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Is it time to reconsider a Communist political agenda for Australia?

Communism in Australia has for a long time had to share the punishment stocks with that old mock of shame of “The love that dare not speak its name” … being held up as almost heinous a crime as sexual predatory behaviour. But why? … After all, it is no more than another political possibility in management of a country.

Consider these latest scandals concerning the banking/financial sector … the crimes were of the grubbiest, the most mean in both penny-pinching and spirit of the most elderly and the most vulnerable … and then there are those other associated arms of conglomeracy: The energy sector, communications and allied device manufacturers, there is the minerals industry with the coal lobby going flat out trying to both delay the closing down of a dirty industry until the biggest players can offload their stranded assets or to corrupt an already corrupt political group to “keep the home fires burning” and delay much needed climate change legislation. There is the corp-agriculture sector with its mega hedge-fund management takeovers of water licences and working with those same banks toward pricing the smaller family farms out of business. There is the mega online retail and marketing business going flat-strap with minimal employment or wages/conditions killing the small and big high-street retailers and putting all those employees out of work.

Then there is real-estate, pay-rates, conditions of employment if and when one gets a half decent or serious job that calls for your presence on the job for more than one hour a week … no hour-guaranteed employment contracts that keep a person hanging on the thread of a “promise” without commitment for that day’s work and then on a pay-rate that would drive Scrooge McDuck to shame! And don’t even mention super, sick or holiday pay … and for the love of God don’t get pregnant!

Let’s be honest and realistic about this whole capitalist corporation political system … You could put any of those aforementioned corporations and cabals up before a Royal Commission and they would be as guilty as the banks with corruption, bribery, swindling, gouging and any other adjective descriptive criminality that it is possible to think of or mention … and then we get people saying that Capitalism is the best you can expect as a social system.

And so we have the cheer squad for capitalist enterprise saying that this is the perfect platform for anyone to get a life and become one of the top earners … the top 1%; you … there in the crowd! … perhaps it is your turn for the spot on the dais of success! Get real … get a life … there’s only one way to the top of the wealth pile if you don’t start with old family money or networks and that is by subterfuge of operating in a speculative, quasi criminal operation … like the above mentioned … or you could be a creative, tech’ genius? But that’s not really you, is it?

So, having got the “against” out of the way … let’s see what’s the positives for the possibility of a re-run of the communist manifesto.

Here are some examples of the Australian Communist Party Policies for 1960:

Monopolies Dominate

Only 104 men from 60 millionaire families in Australia direct 249 companies whose capital is valued on the stock exchange at £2075 million, These monopolies — Coles, Myers, Wool-worths, C.S.R., the banks and insurance companies, the breweries and others — dominate ail spheres of Australian life. Starting on a loan from the Commonwealth Bank, in 10 years General Motors-Hoidens has returned to its American owners ; $87 million in profits white increasing its assets by £70 million, Yet this company stands down 8,400 employees, causing them and their families dire distress in order to save a miserable £300,000.

Broken Hill Proprietary, Australia’s most powerful total monopoly, last year made a net profit of £15 million. In the same year it handed out to share-holders free share holdings worth about 150 miIIion.

Higher Living Standards and Security for the Working People to combat the growing economic crisis, to increase purchasing power find jobs for the unemployed, the Communist Party calls for:

Higher wages, a 35-hour working week, equal pay for women and higher rates for young workers.

• Federal and State Government co-operation in stabilisation schemes for each farm industry, to provide a guaranteed price to all working producers covering the cost of production for an amount of produce up to that necessary to provide a living income.

• Reduced taxation on low incomes and higher taxation on the wealthy. Abolition of all forms of indirect taxation or articles of mass consumption.

• Curbs on profiteering monopolies such as legislation to prevent takeovers, strict price controls, capital gains and excess profits tax; reduction of interest rates on hire purchase, housing and farm loans, and nationalisation of the biggest monopolies such as B.H.P., G.M.H. and others.

(Here … it’s somewhere in this extraordinary index of papers, books and writings … I can’t find the exact docco again).

Hey! … I would say the above is just the solution we need today! … and this was way back in 1960! … WTF! But there’s more!

In foreign affairs, Australia has no independent voice. The Menzies government slavishly follows the plans of the American billionaire war planners, and offends and threatens our Asian neighbours.

The 200 million (pounds) spent each year on so-called “defence” enriches the monopolies but contributes very little, if anything, to the security of our nation (ibid).

Need I go on?

As many of us have lamented so many times on this site and elsewhere that we are sick in body and soul of repeating ourselves and nothing happens. Well, folks … there you have it … it’s been said since 1960 and before and still the monopolies rule, the corporations get richer and more powerful, and the politicians keep marching out from under those same sandstone Latin-logo’d porticoes and very little changes. Now why do you reckon that is? Perhaps those capitalist promoters are right: This is the best we are going to get, so wrap up the banners, take down the barricades and shut-the-f#ck-up!

Communism? Hah! … who needs it?


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  1. Karen Kyle

    For Christ’s sake Joe are you nuts? For all the evils of Capitalism the free world was and is much better off than the Communist world ever was. To begin with our governments don’t murder millions of their own people to protect the bloody revolution. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot will go down in history right alongside Hitler as arguably the most evil men in history.

    And why even consider an outdated discredited 19th century ideology which was always founded on dubious assumptions, and which has proven to be wrong. The Soviet Union couldn’t survive economically to begin with. China has done better, but then again China has always used capitalism. At the height of the Cultural Revolution when people were beaten up in the streets and lives and reputations ruined for treading the “capitalist road” China had 10,000 Capitalists operating freely in China. Among other things they needed foreign exchange.

    As for corruption Joe are you telling me that Communist regimes were and are not corrupt? Are you telling me they did not parasitically steal all they could from the West,? The Soviets thought they had a moral obligation to steal from the West….money, technology, military developments anything useful.

    An Australian Communist Party would not have support and you would do the usual and fight among yourselves and then disintegrate. Go away Joe.

    And it isn’t just another political system. It is an entire way of life and way of thinking and it is death dealing. That’s why they have to brainwash their own people and kill millions. Because “thou shalt have no other God before me” the State. God help us.

  2. Joseph Carli

    Karen Kyle…Hello sweetie! (joke!) ….I’m not “telling you” anything..You see those policies from the Commies in 1960..What’s wrong with them?…You’ve seen the LNP policies from the last five years..what’s right with them…Ok..Labors got other policies…good for them..but why not Communism as another political player?..we got Hanson, The Shooters party, etc..and if they are not the most crazy loonies ever…AND KATTER!!…and we tolerate them..why not have the commies in the mix?…and don’t give me that ; “They’re all killers!!” bullshit…you just haven’t got the numbers for the millions that the West has overtly or covertly killed…that’s just bullshit! know it..we know it…so think of another bluff..we’re onto YOU.

  3. Karen Kyle

    You’re on to me? Well bully for you.

  4. Joseph Carli

    So what’s wrong with the policies, Karen? want to be taken seriously..tell us what’s wrong with those policies and why shouldn’t the Communist Party be reconsidered as a legitimate force in Oz politics once more?

  5. New England Cocky

    @Karen Kyle: Uhm ….. Australia had a Communist Party until the mid 80s, then it disbanded because of the fall of communism in the USSR.

    Australian unions were often/usually staffed by card-carrying members of the Communist Party, and did an excellent job representing the best interest of the workers. The “sellout” came in the 80s with “The Accord”, a con job foisted upon workers often by union delegates preaching moderation, especially of wage claims, when the bosses were ripping off the system with expense accounts, cars and every other possible financial extraction.

    Certainly, every elite maximises the personal pecuniary gains for at least the inner sanctum of leadership. Look at the Pope, Communist China (PRC), banks in the USA (United States of Apartheid), conservative politicians in England, and the many far right Liarbral Notional$ politicians with their snouts down deep into the Australian Parliamentary Allowances Scheme.

    But a communist revolution in Australia?? Naw, it would get in the way of my surfing …..

  6. Joseph Carli

    NEC…Who’s talking about a revolution..Perhaps they could be voted in democratically..and with policies like those above…just refreshed a little from Pounds currency to Dollars..and they could be a shoe-in!…after all, If something like The Greens can get a foot in the door . . . ?

    And like it or not..the Commies DO have solid cred’ in the political world.

  7. Richard Kleinbergs

    Don’t worry Joe, Karen is just one of the many who have been so immersed in the ubiquitous propaganda of the capitalist system they will deny that there IS any propaganda and conditioning.
    Probably never read any ‘history’ other than that spoonfed to her from the western powers and no understanding of anything not from mass media.
    One of the basic differences between communism and our state capitalism is that communism encourages learning and thinking whilst this system suppresses it (look at the response to the student’s strike for climate action).
    As for me, bring on the revolution (except Aussies are too pathetic, need to be more like the French)

  8. DrakeN

    For Karen Kyle et al – can you please make reference to any society where communism, in its true form, has ever actually been attempted successfully.
    Possibly, the fabled Jesus got closest in his attempts, but even he failed in the face of human greed and stupidity.

  9. Karen Kyle

    Communism encourages learning and thinking? You have to be joking. Communism puts a full stop to thinking. What do you think the dissenters in the SU were on about? Why do Communist regimes blast non stop propaganda through loudspeakers all day every day.

    Mamoud Abbas the leader of the Palestinian Authority did a Phd at a Soviet University. He wrote a dissertation which denied the Holocaust and later turned it into a book. I think it was called “The Other Side” He was awarded a Phd for this blatant rewriting of history and it caused him embarrassment in later years. That was the standard of Soviet Education, all bent and twisted lies in the service of the Communist regime. Go away.

  10. Joe Carli

    Drake…can “et al” please make reference to any Capitalist, Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Rosicrucian, colonialist, tribal society in “its true form” ever actually been attempted successfully?…Sleep, I hear is the best form of social success!

    And why not Communism alongside those other political parties that run for office..if they ran with the above policies, I’d vote for them!…and why not?..When was the last time any of us got a decent shake and NOT a shake-down from the banks….or the energy providers..? When was the last time you got some cheap shopping in the fruit and veggies line?…or childcare, or fuel for the family Ford?…when was the last time your pay-packet allowed you that bit of extra cash to put away for a rainy day?
    Why DO we put up with these corporations ripping us off to their hearts content while the authorities in place to stop that sort of thing do nothing worth while?…
    Hey….we know why…..we’ve known why for a very long time…We know the crooks and how they look..we know a swindle when we see one…we know why honest people like Marty Fels isn’t in a position of authority any more and was “edged” from the ACCC…we all know ….we just don’t want to admit we know, because if we did..all at the same time..rather than edge and skirt around the criminality, the whole she-bang would come down and we would rather have tyranny and serfdom than uncertainty…well correct was Gibbon when he stated..;

    “A nation of slaves will deem magnanimous the tyrant who in with-holding his hand from supreme cruelty, dispenses equal pain in small doses”

    Indeed..we don’t want choice..we want a good collective kick up the arse!

  11. Shaun Newman

    Joe, I don’t know about communist but certainly, a democratic socialist agenda is favored by 60% of under 35s in Australia if the polls can be believed, they are pissed off with the excesses of capitalism because they can see the absolute unfairness in the system.

  12. Joseph Carli

    ” He was awarded a Phd for this blatant rewriting of history and it caused him embarrassment in later years. “…well, that’s interesting, Karen…I believe there are quite a few text-books that were distributed to schools in Australia that declared that Aust’ was ; “Terra Nullius”….and any indigenous peoples here just waived their rights for country, their livelihood, their children, their ancestry and their spiritual dignity…and those “history writers” haven’t yet suffered any embarrassment at all!!
    You see…you don’t need “Communist Tyranny” to do a damn good white-wash of history..our Democracy gives EVERYONE a chance to lie like pigs in shite!
    Even YOU!!

  13. Joseph Carli

    Ah, Shaun..we all know the Commies will never get into power in Australia..I’m just proposing the idea of them having political representation…I’ve got no portfolio of properties I need to worry about, nor super’ investments..just the aged pension and THAT is pathetic!..Mind you , a good dose of the ol’ Joe S’ would put the scares up a few of those snivelling centerists!

  14. Zathras

    History has shown that Communism typically gains power not from the ballot box but by the overthrow of oppressive right-wing regimes where gross social and financial inequality and exploitation are common.

    The harder the pendulum is pushed to the right the further it will swing back to the left.

  15. Diannaart

    Communism as we have seen thus far has failed, the top skimmed the greatest wealth, the other 90% were left to queue for bread.

    Capitalism as we are living with is failing, the top skimmed the greatest wealth, the other 90% left to queue for underpaid jobs.

    There is a better way than the stultifying binary of either/or, as Shaun Newman has stated; Democratic Socialism.

    Neither the far left autocratic Commos nor the autocratic Cappos deserve much by way of political representation.

    However, a diverse mix of views is better, not perfect, arguing for perfect is like waiting for Godot.

  16. Matters Not

    Re some comments from above:

    will go down in history … never read any ‘history’ other than … Good history of … this blatant rewriting of history … those “history writers” … good white-wash of history … History has shown …

    So I’m tempted to ask – What is this history of which you speak? Has it been defined? Where is it to be found? Why was it written? Who wrote it? (Or doesn’t that matter?) When was it written? And so on.

    More than 50 years ago, E H Carr, (a well-known authority on the history of Soviet Russia), attempted to answer those questions in a relatively short book entitled – What is History? . And while the theorising about the writing of history has moved on, it’s a good place to start, in my opinion.

    Worth a read. But only if you want to think about the task of writing history. And its pitfalls.

  17. James Lawrie

    If you can’t tell the difference between Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism, please don’t comment

  18. Joseph Carli

    ” Communism as we have seen thus far has failed, “…..Ah!..the absolute finality of it all!…Spoken like a failed cake maker…: “Cake making, as we have seen thus far…has failed…We shall now revert to purchasing our confectionery from “The Cheesecake Shop”…..
    Surely such absolutes could best be reserved for systems that have NO lasting evidence of current Celtic Tribal sacrifices or Druidism as a practicing religion?
    Communism in both Russia and China and let’s also include Cuba, has evolved…Perhaps we can also make the observation that Capitalism in ANY impoverished nation….has not!…..

  19. Shaun Newman

    Joe, Democratic Socialism as practiced in Nordic countries could and would work in Australia, I not your comment about old Joh’ the basic difference between this extremist capitalism we have witnessed in the past 5 years in Australia and DS practiced in Nordic countries is that in the Nordic countries multinational corporations are charged income tax whereas in Australia these corporations have so many taxable deductions that in a third of all cases they pay zilch, which to my mind is criminal.

  20. Peter F

    I expect that we all know the fact that in the 1961 federal election, the final seat declared, which gave victory to the Menzies Government, was won on a handful of Communist Party preferences.

    “After preferences Jim Killen won by a margin of just 130 votes, saving the Menzies government from what would have been a deadlock in the House of Representatives.

    Analysts determined it was a handful of communist preferences that made the difference.”

    Few of us knew the real threat carried out by ‘Reds under the bed’.

    “On the Saturday night of the 1961 poll all the commentators had me dead. On the Sunday they had me buried. By the following Thursday they were having a second look at the corpse. Then the resurrection began.”
    Jim Killen The Sydney Morning Herald, 21 May 1974, p. 6

  21. Diannaart


    Communism as we have seen thus far has failed

    Thus far, Joe, do try to keep up. Your insults are wholly unwarranted.

    However, as Shaun has noted there are successful examples of social democracies.

  22. Karen Kyle

    Yes the absolute finality of it all. The economics don’t work to begin with. Except in China. Because the Chinese are born Capitalists and they have never hesitated to use Capitalism whenever it suits them. They are still a nasty Totalitarian state though. Look what they have done to Tibet and at the moment they are putting their Muslim minority through the wringer.The entire rotten idea ought to be rejected,

  23. Joseph Carli

    ” Thus far, Joe, do try to keep up. “….Correct me if I am wrong, Di’…but I do believe that China…no matter how “authentic” the recipe, still is ruled by the “Communist Party”…….as is Cuba..and I believe in their heart of hearts..: Russia!….do try to keep up, Di’…

    PeterF…. one can make the odd mistake I’ll warrant!…and Killen wasn’t the worst of them.

  24. Joseph Carli

    Karen…The YOUR book ..may be true capitalists, but considering the LNP’s threat to force divestment onto energy companies and surveillance onto the rest of us, I’d say that there is still a “bit of red” in the LNP…wouldn’t you?

  25. Joseph Carli

    Hey, you knockers!…Go look at those 1960 policies and tell me what’s wrong with them! You could put those policies up today and they’d be right on the political money…so what’s the prob’?…Now..I confess to never voting for the Communist Party..they weren’t much of a consideration when I came of age to vote..but by jingo…those policies above are little rippers and I see that most of them now are in Labor’s agenda..and good on if we can just go that extra yard. . .

  26. Michael Taylor

    Karen, I do believe you’re confusing Communism with Red Communism. The absolute rule of the authoritarian government of Russia and China are the latter.

  27. Oscar

    The only good thing to come out of China is Confucius.

  28. Joseph Carli

    ” The only good thing to come out of China is Confucius.”…I cannot be sure, but I suspect Confucius wasn’t that keen on travelling and perhaps never let the home county…But hey!…Let’s not criticise those millions of Chinese students and tourists that grace our shores and empty their wallets into our economy…That’s not …TOO…bad a thing, eh?..
    And I for one,as a purchaser of power tools did once much appreciate that “Two power tools for the price of one” deal with every purchase of a “Global Machine Company” drill press….I now have five drill-presses and a host of industrial vacuum cleaners!

  29. Oscar

    So now you are reducing your argument down to a “Two power tools for one” deal. and being grateful for the Chinese cash up minions who dearn’t criticize their own government? Wow!

  30. Joseph Carli

    Oscar…with rhetorical argument, it is a failing to grasp at the most obvious straw..the “aside” I put up about the tools was really more a ; “not only but also” bonus flippancy…as the crab advised the fish…;”Don’t take every bait”…
    The reality today is that China is the rising world economic, military and diplomatic power to be negotiated with…it is ruled by The Communist Party in whatever formula they choose…we can throw stones at them, poke them with a stick or just ignore them….but at a guess..and basing it on a tad of history….I don’t think they are going to go you?

  31. John Kelly

    No, communism, or the communism practiced thus far, is not the answer. China is proving that as we speak. A communist government, that does not permit an alternative ideolgy that threatens its power, has embraced a western style market based capitalist system without the fear of losing control.
    That is an acknowledgement of the failure of communism. We don’t need that. We need a socialist capital system, where entrepreneurs are encouraged, but limited in their gains by guaranteed full employment of all those who want to work. Full employment, on a minimum wage with incentives, raises living standards.
    A government that issues its own currency should not be afraid to spend to the limits of its available resources. It should provide free health care and free education. It should be the employer of last resort, by creating the infrastructure needed to encourage the bold and the brave.
    It should NEVER borrow in a foreign currency, but foster manufacturing items sought by the rest of the world. It’s foreign currency reserves then gives it the power to buy what it needs
    It must always protect its most valuable resource…its people.

  32. helvityni

    ‘The only good thing to come out of China is Confucius.’

    WOW, Oscar !…the one and only thing….???

    ‘…. they are putting their Muslim minority through the wringer.’

    Karen Kyle, what’s Australia doing ?

  33. Joseph Carli

    John…while any reasoning and intelligent individual would concur with your thesis…I cannot help but I suspect YOU TOO did notice…that there is an awful lot of “should”s in that consensus….but then many of us, incl’ yourself would be inclined to ask..quite legitimately..; where are the : “have”s….?

  34. Joseph Carli

    Helvi’…I suspect that honest and intrepid explorer of the “Public Space” ; Gerard Oosterman would be inclined to agree with me re; the two for one machinery deal was one too good to pass up!

  35. helvityni

    I agree with Shaun

    Shaun Newman
    December 7, 2018 at 7:23 am

    See how the Nordic countries have dealt with the Sami people ( ABC news online), that’s just one of the many issues they have dealt sensibly….

  36. Karen Kyle

    helvityni…..we are not rounding up our Muslim citizens who have lived in the country for centuries and sending them in large numbers to specially built camps for re education and plenty of beatings,

  37. Joseph Carli

    Karen Kyle and her “flash-cards” reactions on random propaganda pictures..:

    Person holds up a Flash-card pic’ of something nasty..: “Ooo ..that’s nasty!”

    " Nice..: "Oh..that's nice!"

    " Sweet..: "Ah!...that's sweet.."

    (wash and repeat…..)

  38. Diannaart


    My name is Dianna.

    “Thus far” means there are no wholly successful nations (from a humane POV) thus far, including Cuba, which is only slightly better than China/Russia, seriously, do some research instead of mouthing off.

    Looks like even Helvityni is in agreement with Shaun and (although she’d never admit it) yours truly.

    Again with the insulting sarcasm, why?

    Would not a discussion be more progressive?

  39. Joseph Carli

    ” My name is Dianna.”…..Oh!…I thought that since you were using the shortened familiar with my name, I could do the same with yours…you old friends ..that sort of thing…but..well..if you don’t want to be friends. . .

    ” . . . Joe, do try to keep up. ”
    ” . . . instead of mouthing off.”

    My first reply to yourself was using an example of analogy with the cake-making…I thought that was legitimate..I see myself as an educator….But of course, you are correct..insults are DEFINITELY NOT WARRANTED….

  40. Karen Kyle

    It Matters Not. Thank you for the link re the writing of history. It is most interesting. I am about half way through.

  41. Joseph Carli

    Peter..those figures were in the old pre-decimal currency days..from 1960…and there is no symbol on these modern keyboards for ‘Pounds”…that’s currency, not weight…and yes…capitalism IS sanctioned robbery…and many times “under arms”.

  42. Diannaart

    Aw shucks, Joseph, you don’t mind Karen K calling you Joe … or am I special?

    Anything to say on your topic? You being the self appointed educator ‘n all.


  43. helvityni

    It’s all too complicated, Hannah does not like good men to come to women’s rescue….

    Can bad women ( sadly we have them as well) come to good women’s rescue….

    Why can’t we just all aspire to be, if not good people, then at least to be well-behaving, civil folk…we are all just that, PEOPLE.

    My head is spinning….

    So sorry Joseph Carli to be off topic.

  44. Joseph Carli

    Dianna (there!)…Now wait a minute…Karen K’ and I are like this : (crossed index and middle fingers)…we’re of that old “working world” school..her and myself…old Norm Gallagher supporters…(onyers Norm!) . We both know what it’s like to be up to your hocks in mud on a winters day on a dirty site, or down to one’s singlet in the scorching sun on a barren plain!…..We’ve done the hard-yards on-site and in-shed…we’ve sung the songs, laughed the good times and wept the dark-days of broken dreams..It’s true, she got the accolades and retirement package while I got short-shrift…but that’s the way the cookie crumbles and so when we meet each other on these pages and give each other the “nod of greeting” with a sense of familiarity of names and words, you’ll have to appreciate that our “ease of companionship” goes back a loooonnng way….

  45. Joseph Carli

    Yes..helvityni…I saw and heard that…I don’t know…I’ve been a “bad boy” at times in a long life…desiring, lusting, huffing and puffing after that elusive treasure that only exists as a “will-of-desire”, to be lost once gained and forgotten after just being remembered….like fairy-floss that looks of substance but melts away when tasted…yet the “hunger” for more lingers….We hetro’ males are sometimes “bad men”….but not always “nasty men”…they are another breed, other humans and one should not equate the Epicurean gourmet with the ravenous glutton…even though they both may eat at the same table..
    Yes…we males are sometimes “bad”..but we are also..I would hazard a guess..”good” for many women who also desire . . .

  46. Joseph Carli

    Y’know…after thinking about that subject just touched upon above…I think I can feel an article coming on!

  47. Diannaart

    My name is Dianna. You slow on the uptake, Joseph?

    I can be bad, or good, or even horrid. Which applies to everyone posting here. Yes, you too Joseph Carli, Helvityni, your shit stinks too.

    All of us are a mix of good and bad on the bell curve of human characteristics. With the extremes in, thankfully, small numbers on the edges.

    Now, FFS, was this blog about communism, or simply another lecture from the (not old, 60+ is not old) self appointed font of … I’ll leave the gentle reader to fill in what Joseph Carli is the font of.

    Better stop now, helvityni’s head might spin off.


  48. Joseph Carli

    Diannaart..: ” I can be bad, or good,. . . “…….ok….ok…I’m working with you on that picture, Dianna…I’m working with you…..but….but…….no…sorry…..either way I just don’t seem to be able to conjure up any sort of “complete personality” that fills that image..maybe it’s that gravitar that throws one a tad…

  49. Diannaart

    Not caring what picture you have in mind for me … more concerned you do not follow through with your topics … too busy having hissy fits when someone dares to differ?

  50. Jill a Lyall

    Many people equate “communism” with the one form of communism that was attempted (with good reason) in the USSR, China and a few other countries – it was a communism interpreted for that particular era. It was not a proper application of the real theory developed by Marx and Engels in the late 19th century. It was a desperate attempt to bring whole rural serf populations through an industrial revolution forcibly, and to forcibly organise society along the lines of an interpretation of communism of a few white men. It had the element of brutality and rigidity that inevitably goes with forced social engineering headed by a small cabal of men. If you read Marx properly you will see that the theory of communism is not about the stalinist and maoist regimes we witnessed. It is a theory about what happens when technology changes bring about a change in the relations of production. Capitalism is a transitional system and will not last. We are already moving to a new technology age that has completely upended the old relations of production. The old elites are fighting hard to maintain the status quo and gain the upper hand in this upheaval. There are new forms of socialist thought based on Marx’s ideas but also on ideas of interconnectedness, community, environmental issues and the idea of small, local communities, self sufficiency and small scale, renewable sources of energy. Watch this space. But the task many of us who are aware of the class system built on the capitalist relations of production, is to make sure the elites do not succeed in retaining their position and condemning the rest of us to an Orwell-like world.

  51. Joseph Carli

    Thanks for the well considered comment, Jill…

  52. Matters Not


    a communism interpreted for that particular era

    Indeed! But one could go much further and point out the nature of that particular beast was also heavily influenced by socio cultural forces, manifest in Russia at that time. Visit the many and various Palaces in and around St Petersburg, for example, to get a feel for the wealth/opulence on display and at the same time remember people were starving on the streets. It was seen as the natural order of things when the ideology of the Divine Right of Kings was still to the fore. Start with the Winter Palace and go on from there. Remember, in these palaces if it looks ‘golden’ then it most probably is.

    This was also a time when the devoutly religious Russians were under the influence of the Orthodox Church which supported the existing arrangements.

    Extrapolating across cultures is fraught.

  53. Diannaart


    I agree.

    The fantastic tech we are using can be a means to global equality or the ties which bind the majority for the predation of a few powerful and wealthy. Trump uses IT to promulgate to deceive, confuse and ultimately service a minority. This minority, in the past, was comprised of so-called upper classes. Then the industrial revolution provided the means for an acquisitive bourgeoisie to enter the ranks. Now, IT has given people from any social strata to gain power. Yet the formulae remains the same, 10% owning 90% of of wealth and power. The few countries where wealth and power is more linear are nations of Scandinavia.

    We need a mix to balance out such inequity. The state to provide essential services which now includes internet, incentives for small business to flourish and regulations against the formation of monopolies. And less focus on the economy of wealth and more on quality of life.

    We can learn from the Nordic mixed economies with their strong welfare provision that does not diminish the role of business. They show a way forward that is different from both statist socialism and unrestrained markets.

  54. Karen Kyle

    Jill…..I don’t agree. It is easy to see mass starvation and sheer desperation as a cause of an uprising or revolution. It does not explain the murderous brutality afterwards against the very people who were starving. And forced Industrialisation and social engineering won’t cut it and could never justify it.

    And…”Capitalism is a transitional system and will not last:” Capitalism in various forms is as old as the use of money in trade and it has lasted well and it is resilient. No doubt it will come to an end in time, (everything does) but probably not in the near future. We are stuck with it until we can punch and kick it into behaving itself.

  55. Matters Not

    KK re:

    Capitalism in various forms is as old as …

    And so is communism (broadly defined). Indeed, every Christian religious order, I am familiar with, operates on communist principles (broadly defined) re the absence of personal property rights, private wealth, etc. Yet in some cases the political (read power) structure of these orders is decidedly authoritarian while in others it’s clearly democratic – with the designated leader rotated on a regular basis.

    Thus it might be useful to draw a distinction between a political ideology and those who practise same?

    Accordingly, entertain the thought that communism (broadly defined) might be … democratic, authoritarian or whatever. And then consider that the past might not be a reliable guide for what might happen in the future. (As they say when it comes to financial investment.)

    Claims to ‘knowing’ (in any absolute sense)should best be qualified?

  56. Karen Kyle

    MN……The communism (or community) of life in religious orders is not an appropriate example. People who join religious orders do so freely and willingly and they do it because they have religion in common with their fellow monks etc. And religious communities are small so differences of opinion when they occur would be minor. If the monastry is one facility among many owned by the order there would likely be more differences of opinion across the whole of the order. Ultimately they might have differences with the Church per se.

    In any event nobody has imposed anything on the members of the order. A Communist government is an entirely different kettle of fish. It would be imposed on everyone whether they wanted it or not. There would be great resistance and not just from the wealthy, Such a government would have to be imposed by force and that has meant widespread violence and killing on an unprecedented level in the past. I don’t see one good reason why it would be different now or at any time in the future.

    And to maintain such a government takes the kind of controls, loss of freedom. and sterile straight jacketing which kills a society along with many of it;s members. To believe tn communism as a form of government is naive and unrealistic. For Christ’s sake man you have the examples before your very eyes.

    And there isn’t any need for it. We need to reform our own system not pull it down to be replaced by something which is proven not to work.

  57. Diannaart

    Comparing political ideologies, such as communism, with religion is entirely relevant both rely upon acceptance of an ideology – although political ideology is presumed to have some basis in fact.

    Both have vertical structures, in spite of claims to equality. Both inhibit dissent or questions to a lesser or greater degree depending (as MN has noted) upon the degree of authoritarianism.

    As for religion being “small” – the size which matters is the wealth and power, not the communities.

    Professor Ann O’Connell, a taxation specialist at Melbourne University’s Law School, said the definition of charity should be examined.

    And she said the Catholic Church’s tax-free status should be reviewed.

    What does the Church own?

    Churches, presbyteries, schools, nursing homes, hospitals, offices, tennis courts, mobile phone towers
    Superannuation, telecommunications, Catholic Church Insurance and Catholic Development Funds

    “In terms of accountability, main churches were able to get a concession from the government when it enacted the Australian Charities and Not-for-profit Commission Act so that it’s subject to much less reporting, if the entity qualifies as a basic religious charity,” Professor O’Connell said.

    “I think in terms of both the royal commission and now the exposure of how much wealth the Catholic Church has got, I think there might be grounds for reviewing that exemption as well$30-billion-investigation-finds/9422246

  58. Karen Kyle

    Diane……you don’t get it. If you joined a religious order you would be living in a small community and you would have much in common with your peers. And many points of agreement. I don’t care how big or wealthy the Catholic Church is. For the purpose of this argument the power of the Catholic Church is irrelevant. The point is that people chose to enter a religious order knowing full well what is ahead,
    There is no such choice for many people under a communist government which so far has had to be imposed by force.

  59. paul walter

    I’m glad I avoided the thread, but do wonder if Karen Kyle might not have missed the point re Diannaart’s last comment.

  60. Karen Kyle

    The wealth of the Catholic Church and whether it ought to be taxed is a separate issue. In fact if you are going to go with this irrelevant argument it might be as well to remember the Catholic Church although a public institution holds it’s wealth as the Monarchy it is. Therefore it’s wealth is probably private just as the British Monarchy’s wealth is private. Rather puts paid to the whole notion of a communistic church don’t it.

    Some religious orders take a vow of poverty. Some don’t. Pope Pius 12th was a wealthy man in his own right having inherited money from his family.

  61. Joseph Carli

    Dedicated to those “oily, servile crawlers”…

    The oily impotency of the servile crawler.

    They give me the f#ckin’ shits!…You see them all over social media these days, their oleaginous flattery dripping off the sleeves of their latest hero blogger..the servile adoration sickening in its agreement and self-boosting affiliation to vicariously suck up some degree of perceived wisdom.. to what is most times an article stating nothing more than the bleedin’ obvious.

    “Oh xxxx “ they’ll say..”I couldn’t agree with you more!…you’ve stated in no more than a thousand words that perfect description of : ‘Oh I knowwww’ better that ever I could have….re–spect”..or wtte..

    What has happened, I have to ask, to that independent Australian spirit?…where has that singular individualist gone?…where now the iconic “Simpson and his donkey”.. the no-surrender young lovers in “Jedda”… that rebellious cast in life’s tapestry from Ned Kelly to the Eureka Stockade warriors?…Where the strong, independent women of Lawson’s stories and the feminist movement’s Germaine Greer in Australia’s growing nation? Are they all gone the way of the Tassie Tiger..nothing now but the rumour of a sighting amongst the wilds of a mundane suburban terrain?

    Back in 1979, Keith Dunstan put out a book called : “Ratbags” praise of the eccentric individual who takes pride in going against the grain of social lists such characters as Barry Humphries, Germaine Greer, Xavier Herbert and Frank Thring among a host of others…some still living, some dead and many teetering on the edge of the abyss..

    To quote from Dunstan’s book..:

    “. . . A ratbag is someone who dares to be different; a ratbag is the creature who creates a pinnacle, perhaps only tiny above a great drear of conformity. . . “

    Conformity seems to be the idealist aspiration in these times..the materialist perfection…the consumer adulation for gimmickry..the low-brow ambition to be in total agreeance with those you admire..or at least want to be seen to admire. And I can’t believe it is in the nature of so many people born and raised in a country free from military, social and political pressure, to want to be so embarrassingly servile to their peers to the extent of eye-watering short, to want to become that worst of creatures : A Crawler!

    Again to Keith Dunstan:

    “ Patrick White was always under suspicion of being a ratbag. Like all great writers, he suffered merciless treatment from the critics . . . He had to win the Nobel Prize before he was accepted in his own country”…This form of cultural cringe is prevalent among the snivelling classes…where they refuse to acknowledge a person or artist without they first getting “cred” from a “certified authority”…preferably one from overseas. That is why you will always hear a guest commentator being introduced on Radio National along with a string of prize wins or credible university degrees or honours…clearly a sign of the continuing insecurity of a national psyche.

    I would join with but not necessarily agree with those disgruntled ratbags and eccentrics who in disdaining the conformity of a legion of sycophantic, crawling “yes-men” whose only stamp on life will inevitably be the petulant foot of the spoilt and denied brat, and I take great pleasure in telling those who would try to buy us off with worthless materialistic currency to take their small-change opinions, their grovelling conformist posts, their “Oh I adore you!” adulation, convert them to the metaphorical zacs and dinahs and well and truly SHOVE THEM UP THEIR IRRELEVANT ARSE!

    So I say..: Good on you , Karen Kyle…though I don’t necessarily agree with you…go on…sink the boot in I say!….BOTH OF THEM!

  62. Diannaart

    Thank you, Paul. You were wise to steer clear.

    Yes, Karen missed the point about who has power and gets to call the shots whether it is religion, politics, corporations, unions or even philanthropy (the giver gets to choose to whom to give), sporting monopolies (AFL, Olympic Committee, Golf).

    We humans need to reorganise along more linear structures, too much power at the top and we get exactly what we are experiencing globally; infighting, factions, instability and massive inequity.

    I wasn’t discussing tax exemption, per se, I was illustrating how power is used to control, manipulate and/or avoid accountability. Big picture. Whereas, Karen is more into scoring points and derailing discussion. So it goes.

  63. Joseph Carli

    I’ll just leave these here . . .

    ” Karen is more into scoring points . . . ”
    ” Thank you, Paul. You were wise to steer clear.”

  64. Kaye Lee



  65. Kronomex

    Joseph, you and Karen should go and create your own blog then you can stroke each others egos all day without the annoyance of others butting in.

  66. Karen Kyle

    Who has power and who gets to call the shots. Oh Jesus wept. You are a tad predictable and as unrealistic as usual. In any society at any time with the possible exception of the neolithic there are various groups who have power and who get to call the shots A great pity but it comes with civilisation and is necessary to civilisation.. And the big bad church is a favourite target for atheistic communists. Stalin hated the Orthodox Church because they provided a competing ideology and he thought divided loyalties. He persecuted them by sending priests in huge numbers to the Gulag where they died and he reduced the number of parishes in the USSR from about 55000 down to 5000. Eventually the communist regime was choosing who would be bishops etc and who would be the Patriarch of the church. The church was bent to the service of the state. The church leader was sent to the World Council of Churches to subvert the institution into doing what Russia wanted…….namely fighting to disarm the West through the Peace Movement. All well documented in the Book Red Horizons by LT General Ion Mihai Pacepa the former head of Romanian Intelligence and then corroborated by documents stolen and copied by Vassily Mitrokhin.from the KGB archives.

    Stalin hated the Orthodox Church and later he hated the Catholic Church to the extent that ordered the execution of Pope John Paul who narrowly survived a hit man’s bullet. There was also a failed attempt to blacken John Paul’s name.via a fake diary of a woman who supposedly had an affair with him. Luckily the agent responsible for planting the fake diary got drunk and had a car accident on the way. German police I think it was discovered the diary and the plot was exposed.

    There is not a shred of morality in USSR brand of Communism, nor in China’s. The very nature of the beast requires force to perpetrate it. If you are uncomfortable about whatever power the Church has left I suggest the USSR or China would be and is a lot worse. To object to the holding and use of power by various groups within society is indicative of powerful propaganda. The thing to do with our institutions that get out of control is to reform them or in the case of the church to let it die a natural death at least in the West. This protesting and whining about powerful groups is seldom well directed and it is infantile
    We have more problems with the power of big corporations these days than weakened and discredited church.

  67. Kaye Lee

    “We have more problems with the power of big corporations these days than weakened and discredited church.”

    I agree. And the danger presented by amoral corporations whose only goal is maximising profit is far greater than any supposed threat from Russia or China.

    Though if my child had committed suicide because of the abuse of a Catholic priest, I may have a different view.

  68. Joseph Carli

    Karen…out of interest, I would ask how you spend your idle time…but now, I think THAT is obvious…but hey!…all determined perseverance is to be admired.

    But for the sake of curiosity..: You don’t like Communism…you don’t approve of authoritarian religion…capitalism gets short shrift…as do corporations ….. even strong-arm militarism democracy is frowned upon…What IS your ideal governing order?

    Personally…I got nothing against the Rosicrucians.

  69. Michael Taylor

    I could be wrong, but wasn’t Stalin a failed priest?

  70. Kronomex


    “Stalin hated the Orthodox Church and later he hated the Catholic Church to the extent that ordered the execution of Pope John Paul who narrowly survived a hit man’s bullet. There was also a failed attempt to blacken John Paul’s name.via a fake diary of a woman who supposedly had an affair with him. Luckily the agent responsible for planting the fake diary got drunk and had a car accident on the way. German police I think it was discovered the diary and the plot was exposed.”

    Would you mind backing up what appears to be utterly nonsensical statements with some evidence and tell us which John Paul you are talking about. If you mean John Paul II then Stalin came back to life (which is a miracle in and of itself), ordered the assassination and then died again.

  71. Joseph Carli

    Michael…Priests don’t “fail”….they just “falter” a little…

    “Dusting the lillies”.

    Wither goest thou, Father Joe,
    On such a splendid day?
    Do you follow whimsy’s course,
    A carefree wanderer…say?
    A laugh, a smile, pause a while..
    Then, cautious answer, yea..
    “I go toward yonder gate,
    Under stately blue-gum tree.
    There, (with blessings of God)..
    I go to ‘dust the lillies’.
    To dust the lillies gently,
    Lest such petals fade and die.
    I’ll embrace their hips,
    Kiss their lips,
    And whisper a little white lie!”

  72. Karen Kyle

    Joe……….I believe in an inclusive, multi cultural, pluralist representative democracy with a mixed economy and a somewhat regulated capitalist system. I believe in making the buggers pay their taxes and fair trade deals.

    That way there is room for a wide variety of different ethnic groups, religions and all shades of opinion……including yours. And we could continue affording universal health care and a first rate education system.

  73. Joseph Carli

    ” inclusive, multi cultural, pluralist representative democracy with a mixed economy . . . “……I hereby name such a political ideal as …: “Adjectivism”.

    But hey!…You’re going to love my next post then…

  74. Karen Kyle

    Kronomex……I beg your pardon. Pope John Paul was shot in 1981 which means Leonid Brezhnov was the leader at the time.. But many of his policies were a continuation of the Stalinist way of thinking (and that continues today). The Soviets were afraid of losing Poland and John Paul had been an adversary for years. When the Turk who had done the shooting was captured the Italian authorities were suspicious about the Soviet Union and found by enquiries that that was indeed where the guilt lay. Further corroborated by the two spies Paceepa and Mitrokhin years later. The Italians were right.

  75. Karen Kyle

    If religion played any part at all (which I doubt) in the lives of Hitler Stalin Pol Pott etc it would have been the same kind of warped religion as their warped politics. To be religiously weird like many of the Evangelical Right in the US means they are also politically weird. For example, many support Trump and the Tea Party etc and they have also embraced the worst and most undesirable aspects of Capitalism.

    Kaye Lee

  76. Karen Kyle

    Michael Taylor…..yes he was. Just like Tony Abbot eh.

  77. Kronomex

    It was still a bit sloppy on your part not to make the statements clearer. If you put a little more thought into what you are talking about before posting then maybe you wouldn’t be pipped about making, on the surface, rash or ill-thought-out comments.

  78. Karen Kyle

    Kronomex….sorry for the sloppiness on my part. Will endeavour to do better.

  79. Diannaart

    Kaye Lee

    Have bookmarked that link for the predictable “atheists are worse than religious” arguments. My 2 cents? Human beings are frequently reprehensible – irrespective of colour, creed, gender, carnivore or vegetarian. Hitler was vegetarian, if I recall my readings from “how much Nazis really suck”.

    While I agree the greatest threat is from corporates, religion is far from neutered. My point about corruption by power,regardless of ideology, still stands. Which is why the old saying “power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely” remains evergreen.

  80. Diannaart


    A favourite of director, Joss Whedon as well.

    Also power should only be given to those who do not want it, or something like that.


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