Build it and they will come to buy it back again

Originally posted on Political Jelly:

Build it and they will come to buy it back again.

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There is much huff and puff about the construction of the NBN in Australia. Like most things “Hi-tech” explanations of its benefits are complicated and convoluted. Technologists like myself project a fifties impression of the space-age “Buck Rodgers” futuristic world we envisaged 2013 would be. Technology may have moved on since the fifties but some people cannot. I can feel your eyes glaze over as you read this on your smartphone or tablet, which was the stuff of a fertile imagination just 10 years ago.

The politicisation of technology, like education and medicine, stifles visionary benefits. Get a great idea, share it with a politician and when they eventually understand the vision after assessing the political capital, they will promptly legislate it into oblivion. The hallmark of politicising  great ideas is the term “Cost Benefit Analysis”. Rest assured that…

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95 replies

  1. Here you are: a place to talk about the NBN.

  2. Well, I’ll continue again here…

    When NBN put the cost estimations together they based it on the rate for similar work contractors were preforming for Telstra.

    Telstra uses a very diffused/disorganised range of contractors and subcontractors.

    The reality-

    • An ALP government/NBN facilities a higher level of union coverage, and that’s fine. But unions seek higher wages and shorter hours than applies to the rag tag bunch of contractors used by Telstra.

    • More unions mean more carefully demarked work, which is usually less efficient.

    • The previous Telstra subcontractors just got in and did the work. NBN can’t have the same culture, government infrastructure projects need more regulation, particularly around safety. The government has learnt that from ceiling insulation stimulus. So there are more structured (public and worker) safety systems – enclosed spaces, isolation, traffic management. That’s all appropriate too, but it adds cost to the work that wasn’t part of the Telstra cost structure.

    …and they’re a few of the reasons that NBN costs will have cost overruns.

  3. An ALP government/NBN facilities a higher level of union coverage

    ah, you might like to ask that of the NBN directly. not sure whether that would be the case. Most of the work is done by contractors?

  4. Does that mean I can keep bugging yomm to answer curly questions he appears to want to avoid from when he derailed the other thread?

    Such as does he still stand behind his $2,000/person number, or his 15% claim?

    Rather than answer these, it appears he wants to mislead over different things, like unions (BOO)

  5. Such as does he still stand behind his $2,000/person number, or his 15% claim?

    I’ve already answered both, so get over it.

  6. But unions seek higher wages and shorter hours than applies to the rag tag bunch of contractors used by Telstra.

    The sad thing is, you say that like it is a bad thing.

    More unions mean more carefully demarked work, which is usually less efficient.

    I would argue that a safer and happier work force actually is more productive than the ‘rag tag” one

  7. Thanks Migs I think :roll:
    Further to the Murdoch theme really interesting articles have poped up @ over at technology speculator., like let the army build it, and Turnbull is the only hope of course it is a 100% owned sub of News ltd.

  8. I’ve already answered both, so get over it.

    No you didn’t. You said you heard the number of 15% somewhere, but didn’t provide it. If you claim saying over and over ‘ours costs more’ is simehow addressing your claim about 2,000/person, think again.

    You launched an attack on people for calling you out on your claims. But so far, you haven’t been able to back one up, and have only grudgingly admitted to one of them (the 5X claim), although, you never really admitted anything, just started using a different number.

  9. Hey Tom Mexican…sorry confusing … I dare say that’s a good reason Korea got it cheap, third world wages and conditions. What are you proposing an economic exclusion zone 20 feet either side of the backhoe? :-)

  10. I dare say that’s a good reason Korea got it cheap

    The main reason Korea got there’s ‘cheap’ Ricky was because all of their infrastructure was already there. The didn’t have to lay fibre anywhere, just plug some connections at the premises

  11. hey ricky, not doing moderation over at your site?

  12. …and they’re a few of the reasons that NBN costs will have cost overruns.

    Mr negativity again. Do you have proof that will happen.

  13. Fine…

    5 times the cost…

    21 times the level of public funds as USA per household
    • Almost 6 times as much as South Korea
    • 74 times as much as Brazil
    • 61 times as much as the UK
    • 3.5 times NZ
    • 128 times as much as Japan
    • 71 times Italy
    • 6 times Malaysia
    • Almost 5 times Singapore
    • 23 times Sweden
    • …but only 1.5 times Qatar!
    ——————
    almost $2000 per head…

    Original cost estimate = $36bn/20mill = $1800 per head

    Currently $30.4bn/20mill = $1520/head

    What’s the definition of “almost”?
    ——————–
    15% – estimated by contractor(s) for NBN as part of the rollout (no link)
    ——————–
    Get over it.

  14. aaaaarrrrrrggghhhh. It is NOT public funds.

  15. not apples for apples. geeeees, get over it mate. your points are like f..ing boomerangs and just keep coming back. get a life.

  16. thanks Andy , all good now

    Tom R
    February 28, 2013
    I dare say that’s a good reason Korea got it cheap
    The main reason Korea got there’s ‘cheap’ Ricky was because all of their infrastructure was already there. The didn’t have to lay fibre anywhere, just plug some connections at the premises

    Wow just like that aye pfffttt magic , Who was the contractor Harry Potter?

    I see Melbourne Toms still obsessed with the cost of shovel leaning unionists and the fact that we are a small population. Did it ever strike you that telecommunications infrastructure has not recovered from deregulation, privitisation and the abolition of cross subsidisation? , Australia is a shit house piece of realestate to own a telecommunications network.

  17. ToM, you keep talking about cost. Have you taken into account “opportunity cost?” That is, the cost of not spending the money.

  18. “…and they’re a few of the reasons that NBN costs will have cost overruns.”

    Will have, not having anymore. Please can we borrow that crystal ball you have.

  19. ToM, how many times are we in for repeats.

    ToM. I will once again ask you, what is your point?

  20. Mr. Quigley suggest that maybe there should be a study into what is the best model available at this time.

    Mr. Turnbull ridiculed the man.

    Mr. Turnbull also rejected the challenge, saying that it could not be done before the election.

    I do not know of any public study, where the public is not aware of the information, while it is in progress.

    More likely, both Mr. Quigley and Mr. Turnbull are well aware of what any study would reveal.

    Yes, we are on the right track now.

    Tom, why not address many of the issues many have raise, but you choose to ignore.

  21. Ricky, not too sure South Korea is a low wage country anymore. Like most of Asia, they have a rapidly growing middle class and high technology.workforce.

  22. ToM, you keep talking about cost.

    Oscar Wilde comes to mind there too Migs…

    A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

  23. Wow just like that aye pfffttt magic , Who was the contractor Harry Potter?

    Ricky, Korea have been doing what we should have been doing, building an NBN years ago. What they are doing now is minuscule in comparison to what we have to undertake.

    South Korea first introduced high speed internet in 1998, building its broadband network throughout the late 1990s with a policy designed to deliver 2Mbps for every person in the country.

    Korea is now one of the most connected countries in the world and its broadband network is internationally renowned.

    http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/426682/nbn_vs_world_korean_experience/

  24. It looks like from what I have read and from from someone who was there, is that Quigley is preparing for a change of government. which is highly dubious. I would not pay much mind on what is written in Technology speculator as its 100% owned News limited subsidiary.

  25. Tom we have had Fiber her since 1986. Their nework is predominantly copper with lots of wirless. They use DSlams and ADSL2 just like us. The big fuss is the population density is huge compared tpo us, hense the demand and take up rate is huge. They build lots of gear there so its cheap. Don’t be under the delusion that they are way ahead of us. Our problem is bad political decisions, and stupid legislation like selling Telstra and allowing Optus to install coax cable on light poles using second hand gear from the UK they got cheap because BT were decommissioning it.

  26. Tom I will give you a good example. In the mid 90′s I was the Technical Project Manager for Jtec Telecommunications. We bid for the pay TV tender with a fantastic tech proven tender. We had 2 mbs running over twisted copper pairs , just under 2k’s. Our proposal was to put multiplexers in the street pillar tails and connect them via fiber to the exchange.

    Most metro exchanges were already connected via fiber or close to it. As the copper broke down we would pull fiber into the house and replace it at the pit. We put a black box in each house and viola, scalable fiber to the house.

    We had the capital to do it through our parent company, a 100% owned Australian venture capital company and we were gonna build a big factory in QLD.

    Aussie technology, Aussie labor Aussie profit Aussie jobs.

    What happened, floptus lobbied, got the contract an the rest is 50′s rf cable stung up like Christmas decoration history. Our parent sold us off to Ericsson who closed us down and kept our IP.

    So if we are behind, blame the politicians who sold the goose that laid the golden egg to brag about a surplus.

  27. Tom you obviously don’t have a clue……did you bother to read the article?

    In any event if Howard had not privatised Telstra, Australia would have been much further advanced with optical fibre, having not had to deal with the political and financial crap we have suffered until now. At least here in Armidale NSW we almost have the NBN installed……it will be a tragedy for most of Australia if Abbott and Turnbull are elected to Government in September and attempt to dismantle the NBN program. Fibre to the node is a waste of time and money. Anyone that does not understand this should talk to an IT/ communications expert that does not have a vested interest and knows their business.

    There has been so much misinformation bandied about the NBN it makes one despair.

  28. Well said Ken and entirely right.

    There is plenty of real information out there and I emplore everyone to read stories and comments on the IT specific sites.

    I am in IT (Web Dev with a Gov Dep) and have frequented these sites for years. I have also posted on Turnbulls’ blogs http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/blogs/malcolms-blogs/ , in relation to his bullshit ideas for broadbabnd (wont call it NBN cause theirs is not a true National Broadband Network). On his blogs, I would say 90% of the comments are against their ideal but will they listen, no.

    I emplore people (I understand that a lot of people won’t understand some of what is discussed, niether do I for some of the finer points) to read the truth on the following sites for instance.

    http://delimiter.com.au/ and go back through the archives, heaps of real info there.

    http://www.zdnet.com/topic-nbn/

    http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/142

    http://www.abc.net.au/technology/

  29. Miglo – ToM, you keep talking about cost. Have you taken into account “opportunity cost?” That is, the cost of not spending the money.

    The price of infrastructure is the measure of its public benefit, and without proper financial analysis all that exists if a series of assertions – such as “business wants it”, “it will improve health & education”, “we’re being left behind”. That’s why it was appropriate to have a cost benefit analysis.

    I’ve repeatedly pointed out the international comparison because I suggested that ours was the most expensive in the world by a factor of 5, and received some testing for that. I should have said “a factor of 20+ in many comparable countries (but only 50% more than the trend setting Qatar)”

    …and I’m not simply motivated by the financial impact of government policy, which is why you will notice me commenting quite regularly on social policy such as marriage equality, asylum seekers and indigenous dispossession/culture.

  30. is a series of assertions…”

  31. My bet is if the Howard regime bothered to have vision for an nbn and actually rolled it out, yomm would be shilling the exact opposite of what he does today. So would some of the Lefty`s. Unlike many here, l would not be a flip-flopper and still realize that as we are in the DIGITAL-AGE and need the best DIGITAL-TECH for our nation as a whole. Keep shilling your STONE-AGE beliefs Tom-Melb, on behalf of your STONE-AGE-PARTY.

  32. 730 just makes it up, no proof, no use

    A fact free bottom feeder

  33. Instead of being negative about the NBN read this. It may help ease your mind. ;)

    http://nbnmyths.wordpress.com/

  34. And understand what the majority of people are thinking.

    http://www.nbnpetition.com.au/Stats.aspx

  35. ” A fact free bottom feeder “
    pretty much how the tech community has been describing Mr-Talkbulls nonsense on the nbn yomm

  36. Unfortunately 730, I expect the neysayers to not avail themselves of the facts. They will continue to listen to the LNP and MSM white noise.

  37. the latest crap coming out of Mr-Rabbits mouth yomm, is he wants more schooling/education delivered via internet, but doesn`t want nbn, kind of a retarded out-look on his own plans

  38. Yeah getting back to telling people what they want to hear.

  39. And MSM will probably jump at that and I will bet my aahum that they won’t go to task on him about their LNP NBN stance and how the real NBN will be better for that vision.

  40. andyrob, it also shows the level of shilling and stupidity the LNP are going to, particularly for Limited-News, as all political paries would `gain-for-themselves` being able to run their own youtube type site, and go around the embedded media, direct to the public, without being `filtered` by the embedded media. Time will probably show how silly the anti-nbn mob are, and how little vision they have.

  41. in many comparable countries

    When you say ‘comparable’, I take it you mean in the sense of something like ‘they speak English’, rather than anything communication industry infrastructure related?

  42. ” The price of infrastructure is the measure of its public benefit, and without proper financial analysis all that exists if a series of assertions, “ such as, the war-lords want it.
    .
    So when will your talents be directed towards the F-35, paper-plane waste, for substandard equipment, that was purchased by John-W Howard, without proper process of cabinet/parliament. How many NBNs is that.?

  43. Fine… in many comparable countries listed in the only international report that has been linnked here, the public “investment” is only 1% as much or 5% or only 10%.

    But in the world leading technology hub of Qatar, the public “investment” is about 60% as much as Australia’s!
    ——————

    730 yet again proves he’s a tosser. **Admin, ToM kindly refrain from the personal attacks.

    Ask Miglo to put up a thread about those topics, this one is aout NBN.

  44. Maybe all the NAY SAYERS of the NBN could state why we should not have these benefits, because under a Coalition Government we will not be getting any of this.

    CSIRO focuses research around broadband everywhere

    Under its $40 million Digital Productivity and Services Flagship research initiative, the CSIRO is exploring efficiency opportunities opened up by broadband communications, which it says “will be critical in an era of rising health costs and the budgetary challenges driven by an aging population, pressures on the infrastructure and logistics sectors, and public expectations of governments”.

    “A successful digital economy is essential for Australia’s economic growth and to maintain our international standing,” the agency says.

    http://nbnco.com.au/blog/csiro-focuses-research-around-broadband-everywhere.html

  45. Wonder what the naysayers have to say about this article from the CSIRO, especially all the benefits to the communities around Australia.

    CSIRO focuses research around broadband everywhere

    http://www.nbnco.com.au/blog/csiro-focuses-research-around-broadband-everywhere.html

  46. http://delimiter.com.au/2013/03/01/turnbull-gives-mixed-messages-on-nbn-costbenefit/

    Nice piece. Interesting sumary by Renai.

    Of course, it could be that I’m looking at this the wrong way, and that Turnbull is (as some people have suggested to me privately over the past few weeks) giving a Coalition Government an ‘out’ to avoid canning the NBN project, if enough analysis shows that the project is the right way to go ahead after all.

  47. Try again…

    Very many comparable countries have a public ‘investment’ (ie public risk) of only 1% or 5% or 10% of Australia’s in their broadband infrastructure.

    None have risked/invested anywhere near ours.

    Even the technology ‘trend setter/hub’ of Qatar has risked/invested only about 60% of ours.

    True believers and tossers don’t need to consider things like money.

  48. Yes ToM of Melbourne, according to the report you posted, all of those governments are doing it different, that is why there is a difference, if you would read the report you posted you would see this.

  49. wonder if the skeptics of the NBN have read this story from the CSIRO about the benefits of the NBN.

    http://www.nbnco.com.au/blog/csiro-focuses-research-around-broadband-everywhere.html

  50. There is something about Australia..we, due to our geographical isolation have always needed to be at the forefront of innovation, anything pertaining to communication. I cannot see why it should be different now. Australia needs the best, the fastest..I cannot debate on the least costly because that’s not the point.

  51. Paul, there’s no need to repeat that all the projects are different. Obviously that’s the case.

    But no one else is investing/risking as much of public funds in a big bang change…and it’s highly political. Connecting all those little towns. At what point does it become economically irresponsible? At $20,000 per head in the little town? Or $10k?

    Are you willing to nominate a figure where it stops making sense? Or are you simply committed to installing in little every town (of 2000) regardless of the cost?

    Other countries haven’t chosen to install broadband in every little town. That’s why the spend/risk/invest only 5 or 10% as much as us.

    …and you or Min might nominate the last major government infrastructure project that was delivered on time and on budget.

  52. That is the case tom, you are citing money figures all the time, different countries are investing different amounts of money, different technologies, different population sizes, countries are of different sizes, you are not taking that into account. That is why there are different money figures per population.

    I am not the person you should be asking on what money should be spent, ask the Government.

    Other countries haven’t chosen to install broadband in every little town.

    That’s right tom they haven’t. Just like some countries, the governments are not installing or upgrading broadband in large cities. Private enterprise are installing in large metro areas.

    That is why the investments are different.

  53. ToM, WHEN DOES IT BECOME IRRESPONSIBLE NOT TO BUILD THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THIS COUNTRY NEEDS TO THRIVE.

    Sometimes, it is not whether one can afford something, but whether one can afford not to spend the money.

    This is one of those times. We need this infrastructure, the same way, we need the telegraph poles. later the copper wire, and now fibre to the premises.

    Yes, this wealthy country can afford the best. The maintenance cost alone will make it economical.

    We can have a slightly cheaper patchwork model up front, that will cost many times more to maintain, and will eventually need to be upgraded, or we can spend up front. Tom, that is the real choice.

    It is like building a house with all the mod cons up front. To retrofit later costs mush more.

  54. We have Vodafone, bringing all it operations back from offshore, to Tasmania because of NBNco. That is hundreds of jobs.

    That is only the beginning.

  55. ToM, forget about cost and focus on value.

    Will it help this country grow that all important pie.

  56. yes Tom, this is an investment that will be making money in the future, but if the coalition get there hands on it, it will cost the taxpayers money, just like there direct action climate change policy.

  57. ToM. someone did not get a brainwave to build NBNco, and the next day they went ahead.

    .
    Mr. Howard over a decade or so, came up with I believe off the top of my head, 17 models. All failed.

    Mr, Rudd took a similar model the the elections, and spent much time and effort, putting it into operation.

    It soon became clear, just like Howard;s attempt, it would not work.

    Labor then identified the problem, that was caused by Howard not splitting the two arms of Telstra when he sold it.

    It was also clear that the private sector was not coming to the party.

    Labor went back to the drawing board and began from scratch. Telstra had to be split, the government buying back the worn out copper network. They are using the channeling for the fibre,

    Telstra and all the other ISP are now on a level playing field. This should have occurred when Telstra was sold.

    Yes, it is expensive, but is being built as an investment, if one wants, can be sold off down the track.

    For a little more money, we get top of the range technology.

    Tom, it is not about cost. It is about value.

  58. Interesting, you’re both effectively saying – build NBN at any cost – we want only the best of the best. So even if Australia’s is by far the most expensive in the world in actual $$$$ and as measured per household. It is many, many times (5x, 10x, 20x 100x) the level of the public risk compared with anywhere else*

    However, compare the attitude re cost of NBN to that applied to power supply. Arguably unreliable power supply is a greater risk to public safety and economic prosperity than the lack of fast internet.

    But Gillard and the ALP are critical of the built in redundancy in power supply – which is precision planning and engineering to ensure high levels of reliable energy supplies.

    Gillard disparagingly calls this “gold plating”.

    But meanwhile she plans the expensive gold plated version of broadband. Each year people die (mainly the elderly) because unreliable power and failure. But Gillard is wiling to risk a reduction in reliability.

    But the ALP will have broadband to the little towns, regardless of the cost, and propose a less reliable power system.

    It’s a matter of priorities, which $$$$ helps determine..

    *though it is merely 60% more than the technology hub of Qatar – known for their restraint in all things related to expenditure.

  59. No, ToM, I do not believe anyone is asying build it at any cost.

    I believe they are saying this model wil do the job the best.

    They are daying NBNco will give value for the money spent.

    Better value than any slightly cheaper patch work model, that will have to be upgraded to fibre to the premises at a later date.

    This model will do the job from day one, and will meet the future needs for most of this century.

    .
    This model will be up to 47 times cheaper to maintain than one hooked onto worn out copper wire.

    Tom, it is about value for money, in the long term.

  60. It is about the one that does the job best. It is not about gold plating.

    NBNco does the job best now. NBNco as it is now, will meeet the needs of the future.

    A patchwork may meet todays needs. It will be lucky to meet the needs of even 2018, let alone the rest of the century.

    ToM, I do not know how I can say it any simpler.

  61. Mr Abbott wants to see universities do more online (which they are already doing). Obviously a cost savings measure, but at what cost to the quality of the education, especially since he wants to downgrade the NBN. What worries me is that such a large percentage of Australia’s population hasn’t woken up (as yet) to what a potential disaster it will be, should the LNP obtain Government in September.

  62. ToM, this is what gold plating is about,

    Electricity companies won’t be able to profit from over investing in their poles and wires under tough new rules proposed by the Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC).

    Skyrocketing transmission and distribution network costs have been the single biggest contributor to electricity price rises in recent years.

    Not what you said

    However, compare the attitude re cost of NBN to that applied to power supply. Arguably unreliable power supply is a greater risk to public safety and economic prosperity than the lack of fast internet.

    But Gillard and the ALP are critical of the built in redundancy in power supply – which is precision planning and engineering to ensure high levels of reliable energy supplies.

    Gold Plating is to stop Electricity companies Profiting from over investing in poles and wires. It does not stop the companies from precision planning and engineering to ensure high levels of reliable energy supplies.

  63. Links to stories on gold plating tom, read for yourself.

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/goldplating-of-electric-assets-to-end-20120823-24ov2.html

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/goldplating-the-power-grid-20120705-21iv5.html

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/alliance-calls-for-caps-on-electricity-gold-plating-20121029-28eel.html

    ToM, Gold Plating is about unnecessary spending by electricity companies, where as the NBN is about building infrastructure for future needs.

  64. Really Paul? A couple of years ago we had 150+ people killed in bushfires. A royal commission found a cause was the decaying power distribution infrastructure. Each year we have serious black outs due to distribution failure, disrupting production, communications and often resulting in the death of elderly people.

    But apparently it’s ‘gold plated’ and that’s bad.

    Meanwhile, we want the best of the best for internet speed, and its cost really isn’t the issue.

  65. An exhaustive analysis from the ABC of the vast differences between the NBN and the coalition’s “alternative”.

    The Coalition’s NBN alternative is different by almost every measure. It uses different technologies to connect the bulk of the country; it has different uses and applications; it affects Australia’s health service differently; it provides different levels of support in emergencies and natural disasters; it requires a different amount of power to operate; the cost of maintenance is different; the overall cost, the return on investment and the re-sale value are different; the management, ownership, governance, competition and monopoly factors will be different; it has a different life-span and upgradability issues; the effect on businesses (of all sizes) and GDP is different; the effects on television are different; the effect on Senior Citizens is different; the viability and potential for cost blowouts is different; the costs of buying broadband will be different; the reliability is different; the effect on property prices will be different; the timescale is different; the legacy is different. Ultimately, it has completely different aims.

    In just about every case the Coalition’s alternative compares unfavourably to the current plans – and usually in dramatic fashion. That’s based upon the facts and the information currently available in the public domain.

    (my bold)

  66. ToM, this is what I said,

    ToM, Gold Plating is about unnecessary spending by electricity companies, where as the NBN is about building infrastructure for future needs.

    and this tom

    Electricity companies won’t be able to profit from over investing in their poles and wires

    Unnecessary spending, it does not mean underspending or no spending. It means spending the money the right way.

  67. Just tell me Paul, if currently we’re not even spending enough to prevent bush fires (resulting in 150+ deaths), loss of communications and production, loss of life in the elderly…how much do you propose to save in declining to build power infrastructure?

    Having power distribution infrastructure in the decaying state we have, is apparently “gold plated”

    Meanwhile, investing/risking/spending 100x, 20x 10x, 5x* as much as other governments on internet speed, is essential.

    (*other than Qatar – the hub of technology and restraint)

  68. It appears that it matters not what this PM does.

    It appears they are not interested in how good the economy. They care less aboiut what the PM has achieved.

    It appears they are not interested in looking at Mr. Abbott or what he would do in government.

    Appears they are not interestest in good governance.

    The only thing that matters, is the perception that this is a bad PM. Not interested in checking if that is correct.

    Well it seems an extensive study of the area is identifying this as the reason for car low numbers in the poll.

    This is what I heard this morning on ABC radio news.

    This is what I have been saying for weeks. The voter is willing to vote this PM out of personal dislike, or hate in many cases.

    They are willing to vote Mr. Abbott in on their personal antipathy to the PM. We know when we look at the facts, at how the economy is travelling

    It is not on her policy to get things done. It is not in her ability to introduce and pass good policy.

    It is not in her ability to lead a stable, minority government.
    It is not on her guts, or the ability to cope with all that is aimed at her.

    One can only believe that bad perception of the PM is based on her being a unmarried woman living in sin, that happens to be an atheist.

    I would hate to think it was only because she was a woman.

    I find it hard top believe that there are so many that fo bot, or do not bother to look at what a person has achieved, before voting her out.

    Has this country reached the lowest stage where we judge another, not on what they have done, but on our personal, narrow minded dislike of them.

    If so, many are going to learn, in a hard way, this is not the way to cast a vote. They will surley reap what they sow.

    NPC repeat Glyn Davis Uni rep

    giving this n message out,

  69. “cause was the decaying power distribution infrastructure. Each year we have serious black outs due to distribution failure, disrupting production, communications and often resulting in the death of elderly people.

    A decaying, copper wire will deliever the same result. That is what fibre to the node means. You hook it onto a decaying, worn out, past it’s use by date copper wire.

  70. iT IS LIKE BUILDING A TWO LANE ROAD OR TUNNEL WHEN WE KNOW IN A DECADE, WE WILL NEED THREE OR MORE LANES.

  71. It is not about building the best, gold plated or not.

    It is about not building an inferior model, that will not meet ongoing needs.

    What is so hard to ubnderstand about that.

    Maybe those who are now saying it is gold plated, can tell us what they mean.

    To me, that is building what never will be needed.

  72. ToM, are not the power and Poles under state control or owned by private companies, so you should be asking the state governments and Private companies, why they are not investing the money wisely.

  73. My god tom the troll is on again.

    We were talking NBN, now we have bushfires, electricity. what the. Stick to the subject.

    It is a 10 year project equating to only about 4billion a year which WILL be paid back. In my area (Gungahlin) people are signing up in droves and what I am reading on whirlpool, at the top speed (these are real people not just empty retoric from MSM or LNP). You do know that the forcasts were based on the lowest speed, and in what I read most are getting the highest speed, which means the NBN may well be able to pay their loan back quicker.

    The NBN in its current state IS the best way forward for this country. Read some god damb facts instead of just listening to LNP and MSM crap.

  74. pterosaur1 that is an excellent article and Tom of Mexico, I suggest you read and digest that article carefully. Our Copper network was aging in the 80′s…its 2013. This opposition bullshit claim is based upon an infrastructure that is well and truly past its use by date and functionality.Copper has a physical limitation of transmission not the theoretical speeds claimed by the software algorithm of the protocol.

    Your obsession with money shows a lack of vision, we cannot afford to build the NBN.

    andy…well said.

  75. Also guys please accept my apologies for not updating quickly, I’m in and out of doctors at the moment pending my heart surgery and the WP app on my phone is flaky….Ricky

  76. And if someone were to die because of cost cutting on NBN safety, Tom would amongst the first in line to point the finger and compare it to the Pink Batts roll out.

  77. Ooooh nasty, Good luck Ricky, hope it is a quick recovery.

    This is a good piece

    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/02/21/hfc-the-steam-train-of-broadband-says-budde/

  78. Tom has been whingeing about the cost of the NBN. If Howard and Costello had not have privatised Telstra there would have been no need for the NBN. Instead we have had higher landline costs imposed on us after that money was stolen from telephone subscribers. The NBN has been costed at less than what the Futures Fund (retirement benefits for politicians and public servants) received from the Telstra privatisation. So it is NOT costing the taxpayer anything…it is money telephone subscribers have invested in the PMG, Telecom come Telstra over many years.
    I don’t know why you have been rabbiting on about high labour costs, unions etc. most of the work I have seen done around Armidale has been done by contractors.
    If Abbott and co. get the chance to destroy the good work in setting up the NBN they will go down as the most backward group of pond scum to get their filthy hands on Federal Government.

  79. Here’s the link to Part 2 of Nick Ross’ exhaustive analysis of the NBN and the coalition’s alternative.
    CONCLUSIONS

    What’s most important, however, is that the fundamental aims of the Coalition’s policy don’t appear to be possible. The technology and governance minefield ahead of it needs a detailed map that navigates all the hurdles mentioned above in order for the following statement to ring true:

    “Our broadband policy is to complete the national broadband network, but to do so sooner, cheaper – less cost to the taxpayer – and much more affordably for consumers and that is our plan.”

    What’s most important, however, is that the fundamental aims of the Coalition’s policy don’t appear to be possible. The technology and governance minefield ahead of it needs a detailed map that navigates all the hurdles mentioned above in order for the following statement to ring true:

    “Our broadband policy is to complete the national broadband network, but to do so sooner, cheaper – less cost to the taxpayer – and much more affordably for consumers and that is our plan.”

    It’s not 100 per cent impossible, but based on the available information, it seems like it.
    (my bold)

  80. :oops: sorry about that. :oops:

  81. Ken Brown said ” I don’t know why you have been rabbiting on about high labour costs, unions etc. most of the work I have seen done around Armidale has been done by contractors.

    Ken, who did you think would be doing the work? NBN? They don’t employ people that work, only bureaucrats.

    Of course contractors perform the work, Armidale was one to the test sites.

    Unions went easy on the test sites, they didn’t make any claims they didn’t create any safety issues.

    Once the test sites were complete and the program was locked in they started to roll out their claims. So if you do a little research, you will find that since then there are a range of agreements signed specifically for NBN work and they offer higher wages and shorter hours than applied under the Telstra conditions, or applied on the test sites.

    So perhaps do a little contemporary research.

  82. Tom, so what. You seem obsessed with money.

    Do not you know, one can pay higher wages and get more work from their employees.

    I think you might find bosses that are lousy with wages, generally have lousy workers, They also have lousy productivity from those workers.

    Clever bosses make clever agreements with their employees.

    The greatest productivity growth this country has seen was in the days of the Accord. When Unions, Bosses and workerts pulled together.

    Sorry, ToM. Not many share your hate of unions. You base your prejudices on what happened to you a life time away

    This is 2013, 1913.

    One of the great things that happened, during the GFC was the fact that bosses, workers and unions got together to help keep people in jobs.

    Workers gave up benefits to keep themselves in work. Yes, they agreed to shorter hours and other things.

    Yes ToM, there have been bad unions and bad union officials. There have also been many good ones.

    Oh, and there have been many bad, crooked and corrupt bosses and firms.

  83. Oh, HIC comes to mind straight away. Led to a royal commission. No, there are never any bad business owners. hahaha.

    What about Howard bailing out his brother’s company.

    oh stop it I am going blind.

  84. Who did they trap in the bottom of the harbour schemes when they went after the Painters and Dockers.

    It is my belief, where one finds corrupt union officials or unions, one will find corrupt bosses or companies.

    That seems to be the case in the ancient AWU allegations. Slush funds that come from employers, in return for special favours, that give them an advantage over their competitors.. Well that’s what the allegations seem to indicate.

  85. Did not the investigations into the building industry find few unioists, but plenty of employers.

    Yes, there are always rumours, but not many that are ever proved.

  86. Here is a great NBN Storyhttp://australiansforhonestpolitics.wordpress.com/2013/03/03/jack-mccaws-nbn-story

  87. mmmmmm. I am sure there is no question to be answered here about insider trading. Of course he had no knowledge about a pending government move to FTTP that the company he invested in will probably pick up some huge contracts.

    Call me cynical but ……..

    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/03/04/ftth-the-best-solution-says-french-it-minister

  88. My god Turnbull at it again on Hadley’s show…..

    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/03/06/turnbull-to-reveal-the-shocking-nbn-truth

    hahahaha, shocking truth on a shock jock’s show…

  89. People of Malcom Turnbull’s own ilk have long known about his character. As Kerry Packer once said after a court dispute….”never stand between Malcolm Turnbull and a bucket of money.”

  90. Now media watch is looking at the NBN and the ABC’s Nick Ross article http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2013/02/21/3695094.htm

    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/03/11/nbn-on-media-watch-tonight/

    I hope they also look at the lack of balance from the MSM on the NBN.

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