House Music: Welfare Reform and Drug Testing
This is the first of a weekly blog about Parliamentary Business. This week: Social Security Amendment (Welfare Reform) Bill, Senate Committee Inquiry and a Petition against Drug Testing for Welfare Recipients.
Every week, I will discuss selected Bills,Petitions and Committee Inquiries. Where appropriate, I will discuss Matters of Public Importance raised in Parliament. Through this weekly blog, I also hope to create awareness about the APH website and encourage active interaction.
Bills
Social Security Amendment Bill (Welfare Reform)
Quick Recap: (Not the entire list)
- Will remove seven current payments and reduce them to one jobseeker payment.
(Remove: Widow B Pension, Wife Pension, Bereavement Allowance, Sickness Allowance, Widow Allowance, Partner Allowance) and - Establishment of a drug testing trial and
- Removal of exemptions for drug and alcohol dependence and
- Changes to Reasonable Excuses and
- New Targeted Compliance Framework and
- Claim Provisions (Benefits will no longer be backdated to date of claim)
Discussion
Please note: this section is a discussion, therefore it is from my own point of view. Please read the official Explanatory Note because this will explain the information as tabled.
Streamlining Payments – Everyone is a Jobseeker
It appears the Government’s aim is to punish as many welfare recipients as possible. Even those with a reasonable excuse.
Therefore, bereaved, widowed and incapacitated due to illness are all now “Jobseekers” under this Bill.
Even those genuinely incapacitated will need to participate in jobsearch.
These individuals will be scooped up into the same nauseating bucket the Liberals carry around at their sides filled with condemnation and labelled “Bludgers.”
Widow and Wife’s Pension
Since at least the 1990’s Governments have changed access to the Widow’s pension and Wife’s pension. These pensions are primarily the domain of women, because they are now unable to rely on a husband’s income due to his illness or death. This is another move to completely cancel these payments. Hence, my view is that they should be revisited and reinstated – not abolished.
These recipients, mainly women, are not bludgers. They are often active in family life and the community. Individual case managers should support Mature-Aged jobseekers in a voluntary program. A 20-year-old at a counter telling them that they haven’t done enough, should not exist. They should not live in fear they will be ‘cut off’ because they are the mercy of the system.
A Blow to Mature Aged Jobseekers
Mature-aged jobseekers are currently able to participate in voluntary work. This will no longer be the case. Are the Liberals suspicious this is a ‘loophole’ to avoid paid work? That is how The explanatory note reads to me. The vile deep bucket labelled “Bludgers” now includes volunteers.
Schedule 9 – Changes to activity tests for persons aged 55 to 59
The Liberal Party does not value the contribution of volunteers (particularly women). Many mature aged women and men, who have not worked, would have a history of active participation in the community and schools. In addition, they often perform caring duties for grandchildren, because formal childcare is difficult to access and punishment is ludicrous, because this is a valuable contribution to society.
Mature Aged Jobseekers, seek employment, often because of illness, death and/or bereavement of a loved one and therefore should participate in voluntary jobsearch. Jobsearch can have an emotional toll on a mature aged individual, therefore, specialised case managers who understand this demographic need to support this group.This is because the sudden requirement for jobsearch can be a shock and furthermore is a huge disruption to their regular routine.
Financial Penalties – Every Single Time – For Everyone
The nature and extent of jobseeker compliance is harsher in terms of punishment and wider in the scope of recipients it is proposed to encompass.
I would describe the widening and intensity of financial penalties as ‘welfare punishment creep.’
This term describes the growing number of welfare recipients financial penalties apply to and the increasing lack of consideration and reasoning for which penalties are applied.
This new Bill recommends a financial penalty to all jobseekers, with no consideration for a reasonable excuse, it appears.
This Bill proposes:
and
This section in the explanatory memorandum reads as if the Liberal Party has the assumption that ‘every welfare recipient is trying to rip off the system, and they will find any excuse to get out of working‘. Do the Liberals see all welfare recipients as underhanded and dishonest? Did you really think they would stop at cheezel eating X-Box players?
Drug Trials
This Bill also introduces the ‘infamous’ drug testing for welfare recipients. Also, see here for previous posts relating to welfare and drug testing and false positives.
Welfare recipients are required to agree with participation in drug testing:
The Government’s Mantra
The Government is implementing these drug trials under the premise that drug tests will show that jobseekers are not willing and able to participate in jobsearch.
A one off drug test may not show any indication of long-term or chronic drug use. Drug tests may not indicate the individual is unable to participate in jobsearch. In addition, as different tests test within the limitation of different time frames and this will not always ensure natural justice.
Urinary Drug Testing
This picks up drugs in a person’s system 3-4 days prior. This does not indicate chronic drug use or the inability to jobsearch or indicate impairment to work.
Hair Testing
This will only show drugs used at least four weeks prior
This means that not only are the most recent three to four weeks invisible, but so too are drugs used prior to the growing time of the hair tested. This approach approximately samples from a month prior to hair collection back as far as four months prior to hair collection depending on the length of the hair sample.
This means that a jobseeker is penalised, even if they are in a period of cessation.
..if the cessation of drug use does not extend back to further than four months prior to sample collection, the subject may argue that any drug found reflects use prior to the time of cessation.
The other concern is that chronic drug users will simply shift to drugs because they are not detected in hair testing or urine testing. Especially relevant is one such drug is GBH (liquid ecstasy).
GBH is the drug that saw 21 people hospitalised earlier this year.
Testing requires rigorous standards. Otherwise, contamination can occur. The NATA information paper also indicates that false negatives and false positives can occur.
Vulnerable People and the Right to Fairness
It is vital that welfare recipients experience compassion and fairness.
Another concern is jobseekers who are on psychiatric medication can return a false positive (see linked article above). Statistics also show that many individuals who are drug dependent have a comorbidity of mental illness.
The Australian Government’s own Department of Health and Aging reports that:
Comorbidity or the co-occurrence of mental disorders and substance use disorders is common.
The DMS-5 classifies Drug and Alcohol Abuse as a disorder.
“… substance use disorder describes a problematic pattern of using alcohol or another substance that results in impairment in daily life or noticeable distress.”
Therefore, individuals are at greater risk if they have a psychiatric disorder, with a co-morbidity of drug addiction, or have a substance abuse disorder.
In addition, it is this specific group who are most likely to not have the self-efficacy to use the complaints system.
Fairness is an issue. When we are dealing with the most vulnerable in society, this is a major concern.
If the Government is concerned about substance abuse, they should invest in prevention and support services and not punitive welfare.
Please see the petition below and sign it!
Australian Liberals – Wanna Be UK Tories
These types of measures of consolidating payments is in line with the approach of the UK Conservative Party. This was largely rejected by the Social Welfare Sector in the UK.
The Sickness that is the UK Conservative Party is on display right now. That is thanks to Jeremy Corbyn. No credit to the former UKLabour party given. Do we really want to vote for a Government that follows suit? We are the country of the fair go. Not a country of abject poverty.
Senate Committee Inquiry
The Social Security Amendment (Welfare Reform) Bill has concluded it’s second reading and is now referred to the Senate Standing Committees on Community Affairs. This committee covers Health, Social Services and Human Services.
Individuals and organisations can submit their opinions or proposals to the committee for consideration. Here is the information on how to write and submit a submission.
Submissions should be received by 4 August 2017. The reporting date is 4 September 2017.
There is not a lot of time to participate in feedback on this Bill, therefore, if you are against these changes, I would encourage you to write a submission as a direct protest.
Signing change.org petitions and sharing memes have their purpose, however, a submission is a direct voice to the Committee considering the Bill.
Petitions
Many people regularly sign online petitions using platforms such as change.org, however, I would like to raise awareness that there are always petitions online in Federal and State Parliaments.
In fact, The House can only accept e-petitions that have been submitted via its e-petitions website. Signatures from other electronic or paper petitions cannot be added to your petition.
The petitions page is worth bookmarking. Submitting petitions to parliament (State and Federal) and supporting official petitions submitted to Parliament is also critical in the stand against an issue.
To support a Petition: Click on the Petition Link. Complete your details, tick the terms and conditions box, go to your email and confirm your signature.
Standing up for progress – Achievement Unlocked!
Petition: Drug Testing of Welfare Recipients
We ask that the House reject the Government’s proposed trial, preventing the invasive and stigmatising practice of mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients.
Petition Number
EN0256
Petition Address
To the Hon. Speaker of the House of Representatives and Members of the House of Representatives
Petition Of
Certain citizens of Australia
Petition Reason
The petitioners request that the House reject the Government’s proposed trial of drug testing for welfare recipients.
The petitioners request that the House reject the Government’s proposed trial of drug testing for welfare recipients. The suggested “random” selection of subjects by profiling people thought to be high risk will lead to discriminatory selection, while income quarantine and compulsory treatment are ineffective measures that will further marginalise the vulnerable. Rather than supporting people into employment, this will force those with substance abuse problems to disengage with the system and seek other means to support themselves. This reflects the experience of other jurisdictions, where mandatory testing has proven expensive and ineffective. Such resources would be better targeted towards supporting our overburdened treatment sector, as metropolitan and regional service providers continue to be understaffed and underfunded.
Petition Request
We ask that the House reject the Government’s proposed trial, preventing the invasive and stigmatising practice of mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients.
I hope you enjoyed this first weekly review of Parliamentary Business. Until next week…
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39 comments
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Trevor Vivian -
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Freethinker -
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Freethinker -
helvityni -
Freethinker -
Trish Corry -
Freethinker -
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Trish Corry -
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Freethinker -
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Freethinker -
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Kaye Lee -
Freethinker -
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Return to home pageWhy do LNP politoxics believe that welfare recipients are ripping the system and can all be lumped as bludgers?? I would suggest that these gormless LNP politoxics are feeling twangs of guilt at the way they Rort the Parliamentary allowances and every other system of financial opportunity open to these entitled pricks. The twangs of guilt do not last long as after furtively rorting then they move into professional rorting, with a self assurredness that sellers of the Sydney Harbour Bridge attain after the first few failed attempts to scam. Once these LNP politoxics realise that rather than being punished for rorting they find themselves rewarded, as the wheels of corrupt behaviour ensnare them fully and any thought of guilt is left far behind in the mad scramble to secure their political Sinicure for life. And so the poor, the welfare recipient become pawns in this venomous diatribe spewed forth by LNP politoxics. The hatred of self is the progenitor of hatred of others and these politoxics in the present Parliament are enthusiastic converts to pernicious policy, in the same vein as the worst criminal. The crimes against electors unveiled by the LNP show a class of exceptional liars and ethics and moral free actions worthy of placement with the most violent, hatefilled regimes ever known. The only difference between The LNP and those regimes is Australian Law presently disallows them openly killing those they hate, being the poor and welfare recipients.
Welcome to the new Reich.
Repulsive, repulsive government.
These immoral LNPs have been VERY busy behind the scenes taking apart our welfare system! I’m sure most people will be unaware of it until it hits them. It must be the most shameful act perpetrated against the people of Australia.
Drug test the unemployed is a waste of time and money.From the party alleged to be against a “nanny state” and for “small government” – Hypocrites,and a fascist policy.
All this unemployment bashing is to distract from the governments failure of “jobs and growth”.
Must be opposed by Labor,Greens and….
Great initiative Trish! Sooo interesting to see the detail within these things unlocked, as they say, the devil is in the detail. The Liberals are always trying to control, demean, belittle, hound and harrass people. Secure in their high salary/perk positions, handsome lifetime income gauranteed, these policies are quite divorced from reality. Taking an overview, it seens to me that the idea of a basic income comes into play here. Countless people in their 50s are finding it near impossible to find a traditional job, when made redundant. Surely we should be considering a basic income scenario because with “digital disruption” there are going to be so many more of us needing support.
When looking at how countries rank on the socially progressive index, you’ll find that Finland and the Scandinavian countries always seem to do well, so do Canada, and Holland…
The Coalition government will try they very best to drag Australia lower on the list, I believe NZ is creeping up….
The Liberal Government, actually doesn’t legitimately “care” for any Australian or its assets. It is a business ( and people, including LOYAL Liberal voters, don’t see this fact) that takes whatever they can, gives profits to it’s benefactors (i.e. themselves and their big business friends – that give rewards and kickbacks) and the Australian economy is kind of like a giant “Game of real Monopoly” where each player fights for every cent, takes from those that cant afford, plunders assets and doesn’t play in the real world. Employers don’t want to employ more mature people, who arn’t always the most healthy, or haven’t kept up with today’s increasingly demanding technology, or allowances to accommodate employees for the long wait times for medical specialists appointments. Liberals want to “win the game”, stash the cash and if their term finishes by unpopular demand, they have already claimed their piece of pie, as well as….the fat pension and benefits ( that they so jealously guard) Australia has a better system than a lot of other countries, but it is slow, confusing and needs an overhaul, but this is NOT the way to do it…Do they not also realize that Volunteers help RUN this country? They seriously are out of touch with reality…
We are not going to change these politicians form the Coalition, what we need is a reassurance by the ALP that if they win the election will reverse all this policies.
Also we need the support of the Greens.
We have to start now asking questions what it is the position of the opposition in these matters.
The reason they believe all welfare recipients are out to rort the system is because they are out to rort the system. They know they would rort any system as much as possible (and they do), and therefore can’t believe anyone else wouldn’t do the same. They can’t demonise their contemporaries without losing the value of their own rorts and/or incriminating themselves, so instead pick on those least likely to be able to defend themselves.
Freethinker… Spot on
Ditto Freethinker: Labor and Greens at the very least must oppose these policies.
In New Matilda is a good article by Owen Bennett about welfare the government and the media
How Malcolm Turnbull’s Men Keeps The Dole Bludger Boogeyman Alive
Lurline O’Brien, agree with your assessment. They (the Libs) are also the only ones who speak of envy…
Freethinker,I always thought that Labor and the Greens were the most suitable bed mates, now they seem to be drifting apart, with dire consequences. It only helps the Coalition, horror of horrors..!
helvityni, this weekend is the Greens National Council meeting.
Yesterday Milne and others attacked the NSW Greens and Lee and today the NSW Greens will reply.
I know that the NSW Greens are not going to negotiate their constitution, further more they say that Richard di Natale and the senators that have suspended Lee have done it unconstitutionally
Also, so far is a very big support for Lee..
It does not look good and s split in the party is quite possible with Lee national support.’
The view is that di Natale centrist leadership went to far to the right like the Australian Democrats have done before.
The senate after next election will be a unworkable if ON and Nick get more votes.
Helvityini The Greens and Labor whilst they agree on many issues are in opposition to each other. This is highlighted by the stunt DiNatale pulled with Gonski (actually secretly supporting the Libs) if it wasn’t for Rhiannon they would have. Also their stunt today attacking Shorten about Adani in a bid to win 3 Melbourne seats. Shorten does not support federal funding, QLD does not support federal or state grants for it either. The Libs do. If he was serious about Adani he’d go up to Townsville where head office is built and where jobs are already advertised and where there is 14% unemployment and take on Matt Canavan and Turnbull from the Libs in Townsville. It is good to see on his Facebook page that many see this for the stunt it is. How many people have joined the Greens bandwagon on Adani? Coming up with no solutions? Not pushing for alternative jobs? All to win three seats in Melbourne. What a joke. The bloke is a self serving cop out and frankly I didn’t mind the Greens before he came along and now I quite loathe them. They do everything they can to ensure Labor are seen as the worst choice as possible to keep LNP in because protesting LNP policies gives them a bigger standing. I know many here love the Greens but as someone who hates the LNP with a passion and think LNP genuinely really hurt vulnerable people, the Greens make me so annoyed. If there ever was a bed, they might still sleep in the same bed sometimes but there are five pillows stacked between and backs facing each other. That’s DiNatales fault, no one else’s.
Trish, if Albo was the leader in the ALP you can bet that many socialists that are giving the preference to the Greens will be supporting the ALP.
Bill have to read the movement in the electorate and see that out there are thousands of votes to get if he change a bit his support for Chris Bowen macroeconomics views.
We need more than ever not only to remove this government but also to eliminate ON from the political landscaping and to do that the ALP also have to move a tad more to the left.
I completely disagree. This thinking is from the “I’ve already made my mind up crowd” and no matter what Shortens policies are they will still carry on about Albo. If Labor had factions called goose and duck instead of left and right, no one would care. There is absolutely no evidence that Albo would perform better, get more air time or more exposure or be more convincing. I like him, but as a lover of strategy and leadership I’ll give Shorten his due. The one who appeals to me the most as connecting because he can explain complex things very simply is Andrew Leigh and frankly I don’t care he isn’t faction aligned. I would help if those who hate the LNP actually focused on the LNP because this Bill above is supposed to be why we fight the bastards. As per my comment above people need to start questioning the Greens on why they focus all their energy on Labor when the real fox is in the henhouse ripping everything apart. I’m writing on a topic today that may be pertinent to this convo.
PS also anyone in government must pass a drug test…..
Freethinker
What people fail to understand is that when the method to give members and Caucus a vote,and in the %s that it was formulated it was done for a purpose.Caucus are working closely with each other regularly and consistently and can evaluate a candidate on performance,knowledge,ability to work as a team and a lot of other issues that make up the workings of Parliament whether in Government or Opposition.
To just have a straight out popularity poll would not be in the ALPs best interest.
It is telling also that Anthony Albaneses own faction did not support him for the Leadership,but added their support for Shorten
I personally voted for Albo but with Bill Shorten he isn’t a big personality – I don’t want that . I want a stable personality that is strong, innovative and can lead the Party to victory
Trish,
I read online {Peter Wicks- Wixxyleaks}that the Greens and a large band of volunteers yesterday went out in Melbourne yesterday campaigning against Labor. {NOT THE LNP, LABOR}It makes me think that Di Natale is starting to get really comfortable with his continued liasons with the LNP
Yep Nurse. Already said my piece in DiNatales Facebook. It’s backfired because most of the comments are why aren’t you door knocking QLD? Why are you attacking Labor? Etc he looks like a desperate idiot. I voted Albo too. But Shorten has won me.
Trish Corry
I think the Greens made their position quite clear in the last Federal election when they spent two thirds of the total NSW election budget on just 2 seats- that of Albo and Tanya Plibersek, some whispers indicated that it was 10 times more than they spent against Turnbull or Abbott
The reason why The Greens are campaigning in the ALP seats it is because the Greens leadership.
I never like Richard di Natale, IMO he is another Nick Xenophon that is more comfortable with the old Liberal party than the ALP.
If he continuing in charge of the Greens and more moderate right start pushing their agenda in the party the Greens will be another Australian Democrats.
I have send emails to my state Greens senators that I have withdraw my support for the party.
The point that I try to make is that out there are a lot of people like me, potential voters for the ALP.
It is up to the ALP to get that votes and with Chris Bowen it is difficult because his macroeconomics ideology.
What’s the deal with Greens supporters and their hatred for Bowen? A genuine question
Is not the Greens it is the progressive socialists that are not happy with Bowen policies to handle the economy.
Sally Mcmanus is in the right track attacking neoliberal policies.
The Greens support the Buffet rule, Chris no
You must be aware of what Wayne Swan have to say about Chris policies.
Yeh I just wondered if it was a “you are right faction and therefore we think that means you are the same as the Libs and automatically hate you” thing or if it was something Bowen had said.
Trish Corry with this factional stuff where does the likes of Di Natale and Whish Wilson and that fool from Tamania who wants to “Uberise” jobs and damn award wages, fall on the Left /Right spectrum?
I need to visit Twitter catch up on all the dumb stuff they have got up to while I was in Trump La La land
Gillard and Bob Brown were grown-ups, they understood compromise, got on and moved on, and achieved plenty…
I don’t trust Xenophon, and find Di Natale disappointing. Yet there are many Green politicians whom I admire…
Greens under Di Natale have sold out to the populism view. The ONLY chance we have is with a Labor government, doesn’t matter who is leading. We just have to get them in, and beforehand make certain they are on the right side of socialism. The attack n the welfare system are inhuman, let alone unAustralian.I favor the protest idea that everyone with a disability that is currently preventing them from work should front up to Centrelink – especially those who are unable to walk, or speak. I know someone who did this with a family member and the carer just left him in the office and came back sometime later to be told “but he can’t speak, we can’t do anything for him “. Really ? gosh I never noticed !!!!!
We are being pushed to the brink of 1984 – set in the Edwardian or Victorian era. Aristocrats and serfs.
I like Rachael Siewert and I was surprised. I thought she would be more like Rhiannon. I also like Larissa Waters. Hardly hear a thing from Ludlum anymore. I especially don’t like DiNatale or Bandt. Xenophon is a Liberal. Nothing to like in my eyes. Hanson is just untrustworthy, greedy viscous and pointless. I’ll be as glad to see the back of her as I was Newman and Joh.
Hear hear! Brilliant idea with the disability stuff. My deep anxiety and fear is for those who have psych illnesses where they can’t get out the house, where they may oversleep and miss appointments, where they might get to an interview and sit in a car and just can’t walk in the door, where they might get a job and are paranoid they don’t fit in and react to that and lose payments because of “misconduct” as well as the obvious very incapacitated people. My father was a disabled pensioner. All job search should be voluntary but definitely disability.
Thanks Trish, this is wonderful. I feel able to make a submission after reading this, and have shared the article and signed the petition The entire ‘reform is horrible but I would particularly pick out the removal of the volunteer alternative for older job seekers. This is a very strange decision when so many older people are clearly not acceptable to employers for whatever reason. I have been through the process of applying for many jobs both where my (substantial and varied) qualifications were relevant and where the work was for unqualified people. It was clear that employers have reservations about older peoples’ stamina and flexibility, and don’t believe that we can learn or cope with the modern workplace.
Considering the reducing need for workers in many fields, this is a very short-sighted move from a heartless government.
Thanks King. And thanks for thinking about a submission. I will be doing one
Sickness Allowance to become jobseekers? WTF? https://lifewithhiv-peter.blogspot.sg/2017/07/gov-wants-sickness-allowance-recipients.html
Thanks for the awesome work Trish.
The provision for petitions, just the wealth of information – outstanding.
As for the ellenpee… what is it with them and paid work?
Particularly when they want to reduce minimum wage to below subsistence levels – where citizens helping others will be needed more than… well since the days of child labour…
Just finished watching “The Handmaid’s Tale” series on SBS which is, basically, about paternalistic authoritarianism taken to extremes. Am wishing Australia was a lot closer to Canada – anyone who knows Margaret Atwood’s tale will know what I mean. Now I must reread the book… because reading about an imaginary dystopia is a release from feeling like we’re close to living in one.
PS
I am on DSP – I simply cannot deal with more hoop jumping. No more, had enough.
“If he was serious about Adani he’d go up to Townsville where head office is built and where jobs are already advertised and where there is 14% unemployment and take on Matt Canavan and Turnbull from the Libs in Townsville.”
There are 15 jobs advertised by Adani – things like Indigenous Participation Coordinator, Senior Legal Counsel, Stakeholder Engagement Manager, Environment and Approvals Manager – Mine….the only job which shows a pay range is IT Systems Analyst and that will be in Brisbane according to the ad. I have to agree with Larissa Waters that Adani’s announcement that the mine will go ahead is just a grab for a $1 billion handout of public funds from the Northern Australia Infrastructure Facility. I really wish that Labor would stop pretending that this mine will create jobs and start actually talking about real employment for the area and the many other areas facing similar and worse unemployment figures. If the mine went ahead it would be at the cost of jobs in existing mines anyway. What is the point of that?
A leaked document shows that there will be no much activity for at the very least 6 months
Adani’s Carmichael coal mine has slow ‘official start’ planned, leaked document shows
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-10/adani-queensland-coal-mine-plan-raises-doubts-on-viability/8691020
I cannot see why Trish think that will be a work bonanza for the region.
I cannot see why Trish think that will be a work bonanza for the region. (you have no idea what I think Free)
Kaye, I cannot understand how someone could read this article and then their first comment they make is about Adani.
I am very serious about the issue above – Welfare and the jobless and I refuse to allow this to be derailed into a conversation about the Adani Coal mine. It is an insult to the people at the receiving end of this legislation.
I made a comment mentioning Adani in relation to the Greens to someone else (which started about the Greens and Labor standing together to fight this legislation, which there now appears to be a rift – campaigning against Adani in Melbourne to take three seats from Labor). An aside, but relevant in the context of the article.
I haven’t used Adani as a conversation starter, such as Kaye’s comment you are responding to Free.
I welcome contributions regarding the legislation at hand and associated discussion for those concerned about welfare reform. There are plenty of spaces to discuss Adani. Let’s not debase or derail this serious issue about welfare reform and punitive measures applied to those on welfare.
Thank you.
FreethinkerJuly 9, 2017 at 2:06 pm
“The reason why The Greens are campaigning in the ALP seats it is because the Greens leadership.
I never like Richard di Natale,”
Well all you Greens members, why not vote him out?
Oh wait- thats right you don’t get a vote and they do it behind closed doors and even MPs like Bandt only got 30 minutes notice of the {pre arranged } deal
And you spend all that time complaining about the ALPs method of electing Leaders? spare me
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