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Halal Certified Wine … And Vegan Approved Cheese!

Image from shutterstock

Image from shutterstock

Perhaps one of the more ridiculous accusations in the whole Halal certification debate was the suggestion that Jacob’s Creek was seeking Halal certification for their wine. Given that consuming alcohol is contrary to the Islamic religion, it’s hardly likely to gain them extra sales.

But logic isn’t the strong point of many of the anti-Islamic groups that have sprung up. Abuse, idiocy and hypocricy, yes, but clear thinking, no.

Like the photo I saw of some Reclaim Australia marchers with their faces masked by Australian flags… given their strong objections to the burqa, because – in this country – we don’t cover our faces, it seemed a little strange!

Ok, ok, I guess the stupid have a right to vote and express themselves. Bigots have rights too, you know, including the right to complain about other people putting forward ideas that they don’t like. Once we start trying to ban people’s right to express an incorrect opinion, we’re on the slippery slope to fascism, aren’t we? Wasn’t that the argument for why Andrew Bolt should be given free reign on the front page to complain about his inability to write factual inaccuracies in the cause of making a point? And isn’t his silence on the Joe Hockey case proof of how he’s been stifled and can’t come to the defence of Fairfax to write whatever they like?

Still perhaps my favourite moment was the “great Australian patriot” who told us that Reclaim Australia had now “gone global”

Which sort of strikes me as rather ironic. If Reclaim Australia is now global who is being reclaimed by or for?? Given the racist diatribes against our indigenous people, it’s certainly not them. So if Reclaim Australia is now including people from overseas, does that mean it’s being reclaimed by foreigners. I’m not sure that I like that, because… well… foreigners are foreign… And I’d like to decide who reclaims Australia and the circumstances under which they claim it!

But whatever, it now seems that it’s not Reclaim Australia. but “reclaim the world”.

First Austria, then the world… Oh, I really should proofread, it seems I’ve missed a couple of letters there. I mean, who’d try to start with Austria? Australia is clearly the place to start with a reclaim. Because well, once we have Australia we can reclaim the world, which clearly we must have once owned if we’re “reclaiming it”.

Yes, you’re right. I shouldn’t be raising the profile of such people.

After all, we have people who are threatening our lifestyle and trying to stop us slaughtering animals to slap on the barbie – Vegetarians, who don’t even want us to eat dairy foods. Ok, I know some of you are saying that many vegetarians are a “live and let live” sort of people, but if that’s true, why aren’t they coming out and condemning Vegans for their extremism?

I’ve heard that some of the funds from veggie burgers even go toward supporting PETA, and ever since she got off that drink driving charge without even a slap on the wrist, I think that she should support herself.

Ah, like I said, even the stupid have the right to an opinion.

 

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117 comments

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  1. Kaye Lee

    That video reminded me of Liberal candidate Bernie Black for some reason.

  2. Rossleigh

    Ah, my computer tells me that the video is unavailable in safety mode…
    Perhaps, Kaye Lee, it knows something!

  3. musicinhills

    What has Quantum Physics got to do with this you may ask,
    Well……….We are the Parallel Universe.

  4. mark flerber

    If some people get their facts wrong about the finer points of halal or kosher – both of which are alien to white European sensibilities – so what. Both certifications are being imposed on us white Europeans whether we like it or not – and we have to pay those surcharges if we want to continue to purchase products that we’ve been purchasing for years. In a user pays market place its the muslims and jews who should pay – not us unbelievers. We are forced to subsidise muslims and jews whether or not we like islam or judaeism. No jews or muslims are subsidising my quirky religion – there is no logical reason why l should subsidise theirs or for that matter make special concessions in order that they are better able to practise their religions.

  5. mark flerber

    Golden Avatar Ross (GAR) seems to have a problem with ordinary white people and their ordinary age old thinking. Perhaps if we could persuade muslims and jews to pay a special surcharge (tax – its a tax) toward a fund so that ordinary white people can obtain phd’s in diversity and become better accepting of the multiculti agenda being force fed to them – life will be beautiful. We can all sing GARs praise and gaze enthusiastically into the sunset of white civilisation – as GAR leads us to the cliff.

  6. Kaye Lee

    mark,

    I suppose you are similarly outraged to know that the government now funds colleges that train priests. And you must be apopletic about the amount of money given to religious schools, particularly Catholic. And how about them paying no tax! Those “white” religions are costing us a fortune

  7. corvus boreus

    mark(mark, mark) flerber,
    I suggest you do not buy any product that has a ‘halal’ or ‘kosher’ stamp on the packaging.
    That way you know you will not be financing any faction or branch of a religion you do not agree with.
    You could also lean toward including more ‘unclean meats'(especially swine-flesh) in your dietary intake.
    Pork, bacon and ham are unlikely to have any objectionable religious certification imposed by circumcising Semites.

  8. Rossleigh

    Personally, I have a problem with paying for the “Heart Smart” label. I think people who want to be healthy shouldn’t be subsidised by the rest of us.

    As for things imposed on we poor “white Europeans” here in Australia, and accusations that the Reclaim Australia people are racist, well, what can I say?

  9. mark flerber

    Kaye Lee why wouldnt l be outraged, though l can reluctantly accept that christianity has a long association with white Europeans, some people believe that without christianity European civilisation may never have developed at all. l dont know that l agree with that premise however, judaeism and islam do not have long or continuous associations with European civilisation and have had no beneficial effect upon same – if anything both have had a detrimental effect upon Europe and European civilisation.
    GAR if you are to continue to lead your flock you must pay heed to your general health.

  10. mark flerber

    GAR youve already said plenty about racist Reclaim Oz but why stop now? You might want to introduce some new words into your cutting edge mix – the word ‘racist’ is now practically devoid of any meaning at all – its only ever used as a smear word to denigrate white Europeans who rightfully stand up for their identity and culture – it is never ever used about any other racial group who stands up for their identity and culture. For that reason the only thing the word does is identify users as anti-whites. In the world of the anti-white every racial and cultural group is allowed to defend and cherish their identity – except whites. You can use the r word as much as you like but it makes you look…well it makes you look like a racist – an anti-white racist.

  11. Kaye Lee

    mark,

    A history lesson on civilisation….

    The process of sedentarization is first thought to have occurred around 12,000 BCE in the Levant region of southwest Asia though other regions around the world soon followed. The emergence of civilization is generally associated with the Neolithic, or Agricultural Revolution, which occurred in various locations between 8,000 and 5,000 BCE, specifically in southwestern/southern Asia, northern/central Africa and Central America.

    Karl Jaspers, the German historical philosopher, proposed that the ancient civilizations were affected greatly by an Axial Age in the period between 800 BCE–200 BCE during which a series of male sages, prophets, religious reformers and philosophers, from China, India, Iran, Israel and Greece, changed the direction of civilizations. William Hardy McNeill proposed that this period of history was one in which culture contact between previously separate civilizations saw the “closure of the oecumene”, and led to accelerated social change from China to the Mediterranean, associated with the spread of coinage, larger empires and new religions.

    “White European” anything grew from “judaeism and islam”

  12. rossleighbrisbane

    Actually I’ve used the word “racist” twice. You may like to count how many times you’ve used the word. Come on, I promise you won’t have to take your shoes and socks off – it is less than ten.

  13. Kaye Lee

    In Reclaim Australia, does “standing up for your identity and culture” mean forbidding others from embracing theirs?

  14. corvus boreus

    Vegans wishing to irritate Muslims and Jews can still buy a product called ‘not bacon'(bacon style soy-rashers, or ‘facon’) by Sanitarium.
    This one does not buy that product because;
    a) I am neither a vegetarian nor a swine-abstainer, so I have no need of a bacon facsimile,
    b) it tastes like thin slices of dry soy curd soaked in soy sauce, on account of it being dehydrated marinated tofu
    c) it is a parody based upon a lie, as tofu is coagulation of what is called soy “milk” (Soy juice is not a milk because legumes do not lactate [there are no nipples on beans{although I remain agnostic on the the ‘milking of nuts’}]), and
    d) Sanitarium is a business branch of the 7th day adventists, and I will not fund such schismic sabbathic supremicists.
    * I would consider buying ‘not bacon’ if it was smiley-stamped as both halal and kosher, as this would appeal to so many levels of my sense of the ridiculous.

  15. stephentardrew

    The Vogons are on board and have even contributed some completely unreadable and illegible soul destroying poetry.

    We’ve Gone galactic and I hear the Borg are in for a good assimilation as you all become Abbot and Bronny the Bonnet clones.

    Nothing happened at the end of the day you lying shit the bloody sun went down and I went to sleep.

    I looked out for big things and found thousands of shriveled minds tuned into Fox’s endless patriot reclaim white Christian Christmas tape.

    Bloody asked for a million bucks and got fined by the cops for texting the TAB while driving you lying fraud

    I do hate your guts all of ya cause I am a real idiot dumbed down moron on steroids.

    So I’ll see you at the next Reclamation Australia after we have buggered up this one which should be pretty soon.

    Have a nice halal free dinner and stay off of the poisoned pissy girly wines.

  16. Florence nee Fedup

    It seems that Kosher and Halal decree that the throats of animals must be cut cleanly and quickly. The animal must be alive. That was the same belief my farmer father had when I was a child. Yes, cleanly and as quickly as possible. Yes, and the animal must bleed out. Need to be alive when killed for that to happen. Cannot believe my father enjoyed the task, but if one wanted to eat, one did so. No stun gun in those days., He broke the rules, when it come to pigs. not that is a problem with either Kosher or Halal. He shot the pig through the brain, cutting the throat immediately. If one has heard a pig slaughtered, one would know why. In fact mum demanded he do so, to protect us kids.

    Now I must admit, my father, and I am sure our slaughter men ever say a prayer over each beast. Still cannot see any harm there.

    As for the other difference, nothing must touch the animal that has been near a pig. One could say that is queer, but looking at the long history of food in the middle east, there was a good reason, why pork was not a part of the diet.

    I hate to say this, but back in ancient days, pig meat could be dangerous to eat, They take on board many diseases, flavoured by the food they eat. Not always the cleanest animal. Without refrigeration, food poisoning would not have been rare. Most fads and traditions with food, nearly always have good cause in the beginning. To this day, I cannot eat under cooked pork. Was taught, it was not safe. Love rare steak, even lamb now. More blood the better.

    All animals slaughtered in this country are stunned first. Stunned but not killed.

    Maybe someone can explain to me, what the hullabaloo is all about.

    Even without stunning, a good slaughter man should be able to kill with little or no cruelty. Stunning makes it much easier. As for the poor chickens, ducks and geese, the axe cut heads off in one swipe. After all, they are animals bred for food. If one can find a way of eating them, with slaughtering them,, I would love to know.

    One last thing, one does not have to buy anything with the labels. Plenty other meat available.

    If one thinks we can link in to the great meat markets in our reason, by not following Halal they are nuts. .

  17. Florence nee Fedup

    As a fifth generation Australian mostly Irish, both lots, minute sprinkling French and English. I have little idea of what out culture and identity is. My fathers people were free settlers on the land. My mothers small business, shop keepers and bakers. Two identities there to start with. Two different lifestyles. Two different cultures. Yes, Irish but not the culture of Ireland. Mums were RC. Dads protestants. North and south.

    So what is this identity and culture, that is so much at risk. I got news for those who want reclaim Australia, it is never constant, never static. It is forever changing and evolving. Each generations, adds to it, slowly bringing change.

    The Australian culture of the 1950’s bears little resemblance to that of today. For that I give thanks.

  18. Fiona

    Florence,

    Your comments are always such a joy to read – you have so much commonsense.

  19. Annie B

    Some great comments here – and a few giggles to boot. … Good article again Rossleigh.

    …………

    @ mark flerber.

    I notice that not once have you referred to any Australians ( er – that is ‘white Australians’ ) … all are ‘white Europeans’ in your epistles, so I have to gather you are 100% latest generation European ?

    If that is the case, maybe my next comment might be lost on you. !! …. Cos it relates to that wonderfully gooey salty black stuff we ‘white Australians’ so often spread on our toast in the mornings, and on our sangers for lunch.

    If however, you do like, or even love ( gasp ) Vegemite – I urge you to throw out whatever remains – as it is kosher ( the little black Aussie land logo, with a skewed “K” in the centre ) …. and has been for many years . …. and no – the “K” does not stand for ‘Kraft’. !! 😉

    Shock horror !! …. you might have been eating all that kosher stuff for years ? …. or for as many years as you have been on this planet, which I suspect might not be too many.

  20. Annie B

    @ Florence …

    I remember only too well, the farm of old – my father, grandfather farmed the land and ” fattened the calf ” for us to eat. … We did have to eat. ( Sheep, chickens etc. – never a pleasure to see but it had to be done ).

    And yes, there is every reason to not do away with a pig, within ear shot of the littlies. … Would give them nightmares for years. …. not even possible to catch and hold one that doesn’t want to be held, without the most horrific of noises – which btw, frightens the living daylights out of horses and can send them into major panic attacks – but then, you’d know that. ….

    I too was raised on ‘never eat pork that hasn’t been cooked ultra-well ….[ or to being so dried out it lost all its flavour. ] … All that has changed now – thank heaven, and I can now eat pork with great delight – however, it is still never ever undercooked in this home. I don’t however, bake it to about 1/3 it’s size, like we used to way back.

    Enjoyed your comments that rang true and with much good sense, about the ever changing and evolving face and life of Australia and Australians. …. Well said.

    ………….

  21. Jexpat

    I’m not exactly sure how mark flerber can claim that Kosher pickles are alien to white European sensibilities.

    Manischewitz wine, OK, I get that. Given a limited choice, I’d probably go with Passion Pop.

    But come on, man: don’t mess with my pickles.

  22. Zathras

    If you’re serious about not buying goods that may be indirectly funding terrorism then just stop buying petrol.

  23. mars08

    Want to see the heads of the bogans, bed-wetters, bozos, and bigots explode???

    Ask where they stand on that Australian icon… the Melbourne Cup. Demand that they protest against the Emirates Melbourne Cup! As is Emirates Airlines… Dubai based… and with that sinister silly, squiggly writting all over their planes!! And they server halal food!

  24. Vicki

    Coming from England and the east part of London England the only message I ever got re the eating of pork was that you do not do that (eat pork) unless there is an ‘r’ in the month.

  25. Vicki

    The bogan folk might need to think about that to work out the ‘why’.

  26. Jexpat

    Shellfish, Vicki, shellfish.

    And the Rule of r’s isn’t foolproof.

    Molluscs with paralytic shellfish toxin are occasionally found in “r’ months, too.

  27. Anomander

    It must be terrible to live in such a level of fear when less than 2% of the population identify as Muslim (go look-up the ABS Statistics). Pretty soon it’ll be 3% and we’ll soon be overrun! Grab your guns and man the barricades – Sharia Law is coming.

    Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with halal food – it means there’s more bacon and alcohol for me.

  28. @RosemaryJ36

    I think it is overlooked that food rules such as halal and kosher were largely sensible in the climate of the Middle East centuries ago when refrigeration was unknown. They were health rules imposed on people who looked up to their priests, sheiks, imams etc as leaders.
    Those rules have become embedded in the religion – just as some Christian sects oppose blood transfusions because the Bible tells them so.
    What is now needed is thorough education in ancient history and science to help people understand the origin of out of date habits and gain a realisation that the world has moved on since their ancient rule books were written.
    Homosexuality for example is not a sin or a crime but the outcome of prenatal experience and not a condition that can be changed.
    I sometimes despair of the inability of apparently intelligent people to appreciate that as we gain in understanding of the world and all that is in it – let alone the universe that surrounds it – we need to cast off old beliefs.
    Keep your gods if you must but understand that they were created when mankind was scientifically illiterate.

  29. eli nes

    Great read and the comments are on the ball, with Mark setting the ‘abbuttian belief’ benchmark.
    If you intelligent people work on his lack of knowledge and understanding, with the aim of educating him to find facts, to support his beliefs, you will have the key to defeating the rabbott.
    ps florence
    it is important to explore your ‘nothing must touch the animal that has been near a pig’ because your physiology, the one the christians believe makes you unsuitable for equality with men, in Islam, puts you in the ‘pig’ category, every month.
    In truth, a billion women believe they were created, by a male god, as an inferior gender suitable only as daughters or wives till motherhood.
    Over half of these women are culturally forced, by men and boys, to wear a range of ‘modesty’ garments by men in their family(in some cultures gangs of religious thugs enforce the ‘modesty’ with beating) Iranian men have the lowest standard, the flowing full face chador, the Saudis prefer the eyes exposing niqab and the Pakistani/Afghani cover the sex from childhood. The overarching point is THESE are cultural NOT religious.
    The hijab seems to be the only religious choice worn by some women who, on maturity, decided to hide their hair from their god and men. The possibility of such garments being proscribed by men, casual observation shows, very young girls encased in a hijab, way before they were old enough to make a personal free choice.

  30. Florence nee Fedup

    Eli, I have no problem with pork. Bred pigs, no problem there. Just acknowledging it has a history of not been safe to eat under all conditions. In fact, I love pork.

    Just saying many religious and other traditional beliefs are often based on real issues, that get lost in time. I am old enough, not to be seen as equal by RC, state, law and men in this country.

  31. Mark

    Halal and kosher slaughter are superficially similar, but do not conflate the two. In kosher slaughter the vagus nerve is cut causing a rapid drop in blood pressure in the brain rendering the animal unconscious very quickly. Halal slaughter omits this requirement.

  32. Stoo1970

    I can’t even imagine living in an all white, all Christian Australia. I was adopted by an interacial couple, and while I haven’t got a drop of Asian blood in me, I can’t help but strongly identify with my mum’s Japanese heritage. As a Gen Xer, I grew up with friends of various races and religions, and feel that my life is the richer for it.

    I can’t understand these Reclaim Australia numpties. They want an Australia that never really existed. They obviously don’t know just how early on Afghans, Chinese, even Japanese, settled here, and the contribution they made, and the hardships they faced.

    And just to let Mark know – while Europe was stagnating through the “Dark Ages” the Islamic world was making advances in Astronomy, medicine, engineering, and the arts. Many of the words we employ today have their origins in Arabic.

  33. stephentardrew

    Back in the late sixties and seventies I worked with people from many nations who were my colleagues and work mates. They really were a great bunch of people, some good some bad, but in general mostly decent hard working people. Try bludging working in a foundry brothers and sisters.

    Married an Italian and learned what real food and a regular tipple of home made wine was. Used to make it with my father in law. I remember when people used to turn their noses up at the garlic munchers. My life was forever enriched by a lifetime of multiculturalism. My son worked in China and speaks Chinese fluently and he has also volunteered in India. My hybrid kids are a wonder to behold.

  34. Mark

    @mark flerber. Since when has kosher food tax been imposed on anyone? My understanding is that it is available at a limited number of outlets in separate areas and Jews pay extra to purchase it.

  35. Mark

    Stoo.
    ‘the Islamic world was making advances in Astronomy, medicine, engineering, and the arts.’

    I’d do a bit of research on that claim. The Islamic world didn’t make any such advances. They took that knowledge from cultures that they conquered by the sword, such as Hindus. The Arabic terms we have for maths etc are just their names for concepts they stole, or adopted if stole is too strong a word. The most famous furphy is that they invented zero. I’ll concede this – a number of years back an Islamic ‘scholar’ gained a Phd. from Al Azar university on the benefits of imbibing camel urine, as recommended in the koran.

  36. Kaye Lee

    Certain advances made by medieval Muslim astronomers, geographers and mathematicians were motivated by problems presented in Islamic scripture, such as Al-Khwarizmi’s (c. 780-850) development of algebra in order to solve the Islamic inheritance laws, and developments in astronomy, geography, spherical geometry and spherical trigonometry in order to determine the direction of the Qibla, the times of Salah prayers, and the dates of the Islamic calendar.

    The increased use of dissection in Islamic medicine during the 12th and 13th centuries was influenced by the writings of the Islamic theologian, Al-Ghazali, who encouraged the study of anatomy and use of dissections as a method of gaining knowledge of God’s creation. In al-Bukhari’s and Muslim’s collection of sahih hadith it is said: “There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment.” (Bukhari 7-71:582). This culminated in the work of Ibn al-Nafis (1213–1288), who discovered the pulmonary circulation in 1242.

    I could go on but I assume that Mark is not interested in the facts.

  37. Stoo1970

    Mark – I meant to respond to a comment made by Mark Flerber, where he stated that Islamic culture had no positive influence on European civilisation. I believe he is wrong about that.

    “The Islamic world didn’t make any such advances”

    Really? I’ve no doubt they acquired knowledge from other cultures, But to assert they didn’t progress that knowledge at all is, to the best of my understanding, incorrect. I can’t think of any long-lasting civilisation that has existed in total isolation, that hasn’t taken something from their contemporaries or predecessors.

  38. Wally

    @Florence nee Fedup the big deal with Halal slaughtering technique is the fact that the animal is still alive so it is very cruel, you are correct that the animal is stunned but they often regain consciousness while hanging from a hook through the leg while they bleed to death.

    I first worked in an abattoir at the age of 14 during school holidays in the early 1970’s, the animals were shot through the ear with a bolt gun , then the throat was cut and a special sticking knife was used to open up the throat so the animal bled out completely. Sticking or slaughtering was a job that was performed by experienced butchers to ensure it was done humanely and correctly.

    A few years ago I worked in the maintenance department of an abattoir that supplies Halal mutton to Coles supermarkets. The Muslim staff who slaughter the animals are provided by a company based in Melbourne who have a monopoly in the industry. The staff they employ do not have a great deal of experience slaughtering animals and they spend half of the day in their own crib room (the canteen used by the rest of the employees is not adequate for them) praying and eating.

    The animals are stunned with a high voltage electric shock by shoving 2 sharp spikes into the back of the head, as an electrician I have suffered more electric shocks than I care to remember and I can assure you it is not a very pleasant experience nor is having sharp spikes the size of number 10 needles shoved into you. While unconscious the throat is cut and a hook is pushed through the leg between the 2 bones above the ankle joint, a minute or 2 later the animal regains consciousness and suffers a cardiac arrest while hanging upside down travelling along a chain. Some animals kick and shake about for several minutes.

    Modern processing plants also have a bad design issue in an attempt to save space compared with older meat works. In the old days the chain usually went down hill from where the live animals enter the slaughter area but nowadays the animals in the queue see their fate as they watch the animals ahead of them being slaughtered and hooked up onto the hanging rail bleeding to death.

    Anyone who believes Halal slaughtering is humane needs to go on a tour and see how the animals suffer! Fair enough if people have religious beliefs and they need Halal meat so be it BUT we should not be slaughtering any more animals this way than is necessary.

  39. Bilal

    An interesting book for the literate is by an academic now in Britain but who taught in Melbourne for some years.

    John M.Hobson. The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation. Cambridge University Press. 2004

    Page 37
    “One of Muhammad’s greatest contributions was to forge a unity through the power of Islam. And one of the most significant aspects of Islam was its penchant for trade and rational capitalist activity. It deserves emphasis that this immediately stands at odds with the Eurocentric assumption that Islam was a regressive religion that blocked the possibility of capitalist, let alone rational capitalist, activity. “

    page38
    “while we usually consider the Sharia [the Islamic sacred law] as the root of despotism and economic backwardness, it was in fact created as a means to prevent the abuse of the rulers’ or caliphs’ power, and moreover, it set out clear provisions for contract law. Not surprisingly, there was a rational reason why the Islamic merchants were strong supporters of the Sharia. Furthermore, there were clear signs of greater personal freedom within Islam than in medieval Europe. Offices were determined on the basis of ‘egalitarian contractual responsibilities’”

    pages 42-43
    “…between about 650 and 1000 the leading edge of global intensive power lay in the Islamic Middle east and North Africa. Eric Jones claims that the Abbasid caliphate was the first region to achieve per capita economic growth (supposedly the leifmotif of modern capitalism. Fernand Braudel described the economic activity of Islam after 800 in the following terms:

    ‘Capitalist’ is not too anachronistic a word. From one end of Islam’s world connections to the other, speculators unstintingly gambled on trade. One Arab author, Hariri had a merchant declare: ’I want to send Persian saffron to China, where I hear that it fetches a high price, and then ship Chinese porcelain to Greece, Greek brocade to India, Indian iron to Aleppo, Aleppo glass to the Yemen and Yemini striped material to Persia.’”

    The white Krischun supremacists should know that there was Aborigine-Macassan contact before white settlement and there were several Muslim sailors in the First Settlement on Norfolk Island.

  40. Mark

    KL, cutting and pasting from Wikipedia, while being a good springboard to further research, is not irrefutably ‘the facts’, which you assert, I’m not interested in. There are a number of arguments in the Talk section of that article. Al Nafis surmised the function of the pulmonary system based on Galen’s writings and diagrams. His findings did not advance beyond this on account of dissection being considered anti sharia. I agree that he is considered the discoverer of pulmonary circulation but his findings went no further due to the retarding influence of Islam.

    Stoo, points taken. I guess my argument is that Islamic achievements in science are often exaggerated and that Islam itself was an impediment to any gifted individuals who belonged that faith. Remember, for a Muslim to leave Islam is a death sentence where sharia is the law.

    The koran, the supposedly eternal and immutable word of Islam’s god, in a number of verses, describes the earth as laid out like a carpet, giving us the notion that it says the earth is flat. Notably, it does not describe the earth as spherical, as was known by many of the ancients. Even the Torah refers to the ‘circle of the earth’.

  41. Mark

    @Crow
    ‘Sanitarium is a business branch of the 7th day adventists, and I will not fund such schismic sabbathic supremicists.’

    Now now, you know you can do better than that.

  42. Jexpat

    Mark wrote: “ My understanding is that it is available at a limited number of outlets in separate areas and Jews pay extra to purchase it.”

    There you go f***ing with my pickles again.

  43. Kaye Lee

    Mark,

    I would remind you that Galileo was tried and sentenced by the Spanish Inquisition for his belief in a heliocentric system. Christian churches condemned Charles Darwin because his theory of evolution conflicted with the literal biblical account of creation.

  44. Baz

    Mark, what surcharge are you talking about? Halal certification is 0.003% of their costs and it isn’t considered worthwhile adding it to the price

  45. Lee

    The story of Jacob’s Creek seeking Halal certification was as hilarious as Cory Bernardi telling people to avoid Halal-certified Easter eggs.

    I really don’t care one way or the way about Halal certification of foods in general, although I do agree with Wally about the way animals are killed. I cannot support a method of slaughter that causes unnecessary suffering to animals.

  46. Jexpat

    Lee: Had I not spent a lot of time in the states and seen pandering, paranoid and delusional fundamentalist nutters up close and personal, I’d have to conclude that corybernadi.com was a parody site.

    But apparently, it’s not http://www.corybernardi.com/2015/04/01/ipu/

  47. Florence nee Fedup

    Baz, and plenty alternatives, if you do not want to buy. Most seem to do it, with hope exporting to near neighbours.

  48. Lee

    @ Jexpat

    Bwahahaha! Yeah, I love his claim that “common sense lives here”. Our Cory is rather special.

  49. Jexpat

    With regard to exports, even Barnaby Joyce understands the crux of the issue, even if, in the process, he’s umm… less than keen on elementary economics:

    The agriculture minister, Barnaby Joyce, has issued a warning to colleagues who are against halal certification, saying picking a fight with Islamic export countries could triple the price of beef for Australian consumers.

    A number of Coalition MPs and senators have expressed concern about halal certification….

    Joyce said failing to get halal certification would effectively cut off large export markets for Australian meat products, and warned against “picking a fight that we never needed to have”.

    Memo to Barnaby: what we’d have is a glut, which results in collapsing prices, widespread sector layoffs, and huge losses (and bankruptcy) to primary producer concerns. Eventually of course, there would be a loss of production capacity, which would indeed lead to much higher prices down the track, should economic sanity prevail over the presently self destructive Islamophobia.

  50. Mark

    @KL – Do you know that the office of the Inquisition was never abolished? It continues to this day as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. Ratzinger was in charge of it until he was made Pope.

    Baz, it’s the principle that counts. Moslems are required to donate approximately 2.5% cent of their income and wealth to Islamic charity. This is called zakat. Zakat is distributed in eight different categories. First to the collectors, then to seven further categories. One of those seven is to ‘Those fighting for a religious cause or a cause of God, or for Jihad in the way of Allah* and for Islamic warriors who fight against the unbelievers but are not part of salaried soldiers.’

    It is for the above reason that I will not support a halal tax in any form, no matter how small. Not to mention the innate cruelty associated with halal slaughter.

    *Jonsson, David (May 2006). Islamic Economics and the Final Jihad. Xulon Press. p. 245.

  51. Jexpat

    Mark:

    Mormons are required to donate 10% of their earnings to their cult, and some of that goes to people like this:

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/comedian-ricky-gervais-sets-off-shtstorm-by-tweeting-photo-of-hunter-and-giraffe-she-killed/

    And far worse, all over the world.

    It’s called a tithe, and here’s how they describe it: http://www.mormon.org/faq/church-tithing

    So, now you have a chance to pursue a new and better cause (and one that’s less likely to cause you embarrassment and you own country’s economy grief).

  52. eli nes

    sorry florence in an attempt to be smart enough for the people in this post I confused myself.
    I have no problems with pigs in fact many of their organs will work in humans. The point is Islam and Judaism put pigs in the unclean section of their god’s creations(laughable since refrigeration and modern cooking facilities) and the men and women of those religions put you in the category of unclean during menstruation and anything you touch during the period is also declared unclean needing a week of washing???
    Bilal it is difficult to argue that Islam was a regressive religion but it is easy to show how today’s interpretation of Islam can be regressive, especially for women. just as murderous as the middle ages, especially for minorities like the hazari and destructive to pre-Islamic cultural symbols. (cynics have no problems believing the Egyptian pyramids will be leveled)

    Did anyone catch Waleed Aly and the idiots talking about dress? Aly should have known better than to describe a number of specific cultural cover ups for women as ‘religious’? Niqab saudi men’s imposition, burqa Afghani/pakistani men’s imposition, chador Iranian men’s imposition and wandering gangs of thugs beating any woman who transgresses.
    In Australia there are laws against forcing women to wear a burqa under the duress of a beating but if it is classified as religious not cultural no problems with a woman getting a flogging for ducking out to the shop without the proper dress!

    The msm, including the ABC, using ‘racist’ for the disgusting tirade towards the women in a hijab.
    How insulting to the Aborigines, who are subject to racism almost every day of their life. The woman can take off the headwear and move freely because she is identified by a head covering.
    Aborigines cannot!
    Asians cannot!
    Maori and Islanders cannot!

  53. randalstella

    Imagine how the pig feels.

  54. Mark

    Jex, I thought you were better than that. Were you drunk when you posted that piece at 11.30 pm? The woman lives in Utah. Approximately 60% of Utah citizens are Mormons so in your mind the woman must be a Mormon and they are inherently evil because they are Christians and their tithing has to be supporting a demented sadist who gets her kicks killing animals with a bow and arrow. There is no mention of Mormonism on her website. She sounds more like a Gaia worshiper or follower of indigenous religions. She probably votes for the Greens or whatever the Yankee equivalent is.

    ‘And far worse, all over the world.’

    Really? No examples? I’ve found Mormons to be one of the most eccentric of the Christian sects but generally they seem to be good hearted people.

    ‘So, now you have a chance to pursue a new and better cause (and one that’s less likely to cause you embarrassment and you own country’s economy grief).’

    What is this new and better cause? A crusade against Mormons? I can’t say that I’m embarrassed but if I had written what you wrote I would be very embarrassed.

    Have another toke Jexter.

  55. Annie B

    @ mark ….

    Jexpat happened to be absolutely correct – in all that he posted ref. the Mormon Church itself and it’s questionable pursuits and funded projects.

    Re : Hunting to kill – profit taking – get a load of this one : http://mormonmatters.org/2009/09/24/is-the-church-sacrificing-principle-for-profit-with-hunting-preserves/ …. This link – in part, protests what the Church of LDS has been doing – regards hunting to kill and reserves set aside for same. But there are also excuses for it all on that link. e.g. – they ‘always respect’ the animal they have killed ??? Yeah – right.

    And do not come back at me – it wouldn’t be wise. … I belonged to the Church of LDS some many years ago, and yes, many of the members are very nice thoughtful people, often converts ( in Australia ) usually seeking something to make more meaning of their life, so the ‘elders’ come around and begin proselytising, IF one invites them inside. … [ They are trained well, on how to gain entry – to begin their ‘mission’ ] … Once permitted into the ‘inner sanctum’ ( by complete immersion baptism ) – the awful demands begin, very soon after. … The members might be nice enough, but those that sit at the head of every ‘ward’ ( parish in our terms ) … are not so bloody nice after all. …. they use con tactics ( based allegedly on their beliefs ) … threats of dire consequences, and fear mongering.

    So – because I would not in good conscience ‘obey’ one of their requirements for ‘advancement’ ( it had to do with my deceased father ) … I was sat in front of 9 senior members of the ward – put through an hour+ long inquisition, and finally ( by letter ) expelled / excommunicated from the Church, by which time I had expelled myself – happily. ….. the bush telegraph was in good form ( or perhaps they’d also been sent letters !! ) … as no member of that ward would speak to me forthwith. …. That did not worry ME – not one iota. …

    They are a cult, a sect who DO indeed charge 10% tithe ( which is a figure derived from the Bible ) … and is more than some other religions require of members to ‘show their faith ‘. …. Where that tithe goes ( other than to reserves to ‘kill’ / hunt innocent animals ] – I have no idea, nor would I want to know. … What I DO know is that they are ( like so many religions ) a very wealthy organisation.

    You have ( of course ) taken things out of context and run with it all – for the sake of your own argument which is flawed. And to accuse a commenter of being drunk, or suggesting he have another joint of cannabis ( toke ) …. is insolent, rude and totally un-necessary.

    But it does show the level of your intelligence, and indeed – your age ( which would be quite young ? ).

    You have much to learn – so go learn it.

  56. Mark

    Thank you Annie. For a moment after I posted my reply the thought occurred to me that the Jexpad was dangling me a bait and that I’d taken it. I didn’t know that Mormons were involved in that sort of thing, yep, despicable. I agree with you re their senior elders. But, his argument was a unicorn thrown at my explanation of zakat, of which a percentage is mandated and used for jihad. Look over there, the Mormons are just as bad!

    I don’t think my argument was flawed. In what way was it flawed?

    ‘…insolent, rude and totally un-necessary.’

    Insults hurled at dissenters to the groupthink of this site seem to be par for the course. My Parthian shot was mild compared to what I and others have copped here. You’ve even thrown a few yourself if I remember correctly.

    Anyway, I thought you weren’t going to ‘talk’ to me anymore after I accused you of being pedantic.

  57. Annie B

    @ Mark …

    Er !! … there seem to be at least 3 people named ‘mark’ here. ,…. I won’t list them. …. I do not recall the pedantic comment ( unless it was on another post ) you refer to, …. and do not recall it being directed toward you – “Mark”

    It may have been to ‘mark’ or 3 other ‘marks / Marks’ on here ???

    Anyway, the 2.5% zakat is from only ONE of the many religions that exact a tithe of some form. The Roman Catholic Church, does not exact a 10% tithe, but DOES expect and require people to give to the sustenance of the Church and its teachings – on an ongoing basis. …. And many unlapsed Catholics, give as much as they can. ,….. Some still agree to the 10% tithe – but it’s not obligatory.

    Some Pro-testant Churches have given away with tithing, but most still send around the collection plate ( which is also called a ‘tithe’ collection – figuratively speaking ) …. and people give what they can. ALL collections of any kind, is for the upkeep and ongoing of the Church / religion concerned.

    Nothing was ever a case of ‘look over there’ … as far as tithing is concerned – or the amount that is required…… That can’t be the case – because it still applies in various forms to so many religions. ??

    ——-

    I do agree, and acknowledge, that I have hurled a few insults myself on these pages – usually in defense of myself – and can say to the very best of my knowledge, that I have not instigated a slanging match. …. I don’t really have to explain, however, I do want to make it clear that I respond in kind ( mostly ) and if anyone has had a real ‘go’ at me, personally – I have a real ‘go’ back. …. Probably not at all productive in the long run, but certainly retaliation that is warranted at the time.

    Re : “I don’t think my argument was flawed. In what way was it flawed?”

    I refer you to your first paragraph ( April 17, 2015 at 6:26 pm ). …. You presume that a commenter is labelling ALL inhabitants of Utah as being Mormon. … I did not see that in Jexpats comment, at all. … In fact most of his/her comments throughout this thread, were political and related to Australia. !!

    Perhaps I should have said your ‘rejoinder’ was flawed – and not apply that to your argument. ??

    ——-

    The “Parthian” shot – … I enjoyed that. … military expertise on horseback ? Have ridden horses all my life ( until now – I cannot anymore due to physiological problems ) … but never had to fire something behind me from my riding position at a following foe !!! …. I am NOT having a go at you about that – it is an interesting study in history. … It ended up as being reduced or translated to the ‘Parting shot ‘ … which we all know …. and have used – as you did ( re the ‘toke’ ).

    Enough now — always good to talk to others about so many subjects raised on this website.

  58. Mark

    Annie. The point of my post wasn’t tithes. It was that a percentage of Islamic charity tax ie. zakat is mandated and reserved for jihad in the name of Allah, in other words Islamic terrorism. A tax that is collected from halal certification fees, fees that the majority of people in this country have no choice but to pay, no matter how small. No one here seems to want to address this fact. Are you and Jex et al content in the knowledge that every time you buy some beef, lamb or chicken part of the cost goes towards funding jihad? Who is engaging in jihad? ISIS, al Qaida, al Nusra, al Shabaab, Boko Haram and others. Do you think this is fair? Bringing Mormons and tithes into the debate is obfuscation and wilful ignorance of the elephant in the room.
    Read Wally’s post above re halal slaughter. As a person who has a labrador as an avatar and has ridden horses all her life I assume you have an affinity with animals. Go to Google Images and type in halal slaughter.

  59. Jexpat

    Mark: Mormons have consistently backed some of the most misogynistic, discriminatory, abusive and sociopathic practices and policies on the North American continent and beyond- all supported by a mandatory 10% tithe to the church (or whatever it is)

    Indeed, some have gone as far as to egg on open rebellion against the United States government.

    Check it out a more recent example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/13/nevada-bundy-cattle-ranch-armed-protesters

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/cliven-bundy-interview/index.html

    Yet it would seem that you’ve got no problem with any or all of this- whereas at the same time, getting your knickers into a twist over (trying not to laugh here) halal certification because, um… you despise Muslims.

    ps: Oddly enough, halal paranoia isn’t an issue in the US, and it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if some of Cliven Bundy’s own cattle ended up slaughtered for the Halal market.

  60. Mark

    Joxpat.The point of my post wasn’t tithes. It was that a percentage of Islamic charity tax ie. zakat is mandated and reserved for jihad in the name of Allah, in other words Islamic terrorism. A tax that is collected from halal certification fees, fees that the majority of people in this country have no choice but to pay, no matter how small. No one here seems to want to address this fact. Are you content in the knowledge that every time you buy some beef, lamb or chicken part of the cost goes towards funding jihad? Who is engaging in jihad? ISIS, al Qaida, al Nusra, al Shabaab, Boko Haram and others. Do you think this is fair? Bringing Mormons and tithes into the debate is obfuscation and wilful ignorance of the elephant in the room.

  61. Jexpat

    I see no difference between your assertions about halal and the Mormon church’s extensive and egregious political (and extra-political) efforts. Believe me, every time you patronise a Mormon business some portion of what you pay goes directly to the Republican party and its own terrorist activities.

    Having said that, part (albeit a small part) of me wishes you success in Parliament, because:

    A. We don’t eat beef and cattle ranching is a rather destructive practice;

    B. It would create quite the schism between the rural LNP and their elitist component in the cities and suburbs.

    I should also note that the export market for lamb would also be affected, so people who don’t eat beef, but like a bit of lamb would enjoy a significant price drop at their butcher shop.

  62. Annie B

    Mark …

    ** .. I have a couple of weeks back, researched halal slaughter … and do NOT wish to revisit it again.

    ** .. My avatar is of my Golden Retriever, not a Labrador, and yes, I have a great love of animals.

    ** .. Without using blogs, or any conspiracy site – I would like you provide links ( proof ) that directly states – from an authentic Islamic website, that Halal certification of foodstuffs – goes towards funding terrorism / radicalisation. ….

    And while you are at it, prove beyond a shadow of doubt that their so-called ‘tithe’ ( 2.5% – more like a wee offering ) … also goes partly towards funding terrorist activities.

    I will help you kick-start your search. – – – http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-14/fact-check-does-halal-certification-fund-terrorism/6383238 …. this is a fairly long article. One small part of which is :

    “A spokesman for the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre (AUSTRAC) – the government body that monitors money laundering and terrorism – told Fact Check that it had no information to indicate there are links to terrorism financing from halal certification fees.”

    The ABC’s fact check is often very useful, as they don’t just make a statement or two – they research the questions extensively, and come up with a conclusion.

    btw – Next time you seek a loan from a Bank – any Bank –
    you will be required to sign a form that gives AUSTRAC
    permission to trace your record of loans, credit and much else.
    The form states that it is for preventing money laundering and
    terrorism. ( words to that effect ).

    This is AUSTRAC : http://www.austrac.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/money_laundering_in_australia_2011.pdf

    The rest is up to you, if you wish. … I will be interested to see links you provide as proof of your claims.

  63. Lee

    “The point of my post wasn’t tithes. It was that a percentage of Islamic charity tax ie. zakat is mandated and reserved for jihad in the name of Allah, in other words Islamic terrorism.”

    Mark, where is the evidence of that? I recall the ABC recently posted about researching this claim, and they were unable to find any evidence that backed up this accusation.

    The money raised from Halal certification is really quite small compared to the money required to fund terrorist outfits. Why do you think that the claim of Halal certification funding terrorism is any more valid than the proceeds from the sale of petrol funding terrorism? Do you buy fuel?

  64. townsvilleblog

    There is NOTHING stupid about being concerned about Islamic extremism, Muslim’s also should express their disapproval of such extremism that we have seen at home and overseas.

  65. Lee

    Muslims do express their concern about extremism. Muslims have even passed information on to Australian police, identifying radicalised Muslim youths.

  66. mars08

    Christians also should express their disapproval of drone attacks which murder innocents… and illegal, needless, dishonest invasions which cause suffering and instability.

    Oh wait… many Christians DO disapprove. We just don’t see it on SEVEN News.

    Wake up to yourself, Townsvilleblog.

  67. Jexpat

    For everyone’s viewing pleasure:

    Halal in the Family

  68. Mark

    Townsvilleblog, one point. One man’s extremist is another man’s purist.

    Lee, ABC Fact Checker is not a reliable source.

  69. Jexpat

    One man’s extremist is another man’s purist.

    As the video sitcom alludes, here’s how to do it right:

    Arizona hate preacher who tells women they deserve rape now harasses Mosque-goers

    “Brother Dean Saxton is a far-right hate preacher who made his name by showing up at the University of Arizona and telling young women he deemed to be improperly dressed that they deserve rape.

    For years, Saxton stood on the campus harassing women, gaining so much infamy Vice News even made a mini documentary about him.

    Saxton has moved on from just targeting female college students. For the past week, he has decided to stand outside a mosque in Tempe and harass those who are worshiping there. In the process, he rips pages from the Quran and throws them onto the ground, stomping on them in protest.”

    More here: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/arizona-hate-preacher-who-tells-women-they-deserve-rape-now-harasses-mosque-goers/

  70. Mark

    For some reason this site won’t accept my reply to Annie. Jex, you can post as many links to bad behaviour by non Moslems as you like. The article was about halal certification, moral equivalence doesn’t address the issue.

    This article was an amateurish attempt at belittling ordinary people who are concerned at being compelled to pay an unnecessary and unwanted fee to purchase the necessities of life. Halal certification fees are one manifestation of creeping sharia. We only need to look to Europe to see where that leads. The author, like the Reclaim counter protesters, falsely links the Reclaim people with anti aboriginal racists. This is not only a lie, it is intellectual laziness and cowardice.
    A red herring to misrepresent the concerns and aims of ordinary Australians

  71. Jexpat

    Mark wrote: “ Halal certification fees are one manifestation of creeping sharia.

    We only need to look to Europe to see where that leads.

    Better to look to America:

  72. Mark

    Better to look to America:

    Hmm, try Dearborne Michigan.

  73. Mark

    Everytime I try to post a link to a Moslem site that links to Reliance of the Traveller (with the zakat rules) it disappears into the ether. Curiouser and curiouser. I’ll try a bit of lateral thinking to get around this.

  74. Jexpat

    City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

    http://nationalreport.net/city-michigan-first-fully-implement-sharia-law/

    …declared a National Report headline on Monday, causing an uproar on social media. Over 88,000 people shared the article, and many took action by calling city hall employees in Dearborn, Michigan, to voice their outrage.

    …However, their indignation was unfounded, as National Report, which calls itself “America’s #1 Independent News Team,” is actually a fake news site a la The Onion, and had posted the article as satire.

    …ll of their claims were patently false, and unsubstantiated with source links.

    Many readers were extremely upset, however, clearly not getting the ‘joke’. Commenter Thelma resorted to caps lock to voice her displeasure, writing, “Someone needs to step up and challenge this in the courts! This is TOTALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL!” Commenter Laura added, “And BTW, this is a result of the idiot liberalism gripping our country. Get with it people! Our founding fathers set up a wonderful system. Don’t abandon it! DEFEND IT with all your might!”

    http://nationalreport.net/city-michigan-first-fully-implement-sharia-law/

    XD

    Take home lesson: parody trolling is not yet extinct in the 21st Century.

  75. corvus boreus

    Mark(mark,mark),
    Do you think that the fact that the figurehead of ‘we-claim straya’ posted anti-Aboriginal diatribes(as well as suggesting ‘shooting lefties’) might have had something to do with this (anti-Islamic) movement being portrayed as bigots and extremists(as well as racists)?

    If the ‘Reclaim Australia’ movement really stood for defending the established secular laws and values of Australian society, they should also be condemning, for example, the attempts by ‘Christian’ Democrats to deny the rights of non-religious people to have their kids taught Ethics whilst other children are receiving religious indoctrination in the (NSW) public education system(why is children being taught ethics a bad thing?). This is a real (concrete, tangible) threat to others basic rights by those pushing a religious agenda.
    They do not, and instead choose to discriminate solely against Islam in their statements of purpose. This is hypocritical, and I have come to the conclusion that the main organisers of this ‘movement’ are a bunch of bigots.

    As I’ve stated previously, I will stand(and fight) to defend the secular laws of the land of my birth against any attempt to impose theocratic authority, but I will not stand with any group that espouses religious discrimination(positive or negative), let alone one that is happy to link with neo-nazis and other political extremists.

    PS, I would not choose to stand with the ‘leftist’ counter-rabble who thought the best refutation of a contrary viewpoint was to jostle, shout and spit across the beleaguered lines of police. I would rather see some flag wavers (and a few bigots) yelling at clouds than the clash of a bunch of polarised extremists committing violence in our streets.

    PPS, your claims of unreliability in the ABC Fact-checker would have more credibilty if you linked to some proof of inaccuracies. It would also help if you refrained from referencing the blog of A Bolt (repeated recipient of legal sanctions for falsehoods/inaccuracies) as having a ‘ring of truth’.

  76. Mark

    Crow, that may be so but the Reclaim rally had nothing to with criticising Aboriginals. Here we go again. Say something about Islam and some apologist will come along and point the finger at Christians. Tell that to the Yazidi girls and the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram .

  77. corvus boreus

    Stain,
    “That may be so but…”
    Yet again you offer no refutation of anything I state.
    I will not say ‘you can do better than that’, as I have received no indication of such.

    PS, As for the girls kidnapped(and likely worse) by Boko Haram, I deplore such as the act of a bunch of sick arseholes justifying their inhuman acts against females through selective interpretation of chosen theological texts. I will neither justify nor ‘apologise’ for such barbarities, whichever primitive penis-god sect such acts are attributed to.

  78. Rossleigh

    So Mark, all islamic people should be condemning the actions of some islamic people, but it’s ok for one of the organisers of the Reclaim Australia to mark comments about “shooting lefties” and you don’t feel any need to condemn that?
    Similarly, you abuse people and then complain that they’re abusing you when they criticise what you say.
    You, sir, are simply a troll with very little evidence or information to add to the topic.
    But hey, troll away, because I suspect that you’re aim is to get yourself banned so you can have a whinge to your friends or your mummy that you were banned from the site because people who disagree with you can’t take criticism.
    How much does Halal verification add, btw?
    I’d be interested if you had anything like a figure.

  79. Lee

    Mark, I’ve seen quite a bit of anti-Aboriginal sentiment expressed online by supporters of the Reclaim Australia movement. It may or may not have been present at their rallies (I didn’t go) but it certainly is online.

    We have practising Christians in our parliament who are turning a blind eye while guards on Manus Island are raping women and children in detention. Most of Australia doesn’t care about this barbaric behaviour. Only about 15% of Australians are actually aware that seeking asylum is not illegal. It is extremely hypocritical of Australians to regard all Muslims as barbaric.

  80. Mark

    Rossleigh, how many lefties have been shot by ‘bigots and racists’? I’d be interested if you had anything like a figure.
    How many people have been murdered by Islamists emulating Mohammed?
    As I’ve noted before, throwing insults is what a lot of contributors to this site do often. I haven’t complained about it, I do it myself.
    My mother died years ago. If I was banned from this site I wouldn’t be whinging about it. It’s not the sort of thing one whinges about.
    How much does halal certification add to cost? I don’t know, the whole thing seems to be shrouded in secrecy. Andrew Bolt pointed out that according to the ABC Fact Checker one of the twenty odd certification bodies made $650,000 in one year from halal certification, the rest refusing to say how much they made. As I said in a post above, it’s the principle.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-14/fact-check-does-halal-certification-fund-terrorism/6383238

    ‘The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Inc (AFIC) is a registered charity, dedicated to promoting halal food and the institution of halal. Its financial statements show it earned an income of $2.8 million in 2012, of which $647,722 came from halal certification fees, after expenses.’

    A troll? That’s your definition.

    You can download a PDF of Reliance of the Traveller. On page 272, section 8.17 it outlines how zakat is to be distributed.

    http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/resources/reliance2_complete2.pdf

  81. Mark

    Lee, to be opposed to halal certification and slaughter does not automatically make one an indigenophobe, for want of a better word. Some people hold such views, not all.

    We have practising humanists in our parliament who are turning a blind eye to detainees who are raping men, women and children in detention. Do we want these perpetrators in our country? Would you be willing to offer one of these a spare room?
    Of course not.

  82. Kaye Lee

    Mark,

    How many people have been murdered by Islamists emulating Mohammed in Australia? Do you ever consider cultural differences and the fact that Muslim refugees are fleeing the violence you describe. ISIS have killed more Muslims than anything else. To try to stereotype billions of people living in entirely different cultures with entirely different backgrounds is just silly – worse, it endangers the social cohesion we enjoy in Australia.

    As for halal certification, it is the new burqa. And of course, burqas are the new hijab. And hijabs still make the odd appearance as a seasonal change from the ever-popular application to build a new mosque in a fair-dinkum Aussie neighbourhood.

    All these “issues” – though the fact that they can even be described as “issues” is telling in and of itself – are manifestations of the same moral panic over signifiers of the Muslim presence in Australia, as well as in other Western societies.

    “For most Muslims living in Australia, maintaining a halal diet simply means abstaining from forbidden items such as pork and alcohol rather than scanning every item in our grocery carts for the halal certification stamp.

    Yet the campaign against halal certification impacts on our lives, too. Its message is that, however discrete our presence, however well-integrated we may believe ourselves to be, we are not welcome here. The anti-Muslim racists behind the campaign want us to know that our absorption into Australian society makes them gag. We must be rejected, spat out, vomited from the body politic. In other words, purged.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2014/11/27/4137397.htm

  83. rossleighbrisbane

    Ok, Mark, instruct us all, what’s the Reclaim Australia plan for dealing with Islamic extremism? Come on, what would you do to counter it?

  84. Lee

    Actually Mark, I have some friends and some work colleagues who are Muslims. I’d give all of them a bed and trust them with my life. That’s far more than I could say about numerous Christians I know.

  85. Mark

    Lee. I am in the same boat as you re Moslems. I would also do the same for the Christians I know. But once again, another one, you, circumvents the question. What do we do with the perpetrators of sexual violence we have in detention? Are you willing to vouch for them and take responsibility for them?

  86. Lee

    Remove them from their jobs and prosecute them to the full extent of the law.

  87. Annie B

    @ Mark ( mark ? ) ….

    Re your comment : “How many people have been murdered by Islamists emulating Mohammed? “

    Considering we, as Australians, under this government, have committed troops ( now ) and previously, air arm to the military in Iraq and other ME areas, we have to embrace the entire spectrum of Islamic extremist brutality across the globe. …. Australia is ‘in it’ for the long haul ( apparently ). BUT ….

    Let’s just deal with Muslims – eh ? 11 million Muslims have been killed by Islamic extremists since 1948″ – that’s just for starters. That’s over 196,000 per year !!!

    Not to mention the millions of others, of other religions, creeds, identities and ethnicity – put to death for an ideology – which is NOT to make people Muslim, but to force them to become Islamic – to the terrorists understanding and demand of what Islam is. … This applies to both Sunni and Sh’ia sects, and Sharia law applies to both – as it is allegedly Islamic law – and is interpreted in many different ways – including the way of the extremists.

    A Muslim follows the teachings of Islam ( the religion ) … owe their fealty to Allah. …. Islam is not JUST the religion but also a political and ideological state – to which many many peaceful Muslims do NOT subscribe.

    ……

    Ref. your link to the very large ( 1135 pages ) .pdf – islamicbullitin.org and page / point made there. If the zakat is 2.5% of a Muslims’ wages, and taking into consideration the many Muslims that are not earning a wage ( children, teens, out of work etc. ) in our country … and given that zakat is divided into 8 distinct sections of distribution, which cannot be given twice ( if an Islamic follower qualifies for 2 or more, only 1 amount under one section can be given ) the amount of $ given towards your point in that bulletin ( 272 – 8.17 ) is miniscule. … How far would say, $60,000 per year, ( or $80,000 if you wish to be pedantic about it ) go towards arming, clothing, feeding – militants intent on destruction – here or over there. ….. Not bloody far. …. It is not even double the minimum wage in this country.

    While you have every right to address anyone on any subject, your collective comments sway most definitely to encouraging a distinct distrust ( even hatred ) towards a peaceful people, the majority of which makes up the 2.2% of Muslims living here today.

    There are marginalised people out there – youth in particular, who could be swayed quite easily to an ideology that would suit their own personal purposes – tuff cat stuff. … To flex their muscles and show the world a thing or three. …. THESE are the young that we have to rescue, and treat properly – give them a direction that is productive – not antipathetic / hostile – and worse. ..And they are not just Muslims, but Australian disenchanted youth from various ethnic and societal areas of the community.

    Your continual fear-mongering on this site, has had its’ day – it’s way past time to give up Mark.

    End of ……..

  88. Matters Not

    some friends and some work colleagues who are Muslims

    That ‘common sense’ claim ought to be analysed in more detail. Whether one ‘professors’ to be a ‘Christian’, a ‘Muslim’ or a ‘whoever’ is a matter of choice. One is not born a Christian or a Muslim ….

    While birth location is certainly influential on choices made, it’s not in the same category as ‘race’, ‘sex’ and the like, over which an individual has no control.

    Mark’s ‘choice’ to use ‘Moslem’ rather than ‘Muslim’ is also a matter of choice.

    http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524

    It would seem that Mark is a ‘baby boomer’ who is yet to grow up.

  89. Florence nee Fedup

    If there are asylum seekers in detention centres raping women and children, they should be charge like anyone else. This government has a duty of care to do so. To my knowledge, this has not occurred. One wonders why?

    I hope one is also aware, that not all asylum seekers are Muslim. Many are of the Christian and like faith.

    Greater concern, is no one has been charged, nor looks like being charged. No on seems to care.

  90. Lee

    http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/17/chomsky-says-us-is-world-s-biggest-terrorist/

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/unworthy-victims-western-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990-39149394

    Since 1776 (a total of 239 years), the United States, which is recognised as a Christian nation, has spent 217 years in war. Does anyone not think that these Christians have a serious problem? The only time the U.S. went five years without war (1935-40) was during the isolationist period of the Great Depression. And which part of America’s population is the most supportive of her going to war? The Christians.

    Tell me again how Christianity is a religion of peace.

  91. Lee

    There are *guards* in the detention centres who are raping women and children. Our Christian government is ignoring it. Moves are underway to introduce legislation that would see whistle blowers jailed for reporting these horrendous crimes.

  92. Jexpat

    Lee:

    Since 1776 (a total of 239 years), the United States, which is recognised as a Christian nation, has spent 217 years in war.

    To be fair, the US is not Christian nation (this despite Murdoch media protestations to the contrary).

    See. e.g. Treaty of Tripoli, 1796, Art. 11. “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

    http://ato1952.com/2015/03/15/united-states-is-not-a-christian-nation-treaty-of-tripoli/

    Also, whatever the US’s total years at war or meddling abroad might be, 4 of those years (involving the highest number of American casualties anywhere to this day) involved warring with itself over racial slavery- culminating in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

    Lincoln who said, but a month earlier:

    With malice toward none, with charity for all… let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

    http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html

    ps: back in 1786, George III was kind enough to extend “the King’s mercy to one John Caesar, a black African fellow and former slave from the America’s who’d escaped to London- arriving in Australia on the Alexander, one of ships of the First Fleet. Among other things, he’s celebrated for attempting to reclaim Australia as our first bushranger.

    pps: Down the track, the British were kind enough to provide us with further North Americans, some of whom were deposited at what we call Canada Bay at inner west Sydney.

  93. Lee

    “To be fair, the US is not Christian nation (this despite Murdoch media protestations to the contrary).”

    Let me know when the USA elects a non-Christian president. Atheists are included in the non-Christian group.

  94. corvus boreus

    People nominating themselves as ‘Athiest, Agnostic, Secularist or Humanist’ were recently referred to as “godless” in a piece by Mark Coultain in Murdoch’s ‘Da Strayan’.
    Convicted serial-libelist and bigot Anders Blot ramped up the hysteria and dumbed things down even further by referring to these denominations as “anti-Christian”.
    This is about as accurate as calling invertebrate animals “anti-bonists”.
    It also means that Blot himself(a professed agnostic) is, by his default definition, an enemy of Christ and his followers.

  95. Lee

    Regardless of what is contained in the Treaty of Tripoli, the lines between the Christian church and state are very much blurred. In a country that regularly boasts its freedom, Christians impose their beliefs on everyone else. Throughout US history we have seen that Christians are not afraid to use their power in harmful and destructive ways to get what they want.

    In law courts, one can swear an oath upon the Christian Bible to tell the truth. A non-Christian can also choose to affirm to tell the truth, without the use of a Bible or referring to God. A non-Christian is not permitted to swear an oath upon any other religion’s accepted text.

    American money has the words “In God we trust” printed on it. There’s a long history pertaining to the usage of those four words, where church and state have melded.

    Oklahoma has just passed a bill prohibiting atheists to marry. There are tax advantages available to married couples that are not available to anyone else, which provides incentive for atheists to marry where no other incentives apply. Although people are permitted to marry if they belong to another faith, it was a bill introduced by Christians. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a law like that introduced many decades ago but today it’s just ludicrous.

  96. Florence nee Fedup

    Abbott, Howard, along with right wing bigots proudly claim our law and system is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, whatever that means.

    “Answer: The term “Judeo-Christian” refers to something that has its source in the common foundations of Judaism and Christianity. The Bible includes the Jewish Scriptures of the Old Testament, so the moral foundations laid down in Judaism are upheld in Christianity”

    Halal Certified Wine … And Vegan Approved Cheese!

    Many would query seriously this belief, that arose I believe in the right wing groups in the USA.

  97. Jexpat

    Lee:

    I have never seen a bible used in state or federal court (or in other forums or contexts where administration of an oath is required) -though my professional experience is limited to courts in the US states of California and Oregon. Typically, the oath will contain the words “so help me God,” but that’s not an exclusively Christian phrase, nor is it a requirement. It’s more perfunctory longstanding (and expected) than anything else.

    The “In God We Trust” bit originated in war times, first appearing in Francis Scott Key’s the Star Spangled Banner, written during the British bombardment of Fort McHenry, near Baltimore. (Americans have a peculiar propensity for flag idolatry, having many rituals, pledges, songs, stories, nicknames associated with it -and it even has its own special holiday, Flag Day).

    It was first proposed on coinage and currency during the bleakest days of the Civil War- and “God” was later added to various things during the height of the Red Scare (thwarting the Godless Communists) in the 1950’s.

    It’s important to note that “God” does not delineate a particular religion or denomination. The framers of the American Republic were inclined toward Deism in the Enlightenment sense, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, and that there were certain natural laws and inalienable rights flowing from them. Moreover, they were strongly motivated to avoid the religious conflicts that had engulfed Europe over the centuries.

    See, i.e., http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

    Now, that doesn’t mean that fundamentalists won’t continue to make the so called “Christian” nation claim- and be backed by corporate media types. It doesn’t meant that they won’t persistently attempt to legislate in an unconstitutional manner (and spend many millions of taxpayer funds defending their laws in court- where they lose). They are, after all- irrational, yet “infallible” extremists- and that’s what extremists do, and why the more moderate among us must be “eternally vigilant.”

    Also, among Americans, Oklahoma (and several other states) have a reputation for profound absurdity, and there’s often speculation that it must be something in the water. 😉

    For example, not long back, Oklahoma passed an hysterical anti-sharia law, which among other things, they were astonished to discover, outlawed their own (unconstitutional) obsession with attempting to post or put up stone monuments of the 10 Commandments in every courtroom or public space. Quelle horreur!

  98. Florence nee Fedup

    In this country bibles are used. Making affirmation often meant you were seen as lesser person. Hope them days have gone. Along with not using Mrs.

  99. Annie B

    @Florence nee Fedup …

    A lot of Christians across the world, deny any affiliation with Judaism. … They are wrong to do so….. they also ( to this day ) deny that Jesus was Jewish. … That too, is wrong.

    Any Christian Church theologian ( anywhere, not just the U.S. ) who has seriously studied biblical history, the origins of Christianity etc., would be able to say that there is no doubt that Jesus was of the Jewish faith – Jesus of Nazareth ( an Essene Jew ? – but some doubt still remains whether he was of the Sadducees, the Pharisees, or the Essene sects ). … He was a radical Jew – thought to be radical particularly by his own faith ( other Rabbi’s of the time ). …

    He is referred to as many things in the Bible, among which is “Rabbi” … as he no doubt was a Rabbi
    ( Master ) himself. …. His Hebrew name was Yeshua. …. He had incredible knowledge from the age of 12, of the purity of laws in Hebrew.

    It is a concept based on history, and began as far back as 1644, where the term Jewish Christian was used as an adjective in a book written by a William Rathband. …. there are several ( from the little I have searched ) sects that have been established to espouse their own ideologies, who call themselves Judeo or Jewish Christians, but there is always a twist according to who runs the websites – and they are only websites – there is no building to my knowledge that is specifically called ” the Judeo-Christian Church ” where one can enter and attend services.

    A little verse written by I don’t know who … says it most succinctly, bearing in mind that the ‘chosen’ race by God was the Jewish people – ( again ask any theologian ) :

    How odd of God
    to choose the Jews
    but not so odd
    as those who choose
    a Jewish God,
    yet spurn the Jews.

    And to this day, Jews are spurned and blamed for so much. Not every Israelite is a Jew, not every Jew is an Israelite. …. Israel is a political arm mainly of Judaism, and as such is as possible of being corrupt as ANY political regime in any country. We have ample knowledge of what a corrupt political regime is in our own country – right now.

  100. Jexpat

    Florence:

    Australia has many practices that would violate separation of church and state in the American sense, which is contained in the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Christian chaplains in public schools, for example would clearly violate the Establishment Clause, and laws against Halal certification proposed by federal LNP members would be prohibited by the Free Exercise Clause.

    Having said that, some provisions, like the Article VI, paragraph 3 of the US Constitution:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

    are largely de jure.

    Americans do, particularly in certain regions, apply a de facto religious test- one that, for many years, would have precluded a Catholic from the presidency. And suffice to say, an avowed atheist is unlikely to be elected to the US presidency during any of our lifetimes.

  101. Annie B

    @ Jexpat …

    A concise and excellent post.

    ” Now, that doesn’t mean that fundamentalists won’t continue to make the so called “Christian” nation claim – and be backed by corporate media types. >>>>> etc “

    How right that is … and may I add, that their continual proselytising is nauseous – via email, via Facebook, via any means they dream up. … even by snail mail.

    I get extremely annoyed at the many ( 95% of them American ) people who continue to send ‘religious’ stuff to me – unsolicited – because they believe they have the RIGHT to do so, and to dictate. …. One of the most ridiculous of emails that has done the rounds time and time again, refers to the ‘loss of God’ on their buildings, their money ( impossible ), their courts, in their schools – etc. ….

    Facebook : “Like” if you believe in and love Jesus !! …. “If you don’t share, you are not a true believer” – ad nauseum. …. So yes, Christians ( U.S.) do indeed impose their beliefs. …. It as an invasion of privacy.

    Are they perhaps the most fear-filled of Christian believers – terrified of losing, instead of accepting, peacefully and privately, their own beliefs ?

    ….

    Re the Oklahoma piece. … The Capitol Building has a sculpture of Moses in it – denoting the U.S. affirmation of the 10 commandments !! … hmmm.

  102. Jexpat

    Lee:

    There are lots worse than that on any given day:

    E.g., Tennessee lawmaker tables abortion bill exceptions because rape and incest are ‘not verifiable’

    http://crooksandliars.com/2015/04/tennesee-goper-opposes-exceptions-abortion

    Fox Host: To Stop Terror Recruitment, We Need A “More Robust, Manly, Not Feminized Version Of Christianity”

    http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/04/21/fox-host-to-stop-terror-recruitment-we-need-a-m/203356

    Michele Bachmann says the rapture is coming, thanks to President Barack Obama’s policies on Iran’s nuclear program and marriage equality.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/20/michele-bachmann-obama-rapture_n_7104136.html

    These sorts a far greater- and clearer and more present danger to western society than Muslim fundamentalists ever will be.

  103. Annie B

    @Jexpat …

    Agree wholeheartedly. …. One link in particular had me laughing outright.

    “The Rapture” … has been coming for at least as long as I have had a computer. … I have been besieged by sects like the Pentecostals ( who are lining up and waiting with baited breaths ) … and that goes back now 15 years plus. …. Don’t think Obama has been in the White House for 15 years ??? LOL.

    Noticed the “End Times” was mentioned in just that article alone. … the Pents have been waffling about that for such a long time – they seem to have forgotten their Bible for a moment or five. “I will come as a thief in the night” – God said ( according to scripture ). Various churches claim otherwise – while trying to frighten the living daylights out of vulnerable readers with their own devised predictions.

    There certainly ARE very dangerous mobs out there in Christendom.

  104. Jexpat

    Annie B;

    Compared with their American counterparts, George Christensen and Cory Bernardi are nothing more that petty, petulant posers.

    And that goes double for their pathetic supporters- few of which could make it outside their parochial little worlds.

  105. Lee

    “These sorts a far greater- and clearer and more present danger to western society than Muslim fundamentalists ever will be.”

    @Jexpat – totally agree. I have several American Facebook friends that I’ve met online in various places and several of them are very politically aware. They regularly post news articles about this stuff that we wouldn’t otherwise see in Australian media. Thanks for your links. I hadn’t seen those articles before.

  106. Wally

    So how do 65 of the last 70 comments do anything to stop animals (other than pigs and pigeons) being slaughtered cruelly? Or did I misread the original topic?

  107. Jexpat

    If you’re not a vegetarian, then you’ll have to go back, have a look at and better delineate what you think of as cruel.

    Caveat: this may take a broader bit of life experience, perhaps from a very young age, than most people have- or, in retrospect, may ever have wanted to have.

  108. Emily Davison

    to go completely off topic
    RossLeigh said “why aren’t they coming out and condemning Vegans for their extremism?”

    as a vegan, I was once accused of being a militant vegan for using “shampoo that hasnt been tested on animals and stuff like that” – which is not “militant” but the very heart of vegan

    and as for Halal, I will take ReclaimAustralia seriously about Halal (“Muslim tax”) when they launch their anti Kosher (“Jewish tax” campaign, and then maybe go after Sanitarium and their 7th Day Adventist vegetarian / christian tax

  109. Wally

    @Jexpat “better delineate what you think of as cruel” What part of being electrocuted do you find pleasant? Suffering a heart attack from loss of blood is unpleasant to say the least and I am certain that having sharp spikes thrust into the back of your neck or skull is pretty brutal. I am not a vegetarian but having been a witness to Halal slaughtering techniques I can assure you it is barbaric to say the least.

    Have you ever witnessed animals being slaughtered Jexapat?

  110. Jexpat

    Wally:

    I spent much of my childhood on a working rural property, so what would be your guess?

    All methods of slaughter (or hunting and fishing) involve some degree of cruelty- while I’m not defending Halal or Kosher on these grounds, what’s more important is that the animals are well cared for and lead as comfortable and husbandry methods prioritise as normal a life as possible for the animal.

  111. Wally

    Animals slaughtered by farmers represent a very small portion of the animals consumed by Australians and there is no comparison to the number of beasts cruelly slaughtered so producers can obtain Halal certification. Instant death from a bolt gun is not cruel because there is no suffering. Why should all of the animals slaughtered suffer when only a small percentage are consumed by people who want Halal certified meat? By making all meat Halal certified reduces the costs to those who want Halal but why shouldn’t the people who want Halal pay extra?

  112. Jexpat

    Wally:

    It sounds like you may never have seen the inside of one of our abbattoirs (much less seen industrial scale “farming” methods). There’s considerably more than what’s told that meets the eye.

    Or considered the prolonged cruelties exposed in the live export market, which will doubtlessly increase if your crusade against halal is successful.

  113. Wally

    @Jexpat “It sounds like you may never have seen the inside of one of our abattoirs” I suggest you scroll up the page and read my initial post before posting ludicrous insulting posts.

    Only a dickhead would suggest that Australia should not minimise animal cruelty in its processing plants, I do not have a crusade against Halal. I have no objection at all where it is carried out to supply meat for people who have a religious need BUT don’t do Halal when it is not required!

  114. corvus boreus

    In my neck of the woods I could not buy guaranteed halal meat even if I felt the need, which I do not.
    Apart from having no theological imperative, I also know that stress and panic release adrenaline, which makes meat taste sour.
    The most delicious meat I ever ate came from a young steer (named “sam”) who died happy, home-killed with a mouthful of banana, oblivious to his impending fate.
    By contrast, the meat from most commercial outlets tastes of the prolonged terror of shipping and slaughterhouse processes, bitter and tough.
    Those interested in more humane(and thus tastier) methods of factory slaughter should research the works of Temple Grandin.

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