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TracieJuly 22, 2016 at 9:23 am

Hi Kaye,

Monis was Shia. ISIS are Shiite.

It’s a fantastic article by the way. I love what you have written. It’s very apt.
FreethinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 9:26 am

Look at the “performance”of George Christensen yesterday:

In his FB page (The Guardian source) Quote
“Failed terror attack on a police station in Merrylands tonight. The same police station had received terror threats by radical Islamists last year.

“I wonder how quickly some idiot is going to inanely say this has nothing to do with Islam or talk about a religion of peace or blame those who oppose radical islam on even Australia as a whole for marginalising some ‘disaffected youth’.”

NSW police assistant commissioner Denis Clifford told reporters later on Thursday: “That’s not one of our lines of inquiry. There’s nothing to indicate this is in any way related to terrorism. We’ll keep an open mind, but we’re not leaning that way at this stage.”

Then George Christensen said:
“Surprisingly for Merrylands, this incident may not have been a terrorist attack as the ABC originally reported it to be. News is still rolling in, so we will see.

“But the point I make in this post is not lost: why is it every time there is a terror attack (here or overseas) we get the same platitudes from the Left and the political & media elite.”

End of Quote

Which hope we can have with individuals like him in government!!!
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 9:27 am

I thought ISIS were Sunnis? Shiites are followers of Shia.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 9:39 am

Freethinker,

How typical of Christensen. Facts, who needs ’em? And I love his gratuitous buck passing to the ABC for getting it wrong. I hope that our intelligence agencies drag Pauline and George in for a good talking to about the responsibilities of their position and the harm their intemperate language causes and the damage it does to the work the police are doing.
markJuly 22, 2016 at 9:43 am

We have an education programme on both one punch assaults and also domestic violence so why not a programme on muslim radicals. Monis had an isis flag with him in the seige. The others mentioned certainly were terror related. Then we have the ones that the police have aprehended before anything happened. Unless this is discussed and brought into the open then people will be suspicious of all rather than the few.
TurnthetideJuly 22, 2016 at 9:44 am

So what do we do? Wait around for a disaster to happen then pick up the pieces afterwards. I’m sure the people in Nice now think the same. What was our government doing? Why Why Why. Noone knows why these sick arseholes do these things especially after been given safe haven in a good country. They do it because that is what their cause is! To kill, maim and destroy everyone who speak out about Islam. Sometimes there is no reason! It’s a sickness! Are we to be that blind and stupid before doing something about it before it happens! As soon as someone stands ups and speaks out then they are branded racists! These events are happening more and more frequently around the world and if we don’t so something to stop it then Governments must be held accountable for the loss of innocent lives. Stop believing that because we are Australia and far removed from other countries that it won’t happen here. We can’t afford to bury our heads in the sand.
TracieJuly 22, 2016 at 9:49 am

OK now I’m confused…. I thought Shiites were Sunnis, because I have only ever heard them being called Shia…. Sorry you are right….

Facts are never a strong point for these types. They refuse education, and believe education is left wing. I saw a video of Shermann admitting that he bashed a University of Tasmania student, with pleasure in his voice. George Christensen and Pauline Hanson are egging this type of behaviour on.

By the way, I have been to Merrylands Police Station (to go to the bathroom). There’s a large garage door that needs to be opened before any cars can drive to the underground carpark. The only blasts that could happen in that carpark would be due to gross incompetence, not because of any attack.
FreethinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 9:50 am

Kaye, now Christensen has a minister with the same ideology, Matthew Canavan so we are going to see more of that rubbish plus a lot of attacks to the “communists environmentalists”
I start thinking that the Abbott team was better than this one……

Regarding terror and victims of crime, I was watching ABC 7 30 last night regarding the Anglican Church and the paedophile cases and IMO the damage that these low life have done it is far worse that all the cases of terrorism that he have experienced up to the moments.
I just wonder how much resources the governments have allocated to help the victims and do justice.
TracieJuly 22, 2016 at 9:57 am

For those that believe we must target Muslims because they are a ‘terrorist religion’ and that we must ‘stop them before violence happens here’ – seriously, I’ve been to Pakistan. Terrorism exists there against other Muslims. I was left in peace the whole time I was there.

The issue is much more complex, so making a blanket reasoning to target all Muslims is simplistic, and shows that you are uneducated in international matters.

Why on earth should we be targeting Muslims living in Australia? What have they done for you to attack them so viciously, without any understanding that it’s the individual, not the religion? Why aren’t you even thinking about including them as people, rather than as a religion? Why have they ever done to you personally to make you assume that they couldn’t be good people?

Watch the movie “Blood Diamond”. It’s not the person who is good or bad, it’s their actions that are good or bad. And all people act in both good, and bad, ways.
wamJuly 22, 2016 at 9:59 am

Until the msm tell us that the religion of islam does not reward terrorists and murderers, nobody,including sunni/shia/other, can trust a moslem.
(anyone remember the treatment meted out to and by the mau mau?)

As for publicity sex and violence sells and lies are part and parcel of the armory of journalists.

As for sonya, pauline and george does anyone doubt their sincerity? As for brandis, turnball, murdoch and journalists does anyone doubt their insincerity?

The idea that men suffer domestic violence is ludicrous and a distracter from reform. Perhaps not for long considering roudy rousey, Aurukun and school yard violence.
ps why is the census collect data on moslem not shia sunni etc
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 9:59 am

mark,

Monis did not have an ISIS flag. The flag that was held up thew window was of the shahādah creed which just says there is no god but God and that Muhammad is God’s messenger. He asked for someone to bring him an ISIS flag but the one he had was just a common everyday flag.

You can name three people who have committed crimes that have a tenuous link to terrorism. They were all immediately killed. Two innocent people were murdered. A handful of others have been arrested for planning crimes. I ask that you put that in perspective to see what poses the greatest threat to us in Australia.

I would also ask that it be recognised that it is the Muslim community who have tipped off police allowing them to stop possible crimes before they are committed. Why demonise our greatest asset in fighting extremism?
helvityniJuly 22, 2016 at 10:01 am

Freethinker, I watched 7.30, and thought the same: these men of God are the biggest terrorists, they attack innocent children…
It’s almost unbelievable that it was still going on in the nineties, I had a restless night thinking about those abused whose lives were totally ruined.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 10:13 am

Turnthetide

“So what do we do?”

We punish people who actually commit crimes. We do not ascribe the crimes of others to innocent people. We treat each other with respect and tolerance. We identify areas of society where there are problems and we devote resources to fixing them. Education is important as is employment. More community services where people can seek help. Counselling, making young people feel valued members of their society rather than reviled outcasts. Resettlement programs with support for migrants. Mental health initiatives. There are so many positive things we can do to make all members of our society feel welcome and to make us all work together to provide for each other.

We will never have perfection. There will always be people who do the wrong thing. Do not afford them more importance than they deserve. Our police, aided by the community, are doing a good job. Stop making it harder by falling for the fear line. Don’t let them divide us.
TracieJuly 22, 2016 at 10:26 am

@wam I doubt sonya, pauline and george’s sincerity.

It’s hard for me to ascribe fear of Muslims when a Christian nearly murdered me in a domestic violence incident. It’s hard for me to believe that all Muslims are the same, when a Christian frauded me by telling me he had cancer when he didn’t in yet another domestic violence incident. It’s hard for me to tar all Muslims with the same terrorism and murdering brush, when Christian church elders tried to sexually assault me.

It’s hard for me to believe that men don’t suffer domestic violence, when I have seen men suffer domestic violence. Policy should include all, not just one group of people.

Kaye is right. Every word of what she has said is exactly how to mend our broken community spirit.
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 10:32 am

I just wonder whether the people who are so worried about Muslims have ever lived among them, in situations where you are very much in the minority. Flown in a plane, travelled on a train, caught a ferry, rode in a bus, shopped in a store, drank an Efes in a bar (yes some Muslims do consume alcohol), visited a Mosque, where you were the only one who wasn’t a Muslim.

The fear, the fear is so gut wrenching. ? ? FFS, some Australians are serial bed-wetters. They should get out more.
TracieJuly 22, 2016 at 10:42 am

@Matters Not

That reminds me of the mosque near Islamabad that I went to. The only thing I had to do in order to go into the women’s section was to hide my bare arms and hair with a scarf. It was a really interesting experience. Everyone in the mosque saw us, and followed us around as if we were celebrities. They all wanted to shake my hand, as well. I let an old lady shake my hand, and then was told that she would consider it good luck.

Alcohol was drunk by Muslims in a hotel room.

I was stared at wherever I went. No one came up to me.

I have some pretty incredible pics of my travels to Pakistan. I would definitely go there again.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 10:43 am

I also believe that much of the scapegoating is coming from economic reasons. We have had the racism where the ‘wogs’ were taking our jobs and the Asian hordes were flooding in buying up our real estate. Now we have religious intolerance but when you scratch under the surface, for many it comes back to ‘why should they get handouts when I am struggling’. They want someone to blame for the troubles in their life. It could be the Jewish bankers that are using the UN to take over the world under the guise of environmentalism. It could be David Icke’s lizard people.

If we stop the true terrorists – the global corporations – from their obscene pursuit of profit then we might stand a chance. It would be interesting to know who is funding IS and why. I severely doubt it is the mosques and halal certifiers.
markJuly 22, 2016 at 10:45 am

Tracie -so there was no one driving a car with gas bottles into the carpark -just incompetence. Next you will blame the roller door for squashing the car and hurting the driver.
Kaylee -there was a terrorist link as he asked for the isis flag . My mistake , he didnt bring it with him. On the others they all have a common theme -islam and terror. You add those “handful ” to what is happening around the world and you get a whole lot of hadfulls that again have a common theme.
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 11:02 am

Mark are you aware that the recently elected Mayor of London is a Muslim? Shock. Horror.

Are you aware that Ed Husic, Member of the Australian Parliament for Chifley, is a Muslim? And they keep re-electing him?

As for Monis, he was mentally ill. He lived virtually all his life as a Shia Muslim. He craved publicity. His connection to ISIL came via the MSM.

As for living in fear, have sympathy for those living in Christian United States where gun deaths are the order of the day (or perhaps by the hour). ? ? ? ?
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 11:04 am

mark,

You seem to miss the point entirely of what I am saying. We don’t live in the rest of the world. Our circumstances are unique.

France has a long history with colonisation of Muslim countries. They have problems that are not relevant here. We should not follow the mistakes they have made in dealing with their Muslim population.
PhilJuly 22, 2016 at 11:04 am

Kaye

Should I forward your article to George and Pauline?

Spot-on comment suggesting the “intelligence agencies drag Pauline and George in for a good talking to about the responsibilities of their position and the harm their intemperate language causes and the damage it does to the work the police are doing”

There’s merit in a program based on a well designed curriculum, delivered by the appropriate agencies, for ALL politicians who should be required to attend every year. They should also be required to undertake a post event comprehension test with results to be on the public record.

Given the pathetic standard and undisciplined nature of our political reps, it makes sense to force some discipline into their lives, if only for our own sanity.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 11:11 am

[We should not ask people to assimilate]

Of course we should. It should be expected. Assimilate does not mean to adopt entirely – but it does mean they have to change where there are conflicts. A lack of assimilation will certainly breed more terrorists or other forms of idiocy such as calls for sharia law.

“2 to bring into conformity with the customs, attitudes, etc., of a group, nation, or the like; adapt or adjust: to assimilate the new immigrants.”

I have no interest or regard for any working age migrant who does not wish to assimilate – most Australians don’t want them here at all.
This is Australia not some bullshit multicultural experiment to make the love obsessed experience motherhood feelings.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 11:18 am

jimhaz,

Assimilation means the minority give up their identity to join the majority – they are subsumed. Integration means the minority conform to the majority and the majority give a little in allowing the minority to retain their identity (within the laws of the land).

Are you so insecure that you feel threatened by difference?

“This is Australia not some bullshit multicultural experiment ”

What the hell does that mean. Do we all have to drink 50 schooners of beer and then eat a pie floater? Do we all have to wear cork hats and sing Slim Dusty songs? Tell me what I should be to be Australian? Should I be like Pauline Hanson?
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 11:21 am

Sadiq Khan clearly assimilated rather than just integrated. He does sound like someone I would vote for as a mayor. As a minister it might depend on whether he supported increased immigration, but as most do, I’d probably still vote for him as he seek to look after low income people.

“Sadiq Khan has stated that he received death threats for voting in favour of the same-sex marriage equality bill. There was a fatwa put out against him, in which an Imam declared him to be no longer a Muslim; he had been given police advice on protection”
RossJuly 22, 2016 at 11:23 am

I live in a small to medium size rural city, the ocean is a thirty minute drive away.
Statistically you have more chance of being taken by a great white shark while walking down the main street than being involved in a terrorist incident where I live. There are far more scary things to consider.
Take for instance the elderly drivers in this town. They scare the living daylights out of me.
AlynJuly 22, 2016 at 11:25 am

KAYE–LEE -; While I applaud your piece in general — I would say that you need to focus more on the Forest instead of the trees.
In subsequent posts you have alluded to other realms with reasonable thought, however, if you are looking to understand the so called -; “Feed the Fear” idea, then Pauline Hanson, Sonia Kruger & many others position needs to be looked at in far more detail.
Linking terrorism to One Punch OR Domestic Violence is a bit of a stretch.
Also -; Having a Tolerant Society is one thing BUT while those people who come to Australia bring their culture with them to transplant it here — there will be more fracturing of the Country until one day the collapse of this country will happen.
So — I would advise you to look at the “Forest” in an Holistic manner instead of the Trees to discover what REALLY is the cause of -; “Feeding the Fears”
TracieJuly 22, 2016 at 11:25 am

I will go further to say that forcing assimilation will bring the terrorism to us. Integration will not.

jimhaz did you just really mean that Australia wasn’t a multicultural society? Seriously? Have you gone outside the norm yet? Have you bought a kebab, pizza, some pasta, nachos or a curry before? All of this comes from multiculturalism. How on earth can you say it isn’t? You accept all of the different types of cuisine, but don’t accept the people who bring it?

Much of our cuisine comes from areas where there are Muslims. You will have to accept this, as fact.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 11:29 am

jimhaz,

Do you have any idea how many Christians have killed innocent people at abortion clinics because of their religious beliefs? Hysteria about marriage equality and a woman’s reproductive health are common to most religions unfortunately.
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 11:35 am

Over $35 billion is spent in fighting terrorism in this country yet other areas of government spending that save and protect lives are cut in the name of budget restraint, a lot of those cuts going towards that $35 billion.

Government policies that cut or do not fund services that look after individuals kill and do more harm than terrorist attacks. Even if the terrorist attacks dramatically escalated there would still be way more killed by non-terrorist related activities and neglect, nearly all preventable if properly funded and managed.

So imagine how many lives just a portion of that $35 billion would save each year. Of course there’s no fear to be had nor looking to be tough in doing that.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 11:38 am

As for assimilation, it is the Christians who have tried to make us all give up our identity and adopt theirs. I am sick and tired of being told we are a Christian country of Judeo-Christian heritage. I am sick and tired of our taxes being used to indoctrinate our children with compulsory Christian proselytising at school. I resent our politicians saying a prayer to open parliament. I resent the wealth accumulated by churches who demand exemption from taxes and regulatory oversight – too often they have abused their position.

Worship is a waste of time and money – but if we must have it then I will fight for the right of everyone to choose how they do so provided they cause no harm to others and they leave my children to make their own decisions.
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 11:41 am

The notion that Australians share a common ‘culture’ is just a nonsense. Yes there are those who claim to be real Australians characterised by a (supposed) shared, ‘common sense’. Sorry, it just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Years ago I worked with a fellow who was a practising Seventh-Day Adventist – a relatively strict Protestant sect. His PhD ‘investigated’ the ‘world view’ supposedly shared by sect members. In short, he found when it came to attitudes, values and the like, sect members ranged right across the ideological spectrum. He had trouble coming to terms with his findings.

If more people decided to scratch below the surface, they would find that their ‘common sense’ was not that ‘common’ and if they scratched a little deeper, they would find many of their treasured beliefs weren’t ‘sensible’ either.
FreethinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 11:48 am

Regarding Australia and multiculturalism I have found some differences between here and the multiculturalism is Uruguay and I cannot pinpoint where are the root of the small problems that we have here.
Uruguay have a long history of receiving people for diverse cultures, countries and wealth and perhaps more diverse than Australia also adding the large black African people .
Uruguay never have a multicultural policy, never provided hostels or subsidize traveling cost for people to come to the country.
Literally the “policy” was and is “that it is how the country it is, take it or live it”
Immigrants adapted to the country and its laws, they formed their own social clubs but they will never lived together in suburbs like in Sydney. That helped them to integrate faster in the new country.
I just wonder what will be Australia without that immigration/multicultural polices, will be the integration even better and faster without suburbs with the majority of residents from one or two cultures?
What do you think?
MercurialJuly 22, 2016 at 11:49 am

Sonia is certainly more at risk of being punched by a non-Muslim in the street. In fact, she may now have grounds to really feel unsafe walking down the street!
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 11:49 am

[Are you so insecure that you feel threatened by difference?]

Absolutely, if that difference is related to cultural backwardness and a total ignorance of reality.

It is not just about being threatened, but what is best for this country. Everything I see points to a dumbing down of Australia.
Me: “This is Australia not some bullshit multicultural experiment”

K: [What the hell does that mean]

If you support too much non-assimilation in effect it is like a king selling off parcels of Australia bit by bit to outsiders where what is sold it is gone for good. It is as if the more migration that occurs the more we long termers shrink and become meaningless, the forgotten Australians.

Bogans are a representation of what happens to forgotten Australians – physically dislocated people driven out to bland suburbs where there is no work as migrants have taken the jobs and made housing too expensive. Mentally dislocated people as the disciplines and expectations of a non-divided culture get corroded and rust away.

Tell me what I should be to be Australian?]

It is all about the attitude. Generational Australians or migrant Australians who choose to assimilate from the start have a different attitude than most others, however we have lost much of this. It is more forward thinking, generous, fairer and less or authority class obsessed, chivalrous, less prone to criminality, more direct, down to earth.

Last century the percentage of folks born OS was lower, and this meant the Australian attitude was more likely to be adopted by newcomers – there was more power that would lead to the conformity of attitude. With such a high immigration, education, 457 and tourist intake the power to cause the change to the Australian psyche is lessening. It is near dead in Sydney and Melbourne, less so elsewhere.
Con CreteJuly 22, 2016 at 11:50 am

I come here in the 60’s I do Bricklay and assimilate very well. assimilate is best.
helvityniJuly 22, 2016 at 11:56 am

…I now have a fear of flying, you never know when you will be terrorised by drunken Aussie revellers when travelling high up in sky….

Where’s door…?
WinstonJuly 22, 2016 at 11:57 am

jimhaz : For once i agree with you.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 11:58 am

[Have you bought a kebab, pizza, some pasta, nachos or a curry before? All of this comes from multiculturalism]

This a factor of migration, not of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is just the big meme that business uses to sucker people into thinking more and more immigration is a good thing.
helvityniJuly 22, 2016 at 12:01 pm

Con, at least you always have bricks at hand when someone wants attack you 🙂
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 12:03 pm

Threads like this, really reveal the shared culture of Australians.

So much evidence that we all think alike. That we all share the same ‘common sense’.

You can really see it in our voting patterns as well. ? ?
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 12:06 pm

[Sonia is certainly more at risk of being punched by a non-Muslim in the street. In fact, she may now have grounds to really feel unsafe walking down the street!]

That is certainly true. But you have to look at the reasons as to why so many anglos are going off the rails.

Immigration is just one factor –but it is one we can change by relatively simple policies and should do anyway for sustainability reasons. It is really very difficult to determine the causal links. For instance wealth itself creates a propensity to debauchery or drug taking.
The main problem I found with Kaye’s article is that she identified the media portrayal of terrorism as being a major cause of the inflated levels of fear – yet then goes to blame Hanson.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 12:08 pm

[I come here in the 60’s I do Bricklay and assimilate very well. assimilate is best]

Yep, migrants who assimilate are far happier. I say again it does not mean that you cant still carry out every cultural interest you had that does not conflict.
helvityniJuly 22, 2016 at 12:11 pm

helvityni, you better put your glasses on, you are dropping off too many little words: where’s THE door. TO attack you…
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 12:11 pm

jimhaz,

“[Are you so insecure that you feel threatened by difference?]

Absolutely, if that difference is related to cultural backwardness and a total ignorance of reality.”

That is exactly why Hanson and Christensen are a threat. They are culturally backwards and have a total ignorance of reality – a trait that seems common amongst their supporters.
Con CreteJuly 22, 2016 at 12:13 pm

Hey ! helvityni I resemble that !
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 12:14 pm

You really need to better inform yourself of the difference between integration and assimilation jimhaz. If you are happy for people to continue cultural practices that conform with the laws of the land, that is integration. They are entirely different things. Ask the Aborigines.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 12:15 pm

[As for assimilation, it is the Christians who have tried to make us all give up our identity and adopt theirs. I am sick and tired of being told we are a Christian country of Judeo-Christian heritage. I am sick and tired of our taxes being used to indoctrinate our children with compulsory Christian proselytising at school. I resent our politicians saying a prayer to open parliament. I resent the wealth accumulated by churches who demand exemption from taxes and regulatory oversight – too often they have abused their position]

So do I. But increasing the population of the religious is not going to help – particularly a competing religion as they just join hands on the rectification of faults such as the above.

Really though the problem has been great lately by the takeover of the LNP by the more fundie Christian types. Howards corrupt gifts to religion put them on a roll and they clearly planned an infiltration of politics. I hoping this is just a temporary problem that will decrease once we get a long term ALP government.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 12:22 pm

The countries who introduce policies we want such as Finland and Denmark have low overseas born population rates. To me this says something – divide and conquer is less strong, so they can evolve, rather than simply increase in numbers.

https://data.oecd.org/migration/foreign-born-population.htm
WinstonJuly 22, 2016 at 12:22 pm

Go Jimhaz !!!
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 12:30 pm

They are a far more clear and present danger than Muslims jimhaz.

I know you are anti-immigration but the facts show Australia needs it, both economically and socially. The fertility rate in Australia is 1.9 – below replacement rate. Unless we boost the number of young people in Australia, we are stuffed. Migrants are overwhelmingly of working age. They lift the three “Ps” of high economic growth – population, participation and productivity.

According to the Australian Bureau of statistics (ABS), the proportion of Australians who were born overseas, currently at 6.6 million people, has hit its highest point in 120 years. This corresponds to nearly a third of Australia’s population. Pushing a bit further, almost half of all Australians were either born overseas or have at least one parent who was. In fact, virtually no Australians alive today can dispute having at least one foreign ancestor. We are a nation of migrants.

Of the last 190,000 places available in Australia’s Migration Programme, more than two thirds corresponded to skilled migration, where deeply-valued human capital needs to be demonstrated before receiving residency. That is Australia’s biggest free-ride in the most sought-out form of capital investment. Migrants generally have high levels of human capital.

In November 2013, the ABS released a survey on the characteristics of recent migrants. Of those who obtained Australian citizenship since arrival, the labour participation rate was 77 per cent, which is above the national average rate of about 65 per cent.

Stop the fear and learn the facts.
John LordJuly 22, 2016 at 12:32 pm

Facts is facts.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 12:38 pm

[You really need to better inform yourself of the difference between integration and assimilation jimhaz. If you are happy for people to continue cultural practices that conform with the laws of the land, that is integration]

I still disagree. They however are both emotionally charged words. I think the EEO crowd in the 90’s stuffed up the meanings by using integration V assimilation as an affirmative action tool, otherwise I’d personally be happy to treat them the same way. I still see integration as making conformity more an optional choice than an essential requirement to be a citizen – it leaves more opt outs such as wearing burqas. I understated my expectations when referring just to laws, I also mean to progressively adopt the Australianness, while still enjoying their own cultural interests.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 12:43 pm

Why do you care what people wear or what they eat or where they go to church? Dan put much better what I am trying to ask.

As for wearing the burqa, I doubt very much that second generation Muslim women would make that choice – it’s too hot.

Though I did hear one woman say “it’s great….if I am running late in the morning to drive the kids to school I just throw it on over my pjs, don’t even have to brush my hair” which made me smile.
diannaartJuly 22, 2016 at 12:55 pm

The Australian Federal Police agree.

“Emotive headlines and the use of simplistic news grabs can help extremists amplify their deliberate strategy to incite fear and hate.”

Given that police are more likely to see more violence and its aftermath than any of us, I can only wish they could be given the opportunity to present this in Question Time.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 12:55 pm

I’ve been wondering when you might question me about this issue.

[Could you give a list of some sort of the type of things – attitudes, behaviours etc – that you wish to see excluded from the Australian experience?

Chinese often have very dog eat dog attitudes.
Asians generally are too conformist – they’ll do anything business asks of them.

Indians are often overly bureaucratic, yes men fiddlers who don’t particularly care about the end result in terms of added value just that they have employment.

Middle Eastern men have tendency to have anger management issues, excessive ego issues and are more easily lead into criminal activities.

[Just for the sake of clarity]

Umm, you mean to fool me into making racist comments.

Anyway it is my Friday booze time. Glad to get most of this out of the way before my limited inhibitions completely dissolve.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 1:09 pm

I agree Dan. I too am conflicted about the burqa, not for any security reasons, but for the idea that if any man sets eyes on me he will be immediately tempted in a sexual sense. But really, it’s only the same as Christianity in a way where women are viewed as vessels and vassals.

If a woman makes the choice then I support her. If she is forced into wearing it by others then I would say no. I fight for her right to choose. I still think education is the key and young women will be the ones to make the decisions and force the change that society in general must make.
wamJuly 22, 2016 at 1:13 pm

tracy “I doubt sonya, pauline and george’s sincerity” do you think they do not fit the description of ‘absence of pretence, deceit, or hypocrisy”

“It’s hard for me to ascribe fear of Muslims when a Christian nearly murdered me in a domestic violence incident.”
The religon of Islam is visible in the MSM as rewarding jihadists and ritually killing women.
Do you accept the religion of christianity approves of such violence?
Not all muslims are the same, not all Aborigines are the same, not all men are the same. not all terrorists are the same ,
It’s hard for me to believe that men don’t suffer domestic violence, when I have seen men suffer domestic violence. Policy should include all, not just one group of people. Individuals are not to be compared to insitutionalised violence towards women and should not distract the attempts at a solution.
TurnthetideJuly 22, 2016 at 1:17 pm

For heavens sake can you just lay of the Pauline Hanson and co issue. You and most of the people here are totally obsessed with her! The lot of you may just one day thank this woman for having the balls to stand up and raise her concerns for this country! You all go on and on about just about everyone in the country coming from somewhere else. That’s true, but we didn’t have to deal with stinking terrorists the world over killing and maiming innocent people either! So all of you, get your heads out of your arses and thank God someone in this country can stand up and be counted for the many thousands of Australians that do hold concerns! Have a nice life all of you!
DavidJuly 22, 2016 at 1:19 pm

When you have the prime minister telling the Australian people “ISIS is coming to get you”, this result was highly predictable!
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 1:30 pm

“For heavens sake can you just lay of the Pauline Hanson and co issue. You and most of the people here are totally obsessed with her! ”

One Nation Principles

“Australian values include honesty and speaking openly, directly and respectfully with complete freedom of speech and expression to ensure integrity and accountability. ”

Pauline talks a lot of ill-informed crap. As a person who values honesty and integrity I feel duty bound to hold her accountable for the rubbish she spouts. As an Australian, I feel it important to, not only point out my disagreement with her, but to offer suggestions on far better ways to address any problems we might have.

Pauline does a lot of whinging but I doubt her capacity to come up with helpful suggestions.
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 1:33 pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn8FsXYVUAA9-n0.jpg
FreeThinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 1:35 pm

Thanks again Kaye Lee for a superb article, illustrating the power of fear in the tendency of humankind to rationalise and project evil on to others perceived as different from themselves.

In times of high fear, the ‘us and them’ mentality reaches mythical proportions, ignoring many facts in the process.

Sadly, many Australians have poor or distorted understandings of the history of the nation.
Allow me to mention just a few of those threads.

Australia, from the beginning of British occupation was a profoundly militarised settlement. There were convicts to keep under control and indigenous people to subdue. Under the yoke of the British Empire, it is not surprising that Australia emerged as one of the most militarily adventurist of nations ….. and overwhelmingly, this was on other people’s lands. Thus aside from the una knowledged 40,000-70,000 indigenous people slain in the 19th century, we were represented at the Crimean War in the1850s, in different parts of Africa from the mid 1870s through to the turn of the 20th century, before becoming part of an invading force of Islamic Turkey in 1915.

As historian Joan Beaumont demonstrates in her superb book, ‘ Broken Nation’ , the First World War resulted in many fissures in the new nation’s social fabric ( despite the national hubris that has developed over the later decades, about Gallipoli ), with 65,000 deaths in a nation of then 4 million, with hundreds of thousands left with serious physical and psychological injuries. One consequence of this was that PTSD became a strong negative and socialising influence in families and the formation of young Australians in the decades following.

How do I know this ? Having worked as a psychologist and counsellor for 40 years, I have listened to and seen the cross-generational impact of war and family domestic trauma with its disastrous multi-headed flowerings, many hundreds of times. And with respect to the impact of military experiences, anyone can check the Veterans and Veterans Families Counselling website for corrobative evidence about the impact of PTSD.

But stuck in the same military adventurist groove, the Australian nation was part of the U.S. led invading force of Vietnam in the 60’s, and again following the Americans of Iraq in 2003 under John Howard’s lack of national leadership. It is like we cannot avoid making the same mistakes, given the relative status of our military exploits in the public mind vis a vis our achievements of being the first nation to recognise such things as the 8 hour day, or the First Nation to grant women the vote, and to stand for parliament, and to serve as a model to the world, of becoming a vibrant multi-cultural nation

Meanwhile, in the last 60 years, we have become gradually a nation that reflects the wider world’s citizenry. Some 30 % were born overseas from perhaps 200 nations. This collective influence has tempered some of the culturally and personally disabling traits in the national culture. After all, they have chosen to come here, most of us had no choice, we were just born here, and immigrants bring their drive to contribute and succeed in the nation they have chosen over their birth lands.

As a former university teacher, I have also worked with many admirable Islamic people in Indonesia, as well as people from other predominantly nations here in Australia. People are people everywhere, and how we treat strangers or those a little different from ourselves is dialectically related to their response. I also understand the symptoms of ‘ national sickness’ a form of which we been experiencing for two decades now. I am aware of how deeply emotionally damaged some individuals can become, and theIr personal experiences are not independent of this. Social and economic inequality is now one of this country’s most dominant features, and it brings with it many undesirable consequences, not excluding increased fear within the population.

And I am aware of the potential for healing both nations and individuals with effective early interventions and education. Let me conclude this post with a memory fragment of hope. In post- Second World War Australia, for understandable reasons, the Japanese figured among the highest in our ‘ other cultures ‘ demonology, yet some Australian soldiers married Japanese women.

In about 1959 at the high school I attended, we had a Japanese exchange student with us for 6 months. It was a far-sighted but controversial decision that the school made, bringing with it some community flack against the school. But this 17 year old, possessed with excellent English, sharp intellect, emotional intelligence and a capacity to relate to others very well, was a coup for Australian-Japanese relations in that regional community. Not long before his time at the school ended, he was voted the most popular student by that school community of 11 to 18 year olds.

As individuals, we all have a capacity to contribute to the common good, and, through our own actions, help healing processes, which includes the elimination of irrational fears.
TurnthetideJuly 22, 2016 at 1:37 pm

At least she has ideas that will keep Australians safe in the future if implemented. At least Pauline has the guts to stand up to people like yourself who do nothing but hide behind a bloody computer answering emails all day! Can’t say much for you except for reading the same crap day in and day out. What are you the world’s expert on terrorism and Muslims?
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 1:39 pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn8Gb3QVYAELs4E.jpg
TurnthetideJuly 22, 2016 at 1:39 pm

More to the point what the f…k is that? And your point is???????????????
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 1:44 pm

“At least Pauline has the guts to stand up to people like yourself who do nothing but hide behind a bloody computer answering emails all day! ”

Pauline has actually stated that she will not speak to the media if they criticise her. And you, petal, have no idea what I do for a living, what I have done in the past, or what I will do in the future. I do not consider myself an expert on anything. My aim here is to start conversations.
TurnthetideJuly 22, 2016 at 1:44 pm

Why is Pauline not suitable? Oh that’s right, she used to own a fish and chip shop so therefore she is not intelligent enough to stand for office! Now who the hell are you to put someone down just because she doesn’t have a degree, of some kind, to show she can think, listen, care, love, argue for the people and issues that concern her! You would have to be the most hypocritical morons on this panel today. Pauline is more than capable of doing this job and standing up for what she believes in and so does the 500,000 people that voted for her!
TurnthetideJuly 22, 2016 at 1:48 pm

DO NOT call me petal. No I don’t even care to know what you do for a living. You can’t think past your own pathetic ideals and what YOU think is right!
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 1:48 pm

Some might have seen this brave young Somali woman when she came to Australia

She poses questions that not too many are willing to answer for fear of retribution I guess

Human rights activist, founder @AHAFoundation, fellow @BelferCenter.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali ‏@Ayaan Jul 2

7 gunmen loyal to ISIS massacred 20 people in a Dhaka bakery. The murderers demanded hostages read the Koran. It doesn’t get more Islamic.

Why Don’t Feminists Fight for Muslim Women?

Islam’s Jihad Against Homosexuals
The rise of modern Islamic extremism has worsened an institutionalized Muslim homophobia.
By Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Free Speech and Islam — The Left Betrays the Most Vulnerable

http://quillette.com/2016/05/05/free-speech-and-islam-the-left-betrays-the-most-vulnerable/

my own limits were reached on watching the beheading of a 12 year old Palestinian boy, then the suggestion “We are still thinking if we should boil him” after they beheaded a child in #Aleppo today”
Watch it and then tell me Islam is love and peace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1YTS-4Hzs
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 1:59 pm

Dan,

I am a woman who has to endure her dearest girlfriends and family wearing make up, continually dying their hair, going on diets for no health reason, getting false nails, wearing false eyelashes, spending a fortune on really uncomfortable clothes, getting plastic surgery. I have to listen to people say, you would be so pretty if you would just get your hair done. You would feel better about yourself.

I am every day offended by the peacock mentality that expects women to ‘look pretty’. I hate what this does to our young women for whom adolescence can be hell as they strive to be ‘pretty enough’.

Women have to tolerate unwanted ‘banter’ in their workplace. They are totally excluded from the Catholic hierarchy.

And you want me to be offended by the symbolism of the burqa?
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 2:11 pm

Turnthetide,

I promise not to call you petal if you promise not to presume to tell me who I am. I at no stage mentioned Pauline’s lack of education so you can put that pre-prepared argument back in your file. Education is a life-long pursuit but it requires listening to experts, not the guy at the pub. It requires looking at the credibility of your sources. It requires self-reflection. It requires a willingness to be informed.

The things she is suggesting cannot and will not happen. Our constitution forbids religious intolerance/discrimiation. End of story.

The man she has trusted to advise her on climate change is a serial pest who has been dismissed by everybody.

Her foray into domestic violence and the family law courts is once again divisive, dividing men and women into a victim comparison game rather than uniting them in social change.

I do think Pauline is passionate about Australia. I also think she is a populist whinger whose ambition isn’t as altruistic as she would like you to believe and who lacks the skills to come up with viable solutions.
markJuly 22, 2016 at 2:14 pm

Yeah -matters not. I see all those christians yell Jesus is great whilst blowing themselves up or cutting off peoples heads . Kaylee – we live in a country based on christian values not a christian country. No one makes you become a christian. People send their children to christian schools because they want to ,not because they are forced to. The government funds all of the schools equally. Your point on us not being the rest of the world is plain silly. If we dont understand what is happening around the world then we can never pprepare for it. With the internet and global travel we are as likely as anyone to have terror thrust upon us. Also France – are you saying the teŕror attacks there are their own making ? If so -how.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 2:23 pm

nurses,

Do you have anything to contribute about Australia or are you too going to entirely ignore the point of this article to recount stories of atrocities committed in other countries?
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 2:25 pm

she is suggesting cannot and will not happen.

And for that she will be eternally grateful. Her ‘success’ relies on inventing ‘dragons’ that only she can slay.

And she’s also good at it, at least for the tiny minority who buy it. Her ‘demographic’ is easily recognised. Here and elsewhere.
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 2:27 pm

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3b/1f/c0/3b1fc0444ca3f84ae8fa8db71f3663de.jpg
Michael TaylorJuly 22, 2016 at 2:31 pm

Only she can slay, MN? Perhaps also only those she can see.
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 2:32 pm

mark. “The government funds all of the schools equally.”

Really.

Makes me wonder what else you get wrong if you can’t get that basic one right.
Michael TaylorJuly 22, 2016 at 2:34 pm

Hansonites amuse me. They claim that because X amount of people voted for her she stands up for all those people. They overlook that her party only got about 4% of the vote, meaning that a hell of a lot of people don’t like her.
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 2:37 pm

Yes Michael Taylor, at 2:31 pm, as I recall one of her number regards Islam as a country while others think Muslim is a race.

And so it goes. ? ? ?
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 2:40 pm

On Hanson’s lack of suitability to govern, I submit this exchange in which she seems not to understand the difference between revenue and spending.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. Pauline Hanson, so there’s a whole series of things here and Sam Dastyari raised one of them, the $50 billion tax cut to business, which was a key part of the Government’s platform. Will you support that?

PAULINE HANSON: And that goes out for how many years, Sam, okay?

SAM DASTYARI: Ten.

PAULINE HANSON: That’s right, exactly ten. So we’re talking about now. We need to address it now. The amount of money that this country owes, we cannot keep going the way we’re going, paying 13.5 billion a year in interest alone on our debt. The thing is they talk about the age of entitlements is over. Well, let’s start with the parliament at the top from the politicians. Let’s prove to the rest of the country that we can actually rein in our belts and start saving monies.

TONY JONES: But does that…

PAULINE HANSON: No, this – this…

TONY JONES: Can I just – can I just interrupt there?

(APPLAUSE)

TONY JONES: Does that mean – sorry. Thank you. Does that mean that the $50 billion tax cut over ten years, that you’ll reject that because it’s…

PAULINE HANSON: That is – that is not – no.

TONY JONES: Okay.

PAULINE HANSON: That’s small business, okay.

LARISSA WATERS: No, it’s not. (Indistinct) the definition.

PAULINE HANSON: That’s going out over ten years. What I’ve got to say is that a lot of the other spending that – that the government’s…

TONY JONES: So do you support that then? So just very briefly, do you support that one?

PAULINE HANSON: In principle, no, I don’t, the way it is, no. I think there’s other cuts that could be made that we need to do now, not over a period of ten years and I think that we need to do it. Foreign aid that we’re giving – even monies that we’re giving to corrupt countries that we need to look at where that money is going and rein that in. We need to look at the welfare bill, $180 billion a year. That needs to be investigated because I think it’s rorted with the welfare bill. That needs to be investigated as well. There’s so many other – even Government contracts and jobs, they are actually out of control and I want to see accountability of what we’re paying, the taxpayers’ dollars, to get these jobs done.

******

Pauline had no idea what she was talking about but she had a list of populist items she wanted to get out regardless of the topic. Her ignorance is humiliating.
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 2:51 pm

That one gets me as well Dan. I was also confirmed a Catholic, bought up in a strict Catholic household, went to Catholic primary and secondary schools, yet time and again I’ve seen and read about the same values in non-Christian societies, including primitive ones.

Same same for “Australian values” that Howard pushed hard. The values his government listed were the same in most societies the world over.

Why not just say humanistic values?
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 2:56 pm

the Koran does not mention the burqa

Yep! My info, from those who know such things, is that the Koran ‘speaks’ only about ‘modesty in dress’ for all. Not just women but men as well. That’s the ‘religious’ side of the equation. Add cultural factors and it’s a bit more complicated. But one thing we know for sure, the ‘burqua’ and its equivalents came well before Islam.

As an aside, when in Penang it’s interesting to watch those in a burqua take to parasailing. (I kid you not). Being a Muslim country, many couples from the Middle East choose it as a honeymoon destination.

As for a Christian ‘value’, I am nigh on two decades older and I haven’t isolated one either. Maybe it’s how we treat refugees? We seem to be …
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 3:01 pm

Kaye Lee, my comment was about Islam here there everywhere
Pappinbarra FoxJuly 22, 2016 at 3:20 pm

Kaye, you say we need immigration for economic and social reasons. But we need a smaller population for ecological reasons. In the end the ecological carrying capacity of this continent will prevail and there will be no economy or civilised society unless we recognise this imperative and take action to achieve it. You have been conned by the neo-liberal economists who’s voice currently prevails.
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 3:20 pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn7rmqIVIAAh3Py.jpg

Yes why do we spend over $30 billion on something that has such long odds of harming us but cut funds to those things that are short odds of harming us?
FreethinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 3:25 pm

I share the views of Dan and Matters Not, I lived in a boarding catholic agricultural college for 3 years, forced to study Catholicisms 7 days a week and the only that I have learned about values during that years is the the bloody church do complete the opposite to what they preach.
Perhaps they give me a favor to study because was a good way to learn that their religion it is only to have control of others to their own benefit.
I just wonder if cardinal Pell can elaborate a bit regarding his Christian values………
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 3:38 pm

I haven’t been conned by anyone at all PF. I am open to reading information. From what I have read, our carrying capacity has a ways to go yet and education tends to level out fertility rates. Overpopulation will eventually be a global problem but I don’t see it as a reason for discriminating against Muslims. If you would care to provide a link to a credible discussion about Australia’s carrying capacity I will gladly read it.

Our population is aging and our fertility rate is below replacement. Migrants come ready to work, already educated and usually skilled. That saves the country a lot of money.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 3:43 pm

[Kaye, you say we need immigration for economic and social reasons. But we need a smaller population for ecological reasons. In the end the ecological carrying capacity of this continent will prevail and there will be no economy or civilised society unless we recognise this imperative and take action to achieve it. You have been conned by the neo-liberal economists who’s voice currently prevails.]

She is wrong even outside of the ecological reasons.

Some examples:

What globalisation has done is make respect for employees redundant.
What globalisation has done is make wasteful and ultimately harmful to the soul materialism our new god.
What globalisation has done is created a class system that we do not know where it will end.
What globalisation has done is to create casual work lives without security and decrease the security of home ownership. A basic level issue in Maslows pyramid.
What globalisation has done is to prevent a necessary readjustment of salaries for low skilled jobs that are most needed in an aging population – in care services. This has affected women more than others.
What globalisation has done is make international competition too primary in own minds when we consider the future. We lose track of reality and think it is international trade that is the kingpin of everything, when in fact it is structural organisation that creates true wealth for the masses and that our country is resource wealthy enough “that no child need to live in poverty” without ANY further form of technological advance being required. The level of technology we have now would allow Australia to be totally self-sustainable and have full employment WITHOUT needing any external trade at all. What is there that we could not make? We would just have to suffer for a few years due to reorganisation costs.

High Immigration is akin to Free Trade agreements – a tool for a few to obtain wealth as part of their power and status ego games.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 3:56 pm

“High Immigration is akin to Free Trade agreements – a tool for a few to obtain wealth as part of their power and status ego games.”

Only if we destroy unions’ capacity to hold employers to account to pay award wages.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 4:06 pm

[I still have no freakin’ clue what a “Christian value” is…]

My view:

Christian values is essentially supposed to be that one provides support for the needy. This seems to be the reason it got to become a cultural foothold in the first place.

It is not something that is intrinsic in the islamic religion. Buddism has it in a more generalistic related way.

I see the Christian religion as people who think they have ownership of “care for others” and part of the reason psychopaths like Bernardi want small government – a big caring government takes the underlying Christian care role from them.

I am not suggesting they do it without selfishness including the selfishness of conversion, or do it without reluctance of payback (materialistic evangelists being the outcome), but it is still an underlying principle. I doubt the religion would have been adopted in Sth America or say island countries without this principle.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 4:10 pm

[Only if we destroy unions’ capacity to hold employers to account to pay award wages]

It does not help when we have a large immigrant intake from non-unionised countries such has India and asia. But I think the main problem for union decline is that the masses (not just here) reached a level where they were satisfied. The necessity to pay for a union membership became redundant.
FreethinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 4:18 pm

The union movement was destroyed in Australia by two factors, the main one the financial commitment by people that cannot afford even one day in strike and the second started with the Bob Hawk government.
The ACT cannot be part of a political party if this party when in power limiting the power of the workers.
I have experience in OS union movement and I think that ours is weak.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 4:28 pm

“It is not something that is intrinsic in the islamic religion”

Generosity: The Qur’an teaches us that we should be generous and give to the needy and share our wealth. In fact, Islam teaches us that the poor have a share in our wealth, so it is not optional to give charity. It is their right. Also, Islam teaches us to be generous and to give others from what we have, even if we have a real need for it. When the early Muslims of the city of Al-Madinah received refugees from the city of Makkah, they divided their entire wealth with them in half, sharing with them their houses, farms, animals and money.

http://www.questionsaboutislam.com/faith-beliefs-practices/islam-teaches-manners.php
TracieJuly 22, 2016 at 4:33 pm

Has anyone noticed that the greatest percentage of refugees throughout the world are helped by Muslim countries?

Kaye, again you are right. When I visited Pakistan in 2014, the people gave to the homeless often.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 4:38 pm

Kaye Lee of course an Islamic site would pick passages to suit.The Catholic church has St Vinnies and other charitable function they will tell you about.Child abuse, now I don’t think that would be in their glossy brochures either. What did it say about jihad
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 4:43 pm

Indeed Tracie.

In fact, the five wealthiest countries — which make up half the global economy — are hosting less than 5 percent of the world’s refugees, while 86 percent of refugees are in poorer developing countries that are often struggling to meet the needs of their own people.

Together, the U.S., China, Japan, the U.K. and Germany are hosting less than 1 million refugees. These five richest countries have taken 938,231 people, or 4.8 percent of the world’s 19.5 million refugees, even though they boast just over one-half of the cumulative global GDP.

The five countries that have taken the most refugees, on the other hand, are all developing nations. Together, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Pakistan and the Occupied Palestinian Territories host a staggering 50 percent of the world’s refugees, even though they make up less than 1.5 percent of the world’s economy.

Oxfam blasted the “dangerous trend of governments turning their backs on the world’s most vulnerable people and failing to uphold the spirit and the international law they claim to champion.”

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/10/the_5_richest_countries_host_just_5_of_refugees_86_are_in_developing_countries/

So much for Christians “looking after the needy”.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 4:47 pm

Umm , a website does not indicate the traditional effect of religious works upon the believers. It might be just propaganda, some of which is there to even up the score in relation to Christianity.

All it indicates is that given time they will go through an enlightenment period. A period they might have already had were it not for the Russian dictators that created the cold war.

http://www.questionsaboutislam.com/faith-beliefs-practices/islam-teaches-manners.php

For instance from the same site.

Islam provides guidelines for Muslims to adhere to during times of war. These include the following:

Civilians who are not actively involved in the fighting are to be left out and may not be harmed
Killing of women, children, the elderly is forbidden
Betrayal is forbidden
Mutilating corpses of the dead is forbidden
Cutting down trees is forbidden
Destroying buildings is forbidden
Killing those who surrender is forbidden

Not what we see in reality is it, even without the war bit such as in Syria?
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 4:51 pm

nurses

“Islam strongly prohibits harming civilians and destroying safe places such as homes and religious sites. It even goes to the extent of prohibiting harming the environment or cutting down trees.

Islam strongly forbids Muslims from waging war against peaceful people and nations that have not attacked Muslims or usurped their rights”

http://www.questionsaboutislam.com/terrorism-and-war/islam-terrorism-violence-against-civilians.php
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 4:57 pm

Has any of that happened here jimhaz? There are terrible things happening all around the world. Look at the mass murders that seem to be a daily event in the US. Why do you all insist on talking about what happens in other countries? Talk to me about THIS country and the people who live HERE and what actually goes on HERE. if you want me to be frightened about every bad incident you can find anywhere in the world, I refuse to join your paranoia. I deal with reality.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 4:58 pm

KayeLee then what would your response be to Ayaan Hirsi Ali as listed in my earlier post July 22, 2016 at 1:48 pm or to these followers of Islam and the 12 year olds family https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1YTS-4Hzs Why are they screaming allahu Akbar when they are killing this child?
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 5:02 pm

[The five countries that have taken the most refugees, on the other hand, are all developing nations. Together, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Pakistan and the Occupied Palestinian Territories host a staggering 50 percent of the world’s refugees, even though they make up less than 1.5 percent of the world’s economy]

Did they have any real choice though? And there is also far less cultural difference. The difference between the sunnia and shites is petty (like the differences in Christian religions whom have fought in past times).

Jordan is a middle eastern country I never complain about. Looks like they were lucky to have a responsible progressive government early on and did not have the winter sea ports the russians wanted from Afganisatan.

The EU does give a reasonable level of support. I’ve given up on the US – full of arseholes. I think the US represents the long term outcome of multiculturalism.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-migration/background-information/docs/eu_support_to_lebanon_and_jordan_since_the_onset_of_syria_crisis_en.pdf
markJuly 22, 2016 at 5:04 pm

Dan and Mobius -your taking the piss. Lived in a Catholic family and cant recognise. Charity , Compassion, Love , Inclusiveness , Fairness.
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 5:16 pm

nurses,

I have no intention of looking at your links and I wonder about your fixation with other societies. If you have anything to contribute about Australian society then I would be happy to listen. If you think that Australians should be responsible for the actions of every other individual/society in the world then I fear we will be unable to have any sort of meaningful discussion.
jimhazJuly 22, 2016 at 5:18 pm

[Why do you all insist on talking about what happens in other countries? Talk to me about THIS country and the people who live HERE and what actually goes on HERE. if you want me to be frightened about every bad incident you can find anywhere in the world, I refuse to join your paranoia. I deal with reality]

You are asking us to ignore what our brains see as patterns of behaviour elsewhere. Sorry that aint for me.

Again though, I’m not frightened by incidents OS or here as I don’t travel or go out much. I am frightened by the importation of more stupidity when we have enough already here that we are not dealing with at all.

Terrorism does frighten me a little bit – more so in relation to the dangers of government over control over the general population. The 1984 scenario. Maybe it has all been planned that way.
FreethinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 5:24 pm

Mark, I lived in a Catholic college and cant recognise child abuse.
I think that in that college there were more examples of Catholics that in your family, perhaps 100 to 1 ratio?
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 5:31 pm

What patterns? Tell me a society that is like ours that has followed some sort of pattern to ruin? Patterns in other countries have nothing to do with us. If you want to be worried about patterns of behaviour that ARE killing us then worry about lifestyle factors contributing to the rise in diabetes, worry about domestic violence, worry about alcohol abuse….these things are killing far more people here than terrorism. Get some perspective. Get proactive in making sure that Australia does NOT become an intolerant nation.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 5:38 pm

Kaye Lee I didn’t realise you had an Australian only phiposophy so world events globalisation, climate FTAs would not longer be on your list of concerns.I get it now,we are an island
Michael TaylorJuly 22, 2016 at 6:00 pm

No, Kaye doesn’t appear to me that she has an Australian only philosophy. Do you presume that because she doesn’t want to read your links or because her post is about Australia?
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 6:10 pm

nurses,

The whole point of this article is to point out that none of you can give a reason as to why Australians should be scared. You all refer to things that happen elsewhere. We cannot change society in other countries but we can sure as hell call out racism, intolerance, bigotry and discrimination in our OWN society in an attempt to protect the tolerant and free society that we have built. And that goes for all. Muslims who are intolerant, Christians who are intolerant, atheists who are intolerant. We have laws against discrimination. We also have an element of organised crime that is best dealt with by our police and intelligence agencies. Irrational fear only makes things worse. If you can tell me one thing that has changed about your life here then I will listen. if you want to share gory stories from the internet, I am not interested.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 6:32 pm

Michael Taylor Kaye Lee
So we just don’t discuss Islam even though the religion is global and in Australia
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 6:40 pm

Christianity is global. Egyptian and African Christians perform genital mutilation on their daughters. Is that relevant to Australian society? I agree we should be providing more foreign aid to educate girls in other countries but do you seriously want me to be scared for Australia because that happens elsewhere? I am scared for girls in those countries. Here girls have more to fear from drunken football teams and Christian clergy.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 6:48 pm

perform genital mutilation on their daughters.Is that relevant to Australian society? yes because they send them back to their place of birth to get butchered them come backhere again damaged.Don’t worry I’m an equal opportunity disliker of barbaric religions, but more particularly those that will behead a 12 year old, strap on suicide vest or live on our soil and head off to fight their wars in the name of Allah.I’m not an apologist for any of them
FreethinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 6:49 pm

Kaye, perhaps nurses includes what it is happen in other countries because human behavior does not have frontiers and what happens OS can happen here.
I do not like to put all the people or cultures in the same basket just for the behavior of few.
Möbius EckoJuly 22, 2016 at 6:58 pm

mark at 5:04 pm

For starters those things are not and have never been exclusively Christian, and for that they have only been fairly recently practised by the religion. The Church is not the keeper of morals, humans are.

Secondly the primary school I went to was oppressive. One nun in particular, who we called Mother Pterodactyl or Mother Terror, caned and strapped incessantly, at times causing bleeding.

Thirdly the secondary college I went to ended having two priests found to have abused boys. In an incident I was peripheral to the head priest and others lied and threatened violence if the perpetrators of schoolboy prank didn’t own up. One priest was so verbally abusive to parents of the boys one mother stopped being a practicing Catholic.

There were many good things as well but nothing more than what I knew was occurring in the high school down the road. Then there are many things done by supposed Christian priests in my time at the college that makes you question their supposed moral high ground. You also see it in the supposed Christian politicians like Abbott and Morrison. If they are the product of Christian upbringing and schooling then the Christian establishments certainly don’t have any right to be our moral keepers and teachers
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 7:04 pm

nurses,

That has hapenned – people sending their daughters back. There are very admirable young people to whom that happened leading the campaign against it. They don’t want revenge, they don’t seek to vilify the people who have done this. They understand it is a cultural practice from another place and so they seeks to educate parents. They explain the possible medical complications. They explain it is child abuse. These parents have not agreed to this practice through cruelty but through ignorance. Education is the key.

“Betul Tuna is a grassroots worker striving to support more women to resist pressure from countries of origin to continue FGM. As well as educating newly arrived communities about child protection laws and support for their own health needs, she takes a no-exceptions line on FGM.

“FGM is a gender-based crime. It’s violence against little girls for being born girls,” Tuna says.

HER South Sudanese colleague Thon Thon says more needs to be done to help identify girls at risk and to link people with networks to support their choice to discontinue it. He engages men in the campaign to eradicate FGM on child protection grounds and keep a watchful eye on girls.

“Most of the men say, ‘No, I will not let that (what happened to their wives) happen to my daughter’; let’s keep saying that,” Thon says.”

These people can make change because of the freedom and support they have been given in Australia. Do you want change or not?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/female-genital-mutilation-survivors-khadija-gbla-and-amal-kowhah-campaign-against-practice/news-story/75c19c2aabfcad082cff1fdf1c4634da
helvityniJuly 22, 2016 at 7:10 pm

Please ,please protect my children and grandchildren, and not just mine, but everybody’s children, from those Christian values that allow high-ranking men of God, or is men of cloth, to sexually abuse innocent children.

Shame on you, the Catholic and the Anglican churches. I’m absolutely horrified, disgusted, words fail me…
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 7:13 pm

Instead of being vilified, Australian Muslims should be held up as examples of peaceful co-existence and agents for reform. Help them to make change. Stop hating. Let the law deal with criminals and stop ascribing crimes to innocent people.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 7:19 pm

Kaye Lee a leading campaigner on female genital mutilation Ayaan Hirsi Ali the one you said about “I have no intention of looking at your links” which seems unfortunate and blinkered. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Dutch-American activist, author, and former politician of Somali origin. She is a leading opponent of female genital mutilation, and calls for a reformation of Islam
In 2003, Hirsi Ali was elected a member of the House of Representatives (the lower house of the Dutch parliament), representing the People’s Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD).
In 2005, Hirsi Ali was named by Time magazine as one of the 100 most influential people in the world. She has also received several awards, including a free speech award from the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, the Swedish Liberal Party’s Democracy Prize and the Moral Courage Award for commitment to conflict resolution, ethics, and world citizenship
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 7:24 pm

All of that is admirable. As is the work of Australian Muslims who have no awards. And by accepting them into our free society we have empowered them to be agents for change, The reason I wouldn’t click on your links is because you kept talking about a 12 year old boy being beheaded. I didn’t want to click on something I didn’t want to see. Perhaps you need to preface your links a bit better so people can decide if it is voyeuristic propaganda or information about positive reforms.
wake up sheeple!July 22, 2016 at 8:00 pm

Many thanks Kaye Lee.With people like you,I regain confidence in our beautiful Australia.when will the people wake up and see the truth? They have created a monster from the so called war on terror.That filthy monster has no religion,the main victims are us Muslims.their religion is power and the dollar.They have been recruited,armed,funded and trained by those who created the threat and engineered the fear for their secret agenda.fear is the key to control the masses and the mainstream media are brilliant at selling fear.did you notice that the “terrorist” brand is strictly reserved for us Muslims.when German Andreas Lubitz crashed the plane into the Alps killing 149 people was not a terrorist with no indication to his religion!!!!!As Susan Carland said,the facts no longer matter!!!!all we get suspicion,insults,and ignorants spreading lies and pushing for royal commission into our religion and CCTV cameras in Mosques not the churches that witnessed systematic sexual child abuse by the most trusted pedophiles!!!!!I am a proud Muslim Australian.I am an engineer and an artist and still meet people trying to liberate me from oppression and the head scarf.This is my choice,I am not oppressed.In fact,we women mostly are the one in control so please save your energy for other stuff!!!!I pray for God,same God as yours, five times daily and nobody can stop me from such blessing.Pauline Hanson,Stop the mosques but you cannot stop our prayers.We will pray in our homes,at work,parks and the streets.This is our peaceful beautiful religion not the brand of the monster.

Please read :Funding Islamophobia: $206m went to promoting ‘hatred’ of American Muslims.
http://crg.berkeley.edu/node/1006
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 8:18 pm

wake up sheeple,

I thought we would be able to get sensible when we got rid of Abbott with his boogey man is coming to get you crap. And then we got a close to hung parliament with George Christensen feeling all empowered and now Pauline has made a comeback – twenty years later and still just as ignorant, just as populist, just as effective in sowing discontent and just as ineffective in suggesting positive reform.

I feel for you and ask that you recognise that not all Australians can be judged by the cretins we elect, just as Muslims should not be judged by the fools who are duped by terrorists to be their cannon fodder.

As my father always said, give me the courage to change what I can and the strength to endure what I can’t.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 8:34 pm

Khaled Elomar who asked Hanson the question on behalf of his son needs calling out too
On Monday’s Q&A, Elomar had challenged Hanson on her policies towards Muslims and the religion of Islam, which include a ban on all Muslim immigration to Australia.
On Facebook Elomar has mocked the One Nation senator, calling her “Sheikha Pauline Hanson” and depicting her wearing a hijab. One post tells Hanson to “Go Upper Cut Yourself”.

The Tasmanian senator Jacqui Lambie is also targeted by Elomar and referred to on Facebook as “ugly”, stupid” and “a deformed creature”.
Other posts on Elomar’s Facebook account includes criticisms of “Zionist Israel” as well as capitalism. One post said: “The Zionists and capitalists of the world ‘Go f*ck yourself’ … We want peace motherf*ckers.”
Another post said: “The world is waking up to the crimes of Zionism/Capitalism. The world is extremely cognisant of the bias and flawed western foreign policies. Islam has a vast international supportive audience.”
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 8:56 pm

nurses,

I agree with a lot of what Khaled says though he perhaps needs to understand that capitalism, greed and corruption are not unknown to Islamic leaders and are no doubt fueling a lot of the violence we are seeing.

I assume that came from the Murdoch press who seem to do in depth profiles on anyone who dares ask a question on Q&A. That is kind of despicable don’t you think? Should I do an in depth personal study on you if you choose to comment here?
Jack StrawJuly 22, 2016 at 9:28 pm

Yes Yes Jimhaz I think you’ve got a spot of I am as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore. We know what we need to do in our own country. Too much Globalism overseas experts etc. We dictate our own circumstances. Screw USA China and Europe .
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 9:40 pm

Kaye Lee Should I do an in depth personal study on you if you choose to comment here?
If you like go ahead. Do you see that as some sort of veiled threat?
Kaye LeeJuly 22, 2016 at 9:54 pm

No. I would see it as a totally unnecessary intrusion. It’s become a pattern used by Murdoch press. is that where you got it?
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 10:00 pm

Did you use it as a form of intimidation?
Why did you totally avoid the abuse of women, and no, I read it on facebook
Michael TaylorJuly 22, 2016 at 10:02 pm

What a pity that some politicians and some sections of the mainstream media have made people so hateful.
BacchusJuly 22, 2016 at 10:34 pm

“no, I read it on facebook”

An yet, we have a direct cut and paste from the MSM from you nurses1968!

“On Monday’s Q&A, Elomar had challenged Hanson on her policies towards Muslims and the religion of Islam, which include a ban on all Muslim immigration to Australia.

Pauline Hanson and Sam Dastyari clash over Islam on ABC’s Q&A

On Facebook Elomar has mocked the One Nation senator, calling her “Sheikha Pauline Hanson” and depicting her wearing a hijab. One post tells Hanson to “Go Upper Cut Yourself”.

The Tasmanian senator Jacqui Lambie is also targeted by Elomar and referred to on Facebook as “ugly”, stupid” and “a deformed creature”.

Other posts on Elomar’s Facebook account includes criticisms of “Zionist Israel” as well as capitalism. One post said: “The Zionists and capitalists of the world ‘Go f*ck yourself’ … We want peace motherf*ckers.”

Another post said: “The world is waking up to the crimes of Zionism/Capitalism. The world is extremely cognisant of the bias and flawed western foreign policies. Islam has a vast international supportive audience.”

I call BS – why lie? Ashamed of your views or sources?
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 10:40 pm

Yep we have failed to ‘educate’. When I was growing up, the maps, with red arrows from the North, had the majority shaking in their shoes. Now we have the Muslim threat with people who have no understanding of Islam (and no evidence they have read anything ‘academic’ about same) again shaking in their shoes.

Just to be clear, I am an atheist, a non believer in some ‘Supreme Being’ but I also recognise that I am in the minority.

I think that Islam is a load of shit. In the same way that western religions are also excrement. Believing in a ‘God’ who is ‘divine’ is beyond the bounds of credibility as is the notion that his son (also divine) was born of a virgin. Really?

I have sat in the dirt in an ‘ancient’ church in Nicaea (present day Iznik) and relived the arguments re the Nicene creed. (You know where the ‘rationale’ for both ‘father and ‘son’ being without beginning or end were developed). And I did so because I was trying to gain a greater understanding of what I regard as ‘nonsense’, while admitting that my view is not widely shared.

And so it is with Islam. And the ‘meaning’ some adherents give.

The education we provided has failed us. Hopefully the education we provide in the future will serve us better.
nurses1968July 22, 2016 at 10:53 pm

Bacchus
No I’ll say again I read it on facebook.If that was sourced from MSM so what he either said it or he didn’t.Are you saying he didn’t?
Carol TaylorJuly 22, 2016 at 10:55 pm

Kaye Lee and, “As for wearing the burqa, I doubt very much that second generation Muslim women would make that choice – it’s too hot”. And the same for 2nd generation girls and women of Greek descent who started objecting to having arranged marriages (a good Greek boy from the right village) which was still prevalent in the mid 1970’s. Funnily enough a friend of mine went back to Greece to discover that the good Greek values her parents espoused were from the 1950’s and her Greek peers were wearing mini skirts the same as everyone else.

I know from Muslim lady-friend with 3 daughters that one of her daughters wore her hijab with pride as a symbol of her heritage and family but her 2 younger sisters didn’t want to ‘just in case the kids at school laughed at them’. A pity that women can’t wear what they want without it being judged by..men mostly.
Carol TaylorJuly 22, 2016 at 10:57 pm

Matters Not, most of those who espouse ‘Christian values’ wouldn’t know what the Nicene Creed was…
BacchusJuly 22, 2016 at 11:10 pm

nurses1968 – I cut & pasted that directly from an MSM source. If you’re silly enough to blindly accept what you read on facebook as evidence of anything… 😉

Perhaps you didn’t get the full context by limitting your self so much? 😉
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 11:26 pm

Carol Taylor

those who espouse ‘Christian values’ wouldn’t know what the Nicene Creed was

Really? Are you also suggesting that the ‘revision’ of same as amended in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed also escapes them. ? ?

I’m sure that those who advocate ‘Christian’ values and the like will soon appear to put you right.

But maybe not. It’s so much easier to believe in things you don’t understand. Saves time. And mental energy.

But perhaps it matters not. ? ? ?
FreeThinkerJuly 22, 2016 at 11:27 pm

For a well-informed perspective on some of what has been discussed here, see

JOHN TULLOH. Shrugging off the effects of the Iraq invasion.
EvanJuly 22, 2016 at 11:33 pm

Of all the articles and comments I have read on IAM the comments on this one really disturb me. The article by Kaye Lee was just common sense which I am aware is a scarce commodity these days but I really did expect more rational comments from the IAM community. I am sorry to say that for what I regarded as an informed readership gives me a fear for the future of Australian society as a whole
The AIM NetworkJuly 22, 2016 at 11:39 pm

Evan, many of us have also been disappointed with some of the comments. Certainly, people are of course entitled to hold whatever view they wish and should be free to express them, but the disappointment comes in the lack of tolerance people have towards others.
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 11:40 pm

did expect more rational comments from the IAM community

Can only agree. So many ‘scared’ people lashing out. And no rational evidence for their reaction.

BOO!
Matters NotJuly 22, 2016 at 11:53 pm

A final comment:

was just common sense

just common sense. The evidence suggests there wasn’t too much commonality in the comments above, and further there wasn’t a whole measure of ‘sense’. Perhaps the concept of ‘common sense’ needs revisiting (and discarding), given that it’s now lost its explanatory power. Just like the concept of ‘phrenology’ was embraced and then discarded so many decades ago and is now confined to the dustbin of history.
wake up sheeple!July 23, 2016 at 1:21 am

Nurses1968,
As they say “the bigger the lie,the more it will be believed”.You honoured us with the shining profile of Ayaan Hirsi Ali ,but you forgot to complete it with:Dutch citizenship controversy
In May 2006 the TV programme Zembla reported that Hirsi Ali had given false information about her name, her age, and her country of residence when originally applying for asylum. [46] In her asylum application, she had claimed to be fleeing a forced marriage, but the Zembla coverage featured interviews with her family, who denied that claim.[47] The program alleged that, contrary to Hirsi Ali’s claims of having fled a Somali war zone, the MP had been living comfortably in upper middle-class conditions safely in Kenya with her family for at least 12 years before she sought refugee status in the Netherlands in 1992. The documentary also gave extensive evidence that many of her stories of ill treatment were completely fabricated.”wikipedia
She made a career and a fortune out of islamophobia.she is a compulsive liar,confessed to lying,yet remains the star of the mainstream media!!!!her history of fraud in-depth:
Exposing Anti-Islam Author Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Latest Deception by Max Blumenthal
http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-islam-author-ayaan-hirsi-alis-latest-deception
She knew the short cut to success is smearing Islam and Muslims.who cares about her lies!!!about the facts!!!!keep spreading the lies.
by the way,Islamophobin is available for purchase at https://www.amazon.com/The-Council-American-Islamic-Relations-Islamophobin/dp/B01FXYYZ7G
It’s a multi symptoms relief for chronic islamophobia!!!!wishing you all the good health.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 6:18 am

As I suspected…

“The News Corp broadsheet highlighted offensive posts on Elomar’s Facebook account and raised questions about the extent to which Q&A vets its audience members.”

The hypocrisy is flabbergasting. Apparently Andrew Bolt is the only person allowed free speech in this country. Quoting News Corpse is a sure way to have thinking people disregard what you have to say. They won’t be happy until the ABC is privatised. I truly hate the power that Murdoch has in this country. Why on earth do people listen to his hateful crap? Wake up Australia and kick that bastard to the curb!
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 7:00 am

“The difference between the sunnia and shites is petty”

Maybe to you but that “petty difference” gets them killed.

“ISIL, attempting to create a Sunni Muslim caliphate, has labelled all Shia Muslims infidels. As a result, they have specifically targeted Shia communities. According to witnesses, after the militant group took the city of Mosul, they divided the Sunni prisoners from the Shia prisoners. Six hundred fifty Shia prisoners were then taken to another location and executed. Kurdish officials in Ibril have reported similar incidents where Sunni and Shia prisoners were separated and Shia prisoners were killed.”
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 7:26 am

Speaking of neutering the ABC…..

The ABC appears to be shoring up its Liberal credentials with the appointment of Josh Faulks, the deputy chief of staff to the attorney general, George Brandis. Faulks takes up the role of head of partnerships and policy at the broadcaster, working with head of TV, Richard Finlayson, to secure funding for content.

Finlayson says Faulks will “ensure that we have open and constructive relationships with our stakeholders and partners in the sector”. In other words, he will be a lobbyist.

The senior government staffer certainly has experience in handling budgets for the arts as he was a ministerial staffer when Brandis slashed the arts funding in the 2015 budget.

He also made news last year when Brandis insisted Faulks sit in on a meeting between the human rights commissioner, Gillian Triggs, and the shadow attorney general, Mark Dreyfus. Faulks turned up at the commission’s Sydney office and refused to leave when both Triggs and Dreyfus asked him to, saying he was acting on the instructions of the attorney general.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/22/top-liberal-aide-takes-senior-role-at-abc-to-ensure-constructive-relationships?CMP=soc_568
helvityniJuly 23, 2016 at 8:34 am

Kaey Lee’s articles are always sensible. I have to say I felt a bit sorry for her for having to battle with all those numerous anti-Muslim Hansonites, who seem to pop up here like mushrooms after the rain, when they see the name Pauline…

( at least in my old forest the mushrooms were all edible)….
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 8:49 am

helvityni,

All I want to do is to promote discussion and hopefully we all learn from it. I hate the misinformation that is spread around. People need truth to make informed decisions and sadly they don’t get it from our politicians or the poisonous Murdoch press. But thankfully we still have SBS. Here’s one to make you smile…..

“Cries have erupted around the community for all moderate Georges to denounce George Christensen after the controversial minister was forced to walk back a false claim that ‘radical Islam’ was responsible for an attack on a police station in Western Sydney.

While commentators have made it clear that the actions of George Christensen do not represent the thoughts and beliefs of all Georges the world over, some are still claiming it’s time for the community leaders amongst the Georges to step up and denounce the actions of this one radical George.

“We need to see the moderate Georges letting themselves known,” said one caller on talkback radio this morning. “It’s not all of them that are the problem. Just a few of the more radical Georges are giving the rest of them a bad name.

“Where are the community leaders like Prince George and George Clooney? Why aren’t they saying that this George doesn’t represent all of their views.”

http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2016/07/22/calls-moderate-georges-denounce-george-christensen

🙂
Kevin RJuly 23, 2016 at 8:54 am

helvityni Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit ??
FreethinkerJuly 23, 2016 at 9:01 am

I cannot understand why people blame a culture or religion followers just because few are committing crimes against humanity.
If we are going to categorize all the Muslim people as terrorist then what are we going to say about the Christians just because few of them committed horrendous crimes in South America under the policy of exterminating those ”contrary to western and Christian civilisation”.
IMHO those that act now in a negative manner against the Muslim people are creating divisions in our societies that it is exactly was the terrorists want.
The majority of the large brutal crimes in the history of humanity are because the hate of few and the ignorance of many.
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 9:10 am

What a lame comment Freethinker .I think you’d be better if you went for a walk and smell some flowers.Lay off the keyboard until you come up with something worthwhile to state.
diannaartJuly 23, 2016 at 9:11 am

Kaye Lee

You said it best with:

These people can make change because of the freedom and support they have been given in Australia. Do you want change or not?

You continue to be a source of reason within a blog that can be frustrating as well as fraught. So easy to be taken out of context, so easy for hatred to ricochet around these comments, where no one is safe from real or imagined insult. Meanwhile during our squabbles, Munich happened.

If Australia isolates itself, closes it borders – how long will that last? Are closed borders forever? History states clearly otherwise.

The biggest mistake we very fortunate people can make – whether on low income or own a portfolio of houses, we need to stop feigning outrage in order to score points and, instead, lead by example.

I am not so sure if many of can lead by example, we have done much that requires admission of responsibility; treatment of refugees, First nation people, single mothers – the stealing of babies from young women that occurred from the 50’s through to the 70’s back when being unwed was a very bad thing for women (I am not excluding difficulties single fathers face), just pointing out historical examples of Australia’s own shameful behaviour.

Is it our own shame that is preventing us from reaching to other people? Guilt can bring about disparate responses.
helvityniJuly 23, 2016 at 9:13 am

Kaye Lee, that’s a very creative idea “Georges against George”, I’ll pass it to my two dear friends with same name, one is an artist and the other one good with words. Join the forces and we’ll have good political cartoons for all to see.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 9:15 am

dianna,

We cannot change the past but we can learn from it and aim to do better. With the right leaders, this country CAN set an example of peaceful co-existence.
FreethinkerJuly 23, 2016 at 9:19 am

No Ox is not a lame comment, it is directed to many of the posters here that have made negative comments about Muslims and some comments about Christian values as an example to follow.
Perhaps lame comments are what it is needed to educate people?
I live it to you to digest in during your walk in the park.
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 9:34 am

Since John Howard came to power in 1996 The Conservatives have manipulated the Australia political argument. They have won. Labor lost under Gillard because of the boats issue. I’m a hardliner on this. I know this is tough.Australia has had zero infrastructure built in many years and we have been hoodwinked by Globalism. We need a tough socialist leader who cares about it’s inhabitants.The Housing Issue still remains a social crime.
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 9:40 am

Unfortunately young Muslin men are causing too much damage around the world due to their primitive belief systems.We need to talk about this.
townsvilleblogJuly 23, 2016 at 9:45 am

Australian fears won’t be helped by the overnight Islamic attack in Munich we don’t seem to get it. Australia now has in excess of 500,000 Muslim’s if they were all bad we would be in a civil war, we are not. Only a few of these people are doing these heinous acts, yet they are all getting the blame, we Aussies are better than this.
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 9:50 am

We use to be.Conservative Ideology has destroyed us.
townsvilleblogJuly 23, 2016 at 9:51 am

Ox if the L&NP/LNP govt would cut the loopholes out of the corporate tax act, our government would have enough revenue to fund public health& education properly as well as build public housing for the homeless. Last financial year our government missed out on $8 billion that should have come from corporate Australia for the good of the Australian people. Instead the L&NP/LNP are actually “giving” $48 billion of our hard earned taxation money to corporate Australia for a supposed 0.01% boost to the Australian economy? What’s it all about Alfie?
townsvilleblogJuly 23, 2016 at 9:58 am

Ox, I agree conservative ideology has destroyed us, in particulare the extremist right wing faction of the Liberal Party led by Abbott, who will take the leadership of the party and thus the Prime Ministership back from Turnbull before Christmas I believe. I am in the seat of Herbert, where the Labor candidate won by 8 votes on the first count. We are having a second count, but you wouldn’t want to know! It now seems that 85 soldiers whose home is Lavarack Barracks in Townsville were away on an exercise playing soldiers in South Australia and did not get a vote. The military are conservative voters so it seems as though the Labor candidate having won the Townsville people’s vote will be tossed out by 85 aj’s.
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 10:01 am

I know what it’s all about. American style Capitalism. Which we bought hook line and sinker in this country.

And do you know what? If you look back at it’s origins it’s all tide up with religion. America is a strange beast.
Michael TaylorJuly 23, 2016 at 10:04 am

According to news.com the shooter/s in Munich are thought to be right-wing extremists, not Islamic extremists.

And Freethinker’s comment made sense to me.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 10:09 am

It’s early days Michael but this was on CNN: “The man who appears to be a shooter said insulting things about Turks, did not espouse jihadist ideology and spoke with a German accent.”
wake up sheepleJuly 23, 2016 at 10:14 am

Michael ,you gave the racists the bad news.They wished they were Muslims to justify their twisted belief system!!!!!!!Racism is a ticking time bomb.
zueJuly 23, 2016 at 10:16 am

Christian values – I think these are largely informed by Aristotelian Ethics. Judea, birthplace of Christianity, was part of Alexander’s Greek empire before it was conquered by the Romans. Aristotle was Alexander’s tutor. In establishing the intellectual traditions of the early Christian Church, Augustine was influenced by Neoplatonism and more generally by the intellectual culture of the Roman empire (which had engulfed and incorporated Greek philosophy as well as other aspects of Greek culture). When the text of Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics was brought to Europe from the Islamic empire in the late Middle Ages, Thomas Aquinas dedicated his energies to reconciling the teachings of the early church to Aristotelian ethics. The result was Aquinas’s Organon, and that text is pivotal within Catholic intellectual traditions.

The central virtue in Aristotle’s ethics, as in Plato’s, is Justice – not the vengeful justice of the Hebrew God, but a more moderate, negotiated idea of justice. For Aristotle, justice is about having a sense of proportion, finding a mean between extremes.

I think a lot of the people who talk about ‘Christian values’ have little idea of what that actually means. I find Aristotle’s ethics compelling myself, but do not feel that it is necessary to be a Christian to be informed by these ideas. Islam is as much an inheritor of Greek ideas as Christianity is.
Michael TaylorJuly 23, 2016 at 10:17 am

That’s a pity, isn’t it Kaye? There are a few people here who would have preferred that he was a Muslim extremist.
Michael TaylorJuly 23, 2016 at 10:20 am

And ditto to sheeple.
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 10:21 am

I cannot understand why people blame a culture or religion followers just because few are committing crimes against humanity.

Because they can and do for untold reasons.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 10:29 am

I don’t want to be blamed for the drunken violence that comes from Australia’s pub culture. I don’t want to be identified with the bad sportsmanship shown by football fans.
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 10:32 am

To believe in a Religion outside of learning to or loving and understanding yourself,Is be part of the herd mentality.
markJuly 23, 2016 at 10:34 am

Mobius and Dan (and others) . No where did i say that the term christian values were exclusive to christians . I said the country was founded on christian values being the term used for them at the time. You asked for examples and i gave them. Many terms get altered over time. JH prefered to call them Australian values because they reflect a tolerant and peaceful society .
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 10:46 am

Kaye; it sounds like your not getting enough attention. And shouldn’t that be bad sportsperson-ship and not bad sportsmanship.

I for one won’t blame you for the drunken violence that comes from Australia’s pub culture: I hope this comforts you.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 10:52 am

Ox 🙂

“the country was founded on christian values ”

Ummm….are you referring to the Christian values of our Indigenous people? Or are you referring to the Christian values that decided to use the country as a great big jail – the Christian values that sent convicts to the other side of the world for such heinous crimes as stealing a loaf of bread? Or the Christian values of the settlers who slaughtered our First people?
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 10:59 am

I am an agnostic who has learned to love and understand myself.And educate myself; which off course still continues.

I am not sure what your referring to “the country was founded on christian values ”
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 11:11 am

Yes Dan if you were rooted up the arse by a priest as a child .You would be questioning Christian values ?
diannaartJuly 23, 2016 at 11:14 am

are you referring to the Christian values of our Indigenous people? Or are you referring to the Christian values that decided to use the country as a great big jail – the Christian values that sent convicts to the other side of the world for such heinous crimes as stealing a loaf of bread?

Exactly Kaye Lee.

The same “Christian Values” which entails locking up refugees in indefinite detention, abusing little children by clergy, polluting our environment, wasting our non-renewable resources, the same values which Donald Trump espouses by building walls, banning immigrant and claiming he (He?) is the only one who can save the USA?

So it bloody goes…
FreethinkerJuly 23, 2016 at 11:15 am

Dan, Argentinian Archbishop Adolfo Tortolo under the “Christian Values” justified the coup “as a process of purification” on the faith against those ”contrary to western and Christian civilisation”.
Many of the bishops supported him.
That not only happens in Argentina but in other 5 countries back then.
I, as a person that have to leave my country because those “Christians” (mainly catholic and evangelists) have no time for their values.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 11:48 am

“It is an unhappy time to be a Muslim in Australia. In parliament is a woman who likens Muslims to violent dogs and says we must take a “strong stance against Islam and its teachings and its beliefs”. She says: “We have laws here that we don’t bring in pit bull terriers because they’re a danger to our society … Pressure the government to say no more Muslims in Australia, no more Muslim refugees in Australia.”

On breakfast television is a presenter calling for a ban on Muslim immigration. She says: “I would like to see it stopped now for Australia because I want to feel safe, as all our citizens do, when they go out to celebrate Australia Day.”

Sonia Kruger was responding to a column by Andrew Bolt. For him, terrorism is maths. “Why have jihadist terrorists made France Europe’s bloodiest battlefield?” he wrote in the Murdoch press this week. “Simple answer: Because France let in the most Muslims… We are fools not to change our own immigration policies to protect ourselves.”

Bolt concedes later that Germany may have more Muslims than France, but they are from Turkey, which is “more Westernised and advanced” than the North Africa of France’s Muslims.

Bolt notes that there are half a million Muslims in Australia, and blames “Muslim refugees” for terrorist attacks in this country. “How we’ve paid for leaving our door open,” he writes.

The column finishes with an entreaty. “The mathematics is clear: The more Muslims we import, the more danger we are in,” Bolt writes. “Isn’t the next step now obvious? What will our prime minister and immigration minister do now to protect us?”

There is a sophistry to Bolt’s numbers and it is this: while France might have a large population of Muslims, it also has a deeply divided population. This is not about numbers, it is about lack of integration. It is about the ghettos in every major French city, about the unaddressed isolation of new migrants, about the mistrust that bans observances and mocks ethnicity. It is about the very segregation on which Bolt’s columns are built.

When on television and in parliament Muslims are demonised, we do not make Australia safer. When a people are considered terrorists because of their faith, we do not make Australia safer.

France has been the site of terrible atrocities, most recently in Nice. But nativism will not make it safe from these atrocities, just as it will not make Australia safe.

Nowhere are there experts calling for this approach. There are columnists who trade in fear, there are television hosts and xenophobic politicians, but no one who actually works in the fields of counterterrorism or deradicalisation.

We let run this fear because it is satisfying. It scratches the itch of insecurity. But it is not helpful. The more we divide society, the more we weaken it. Bolt and Kruger and Pauline Hanson mistake anxiety for solution. They would be better, always, to treat the anxiety.”

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/editorial/2016/07/23/wrong-division/14691960003519
markJuly 23, 2016 at 11:54 am

Or if you had your head sliced off or your friends blown up by non christian values . I will use the term weather you like it or not
TracieJuly 23, 2016 at 12:11 pm

mark,

*whether

Having been to a Muslim country, I can gladly say that I’m not a ghost, nor have I had my head chopped off. Your fears are incredibly unwarranted. Trust me. I know EXACTLY what I’m saying!

In fact, I have the nicest holiday pics from Pakistan. It really is a nice place. Your jealousy at the fact that I did seriously meet Imran Khan will be warranted, though. Tough luck to you – he’s a nice guy!
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 12:13 pm

mark,

How do you feel about the anti-abortion violence perpetrated by Christians?
OxJuly 23, 2016 at 12:16 pm

Kaye “It is an unhappy time to be a Muslim in Australia. This piece doesn’t ad much to the argument Yes i’m sure it is i’m sure it is tough time. We stuffed up the integration/assimilation. I think from now on we shouldn’t utter Bolt’s name from now on or give him a nickname we can all use like.How about we all call Bolt Schultz as we know he NO’s NOTHING.
wake up sheepleJuly 23, 2016 at 12:41 pm

A documentary film, The Newburgh Sting, premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival in April of last year. The film set out to expose how the FBI entraps and coaxes otherwise peaceful people into participating in hoax crimes.
In the film, former FBI assistant director Thomas Fuentes defends the tactics used by the FBI to set up poverty-stricken men and offering them large sums of money to commit crimes.
After he had defended the FBI’s role in bribing poor people to get them to commit crimes, he let out a bombshell statement, confirming what many of us already know. In the film, Fuentes stated:
“If you’re submitting budget proposals for a law enforcement agency, for an intelligence agency, you’re not going to submit the proposal that ‘We won the war on terror and everything’s great,’ cause the first thing that’s gonna happen is your budget’s gonna be cut in half,” states Fuentes. “You know, it’s my opposite of Jesse Jackson’s ‘Keep Hope Alive’—it’s ‘Keep Fear Alive.’ Keep it alive.”

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/keep-fear-alive/#tls4UYD3piFfV2Ku.99

It seems ,they have shortage of terrorists!!!!!
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 1:02 pm

Senator Derryn Hinch voted for the first time this election because he “finally found someone worth voting for”. He has been to jail twice and home detention once. He was born in New Zealand. Perhaps we should get Peter Dutton onto it.
cornlegendJuly 23, 2016 at 1:22 pm

Geez, it’s gonna be a long 3-6 years if Hanson and her rag tag 3, 4 or 5 or whatever she ends up with sets the political agenda and discussion as she now seems to have done, non stop since July 3rd.
Lets face it, she will get bugger all through the Senate and will just be wasted space.
The only danger is what she and the cross benchers support Fizza/Abbott/Morrison/Bishop/Dutton or who ever leads them, on.
As of now, I’m a Hanson free zone
cornlegendJuly 23, 2016 at 1:29 pm

Tanya Plibersek the new shadow Minister for Education . the poor old LNPs Simon Birmingham will be off to Fizza seeking a new Portfolio. Tanya will eat him alive
FreethinkerJuly 23, 2016 at 1:38 pm

Bighead1883 not even think in question the Judaean religion practices, you will hit with a ton of verbal abuses and accused of……..you know what.
cornlegendJuly 23, 2016 at 1:42 pm

Bighead1883
I know your question was a serious one but
couldn’t help myself 😀
“His pants were so tight you could tell his religion.”

The rabbi took no fees. He just worked for tips

Why do Jewish women like circumcised men?
They can’t resist something with 15 percent off.

Why couldn’t they circumcise Abbott?
Because there’s no end to the prick.
cornlegendJuly 23, 2016 at 1:47 pm

Shorten on Turnbull: “He’s got the biggest cabinet since Whitlam and the smallest agenda since McMahon.”
FreethinkerJuly 23, 2016 at 1:51 pm

Bighead1883 asked: My question is: What medical reason is there for a male infants to be circumcised?
Well, in medial sites in the net are saying:

Inability to retract the foreskin fully at birth is not a medical reason for a circumcision.
Circumcision prevents phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin at an age when it should normally be retractable), paraphimosis (the painful inability to return the foreskin to its original location), and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Circumcision increases the chance of meatitis (inflammation of the opening of the penis).
Circumcision may result in a decreased incidence of urinary tract infections.
Circumcision may result in a lower incidence of sexually transmitted diseases and may reduce HIV transmission.
Circumcision may lower the risk for cancer of the cervix in sexual partners.
Circumcision may decrease the risk for cancer of the penis.

Religion?
Perhaps bu before Abraham it appears that was practiced in Africa
Historians are saying, quote: began as a way of “purifying” individuals and society by reducing sexuality and sexual pleasure. Human sexuality was seen as dirty or impure in some societies; hence cutting off the pleasure-producing parts was the obvious way to “purify” someone.

Source: http://www.cirp.org/library/history/
randalstellaJuly 23, 2016 at 2:58 pm

I’ll forfeit my right to vote, in exchange for a national radio network.
I’ll devote it to sports and talkback.
Michael TaylorJuly 23, 2016 at 3:11 pm

Everybody has a right to vote, but it’s those voters who’ll vote for whoever Murdoch ‘tells’ them to who concern me. Somehow I don’t think they’re always voting in their best interests. Murdoch’s perhaps, but not their’s.
jimhazJuly 23, 2016 at 3:29 pm

[When I was growing up, the maps, with red arrows from the North, had the majority shaking in their shoes. Now we have the Muslim threat with people who have no understanding of Islam (and no evidence they have read anything ‘academic’ about same) again shaking in their shoes]

To me this sort of attitude is not as realistic as you think.

Life will expand until it is prevented from doing so. Ideological trends such as political beliefs and religions seem to be the same – they do have lifetimes.

Boundaries are necessary. The west had to expend resources, including lives, to prevent dictatorial communism spreading further.

The growth of Wahhabism directly threatens Australia.

“Over the last few decades, Saudi Arabia has spent more than US$100 billion exporting Wahhabism to all corners of the globe. Thousands of mosques, seminaries, universities, schools and community centres have been built, while thousands of preachers, teachers and activists have been educated, trained and dispatched across the world along with Wahhabi-approved textbooks and other literature”

http://www.iman-worldwide.org/newsroom/our-news/ambassador-dennis-ignatius-the-wahhabi-threat-to-southeast-asia

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

Islam is in an expansionary phase and boundaries must be placed on it as well, until such time as it becomes non-expansionary or changes to be more synergistic with the dominant power streams.

The clash of civilisations started some time ago as technology made the world much smaller and interconnected. That the west will place barriers on Islamic expansion at some point has never been an optional or avoidable matter – it is now an act of necessity due to incursions into western territory and the threats of Wahhabism.

I find it pointless to apply moral blame to international events that have already occurred. It is not relevant as the causal conditions are always different in the present and our knowledge of all the pluses and minuses are far too incomplete. Justice is relevant but it is a subjective matter. Catalysts for conflict or polarisation like the creation of Israel was seen as right at the time and I think we just have to accept it.

The western world will accept or tolerate the Islamic religion on its own turf – but not the Wahhabism variety. Australian muslims have a greater threat from it taking hold in Indonesia than from Pauline Hanson’s activities (and the link above had a few peaceful strategies in that regard). The mistakes made by both sides in the overall clash will determine the level of harm. Harm will be minimised only if progressive leadership arises in Islamic countries, particularly in Saudi Arabia it would seem.

Now that Al Qaida/ISIL ideology exists it must be destroyed or caused to dissolve from within by the application of barriers that prevent its expansion. The latter could easily cost 500,000 ISIL governed lives as I’d expect many would starve or lack medical care, as opposed to ???? by destroying its control using force and very high civilian casualties. Both actions will spread more intense anti-west hatred.

I just don’t see how any one here is able to make an objective decision on the strategies that would cost the least amount of lives, while keeping Australia strategically safe.

Rights and wrongs in this arena are primarily strategic decisions not moral ones. Moral considerations just determine the nature of the barriers used. Public morality concerns limit the range of options, and this limitation can both cost or save lives depending on the circumstances.

The problem we have with Islam isn’t at heart a religious one. It is really just a representation of the lack of maturity in too many members of our species. On both sides we collectively allow the wrong sort of people to govern (including religious governance) – namely pretty much anyone who actively seeks or seeks to hold personal power. They always lead us astray with their own egotistical desires. We will keep harming each other until we stop doing that. I see no possibility of this changing.

The difference between me and you is that you think one side, our side, can just stop actions that negatively affect the other and things will just work out alright via diplomatic or compromise arrangements. To me the desires of power and greed are too intrinsic. Even the act of expressing an opinion on a forum such as this is an exercise in power seeking – you want more people to have your ideology. Religion has this is spades – conversion is the success of ideological power in action, and this feeds desires for expansion. Creating a public atmosphere where expressed intolerance to the intolerences within religions, is not tolerated, is also a strategic win for expansionary Islam as it allows power to be exercised more freely and widely. The Gandhi approach though an ideal strategy only works in some circumstances.

Evil bastards will continue to rise to power as they are the ones most prepared to use deceit, treachery and violence to get there. It is not a world highly empathy people like to compete in.

Education of them or us, though seemingly the only ultimate ideological diffuser, has its limitations. Only a minority of the population has the scholarly mindset required to pierce through the layers of factual noise and deception and weigh the validity of “facts”. Only a minority of the population can recall facts well enough to form a “right context” viewpoint – in people like me for instance this makes scholarly examination a bit pointless. Only a minority can afford the time to be fully educated. Only a minority will put unknown others before themselves. Only a minority will be prepared to step outside the expected norms of their social cohort etc etc.

Of course the West, or more accurately technology based culture systems, will have its own expansionary boundary in the limitation of earths systems to cope.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 4:05 pm

You assume that Australian Muslims are without choice – that they will be overtaken by extremists.

Wahhabi Muslims insist in every aspect of life on strict adherence to Sharia. That would make life very difficult here. I remember when the grand poobah of the KKK came to Australia. He was laughed out of the country (though I do wonder if people would be as discerning nowdays).

The absolutely best defence against extremism is a united community. As I keep saying, we should be proud of our peaceful co-existence and resist those who seek to divide us. Australia is a great example that it can work except some of you seem determined to stir up trouble – you have this irrational fear because you, for some reason, are determined to recount bad things that happen elsewhere.

As any person with a modicum of understanding could tell you, unjust marginalisation, exclusion, and vilification can only breed discontent. You are causing harm.

Muslims who are free from oppression and intolerance are free to choose a better way and also free to work for reform and against extremism.
diannaartJuly 23, 2016 at 4:58 pm

Nick Earls: I was passing through airport security somewhere in North America in October 2001 when I realised it: I was no longer the face of terrorism, and might never be selected for one of those comprehensive “special clearance procedures” again.

Until then, that’s what a passport with a Northern Irish birthplace had got me – it happened often enough anywhere in the world, and was almost inevitable at airports in the UK. I’d be taken away to a side room, physically searched, swabbed for explosives and asked to unpack my suitcase entirely. Sometimes I even had to unball my balled-up socks. I’d adjusted to it being the price of travel for someone with a birthplace like mine.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/22/australia-once-banned-catholics-from-mass-and-vilified-the-irish-havent-we-learned-anything

These days a person only has to appear a little bit Middle Eastern, no passport required.
guestJuly 23, 2016 at 5:21 pm

Thank you, Freethinker,

it is amazing what a difference it makes when we know more of the truth. I remember being being told that uncircumcised soldiers in the tropics suffered problems with health issues. No doubt there would be cultural reasons for female genital mutilation. Or wearing a burqa.Then we have stories of medieval chastity belts.

Some people have expressed horror at the idea of beheadings. But of course Christians are good at that, too. And burnings at the stake, naked. Hangings are usually successful. And drawing and quartering.. Electrocution is more technologically advanced. While poisoning by injection has lost favour somewhat after failed attempts. But the Russians seem to have developed radioactive methods. A torture expert has to have a PhD in torture to be competent. Much cleaner is a quick missile delivered by a drone in the Middle East by an operator in California. Luckily ISIS does not seem to be so very well equipped. Americans shoot each other with assault weapons available at the local gun shop. I have heard that poisoning of wells has been successful, but limits the use of the wells.

Once upon a time we would have been afraid of that tribe over the hill coming with their new-fangled spears. Now we point to people coming on boats or flying in by plane. Or those home-grown jihadists.

Of course it is not a laughing matter, but I sometimes think we bring retribution upon ourselves. I remember around the time of the Iraq War a cartoon of a massive bomb falling on Baghdad with the word “Democracy” written on the side. We know how that turned out.

So when things go wrong the solution is to blame someone else. But somehow it just causes more trouble. Not only do we have people over there we hate, but there are those who hate us for hating those ‘others’. What to do?

Poor Pauline, when she found she was sitting next to a Muslim on Q&A! Will she get to eat with a Muslim family – or will she politely decline the invitation? Stay tuned for the next enthralling episode…
cornlegendJuly 23, 2016 at 5:43 pm

Bill Shorten ‏@billshortenmp Jul 21

I’ve written to PM requesting Govt & Opposition put in a joint FWC submission arguing against cuts to penalty rates.
jimhazJuly 23, 2016 at 6:43 pm

[You assume that Australian Muslims are without choice – that they will be overtaken by extremists]

Not really. But if terrorism that kills Australians starts occurring in a repeat fashion or aggressive religion inspired protests against Australia ocurr from Indonesia, then polarisation on both sides within Australia would increase and conflict events could occur.

I’m not of follower of international news, but no news events come to mind to suggest any significant danger for quite some time. It is more just something we need to be aware of should things change. What actually came to my mind when writing the sentences was – maybe the cuts to Indo education aid should have not been cut?

anyway, I don’t want to post more this weekend. The subject weighs me down a bit. I’m only ever really speculating. In the light of history, I would rather to be found wrong on this topic (and on many of my other contrarian views to this forum for that matter). Were the right things to happen further escalation would be avoidable, and that could mean the clash issue would gradually fizzle out and the barriers brought down.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 7:05 pm

IF those things happen then we will deal with them. Living in fear about something that hasn’t happened makes no sense. In the mean time we work on prevention by being good to each other.
Kaye LeeJuly 23, 2016 at 7:29 pm

jimhaz,

I should add that, whilst I don’t always agree with you, you voice your concerns in a thoughtful way. You also listen to what others have to say. I respect you for that and I truly believe that if we all keep talking and listening we can all work together towards understanding each other and working out how to all live together successfully.
jimhazJuly 24, 2016 at 10:01 am

Thanks Kaye. I think you are a champion. So many positive qualities. The phrase “The Teacher Archetype” came to mind so I googled it:

“Teacher as the Icarus Archetype:
Like Icarus, a teacher’s “wax wings will melt in the unforgiving daily sun of classroom reality” if they lack the humility to recognize themselves as “co-learners” involved in the process of learning with their students.”

Seems apt to me.

I have a lot of issues in my life that don’t foster much in the way of a “generosity of spirit” and frustrations that can make me obnoxious.

I’m more aligned to fairness than equality. Equality is too big a can of worms for me.
Kaye LeeJuly 24, 2016 at 10:17 am

That comment made me cry. Thank you.
TurnthetideJuly 25, 2016 at 12:39 pm

Well it looks like it has happened again. And it will keep on happening!
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 1:00 pm

What has “happenned again” Turnthetide? Please explain.

If you are talking about the Munich shootings,a spokesman for the Munich prosecutors’ office told the news conference that the gunman had spent two months as an inpatient at a mental care facility in 2015 and was afterwards treated as an outpatient.

“The suspect had fears of contact with others” and also depression, Thomas Steinkraus-Koch said.

However, there was no evidence of any political motivation.
TurnthetideJuly 25, 2016 at 1:07 pm

Another bombing in Germany. Bomber killed, 11 injured, 2000 evacuated. Just one idiot after another and it’s not going to stop!
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 1:12 pm

And what is the common factor here….

Hermann said it is unclear if the suspect intended to kill others or just himself but said he had “tried to commit suicide” twice before and had previously been in psychiatric care in the district hospital in Ansbach.

The other common factor is that is didn’t happen in Australia….as I keep trying to point out to you.
TurnthetideJuly 25, 2016 at 1:21 pm

You know what Kaye Lee, You decide for yourself. If it was and it looks like it was I’m sure you will find some justification, excuse and reasoning why it will never happen here and why we should keep taking these people in. I don’t feel, no matter what is said that you could or would change your opinion about these people. I guess, for you and few other people on the website, it will really take a disaster here to occur. No, not even that would change your mind! You really do have your head in the sand and I guess from my perspective it will stay there. Have a nice day. I’m done.
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 1:26 pm

I have never said there will be no crimes committed here. What I have asked is that you have some perspective and consider what preventative action can be taken. We have a cohesive society here. Stop trying to stuff that up. What I take from recent events is that we need better mental health initiatives and support.
diannaartJuly 25, 2016 at 1:35 pm

Indeed, Kaye Lee.

If we, as humans took better care of each other, particularly those who are ill, isolated or dispossessed, we’d have less mass killings. We cannot expect a perfect world, but we really can do a lot better than we are right now. Sending blame around and creating unnecessary fears does not help at all, in fact, such behaviour can be the catalyst for further homicides – whether it be in the name of some god or simply revenge for feeling inadequate.

The more we alienate people we consider too different or whatever excuse for ostracisation, the more reasons are given to justify a murderous event in a someone’s mind.
TracieJuly 25, 2016 at 1:38 pm

I have sent an email to George Christensen about taking people off Centrelink benefits after 6 months. His office asked for my address. This is the response I gave him:

Thank you for replying, even though you are dealing with quite a lot of correspondence at present.

Before I give you my address, I would like to say that I am absolutely terrified over what is going on, in relation to jobseeker payments. I am more terrified of this than any kind of terrorist activity that may or may not happen by extremists in this country. I am terrified that I won’t be able to make payments for the health care that I obviously need. I am terrified that I will never get another opportunity to work again.

I live in fear every day of my life. Not the fear of terrorists. Rather, I live in fear that I will once again have to deal with Xxxx Xxxxxx. On 30 December 2012, I saw him again in Dundas, Sydney. He came up to me in public, and asked me if I remember him. I actually hadn’t, so he took it upon himself to jog my memory. Being in public, he was unable to try anything of what he used to do. I was able to walk away.

The fact that he had come up to me means that he will be more intent to try again, within the boundaries that his older brothers Xxxx Xxxxxx and Xxxx Xxxxxx set him. He will not forget me, nor will he forget that he considers that we will be ‘together forever’.

I also live in fear that after 6 months, my benefits will be cut off.

These are the pressing issues for me – not terrorist activities that happen in other countries. Those activities are a world away. My domestic violence suffering is happening to me, right now. I don’t care about those other issues. I personally care about the fact that I am still living every day with what happened to me, while he is free. I was told that I wouldn’t be believed, so couldn’t even go to the police or the courts.

This is my prison, and there is no freedom for me from this. I don’t care about Muslim activities in Australia. They have never harmed me. My ex partners have.

This is the link that I am most concerned about: https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/32135850/six-months-and-youre-out-mp-proposes-dramatic-new-dole-newstart-centrelink-plan/#page1

This is Australia wide – it’s not just for the Dawson electorate. This is why I have brought my story, and my concerns, to him.
diannaartJuly 25, 2016 at 1:44 pm

Wonderful letter Tracie.

My situation is not so dissimilar – although I am not living in the same level of fear as I used to be. But I cannot forget and hearing of so-called reforms to welfare always brings on insecurity.

These cheap opportunistic politicians are not there for the good of all, just doing whatever they feel they need to do to get re-elected.
TurnthetideJuly 25, 2016 at 2:01 pm

Your story Tracie is very sad indeed and is so common in Australia today. Why is the Government allowing you to live in such fear, probably for the rest of your life, as well as in fear of receiving any benefits that you are undoubtedly are entitled to taken from you after six months when these refugees come to this country, the government supplying 500 millions to teach them to become Australians and care so little for the Australian people already here and who should be our first priority. This amount doesn’t include all the benefits they get individually as well. Will someone please explain to me and to Tracie who is the more important person here? This is the reason why so much money is taken from the people who need it the most in Welfare Payments and the elderly, the sick, domestic violence, hospitals etc? All this taxpayers money going to relocate these people who are then bleeding off our Welfare system here and no penalties are placed on these refugees to fend for themselves. If your story doesn’t make people wake up and see exactly what is going on here then it’s a very sad day for all Australians and we should all be ashamed! There is something dreadfully wrong in this country today! Politicians in this country today are not working for everyday Australians, they all think they are on the world’s stage and the only thing they really seem to care about is how they look in the eyes of the world and how much attention we are paying to taking stinking refugees in! There is not enough money for both, NOT ENOUGH!
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 2:02 pm

Domestic violence and suicide are far greater problems in this country than terrorism. We spend hundreds of billions on defence and national security while we neglect the real killers in this country.
jimhazJuly 25, 2016 at 2:02 pm

[I have sent an email to George Christensen about taking people off Centrelink benefits after 6 months]

Hope you lied about both – to make their undemocratic Parakeelia software less useful. Use your own name and you’ll be marked for “Limited or No Attention” the next time around.
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 2:09 pm

Although there may be immediate costs as refugees are resettled and adjusted to their new environments, when given the required support and opportunities refugees can, and do, make significant social, cultural, and economic contributions to their host countries.

While almost two-thirds of migrant taxpayers were migrants with a Skilled visa – reporting $26 billion in Employee income – Humanitarian migrants displayed greater entrepreneurial qualities and reported a higher proportion of income from their own unincorporated businesses and this income increased sharply after five years of residency.

Interestingly, second generation humanitarian entrants have been found to have higher rates of labour market participation than the first generation, and in many cases higher than for second generation Australians.

http://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/research/economic-social-civic-contributions-about-the-research2011.pdf#search=Hugo
TracieJuly 25, 2016 at 2:12 pm

@Turnthetide I WANT asylum seekers to come here. They don’t adversely affect me. Others have affected me infinitely more than asylum seekers. I want them to feel welcome here. I want to share the land with them, because all they want is the safety that I want to feel, myself. Because this is all about humanity. You don’t feel safe because you assume someone is going to come here and hurt you. I’m sorry to tell you this, but that has already happened to me, by people born and living here in Australia. It’s not called ‘domestic violence’ for nothing!

@jimhaz my first email to them was about the fact that I was nearly murdered. I gave them all the gory details. They actually couldn’t ignore it. They won’t be able to, either, because I told them how little support I received after nearly being murdered.

Even though DV is so prevalent, at times I have felt lucky that I did survive nearly being murdered. Other times, I had wished that I was one of the statistics. Recovery can be a real bitch at times.
diannaartJuly 25, 2016 at 2:15 pm

@TnT

“Fearmongering”: Fear mongering or scaremongering is the deliberate use of fear based tactics including exaggeration and usually repetition to influence the public in order to achieve a desired outcome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_mongering

Includes blaming others and calling them names liking “stinking”.
TracieJuly 25, 2016 at 2:19 pm

Also, I researched where the money was going – into giving tax breaks and loopholes for multicorporate entities and tax havens for the rich. We are being milked dry by our politicians and their mates. It has nothing to do with refugees, or any of the people living here.

I blame the wealthy, for not pulling their weight. I will never blame refugees, or Indigenous or any other group that have also been adversely affected.
TurnthetideJuly 25, 2016 at 2:20 pm

I’m sorry Tracie but that is where your money is going to. I’m sorry if you don’t see that. Do you see the government taking money off the rich to take care of migrants? No, they keep ripping it off the people that need it the most. Ones like yourself! This is not about safety of these people, it’s about what Australia can afford and we cannot afford BOTH! To Kaye Lee, give it up. The only thing you care about is the bloody refugees. To hell with the rest of this country! Don’t bother replying! Why don’t you become a bloody politician yourself, because your are certainly in your element there! You would fit right in with the ones running this country today!
TracieJuly 25, 2016 at 2:23 pm

Turnthetide, you have no idea how much you are traumatising me. Sorry, but if you can’t see another perspective that is actually quite hurtful, you aren’t helping anyone in a similar situation to me. You are actually only really helping yourself, and your fears.
WinstonJuly 25, 2016 at 2:23 pm

Kaye I agree
Domestic violence and suicide are far greater problems in this country than terrorism. We spend hundreds of billions on defence and national security while we neglect the real killers in this country.

Australians have been collectively indifferent to personal struggle. Even my own family chose not notice that was being bullied at school. In their defense I hid it; though the constant black eyes were a dead give away. Whether its child abuse in the church or when your going through a rough time. Your so called friends disappear.The now the well off working class forget their roots. And don’t give a shit.
Australians should have gotten of their arse and protester-ed at potentiall Turnball government.

The old catch cry seems relevant; If you don’t fight you loose:

PS It seems fear runs very close to most human beings. Though for me whenever I disscuss it people run.
jimhazJuly 25, 2016 at 2:29 pm

@Tracie

Sorry, I didn’t read your post fully. I only the read the first paragraph and thought you were making a political complaint.
diannaartJuly 25, 2016 at 2:31 pm

I intended; like “stinking”
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 2:31 pm

Bullying of any description is a tragedy that causes so much grief in this country – that includes bullying of migrants and bullying of gays and partners and children. These people say they are trying to keep Australia safe, not understanding the hurt they are causing through their insensitivity.

Winston, Tracie, dianna, maybe jimhaz too…I am so sorry for what you have endured. We all need support and I hope enough Australians can band together to counter the hatred and fear that some would like to promote and start working on how we really help people.

Turnthetide,

You have been given a platform on which to air your point of view. Since I wrote the article I will maintain my right of reply. You can’t bully ME into giving up sunshine! Our government intends spending $400 billion on weapons of war over the next twenty years. And you want to blame refugees???
WinstonJuly 25, 2016 at 2:49 pm

Nothing will ever change Kaye. I now know how to defend myself.Then there’s socially bullying which in my experience women seem rather adept at. And some men.In life we have to fight for fair; even if we loose.
TurnthetideJuly 25, 2016 at 2:57 pm

I don’t mean to traumatise anyone especially you. This country is in one real mess and the only common factor here in my book is refugees. I truly hope all goes well for you and with Centrelink. The only thing that will make people wake up is a real tragedy here in this country. I hope it never happens but I know it will at some time. No more comments from me on this issue. Have a safe life!
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 2:58 pm

Winston,

Things have changed and will continue to do so. The best defence is having the support of others. There should not be a victim comparison game. All of us have to get kinder and work together to continue to improve our society for all.
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 3:00 pm

“This country is in one real mess and the only common factor here in my book is refugees.”

Scapegoating is the practice of singling out any party for unmerited negative treatment or blame.

“I hope it never happens”

Sure doesn’t seem that way to me because you are doing everything in your power to sow the seeds of discontent that could make it happen.

This is a great country. It is a real shame that you don’t appreciate it.
Matters NotJuly 25, 2016 at 3:09 pm

Yep this country is in a mess. Just read the links provided by Turnthetide. Support for this nonsense – not provided. Shakes head.

Read this and see how ‘terrible’ and ‘threatening’ these refugees are.

https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-have-any-refugees-who-came-to-australia-gone-on-to-be-terrorists-51192

Don’t suppose anyone has costed the value of the ‘education’ brought by at least some.
WinstonJuly 25, 2016 at 3:10 pm

Sorry Kaye and I don’t mean to be whoa is me. In my life I have had more help from strangers than from so any called friends or colleagues. Ignorance and indifference has always seemed the way here. In the end it’s always up to you.
TracieJuly 25, 2016 at 3:11 pm

The tragedy is already happening. It’s just a real shame you can’t see it, due to your own privilege. Domestic violence KILLS more than one woman a week now. Can’t that be tragedy enough?

Why are you so looking forward to some ‘terrorist attack’ similar to what’s been going on in Europe, when the terrorist attacks are already happening, but with partners or ex partners?

Muslims aren’t a problem here. Refugees aren’t a problem here. Your discontent of them is.

Domestic violence is a far greater threat than refugees could ever be.

For you to thrive on fear is beyond me.
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 3:26 pm

No need to apologise Winston….and it should never be up to just you. We all need help at times. Thankfully I have a very supportive family and group of friends who have helped me cope with hard times and get through. That has allowed me to offer similar support to strangers at times and it feels good to help people. Perhaps Turnthetide should try it some time.
jimhazJuly 25, 2016 at 3:30 pm

@turnthetide

I do not like it either, as I have disgust for non-open and moderate religions and the aggressive young macho middle eastern muslims (or non-muslims affected by middle eastern problems) but there is a possible long term upside. There are nearly always positives amongst the negatives.

Unless we or muslim leadership purposefully keep 2 billion people poor, the more muslims that become westernised by actually living in western countries the more opportunity they and we will end up giving to those countries that are backward, to also progress faster than otherwise. The benefits of technology will eventually be the factor that destroys the dangerous side of the religion.

If we keep separate, it will not be a case of “familiarity breeding contempt” but of a long term war, as opposed to comparatively minor losses from terrorism. It is far easier to hate those who one knows nothing about – like who amongst us really cares about the local terrorist bombings in middle eastern countries? Contempt allows for compromise – hate leads to violence.

I’d say some of the recent lone wolf activity was based on contempt for the west, but hatred for the world. Not much different to the US school shootings – just spurned on more by muslim terrorist activity.

It is a tiny bit like global warming responsibilities – though we might divide the world into parts everything is interconnected and we have to pay the cost as well. In the global warming domain the LNP is trying to make others pay this cost, not Australia – but their destruction of the renewables industry, will cost us more later on.

The compromise of letting some muslims in as we do now isn’t so bad. The conservatives will never allow us to be swamped. Of the 500k muslims here now, many have been here a long time and/or are/were from not very dangerous muslim countries like Turkey, Indonesian, Bangladesh etc. Both the conservatives (business) and the progressives (bleeding hearts) will force high migration of people from poorer countries for different reasons so we don’t seem to be in a position to avoid the decline of the Australia I grew up in, and in my view made us into a “not-as-smart as we might have been” country. (I don’t care how superior, thus racist, that last comment might seem – it relates to over-immigration, not immigration as such).
Matters NotJuly 25, 2016 at 3:35 pm

As an aside, today is the last day (Monday 25 July) for submissions to the higher education consultation. Be an active citizen! Education is our future. Let’s ensure it’s available to the greatest possible number.
FreethinkerJuly 25, 2016 at 4:40 pm

Looks like that Pauline and George have another supporter on Muslim immigration.
Senator Eric Abetz has applauded an article written by one of his staff calling for an “open-border approach to Muslim migration” to be reconsidered.
On Saturday the Spectator Australia published an article by the ACT Young Liberal president and media officer to Abetz, Josh Manuatu, with the headline Kruger is right – Muslim immigration should be carefully considered.

Kruger is right – Muslim immigration should be carefully considered
http://spectator.com.au/2016/07/kruger-is-right-muslim-immigration-should-be-carefully-considered/
diannaartJuly 25, 2016 at 5:18 pm

@Freethinker

I have just heard the same news.

Bizzaro world just became a little darker.

I guess Muslims living here will be forced to wear a star & crescent moon on their backs.
jimhazJuly 25, 2016 at 5:19 pm

Re: Josh Manuatu A proportion of young gay men must like the Nazi type (Brandis and Abetz). Must be all that BDSM junk I’ve seen some wear (or used to when I worked near Oxford St, Sydney).
Kaye LeeJuly 25, 2016 at 6:31 pm

A staffer from Senator Eric Abetz’s office has used his personal Facebook page to publicly humiliate a gay teenager over the Safe Schools program.

Josh Manuatu, himself openly gay, also used an image of the minor beside a message which originally had been sent to him in a private forum.

Is there a pattern here?