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John FraserJanuary 17, 2014 at 11:10 pm

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Having IINet as my ISP I was disappointed to read their criticism of the NBN and their unwillingness to sign up.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/iinet-refuses-sign-appalling-nbn/2142550/

All they have done is hastened my decision to (No contract) bundle with Optus.

I very much doubt that I will ever go back to Telstra.

As for Abbott he can take a running jump of a short plank.
lawrencewinderJanuary 18, 2014 at 12:07 am

This is only typical of the “Office-Boy” mentality from the inevitable downward descent of Australian Liarbrilism … no imagination, no ideas, no sense of nation, no future except as lickspittles of business greed.
Joey Joe JoeJanuary 18, 2014 at 1:51 am

@ John Fraser – Did you actually read the article or did you just read ‘iinet refuses to sign up to NBN’?

Of your article: “The ISP’s chief regulatory officer Steve Dalby says the proposed wholesale deal would make iiNet responsible for NBN Co’s failures.”

What that article does not say is that under that agreement iiNet would have to cover CSGs [customer service guarantee] payments and TIO charges for failures and faults in which NBN co are responsible – Similar to how Telstra was recently fined $500,000 in CSG charges.

Now I hardly think that is unreasonable buddy considering NBN co are currently NOT meeting these standards. It is like say ” Yes, I will take your potentially $500,000 worth of charges”.

If anything iiNet’s been the only ISP I have seen voicing their want for the full NBN dude – not to mention iinet currently has the largest chunk of NBN connections thus far.
Deena BennettJanuary 18, 2014 at 3:10 am

Surely Australian business would see the benefit ensuing from a fast and efficient national broadband network, and if the Liberal party are being managed by this group of people, then surely, or am I missing something here? Ah, sorry, a bit slow. We are up for a two tier system, one for the plebs at 25mbps, and another for the “others” that will supply the full benefits, but incurring some serious costs. So, after some twenty years of one of the most exciting and industrious episodes in Australian commercial history the average “bloke in the street”, Australian society, has gained absolutely nothing from the mining boom
Deena BennettJanuary 18, 2014 at 3:16 am

Thank you Mr. Thomas. Your letter arrived as I was writing mine. The information you have included has long been suspected, but I fear will never make the MSM here.
Alexander ThomasJanuary 18, 2014 at 3:09 am

Australian businesses whether small or big lack technical, innovative and research skills and that includes content and apps marketing as well as PR/journalism (Australia was late to get into content,apps marketing just like with other technologies and telecom providers including Internet backwards and that includes speed, customer service, etc. Australian customer service for most sectors horrible yet that is all the country has been focussed on as written below with regards to job requirements under various Australian job sites). It’s easier to get in IT graduates or ones with business and IT backgrounds including journalistic ones (qualifications, skills and experience) and train them like the rest of the world for those jobs (Easier for IT people to acquire business or journalistic skills or gain those qualifications rather than the other way round). US, Canada, UK, China, India, etc does that but no Australia still thinks relationship building or communications is most important (SEEK, MyCareer, CareerOne and other Australian job sites would show that). Backward and 30 years behind as innovative approach took over from relationship approach then which was started by P&G, IBM, etc and which now continues due to Google, FB, Tesla, etc. That’s why the world’s leading firms have innovation and technology, as those 2 are most important even though relationship building is also there.

Reality of Australian marketers/marketing, logistics and supply chain and other areas too:
Australia is a country that has lost out in many areas and will continue to do so due to 3 main reasons-innovation, technical skills and education (all way behind). Retail and manufacturing aren’t the only industries that have faced challenges due to these 3 reasons; other sectors too. Add the niche strategy that Australia has used for decades via agriculture, mining, etc and that would be the 4th failure-putting all its eggs into 1 basket for decades instead of using the diversification strategy.

Let’s start with the tertiary education sector which few years back was Australia’s 3rd largest export sector (now 4th). How does it survive? Foreign students especially from China and India though lately South Americans, North Americans and Europeans too. How many Australians have a university qualification? Australia population represents 0.3% of the world population and just 25% of that have a university qualification. How many have a Masters qualification? Not many. Some to most firms in Australia consider Masters overqualified. Well, sad news for 90 to 99% of the businesses in Australia that represent small to medium sized ones – rest of the world have people who have either 2 Master qualifications or PhDs and professional certifications. Unless, good at entrepreneurship, not needed to study. Sadly, for Australia, that has gone behind especially when it’s niche strategy also got busted because Australia has been behind with innovations and technologies since World War 2. Also, how many foreign exchange students from Australia land in Asia? Not many compared to ones from US, Canada, UK, etc. So, those countries are learning about Asian cultures where as most Australian foreign students land in US, UK, etc (psychically close countries instead of the psychically distant countries as well). US, UK universities are still the best in the world and most are cheaper than the Australian ones nowadays as Australia’s become expensive for that so the universities that are on the same level as Australia are now the challengers. Which are those countries? Canada, Germany, Japan, Singapore, China (mainland and HK), etc. Addition to those, there are the blended learning (online) and MOOCs that are challenging the educational landscape, starting from primary education right unto tertiary one.

Where is Australia for innovations and technologies? The country doesn’t encourage much of both including funding which is the reason why Australian startups end up in USA. Australia gets 75% of its GDP through services as it’s a developed nation though it has come out with some innovations but not that many compared to the rest of the world even with the basic innovations. Others have gone for coopetition like Apple, Samsung, Google,etc;Netflix and Amazon;Tesla and various automobile firms and so many others where rivals don’t just work together but innovate as well. Australia has zilch there. Then there is the blue ocean strategy as well where not only low cost innovations occur but a whole new market segment comes up. Rest of the world so many while Australia hardly any. Even New Zealand is above Australia when it comes to innovation.

Taking marketing technology/digital marketing as the industry, here is the reality of Australian marketers/marketing – some weaknesses including reasons why Australia has failed (they’re all genuine articles that have come up in the last few weeks to couple of months):
1) Marketer study warns of skills shortages in digital marketing in Australia
2) Two-thirds of Aus marketers ‘aren’t effective at digital’
3) Aussie brands failing to embrace digital real-time customer service
4) Lack of skills a threat to projects
5) Is Australia That Far Behind in the Digital Market?
6) Big data policies lacking in Australian and New Zealand organisations: survey
7) Australian firms lagging behind
8 ) Australian retailers are digital-relationship laggards: Capgemini & Sydney University study reveals
9) Australian SMEs not meeting consumers on social media: statistics from Yellow Pages report
10) PayPal: Only 14 Percent of Australian SMEs Are Taking Advantage of Online
11) Latest ABS statistics: many Australian businesses still not engaging online
12) Australian businesses struggling with cross-channel marketing
13) Australian manufacturers are failing to invest in productivity raising IT: study
14) Average of 44 small businesses closing their doors each day, according to Australian Bureau of Statistics data
15) Experts say Australian business being left behind
16) Small Business Left Behind As Australian Business Confidence Lifts: NAB
17) Australian small businesses are late to the online marketing party
18) Too little, too late: Is Australia losing the online retail game?

Some of the reasons for the above could be seen from the following:
1) Can Australia’s education system meet demand for digital marketers? (Even top universities of Australia are way behind compared to counterparts from US, UK, Canada, etc where students can take subjects from different schools like Arts, Engineering, Business, etc. Additionally, some Australian universities still teach traditional subjects at universities [The two university comparison examples can be University of Sydney via Commerce degree and WUSTL of US both via Marketing major]).
2) Aussie women lag behind men in numeracy skills
3) Aussies spend big on technology, but don’t know how to use it
4) Small Business Nation 2013 – Around 90 to 99% of the businesses in Australia are small to medium sized ones though most are neither innovative nor have much of technology (not tech savvy)
5) Australia is Well Behind Other OECD Countries in Pre-School Education
6) University rankings show Asian rise and Australian slip
7) Australian students slipping behind in maths, reading: OECD report
8 ) If Australia Could Get Over Its ‘Fear of Failure’ Tech Startup Firms Could Contribute $109B to Economy by 2033, Create 540,000 New Jobs – Google Study
9) Australia is no innovation leader: GE (connected to Australia lifts ranking in Global Innovation Index, but still lags behind New Zealand)
10) Australia at risk of squandering expat expertise as brain drain hits reverse
11) Is Australia Less Tech-Savvy than We Thought?

(More of the marketing weaknesses in last 1 year and a bit on the logistics and supply chain in relation to Australia can be found under http://loveroftechnologyandbusiness.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/reality-of-australian-marketers-and.html. It also has the components or landscapes of Marketing Technology and Digital Marketing). As mentioned under that, Brand valuation could be seen via BrandZ of WPP as well as Interbrand of Omnicom and brandirectory.com that is part of Brand Finance. The top brand from Australia would be Woolworths ranked in the 100s way behind the ones from US, UK, Canada, India, China, etc. Woolworths and Coles duopoly in the supermarket sector though IGA, Aldi and Costco are 3 other players there ( https://theconversation.com/factcheck-is-our-grocery-market-one-of-the-most-concentrated-in-the-world-16520). Zara as well as others are knocking DJ and Myer (http://www.fool.com.au/2013/08/14/clothing-retailers-be-afraid-very-afraid/). All of them have failed with innovation and technology (just like
most Australian industrial sector) which can be seen under http://www.afr.com/p/australian_retailers_stumped_by_meuCL7di6LxiZG4VotdITL.

US at least did something with 3D and 4D printing-part of disruptive innovation that could challenge emerging and developing nations;what has Australia come out with.US manufacturing also fell into recession 30 years back but came out 10 years later with innovation-Intel is 1 proof of that and that video is ‘Made in USA’ under America Revealed under PBS.org. Innovation took over 30 years back from customer centric approach started by P&G,IBM,etc that went on to Google,FB,etc and that’s world’s top firms and ones that survive depend on innovation and technologies. Also, if going to say robotics, well most jobs that exist today won’t exist in 10 years time thanks to technologies-need to adapt and change. China, Japan, etc have robot chefs. Self service revolution has existed for more than a century-ATMs, kiosks at airports, etc as well as retail sector are
proof of that. 3D and 4D printing also there. Blended learning that has gone online as well as MOOCs which includes Coursera and Udacity are changing educational landscape from primary to tertiary education [US,UK and Australian top unis have their courses there and it can be done for free without certificates but if want certificates, they are cheaper than traditional education though not all courses are under the MOOCs]. There are more including hybrid trade shows. DVD rentals are backward technologies that rest of the world came up with a decade or 2 ago as there are Netflix, Hulu,etc.

Australia’s way behind in technology and innovations-both marketing and supply chain + also transportation as it’s just got on to mobile payments which rest of the developed world have been on for about a decade-some of the emerging nations have been on it for 5 to 10 years also.
PeterFJanuary 18, 2014 at 5:11 am

Deena Bennett, Don’t forget that in the two tiered system, those business who pay the $5,000 (touted possible charges) to connect FTTP will be able to charge this as a business cost: the TAXPAYER will pay 30% of those costs by way of tax forgone.
TitaniumFireflyJanuary 18, 2014 at 9:43 am

Technology is an ever evolving thing where perfection one day is obsolete in 6 months. For anyone to think in today’s age that 25 Mbps is “good enough” is obviously NOT good enough to make executive decisions, being as out of touch with the world as they are. All I can say is put responsible and forward thinking leadership in place before Australia is ruined and her citizens suffer…
rossleighbrisbaneJanuary 18, 2014 at 9:55 am

I used to think that it would be hard to beat Billy McMahon for the title of “Best Imbecile Prime Minister”, but Abbott is determined to do make it a no contest!
revolutionarycitizenJanuary 18, 2014 at 10:13 am

It is a matter of money, it is perfectly acceptable to want everyone to have a FTTH connection but exactly who is going to pay for it?

Also, speed is a false argument for business, business has had access to fibre networks in Australia for decades, it isn’t cheap but it is there. So the notion that we’re lagging behind because of our poor infrastructure is a nonsense. We’re lagging behind because we lack the money to invest in creating new technologies both in the hardware and software areas. Australia went from a pioneer of computer technology to being wholly reliant on imported technology because no-one thought it would be a good idea to make computer chips in a country with some of the best silica-sands deposits in the world. Same as we don’t make any titanium or titanium alloys even though we’re a significant miner of rutile sands.

We’re lagging behind for any other reason than we’re lazy, far more interested in having our enormous superannuation savings gambled on the stock-market rather than having them invested in real wealth generating industries.

Just imagine, some computer game development budgets are now measured in the hundreds of millions per game, how many Australian companies would be willing to invest in that market?

We’ll just keep digging holes, because it’s easy and doesn’t ask us to do anything.
johnlord2013January 18, 2014 at 9:23 am

“The problem with designing a network to meet the needs of today is that it denies you the ability to meet the needs of tomorrow”.
John FraserJanuary 18, 2014 at 10:28 am

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@"Joey Joe Joe"

How would IINet be responsible for a customer who doesn't have the NBN ?
Joe BanksJanuary 18, 2014 at 10:41 am

I have said before, you can see the pain in Malcolm Turnbull’s eyes every time he talks about FTTN.
KerriJanuary 18, 2014 at 11:14 am

Whilst i accept Abbott’s position as a Technological Moron, I find it hard to comprehend that Turnbull seriously believes the garbage he is saying? Or is Malcolm just too old to get it?
Peter HamrolJanuary 18, 2014 at 10:26 am

Australians will have to wait until LABOR wins government and the sooner, the better for all of us … it’s not only the NBN that will be old technology, but also every other social and infrastructure reforms put in place by LABOR that will have to be repaired and brought back into commission …
John FraserJanuary 18, 2014 at 11:45 am

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@"Joey Joe Joe"

"Buddy" …. nice Americanism, keep up the standard.

First of all … apart from being a customer of IINet (before it purchased AAPT I was there) I have found they have no compunction in slamming customers, great difficulty in guaranteeing internet speeds and offer nothing for customers on no contract mobile phones (2).

So "Joey Joe Joe" if you are IINet's spokesperson here why don't you address those problems.

Instead of making the mistake of thinking that I am looking at dumping IINet because of their "negotiations" with NBN (that puts their customers as the meat in the sandwich … not a good look for any company that professe to look after its customers).

Next time "Joey Joe Joe" read the full "Comment" and don't just cherry pick you own bias.

And tell everyone what your position is vis a vis IINet …. instead of hiding.

Dude.
TwoihJanuary 18, 2014 at 3:45 pm

@Kerri – Turnbull, no doubt thinks that Tony’s “Copper is the new Fibre” future is bollocks, but that is the price he pays as a party politician. I am sure Tony has asked “Tell me about the megabbitts again” but any reply would have flown way over Tony as any connection between two points needs asphalt and can be cycled on.
Joey Joe JoeJanuary 18, 2014 at 9:55 pm

@John Fraser –

Ok – I’m sorry Fraser – Let’s take another look at your “Full Comment”

“Having IINet as my ISP I was disappointed to read their criticism of the NBN and their unwillingness to sign up.
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/iinet-refuses-sign-appalling-nbn/2142550/

All they have done is hastened my decision to (No contract) bundle with Optus. I very much doubt that I will ever go back to Telstra. As for Abbott he can take a running jump of a short plank.”

Sorry – I must have missed the bit in that comment that says ” I do not like iiNet because of their customer service and inability to guarantee speeds – and I dont like their lack of mobile options too”. I guess iiNet’s Award Winning Customer Service doesn’t meet your standards. Good luck with Optus “guaranteeing speeds” on the exact same copper line that is running to your house iiNet was using and having “better” customer service.

As for – “How would iiNet be responsible for a customer who DOESN’T have the NBN ?” Where the hell did that come from? What has that got to do with anything we were talking about?

What you originally said was “I’m disappointed they didnt sign up to the NBN.” I said “That is rather inaccurate – They just didnt sign the Wholesale Broadband Agreement v2 – (mainly in relation to new NBN connections) – what little there is to read in your link seems to miss significant points”… they are still negotiating. iiNet currently has more NBN subscribers than any other ISP.
(http://www.itnews.com.au/News/369727,iinet-internode-steer-clear-of-nbn-agreement.aspx)

And then you accuse me of being bias and cherry picking information from your comment and then attack my character.

………dam dude, this is NOT worth continuing.
jasonblogalogadoodahJanuary 18, 2014 at 11:50 pm

Basically the privatisation of Telstra was a complete botch job. The Howard government, following direction from its masters at the IPA, pursued an ideological path rather than a moderate route that took into consideration the Australian experience.

One of the first things to go from the revamping of Telstra was the technology development group, which had previously delivered the world first innovation of message-bank. Similarly, instead of maintaining investment in infrastructure and innovation by retaining public ownership of the exchanges and copper network and reinvesting into new technology, the Howard government effectively threw the baby out with the bath-water. What had been built up by the efforts of generations of Australians starting with the inception of the PMG was effectively squandered.

Telecom Australia had been a profitable public utility that paid handsome dividends to the government and led the world in telecommunication innovation. It was a monopoly but a necessary beast given the tyranny of distance that characterises the Australian reality. Telstra is now a privatised entity and where 20 years ago Australians had a telco ranked in the world’s top 5 the modern day Telstra barely makes it into the top 30.

Basically the entire hand-relief that is the NBN overlooks the necessary indictment of how incompetent the Howard government was. Australia should have had a proper NBN as part of the ongoing renewal of public works and public investment in infrastructure that ultimately supports and encourages small businesses, entrepreneurship, innovation, & the simple and decent betterment of society as a whole. The rank greed and stupidity of Neoliberalism won the day in how Telstra was privatised and future generations of Australians will pay the price.
John FraserJanuary 19, 2014 at 12:03 am

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@"Joey Joe Joe"

"All they have done is hastened my decision " ….. how did you miss that ?

Such a moron.

Learn to read.

Suggest you get your IINet contract and ask your IINet supervisor to explain it to you.

Just so everyone can have a closer look at IINet :

Perhaps "Joey Joe Joe' will turn up there with IINet against his name.
HaderakJanuary 19, 2014 at 11:01 am

@revolutionarycitizen – you have a couple of dodgy conclusions here, specifically:

“…It is a matter of money, it is perfectly acceptable to want everyone to have a FTTH connection but exactly who is going to pay for it? …”

and

“…Also, speed is a false argument for business, business has had access to fibre networks in Australia for decades, it isn’t cheap but it is there. So the notion that we’re lagging behind because of our poor infrastructure is a nonsense….”

The first one first, being the notion that FTTH (hereafter “the NBN”) is more expensive than the patchwork Coalition alternative (for brevity and chuckles I’m going to call this one “Fraudband”).

Fraudband is only cheaper than NBN in the same way as a used car is cheaper than a new car. Sticker price only. But if you get the used car you know you’re signing up for less performance, higher maintenance and sooner replacement. Unfortunately our need for Internet speed increases by 50% or so every year, and Fraudband has a very definite performance cap, which means it requires replacement much sooner (estimates vary of course, but based on my read of Nielsen’s Law my assumption is that Australia will be clamouring for these speeds to drive their online products in the very early 2020s).

I consider ubiquitous 1Gig connection speeds as the goal of Australia’s communications network (and it’s an arbitrary one, but it’s a reasonable long-term mark), and we have two proposed paths to get there.

One of them proposes laying infrastructure that (once dug in) can be progressively upgraded up to and beyond the mark without the need for further digging – you can squeeze more speed out of a fibre network by upgrading the electronics at either end of the fibre.

The other proposes the same thing, but prior to laying that fibre infrastructure it also proposes laying multiple different and competing forms of infrastructure with a much shorter useful lifespan. It also glosses over the upgrade costs from the multi-mode plan to the long-term plan. But it acknowledges that the fibre is the inevitable goal for the majority of the network (which is why it’s all they’re laying in greenfields developments).

Today, Fraudband is cheaper. In two political terms time, Fraudband will be demonstrably more expensive.

On to the second point, the idea that speed is a false argument for business – and I suspect your real argument here is that adding speed to the network will do little to add innovation to Australia’s business agendas, and to the Australian economy.

I also believe this one to be false. Your claim is that businesses already have access to fibre speeds (true), and therefore they already possess the ingredients for innovation.

Here’s my problem: the current crop of Internet innovations tend to share one assumption: the idea that only one end of the connection between client and server needs a fast connection. We therefore see a profusion of download-centric services, where most of the information flows one-way (in the direction of the customer). For that, the business needs a high-speed connection and the customer can manage with a low-speed one.

The next crop of Internet innovations will require two-way high-speed connections. Upload will be just as vital as download. And reliable upload will be key – it won’t be enough to rely on an “up to 20Mbps” connection that actually delivers somewhere between 1Mbps and 4Mbps on weekday afternoons.

For these innovations to develop you need three ingredients:
1) An idea – the cheap and easy part
2) Fast connections for the developer – available now at varying cost via the kind of fibre product Revolutionarycitizen describes above
3) Fast connections to the CUSTOMER – this is the missing link that NBN can provide, and Fraudband can’t.

In order to make the leap from garage developer to flourishing business, a developer needs to be able to reach a domestic audience. It depends on the product of course, but for most it’s critical to be able to match online product with boots-on-the-ground marketing and testing in a local area.

That’s just not possible in Australia, because you can’t predict what your client’s connection speed is. Even your client can’t predict that, because we have a network that delivers unreliable results. Because for some reason it’s permissible to sell broadband services with an ‘up to’ tag instead of a ‘minimum of’ tag, as would be expected of any other kind of product.

And if you can’t guarantee access to a domestic marketplace then SMEs and startups can’t afford the risk of R&D. Or if they can, they are at a significant disadvantage against the foreign competition who DO have access to a domestic high-speed network to trial their ideas.

So, if we want Australia to have a shot at being the home base of the next big internet icons, you need to provide the infrastructure first. And it needs to be streets ahead of the market average. And, for God’s sake, we’ve already got a plan in place and being rolled out that will be cheaper in the long term than the proposed money-saving alternative.
diannaartJanuary 19, 2014 at 12:16 pm

If Australia is “open for business” as Abbott proclaimed – why the stone-age attitude to communications?
Joey Joe JoeJanuary 19, 2014 at 3:58 pm

@ Fraser –

Oh I see:

In my original post – pointing out that this statement: “Having IINet as my ISP I was disappointed to read their criticism of the NBN and their unwillingness to sign up” was inaccurate and the article you linked lacked certain information (which you still haven’t rebuffed)…

I should have also recognized that this:

“[As a result] All they have done is hastened my decision [to change providers]”
is equal too…

” I do not like iiNet because of their customer service and inability to guarantee speeds – and I dont like their lack of mobile options too”.

Not that your dissatisfaction with iiNet was part of my original point – nor does it make your original statement any more correct.

So in saying “learn to read” you are actually saying “learn to read between the lines and make up crap”. Duly Noted – I will consider it “buddy”.

This is actually pretty funny – there is a bit of irony in me telling you there are points missing in the original post/ shortfalls in the linked article; where in fact you are trying to reason that as “I missed certain (irrelevant) points” myself in your post due to your opinion not exactly being fleshed out.

Now maybe re-read my original post with out exaggerating the apparent “Americanism” and therefore without pretending I am attacking you (which was not my intentions – so I do appologise if it came out that way: tone is always ambiguous in text).

Also recognize that I was not responding to your ‘opinion’ of iinet (well partially). This is what I was responding to: “[iinet’s] criticism of the NBN and their unwillingness to sign up.” They criticized NBN CO, not the NBN, and did not sign up to the current version of the WBA (yet) due to points they feel are significant – they are still negotiating.
John FraserJanuary 19, 2014 at 4:42 pm

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IINet handing out a media report (which the article was … no need to "rebuff: that) for consumption (most likely for the Liberal party) and using customers as the meat between the sandwich is never a good look for any Corporation.

Score 1 for my decision to dump IINet ….. I want the NBN and any Corporation that gives succor to Abbotts gang loses my business.

Having spoken to quite a few contractors and workers involved in laying the fibre optics for NBN Co. (in 3 States and 1 Territory) I think I have a pretty good handle on what difficulties NBN Co has encountered with Telstra pits and channels.

Score 1 for "missed certain (irrelevant" points)" ……. but you would have absolutely no inkling of that (hey dude ?)

Still no sign of your relationship to IINet ….. score a laugh.

IINet can negotiate all they like …. with 1 less customer.

I have been offered a much better deal with Optus.

IINet cannot/ does not want to match.

See ?
John FraserJanuary 19, 2014 at 4:43 pm

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And check out IINet here :
John FraserJanuary 19, 2014 at 5:49 pm

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Its clear you are trying to sell IINet as something that it was.

Good customer service, good deals.

But sadly you should go and ask your parents how their IINet deal stacks up against Optus.

My "opinion" is there because I went to both Optus and IINet and looked at what both had to offer.

Having only had 3 ISPs in 15 years I do not change without good reason

Having only had 4 "deals" with different phone providers in 4 decades I do not change providers lightly.

IINet has not kept up.

And having used Whirlpool for about 10 years I think it is doing a service to let people know it is there.

Perhaps you think not.

News Flash …. this "dude" has been following politics and supporting the NBN since it was first proposed.

Take that back to IINet and bank it.
Joey Joe JoeJanuary 19, 2014 at 5:32 pm

there is a whrilpool forum for everything dude – your link means nothing to me:

My relationship with iiNet? A customer of 6 years-ish. I have had connection issues/ speed issues particularly at 1 residence…. due to waiting on Telstra techs to do their jobs at their end, the distance I was from the exchange (> 4kms) and the state of the copper lines.

“iiNet handing out a media report” – OK… well what did that report say, what did that article say and how did you interpret that article? Each of which you would find convey 3 different messages – all to do with missed information and the choice of wording. that is what you have to rebuff.

“…using customers as the meat between the sandwich…” How exactly are they doing this?(with consideration to still negotiating the WBA (while not signing v2), they are STRONG advocates of the FULL FTTP (unlike Telstra/ Optus) and the fact they currently have the large majority of NBN customers.)

“Score 1 for my decision to dump IINet ….. I want the NBN and any Corporation that gives succor to Abbotts gang loses my business.”
News Flash – the current NBN Co is Abbott’s/ Turnbulls gang – they are the ones who are proposing MTM over FTTP:

Yet iiNet, for the moment, rejecting this particular agreement is them inadvertently assisting the Abbott Government?

It is clear that anything I say, though fact, your judgement is still clouded by your opinion of iiNet.
Joey Joe JoeJanuary 19, 2014 at 8:23 pm

@Fraser – You’ve ignored a lot of what I have been saying… no sense in continuing this if you still do not realise you’ve gone off on a tangent to my original point.
John FraserJanuary 19, 2014 at 9:50 pm

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@"Joey Joe Joe"

Your "point" was moot.

Unsuccessfully trying to defend IINet.

Feel free to let everyone know you association with IINet.
doctorrob54January 19, 2014 at 11:42 pm

Australia has proven to many times now what we are,and that is talk,talk,talk.Lead the world in nothing and continue to follow always selecting the wrong way.
Even when a great Aussie brain comes up with a great discovery or new innovation,regardless in what field,scientific,engineering,,civil or social.We refuse to invest or back our own.
Scared,racist,lying wankers is what we are lead by and what as a nation we have become.I appreciate not
all of us are like that or want it,but there are to many that are and we are out numbered.
joey joe joeJanuary 19, 2014 at 11:53 pm

Man your thick Frazer.
John FraserJanuary 20, 2014 at 2:10 am

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@"joey joe joe" & "Joey Joe Joe"

Thanks for that.

When you learn to spell your own pseudonym the same way come back.

lol
John FraserJanuary 20, 2014 at 9:06 am

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No one disputes that the NBN is costly.

To offset costs IINet needs to grow its customer base, and that is why it has been buying up smaller ISPs.

Optus and Telstra are the 2 biggest ISPs in Australia.

If IINEt thinks that a media release criticising NBN Co ( in what appears to be more a sop to the current government than anything to do with its negotiations).

After all 27 companies, including Optus and Telstra. had no problems signing up.

Perhaps IINet has not managed to get a big enough customer base (in spite of some very costly purchases) to be able to offer its customers competitive rates.

Perhaps IINet is running into liquidity problems and needs to divert attention.

Perhaps IINet is just having problems with NBN Co's new (Turnbull) management.

But they would be wise not to use their customer base as a bargaining chip in the media.
John FraserJanuary 20, 2014 at 12:37 pm

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If IINet already has NBN customers and IINEt are yet to sign up to NBN Co then perhaps current IINet customers are subsidising those IINet NBN customers.

And if IINet's concerns relating to their media release are legitimate then wouldn't those concerns be relevant already ….. as they are already providing NBN Co's services.

So much left unsaid when IINet starts publicly using their customers, for what, to all intents and purposes, appears to be a media release to, possibly, satisfy Turnbull.
Joey joe JoeyJanuary 20, 2014 at 3:14 pm

“When you learn to spell your own pseudonym the same way come back.”
Now you’re just playing with my emotions with that hurtful hurtful comment.

“If IINet already has NBN customers and IINEt are yet to sign up to NBN Co then perhaps current IINet customers are subsidising those IINet NBN customers.”
Or… they’re on the same interim agreement everyone was previously on.

“If this – if that”. “… IF…” Geez dude – you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing now.
John FraserJanuary 20, 2014 at 4:26 pm

<

@JoeyjoeJEEYY"

And here was I thinking that you had a basic understanding of the media release that IINet put out.

Looks like you are treating your customers as the meat in the sandwich.

Pity IINet cannot offer even the same "no contract" deal the Optus has offered.

Optus and Telstra don't have "interim" agreements for those with NBN fibre cable.

Keep the straw "arguments" coming.

This has to be bad for IINet.
John FraserJanuary 20, 2014 at 4:29 pm

<

@"Joey joeeeeey Joe"

Are you exceptionally thin skinned ?

Not much good if you're thinking of a political career when IINet dumps you.

Notice I spell my name Fraser not "Frazer" ……. your thick.
Paul Raymond ScahillJanuary 20, 2014 at 4:23 pm

Good old Tony, the only person (?) in the world who thinks Australia is up with the rest of the world when we are actually in the 20th century. If Howard thinks it is okay to be behind the eight ball then this nong also thmks it is okay. So much for the infrastructure P.M.pf the 21st century. The (man) is a joke.
Joey joe JoeyJanuary 20, 2014 at 9:01 pm

Its getting quite pathetic now Fraser.
revolutionarycitizenJanuary 20, 2014 at 9:02 pm

@Haderak

As a matter of cost, yes the abridged version of the NBN is going to be cheaper, not only because it will be less advanced but also because it will be finished. The arrangements that were in place for funding the NBN roll-out would have came up some $30,000,000,000 over the legislated funding maximum. So, without changing the plan either the legislation would have to be changed to allow the government to borrow another $30,000,000,000 (unlikely) or offer equity to the private market for completion. (and considering the NBN will never turn a profit, that is also unlikely)

As for speed, companies that require speed can get it, that has always been the case. Yes, the consumer end of the market does require fixing but it may have to be a case of one step at a time. The idea of just creating a FTTH network may be a good idea, but a good idea that simply requires a far greater investment than at this time is possible. And even if the NBN was built as theorised there is no guarantee things would have changed a great deal, we’re still as unlikely to see massive investment in-flow into software development firms, simply because there are other factors that prevent that kind of investment here.

It should have been the government’s focus to get hard-ware manufacturers to set up shop here first.
Kaye LeeJanuary 20, 2014 at 9:37 pm

revolutionary citizen, I don’t think you quite understand.

Firstly, there is no “legislation” about the cost of the NBN. I have no idea what you are talking about with that. Estimates of cost do not equate to “legislation” so that point is just silly.

Secondly, there is no way that the Coalition’s Fraudband will meet the deadlines they originally set. They have a lot of work to do in planning, new contracts, and council approvals. I am not sure where you get your information from but I assume you realise that the money invested was a loan that was predicted to bring a 7% return though I concede that may have been optimistic. Even with no direct financial return on the investment, the productivity and social benefits will bring a huge return.

Thirdly, your assertion that it will be cheaper is incorrect. To have to bring all the equipment and people back to dig up the ground for every individual connection will cost WAY more than doing it all while they are there with the equipment and manpower, and the maintenance required for the copper network and replacement batteries for the nodes, as well as back up power, makes the “cheap” version definitely not cost effective and gives no thought to the future. It’s like buying a second hand sports car when your wife is pregnant with triplets.

This is yet another example of the short-term thinking of this government.
John FraserJanuary 20, 2014 at 10:15 pm

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@"Joey Joe Joe"

Sorry dude.

Hey buddy what's the matter ?

Did you suddenly find out that IINet has been buying up smaller ISPs so that they could stay in the game.

Fancy telling IINet NBN customers that they only have an "interim" contract …. does that mean that in the interim they are paying more or in the interim they are paying less and will soon pay more.

I think it best if I go over to Whirlpool and post your enlightening "Comment".

Lets see what IINet's Steve Dalby has to say.
Joey joe JoeyJanuary 20, 2014 at 11:38 pm

Lol – link me bud. I wanna see them laugh at you
John FraserJanuary 21, 2014 at 12:26 am

<

What pseudonym will I use for you ?

"Joey joe Joey", "joey joe joe" or "Joey Joe Joe".

After all it is you who was looking for "accuracy".

Although you do appear not to have many answers …. when it comes to "interim contracts".

I have been laughing at you for 2 days now.

Thinking you should hand out media releases for IINet.

@"JJJ" ….. are you aware that Telstra and only Telstra does new connections ….. it has been my misfortune, as a developer, to have to deal with Telstra when building new developments and Telstra missing those CSGs is absolutely small change ($510,000) and unfortunate for those customers ….. because they did not see 1 cent of that fine but they were the ones inconvenienced and the ones who laid the complaint.

And "JJJ" if you were half as smart as you apparently think you are, you would look at some of the previous fines Telstra has attracted.

For instance this $18.5 million fine in 2010 : http://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/18-million-penalty-imposed-on-telstra

Did you ever stop to think …. just for a moment in the last 2 days ……. why Optus and Telstra plus 25 other companies have signed up with NBN Co but IINet has to give out a media release saying that they don't want to be responsible for NBN Co's actions.

Be a pleasant change, buddy, if you decided to use the little grey cells dude.

Instead of trying desperately trying to be "cool".
Joey joe JoeyJanuary 21, 2014 at 1:06 am

” I have been laughing at you for 2 days now.”

Lol I know – snarry geeky cheecky little 12-yr-old type giggle I bet everytime you make fun on my pseudonym. It is kinda sad seeing as I didn’t even say anything in my last few posts that suggested I had any intention of contiuing this yet you’re still blabbering on , whether you’re right or not, like a raving lunatic arguing sh1t irrelevant to why I posted in the first place.

Just give up dude.

There nothing you need to say here – move on.

Unless you do start that whirlpool thread (I’d imagine titled -” this joey joe joe guy, what a loser”) – in which case link me buddy!
diannaartJanuary 21, 2014 at 8:53 am

John

Did you suddenly find out that IINet has been buying up smaller ISPs so that they could stay in the game.

I have had access to internet since 1996 – my preference has been for smaller more flexible ISP’s – I do not like being tied into contracts. Each one has been taken over by larger ISP’s offering much less for more cost. IInet took over my ISP a couple of years ago – now they did honour my existing service, but, again their apparently extensive range of ‘packages’ do not offer the same flexibility I used to have.

Small, independent and competitive ISP’s are being squeezed out – such is capitalism.
John FraserJanuary 21, 2014 at 11:32 am

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@"Joey joe Joey"

Now , now "joey joe joe" don't get to upset because I wasn't so much making fun of your pseudonyms as making fun of the fact that you appear to have a couple of accounts here and get a little mixed up with which one you are using.

" It is kinda sad seeing as I didn’t even say anything in my last few posts that suggested I had any intention of contiuing this yet you’re still blabbering on"

But here you are …. for the "interim".

Answer some of the questions put to you previously.
John FraserJanuary 21, 2014 at 11:57 am

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@diannaart

Due to business/ personal I have had to go with the major companies for the service and reliability, but I have always looked for the best deal, that way costs can be kept down.

Lots of friends are with the smaller ISPs and are very happy with them.

Vodaphone had a lot of problems recently and the former CEO (now at NBN Co) worked hard to get it back to its former glory, including signing up with Optus to build towers (which are prohibitively expensive) in areas where Telstra hold a monopoly (Sunshine Coast and Hinterland is one such area) and Vodaphone offers very good deals for mobiles (but not much good if you cannot get a signal).

I will not sign up to a contract because I know that I have a long history of phone line usage and if banks will give me a loan any time I ask for it then it should be good enough for phone companies to offer similar services.

I understand that phone companies like to have contracts so that they can budget over long periods but they should also take into account customers that do not have a contract but that their history shows that they are long term customers.

Take note I am not recommending any mobile phone company only using the above company as an example of costs and offers, many others offer similar or better services and deals.
Joey joe JoeyJanuary 21, 2014 at 4:00 pm

Multiple accounts? I haven’t exactly signed up here buddy. Different computers/ my phone – all commenting as a guest.

I donteven don’t know why you’re even speculating on who I am – I told you what my relationship is with iinet, to a more detailed extent to what you need aswell, yet you’ve ignored it and continue to make delusional accusations at me. I stopped arguing whenyour comments became 70% opinion, 20% baseless insults and 10% baseless/inaccurate arguments.

I did say get over all this bud and move on – but I think it’s your ego you need to get over.
John FraserJanuary 21, 2014 at 4:24 pm

<

@"Joey joe Joey"

" It is kinda sad seeing as I didn’t even say anything in my last few posts that suggested I had any intention of contiuing this yet you’re still blabbering on"

&

" I stopped arguing whenyour comments became 70% opinion, 20% baseless insults and 10% baseless/inaccurate arguments."

Ha ha ha.

And yet Optus is still offering more than IINet.
John FraserJanuary 21, 2014 at 4:50 pm

<

Well "Joey joe Joey" what has been learnt from your defence of IINet and their media release.

IINet, as opposed to 27 other companies, including Telstra the biggest in Australia, is having trouble closing a deal with NBN Co.

IINet, unlike the other 27 companies, believes it will be responsible for any shortfalls the NBN rollout may incur.

IINet, unlike the other 27 companies, believes it will be responsible for CSG guarantees even though :

"Up to this point, NBN Co will install:

fibre to the home
the Premises Connection Device (PCD). This is where the fibre first arrives at your house. It's a box attached to the outside of your house.
the Network Termination Device (NTD, sometimes also referred to as an NTU), where the NBN fibre network terminates. This box is usually located inside your house and has 4 data ports and 2 voice ports. NBN Co also installs the Power Supply Unit (PSU), which provides backup power in the case of power failure."

Can't spell it out much plainer than that.

So "Joey joe Joey" where is your "10% baseless/inaccurate arguments." ?

Hope you have another go.
Joey Joe JoeJanuary 21, 2014 at 10:19 pm

WTF dude? they “BELIEVE” they would be responsible? Just answered your own question.

Should have also accounted for irrelevant information with the percentages 25% spontaneous pointless drivel.

So you’ve said what they install (for some reason – I didn’t realise the specifics on each technology was up for debate)… but what happens to the telco, say Optus for example, when NBN Co as the wholesaler does not meet their CSG requirements? Optus cops the fine and possible TIO charges.

Now compare that to another scenario – You’re with Optus, where Telstra is the wholesale provider – if Telstra fails to meet CSG they foot the bill.

These are not arguments – these are not my opinion – these are facts. But arguing with you is like arguing with a Coalition politician; play ignorant, skew the fact… insult everyone.
John FraserJanuary 21, 2014 at 11:42 pm

<

"Joey joe Joey"

You really don't have a clue about how to run a business, do you.

NBN Co supplies the line and all equipment to the house.

Got that ?

A telco signs you up eg Telstra.

Read on : https://telstra.com.au/bigpond-internet/download/document/telstra-guide-to-fibre-connection-210212.pdf

Your example "You’re with Optus, where Telstra is the wholesale provider – if Telstra fails to meet CSG they foot the bill." is so moronic when you tied it into the IINet media release, I see that you just don't understand how to get a phone connected, either an existing connection or a new connection.

Once again …. Telstra is the only Telco who can put in a new copper line … either a brand new house like I have built or a house that has never had a phone connection …. that is called a monopoly, something that Telstra has had forever, because they have always owned everything within the Australian phone system.

Therefore if NBN Co owns the fibre, the pits (remember they purchased them for $11 billion from memory) the PCD, the NTD, the PSU and they or their contractors install them, once again they, just like Telstra have a monopoly, and it is up to NBN Co to meet CSG …… wait for it ….. not IINet.

But if you want to be one of the sheeple and accept that IINet , just out of the blue, for no discernable reason, decided to hand out a media release critical of the company they they are in discussions with then you really do deserve to be stuck where you are.

Hang in there though, who knows, a breakthrough might be just around the corner.

But unlike IINet I don't think NBN Co will be giving away anything.
Joey joey joe joe jacobson jnrJanuary 22, 2014 at 8:26 pm

Im not gonna try bud.

I dont know how we got to this point – but lets agree to disagree hey?
BacchusJanuary 22, 2014 at 9:33 pm

“but lets agree to disagree hey?”

Or at least get a room 😉
Joey Joe JoeJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:47 pm

@bacchus – lol I was gonna stop a while ago but I figured this was our room now
John FraserJanuary 22, 2014 at 11:52 pm

<

Looks like you and all your alter egos might finally be learning something.

Hope you go into electronics when you grow up.

I might even hire you.
John FraserJanuary 23, 2014 at 6:53 am

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@Joey Joe Joe

Once again you have shown everybody that you are just a massive arsehole with absolutely no intelligence.

dude ….. still laughing …. at you.
John FraserJanuary 23, 2014 at 9:06 am

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@Joey Joe Joe

Still no understanding about the IINet media release.

Such a little mind all you can do is steal someone else's identity.
joeJanuary 23, 2014 at 2:09 pm

What ever buddy
John FraserJanuary 23, 2014 at 3:11 pm

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@"joe"

An identity thief as well as stupid.

Troll.
joeJanuary 23, 2014 at 3:30 pm

Haha … considering how much you’ve been getting worked up and what you choose to pick on… you’re lucky I’m not a troll buddy.
John FraserJanuary 23, 2014 at 4:43 pm

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@"Joey Joe Joe"

Your really are sad piece of work.

Go ahead do your worst.

Lets see how far you get.

Jail ?
joeJanuary 23, 2014 at 6:02 pm

Evidently