bloke setting up to loudly complain how nasty Labor were. You have no idea how much I wished I was younger and do quick finger phone video like my kids can.

    This article and some of the comments take a very simplistic, cherry picked blinded view to what people see as the path of progress. The bit that includes hard work to bring people along and to win Govt to do it. This article opens with a fallacy and is completely void of any real critique.

    The position that somehow the Greens are morally superior is a joke. Any party who says they will form Govt with either side has no integrity, is void of a value system, is blatantly self serving and has the moral compass of someone Stephen King could dream up.

    Imagine the country being governed by a party who can only focus on a single issue at one time and who does not recognise the conservatives as the enemy, but would stand with them?

    As John’s article pointed out the other day, sometimes things have to be conceded to win Government and then you have the power to effect change. So yeh, it certainly is the job of politicians to win elections if you want to do more than scream from the sidelines. This is a huge problem with the Greens mindset.

    Bill Shorten certainly did not need any help from the Greens at the NPC this week. Labor never has and does not need the Greens.

    Your vote for the Greens is nothing but an indirect donation to a 365 day a year anti Labor campaign. That is not morally superior in my book. Maybe people should think about that.

  43. Kaye Lee

    The fixation on winning elections is what is wrong with this country. It causes all the dirty tricks and vitriole. We should be focusing on policy and, if you do that, most people agree with the Greens as Miriam said.

    Trish, your usual belligerent dismissive response was expected. At no stage did I suggest people vote for the Greens. The point of the article was to show how Labor so often eventually come around to adopting Greens policy. For most of us, we are sick to death of progressive infighting and Labor is just as guilty, if not more so, than the Greens.

  44. jimhaz

    Not just winning elections but treating politics as a sport. They are all a combination of Lance Armstrong, Tonya Harding and Hansie Cronje (match fixing) with fake gameplay like professional wrestlers.

  45. Matters Not

    TC I had the misfortune to deal with Jim Pearce over many years. You will note he was a MLA from 1989 to 2009 (20 years – a political lifetime) and then from 2015 to 2017. He was a miner in a mining area. Endorsement meant victory. During that extensive period(s), he never went beyond the backbench. And for very good reason(s). He was mediocre at best. Jim just made up the numbers.

    .

  46. Roswell

    Too true, Kaye. It’s all about winning elections. My issue, as a Labor voter, is what policies Labor take to the election.

    I don’t want them to take a policy of offshore detention to the next election. I doubt very much – if they win government – that they’ll drop a policy they campaigned on.

    I’ve already mentioned that I don’t vote Greens, but at least they are campaigning against offshore detention, and I respect that.

  47. Mick Byron

    This Green “morality” wears a bit thin.
    I have the misfortune to occasionally work with a fully paid up Greens member of some years who is quite blatant in his desire for Jay Weatherill in South Australia to be dumped at the next election and he intends to, financially and by other means {time,online etc campaign to bring about Jays undoing.
    Now this is not about the good of South Australia or policy.
    This is simply with the belief that the Greens could form a coalition Government with the Nick Xenophon Team.
    He would not be opposing Jay on POLICY- simply because Jay has said he would not enter into any coalitions/alliances with Greens and it appears Nick has indicated an interest in a Coalition to form Government in South Australia
    Morality here appears to be directed at POWER not policy.
    p.s. He also would prefer Daniel Andrews to fall short in gaining majority Government in Victoria as he believes it may force Daniel into a deal with the Greens on minority Government
    Appartently he hasn’t read the Andrews has ruled that out and I wasn’t telling him

  48. Miriam English

    Trish, sorry, but your fanaticism is blinding you.

    One moment you say that politicians should be able to work together, but then you blast the Greens for doing exactly that, saying that they need to recognise that the conservatives are the enemy. Weirdly, you don’t notice that Labor side with the conservatives far more often than the Greens do.

    You blast the Greens for running against Labor, while Labor has stated it will never work with the Greens. What? Labor can walk over the Greens, but when the tactic is reversed suddenly the Greens are culpable?

    The fact is the Greens have led on many points and Labor have been dragged along unwillingly only when it looks like they’ll lose votes for their persistent siding with conservatives. The greens have been campaigning on an anti-corruption investigation into politics since 2010 and Labor have consistently joined with the LNP to shut down any chance of it. Now, when sufficient people are wondering aloud what Labor are covering up (we all know how astoundingly corrupt the LNP are) Labor have finally come around to allowing it to go ahead. We’ll have to watch and see if it gets muzzled so that it can’t actually do anything. After blocking it for so many years I find it hard to believe Labor has had a complete change of heart on this.

    The Banking Royal Commission was pushed by the Greens. Marriage equality was promoted by the Greens when Labor was still voting against it. Negative gearing, capital gains tax discounts and a levy on the major banks, and on and on. They want to stop Adani, end private health insurance rebates and properly fund our public health system, and end the disgusting detentions on Manus Island and Nauru.

    Trish, you say with a sneer that “there are some things worse than a mine that hasn’t even started”. You still don’t understand the true danger of Adani’s mine, or what is either corruption or incompetence in the Labor government that continues to push for the mine. We can’t limit climate change if we go ahead and build our largest coal mine ever. Adani have consistently lied about the jobs; they are not there — it would be the most automated mine in the world. Meanwhile in USA solar power already employs more people than coal, oil, and gas combined and solar is growing while coal is shrinking.

    Trish, perhaps rethink your aggressively anti-Greens venom and recognise the actual good they do. You don’t have to like the fact that they now oppose Labor (mostly because Labor opposes them), but if you don’t recognise reality you will miss the opportunities it presents.

  49. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    That is the problem with party membership in my opinion. It is all about winning elections, which means it is all about promoting or destroying individuals. That is where the focus tends to go. All parties are guilty of it to a degree.

    I used to say, if anyone can take my husband from me, then I don’t want him to stay. I feel the same about voting. The shenanigans are much more important to those trying to get individuals elected than to those of us who want good policy. Labor has good policies. They can be improved if they will listen instead of getting so god almighty defensive.

  50. PhilC

    I was an ALP member from the mid seventies until the mid nineties. As a unionist, and an environmentalist, Labor, particularly in the early to mid eighties, was a good fit with my views. Unfortunately it has morphed into something that resembles the Liberals from that period. Meanwhile the Liberals have turned from a party that did have some people with heart, and decency, into a bunch of raving fundamentalist right wing nasties.

    The idiotic short term focused jobs at any cost mantra that some of the Labor conservatives maintain is as stupid as the coalition’s support business at any cost approach. The existence of the Greens have at least forced some in the ALP to open their eyes to other ways of doing things (renewable energy, marine parks, protecting forests) that not only save our precious environment but preserve, and create, jobs. Any political party that ignores our environmental issues deserves to rot, whether it is union, or business, based. Conversely any political party, and leader, that is prepared to boldly address the challenges we have created with our criminally wanton and destructive behaviour deserves our support. No matter what it’s name is.

  51. Miriam English

    Mick Byron, I am sure there are immoral people in the Greens, though the person you speak of doesn’t sound like one. Personally, I’m enthusiastically in favor of Jay Weatherill. I hope he continues to do well. But you make the same mistake as Trish does in thinking that Labor can work against the Greens, but if the Greens do the same then they are immoral bastards. Do you not see the inconsistency in that thinking? Not to mention how self-serving it is.

    Personally, I think it is a mistake for the Greens to now focus so much on winning instead of focusing solely on the good. I say let Labor burn their bridges, but don’t stoop to their level. This focus on winning is what has poisoned the two big parties… and the corruption of big money, of course.

  52. Kaye Lee

    It is interesting that the conservatives are trying/going to remove sustainability from the education curriculum. Labor must fight this as earnestly as the Greens do. Sustainability has to be part of every bit of decision making.

  53. Roswell

    Gotta agree with you again, Kaye. Listening is the key.

    Your post is about Labor needing the Greens. Might I add that Labor also needs the LNP? Yes, we need enemies because without them we can become complacent. Enemies keep us on our toes. Criticism from our enemies can also make us grow, and criticism – if valid – can also help us improve. You never know what you’re doing wrong (or right, for that matter), if all those around you remain silent. (Yes, I admit that silence can also be a sign that you are doing things right).

    If I or you or anybody thinks Labor is doing something wrong then we should be free to let them know. Why remain silent on issues at your heart?

    We should shout our lungs dry, and hopefully somebody is listening.

    To become defensive or dismissive of constructive criticism is, in my opinion, a pathetic weekness. As is crying foul that somebody had dared criticise you.

    Some people just don’t listen.

    Listening is the key.

  54. diannaart

    Excellent work, Kaye Lee, (apologies for tardy arrival) clearly stating the many policy ideas that are (finally) being adopted by Labor (states if not federal). While we are locked into a binary system of increasingly conservative major parties (both LNP and Labor have locked step in the jump to the right), not much will change.

    That does not mean nothing can change. The Greens adopting a bit more pragmatism and Labor returning to the idea that government is actually for the good of people, not big business.

    Finally, as Kaye Lee, noted above, sustainability is the only way we can survive and continue. Sustainable means looking at what we actually have and how best to use it. The increasingly odious and tiresome game of political point scoring may well be entertainment for Canberra, but is a zero sum game – the ultimate losers being us.

  55. Kaye Lee

    I will say that some individuals are so dangerous that they must be removed. Tony Abbott as PM was one. Peter Dutton in any capacity is another. Malcolm Roberts had to go. Pauline Hanson should follow. And if the Nats had any guts/sense/genuine concern, Barnaby would not be their leader.

  56. jimhaz

    The conspiracy theorist in me, which I try not to get caught up in, thinks the LNP is setting up the structure, with Dutton’s super department and expanded military emphasis for some form of staged war.

    A war being driven by the Mammon’s (money obsessed pseudo Christians), which incidentally includes Putin. Australia, US, Russia and the UK are being lead by dictatorial types with conservative Christian values and declining memberships. Ostensibly the facade would be about the China threat in world power plays, which would be less of a threat if Trump stopped stirring them up, but its underlying secondary purpose is to force progressives to shut up for a decade or two. All the big propaganda money in conservative politics seems to be coming from Bannon type people.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/as-world-power-shifts-away-from-the-seas-australia-could-get-caught-in-the-wash-20180129-h0qazi.html

  57. Mick Byron

    Miriam,
    ” But you make the same mistake as Trish does in thinking that Labor can work against the Greens, but if the Greens do the same then they are immoral bastards.”
    No you have me wrong there and I think that is the point.
    It is trying to lump the Greens and Labor together that gets me,as the Greens have their own various constitutions rules Party guidelines etc- and good on them, but if you expect me to sit back, as with the QLD election and see the Greens mount an almost 100% attack on Labor and then as an afterthought come out on election eve issuing conditions for a minority Government-no thanks.
    To be honest I’d have prefered to see QLD Labor do a similar deal as in the past with Katter Party.
    The Greens have their Party,Labor have theirs and that is the way it needs to be.
    As Bill Shorten said once before when Di Natale was hinting at Greens getting Ministries in a future Labor Government
    ” If Rchard wants that,he better just fo join the Labor Party” or words to that effect
    The fact the Greens have had 30 years or so to establish themselves but not the ability to win is in their court.
    I’m happy to let the Greens get on with it without my commentary
    As long as they use the same venom afainst the LNP as they use against Labor
    AND
    Stop wanting Coalitions/Alliances with Labor. Enough Leaders,from Bill down have ruled that out

  58. Trish Corry

    Kaye, I was not dismissive. I clearly stated your article is based on a fallacy and has no real critique. I don’t say stuff for the fun of it. Harsh as it may sound, it’s a genuine criticism. If you want me to detail why, I can do that as well. However, it may be quite lengthy.

  59. Trish Corry

    If you want to stop the progressive infighting, I suggest you get off you high horse thinking that Labor is somehow beneath you Kaye, and they need the Greens to be moral and good, and stop writing idiotic, patronising nonsense that has zero credibility that is nothing but a shout out to your faithful commentariat who tell you how great you are, even when articles such as this are based on nothing but subjective assumption and falsehoods, written through the lens of placing the Greens on a pedestal of moral superiority. It’s barf worthy.

    An extremely inaccurate self perception that Labor needs the Greens and the Greens lead the way and drag Labor kicking and screaming to be good little children to do good by the world.

    Frankly it’s this type of rubbish and constant patronising, moral superiority and attacks on Labor that piss people off. But you keep going ahead and blaming Labor supporters who need to not only fight the LNP, but now full on onslaughts on deceitful campaigns about Labor day in day out from the Greens.

    Labor supporters are focused on keeping LNP out and the Greens supporters appear to work their damn hardest to keep Labor out, which gives us LNP. The Greens are an absolute threat to ensuring we see another term of Turnbull, as long as they win that one seat. That’s selfish politics. It certainly is not for the common good.

    But you keep going ahead and pointing the finger at those who stand up to this type of rubbish I’ve read here today.

  60. Kaye Lee

    What pisses people off Trish is Labor stalwarts’ blindness. And your nastiness does nothing to win people to the cause. Your parochial attitude is a prime example of why people do not want to join a political party.

    Perhaps, rather than attacking me, you can explain why Labor was against marriage equality and euthanasia and a national integrity commission. Perhaps you can explain their plan for the people on Manus and Nauru. When will Labor accept that what the people in a couple of towns in Queensland might want may not be in the best interests of the country.

    “Labor supporters are focused on keeping LNP out ”

    How about you instead focus on policy rather than dummy spitting.

  61. Miriam English

    Trish, for an intelligent person you post astonishingly paranoid rubbish sometimes. Where are the fallacies in Kaye’s article?

    Have the Greens have had marriage equality as policy for many years? Have Labor rejected it until very recently?

    Have the Greens not pushed for a federal anti-corruption watchdog since 2010? Did Labor side with the LNP repeatedly to block any attempt to get such a watchdog? …until yesterday.

    Is dying with dignity a long-held Greens policy? Has Labor repeatedly blocked that, until Victorian Labor passed it recently? (I believe they still block it federally.)

    Do the Greens have a renewable energy goal of 90% by 2030? Is Labor’s target 50% by 2030?

    Does Labor want to keep the gulags in Nauru and Manus? Does it not have a plan for how to fix that problem? Or are they happy to let those people just rot?

    You rage and spit flames, but in the end you just hate the Greens for “stealing” progressive votes on the occasion Labor disappoints. If Labor backs a climate destroying mine then the Greens are not evil for mobilising the vote against it — the fault lies with Labor for taking such an appalling stand. If Labor did the right thing and lived up to their rhetoric of being progressive and a people-powered party then the Greens would have no foothold at all.

    You say the Greens don’t campaign against the LNP — now who’s spouting fallacies?

    As for being on a high-horse, do you truly not see what you’re saying, and the unnecessary venom you’re using to say it?

  62. Kaye Lee

    I also don’t understand how the Greens winning seats could possibly deliver government to the LNP. They would not form a coalition with them. The Coalition couldn’t form government unless they had a majority (or sufficient support from Katters and independents) despite the split of Labor and Greens unless Labor refused to work with the Greens. I don’t believe many people who listen to the Greens would then vote for PHON.

    But that isn’t really the point of all this. It’s about getting Labor to improve. If you can’t accept criticism or listen to suggestions then what’s the point? We aren’t all going to join the party and go to National Conference. We make our contributions in different ways.

  63. Roswell

    Trish, from where I’m sitting it appears that you cannot accept criticism of Labor. Simple.

  64. corvus boreus

    On last elections little sheet I didn’t vote for either the Labor or Greens candidates, I voted for an ‘independent’ (R Oakeshott).

    This was partially because I had been impressed by Oakeshott’s conduct within the Gillard minority government.

    It was also partly because, during his vigorous rounds of direct public engagement during the election campaign, he addressed most questions in clear, consist language. When, at a public forum, I asked him about an ICAC, he stated ‘absolute support’..

    Mostly, though, I voted for Oakeshott because he was the only candidate with any realistic hope of unseating the firmly entrenched incumbent Nationals HoR rep (L Hartsuker), whose main electoral work seems to be done via shiny brochures.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2016/guide/cowp/
    .
    Unfortunately, generations of tribal politics prevailed, dooming me to another thousand days of my mailbox being stuffed with glossy pamphlets full of promo-photos of ‘Luke’ wearing a smugly stupid smirk that puts me in mind of a sloth on cocaine..

    Dunno how I’ll mark the little sheet next time round. I think I might color in the squares with a crayon.

  65. Mick Byron

    Kaye LeeFebruary 1, 2018 at 3:37 pm
    “I also don’t understand how the Greens winning seats could possibly deliver government to the LNP. They would not form a coalition with them.”

    Just recently Di Natale announced his willingness for a trist with the LNP
    At the party’s national conference, Greens leader Richard Di Natale will on Sunday outline plans to climb from a balance-of-power player to a major party that could govern in coalition with either Labor or the Liberals.
    further back
    Bob Brown wrote in his memoir Optimism {2015} that the Greens were not “pro Labor” or “anti Liberal and he considered supporting Tony Abbott to form Government in 2010” and oppose Gillard
    and then
    Richard Di Natale is on record with the infamous “The Senator said he would “never say never to forming a Coalition Government with the Liberal Party

    In Victoria the Greens delivered the Upper House to the LNP

    The five Greens MPs and the Sex Party’s Fiona Patten voted for the Coalition’s candidate, Bruce Atkinson .President of the Legislative Council,.
    A move to stifle Daniel Andrews policy agenda

    The Greens need to have a taste of power it seems and the flavour doesn’t seem to bother them

  66. corvus boreus

    In the ACT, Labor and the Greens have, both currently and historically, united to form minority government through a Parliamentary Agreement. Under the 2016 arrangement, Greens leader Rattenbury has a seat in the cabinet of the Barr Labor government in exchange for an undertaking not to move or support any vote of ‘no-confidence’. Labor.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Capital_Territory_general_election,_2016
    Similar arrangements were made in 2001, 2008 and 2012 (Labor achieved an outright majority in 2004).
    Unthinkably, as with the 2010 Gillard federal government, state members elected from both Labor and Greens parties have made mutual arrangements (ie a temporary coalition/alliance) in order to combine seats and form minority government.

    Many people make comments about the contrast between public statements of lofty principles compared with the pragmatic compromises reality often necessitates, and I think the ACT LAB/GRN ‘team’ is an illustrative case in point.

  67. Kaye Lee

    Queensland election….

    “The Greens have already announced they will put One Nation last, and the LNP second last, on their how-to-vote cards.”

    Federal election…..

    “The Labor Party’s federal election chances in Queensland have received a significant boost with confirmation the Greens would preference the party ahead of the Coalition in every lower house seat.”

    Northcote byelection….

    “Animal Justice confirmed on Friday it had agreed to direct preferences to Labor in return for more than $500,000 of taxpayer-funded spending on the micro party’s favoured causes.

    … Labor has brokered a separate deal with another minor party, the Liberal Democrats, who will also direct preferences away from the ALP’s Greens opponents. The arrangement will see ALP volunteers distribute the Liberal Democrats how-to-vote cards at polling places on Saturday. “

  68. Mick Byron

    corvus boreusFebruary 2, 2018 at 6:44 am
    Councils and Territories where they don’t cause much damage
    State and Federal a different matter as they learnt the lesson the hard way
    Labor belatedly regrets its pact with the Greens
    by national correspondent
    News Weekly, July 21, 2012

    It has taken the Labor Party almost 22 months to come to the realisation that its pact of convenience with the Greens was a catastrophic mistake.

    http://www.newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=5256

    Kaye Lee, I’ll need to respond over several replies as the Greens treachery, in QLD alone will take some space

  69. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    I think all parties are guilty of dirty deals, the Northcote byelection being a prime example. It is why I dislike party politics so much. I am far more interested in policy and I don’t really care who unveils the plaque just as long as the job gets done.

  70. Miriam English

    Mick Byron, “Greens treachery” — don’t make me laugh! When Labor makes deals you call it being realistic. When the Greens do it, you call it treachery. Wake up. The Greens aren’t owned by Labor; they are a separate party.

    Frankly, I don’t like the Machiavellian deals the different parties do purely for the sake of power, whether it is Labor, LNP, Greens, or Joe Bloggs, Independent, but to take exactly the same action and paint it as moral or immoral purely because of who does it is self-deceiving.

    The Greens might gain some measure of power by doing these deals, but they will become as corrupted as Labor… well, maybe not quite as corrupted, they’re not getting the big money Labor does, which is responsible in large part for the decay of Labor’s policies.

  71. corvus boreus

    Mick,
    So you reckon that if the ALP had a minority of seats in the HoR and the Greens held the balance of power, Labor would refuse to undertake any negotiations with the aim of forming a government?
    I …..um…. applaud your idealism.

  72. Miriam English

    Mick Byron, your reasonable-sounding words at February 1, 2018 at 1:37 pm are made hollow by your more genuine reaction above when rattling on about “Greens treachery”.

  73. Joseph Carli

    Let’s be honest..The Greens base of voting appeal are those colour-coordinated folk who frequent al-fresco cafes, sit with legs entwined poking with confected enthusiasm their fork at the Singaporean salad (W/ avocado), DO NOT use any sweetener in their “flat-whites” which they blink uncontrollably at first sip because of the bitter taste, discuss the anxieties of their three year old children or their aching, aging middle-class “too, too solid flesh”. Have a sympathetic inclination toward the idea of hanging a “Dreamcatcher” on their kitchen window but are afraid it will betray their old hippy pot-smoking youth to their socially aspirational friends who themselves are intent on NOT having THEIR friends discover THEIR old pot-smoking, lascivious student days and who secretly wish that all those troublesome poor people who did not grow up with a stable income and good education would find some sort of employment..ANYTHING!..just get a job will you!!..and stop dragging down the image of social inclusion that they see themselves as having the very best solution for…and THAT’S why they vote Green.

  74. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    I read the article you linked to…..

    “in the single greatest mistake of her prime ministership, Ms Gillard decided to make the Greens the Labor government’s junior coalition partner with a deal that included introducing a badly-constructed carbon tax that will “gift” around $11 billion in blank cheques for eco-friendly businesses to build post-carbon energy technology.

    This was in addition to the creation of the supposed “market mechanism” of putting a price on carbon designed to level the playing-field between “old” carbon industries and new low-carbon industries.

    Either Ms Gillard exhibited poor political judgment in signing the pact with the Greens or is deep down sympathetic to their ideology.

    Yet, while the Greens have used their position to extract all sorts of policy concessions from the Labor Party, from same-sex marriage to new privacy and media restriction laws, they have used their privileged position to advance their own political agenda.

    The crunch for Labor came with the parliamentary debate on asylum-seekers at which both the Coalition and Labor had finally come to the conclusion — but by different means — that the best way to stop asylum-seekers drowning at sea was to re-establish offshore processing.

    However, the Greens’ “pure” approach was to maintain that onshore processing was the only humane way to treat people seeking asylum in Australia……the Greens’ option is the one likely to result in the most deaths at sea.”

    It was Labor’s abandonment of Julia Gillard and their inability to convince even their own members let alone the wider community of the benefits of pricing carbon, not to mention their ridiculous internal war, that delivered government to Tony Abbott.

    Joseph,

    What utter tosh. Are you suggesting that only rich highly educated dilettantes give a stuff about the environment? You must never have attended a lock the gate protest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfo0hpVrtrs

  75. Joseph Carli

    ” You must never have attended a lock the gate protest.” ….

    Having cheerio’d little “Swaine” and “Daleysa” off with their father to school, Frances sat with a sigh and a sip of her Lemon and Ginger zinger tea and proceeded to tick the boxes of “my goals for the week!”

    “Recycling..yes, I filled in the local council survey ”
    “Gave a donation to “save the children fund”..I think that was an adequate amount..it doesn’t pay to be too generous..keeps them striving..”
    “Do NOT forget Wednesday’s “lock the gate” protest…must wear that new home-made, hand spun and knitted beaney I got from the Waldorf School fair..”
    “Thursday…hairdressers…”

  76. Kaye Lee

    That is as ridiculous as saying all unionists are criminal thugs, all tradies are racist butt-crack-flashing misogynists, and all Muslims are terrorists.

  77. Miriam English

    Joe, I really hope your portrayal of Greens voters was intended as sarcasm directed at those who caricature the Greens. If not, I’m surprised and disappointed.

    Greens are a wide swathe of the population, from Mum & Dad small businesses, to unemployed folk, to union workers disaffected with their old Labor, to immigrants who came here to give their kids a better future and see the Greens as the only sane way forward, retired veterans who see the corruption in the big parties destroying what they fought in wars for, to fashion-conscious yuppies who like the progressive values, to wealthy businessmen who recognise the dangers to the planet… and all other kinds of people.

    Greens voters are just concerned Australians.

  78. Joseph Carli

    ” all tradies are racist butt-crack-flashing misogynists,”….JUST THE PLUMBERS!…Just the plumbers!

    Ah!…can’t help it Miriam..It’s that f#ckin’ skivvie that di Natali insists on wearing…God, I hate skivvies!

  79. helvityni

    If Labor and the Greens do no kiss and make up soon, we’ll be having the smirking Mal yet for another term, and of course the other lovelies; Dutton, Morrison et Michaelia…

  80. Joseph Carli

    Once again you are of course correct helvi’…the sane, Scandi’ voice amidst the Anglo/ Mediteraeneo squabbling!

  81. Kaye Lee

    I agree about the black wiggle look. I sincerely wish ALL politicians would stop doing photo shoots. (I am having so many bad flashbacks….Alexander Downer, Cheryl Kernot, George Christensen….)

  82. Ricardo29

    I am a bit astonished at the fixed ness of views here, Labor good, Labor bad, Labor Ned’s improving; Greens good, Greens Bad, Greens treacherous. At least we all know LNP has to go. I can’t understand the antipathy to a supposed coalition between Labor and Greens as I agree with those who think Greens(generally) offer a more progressive leaning and thus would influence Labor for the better. Coalition governments appear to be able to work well in other places, Switzerland is governed by a four party coalition and has a very stable government. The LNP is a coalition of two relatively like-minded parties and no one seems to find that extraordinary. Personally I would like to see an acknowledgement by both ALP and Greens that they could work together with the best interests of the Australian people at heart.

  83. helvityni

    Yes Joe, the skivvies are so yesterday as are Mal’s coloured shirts with white collars, and Bill’s suits are not of best tailoring…but are we yet again going back to “Julia’s bum is too big” talk…

    I hope that Hewson ( the one Liberal I have time for) wasn’t serious when he said : Malcolm looks and acts more prime-ministerial…

    Finland had the dowdy looking Halonen for two terms, the NZ was happy with Helen and Germany has been ‘zufrieden’ with Angela for many terms… Let’s grow up, Aussies!

  84. Roswell

    Looks to me as though Joe is just playing with you all. I could be wrong, but knowing Joe, I reckon it’s his way of having a bit of fun.

    However, Joe, those people you generalise about – at least they know what they stand for. Unlike the idiotic 49% of the nation who’ll believe in what the Libs tell them to believe in.

  85. Joseph Carli

    Ohhhh!..That George Christensen pic with the whip!…sweet Jeesus!…I keep going back to that moment in the “Deliverance” film where the hillbilly man-rapist slaps the fat buttocks of his victim demanding he squeal like a piggy…urrrrgh!!

  86. Kaye Lee

    I agree Ricardo. The competition for the same cohort of voters has led the progressives to see each other as more immediate enemies. They waste time fighting against each other in elections rather than collaborating to advance progressive policy. Labor like to blame Gillard’s agreement with the Greens for their downfall. I disagree. The Gillard government, whilst making some mistakes, did a wonderful job of getting things started which could have been fine-tuned as they went. But Labor got cold feet. They weren’t beaten by a superior opponent or better policies.
    They capitulated.

  87. roma guerin

    I am listening Kaye. There’s a few here today who are not. I am a generation or two older than the caricatures Joseph Carli describes, and personally I find his remarks insulting. I will not justify my belief in Green policies with a rant against Labor. I don’t have the energy. I agree that Greens do themselves no favours by targetting Labor candidates at elections. I will be watching the by-election with interest now that Feeney has resigned.

  88. Joseph Carli

    Seriously though..you have top admit that The Greens only have to propose policy that overlaps from the far-left into the left..to steal votes from Labor, as they will NEVER have to fulfill those policies..But Labor has to propose policy that overlaps from left to centre-right to gain votes from the swinging centre to get enough to govern in their own right..

  89. Shutterbug

    My meagre thought, for what they are worth, is for the ALP Left to spin off the Right Faction and the Left merge with The Greens.

    This will open up the ‘Liberal Lites’ in the ALP Right to become what they are secretly wanting to be, the Upper Class Twits they so desire to emulate.
    Then the ALP Left can meld with a more like-minded group in the Greens and go from there.

    With the Liberal Lites infecting the ALP, they will ALWAYS be at loggerheads with the supposed ALP core base.

  90. Kaye Lee

    The thing is Joseph, that those policies which the Greens kind of force on Labor, like the ones I mentioned in the article, are where we should be headed. The article that Mick linked to, for example, shows it was the Greens who made Labor move towards marriage equality and they didn’t like it.

    I would like there to be no need for a Greens Party. I would like Labor to be fighting for the environment and social justice just as hard as the Greens are.

    Another area where I think the Greens lead is on calling out the crap on national security – something Labor is far too scared to do.

    “Real security rests on cooperation, fair economic and social development, and respect for human rights, rather than on military capability.”

    https://greens.org.au/policies/peace-security

  91. Kaye Lee

    What’s more, Labor should be trying to attract swinging voters by convincing them of the superiority of their policies….not by drifting to the right or attacking the left. I hope they will do this.

    And I really hope Bill will avoid making unnecessary proclamations like “I will not lead a minority government” or “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead” or, the Coalition version, “No cuts to education, no cuts to health, no change to pensions, no change to the GST and no cuts to the ABC or SBS.”

  92. Joseph Carli

    The swinging voter is narcissist at best…duplicitous at worst..they are only into self-interest and have to be …not convinced…they like to tease with the blackmail of their vote..they have to be “lured”, like one uses a piece of bread to lure a suspicious creature to feed from your hand…

  93. Kaye Lee

    So on the right we have free market tax-avoiding capitalist ideologues, on the left we have job-destroying idealistic socialists, and in the middle we have greedy selfish narcissists.

    I think your stereotyping blinds you to the mix of people who are just decent caring people who want what’s best for the country. There are a lot of people who genuinely care about others and actively help in whatever capacity they can.

  94. Adrianne Haddow

    I have been reading this thread, with increasing frustration over the last few days.
    I would be amused at the oft-repeated, anti-green sentiments on display, posted by Labor stalwarts, if I hadn’t experienced a ‘ho- hum here they go again. There must be an election brewing’ moment.

    All the BS about the Green’s treachery at ‘stealing’ Labor votes. Last time I looked this country was a democracy, a faltering, lurching toward fascism democracy, but still a democracy, where one person’s vote was his own, not belonging to one of two dysfunctional major parties with their hands on the money of corporate donors.

    As Roma Geurin has posted, I was disappointed by the caricature written by Joseph Carli.
    Green voters come in all shapes and sizes, ages and life experiences. Just as Labor voters can’t be characterised by the blue singlet and industry dirt ingrained in their hands, so all Greens can’t be labelled as latte sipping hipsters. Most people vote according to self interest or life philosophy, party politics and party allegiance doesn’t come into it.

    The Greens have sent a recent alert and petition regarding the federal regulator giving permissions for gas and oil seismic exploration drilling by Asset Energy off the Newcastle and Central Coast, in the migration path of whales, and productive local fishing grounds. Seems to have missed the notice of the MSM and the NSW Labor party.

    It may be of interest to you Kaye Lee.

    http://abetternsw.good.do/nogasdrillingoffnewcastle/

  95. Joseph Carli

    ” I think your stereotyping blinds you to the mix of people who are just decent caring people who want what’s best for the country. “….and yet, strangely, according to your assessment of the “mix of decent people”..here we are with a fascist leaning govt’ voted in by a majority that does not, it seems, share your assessment..perhaps more a “democracy” , as Ms. Haddow reiterates ;”…of fascism”..

    Can I declare that the majority of voters in the New England electorate degenerate?…yes I can..on account they returned that disgusting person with an increased majority..and if that electorate can be called degenerate, what do we say about the rest of the nation which has returned a majority to that very fascist party time and time again for no more than policies of pork-barrelling?

    So where are these “decent caring people” if they cannot make up a majority to elect a “decent caring government”? ..perhaps in your dreams..?

    So yes..I have to admit that a certain amount of narcissism and opportunism does rule the hand that ticks the paper.

  96. Kaye Lee

    Thanks for that link Adrianne. We have previously had the navy blasting in Broken Bay. My son contacted everyone about that including the navy and the media. We haven’t seen them since so I hope his persistence had some effect. He will be furious about this. I will get him to post it to the various fishing groups to whom he belongs and to the tourism operators. I will also be contacting Adam Crouch and Lucy Wicks.

  97. helvityni

    People have some funny reasons; my friend from Manchester always votes Liberal. That makes her feel more successful, she feels she has gone up socially. Well, she’s pretty poor and comes from a class conscious country, England.

  98. Kaye Lee

    I blame the media to a large degree for Labor’s loss in 2013 but I am still really angry with the Labor Party for allowing their internal power struggle to dominate the news. I am angry that they did not stand firm in explaining carbon pricing. I am angry that they made silly deadlines for getting the budget back to surplus instead of pointing out how their investment had kept Australia working.

    You may be right Joseph, but I think it is more the failure to expose the misinformation that has allowed the Coalition to be elected.

  99. Joseph Carli

    “… but I think it is more the failure to expose the misinformation…” and on THAT we are in agreeance!

  100. corvus boreus

    Kaye Lee,
    I tend to make my appointment a little bit more specific over blame within ‘the media’.

    ABC, SBS, Fairfax, Guardian, Inde or other, all may have muted or muddled Labor’s campaign message to varying degrees.

    However, Newscorp was the only agency with headline banners shrieking ‘AUSTRALIA NEEDS TONY!’ and front page photo-shop images depicting senior Labor figures wearing Nazi uniforms.
    That is not report of news, that is propaganda.
    In Australia, US and UK Rupert and his malignant minions misinform, corrupt and debase sensible policy and decent society..

    Then again, I could be wrong. According to Trump, Fox & friends are the only ‘MSM’ that isn’t ‘FAKE!’.

  101. Kaye Lee

    cb,

    I vividly remember the Fairfax editorial headline JUNE 22 2013

    “For the sake of the nation, Ms Gillard should stand aside”

    “Voters have been so distracted by internal and external speculation about Labor’s leadership that efforts by the Prime Minister and her ministers to enunciate a narrative, a strategic vision, for the nation’s future beyond this year have failed. If our national political discourse continues in this way, the outcome is writ large: Labor would face a devastating loss in September.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/editorial/for-the-sake-of-the-nation-ms-gillard-should-stand-aside-20130621-2oo6e.html

  102. jimhaz

    The Greens are only relevant because the ALP is not doing that part of its job, namely to look after workers. This includes limiting immigration.

    A lot of the Greens social stuff is fluff that people have had enough of, such as the Change the Date biz. in NSW Foley’s attempt to capture some of the fluffheads, ie the Harbour bridge flag, is obvious.

  103. jimhaz

    The left has cut their own neck by being progressive when they should be protective. idiots all.

  104. johno

    jimhaz, your pillow would be so uncomfortable without the fluff.

  105. Adrianne Haddow

    “A lot of the Greens social stuff is fluff that people have had enough of, such as the Change the Date ”
    I’m not sure the majority of disenfranchised, indigenous Australians or the 60,000+ marchers (in Melbourne alone) on white Australia Day would agree with your statement, Jimhaz.

  106. jimhaz

    Dumb uni students and bleeding hearts who work purely on emotion thus are TREND FOLLOWERS without rationality.

    They’ll change there mind as they age and the costs of whatever it they think they want starts to bite.

  107. Kaye Lee

    There is a very rational reason for wanting to change the date of Australia Day and it wouldn’t cost anything. All it would take is for grumpy old white people to stop resisting change for no better reason other than “why should we”. The reason why we should change it is obvious to all except the bloody minded

  108. jimhaz

    It is just a power play. It is greed actually. The underlying purpose of the radical group that started pushing for this this century, is to obtain money via a false sense of entitlement. They want to ticket clip for land and resources.

    It is driven by EX-aboriginals who are not coping with the western life that they would never have been able to counter.

    If blood meant anything, then the lives of whites would still be ruled by Kings and Queens.

    People think suffering can be cured by giving them entitlement. it will never work. Entitlement is one of competence, not blood based merit.

  109. Kaye Lee

    Changing Australia Day has nothing to do with money and everything to do with recognition of the suffering that was inflicted on the indigenous people of Australia. Why would they want to celebrate dispossession? Why would they want to celebrate the day that marked the beginning of the massacre of their ancestors? Why do we want to celebrate the day when wretched prisoners from England began their exile?

    As we have seen from the child sex abuse RC, recognition of suffering and telling the true story actually achieves a great deal.

  110. Joseph Carli

    ” Entitlement is one of competence, not blood based merit.”…I’m sure you’re not including Alex’ Downer in this category…are you?

  111. Kaye Lee

    I would also point out that our head of state IS a queen.

  112. corvus boreus

    Keye Lee (2:26),
    I’ll grant you that Fairfax editorial piece offered some piss-poor political advice, especially given hindsight.
    However, I find much less outrage in a mid-paper editorial recommending a ‘tactical’ leadership change a few months before polling than I do in, say, front page headlines screaming “KICK THIS MOB OUT!’ a couple of days before an election.
    As I said, blame laid in specific apportionment according to relative scale of transgression.

  113. JohnI

    Now look what those perfidious Greens have done! They’ve forced Labor to put up Ged Kearney as their candidate for Batman!

    If it was a safe Labor seat, they would have chosen some factional hack or Shoppies’ Union knuckle-dragger. But because they have an actual contest on their hands, they’ve gone straight to the top shelf.

    And I couldn’t be happier. May the best woman win!

  114. corvus boreus

    Johnl,
    Nearby Melbourne Ports is another electorate where the ALP should probably be pondering their choices of candidacy.

    In 1998 Michael Danby, Labor’s appointed successor after sitting ALP member Clyde Holding retired, retained the seat of Melbourne Ports with a marginally reduced primary vote of 44.1%.(55.83% by 2PP).

    In 2001 Danby retained his seat with 39.36% primary (55.69% by 2PP).

    By 2013 ALP primary vote in Melbourne Ports had diminished to 31.67% (the LIB candidate scored a 41.05% primary) and Danby only retained the seat through preferences (53.56% by 2PP).

    Last time around, 2/7/2016, Danby hit 27% primary, and scraped in with a 51.38%.2PP margin.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_results_for_the_Division_of_Melbourne_Ports#Elections_in_the_1990s

    Since then Michael Danby has been self-slapped by a series of stuff-ups that have somewhat tarnished his image, including using public monies for family holidays, further purse-dipping to fund attack ads in a sectarian rag slagging off at an ABC journo, and taking sick-leave from his parliamentary duties in order to attend a conservative conference in Israel. .
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/labor-mp-michael-danby-charged-taxpayers-almost-15000-for-queensland-trips-with-his-wife-20180108-h0ffdu.html

    Given the combination of demonstrated electoral trends and recent events, I do not have much realistic confidence in the sustainability of Michael Danby’s position as the ALP’s seated HoR member for the electoral division of Melbourne Ports.

    Meanwhile, back in the Batman by-election, the Greens may yet self-sabotage their ambitions to claim the seat;
    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/greens-squabble-over-victorian-seat-of-batman-as-labors-david-feeney-departs-20180201-h0rx5i.html
    Concurrently, the Liberals are contemplating their choices.
    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/batman-byelection-liberals-to-test-greens-candidates-background-for-anti-semitic-links-20180201-h0sck0.html

  115. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Melbourne Ports and Batman will become Greens seats. That makes THREE in the HoR.

    What are you waiting for, Labor? You need the Greens for all the reasons explained by the positive contributors above.

    Looking forward to celebrating the defeat of the LNP; defeat of Neoliberalism; and the Return of Democratic Socialism!

    Go The ALLiance!

  116. Mick Byron

    Queen Victoria
    ‏ @Vic_Rollison
    11h11 hours ago

    Queen Victoria Retweeted William Bowe Poll Bludger

    As middle class professionals took over formally working class Batman, they no longer voted for health, education and industrial relations, preferring the privilege of identity politics.
    NOT a safe Labor seat, now borderline Latte sippers
    Don’t think they’d know who Ged Kearney was, not the right social set

  117. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    They always vote Health, Education, Standards of Living, Renewable Energy, Environment.

  118. Mick Byron

    Ms, Meyer.
    In the very unlikely event the Greens got 3 seats it would make not a skerrick of difference in a Labor Majority Government
    3,Greens, 3 Hansons, 3 Indies or any combination of them would just be a messy crossbench

  119. corvus boreus

    Mick Byron,
    Cheers for posting QV’s re-tweet.
    Got any memes to match?

  120. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Three seats, four seats, five seats, six…

    Go The ALLiance!

  121. corvus boreus

    I agree with Mick’s comment that, should the ALP win a clear HoR majority in their own right, the possible loss of 2 seats to a minor party would make little difference to overall outcomes.

    However, should the electoral result be a hung parliament, this would force federal Labor to make 1 of 2 stark choices;
    1) Negotiate with the Greens (and/or other minors/indis) in order to form a government.
    2) Refuse to negotiate and forgo the opportunity to form a government, which would most likely result in either a coalition government or the costly uncertainty of a total re-ballot.

  122. Miriam English

    Labor insists it won’t negotiate with the Greens and doesn’t need them… until they do. Then they “proudly” negotiate and pause in accusing them of treachery for pushing Labor to improve.

    Political theatre at its most absurd.

  123. Joseph Carli

    Ms. English.. ; “Justice, humanity, or political wisdom, are qualities that are too little acquainted with in themselves, to appreciate them in others. Valor will acquire their esteem, and liberality will purchase their suffrage; but the first of these merits is often lodged in the most savage breasts; the latter can only exert itself at the expense of the public; and both may be turned against the possessor of the throne, by the ambition of a daring rival.”

    ― Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

    There is only ONE location that The Greens can secure an increase of power and THAT is at the expense of Labor..and by doing that, knowingly and deliberately weaken worker’s majority benefits…while at the same time having very little or NO influence with that minuscule increase of power except to undermine the broader political designs of the Left…

  124. Kaye Lee

    It is ridiculous to say you will not negotiate with the Greens. You HAVE to work with whoever is elected. It is not a choice thing. Dem’s da rules. Any leader who takes the pompous stance of saying I will not lead a minority government is purely playing political games to threaten that, unless they get your first preference vote, they will, in a fit of pique, hand their ideological opponents the reins of government and blame you for it.

    How can any organisation operate successfully when its members whole raison d’etre is to not work with others in the organisation?

    We really need to change the system to a multi-party executive if we ever want productive collaboration.

  125. Mick Byron

    Elections have become pretty stock standard State,Federal…

    The LNP go out and try to to win as many seats from all Parties to get enough to form Government

    The ALP go out and try to to win as many seats from all Parties to get enough to form Government

    The Greens target a handful of what some term “safe Labor seats” inner city ,Metroplitan to get …..

    All the while the Greens see Jackie Trad, Albo, Tanya Plibersek Ged Kearney….. as the “target”

    and not Morrison ,Pyne, Dutton, Turnbull and the like, I truly don’t know what their real motive is and after 30 years of the same tactic I’m not sure if they themselves do either

  126. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    The Greens can reach the thousands of dissatisfied constituents, who don’t see either major parties caring about issues that they care about.

    Obviously those issues include any and all Environmental issues, Renewable Energy industries as total replacements for filthy fossil fuel industries, Progressive Policies that don’t prioritise business models as their raison d’etre, Daring to Think beyond the square.

    I totally agree with Kaye’s comment just made: “We really need to change the system to a multi-party executive if we ever want productive collaboration.”

  127. helvityni

    “All the while the Greens see Jackie Trad, Albo, Tanya Plibersek Ged Kearney….. as the “target”

    and not Morrison ,Pyne, Dutton, Turnbull and the like, I truly don’t know what their real motive is and after 30 years of the same tactic I’m not sure if they themselves do either”

    Mick Byron, all that baffles me too. I have to admit that I still don’t understand Oz politics…

  128. Mick Byron

    Miriam EnglishFebruary 3, 2018 at 9:46 am

    “Labor insists it won’t negotiate with the Greens and doesn’t need them… until they do. Then they “proudly” negotiate”

    No, not quite , Jay Weatherill and Daniel Andrews made it clear prior to their States elections “No negotiations”
    Shorten in 2016 and Annastacia P recently could not have been clearer and from what I understand from Branch meetings Shortens position will carry forward to the next Federal Election
    Just a reminder of their positions previously

    “But Mr Shorten, who is campaigning in far-north Queensland, said Mr Bandt was “dreaming”.
    “Labor will fight this election to form its own government and to form a government in our own right,” he told ABC North Queensland.
    “Labor will not be going into coalition with any party.”
    Mr Shorten accused the Greens of only targeting Labor-held seats
    Labor’s declaration appears to categorically rule out any post-election negotiation with the Greens to form a government even if the ALP were to win more seats than the Coalition, but fall short of a majority. .

    He then went on to do the Media stunt “The Pledge” which he and Turnbull signed

    November 2017
    Annastacia Palaszczuk has said she won’t hold discussions with any crossbenchers if she fails to get enough seats to govern on her own in this Saturday’s election
    The Premier’s election line is that voters can either elect a majority Labor government or a “chaotic” LNP minority government.
    To underline the all-or-nothing strategy, Ms Palaszczuk has vowed to not accept the support of One Nation, the Greens, or the Katter’s Australian Party.
    She said she would rather go into opposition than minority government.
    “Every single one of my team, every single one of my candidates accept that,” Ms Palaszczuk said.

  129. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    I would like to see the Greens campaigning hard in farming communities about protecting their livelihood and in areas that rely on tourism about protecting the natural environment. Barnaby doesn’t have a clue about climate change, water management, sustainable farming, land clearing, pest eradication – actually anything at all that is of importance to farmers.

    Having said that, without some agreement like the Libs and Nats have got about not competing against each other in certain seats, it is inevitable that the Greens will be competing for seats with a high progressive vote. And those seats will be held by impressive Labor members unfortunately.

    I suppose it would be too much to ask the two parties to think strategically. Labor just hope the Greens will die a natural death but that hasn’t happened in three decades.

    As Miriam pointed out before, the Greens wouldn’t exist if Labor didn’t leave room for them with things like those I mentioned in the article.

  130. corvus boreus

    From what I can see, the Greens run candidates for most lower house seats (to raise funds and maintain/increase the ground level profile of their party brand).
    From there, they then seem to direct majority resource towards seats where they think they have a realistic chance of winning.
    In other words; election campaigning by a political party.

  131. Mick Byron

    Miriam ,just the reminder of Daniel Andrews as well
    LABOR has rejected a Greens proposal to form an alliance ahead of this month’s state election

    I have directed the state secretary to reject that in full, there will be no coalitions, no deals.”

    Mr Andrews also ruled out doing deals with the Greens to form a government after the election.

    “There will be absolutely no deals offered or done with the Green political party and that is my commitment.

    “If the Green political party have representation in the parliament there will be no deals offered by Labor and there will be no deals done.

    “Strong, stable, majority government that puts people first, a Labor government, that’s what our state needs.”

  132. Mick Byron

    corvus boreusFebruary 3, 2018 at 11:04 am
    From my understanding the Greens spent 5 times as much campaigning against Albo as they did against Turnbull or Morrison
    From New Matilda

    “NSW Greens budgeted $250,000 to get as close as possible to toppling powerhouse Labor left MP Anthony Albanese, a man with a reputation for brawling with Tories who showed during the campaign he’s happy to throw a right hook as well. That figure is up from the $80,000 allocated to Grayndler in 2013, and is $60,000 more than was allotted to take on Tanya Plibersek in Sydney, according to figures seen by New Matilda.

    On that return, the Greens saw both their primary and two party preferred vote in Grayndler go backwards, easing in the wrong direction by less than one per cent. Jim Casey, a charismatic firefighter and unionist, finished third on first preferences behind Labor and the Liberals.”

  133. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    That bloody-minded attitude could come back to bite Daniel Andrews on his posterior.

  134. paul walter

    JMS, so true, for so long.

    Kaye Lee also, re the Nats. Your blood is worth bottling.

  135. Mick Byron

    MS Smith, It was hardly bloody minded, he just told it how it was. I could see how Greens could be upset but …
    Andrews was upfront and made it clear to the electorate.
    I am certain Tasmanian, South Australia and Victorian Labor will do the same leading into their Elections and it has been rumoured Shorten already has made a similar decision for the next Federal Election 18/19
    Annastacia Ps declaration was clear and forceful and made days BEFORE the election so there could be no misunderstanding

  136. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Mr Bryon,

    it might have got Palaszczuk over the line and it may get the others over too but it hardly accounts for good, progressive, widely representative government when the views of so many are sidelined for political expediency.

    Such narrow thinking does not sustain your viability and sooner or later, even your supporters become tired of your old, worn-out modus operandi.

  137. corvus boreus

    Kaye Lee,
    A couple of years back I took my nephew on a quick trip out to central northern NSW, to visit some special places and give him a glimpse of life on the other side of the great divide.
    When we stopped in Narrabri (electorate of Parkes), one notable feature was that a large number of vehicles (even the ‘pig-rigs’) sported yellow ‘Lock the Gate’ stickers. The ‘No CSG’ variant, printed with the Green’s logo, was relatively thin on the ground..
    Narribri is close to the Pilliga CSG gas-fields, and, as well as ongoing water contamination incidents, locals expressed anger at things like the fact that gas-wells are allowed to do things like jet flames in the middle of a tinderbox forest during total fire bans.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIZQykqCmAo
    However, the widespread discontent at events occurring in the Pilliga scrub doesn’t translate into votes for the Greens, as most of the folks out west wouldn’t voting for a greenie in a pink fit (Greens poll around 6.5%.
    I would add that the more localised and specifically environmental issues surrounding the nearby Maules Creek open-cut coal mine don’t seem to be raising quite the same levels of community objection.

    In summation, although Labor primary has picked up in the area, probably in response to general discontent with the effectiveness of NATS representation, for that reasonable slice of the rural west who actively oppose fracking/ support right of refusal, but would never vote Green, their only real current ‘No CSG’ alternative is the Christian Democrats.
    https://www.cdp.org.au/media-releases/cdp-calls-for-a-moratorium-on-coal-seam-gas-mining-in-nsw/
    Hence, most of them will probably just keep voting Nationals (albeit with an increasing sense of resentment).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_results_for_the_Division_of_Parkes

  138. Miriam English

    Mick Byron, what a load of steaming crap!
    In Dutton’s electorate of Dickson the Greens had a candidate: Michael Berkman.
    In Scott Morrison’s electorate of Cook, the Greens candidate was Nathan Hunt.
    In Malcolm Turnbull’s electorate of Wentworth, the Greens candidate was Dejay Toborek.

    Where do you get this inflammatory garbage that the Greens target Labor? Is there some delusional Labor strategist who is pushing the propaganda to the gullible followers that all Labor’s problems can be blamed on the Greens. Do they think that they can divert attention from Labor’s shift to the Right by attacking the more left-leaning Greens? What the hell are Labor people smoking?

    And Joe Carli, in what universe do the Greens “deliberately weaken worker’s majority benefits”? The Greens have workers’ benefits at the heart of their platform. Is Labor is telling its followers that its own weakening of workers benefits is to be blamed on the Greens? If so, then Labor are now the workers’ enemy because it isn’t true. Just have a look at Greens’ policies.
    https://greens.org.au/policies/employment-workplace-relations
    https://greens.org.au/policies/qld/industrial-relations

  139. Roswell

    Corvus @ 9:14am raises a couple of logical points, too obvious and so simple that they are often overlooked.

    The Nats are a insignificant party, in my opinion, but they tend to have a lot of political clout and generally get want they want. Without their alliance (or is it allegiance?) with the Liberals they would wither and die.

    I’m not suggesting that the Greens would wither and die, but they would have a lot more political clout under a Labor government, especially under a minority government.

    Labor might possibly find themselves having to bend to them, so it’s important for the Greens to see Labor in government.

  140. Miriam English

    “Mr Shorten accused the Greens of only targeting Labor-held seats.”

    So, was Bill Shorten just saying the lies he was told by some strategist to say? Or was he lying at his own choice?

  141. Miriam English

    Perhaps Labor are in the process of representing labour in the same way the Liberals are liberal.

    That would be tragic. I, and my family have all been Labor voters for many generations, but have all gradually deserted Labor for the Greens as Labor betrayed their principles one by one.

    Maybe this is why Labor sees the Greens as the enemy. They keep losing voters to them. They should look at their own policies instead of blaming the Greens.

    By playing this political brinkmanship they hope to scare some voters back into voting for Labor, but they’re doing it for the absolute wrong reasons. If they moved leftward toward their heartland they would easily pick up those voters again. But it seems they don’t want to lose the right-wing vote… and the big money that comes along with it.

  142. diannaart

    What is this B/S about the Greens “stealing” Labor seats?

    People dissatisfied with Labor’s stance on issues such as refugees, real and immediate action on climate change – instead of finally making some kind of (pre-election) statement on Adani – too little to late for many concerned progressive voters, religion in state schools?, continued funding private schools.?.. the list goes on – too tired – do some research!

    Labor will continue to lose seats to the Greens until it returns to left of centre. As Kaye Lee stated very, very clearly in her article, Labor have finally changed some of their policies to more socially progressive ones, it was a long time coming and on policies the Greens have held true to.

    Also, the Greens will not be targeting safe LNP seats – because,

    They. Would. Lose.

    Labor only has itself to blame for the rise in popularity of the Greens.

    PS

    I voted Labor at the last federal election. I would posit swinging voters actually do a lot more consideration of their vote than the rusted-ons in either major party.

    Out and Proud Swinger

    😀

    PPS

    The days of binary political systems are gone.

  143. corvus boreus

    Miriam English,
    Myself, I wouldn’t disagree that there’s merit in the statement that ‘Greens target Labor’, merely add a clasual statement that they neither do so exclusively nor indiscriminately, with reservation for referential addition of a few ‘but what about’s’.

    Mick,
    Greens spending there runs with my broad view (much more to a division with a >20% primary than to a place polling ,15).
    However, I agree that if the author’s right and 5: 1 against Albo is what the Greens put their money on, then it was hard cash squandered on a bad bet. This goes both ideologically and, more ompportantly, pragmatically.
    In terms of the broad Greens electoral agenda of using money to gain seats in parliament though votes (+ image promotion), the campaign for Grayndler did not represent bang for buck but mere doe wasted.
    I remember saying on these pages back in 2016 that the Greens shouldn’t be going Hard for Alabanese.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2016/guide/gray/
    The Greens were not going to win Grayndler, regardless of the merit of candidate or expenditure of resourse.
    Albanese was comfortably entrenched, round 50% primary, mart, savvy, seasoned likable bloke, common touch, comparatively clean.
    Ps, oh yeah, Albo can fight back hard if has to.
    They not only lost money and votes on that undertaking, they also somewhat fouled their brand-cred in the process.

    If I were to offer advice to the Australian Greens in this field, I would tell them to restrict their attacks on Labor into seats that are half-held by bums whose perch is precararious due to piss-poor representation.
    Also, redirect a little bit more effort into kicking some of the more grubbily indolent or actively malignant Coalition arses out of the seats that are groaning and starting to visibly rot..

  144. Joseph Carli

    ” Just have a look at Greens’ policies.”….I did , Miriam..and noble they are too..as ideals of theoretical management of existing employment…But where are the job creation schemes?..where the support for State-run and managed infrastructure that will create thousands of jobs…like roads, industry, energy, Technology R&R…military defence and science deployment and development..It’s easy to say ; “All workers need a fair go..” etc..but first you got to get the “workers” into work.

    So let’s draw a line in the sand here and say that ; RIGHT..from next week, Australia goes the way of Communist China and closes its borders, confiscates ALL private property and seizes all assets and begins to redistribute and reorganise work and ownership and industry on a State run basis..in fact ..pure communism..

    Nah!…you wouldn’t like that..not many would…So there’s the other choice..:Capitalism and all it’s existing faults and political nepotism and elitism with unions battling for the worker and political parties of the left and right fighting for dominance to govern both monetary policy and industry distribution..not many like that ideal either..

    So there’s only Socialism left..and that involves a majority of people sympathetic to ethnic equality, more equal distribution of resources and wealth, decent, full-time employment with steady, sufficient wages in an environment that doesn’t destroy the Earth..; A renewable systems economy..environmentally friendly..

    So where are Labor failing?..and where are the Greens saying otherwise..the only problem being that with the weakening of the left-wing vote by siphoning off of the thin-skinned, wavering and weak-kneed Labor supporters to The Greens, there is less chance of those socialist ambitions being fulfilled.

    And again I ask: Where are The Greens infrastructure /job creation policies?

  145. Joseph Carli

    ” And again I ask: Where are The Greens infrastructure /job creation policies?”…and please..Don’t say you’ll expand the Tafe courses for more baristas !

  146. diannaart

    Also the Greens are not the answer, they are only on the way to a solution.

    Our lives are far more complex than they were 20, 30 years ago. Progressives need more than just the Greens as an alternative choice, we need 4, 5 or 6 more choices. More smaller parties are far more representative than two lumbering old-school, last century dichotomies.

    As for “Greens infrastructure/job creation policies” – they do have them go to their website and take a look. Besides, if it is not obvious the move to renewable technology offers far more jobs than sticking to the same-old same-old, then perhaps a bit of reflection is required, instead of ‘pretend’ sarcasm.

    I’d like to see a rusted-on Labor voter write some satire about rusted-on Labor supporters… just a thought…

  147. Joseph Carli

    ” I’d like to see a rusted-on Labor voter write some satire about rusted-on Labor supporters… just a thought…”….They have!…It’s called “Genesis”…

  148. corvus boreus

    Roswell,
    Personally, I think that an ongoing succession of unresolved election campaigns could possibly transform Australia into a land of eternal magical promises. Oh. think of the dream-webs that would be wove in despair of solution!

  149. diannaart

    Don’t read the bible – entirely unsure what “genesis” has to do with rusted on anything – if memory serves there was not much rust in creation.

    Surely you can write something right now? Being such a clever word-smith ‘n all..

  150. Miriam English

    Joe, “the only problem being that with the weakening of the left-wing vote by siphoning off of the thin-skinned, wavering and weak-kneed Labor supporters to The Greens, there is less chance of those socialist ambitions being fulfilled.”

    As if blind, committed Labor acolytes sticking to Labor as it moves ever right-ward improves the chance of a socialist future in Australia — they fanatically follow labor as it condones climate-destroying, indigenous land-stealing mines, opposes an anti-corruption watchdog until they’re forced to agree to it, opposes marriage equality until they’re forced to re-think…. and so on.

  151. Mick Byron

    “Mick Byron, what a load of steaming crap!
    In Dutton’s electorate of Dickson the Greens had a candidate: Michael Berkman.
    In Scott Morrison’s electorate of Cook, the Greens candidate was Nathan Hunt.
    In Malcolm Turnbull’s electorate of Wentworth, the Greens candidate was Dejay Toborek.”

    Please read first.
    I didn’t say they didn’t have candidates, I said they spent the majority of their election Budget opposing Labor, NOT LNP.
    $250.000 against Albo, which from accounts was more than they spent opposing Turnbull, Abbott,Morrison,Hawke,Alexander COMBINED

    Mr Shorten accused the Greens of only targeting Labor-held seats.”

    “So, was Bill Shorten just saying the lies he was told by some strategist to say? Or was he lying at his own choice?”
    He didn’t say they weren’t contesting seats ,just putting massive effort on Labor held seats.
    Even Greens acknowledge that, you can’t?

    Was The Greens spending 1/3rd of the NSW election Budget against Albo? yes it was. That’s targetting

    “NSW Greens budgeted $250,000 to get as close as possible to toppling powerhouse Labor left MP Anthony Albanese, a man with a reputation for brawling with Tories who showed during the campaign he’s happy to throw a right hook as well. That figure is up from the $80,000 allocated to Grayndler in 2013, and is $60,000 more than was allotted to take on Tanya Plibersek in Sydney, according to figures seen by New Matilda.

    On that return, the Greens saw both their primary and two party preferred vote in Grayndler go backwards, easing in the wrong direction by less than one per cent. Jim Casey, a charismatic firefighter and unionist, finished third on first preferences behind Labor and the Liberals.”
    https://newmatilda.com/2016/07/11/a-tale-of-two-cities-inside-the-greens-nsw-struggle/

    In QLD. the Greens ran candidates in ALL seats however, again, it is reported that the bulk of finances were spent on Maiwar,South Brisbane,McConnel .
    THe Greens Anti Labor campaign and their campaign advertising was almost exclusively on those 3 seats and their whole campaign rarely mentioned LNP,PHON.Katter ..just Labor.
    I was up there then, if you want examples I’ll provide

  152. Joseph Carli

    ” Surely you can write something right now? Being such a clever word-smith ‘n all..”….Shall I , shall I?….nah..let it pass..

  153. Mick Byron

    “I’d like to see a rusted-on Labor voter write some satire about rusted-on Labor supporters… just a thought…”
    Why would they want to do that?
    If you want satire to fill in your day I would strongly recommend
    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/inside-the-greens:-a-party-in-turmoil/8794660
    an absolute cracker,not even Norman Gubston could compete 😀

  154. Meg

    Who is this ALLiance? How can I join?
    I’m so sick of Labor’s complicit cruelty in locking up those beautiful boys like Reza, who clearly need a safe haven after we destroyed Iran.

  155. Miriam English

    Mick Byron, the Greens worked hard on Maiwar, yes, and it paid off — for the first time a Green has been elected to the Queensland parliament. They want to have a voice. Labor has made a point of deliberately ignoring them and cutting ties. So for the Greens this seems a pretty logical move. Yes, the Greens spent a lot of money on that. So what? Are Labor people so insanely obsessed with the Greens that they pin all their shortcomings on them? WTF!?

    Personally I think Greens and Labor should both be cooperating. If Labor want to act like a bunch of selfish pricks then let them. I don’t think the Greens should lower themselves to doing the same. It’s a bit like two little kids in the back seat of the car when Mum says to stop fighting: “He hit me first.” “No she hit me first.” It’s childish, and the ultimate winners are the LNP who can get along with the National-Country Party in a coalition to help them keep power.

    If I was given to conspiracy theories I’d wonder if there’s an LNP mole inside Labor pushing this anger to prevent the progressives gaining power. But I don’t think it’s a conspiracy. It is all sufficiently explained by stupidity.

  156. Michael Taylor

    I’d like to see a rusted-on Labor voter write some satire about rusted-on Labor supporters… just a thought…

    That certainly might be amusing, but I’m afraid there’s some Labor supporters out there who just wouldn’t see the funny side (which of course is their problem).

    The anti-AIMN stuff coming out of one or two Labor supporting Facebook groups is beyond feral … because … wait for it … the site isn’t Labor enough! And … again, wait for it … we dare to publish articles supporting the Greens or give Greens voters the platform to have a say!

    FFS, 99% of our political articles are either pro-Labor or (mainly) anti-LNP. But! … Write one bad thing about a Labor politician or Labor policy, or one good thing about the Greens, or publish comments supporting any of the three things, and some hard-core Labor supporters carry on – well, I’ve go to say it – like Liberal fanatics!

    So I say: go ahead and do it. 😀

    PS: I’m a Labor voter, btw.

  157. Meg

    Interesting theory, Miriam – could the mole be Bill himself? Think about it… a-once son-in-law of a Liberal billionaire Julian Beale, he undermined Rudd to install Julia. When he realised Julia was being undone by the most malignant misogyny Bill then undermined Julia to restore Rudd, who – by then could never beat an ascendant Abbott (thanks to Merdeoch’s disgraceful lies). And Bill failed to win last year’s election against a two-time fizza. If only Tanya was at the wheel. I despair

  158. diannaart

    Michael

    You stirrer, you.

    I might be wrong and far too often am, but I don’t think rusted-ons of ANY persuasion want to be satirical of their own. No fun.

    Far better to poke the others (the not rusted-ons) with a stick and if they score any reaction, claim they were only joking.

    Therefore, I won’t be holding my breath.

    🙂

  159. corvus boreus

    Michael Taylor,
    I understand, respect and admire why you vote Labor, and add thanks for the fact that you and your wife (or vice-versa), run an independent online media platform for various people to freely express their different opinions (accompanying evident citations appreciated) upon various topics (vague or specific), so long as such expressions are not made in a way that gratuitously demeans or disrupts discussion.

    I am truly sorry that you are copping facebook flak for providing this valued platform.

  160. diannaart

    CB

    I am not at all surprised. Facebook attracts trolls almost as much as Twitter. Anonymity has always suited cowardly haters – of any political stripe.

  161. Kaye Lee

    Michael,

    That is what continually astonishes me. Labor spend so much time and money on polling and focus groups and monitoring social media and having town hall meetings but if you try to offer constructive criticism via a blog, and a mainly progressive one where people sympathetic to their cause reside, they have a hissy fit.

    Are they actively trying to lose people?????

    Do they consider themselves an exclusive club whose proclamations must be worshipped as infallible? Are we to ignore history of them slowly adopting policies the Greens have had for a long time?

    Mention the Greens and the hysterical reaction is assured. And they blame them for fighting the wrong people. Labor members’ hatred of the Greens seems to occupy more of their time and thoughts than opposition to the government. Another case of speck, plank.

  162. diannaart

    Kaye Lee

    I would much rather use my limited reserves of energy, arguing with those on the other side of the political divide. However, it is interesting to note the similarities in arguments used by any who cannot cop criticism. They sound the same, they use the same argument and they will not admit to any faults.

    Says as much about human nature as it does about political beliefs.

  163. Miriam English

    Meg, nope. I don’t think it’s a mole or any other kind of conspiratorial move inside Labor. I do think Murdoch whips up hysteria against the Greens though. He definitely does it to divide the progressives.

  164. Kaye Lee

    diannaart,

    Unfortunately I think there may be a personal component in this. But be that as it may….

    The way I see it, both major parties wait until things are politically palatable or politically inevitable. The Greens go in front, dragging the community and eventually, when they think it is safe, the major parties with them.

  165. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Meg,

    The ALLiance is my interim solution in this current dinosaur duopoly until we can have a multi-party executive government, as referred to above.

    The ALLiance between the Greens, Labor (and other Progressives) would have won Labor power in 2016 but they were too bloody-minded and monopolistic for power in their own right to agree to it.

    Instead they lost by ONE seat! A disgrace!

    Their refusal to allow The ALLiance cost all those of us in vulnerable societal positions; it cost the environment and renewable energy industries; it cost the economy; it cost our kids decent chances in education and housing; and so on.

    The ALLiance is the inevitable solution Labor will have to come to terms with to take Government from this outrageous, corrupt LNP regime and to put Australia back onto a Progressive, Innovative, Democratic Socialist path for now and the future.

  166. corvus boreus

    diannart (3:21),
    I, like you, post within the anonymity of a nom-de-plume (each, no doubt, for our own reasons).
    For me, there are certain protective survivalist aspects of the cloak & mask, but the protective filtration should work both ways.
    As the shrouding shield of ‘borvus boreus’ saves me from the worst of the humans, so should ‘cb’ help protect them from me.

  167. paul walter

    Winning stuff, Kaye Lee.. wiped the floor with them.

  168. Mick Byron

    Ms Meyer.
    I think I missed something in this ALLIANCE discussion
    ” would have won Labor power in 2016 but they were too bloody-minded and monopolistic for power in their own right to agree to it.”
    How did that happen and who held the discussions?
    :Instead they lost by ONE seat! A disgrace! ”
    Who do you mean by that,everyone who wasn’t LNP?

    “Their refusal to allow The ALLiance”
    Who was in on the negotiations and who refused what?

    I really am curious about this as I never saw any reports about discussions.
    Is it possible you could write an article on the formation and makeup of the Alliance and the events you outlined above as I would be very interested in this

  169. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Cast your mind back, Mr By, to the many discussions we all had on this site and to which you were a part.

  170. helvityni

    If Labor and the Greens don’t join forces, lets have the Duttons and the like leading the country if that’s what you people want… I give up.

  171. Mick Byron

    I’m talking about the POLITICIANS.
    Who were they, what Parties were involved in discussions, Who said No, WHY
    “to the many discussions we all had on this site and to which you were a part.”
    That was a few on an online site having a conversation.
    You were intimating Politicians rejected this, I would like to know which ones, and when
    .
    Let me go back one step further.
    Did any Politician know/know of or even discuss this ALLIANCE?

    I really would be keen to read about all the meetings and how these rejections came about and by what politicians

  172. diannaart

    Kaye Lee

    I have no doubt of a personal motive…

    CB

    As you say we all have reasons for our chosen nom de plume – mine is so close to my real name… Nonetheless it does offer some protection, perhaps not as much as the wings of a raven…

    Trolls use the anonymity for reasons they probably justify to themselves. Ironic, perhaps. both good and bad people drive cars.

  173. Mick Byron

    helvityni
    People have free choice who they vote for and who knows,Dutton could still be in with a chance given Media backing
    There is even a possibility in the next few months Tasmania,Victoria and South Australia could all go LNP to or in the case of S.A. Xenophon
    Remember how quickly polls change particularly if we get a few Media driven “Terror threats” The combined forces of Print.Radio and Television Media the Murdoch/Gina/Twiggy Corporate wealth all behind the LNP and the usual” Labor bad money managers”- “bad,bad Unions”
    I think New England was the classic example
    Another interesting point
    S.A. ,home of Tesla battery
    A poll today on who has the best power policy in S.A.
    1 LNP
    2 Labor
    3 Xenophon

  174. corvus boreus

    diannaart,
    Humans say ‘roadkill’, but it is humans in cars that do most of the killing.
    The road is just the plate the kill is served upon.

  175. Roswell

    Don’t give up, helvityni. Sanity may one day prevail.

    Imagine if we all gave up!

  176. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Mr By,

    Shortarse’s public refusal said repeatedly on MSM. Bowen’s public refusal in his little neoliberal jumped up suit. That’s two.

    Their ignorance refused the possibility of what the Greens’ Bandt publicly offered and we are ALL living with the devastating consequences.

  177. Mick Byron

    Ms Meyer. I presume “Shortarse’s” is Bill Shorten ?
    One of the joys of being an ALP member is you can email a Member and they or their staff will get back to you
    I’ll email both Bowen and Shorten and ask about the ALLIANCE negotiations and what issues it broke down over, what other Parties were involved in negotiations and their responses
    Did you have a specific date this all took place on as it may mean a speedier response.
    In the meantime, could you give me some MSM links where Shorten repeatedly refused to be part of the ALLIANCE

  178. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Mr By,

    correct on your first query;
    you do that on your second suggestion but make sure you request the reasons why they failed the Australian People when refusing any such negotiations; and
    no to your demands for links coz they are out there and YOU can do the research yourself (not that I’ll hold my breath.)

  179. corvus boreus

    Mick Byron,
    Just so you don’t continue to clog the thread (or go using up ALP resource to investigate), the ‘ALLiance is Ms Jennifer Meyer-Smith’s own personal choice to 3-letter capitalise her aspirational desire for ALL the people grouped within and around comparatively progressive parties of relatively similar values (within the big bad) to work together for the shared ground of common good (the ALL-iance).
    The ‘ALLiance’ does not (correct me if I’m wrong, JMS) currently constitute a constituted and registrated organisation or body.
    Hope that helps stop the fretting.

  180. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    If corvus boreus gets it, why not you, Mr By?

    ……………………………….

    Meg,

    please excuse the little squirmish. Sadly some people cannot see the wood for the trees.

    Go The ALLiance!

  181. corvus boreus

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith,
    Possibly because I have less eye upon the cheerleaders of the teams, thus clearer view of the general state of play.

  182. corvus boreus

    Ps, JMS,
    Personally I’d prefer you didn’t use sledges like ‘Short-arse’ as a substitutive derogatory for William Shorten MP, particularly just now..
    The member for Maribyrnong has, as leader of the ALP, clearly enunciated support for policy that you and I ( andso many others) have have, collectively and individually, lobbied for with such longing.
    Please do not slag off the leader of the opposition for the sake of personal provocation.

  183. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    corvus boreus,

    I respectfully am disinclined to acquiesce to your request …
    … until I see He-who-shall-remain-nameless for this instant, show definite commitment to:
    – People on Newstart and the need for DOUBLING the Newstart benefit;
    – eradicating the Mutual Obligations;
    – eradicating the Welfare Card;
    – quadrupling the Allowable Paid Income before the Newstart Benefit is reduced;
    – returning and widening the separate sole parent benefit, so such recipients are not held hostage on Newstart; and
    – widening the Disability Support Pension, so such recipients are not held hostage on Newstart too.

  184. Kaye Lee

    JMS,

    Calling people names is no substitute for making a case for changes you would like to see. It would be more helpful and more informative to make the case and drop the derogatory epithets.

    And to, as cb suggests, acknowledge when they listen and do as we ask as in the case of a federal integrity body.

  185. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    KL,

    I’ve made the case anyway but I will attempt to act on my best behaviour and I will expect the same from others at all times too.

  186. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    You must have slipped that extra paragraph in when I was on Twitter.

    I always give credit where credit is due. Yes, Bill is calling for the National Integrity Commission now, so for his belated acquiescence, I am prepared to say a lukewarm thanks.

    I would be more enthusiastic next time, if his plans to double Newstart and commit to other progressive proposals, happen without him sitting on the fence watching the focus groups first.

  187. Joseph Carli

    On the subject of sledging..I remember an incident on a city building site back in the early seventies, where this group of shovel-leaning labourers was near the street and the “old bugger” of the group took a dislike to the appearance of a young lout across the other side of the street and proceeded to sledge him thus:

    “Hey!..you long-haired git!..why don’t you get a hair cut, some decent clothes and get a job!?”

    To which one of the other labourers in the group..a young bloke himself chastised the “old bugger”..

    ” I believe people have the right to dress and wear their hair as they want.”

    The “old bugger” fastened his disgusted gaze and curled lip upon the lad, looked him up and down in disgust and spat nearby..and then addressed him disdainfully.:

    “You should’a been a bloody priest!”

  188. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Onya Joe.

    Go The ALLiance!

  189. Miriam English

    I kinda wish people wouldn’t use insulting names for politicians. Apart from it making me uncomfortable, it also often becomes difficult to work out who they are talking about. One person who frequents AIMN (I don’t see him here at the moment) uses very “creative” names for the targets of his ire and I usually have to skip right on over his comment as I can’t work out, for the life of me, who he’s referring to. Maybe I’m a bit Aspie and just find it hard because I’m too literal. I don’t know.

  190. Kaye Lee

    To avoid being told to get off my high horse again…..I withdraw. We all approach things in our own way. I prefer debate to debase but hey….

    PS Joe, who do you think was in the right…the old bugger or the young guy? There are a lot of people who don’t like having their prejudices pointed out.

  191. Roswell

    Miriam, I’ll scream if I hear “Turdball” one more time.

  192. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Am I allowed to say Malcolm Muck, pretty please?

  193. Joseph Carli

    Kaye Lee…I plead the Hal Porter defence..: I am but a “Watcher on the cast iron balcony”….

  194. Kaye Lee

    “Porter’s novels are, with one exception, less successful than his stories, not least because his scorn for most of his characters becomes wearying over the length of a novel.”

  195. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    We all have our own way of expressing ourselves.

    I’m still awaiting permission to call Muck, ‘Malcolm Muck’, as the need arises.

  196. Joseph Carli

    Nothing wrong with the title..I wish I thought of it..

    “..But he was never one to miss a political opportunity..was Tiger Brennan, the long-time late mayor of Darwin..

    One balmy Darwin afternoon, just before the wet rains came in..I was sitting on the back balcony having a coupla quiet beers, watching the world slip by..I have to admit there is a lot to see from a balcony..Hal Porter was well paced on his cast-iron balcony.

    It was after cyclone Tracy and many of the flats were abandoned and ruined, but had been taken over by squatting hippies..who would congregate in a clearing, out in the back yards of the flats and would for want of a better description; Pow-wow around a camp-fire and pass the joints around…this infuriated Tiger because he had just that season driven the hippies out of their tree-houses on Darwin beach and they then retreated to squat right under his nose in these flats.

    I was sitting there listening to the hippie conversation and then I could hear Potter talking to Tiger just under the balcony..I looked down and I could see Potter showing Tiger his newest acquisition, a short-barrel shotgun he had purchased to take with him every time he went further down the Stuart Highway past Berri Springs…The movie ; “Deliverence” had just done the rounds of the Darwin Cinema and it put the wind up many of the alpha males in Darwin, who believed the worst thing could happen to a red-blooded Aussie male was to get rheemed up the arse no matter what the disadvantage or situation..hence the shotgun.

    “How many shots can you get off in a minute?” Tiger asked as he held his cigar.
    “I can empty the magazine” Potter reassured him.
    “Go on!” Tiger looked impressed.
    “I’ll show you” Potter replied.and in doing so quickly filled the magazine with solid slug 12gauge shells…pumped the magazine once and fired off five shots in quick succession into an idle 44gallon drum full of water nearby. “boom,boom,boom”…As the drum jumped and thumped and water sprayed everywhere, the hippies scattered like chaff in the wind in every direction, Tiger sprang to the offered opportunity and yelled after them;
    “And there’s plenty more of that for you bastards if you come back too!”

    I don’t know what happened to Tiger eventually..I do know he retired under some kind of cloud..but that’s all I remember….there are limits and it was the seventies! “

  197. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Malcolm Muck aka Turnbull and his LNP Degenerates; Neoliberalism; and Fascism are the Enemies.

    The ALLiance of Greens, Left Labor and Progressives should never forget those opponents.

    That’s why The ALLiance is SO necessary with or without Shorten’s support

  198. corvus boreus

    Once, i was once drinking in a pub (or it may have been on a work-site).
    There was this old ‘bugger’, although, in saying this, i do not actually know if he was an active practitioner of either anal sex or bestiality, but I’ll call him a ‘bugger’ anyway because, you know, that Toyota ad made the word much less offensive than ‘f*cker’.
    There was also a youngish ‘lout’, who may or may not have been an uncouth and aggressive.youth.
    The old ‘bugger’, who may or may not have enjoyed burying his tackle in butts and/or beasts, yelled some shit at the young ‘lout’.
    I do not actually recall if the young ‘lout’ responded by either word or deed, but the old ‘bugger said some other shit to a colleague.
    Here endeth the parable.

  199. Jaq

    Amen Kaye!!! What many EX Labor voters have been saying for ages!
    Trouble is Shorten is just interested in power play and not what what is good for the country- the Marriage Equality bill a case in point- only Turdbull jumped on the bandwagon and Shorten lost his spotlight- even though it had been a Greens policy all along. The Greens may not ever form Gov, but they are the best we have for keeping the other power hungry career bastards honest.

  200. corvus boreus

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith (7:04),
    Yeah, I would also have preferred Bill’s proposal for a ‘National Integrity Commission’ to have been an immediate policy commitment rather than a mere ‘if’ of an election promise, but such is the reality of our current ‘beggars choice’.

  201. Jaq

    And I see Trish Corry on here now being ridiculous as many of us have experienced her on Twitter!
    Talk about turning people off Labor…silly.
    I used to vote Labor but like many people I will vote on the policies I agree with. It has nothing to do with me being an ex hippie or drinking soy lattes or whatever. I will vote with my conscience. That’s all.

  202. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Jaq,

    I concur with your description of how party pragmatics is allowed to dominate party principles.

    As ALLiance supporters, we expect better from the Greens/Labor/Progressives ALLiance than the LNP Degenerates

  203. johno

    I love soy lattes.

  204. Miriam English

    It’s a pity Trish can be so fanatical. In her more balanced moments she’s a good and intelligent person and I like her, but when she turns rabid Labor defender… well, it’s a pity… a waste.

  205. Joseph Carli

    corvus boreus …if you haven’t got the skills for it, you’re better not to tackle it..you only end up ravin’ like a relic!

  206. Roswell

    To be honest, Trish could almost turn me off Labor, too.

    She never will, of course. She gives it her best try though.

    She’s dedicated to her cause, I’ll give her that, but, well, you’ve all seen her in action here.

  207. Mick Byron

    The retractable claws come out,attack- the pride move on circling for the next prey and spending time grooming each other ,waiting .

  208. corvus boreus

    Joseph Carli,
    Yore rite.
    I shouldn’t disrupt a serious conversation by gratuitously indulging my own fetish for irrelevantly spouting cliché fiction based around cartoon caricatures because, in retrospect, that might look like mere trolling (oops, I mean ‘playing with people for fun’).

  209. Kaye Lee

    You may want to scroll up Mick to see who went for the jugular.

  210. corvus boreus

    In another progressive step forward for federal Labor, Bill Shorten has stated that he is ‘becoming increasingly sceptical of Adani’, and expressed serious concern about reports that Adani may have altered scientific findings regarding contamination of wetlands around Abbott point coal terminal during cyclone ‘Debbie’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/02/suspicions-adani-altered-lab-report-while-appealing-fine-for-abbot-point-coal-spill
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/feb/02/ged-kearney-to-run-for-labor-in-batman-as-shorten-threatens-adanis-licence

    Ps, for those who actually give a shit, here’s the latest bright idea to try and help save some bits of the great barrier reef; big fans.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-07/reef-fans-to-be-deployed-to-protect-coral-from-bleaching/9234710

  211. Joseph Carli

    Corvus..Out here in the country we are all aware it is the crow..; your representative Gravitar, who first picks the eyes out of a dead carcase or road-kill…look to thyself for attrition or contrition…I am underneath your pay scale..

  212. Miriam English

    Mick Byron, it weird that fanatics and extremists tend to attack others while claiming they are under attack. Religious extremists are great at this. Political extremists and fanatics devoted to any party do this too. You can tell the difference between extremists and more balanced types by the fact that extremists are blind to failings of their own “tribe”, whereas balanced people can see failings not only of “others” but of those they are more aligned with too.

    Read earlier comments where people attacked and see if they were balanced with wider understandings or whether they were blind devotees. I think you might surprise yourself.

  213. Miriam English

    Joe, that is a silly thing to say. I’m surprised at you.

  214. corvus boreus

    JC,
    My pay scale?
    A full week’s labour (ticks, scratches, blisters and all), plus some bonus weekend consultancy work thrown in, still leaves me envious of the ‘average wage’, even with appropriate remunerative loading for my relevant industry qualifications and experience.

    However, in the end, this thread isn’t really about me and my piss-poor pay-rate, nor is it chiefly concerned with the dietary habits of antipodean corvids. .

  215. Mick Byron

    Kaye LeeFebruary 4, 2018 at 7:35 am

    “You may want to scroll up Mick to see who went for the jugular.”

    I did as you suggested and the last comment I see from Trish is 3 days and about 160 or so comments ago.
    I think my analogy may have been wrong it was more ,more Jaws like and I was going to say “like great whites- but more the traits of pack feeders the blacktip reef sharks.
    I will leave it there and back off slowly I don’t particulary like blacktip reef sharks and fear the waters the cruise in now

  216. Kaye Lee

    Let’s get real here Mick. From what I can gather, this article was linked on a Facebook page accompanied by a request for people to come and help fight the Greens supporters, who were given too much voice on The AIMN.

    It would be good if we actually talked policy instead of personalities but party politics seems to prefer to have a blue.

  217. Miriam English

    I wonder what it takes for Bill Shorten to get the message that Adani is a crook…
    ♦ A Four Corners investigation into how untrustworthy they are, and all the crimes and dirty tricks they pull?
    ♦ The Townsville council being bribed by Adani to provide an airport for Adani (outside Townsvilles electoral boundaries) at the expense of Townsville taxpayers?
    ♦ Adani’s own people’s admission that the employment numbers were total bullshit because it would be the world’s most automated mine and would employ a tiny number of people?
    ♦ Bank after bank backing away from the project as being economically unviable?
    ♦ Adani’s suspect “agreement” with indigenous people in what looks like an attempt to swindle their land out of them?
    ♦ The guaranteed damage to the climate and the Great Barrier Reef of a giant coal mine?
    ♦ Adani’s evasion of tax by undervaluing the coal they extract, then transporting it through tax-shelter countries where the price can be jacked up prior to resale?
    ♦ Adani breaking the law with respect to contamination of wetlands?

    No. Bill has the sudden realisation that on top of all this, Adani falsified the contamination records to make it seem less bad than it was, so now Adani might not be trustworthy.

    Welcome to the well trodden path Bill. It’s good to have you here, but considering you’re supposed to be a leader, it might be a bit better to actually, you know, lead… that is, instead of, ummm, following.

  218. Kaye Lee

    cb,

    Yes. Once again, the Greens have stood firm from the outset in their opposition to the mine and slowly, Labor is coming to join them.

    Miriam,

    Don’t forget the Indian investigation into Adani rerouting invoices through third countries to inflate prices.

    And….

    “The Adani Group has become embroiled in a corruption scandal in South Africa after a series of leaked emails revealed the Indian power company was in talks to do a weapons deal with the controversial Gupta family.”

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/leaked-gupta-mails-talk-of-selling-denel-to-adani/articleshow/59116515.cms?utm_source=twitter.com

  219. Miriam English

    Mick, it wasn’t just Trish. You sank the fangs in while declaring the Greens were “treacherous” (for doing exactly what Labor does). You went on strange rants about how the Greens spent money on a campaign that they saw they could win in an area where enough people were disappointed with Labor, and how this was somehow an example of wrongdoing by the Greens rather than Labor’s bad choices coming back to bite them. Joe Carli disappointingly started making repellent attacks on the character of people who vote Greens. That saddens me because I like Joe and consider him a friend.

  220. Miriam English

    And of course there is the characterisation of people who want Labor to improve as being sharks engaging in frenzied attacks. If you actually re-read your and other people’s comments I think you’ll see the reverse actually happened.

    I find this really interesting. As I mentioned before, it puzzles me how fanatical devotees can see themselves under attack when they are the ones making the attacks. How does a person’s mind detach from reality like that? It is an effect that would be useful to understand in the current push by Christian extremists who see themselves as under attack, when they are the only group actually attacking anybody.

    Similarly, Kaye’s article didn’t attack Labor, but rather pointed out how they consistently used (even needed) the Greens to illuminate the way for them, but she was then roundly attacked for even daring to suggest that Labor might have flaws and for giving the impression that the Greens are ordinary progressive folk instead of disgusting, treacherous creatures… predatory big cats, or sharks even.

  221. Joseph Carli

    Oh, Miriam!…That I was expected to comply to a status of measured approval in your esteem..?…I’m surprised at YOU!..Corvus mocks me, I defend, he slights me, I defend..what beguiles thee to judge?..is thou who was offended?..thou betrayed?.. ’sooth, if the man was but more astute with acerbic word or sweep of wit?..but what I get is little more than the pooling of a babe’s pap on a nursing breast!..surely greater wit than such would be my deserved measure?..and is thou so involved in yon spat that public admonishment is your only recourse?….Miriam, that is a silly thing to say. I’m surprised at you…… 🙂

  222. Joseph Carli

    Keep in mind fellow bloggers, that many “attacks” against The Greens were just that..Criticism or caricature against the demographic…NOT against an individual..in my case, that started after my gentle touch of satire!

  223. Kaye Lee

    Joseph, I disagree with your assessment of the demographic. I remember after the first March in March, Tory Shepherd saying the Marchers would “disappear up their own proverbials in a puff of BO and bong smoke.”

    I took my young nephews to that March. We spoke about what was important to them before we went. They made their own signs, another thing Tory Shepherd disparaged. We marched with my elderly neighbours and our local Anglican Minister, Father Rod. I saw my kids’ old teacher there, my nephew’s piano teacher and my son’s cricket coach.

    There was nothing stereotypical about the Marchers – they came from every demographic and their signs represented many different topics. The thing they shared was concern for our country.

  224. Andreas Bimba

    What I want from our federal government.

    A price on carbon with a full refund to all citizens so that greenhouse gas emissions reduce by 6% per annum. Protection and restoration of the natural environment.

    Fiscal net spending so that we again have full employment. {Roy Morgan estimate of Australian unemployment and underemployment is currently 19.4%}

    An ambitious Green New Deal and a rapid transition to environmental sustainability.
    Import tariffs of 15% on some manufactured goods such as passenger vehicles, white goods, steel and similar so that Australia is able to sustain a significant manufacturing sector. Adopt the Japanese approach to industrial and commercial development as practiced by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry – METI since WW2.

    Remove the corrupting influence of money and lobbyists from politics. Full public funding of election campaigns. Proportional representation voting. Permanent federal and state ICAC’s. Independent, balanced and relevant mass media and engaged electorate.

    A fair and compassionate social welfare system. Free education from childcare to multiple degree higher education. Affordable, high quality universal healthcare including dental care so that private health insurance is no longer required. Adequate aged pensions from 60 for men and women. Adequate disability support for all of those that need it.

    Progressive taxation and no CGT concession or negative gearing for speculative investments such as property or shares. Rental revenue taxed higher than other income.

    Unwind most of 30+ years of neoliberalism.

    This will do for a start. Who offers it? No one but the Greens are closest.

    The best way to improve the ALP is probably to vote Green.

  225. corvus boreus

    Kaye Lee,
    I thought the categorization of ‘Lock the Gaters’ as ‘city lattés’ was the most disagreeable of those sledges/satires.
    Having seen both the direct methods being employed and some of the serious repercussions (legal and physical) suffered by people working at the sharp end on the frontline of LTG’s actions, that splatter painting of a committed and active community movement with a broad rural support base as being the reserved province of precious urban princesses struck me as being a particularly distorted picture.

  226. Joseph Carli

    Andreas..The Greens may offer it..and like ALL their policies..they can offer them up to ALL the Gods in Paganism or Christendom…but they A-R-E-N-‘-T going to be able to deliver them in a effing light-year of Sundees…WHY? because they just don’t have the sway with the majority of people outside the visionary circle of Zuma Cafe’s Barista to gain governance..

  227. Joseph Carli

    Now..I have voted for The Greens (SHY) in the Senate several times when Labor held the majority ..as a foil against right-wing Labor policy-makers…I know a good political deal when i see one…but that STUPID decision to not back a carbon trading scheme ANY SCHEME..as long as it got the cab off the rank and into the mainstream traffic..and those other blunders of late that best not get a mention for the ructions it will cause..have soured any inkling to “taste” their medicine again..at least in the near future..

  228. Meg

    Labor need the Greens’ voters’ second preference. And their vote on the floor in a hung parliament. And does the ALLiance have a website? Where can people get more information? I’m fed up – the ALP and Greens, just like the Democrats in the USA all get rich while pretending to care for the poor.

  229. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I’m with you, Andreas.

    ……………………………….

    Joe,

    the point is, regardless of whether the Greens can deliver these initiative on their own or not, these initiatives are essential for a vigorous democracy where everybody has the right to win and so does the environment.

    Hence, the need for Labor and the Greens to work together productively to make them happen once the LNP are kicked out in mid-2018.

    …………………………………………………

    Meg,

    did you see my response to you yesterday about the genesis of The ALLiance?
    .

  230. Kaye Lee

    I also was disappointed when the Greens voted against the original ERS but the reality is that they felt it didn’t go far enough and a few years later they were able, with the help of two independents, to negotiate a real price on carbon.

    Unfortunately, this provoked the shock jocks and Murdoch to convince a gullible public that Tony Abbott’s bullshit “axe the tax” was the way to go. Why? Because it added a few dollars to electricity bills. Let’s forget that the Coalition’s GST added 10% to every single bill you pay. Let’s forget the cost of coping with increasingly ferocious natural disasters and changes in weather patterns and a dying reef.

    If they were concerned about power prices, why not make them GST free like fresh food and medicine and education? But neither major party would cop that when Leyonhjelm suggested it.

    Yet an investigation by the Parliamentary Budget Office found that Senator Leyonhjelm’s proposal would in fact raise government revenue by “$600 million over the next four years because the foregone GST meant Canberra wouldn’t have to pay the states as much”

    It seems to me that they don’t want solutions to problems, they just want to disagree for the sake of it.

  231. Andreas Bimba

    Thanks Green comrade Jennifer.

    Joseph, the Greens are not as irrelevant as you think. For the 2016 federal election the first preference vote in Victoria was:
    Liberal 37.1%
    Labor 35.6%
    Greens 13.1%
    Nationals 4.8%

    http://results.aec.gov.au/20499/Website/HouseStateFirstPrefsByParty-20499-VIC.htm

    The Greens in Victoria gain about 1/3 of the vote of the Liberals or Labor. At some point both the Labor Party and Coalition will not be able to form a majority in their own right and this will first happen in South Australia with SA Best making the biggest inroads.

    Our current seat based system for the lower houses of our parliaments, except Tasmania and ACT state/territory elections, heavily favours the duopoly but slowly this is being broken as people are pissed off with the no real choice two party system and are turning more and more towards the smaller parties and independents.

    As soon as we can switch to a progressive voting system like the Tasmanian and ACT Hare-Clark voting system it is game over for the duopoly.

    Many may still see Labor as the working class party but they abandoned the working class long ago and just offer a more compassionate and competent but still conservative neoliberal agenda. We should all wake up to the fact that the Coalition (Abbott) cut services by say $50 billion and then when we get a Labor government they are likely to increase services by say only $5 billion, net cut $45 billion.

    Labor are scared of our rubbish neoliberal mass media, the power and money of the corporate oligarchy and the plutocracy and many senior Labor figures also like to get their snouts in the trough.

  232. Glenn Barry

    If only Labor and the Greens had a fundamental understanding and application of the concept of “The enemy or my enemy is my friend” – the squabbling for the same space does leave them feeding on table scraps

  233. Miriam English

    Joe, definitely the Greens have made mistakes. I don’t think anybody here would dispute that. It is strange that you’d focus on those errors of judgement as a reason to dismiss them. Look at all the awful clangers Labor have dropped — backing the horrendous Adani mine, not backing marriage equality (until way late), locking up in concentration camps legal refugees as if they were criminals and more, recounted above. Do you see those as a reason to never vote Labor again?

  234. Miriam English

    Glen Barry, well put.

    Andreas, February 4, 2018 at 10:00 am, excellent description of what we should be moving toward.

  235. diannaart

    Stole my thunder, Miriam

    Was going to bring up apples v oranges; in damning the Greens for their inept negotiation on carbon, yet fighting tooth and nail (or was that “gentle satire”?) any criticism of Labor and the entire refugee/indefinite detention will go down in global history as one of the worst infringements on humanity… and historians will not bother with the minute distinction between Labor or LNP on that repugnant debacle.

    Miriam, like you I do not understand how apparently intelligent people, such as Trish Corry, turn rabid at the slightest whiff of negativity towards their chosen political party. I get that extremists do (turn rabid), but I would not colour Trish as extremist and yet…

  236. Kaye Lee

    Trish has some great ideas.

    I remember when we were arguing about Adani once I asked her, as a local, for suggestions about other prosepective employment opportunities for the area and she came up with some great suggestions. I wish I could find them again because they would make a great article for discussion.

    If we could get rid of the party (and personal) angst, we could really be constructive about real solutions rather than worrying about campaigning tactics.

  237. Joseph Carli

    But Miriam and diannaart…Whilst I have many times winced at some Labor ineptness, in reality, THEY are the only realistic foil to the LNP bastardry..the ONLY foil..I have written on this and the other…and the only excuse I can find for the fumbling by both The Greens and Labor is because of the universality of education of that class that now manages BOTH parties…that “consciousness of kind” that tunnel-visions both parties into “middle-class manageable policies”..ie; they : The Educators..have conditioned those under their entrusted guidance to focus down only one or two channels…both quite easily controlled.

    https://freefall852.wordpress.com/2016/05/27/warming-the-seat-keeping-it-warm/

  238. Kaye Lee

    Once again Joseph, I disagree. You have a distinct thread of anti-intellectualism showing in your comments over time.

    The whole point of education is to get people to be critical thinkers, to question, to research, to analyse, to be innovaters. That is why I cringe at every call to “get back to basics”. Education is not about telling people what to think, it is about giving them the skills to allow them to think for themselves.

  239. diannaart

    “some Labor ineptness”

    I’m leaving this one for you, Miriam. I have to go wash my hair.

  240. Joseph Carli

    ” You have a distinct thread of anti-intellectualism showing in your comments over time.”…You see, Kay Lee..THIS is the presumption held close to the chests of many higher educated people …: That BECAUSE of their higher educated status..BECAUSE of their listed and certificated qualifications, registered in the faculty halls and University archives, THAT qualifies them to claim a seat on the grandstand of “Intelligence”..to be joined to that arm of civilisation exclusively titled :”The Intelegensia”…..well…BULLSHIT to that!…intelligensia??..if only!!

    I won’t go into the sooo many f*ck-ups of that class of elitism, ’cause I’d need the capicity of a 10gb external drive to list them all in alphabetical order!!

    Intelligensia!!!…what a laugh!!…and here we have a planet going to bust, not one economy sustainable nor one country save perhaps the Chinese commies with ANY intention of changing course from that chaos steered by the most well-educated and intelligent bozos the world has ever seen…….hold my sides while I groan in pain!….”intellectualism”.. oh spare me..

    I’ve said it time and again..: Too much white-collar , not enough blue.

  241. johno

    Too much white and blue, not enough green.

  242. helvityni

    Sorry Kaye, but that was a bit too harsh…

  243. Kaye Lee

    I would rather get my advice about climate change from scientists than the boys in the bar. I would rather get my medical advice from the doctor than the girls at the bowling club. I would rather a qualified electrician fix my wiring than my husband ferret around in the roof with a torch and a screwdriver.

    A university degree should not be cause for disparagement any more than the lack of one. It is not about intelligence. It is about the appropriate knowledge and training for the task at hand.

  244. Joseph Carli

    ” I would rather get my advice about climate change from scientists than the boys in the bar.”…Let’s just use this one for an example, eh?…”boy in the bar”, indeed!..I used to argue the layperson’s assessment of evidence for climate change with that bozo ; Jennifer Marohasy on her site..using examples from the landscape around here in the mallee…I did not refer to links or quotes from any scientists…I didn’t need them..as do not most of humanity…the science may cross the “t’s” and dot the ‘i’s”, but for the observant layperson, the observant eye is enough to convince..
    Here is one reply I exchanged with Marohasy on the very subject..this must have been around 2013..

    Jennifer’s comment..:

    ” As regards your comment that few people in Australia would believe temperatures have actually been falling, of course the experts have been telling us its getting hotter and hotter and most people are inclined to believe the experts. It makes for an easier life.

    Interestingly many broad acre farmers in the Murray Darling would tell you the incidence of late season frost is increasing.”

    My reply:

    Jennifer..While I have no reason to doubt your research value and the figures and I have to respect your honest intent….I have up till now, declined to comment on the post as it is of such a technical side of the debate that I do not feel qualified TO comment….But as you stated in the above quote about the “belief” of “few people in Australia…” , I would like to shove in my twopence worth, not from a “collegiate” point of analysis, but from the “fellowship” angle..for, whilst I have been reading those erstwhile points made by various parties above, to this amateur, the voluminous use of the anagram makes the discussion look like a “J-Lo cover of a R.E.M. song “…and then descends into the kind of argument between two cooks as to how much Tabasco to put in the chili-con-carne!….so for those of us who like our food “plain” perhaps I can make a couple of observations..; “from the field” so to speak.

    I live in the Sth. Aust’ Murray Mallee…last summer we had a scorcher…and dry?!…as dry as an Arab’s fart!….the temps’ were for many days over forty deg’..as you know..the earth as bare and as dry as bubbies just powdered bum and at the bottom of those post-holes I have been digging, it showed there was “nothing in the bank”…as a matter of fact, our mains water-pipe from the source to the house travels about half a kilometer 8″ (200mm.) underground..it got so hot that by the ” cold” tap itself, you could not stand under the shower…Now..it’s winter..we’ve had very good starter rains, the grass and weeds have never looked better..there have been light frosts the last couple of days so the air is quite cold…but I am still picking mushrooms!…not “toadies” nor the tripping kind, but nice fat edibles….I ask this of you Jennifer, as you are a Biologist…and I am just a grown up who remembers when he was a kid there being a kind of “mushroom season”, just after the first good rains of Autumn, while the ground was still warm and the earth moist and we would hurry out to pick them, because the “season” usually only lasted a couple of days and then they were gone…..but now, and I remember last year too..I am picking mushies right through the year…it can’t be that the air is warm (1deg. or less at night) can it be that the fungi has adapted (I do notice a greater variety these days)? or is it that the ground below my feet has retained some of that blistering heat for just that much longer so the it has changed the micro-biology of the soil?

    The mushies, by the way are delicious!…I remember my mother cooking them in a skillet of butter and placing them on a lightly toasted slice of white “tank-loaf”…ahh!..one of the delightful memories of my youth! “

  245. Joseph Carli

    The Collegiate and the Fellowship..

    “I have been to several environmental themed workshops this last couple of weeks and I have noticed there is a pattern of procedure at each of them.
    It works like this…:

    You have the speaker / expert and you have the audience. The speaker comes to talk armed with research notes , topic-cred’ and a kind of bestowed authority. The audience consists largely of a group of lay-amateur environmentalists, strangers to each other who attend out of interest or for social connectivity. Some have collected “on-the-ground” statistics and anecdotal evidence.

    So when these two disparate groups meet, there is a kind of “disconnect” rather than a “connect” of interest. The clash between the “collegiate” of professionals who have difficulty accepting any “on ground” evidence without acceptable research backing….and fair enough. On the other hand you have the lay-people who have witnessed with their own eyes, certain events which are in contradiction to some accepted orthodoxy….so a conflict of interpretation exists between the “collegiate” of insiders and the “fellowship” of observers.

    Usually, the lay people give ground out of respect to the credentials of the experts….but still retain a degree of suspicion that lays dormant till more convincing evidence is forthcoming….after all, one has to believe what one sees with one’s own eyes! Now this, is the moment where a degree of foresight could best be implemented. Foresight to forestall any doubting and disconnect between the parties, because as much as one or the other resents it, each is wedded to the other by necessity…a) the “volunteers” out of a desire to gain knowledge with little cost but maximun benefit to themselves and b) the collegiate out of the need to access, justify, peer-publish and prove the requirements of the stingy research grants.

    There is a problem arising here with a lack of sympathy on both sides of the “fence”..with the “collegiate”, there is a degree of impatience with what could be seen as time wasting listening to and collecting unscientific and unstructured data that is of little or no use in research or field work. With the “fellowship”of amateurs, there is little understanding of the oversight of the direction, policy and funding of the professionals. That there is a strata of management above the collegiate that has performance-based criteria that they are expected to meet and funding reports expected to be written.

    So in essence , there are three strata of persons in the “game”…Higher management..The professional and.The lay-person. The professional is a little like the meat in the sandwich, with demands from above and below. A difficult situation indeed! However, at least they have some power to control procedure within the parameters of research and can have some freedom of movement within certain guidelines. The lay-person is at the mercy of their own intellectual and skills base and with something new to their experience like environmental monitoring, it can become a bridge too far! This is why they attend workshops, to glean some more nous in their observations…to try and target more accurately their subjects. In this there is huge respect for the credentials and authority of the “collegiate”. They are seen as a font of knowledge.
    Perhaps there could be more socialising BEFORE a workshop to help the shy or the doubtful get to know more of the intentions and interests of others also in attendance, perhaps breaking into small groups of strangers to each other so as to break the ice and introduce each other. After all, one thing is for certain…all are there for the same reason..; to protect and enhance the environment.”

    I wrote this as a workshop “aid” when I was a Landcare office part-time worker.

  246. diannaart

    None which fully explains Joseph’s knee jerk antipathy towards the Greens.

  247. Roswell

    Joe, you’re stereotyping people. Come on, you’re better than that.

    Where at first I picked that you were stirring people, I now, however, detect a bit of angst.

  248. Joseph Carli

    Roswell..have you read my above posts..I believe I defend my position in both..as to stereotyping, I’d refer you to Kaye Lee’s 1:01 pm comment if you want a example..

  249. Roswell

    Can’t see much wrong with Kaye’s comment. An expert is an expert, whether their training is via a degree, a trade, or through their job. Can’t argue with that.

    Some make bad decisions, but, for example, I don’t mistrust electricians because the one who came around to add a light on our veranda stuffed-up the job.

  250. Joseph Carli

    Roswell..In you keenness to clasp eagerly the last sentence of Kaye’s comment, you seem to have missed the first sentence about “boys in the bar”…about which I based my two comments…

  251. Kaye Lee

    I mentioned boys in the bar, girls at the club, and my husband in the roof.

    I fail to see your point.

  252. Miriam English

    Joe, you’re sounding like Harquebus. Things are not as bad as you think.

    Also, remember, it’s the scientists and intelligentsia who are trying very hard to stop climate change and the destruction of ecosystems. It’s the ordinary guys down the pub who don’t care: “What about our mining jobs?” or “I just want to drink my beer, don’t bother me with latte-drinking Greenies”, or “FOX and the Murdoch papers show climate change is fiction and we need to give the wealthy tax breaks — the poor are to blame for the position” and so on.

    Are you seriously suggesting that intelligence and educational level are a bad thing?

  253. Joseph Carli

    I will leave it rest there..

  254. Jaq

    You know, whether we agree or disagree on this page, argue analytically or with passion, its pretty clear to me.
    The intelligent people are HERE.
    What a goddamn bloody shame we dont have them LEADING US.

  255. corvus boreus

    So Joseph Carli reckons my contributions amount to ‘the pooling of a babe’s pap on a nursing breast’.

    I myself fully realize that my opinions, when proffered unsupported, amount to little more than such , which is why I tend to mostly stick to statements I can solidly back with verifiable facts, and part of why I often provide solid evidential links to support what I say.
    It is also why, when someone else makes a ‘factual’ statement about which I am uncertain, I make some effort to follow the information trail and ascertain the relative credibility of both claim and source.

    I am not so enamored of the flavor of my own regurgitated experiences, opinions and ‘feelings’ that I resent the nutritional inclusion of some broader education.

  256. Kaye Lee

    This has been an interesting discussion. The people who disparage the Greens talk about campaigning tactics and the importance of winning but avoid specific policy discussion.

    Trish said “This article and some of the comments take a very simplistic, cherry picked blinded view to what people see as the path of progress. The bit that includes hard work to bring people along and to win Govt to do it. ”

    Labor eventually saw the policies mentioned as “the path of progress” but they did not do the “hard work to bring people along”. You can’t bring people along to something you oppose. Which is my point. They followed the people.

    The Greens have policies that they believe are right for the nation. They don’t wait for focus groups to catch up before they adopt a policy. They take a stance and then doggedly explain why it is the right thing to do. And eventually, when their minders think it is safe, Labor might catch up.

    Do we want leaders who are more concerned about the right policy than the popular one? Do we want people capable of explaining why something should happen rather than reacting to polls?

    Labor has some good policies. If only they had courage.

  257. Mick Byron

    Kaye Lee
    How do you think, just as an example the NDIS reached conclusion?
    Gonski, the eradication of Work Choices, the National Ports Strategy the creation of 90 new Headspace sites creation of the worlds largest Marine Park Network the National Ports Strategy legislated equal pay for Social and Community workers , 45% increase .. I could go on all done with consultation with the main players.
    On other issues there is a need to implement then bring the public along GFC, BER, Murray Darling, the Apology, the Sorry etc
    I’m not sure how many average voters wanted a say in developing assetts write offs for small business,The Land Freight Strategy.Aviation White Paper.etc
    I’m sure you get the point
    Lots of things get done under Labor

  258. Kaye Lee

    I have little argument with that Mick. The list of achievements by the Gillard minority government especially are amazing, though many of them have since been trashed.

    But they leave holes for the Greens to fill. That is why I am asking them to consider those holes earlier.

  259. Roswell

    “Labor has some good policies. If only they had courage”.

    I’m a Labor voter and I agree with that.

    One. Hundred. Per cent.

  260. Kaye Lee

    Speaking of the Murray Darling, it seems to have been a spectacular failure. It’s all very well to have an idea but unless you listen to the independent experts instead of the industry bodies, and actively monitor progress and outcomes, it can result in an expensive waste of time (except for the farmers who have received $4 billion in subsidised irrigation infrastructure).

    https://theconversation.com/the-murray-darling-basin-plan-is-not-delivering-theres-no-more-time-to-waste-91076

  261. Mick Byron

    Roswell
    “Labor has some good policies. If only they had courage”
    The thing is to instigate any policies Labor must first win.
    It isn’t their job to cater to the 8 or 9 % of you who tend to lean Green or Greens supporters but to represent the broader community and in doing so get the magical 76 seats.
    My Branch is a classic example of that diversity with retirees,young people ,workers,unionists unemployed.,pensioners some LGBTI, a couple of Indigenous and some recent arrivals to the country.
    As you can imagine their view to what the ALP should be and should be doing is a pretty food melting pot of ordinary everyday Australians.
    Labor must also consider the fair % of voters who avoid politics like the plaque and only get interested a week or so before an election, if at all.

  262. diannaart

    Kaye Lee

    We are in the Age of Anti-Intellectualism – or the Dumb and Dumber Age.

    Hopefully we have reached the summit of nonsense with Trump. However, I believe we have a long way to go. Anti-intellectualism – which should really read as anti-education is being fed by both sides of the political divide. While we continue to slash public education from primary through to tertiary we are unlikely to see a change. Further education returns to being a privilege for the wealthy and any alternative views that were being contributed by lower income people have become a memory along with Whitlam.

    Convenient for the privileged to watch as lower income people sneer at each other for holding such pretensions as wanting further education.

  263. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    All of the things I mentioned had/have wide community support. They weren’t fringe or clique ideas from the far left.

    diannaart,

    Learning should be a lifetime pursuit, not a matter for division or derision. I don’t get the sneering either.

  264. Mick Byron

    Kaye LeeFebruary 5, 2018 at 12:20 pm

    “Speaking of the Murray Darling, ”
    You seem to totally overlook that we have had 6 years, where initially the Greens and then the LNP have set out to destroy what Tony Burke managed to achieve. A deal after 100 years of none

    ENVIRONMENT Minister Tony Burke has achieved a historic compromise to save the Murray-Darling river system, moving to end one of the nation’s most intractable conflicts by putting forward a blueprint to return water to the river without killing off farming communities in the nation’s food bowl.

    The Greens yesterday manoeuvred to torpedo the plan and force Labor back to the drawing board, but their attempt to spoil the compromise is expected to fail,

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/tony-burkes-blueprint-to-save-the-murray-darling-basin/news-story/c6fab5e27d3b00a567fb142610251357?sv=56044cde15b13905ad65fba89f3f9f0

  265. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    Once again, you don’t seem to care about the efficacy of the policy, just the politics. I don’t give a rats who did what. I am interested in the results and they are not good. Did you read the link?

    Your link is from 2012. Mine is from today. Yours is about an idea. Mine is about how that idea has delivered. Are Labor capable of reassessment?

  266. Miriam English

    Mick, I, and probably most people here, applaud Labor when they have good policies and do the right thing. Why would we not?

    That makes it all the more puzzling that fanatical Laborites don’t see the other sides of this topic…

    What do you do when Labor’s policies are wrong and when they do the wrong thing? Do you try to draw attention to the problem? Or do you turn a blind eye because you can’t criticise Labor?

    A third side of this is, what do you do when the Greens have good policies and do the right thing? Do you applaud other progressives fighting for a better society? Or do you want to tear them down because they are not Labor, so must by definition be the enemy?

    Perhaps you’ve noticed that I, and some others here are quick to disapprove of some things the Greens do, despite considering ourselves, if not actually Greens followers, at least people who find shelter under the policies promoted by the Greens (and the Reason Party, and some others).

  267. Miriam English

    I’m not a party person — never saw the sense in it. I’m a progressive. I want a good society to live in. If the Greens take us some of the way toward it, then great; if the Reason Party, then that’s wonderful; if the New Democracy Party, then that’s fantastic; if Labor then superb. I just want a good world.

    In a similar way I never saw myself particularly as an Australian, rather as a citizen of Earth. Why should I make a big thing of the accident of where I was born?

  268. corvus boreus

    I shun ‘pure’ party politics, mainly by reasonably well-informed preference..
    Partisan adherence to team, as part of branded flocks gathered.under colored banners, often leads to a collective tribal mentality that causes individual perceptional bias, which affects the ability to accurately assess and ad-judge observed situations.
    When barracking as part of a mob, we tend to automatically cry “FOUL!” when the ‘other side’ picks up a dropped ball, then turn a deliberate blind eye (often with silent smirk) when ‘our ‘own team’ blatantly cheats to get it back..
    I try to watch sports and politics as if were an impartial referee who tried to keep up with the basic rules.

  269. Miriam English

    diannaart, you mentioned education and anti-intellectualism. It is an interesting, and very puzzling thing. I wish I had an answer.

    Just today I was sent a post by a friend asking what my take on it was. It was a loopy comment saying the picture accompanying it was from the Hubble telescope, that it has NASA puzzled, and that some have christened it “Heaven’s Gate”. It took me just a couple of minutes of research to find out NASA wasn’t mystified, it wasn’t a picture from the Hubble Space Telescope, it was a work of digital art by Adam Ferriss, part of a series he calls “500 Years Away”.

    Often people point me to such things, asking my reaction. It usually takes me seconds or minutes to get to the real facts. It is astounds me that people are unable to question things and merely accept them at face value. (In exasperation, I asked my old girlfriend why can’t people research things? She answered that that person did… by asking me. 🙂 )

    I have a friend who I often help with his computer. He is not an unintelligent person, but he gullibly swallows any conspiracy theory offered to him, while rejecting any sensible explanations.

    We have, today, the most extraordinary access to knowledge, ever. Why are so many people so apparently unable to use it? Instead, they spread malicious gossip (the Greens supposedly targeting Labor, but not LNP), or plainly ridiculous rumor (the Heaven’s Gate absurdity above), or dangerously lunatic garbage (climate change denial).

  270. diannaart

    Oh, Miriam

    You have touched a nerve. Am in the middle of cooking dinner, however, will just say this my supply of patience is running ever lower – I just don’t have time to deal with idiots. In fact, my friends tell me I do not suffer fools. Actually I have all the time in the world for people who are genuinely having difficulties… I digress, in this amazing age where we can research to our hearts content while our eyes grow dim, there is no excuse for not fact checking anything.

    What happened to the enquiring mind?

    That’ll have to do for now – fish is burning.

    🙂

  271. Mick Byron

    Kaye LeeFebruary 5, 2018 at 2:56 pm

    Mick,

    “Once again, you don’t seem to care about the efficacy of the policy, just the politics. I don’t give a rats who did what. I am interested in the results and they are not good. Did you read the link?

    Your link is from 2012. Mine is from today. Yours is about an idea. Mine is about how that idea has delivered. Are Labor capable of reassessment?”

    Now come on, surely you are pulling my leg?
    Burke can up with an overall OK Murray Darling Plan which just happened to be in 2012 hence the link
    The Greens immediately tried to torpedo it and the LNP, mainly Nats and Barnaby have spent ever since undermining and smashing the 2012 Policy
    Are Labor capable of reassessment?”
    Of course they are but they need to be elected to remedy the damage.
    You are interested in the results and they don’t look good?
    The results are from 5 years of LNP smashing destroying and eliminating what was decent policy.
    How is that Labors fault
    Labor gave NBN, NDIS, Medicare, Gonski LNP have set about destroying it from the day they were elected

    “Once again, you don’t seem to care about the efficacy of the policy, just the politics.”
    Tell me how to take the politics out of the damage done to NBN and others as mentioned

    ” I don’t give a rats who did what”

    I bloody do,
    I want Medicare, a decent NBN ,a Social safety net, workers rights and the myriad of other policy the LNP have set to destroying
    You mightn;t give a rats but I do

    I see I’m wasting my time here

  272. Miriam English

    Mick, you keep saying the Greens destroyed Labor’s Murray Darling plan. That oversimplifies what happened to create a narrative where Labor are the heroes and Greens are the evil-doers. Surely you must suspect your own motives a little there. Do you have some measure of self-awareness in this?

    The Greens wanted more water reserved for the environment. Labor wanted more for the farmers and industry. That isn’t “torpedoing” things. That’s the Greens doing their job of trying to advocate for the environment. Without the environment we’re all screwed. Farmers and townships don’t manage well when everything turns to salt-desert. It would have benefitted Labor to have stood up to the state governments who had caused the problems in the first place. I don’t see how the Greens destroyed things when it was the state governments bickering and fighting that actually made it all fall apart. It smacks a little of rewriting history for the purpose of demonising the Greens.

    As for your parting shot at Kaye, you are (deliberately?) misinterpreting what she said. She wants the same things you want, just that she doesn’t care who gets them done or who takes credit for it. You’re turning her meaning around to make it sound like she doesn’t want those things. That’s dishonest.

  273. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I acknowledge this is Kaye’s article and she had the good sense to see how Labor needs the Greens no matter what anybody says.

    We want GOOD policies with GOOD follow-up procedures to make those GOOD policies happen for the vulnerable, the unemployed workers, the workers on insecure casualisation/non-penalty rates/automation, etc,etc.

    The Greens’ knowledge of innovative social justice policies for vulnerable groups in our society ie Newstart recipients; DSP recipients kicked off DSP benefits; Sole Parents kicked off the Sole Parents’ Benefit and lumped onto mind-numbing Newstart; Environmentalists who heroically keep fighting for OUR World; Refugee Advocates who are just damned decent people. The people concerned and their advocates ALL deserve medals.

    These are the People who Labor must acknowledge that the Greens can reach and those people (pragmatically speaking) are NOT insignificant in numbers.

    Labor must find its soul again and the BEST, IMMEDIATE WAYS of doing THAT are to build bridges with The Greens AND other Progressives, so altogether they can define and prioritise issues that need addressing and collaborating with each other about how to best meet all those demands.

  274. Michael

    Kaye’s essay = 732 words
    276 Comments = 29,591 words (including name, date, time)

    Where are we now?

  275. Miriam English

    Well put, Jennifer.

    Done in a smart way, building connections with the Greens once again (and other progressive parties) would allow Labor to draw upon many more people than they can by going it alone. Alienating large numbers of progressive voters by demonising the Greens and by moving further to the Right can only end up hurting them. Australia is a progressive country still, even despite all the propaganda from USA and the hateful garbage being spewed by the Christian Right.

    Labor looks like it is playing a game of attempting to push the LNP to the extreme-right so that the LNP end up losing their voting base. Theoretically it sounds smart, but they don’t count on Murdoch’s criminally untruthful news-media dragging people with it into far-right lunacy too. Labor are actually legitimising some of the craziness coming from the right-wing and helping to shift Australian attitudes to be more divisive, hateful, and right-wing (e.g. poisonous racism, anti-refugee feelings, scorn for the poor and unemployed, homophobia, etc.). They could instead be working to stabilise society by rebuilding connections with the progressives — their traditional voting base.

  276. Miriam English

    Michael, perhaps on the surface it may appear that those who agree are more convinced and those who disagree remain entrenched, but I hope some in the middle have been stirred by things they hadn’t considered or known.

    I listened to a talk by Sam Harris a while back, in which he was saying that it often feels impossible arguing against religious fanatics, but what people generally don’t know is that he receives grateful letters every day from people who have abandoned their religion after hearing his carefully reasoned talks on its dangers and absurdities. Richard Dawkins has said the same: that in the face of the apparently impossible job of arguing against religion he receives a constant flow of letters from people thanking him for helping them on their journey away from religion.

    I am certain the discussions here do something similar. They may not win over the hard-line extremists — those folks were probably never going to hear anyone else anyway — however promoting wider views, fresh approaches, and more thoughtfulness must be a good thing. I’m sure it has a healthy effect on more people than you can know.

  277. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    I am not your enemy. I have worked very hard for years to try to get a Labor government elected. I cannot begin to estimate how much time and effort I put into this. It is incredibly frustrating and disappointing that, whenever I make suggestions on how Labor might improve, on where I see issues, on how they might increase their appeal, which is the only way they can win, I get labelled and attacked.

    I’ll say it again….I love my children dearly but that does not make them immune from criticism or expectations for them to do better.

    Stop being so defensive. It isn’t necessary. I am not attacking Labor. I am trying to work with you.

    PS I am still pissed off that you dumped Julia Gillard and you really must nip this latest bout of factional fighting in the bud. Don’t do it to us again.

  278. Kaye Lee

    For example, in Labor’s new found hesitant opposition to Adani, they never mention climate change. “It doesn’t stack up economically. They may have falsified evidence (again). We won’t give them government money”

    Where is the real discussion about the monstrous effect it would have on the world’s climate?

    I get the jobs thing. We need to hear specific ideas about alternate employment for fossil fuel workers, and for everyone else who is having their employment disrupted by a changing world.

    Be firm. Adani can’t happen because of global warming. That decision made, you can get constructive about the next step.

  279. Kaye Lee

    And another thing,if you are going to argue against company tax cuts, stop always just talking about “the big end of town” and start talking about the fact that the effective rate of company taxation is 10.4% which is already very competitive.

    Bill pointing out that profits of 20% led to wage rises of 2% is good. Increased company profits has led to increased CEO bonuses, increased share dividends, increased buybacks, but not increased wages.

    Point out that the jobs growth is largely due to the NDIS ramping up which is nothing to do with the Coalition’s management.

  280. corvus boreus

    Michael,
    ‘Where are we now?’
    Pretty much where we were at the start, which is the nature of most online political discussions.
    Some inquiring minds have learned a little during the exchanges along the way, others have spoken much but listened little.

    For example, I am now a bit better informed of political machinations surrounding the ALP’s 2012 Murray Darling basin plan.
    Labor proposed a ‘feedback flow’ of 2750 gigalitres (+ up to 500 additional g-l from ‘irrigation initiatives’).
    The Greens tried to hold out for a more environmentally generous 4000 g-l return (according to credible scientific input, the bare minimum amount of additional water required to alleviate the worst problems in that river system).
    The Coalition pushed for upstream farmers to retain most of what they currently take.
    In the end, after accusations, negotiations and a failed motion of ‘dis-allowance’, the Labor plan passed, and, since it seemed to please practically no-one, was probably a sub-optimal but politically realistic compromise, albeit one that has subsequently suffered legislative sabotage.under succeeding coalition governments.

    Back to the question of whether any significant shifts have occurred since Kaye Lee penned her piece
    .
    Sadly, probably the main movement of mind and matter to occur has been that one party fanatic (possibly a former contributor), in a sorely butt-hurt state over the fact that critique and criticism of their party’s policy performance was permitted to occur on an independent website, has decided to devote their energy towards using Facebook to stir up hatred against the AIMN.

  281. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    corvus, I am glad your knowledge grows with every discussion we have. I would suggest that is the case for all of us, who concentrate as we read.

    With respect, I consider this is the catalyst for more informed responses to the issues that surround us. Raised awareness and understanding can’t help but make us more enlightened and more prepared to do whatever we can in our own lives to respond.

    I share Miriam’s glass half full vision that our input does matter.

  282. diannaart

    Just arrived in my inbox this morning (well yesterday, but I am on M.E. time), the Greens campaign for the seat of Batman (in Melbourne, because of Feeney – to prompt a few memories).

    What are the “treacherous” Greens doing to Labor?

    Glad I asked.

    Here’s their latest “attack” on Labor:

    This is our chance to send a strong message to Labor. A vote for the Greens means:

    • An end to the offshore detention of asylum seekers and refugees;
    • Real action on tackling climate change, by stopping Adani and transitioning to renewable energy;
    • Tackling housing affordability; and
    • Building an economy that works for all of us.

    From Reservoir to Clifton Hill, and from Northcote to Bundoora, we have an opportunity to lead with courage, compassion and action. As someone who lives in Preston and has campaigned passionately for our community over the past 30 years, I will be a strong, independent, local voice for all of us in Batman.

    http://alexbhathal.wp.greens.org.au/

    OMG – how dare they? The Greens having the sheer temerity to highlight issues the Greens will campaign on, issues that, in a sane world, would complement Labor’s policies.

    But, not a sane world is it?

  283. diannaart

    I am sad to hear that AIMN has been targeted for simply presenting a wide range of views – I do not always agree with every author, but I acknowledge a diverse range of opinion is, as others have noted, where we learn and, hopefully, find a common purpose.

    We have watched Britain and the USA, where ill informed rebellion has resulted in absurdities like Brexit and idiot-child Trump. Learning means not repeating everything our allies do, but ensuring we DO rebel, but not by destruction, rather building, working together – FFS! It’s not rocket surgery! We have a common enemy and that is the ideology of the far-right, we know where unregulated capitalism leads, we know how to keep capitalism in check with government regulation.

    I recall an old saying which I will paraphrase to fit the times:

    Capitalism is a good tool, but a poor boss.

  284. Mick Byron

    diannaartFebruary 6, 2018 at 12:37 pm
    SO this is the Greens campaign?

    “This is our chance to send a strong message to Labor.”

    Don’t you see the irony?
    This is a Federal byelection.
    Batman is a Federal Seat.
    The LNP are the Government
    Malcolm Turnbull is the P.M.

    I missed completely the
    “This is our chance to send a strong message to the Liberal National Party Government.”

    who, until 2019 or when Labor defeat them, are responsible for

    “An end to the offshore detention of asylum seekers and refugees;
    • Real action on tackling climate change, by stopping Adani and transitioning to renewable energy;
    • Tackling housing affordability; and
    • Building an economy that works for all of us”

    Do they not understand the role and ability of Oppositions in formulating legislation and Law?
    or
    Don’t they really care what the LNP are up to and just want a kick at Labor.

    Very telling campaign leaflet diannaart

  285. Kaye Lee

    Mick,

    It may have escaped your notice that the Libs aren’t running a candidate. The contest is between Labor and the Greens (not sure who else is running but I haven’t heard anyone else mentioned as a serious contender).

  286. Mick Byron

    Still a Federal by election with National ramifications and Kearney and Shorten are addressing Federal issues
    Do you think the Greens will mention them at all or would that disadvantage any “deals” that are being mentioned on social media between Greens and Liberals.
    Surely Turnbull has the answers to the Asylum seeker issue NOW, when I assume it needs to be answered or do the poor buggers just sit and wait for a Labor Government in 2019 for the Greens to prove some point and by then Adani would have a huge head start
    This is a bit like the QLD State election where Greens hammered Labor and gave Nats/Libs/PHON an almost free ride

  287. diannaart

    Thank you Kaye Lee

    For pointing out the bleeding obvious to most people – apparently it is treacherous for the Greens to even mention Labor, even in a poll which does not even involve the LNP.

    I am hearing the words, freedom of speech, apparently such privilege is only merited by Labor and the LNP.

    Who would ever have even dreamed such an absurdity? Labor telling the Greens what to say and when to say it. Mad world.

  288. Miriam English

    Deals? Boy, you’re paranoid Mick.

  289. Miriam English

    https://greens.org.au/no-deal

    There is no deal

    Fact: There is no preference deal with the Liberal Party.

    “It is disappointing that the Labor Party and the Murdoch media are spreading lies to scare progressive voters.

    “As Australian Greens Co-Convenor Giz Watson said in a statement on March 8th, “There is no deal. This is nothing more than a cynical attempt to throw mud at the Greens and hope some of it sticks.” That’s still true today.

    “Unlike the Labor Party, the Greens make decisions around preferences, policy and candidates with our membership. We disagree with the Liberal Party on almost everything. It’s the Labor Party that have a long history of swapping preferences with the Liberals.

    “The Greens are the only party standing up to the Liberal Party, and that’s why Labor is scared. The Labor Party has voted with the Liberal Party six times more than the Greens have.

    “If they are scared they will lose votes in progressive seats like Grayndler and Batman the answer is not to make up lies about the Greens, it is for the Labor Party to work out what they stand for and start standing up to the Liberal Party.

    Frequently asked questions

    1 // Have the Greens ‘done a deal’ with the Liberal Party on preferences?

    Answer: No. We have not done a deal with the Liberal Party or any other party.

    “Unlike the other parties, our preferences are determined by the membership — not factional powerbrokers. Our members believe in welcoming people who seek asylum, strong action on global warming and tackling inequality.

    2 // Will the Greens form government with the Coalition?

    Answer: We disagree with the Coalition on nearly everything so it would be unthinkable to support them in government. The Greens are the real opposition to the Liberal agenda. In fact, the Labor party has voted with the Coalition six times more than we have. The most likely coalition is between the Liberal and Labor parties — they have more in common with each other than the Greens do with either of them.

    3 // What about “open tickets”?

    Answer: Our starting point has always been that people should vote 1 Greens and then preference how they want. People, not parties, should determine preferences.

    “Our default position is to let people allocate their own preferences because we think voters are wise enough to do so. This has been the case since Bob Brown was leader.

    “It’s disappointing that the Labor party don’t think voters are smart enough to direct their own preferences in the House or the Senate.

    4 // Why have the Liberals agreed with the Greens on some recent policies?

    “The Greens put policy ahead of politics, which means we will always support good reforms (… especially when they were our reforms in the first place!)

    “It’s not often that the Liberal Party and the Greens agree, in fact 94 per cent of the time we vote against the Coalition (that’s compared to the almost 40 per cent of the time the Labor Party agrees with them!) “

  290. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Mr Byron,

    the Greens need to spell out what is worth fighting for, so that Labor will show the requisite leadership needed to deserve the title of the Alternative Government. That’s why Labor needs the Greens.

    As we have all said numerous times, the LNP don’t figure in that thinking of Progressive policies because they are ignorant luddites. Who in their right minds would want to have anything to do with them?

  291. Miriam English

    Greens and LNP agendas align just 7% of the time.
    Labor and LNP agendas align nearly 40% of the time.

    Why in dog’s name does Mick have it fixed in his head that the Greens are working with the LNP?
    It looks a lot more like Labor are working with the LNP. (I don’t actually believe they are; I’m just saying on appearances it looks more likely… at least I hope it’s not so. A lot of their more fanatical members would be mortified. Well, the ones who took their blinders off long enough to see it.)

  292. Kaye Lee

    Mick is angry that the Greens aren’t spending more time fighting the Libs (though I am not sure that is completely true) but look at how fixated Labor is on fighting the Greens.

  293. Mick Byron

    “Mick is angry that the Greens aren’t spending more time fighting the Libs”
    Bloody oath I am.
    Have you even bothered to check out the campaigns so far in Batman.
    Labor stuck into the LNP
    Greens stuck into Labor

    Now I know I’m wasting my time as I’ll just get branded a rusted on, but I do so openly and I’m OK with that.
    Best I cease and desist or I may find myself the next Trish Corry

  294. Kaye Lee

    “Despite Ms Bhathal’s absence, the Greens have hit the campaign trail, focusing on national issues such as the Adani coalmine, ­climate change, electoral reform, energy policy and asylum-seekers.

    Meanwhile, the Opposition Leader and Ms Kearney promised to tackle hip-pocket issues, including the cost of living, public education, energy policy and medical insurance.”

    Seems fair to me. Both parties have good points to argue. The Greens are highlighting where they may differ from Labor because it is Labor they are running against in the seat.

    And can we please stop this pretence that there is some sort of cabal here that do group attacks on people. It is silly rot. People speak for themselves. Trish is not a victim. Her approach can be provocative at times.

  295. Miriam English

    Mick, I think you’ll find that most people here like Trish, even though she spits blood at the Greens and tends to be a little thin-skinned and combative at times. When she isn’t venting at the Greens she generally speaks good sense and is respected for that. She means well, and is knowledgeable, though sadly she easily slips into hostility. Her articles here have often been very interesting.

    I don’t know why you think you’re wasting your time… unless you have no intention of learning anything. I’ve learned plenty so far in this discussion.

  296. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    This article is not about Trish. It’s about Labor needing the Greens.

    The ALLiance is bigger than any one of us and We need each other to succeed against the LNP losers and Neoliberalism.

  297. johno

    Amen to that Jennifer.

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