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Completely and totally at the mercy of the environment

Climate Change and its Effect on Biodiversity

My! … That’s a big one!

Well, the name “Climate Change” speaks for itself. There’s no mistaking that title. But what of “Bio-diversity”? Life-diversity = Diverse life. What is that in regards to where we live and how will it be affected with slow or dramatic alteration?

Years ago, we purchased a bush block out there near Yookamurra Sanctuary. Some of it was regrowth, but there were stands of original mallee forest. After we purchased it we went for an “explore”. We walked down a track, on one side the evidence of regrowth, with its scattering of jagged limestone clusters on account of the clearing, on the other much more dense and uniform mallee trees with the burnished silvered leaf-litter spread away uniformly under the trees.

Something caught my eye and I turned off the track onto the leaf-litter. I had only gone about five steps in when I became aware of walking on a deep, soft bed of what must be undisturbed litter. Self-consciously, I back-tracked to the hard ground and looked where I had stepped.

My footprints had left an indelible impression on the litter, so soft and brittley fragile was the organic makeup. On close examination I could see the structure and substance of that delicate fabric spread wide over the forest floor. While the ground at my feet was dry and hard, the soil under the litter was moist, easily friable and composed of numerous tiny and minute insects feeding, no doubt, on many more decomposing insect, leaf-matter and fungi etc. Truly, the whole intricate composition of that sub-environment and the intertwined relationship with the insect kingdom had to be acknowledged as a natural work of art!

I stood up and stepped back to see the picture as a whole.

There above was the cloudy sky, then the mallee canopy down, down the silky branches to the scaly trunk and knobbly bole to the multilayered litter there on the forest floor. Each part there named adhered by an invisible tendon to the next and , as if in contractual agreement, one supplying the other with the necessities of life itself..take one away and break the link, the next will surely falter and, eventually, fail.

So that is what climate change most probably will do to such a specialised, interlinked environment. Especially now that it is already far stretched by the culled resources and erratic weather conditions experienced in the mallee.

That huge typhoon (read; cyclone) in the Philippines a couple of years ago; “Typhoon Haiyan”, gives cause for us to reflect how dangerous the weather has become. I will not debate here the ludicrous denial of climate change connection that is “fiddling while Rome burns”. We have a more pressing concern: What are we to do in the event of such a serious weather event in our district?

While I’d admit the likelihood of a typhoon striking the Murray-Mallee is remote, other storms and heatwaves most certainly will … and if we trust the science (as we do in a multitude of other categories), such storms and heatwaves may increase in size and intensity.

That death toll in the Philippines shows that regardless of preparation, the sheer depth and ferocity of the storm was underestimated. It is always too late once the disaster has hit! … I have worked in locations where the temperature can go to over 50 degrees … nothing of consequence functions for long above ground at that temperature! … here, in the mallee, we have come close to and in some places exceeded that temperature. If it was to become a regular thing over summer, it will be catastrophic for the very young and the aged. It is time we admitted, both to ourselves and to the world out there that we humans are completely and totally at the mercy of the natural environment … and we can no longer afford to ride roughshod over its existence.

We have said all that we can say in defence of sustainability, we have lamented all we can lament on environmental destruction … it is time now to act. We count on the government to implement policies that reflect concern on a global scale, while we implement actions on a local plan. We need our local government to design and deliver to the community a plan, a timetable and a costing drawn up and printed out on display in every town in the local council areas, showing step by step procedures to respond to dangerous weather systems.

The cruel visuals of the suffering and the dead of those people of the Philippines shows it is too late and too useless to have wisdom in hindsight … and I doubt among those throngs of injured, hungry, thirsty, homeless masses, there were too many of the wealthy and well-connected persons … they would’ve been long-gone before the typhoon hit! We have been warned with that tragedy and others … there is no doubt ferocious storms and severe drought will come our way … the last decade has been the hottest on record … the rising intensity of the storms and temperatures are what the science said they would be … all very well to wish it would go away … don’t we all wish such things would. But it isn’t, it won’t and it is here, it is now and it will only, with time get worse.

We have reached that ‘blind Freddy” moment where we have to concede that we, as mammalian species, are completely and totally at the mercy of the environment! We must acknowledge it … respect it!

Let us consider the poetical metaphor effect first promulgated by Edward Lorenz … that the infinitesimal movement of air from the flapping of a butterfly’s wing may create a “ripple effect” much like a pebble dropped into a pond, whose link doth cause a hurricane a thousand miles away. We need to “see” the biodiversity in the environment as a poet “sees”  life in the stanzas he composes, and then indeed, will we be mesmerised by nature’s song!


219 comments

  1. helvityni

    Huh, temperatures hovering over or around forty degrees…! Give me fifty degrees and I’ll be dead many times over…

    Our leaders can give us very sage advise, go to your air-conditioned shopping mall… If you say you don’t have one nearby, they’ll comeback about ‘life-style’ choices..

    They’ll also tell you that in the good old days when the USA style shopping centres started mushrooming in this country, the people in hotter Western suburbs of Sydney used to flock to them to cool down, not to shop…Winter time it was the opposite, the cold was the diving force then , especially for the women at home…

    They took their knitting with them…good old days….? Are they here again…?

  2. Kay Schieren

    The “environment ” is a euphemism for “the life support system” and that’s that. And we are an intrinsic part of it, unless we wish to be transformed into “meaty Robots” – which seems to be happening now. http://www.lifesupportinternational.org

  3. Freetasman

    Since the global climate change becomes an issue, the majority of the people that believe that it is a problem have expected that our political leaders will do something about it.
    So far, the leaders have not done much, not only because any action will affect the financial interest of the corporations that donate to their parties but also knowing that any policy that will affect the standard of living of the majority of the electorate will be political suicide.
    The attitude of “do something as long does affect me” rules because the greed for consumerism it is embedded in the people in the countries that can lead the reverse of the present situation.
    People and governments in Australia, and Europe scream with horror about the degradation of the Amazon and expect that Brazil do something about it, but are not prepared to set an example for Brazil to follow.
    So,let continuing with the excuses that we cannot survive without growth, that will be going back to live in a cave and we will leave this planet in a very bad shape for the generations to come.

  4. guest

    Burning coal does not help, yet those with vested interests claim that coal must be part of the mix for decades to come. Stop burning fossil fuels? Not yet, they say. They prefer to hang on to resources which are already being seen as “stranded assets”.

    Then we have the clearing of forests. Since 2012, 1.25 million hectares of forest have been cleared in Qld. In the Reef catchment zone 400, 000 h have been cleared. The Emissions Reduction Fund has paid $2.24 billion to industry to stop the release of greenhouse gas emissions; 65% of those funds (ie, $1.4 bn was directed towards plant vegetation). Wasted money?

    Meanwhile, each year 50m mammals, birds and reptiles are killed in Qld and NSW.

    For land clearance, Oz is on a par with Congo, the Amazon and Borneo. (source: The Courier Mail, Oct 9, 2017)

    Reduced gas emissions? Biodiversity? Green and sustainable food sources? Environment protection?

    Not in Oz. If it moves, shoot it. If it does not move, chop it down.

  5. Johno

    Well said guest, this ongoing land clearance in oz just shows our gross disrespect for nature, our fellow human, the paris agreement etc.

  6. Keith

    Johno
    There has been land clearing in Brazil, a new study indicates that the release of CO2 is higher than the uptake.

    Forbes says:
    “After fine-tuning the model, researchers found that the North American monsoon was not delayed due to a warming ocean, but significantly diminished due to a warming ocean. By correcting for sea surface temperatures, the model better fits historical data and more robustly predicted an overall decrease in the extent of the North American monsoon.”

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2017/10/10/california-deadly-fires-drought/#2a9bb02c5d63

    The Dotson Ice Shelf of West Antarctica is being undermined by warm water, warm water being a relative term.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/10/11/alarming-new-research-finds-that-the-ocean-is-cutting-through-a-key-antarctic-ice-shelf/?utm_term=.07860d695b4eOver developed

  7. wam

    I am a simpleton on coal.
    A billion white people got rich on coal and we took every thing we needed from the world’s poor.
    6 billion poor need to be rich but coal cannot be the means.
    It is in our interest to make the world rich by renewables because they will maintain our lifestyle.
    In this I have an audience of one.
    I have two more such audiences.
    My big sister was a loony green in tassie more than 50 years ago. She had made the trek to pedder.

    I thought it advantageous to set aside parts of Australia with no human interference no scientist, naturalist or explorers. (didn’t think much of feral animals beyond adapt or die)

    When the bauxite problems hit the east Arnhem area, I advocated succession from Australia, a la hutt river, and ask Russia or China for aid

    When SA announced it would no longer staff the NT from 1972 we had fun in the union with ‘it’s time for a flat high school structure’??

    sorry for the bullshit but what memories you have released.
    ta joseph.

  8. Harquebus

    Okay. Who are you and what have you done with the real Joseph Carli?

    “For generations, soil has been treated almost as a backdrop — not much more than a medium for holding plants while fertilizer and herbicides help them grow. The result, over the years, has been poorer and drier topsoil that doesn’t hold on to nutrients or water.”
    “Now, some farmers and soil scientists are realizing that for the health of both people and farms, the most important thing you can do is look at soil differently—seeing topsoil as a living thing itself, which can be tended and even improved.”
    http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/soil-health-agriculture-trend-usda-000513

    “Upon this handful of soil our survival depends. Husband it and it will grow our food, our fuel and our shelter and surround us with beauty. Abuse it and the soil will collapse and die, taking humanity with it.” — Sanskrit text 1500BC.

  9. guest

    Keith, I find your missive sourced from Forbes rather strange. My understanding about monsoons is that warm oceans help to create monsoons. People in the USA have said they have never seen such huge and ferocious monsoons like the recent ones. I have also seen a list of monsoon frequency going back to 1900 – not so many then, many more now. Judith Currie has said nothing about diminished monsoons, and struggled to show how the monsoons started when the Atlantic was at 26 degrees and she claims a temperature of 28 degrees is required (said it was something to do with wind sheer). It amaze me how every scientist in the USA has a different explanation.

    Warm water in the Antarctic we know about. Same with California drying out. And here in Oz the SE part of the country is drying out, crops diminishing.

    So where are we going? The idea of flying off to other planets and wrecking them is ridiculous. We cannot manage this one.

  10. Keith

    Guest

    Dr Judith Curry, has stated that she is a maverick like Dr James Hansen. Except Dr Curry is a anthropogenic climate change skeptic.

    I found the Forbes article quite interesting coming from a Business background.
    With climate change there is no longer seasonal consistency in what can be expected. India has had drought and horrendous monsoons. The Southern States in US have had drought and then extreme rainfall over the last few years. Fire seasons have extended in California.

    The extra rainfall (rain bombs) can be attributed to a climate change influence. The extended fire season in California has been attributed to climate change. The debate about whether extreme events are attributed to climate change or weather variability will go on, researching attribution has been an area gaining much effort over the last few years.

  11. corvusboreus

    Johno,
    From what I could glean regarding the soil itself, areas of bare (barren) soil seem to actually release lower levels of CO2 comparative to similar areas of soils that are vegetated, mainly due of the relative absence of biological respiratory processes (microbial, roots and fauna respiration), although the exposure to sun means they are more prone to temperature related chemical oxidization.

    Of course, this is countered by the carbon sequestration through photosynthesis (and all the other ecological functions) that vegetative cover provides, but yes, according to the driest possible science, dead soil breathes out less carbon.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009281916300551

  12. Johno

    corvusboreus.. cheers for that.

  13. win jeavons

    Then there is the insect issue. The attack on bio diversity following land clearing and pesticide/ herbicide overuse has damaged the viability of the pollinators we rely on ; not just the bees, but many other species most do not even notice. Add climate change disruption to the mix and extreme weather will not be the only problem. We could face serious hunger, even in affluent societies.

  14. Harquebus

    Are jobs and growth worth killing what we depend on for our survival? Our politicians and privileged classes think so.

    “We are living in an age of convergence where the consequences of decades of excess, greed, willful ignorance and dithering are finally reaching a climax. Where the chips fall in the coming years is anyone’s guess, but if we are honest we can get a pretty good picture of our current trajectory.”
    “Each day the unraveling of the biosphere becomes more and more apparent. The illusion that we are separate from the natural world is beginning to shatter as the human generated Sixth Mass Extinction unfurls before our eyes in real time.”
    https://kennorphan.com/2017/10/16/the-normalization-of-perpetual-disaster/

    “The current estimate among population biologists is that the planet has lost half the individual animals, plants, and other living things that make up our visible world.”
    “It has been the lot of common species to be mistakenly thought of as infinite in number. Until, one day, it turns out that they aren’t.”
    “Rusty-patched bumblebees now occupy just 0.1 percent of their historical range, and have declined in number by an estimated 93 percent. The causes are exactly the kind of large-scale, modern-life challenges that Gaston talks about: pesticide use, the conversion of grasslands into industrial farms, climate change, novel diseases.”
    “It is the curse of today’s biologists that they are forever being asked to justify the continued existence of non-human life. Every species, common or rare, is the product of millions of years of evolution, its journey to this point in time exactly as miraculous as our own, but this is evidently not justification enough. Can you eat it? Does it suck carbon out of the atmosphere? Could it cure cancer? If you squeeze it hard enough, will it ooze oil that can run my car?”
    “Widespread, abundant, adaptable—and damned. Why does it matter what happens to common species? Because we happen to be one of them.”
    https://psmag.com/magazine/tragedy-of-the-common

    “The elite of the world use debt as a tool of enslavement, and central banking has allowed them to literally enslave the entire planet.”
    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/how-the-elite-dominate-the-world-part-2-99-9-of-the-global-population-lives-in-a-country-with-a-central-bank

    “And by combining oxygen loss with ever-worsening ocean warming and acidification, humans are re-creating the conditions that led to the worst-ever extinction, which killed over 90 percent of marine life 252 million years ago.”
    “The trend of oxygen falling is about two to three times faster than what we predicted from the decrease of solubility associated with the ocean warming”
    “If we don’t start slashing carbon pollution, then, as co-author John Schellnhuber put it, “we will not be able to preserve ocean life as we know it.””
    https://thinkprogress.org/oxygen-levels-falling-2-to-3-times-faster-than-predicted-in-our-warming-oceans-7c1e9b48cd42/

    “The leading political force in this campaign [to suppress free speech] is the Democratic Party, working in collaboration with sections of the Republican Party, the mass media and the military-intelligence establishment.”
    “as countries in the West discuss potential Internet restrictions and wring their hands over fake news, hacking and foreign meddling, some in China see a powerful affirmation of the country’s vision for the internet.”
    “Since Google announced plans to bury “alternative viewpoints” in search results earlier this year, leading left-wing sites have seen their search traffic plunge by more than 50 percent. The World Socialist Web Site’s search traffic from Google has fallen by 75 percent.”
    “In one “democratic” country after another governments are turning to police-state forms of rule, from France, with its permanent state of emergency, to Germany, which last month shut down a subsidiary of the left-wing political site Indymedia, to Spain, with its violent crackdown on the separatist referendum in Catalonia and arrest of separatist leaders.
    “The greatest concern of the ruling elite is the emergence of an independent movement of the working class, and the state is taking actions to prevent it.”
    “The destruction of democratic rights is the political response of the corporate and financial aristocracy to the growth of working class discontent bound up with record levels of social inequality.”
    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/10/18/pers-o18.html

    “The short-term solution to our problems is the long-term cause of our problems: economic growth
    The long-term solution to our problems is the short-term cause of our problems: reduced consumption”
    “Every country has similar economic problems and not one leader anywhere in the world connects the dots and publicly acknowledges the root cause, even after they leave office: declining energy surplus a.k.a. energy extraction cost + debt”
    “The only possible permanent solution is rejected by the belief systems of 90+% of citizens: population reduction”
    “The scientific theory that explains the relationship between the economy, energy, and climate is ignored by everyone that should understand it”
    “The people who deserve the most respect and admiration get the least: scientists”
    http://energyskeptic.com/2017/rob-mielcarski-you-know-you-are-in-trouble-when/

    “Everything they have been taught about working, money and “quality of life” constitutes the planet’s greatest problem — overshoot.”
    “No matter what economists tell us abut getting the credit industry moving again, papering over debt with more debt will not pollinate our food crops when the last honeybee is dead.”
    “We are clueless, and the state sees to it that we stay that way.”
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2010/07/09/waltzing-at-the-doomsday-ball/

    “It is impossible to fulfill the continuously growing “needs”, demands, wishes, aspirations and ambitions of a continuously growing world population while our resource base is continuously dwindling and the ability of nature to absorb man-made pollution is continuously diminishing. It is a lunatic idea that in a finite world infinite growth is possible.” — Saral Sarkar

  15. Harquebus

    When it comes to population control or even removing the human species completely, coal is good.

    “Men’s sperm counts have plummeted by up to 60% over the last 40 years in Western countries and by nearly 30% since 2001 in China.”
    “for each 10 µg/m3 increase in SO2 exposure during the first stage of sperm development, sperm concentration dropped by 6.5%”
    http://axial.acs.org/2017/10/27/pollution-sperm-quality/

    “Even in places that are as remote as the Kimberly, every single one of those beaches had trash on it, whether it’s tyres or fishing gear, toothbrushes or balloons and things like that”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-31/plastic-garbage-covering-caribbean-waters/9099188

    “Where the petroleum industry is concerned, the picture is becoming clearer. The world’s appetite for oil is continuing to grow at around 1.4 mmb/d (1.5%) each year. Supplies of conventional crude have already peaked, and shale supply seems fairly close to doing the same.”
    https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2017/10/27/111-a-spike-to-puncture-the-bubble/

    At 1.5% growth rate, crude oil production will double in 47 years. It won’t happen. Peak oil mates, peak oil.

    doubling_time = 70 / growth_rate

  16. Harquebus

    Rather than creating jobs, we should be destroying them and rather than growing our economy, we should be shrinking it and rather than expanding our population, we should be taking humane measures to reduce it. That’s it. All other options will end in disaster.

    “Climate change migration is reaching crisis proportions, wrote Robert Glasser, the UN Secretary General’s Special Representative for Disaster Risk Reduction”
    “In short: the causes of the growing massive displacement of human beings are well known. People are forced to leave their homes and families due to the flagrant lack of political wisdom and the capacity of decision-makers to address the roots instead of just complaining and alarming their societies. Do they really think that building walls and wire fences can stop climate change, food insecurity, poverty and conflicts?”
    http://www.ipsnews.net/2017/10/roots-exodus-people-compelled-leave-homes/

    “The suburbs have three destinies, none of them mutually exclusive: slums, salvage, and ruins. The future has mandates of its own. If we want to remain civilized, we will be compelled to return to a landscape composed of relationships between town and country, at a scale that comports with the resource realities of the future.”
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/urbs/the-infinite-suburb-is-an-academic-joke/

    “When talking about the “economy”, we’re really referring to the flow of goods and services — which are themselves entirely dependent on energy. No energy = no goods and services = no economy. It’s really that simple.”
    “Most folks, though, willfully distract, if not delude, themselves with faith in our technological triumphs, so they remain blind to the evidence — even when it’s right in front of their faces.”
    “If perpetual economic growth isn’t possible, then the entire construct of debt-based money will eventually implode.”
    “The hard truth is that, after just a few hundred years of intensive exponential economic growth fueled by the industrial revolution’s greatest achievement – unlocking fossil fuels to perform work for us – we are now scraping the bottom of the barrel.”
    “Now we likely should also be asking Why are we doing this? And What is today’s scarcity tell us about tomorrow?”
    “But what are 5-mile long oil boreholes and mile-deep copper mines but clear-cut, incontrovertible evidence that we are on the difficult part of the extraction slope?
    It’s not like engineers are dreaming up risky, expensive projects for fun. They are chasing what’s left.”
    “Growth will slow down for the simple reason that it’s far easier to grow 4% from a smaller base than from a larger one. It’s doubly hard to grow that 4% on a larger base if the resources required for that growth are more expensive, more dilute, deeper and vastly more energy-intensive than the similar resources that funded prior growth.”
    “The bottom line is this: humans are now at the desperate phase of trying to keep the perpetual expansion model alive. These efforts are clearly failing, which we can detect in faltering ecosystems, slowing global growth, and immensely energy-intensive and environmentally-destructive efforts to get the remaining dregs out as fast as possible.”
    http://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-11-03/resource-limitations/

    “In just one generation, all of the marvellous new technologies, that were going to make everyone happy and free, have been used to achieve the exact opposite.”
    “At the heart of this is the vile economic model, widely known as capitalism, much beloved by our great and trusted leaders because it makes them obscenely wealthy. And at the heart of capitalism is a ridiculous, stupid, concept — a dogma of permanent growth.”
    “If endless growth is the malignant tumour at the heart of capitalism, the worst manifestation of endless growth, by far, is the endless growth of the human population.”
    “Human beings are behaving like a parasitic plague all around the world, and most other living things are suffering to the point of extinction because of the insatiable greed of our great trusted leaders.”
    “Continual growth of human beings means a continually growing supply of capitalism’s two most important drivers: slave labour and consumers.”
    “millions of people suffer the most unimaginable hardships just to find enough to eat, and safe shelter to survive one more night. This is the vast, bottomless pool of exploitable labour from which the most despicable and unscrupulous human beings amass vast fortunes and wallow in obscene splendour.”
    “Suggesting that growth is not a good thing, that it’s actually harmful and destroying our planet before our very eyes, is tantamount to heresy. But permanent growth can only be achieved by permanently increasing the number of consumers. Given that big business has never let long-term considerations interfere with its short-term profits, it’s unsurprising that big business does absolutely nothing to correct the obvious flaw in its central argument — that infinite growth from finite resources is obviously impossible.”
    “The vast majority of us, the 99 percenters, are no more than tools of the 1%, the essential providers of their obscene wealth; and we are the single most important cause of the rapidly increasing destruction of our planet, the drivers of its sixth mass extinction.”
    “The numbers of human beings must be brought down, steadily reducing them until such time as species extinction because of human overpopulation ends, and we no longer need four Earth-sized planets to sustain us. At that time, and only at that time, could humans safely raise the one-child policy to a two-child policy – something which would keep the numbers of human beings in harmony with the rest of life on Earth.”
    https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/11/the-buck-stops-here/

    “Anyone who perceives a linear rate of growth, but who is actually up against an exponential rate of growth, is likely to be very surprised at how the end comes very quickly and seemingly out of nowhere. They will be completely blindsided.” — Michael Mills Ph.D.

  17. Matters Not

    Christ he’s effing thick. Drip, Drip, Drip,Drip, Drip, Drip ,Drip, Drip, Drip, … ad infinitum.

    It’s an illness. But no pity,

  18. Kaye Lee

    “Rather than creating jobs, we should be destroying them”

    What a totally inane comment. The nature of work is changing (as it always has) and we must change with it. How could it hurt the world if all teachers had teachers’ aides in the classroom or if people acted as companions to the elderly in nursing homes? Why would it be bad if we employed people to plant trees or rehabilitate abandoned mines? What would be the harm of employing people to teach us languages? how do those who make our lives worthwhile through their artistic contributions harm the world?

    What are your “humane measures to reduce” population and why do you continually refuse to accept all the data about empowering and educating women and lifting people out of poverty which does exactly what you want without having to kill anyone?

    “That’s it. All other options will end in disaster.”

    I feel so sorry for you. You have finished learning. Actually, I don’t really feel sorry for you. I think you are astonishingly arrogant to think you know it all. There is no wonder in your narrow little outdated world.

  19. Harquebus

    Matters Not
    No need to ask if you read anything in what I posted. Your remark says more about you than it does about me.

  20. Matters Not

    Your remark says more about you than it does about me

    I fucking hope so! You make an excellent case for censorship.

  21. Michael Taylor

    Agreed, MN. Will consider that option.

    An emergency meeting of The AIMN cabinet is underway.

  22. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    We can not provide full time jobs for everyone. I could be that all workers work a lot less hours while all of us, working or not, make do or do without. Jobs for jobs sake does more damage than good. There is another side to the equation, the number of workers. There are too many.
    As is stated in one of the articles that I posted, we are going to have to decide which is more important and abandon the rest.

    Matters Not
    ” You make an excellent case for censorship.”
    Again, you are saying something about yourself. Censorship is something that I would never promote. In fact, just the opposite.

  23. Miriam English

    Harquebus, Kaye is right. You just never learn. You’re stuck at some point and no further information penetrates. I’m baffled.

    We are faced with dangerous problems. We have many good solutions staring us in the face. Thankfully, increasing numbers are adopting them and pressure is mounting on the rest to do so too. But H, you stand almost alone saying in full religious paradox that we must embrace the problem as the solution. You keep saying that we must destroy jobs, destroy lifestyle, forcefully regulate procreation, and civilisation must fall. Don’t you understand that all you are doing is casting the calamity as the solution?

    H, I could go through long lists of the solutions at hand, but you reflexively dismiss them without evidence. They interfere with your vision of collapse, so cannot be tolerated. Renewable energy is here, increases in efficiency every year, while becoming more affordable. Energy-efficient building methods are having a renaissance. Increasing numbers of people are moving into information-based careers that have decreasing effects upon the material world while increasing our level of luxury. The idea of a universal basic income (UBI) is being welcomed across all political and philosophical ideologies. Education and empowerment of women in poverty-stricken parts of the world is lifting those people out of their dire straits while dramatically decreasing population growth.

    H, the future that you welcome will worsen every aspect of the world. It would have horrific impact on ecologies because agrarian societies have little respect for the environment. With the loss of high technology people would turn once more to burning wood for energy and rapidly desertify their landscape while increase the CO2 load on the atmosphere. With the loss of medical support from integrated society illness and misery would proliferate, and predictably, birthrate would skyrocket. Your way not only recasts collapse as “solution” it would worsen everything you would hope to fix.

  24. Oscar

    Michael can anyone attend this Bored Meeting? Pun intended

  25. Michael Taylor

    Oscar, I will sit as your proxy. ?

  26. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    I used to think like you but, I learned.

    “dismiss them without evidence.”
    Hundreds of links I have posted as evidence. See above, below and previous articles from theAIMN’s environment section for examples.

    For the natural world, civilization collapse can’t come soon enough but, that does not mean that we can’t have a functioning civil society. All that is required is the recognition and acceptance of resource and environmental limits.

    “Earth, and all life on it, are being saturated with man-made chemicals in an event unlike anything in the planet’s entire history”
    “Mt Everest’s snow is so polluted it doesn’t even meet EPA drinking water standards”
    “So, even though Earth is turning into a chemically soaked sphere above and beyond the wildest of imagination, according to UN Environment Program, most of those chemicals blanketing the planet have never been screened for health concerns.”
    “Witnessed from outer space, aliens must be horrified. No wonder they haven’t landed.”
    “As a result, industrial toxins are now found worldwide in newborn babies. When will humans start glowing in the dark?”
    “Problem: People need insects a lot more than insects need people. Without insects 80% of plants will die. The plants are angiosperms, meaning they need pollination. Mass starvation ensues. There’s no way around it.”
    “When it comes to peacetime chemical warfare, the Trump administration simply gives the finger to both the UN and the UK chief scientist, and for that matter, all scientists. Who needs ’em?”
    “Earth is experiencing a huge episode of population declines and extirpations, which will have negative cascading consequences on ecosystem functioning and services vital to sustaining civilization.
    “In other words “biological annihilation” is right around the corner. Isn’t that just great!”
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/30/a-dripping-wet-chemical-planet/
    Note: The author of this article, Robert Hunziker, is one of a very few good journalists. Most are just shills.

    “The crisis has been worsened because the US Congress this year insisted that a backup sea-ice probe had to be dismantled because it did not want to provide funds to keep it in storage. Congress is currently under the control of Republicans, who are antagonistic to climate science and the study of global warming.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/nov/05/donald-trump-accused-blocking-satellite-climate-change-research

    “the direct correlation between economic growth and the growth of energy consumption is because economic growth is fundamentally dependent on and enabled by energy.
    Human population, the global economy, and energy production have all “grown exponentially”, yet energy still imposes fundamental constraints on economic growth and development.”
    “conventional economists failed to anticipate the 2008 global financial crisis, and since then have consistently failed to anticipate the major economic crises in ensuing years, while consistently and incorrectly forecasting returns to economic growth. In reality economic growth on a global scale is experiencing an unmistakable plateau, that correlates clearly with the emerging plateau in energy production”
    “According to Jancovici, since the 1960s—which is when the EROI of the global fossil fuel system as a whole was at its highest according to most studies: “…the growth rate of the GDP per capita (world average) has been slowly—and constantly— decreasing…” (Jancovici 2013 ).”
    “The neoliberal era, with its policies of extreme deregulation, debt-money expansionism and harsh national austerity, is thus a direct product of the changing dynamics of the global energy system and the transition into a world of more expensive, lower quality, and environmentally more destructive fossil fuels.”
    “Economic growth, to the extent that it has been able to continue, is being driven largely by an increasing availability of cheap credit—rather than any fundamental and permanent transformations in energy intensity.”
    http://energyskeptic.com/2017/nafeez-ahmed-economists-ignore-laws-of-physics/

  27. Jan

    Miriam English: Breath deeply and hold your fire.

  28. Kronomex

    I’m not going to be polite this time. For fucks sake Harquebus, can’t you frigging spare us your ongoing rants and bullshit for at least one day a week? Go and create your own bloody blog and leave us in peace!

  29. Joseph Carli

    It would seem that Harquebus has self-promoted himself to the title of a “Cassandra”..warning of a dire future and here we are not listening to him..But to be fair to the rider on the pale horse, I too have reservations on our civilisation lasting, but..and here I emphasise the difference..but I believe it will fall through a more soul-destroying event…I wrote a post on the subject a while ago..: https://freefall852.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/how-the-west-was-lost/ …I don’t think it was taken too seriously..
    However, I do base my theory on reading of the demise of literature and the arts in the time of the end of the Roman republic, when much artistic taste under the authoritarian rule of the new monarchy of Julius Caesar and then Augustus brought a more severe censorship to the arts…and the Hellenic influence that was imitated since Pericles rule in Athens became stultified and banal…We in the West, bludgeoned under so much right-wing tyranny are losing the ability to sculpture our feelings with adroit turn of phrase and sensitivity of soul…so much is only surface material…We are dying by degrees.
    “This is how the world will end…”

  30. Rossleigh

    Gee, Harquebus, you’ve made me so depressed that I’m going out to spend some money to cheer myself up!
    I suggest that everyone else does the same! It may create a few jobs, but, hey, everything’s stuffed anyway so we might as well live it up a little…

  31. Miriam English

    Harquebus, as I’ve reminded you countless times, posting opinion is not the same as posting evidence. And most unfortunately, that which you choose to post is mostly wrong opinion. You merely add more bias to your confirmation bias. I guess it’s not surprising that you’re unable to see reality for all the falsehoods crowding your view.

    This is one of the worst aspects of the internet. People have always surrounded themselves with things that suit their own viewpoint (“birds of a feather flock together”), but the internet makes it far easier than ever before to become a raging bigot entirely embedded inside your own worldview, supported by countless others found in the furthest dark corners of the net. It makes entirely unpopular and irrelevant beliefs seem mainstream and highly acclaimed to those unlucky dupes who hold them. This is why facts matter more than ever before. Opinion is not just unreliable, but has become genuinely dangerous. The idiotic claim that “I have the right to my opinion” should be torn apart and shredded relentlessly. None of us should any longer have any right to opinions; we only have a right to the facts. And this is precisely why lying politicians and mainstream media should suffer very heavy penalties for propagating falsehoods and distorting the truth. They attempt to deny us the facts.

    Joe, I sympathise, and partially agree, but don’t forget that every generation says that the next generation’s art is crude, and lacking in subtlety and respect for form. Naturally the final generations would say that about those inheriting the failing Roman Empire. Every generation before and since has said the same. Likewise every younger generation says that the preceding generation’s art is stodgy and lacks novelty. Interestingly, and hilariously, both are generally correct. There are rarely some world-changing events that break this steady chain of self-deception we all fall prey to — the drugs and rock’n’roll culture of the ’60s/70s was one; the Renaissance which ended the moribund, corrupt, Christian theocratic rule of the Dark Ages was another; I think we are currently stumbling blindly through another pivotal time right now.

  32. Miriam English

    Harquebus, you will no doubt ignore any rebukes that impugn your sources. You are far too credulous and gullible in believing those who happen to echo your own beliefs back to you.

    To point out how wrong you are, I’ll just take a couple of examples:

    that pollution is so bad that even the snow on distant Mt Everest is too polluted for consumption — this contains the unspoken bias that Mt Everest is remote and should therefore be pristine and uncontaminated, but in fact Mt Everest is a mecca for mountain climbers and self-obsessed executives everywhere so that its frozen slopes contain the poop and piss of countless thousands of tourists. All the surrounding mountains remain pristine, but Everest has become a frozen lavatory.
    that there remains a direct relationship between energy consumption and economic growth — this was shown to be in error back in the 80s, during the oil price rises then, and has been shown to be even more mistaken now, when economic growth and energy consumption have become greatly decoupled. Electricity companies worldwide bought into this fallacy and were caught out when making smug projections based on it. That mistake was particularly noticeable here in Australia.

    Your sources are ignoring facts and spouting erroneous opinion. You, on your messianic Chicken-Little quest have bought into the bullshit and swallowed it unquestioningly.

    Facts are important Harquebus. Without them you become that weird guy standing on the corner, annoying passers-by, brandishing a Bible and calling out “Repent sinners! The end is nigh!”

  33. Miriam English

    Rossleigh, thanks for making me smile. 😀 Nicely done.

  34. Joseph Carli

    Yes, Miriam..I don’t doubt that the next epoch will produce outstanding artistic achievements…But that is the next…no longer (perhaps) us..as it marked the end of imaginative thinking in the time of the first Caesars…so that a once great enterprise of the attempt to “Romanise the known world” with civilising universal laws and infrastructure and governance degenerated into brutal gladiatorial games and endless warfare..equal in our own age with cameras on drones as they machine-gun civilians a world away in the name of continuous war and the military.industrial machine..neither gave sufficient pause to the creative arts to regenerate the human spirit..THAT is the visible and measurable decline and fall of empire…
    “I have a dream…”

  35. Miriam English

    Oh, and Harquebus, you never thought like me.

    I constantly question my own views and adapt them to the data as they become available. I like to to be shown any mistakes I make, because I hate to continue to be wrong.

    You reverse the process: you choose a belief, then seek out things said by others that support your view, actively ignoring anything that would challenge it. You refuse to listen when told of your errors because it’s too difficult to change your worldview to incorporate the facts that conflict with it.

  36. Harquebus

    I also see similarities between the ancient Roman civilization and our own; bread, circuses, celebrity chefs and currency debasement.

    Rossleigh
    Mankind is not prepared to do what is required so, from that perspective, yours is a good move and a good suggestion. Really.

    Miriam English
    Miriam, as I’ve reminded you countless times, posting rubbish is not the same as posting information. And most unfortunately, that which you choose to post is rubbish. You merely add more bias to your confirmation bias. I guess it’s not surprising that you’re unable to see reality for all the falsehoods crowding your view.

    Thanks for that. Couldn’t have said it better. My apologies for the plagiarism. I couldn’t resist.

    I haven’t actually read the following article yet but, will shortly. Unless stated otherwise, all links that I post I have read and unless accompanied by a search criteria, are from my list of saved articles.

    “Results show that As and Cd are both above USEPA drinking water guidelines in all snow samples, and arsenic is above the USEPA soil screening guidelines in all soil samples”
    https://www.crops.org/files/publications/soil-survey-horizons/ssh-fall-2010-feature.pdf

    Search criteria: mt everest fallout pollution

    The human waste problem around Mt Everest makes me wonder why people still want to go there.

  37. Jan

    Miriam Your on your own there girl.

  38. Joseph Carli

    And you are so correct, Miriam…H has become obsessed with the failure rather than the promise of humanity..but I suspect it is more a symptom than we realise…When I post those Sunday reflections up here, I do so not just to entertain, but to measure reaction to something different to the raw news commentary that fronts the board on the rest of the week..I measure the interest , check the numbers that “view” the piece and on the amount and depth of commentary on the piece..and I have to say that as a item of interest in themselves, even considering the documentary / story encapsulated in them is a metaphor of current events, they are a failure in attracting interest enough (except from the curious/interested few) for the reflection that I had in mind…the story is less interesting than the harsh reality it seems…(dinner calls).

  39. Miriam English

    Joe, that’s true, however we no longer have a culture that conforms to a single narrative. I was really struck by this a while back when I was looking at the ID3v2 genre tag in MP3 audio files. It defines audio file genres:

    [0] => Blues
    [1] => Classic Rock
    [2] => Country
    [3] => Dance
    [4] => Disco
    [5] => Funk
    [6] => Grunge
    [7] => Hip-Hop
    [8] => Jazz
    [9] => Metal
    [10] => New Age
    [11] => Oldies
    [12] => Other
    [13] => Pop
    [14] => R&B
    [15] => Rap
    [16] => Reggae
    [17] => Rock
    [18] => Techno
    [19] => Industrial
    [20] => Alternative
    [21] => Ska
    [22] => Death Metal
    [23] => Pranks
    [24] => Soundtrack
    [25] => Euro-Techno
    [26] => Ambient
    [27] => Trip-Hop
    [28] => Vocal
    [29] => Jazz+Funk
    [30] => Fusion
    [31] => Trance
    [32] => Classical
    [33] => Instrumental
    [34] => Acid
    [35] => House
    [36] => Game
    [37] => Sound Clip
    [38] => Gospel
    [39] => Noise
    [40] => Alternative Rock
    [41] => Bass
    [42] => Soul
    [43] => Punk
    [44] => Space
    [45] => Meditative
    [46] => Instrumental Pop
    [47] => Instrumental Rock
    [48] => Ethnic
    [49] => Gothic
    [50] => Darkwave
    [51] => Techno-Industrial
    [52] => Electronic
    [53] => Pop-Folk
    [54] => Eurodance
    [55] => Dream
    [56] => Southern Rock
    [57] => Comedy
    [58] => Cult
    [59] => Gangsta
    [60] => Top 40
    [61] => Christian Rap
    [62] => Pop/Funk
    [63] => Jungle
    [64] => Native US
    [65] => Cabaret
    [66] => New Wave
    [67] => Psychadelic
    [68] => Rave
    [69] => Showtunes
    [70] => Trailer
    [71] => Lo-Fi
    [72] => Tribal
    [73] => Acid Punk
    [74] => Acid Jazz
    [75] => Polka
    [76] => Retro
    [77] => Musical
    [78] => Rock & Roll
    [79] => Hard Rock
    [80] => Folk
    [81] => Folk-Rock
    [82] => National Folk
    [83] => Swing
    [84] => Fast Fusion
    [85] => Bebob
    [86] => Latin
    [87] => Revival
    [88] => Celtic
    [89] => Bluegrass
    [90] => Avantgarde
    [91] => Gothic Rock
    [92] => Progressive Rock
    [93] => Psychedelic Rock
    [94] => Symphonic Rock
    [95] => Slow Rock
    [96] => Big Band
    [97] => Chorus
    [98] => Easy Listening
    [99] => Acoustic
    [100] => Humour
    [101] => Speech
    [102] => Chanson
    [103] => Opera
    [104] => Chamber Music
    [105] => Sonata
    [106] => Symphony
    [107] => Booty Bass
    [108] => Primus
    [109] => Porn Groove
    [110] => Satire
    [111] => Slow Jam
    [112] => Club
    [113] => Tango
    [114] => Samba
    [115] => Folklore
    [116] => Ballad
    [117] => Power Ballad
    [118] => Rhytmic Soul
    [119] => Freestyle
    [120] => Duet
    [121] => Punk Rock
    [122] => Drum Solo
    [123] => Acapella
    [124] => Euro-House
    [125] => Dance Hall
    [126] => Goa
    [127] => Drum & Bass
    [128] => Club-House
    [129] => Hardcore
    [130] => Terror
    [131] => Indie
    [132] => BritPop
    [133] => Negerpunk
    [134] => Polsk Punk
    [135] => Beat
    [136] => Christian Gangsta
    [137] => Heavy Metal
    [138] => Black Metal
    [139] => Crossover
    [140] => Contemporary C
    [141] => Christian Rock
    [142] => Merengue
    [143] => Salsa
    [144] => Thrash Metal
    [145] => Anime
    [146] => JPop
    [147] => SynthPop

    …and it is still awfully incomplete. Our current society is the most diverse that has ever existed.

    You’re right that the aspect that is eating itself in perpetual war is destined to die. It’s hard to say how much else will be brought undone by them, but the more diverse we are the safer we become.

  40. Miriam English

    Harquebus, I see the perimeter defenses are still intact. You deflect by pretending that my way of thinking is equivalent to yours. You don’t even realise that this undercuts your own beliefs: if my view is no more reliable than yours then you need to seriously question whether you could be wrong. But of course you won’t, because it was done insincerely.

  41. Joseph Carli

    Clarence Darrow wrote that ;
    ” Everyone knows that the best portrayals of life are tame and sickly when matched with the realities. For this reason, the sophisticated Romans were wont to gather at the Colosseum to feast their eyes on fountains of real blood and await breathlessly the final thrust. The courtroom is a modern arena in which the greatest thrills follow closely on each other. If the combat concerns human life, it presents an atmosphere and setting not unlike those cruel and bloody scenes of ancient Rome. The judge wears the same flowing robe with all the dignity and superiority he can command. This sets him apart from his fellow-men, and is designed to awe and intimidate and to impress the audience with seeming wisdom oftener than with kindliness and compassion.”
    It has the capacity to become an addiction as much as any drug..the outrage exhibited and commented upon melts and melds into each other, especially in this time of the internet, so that the endless extensions of cause/commentary is as one continuous thread of thought..much like the “one thought – one action” of a hive of bees or a nest of ants.
    The only way to break such a cycle in a mass of humanity is with art..small increments of different genre allow a escape route..a safety valve, I believe…

  42. Joseph Carli

    That list is extrordinary, Miriam..but surely some of those “styles” are but a variation upon a theme..so to speak..much like “Trad Jazz” is a variant of impromtu jazz..?

  43. Miriam English

    Joe, interesting quote from Clarence Darrow. Thank you for that. It probably goes a long way to explaining the widespread fascination for modern overblown adventure films punctuated with explosions and ferocious battles.

    Absolutely, many of those musical styles are shades of others, but that’s how all genres grow and develop. Gradually they diversify until becomes difficult to believe that they started out as related.

  44. Harquebus

    GDP growth is cancer. Whenever a politician advocates more, they are advocating death for many species, including our own.

    “Is our relentless quest for economic growth killing the planet?”
    “When pressed by a journalist for a clear answer on the “are we f**ked” question, Werner set the jargon aside and replied, “More or less.””
    “So it stands to reason that, “if we’re thinking about the future of the earth, and the future of our coupling to the environment, we have to include resistance as part of that dynamics”.”
    “he is saying that his research shows that our entire economic paradigm is a threat to ecological stability. And indeed that challenging this economic paradigm – through mass-movement counter-pressure – is humanity’s best shot at avoiding catastrophe.”
    “But there are many people who are well aware of the revolutionary nature of climate science. It’s why some of the governments that decided to chuck their climate commitments in favour of digging up more carbon have had to find ever more thuggish ways to silence and intimidate their nations’ scientists.”
    https://www.newstatesman.com/2013/10/science-says-revolt

    “Phosphorus has contributed to a global surplus of food that has fed millions. Unfortunately, phosphorus, like many other important resources such as water or energy, is limited. There is no replacement for phosphorus, and without its role in fertilizer, millions will go hungry.”
    http://hir.harvard.edu/article/?a=13155

    Do we need economic growth
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csvqg5

    “We exploit time series on the appropriation of 27 global renewable and nonrenewable resources. We found 21 resources experienced a peak-rate year, and for 20 resources the peak-rate years occurred between 1960-2010, a narrow time window in the long human history.”
    https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol19/iss4/art50/

    “Her husband, Peter, proudly tells me she could beat most men in a fight: “Miriam is the hunter and I’m the cook. She’s much stronger than me. Women are better shots,” he says. “And they’re more careful,” adds Miriam. “They are less driven by trophy hunting. They have less of a need to prove themselves.””
    https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/05/wild-at-heart-how-one-woman-and-her-husband-live-out-in-the-woods

    “finance and advertising don’t create new value, they only allocate, or distribute existing value”
    “If we subtracted allocative industries from GDP, we’d see that economic growth is in fact below population growth , and has been for a very long time now, probably since the 1980s”
    “Today, that trick is over, and economies “grow”, but people’s lives, their well-being, incomes, and wealth, do not, and that, of course, is why extremism is sweeping the globe.”
    https://eand.co/how-economics-failed-the-economy-9f464e0eed9d

    “If livestock production continues to grow at the rates estimated by the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, greenhouse emissions from the meat and dairy industries will undercut attempts to keep global average temperatures below 2°C.”
    “A previous study showed beef, when compared to staples like potatoes, wheat and rice, has a per calorie impact that requires 160 times more land and produces 11 times more greenhouse gases.”
    https://www.ecowatch.com/meat-dairy-emissions-2508107935.html

  45. Harquebus

    Moderator.
    theAIMN is so slooooow today. It continually connects to third party sites in a continuous loop. Consequently, the edit facility is not available. Would you please be king enough to alter the first sentence to read, “they are advocating certain death for many species, including our own.”
    Thanking you in advance.

    10 minutes and the page still hasn’t finished contacting external sites. Someone needs to take a good at your java script.

  46. Michael Taylor

    Harquebus, I fixed up any issues with the java script and now the site is running a lot quicker for me.

    If anything further has to be done then it’ll have to be put on hold for two reasons:

    1. It is beyond my level of expertise.

    2. Given that it’s beyond my level of expertise it’ll mean that I’ll have to pay the web developer $120 an hour to fix it. We don’t have the money. I’ll have to wait until we get more donations.

  47. Harquebus

    Michael Taylor
    Muchas gracias amigo.
    You can delete this and my previous if you wish.

  48. Miriam English

    Perhaps delete his usual link-vomit along with it too.

  49. Harquebus

    I have often complained that many here are not factoring externalities in regards to the manufacture of renewable energy devices and have regularly posted a link about how the lower cost has come at the expense of the environment and the suffering of wage slaves in Asia. This one:
    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31478-china-s-communist-capitalist-ecological-apocalypse

    Now comes the basket of consequences.
    “Prices of polysilicon, the main component of photovoltaic cells, spiked as much as 35 percent in the past four months after environmental regulators in China shut down several factories.”
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-13/solar-companies-grapple-with-unexpected-shortage-of-key-material

    “Twenty-five years after 1,700 scientists issued a “warning to humanity” about environmental degradation, more than 15,000 experts updated the alert this month and noted that virtually all the planet’s problems are getting “far worse”.”
    https://m.phys.org/news/2017-11-science-climate-bad-worse.html

    Here is another article from someone who thinks they know but, actually doesn’t. It all stems from diminishing returns on energy production which, the author appears to be completely ignorant of. We are well past peak energy per capita. That means less energy on average for all which, is being reflected in high energy prices and guarantees a decaying real economy. I say the “real economy” because, the stock market and the financial sectors are not the real economy.

    “Successive Australian governments have achieved economic growth by blowing a property bubble on a scale like no other.”
    “It’s well known that high levels of household debt are negative for economic growth, in fact economists have found a strong link between high levels of household debt and economic crises.
    This is not good debt, this is bad debt. It’s not debt being used by businesses to fund capital purchases and increase productivity. This is not debt that is being used to produce, it is debt being used to consume.”
    “Rather than modernising the economy, they have us on a debt fuelled housing binge, a binge we can’t afford.”
    “But both [Fairfax and Murdoch] are loss-making old media empires whose only major growth profit centres are the nation’s two largest real estate portals, realestate.com.au and Domain. Neither report real estate with any objective other than the further inflation of prices.”
    https://medium.com/@matt_11659/matt-barrie-australias-economy-is-a-house-of-cards-6877adb3fb2f

    “A steady increase in ocean temperatures — nearly 3 degrees Fahrenheit in recent decades — was all it took to doom the once-luxuriant giant kelp forests of eastern Australia and Tasmania: Thick canopies that once covered much of the region’s coastal sea surface have wilted in intolerably warm and nutrient-poor water.”
    http://e360.yale.edu/features/as-oceans-warm-the-worlds-giant-kelp-forests-begin-to-disappear

    Governments the world over are failing to balance budgets and will continue to because, they suffer from the same delusion of infinite growth solving all problems when in fact, it is what causes them.
    It is no surprise to me that debt and deficit continues. It is a consequence of the absurd growth ideology that survives, temporarily only, on the back of fiat currency creation and increasing debts.

  50. Harquebus

    I am often accused of wanting a collapse of civilization. This is not true. I am however, willing to accommodate an economic collapse because, at this stage, it appears to be the only thing that can save the natural world on which, we depend for our survival. High unemployment and reduced consumption is a must and the growth economy and bloated billionaires needing it be damned.
    If we do not make economic and population growth uncool, collapse will be total.

    “In 1989, the UN issued a warning that we had only ten years to address global warming before irreversible tipping points start kicking in.”
    “For a long time, we have needed to change our lifestyles and that, for most people, is a red line area.”
    “And so we continue to build more runways and roads, drill for more oil, burn more forests for palm oil plantations and clear the rainforests for agriculture and logging, despite the fact that these massive environmental problems are no longer a theory but are staring us in the face. But we keep on driving and keep on flying and keep on buying things we don’t need from halfway across the globe without the slightest thought that all this will kill our children.”
    “That people are generally not in the least interested in the environment that keeps them alive is borne out by the derisory vote Greens get – around 2% support except where they campaign strongly on non-environmental issues.”
    https://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2017/11/21/brace-for-impact/

    Tax free havens of the future so long as one can afford the rent or the purchase and upkeep.
    “By 2020, the first floating city is expected to emerge in the Pacific Ocean, and life on it will be drastically different than life on land.”
    “The total cost of building the offshore utopia is estimated to be around $167 million. Still, it could prove a worthy undertaking — especially if it frees humans from the rule of countries’ governments.”
    http://www.trueactivist.com/worlds-first-floating-city-to-launch-in-pacific-ocean-by-2020-and-heres-how-it-will-look/

    “”As long as there was still ice there to be melted, it kept the temperature of the atmosphere and the temperature of the ocean at about zero degrees Celsius [32 degrees Fahrenheit],” Wadham explains. “That prevented warm air from wafting over Greenland, which it’s now free to do, and it prevented warm water from melting the subsea permafrost, which it is now doing. So, it was performing two very useful functions, both of which have now stopped.””
    https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-11-18/melting-polar-ice-poses-serious-global-risk

    “First, no politician wants to tell his electorate that growth is over (even in countries where, very clearly, prosperity is now in decline). Second, policymakers prepared to invite ridicule by denying the reality of climate change are thin on the ground.
    Accordingly, “sustainable development” has become a political article of faith. The approach seems to be to assume that sustainable development is achievable, and use selective data to prove it.”
    “The cost of household essentials has outpaced both incomes and general inflation over the past decade. Levels of both household and government debt are far higher now than they were back in 2006. Perhaps worst of all – ‘though let’s not tell the voters’ – pension provision has been all but destroyed.”
    “This relationship between borrowing and growth makes it eminently reasonable to conclude that much of the apparent “growth” has, in reality, been nothing more substantial than the spending of borrowed money. Put another way, we have been boosting “today” by plundering “tomorrow”, hardly an encouraging practice for anyone convinced by “sustainable development” (or, for that matter, sustainable anything).”
    “A (slightly) more comforting interpretation might that the super-heated rate of borrowing, and the seemingly disastrous rate at which pension capability is being destroyed, might well crash the system before our obsession with ‘growth at all costs’ can inflict irreparable damage to the environment.”
    https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/113-death-of-a-high-fashion-model/

    “But the new evidence says that once a certain temperature threshold is reached, ice shelves of glaciers that extend into the sea will melt from both above and below, paving the way for ice-cliff instability to do its ultimate job of demolition.”
    “Without fast and structural changes in the political economy of the world system, some of humanity (or all of it) has little future left.”
    http://www.flassbeck-economics.com/the-doomsday-glacier-problem/

    “Although culturally controversial, the scientific half of this position is fairly well-established. Several years ago, scientists showed that having a child, especially for the world’s wealthy, is one of the worst things you can do for the environment.”
    “The importance of this argument for family size is obvious. If having one fewer child reduces one’s contribution to the harms of climate change, the choice of family size becomes a morally relevant one.”
    “As we face the very real prospect of catastrophic climate change, difficult — even uncomfortable — conversations are important. Yes, we should discuss the ethics of making babies with care and respect; but we should discuss it.”
    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/science-proves-kids-are-bad-earth-morality-suggests-we-stop-ncna820781

    “We knew we were at risk for years in prison. But the nation needs to wake up now to what’s coming our way if we don’t reduce emissions boldly and fast; business as usual is now genocidal.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/24/oil-pipeline-valve-turner-protest-climate-change

  51. Miriam English

    …and Harquebus’ record is stuck again. So that means your memory extends for how long before you go repeating the same disproved opinions? What, a week? A few days? Or does it take just a few hours for all traces of previous information to evaporate and you go back to the same old Groundhog Day doom rant?

    I’ll give a quick recap on the lessons you still refuse to learn:

    Raising the standard of living is already reducing population growth in much of the world, and even actual population numbers in some places. It will reduce population in the poorest parts if we allow standards of living to rise there too. Our best hope for the future lies in helping the worst off. The collapse you keep saying we need would undo that and set off a new round of accelerating population growth.

    Carbon dioxide emissions are being reduced by renewable energy as they displace fossil fuels. Screw the politicians. Ordinary people and businesses are making the change without them. But politicians are, slowly, following. In about a decade fossil fuels will be sidelined if things continue the way they’re going — less if the politicians wake up and get their snouts out of the trough. (And you’re going to say your same old bullshit about renewables requiring fossil fuels, but who gives a flying fuck whether you ignore the facts? And the change is happening whether you like it or not.)

    Use of physical resources is limited, so building bigger and more can’t continue indefinitely, however growth can continue without limit in immaterial forms mostly via digital technology, such as knowledge and various artforms (writing, videos, 3D virtual worlds, music, and so on). Growth in such information technology (IT) is essentially unbounded. There are ways utilise physical resources to get more out of less too, using nanotechnology, efficiency, and recycling, and these are ramping up in response to dwindling resources and people’s concern for our world. They’re a great improvement upon the old, wasteful ways, but they are still bounded by physical limits, unlike IT.

    What exactly do you suggest we do H? Go back to an agrarian society? People won’t do that. Thank goodness! If they did, it would unleash your worst nightmare. Agrarian societies produce large families, accelerating population growth. Agrarian societies are the absolute worst at looking after nature. Conservation comes from the urban dwellers, so an agrarian society would utterly rape the country again. (Hint: Mesopotamia used to be a fertile, idyllic land until agrarian cultures stripped it of forests and turned the land to desert.) The wide, open spaces of country living are incredibly wasteful in almost all respects, whereas packing people densely into cities is far more efficient.

    Thank goodness you’re wrong H. And thank goodness the world is ignoring you and similar doomsayers. In your determined ignorance you’d happily destroy any chance at a safe future. Now, why don’t stop vomiting doom on us?

  52. Harquebus

    Jobs equals environmental destruction and job creation accelerates it.

    Miriam English.
    Dream on. I have explained the math to you more than once. When are you going to get it? Reality is going tbone you something fierce but, hey, that’s your choice. Convincing others to follow your erroneous ways however, is not going to make things better. Just the opposite. It is your ignorance and hubris that is typical of that which is putting us in danger.
    Did you bother to read the excerpts that I provided to make it easier for you? Judging by your response, I would say not. Ignoring reality will not make it go away.

    What do I suggest we do? Go home, turn the lights off, stop making babies and make do or do without.
    Power down.

    “We normally assume that anything that creates jobs is a good thing, but is it, really?”
    “The common political mantra that higher GDP creates social benefits by lifting all boats has become suspect since the 2008 recession and ‘recovery.'”
    “Our institutions and financial systems are based on expectations of continued GDP growth perpetually into the future. No serious government or institution entity forecasts the end of growth this century (at least not publicly).”
    “In 1930 John Maynard Keynes predicted that wealth would increase 600% in the next century (which is only 15 years away) and because of this wealth, people would only need to work 15 hours per week. He was right about our wealth increase, but paradoxically, we are working longer hours than ever! Because socially, everyone who isn’t a criminal is supposed to have a job and endure roughly equivalent inconvenience. Any segment of society which went to a 15-hour work week would be treated as mooching freeloaders, and be pelted by cucumber slices and worse.”
    “It may be reasonable to reflect that during this same period, sometimes called The Great Acceleration, the planet has been largely laid to waste, a mass extinction has accelerated, the seas have been depopulated of most fish, and the systems which sustain large complex life on earth have been progressively compromised. Yet we continue to grow the scale of the heat engine to accomplish the primary objective of the modern human economy: to maximize dollars and jobs.”
    “And the side-effect of this process is all around us. Mountains of waste, acidified oceans, altered climates, pollution, mass extinctions, and mischief.”
    “Well, you already know that our amoeba-like heat-engine of an economy is wrecking the earth, acidifying the seas, melting the polar caps, causing what could become the greatest mass extinction in 65 million years, and throwing our future into doubt.
    But at least we have our good ol’ energy slaves to continue creating GDP. Right?”
    “Since your authors have been alive, humans have used more energy than in the entire 200,000 year history of homo sapiens.
    We are just now passing through the all-time peak of liquid hydrocarbon availability, which is the chief driver of our economies due to its special attributes.”
    “Each year we need growth in a household/city/state/nation/world to service and pay off monetary loans that were created previously. No serious government or institutional body has plans for anything other than continued growth into the future. Growth requires resource access and affordability but starts first with population.”
    “So, right as our energy slaves are about to start going away forever, leaving 7-10 billion humans without the things they have come to take for granted, our nations have decided the answer is to make more babies! Yep, to raise GDP you need more demand for toys, diapers, teachers, etc… more jobs, because more jobs means more transactions which means more GDP! More GDP means “growth” so growth is good!
    “There’s no way, even in principle, for “growth” such as we’ve recently seen to continue indefinitely, and considerable data points to it ending quite soon. GDP will begin a long decline because it’s tied to finite realities in the physical world.”
    http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2017/11/why-do-we-need-jobs-if-we-can-have.html

    “Economic growth will destroy everything. There’s no way of greening it – we need a new system.”
    “But growth must go on: this is everywhere the political imperative. And we must adjust our tastes accordingly. In the name of autonomy and choice, marketing uses the latest findings in neuroscience to break down our defences. Those who seek to resist must, like the Simple Lifers in Brave New World, be silenced – in this case by the media.”
    “How, in a world in which everyone is supposed to aspire to high incomes, can we avoid turning the Earth, on which all prosperity depends, into a dust ball?”
    “In seeking to defend the living world from the maelstrom of destruction, we might believe we are fighting corporations and governments and the general foolishness of humankind. But they are all proxies for the real issue: perpetual growth on a planet that is not growing.”
    “When you hear that something makes economic sense, this means it makes the opposite of common sense. Those sensible men and women who run the world’s treasuries and central banks, who see an indefinite rise in consumption as normal and necessary, are beserkers, smashing through the wonders of the living world, destroying the prosperity of future generations to sustain a set of figures that bear ever less relation to general welfare.
    Green consumerism, material decoupling, sustainable growth: all are illusions, designed to justify an economic model that is driving us to catastrophe. The current system, based on private luxury and public squalor, will immiserate us all: under this model, luxury and deprivation are one beast with two heads.
    We need a different system…”
    http://www.monbiot.com/2017/11/24/everything-must-go/

    “Because their reproductive organs are still developing, fetuses, infants, and children are especially vulnerable to the synthetic estrogen BPA. This means pregnant women and children should reduce exposure to BPA. Reproductive-aged women should also be wary of BPA.”
    “A study by the United States Environmental Protection Agency conducted in 1982 found that 100% of Americans tested had Styrene in their fat tissue.”
    “If you drink water from plastic bottles, you have a high probability of drinking estrogenic compounds.” — Professor Martin Wagner
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-kaas-boyle/plastic-is-food-poisoning_b_5219189.html

  53. Freethinker

    Miriam, quote: Raising the standard of living is already reducing population growth in much of the world, and even actual population numbers in some places. It will reduce population in the poorest parts if we allow standards of living to rise there too. Our best hope for the future lies in helping the worst off. The collapse you keep saying we need would undo that and set off a new round of accelerating population growth.
    End of quote,

    I agree with your views as along as it is sustainable. and with equality
    If you believe that life standard equality it is part of human right, how do you think that the planet will be if the 7.5 billion of population will living and consuming like people that live in USA, Canada, Australia to name few of the “lucky countries”?
    I would like to know that, how you are going about it, restrict our consumerism in the developed countries and increase the one in the 3rd world countries to bring it to an equal sustainable “growth”?
    We cannot keep growing, growth has to stop like stop in any living thing and development have to start and as long as we have greed and the ones at the top in standard of living are not prepared to sacrifice their need to consume to allow others to have a sustainable fair share we will not get out of this.

    I just wonder if this is not part of what Harquebus is trying to say. I would like see his comments about this.

  54. jimhaz

    [ Raising the standard of living is already reducing population growth in much of the world]

    No it is not. It is just slowly reducing the rate of growth after rates of growth exponentially increased over the last 100 years – and what makes up for the decreasing number of children per household – what fills in the “what to do without more kids” vacuum – materialism and consumption.

    That science can cure this is much like the Christian loaves and fishes fantasy. Or for that matter the great worldwide equality religious fantasy of the left.

    Time to be selfish squirrels – because the Winter of Our Discontent is Coming.

  55. Miriam English

    Freethinker, absolutely right. While raising the standard of living of the poorest it would be catastrophic to have them live the same kind of wasteful, overindulgent lives that we in Australia and USA live.

    Thankfully it isn’t really that much of a problem. The excessive lives of most people in Australian and USA actually degrades their lives. Their quality of life would improve by consuming less and doing so much more efficiently. That kind of lifestyle could be extended to the rest of the world. That would be the best solution, but we don’t even need to go that far. All we need is sufficient food, minimal luxury (dry, comfortable living quarters, warm in winder and cool in summer), information/education, and a secure future. These are much easier to achieve with hardly any expenditure of money or resources.

    There is already enough food to feed everyone if we in the First World didn’t waste most of it. The distribution problem is relatively easy to solve.

    New systems of architecture, especially those using new materials like plastics and foam concrete, and using underground structures can create dwellings that are astonishingly efficient, not only in terms of initial materials, but in ongoing energy use.

    Just today I made a $10 donation to the Internet Archive for their fundraising drive. They’re currently building an online library to make books available to everyone. They already make thousands of electronic books, magazines, radio and TV programs and even old movies available for free. That’s in addition to the Wayback Machine that archives the world’s internet pages, which is very useful in these days when government hides inconvenient data. Wikipedia is another project to make information freely available to everyone. Project Gutenberg and Gutenberg Australia make tens of thousands of books available to anyone for free. Librivox makes audiobooks available for free, narrated by volunteers. There are now free online university courses and the texts that support them, online lectures on YouTube, Vimeo, and others. It almost doesn’t matter that education is being priced beyond people’s reach. The new wave of information is bringing it to everyone… for free.

    A secure future requires a change in the thinking of politicians. We need Social Security programs everywhere. Even better would be universal basic income. This will come. First we need to get rid of right-wing economics and the puritanical thinking that drives it, along with religion that’s behind much extreme poverty. That change is happening right now and accelerating.

    I agree that physical growth is unsustainable, but non-physical growth can continue without limit. I have written 6 books. They’re online for anybody to download and read, for free. If one person downloads copies of my books to read, it uses the same amount of physical resources as a thousand people downloading them. Electronic books can be duplicated at effectively zero cost. I’ve put some of my drawings and paintings online too. It’s the same with them — no canvas or ink needed. It’s the same with music, with information, with mathematics, with circuit diagrams, and computer programs. Information is a whole new thing. It isn’t subject to the same restrictions of old physical goods. An information economy can keep growing. The beauty of that is that it provides some relief for the economy so that it doesn’t have to stagnate and collapse with the coming scarcity of materials.

    I should point out also that the resource crisis is a bit overblown by people like Harquebus. The materials haven’t actually gone — they’re still here. Mostly they’re in rubbish dumps which will soon be incredibly valuable places when the cost of getting at wild resources exceeds the cost of recycling them.

  56. Miriam English

    Harquebus, yeah, I didn’t think you’d read it. Wrap yourself in your insulating cloak of doom and ignore the world.

  57. Miriam English

    Harquebus, yeah, I didn’t think you’d read it.

  58. Harquebus

    Freethinker
    In regards to your previous comment. I totally agree.
    Getting the privileged to give up their thieving ways ain’t gonna be easy because, most aspire to one of them.

  59. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Once more you have displayed your ignorance. It takes far more energy to recycle than it does to exploit the resource from its natural origin. That’s why we do it that way.

    There are some things that you will not find in a garbage dump.

    “Phosphorus has contributed to a global surplus of food that has fed millions. Unfortunately, phosphorus, like many other important resources such as water or energy, is limited. There is no replacement for phosphorus, and without its role in fertilizer, millions will go hungry.”
    http://hir.harvard.edu/article/?a=13155

    “An information economy can keep growing.”
    No it can’t. It still requires energy, complex electronics and hardware.

    “Harquebus, yeah, I didn’t think you’d read it.”
    Read what?

  60. Miriam English

    H, again with the relentless doom. You didn’t notice that I said, Mostly they’re in rubbish dumps which will soon be incredibly valuable places when the cost of getting at wild resources exceeds the cost of recycling them.”

    Note I said “mostly“. Yeah phosphorus washes off into the sea, but it is concentrated again by living things there, for example algae. It isn’t lost. Note I also said that it’ll change when the price of the raw material exceeds recycling it. Try to comprehend. Don’t just rush to your doom-laden conclusions.

    I’m amazed that you so steadfastly misunderstand information technology.
    You’re mistaken. Read what I wrote and do try to think more carefully.

    As for getting the privileged to give up stuff, it’s already happening in increasing numbers, not only because they see the wisdom of sharing their good fortune and the admiration and kudos they receive for doing so, but also because they are able to see a messed up world doesn’t benefit them or their kids. Sure there are still the likes of the Koch brothers, but they’re a dying breed, increasingly isolated, and when the legal pendulum swings back they’ll be completely screwed.

  61. Miriam English

    H, I’ll give it one last shot.

    Alice has a tablet computer. She spends much of the day using it to look up things on Wikipedia, chat to her friends, browse facebook, and read AIMN. Bob tells her about Project Gutenberg, where she can get free ebooks. She delightedly finds the Anne of Green Gables books by Lucy Maud Montgomery that she so loved when she was a child and notices there are many more there than she ever read. She finds lots of other wonderful books too, such as Mary Shelley’s science fiction books — not only Frankenstein, but lesser known works of hers such as The Invisible Girl and The Last Man. Soon she’s downloaded oodles of ebooks and has reading material enough for months.

    One night when she’s getting ready to sit in bed to continue her reading she thinks about the energy and materials involved in this. She would have been using the tablet anyway, so it isn’t costing more energy, and she hasn’t needed to add more memory to her tablet computer because ebooks take up so little room. She realises that she is wealthier by about 100 new books, with almost instant access to a vast library of thousands more, but they haven’t cost her any more than if she didn’t have them.

    This is the beauty of information technology. We can increase, without practical limit, the knowledge and art in the world without adding to the resources required beyond an unchanging base level. The books, music, information, and so on can multiply at an insane rate, but the energy and resources needed to sustain that don’t increase.

    In fact, as systems become more efficient even less energy and physical resources will be used. My tablet computer uses a tiny fraction of the energy and physical resources my big desktop computer does, yet it is comparable in capabilities.

    Do you understand now?

  62. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    The beauty of fossil fuels is, it enables us to build tablet computers.
    Like most, I do not support the use of fossil fuels but, very few understand what eliminating them from everyday use entails.
    I recommend that you read Ugo Bardi’s article in the cassandralegacy link that I posted earlier today. Unlike the excerpt that I included, it mentions the role of fossil fuels over 30 times.

  63. Miriam English

    H, [sigh] round and round we go without you conceding anything (of course, can’t lose an argument to a woman now — heaven forbid)… and you’ll have forgotten all the points shortly anyway to repeat them over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over…

    Harquebus, you know full well it doesn’t matter where the energy comes from to make a tablet computer. Electrons from renewable energy are exactly the same as electrons from fossil fuels. That’s a lazy argument to make. Methinks you’re trying to distract.

  64. Miriam English

    H, it just occurred to me that I’m crediting you with the ability to understand, but maybe I’m overestimating your mental powers and you just can’t comprehend.

  65. Harquebus

    “Electrons from renewable energy are exactly the same as electrons from fossil fuels. ”
    As they are throughout the universe. Those attached to the nuclei of fossil fuel atoms do not directly power computers.
    What does matter in your argument is, where does the energy to build renewable energy devices come from? Not from renewable energy.
    I think that you are giving yourself too much credit. The only mental prowess that you have overestimated is your own. You don’t bother to read anything that does not agree with your own warped sense of reality. It’s a bit rich then to accuse others of being lazy.

    So what did you think of the article posted on Ugo’s site? I thought that it was quite good.

  66. Miriam English

    Harquebus said, “where does the energy to build renewable energy devices come from? Not from renewable energy.”

    One horse says to another, “Who ever heard of a buggy pulling itself along? Not without a horse.”

    Yes, H. The energy to build these devices comes increasingly from renewable sources.

    I notice silence still on my nullification of all your points. Does this mean you concede that I’m right?
    (Of course not. You’ll never admit to anything that would undercut your fabulous doom.)

  67. Miriam English

    And still no understanding of how information economies work. [sigh]

  68. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    “The energy to build these devices comes increasingly from renewable sources.”
    Rubbish.
    Nullification? Ha! You really are deluded.
    I get the information economy thingy. It doesn’t exist and never will.

    FYI: I am actually trying to avoid doom and gloom and it is the likes of yourself that are urging it along.

    I’ll ask again. What did you think of the article posted on Ugo’s cassandralegacy site?

  69. Kronomex

    Harquebus, you have convinced me.

  70. Kronomex

    Harquebus, thank you for convincing me that you place your faith in fringe “science” and fringe “science” sites. Do you visit (or read articles and books) from well established science sites and publishers? Simple answer of yes or no with an example would be pleasant although I’m not holding my breath.

    Regarding Ugo, can you let us know where any of his works have been properly peer reviewed because I can’t find any mention of him outside of Cassandra’s Legacy which means he’s not part of the mainstream of science. Please don’t mention The Oil Drum as an example, it closed it’s doors about four years ago.

  71. Harquebus

    Kronomex

    Here’s the thing. I am trying to convince others that renewable energy is fringe science and yes, I do also read regular science sites. Here’s a few:
    newscientist.com
    eurekalert.org
    phys.org
    skepticalscience.com
    popsci.com.au

    Ugo Bardi (born May 23, 1952 in Florence[1]) is a professor in Physical Chemistry at the University of Florence
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugo_Bardi

    Ugo’s work focuses on promoting a sustainable transition to renewable energy on the basis of a quantitative energy yield analysis.”
    https://www.clubofrome.org/member/ugo-bardi/

    Ugo and I have clashed before over the EROEI of renewable energy. I have noticed lately that his advocation of renewable energy devices has decreased considerably. So has Robert Scribbler’s who, I have also clashed with. Actually, as far as I am aware, neither has done so for quite some time.

    Did you happen to read the article that Ugo published that I mentioned? If so, I am keen to hear your opinion.

    If it is not too much bother, which of the sites that I have linked to on this page do you consider to be fringe?

  72. Harquebus

    A few days ago I contemplated which of our many threats is our most immediate; climate change, economic, environment, political upheaval or resource depletion etcetera. The conclusion that I came to was ‘complacency’. One factor that appears to be a common. Whaddayano, jus’ today I read something that supports my conclusion.

    “As financial contraction is set to occur first, finance will be the primary driver to the downside for the next several years. After that, we will be dealing with energy crisis, other resource limits, limitations of carrying capacity and increasing geopolitical ramifications.”
    “This is the inevitable result of decades of ponzi finance, as our credit bubble expanded relentlessly, leaving us today with a giant pile of intertwined human promises which cannot be kept.”
    “Energy is the master resource – the capacity to do work. Our modern society is the result of the enormous energy subsidy we have enjoyed in the form of fossil fuels, specifically fossil fuels with a very high energy profit ratio (EROEI).”
    “The surplus energy, beyond that which has to be reinvested in future energy production, is rapidly diminishing.”
    “A plethora of energy fantasies is making the rounds at the moment. Whether based on unconventional oil and gas or renewables (that are not actually renewable), these are stories we tell ourselves in order to deny that we are facing any kind of future energy scarcity, or that supply could be in any way a concern.”
    “This is a vain attempt to deny the existence of non-negotiable limits to growth.”
    “We are poised to throw away what remains of our conventional energy inheritance chasing an impossible dream of perpetual energy riches, because doing so will be profitable for the few in the short term, and virtually no one is taking a genuine long term view.
    ” For a long time we have uploaded responsibility to larger scale organisational entities, but this has led to a dangerous level of complacency.
    “In the longer term, we need to position ourselves to reboot the system into something simpler, more functional and less extractive of the natural capital upon which we and subsequent generations depend.”
    https://www.theautomaticearth.com/2017/05/the-automatic-earth-primer-guide-2017/

    “Mountain ash trees that grew following the 1939 Black Friday bushfires are not yet old enough to bear hollows but are the right age to be logged.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/dec/01/victorian-logging-could-trigger-ecosystem-collapse-researchers-say

    “Sure, there are some places, like Japan, that have an imploding population, but in its entirety, overpopulation is a huge problem, and I believe that most of us aren’t aware of the magnitude of this problem, as well as how many of today’s issues are linked, some of which are listed below.”
    “If global warming remains on its upward path, by 2050 just 5% of Australia’s Great Barrier Reef – the world’s largest coral reef – will remain.”
    “In the snippet of time humans have inhabited this planet, we have caused an unfathomable amount damage and destruction to our one and only home.”
    https://thebranchingmind.com/2017/11/27/the-future-of-humanity-and-the-earth/

  73. Miriam English

    Speaking of not seeing the real world… you still haven’t noticed that the world you want will lead to even worse destruction.

    You genuinely think other people are not taking a long-term view and that most people are not worried about these things???? Try asking a few people what they actually think. You have a depressingly naïve and patronising attitude. Most people are freaked out about this. You don’t help. You make it worse. You cause paralysis. It’s a lucky thing that almost nobody listens to you. You distract from actual solutions. You are actually helping to cause exactly what you preach against. You never put forward any solutions. You just rant on and on about doom.

    As I’ve outlined many, many times before, there are plenty of solutions. Maybe if you talked about them people might have a little more patience for you.

    The only reason I persist in replying is that I don’t want people to be sucked into your vortex of despair.
    (I really need to write that article on solutions so that I can point people to it instead in reply you each time.)

  74. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Thanks once more for your response. Your time spent is appreciated. Really, I mean it.

    That said, you do not have a realistic appraisal of our situation. Offering up junk science and ignoring physical realities while dismissing out of hand unpalatable solutions is what is making matters worse. You are not doing the world any favors.

    Put up your solutions. I am sure that most will easily be shot down. Ultimately, there is one scatter gun that will bring ’em all down as well as a halt to our rampant environmental destruction and other fanciful ideas and solutions and that one is, the growing mountain of already unrecoverable global debt. The fuse is lit.

    That theautomaticearth article above is pretty good however, I know that you won’t read it because, your narcissistic attitude has closed your eyes and blocked your ears. It’s time to get real Miriam. Stubbornness will not make one resilient. It makes one brittle and you and most others are in for a big shock.

    Don’t take too long coming to your senses. We are already out of time.

    “Just three well-to-do gentlemen—Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg—have as much in their coffers as all the ordinary folk.”
    “The problem is universal. Everywhere, from the UK to Russia and from Brazil to Greece it’s the same: the state coffers are empty, politicians prescribe austerity for the people, while a few rich guys enjoy the fast growth of their untaxed capital.”
    “While the co-owner of Twitter has been subjected to daily beatings, the prime voice of liberal conscience, Tom Friedman of the New York Times, eulogised MBS as the bearer of progress.”
    “He kidnapped the Lebanese Prime Minister, placed him under arrest, took away his telephone and watch, forced him to read on TV a resignation letter composed by MBS people, – and the response of the world has been subdued. He bombed Yemen, causing hundreds of thousands to die of cholera and famine, and the world does not give a damn.”
    “The same media that overwhelms us with the flood of details and opinions in a case of human rights violations in Russia or China in this case shows off an Olympic indifference to the fate of the princes and billionaires, unjustly and arbitrarily arrested and tortured in a country of no constitution or Habeas Corpus. The United Nations joins in the conspiracy of silence.”
    http://www.unz.com/ishamir/the-dog-that-didnt-bark-2/

    “Slugs and snails overran fields after pesticides disappeared when the cash-strapped government reduced imports. Thieves forage by night and a “cemetery of tractors” waits for replacement parts that never arrive.”
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-12-01/fallow-fields-show-crisis-in-hungry-venezuela-s-heartland-farms

    “No matter how bad things become, only a few people will be ready to accept that economy it is not a good thing. We believe in the Economy, we do not discuss its existence, precisely as a religion does with God. Instead of an afterlife, we have a Money-God allowing us to do everything we want, or at least this is what we believe.”
    “Wealth is a relative term, it is something that can belong only to a few. I can be rich only if you are poor; wealth is a relation: there has to be poverty in order to have wealth.”
    “You can see how the Economy religion destroys everything: forest, seas, living species, ourselves and our infinite cultures existing over the whole planet. By now, realism would tell us that it is time to throw the Economy God into the wastebasket history and try to create a society which won’t imply such a despicable waste of energy and resources.”
    http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2017/12/a-religion-called-economy.html

    “Green and brown, it appears, are the new white across the southern European peaks as climate change, which historically has done its most noticeable damage closer to sea level, now reaches higher.”
    http://time.com/italy-alps-climate-change/

  75. Miriam English

    Yeah, you really mean it… my time is appreciated… you mean me, the “narcissist”?

    Do you even know what a narcissist is? Or do you simply use it as a quick and shallow insult? Anyone who knows me can assure you that I am poles away from being in love with myself. In fact my biggest flaw might be a fair amount of self-loathing. It’s one of the reasons I’m a hermit. But I am very confident in the scientific and technical knowledge I have. And unlike you I actually admit my errors and fix what I say when I find out I’m wrong.

    It’s ridiculous to say I offer up “junk science” when all you give is the opinions of people moaning about doom. When I talk about science or Kaye talks about maths you are generally quite baffled and surprisingly unable to grasp even relatively simple concepts. And you are annoyingly very quick to dismiss that which you don’t understand. You keep saying that you’re backed up by science, but you actually have astonishingly little understanding of science, and every time it’s pointed out to you how wrong your statements are you just ignore it, then later you simply repeat the same incorrect statements again. It’s exactly like trying to talk sense to a Mormon.

    The most annoying thing is that you assume that you are preaching some sort of gospel to the unknowing masses. The fact is, most people are aware of the problems facing us. You don’t need to keep the alarm blaring. I actually understand the problems more than you do. I know this because there are some problems that are worse than most of the ones you constantly prattle on about.

    The difference is that I’m also aware of solutions and regularly offer them up. I’m also involved in furthering many of the solutions myself.

    You never suggest any solutions. This is why you get up everybody’s nose. Just stop it with the stupid doom until you can actually have something useful to say.

  76. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Perhaps my intended slur went a bit too far and I can not go back and undo it so, I apologize.

    You don’t read the information that I provide so, you can not know what is in the links that I post which, also explains your ignorance.

    Kaye Lee mentioned once a thing called limit theory which, was new to me and after a cursory investigation, I don’t buy.
    You have mentioned the information economy which, I also had never heard of. After investigating that one, all I could do laugh. Another absurd non solution that can not exist and put up by you who, contrary to your claim, has no idea about the basic concepts and physical realities that are very soon going to crush your delusions.

    For you to say that I am “quite baffled and surprisingly unable to grasp even relatively simple concepts” is just delusional hypocrisy on your part. You haven’t got a clue because, like you said, you shut yourself away and completely ignore anything that does not conform to your blinkered world view.

    The truth is, it is you that is not offering up solutions.Your constant delivery of junk science and false hope only adds to complacency and delays us from doing what is required so, how ’bout you desist in spreading your B.S. and let those who have a better grasp of our situation get on with it.

    Wake up to yourself fool. You and your ilk are bringing about the very collapse that you falsely accuse me of wanting. That it might now be necessary for our survival we can thank the likes of you.

    “However, updated data inputs and modern computer modelling in recent years (particularly by Dr Graham Turner of the CSIRO in 2008 and 2014) showed that we are in reality closely tracking the standard model of the LtG, with industrial collapse and mass die-off due sooner rather than later. The future is now.”
    “Economists may beg to differ, however no economic mathematical model has ever been shown to accurately reflect the real world, nor ever consistently predict anything useful (unlike the LtG and other proven science based models), not least because of their hopelessly incomplete and deeply flawed ideological economic assumptions.”
    “Few commentators advocate voluntary energy descent, reduction of consumption or simplification of lifestyles, however those are essential strategies to reduce our footprint. Even fewer talk about population reduction.”
    http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-seneca-cliff-explained-as-network.html

    “But no matter what environmentalists do, our best efforts are insufficient. We’re losing badly, on every front. Those in power are hell-bent on destroying the planet, and most people don’t care.
    Frankly, I don’t have much hope. But I think that’s a good thing. Hope is what keeps us chained to the system, the conglomerate of people and ideas and ideals that is causing the destruction of the Earth.”
    “False hopes bind us to unlivable situations, and blind us to real possibilities.”
    https://orionmagazine.org/article/beyond-hope/

    “At some point, we are going to break the back of the camel with all this debt. Then we are going to find out how much debt we can pile on, and it’s not going to be pretty. Everybody is going to lose.”
    https://usawatchdog.com/mother-of-all-bubbles-too-big-to-pop-peter-schiff/

  77. Miriam English

    Wow, I’ve never met a more perfect example of the Dunning–Kruger effect.

    You can’t disbelieve mathematics. That’s just stupid.
    And to say the information economy can’t work when it has been doing so for decades is just insane.

    You pretend to apologise, but quickly descend into foaming at the mouth insults again. Such sincerity.

    And then to cap it all off you vomit more idiotic doom opinions again, as if they mean anything at all.

  78. Michael Taylor

    Wake up to yourself fool. You and your ilk are bringing about the very collapse that you falsely accuse me of wanting. That it might now be necessary for our survival we can thank the likes of you.

    Harquebus, seriously, do we have to put up with that rubbish again?

  79. Kaye Lee

    You don’t buy limit theory? Ummmmm, it’s provable. That’s like saying you don’t accept that 2+3=5

    A common example we use with the kids is a frog in the bottom of a well who jumps up the wall with every jump being half the remaining distance to the top. Theoretically he will never reach the top but he will get closer and closer every time. The limiting position is the height of the well.

    Or draw the graph of y=1/x . As x approaches infinity, y approaches zero. As x approaches zero y approaches infinity.

    We use it when we first start calculus to find the gradient of a curve at a given point. We take two points on the curve and draw a secant. We gradually bring the points closer together until the difference in the x values approaches zero.

    f'(x)= limit as h approaches zero of [f(x+h) – f(x)]/h

    Saying you don’t “buy” it is just silly. It’s a fact.

  80. Harquebus

    Michael Taylor
    It ain’t rubbish. It is an alternative opinion that disagrees with the tidal wave of ignorance that, left to run its inevitable course, will kill grandchildren prematurely. Are you happy with that? Climate feed back mechanisms already in play may have already locked this scenario in. We do not have time any more for nonsensical ideas.
    Delaying what is required worsens our situation and there is nothing even remotely similar to that which I propose even being contemplated let alone considered.

    What is required? Zero births for at least a decade. High unemployment and only a minimum number of essential jobs to be shared. Rations and quotas on everything, population control, closure of mines, etcetera.
    What is rubbish? Renewable energy, fiat currencies including modern monetary theory, economic growth, big batteries, information economy, infinite growth, etcetera.
    Many here wonder why am pessimistic about our future. Those advocating items on the rubbish list are to blame.

    Miriam English
    So, is it a fact or a theory? My ‘limited’ understanding is that the limits the ‘theory’ proposes applies to the “as h approaches zero” part.
    There is nothing silly about being skeptical. Awaiting your correction.

  81. Kaye Lee

    Righto. Tell me how you achieve “Zero births for at least a decade.”

  82. Kaye Lee

    To find the gradient of a line we take two points and use rise/run ie the change in the y values over the change in the x values. With a curve, that is constantly changing so what we do is add a small increment to the x value, h, and then examine what value rise/run approaches as h approaches zero ie as the two points coincide.

    Our points are [x, f(x)] and [(x+h), f(x+h)]

    The rise is f(x+h) – f(x)
    The run is (x+h) – x which equals h

    The gradient (or rate of change) is therefore [f(x+h) – f(x)]/h.

    Now what happens as we bring those two points closer and closer together until they coincide ie as h approaches zero.

    eg f(x)=x^2

    [(x+h)^2 – x^2]/h= [x^2 +2hx + h^2 – x^2]/h = (2hx+h^2)/h =2x+h

    As h approaches zero the gradient approaches 2x.

    the gradient of any point on the curve will be given by 2x ie 2 times the x value at that point

    This is called derivation from first principles if you want to examine it further

    And btw, when we say theorem in maths it means an incontrovertible fact.

  83. Michael Taylor

    Harquebus, it was not the facts that I was calling “rubbish,” it was your attitude towards other people.

  84. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    “Righto. Tell me how you achieve “Zero births for at least a decade.””
    You advocating it would be a step in the right direction.
    Thank you for that theory, theorem distinction.

    Michael Taylor
    I am losing patience. My apologies. Our descent is accelerating. I repeat what others here have said, we need a new system. Those things on my rubbish list have to be abandoned and realistic solutions offered. Those that I propose are unpalatable however, they are feasible. With the mindset that dominates this forum which, is in my opinion, a fairly representative one, they are very unlikely to eventuate.
    I am getting really worried hence my harsh and alarmist attitude. The truth is, I like most who hang out here and am just trying to raise awareness. Growth is killing us, it has to stop and renewable energy and fiat currencies are not the solution.

    Avagoodwun

    “Now more than ever, Gaea wants for us to cut the bullshit and speak out as if our lives depend on it. Because they do.” — Deb Ozarko

  85. corvus boreus

    Attention everybody!
    If you must insist on continuing to root, make sure you always bag any seed produced.

    Hope that helped.

  86. Kaye Lee

    I asked how we are to achieve zero births. I see you have no practical answer. Are you suggesting that we ban sex? That we sterilise a whole generation? That we enforce compulsory abortions? That we kill any children that are born? How do you practically hope to accomplish this?

    This is why you cannot be taken seriously. Your “solutions” are not possible.

  87. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    We’ve been here before. You know, birth control, education, equal distribution of resources, the usual things. It isn’t going to happen because of attitudes. Population reduction and control is essential for any long term solution to ecological sustainability and yet, for as long as I and even longer for others that have been advocating it, there has been nay sayers like yourself saying for whatever reason that, it can’t or shouldn’t be done. Doing nothing is a solution in itself but, must we let it get to that?

    There is a pool of talent in this forum which, in my opinion, is being wasted. Jus’ my opinion of course. With the realization that renewable energy and fiat currencies are both absurdities then, who knows, real sustainability discussions might ensue.

  88. Rapideffect

    @ Harquebus

    When people are unwilling to accept the facts, it’s quite clear that nothing will change.

    If 20% (approximately) of all energy consumed globally is electricity, how can renewable energy power 100% of the globe??

    Electric cargo ship (ironic it is used to ship coal):

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-11/14/content_34511312.htm

    Electric trucks:

    http://energyskeptic.com/2016/diesel-finite-where-are-electric-trucks/

    Limitations of current battery technology when used for trucks:

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/acsenergylett.7b00432

  89. Kaye Lee

    And as you have been shown a thousand times, fertility rates automatically decline when we empower and educate women and lift them out of poverty. If we keep girls in school, if we employ them, they tend to breed later and have fewer children. The effect of that is cumulative. If we give them control over their own reproductive health through access to contraception or abortion, births decrease without having to impose any form of regulation.

    Global fertility rates are in general decline and this trend is most pronounced in industrialized countries, especially Western Europe, where populations are projected to decline dramatically over the next 50 years.

    In 2017, the fertility rate in Singapore was estimated to be at 0.83 children per woman, making it the lowest fertility rate worldwide. 2 is replacement. Anything less than 2 is population decline.

    Total fertility rates have decreased globally by about half since 1960.

  90. townsvilleblog

    Unfortunately our refugees are still breeding like rabbits and will outvote us in decades to come.

  91. Kaye Lee

    I suspect your views are more informed by your racism than by fact townsvilleblog

  92. Michael Taylor

    My mother’s family were refugees from the Middle East, hence I find your comment most offensive.

  93. Miriam English

    Harquebus:
    …still shouting delusional opinions of doom as if they are fact
    …still denying anything that might prevent his cherished doom from occurring
    …still believing nobody else sees the problems (even though we all do)
    …still promoting the problem as the “solution” (collapse and totalitarian rule)
    …still refusing to understand any actual solutions
    …still reflexively dismissing real science as fake.

    I’ve noticed one small change though. He now concedes that education and making birth control available will help, though he acts as though this is a radical proposition that nobody else accepts, when if fact he has come very late to that party. Even then he imposes impossible restrictions upon it: zero births for a decade. This ensures that it won’t put his doom at risk and that nobody else will agree with him (he must always stand alone as the chosen one with the divine message). It also leaves the door open for his punitive totalitarian “solution”.

    He thinks, “You have to listen to my holy message, and if you don’t you all deserve to die horribly”.

    But humanity can change course remarkably quickly, and is currently doing so.
    – Renewable energy and efficiency are solving the energy problems.
    – Automation and artificial intelligence (AI) are solving the ageing population problems that are resulting from the lowered birthrate.
    – The information economy is increasingly diverting capitalism from manufacturing physical goods to providing immaterial goods, and efficiency is creating the remaining physical goods with less waste.
    – efficiency in production, distribution, and use of food is reducing waste and making food available to more people.
    – As people become more cultured and less aggressive they respect the “natural” world and each other more.

    All this feels slow, but we are in the middle of radical changes happening at unprecedented speed. Of course it could always move faster, with corrupt politicians and businessmen dragging their feet, but even so, in just a couple of decades we have gone from virtually 100% fossil fuels to in some places as much as 50% renewable energy, with most of that change in the last few years. Population growth is slowing all around the world, and reversing is some countries. These changes are accelerating.

    Will we cut greenhouse emissions and population growth sufficiently, while boosting efficiency in food production and distribution enough to avoid the dangers visible to anybody who has eyes to see? Nobody knows. (Certainly Harquebus has no clue because he closes his eyes to any possible solutions.) All we can do is continue to work towards a better future and push our stupid politicians to get their snouts out of the trough and get on with the job.

  94. helvityni

    Shame on you townsvilleblog.

    I’m not a refugee, and I did not come here for a better life, I came here because I married a Dutch-born Australian whose family came here for a better life from the war-torn Europe…. Parents went back to Holland, their kids stayed here…

    I just heard top news from about my old country Finland: it’s supposed to be the best governed country in the world…

  95. Miriam English

    townsvilleblog, you really need to stop listening to the radio, watching TV, and reading newspapers. The mainstream media bend the mind. They’ve become extremely good at it. Most Australians are not stupid by nature, but the mainstream media work very hard at making them so. Murdoch’s media, and in particular, Fox, has been shown to make people more stupid, less informed, and more angry.

    The actual situation as regards refugees is quite different from what the mainstream media would have you think. As an example of how completely wrong the horrible right-wing media get things, they constantly bray that immigrants steal jobs from locals, when the truth is the opposite: A Bitter Pill for Far Right: Europe’s Muslim Immigrants create Jobs, boost Economy.

    Decades ago I was chatting with a social scientist from Canberra who had at that time recently completed a project following and collating the effect on Australia of immigrants. He found that most immigrants quickly adapted to Australian society and adopted the way of life here. Some found it difficult to adapt, but their children easily did. The most interesting thing was that they were net creators of jobs because they were generally much more motivated than we who were born here. I’ve met highly literate scientists who worked as manual laborers (picking strawberries) because their East European qualifications were not recognised here.

    Many refugees are engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers because ordinary people can’t afford to pay for a boat trip to Australia. The poor people generally have to stay behind and die in the atrocities our refugees escape. The well-educated come to here in an attempt to survive and restart their lives. And many of us here in Australia — to our eternal shame — treat them as ignorant savages.

  96. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    Thank you for reminding me. You might not have noticed that I included “education” and “equal distribution of resources” in my previous response.
    “Total fertility rates have decreased globally by about half since 1960”
    Global population in 1960 was 3,033,212,527. Less than half than what it is today. I think that more than compensates for the 50% reduction in fertility rates. You’re the mathematician, you tell me.

    Miriam English
    I have always advocated better education and birth control. How can one support population control and not support birth control?
    I do not cherish doom and you are full of it.
    “imposes impossible restrictions upon it: zero births for a decade.”
    “impossible restrictions” What? Zero births is, in my opinion, required. I have never expected it to eventuate.
    Renewable energy and efficiency are not solving the energy problems.
    The information economy is just another of your absurdities.

    The solutions that you put forward are not solutions. They are typical of that which comes from those who have no understanding of complex supply chains nor any comprehension of the role that energy and specifically diesel has in sustaining us and maintaining the supply chains on which we are totally dependent.

    “most interesting thing was that they were net creators of jobs”
    Here’s another thing. I am the only one calling for job destruction. The environmental damage that job creation causes gives a whole new meaning to “working yourself to death”.
    As the mindset that everyone must have a job and that our population must increase is set to continue for the foreseeable future, I do not expect my pessimism to diminish anytime soon.

  97. Kaye Lee

    Could you tell me how having more teachers or nurses or aged care workers or child care workers destroys the environment?

    Could you tell me how employing people for, say. mine rehabilitation or tree planting destroys the environment?

    Are people who are employed building more energy efficient housing destroying the environment?

    How about our artists and musicians and poets? Are they also destroying the environment?

    What about our researchers who are developing plants that are pest and drought resistant?

    Am I destroying the environment as I write about the urgent need to take action?

    You are most definitely NOT the only one who recognises the problem.

    You refuse to accept that improvements are worthwhile. You are dreadfully stuck in a rut that you have dug so deep you can’t see what is going on.

    eg In September, a Chinese official told the audience at an auto forum in Tianjin that the government is working on a timetable to end “production and sales of traditional energy vehicles,” i.e., gasoline and diesel cars, according to accounts from the Xinhua News Agency. Regulators have begun the “relevant research,” and the policy will be implemented “in the near future.” This is the world’s largest car market — responsible for around 30 percent of global passenger vehicle sales — announcing an imminent end to fossil fuel cars.

    China is only the latest country to announce its intention to phase out the production and sale of gas and diesel vehicles altogether.

    Last year, the Dutch parliament voted through a motion to end all gas and diesel car sales by 2025 (it still has to go through the Dutch senate).
    In June, India announced that it would end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2030.
    In June, Norway agreed to end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2025. (Norway leads the world in EVs — almost 40 percent of its newly registered vehicles were hybrid, electric, or hydrogen in 2017.)
    In July, France announced it would end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2040.
    In July, Britain announced it would end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2040.
    In August, German Chancellor Angela Merkel hinted that her country would follow suit. “I cannot name an exact year yet,” she said, “but the approach is right, because if we quickly invest in more charging infrastructure and technology for electric cars, a general changeover will be structurally possible.”
    In September, the Scottish government announced it would phase out gas and diesel cars by 2032.

  98. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee

    “Could you tell me how having more teachers or nurses or aged care workers or child care workers destroys the environment?”
    Transport and increased consumption. What you are missing is that, reducing the population will reduce the need for all of these. That we should require more is an indication that we are not doing what is required. Also, what I stated earlier was, “a minimum number of essential jobs to be shared.”

    “Could you tell me how employing people for, say. mine rehabilitation or tree planting destroys the environment?”
    I would say that these are essential.
    5: Plant lots and lots of trees. Massive scale reforestation will help the climate, rainfall and be a valuable renewable resource for future generations.

    “Are people who are employed building more energy efficient housing destroying the environment?”
    Building new housing requires timber, steel, concrete, bricks, fittings etcetera, all consuming resources, many of which are non renewable.
    Again, that we should require more when, reducing populations will eliminate the need for new housing. It will also help by reducing the need for infrastructure.

    “Am I destroying the environment as I write about the urgent need to take action?”
    When you advocate counter productive action, as you do, most definitely.

    Electric cars, ha! Electric vehicles come with their own heavy environmental costs. They are another delusion heralded by those who will do anything, say anything and believe anything that they think will allow them to continue their gathering practices at the local shop rather that accept that, serious lifestyle changes must be made.

    You are doing a Miriam. Taking me out of context in an attempt to discredit me.
    There is no way around it Kaye Lee. Physics rules and sooner or later, we are all going to have to either obey them or lose everything.

  99. Kaye Lee

    When you say “physics rules” what exactly do you mean – you think vectors are cool? Or is it just like all the other meaningless phrases that you repeat ad infinitum?

    Miriam is a valued contributor here who makes a shit load more sense than you do. You do a damn fine job of discrediting yourself by saying ridiculous things and by pretending that you know more than the experts. Your arrogant dismissal of scientific discoveries, research and technological advances shows how unwilling you are to give up a narrative you decided on a long time ago. No new information will ever permeate your hunkered down position.

  100. Michael Taylor

    Kaye, I think that Harquebus is the modern-day equivalent of Burke and Wills.

    Burke and Wills perished in the desert during what the local Aborigines considered to be a ‘bumper year’ as far as food availability was concerned. The crops were good, so to speak.

    Burke and Wills died without food or water. Legend has it (passed down in local oral stories) that they refused to listen to the Aborigines.

    They didn’t have to perish. Food and water was available … but they were too stubborn to see it.

  101. Jack straw

    Michael in other words they were flat earth people.

  102. Miriam English

    Harquebus, the reason I say that you want doom is that you are so emphatically unwilling to see genuine solutions. You automatically dismiss anything that might prevent doom, wrongly calling it “junk science” (your latest favorite term).

    Another thing that makes it look like to desire doom is that when pressed for solutions you simply repackage doom as the solution itself. You seem to think that attaching other impossible conditions (such as ceasing reproduction for a decade) distracts from this and makes you sound more reasonable. It doesn’t. It makes it clearer than ever that you want doom. “Oh well, if you can’t do this impossible thing then you all deserve doom.” You see how it sounds?

    You repeatedly present doomsayer opinion as if it was anything more than mere opinion. Yet when presented with actual science you dismiss it out of hand as fake, similar to how the climate change denialists do.

    Yes, there are great problems out there. Yes, they are major challenges and scary threats. Everybody here agrees with that. But there are solutions, and they are being frantically worked on by enormous numbers of people. I’ve enumerated some of them ad nauseum already.

    Probably the most important solution has the focus of vast resources now: uplifting the poorest women in order to hasten the decline in birthrate, and soon, the actual population number.

    Another of the most pressing problems, climate change, is being attacked by using renewable energy instead of fossil fuels, along with the realisation that efficiency can let us have luxurious lives without using insane amounts of energy and materials.

    You keep saying that renewable energy can’t work, relying on an old paper by biased sources using selectively biased information that was out-of-date when they wrote it. When the paper was carefully and thoroughly discredited you completely ignored that and continue to tout it as if nothing has changed. But not only was the paper wrong when it was written, it is even more wrong now as renewables and their manufacture have become increasingly efficient.

    Why don’t you want genuine solutions? Why are you so eager to dismiss actual work by vast numbers of real scientists and engineers as fake? Can you see why it looks very much as if you look forward to doom?

  103. Miriam English

    Michael, often when I post (every time lately) I get the response back from your server:

    Bad Request
    Your browser sent a request that this server could not understand.
    Size of a request header field exceeds server limit.

    This happens even when I try to access the page without my posted comment number as the hash-separated field at the end of the address.

    That is, instead of
    https://theaimn.com/completely-totally-mercy-environment/#comment-584137
    I try to load
    https://theaimn.com/completely-totally-mercy-environment/
    though
    https://theaimn.com/
    still works.

    Weirdly, clicking on the righthand column link to my just-posted comment loads the page properly. (I wonder if it lets me edit it…)

    I’ve been using Firefox 25.6.0 for ages. When I check exactly the same address using a different browser (I keep several on my computer) it works without problem and I find that my comment went through without difficulty (but of course am unable to edit it in the different browser as it doesn’t have access to the other browser’s cookies).

  104. Miriam English

    Nope, can’t access the page from that link. I get the “Bad Request” message. But only that page. I wonder if it might have something to do with the edit timeout.

  105. Miriam English

    Yep, I think it’s something to do with the edit timeout. After 5 minutes (when my edit time has expired) I’m able to load the page without problems.

  106. Michael Taylor

    Hi Miriam, I’ll get our web host to look into that. Bear with us.

  107. Miriam English

    No worries. I’ll koala with you. 🙂 (Sorry, stupid pun.)
    I wonder if it’s happening to anyone else…

  108. Miriam English

    uh oh. Now it’s happened even when I went to an AIMN page I hadn’t previously visited.

  109. Harquebus

    “99% of Rhinos gone since 1914.
    97% of Tigers gone since 1914.
    90% of Lions gone since 1993.
    90% of Sea Turtles gone since 1980.
    90% of Monarch Butterflies gone since 1995.
    90% of Big Ocean Fish gone since 1950.
    80% of Antarctic Krill gone since 1975.
    80% of Western Gorillas gone since 1955.
    60% of Forest Elephants gone since 1970.
    50% of Great Barrier Reef gone since 1985.
    40% of Giraffes gone since 2000.
    30% of Marine Birds gone since 1995.
    70% of Marine Birds gone since 1950.
    28% of Land Animals gone since 1970.
    28% of All Marine Animals gone since 1970.
    97% – Humans & Livestock are 97% of land-air vertebrate biomass.”
    Source: https://lokisrevengeblog.wordpress.com/

    “North Atlantic right whales are facing a severe threat of extinction after this year saw the death of 17 of the species, leaving their numbers dwindling at around 450 individuals in the wild.”
    http://www.ibtimes.com/right-whales-brink-extinction-after-number-plunges-450-2626788

    (From my archive)

    Hope is dead.
    “Hope, a white rhinoceros who became the face of anti-poaching groups after surviving a brutal attack last year, has died aged seven.”
    “Wandering alone in the bush for days, deeply hurt and with half her face hacked off, she survived against all odds.”
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/hope-dies-in-2016

    “After being dragged onto the beach with the very ropes that had ensnared it, the video shows, the creature thrashes helplessly on the sand before being pulled further still from the only thing that could actually save it — the ocean.”
    http://undergroundreporter.org/narcissistic-selfie-culture-shark-death/

    Miriam English
    The solutions that you advocate are not solutions.
    “other impossible conditions (such as ceasing reproduction for a decade)”
    I have already responded to this and am not surprised that you “did not see” it.
    “relying on an old paper by biased sources ”
    This confirms that you do not bother read what I provide before criticizing.

    The debate continues.

    “There is obviously a natural tendency in Western societies, among policy makers and also in civil society, to wish that the transition to renewables can be done, that it can be done quickly, and that it can be done relatively painlessly”
    “Hence a favorable disposition towards scientists coming up with seemingly robust models showing that a clear and quick pathway towards 100% renewable energy exists, and proposing a roadmap to get there. This is somehow reassuring, and this is actually what a lot of us want to hear and to believe.”
    http://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-06-27/100-renewables-a-few-remarks-about-the-jacobsonclack-controversy/

    https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/609308/a-renewable-energy-champion-is-suing-his-scientific-critics/

    http://energyskeptic.com/2017/big-fight-21-top-scientists-show-why-jacobson-and-delucchis-renewable-scheme-is-a-delusional-fantasy/

    Something completely different that you might be interested in.
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/deep-learning-ai-future-fabio-ciucci/
    https://qz.com/1146753/ai-is-now-so-complex-its-creators-cant-trust-why-it-makes-decisions/

    “Scientists said this makes obtaining global temperature targets — such as the often-mentioned 1.5°C and 2°C limits — largely unattainable. The combination of the increase of CO2 and El Niño have driven atmospheric CO2 to levels not seen for 800,000 years.”
    “in the middle of November, 15,000 scientists provided a catastrophic “warning to humanity” about ACD impacts and overpopulation, and how humankind is facing an existential threat.”
    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42777-pollution-and-diseases-wreak-havoc-in-a-scorching-year-with-apocalyptic-melting-in-antarctica

    “Far from representing a way out of economic crisis, then, the shale oil and related tar sands booms are a symptom of an ongoing economic crisis, the end of which is nowhere in sight.”
    http://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-12-05/when-boom-is-bust/

    “The demise of oil based agriculture and large scale international shipping will reduce the number of people that our planet can support to a significantly lower number”
    http://theeasiestpersontofool.blogspot.com.au/2017/06/collapse-step-by-step-part-2-end-points.html

    “And what are recyclables with nowhere to go?
    “Right now, by definition, that material out there is garbage,” she says. “It has no value. There is no demand for it in the marketplace. It’s garbage.””
    https://www.npr.org/2017/12/09/568797388/recycling-chaos-in-u-s-as-china-bans-foreign-waste

    “Renewable energy sources gained two percent, to hit a record high. They accounted for 34 percent of overall energy consumption and nearly 39 percent of end use. However fossil fuel consumption increased even faster, by seven percent.”
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finland_torches_more_coal_overshoots_emissions_cap_by_a_million_tons/9971239

    “Mass starvation is humanity’s fate if we keep flogging the land to death.” — George Monbiot
    “By the middle of this century there will be two or three billion more people on Earth.”
    “The global land grab is mirrored by a global sea grab: small fishers are displaced by big corporations, exporting fish to those who need it less but pay more.”
    “Because there is not enough land to meet both need and greed, a global transition to eating animals means snatching food from the mouths of the poor. It also means the ecological cleansing of almost every corner of the planet.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/11/mass-starvation-humanity-flogging-land-death-earth-food

    “But first we cover the letter Glikson organized with Australian scientists to warn their Prime Minister about the super risks posed by climate change.”
    https://www.ecoshock.org/2017/12/can-humans-survive.html

    I have always stated that the aviation industry’s days are numbered.
    “Few people know how harmful it is to fly in planes, including scientists.”
    “It turns out that, hour for hour, there’s no better way to warm the planet than to fly.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/11/climate-scientists-emit-30000-tonnes-c02

    “The plausibility of the Paris Climate Agreement’s goals rested on what was lurking in the UN report’s fine print: massive negative emissions achieved primarily through BECCS—an unproven concept to put it mildly.”
    “BECCS is a conceptual tool, not an actual technology that anyone in the engineering world (apart from a few outliers like Karlsson) is championing.”
    https://www.wired.com/story/the-dirty-secret-of-the-worlds-plan-to-avert-climate-disaster/

    “Upon this handful of soil our survival depends. Husband it and it will grow our food, our fuel and our shelter and surround us with beauty. Abuse it and the soil will collapse and die, taking humanity with it.” Sanskrit text 1500BC.

  110. Harquebus

    “Scientists from University College London and the University of Maryland studied 2,378 archeological sites and discovered that every society for thousands of years gave early clues to its own demise. Of course, demise happened precisely because those early warnings were ignored, while thinking: “it’s impossible, can’t happen.””
    “Every case experienced massive population growth as a result of the emergence of agriculture followed by technological advancements. Sound familiar?”
    “the Great Barrier Reef, the largest living structure in the world, is signaling its demise like there’s no tomorrow. “Many scientists are now saying it is almost too late to save it. Strong and immediate action is required to alleviate water pollution and stop the underlying cause: climate change.”
    “It is easy to read about it and dismiss it and go on with life, but, in large measure, that’s the problem haunting and overriding ecosystem disintegration.”
    “Alas, groundswell of public opinion is not extant for collapsing ecosystems. It’s just not there at all. Yet, one hundred million people will be glued to TVs watching Super Bowl LII on Sunday, February 4th 2018, whilst the fate of the world’s largest and most important ecosystem rest in the hands of Attenborough, Earle and a handful of dedicated naturalists/marine biologists.”
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/11/dying-ecosystems/

    “Although some countries, mostly in Europe, are trying to slow the use of fossil fuels, these efforts are being hampered by the imperative that economic growth trumps all other concerns.”
    https://fcnp.com/2017/12/11/great-energy-transition-progress-report/

    “While the Paris Agreement remains unbinding and global warming has received minimal attention in the recent elections, governments worldwide are presiding over a large-scale demise of the planetary ecosystems, which threatens to leave large parts of Earth uninhabitable.”
    https://theconversation.com/an-open-letter-to-the-prime-minister-on-the-climate-crisis-from-154-scientists-64357

  111. Miriam English

    Jeezus, you’re thick Harquebus. Get a clue already.
    We know!! Unlike you, other people are trying to fix things. All you do is make people want to give up in despair.

  112. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    You are not fixing things. You are contributing to making matters worse.
    Those who give up in despair will fall by the evolutionary wayside. Those who face reality head on are those who will most likely survive and be the rebuilders. I would like you to be one.

  113. Miriam English

    You’ve got that Orwellian newspeak down pat:
    Scaring people into giving up is “fixing things”, and working on solutions is “not fixing things”.
    Yeah, riiiight.

  114. ceridwen66

    Harquebus, surely you know about the Buddhist fable of the frog whose head exploded after seeing the size of the ocean compared to his own safe little pond. Or better still, the self satisfied ignorant frog – different one because this one had his head still attached – who sat in his pot of water and slowly boiled to death.

    Keep on keeping on.

  115. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    The difference between salvage and total devastation is the difference between some surviving and the annihilation of our species.You are contributing to making matters worse.
    The problem is not how to continue by using other means such as your renewable energy rubbish but, how to change our society toward using limited resources and much less energy. I don’t see this happening so, downward we go. Even the U.N. today has warned of an existential threat but, like you, thinks that science and technology will overcome our predicament.
    Get real, get ready and be there for when our governments are not.

  116. Kaye Lee

    Oh shut up Harquebus. You are more annoying than a mosquito and about as useful.

  117. Kronomex

    Kaye Lee, you can slap a mossie down and it stays down. Mr Doom and Gloom and No Ideas is stuck in a rut, nay, trench and will never go away.

  118. Michael Taylor

    Harquebus, are you Burke, or are you Wills? You’re definitely one of them.

  119. Miriam English

    Harquebus, perhaps you haven’t noticed that your only source for your belief that renewable energy won’t work is a single biased, flawed paper by just one nuclear power scientist (advocating nuclear power) and one anti-solar nut, but arrayed against those two are literally thousands of scientists, technologists, and engineers who are emphatic that not only will renewables work, but that they already are producing more energy than has gone into their manufacture.

    Not only that, have you noticed that the two who produced that paper you rely upon, used old, out-of-date, worst-case data and that it only considered solar photovoltaics?

    There are many other kinds of renewable energy. From a solar water heater that just uses the sun to directly heat your water (one of the most energy intensive operations in the average household), to windmills used to drive generators or pumps, to geothermal, to tidal, to wave power, to solar thermal molten salt generators that produce electricity from the sun 24 hours in the day, to solar thermal stirling engines, and much more.

    But no, I guess you haven’t noticed.

  120. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    I am willing to bet that, when the time comes that you can no longer drive to the shop for your daily needs, you will think of me.

    Michael Taylor
    Burke and Wills did not heed advice. They, just like my critics, knew better.
    I can be absolutely sure that collapse will occur because, every politician on the planet is fixated on growth which, is a guaranteed pathway to hell on Earth. This includes that ignorant moron Bill Shorten and the other haven’t got a clue deadshits who sit behind him. Whatever one’s views are on climate and renewable energy, the pursuit of perpetual growth is certain to end in disaster that, will be compounded by global warming. If we were to cease all CO2 emissions today, don’t worry, we won’t, it will still continue for at least another 40 years.

    It has to stop. Our planet is screaming for us to. That the the growth economy must take precedence or that we can support it with delusions of renewable energy and currency creation is madness and yet, I am in this place, regarded as the lunatic.
    Time and time again I hear the talking heads advocating the need for more growth and not one, not one questions the madness. As I have stated often, my pessimism is justified.

    Those here that think that all one needs to do is elect Labor at the next election and all our energy and economic dreams will come true. Rubbish. It will be a continuation of the same downward spiral that we are already on.
    Only when the Labor supporters urge the Labor Party to abandon growth will my pessimism diminish. That ain’t gonna happen. They do not want give up beer and watching footy on big TV’s in air conditioned comfort any more than the privileged want to give up their luxuries.

    Miriam English
    “only source for your belief that renewable energy won’t work ”
    This is not true. I don’t know why you keep say it and if it was, I would still be one ahead you who, has provided nothing proving otherwise.
    “already are producing more energy than has gone into their manufacture”
    Such as? Do you have any literature on that? No more product promotion from vested interests, please.
    Heating water, grinding grain and milling timber are all fairly easy using natural energy sources.

    The bottom line is:
    “On a finite planet, nothing grows forever.” — Richard Heinberg.

  121. Kaye Lee

    Harquebus, you delude yourself about your importance.

    As far as Miriam (and the rest of us) having “provided nothing proving otherwise”, that is a downright lie. The fact that none of it filters down into your trench is not for our lack of trying.

    In 2016, according to a trends analysis based on a report by the Royal Society of London, the energy return on energy investment (EROEI) for oil appears to have fallen below a ratio of 15 to 1 globally. In places like the United States, where extraction efforts increasingly rely on unconventional techniques like fracking, that EROEI has fallen to 10 or 11 to 1 or lower.

    Meanwhile, according to a new study by the Imperial College of London, solar energy’s return on investment ratio as of 2015 was 14 to 1 and rising. What this means is that a global energy return on investment inflection point between oil and solar was likely reached at some time during the present year.

    The higher energy returns for solar come as module efficiency, supply chain efficiency, and production and installation efficiency are all on the rise. And as solar is a technology-based energy source, we can expect these returns to continue to increase as production bases widen and as innovation drives modules to continue to improve their ability to collect power from the sun.

    https://robertscribbler.com/2016/12/19/solar-now-produces-a-better-energy-return-on-investment-than-oil/

  122. Kronomex

    Harquebus, please do us a favour by putting on a hair shirt and moving into a high mountain cave and blocking the entrance to keep the nasty world from intruding. You give stuck records a bad name.

  123. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    I have clashed with Robert Scribbler before. His articles supporting renewable energy are very biased.

    I read the article and checked a few links including the one from The Imperial College of London.
    “The purpose of this paper is to reproduce and harmonize twenty-nine studies”
    “Few studies in their system boundaries considered energy costs for embodied material, maintenance, decommissioning, and auxiliary services.”

    So here it is again; system boundaries. Where do you draw the line? We’ve argued ad nauseam about this already so, I ain’t goin’ there except to say that, total energy invested is never fully factored in EROEI calculations supporting renewable energy devices as is also the case with everything that you and Miriam have so far provided.

    I will also remind you that lower prices for solar Pv panels is mostly due to slave labour type conditions and toxic byproducts dumped unprocessed into local environments in China.

  124. Miriam English

    Harquebus, you’ll always argue that extra factors need to be included because they always produce results you don’t like. But if something is producing a 14:1 return on energy you’d have to include an absurd amount of extras to wipe that surplus out. Even in the unlikely even that you manage to somehow whittle the EROI down to 2:1 you are still wrong. But you’ll still argue the same pointless doom claptrap regardless of how much evidence stands against you. You’re so entrenched you don’t dare view the evidence clearly.

    You definitely have a damaged memory if you really think I’ve given you zero evidence. But I notice that you quickly distract from how flawed is the “evidence” you provide. One nuclear power aficionado and one anti-solar nut against all the thousands of scientists, technologists, and engineers working on renewable energy.

    And your idiotic comment about slave labor — we were talking about energy return, not monetary return. But they’ve been almost completely automated for some time. Here are 3 different automated factories producing solar PV cells. Spot the humans — they are there, overseeing the machines.



    As I’ve said a hundred times before, we might be in for bad times ahead, or we might sail through almost unscathed. There’s no way to really tell. Certainly you can’t tell, with your cherry-picked doomster opinions. Personally, I think we will come through with some damage, but people are changing direction sufficiently fast to hold off the worst.

    Yeah, our politicians are a sorry bunch of followers, not leaders, but people and businesses are not waiting for them; we are implementing solutions anyway. Not like you. All you do is tell everybody to give up (even though you deny it). It comes through loud and clear in how you present it. You think we’re completely screwed and that there’s nothing we can do about it — stock up on cans and wait for the collapse. What I find most annoying is that not only do you fail to provide any solutions, you desperately try to sabotage all the solutions that have a good chance of saving the planet — even to the point of lying — heaven forbid that solutions interfere with your cherished doom.

  125. Kaye Lee

    I think I am beginning to understand H’s problem. His disbelief of limit theory explains it all. He can’t understand the value and effect of improvement. We can’t convince him that population growth can be, and is being, halted. We can’t convince him that the EROI of renewables is challenging and overtaking that of fossil fuels with the added benefit of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. We can’t convince him that improving efficiency makes a difference. We can’t convince him that improving technology is allowing us to have better appliances with far fewer resources used. We can’t convince him that we can employ people in a myriad of ways that do not add to resource depletion.

    In H’s mind, we are on a linear or perhaps exponential path heading straight into a brick wall. Others recognise the value of slowing the rate of change.

    Learn about limit theory H. Learn about points of inflection. Learn about asymptotes. Maths can open up whole new worlds for you.

  126. Kronomex

    Kaye Lee, be prepared for another, dare I say, rant from Harquebus after he reads your comments. He seems to be incapable of taking on new thoughts and making a paradigm shift in his outlook to just about everything that intrudes upon his belief systems..

  127. Miriam English

    I figure H has had a powerful revelation at some point and this is blocking all thought to the contrary. The experience was overwhelming for him so now he spends all his time divided between finding more tales of doom to bolster his belief and attempting to convert others to it.

    Just as logic can’t make any impression on a religious extremist, it can’t on him. We can present facts to him until we’re blue in the face and he’ll shrug them off, genuinely believing we’ve shown him no facts at all. That’s because he’s not really interested in facts, at least not unless they back up his belief in doom.

    What makes it hard to argue against him is that things are genuinely bad. We really are screwing the planet over. And large numbers of people are ignoring the damage (though thankfully that number is rapidly falling). Also our politicians really are largely ignorant, self-obsessed morons

    For H the glass is only ever half empty. He is incapable of seeing the things that are improving. He determinedly refuses to see the solutions to our problems.

    H is probably a lost cause. I expect he will never see reality. The thing that scares me though, is that he might convince other people to give up and spread his message of hopelessness too. Every person he convinces that the world is screwed makes it that much harder to repair the world. If he, and doomers like him convince enough people, then it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I like to think most people will just shrug off his rants, but I’m reminded of the Jehovah’s Witnesses who periodically visit me to convert me to their message of doom. They started with one crazy person, Charles Taze Russell, in the 1870s, who infected other people with his miserable certainty of doom. They spread his delusion ever outward until now there are 8.13 million Jehovah’s Witnesses propagating hopelessness. Even the 6 separate times they predicted, with utter certainty, the date of doom never shook their conviction. Facts don’t sway such revelatory belief.

    So it is with Harquebus. He knows. All inconvenient facts will be casually dismissed.

  128. Rapideffect

    Improving technology, making it more efficient only leads to the Jevons paradox. Not to mention the fact that technology relies on non renewable resources to be built and maintained.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

    The global population has not been halted, 80 million more humans have been added in 2017.

    http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

    Renewable energy only generates electricity which makes up approximately 20% of global energy demand, where are the other 80% of energy requirements going to come from?

    Renewable energy supplies 3.2% of total global energy consumption, a drop in the ocean compared to fossil fuels.

    “Oil provided the largest increment to energy consumption at 77 million tonnes of oil equivalent (mtoe), followed by natural gas (57 mtoe) and renewable power (53 mtoe).” (Page ten)

    https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/en/corporate/pdf/energy-economics/statistical-review-2017/bp-statistical-review-of-world-energy-2017-full-report.pdf

    Renewable energy cannot solve the energy problems, as jumbo jets, cargo ships, freight trains and road trains are all needed to keep civilization running.

    A good example of the limitations with electrical powered machines is the new electric cargo ship, which on a full charge can travel 80kms. If you want to travel further add more batteries which in turn reduce the amount of cargo that is being carried.

  129. Kronomex

    Is it me or has Harquebus done his usual “scuttle away when things don’t go his way” routine? I’ve noticed on several occasions that he goes quiet for a few days before sticking his head above the parapet and making some comments that appear to have relevance to what the current conversation is about before sliding into his inevitable rants of dire doom and disaster with a bit of gloom thrown in to lighten it all up.

  130. Miriam English

    Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. When his points have been fully addressed and he no longer has a leg to stand on, he often goes quiet… until either he’s forgotten, or else he thinks everybody else has forgotten — I’ve never been sure which it is. It’s difficult to say whether he genuinely forgets or whether he tries to cynically exploit the chance that others have forgotten.

    Sometimes I feel charitable and a little sorry for him — he does seem to have genuine problems understanding and remembering certain things. It would be horrible to have his viewpoint; to see only the problems and never the solutions; to see only the terrible things and never the wonders humanity is capable of; to see only decay and woe and never notice that humanity is becoming more honest, peaceful, and careful; to see only collapse and death and never feel hope for a shining new tomorrow; to see only doom and never see repair of the natural world and humanity becoming its guardians.

  131. Miriam English

    Rapideffect, I should know better than to argue with you because it’s too much like banging my head against a wall.

    Jevon’s Paradox has only limited applicability. During the big oil crisis of 1979 efficiency increased dramatically in cars and many other machines. Oil consumption fell, but well-being didn’t. Renewable energy began to blossom. Many of us realised that we can actually manage perfectly well with less. There was a whole movement that grew up around “less is more”. But you’re probably too young to remember.

    Nobody said population has stopped growing. Population growth is slowing and on current trajectory will stop and reverse in the very near future. In some countries it has already reversed. But you’ve been told this already… many times! It seems you have Harquebus’ convenient forgetfulness for facts that you don’t like.

    Renewable energy can do far more than “merely” generate electricity. But electricity is the most convenient form because it can be turned so easily into so many other things. Considering we already waste about 90% of energy (a travesty) we only really need to replace about 10% of the world’s energy with renewables in combination with efficiency.

    Your numbers regarding the percentage of energy generated by renewables is (deliberately) wrong. You’ve been corrected on this before. Don’t be so dishonest.

    What a surprise that BP is going to argue that oil is irreplaceable! Who would have thought?! And they’re so reliable and so unbiased.

    Renewable energy is already solving the other problems. Of course not all the problems will be solved on the first day. They take time, but they are being solved. We’ve had electric trains for ages, electric automobiles are coming of age, electric trucks have been around for decades with a new generation now being built, we have the first electric airplanes, and at least one early example of an electric cargo ship.

    You’re one of those people who, at the beginning of every technological revolution, has snarked, “It won’t work.” You’re the person saying bronze will never replace stone axes. Yeah, we should really listen to you.

  132. Rapideffect

    “Jevon’s Paradox has only limited applicability. During the big oil crisis of 1979 efficiency increased dramatically in cars and many other machines. Oil consumption fell, but well-being didn’t. Renewable energy began to blossom. Many of us realised that we can actually manage perfectly well with less. There was a whole movement that grew up around “less is more”. But you’re probably too young to remember.”

    Efficiencies lead to more consumption of resources to grow the economy, not less. Like robots that replace human workers to produce more products.

    “Nobody said population has stopped growing.”

    “We can’t convince him that population growth can be, and is being, halted.”

    “Your numbers regarding the percentage of energy generated by renewables is (deliberately) wrong. You’ve been corrected on this before. Don’t be so dishonest.”

    Where is all your evidence to prove those numbers wrong??

    Here is some more evidence that proves you wrong:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

    “Renewable energy can do far more than “merely” generate electricity. But electricity is the most convenient form because it can be turned so easily into so many other things. Considering we already waste about 90% of energy (a travesty) we only really need to replace about 10% of the world’s energy with renewables in combination with efficiency.”

    Waste 90% of energy and only need to replace 10% with renewables, where is the evidence to back up this claim??

    If that was to happen the global economy would collapse, it needs ever increasing resources to grow or it goes into recession ,depression, collapse.

    “Renewable energy is already solving the other problems. Of course not all the problems will be solved on the first day. They take time, but they are being solved. We’ve had electric trains for ages, electric automobiles are coming of age, electric trucks have been around for decades with a new generation now being built, we have the first electric airplanes, and at least one early example of an electric cargo ship.”

    Decades have passed, this is not even close to the first day, and all that has been achieved is more consumption of non renewable resources and more pollution. Renewables have been around for decades and have not made much of a dent in the consumption of fossil fuels.

    The cargo ship has a range of 80km, hardly any use at all. Batteries do not scale well compared to fossil fuels, this is why they are not a substitute for fossil fuels.

    The global economy needs cargo ships, freight trains, road trains, jumbo jets all of which cannot be done with renewable energy. None of this transport has a fully functional, economical vehicle that is totally powered by renewables to prove otherwise.

    “You’re one of those people who, at the beginning of every technological revolution, has snarked, “It won’t work.” You’re the person saying bronze will never replace stone axes. Yeah, we should really listen to you.”

    What technological revolution are you referring to, the renewable energy one, which is not helping much to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Renewable energy is not replacing fossil fuels, the numbers prove this.

  133. mark

    Thanks,now I know the difference between a realist and a fantasist.mark

  134. Miriam English

    Head, meet wall. [clunk!]

  135. Miriam English

    Note, for anybody interested in looking at that Wikipedia page, it is terrible. It uses many incompatible units (Mt, TWh, bcm) to give data so that comparisons between energy sources become risky or even impossible. Even when they do stick to a sensible unit (TWh) the numbers don’t seem to stack up. (For example I’m pretty sure I remember reading that renewable energy greatly exceeded nuclear power capacity last year.) Also, these numbers are pretty out of date. Most growth in renewables has happened in the last few years. That’s what happens with exponential curves.

    It would take me a lot longer than several minutes for me to carefully go over the data and sources properly to work out what’s actually wrong there, but I know that nothing I say to Rapideffect will achieve anything, so I won’t bother. I’ve already wasted more time that it’s worth and I’ve got more important things to do today.

  136. Kaye Lee

    In 1968, we reached the relative peak in global population growth rate. Then, the world grew at a record 2.09 percent – adding 73.2 million to a world population of 3.54 billion. This historical peak was part of a seven-year high-growth period – from 1966 to 1972 – and the only time in recorded history when the world’s population grew above two percent.

    In 1988, just before the fall of the Berlin wall, we reached the absolute peak in global population growth (i.e. in the number of people added). The world gained almost 93 million people and since then world population growth has been declining also in absolute terms.

    Today, the world is adding 81 million people a year, which is still significant and similar to the size of Egypt or Germany. But the relative growth of the world population is almost in free fall. It is expected to decline to 1 percent in 2020 (adding 76 million to 7.6 billion people), the lowest rate since the 1950s.

    Moreover, this trend is set to continue: by 2050, the global population growth rate will be below 0.5 percent, bringing us back to 17th and 18th century figures. The absolute number will decline in equal measure. By 2050, we will be adding only 46 million people a year.

    These averages, though, mask enormous regional differences. Africa is still growing at a rate close to the world’s highest ever recorded level: higher than two percent per year. Europe by contrast is hardly growing at all, while Asia is expending in line with the global average of around one percent.

    At the risk of being repetitive, lift people out of poverty, educate. employ and empower women, and the birthrate will no longer be a problem.

  137. Miriam English

    Great info Kaye. Thanks for passing it on.

  138. Freethinker

    Kaye Lee, the only negative aspect with the slow population growing is that the population in many country is ageing because the advance and quality of health care.
    Uruguay have that problem with a growth rate of 0.37%.
    This slow growth as you correctly said is due to education.

  139. Rapideffect

    Again no evidence to back up your claims, and refute mine. You said you have already corrected the numbers I produced, yet that never happened because the numbers are correct.

    You cannot refute facts with your opinion.

    “Considering we already waste about 90% of energy (a travesty) we only really need to replace about 10% of the world’s energy with renewables in combination with efficiency.”

    Prove this claim, show the evidence…

    “Your numbers regarding the percentage of energy generated by renewables is (deliberately) wrong. You’ve been corrected on this before. Don’t be so dishonest.”

    Prove this claim, show the evidence…

    World Scientists’ Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice
    15,364 scientist signatories from 184 countries

    https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/67/12/1026/4605229

  140. Miriam English

    Jeez, I need my head read, responding to this bullshit.

    Rapideffect, I already told you about how most petroleum vehicles are wasting more than 90% of the energy in the petroleum to move incredibly heavy lumps of metal and glass containing usually a single person often small distances that would be better performed by walking or using public mass-transit. That’s a large chunk of the energy wasted. But from memory I think the largest consumption of energy is in buildings. We waste stupendous amounts of energy keeping them warm and keeping them cool, when sensible design lets us maintain comfortable temperatures passively — good insulation, properly calculated eaves, good use of materials that have high thermal inertia, positioning all rooms that need hot water close to each other, smart use of reflecting surfaces and skylights, and convective ventilation, and much, much more. At least we’ve discarded the incredibly inefficient filament lightbulbs for less wasteful fluorescent and far less wasteful and less polluting LED lights.

    There’s plenty there for you to look up on Google if you’re interested, but I already know you’re not. This is just some stupid game with you. I notice you do Harquebus’ trick of completely ignoring Kaye’s comprehensive answer to your comment about population.

    If anybody else is interested in efficient building design I’ll explain more.

  141. Rapideffect

    Yes you told me your opinion and again cannot back it up with evidence.

    “Considering we already waste about 90% of energy (a travesty) we only really need to replace about 10% of the world’s energy with renewables in combination with efficiency.”

    Show some facts that back up this claim. Going on about making buildings more efficient and internal combustion engines waste over 90% of the energy it consumes does not prove this claim.

    “Your numbers regarding the percentage of energy generated by renewables is (deliberately) wrong. You’ve been corrected on this before. Don’t be so dishonest.”

    Prove that it is wrong, with facts.

    “I notice you do Harquebus’ trick of completely ignoring Kaye’s comprehensive answer to your comment about population.”

    “Nobody said population has stopped growing.” Miriam English

    “We can’t convince him that population growth can be, and is being, halted.” Kaye Lee

    Kaye’s answer proves my point. The population is still growing and is not stopping any time soon. 46 million a year by 2050 suggests the population growth has not halted.

    You continue to ignore all the evidence that disagrees with your beliefs.
    I see your understanding of economics is somewhat limited, the graph doesn’t disprove what I said.

  142. Miriam English

    You have Harquebus’ problems with comprehension too. I said that nobody said population has stopped growing. That means we all know it is still growing. How could you possibly think I was saying that it’s stopped? That’s the opposite.

    However it is slowing and will stop growing then reverse. Population has already stopped growing in some countries. It’s difficult to say exactly when population will level out. If governments get more intelligent people in their ranks we could well speed up education and poverty repair in the poorest parts of the world. That would reverse population growth much sooner.

    You have google. Get off your behind and take a look yourself. I know you won’t listen to anything I say so I have absolutely no incentive to prove anything to you. Besides, anybody with half a brain understands the effect of replacing energy hungry heating and cooling with passive systems.

  143. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Your comment December 15, 2017 at 4:27 pm demonstrates once more your complete lack of understanding and willingness to jump to unwarranted conclusions for no other purpose than an attempt to discredit me rather than engage in serious discussion. You can not see the real world.
    “always argue that extra factors need to be included because they always produce results you don’t like”
    This is exactly what I have been saying. To not include factors such as maintenance, decommissioning and other embodied energy, is to deny reality and provide misleading positive results.
    “the thousands of scientists, technologists, and engineers working on renewable energy”
    After all of their effort, they still can not do it.
    “your idiotic comment about slave labor — we were talking about energy return”
    Yes, we are and is why I added “price” to my comment which, is in addition to and not in lieu of any of my arguments.

    Kaye Lee
    My mind is on overshoot and resource depletion which, does not just mean running out but, accessing ever lower quality resources and expending more energy processing them. Energy that is currently being siphoned off discretionary and other spending and manifested as low growth and the already unrepayable increasing debt bubble.
    As I have already stated, my knowledge of limit theory?, theorem is ‘limited’ so, I ain’t gonna argue about it and considering your demonstrated lack of understanding of basic concepts, I ain’t gonna take your word for it either.

    Miriam English
    “spends all his time divided between finding more tales of doom to bolster his belief and attempting to convert others to it.”
    If one believes that ‘the system’ as it currently functions is unsustainable then, there can only be one outcome and to deceive others into believing otherwise is something that only the dangerously deluded would do. You really do not see the damage that you are doing do you? Only the realization of the many as to our true predicament will spur them to do something. While you and others continue to provide false hope, complacency will continue.

    Kronomex
    Appearing less often is part of my parole conditions. I was surprised to see additional comments.

    Rapideffect
    Like I have said more than once, you are one of the few who ‘gets it’.

    GDP growth is being supported more and more by debt and less and less from available surplus energy. Even if ‘renewable’ could which, it can’t, the arithmetic of compound growth will eventually kill it.

    We have borrowed from the future in order to, ultimately, poison us and pollute our world. So what do we do, borrow more from the future in order to poison us and pollute our world even more. For the sake of GDP growth. This is madness.
    My critics only answer is ‘renewable energy’ and more ‘fiat currency’. That’s it. The former, unproved and unlikely and the latter, a proven failure with only those not currently in use not failing because, they haven’t yet.

  144. Harquebus

    theAIMN
    An editing error. Would one be kind enough to replace in my last sentence:

    those not currently in use not failing because, they haven’t yet.

    With:

    those currently in use not failing because, they haven’t yet.

    Thanking you in advance.

  145. Kronomex

    “Appearing less often is part of my parole conditions.” To use the awful Hanson, please explain otherwise that statement makes no sense and sounds like a dodge.

  146. Harquebus

    Kronomex
    I have been banned several times and nearly even more. To be honest, it was me that recently made the offer recently in to order the former. As a regular hear, you would be aware that I can be, how can I say, abrasive at times.

  147. Miriam English

    H, I bet you think you actually made some kind of rational answer there.
    Subtract the snark and the same old doom and your “reply” December 18, 2017 at 3:15 pm says absolutely nothing. Don’t you want to address any actual points? Does it all slip so completely past you? Can’t you admit that you made mistakes? Are you so religious in your approach? Is your memory so short?

  148. Rapideffect

    “You have Harquebus’ problems with comprehension too. I said that nobody said population has stopped growing. That means we all know it is still growing. How could you possibly think I was saying that it’s stopped? That’s the opposite.”

    I think it is you with the comprehension problems, I never said you said population has stopped growing.

    Kaye Lee said “We can’t convince him that population growth can be, and is being, halted.”

    Miriam English said “Nobody said population has stopped growing.”

    It seems quite clear that halting population growth is the same as stopping it, and it was said, except you don’t admit to being wrong.

    “You have google. Get off your behind and take a look yourself. I know you won’t listen to anything I say so I have absolutely no incentive to prove anything to you. Besides, anybody with half a brain understands the effect of replacing energy hungry heating and cooling with passive systems.”

    You cannot prove anything without facts to back up your claims. I do listen, but only change my opinion when new facts are presented and you have presented none.

    “Don’t you want to address any actual points? Does it all slip so completely past you? Can’t you admit that you made mistakes? Are you so religious in your approach? Is your memory so short?”

    Myself and Harquebus have supplied plenty of evidence that debunks your claims, but you continue to ignore the evidence. You said to me you know more about these issues than myself, so it should be easy for you to produce evidence that I am wrong, but so far nothing…

    “Considering we already waste about 90% of energy (a travesty) we only really need to replace about 10% of the world’s energy with renewables in combination with efficiency.”

    Evidence??

    “Your numbers regarding the percentage of energy generated by renewables is (deliberately) wrong. You’ve been corrected on this before. Don’t be so dishonest.”

    Evidence??

  149. Miriam English

    Rapideffect, I now think you’re just trolling. Anybody can play the game of pretending to misunderstand words and of simply answering any statement with “Evidence?” no matter whether evidence has previously been given or not.

    You’re a waste of time.

  150. Rapideffect

    I don’t troll. You have clearly made many claims which you cannot back up with evidence. When asked for facts that support your claims, you simply go on a rant void of facts.

    You have shown that you don’t know anywhere near as much about these problems as you like to think, and are unable to admit when you are wrong.

    Here are 15,364 scientists that disagree with your overly optimistic opinions:

    World Scientists’ Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice
    15,364 scientist signatories from 184 countries

    https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/67/12/1026/4605229

  151. Miriam English

    Rapideffect, you’re a total moron. As I’ve stated countless times, I am aware of the pressing problems and that’s the case for pretty-much everybody here. If you ever actually read or comprehended what I said you’d realise I agree with those scientists’ warnings. Unfortunately you waste what few brains you have being a fangirl for H’s doom-patrol and making up things to quarrel with in those who want solutions for the world’s problems.

    Go away.

  152. Rapideffect

    So not facts to back up your claims, just insults as this is the bases of all your arguments.

    “Since 1992, with the exception of stabilizing the stratospheric ozone layer, humanity has failed to make sufficient progress in generally solving these foreseen environmental challenges, and alarmingly, most of them are getting far worse”

    This is the complete opposite of your claims, that you have solutions and these solutions are already working. Harquebus, myself realise the problems are getting far worse, just like all those scientists, but you continue to rant that humanity has the solutions.

    I showed you that renewables are only 3.2% of global energy consumption, and you claim that is wrong, yet produce no evidence to back up that claim instead you go on a rant:

    “What a surprise that BP is going to argue that oil is irreplaceable! Who would have thought?! And they’re so reliable and so unbiased.”

    So no facts to prove BP numbers are wrong just your opinion. I then produced numbers from a different source and again you go on a rant:”

    Note, for anybody interested in looking at that Wikipedia page, it is terrible. It uses many incompatible units (Mt, TWh, bcm) to give data so that comparisons between energy sources become risky or even impossible. Even when they do stick to a sensible unit (TWh) the numbers don’t seem to stack up. (For example I’m pretty sure I remember reading that renewable energy greatly exceeded nuclear power capacity last year.) Also, these numbers are pretty out of date. Most growth in renewables has happened in the last few years. That’s what happens with exponential curves.”

    Again no facts to refute the numbers.

    “Rapideffect, you’re a total moron. As I’ve stated countless times, I am aware of the pressing problems and that’s the case for pretty-much everybody here. If you ever actually read or comprehended what I said you’d realise I agree with those scientists’ warnings. Unfortunately you waste what few brains you have being a fangirl for H’s doom-patrol and making up things to quarrel with in those who want solutions for the world’s problems.

    Go away.”

    No need for insults, which is what you do when you cannot refute the evidence. Your so called solutions are not working, because they are based in belief and not fact. The 15,364 scientists disagree with you that the solutions are working, as you go on and on and on that they are working.

    You continue to make up things to justify your fantasies, and provide no evidence/facts/proof to support your position. Maybe you should be a politician, your good at avoiding facts…

  153. Harquebus

    Renewable will either succeed or it won’t. Governments are already committed to this last ditch attempt to rescue the growth economy from diminishing energy returns so, we will see.
    Although the timing is debatable, the one thing that can not be disputed is that the end of growth has to occur due to physical limitations and we are already in overshoot.
    Regardless of everything else, it is the mad pursuit of this destructive ideology that is, or at least should be, our common enemy. Abandoning it will be a good first step toward avoiding the severest of the consequences and yet, more growth is what most want.
    Self destructive madness at a massive scale.

  154. Kaye Lee

    Renewable energy reduces greenhouse gas emissions compared to burning fossil fuels. That means it is already succeeding. Granted, there are some fossil fuels and resources involved in its production and distribution at the moment but it is a vast improvement – that word you have trouble grasping.

    You cannot and will not succeed with anything at all until you understand that steps in the right direction are worthwhile.

  155. Miriam English

    Hallelujah! Harquebus finally says something I can agree with almost completely. My one point of slight disagreement is that this isn’t a last-ditch effort. We have many more solutions. But basically, you’re dead right.

    We will see how renewables fare. So far it’s looking pretty good. We will see.

    The timing is terrible. We should have continued what began way back in the 1970s — nearly half a goddamn century ago! We would have sidestepped so much damage. But good changes are thankfully accelerating now.

    Yes. The end of physical growth must come… at least until we become a spacefaring civilisation. In fact I’d take it further: we need physical contraction, and there are a few useful tools we can use for that:
    ♦ non-physical growth — knowledge, virtual worlds, ebooks, videos, audio, etc
    ♦ growth in efficiency
    ♦ growth in miniaturisation.
    There are limits to efficiency, and probably distant limits to miniaturisation, but no discernible limits to non-physical things such as knowledge.

    I think you’ll find everybody here agrees that we need to abandon the mad pursuit of destructive growth, as you so nicely put it. In fact if you took an informal survey of people on the street I doubt you’d find much disagreement there either. Of course if you did the same poll of the idiots in parliament or the captains of industry you might get a different response. [sigh] But we are changing that… more slowly than I’d like, but it is getting there. Like most things humans do, it will follow an exponential curve. There will appear to be little change for quite a while, until everything changes quickly.

  156. Miriam English

    Rapideffect, you have serious problems with comprehension.

    When the scientists in that Warning to Humanity article say that most of the problems are getting worse, that isn’t the opposite of me pointing out solutions. We are making great headway on some solutions, less so on others, but slowing the deterioration has to happen before stasis and then recovery.

    As you noted, the scientists give the example of repairing the ozone hole as proof that we can do a lot when we work to implement solutions. What you don’t notice is “We have also made advancements in reducing extreme poverty and hunger (www.worldbank.org). Other notable progress (which does not yet show up in the global data sets in figure 1) include the rapid decline in fertility rates in many regions attributable to investments in girls’ and women’s education (www.un.org/esa/population), the promising decline in the rate of deforestation in some regions, and the rapid growth in the renewable-energy sector.”

    The biggest problem with you, Rapideffect, is that you feel compelled to destroy all solutions. You are fixated on failure and doom. Well, I’m glad to disappoint you. The scientists who wrote that article are concentrating on solutions. Perhaps you’d know that if you actually read the article… though with your comprehension skills, perhaps not.

  157. Kronomex

    Miriam, Harquebus and Radipeffect almost seem to be one and the same person when you think about it.

  158. Rapideffect

    @ Kaye Lee

    Renewables account for only 3.2% of total energy consumption, fossil fuels are still growing faster than renewables. To make the entire world run on renewables it would require massive amounts of non renewable resources to be built and maintained. Renewable energy is unsustainable, just as fossil fuels are. Even though renewables may be cleaner than fossil fuels, they are still finite.

    Real success would be to use resources sustainably and not continue to use non renewable resources. What many don’t seem to grasp is renewable energy is unsustainable, therefore not a solution.

    @ Miriam English

    “When the scientists in that Warning to Humanity article say that most of the problems are getting worse, that isn’t the opposite of me pointing out solutions. We are making great headway on some solutions, less so on others, but slowing the deterioration has to happen before stasis and then recovery.”

    Your solutions have been around for decades and are clearly not working as you say they are. This is the opposite of your opinion that great headway is being made, when in actual fact the opposite is true.

    You state that renewable energy can solve the energy problems, but clear examples such as the need for cargo ships, jumbo jets, freight trains, road trains, etc cannot be run on renewables. Without all the large machinery to produce and transport products civilization will collapse.

    Rapid growth in the renewable energy sector, is being out done by the even faster growth in fossil fuels.

    “The end of physical growth must come… at least until we become a spacefaring civilisation. In fact I’d take it further: we need physical contraction, and there are a few useful tools we can use for that:
    ♦ non-physical growth — knowledge, virtual worlds, ebooks, videos, audio, etc
    ♦ growth in efficiency
    ♦ growth in miniaturisation.
    There are limits to efficiency, and probably distant limits to miniaturisation, but no discernible limits to non-physical things such as knowledge.”

    This is where you go into your pseudo science fantasies that are not based on real physics.

    Spacefaring civilization, you got to be joking, but your aren’t!
    Non physical growth of the kind you refer to requires growth in physical resources. Knowledge, ebooks, videos, audio, etc all need resources that are physical.

    Can you prove that ebooks, videos, audio, virtual worlds only require non physical growth??

  159. Miriam English

    Rapideffect, there you go with that inability to comprehend what’s said. I feel a bit bad criticising someone who is obviously not terribly bright, but you just keep arguing — apparently merely for the sake of arguing. Amazing.

    You don’t even understand what you yourself say. For example, this classic pair of statements:
    “Real success would be to use resources sustainably and not continue to use non renewable resources.”
    I wholeheartedly agree, as would most people here. But then you completely contradict that sensible statement with this loopy one:
    “What many don’t seem to grasp is renewable energy is unsustainable, therefore not a solution.”

    I know with your woeful comprehension skills you probably don’t see the problem. Look closely. Think on it.

    Simply saying that none of the solutions are working doesn’t make it so. You are seriously out of step with reality. Even the scientists in the article you promoted point out that we are making great strides in some areas.

    When I mention information, efficiency, and miniaturisation, you call it “pseudo science fantasies that are not based on real physics” despite all three already existing, and you making use of them yourself. The text we’re communicating on doesn’t require paper, the computer is millions of times more powerful and millions of times more energy efficient than the computers when I was a child, and much of that efficiency comes from miniaturisation, fitting billions of switches on a tiny flake of silicon. Do try to learn a bit instead of doing this knee-jerk catcalling. (“Oh no! Miriam said something! I must object!”)

    Well, we’re already a spacefaring civilisation, but it’s early days. Big changes to come, especially when some space elevators finally get built (look it up). But I half agree with you. Most people will never go out into space, to the Moon, or Mars, or the upper clouds of Venus and Saturn, or some of the Saturnian and Jovian moons, and very few will mine the asteroids. But we don’t need many to do so. Most people don’t go on long ocean voyages, but we are a seafaring species. Most don’t board airplanes, but we’ve mastered flight. Most of the work in space will be done by robots, just as it is now. They will bring back minerals from the asteroids, and perhaps the Moon. NASA is sending a robot to Psyche, a metal asteroid, to explore mining techniques and there are multiple private ventures working toward mining the asteroids. One metal asteroid represents more wealth than the entire Earth’s economy! That’s a heck of a lure. Refining is cheaper in space than on Earth. I would say it’s not rocket science, except part of it is… so I guess it’s probably beyond you.

    I never said “ebooks, videos, audio, virtual worlds only require non physical growth”. This is your problem with comprehension again. These non-physical things — basically information — can grow exponentially on a small physical substrate. The example I gave some time back, which you didn’t comprehend, is that my smartphone had no electronic books in it when I first got it. I’ve since loaded a few hundred ebooks onto it and it is no heavier and uses no more electricity than it did back then. There are now smaller, lighter, more efficient smartphones that use even less resources than my relatively old smartphone, so as time goes on, while growing information technology we are actually able to use less.

  160. Kaye Lee

    That is your problem Rapideffect. You are stuck in yesterday and cannot see the possibilities for the future.

  161. Harquebus

    Miram English
    The warning also included population. From a link that I posted here on the 12th Dec. I posted quite a large number of links that day so, I am not surprised that it was missed.
    “a catastrophic “warning to humanity” about ACD impacts and overpopulation, and how humankind is facing an existential threat.”
    You are mistaking jobs for work. Very few are going to make make their a by serving cappuccinos and even less will by making up stories.

  162. Miriam English

    Oh, I forgot to mention that the little space robot OSIRIS-Rex, launched by NASA last year, will reach asteroid Bennu next year, and make a detailed study of it before taking a sample of the asteroid and returning it to Earth in 2023 (just 5 and a bit years away). Coincidentally, that’s when the mission to visit Psyche, the metal asteroid, will be launched.

  163. Miriam English

    Harquebus, not long ago almost all of Earth’s population worked on farms. If you went back in time just a century to our grandparents’ time and told people, “Soon only a tiny percentage of people would work on farms, and almost all human population would work in cities”, they wouldn’t believe you.

    Just a couple of decades ago if someone told you that some of the most wealthy corporations on Earth don’t produce any physical products you’d have not believed it. (You probably still don’t.) Apple, Google, facebook, Twitter — these are some of the most wealthy companies the world has ever seen. Apple still produces physical computers, but I think they’re gradually reducing that part of their business.

    When we have a population that has basic needs covered, physical growth can stop. Efficiency and miniaturisation can actually reduce that physical demand. People increasingly want knowledge and entertainment. That will never stop. Luckily it can be delivered without expanding impact on physical resources.

    You’re not seeing what is happening. And you’re fixated on physical products. The service sector has been growing for a long time. Also Universal Basic Income (UBI) is gaining support from all different political and philosophical sides. Work is probably going to be an outmoded concept soon.

  164. Harquebus

    IPA is an associated entity
    I grabbed a couple of links from my archive in response to your comment on J.L.’s page and noticed the third on today’s reading list so, included that as well. That one is particularly is worth reading.

    “recent research from Melbourne University’s Graham Turner shows that the Meadows team did not get it wrong. Their projections for what would happen if we carried on business as usual tally almost exactly with what has actually occurred in the 40 years since 1972.”
    “How did economic growth become accepted as the only solution to virtually all social problems—unemployment, debt and even the environmental damage growth itself causes?”
    “Growth allowed the privileged to maintain and even increase their wealth, while professing to be saving the world from poverty.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/ockhamsrazor/whats-the-limit-to-the-planets-growth/6092186

    “Although the original authors of The Limits to Growth, led by Donella Meadows, caution against tying their predictions too tightly to a specific year, the actual trends of the past four decades are not far off from the what was predicted by the study’s models. A recent paper examining the original 1972 study goes so far as to say that the study’s predictions are well on course to being borne out.”
    “All the while, governments cling to the idea that “green capitalism” will magically pull humanity out of the frying pan.”
    “As long as we have an economic system that allows private capital to accumulate without limit on a finite planet, and externalize the costs, in a system that requires endless growth, there is no real prospect of making the drastic changes necessary to head off a very painful future.”
    http://energyskeptic.com/2016/limits-to-growth-is-on-schedule-collapse-likely-around-2020/

    “Take for example depletion of copper ores….humanity extracts 15 million tons of copper a year from ores that are only 0.5% copper, which means there are 3 billion tons of waste ore – even more than the total mass of concrete produced a year globally. Once humanity is down to 0.1% copper it will be necessary to shift 5 times the amount of waste – with a correspondingly 5 fold increase in the energy bill to do that.”
    “In summary, the theorists of 1972 argued that growth would run out as more and more resources would have to be devoted to the work arounds and techno-fixes to deal with depletion and pollution. They did not deny that techno-fixes would be available – what they were drawing attention to was that adopting them would take resources away from growing production to fixing the problems.”
    http://www.feasta.org/2017/12/07/limits-to-economic-growth-2/

    Miriam English
    Someone a few days ago in another forum said that we should send Americans to Mars. Another replied that it was a good idea but, that it would require an unrealistic number of rocket trips.

  165. Miriam English

    Well that interlude of sanity was brief, Harquebus. Pity.
    Back to your boring defeatest doom.

  166. Rapideffect

    @ Kaye Lee

    I am stuck in reality, that is my problem. Since the first world’s scientists warning to humanity (1992) was produced little progress has been made to reverse the problems, in reality these problems are only getting worse.

    @ Miriam English

    The statements don’t contradict one another. Renewable energy uses non renewable resources to be built and maintained therefore is unsustainable.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-07/australias-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-trucked-silverton-nsw/9236010

    Your going to say this is sustainable??

    Still no evidence to disprove BP numbers, maybe one day you will admit your wrong…

    “When I mention information, efficiency, and miniaturisation, you call it “pseudo science fantasies that are not based on real physics” despite all three already existing, and you making use of them yourself.”

    “♦ non-physical growth — knowledge, virtual worlds, ebooks, videos, audio, etc”

    That is pseudo science.

    “I never said “ebooks, videos, audio, virtual worlds only require non physical growth”. This is your problem with comprehension again. These non-physical things — basically information — can grow exponentially on a small physical substrate. The example I gave some time back, which you didn’t comprehend, is that my smartphone had no electronic books in it when I first got it. I’ve since loaded a few hundred ebooks onto it and it is no heavier and uses no more electricity than it did back then. There are now smaller, lighter, more efficient smartphones that use even less resources than my relatively old smartphone, so as time goes on, while growing information technology we are actually able to use less.”

    Now you have changed your mind, information can grow exponentially, but not infinitely like you have previously claimed. So you have actually learned something! How much energy does it take to load and then read all those ebooks, your smartphone is not sustainable. Jevons paradox applies here too.

    “Simply saying that none of the solutions are working doesn’t make it so. You are seriously out of step with reality. Even the scientists in the article you promoted point out that we are making great strides in some areas.”

    The numbers prove you are wrong, 3.2% of total energy consumption come from renewables. And fossil fuels are still growing much faster than renewables.

    It is clear in the article (world scientists warning to humanity) that things are getting far worse:

    “By failing to adequately limit population growth, reassess the role of an economy rooted in growth, reduce greenhouse gases, incentivize renewable energy, protect habitat, restore ecosystems, curb pollution, halt defaunation, and constrain invasive alien species, humanity is not taking the urgent steps needed to safeguard our imperilled biosphere.”

    HUMANITY IS NOT TAKING THE URGENT STEPS NEEDED TO SAFEGUARD OUR IMPERILLED BIOSPHERE

    The scientists disagree with you, the so called solutions are not working. Your wrong, but your arrogance won’t let you accept the facts.

  167. Miriam English

    Rapideffect, jeez…

    You don’t understand the meaning of exponential. Look it up.

    I wasn’t going to respond to your petroleum industry propaganda about world percentage of energy that’s renewable, which you keep repeating, and repeating, and repeating, ad nauseum… but in the unlikely event someone takes it at face value:

    In 2015 the US Energy Information Administration (EIA) put renewables at 12% of world total energy production and 21% of total electricity production.
    https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=527&t=4
    That was nearly 3 years ago! Renewables are experiencing extremely rapid growth. The EIA tend to be very conservative with their figures, and they point out they’re only counting saleable power. Also their projections for the future are linear, when renewables are displacing fossil fuels at an accelerating rate.
    The developing world has already moved largely to renewables and efficiency. As the developed world (the biggest waster of energy) changes over to renewables it will affect world numbers even more significantly.

    You take a sentence out of context in the Warning article just to pretend that it contradicts me?
    You really are an idiot.

    I’ve spent way too much time on you. Say what you want. You have zero credibility. I’m done with you.

  168. Rapideffect

    “You don’t understand the meaning of exponential. Look it up.”

    It doesn’t mean infinite…

    “In 2015 the US Energy Information Administration (EIA) put renewables at 12% of world total energy production and 21% of total electricity production.”

    Eia can’t even update there ball park information, I am talking about consumption not production and you will find BP’s data is more accurate and widely used.

    “You take a sentence out of context in the Warning article just to pretend that it contradicts me?
    You really are an idiot.”

    It does contradict you and it was a whole paragraph that was not taken out of context. You do realise the article is world scientists WARNING to humanity, not world scientists HOPES for humanity.

    You have zero credibility when you say things like:

    “Big changes to come, especially when some space elevators finally get built (look it up)”

    “Most people will never go out into space, to the Moon, or Mars, or the upper clouds of Venus and Saturn, or some of the Saturnian and Jovian moons, and very few will mine the asteroids.”

    “One metal asteroid represents more wealth than the entire Earth’s economy! That’s a heck of a lure. Refining is cheaper in space than on Earth.”

    “Considering we already waste about 90% of energy (a travesty) we only really need to replace about 10% of the world’s energy with renewables in combination with efficiency.”

    This is all just wishful thinking and will never eventuate…

  169. Harquebus

    How many here participated in the annual economic splurge over Xmas? I didn’t. For those who did, thank you for your contribution to the continuing environmental destruction and depletion of essential resources. Hope you had a good time.

    “In short, humanity is poisoning itself with a massive flood of chemicals all across the world, dripping wet with toxicity, and shockingly, nobody is really sure of the impact! Yet, there are dizzying numbers of academic research papers, literally thousands of peer-reviewed scientific research that discuss the issue.”
    https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/12/pesticide-suicide/

    “The loss of sea ice is already having profound changes all the way down at the base of the Arctic food web. As more sunlight hits darkly-colored open water, more heat energy is retained, and temperatures are rising further. That’s kicking off what Mathis, of NOAA’s Arctic Program characterizes as “an almost runaway effect,” involving a lengthening of the growing season, a greening of the tundra, a surge in wildfires, and a boom in plankton growth.”
    http://grist.org/article/let-it-go-the-arctic-will-never-be-frozen-again/

    “The world’s economic output is roughly twenty times greater than it was in 1950, and market valuations have increased accordingly. But this is the same growth that is driving our civilization to collapse.”
    “Like any Ponzi scheme, this global growth frenzy is based on maintaining the illusion for as long as possible. Once it becomes clear that this rate of growth is truly unsustainable, the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.”
    “much of the world’s population has been hypnotized by a daily onslaught of celebrity spats and political feuds—anything to avoid the realization that we are all heading for collapse in order to keep the affluent in luxury.”
    “However, the only thing that will truly avert collapse will be a radical restructuring of the economic system that is driving us ever more rapidly to that precipice. This will only come about when enough of us are ready to jettison the consumer values that pervasive mainstream culture foists on us.”
    https://patternsofmeaning.com/2017/12/19/what-will-it-really-take-to-avoid-collapse/

    “The population bomb has burst and we are seeing daily the predicted consequences of collapse and death in the climate, water, oceans, and on the land. Having spent much of my life working to protect Earth’s last naturally evolved primary forests from logging for inequitable over-consumption, I am today ready to declare defeat.”
    “It is not normal for populations of an organism to grow so rapidly, or for an organism to so quickly destroy its own habitat. When this does occur in nature, the result is always mass death and system collapse.”
    “We poorly measure human advancement by the speed whereby this growth machine dismembers our ecological habitat.”
    “Despite vast strides in knowledge and understanding of ecological science truths by specialists, most of the world and its leaders wallow in willful ignorance. “
    “Inordinate amounts of energy are put into techno-optimist schemes that far from obviating ecological limits, simply postpone them as ecosystems are driven even further beyond sustainability. There is no technology that can save us.”
    “Only by limiting our own fertility and consumption can the human family avoid biosphere collapse and the end of being.”
    https://ecointernet.org/2017/10/08/time-of-great-dying-population-bomb-bursts-old-growth-forests-end-and-the-great-awakening/

    “What is most noteworthy is that 2017 is now the hottest non-El Niño year on record”
    http://www.bitsofscience.org/climate-change-anthropocene-extinction-biodiversity-curve-royal-society-report-7808/

    Study: Limits to Growth was Right. Research Shows We’re Nearing Global Collapse (Turner, 2014)
    http://sustainable.unimelb.edu.au/sites/default/files/docs/MSSI-ResearchPaper-4_Turner_2014.pdf

    “Human industrial growth is systematically dismantling the natural ecosystems which constitute our life support system.”
    “The threat to global ecological sustainability goes well beyond climate change, and represents a more systematic failing of current political and economic models. Namely, the commodification of natural ecosystems – that are our and all life’s habitat – and their unsustainable industrial clearance for short-term profit, is sheer ecocidal madness.”
    “the planet is already in a state of ecological overshoot.”

    “Highly inequitable, unjust, and unsustainable industrial human growth is systematically dismantling the ecological systems that make Earth livable.”
    “We must not further squander humanity’s biological inheritance upon the altar of frivolous over-consumption by some. And together we must usher in an era of natural ecosystem protection and restoration.”
    https://ecointernet.org/2017/06/18/the-end-of-being-abrupt-climate-change-one-of-many-ecological-crises-threatening-to-collapse-the-biosphere/

    One for you and the market Miriam.
    “The electric motor is set to replace the internal combustion engine the same way the light bulb replaced the oil lamp.”
    https://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/what-happened-to-peak-oil/6186

    “Anyone who perceives a linear rate of growth, but who is actually up against an exponential rate of growth, is likely to be very surprised at how the end comes very quickly and seemingly out of nowhere. They will be completely blindsided.” — Michael Mills Ph.D.

  170. Miriam English

    blah, blah, doom, doom, blah, blah, end of the world, blah, blah, we’re all screwed, blah, blah

    Try this instead:
    A steady state economy that grows possible alternative title: why we’re not doomed.

  171. Kaye Lee

    “This is all just wishful thinking and will never eventuate…”

    Says the oracle. To know with such certainty what will be possible 50 years from now must be a terrible burden.

  172. Kronomex

    I see Mr. Doom and Gloom is back with a vengeance. I think I’ll go back and finish The Demon collected edition by Jack Kirby.

    “How many here participated in the annual economic splurge over Xmas? I didn’t. For those who did, thank you for your contribution to the continuing environmental destruction and depletion of essential resources. Hope you had a good time.” You really can be a wanker sometimes Harquebus. And don’t expect an apology.

  173. Miriam English

    Harquebus, what did you do to improve the world over the Xmas period?
    Nothing? What a surprise! Doesn’t stop you sneering at other people though.

  174. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    Try comprehending what you read. It might help. I did not participate in the annual destructive consumerism splurge. My spending never includes unnecessary frivolities.
    Your steady state economy once again demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the relationship between energy, work and the real economy.
    Like I keep saying, the longer you continue with your delusions and convincing others to the same, the more damage you are doing. You and others who, are not prepared to completely alter our current political and economic systems are killing us, literally, ‘n’ I ain’t happy about it.

    I sneer at others, you included, who are bringing about the doom and gloom that you accuse me of wanting.

    Kaye Lee
    “To know with such certainty what will be possible 50 years from now must be a terrible burden.”
    As I stated above, every politician on the planet is hell bent on growth with no alternative solution being contemplated let alone implemented. In this scenario, we will not last 50 years. As you are a mathematician, I am surprised and disappointed that you accept this destructive ideology without question. For this reason, I don’t hold your mathematical abilities in very high regard. You might know your maths but, I do not think that you understand it.

    My burden is nothing compared to that which will be placed on those with young families.

    I refer you all to the “Study: Limits to Growth was Right” link that I posted above two days ago.
    Whoever tells me that we are or can be on the path to sustainability while advocating growth, I will, sneeringly, call them a moron.

  175. Kronomex

    Michael, I really think it’s getting very close to the time that Harquebus should be blackballed perrmanently.

  176. Jan

    OOh ! That’s sounds very painful; I wouldn’t go that far Kronomex.

  177. totaram

    It’s the problem with the word “growth”. It has no clear definition and different people can use it to mean different things. Then they can argue past each other forever. As Miriam has suggested, growth need not involve physical resources and the concomitant pollution etc.
    How shall we define growth? We can use the GDP definition even though it has limitations. But that is a definition used by economists and so it will be rejected out of hand by Harquebus. Pity about that!

    “understanding of the relationship between energy, work and the real economy.”

    Perhaps we need to get a clear definition of all these terms in the form that Harquebus uses them. I suspect we will be surprised.

  178. Harquebus

    totaram
    Population, economic and GDP.
    Concentrated solar energy that is depleting rapidly and will never be replaced by diffuse solar and irregular ‘renewable’ sources.
    Where stuff is made and as compared to jobs where stuff isn’t.
    The economy that we live in as compared to the financial economy that was never supposed to be included in GDP figures but, was because, it makes the real economy appear more productive than it actually is.

  179. totaram

    H: your post doesn’t answer any questions as usual. No definitions. Just waffle. Such a poor performance by a self-proclaimed “scientist”.

    “Concentrated solar energy that is depleting rapidly”. No it is stored solar energy if you are referring to fossil fuels, concentrated or not.

    Diffuse energy from the sun can be concentrated by mirrors, in case you didn’t know. Why can’t it replace fossil fuels? No evidence whatsoever. Have you seen a solar-thermal plant in operation? There are several functioning ones.

  180. Miriam English

    Solar thermal plants operate 24 hours a day.

    Also, smart grids enable sources to be switched so that when one abates another is tapped.

    Windmills can be placed in spots that almost never are becalmed. Luckily for Australia the so called Trade Winds circle the planet a little to our south. And placing windmills near any shoreline capitalises on the differential heating between land and ocean. During the day the land heats more quickly so wind rushes onto the land from the ocean to replace rising air. During the night the flow is reversed as the land cools more quickly than the ocean, so air rushes offshore. This is reliable energy and the technology to reap it is well known and understood.

    Solar photovoltaic panels are the ones that Harquebus gets his knickers in a knot about, but his declarations that they don’t make back the power they used for manufacture goes back to a single biased and flawed study that cherry-picked from old data. That study was wrong then and is even more wrong now as photovoltaics have been increasing in efficiency (outputing more electricity per unit) and their manufacture continues to become more efficient. Solar PV now repays about 14 times the amount of energy used in their manufacture (more or less depending on the specific kind). Not only that, there are early signs that we might have a new kind of solar panel that uses carbon instead of silicon in the near future. That might be even more efficient… we’ll see.

    But nothing will convince Harquebus. He stopped learning ages ago and is stuck with a bee buzzing around in his bonnet:
    “You’re all fools! Only I know what’s coming. You should all ignore the thousands of scientists and listen only to the gospel of Harquebus! You’re all doomed! Doomed! DOOMED!!!”

    Yeah, sure, Harquebus.

  181. totaram

    Miriam: The entire concept of ERoEI has some subtle difficulties. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. What do we mean by Energy invested? And what is the energy return? The idea of doing this kind of assessment for any technology is not wrong, but it just needs to be sorted out more clearly in conceptual terms, and I don’t believe people have got there yet. That is why there are so many contradictory numbers floating around. We probably need to measure the increase in entropy caused by a manufacturing process to get it right, but I won’t insist that is the right way to go.

  182. Harquebus

    totaram
    What you asked for was, “clear definition of all these terms in the form that Harquebus uses them”.
    Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.
    Growth: Population, economic and GDP.
    Work: “Where stuff is made and as compared to jobs where stuff isn’t.”
    Economy: “The economy that we live in as compared to the financial economy that was never supposed to be included in GDP figures”
    I refer you to another term: ‘Energy density.’ I’ll leave you to educate yourself on that one.

    In regards to renewable energy, it will never create a truck let alone power any and without them, you can kiss the renewable dream goodbye regardless of its viability. Yes, Elon has built one but, on the back of existing fossil fueled infrastructure and is pretty much useless.
    China has built and is now operating a battery operated cargo ship. It can travel 80km before requiring a two hour charge and guess what it is hauling? Coal.
    https://thinkprogress.org/china-electric-cargo-ship-coal-b3c6aa90564e/

    In regards to EROEI calculations, that which is not directly factored in the supply, manufacture, construction, maintenance and decommissioning, must be included in the surplus required to sustain our society. Boundaries have always been at the heart of our arguments on this issue and I agree with your statement; “needs to be sorted out more clearly in conceptual terms”.
    ‘Seneca cliff’ is another term that you might want to look up.

    Miriam English
    “declarations that they don’t make back the power they used for manufacture goes back to a single biased and flawed study that cherry-picked from old data.”
    Rubbish. It is you that uses this single study which, was not flawed. You are out of date.

    It is you that refuses to learn and it is the likes of you that are causing societal collapse. I don’t want it but, you insist on bringing it on.

    Please provide me with one example of a solar thermal plant operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. There are some on the drawing boards and some pilot plants which can not but, none that I know of that substantiates your claim.

    There are not the resources to roll out your solar thermal and other renewable non solutions and replace existing energy sources let alone continue to support a growing economy and population. Inevitable supply chain disruptions, thank you very much in advance, will soon idle renewable energy sources.

    The fact is, you and others are not prepared to do what is required: Power down. You prefer to continue with you delusions rather than face reality and tackle our very serious problems head on.

    Just out of curiosity, what did you study and what was your main employment? You can email me on this if you prefer.

  183. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    I see that you are going to leave it up to me to determine which, if any, can operate the “24 hours a day, 365 days a year” that I specified as compared to the “Solar thermal plants operate 24 hours a day” that you bragged about.

  184. totaram

    H:
    Growth: So if population doesn’t grow but the GDP grows, is that growth? And you feel it should be zero? Why?
    Work: So if I spent a lifetime, without “making stuff” I didn’t do any work?
    “The economy that we live in as compared to the financial economy that was never supposed to be included in GDP figures”

    I have no idea what this means. Never supposed to be in GDP by whom? The financial economy is very much one in which we live, as far as I can tell. I agree that there are “financial services” which may have doubtful value, but that does not help us define anything.

    I am fully conversant with energy density, as it is used in certain areas of science. You could easily have said: KJoules/gram “chemical energy” as released via combustion in air.

    Seneca cliff: nice allusion and plausible hypothesis. Not enough evidence to support this hypothesis

    “In regards to renewable energy, it will never create a truck let alone power any and without them, you can kiss the renewable dream goodbye regardless of its viability. ”

    No evidence for this assertion whatsoever. Why must we use trucks to start with? Why will we never create a truck that runs on renewable electricity? What about Elon Musk’s truck? Isn’t that a start? Of course it has been built using fossil fuel infrastructure, but that is inevitable.
    I am sure the first motor cars built used horse-drawn carriages to haul their components around, but so what?

    Simply asserting something doesn’t make it true. Another one below.

    “There are not the resources to roll out your solar thermal and other renewable non solutions and replace existing energy sources let alone continue to support a growing economy and population. Inevitable supply chain disruptions, thank you very much in advance, will soon idle renewable energy sources.”

    Why would we believe any of these assertions? Why are there not enough resources? What is your calculation for that? When will the renewable energy sources be idled? Any time-frame? How do you arrive at it? Any calculation?

    You don’t seem to understand what science is about, in spite of claiming to be a scientist.

    Simply popping up and making unsupported assertions about impending collapse and doom doesn’t lead to anything. Most of us simply ignore what you say because there is nothing rational one can engage with. And trying to attract attention with ad hominem attacks doesn’t help at all.

  185. Kaye Lee

    I have an idea that might appeal to you H. If we all stop eating then there won’t be a food shortage.

    As for the trucks that can “never be powered by renewables”…..

    Heavy-duty trucks will soon be driving around in Trondheim, Norway, fueled by hydrogen created with solar power, and emitting only pure water vapor as “exhaust”. Not only will hydrogen technology revolutionize road transport, it will also enable ships and trains to run emission-free.

    the Japanese are not just interested in hydrogen as a fuel for transport, but also for stationary power generation. In order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, Japan has already entered into an agreement with Australia to import of hydrogen from 2020.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170620094551.htm

  186. Miriam English

    H, yeah, a little boo boo by me there. Most of those in the list are parabolic trough systems that won’t work after the sun has gone down (we have one of those supplying Nambour Hospital near me, I’m not sure if they use it to generate electricity or to supply heat). There are three or four of the tower type of solar thermal stations listed there. Oddly, they don’t list the enormous one in Spain or the somewhat smaller one in Canberra. I think there are a few others scattered around the world.

    The tower type of technology works during the night because the concentrated sunlight heats molten salt to more than 500° C and that’s used to drive a steam engine in similar fashion to a coal-burning or gas-burning, or oil-burning power station. The stored heat works to boil water even after the sun has set.

  187. totaram

    H: Why should solar thermal plants run 24/7 and 365 days a year? Coal fired plants have been around for over a century and even they don’t run like that. They need to be taken off-line for maintenance. In any case, if there is enough power in a grid to meet peak demand, then at off-peak hours some plants will need to power down, or they can be used to pump water uphill in a reversible pumped hydro system.
    That storage technology is currently the cheapest and most efficient. Electric power systems are run as an integrated system with all generation types and assets playing their role. The fact that “privatisation” has led to a “market” that is not nearly as efficient as it could be, is another issue.

  188. Miriam English

    Oh, and I should point out that home rooftop solar thermal panels quietly provide hot water 24 hours a day. Hot water is one of the most energy-expensive items in a household.

  189. Harquebus

    totaram
    It can get cold when the sun don’t shine.

    Here is something that I was going to put up later but, it pretty much sums up my attitude so, will do it now and put us some more later. Before anyone criticizes, yes, I know that the author is only a cardiologist.

    “Open Letter To: Staff of the School of Public Health, University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia, August 2017”
    “This issue has been ignored, denied and dismissed for years by “endless growth” economists and other flat earthers, but denial does not make a problem go away. I refer to the looming catastrophic curtailment of liquid hydrocarbon fuels, the “net energy cliff””
    “Prior to the global financial crisis of 2008, a tiny handful of individuals who looked at the hard data predicted that a looming sudden financial crash was inevitable.” (I, Harquebus, was one of these.)
    “You will only have yourself to blame when food vanishes from the supermarket shelves, mountains of garbage pile up in your neighbourhood and centrally controlled services grind to a halt with dry taps at home, unflushable toilets and failure of the electric grid.”
    “If you open your eyes however, you will discover how feasible it is to protect yourself and your family from the worst effects of collapse, provided you plan in advance.”
    “The herd mindset has been completely captured by trivial drivel and monumental deceit perpetrated by the establishment media (who propagated the criminal “WMDs in Iraq” lies). Those corporate lackeys dismiss realists such as myself as “alarmists”, to which I respond: if a house is on fire, those who raise the alarm are acting to save lives, but those who deny it are murderers.
    http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com.au/2017/12/an-open-letter-by-geoff-chia-to-school.html

  190. Miriam English

    Harquebus, if you accuse me of participating in mass murder then you are a contemptible idiot.
    When will you learn that posting someone’s opinion doesn’t amount to evidence?

  191. Kronomex

    Michael, I would like to formally request that you ban Harquebus. His utterly contemptible and vile accusation of Miriam being involved in “mass murder” oversteps the boundaries, in fact it hits out of the field and over the fence. No apologies, and he seems to do that a lot when he knows he’s made a mistake, should be accepted.

  192. Harquebus

    Miriam English
    You just don’t realize it yet but, you will when you see it.
    You don’t read what I provide let alone the citations that are often included so, you have no idea what I have presented. It is your opinion and yours alone that concerns you.

    “If it was changed to: everybody would disappear, except a small select group of true believers who included H himself…?”
    This is not what I want at all and you know it.

    Kronomex
    “But Harquebus, you are continually bleating about doom and gloom and the end of the world so it’s a valid question.”
    Yes but, it is not to bring it on but, to avoid it. Until I can convince others, like those here, to help me convince politicians and MSM journalists that it is an unavoidable consequence of growth, it is going to.
    Our current system is unsustainable therefore, unless drastic changes are made, there can only be one outcome.

    theAIMN
    In reference to Kronomex’s request for my banishment; please refer to the highlighted excerpt in my 2:23pm post for the context regarding my accusation of mass murder.
    I do not think that it oversteps any bounds.

  193. Matters Not

    Pumped hydro can come from solar – floating on the dams.

    Floating solar panels at Alto Rabagão dam, the world’s first combined hydro and floating photovoltaic project, were officially inaugurated on July 6, 2017, in Montalegre, Portugal. Energias de Portugal (EDP) has started a pilot operation with 2,500 square meters of solar floating panels that are able to annually generate more than 300 megawatts per hour. Their production is combined with that of the dam.

    Turn of the century saw Portugal importing virtually all of its electricity via Spain. A big drain on the poorest member of the EU.

    Now it’s almost self sufficient. Also doing advanced work using molten salt (experimenting with various chemical compositions.)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/hydro-solar-plant_us_595f96dee4b02e9bdb0c0fa6

  194. Kaye Lee

    Of course it oversteps the bounds H. It is utterly ridiculous.

  195. Matters Not

    Religious nutters are like that! The end is nigh The sky is falling – almost always.

    And like all religious nutters only he knows the way.

  196. Harquebus

    Kaye Lee
    I am betting that you did not even refer to the excerpt that I mentioned.
    You, along with many others here, are also participants. It distresses and annoys my greatly that you do not see it. Your 10km drives to the shop for your daily needs is only one small example but, hey, you’re happy with it so, that what counts. Eh?

    We are drowning in our own shit, metaphorically speaking and if that is not murder, what else do you call it? Willful ignorant suicide perhaps?

    I have overstepped my self imposed limit for today and will be back again termorra.

  197. Kronomex

    Harquebus, remember I used the word “hypothetical”. From your reply, such as it is, are you afraid to answer? It was a simple yes or no answer. By the way, your confected “I’m shocked…” answer was, too put it mildly, laughable.

    I also stand by my request that you be banned. You have overstepped any reasonable boundaries time after time and yet you keep coming back and making the same mistakes without learning anything. We can imagine you grinding your teeth when you “apologise” then you go straight back into your old habits without a trace of remorse.

  198. Kaye Lee

    “Your 10km drives to the shop for your daily needs”

    God you talk crap. I don’t have a car. My husband picks up what we need after work. I couldn’t tell you the last time I went to the shops. But hey, why worry about the facts when you already know better.

  199. Michael Taylor

    Yes, accusing Miriam of mass murder is beyond deplorable. I will be removing that allegation and placing Harquebus in moderation.

  200. Michael Taylor

    Miriam, please accept our apologies for that claim being published on this site.

    I decided against putting the culprit in moderation. Instead, he has been blocked from commenting here again. We cannot run the risk of of him repeating such comments, and he has repeatedly shown that he cannot be trusted to refrain from making them.

    This one crossed the line by about 20 kilometres.

  201. Freethinker

    Michael, to cop with that you have to have a massive amount patience or compassion for so much stupidity.
    Perhaps he can give some example and move far away in a cave without electricity and any facilities provided by modern life.

  202. Rossleigh

    I want to place on record that I do not drive 10ks to the shops for my daily needs. I live much closer to the shops than that. No, I usually get into my car and drive 10ks a day so that I can be guilty of mass murder because that’s what I’m like.
    As for Harquebus, I have noticed that he has an obsession with physics, is always sure that he is right and can be very irritating. Has anyone else seen “The Big Bang Theory”? The show, not the actual theory which would be an abstract and not at all visible.
    For those of you who don’t know what I’m talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3oygAfCow4&list=RD8xn-Rb0jejo&index=6

    Cheers everyone.

  203. Miriam English

    No worries Michael. 🙂

    Harquebus shows once again that he is a religious extremist and he also shows why religious extremists are so dangerous. It is a tiny step from accusing someone of being part of mass murder to exacting “justice”, such as shooting a doctor who performs abortions, or torturing an accused witch to death in order to extract a confession that will save their imaginary immortal soul, or beheading an atheist for denying their imaginary god, or beating up someone whose sexuality is an affront to their imaginary god.

    It may seem like he’s a harmless nut foaming at the mouth, but his accusations that those trying to help fix the world via renewable energy are destroying it, nurture exactly the kind of hysteria that, when magnified by greater numbers of people, becomes really dangerous.

    Thankfully I doubt his obsession with doom will ever infect many people. Most people realise we face a lot of problems, but prefer to work toward genuine solutions instead of giving up.

  204. Miriam English

    🙂 Yes, Rosslegh. Harquebus is like Sheldon would be if Sheldon didn’t understand science, but only thought he did.

  205. totaram

    Rossleigh:
    despite Harquebus’ claim to being a scientist, and his appeal to Physics, I get the feeling that his knowledge of Physics is quite poor. All this talk of “energy” in the EROEI debate is very shaky, because all the energy being discussed eventually dissipates into the environment. So what is “invested” is questionable at best. We can measure what is produced if it is electrical power/energy, but again, there are so many ways of harvesting solar energy as well as the “waste heat” from power stations, that the entire enterprise is fraught with difficulties. Yet, he blithely goes ahead and credits various blog writers with irrefutable logic in predicting the “doom and gloom” of his prognostications. The weakest link is between “jobs” and “growth” (funny that!) and the inevitable destruction of the planet’s environment. This effect is just assumed. I don’t think even an “opinion-link” to this effect has been provided.

    All I can say is that he should have proceeded to do an “Advanced Diploma” in the subject. This would have given him the equivalent of an Honours Degree in the subject with a path way to a Ph.D. , important because it would have required the equivalent of an Honours Thesis. His current efforts would not even qualify as a “literature survey” for the start of that thesis, and I can assure everyone that I have assessed so many that I have lost count. Simply cutting and pasting quotations of people’s opinions just doesn’t cut it.

  206. Kaye Lee

    Particularly when you have no regard for the credibility of your sources. He endlessly quotes one dated “scientific” paper about the EROIE of renewables which has been thoroughly debunked. This is such a rapidly developing field that papers from years ago do not represnt current possibilities. The thing that really gets me as well is that he refuses to accept that efficiency has hugely reduced the resources required nowadays. Miriam’s example of the mobile phone and all it can do for example. Or the difference new light bulbs make. Or the growing recognition of how housing design makes a big difference to energy efficiency. Of course they all still use resources but less than they used to. All life consumes resources. Of course we all need to reduce consumption and be better at reusing and recycling but there are ways we can do that.

    As I have said so often, the end of life on earth is inevitable because one day the sun will expand/explode. In the mean time, we do the best we can.

  207. Rapideffect

    “What about Elon Musk’s truck? Isn’t that a start? Of course it has been built using fossil fuel infrastructure, but that is inevitable.”

    Would be if it was a viable vehicle, major vehicle manufacturers would already be making them, but they aren’t, and neither is Tesla. Elon Musk never released the full specs on the truck, just hype, so more investors will fund his money losing business.

    Even if the truck was viable (had the needed renewable energy charging stations, used battery technology that would not cut into it’s payload and was as cheap or cheaper than an equivalent fossil fuel truck) there is still the fact that some of the materials come from non renewable resources, like tyres from fossil fuels.

    For renewable energy to be a substitute for fossil fuels, it needs to do what fossil fuels can do, but renewable energy is a technology not a fuel source. Fossil fuels are more energy dense than renewables and can be easily transported and stored.

    “The thing that really gets me as well is that he refuses to accept that efficiency has hugely reduced the resources required nowadays. Miriam’s example of the mobile phone and all it can do for example. Or the difference new light bulbs make.”

    Jevons paradox proves this wrong…

    Miriam English uses the example of computers being large and using lots of energy when computers were in there infancy and now they are small and have much more processing power like the smartphone. The reality is there are now billions of computers, so efficiency leads to more consumption.

  208. Miriam English

    [groan] Rapideffect takes up where H left off…

    On the “logic” that something can’t be done because it hasn’t already been done by someone else, nothing new would ever be done. It’s similar to your ridiculous claim that because a technology doesn’t spring into existence, fully formed, it will never succeed. Early automobiles were made with materials carted by horses and mined with horse-drawn mining trolleys, so on your “logic” automobiles could never replace horses, yet here we are.

    There is nothing wrong with making tyres and plastic from oil. On the contrary that’s exactly what we should have always been doing — not burning it!

    Renewable energy is already replacing fossil fuels, even though batteries as intermediate storage systems are not generally as energy dense as petroleum (there are efforts to change that). However hydrogen has similar energy density to petroleum, and as Kaye noted earlier (December 30, 2017 at 2:03 pm), Norway is switching over to hydrogen-powered vehicles, using the hydrogen as an energy-storage medium for solar power.

    You do love your Jevon’s Paradox, but it will surprise you to learn that it isn’t universally applicable. More efficient light bulbs, for instance, along with other more energy efficient appliances, caused a massive drop in electricity demand. People didn’t suddenly go out and install ten times more light bulbs, or buy 2 washing machines because their washing machine uses half the energy and water.

    I haven’t done the calculations on mobile phones, but I’d be surprised if the incredibly low-energy consumption of all the extra smartphones equalled the old, energy-hungry desktop computers. Perhaps it might exceed the energy consumption of the massive behemoths that used to occupy entire floors of buildings, but it’s difficult to say. As I said, I haven’t calculated it out. Neither have you, so you prove nothing.

  209. Kaye Lee

    If you are going to judge the full effect you would have to count all the other changes that have come from having a computer. I don’t have to drive to the library or to the bank or to the shops. Instead of 50 people each going to the shops, one delivery van does one run and brings their groceries to them. I don’t have to go to the bank to withdraw money to pay for things. I don’t even have to leave the house to pay my bills and no trees are cut down to print them and no postman has to deliver them to me. I don’t have to drive to Sydney to deliver my paperwork to the accountant or to the post office to get stamps.

    How far do we go in including the benefits. Do we discuss the social benefits of allowing elderly people to keep in touch with the world perhaps delaying their entry into aged care? Or the health benefits of real time monitoring from home?

    Surely we must include the benefits of reduced emissions from all those trips we don’t have to make?

  210. Rossleigh

    The point you were making about the mobile phones, Miriam, as I understood it, was that while technologies may be too expensive to be ecnomically viable for the average person soon become cheap once there are improvements in their efficiency, coupled with economies of scale. If you apply this to Elon Musk’s developments then there is a strong chance that what’s unaffordable today may be cheap tomorrow.
    Rapideffect, in impersonating his hero, Donald Trump, either doesn’t get it or pretends not to, prefering to concentrate on telling us all that we should be consuming less and that the growth of mobile phones and computers is contributing to greater energy consumption. Whie he has a point, it’s clear he has both a limited knowledge of computer science because he’d realise that, by using our mobile phone for many tasks, we don’t have to drive 10kms to the shops for our daily needs, thus saving energy.
    Of course, his argument about computers contributing to that naughty “consumption” thing would be less hypocritical if he were to be using a quill pen and parchment to get his (or her) message across…

    I know, I know, rapideffect thinks that he (or she) is special.

  211. Rapideffect

    “On the “logic” that something can’t be done because it hasn’t already been done by someone else, nothing new would ever be done. It’s similar to your ridiculous claim that because a technology doesn’t spring into existence, fully formed, it will never succeed. Early automobiles were made with materials carted by horses and mined with horse-drawn mining trolleys, so on your “logic” automobiles could never replace horses, yet here we are.”

    I never said that if technology doesn’t spring into existence, fully formed, it will never succeed, that’s just being dishonest.

    There is nothing wrong with making tyres and plastic from oil. On the contrary that’s exactly what we should have always been doing — not burning it!

    Nothing wrong with it??

    “You do love your Jevon’s Paradox, but it will surprise you to learn that it isn’t universally applicable.”

    I never said it was universally applicable…

    “More efficient light bulbs, for instance, along with other more energy efficient appliances, caused a massive drop in electricity demand.People didn’t suddenly go out and install ten times more light bulbs, or buy 2 washing machines because their washing machine uses half the energy and water”

    Electricity demand dropped for many reasons. Efficiency gains are only part of the reason. Moving away from electricity intensive industries, as well as higher electricity prices for consumers also play there part.

    It’s not that people buy two washing machines, it’s that the efficiencies and economies of scale reduce the purchasing price making the product available to more people. Hence more products are sold. Also the population is growing, so there are more people to buy more products.

    “I haven’t done the calculations on mobile phones, but I’d be surprised if the incredibly low-energy consumption of all the extra smartphones equalled the old, energy-hungry desktop computers. Perhaps it might exceed the energy consumption of the massive behemoths that used to occupy entire floors of buildings, but it’s difficult to say. As I said, I haven’t calculated it out. Neither have you, so you prove nothing.”

    Yet you claim it to be true, now you are saying you can’t back up your claim with proof. It’s not just smartphones, ALL the new more efficient computers including desktops, laptops, smart watches, tablets, etc are included.

    “Rapideffect, in impersonating his hero, Donald Trump, either doesn’t get it or pretends not to, prefering to concentrate on telling us all that we should be consuming less and that the growth of mobile phones and computers is contributing to greater energy consumption. Whie he has a point, it’s clear he has both a limited knowledge of computer science because he’d realise that, by using our mobile phone for many tasks, we don’t have to drive 10kms to the shops for our daily needs, thus saving energy.
    Of course, his argument about computers contributing to that naughty “consumption” thing would be less hypocritical if he were to be using a quill pen and parchment to get his (or her) message across…

    I know, I know, rapideffect thinks that he (or she) is special.”

    I’m not impersonating Donald Trump, nor do I think I’m special, I’m as much of the problem as anyone else that uses fossil fuels. Do you have an actual point to make or just like to abuse people who don’t agree with your opinion?

    Many people who own computers, don’t own vehicles. Today many children have computers such as tablets, laptops and smartphones, they don’t drive cars.

  212. Miriam English

    Rapideffect, actually that is exactly what you were saying about electric trucks. You say it’s proof they’re not a replacement for fossil-fuelled trucks because people aren’t already making them (wrong: people have been making electric trucks for many years) and because they have been manufactured with fossil fuel.

    Here is a great piece of double-think:
    “Electricity demand dropped for many reasons. Efficiency gains are only part of the reason. Moving away from electricity intensive industries, as well as higher electricity prices for consumers also play there part.”

    So, I’ll bite. How did we Australians move away from electricity intensive industries?
    And the bit about higher electricity prices made me hoot with laughter. So, does this mean people were careful not to waste electricity? (Also known as being more efficient.)

    Then you say I was claiming that your beloved Jevons paradox didn’t apply to smartphones, but I never did. I specifically said I haven’t done the calculations on that, so I don’t know. I also pointed out that neither have you, so your claim to know is fakery.

  213. Rapideffect

    “Rapideffect, actually that is exactly what you were saying about electric trucks. You say it’s proof they’re not a replacement for fossil-fuelled trucks because people aren’t already making them (wrong: people have been making electric trucks for many years) and because they have been manufactured with fossil fuel.”

    I was actually referring to Elon Musk’s truck, not small electric trucks. It seems you can’t comprehend what I actually said.

    “What about Elon Musk’s truck? Isn’t that a start? Of course it has been built using fossil fuel infrastructure, but that is inevitable.”

    Would be if it was a viable vehicle, major vehicle manufacturers would already be making them, but they aren’t, and neither is Tesla. Elon Musk never released the full specs on the truck, just hype, so more investors will fund his money losing business.

    Even if the truck was viable (had the needed renewable energy charging stations, used battery technology that would not cut into it’s payload and was as cheap or cheaper than an equivalent fossil fuel truck) there is still the fact that some of the materials come from non renewable resources, like tyres from fossil fuels.

    It’s clear from those paragraphs I am talking about Elon Musk’s new truck, which is a class 8 truck and there are none that are commercially available.

    “So, I’ll bite. How did we Australians move away from electricity intensive industries?
    And the bit about higher electricity prices made me hoot with laughter. So, does this mean people were careful not to waste electricity? (Also known as being more efficient.)”

    “Research we have recently completed concludes that the three largest factors contributing to the recent dramatic changes in demand for electricity are:

    *the impact of (mainly regulatory) energy efficiency programs
    *structural change in the economy away from electricity intensive industries
    *since 2010, the response of electricity consumers, especially residential consumers, to higher electricity prices."

    https://theconversation.com/why-is-electricity-consumption-decreasing-in-australia-20998

    People not being able to afford more energy is not efficiency, they used less, not produced more work for the same amount of energy consumed.

  214. Miriam English

    I’d dispute their conclusions about consumers’ reasons for reducing electricity use, but even if it was as a result of higher prices, getting the same results with less electricity is efficiency. You are playing with words.

    On the truck, fair enough, I’ll concede that you were talking about Elon Musk’s electric truck. You’re being a bit premature in your dismissal of it though. I’d wait a bit to see whether he’ll come through on it. He has quite a reputation for succeeding with difficult ventures and if he succeeds with this you risk egg on your face. Your choice though. I guess you can hope nobody remembers.

    You talk about Elon Musk’s “money losing business”. After massive investments it takes a while to recoup that money and start to make a profit. Tesla has now just turned that corner. After making a mere $22 million profit at the end of 2017 the future is now looking good for Tesla. You’re welcome to predict it will fail. We should know by the end of 2018. That’s not long to wait. We’ll see how good your crystal ball is then. I know you hope he fails. I suspect it’s because you want your doom view validated.

    As for me, I’m not that rash. I hope he succeeds, but I can imagine any number of stumbling blocks, many of them unrelated to the viability of the business and the technology. We’ll see very soon.

  215. Rapideffect

    “I’d dispute their conclusions about consumers’ reasons for reducing electricity use, but even if it was as a result of higher prices, getting the same results with less electricity is efficiency. You are playing with words.”

    You are the one playing with words to pretend you are correct. No one is getting the same results with less electricity, they are using less electricity and getting less results. Dispute their conclusions with what, your opinion, you need evidence to do that.

    “He has quite a reputation for succeeding with difficult ventures and if he succeeds with this you risk egg on your face.”

    Tesla was founded in 2003, that’s long time to wait (2017) for a $22 million profit that is now where near enough to sustain the company. I don’t hope the company he works for fails at all. I don’t have a doom view, I just prefer facts over fantasy. I’m a realist I see things as they are, not hope for how things should be in a perfect world.

    “As for me, I’m not that rash. I hope he succeeds, but I can imagine any number of stumbling blocks, many of them unrelated to the viability of the business and the technology. We’ll see very soon.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/innovation/elon-musks-tesla-is-burning-through-10500-a-minute-as-model-3-problems-linger-20171121-gzq8p2.html

    “Whether they can last another 10 months or a year, he needs money, and quickly,” said Kevin Tynan, senior analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence, who estimates Tesla will be required to raise at least $US2 billion in fresh capital by mid-2018.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2017/10/16/maybe-elon-musk-should-fire-himself-for-allowing-tesla-to-sink-into-production-hell/#5a0a6a4d36e3

    “The first quagmire for Musk has been his inability to get production of the Model 3 ramped up to anywhere near the levels that he indicated very recently would be required for the car to become a mass-market entry next year, as he promised long ago.

    In its third-quarter sales report, Tesla said it built only 260 Model 3s, a number “less than anticipated due to production bottlenecks.” In fact, Tesla had promised output of 1,500 Model 3s in the quarter, with production of 20,000 vehicles a month by December. By sometime next year, the company said, it plans to be producing 10,000 vehicles a week.”

    Elon Musk is a con man and you believe everything he says, what a fangirl! Why won’t Elon Musk release the full specs of his truck?? Because the promises he makes he cannot keep and the facts would stop people investing.

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