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Terror alert or political stunt?

There is something quite odd about this latest decision to raise Australia’s terrorist alert level to ‘high’. I can’t see what it is supposed to achieve? Is there credible evidence that a terrorist threat is likely? If so, why let the perpetrators know that? Why tell them you are aware of their intentions?

This is what makes yesterday’s announcement by the Prime Minister, look suspiciously like a well-engineered stunt. By making the announcement in the company of the Director General of ASIO, David Irvine and the Australian Federal Police Commissioner, Andrew Colvin, Tony Abbott seemed, to me, to be playing politics.

Call me a cynic but that’s how I see it. My suspicion is that the government is testing the reaction of the public and will gauge that reaction through polls they will take this weekend as well as those commissioned by various media outlets. A positive movement in the polls immediately after such an announcement will tell them what strategies best suit their chances in the lead up to the next election.

The Prime Minister says there is no specific intelligence that tells us an imminent terrorist attack is likely, so what is the purpose of the announcement? “What we do have is intelligence that there are people with the intent and the capability to mount attacks,” he said. So what is new about that? We have always known that. You only have to go back and have a look at some of the news broadcasts of 2001 and 2002 to see that.

Immediately after 9/11 there were reports of suspicious characters of “Middle Eastern appearance” everywhere. There were scenarios that nominated which buildings were considered targets and media driven fear campaigns that implied boat people were the most likely group from which a terrorist might enter Australia.

A judgement by ASIO that the terror threat has increased here is understandable in the light of who they know has left Australia to fight in Syria and Iraq and who has returned. But in what way does advertising that judgement in the manner that they have, benefit ordinary Australians who go to football matches, go to shopping centres, airports, concerts and the like? Do we decide not to go? Do we hide under the bed? Of course not. We continue to go about our normal lives doing what we do. So why tell us?

images

Finals fever (Image by theroar.com.au)

Upgrading security at major sporting events such as the AFL Grand Final and similar events is a ‘no brainer’ in a post 9/11 world. But this has been evident at previous Grand Finals, the Australian Open Tennis Championship, and the Melbourne Cup and, I am sure, at other major interstate events.

So why would you suddenly and very dramatically advertise it now?

One of the dangers with a terror alert like this is that, in some cases, some in our community may become excessively alert; they may allow their zeal to exceed their good judgement. They might see things which under normal circumstances they would ignore, but which now could trigger over-active imaginations leading to a reaction that could impact upon innocent people. That would make this warning counter-productive.

‘Lone Wolves’, so described by David Irvine, who have remained under the radar are not going to be bothered by an increase in public alertness. They would, most likely, use that warning to reassess the way in which they plan their attacks.

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Military exercise (Image by galleryclip.com)

That is why I think this latest exercise by the Prime Minister smacks of political skulduggery. Our existing security organisations engaged in fighting terrorism are highly trained, well equipped and properly briefed. They have had over a decade to train and prepare. They are the ones who will maintain a vigilant presence and foil a terrorist plot, not you or I. They don’t need a nervous public overreacting, spreading fear and uncertainty, peering curiously at Muslim women dressed in the hijab; people who are simply going about their normal business.

That is why I think this looks fishy.  It reminds me of the movie, “Something Wicked This Way Comes”, but I think it has less to do with a likely terrorist attack and more with a cleverly crafted plan by a political party and its leader to strike fear into the heart of the Australian community.

144 comments

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  1. ejdur662

    Spot on! And why all the worry about people leaving Oz to fight with the extremist groups? Would it not be easier to let them go and then cancel their passport after they have left?

  2. Carol Taylor

    John, without a doubt Abbott’s “terror alert” will receive an A+ rating from polling – all of which was doubtless already planned prior to the alert rating being raised. After all, who is going to object when any question will read something similar to: Do you believe that the PM’s actions were correct when the Federal Police have been warned of a home grown terrorism attack? Of course we do…

    However and of course, similar happens regularly and Abbott’s timing in taking the heat off his motley crew – Hockey and his budget and Morrison’s loss in the High Court has to make one a little suspicious about why this time, why not other times?

    I would have considered that covert operations need to be conducted under high security, not having (as you suggested), members of the public running off willy-nilly trying to work out whether that swarthy fellow is a Muslim or a Greek.

  3. James Mason

    Not a conspiracy theory .. it IS a conspiracy and you are right to question Abbott’s intentions .. this approach is old hat GW Bush, Blair and Howard all have done this .. it’s boring, predictable, BS and no-one I know believes there is a problem (that we didn’t already know about before, as you so rightt pointed out) .. What worries me is what he(they) might do to convince us that he needs to take away more of our freedom (remember democracy) and control the masses with more lies and corruption ..

  4. Kaye Lee

    I will watch with interest David Irvine’s ‘retirement’ plans. He and Tony went to great lengths to reassure us that this was not a political stunt and that Irvine had come to the decision independently of government action. Surprisingly, they independently BOTH used the phrase “intent and capability” which smacks of a “how do we sell this” advertising brainstorming session. As John rightly points out, there have always been people with the intent and capability – in fact to prove his point Irvine reminded us of foiled plots from the past which, to me, indicates that we already have adequate protection in place. The fact that they know who is where doing what (or so they tell us) reinforces that idea.

    As Carol pointed out on another thread, they have sacked a large number of people from customs. “TONY ABBOTT has decided to cutback on customs 700 people and has also sacked 800 workers from disease and pest control.” But we can spend millions on a fleet of bomb proof cars for Tony.

    And as I keep asking, why do we televise warnings to terrorists but won’t say anything about “operational matters” to do with asylum seekers.

    Have other countries upgraded their travel advice that Australia is now a country likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack? New Zealand and the Pacific Islands will no doubt be thankful for the tourism boost.

  5. kevincadams2014

    Shades of ” weapons of mass destruction” but with the news in your face and these religious nuts running around, it is a vicious ideology. But why advertise the fact as to what our country is going to do about it. Politicians are good at ” pulling he wool over your eyes ” so why would this be ,any different. Just amazes me that the abbott government loves to use scare mongering as a tool.
    Shut up do your job, don’t crow before they’ve laid the egg, crow after. Just nuke everyone.

  6. Terry2

    David Irvine has now left the building and moved into retirement : strange at such a time of heightened risk of terrorism that the head of ASIO lifts the terror alert one day and heads into the sunset the next.

    Also, I’m always a bit worried when Abbott puts his glasses on to make an announcement.

  7. David Stephens

    Thoughtful article.John, which provokes some Saturday morning thoughts. I think the risk in all of this is looking for a single cause. In matters of causation I always go back to the famous Reason model, called thus not because it is about reasons (which it actually is) but which was nutted out by a Professor James Reason. It is also called the Swiss Cheese model and, simply put, it suggests that events have multiple causes. (Reason’s field was transport accidents but the model can be applied to pretty much anything.) Related are the funnel of causation idea, the concept of a sine qua non (something without which nothing would have happened), and the ideas of triggers and proximate causes.

    Without exploring all the possibles in this, one can speculate that these might have been influential: (1) Irvine leaving the ASIO job, wants to leave a legacy of big ASIO profile, more ASIO powers, vindication of years of warning unreceptive governments or maybe he just thought, ‘stuff it, I’ll be out of the place, anyway’, (2) AFP: never seen a policeman who didn’t want more powers, ’nuff said; (3) Colvin explicitly: deputy or acting or whatever, will be not rocking the boat and if he has any misgivings will be keeping them to himself; he has background in counter-terrorism so probably has no misgivings anyway (see also 2. above); (3) Mark Textor, Libs pollster: has probably done focus groups of Anglo-Celtic bogans in Western Sydney who seem comfortable with extreme measures (castration, hanging, Bible classes) against alleged terrorists, especially Muslim ones; (4) Coalition: anything that could wedge Labor is good; (5) Coalition: we need a distraction from the budget and other domestic disasters; (6) Mainstream media: there are a few swarthy guys muttering in Lakemba who are probably up to no good.

    The balance between these and other factors may change frequently but none can be blamed on its own. Together they are powerful. War Precautions Act 1914 anyone? In some lights there is a disturbing likeness between Tony Abbott and Billy Hughes: http://honesthistory.net.au/wp/wellings-ben-commemoration-australia-britain/

  8. Andrew

    And you of course have access to all the info ASIO does, what evidence do you have to say that asio would raise the terror alert just to please a political party. You really think the coalition really cares about opinion polls 2 years from an election, and exactly what do they need to take peoples minds off, in fact there figures are improving, if anyone needs a distraction its the ALP and shorten after his brainsnap during the week.

  9. red

    On the bright(ish) side, the comments in the SMH responding to abbotts terror alert are overwhelmingly critical and calling it out for the bollocks it is. Those that are defending it are mostly the same 5 or 6 right wing nut jobs. Lucky these “terrorists” don’t read the papers, watch tele or listen to the radio, although they do drive hire cars according to the what to watch out for…..sigh.

  10. corvus boreus

    Why do those who post in defense of Abbott tend to generalise, string mis-punctuated rhetoricals and confuse their theres?

  11. Pete

    its worse than just a stunt. think of the cost to the country in terms of tourists that might now reconsider a holiday in Oz, added costs for beefed up security at public events and at airports etc… all of which will end up being passed on to us through increased prices, not to mention the added inconvenience that beefed up security will bring. typical conservative ideology, create an atmosphere of fear to keep the people afraid and they’ll do anything you want them to…

  12. red

    Corvus, i think it’s the confusion in their little brains when trying to remember what ID they are posting under and which media site they are on, the odious task of repeating LNP spin with the obligatory Shorten spray/Labor blame must get quite tiring, poor petals.

  13. Pingback: Terror alert or political stunt? | THE VIEW FROM MY GARDEN

  14. Peter F

    Before the last election, my partner said: “if Abbott wins, we will be involved in a war before the end of his first term.”

  15. Jeanette

    A deflection from a failing unfair govt. that still is struggling with not being able to get budget passed in total. One would hope that some high security risks would have an increase of staff and alertness…but were a lot of staff culled by this govt.? Probably too late for quick training. Why broadcast it?? one would think quietly quietly George Gently..why alert your enemy? ? and who are they again, oh yes, those who were allowed to leave the country on brother’s passport, good one!!! great security…F for FAILED!! all political posturing.

  16. corvus boreus

    red,
    They’re off with their theres. Yawing yours and you’res have been a problem of yore, too.
    “You want to be taken seriously? Learn how to f*cking speak”.(Nucky Thompson/Steve Buscemi)
    Peter F,
    I think your partner was perspicacious, if conservative. We may be commiting to a couple of conflicts.

  17. Merry

    Great article, encouraging thought and discussion on a serious topic. But I think the majority of Australians don’t give ‘a rats arse’ with what’s going on with terrorism, showing that the country is doing a good job at keeping it at bay. So does the government want a pat on the back for doing their paid job with tax payers money, don’t think so. Therefore it is a political move and disturbing at that, allowing what should be secret business from the would be culprits.

  18. ejdur662

    I feel another Hilton Bombing coming on!

  19. Angus McTavish

    Thank you John, the timing around this is very interesting and motivations highly suspicious. Let’s hope the public sees through this announcement with healthy scepticism. Listening to AM this morning everyone who was (allowed to be) broadcast commenting on the announcement at the AFL finals seemed to have taken the bait.

  20. keerti

    “The Prime Minister says there is no specific intelligence that tells us an imminent terrorist attack is likely, so what is the purpose of the announcement? “What we do have is intelligence that there are people with the intent and the capability to mount attacks,” he said. So what is new about that? We have always known that. You only have to go back and have a look at some of the news broadcasts of 2001 and 2002 to see that.”
    If we have intelligence that there are people with “intent” to mount a terrorist attack, then by definition (of English language) there would be specific intelligence that an attack is being planned. I don’t intend to vote for liberal ever……. that is clear enough. My forward planning in life is to…….If t.abut is not capable to understand the language that he uses, then he clearly does not have the tools to be involved in any occupation which requires understanding the language of australia. Given he was a journalist he should have a better grasp.

  21. dwejevans

    Did I miss something?…I saw him come on TV and just switched it off, I just cannot listen to anymore of the b/s emanating from this ‘slime minister’, there has been so much scamming, scheming lying dodgy dealings I have had enough! Nobody could possibly have any faith or trust in anything they come out with.

  22. Roger

    IF (and I’m not suggesting there is) an increase in terror related activities) THEN it can most definitely be sheeted down to our ‘gung-ho’ prime minister (I shudder when I say those words) with his inflammatory language – he is just a THUG!

  23. Joan

    Tony is raising the terror alert so that he can increase surveillance on Australian citizens and use terror threats as a reason for doing so.

  24. aliendiplomacy

    People talk of “added costs”. Yes, but who gets the money? Lib supporters who run security firms, etc.

  25. randalstella

    ejdur662
    I have the same sick feeling. There are other ruthless stunts underway, in planning.
    ASIO have always been as tight as a drum with the extreme Right of the LCP.
    And they have a supine, stupid, egregious journo-corps to do the beat-up for them; once the cops round up some fringe group or other. Some of the shameless MSM liars over the Hilton trials are still around. And their like are now more plentiful.
    The Hilton bombing showed the extent to which concerted perjury is effective – by only very few, those never cross-examined, knowing the whole crime and frame-up.

  26. berlioz1935

    The Abbott government is absolutely shameless. Another “alert but not alarmed” campaign is in the offering. I checked my fridge magnet ( it is still there) and cancelled my bookings for the Hilton. Irvine is irresponsible leaving his job like that. If we don’t believe the scare campaign there surely will go off a planted bomb somewhere. ASIO is so dilettante, that they forgot to call off the rubbish collection.

    Do you still remember when ASIO covered for the Croatian terrorists?

    We, the punters in voter land, have no idea what those people in government are planing.

  27. Betty Candy

    The threat is so “Likely” that Abbott is taking off for a holiday in Arnhem Land fora week.

  28. Lost2

    All you have to do is go and look at Murdoch News Ltd press statements, first 6 or 7 headlines all dealing with terror upgrade, all blaming the fighting in Syria and Iraq, the so called Australian fighters when they return or ones wanting to leave to fight. As pointed out by a previous poster, new laws were made to tackle this situation, so where is the problem, they will either be denied access back into Australia or be locked up when the touch down, so how can these returning fighters be any threat.
    This is nothing but a big distraction concocted because of poor polling, Abbott is jumping up and down, hoping Obama makes a call for Australia’s help to justify going to war, in hope that it lifts his ratings, ask the UnAustralian newspaper, a recent poll conducted supported going to war at 70%, trouble is, only old school Rusted on Liberals read that newspaper, as proven by the massive losses in sales, but because it is his sponsors business, good old Tony believes every word.

  29. Olivia Manor

    The Hilton will be bombed close to the next election, to really consolidate the fear of the bogan electorate!

  30. Gaerryn

    You people are morons. Why the hell do you support this incompetent fool? THERE IS NO TERROR HAPPENING AT ALL… THIS IS A POLITICAL STUNT TO KEEP HIM IN PARLIAMENT FOREVER. WE NEED TO GET RID OF THIS FOOL. IF YOU LIBERAL IDIOTS KEEP HIM IN, YOU WILL DESTROY THIS COUNTRY. IT’S ALREADY GOING DOWN THE DARKEST PATH.

  31. All's Not Lost

    I’d exercise a bit more precision with your language if I were you. “You people are morons” suggests you’re speaking to the people at this site, which would be a bit silly.

  32. June M Bullivant OAM

    Someone said he polled better when he was looking like a statesman, look beneath the surface, watch his actions and see if he cares for the community, he is still pushing everything that is unfair to the community do you think he cares?

  33. Wayne Turner

    The Libs predictable “Weapon Of Mass Distraction”,to try to scare people into supporting this dodgy Libs mob.

    If the threat is real,than Tony Idiot Abbott has braught this on,by getting us involved in more wars,such as Iraq AGAIN & his stupid grand standing on the world stage.These Libs are a threat to our national security,and very dangerous.But of course want to politically paint themselves as some kind of saviour.

    A distraction from their dodgy budget and self serving royal commissions.

    Look over there……..

  34. John Fraser

    <

    The minute you see the Australian Federal Police (AFP) standing beside Abbott get ready for a truckload of bullshit coming your way.

    This is how it worked in Queensland during the Joh years and now works with the newman LNP :

    "However, in a @RadioNational special, Vice President of the Queensland Council for Civil Liberties Terry O’Gorman warned of a similarity in the crime reporting structure to that of the Joh Bjelke-Petersen Government in which the police commissioner released figures in the lead up to elections to the benefit of the government.

    “It’s in the lead up to the Stafford by-election and the police commissioner ought full well know that police commissioners do not release nor do they initiate nor respond to discussion about crime statistics in the lead up to either by-elections or full state elections,” he said.
    “He ought to remember the controversy that occurred during the Fitzgerald era where Fitzgerald in his report made particular findings that during the 70s and 80s police used to regularly release crime statistics that were wrong in order to support the government of the day.”

    O’Gorman was also highly critical of members of the executive police force commenting in support of specific pieces of Newman Government legislation such as the Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act designed to deal with criminal motorcycle gangs.

    “They seem to be falling over themselves almost weekly to call press conferences to say how great the anti-bikie laws are. It’s not for the police to start praising particular pieces of legislation. It’s for the police to independently enforce and bring people to court under laws that are passed by parliament.”

    – See more at: http://nofibs.com.au/2014/08/02/factcheck-queensland-crime-statistics-get-newmaned-qldpol-qldaah/#sthash.5qOCJhk2.dpuf

    <

    The Australian Federal Police (AFP) are a highly compromised police force and a Royal Commission should be set up to investigate it and its relationship with Abbott.

  35. randalstella

    Olivia,
    I take your reference to “the Hilton” as representative. It might be a plot where international politicians are visiting; e.g. some opponent of Islamic extremism.
    But there’s no over-estimating the spooks’ contempt for the public’s intelligence; a self-confirming hypothesis with the aid of the MSM.
    They might even ‘do’ the Hilton again. They might see it as a specialty-ground, given their last great success there. The deaths and injuries there were a great boost to their funding and power. And the limited exposure of their crimes – the lies and perjury and brutality towards isolated citizens – no real lasting problem.
    And you can definitely bet on the MSM’s feral complying, supplying the rhetoric and highly prejudicial headlines. Watch the ABC fall over itself in mock alarm about anything. Scheduled programmes will be interrupted for the journo-stars to preen; so serious with their very important distortions and very slight information.

  36. Kath Malcom

    I made a few quick phone calls to the adults in charge last week corman was first, I said “the only terrorist we got in this country is that German speaking Nuff Nuff Corman the con man with his budget of death, she bloody hung up on me , cos I am right and she couldn’t hear the truth,

    Then I rang Chesters office and said, “where is the minister for women gone? missing in action I see,
    Chester is doomed, if an election was held yesterday he would be out on his arse with an 18 PC swing against him and” she bloody hung up on me lol

    I am getting used to being hung up on lol lol
    last but not least I rang Phony’s office and said “Phoney Tony is the terrorist, he is a con, and cretin Credlin is the most dangerous woman in this country, and he will be gone by Xmas, yep gone,” she hung up on me before I could get another gone out lol lol lol

    I ring both numbers the electorate and Parliament House number, fight fire with fire, and I can see smoke coming out of the LNP, they are sliding into oblivion and the terrorist propaganda is just that, propaganda from this incompetent gov and security forces to scare the bejesus out of the masses, not working Phony Tony and co 🙂 the budget of death is still hanging around Smokin joes neck, this is just another look over there folks, so we can screw you back here, idiots absolute fark knuckles, and phoney Tony shouldn’t wear those glasses, makes him look like a total tool…..lol lol lol

  37. J Marsh

    ejdur662 I agree !

    If they want to go and fight with these extremist groups then they should be allowed to do so.
    They show only too clearly that they are not loyal to Australia.
    Revoke the Australian citizenship and cancel the passport, let them stay where their chosen path lays.

  38. Manfred

    Why indeed Gearryn. Why; because Australians are either self absorbed,lazy and disinterested in Politics,One dimensional and ignorant.Howard did so much social damage.Extreme capitalism runs better on fear,division and keeping mice on the treadmill syndrome and ill prepared multiculturalism bakes the perfect cake

  39. PopsieJ

    The LNP won the last election by appealing the voters who where paranoid about ” them” coming here for free benefits and not not being part of Team Australia, hence the election slogan “Stop the boats”. Slogan for next election “Stop the muslims” and ” Stop the the terrorists”
    BTW last week in Melbourne a tradie parked his van quote “awkwardly” outside a jewish house this resulted in a full bomb squad alert, street in lock down etc etc when a parked ute causes
    such fear the terrorists have won.

  40. Matters Not

    No need to be concerned, ASIO will be searching far and wide to find another Muhamed Haneef. What a farce!

    I am returning home this Wednesday after 33 days abroad. One wonders how this increased security affects someone who’s been to Turkey three times (twice last year), Russia and Belarus the year before and ‘communist’ countries such as China and Vietnam on numerous fact finding missions.

    Perhaps the saving grace will be the recent visit to Cambodia, our latest ‘best friend’.

  41. John Fraser

    <

    @Matters Not

    Its always been obvious to me that you're a danger to both free speech and democracy.

    Probably a clear and present danger to our Great Leader who holds us safely in his bosom.

    When the AFP asks you to drop your daks make sure you have a big grin on your face as you show them what they have been living with since the last election.

  42. Anomander

    This has been in planning for quite some time, I suggest, as evidenced by the Team Australia mantra – simplistically trying to rev-up and create further division in the tiny minds of the mullet-headed bogans and racists.

    Useful as a distraction from the budget debacle and to act as convenient cover for other underhanded attacks about to be launched on industrial relations, signing-up to new free-trade agreements and selling what is left of our assets into private hands.

    Additionally, in light of the recent High Court decision on asylum seekers and the illegality of permanent detention – the Libs thinking will no doubt be; “Well, if we can’t lock ’em up, we may as well make the public even more scared of them”.

  43. Matters Not

    John Fraser, I will take your advice.

    Seriously, this is comedy gold. Fridge magnets in the post? Mouse pads? Blotters? Bumper stickers? Tattoos?

    Invitations to be a ‘lert’, because ‘lerts’ are …

    It’s amazing how brave our defense forces are supposed to be, yet they come from a populace who are so easily frightened.

  44. John Fraser

    <

    Fridge magnets with "Leaners not Lifters" , "Be alarmed read Murdochs trash", "God rules christians" and of course my favourite ….. "This fridge runs on coal".

    The intelligentsia must be looking at Australia as though it is a zoo …. and telling their children this is how ignoramuses behave.

  45. Vince O'Grady

    I agree entirely with this post. Abbott is just doing this as a Political Stunt. If you look at it another way, you could say that he is actually saying that his border protection Policies have failed. Because the Threat is higher.

    What concrete evidence, such as money spent is there that a hightened alert is being responded too with concrete plans. We don’t have to know the plans (as if this government would tell you anything anyway), but the level of new spending to keep us all safe would be a gesture that shows that they are endeavouring to keep us safe.

    I was a Police constable in the West Midlands in the UK in the 1970’s and I don’t think that there is anymore Terror around nowadays than there was then. In fact there were more terrorist plots hatched and carried out then. The difference is the communications reolution, where people know sooner and in greater detail and the most obvious Political angle which the childish Politicians like Abbott and his Political father Howard pull as self serving stunts.

  46. Peter F

    corvus boreus, He has always been both.

  47. Carol Taylor

    Anomander and, to “create further division in the tiny minds of the mullet-headed bogans and racists” – having put doubts into their minds as to his effectiveness due to being seen (in their eyes) to have caved in on the Bolt-Amendment to the Racial Discrimination Act, and with Morrison also likely to have ‘caved in’ on being able to torture process people offshore at any whim, plus taking granny’s hard-earned, plus charging their kids mega to put a foot inside the hallowed halls of top universities..how else to recapture the ‘battler’ vote than evoke a bit of racist fear and loathing.

  48. Kath Malcom

    I was reading the other day the coalition would be lucky to win 10 seats if election held now, could even be the end of the coal ition party all together, they would be the irrelevent ones, bye bye Tony and Co….

  49. Kyran

    The article heading poses a question, the only rational response to which is “C” Farce. Terrorism has been around for centuries, usually when small forces had to intimidate larger forces by scaring the stuffing out of them. It became a media exercise in the 70’s. There were “nut jobs” hiding behind numerous causes, flags and religions. The Munich Olympics changed all that, when an extremist group grabbed the world’s attention with the assistance of saturation coverage from this relatively new TV thingy. From then to now, the “terrorist” ideology understands the extremely crass media ideology, “If it bleed’s, it leads”. Government’s, globally, understand this. My belief is that the terrorist ideology won, because we, the people, accepted the nonsense that, to protect us, they would have to remove some of our “liberties”. I recall a quote from Churchill in the midst of the WW2, when asked if he would reduce the budget for the arts (I think) to assist the war effort. His response was “Then, what are we fighting for?”. Modern government’s aren’t as principled (and I am no fan of Churchill). I recall another leader announcing a “War on Terror”. That expression still causes me great angst due to it’s incredible stupidity. War is largely conventional, dealing with “known known’s”, army V army. Terrorism is a cause, an “unknown known”. One cannot exist without the other, but they cannot war with each other in the military sense, only in the media sense. Terrorists, whatever their current name is, greatly exaggerate their presence by posting something barbaric on this new internetty thingy. And MSM go for the bait every time. There is evidence and fact, which must be relied on in every instance. The premise of the announcement is that there are Australian’s overseas fighting whatever their cause might be in very violent situations. When they return to Australia, they will be more likely to commit equally violent acts. The estimates, depending on your news source, are somewhere between 60 and 1,500. If the government can’t tell us which figure is accurate, I have a problem. Getting back to domestic politics, the creation of fear and division means we have to trust “The Government”. One of my first “lessons” in politics was from my father who told me how to tell if a politician was lying. “Son, their lips are moving”. When I see a military uniform beside a politician, I really worry why they would associate. Then I remember, one needs money from the other. And all of this leads nowhere. Except to distract from real issues. I sincerely hope I got my there theirs right.
    Cheers

  50. Anne Byam

    John Kelly – a great article – thank you.

    Ref. “The Speech” … about the heightened terror alert – to “High”. I don’t know whether David Irvine had reached his retirement, or had planned early retirement, or had been moved aside for some reason and decided to quit – to lead an ‘ordinary’ life. If anyone knows the real reason for his leaving, it would be interesting to know.

    I posted the following comment on another article here …. and it remains relevant I believe :

    It was this : Now the terrorism threat has been raised higher – at whose behest ? We might well wonder !! …. The outgoing ASIO director general – David Irvine made the comments, but added “We are facing a persistent threat (from terrorism)”… but not much different to post 9/11 ”http://www.news.com.au/national/top-cop-ken-lay-warns-risk-of-terror-attack-on-australian-soil-as-high-as-post 9/11…. at least he had the good sense to deliver a bit of double speak with that one. Other leaders, State and Police took up the cudgels and added their thoughts.

    “Not much different to post 9/11″. I am sure Abbott would have been pleased with THAT gem from Irvine – NOT. Such a laid back statement about a possibly serious problem.

    I can see it now … ( after make up applied to all standing to attention behind the microphones ) … the director saying ” Er – gentlemen, this is a very grave matter, so I want very serious and stern looks on faces – no smiling … now 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And there they all stood like sentrymen, with such looks that I thought at least one of them was going to cry. What a beat up … no doubt commissioned by the great leader himself – Abbott.

    Thing is, the forces have been out and about in pretty large numbers – NOT always dressed in police uniform, but quietly moving among crowds at large gatherings, SINCE 9/11 …when large scale terrorism was introduced – has been SEEN ever since … and this country has been aware of it all – EVER SINCE.

    btw … despite the fact that many here turn their faces away from looking at and listening to the Abbott, it might be handy to have a sneak-peek now and again. He was alleged to have contracted a virus in India and didn’t look too good. He hasn’t looked ‘too good’ ever since, and was pale last night, and I reckon he has aged in a fortnight – quite dramatically. The strain is most definitely showing, his body language is weaker, his shoulders are no longer squared and back, his dominant stride has shortened …. he frankly looks like sh*t. Serves him bloodywell right.

    I doubt he has the intestinal fortitude for much more of this – especially as he has been backed into so many corners of late, with much looming ( won’t list it all here – you all know ) … he certainly does not have any courage, or strength of character to maintain these beat-ups. His memory must be taking a real belting. And liars will inevitably trip themselves up – one way or another.

    Sit – and watch.

  51. John Fraser

    <

    Strange how in the last couple of days there have been suitcases left laying around Courthouses :

    http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-courts-bomb-threat-after-suspicious-package-found-in-courtyard-in-front-of-supreme-court-building/story-fnii5v6w-1227056699836

    This one came with compliments from the Australian Federal Police (AFP).

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/police-apologise-after-leaving-plastic-explosives-at-sydney-airport-20140911-10fh8q.html

    Seems like the Abbott "Terror Show" was a bit out of sync when Murdochs trash came out with front page headlines and then along came Abbott on Friday with his "Red Terror Alert".

    This "Courier Mail" "Editorial" was on 11/9/2014 :

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/editorial-terror-alert-a-timely-reminder-for-vigilance/story-fnihsr9v-1227054503221

  52. John Fraser

    <

    "The West Australian MP Alannah MacTiernan took to Twitter late on Friday night tweeting: "The Jihadi threat is real but many Australians also see Abbott as a terror as he takes a wrecking ball to our social infrastructure".

    Using the terror alert as an opportunity to attack Mr Abbott's domestic policies contradicts the position of Opposition Leader Bill Shorten who, on Friday afternoon, vowed his full support to the Prime Minister on the matter of national security."

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/labor-mp-alannah-mactiernan-breaks-ranks-on-bipartisan-terror-stance-20140913-10gekp.html#ixzz3DAoc5ZbR

    The real problem for Australia is in the last paragraph ….. above.

    And just what is Shortens "problem" ….. suggested rape perhaps ?

    There's a bloodbath coming for the ALP the longer they keep going the way they are going.

  53. Pingback: Spin Doctoring this Saturday – Tony Tries to Wag the Dog | Unload and Unwind

  54. Mensor Hacker

    @ROBBO DA YOBBO:

    Boy oh boy, you can really SHOUT a lot – else there’s a problem with your Caps-Lock key.

    —-

    I think that contributors like ROBBO DA YOBBO are somewhat uneducated and this shows in their poor spelling and general inability to articulate their views clearly. It’s as though their reading interests are very narrow and their writing resembles ‘automatic writing’ or ‘writing in tongues’.

    Perhaps there are some psychologists or psychiatrists out there who understand how such minds work.

  55. Kayla Flamenco Malaysia

    George doublya “You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorists” sounds familiar “Team Australia”? There are many sides to any story but of course we generally only get the Murdochracy one, and that one always just stinks. Just look a little deeper into err um oh gosh soooo many to choose from ….. here you go … look into how many military exercises were being conducted in the vicinity of, or in one case actual location, absolute tragedies around the world, then tell me who is terrorising who and who get’s the blame! Short list – 9/11, London underground, missing flight MH370, none of this is disputed but none of it is reported, perhaps The AimN could take a look. Downed flight MH17 – so many other side of the story articles on this one, the attached article is well worth a look. Before you do let me tell you this, I live in Malaysia and have a lot of Dutch friends here as well. Within the first hour of MH17 being downed the FB and Twitter traffic was incredible, we here in Malaysia, on social media, heard about it before Australia did or even CNN. Most of the feed I received was via my Dutch friends both here and in Europe, many of their tweets were from Ukraine. There is very little of this communication traffic still available to find, it’s mostly just gone. But this WAS there, I saw some of it amongst the feeds.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/5391888

  56. John Kelly

    ROBBO DA YOBBO, your post was far too long and mostly illegible. Less use of caps and more coherent arguments would really help both you and your readers.

  57. iggy648

    MH, it’s so that Andrew Bolt can say “look at the kind of whackos that post on AIMN”. I’d be interested to know if there has been any development on the “spying on East Timor” saga. That might explain Uncle David trying to make himself look good before he goes.

  58. corvus boreus

    R tY
    People shouldn’t mix benzedrine and ketamine, washed down with rum, then attack their keyboards. It looks messy.

  59. Choppa

    There is something quite odd about this latest decision to raise Australia’s terrorist alert level to ‘high’. I can’t see what it is supposed to achieve? Is there credible evidence that a terrorist threat is likely? If so, why let the perpetrators know that? Why tell them you are aware of their intentions?

    http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/Securityandyourcommunity/Pages/NationalTerrorismPublicAlertSystem.aspx

    John – you never do any research before you dribble. THe country is not in a permanent state of preparation for potential terror attacks.

    The comments above are so comical. This place never ceases to amaze – its exhibit A for why we should never let the left back in charge.

  60. John Kelly

    Choppa, I don’t follow your supposed logic. I read your link. It tells me nothing I didn’t already know. The alert system is important to those who are directly engaged in our security services, but of no value to the broader public. Better we don’t know. Unfortunately, the system is wide open to political abuse and that is what I think is happening here.

  61. Rob031

    What did we do to have ROBBO DA YOBBO touch down and visit us? He’s gotta be either a Poe or…

  62. olive

    we are being treated as idiots. I lived in London during the IRA bombings etc etc and there was none of this high alert , be alarmed and revving up of the population …just ordered , systematic low key strategies and procedures carried out , i.e. no leaving of cases unattended ( still there ) , removal of rubbish bins ( still there ). Why flag your intentions to potential terrorists anyway …..stupid government …sadly I fear average aussies , you know those ones the pollies say they always trust for their outstanding intelligence, will fall for this as they did for the lies of this bunch during the election capping !

  63. Truth Seeker

    John Kelly, I agree with your assessment, as I alluded to in my own piece “Will the real Aussie terrorists please stand up!”

    We are being played for fools, and the biggest threat by far is Idiot boy and his overblown, warmongering rhetoric, for no other reason than a boost in his poll numbers.

    And Shorten, with his “Team Australia” crap needs to wake up, or suffer the same fate as Abbott!

    The fact that they went to great pains to say it was NOT a gov decision, smacked of “Me thinks you doth protest too much!”

    And besides, since they got in, when have they actually told us… “The truth”?

    The only honest statement that Abbott made was when he said ” We have no specific intelligence…!” 😯

    Cheers 😡

  64. corvus boreus

    John K,
    I suspect you will find nought but cognitive dissonance there. Values, processes and conclusions.
    You do not regularly deal in non-evidentially based, absolutist generalisations and categorizations of broad groups.
    You do not regularly display a blatantly hypocritical dichotomy between stated values of expectation of behavior in others and your own personal conduct.
    You do not summarily disregard and disrespect the input of hugely respected career scientists when forming your conclusions regarding human impacts on our biosphere.
    You do not openly disregard the value of factual integrity in your sources, and don’t happily digest the offerings of proven liars and cheats without chewing thoroughly first(e.g. the input of Rupert the Hacker’s organisation).
    Basically, John, you don’t hold the view that ‘the ABC is a “sesspit” of leaning lefties whinging about climate-change crap to gullible, dole-bludging tards’.
    In my view, discourse with that source is about as productive as sitting in a small locked room playing chess with a pigeon whilst inhaling ‘jenkem’.
    I suggest you find a more useful focus(Don’t you know we’re at war?).

  65. Terry2

    Olive

    You spotted it too !

    Normally a calibration – and that’s what it is – of our terror alert level is done with strategic discretion by those involved; there is an established procedure and it has nothing to do with press conferences spreading alarm with the community. – crying lone wolf is a very dangerous and foolish strategy.

    Fortunately for David Irvine he has now retired and will not have to participate in this circus any more : who is the new Director General of ASIO, anybody know ? maybe he has sensibly declined to play this media game.

  66. corvus boreus

    We are principally wading into the fray because ISIS/L are a terrorist threat. The terrorist threat to us is increased because we are going to war with ISIS/L. Apparently the best thing we can do is carry on as normal, only be more scared as we do so.
    Helpful stuff.

  67. Carol Taylor

    My impression was – Abbott is not the strategist which Howard was. Sigh…Abbott has stuffed it up again..overblown rhetoric, faux concern, no specific target (surely Credlin could have found a small child willing to dress up in black clothes and point a small black plastic rifle at the camera..just for emphasis). PLUS it’s 2 years out from the election, timing all wrong..and most importantly who on earth would do a political stunt terror alert during the footy finals?

  68. stephentardrew

    Great article John. Our problem is not fighting Abbott because he has the bully pulpit, which goes with the job, the problem is to get the opposition parties to stop their tepid self protective knee jerk collaboration and frame sensible and articulate arguments that challenge the LNP. It is up to Labor to set themselves apart from the LNP. Many bloggers here have clearly presented reasoned arguments that could be used to challenge Abbott. Swing voters are not numbskull’s that’s why they are swing voters. They want to hear coherent arguments against government policy and, most importantly, are not encumbered by poor education and reasoning. Its no good referring back to conditions before the last election they need to frame contemporary arguments to meet current conditions. That’s why frustrated backbenchers come out in contradiction to the party because they are in disagreement with the parties vacillating knee jerk conformism.

    Abbott didn’t give a shit what people believed he simply bashed on regardless of the truth. Has Labor learned nothing?

  69. mars08

    Truth Seeker:

    We are being played for fools, and the biggest threat by far is Idiot boy and his overblown, warmongering rhetoric, for no other reason than a boost in his poll numbers.

    Tony dumdum has has a string of bad poll numbers. The electorate doesn’t trust him. He’s on the ropes. Sooooo…. the only logical thing for the ALP to do… is to give him a FREE PASS in his contrived, fear-mongering, vague “terror alert” bullshit????? Oh way to go young Billy boy!!! Brilliant move by the opposition brains trust!!! Pure bloody genius!

  70. corvus boreus

    I think the Shorten strategy is to try to pull a Bradbury and skate sedately around the coming trainwreck.
    He doesn’t realize he is being towed into the tangle.

  71. Kaye Lee

    mars08,

    I feel your frustration. It is the subject of my article today. Being scared doesn’t sit well with me so I am moving on from Tony’s crap.

  72. John Fraser

    <

    I trust everyone checked under their bed this morning ………….. for "terrorists" .

  73. John Fraser

    <

    "Ladies and gentlemen, the story you are about to see is true. The names have been changed to protect the innocent."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx5GwULPU90

    Great for a laugh Kaye Lee.

    Trust you checked under your bed for “terrorists”.

  74. Kaye Lee

    In 1998 Abbott called Bob Santamaria a philosophical star by which you could always steer and the greatest living Australian. Abbott has said that what impressed him about Santamaria was the courage that kept him going as an advocate for unfashionable truths.

    The terrorist threat is REAL! Tony’s hero Bob Santamaria identified it in this clip from 1985 and no….it isn’t the communists! It’s the feminist lesbians and sodomising homosexuals at the ABC who are radicalising the nation!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLoZalF29JY

  75. mars08

    stephentardrew:

    Swing voters are not numbskull’s that’s why they are swing voters. They want to hear coherent arguments against government policy…

    How’s that for a generalisation?

    I’d argue that many swing voters ARE (and have been for a long time) narrow-minded, distracted, disengaged, lazy, bigoted, self-absorbed, short-sighted numbskulls. That’s precisely why they are swing voters. They DO NOT want to hear coherent arguments. They DO NOT want to consider the facts.

    But they DO want simplistic slogans and the nanny state to look after them… and only them!

  76. John Fraser

    <

    @Kaye Lee

    Oh no !

    Now you got me watching behind as I check under the bed for "terrorists".

    O ! bugger it.

    I’m going to Edit this and put back in the word I originally left out.

    Its “my”.

    See if you can figure out where I originally put it.

    I have no fear of anyones sexuality.

  77. keerti

    Thanks Kaye. I checked under the bed and while there was nothing there other than a bit of dust and an old pen, I briefly thought that I saw a holograph of t@abut and a potty full of shit! I am wondering if Australia has ever before had a PM who was so detested by so many of the population.

  78. mars08

    Vince O’Grady:

    What concrete evidence, such as money spent is there that a hightened alert is being responded too with concrete plans. We don’t have to know the plans (as if this government would tell you anything anyway), but the level of new spending to keep us all safe would be a gesture that shows that they are endeavouring to keep us safe.

    Why so skeptical, Vince??? Why so negative? Why the doubt?

    Oh Good Grief … of course the raised terror alert bloody-well works!!!! It’s obvious, isn’t it? What evidence to you need?

    Just as ensuring that I eat legumes twice a week has protected Jennifer Aniston from piranha attack! Now dear Jennifer was totally intact the last time I saw her on TV. Not even a scratch! Now… are YOU willing to take the responsibility for what happens if I remove legumes from my diet????

    Proof that an elevated terror alert was needed can be found in the fact that there were no terror attacks. We can’t possibly say what would have happened otherwise because our fearless leader(s) have taken the requisite precautions.

    On a slightly different note… The Brisbane G20 meeting is just two months away. I suspect we’re going to see all sorts of nastiness from the security agencies in the name of maintaining the peace and protecting the public.

  79. Anne Byam

    Can’t imagine that this will make much difference to your very eccentric / quaint way of thinking Choppa …. and boy, is it strange …. but by the link you yourself provided, it proves that there ARE levels of terrorism alert, and from the time that was brought in to being – not long after 9/11, it has been even since. Terrorism alerts AT VARIOUS LEVELS. …….. capiche ?

    So, in effect, the country IS indeed in a permanent state of preparation, has been for 13 years ( actually longer, since the Hilton Hotel bombing 1978 ) …. that is ‘readiness’ … for any form of attack. Admittedly this is a wikipedia entry – but it is correct from all accounts :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Hilton_Hotel_bombing ……

    and this one gives more detail : http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/hilton_bombing.htm

    That’s if you have the intestinal fortitude to read them.

    And I agree with John Kelly – the 4 tiers of terrorism levels shown … are indeed open to political abuse.

  80. stephentardrew

    Mars8:

    I think lumping all people together is just lazy thinking. I have met many people who are intelligent, well educated and are open to persuasion. Societies are made up of a broad gamut of individuals with a large variety of opinions which does not mean we should ignore those who have the intellectual acumen to bring about change. It all depends upon the social circles in which one mixes.

  81. Anne Byam

    @Mars08 – 10.40 am comment :

    You quoted stephentardrew as saying ” Swing voters are not numbskull’s that’s why they are swing voters. ” etc…. and then launched into a bit of an attack at it.

    Somewhat off topic, but it’s been raised so ….

    =======

    I used to call myself a ‘swinging voter’ … ( before Corvus helped me redefine the situation – a while back !! ) …. 😉

    My idea of a swinging voter – was and always has been one who will NOT …. NOT necessarily vote for someone they voted for before — or someone who is preferred by 99.99% of a persons’ family ( and therefore MUST be voted for no matter what ) – or one I have been pleased with for a while, so decide they must be best and forget the rest.

    My concept was simply one who could change their mind – with no pre-determined preference for any specific party … and by observing, reading, learning, and listening to the pre-election stuff that goes on – make a considered decision on voting day. Ok – that is in fact a discerning voter, a thinking voter, or just a voter who won’t be dictated to by any party – no matter what. —- He/she then democratically makes up his/her own mind.

    My point is, that it depends I would think on what one might see a ‘swinging’ voter to be. You have an opinion – that they are lazy, distracted, bigoted, self absorbed etc. etc. ???? but before getting mad at me — you did qualify it as “MANY” …. did not say “ALL”.

    However, I don’t know why you would use such awful language to describe a group of people who are labelled something ( whether they are that something or not ) …. in popular political speak as it is today.

    Victoria is facing a November election. Our Electorate has a very successful elected Labor member – he excels at his job. The Premier is Liberal, but – for a Liberal – hasn’t done toooo bad a job for Victoria. So guess what … I am going to vote 1) Labor … 2 ) Liberal, and thereafter in descending order, those I think might have some reasonable initiatives. Because that’s the way I think at this moment and I have EVERY RIGHT to vote that way. It’s every voters right to put numbers where-ever they darn well like on ballot papers. In a way, that would be stipulating ‘first past the post’. But that’s only one vote.

    What then do you call me on that example – ( and in the interests of decency, please keep your reply IF ANY at least pleasant ?? ).

    ======

    p.s. ……

    Of course, one can take the easy way out – put a big heavy handed line through it all, and add a short but derogatory comment.
    Which makes the vote null and void – as an informal vote. Come the Federal election, I rather think there will be a very big upsurge in informal votes. Enough ? to cause an unprecedented predicament. I doubt it … but ……………

  82. Terry2

    The G20 Finance Ministers meet in Cairns next week : 18 – 20 Sept, I’ll let you know if there are any noticeable increases in security around the place.

    PS: If you saw INSIDERS today, the segment at the very end had Abbott in tuxedo giving a speech : there was something decidedly strange about his appearance, or was it my TV set ??????

  83. CMMC

    Apparently Scots College st Bellvue Hill maintains an arsenal of all manner of firearms.

    This was revealed recently when a group of thugs tried to break into the cache.

    How many other ‘Private’ schools have such weaponry funded by the taxpayer?

  84. Anne Byam

    @Terry 2 …. I agree …. have been watching the Abbott since he was in India where he was alleged to have had a virus. He looked like sh*t then, and still does.

    The strain is definitely showing …. and if he is overloaded and overwhelmed it is entirely of his own making. I doubt that he has the fortitude to withstand it much longer.

    I don’t wish anyone ill health – ( except maybe the ISIS mongrels ) …. but he does not look good.

    Am only repeating, what I have said several times before in the past week or so on here. His body language speaks volumes.

    Mind you, it could be a bit of an act too … to illicit sympathy, but I very much doubt it.

  85. Anne Byam

    @CMMC …. I think many schools have security now. My husband has a job that takes him on the road quite a bit …. and he told me just last week, that mody Jewish colleges and schools, have heavy security. He often has to visit schools etc., and does know what he is talking about.

    Mind you, Jewish schools would be very much a target for just about anything, including the anti-semitism that abounds in certain sections of the community here ….

    Can’t say I blame them – or any school for beefing up security. Also for protection of children, from the unwanted attention of people wanting to abuse them, one or another.

  86. mars08

    The comment was made that…. “Swing voters are not numbskull’s that’s why they are swing voters…

    I offered my opinion that many swing voters ARE numbskulls.

    And that prompts stephentardrew to reply that he thinks “lumping all people together is just lazy thinking. “

    Yes indeed… generally speaking… generalisations are an example of lazy thinking. But then EVERYONE does it, right?

  87. Dave Bradley

    Abbott is such a boring dictator at least Kim Il Sung liked movies
    any way i might as well do the quiz
    1. Terror alert
    2. Political stunt
    I think i’ll go for…..2. Political Stunt
    OK No more jokes it’s not funny but then it’s just TV – time to vote big brother out of the house

  88. Anne Byam

    Mars08. Yes – me again !! I did in fact qualify that you said MANY, not all.

    Yep … generalisations … we all do it. Not sure it’s all lazy thinking … might it be tiredness, at times ?

    My poor husband can be said to utter MANY generalisations; he’s tired from work, and comes home to get a big mouthful from me about politics. ( WHICH I HAVE NOW STOPPED, IN THE NAME OF KEEPING PEACE !! ) ….. The last thing he wants to face is an in depth discussion about Abbott or anything else to do with politics. — and he ain’t no Liberal either !

    Oh how I yearn for a bit of “lazy thinking” myself. ……. But I can’t get this rotten, rabid & dangerous Government off my mind, and I spend a lot of time studying, researching. ……..

    Have a few good non-political books beckoning ….. reckon I might just go there. 😉

  89. Stuart Dobson

    Oh LOOK! We’re taking military action now. Mystery solved. 🙂

  90. Kaye Lee

    “Fools rush in: Tony Abbott joins a war without definition

    The smart thing for Western leaders in the wake of John Kerry’s session with Arab leaders in Jeddah on Thursday last, would have been to bide their time. And it would have been smart too to bide their time a bit more after Sunday’s grim reports of another Westerner beheaded by these crazed thugs who strut as Islamic freedom fighters in the deserts of Syria and Iraq.

    But Tony Abbott leapt straight in – committing 600 Australian military personnel and more aircraft to the conflict, thereby giving the Arab leaders good reason to believe that if they sit on their hands for long enough, the West will fight their war for them.

    Even as Abbott made his announcement in Darwin, the US Secretary of State was trailing his coat-tails in Cairo, making little headway with pleas for assistance from a murderous military regime that will shoot its own people, but seemingly dares not volunteer to face the so-called Islamic State on the battlefields of Syria and Iraq.

    Either collectively in Jeddah or in one-on-one meetings with Kerry as in Cairo, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman and Lebanon all have baulked at making explicit military commitments to confront a force that they all see as a direct threat to their thrones, bunkers and, in one or two cases, tissue-thin democracies. With the exception of Iraq, which has no option because it is under attack at home, none has publicly committed military support.

    Conversely, Abbott was coy in claiming that this new deployment did not mean that Australia was at war. Australia has been at war since its first airlift of weapons and ammunition to the Kurdish Peshmerga in the north of Iraq last week.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/fools-rush-in-tony-abbott-joins-a-war-without-definition-20140914-10gtib.html#ixzz3DHEDexMZ

  91. Kaye Makovec

    Thank you Anne Byam for saving me from replying impolitely to Mars08 🙁 Perhaps he was being sarcastic.

    And I much prefer the word ‘some’ to ‘many’ 🙂

    To me a swinging voter is one who can think about the policies put forward and vote on the party they consider has the best ideas and not one who follows a party no matter what. If neither has any ideas we think have merit then we have the choice of an Independent or The Greens (or other), whomever we think may be the best to stop certain policies from going through.

    And most certainly are not “narrow-minded, distracted, disengaged, lazy, bigoted, self-absorbed, short-sighted numbskulls.”

    If I was the spiteful name calling type I could suggest that some people who blindly follow their preferred party no matter what they do or how much they stuff up is more likely to be narrow-minded, distracted, disengaged, lazy, bigoted, self-absorbed, short-sighted numbskulls. But I won’t 🙂

  92. mars08

    I don’t have a preferred party. Haven’t blindly followed anyone for about 20 years. In the last few elections I have “settled” for one which wasn’t entirely repulsive. But I am still waiting for Mr Right…

    If you are a swing voter and come to theaimn.com to be informed and exchange ideas… then I’d suggest you are not one of the MANY “narrow-minded, distracted, disengaged, lazy, bigoted, self-absorbed, short-sighted numbskulls”. But please… let’s not pretend they don’t exist in large numbers. After all there’s a whole media industry dedicated to them!

    One question though… why did the LNP put so much effort into destroying Pauline Hanson? Was it because they feared that losing the votes of all those open-minded, focused, engaged, curious, tolerant, civic-minded, long-sighted citizens would make their lives difficult?

  93. Anne Byam

    How right you are Kaye …. ….. a war without DEFINITION. And Abbott’s great leaps towards what he thinks is ‘his’ world(ish) leadership !!! LOL. Well it certainly looks like that’s what he is aiming at !! Then again – does he actually KNOW what he is aiming at ? Given the obvious state of his mind, and the tyranny with which he rules his ‘forces’ – that being the rest of the incumbent Government. nothing further would surprise.

    Note that he has taken off for Arnhem Land this week for a ‘holiday’ ? …… this time last year, he absolutely PROMISED a visit to those regions within the first 2 weeks of any Government he might lead.

    Took him all of 12 months to get around to it. !! Better late than never …… EXCEPT when it comes to rushing in to a ‘war’ ( gosh, he must just LOVE that word ) ….. opposite to the more reserved and reasonably thought out moves, non-moves or counter-moves that other countries are taking – including the U.S.

    He’s a sad and dangerously unruly case ….. and should be outed – then ousted.

    ======

    Am still not sure that the beheadings were true or not. I think it was Kaye ( correct me ) who proferred the thought of the possibility of propaganda, with those alleged beheadings.

    This is an interesting read ( if you can stand it … although it IS written as carefully as possible, and is not graphic in the telling ) http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/death-steven-sotloff …. and from that, one comment :

    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    ” Indeed, ISIS leaders couldn’t have made the prospect of American airstrikes more likely if they had sent a video to President Obama begging him to drop more bombs.

    Which raises a larger question: What could these people possibly hope to gain from such an act?”
    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    What indeed ? Possibly, the use of the best weapon in history …. FEAR …. to incite global instability, reaction and comment. To put themselves in view of others in the world. An evil lot of bastards, for sure. To be brought down – for sure.

    Politics – the main agenda ………….

  94. mars08

    “What could these people possibly hope to gain from such an act?”

    My guess would be credibility, “legitimacy” and support from the people in the lands they control. Let’s not forget that ISIS is loathed by many people they now “govern” and probably most of the local Sunni groups they are allied with. Their actions have alienated a lot of people in the region. It’s worth remembering that al-Qaeda was relatively unknown in the Arab world before the Sept 11 attacks.

  95. Anne Byam

    Mars …. unfortunately, you — we all, are waiting for Mr / Ms. Right, and I don’t see him / her on the horizon at this time. Have been asking for us all to wait for Labor to do something pro-active, but it hasn’t happened yet, and I am now forced to consider it might not. I was believing – and while I still do, the barrel is getting right down to the bottom – dregs, much as I am loathe to admit.

    Which makes me literally cringe and cry. How else are we to get these current buzzards out of their illusionary ‘power’ ?

    =====

    Kaye Makovec ….. thanks for the comments, particular relating to .” and not one who follows a party no matter what.”

    Our ( hubbys’ and my ) families – BOTH lots – are blue ribbon, blue tie, blue any bloody thing – Liberals. We are the black sheep and why ? Because we DARE to think for ourselves. ….I can truthfully use some of the words ( sadly ) …. “narrow-minded, lazy, bigoted, self absorbed (very ) … and short-sighted. I draw the line at calling them numbskulls however !!! It’s a little sad, in fact. But, we still speak, chat, email, share and enjoy, etc., as long as we keep to mundane matters, family stuff, and saucy little bits of goss.

    Needless to say, politics is not discussed too often, over the dinner table. !!! Actually, 100% never.

  96. Anne Byam

    Yes Mars08 …. that’s also what they aim for. But their ascendency is now on the wane – as you pointed out …. and hopefully they will see nothing but the long walk off a short pier – in a very short while.

    Meantime, we go into the fracas … boots and all, and spend millions doing so ………. while our budget is ‘in a mess’ — courtesy of Labor ( of course ) …. according to the incumbents.

    I am soooo freaking sick of this mob and their crass moves, which are not being taken too much notice of, by the ‘bigger’ powers at this time either.

    As some Chinese sage allegedly once said ( the jury is still out on that one ) ” We live in interesting times “. ……… And we do.

  97. mars08

    Yes… “into the fracas” indeed.

    I was wondering what’s going to happen to the territory in question if… if ISIS in comprehensively defeated. With the resulting power vacuum… and America saying it will have no troops on the ground… will that part of Syria go back to the lovely Bashar Al-Assad?

  98. mark delmege

    You could ask the question ‘why these beheading videos’ there are plenty of real ones on youtube. And there are plenty of youtube videos of Israeli snipers targeting Palestinian children or Israeli tank crews laffing as they blow up houses and apartments.

    The point is ….it is highlighted and promoted and no doubt manufactured as a psyop – a psychological operation and emotional driver to guide you into accepting more wars – like all those fake bin Laden videos – murder incorporated red white and blue. Lets go flush another ten thousands souls down the shitter. Dont ask don’t question Lets kill with glee we are right and they will be dead – whoever whereever all the way to Damascus.

    The thing is the Israelis have impunity to kill and maim as they choose. No R2P for Palestinians not even fake sympathy. Don’t you worry about that. No need to be emotional when it comes to Palestinians. Led and fed – do what you are told.

    Don’t you worry about al Assad mars. He at least is defending his country against the likes of us.

  99. stephentardrew

    Mars8:

    Good point. This whole thing is a minefield of complex and interwoven variables that the likes of Abbott have no grasp upon. I am sure our diplomatic service are tearing their hair out at the stupid posturing by Abbot making us into a ready made target. Every intervention in the Middle East by Western nations have been disasters so what the hell is different this time. Sure I don’t want genocide or people murdered and tortured however if the Arab League are not coming along for the ride then what the hell are we doing there. Kerry seems incapable of convincing even Egypt to act while Turkey allows ISIL to export oil across its borders. Iran, Quatr, Saudi Arabia (funding nefarious dissidents), the Kurds, Sunni, Shia are a bunch of self serving dogmatists and dictators that lack cohesion in confronting ISIL. Obama is in the same position as Abbott though he is a much more sophisticated player. Internal political concerns are influencing foreign policy. Abbott’s preemptive push before Kerry has finished his sojourn through the Middle East is just grandstanding self-aggrandizement for the benefit of voters. The military industrial complex also have their greasy hands all over this conflict selling to friend and enemy alike. Maybe not directly however the weapons are not necessarily secure. Please someone write a clear paragraph that presents adequate solutions and outcomes. Point is it cannot be done.

    Classic no exit situation in that every time we get into the Middle East it damn well gets worse. Am I stupid or something? I am not offering a solutions because at the moment there is none seeing the necessary participants are so fractured. And somehow we are going to be the heroes riding in on white horses to save the day.

    I don’t think so.

    Abbott is a fool.

  100. mars08

    Kaye Lee:

    …giving the Arab leaders good reason to believe that if they sit on their hands for long enough, the West will fight their war for them.

    Whoa. I think you’re overcooking it a bit there.

    How did the current situation in Iraq and Syria become “their war”? Why are the Arab leaders responsible for unmaking the omelette? An omelette which the US and partners stir up every so often by adding a few thousand tons of high-explosive eggs? There is a century of western intervention in the region… democratic governments have been deposed for NOT sitting on their hands. Yet now they should take the initiative?

    In no way are the leaders of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt and the UAE selfless saints… but to ask them to take the lead (now) in sorting out this increasingly complex mess is preposterous!

  101. mars08

    stephentardrew:

    This whole thing is a minefield of complex and interwoven variables that the likes of Abbott have no grasp upon…

    I looked at a few Arab blogs today and spotted a few things that may muddy the waters even further…

    Seems that ISIS is looking to form alliances with other anti Al-Assad groups in Syria. These are groups that have been strategically insignificant in opposing the Syrian government, or have kept clear of ISIS for fear of being over-run with nutjobs. Hopefully they’ll sit on the sidelines and let ISIS crumble.

    Nearly 80 Sunni Arab tribes, who call themselves the Military Council of the Tribes of Iraq… and joined with ISIS against the government in Baghdad… say they will resist any move to restore control to the central government. That would be the end of new Iraqi PM, Haidar al-Abbadi’s attempt to lead a government of national unity that consists of ALL Iraqi political factions.

    And finally…

    Bashar Al-Assad has said that any foreign aircraft entering Syria will be engaged by the Syrian armed forces. So, the target list could quickly grow to include Syrian forces as well as ISIS fighters. This will lead to the insane situation where Syrian forces are trying to shoot down planes which want to bomb their enemies!!!

    Go Team Australia!

  102. corvus boreus

    And hey presto, within a week we go from performing ‘humanitarian aid drops’ of armaments and munitions to the Kurds, to a full war footing with the deployment of ground troops and strike-jets in a distant, messy, factional fight.
    There is still the distinct possibility of us opening up a second front by wading into a proxy war with the Russkies.
    The old chestnut of aggressively deploying overseas ‘combat advisers’ has returned without a hint of query from our main opposition party.
    In the past, the strategy of force projection by deploying advisory troops into regional wars has proved an exercise that escalates in cost exponentially.

  103. Kaye Lee

    mars08,

    I understand your comment about the Arab leaders. Those weren’t my words, a straight copy and paste of the linked article. I do, however, think it is a minefield for us to commit troops without their agreement and support. I feel like I am standing at the edge of the croc infested river together…1 2 3 everyone jump….and I look back to see all the others still standing on the edge as the crocs come for me.

  104. Möbius Ecko

    mars08 and the complication grows. What I heard on RN this morning.

    Many of the Arab countries in the region, Saudi, Oman, Kuwait, Jordan, Qatar, UAE, Yemen etc. some not exactly friends, that were loosely cooperating in rallying against ISIL have now stepped back since America has gotten a COW of Western nations together to do their work for them. Kerry is bragging they are providing support, but this is in the way of air space and bases but little else.

    Many of these Arab countries because of their oil wealth are very well armed, having the latest technology in weaponry and military training. The West can’t sell enough of the latest arms quick enough to them, and it’s a lucrative market for the big defence companies, especially America and Europe.

    So the West at great expense to itself does the fighting for ME nations it sells advanced weapons and military training to.

    On the expense side of things I noted that late yesterday our Defence was stating its resources will be severely stretched by this long term deployment of front line assets to the ME. That’s not subtle code for “give us more money”.

    For a government that has made such a huge point on a financial crisis and budget emergency it’s behaving like drunken sailor on pay day.

  105. Lord Antiu mm & arhh Man

    Of course its a stunt, A typical tory stunt, Over in England Cameron is flogging the same tune, NOW LETS GET SERIOUS How on earth can anybody with Lying Tonys Credibility be taken as telling the truth and that’s in everything out of his mouth “If his lips are Moving its a Lie” . his community standing is poor and Heading down so the Man of Many Lies will try anything to turn that around , Nuff said. Our PM is a Master Liar and nothing he tries can change that Perception, Once a Liar always a Liar
    Everything He does is a stunt Now when he talks its the Hands out in front of his body I have never ever met anyone who talks like this I hope it doe’snt catch on

  106. mars08

    Kaye Lee:

    …Those weren’t my words, a straight copy and paste of the linked article…

    Sorry Kaye Lee… I didn’t realise it was a quote.

    I am astounded and frustrated at the simplistic portrayal by the media and politicians of the latest phase of the war in Iraq. It’s little short of infantile story-telling… without any acknowledgement that we are seeing a direct continuation of the illegal and needless invasion of Iraq in 2003. There is barely a whisper about OUR part in helping create this chaos!

    The silly black and white tales focus on ISIS as the only force behind the violence north of Baghdad. The dynamics in Sunni areas of Iraq are complex (and not always sectarian)… and ISIS is only one faction in the insurgency. The media likes to portray it as an invasion into Iraq yet at least half a dozen Iraqi groups that took part in the offensive against the central government.

    And looking at those black and white tales, I get the impression that the meeeja can’t resist paint this as part of the “White Man’s Burden” of bringing civilisation to the dark masses… the idea being that all was just fine in Iraq and the west (being obviously wise and benevolent) must restore order to the primitives. No doubt these racist undertones ring true for many in the Australian electorate.

  107. Libsareliars

    Phony Abbott is an opportunistic scumbag. He is a pathological liar who is willing to risk sending our fellow countrymen into a war simply to make himself more popular. Just take a look at our budget and how he targets our most vulnerable. He is disgusting.

  108. Rod Wise

    Here we go again.

    Once more the metaphorical cry of “Boots and Saddles” echoes across Australia, as we gear up for another military plunge into the cesspit that is Iraq, as though engaging in armed conflict in a country in which we have no strategic interest was as superficial as a script from a John Ford western.
    This time, we are told, it is to liquidate a “death cult” that epitomises evil. Last time it was to cauterise “weapons of mass destruction” that epitomised evil. Last time, many thousands of deaths later, the supposed reason why we invaded Iraq proved to be at best a fallacy, at worst a downright lie. What will the next “months and months”, in the words of Tony Abbott, show about the world threat posed by ISIS/ISIL? Time will tell. But, unfortunately, more Australian lives may be lost in the telling.
    However, there are a few observations that seem to this writer to be essential if this latest adventure is to be seen in any truthful context.
    FIRST. The geniuses who orchestrated the 2003 invasion, Bush Junior, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Blair, Howard and the rest of them, have been remarkably silent about these recent developments. And that’s hardly surprisingly, when one considers that those behind the latest flap would argue that they are cementing the legacy of 2003. Evidenced by Abbott claiming that our new involvement is at the request of the Prime Minister of Iraq. (Sounds awfully similar to the claims of the Menzies-Holt government that our involvement in the Vietnam quagmire was at the request of the South Vietnamese government.) Perhaps, with the wisdom of hindsight, those geniuses concede, by their silence, that this latest flap is serving only to confirm how ephemeral and fantastic was their supposed legacy of 2003, a democratic Iraq.
    SECOND. Surely, the experience of the years since 2003, with daily news footage of beheadings and suicide bombings, would have told our esteemed leaders that the concept of a democratic Iraq, as we understand it, is ludicrous. That only fools rush in where angels fear to tread, as the old saying goes. The racial antagonisms and the medieval religious obsessions which criss-cross that patch on the map ought to have alerted our leaders by now that throwing your weight around, just because you can, is no substitute for a thoughtful policy that is realistic given the peculiar circumstances that apply in the target country. While Obama may be circumspect in how far he goes this time, he is still reacting to US domestic pressure above all else, and does anyone seriously believe that the Republican blowhard who will inevitably follow him in the White House in 2016, will exercise a similar restraint? Are we doomed, then, to relive all the other failed adventures that have characterised US foreign policy since the collapse of the Soviet Union went to their heads? Like Somalia? Like Afghanistan? Like Libya? Like Syria? Etc, etc.
    THREE. The mutually antagonistic mosaic that lies within the arbitrary, cartographic lines that define the boundaries of Iraq ought to daunt any sensible Western policy-maker. While the ultimate enemy, Iran, may be Shi’ite, its people are Persians. Their allies (and our “friends”) in Iraq, the Shi’ite majority, are Arabs. The so-called “Sunni” opposition are both Sunni and Arab. Their “enemies”, the Kurds, are also Sunnis. The north-eastern Kurds, who we are now arming, are part of a wider Kurdistan, that includes great swathes of Turkey and Iran. And we wonder why Turkey won’t come to the party in the fight against ISIS/ISIL when, you can stake London to a brick, that much of the munitions sent to Erbil, will end up in south-eastern Turkey. Iraq is a dog’s breakfast. Especially when you throw in a further element, the Christian minority, which is currently under attack by the Sunni ISIS/ISIL forces although it was once a pillar of the Sunni-dominated Saddam Hussein regime that was overthrown in 2003 by the “Coalition of the Willing”. Iraq was always a can of worms from which the 2003 invasion ripped the lid. That is the real legacy of the Coalition of the Willing.
    FOUR. To repeat the point, only fools rush in where angels fear to tread. While the Americans have consistently shown themselves to be over-reaching fools, the real tragedy of the past two decades has been the poor role played by the British. As the power which constructed “Iraq” in the aftermath of the First World War, they, more than any other power, would understand the realities that underpinned balance-of-power diplomacy. After all, they held most of the world in thrall to their influence for a century with an army that could fit into a phone box. But rather than exercise any restraint on the Americans, as the Germans tried to do in 2003, they have consistently refused to be out of step with US foreign policy, apologising for its instinctive adventurism, for no visible return whatsoever. Such is the lingering legacy of their failed Suez expedition in 1956. Such is the true decline of a once-great power.
    FIVE. And now our turn. How timely is Australia’s enthusiastic embrace of this latest Iraqi adventure, coming so soon after Abbott’s “tough talk” bombast over Putin and Ukraine. It is so empty and so transparently tailored to Australian domestic considerations, like everything that Abbott does and has ever done, that it is sad to see the Australian media buying the line so readily. The dismal performance of David Irvine, the head of ASIO, in failing to convince us that there is a genuine threat to Australia from returning Jihadists (none of whom is said to have been in ISIS/ISIL), should raise in any sceptical mind, the question about what exactly are we paying for with this elaborate and expensive security apparatus that has been imposed on us. And now we have a new terrorist threat level? Higher, even, than after the Bali bombing? And they won’t tell us exactly why? But coming at a time when the Abbott government is floundering and desperately needs to work out some deal with the Palmer United Party well away from the constant glare of publicity? Don’t make me laugh. What we are actually paying for is protection of the Abbott government. The same government which claimed a budget “crisis” to justify its attacks on the Australian standard of living but which, it seems, can find any amount of money to further its own interests and survival.
    FROM ROD WISE, ARMIDALE

  109. Christine Farmer

    The raising of the terror alert level, the rushing in with troops to The Middle East, the rushing in to involvement over the Malaysia Airlines planes – all efforts to make Abbott look like a Strong Leader who will Take Care of Us, while in fact dividing our society even further into haves and have much less.

    I’ve a horrible feeling that all these stunts are part of a long-term strategy to take us up to the next election. There will be a creation of fear and uncertainty, of noticeable, irritating, but pointless so-called ‘anti-terrorist’ activities, and no doubt immediately prior to the next election there will be the news of a terrorist plot which has been foiled by our brave ASIO/Federal Police/Customs etc., so we will realise How Safe Abbott’s brilliant government has made us, and rush out and vote him in again.

    How many more times are we going to rush into someone else’s war? We never learn. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan – all disasters for the countries, not to mention the loss of life of the invaders and the invaded. Why are we not putting those vast sums of money into preparing for a war which we fight most summers, that against bush fires?

    And the whole thing about terror is that it depends on being unpredictable. Personally, I shall ignore this self-serving nonsense of Abbott’s. It’s nothing but a political stunt.

  110. Annie Byam

    Well said … to just about everyone here ( imho ) …..

    Noticed that Joe Hockey fronted the cameras’ today …. in lieu of his esteemed leader who is ‘roughing it’ in Arnhem Land. !!! Oh what an outdoors, sportsy, extremist in physical being ( huh ???? ) and ‘toughie’ Abbott is ……….. N O T. ……

    The pursuits of a bully-minded creep. ( no offense intended to sports minded people here ), with more photo-ops … for ‘his excellency’ being photographed in front of tents and rough terrain etc. etc. ( the rough terrain is in fact quite beautiful, but recently spoiled by the intrusion of a troglodyte PM ).

    Anyway, back to Hockey – he said ( not verbatim ) that ‘we must cut the tentacles of invasion into this country, by the likes of ISIS / ISIL” …..and a few other inane remarks, …….. and was clearly out of his depth. Perhaps he didn’t even BELIEVE what he was saying ? Could be ….. !! ….. Cut what invasions ? The return of Australian grown ‘jihadists ‘ to this country to do their darndest against us. The possible invasion here, of a feet on the ground army, bent solely on wrecking the Middle East at this time ? With all the supposed security in place now ( terrorism alert – high ) … terrorists returning here, wouldn’t stand a snow-balls chance in hell.

    As for those who are already here, awaiting their opportunity – let’s hope the amount of security, alleged by this Government, is in fact up to the mark. There is no more detemined a creature than those who have a total and obsessed mindset to do great damage.

    Thing is, there is a lot WE have to CUT …. our own apathy toward Government, for one. CUT allowing this divisive mob of thieves to affect a division in us as a country and a community, CUT the permission to this Government, to run rough shod over our proud people – – with its draconian measures, put forward as legislation ( whether legal or not ) …. CUT the intrusion into our privacy ( and that IS happening already I believe ) … and CUT …… the utter bullshit, delivered daily via MSM – or more to the point – television newscasts.

    Yes Christine …. FEAR AND UNCERTAINTY … is the name of the game for this rabble. And there is nothing more debilitating … that is unless he has chosen the WRONG people to try to debilitate and divide. I believe he has chosen wrongly ….. we have a proud tradition, and young though it is, it is strong – and will take many generations to breed out of us ( if ever ).

    And Abbot thinks he can do this overnight ? ( more or less ). To destroy our fabric. He has another think coming – and the faster his ‘think’ declines, the better for everybody.

  111. Annie Byam

    Please let me qualify one remark in my previous post …..

    ………..” there is a lot WE have to CUT …. our own apathy toward Government, for one. ”

    I do hope you realised that I did not mean we should raise our standards TO this current Government ….

    Was in fact ( and should have been sure before posting ) ….. saying we have to cut our own apathy toward the Governmental PROCESS that resides in our Constitution, and that ‘Government’ means all Government employees – including the Opposition Leader, Bill Shorten … or simply – the Labor Party. ( and others with something positive to produce and process ).

    I was not implying we should cut out apathy towards the incumbent Government …… in fact, quite to the contrary. We should be MORE than apathetic towards THEM …. downright angry in fact, and willing to do something / anything to get them out of office asap.

    That’s all …….

  112. Choppa

    well children – i guess your latest leftard conspiracy theory leaves you with egg on your face once again eh. How was your 9/11 inside job party this month anyway? To bring myself down to the maturity of you lot I will say one thing – LOL.

  113. All's Not Lost

    Hey Choppa, you know associating 9/11 conspiracy theorism when the “left” of politics is to know stuff all about 9/11 conspiracy theorism, right? Oh, wait, no you don’t because you just did it.

  114. Choppa

    All’s – im just teasing – only because i’ve seen 9/11 mentioned a number of times in the comments at this site. Its always a laugh reading about how “people have been conned by the government, by the mainstream media” yet every third article here is about a conspiracy and every gullible commenter jumps aboard! I’m still waiting for some new mining industry articles – since all previous ones have been proven beyond doubt to be completely incorrect!! I still see people mentioning Kev’s $900 TVs as a reason we survived the GFC – get out of 2012, the Labor/union lie machine isnt in power any more.

  115. claude191

    This article looks really silly now. Sent an apology to Abbott for impugning his integrity yet? Probably not.

  116. Bacchus

    “Abbott” and “integrity” in the same sentence? Have you been asleep for the last couple of decades claude?

  117. mark delmege

    i.e. http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.au THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 2014
    Malaysian Flight MH17 crash analysis, by The Russian Union of Engineers

  118. Annie Byam

    Putting aside our political leanings …. the horrid fact is, that these terrorists mean business. They have shown that over recent weeks with their horrific beheadings, or perhaps even ‘ suggested ‘ beheadings. But all is in the name of FEAR. Fear is divisive, and designed to keep people submissive – in any way possible. It has been a tool used throughout the ages.

    This grisly lot, are after one thing only ……. dominance, fuelled by religious and political ideologies. I cannot imagine what they could hope to gain politically. …. they have no standing, and are not recognised by anyone – even their own ( arab nations from which it is alleged they come ). They don’t seem to want oil, I doubt they want land ( that would mean having to maintain the land in order to survive,) and they don’t necessarily want an actual ‘home’ to call their own. Wandering alien creatures with an insatiable blood lust.

  119. claude191

    Bacchus, I am directly “on topic” about the credibility of the article. Can you explain how your ad hominem comment supports or contradicts the point of the article?

  120. stephentardrew

    Claud191:

    Abbott and integrity in the one sentence is an oxymoron. Proven compulsive liars have no integrity or coherent sustainable logically consistent veracity. The man is a liar full stop. Evidence abounds. Go hide under a rock if you can’t contribute rationally to the conversation. Bacchus stated recognizable and verifiable facts so your ad hominem critique is just plain irrational. Get a grip man.

  121. Bacchus

    You may choose to behave like a sheep claude – I’ll remain sceptical of anything this government tries to “put over” us 🙄

    Sydney dawn counter-terrorism raids: why now, and why so few answers?

    Journalists were recruited to cover anti-terrorism dawn-raids, and lapped it up with no questions asked – it seems large media organisations are willing to be played like a trout

    A solitary intercepted phone call, over 800 police bursting into homes in Sydney and Brisbane, hovering helicopters, 15 arrested and detained, four charged.

    The charge against Omarjan Azari, aged 22, is conspiracy to prepare for a terrorist attack. The prosecution alleges, “there was a clear imperative to commit an act to shock, horrify and terrify the community as a whole”. The plan allegedly involved “random selection of persons to rather gruesomely execute”.

    Stripped of all the crypto-military flourishes and the connection with Islamic fundamentalism, the charge might have been conspiracy or solicit to murder, under section 26 Crimes Act, NSW. Another man was charged with firearms and ammunition offences and released on bail.

    Yes, we need to be “alert not alarmed” – alert to why the political class is trying to keep us all alarmed. 😉 John’s article loses absolutely no credibility after recent events – yours however is shot to pieces.

  122. DanDark

    Claude is a Tony lover, no hope for them, they are a lost cause, integrity and Phony Tony lol
    now that is funny, toxic tony wouldn’t know what integrity was even if it was to jump up and bite him on the arse,
    but then again, he sold his arse to the highest bidder along time ago
    integrity and Tony now that’s funny lol lol
    Too many comedians like Claude and Choppa and Neil on here now, it’s a laugh a minute lol

  123. DanDark

    Pity they didn’t do dawn raids on the Catholic Church and it’s pedophile priests a few years ago,
    may have saved a lot of future kiddie sexual abuse victims,
    who are the real terrorists in this country and have been for decades ?
    The mainstream and ABC meeja are a joke in this country….

  124. claude191

    stephentardrew, DanDark: thank you for agreeing with me the article got it wrong. If you didn’t agree with me you would have said so and provided an argument as to why it is correct. Instead you make up stories about my opinions, or deflect the argument to other points about Abbott’s integrity where I have said nothing (at least not here).

    Bacchus: thank you your second comment; it is exactly on point to the credibility of this article. But that analysis you posted is wrong. Sure, if all those things are stripped from it then you get “conspiracy to commit murder” and “firearm charges”. Yet the author (or the article you posted) provides no *reasons* why those things can be stripped.

  125. DanDark

    I disagree with Claude because Claude is a bott, no brains, just trolls along spewing crap 🙂

  126. corvus boreus

    claude191,
    Clarify, with details and evidence, why you think subsequent events make this article look silly, let alone why an personal apology to A. Abbott(for impugning of integrity) should be tendered by the author.
    Also, you might like to provide a reasonable case that the alleged intercepted communication soliciting an act of violence was not in direct response to our announced involvement/intervention in the middle eastern sectarian/factional shit-fight.
    It is very poor form to make a few simplistic, unclear generalisations, then crow a moral victory when those who disagree with you do not provide complex, irrefutable rebuttals with airtight corroborating material.

  127. claude191

    corvus boreus, it is very simple. This article says Abbott raised the threat level purely for political purposes. Recent events reveal the actual reason: intelligence raised suspicions that criminals were planning an act of terror. The author made a false accusation.

    If you accused someone of doing something bad and found out you were wrong, what would you do? There is no shame in an apology; only credibility.

    I will not make the case you want: I don’t believe it to be unrelated.

    I didn’t ask for irrefutable argument or evidence. Just ANY kind of reason/logic instead of name-calling, diversions to unrelated arguments, or making up opinions on my behalf.

    My initial comment was unclear and general. It looked clear at the time in the context of the unfolding raids. Fair cop.

  128. corvus boreus

    Claude191,
    If the intercepted incitement occurred after the announcement of the deployment of Australian forces, it would be easy to argue that the announcement to upgrade the security status was pre-emptive of a likely(predictable) response from the ISIS/L fundamentalists.
    This would validate the accusations of deceptive and cynical manipulation(I will admit that on form I am highly suspicious of Mr Abbott’s motivations and honesty).
    Do you know if the intercepted incitement to terrorist acts preceded our announcement of involvement?

  129. Möbius Ecko

    Given Abbott’s proven propensity for lies, deceit and manipulation, along with the coincidental timing of this event on several fronts, then it’s not unreasonable to posit the entire thing was a staged event.

  130. claude191

    corvus boreus,
    I don’t know that. And I’m not sure it is knowable as agencies probably don’t release such info. But if I was to guess I’d say our involvement in the recent Mid East crisis precedes the intelligence. Intelligence like that has to be acted on quickly, so it will be pretty recent.

    Assuming that to be so, and then accepting the conspiracy that the govt is getting involved in a war for political motives, it still doesn’t validate the article. The article is very specific and doesn’t even hint at a wider conspiracy; only that Abbott unnecessarily raised the threat level for political purposes.

    BTW, that wider conspiracy is convenient; it cannot be confirmed or denied. I can construct a conspiracy that Abbott funded the eastern Ukranians to shoot down MH17 for political motives. Same thing. Convenient conspiracies are worthless.

    Abbott’s motivations and honesty (and integrity)?

    This is a man who did not shy from the claim of an illegitimate son. He acted honourably throughout. This is a man who has for decades volunteered enormous amounts of his time to community services. Despite all the potential for political capital, it has until recently been virtually unmentioned. His work with indigenous people has mostly been quiet and private.

    But Abbott is heavily compromised by the ridiculous promises prior to the election. I want HONEST political discourse; not empty promises before and dissembling afterwards.

    Abbot has imperfect integrity. Like all politicians. Frankly, like everyone. But viewing everything through the “He is corrupt!” lens is just silly.

  131. corvus boreus

    claude191,
    If your “‘He is corrupt’ lens” comment was directed at me, you are now projecting opinions(Don’t you hate that?). I expressed suspicion based upon prior behavior, not assumption of guilt. Any corruption would need to be proved(or disproved), preferably in a federal ICAC.
    The paternity issue was only addressed when brought into the media spotlight, and his community service activities have often been claimed as a public expense(amongst other suspect and false claims).
    The empty promises, dissembling, and out and out lies told by Mr Abbott, as well as his divisive, inflamatory and absolutist political rhetoric are some of the basis of my suspicion as to his character.
    As for the rest of your post(especially the Ukraine digression), our interpretations and values obviously differ to the degree that further discussion seems an unproductive exercise, although I share your desire for honest discourse.
    Thank you for your civility during this exchange.

  132. claude191

    corvus boreus, no not directed specifically at you. Directed somewhat at the article but in general to the anti-Abbott writings that…. the best word I can use is “rant”. It doesn’t change votes or inform debate. It just confirms biases.

  133. claude191

    corvus boreus, oh, and also thanks for the honest chat and sensible sentences! 🙂

  134. corvus boreus

    Respect returned, fellow human. 😉

  135. Möbius Ecko

    “It doesn’t change votes or inform debate. It just confirms biases.”

    Would be interested if you make the same statement in the right wing blogs, or when Gillard was in power, on the rabid rants against her?

    If you did, which I doubt, I wonder if you got the same civil discourse. If you didn’t aren’t you displaying the bias you accuse the authors here of?

  136. DanDark

    in all my life I have never seen a more biased attack than the one on our first female prime minister
    even the attack by the rabid rabbott inferring her father died of shame because she was his daughter
    the dinner menu made up by the libs, and she should be put in a chaff bag etc etc, there are too many to list here

    but Claude can go jump back to msn, he attacked Johns article first thinking he was right…….wrong choice Claude
    John K has got more integrity in his little finger than Phoney Tony, but Tones has never been big on integrity his whole life
    ask Miss Ramjett….he dosnt like to lose, even though he is a loser and always has been…

  137. claude191

    Mobius Ecko,
    I comment on what I see – mostly following links off FB from friends. I’m not sure how I came across this particular article. In any case, the uncivil discourse seems to me to be same everywhere. And silly shrill right-wing comments about communists, lefties, dole-bludgers, etc. are pretty much exactly the same in terms of debate: pointless.

    DanDark,
    I agree with you that the attacks on Gillard were stupid. There were plenty of reasons to criticism Gillard about policy and plenty of policy for which to thank her. Personal attacks such as those of Alan Jones were unspeakable.

    I attacked this article because events have shown its central thesis to be incorrect. Integrity doesn’t make your right (or wrong). Admitting your mistakes when you are wrong gives you integrity.

  138. DanDark

    so Abbott has no integrity because I never heard an apology about the attacks on her especially about her father dying of shame from Abbott, so no integrity because according to the dictionary this is the meaning of integrity, not apologizing when you stuffed up, that is remorse isn’t it ?

    integrity
    [ ɪnˈtɛgrɪti ]

    noun

    1.the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles:

    “a gentleman of complete integrity”

    synonyms: honesty · uprightness · probity · rectitude · honour ·

    More

    2.the state of being whole and undivided:

    “upholding territorial integrity and national sovereignty”

    synonyms: unity · unification · wholeness · coherence · cohesion ·

    Powered by OxfordDictionaries · © Oxford University Press

    See more
    .
    Integrity – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity

    Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and morals.

  139. DanDark

    Abbott repeated the dying of shame thing in Parliamnet, just twisted it to, This gov is dying of shame,
    the master of bullshit is our Rabid Rabbott

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