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Day to Day Politics: The three lying fools.

Sunday 7 May 2017

1 There they sat. The three of them. A likeness for lying fusing them together like kindred spirits in a society of conservative fools. One the President of the United States with little knowledge of the things that consent to the moral and lawful functioning of a society other than the individuals pursuit of wealth.

The one in the middle a media slut who has made his wealth from titillation and fake news. In Australia it is difficult to win office without his support. And the other, a subservient intellect of them both. A man prepared to forgo his principles and his country’s well-being for the sake of power.

These and others like them are what we define as leaders. Donald Trump likes to describe himself as a big history fan. Well that’s what he told Time magazine.

Jack Holms writing in Esquire Magazine:

”President Trump’s American history credentials have rarely been questioned, except by anyone who knows even a modicum of history. So it was surprising on Monday when the president flubbed his take on the Civil War: the whole thing could have been avoided; President Andrew Jackson was upset by the war even though he died 16 years before it began; and why didn’t anyone stop it, anyway? The incident prompted The New York Times to re-examine the president’s past issues with history, including when he thought Frederick Douglass was still alive, and the time he bought a “fixer-upper” golf course that was once home to a Civil War battle site. Sort of.”

What I’m getting at here is quality of leadership. If you read the full article it will occur to you that Trump cannot even get his history right. In fact he gets things wrong on a regular basis.

On Turnbull’s trip to the US, ostensibly to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the Coral Seal battle, the Australian Prime minister went out of his way to embarrassingly, with a now permanent smile fall over the ‘’we are family, Donald”.

The Prime Minister’s behaviour could only be described as cringe worthy. His perpetual grin had him looking like if Trump were to ask him to bow, he would have. Imagine Paul Keating in his place. I don’t know about you, but as an Australian I felt a little put off by his demeanour.

Then, showing not an iota of compassion or strength of character, to disagree with the maniacal patriarch he congratulated the President on his win in the Congress on the repeal of ”Obamacare.” What a disgrace.

”I got to say, it’s always satisfying to win a vote when people predict you’re not going to win it too. So keep at it, it’s great.”

He had to know that in saying this that the vote would mean the loss of insurance to around 25 million of America’s lowest paid workers. All it was, was a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

”Labor’s shadow minister for health and Medicare Catherine King said the prime minister was praising a bill that will could lead to thousands of Americans losing their healthcare and “will take away the requirement for health insurers to cover people with ‘pre-existing conditions’ – such as diabetes, autism or cancer.”

At the meet and greet, the foot in mouth President who doesn’t even know his country’s history told Prime Minister Turnbull “you have better health care than we do.”

”We have a failing healthcare.”

Bernie Sanders couldn’t believe his luck:

Well Mr President, you’re right, in Australia and every other major country on Earth they guarantee health care to all people. They don’t throw 24 million people off health insurance. So maybe when we get to the Senate we should start off with looking at the Australian health care system.”

“Thank you Mr Trump for admitting that universal health care is the better way to go,” Mr Sanders later tweeted.

The Trump and Turnbull comments were repeatedly played on US cable TV news networks and is doing the rounds on social media in Australia. Dare I say it but I predict some fake news from Fox news. What contradictory fools they have made of themselves.

All of which goes to show just how little intelligence our leaders have. And to think that one has his finger on the nuclear button.

On this day in 2016 I wrote:

An observation.

”Telling the truth should not be delayed simply because we are not sure how people might react to it.”

The Prime Minister and the Treasurer over the past few days have been attacking Labor alleging that it is practicing class warfare and the politics of envy. Morrison says that voters were “over the us and them” approach to governing. He is correct but who is really waging this so-called war? I don’t see the middle and lower classes up in arms over their treatment. But I do see the wealthy and the super-rich getting cranky every time there is a threat to their privilege. Or at the suggestion that they should contribute more to the public coffers.

In fact never in the history of this nation have the rich and the privileged been so openly brazen about their economic self-righteousness.

An observation.

”This Governments performance over its time in office has been like a daily shower of offensiveness raining down on society.”

Former Treasurer Joe Hockey said people trying to afford a good home should get a good job. In an interview with Melbourne Radio Host Jon Faine in which the PM suggested he (Faine) should be helping his kids with the cost of a house. He seemed to be indicating that all you needed was rich parents.

Bill Shorten retorted in Parliament saying:

Is that really the Prime Minister’s advice for young Australians struggling to buy their first home? Have rich parents.”

Turnbull had purchased a $2.7 million penthouse, with knockout views of the harbor and city skyline, in 2008 for his then aged 23 daughter, Daisy Turnbull Brown.

My thought for the day.

”Life is about doing things. Not having things.”

PS: Antony Green says the next federal election probably September-October 2018.

 

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126 comments

  1. Pappinbarra Fox

    I agree: lashings of obsequious grovelling were the proststute’s order for the day. That it is truely sickening is my real response but if you don’t like that response I have alternatives. Consider this- you are thinking as though mal is talking to a rational man. But maybe mal like most thinks trump is paranoid delusional or to use the technical term goose shit crazy. And you don’t poke that species of nuclear trigger finger bear if you have any wits left.
    Just saying – to get the dialogue rolling along.

  2. JT

    Agreed but he could easily have grovelled without congratulating him on the health care travesty. Those words just needed need saying. The whole thing made me want to vomit

  3. 245179

    embarrassing to watch the grovel, but that’s our Trumbull. ( trumps even told him to sit in a corner for a few hours before they meet ) Our near neighbours ( NZ ), had the gonads to tell america to shove their nuclear ships out of NZ waters, would we……..ROFL

  4. Graeme Henchel

    ” A man prepared to forgo his principles and his country’s well-being for the sake of power.”

    We really need to relinquish the myth that Shallow Mal has “principles” at least in the sense of some set of fixed morals or ethical views that guide his judgement.

    At best his principles are of the Groucho Marx variety “These are my principles. If you don’t like them I have others.”

    The big question about Turnbull’s meeting with Trump is whether his nose is now brown or orange

  5. havanaliedown

    Readers may recall Turnbull’s clear shock that Trump had beaten Ms Clinton – another example of his inoperative political antennae. He gravely announced this to Australians, with the tone of “we’ll get through this crisis”. How nice to see his rictus grin, although President Trump was very gracious in his gentle reference to their “testy” phone call. Trump is, as usual, quite right that our unwanted illegal immigrants shouldn’t be fobbed off to the USA.

  6. wam

    Had a chuckle about our health care when the trumble-ites are racing towards the septic system.
    The real winners in trump idiocy are the insurance companies with not having to recognise previous illness.
    Question have you smoked cigarettes? No rebate for lung/vascular problems or cancers.
    Have you given birth No rebate for diabetes, thyroid or perineal problems. Mental health will be related to
    Have you played netball? No rebate for hip/knee problems
    Do you drink alcohol? Wow the possibilities if you admit to a drink (in SA 70+ licence has the added cost of a doctor’s visit: one of my mates told a doctor he had a wine with his meals every day. The doctor recorded that and he lost his licence till he proved he was not ‘alcohol dependent’ 3 months, a $1200 course and public transport angst later he was given his new licence. Note when asked the alcohol’ ‘occasional’ glass of wine at dinner is the truth.
    The Australian adverts, especially in sports, show which companies are flush with profit – colworths – insurance – banks – betting shops
    ps
    Spot with your thought today, Lord, fits perfectly with the cashless card concept of restricting any chance of having.

    pps loved kennedy’s words on obama I feel the same over gillard

  7. Henry Rodrigues

    This fool of a PM who claims to represent Australia, has nothing to offer, no morals, no principles, no balls, no foresight, no judgement, except for a nauseating cheesy smile which he carries on his mug perpetually, even as as bends over to be rogered by the two of most despicable pricks in the world. Does this gutless wannabee have any shame left in him ? Does he really enjoy shit being poured over him so publicly and constantly ??

  8. Frank Smith

    Dear Prime Minister,

    Is this sickening grovelling an Australian Value?

    Yours sincerely,
    An ashamed Aussie

  9. helvityni

    No wide smiles or patronizing arm waving during those long three hours, this is not a way to treat Australian PM : Rudd or Fraser, I can understand, but me ,Mal… Oh to remember how nice Obama was to Gillard…

    Lucy: calm down, it will all end well, dear…

    PS. Even I felt some pity creeping up…honestly 🙂

  10. jim

    Turnbull the the smiling git with Abbott the brainless git chasing his job what could go wrong?.
    http://www.alp.org.au/campaigns

  11. Kronomex

    I just realised something; look at the photo at the top of the page then look at the photo for “Trump misses an opportunity”. Notice anything? The Donald has moved his chair to be further away from Turnbull. Could it mean that he still doesn’t like our joke of a leader? Nah, I must be imagining things.

  12. helvityni

    Yes, Knonomex, it’s Mal who has to do the leaning, the bending towards Trump…he’s the top dog here.

  13. Shevill Mathers

    It is interesting that they only met (in public) for 30 minutes-quite different to the way the Japanese and Chinese leaders were entertained etc.Obviously, once they had glad handed each other and maybe taken a few smiling selfies, they had nothing of substance to discuss. I dread to think of the actual cost to the Australian taxpayer in total dollar terms, These are men who could take us to war again, and here I am thinking about North Korea.

  14. Henry Rodrigues

    For all his arse licking, this idiot didn’t even get to see the inside of the White house. Even Mahmood Abbas from the PLO got to share a chat and a sit down with a cup of tea and a tour of the White house. And still this idiot grins. Pathetic shameless idiot. Please someone take this fool and dump him somewhere none will ever see his face again. He’s disgusting.

  15. diannaart

    Since Brexit & Trump, I have mistrusted my “powers of divination”. However, I was not wrong about Turnbull’s obsequiousness, would he behave like a grinning lackey or a leader of a successful nation?

    Too easy, as John Lord’s article points out.

    Terry Eagleton: “We live in a society which on the one hand pressurizes us into the pursuit of instant gratification, and the other hand imposes on whole sectors of the population an endless deferment of fulfillment.”

  16. David1

    Where Turnbull goes, written, sound or visual I do not. My cup is already overflowing with contempt for the sickening fool.

  17. violetta

    David1 I agree with you. Not a good Prime minister. Was his “destiny” to be Prime minister?

  18. kerri

    When I saw Turnbull’s stupid grin, one word sprang to mind
    sycophant!

  19. David1

    Violetta I don’t believe his destiny has been fulfilled ‘yet’, As in a good mystery the likes of Agatha Christie wrote so brilliantly, we must await the final act, then destiny will have been played out. That chapter hasn’t been revealed yet, I sincerely believe when it is, he will not be the hero he so fervently believes is his destiny. Yuk what a pool of vomit he is.

  20. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    The meeting was successful for two reasons:

    1) Dumb Trump foolishly shot himself in his own foot by referring to our universal health care as being better than America’s, thus giving Sanders the opportunity to reinforce Americans’ need for a universal healthcare; and

    2) Dopey Turnbull revealed himself to be a complete fool and sycophant on the world stage, thus showing his supporters and the Coalition they are being led by a laughing stock. Not long now until the axe falls onto Turnbull.

    Then, Vi will get her wish and dear li’l Tony will be reinstalled as PM. But it will only be for one year until September/October 2018 (or perhaps even less with him on the throne again) until he and his bunch of LNP fools are annihilated at the next election by the Alternative Government.

    This time the Alternative Government won’t throw the election because of a queasiness of taking on the demands of good governance and forming The ALLiance with its allies in the Greens. The new Alternative Government will rectify all LNP wrongs, re-introduce progressiveness and re-establish democratic socialism.

    Only one year to wait until things get better again.

  21. 245179

    sorry JMS…..it will be a whole new face, ( not one of the 3…4 that get bandied around, ie…..muddison,bishdope,mutton, rabbot ) I’m expecting a seriously ravaged LNP, with many of their dimwits looking for new careers. Hopefully…..canberra will take note, we’re over their constant lies / spin / rorts, and what we hate even more is the grovelling, it’s not us.

  22. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    245179,

    why say sorry? I agree with what you write here.

  23. Mark Needham

    “we’re over their constant lies / spin / rorts”
    certainlt are,
    Mark Needham

  24. wam

    well said Jennifer but sadly the 3680 is us.
    ps
    The diludbransims ( I have noticed di flanked by a woman recently and such a concession would please you?) waffle like one nation ‘ineffective loonies’.

  25. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    wam,

    great to see you’re a convert to The ALLiance. Well done. [Not sure what you mean by ‘diludbransims’ but have never asked coz I suspected you were a cynic. We might need to drop that from now on so to avoid any confusion! ;)]

    As for women in secondary roles, you know me, I support women in primary positions of power, secondary positions of power and at every other point of the power network. But I’m willing to concede a few positions for good men like Di Natale.

    Go The ALLiance! With the Greens and Labor working together, it will be curtains for the LNP numbskulls.

  26. Mick Byron

    Jennifer
    It concerns me you consider this ” ALLiance!” as a possibility as I know most Labor members I know and also most Labor voting friends in the seat of Gilmore wouldn’t vote Labor in 2018 if that were the case as one bitten twice shy.I would be mailing my ALP membership card back the same day as a Labor-Greens deal was done.Labor will win in 2018 and do so decisively and win enough seats to govern independently

  27. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Mick,

    of course it’s a possibility. Labor has allowed itself to become dominated by the neoliberalist Right Wing, which differ hardly from neoliberalist Centre Right in the Liberal Party.

    The good news will be that more young people who are concerned about socio-economic, social justice, environmental, welfare and fair economic issues will be encouraged to look upon The ALLiance of the Greens and Labor more favourably.

    Many of all age groups are disgusted that Labor has abanadoned the poor on welfare, precious environmental hotspots like the Tarkine, the Great Barrier Reef, the Great Forest National Park in Victoria and so on.

  28. Mick Byron

    Jennifer
    Opinion polls say the opposite to what you are voicing.Labor increases its % in just about every poll published where the Greens stand dormant or in some cases go backward and now rate behind One Nation in opinion polls.The biggest problem to Labor getting the 0.7% swing in my seat is the vocal and growing One Nation.Add to that the strong LNP vote that comes from the large Naval base in Gilmore the fight will be hard but I believe Labor will prevail.The one thing that could keep the seat in LNP hands is Labor doing deals with the Greens s that would,given the unpopularity of the Greens here,present the seat to LNP again
    Just out of curiosity ” Labor has allowed itself to become dominated by the neoliberalist Right Wing, which differ hardly from neoliberalist Centre Right in the Liberal Party.” if that is what you assume, why would you want your Greens to align with Labor?

  29. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    I want the Greens’ to help pull Labor back to the Left. I want both to pull together to pull Australia back into Democratic Socialism.

    Labor won’t do that alone because it has become comfortable and complacent playing up to Big Biz and settling for lukewarm measures to appease conservative votes.

  30. Mick Byron

    Kaye Lee
    You are right, the base itself is but the surrounding towns from Nowra to Jervis bay and surrounds are where the bulk of Naval personnel live.Very few live on base

  31. alluring

    Jenniffer when are going to work ? Also look outside fresh air and you might be lucky to see our Tony riding his bike!

  32. Mick Byron

    Jennifer “I want the Greens’ to help pull Labor back to the Left” you may well do but the bulk of voters want a centre left party.They want a social democratic Labor party not a democratic socialist Labor party.I think the Greeens have enough issues of their own to worry about without having to be the unwanted moral guardians of Labor that you desire and Labor doesn’t want

  33. Kaye Lee

    I see. Beautiful part of the world.

  34. Mick Byron

    Kaye Lee
    Agree. One thing that has raised my concerns although it may be baseless is lately the site for what was to be Australias first Nuclear reactor {other than Lucas Heights medical reactor} has been recleared some fences replaced and some activity of hi vis workers on the site.

  35. Michael Taylor

    Now for some smashing trivia … the reason it is on the coast of NSW is because every state or territory is required to have a port.

  36. James Cook

    Mick, can you please explain the difference between a “social democratic” and a “democratic socialist” Labor party. I’m genuine here. I have no idea of the difference and I admit it’s down to my ignorance. Cheers mate.

  37. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Mick,

    the problem with settling for the lesser choice of social democratic circles leaves open the easy access for neoliberalism to stay in its cushy little position where the haves are happy and the have-nots stay angry.

    Existing have-nots know the frustration of unemployment, the deprivation of poverty on Newstart, the sadness and fear of loved natural landscapes being put under constant pressure by political parties’ obsequious kowtowing to Big Biz.

    I understand your eye on the polls and what you say many in your electorate appear to prefer. However, Labor must not settle for second best because that’s what’s got them into their predicament already.

    Labor needs brave leadership and brave followship, so to demand total reparation for the ailments inflicted by this reprehensible LNP regime – and to provide the brave new alternative, progressive and reformist policies Australians desperately need (even if some dumbos don’t know it).

  38. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Adam Bandt posted this comment on Twitter: “India’s gov says it’s cutting coal imports to zero this fin year. ZERO. So why spend $1b on Adani coal mine, PM?” citing this article:
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/indl-goods/svs/metals-mining/govt-plans-to-cut-coal-imports-for-power-psus-to-zero-in-fy18/articleshow/58442535.cms

    The Greens have been anti-Adani from Day 1. Labor has been pro-Adani despite its threat to the Great Barrier Reef and the obvious signs of a waning call for coal in India and China. Even now Shorten wavers over which side of the fence he wants to sit on and Palaszczuk is an embarrassment.

    It’s no excuse to say Labor is not in government and it’s all the LNP Government’s fault (even though they are a pack of jerks and don’t care about the devastation Adani promises). Labor must prove it is far better than the LNP fraudsters.

  39. Mick Byron

    James Cook
    A quick response as work beckons
    Social democracy is a political ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving collective bargaining arrangements, a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions

    Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, with democratic management of enterprises within a socialist economic system. The term “democratic socialism” is sometimes used synonymously with “socialism”; the adjective “democratic” is often added to distinguish it from the Marxist-Leninist brand of socialism, which is widely viewed as being non-democratic.

    Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, with democratic management of enterprises within a socialist economic system. … One is based on a Capitalist economic system, Social Democracy, and the other on a socialist system.

  40. diannaart

    Jennifer, well said.

    Labor may well, once again, win as the least-worst-choice in the next election, probably with not enough margin to counter any LNP tactics. Once again, Labor will have the choice of being LNP-lite or learning how to cooperate with left-wing groups.

    Completely agree about the disappointment Palaszczuk has proven to be. Surely she is aware that QLD employs more people in tourism than any mining gig?

  41. Helen Bates

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith Where do you get the idea that Labour and the Greens would work togeter as the Greens here in QLD are campaigning against Labour already.Obviously they won’t do any good here in QLD as nobody stopped to listen to them or take their papers-thank god!

  42. Matters Not

    Helen Bates here’s something to think about re future voting trends:

    The standout demographic characteristic of One Nation voters was their lack of education. The typical One Nation voter didn’t finish school, much less, as Marr put it, “set foot in a university”. … that the more education people received, the more progressive their politics became.

    At the 2016 election, the Liberal and National parties got 39.2 per cent of the vote overall, but less – 38.5 per cent – among those who held bachelor’s degrees, and less again – 36.1 per cent – among those with postgraduate qualifications. Interestingly, Labor did no better among the university educated than among the general population. The comparative figures were 32.5 per cent among the general population, 32.3 among bachelor’s degree holders and 31.7 among postgrads.

    The level of education received has a high correlation with voting intentions. Not only in Australia but across the world more generally.

    The big beneficiaries of the educated vote, however, were the Greens. Some 13.2 per cent of those with an undergraduate degree and 16.1 per cent of those with postgraduate qualifications voted for them. “The total Green vote was just under 10 per cent, so they’re getting about half as many again among the tertiary-educated,” McAllister says.

    Those figures include voters of all ages. When one refines the data further, to look at younger voters, the progressive skew is far more dramatic. McAllister’s numbers show that for those under 30 with bachelor’s degrees, just 22.6 per cent preferred the Coalition, compared with 28 per cent for the Greens and 39.8 per cent for Labor. More startling yet is the voting pattern of those in that age group with postgraduate degrees. In that cohort, the Greens were by far the preferred party. Almost 40 per cent of people – 39.8, to be precise – voted for them. Labor got 31.5 per cent and the Coalition parties a miserable 22.2.

    No doubt some of these people will change their votes as they get older and richer. Nonetheless, the trend is ominous for conservatives. No wonder the political right is concerned about the consequences of having an informed electorate, and that many yearn for a dumbed-down society

    Note:The big beneficiaries of the educated vote, however, were the Greens.

    With more and more people attaining higher and higher education the prospects of The Greens are on the up. Yes they lag in Queensland but again that can be traced back to the post war years when the Labor Government of the times shied away from raising the school leaving age. And when University funding was taken over by the Commonwealth, Queensland was caught out. Never to recover in the Higher Education stakes.

  43. paul walter

    I find Mick Byron’s comment, 9.10 appalling. I can’t for the life of me as a long-term Labor voter (but gradually heading Green since the nineteen nineties) figure that sort of eyes shut tight reasoning when Green theory follows leftist thinking so closely as to the protection of the common wealth, against enclosuring and capitalist exploitation for the benefit and power of the few, at the expense of the many.

    Maybe it is because I can’ t accept that Labor should be just a doormat for the exploiting classes, for a few miserable, imagined crumbs they might flick off their over burdened tables in our direction and still believe in collectivism to a degree, in the sense that communities are over ruled as to FTA’s and control from alien interests through them.

    I can’t deny the realities of the world the way Blairites can, it’s just self deception, as Blair himself found out over Iraq. You wonder where the ALP Left is these days? It now forms a large chunk of support within the Greens, to the extent that Blairite Greens like Di Natale also deny a “left” analysis of how the world’s affair order themselves for fear of offending hegemonic influences.

    What seems left within Labor is a troglodyte membership discouraged from and no longer able to recognise how the world operates, just sitting about in denial fear and ignorance, hoping reality and the truth go away, in return for a few of those crumbs I mentioned earlier.

    But it won’t, which is why your world is led to authoritarianism through consent manufacture including through jingoism and squander in the $trillions with confected wars against “other” bogies for their resources, promulgated by the likes of Murdoch.

    That is, while this world has de industrialised, de democratised, dumbed down and been turned into a half-toxic quarry with social infrastructure smashed and material infrastructures privatised, against the need for accountability that used to keep utilities and government honest, as with water and power resources and ensured fair distribution of wealth,
    once the Labor keystone.

    Of course thinking people want reconciliation and unity against toryism with the Greens and Labor!

    It used to be an axiom that “United we stand, divided we fall”.

    But it won’t come through denialism and lies. Trumpism is not a daydream, it is now a reality.

  44. paul walter

    Hmmm….

    I see its point, but realise that Labor MUST (re) connect with an electorate that is a still a very conventional one inconstituion and image.

    It must some how negotiate the problems involved with neoliberalist and capitalist financialised globalisation without attacking multiculturalism. It’s caution as to globalisation also involves reality, as we see with the most recent problem, the Adani mine and the misuse of 457 visas to disempower the Australian workforce for exploitation.

    The difference would be, that,contrary to the Hansonists, it is not using the structure of the electorate for overt racist blame purposes based of a false understanding of what problems this civilisation faces, but to actually engage the public with the trickery of globalisation as currently constituted including the playing off of foreign labor against local unemployed.

    It’s slightly “older” labor, but I’d see it as necessary to regain the narrative from Hanson and Dutton and their racialised McCarthyite hysteria.

    In a sense, it could find its parent in “old” Green thinking, which was more sceptical of the naivety of open borders thinking in a world of unreformed free market financialism.

    Of course it is slightly incongruous when compared with much of Blairite Labor neoliberalism. Hopefully it reflects a realisation of certain realities, but I’d doubt it, at least at the top.

  45. burniebobthe_b_

    As a Labor member and voter I agree 100% with what Mick Byren said and reckon paul walter you should hurry up and pay your Greens membership as they need numbers. Relos and other ALP members I know here in Tassie hold similar views to Mick.We have experienced Greens ‘experiment” and the voters turfed them.
    The good thing is we live in a democracyand if you don’t like Labor don’t vote for them but stop bleating if Turnbull returns

  46. paul walter

    You know it occurred to me, the split between Greenish laborites and conventional labor really goes back well over forty years, to the great Jack Mundy’s greenish BLF and his removal by rightist forces including the likes of Abe Saffron, employing the carpetbagger Norm Gallagher.

    Since then, the purge of a concept of a social role for workers and unions has been under constant attack by those who adopt a defensive outlook that says unions only need by concerned with narrow material conditions (deteriorating to false consciousness greed and bugger you jackism), void of any reference to a social and cultural participatory role for workers and a healthier and more conscious society.

  47. havanaliedown

    Interesting that Labor have reintroduced their White Australia Policy. Waaaaacist!!!!

  48. johnlord2013

    I take it Michael that the only Port in the ACT is in a bottle.

  49. paul walter

    Diannart, just saw your ad on the Drum, which obviously sees it as a vehicle for a false beat-up and malicious malicious kite-flying, but yes, it is fearfully bland, where were all the mediterraneans, Asians etc who make up a big chunk of the current workforce and often vote labor for obvious reasons?

    havana’s dishonest comment probably explains the response to the timidity of the ad, but I wont accept my reading of it above as in need of alteration… the add is targetted not racist in the sense that Dutton or the Hansonists are racist, but an attempt to get the public as to its apathy as to the true nature of “change” in a neo lib world.

  50. Freetasman

    paul walter I become aware of the ad by Albanese, comment, quote: “a shocker [that] should never have been produced, and it should never be shown”.
    “I have no idea [what the approval process was]. I know because of Channel Nine’s exclusive – clearly it was dropped to Channel Nine to be shown last night – I don’t know what the process is. I am a member of the ALP national executive, I assure you that I hadn’t seen it.”

    Definitively is not an ideology or behavior that the ALP support but obviously there is some idiot that have bypassed the approval of members of the ALP national executive and this have to be investigated.

  51. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Well argued, paul walter.

    Blind Freddy is not so blind as the rusted-on closed shop operators, who can’t see that they run the risk of cutting their noses off their own faces.

    It was that same bloody-minded, ignorant thinking that lost us ALL the election in 2016 and since then we’ve been crucified by the LNP demolition squad.

  52. Freetasman

    johnlord2013May 8, 2017 at 6:28 pm
    I take it Michael that the only Port in the ACT is in a bottle.

    John, correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that in 1909 Jervis Bay was surrendered by NSW to the Commonwealth as a sea port for the ACT.
    Have this changed?

  53. Freetasman

    Just on the news: Mark Latham has joined the Liberal Democrats

    “I support 80-90% of the Liberal Democrats’ platform, pretty good for someone with strong views formed over a long period of time,” Latham said on Facebook.

    IMHO he need professional help

  54. paul walter

    Thanks JMS.

    Freetasman, not quite sure of your point. You are sceptical of it because of its cautiousness or the position it puts forward?I hope you can elaborate.

    When are people gong to come out of denial as to neo liberalism and stop using “racism” to blunt questioning of market economics “globalisation” , which actually CREATES the conditions under which actual racism thrives.

  55. Matters Not

    No doubt that ads have different targets. And sometimes the ‘controversy’ generated is not only anticipated but intended – free publicity and all that. Certainly it’s the controversy that caused me to even see the ad via The Drum – because I don’t watch commercial television as a general rule.

    But there is always an element of risk including the affects and effects they have on their own rusted on political supporters and how it appeals to those on the margins. Generally it’s those on the fringes – the swinging voter – who are the targets of ads.

    Why I think that the ad can be criticised on any number of grounds (including race and age related) I don’t think any controversy will prove to be long lasting. But there was plenty of free publicity – including Shorten distancing himself.

  56. Freetasman

    paul walter what I am saying is that I do not believe that the ALP have a racist policy or ideology if that is what you are asking.
    I did not mentioned neoliberalism (which I am against it) of globalisation.
    My reference was only to the ad.
    Cheers

  57. burniebobthe_b_

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith
    “It was that same bloody-minded, ignorant thinking that lost us ALL the election in 2016”
    Please explain how
    It was people making choices and it will be exactly the same next time no arm twisting no bribes no force and if you lot choose to vote for a party that 90% of the voters don’t like then there is part of the answer, now your explanation please –
    and
    paul walter
    Abe Safron was a developer gangster tax avoider who backed Norm Gallager for his own self interest so how do you manage to politicise that?

  58. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    bb_b_,

    quite simple really.

    There was no dialogue between Labor and the Greens before the last election. Both were at fault to varying degrees maybe, but Labor lost no opportunity to remind the electorate that there would be NO alliances with the Greens.

    What do you reckon that says to the electorate? Division, negative competition, lesser opportunities, just the same old same old duopoly.

  59. paul walter

    Freetasman, I obviously don’t beleive the thing was racist except at a very subordinate and unconscious contingent level and understand that the response from the ABC is an attempt to deflect to faux racism to block consideration of neo liberalism, the scourge of our times.

    I did explain that the real problem was neoliberalism with its both ends against the middle politics, since (of course) the ad needs be seen in context, something the folk at Murdoch media would avoid like the plague.

    You obviously grasped that neolib globalisation is at the root of the racism problem and thus felt the need not to mention neoliberalism since I had already done so.

    If however, your comment re Albanese is about the ALP dodging its own responsibilities as alerting the public re neoliberalism, we would not be on the same page.

    The only fault in the ad was to not include examples of non-anglos in the workforce in the other wise correct ad.

  60. burniebobthe_b_

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    “quite simple really.

    There was no dialogue between Labor and the Greens before the last election.”

    And just why should there have been when they are two distinct parties with their own policies candidates answering to their individual memberships and party rules and constitutions etc

    “What do you reckon that says to the electorate? Division, negative competition, lesser opportunities, just the same old same old duopoly.”
    How do people see “division” when they are different parties? “negative competition” there were ample parties to choose from so how was that negative competition? “lesser opportunities” how were there lesser opportunities?
    The simple fact is the Greens for decades now can’t pull 10% of the vote so 90% obviously don’t regard them as worth a vote so why should Labor burden itself with a party that is running in direct competition to it and the bulk of voters don’t want.From people I know if Labor did deals with the Greens it would cost them votes and probably lose them enough votes to have no real hope .

  61. havanaliedown

    The only purpose of the Greens is to elicit a second preference to the Labor candidate on the ballot paper.

  62. helvityni

    I’m always surprised how few foreign born there are in Australian Governments…

    Turnbull, Dutton, Morrison and Hanson ought have been very happy with that ad, give the jobs to the true blue Aussies, never mind if they have the skills to handle them….send the rest back where they came from…we have to preserve those unique Aussie values.

    I remember the ruckus that broke when we had three little scarf-wearing Muslim girls on a billboard promoting Australia Day.

  63. paul walter

    burniebob, has Tassie run out of ALL old growth rainforest to chop down? Is the resulting boredom the reason you plague this thread?

    Why not go out and put a few toxin riddled Tassie devils out there in the polluted catchments out of their misery, with a shovel.

    That would be as close to a kindness, or as close as someone as lazy and shortsighted as you, would ever get.

  64. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    havanaliedown,

    oh ye of little faith.

    Time to walk into 21st century.

  65. burniebobthe_b_

    paul walter
    I reckon you need to take off your shoes and use your toes to count as well
    ” Is the resulting boredom the reason you plague this thread?”
    I made 3 comments, {4 with this} you have waffled on all over the place with 7
    plaqueing?

  66. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Where do you see Australia’s future, burniebobthe_b_?

    Please give me 5 thoughts on what your preferences are and why.

  67. paul walter

    I’m not bothered with the individual, probably a lobbyist for Gunns rather than any sort of real Australian.

  68. corvus boreus

    Last election there was no real communication or co-ordination between Labor (34.73%) and the Greens (10.23%), who are, as has been astutely pointed out, two distinct and separate political parties.
    Both were defeated by the combined efforts of 4 other distinct political parties, Liberals (28.67%), Nationals (8.52%), LNP (4.61%) and CLP (0.24%), who worked together as a coalition and formed government.

    What do you get if you put three lefties in a room together?
    Two factions and a splinter.

  69. havanaliedown

    “oh ye of little faith” – great argument. Faith – as in religious faith? It explains your irrational fervour.

  70. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    corvus boreus,

    I hope the rusted-on here can add up coz these stats prove Labor and the Greens together would have beaten the fascists that took control.

    Goes to show what Labor and the Greens need to start doing right now to assure those people in the various constituencies throughout Australia that they won’t stuff up again and compete against each other but work together to assure a sound win of a new Alternative Government that rights all the LNP wrongs and advances Australia Fair.

  71. helvityni

    Jennifer, the Labor/ Greens marriage is the obvious thing to me; I don’t hold high hopes for it happening. Sigh.

    Why can’t people be sensible…?

  72. burniebobthe_b_

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith
    “these stats prove Labor and the Greens together would have beaten the fascists that took control.”
    Not in your wildest dreams do the stats prove that .
    Greens would still only have had one MP in the House of Reps and the ALP still only 69- a few seats short of the 76 needed.
    I would be interested in how you can to that maths to have them beat the LNP.and you do have a habit of making these unfounded statements and then failing to respond to questions.What is it,don’t you know the answers

  73. burniebobthe_b_

    helvityni
    Because a Labor Greens marriage would cause the ALP to lose too much support. I don’t think any of you are willing to accept the reality that 90%+ of the electorate don’t want the Greens.Here in my state in the state election they went so bad and lost so many votes they qualified to lose recognised Party status and the resultant benefits

  74. burniebobthe_b_

    corvus boreus
    Even on your stats the ALP would still only have won 69 seats and Greens 1-individually as parties or even in some crazy ALLiance right? the result would have been the same or Labor could have fared worse with the electorate if this ALLiance thing had been known pre election

  75. diannaart

    Just a comment 🙂

    burniebobthe_b_ May 8, 2017 at 8:26 pm
    …And just why should there have been when they are two distinct parties with their own policies candidates answering to their individual memberships and party rules and constitutions etc …

    No wonder we have problems with preference voting.

    Expecting left to cooperate with left and right with right… and, of course, the Liberal National Party, AKA the LNP is in fact two distinct parties with their own policies, candidates…..

    Please continue…

  76. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    burniebobthe_b_

    how’s cornlegend going?

    Better cooperation between the two would have ensured better targeted resources between the two parties and that would have ensured better wins for both parties. Comprenez?

  77. burniebobthe_b_

    Jennifer Meyer-SmithMay 9, 2017 at 10:27 am

    “burniebobthe_b_

    how’s cornlegend going?”

    Who?, is that a trick question or some in joke?

  78. Kaye Lee

    Very good point about the two distinct conservative parties that have found a way to co-operate diannaart. One would hope that the least the progressives could do would be find some common ground on policies rather than continually trashing each other.

  79. helvityni

    “A woman whose mother was found with maggots in her mouth at a nursing home near Newcastle is calling for mandatory reporting standards for such incidents.” (ABC online)

    I feel sick after reading that, could someone please start some kind of Health Care Party; I promise to join…..

  80. Möbius Ecko

    burniebobthe_b_, yet more people want the Greens than the Nationals.

  81. burniebobthe_b_

    Möbius Ecko
    your point being? other than neither are popular.I did see a poll in the Guardian a while back ” One Nation has a primary vote of 9.7%, ahead of the Greens on 8.9%.” It is just the Greens have been around forever and seem to have peaked out at 10% or under

  82. Michael Taylor

    burniebob, Mobius’s point was that more people want the Greens than the Nationals. It looked fairly straightforward to me.

  83. burniebobthe_b_

    Paul Walther it seems you need an education
    Labor saved the day on old growth forest

    After decades of conflict, sometimes fought tree-by-tree, chainsaws have been stilled in the old growth forests of Tasmania’s world heritage wilderness.

    The boundary described by federal Environment Minister Tony Burke as Australia’s most contentious heritage line was settled on Monday when UNESCO’s World Heritage Committee backed protection.

    About 120,000 hectares of old growth forest was formally included in a 170,000-hectare expansion of the existing Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area, giving those trees the highest level of conservation, Mr Burke said.

    ”These are extraordinarily precious areas of forest,” Mr Burke said. ”I have camped in and walked through these forests and they are some of the most amazing places on earth.”

    Labor ended the Franklin conflict

    “Later that year a $270 million ‘compensation’ package for Tasmania was agreed between PM Hawke and Premier Gray. The case was a landmark in Australian environmental and constitutional history. It established the Commonwealth Government’s power to protect the national environment on issues of international importance. The same power was subsequently used to protect the Daintree rainforests and Tasmania’s Lemonthyme and parts of the southern forests. –

    The greatest threat to Tasmanian devils is a disease called Devil Facial Tumour Disease, or DFTD for short:
    Devil Facial Tumour Disease is a very rare form of cancer that is spread when devils bite one another while they are fighting or mating.
    Scientists have studied the disease and discovered that it is a rare type of cancer which can be passed from devil to devil. More study has shown that the disease can “hide” from the devil’s immune system, and so special scientists are doing research to invent a vaccine which will help the devil fight the disease.

    Now if you know of some “toxin” that is causing the problem I urge you to contact the Tasmanian Government Department of Primary Industries, Parks, Water and Environment if you know more than all the scientists working on this problem

  84. burniebobthe_b_

    Michael Taylor
    The Greens run in every electorate in every election {to collect the election funding I believe} so their % is gathered over 150 seats where the Nats target winnable seats and only run in about 20% of the seats the Greens do, so given they don’t get votes in the other 80% of seats a base nation percentage is useless. The Nationals seem to have figured out how to spend resources and win-the Greens haven’t.
    Antony Green on the ABC site explains it much better than me and shows the National percentages are pretty meaningless unless a party contests every seat

  85. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    burniebobthe_b

    don’t try to hijack the discussion by saying what can’t be done. You can see here there is more support for the Greens and Labor to work together to win back government decisively from the Liberal and National distinct parties.

    You can also see there is reasonable consensus that neoliberalism has brought Australia down and there needs to be an injection of progressiveness, alternative measures, equitable distribution of opportunities and resources, which to my mind will come via Democratic Socialism or as others say Social Democracy.

    Your insistence that the Greens cannot contribute to that grand scheme in a meaningful way with Labor just identifies your frightened and jealous hold on duopoly power regardless of the consequences.

  86. burniebobthe_b_

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith I’m not hijacking anything just commenting and waiting for you to answer my questions. It isn’t my fault if 90% of the electorate don’t like the Greens including me and the little Greens clan on here haven’t changed my opinion one bit.Do you think that the only way -from your point of view-the Greens can get anywhere is cling to Labors coat tails.The only consensus I’m seeing on here is the same small group of faces day in day out.It may be a shock but you aren’t speaking for all Aussies just your little group who are here to backslap each other nd try to convince each other they are right.The ballot box doesn’t agree -sorry

  87. Kaye Lee

    There is no “group” and your assertion that there is reveals the “group” of which you are a part. JMS speaks for herself as does everyone here.

  88. burniebobthe_b_

    Of course there is a group same faces day in day out riding shotgun for each other just as you did then,Check tomorrow next week next month same small group congregating

  89. Matters Not

    Labor and The Greens enter an alliance if it means winning government:

    The ACT is now governed by a Labor-Green alliance based upon a power-sharing agreement. This agreement has 15 or more key points that lay out a basis for governance across a range of policy areas. It is the result of extensive negotiations between Labor leader Andrew Barr, the Chief Minister, and Greens leader Shane Rattenbury.

    Presumably neither side got all they wanted and there had to be compromise. Already it is clear that poker machine reform fell short of what the Greens would like. But the two parties have much in common so there would have been considerable common ground.

    Been going on for years. (But don’t tell anyone because it might ruin some claims to ‘purity’.)

    The agreement between two parties sits on a continuum in terms of arrangements between one in which a single member enters the ministry, as Rattenbury did last time, and a full coalition between two parties as exists between the Liberals and the Nationals at the federal level and in some states.

    When will they ever learn. Political parties do deals when necessary.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/a-renewal-of-vows-labors-powersharing-deal-with-the-greens-20161101-gsfbs0.html

  90. Michael Taylor

    It’s apparent that people aren’t entitled to ask questions.

  91. Kaye Lee

    What an utter load of rubbish. Yes we have regular readers. We also often disagree. If you think that saying someone is speaking for themselves and not for some group is riding shotgun then I think you already have your own agenda that won’t be deterred by facts.

  92. diannaart

    Damn straight, Kaye Lee.

    We are a disparate group, however there are some foundational values we hold dear:

    Peer reviewed evidence.

    Environment first over any economic system – if we cannot produce, then we have no economy.

    No abuse: Racists, homophobes and other bigots are not welcome if all they do is proffer insults, they are welcome to comments provided there is evidence for their claims (and good luck with that).

    …and other stuff we agree on but I have just returned from major grocery stock up and am a bit wrecked, others are welcome to add to the list of stuff we do agree on.

    🙂

    we also respect each other, this has taken time, but we earn regard because we are consistent, we admit to making mistakes and offer proof of our claims, either when asked or we provide links to legitimate websites.

  93. Matters Not

    The Australian Labor Party is itself a type of coalition. The Labor Right – sometimes called The Labor Forum (in Queensland), or Labor Unity in some other States – tends to be economically liberal and socially conservative when compared with the Labor Left – sometimes called the Progressive Left or the Socialist Left. To complicate matters ever further there are sub factions within.

    On some occasions members of the factions get together, do some horse trading, make compromises and the like. Depending on their numbers they will select candidates and adopt policy. And then try to keep factional differences out of sight. But not always.

    Parliamentary Members of the Labor Party know they have opponents sitting across from them. But they also know that their real enemies sit behind them. That’s party politics.

  94. helvityni

    I’m certainly not part of any group,I usually respond to someone’s post if I find it amusing.

    I always thought that Labor and the Greens would make good bed-fellows, there’s strength in the numbers….after all I live happily ( most of time) with my Green husband. Little spats between partners in marriage or in party politics are easily sorted…

    And as MN says, it seem to work in ACT.

  95. paul walter

    burnie bob, you are really like a medieval yokel calling for a witchburning, lest the subversives continue to mutter against the flat earth in favour of heliocentrism.

    Do you never consider your own underlying assumptions as to how the world operates?

    The fact that “90% of the public doesn’t like the Greens” therefore somehow invalidates Greens ideas (most of which used to be soc dem ideas) in themselves?

    I suppose you have a bee in your bonnet over Islam as well..all the bombs the wicked people hide under their burqas?

    Your laziness and the laziness of too many people like you like ensures Trump like governments just about across the world.

    Socrates, the great Athenian philosopher forced to kill himself by the mob, is said to have said that the, “unconsidered life is scarcely worth the consideration”.

  96. Matters Not

    paul walter, sometimes Socrates is cited in quotes:

    It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, is of a different opinion, it is only because they only know their own side of the question

    .
    John Stuart Mill 

  97. helvityni

    I have noticed that whenever there’s a little bit of friction between commenters, the comments on the thread will increase in numbers…

    On Tabletalk I used to call them ‘nesting’ blogs, in no time the number of replies rose to 600/1000… 🙂

  98. Rossleigh

    Personally, I never disagree with anyone…

  99. Rossleigh

    And speaking of Mark Latham, how long do you think it’ll be before he resigns from the Liberal Democrats in disgust because they all agree with him and there’s nobody to fight with?

  100. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Is Mark Latham still married? I pity his poor wife.

  101. Matters Not

    Rossleigh, David Leyonhjelm will soon be up for re-election. I suspect that now there will be a preselection contest.

    Yes Latham will resign in disgust when he is placed Number 2 on the ticket. Finds he has nothing in common with Leyonhjelm. Fights! Breaks arm(s)! And runs away to form a new Party of one (Mark Latham’s One Nation) so that he can occupy all positions on the ticket.

    He’s like that.

  102. paul walter

    This is marvellous stuff, here at this thread.

  103. burniebobthe_b_

    paul walter never in my life have I heard so much waffle come from one source!
    Matters Not -The Greens are in an arrangement in the ACT but it will probably end in tears.The Feds did it and said never again here in Tassie we have vowed never again and the rank and file have passed it.
    Look, I’m happy enough if all the Greens on here are happy supporting their party and may it continue,Good luck to them but stop trying to force yourselves on Labor.Get out there and campaign and if you get the numbers you can all be happy but Labor will set its own path -not including Greens.If you spent as much effort campaigning in your own right you might pick up a vote or two but if you are happy at the 8 to 10 % and expect Labor to save you forget it
    And Matters Not, Labor do have factions just as the Greens do and have you ever bothered to see just how many Greens Parties there are-mind boggling!!

  104. havanaliedown

    If it means forming government, like in 2010 – there will be another delightful mixed marriage signing ceremony – regardless of any declaration of enmity prior to seizing power. Will Labor get another Oakeshott and Windsor? I doubt it. But if they do Labor will out-bribe the Liberal naifs.

  105. havanaliedown

    “I pity his poor wife.” I think Mark has grown into a beautiful butterfly.

  106. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    burniebobthe_b_,

    when you’re proven wrong about the ACT arrangement between the Greens and Labor, will you be sure to make an apology to all of us who advocate them working together federally and in all the states?

  107. corvus boreus

    Funnily enough, prior to forming a minority government with the Greens in 2010, Tassie Labor leader David Bartlett vowed that he would not enter into any such arrangement.
    Both Labor and Green votes subsequently declined rather badly in the 2014 election result, but in Labor’s case the decline (down 9.55% and 3 seats lost ) continued a trend from the previous term (in 2010 the Labor vote was down 12.39% and 4 seats were lost from the 2006 result).
    The latest Tasmanian polls indicate a significant drop in support for the Hodgman government (35%), with both Labor (29%) the Greens (19%) gaining slightly (+1%), and PHON (who have never even run a candidate) polling at 6%.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-06/support-for-liberals-in-tasmania-drops-to-seven-year-low/8328882

    .

  108. Matters Not

    burniebobthe_b_ – they always say never again … until the next time. Power is addictive. Labor like all political parties will enter into ‘arrangements’ at any opportunity if it means getting the reins of power. Or keeping them. (Just for the record the Greens and Labor have endured for some time in the ACT), Sometimes it means appointing people as Speaker – try Peter Wellington here in Queensland.

    Speaking of ‘arrangements’. here in Queensland the Liberals ‘merged’ with the Nationals. The Nationals thought they were taking over the Liberals but in the morning as it were – the Nationals counted the numbers and found it was they who were f@cked. And there was no respect either. The Queensland Nationals are now under attack from One Nation and numbers are jumping ship – including parliamentary representatives. A gamble gone terribly wrong.

    Political Parties are alignments of convenience. Party policies are like railway platforms, they are there to get in from but not to remain on.

  109. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Maybe Labor is gearing up to throw the election again in 2018 as they did in 2016, so they don’t have to take the responsibility of government.

    While the ‘pollies-want-a-cracker’ are secure in their own livelihoods as pollies or party hacks, what do they care about the rest of us trying to keep our heads above the water?

  110. havanaliedown

    Labor chose their current zero of a leader very poorly – Albanese would beat Turnbull like a red-headed stepchild in an election. But Turnbull will be gone in the new year. Bishop or Abbott (it will be one or the other) would and will smash any of the Labor leadership contenders in the next election campaign.

    Happy days.

  111. corvus boreus

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith,
    Since individual politicians obtaining/retaining the various parliamentary seats (and thus reaping all the ‘resultant benefits’) is the basis by which our governments are formed, I sincerely doubt that Labor intentionally ‘threw’ the 2016 federal election (a ploy which would have sabotaged many of their ambitions, both individual and collective).

    ‘Never ascribe to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by incompetence’ (Hanlon’s razor).

  112. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    corvus boreus,

    probably so but it has been said several times to me here and elsewhere by Labor people that the last election was the one to lose!

    No election is the one to lose. The fact that the rusted-ons are willing to risk again such a loss, infuriates me.

    I know they’re watching the polls and they’re probably right to suppose they’ll win over the declining LNP dicks and bitches who can’t put a foot right but what I’m very angry about is that a mere win for the Labor mob is not enough because they’ve become not much better than the LNP mobsters.

    Winning is not enough. Defeating Neoliberalism and replacing it with Democratic Socialism is the way to go.

  113. Matters Not

    burniebobthe_b_: I suspect that most of the people on this site who complain about the current directions of the Labor Party are former Labor voters. And if you look more closely, I think you will find they remain ‘effective’ Labor voters in the HOR – albeit via their preference allocation.

    The Labor Party of today is not the Labor Party of yesteryear. That should be no surprise. After all the ALP has no metaphorical Bible nor Koran. Or indeed any detailed set of ‘truths’ to be learned and repeated mantra like without question. Rather it’s a vital, living, dynamic, ever changing organisation. (Yes there are ‘values’, ‘principles’, ‘ethical stances’, and the like which are widely shared but not always evident – at least at the verbalised level.)

    The direction(s) Labor might go (or not) comes from both within and without. Branch members are important in that regard via their policy making process (although that influence is vastly overrated and overstated). Labor power brokers – usually motivated by whatever it takes to win office – are extremely powerful. Because these ‘power brokers’ are forever changing it’s only reasonable to assume that ‘labor’ will change also. To suggest otherwise would be naïve.

    The forces that come from ‘without’ should not be discounted either. People often vote Green because they are aghast at the direction(s) ‘labor’ is going. The policies being pursued. In so doing they are exerting a force that the power brokers take into calculations. Sure such people demonise the Greens, particularly to Branch Members (no more defectors please) but first and foremost they are concerned with ‘realpolitik’. They are ‘practical’. They do deals. It’s those forces that people here are trying to exert. Trying to create a different ‘common sense’. I suggest that you take that into account. They are not your enemies. They give you preferences – in the main.

  114. paul walter

    Burnie bob’s last really just about sums up the attitude in some sections of Labor..no compromise on neolib policies (cut price tory, what was that about the Buffet Rule?)), no compromise even when compromise is the only way out, never look for the similarities of which there are many, never tolerate questioning of irrationalities, but just demand unconditional acceptance regardless of whether reason reveals faults or not.

    Never mind how long the Tories are in, just so long as you don’t compromise with the Greens, even when the case is good.

    The Greens aren’t perfect either, Di Natale is an example of much that is wrong with them with his silly MacCarthyist anti-left streak, but even at worst the Greens are no more pigheaded than the sort of inward-looking fearful Labor burnie bob represents.

  115. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    Hear, hear MN and PW

  116. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    havanaliedown,

    Surprise, Surprise I agree

    Albanese would be a far better leader than Shorten.

    What the hell was Labor doing to put Shorten in the front running?

    Labor might go ONE step forward with Shorten but in posterity I predict it will take Labor TEN steps back.

    Can anybody wonder why there are incensed intelligent people in the community?

    Labor needs to get real or expect to become extinct like the LNP dinosaurs.

  117. Freetasman

    I am looking froward to see the next couple of polls to see how many votes this budget managed to purchase at a cheap price.
    Regarding the ALP, Jennifer, unfortunately there are more neoliberals in the party than socialists so I cannot see any changes there.

  118. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    So talk them DOWN, Freetasman.

    Don’t just stand back and accept their sell-out to OUR labour and Labor heritage.

  119. burniebobthe_b_

    Jennifer Meyer-Smith
    “sell-out to OUR?”
    Did you join the ALP -when did you see the light and join our party?

  120. Matters Not

    burniebobthe_b_ – re ‘ownership’ of the ALP. As far as I understand it, ‘ownership’ of the ALP doesn’t come with a membership subscription. And perhaps, more importantly. the membership of a movement doesn’t begin or end because one doesn’t hand over an arbitrary amount of dollars at a particular moment in time so as to attend particular meetings to engage in (mostly) irrelevant discussions about ‘Labor Policy’.

    No – the labour movement is much broader than that. Accordingly, the ALP becomes a ‘means’ – not an ‘end’ in itself.

    What say you?

  121. paul walter

    Yes burniebob, it was wondeful watching that recent stirling example of (pivatising) Labor leadership, Anna Bligh grizzling on behalf of the banks being finally asked to stump a bit instead of always people at the bottom… btw, still awaiting your reply, re Buffet Rule.

  122. Matters Not

    Re Anna Bligh and her ‘growth’. First met her in late 1989/early 1990 after the election of the first Goss government when she was representing the UofQ academic staff association. Full of fire and brimstone then – principles, rights, oughts…

    And now she’s … Take your pejorative pick.

  123. Jennifer Meyer-Smith

    It appears to be only MN, PW and me making any sense here at this point of the discussion..

  124. paul walter

    As usual, JMS…as usual.

    Moving on, the budget..

    Not much talk on more ill treatment of welfare recipients but lots of gutsaching about those poor wallflowers of oz society, the banks.

    They didn’t have the guts to take on neg gearing and capital gains. Still, while we move with the times, lets see if others continue to attack their friends rather than their enemies.

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