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Are some solutions just too easy?

Does it seem to anyone else that we are in election mode?

In reality, we are always in election mode but both sides seem receptive to ideas at the moment so how about we revisit the extra 58 fighter jets Tony ordered in his first flush of having the keys to the Treasury.

In 2002 John Howard went to the United States and signed Australia up in the early stages of development of the Joint Strike Fighter.

In 2009 it was a Labor government that ordered the first 14 of the aircraft for Australia.

In April 2014 Tony Abbott announced Australia would acquire another 58 Joint Strike Fighters at a cost of around $90 million per plane; $24 billion has been budgeted to purchase and operate the aircraft until 2024.

And while we are at it, do we really need 12 new subs?

In February the Defence Minister said the project will be worth around $50 billion.

Has anyone noticed that we don’t have long range bombers and aircraft carriers either? If we really want to do undersea work wouldn’t it be better done by robot craft/drones for a far smaller cost?

Wouldn’t subsidising the car industry to make low emission cars, building high speed rail, installing FttP NBN, and investing in renewable energy and sustainable practice all bring more jobs and a better return than war toys? The shipyards could build research vessels or hospital ships or cargo vessels – you know, constructive things.

Wouldn’t lifting people from poverty and investing in health, education, and affordable housing be of more benefit to our society?

Wouldn’t investing in childcare and aged care be better than investing in warfare?

Research and foreign aid are surely more important?

Come on Malcolm…think of all that extra money. Think of the jobs that could be created. Scott…you could be a hero. Can we please consider this very easy way to solve so many problems?

 


77 comments

  1. David Bruce

    We spend all this money on defence because we are being programmed for war. Got to protect our banking system at all costs! Can’t have governments in Libya, Syria, Iran and Russia operating outside of the City system! Every other developed and developing country is re-arming; Egypt just took delivery of 2 amphibious assault carriers from France, for pity’s sake!
    But there will be nothing to defend here, unless a reallocation of budget funding is made soon! Our quality of life will no longer be attractive; will we be serfs like the rest of the world?

  2. babyjewels10

    I’m starting to think it’s about big boys’ toys for warmongering egos.

  3. Kaye Lee

    I just don’t understand our role in the Middle East.

    Saudi Arabia spent over $80 billion on military expenditure in 2014. Iraq spent about $19 billion. Turkey spent over $22 billion. Surely they are better placed to know who the baddies are and how to get rid of them?

    What are our six planes and few hundred advisers hoping to achieve?

  4. David

    MorrisonScum wouldn’t be a hero if he replicated Christs Resurrection. The dye was cast the day he became Immigration Minister, otherwise known as ‘Minister for Evil Unlimited’

  5. mars08

    We don’t have long range-bombers, or aircraft carriers. And not much in the way of EW/ECM capability. Why? Well…. essentially because our air force is going to be used as an auxiliary add-on to the US military.

  6. mars08

    @Kaye Lee “What are our six planes and few hundred advisers hoping to achieve?”

    Ummmm… votes in the swinging seats?!!???!!?!

  7. donwreford

    If we had not a third world country and so called first? the haves and the have not’s we the first world should be building up the third world and their educational system as those who are well educated are reluctant to commit themselves to trench warfare as they become more intelligent and realize that to have their body maimed or death is not a desirable outcome.
    The cost of world armament will become more expensive than building the infrastructure of the third world, for all whether or not you live in either the first of third world.

  8. Roscoe

    they can’t find enough crew to man six submarines now, how do they think they will find enough to man twelve?

  9. Kaye Lee

    The Submarine Service has not seen combat since World War I. They apparently carry out surveillance (which one thinks could be done by satellites or planes or communication interception far more effectively if we really MUST spy on people) and they take part in war games.

    Russia turning up in Syria is another reason to draw breath. Shirtfronting cannot be in our interests.

  10. deanyz1

    I have to agree with David Bruce; the banks depend on war to churn more trillions into the banking economy.
    Have a look at all the wars the US has instigated, false flagged and warmongered in its history. The Australian Conservatives tag along accordingly, buying (from the US) very suspect joint strike fighters at tremendous cost. And the poor, the unemployed, the ageing and the infirm are denied basic benefits. Sad, bad days…

  11. miriamenglish

    Very well said Kaye. We have no business making things worse in the Middle East. It is ridiculous for us to spend so much money on devices of war, especially since some of the poorest people in the world proved that the most horrific weapons from the most technologically advanced nation(s) on Earth could not defeat them if they use guerrilla tactics, first in Vietnam, then in Iraq, now in Syria. The nature of war has changed. The old weapons of war are next to useless today — they just hurt bystanders… vast numbers of bystanders. So why the hell are we wasting billions of dollars on them? As you say, we should be using the money where it can do good, not bad.

    But of course that relies upon politicians who have half a brain to share among the pack of them instead of beating their chests and fondling their big war-toys at each other.

  12. Wally

    @miriamenglish totally agree

    If you really want to stop the boats the first thing to stop is going to war. No conflict = no asylum seekers = no boats.

  13. townsvilleblog

    Kaye, Malcolm and Scott are still tories whose outlook does not encompass practical solutions for life’s ills, nice try though.

  14. Kaye Lee

    townsvilleblog,

    I have often thought that Tony’s “housewives” would do a far better job of prioritising expenditure than our politicians. When you have had to live on a shoe-string, work, run a household and raise kids, you get a better perspective on what is important.

  15. Möbius Ecko

    And not much in the way of EW/ECM capability.

    Wrong.

  16. Little divel

    Since 1900 the start of every war Australia has been in, expect one the Liberal party has been in power. Doesn’t that tell you something about the Liberal party.

  17. Neil of Sydney

    Defence spending has bipartisan support. If you do not want to have a defense force you should all vote Greens.

    so how about we revisit the extra 58 fighter jets

    This is wrong. They were not extra. We were always going to order 70-100 F-35’s depending on affordability.

    And while we are at it, do we really need 12 new subs?

    This is what Rudd/Gillard recommended.

    You seem to be saying we should not waste money on military spending. I agree it is a waste but what would happen if Australia did not have a defense force?

  18. Kaye Lee

    A defence force is one thing Neil. A strike force is an entirely different kettle of fish. And I don’t give a rat’s arse who is wasting the money…it remains a waste and bipartisan support only means a few politicians caving in to the empire building of the generals and the armaments manufacturers. Do you think a plebiscite about the acquisition of strike force capability at the cost of hundreds of billions would get the approval of the people?

  19. Michael Lacey

    “War,” as Randolph Bourne wrote, “is the health of the state.” It allows the state to accrue to itself power and resources that in peacetime a citizenry would never permit. And that is why the war state, like the one we live in, has to make certain that we are always afraid. Constant violence by the war machine, we are assured, will alone make us safe.
    “Modern totalitarianism can integrate the masses so completely into the political structure, through terror and propaganda, that they become the architects of their own enslavement,” wrote Dwight Macdonald.

  20. diannaart

    Wouldn’t investing in childcare and aged care be better than investing in warfare?

    ..and risk being called the Nanny Nation by the other boys?

  21. Kaye Lee

    It would be better than being called ‘boy’ and responding to a whistle.

  22. Neil of Sydney

    Do you think a plebiscite about the acquisition of strike force capability at the cost of hundreds of billions would get the approval of the people?

    The question should be, do we need a defense force? I agree, military spending is a total waste of money. But what would countries think if we had no defense force?

    I notice you change the tone by using the word “Strike” rather than defense. Greens do not want to spend money on military.

    But it does annoy me when you say we are ordering an “extra” 58 F-35’s. Currently we have 71 F/A 18 Hornets and 24 F/A 18 Super Hornets. They were always going to be replaced by a similar number of F-35’s

  23. khtagh

    Roscoe, your comment is so right, as an Ex-RAN serviceman I can tell you for a fact they couldn’t find enough to man all our Oberon subs at one time(small crews too, even with only 3 boats out of 6 in service), it was so bad that boats would come in after a 3-6 month trip, instead of people going on over night leave(hadn’t seen partners for the entire time), they would be marched straight onto another boat & leave for another 3-6 month voyage, no ability to get out of it(not even allowed to make a phone call). Lots would go AWOL on a regular basis, due to this situation. No way they will be able to man 12 of those monsters.

  24. Kaye Lee

    Neil,

    You and I are having the closest we have ever come to a discussion. Can we leave parties out of it for a while and just talk about the issue.

    “They were always going to be replaced by a similar number of F-35’s”

    Times change, technology changes, ways of doing things change. Our best defence is to have a happy world, starting with our own country, and then helping others as much as we can.

    Several other countries have pulled out of their orders for the jets. There is much discussion that manned submarines will become obsolete. They won’t be coming for at least a decade. So much will change during that time.

  25. Neil of Sydney

    Our best defence is to have a happy world, starting with our own country, and then helping others as much as we can.

    Well you can live in leftie laa laa land if you want. Same goes with John Lennon and his Imagine song. Actually great thoughts. Would it not be great if we did not have to spend an obscene waste of money on defense. Fact is the world is not like that.

  26. Anomander

    Oh Kaye – don’t you understand that educating people only leads to them asking questions and we can’t have people questioning government motives – they should just accept that our political masters are the experts and they know what’s best for us.

    And lifting people out of poverty isn’t a desirable goal because the only way a functioning economy works is to have an underclass so desperate for money they are prepared to do all the menial jobs for just a few bucks an hour. This also has the benefit of making our business more profitable, as as we all know profitable business men don’t take their money and buy themselves bigger houses, flasher cars and boats, send their kids to more expensive private schools, take longer extravagant holidays, pay more expensive accountants to cleverly structure their finances to avoid tax or donate money to political parties in return for favours – no, they altruistically use that money to employ more desperate people, who welcome the opportunity to work insecure, casual jobs at unsociable hours without any of those uneconomic penalty rates.

    And health – why would we squander our hard-earned tax money on worthless sick or disabled people whose genetic material probably should be removed the gene pool anyway. If they want world class health cover, they should get off their shonky, disabled arses, get a proper job and pay enormous premiums to a private health industry that is nothing but a giant money-making exercise and adds zero value to health outcomes, nor does anything to constrain costs. No, good health cover is best left for those with the means to afford it, so they can get back to work more quickly and accumulate even more money.

    Don’t get me started on welfare – those evil, sponging single mothers who have 6 worthless houso kids 8 different fathers and live a lavish and extravagant lifestyle blowing the welfare on pointless things like nutritious food, when their children are only ever going to grow-up to be low-life criminals. I notice all those dole-bludgers can afford internet and iPhones, which they don’t need while they are sitting around watching daytime soaps, pulling cones, taking ices, surfing and eating chips, instead of getting out and applying for 40 jobs a week. There are plenty of jobs out there – if only they’d get off their lazy arses and get proper, important jobs like being property developers or running high-speed trades on the futures exchange.

    And don’t forget the illegal Muslim boat people who come here and are just given houses and welfare payments 4 times more than those given to pensioners. The buggers won’t work, they have 4 wives and 22 children and they go around wearing burqas, robbing banks, bombing the place, creating fear, putting up mosques on every street corner, forcing their terrorist-funding Hahal food down our throats, refusing to assimilate, and undermining our good Christian values of racism, bigotry, intolerance and xenophobia. How are we supposed to fund important things like the School Chaplains program, teaching creationism, subsidising wealthy private or religious schools and offering religious organisations tax free status, to run if we keep sending billions of dollars to overseas countries?

    Why should blow our tax dollars also fund the lifestyle of black people, just because they happened to be living her for 60,000 years (which as everyone knows is bullshit because according to the Bible, the world is 5,000 years old). We are propping-up these people who want to live in the bush and sit around sniffing petrol, drinking and belting their missus and proclaiming some connection to our land? I mean they never even had a proper civilisation anyway and they should thank us for coming here and taking their worthless land off them and saving their kids by removing them from their families and putting them with white people to civilise and teach them good Christian values (see above).

    Seriously – the climate and environment doesn’t need our help. Weather has been around almost forever and it changes all the time – I mean it’s bloody cold here today, so all the stories about global warming are crap – everyone knows it’s a giant conspiracy by the extremists greenies and all the world’s scientists to push their socialist agenda and send us back to the dark ages and impose a UN take-over where they can force vaccinate everyone with chemtrails. Besides if those greenies were so serious about the climate, why are they driving cars, using computers and planes? They should be walking everywhere and surviving on their vego-organic food that costs us all 10 times the price of normal Aussie food like Thai, KFC and Pizza Hut. And why would we bother saving the environment when it’s just useless bush that gets made into national parks or marine sanctuaries, in which you can’t even go fishing, shooting or driving your 4WD any more? Besides, I never go there and if the ocean rises – my air-conditioned 5 bedroom, 6 bathroom mcmansion with media room is on a hill and my 2 Holden HSV’s, boat and the wife’s Beemer will all be safe.

    Don’t you know about the prevailing ideology of trickle-down economics? It works exceptionally well, particularly if you’re one of those doing the trickling onto everyone else, like mining billionaires, CEOs or mega corporations. By accumulating such vast sums of money they are effectively keeping it safe from governments (who as everyone knows – can’t be trusted) because they would only want to squander it on unnecessary things like science, technology, education, health, welfare and infrastructure to win votes. No, it’s far better to have that money held by the wealthy because you have to be smart to be rich, so when they use than money and influence to dictate government policy, you know those ideas are coming from some pretty smart people. Clever people who know how to use tax havens and realise we can’t afford to splurge our money on extravagant things like the NBN (just so the unemployed can download movies faster and post nasty messages about the government on social media/digital grafitti) or on public transport that is only ever used by chardonnay-swilling, latte-sipping, inner-city, trendy extremists who only watch the biased ABC, which also should be sold off and replaced with the very moderate and eminently sensible Murdoch Fox news.

    As proud Aussies, who fought and died repeatedly to have been born into a land of such wealth, resources and freedom, at the safest, most progressive time time in human history, it is vital we use every means possible to defend our lifestyle – and the best way we can do that is to buy effing big boats and expensively fast planes from the US military machine, which can then deploy to stop anyone coming here on boats and fight wars in foreign countries, generally in oil-rich desert countries on the other side of the globe, where we can happily watch on our 70 inch LED screens, cheering on our brave military men as they bomb the shit out of innocent people, and send their country back into the dark ages and forcing them to flee, overwhelming neighbouring countries – all in the name of defending our freedom against those sicko gays who want to undermine the sanctity of marriage and pervert our children with their progressive, Atheist beliefs, science evolutionary rubbish, and build those unsightly wind-turbines that make people sick hundreds of kilometres away, instead of taking the tried and tested path of publicly funding private rail lines and port developments and massively subsidising the digging-up coal or fracking for gas and selling it for a profit to dumb foreigners – a practice that has served us well for decades and will do so for at least several more centuries.

    It’s also vital that we recognise the criticality of our pollies and pay them accordingly – to attract the best performers that are going to stimulate our economy through revolutionary ideas like free trade and privatisaton of inefficient income-producing public assets. It is crucial we should fully support them in their difficult jobs by making sure they have access to overseas study tours, flights, helicopters, cars, accommodation, rental assistance for their spouse’s properties and meals, while they do their important job of shaking hands, taking photos in high-vis gear and sucking the cocks of the captains of industry, while designing new 3-word slogans and perpetual election campaigns, which aren’t cheap to run, you know.

    Oh yeah. We need the government to be very careful about our tax money – to spend it wisely and not just squander it.

  27. Kaye Lee

    ^^^^ Yup, that just about covers it Anomander. 🙁

  28. Kaye Lee

    Neil,

    “Fact is the world is not like that.”

    So let’s go about changing that. Let’s make our contribution helping people rather than harming them. It’s better for all concerned.

    I know this is “leftie waffle” but I have made a few suggestions to go with it.

    I could go on and on about the value of foreign aid and our defence forces REAL forte in providing disaster relief, humanitarian aid, rebuilding, evacuation, search and rescue, peacekeeping, emergency medical response etc etc none of which requires jet fighters or submarines.

  29. Anomander

    Thanks Kaye. Alas, I think I may have missed a few items. 🙁

  30. Kaye Lee

    It’s impossible to include everything because they keep on coming.

    “Commercial fishing would be allowed in sensitive coral reefs and pristine waters off Australia under advice set to be presented to the Turnbull government that discards landmark marine protections, conservationists say.

    Critics say the review of 40 marine reserves is also unlikely to curtail the oil and gas industry, which is pushing for better access to Australia’s seabeds.

    It follows the government’s controversial decision to allow petroleum exploration in areas identified as marine sanctuaries while the review was under way.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/pristine-oceans-under-threat-from-fishing-and-mining-after-government-review-say-conservationists-20150922-gjs5hk.html

  31. consensus

    really? you want common sense to rule over lies and warmongering?

    wont happen until first you stop them lying about all these imaginary threats, expose the fact that it is us, us and our allies that are the true threat to world peace.

    could start by exposing the lies of 9/11 first, all the hard work has been done, yet some, still find it to hard to accept, even when the irrefutable evidence is laid out in front of them.

    http://www.consensus911.org/

    If you let them get away with 9/11… then youre just asking to be lied to, over and over again. and they will.

  32. Kaye Lee

    The 9/11 conspiracy is an unnecessary distraction. We are not achieving anything by our involvement in the Middle East. They have the military capacity themselves should they choose to use it. We must provide shelter for the innocent victims caught in the crossfire.

    Another thing I do not understand. We can bring whole countries to their knees by imposing economic sanctions. How can a bunch of misfit teenagers committing atrocities like they are playing an x rated video game possibly form a self-sufficient nation? They say they have taken control of refineries but that is of no use unless someone buys the oil from them. Surely it can’t be that hard to find where the pipelines go? They are apparently kidnapping people and collecting ransom to get them back….that can only go on for so long. Where are all the weapons coming from? Where is the food coming from? Where are all those white trucks coming from?

    It is impossible to believe that the money and supplies cannot be traced.

  33. consensus

    congratulations numpty… you said “conspiracy” – that means you have nothing other than name calling to fall back on.

    check out the link – there is nothing there but FACTS –

    “The Panel employs a methodology used in medicine to generate consensus statements of the best available evidence on specific topics. During the survey process, the expert respondents remain blind to one another through three rounds of revision and feedback.

    Over a four-year period the Consensus Panel has published 46 Points of evidence refuting the official story.”

    THE OFFICIAL ACCOUNT IS A LIE – AN IMPOSSIBLE LIE!!!!

  34. Anomander

    You may say I’m “a dreamer”. But I’m not the ONLY one.

  35. Neil of Sydney

    We are not achieving anything by our involvement in the Middle East.

    It should be mentioned that it was the ALP/Hawke govt who got us involved in the Middle East.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawke_Government#Gulf_War

    In the biggest mobilisation of Australian Forces since the Vietnam War, the Government committed Australian naval forces to the 1991 Gulf War in support of the United States led coalition against the regime of Saddam Hussein, following the invasion of oil-rich Kuwait by Iraq on 2 August 1990.[47]

  36. consensus

    @ michael taylor, i was responding in the manner i was addressed, ie; called a “conspiracy theorist” but whatever..
    9/11 is what is used to justify all the illegal immoral wars, the bombs we have to buy, the muslims we have to fear the rights and liberties we have to lose etc.. to say it is a distraction, couldnt be further from the truth.

    “The Panel employs a methodology used in medicine to generate consensus statements of the best available evidence on specific topics. During the survey process, the expert respondents remain blind to one another through three rounds of revision and feedback.

    Over a four-year period the Consensus Panel has published 46 Points of evidence refuting the official story.”

    these are facts.. not conspiracy… the official account of 9/11 is by definition, a conspiracy theory.

    there, was that polite enough for ya?

  37. mars08

    @Kaye Lee… you clearly live in lefty laalaa land. Because, if we don’t have submarines, and strike fighters and frigates and tanks… someone will invade and occupy this magnificent nation. Maybe China or Fiji… or someone …

  38. consensus

    @ Kaye
    ” How can a bunch of misfit teenagers committing atrocities like they are playing an x rated video game possibly form a self-sufficient nation? ”

    if you mean isis, or isil, or daesh? or whatever name we refer to them today.. they are not a bunch of misfit teenagers.. they are trained, funded, supplied and protected by the west, another concocted bogeyman.. ya see… more lies, on the back of the lies of 9/11

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/search?q=isis

    what we really need in this country, is our media to grow some, and simply expose the lies. could start with so called “alternate” media..

  39. Michael Taylor

    Consensus, for your info I believe there are lots of unanswered questions around 9/11, but that’s not what this article is about.

  40. Michael Taylor

    Neil said:

    It should be mentioned that it was the ALP/Hawke govt who got us involved in the Middle East.

    Neil fails to add that it was UN sanctioned.

    Buy again, this is not what this post is about. Neil just wanted an opportunity to bag Labor.

  41. Anomander

    Every war in history is all Labor’s fault, eh Neil?

  42. Wally

    Neil of Sydney

    You missed a very important part of the source you quoted. “The United States amassed a 30 nation coalition of some 30,000 troops”

    Unlike the Howard government who did whatever was asked of by the US government including acts of war that were NOT sanctioned by the UN, the Hawke government committed resources to assist the UN along with 29 other countries.

    The acts of the Hawke and the Howard governments were not the same or related in any way.

  43. Michael Taylor

    Not just wars, Anomander. Every catastrophe or failure whether as the result of nature or human involvement . . . is Labor’s fault. Even the Carrington Event was Labor’s fault.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

  44. Wally

    Anomander

    Everything bad that has happened full stop is Labors fault.

    And anything good is directly the result of good LNP governance.

    The world through the eyes of Neil of Sydney!

  45. diannaart

    People are Labor’s fault – only machine men allowed in neo-con Neil’s Australia.

  46. consensus

    @ Michael.. I know what this article is about.. it is about easy solutions to current problems.
    The easiest solution, is to expose the liars and lies of 9/11, which is being used to justify all the things that are being complained about here, and to finally, get some sort of justice. There is no way we can go forward, until the lies are exposed.

    Im glad you believe there are unanswered questions about 9/11.. that puts you in the majority .. you should – as you are in a position to, ( being involved with admin here ) do something about it maybe 😀

    anyway.. I’ll not bother you any more here.. but unless we are willing to make our voices heard, and demand answers to the unanswered questions you have, all the complaining in the world about how stupid it is being in the middle east isn’t going to change a thing.

    the consensus is in. It’s such an easy solution.

    PS. if you, or someone here in admin, do an article on how it is not unreasonable to call for, because of all the evidence that shows the official account to be impossible.. finally, a proper independent transparent, unfettered investigation into 9/11 – because to date, all we have is G W Bush pointing in Osamas direction saying, “yeah, that’s him man!”, then I’ll donate $100 to this website.

  47. Anomander

    I have it on good authority from a Liberal source close to Corgi Bernardi that the ructions caused by Gillard and Rudd rippled back through time and caused both the explosion at Krakatoa and the meteor strike in Tunguska.

    This same person assured me that Tony Abbott’s elevation to Prime Minister rippled forward in time to 2 March 2017 and stopped a cosmic radiation blast in the Andromeda that would have wiped out all life on the planet.

    Personally, if Abbott had still been PM in 2017, I would have welcomed the event as a final release from the unrelenting idiocy.

    I’ve often thought about trying to observe the world from Neil’s point of view, but decided against smashing away half my brain with a brick.

  48. Kaye Lee

    consensus,

    Your response to me shows you see attacks where there are none – doesn’t help your credibility.

  49. consensus

    @ Kaye
    “The 9/11 conspiracy is an unnecessary distraction”
    the inference – that I am a “conspiracy theorist” is plainly there, however ignorant, banal and puerile it is. I am happy to have my credibility compared to yours, as I, for one.. do not believe the impossible joke, that is your “9/11 conspiracy theory”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98

    if you can show me ONE thing that is wrong on the link i posted, ill pay another $100 to this website.. if you cant, how about you pay $100 to a charity of your choice.

    credibility…. bwahahahahaha

    PS.. If my comment is now undeleted.. why was it deleted in the first place? *shrugs*

  50. Kaye Lee

    I regularly donate to charity without having to be dared to do so. I repeat, I have no interest in the 9/11 conspiracy. And could you please stop telling me what I mean because you are wrong. The word “conspiracy” means a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. It does not mean consensus is a lunatic.

  51. diannaart

    Until recently we have endured Neil “it was Labor wot dun it” of Sydney, claiming lefties as the cause of all human misery…. now, thanks to Consensus, we have 9/11 as the cause of everything – fix that and we’ll fix climate change and the passage of time will reinvent itself so that Abbott never was our PM.

    Hmmm… could be a good thing… “turn back time” – there’s a song in that…

  52. Kaye Lee

    Stephen Conroy just said that rumour has it that the defence white paper will cut the number of subs from 12 to 8 and he is saying this will not give us the strategic cover or the economies of scale we need. Labor wants more war toys than the Libs. I give up. Dump the lot of them. They have all lost perspective.

  53. Roswell

    I too think 9/11 was an inside job but what’s the point in writing about it? We are not experts and besides, we’d only be repeating what someone else has said.

    And I don’t think that putting up articles about 9/11 would give this site any credibility.

    I prefer seeing articles like Kaye’s et al where the focus is on current and local issues.

  54. Roswell

    I wish Conroy was still in charge of our NBN.

  55. consensus

    I didnt dare you to donate to charity..
    it was more along the lines of put your money where your mouth is.. if you are so sure what Im saying is wrong, Im more than happy to put my money where my mouth is.

    you say I have no credibility, because i called you out for your “conspiracy theorist” inference.

    i know very well the definition of conspiracy, and don’t need your definition of anything… the term conspiracy theorist, has been used derogatively, since 9/11, to shout down anyone who questions the official account of 9/11.

    what “conspiracy” are you referring to when you say you have no interest in the 9/11 conspiracy? when you use the term “911 conspiracy” the official account? because that is where there was conspiracy. it is what is commonly referred to as a false flag.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-first-question-to-ask-after-any-terror-attack-was-it-a-false-flag/5423463

    ” “Kaye Lee August 28, 2015 at 9:58 am

    honey bunch, the 9/11 conspiracy theory has been debated at length on this site. Do you seriously believe that the government orchestrated the death of thousands of their own citizens and hundreds of millions of dollars of property damage? Do you have any idea how many people would have had to be complicit in that and then keep it quiet? Actually, never mind. Note to self…learn to ignore.”

    you believe in the official account and were calling me a “conspiracy theorist” – stop pretending otherwise.

  56. consensus

    @ Roswell,
    “I prefer seeing articles like Kaye’s et al where the focus is on current and local issues.”

    my point is.. no matter how common sense Kayes alternative spending options are, simply writing

    “Come on Malcolm…think of all that extra money. Think of the jobs that could be created. Scott…you could be a hero. Can we please consider this very easy way to solve so many problems?”

    will do absolutely nothing….

    exposing the lies – will force them to stop. and 9/11 is a local issue, it affects the whole world, and we are still fighting wars, on the back of the lies of 9/11, so it is still current.

  57. Kaye Lee

    Then write an article and submit it consensus. That is sufficient on 9/11. Thanks.

  58. diannaart

    Seriously…

    If we just print the ‘truth’ about 9/11 – First Nation people will be acknowledged as custodians of Australia, domestic violence will stop, governments around the world will start investing in renewables, mining companies will repair all their environmental damage, business monopolies will be transformed into local, competitive, sustainable and independent (of people who have no need of any more money), women will be represented equally in all levels of society (along with people who don’t have pasty white skin), education will be considered a necessity for all, everyone will be safe and secure in quality affordable housing and the previous years since Howard all just a bad dream…

  59. Kaye Lee

    The Pope is doing a good job in the States talking about everything conservatives don’t want to hear.

    China and the US are talking about an ETS.

    And another woman has been killed by her partner 🙁

  60. Anomander

    I for one would prefer to focus on contemporary issues and try to influence changes that will affect the course of our future.

    While it’s is important to learn lessons from past events, unless you have a time machine and can go back and change things – dwelling on them is merely a distraction from the tasks at hand.

  61. diannaart

    …but Kaye…. outing the truth of 9/11 means no more men beating up on women (and vice a versa to a lesser extent – I mean how many men have been murdered by women this year?)… of course there are plenty of murders of men BY men…. sorry..um… what?… think I have lost my train of thought…. something about time starting on 11/9/2001….

  62. Kaye Lee

    Greg Hunt and Scott Morrison are having a hard time transitioning from the bs Abbott rhetoric. Malcolm should grab this opportunity to introduce a cap and trade aspect to direct action or we will find ourselves facing trade sanctions sooner or later or an enormous bill to try and ramp up reductions.

    Why do journalists never pull Greg Hunt up on his rubbish lies?

  63. Anomander

    Our journalists have forgotten what it takes to actually be a journalist nowadays. Their job is simply to record the messages of the government and replay them.

    No wonder journalism is a dying industry. I barely read mainstream media any more – much preferring to get my info from sources that actually ask relevant questions, do some analysis and put some thought into reporting.

  64. miriamenglish

    Anomander, I loved your long cynical, sarcastic spiel above. I chuckled and laughed all the way through. I wonder how many people would nod and agree with it, not seeing the joke.

  65. Wally

    Anomander

    Does the Murdock press still employ journalists?

    I recently read an article in the HS about a car accident, after rereading it 4-5 times I still couldn’t work out who crashed into who or which cars occupants were injured. The so called article was grade 6-7 level.

  66. miriamenglish

    The oddly self-named “consensus” doesn’t seem to have noticed that publishing the “truth” about 9/11 appears to have changed absolutely nothing at all. In fact if one takes a good look at the “evidence” in such conspiracy theory sites it generally amounts to little more than wild-eyed postulations and hypothesising along with a hefty scoop of bad science.

    The reason “consensus” gets his knickers all in such a bunch is because his self-identity has become so tied to his beliefs that any mention of something that might appear to dent his world-view brings him to full-on, frothing-mouth, attack mode. That, right there, has always been one of the biggest threats to civilised society: those people whose self-identity has become so attached to a concept or worldview that any alternatives are taken as attacks upon them. They are the ideologues, the devoutly, inflexibly religious, the cultists, the superstitious, the people who think concepts/structure/money are more important than human lives.

  67. consensuss

    just one thing miriamenglish, show one of the consensus points that are wrong on that “conspiracy” website, and earn this blog a $100 donation..

  68. miriamenglish

    I guess you mean the consensus911 website? I’ve looked at it and it is full of innuendo; nothing solid. This is typical for those who prefer sensationalism over facts.

    You asked for just one point that’s wrong. Okay. I’ll give you a few.

    The “Able Danger coverup” about Mohamed Atta being in the country longer than other spooks (I presume the FBI, among others) knew about, and that this is evidence the 9/11 attacks was intentional.
    This is a logical error. The USA has, I think about 12 major spook organisations who are insanely jealous about their secrets and have a long history of not sharing with each other. Far from being evidence of a shadowy USA organisation being behind the attacks it is simply yet more evidence of the childishly stupid spook organisations inside USA and how their unwillingness to share information is perhaps one of the few things about those organisations that keeps the people over there safer from them. The day they join together and truly share will be a terrifying day for those living in USA.

    The idea that predictions of further attacks that day indicate insider knowledge into the 9/11 attacks.
    This is a really silly error. People predict attacks all the time. That prominent people who live their lives constantly marinated in paranoia and fear would say that further attacks were coming is no surprise at all. Do you really think that if it was an inside job that was so efficient as to squash all evidence that prominent people involved would get on the radio and blather about more attacks? Really?

    The idea that NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) is covering up and not doing a proper investigation.
    This one is a case of making up something and pointing to it as “evidence”. They were asked to investigate why the buildings collapsed. They made a very careful and thorough investigation into that including running complex simulations that took months to run. They found out how the towers failed and why they collapsed. The idea that they didn’t continue the investigation into the aftermath of that failure means they were covering something up is absurd. They did what they were meant to do: find out why they collapsed. What was the point in working on the mechanics of the falling building after it had started collapsing? At the point collapse was a certainty they had done what they were supposed to do: find out how they could design standards to make sure something like this can’t happen again.

    I’m sure there are lots more misleading stuff and plain errors, but I have more important things to do with my day.

    AIMN will be very grateful for your $100 donation.

    Michael, can you let us know if he keeps his word?

  69. Kyran

    The prospect of an endless election mode is terrifying. From my observation, the poli’s use election cycles to sprout general, aspirational spin, which historically would be fleshed out in their term of government with detailed policy. The permanent election mode has led to the permanent ‘spin’ mode.
    “Wouldn’t lifting people from poverty and investing in health, education, and affordable housing be of more benefit to our society?”
    This sentiment is reflected in an article on recent OECD reports on inequality, which says, in part;
    “But the OECD also argues that even more important are measures focused on the bottom 40 per cent of income earners, including child care, health, housing and particularly education.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-25/steketee-put-inequality-on-the-agenda-alongside-growth/6802746
    Anomander’s wonderful comment (25/9, 10.00am) was eerily similar to the comments under the ABC article. As posed by miriamenglish, “I wonder how many people would nod and agree with it, not seeing the joke.” As evidenced by the comments, I would suggest “lots!”.
    Thank you Ms Lee. Take care

  70. Anomander

    Wouldn’t that be three separate $100 donations Miriam?

  71. Kaye Lee

    Popular Mechanics did a whole in depth debunking. Then the truthers did a debunk debunk. What is the point? I reiterate, it is purely a distraction from what we need to do now. We cannot change the past but we CAN do something about the future. I am also concerned about government secrecy and we must demand more transparency and accountability. I don’t have the energy to waste looking backwards looking for blame – call for change for the future. There are already countless examples of governments doing wrong things like incarcerating people on Manus and Nauru.

  72. Möbius Ecko

    miriamenglish at 10:35 am

    Point 2.

    The MSM in this country have been right 9 times out of 27 on leadership spills.

  73. Anomander

    I totally agree Kaye – it is pointless rehashing 911 over and over again, when there is a simpler solution.

    I’ve been re-watching HG Wells – The Time Machine for the 8th time (I must say it was prescient and quite inspired to cast the entire Abbott government as the Morlocks and Australian voting public as the Eloi).

    I’ve been studying Doctor Who in depth (all the way back to the original series) and and I’ve watched all episodes of Back to the Future (several times over), Continuum, 12 Monkeys, you name it, I’ve seen it – so I have a pretty good idea what I’m talking about when it comes to time travel.

    Using my extensive expertise I’m now constructing a time machine so we can answer these questions about 911 once and for all, but before I loan it to you guys, I just need to go back and kick the fathers of some infamous people in the balls.

    I’ll be back before you even know I’m gone – hopefully.

  74. consensuss

    for kaye.. re popular mechanics idiocy – hardly scientific..it has been pointed out to you before, elsewhere on this site, but you keep acting as if it is gospel..
    here it is again..
    http://www1.ae911truth.org/faqs/676-debunking-popular-mechanics.html

    miriamenglish – before you embarrass yourself any further by highlighting your reading comprehension difficulties, just give up. even NIST admit begrudgingly building 7 fell at freefall acceleration for ~2.5 seconds.. i doubt you comprehend the significance of that.. but NIST does.

    re keeping my word.. first you have to show what they say is wrong.. you havnt done that.. not even close.. ill keep my word.. and perhaps the editors here can stop censoring me.. what are they scared of? truth?

  75. miriamenglish

    You’re quite right of course, Kaye. I just thought it would be a quick way to raise some funds for AIMN, but I must admit I kinda expected “consensuss” would be dishonest. If people like that attach themselves so steadfastly to an idea that they view any attack on the idea as a personal attack on themselves then there is not really much hope for showing them flaws in their thinking. They are not honest with themselves, let alone with others. I should have known better. Sorry.

  76. konsensus

    miriam english.. you can not really expect me to cough up the money just because in your unqualified opinion, you think something is silly.

    to show that any of the consensus points is wrong, it must be done by someone with the appropriate qualifications and someone who is acting with the authority of the government, that is , those making the claims countered by the consensus points. good luck with that.

    Regarding the NIST modelling of building 7, if you had done any research at all, you would see, like any ten year old is able to, that the modelling in no way resembles real world events, and in order for that modelling to be scientific, the experiment must be able to be replicated, however, that is impossible because NIST will not release the input data, for reasons of “national security”.

    there is plenty of flawed thinking here, but it is not mine, what I am saying, and what the majority of the world is saying, is that it is not unreasonable to hold a proper investigation, because the story we are told, has been proven to be wrong. and it doesnt matter how many stories magazines like popular mechanics write, it won’t change that.

    we have a global war on terror you say you want to stop, based on the lies of 9/11. If you don’t think exposing those lies is an important part of the solution, then you are part of the problem./

    @ Ed. how about leaving the comment this time? censorship just shows you want to hide things

  77. 5ime0n

    I say, the idea of floating hospitals and research vessels sounds like the Australia, indeed the planet, I would prefer to call home.

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